Mini Normal 2279: VGSR - GAME OVER

[Frogsterking]

I'm going to be posting my survey start asap. I'm hoping to get participation from as many players as possible.

[Frogsterking]

Frog's Strategy

1) Post survey start

2) Town Read Eiralax and Greeting

3) ???

[Frogsterking]

I don't really have a feeling about hoppip. Maybe I will later, idk.

Why bring it up then?

[Frogsterking]

Inutile and Asuka both townlocked.

[Frogsterking]

i would rather this not continue to detract from us finding mafias

Oh it will.

You've both helped me though, so it balances out.

[Frogsterking]

hmm

VOTE: inutile

can you at least do whatever it is you would do to sort me as it feels like the extent of your scumread if you're town is simply that i do not communicate effectively which is obvious and i would rather this not continue to detract from us finding mafias

I think 22 is weird considering you say you're not scumreading me - tonally it doesn't sit right with me, especially the double exclamation points

What mafias should I be looking at right now instead?

Inutile and Asuka both townlocked.

Why?

It's called elimination by pathing. If the scum team can't figure out what I'm doing they're going to have to kill me.

[Frogsterking]

hmm

VOTE: inutile

can you at least do whatever it is you would do to sort me as it feels like the extent of your scumread if you're town is simply that i do not communicate effectively which is obvious and i would rather this not continue to detract from us finding mafias

I think 22 is weird considering you say you're not scumreading me - tonally it doesn't sit right with me, especially the double exclamation points

What mafias should I be looking at right now instead?

Inutile and Asuka both townlocked.

Why?

It's called elimination by pathing. If the scum team can't figure out what I'm doing they're going to have to kill me.

Also Asuka, the irony in your statement about the mafias is that there is 1 scum who is findable already. You didn't notice them because you were distracted by your fight with inutile. You and inutile are fighting because you're both Town and you both have conviction in your right to be here.

[Frogsterking]

Maybe townlock Ghandi too tbh.

[Frogsterking]

You seem to have this idea in your head that I'm tunneled

You're the only one who said anything about being tunneled, I just said you were Town. You can't say I've implied you have bad reads either because I'm trusting your read on Ghandi.

[Frogsterking]

Hi, man's town n that.

HEY if you're going to play while possessed then sign up with your demon as a hydra like the rest of us do

[Frogsterking]

You seem to have this idea in your head that I'm tunneled

You're the only one who said anything about being tunneled, I just said you were Town. You can't say I've implied you have bad reads either because I'm trusting your read on Ghandi.

I mean, you said I didn't notice your read because I was distracted by fighting with inutile. That seems to imply my read with inutile is distracting me from reading other players somehow. I am suggesting that your scumread is not that obvious and you should talk about it because there's no use in being vague about that information.

I actually think you've got me here and that everything you're saying in 53 is true.

I have three reasons mainly for not outing the scum slot yet:

• I want them to post more before they become alarmed so that it will be easier to look for their partners on later days.
  
  I want them to participate in my survey start and if I out my scum read on them first they probably won't want to do that.
  
  I want to give other players a chance to find them without me spoiling it.

I can tell you that I'm pretty sure I'm using spatial working memory to identify where to look rather than verbal working memory.

[Frogsterking]

Civ VI.

What a game.

Might read up soon and place a serious vote.

Who knows.

YES

[Frogsterking]

Yall sus as fuck

You didn't read the thread

[Frogsterking]

Words of a sus boy

Exactly

[Frogsterking]

I'm going to be posting my survey start asap. I'm hoping to get participation from as many players as possible.

First survey: should we use the word "nuke" instead of "eliminate"? Yay or Nay?

I will add this question to the survey.

[Frogsterking]

Please do elaborate on your Inutile townread. Are you like super familiar playing with them? I couldn't even comprehend what they were trying to say, not to mention trying to read them - best I could come up with was they were flabbergasted from wolf stress. That is, until their "I wasn't trying to look town that much" which I think has a chance of being a slip.

I have never played with Inutile. I believe Inutile is Town because of their fight with Asuka. Scum are rarely going to square off like that at the beginning of the game.

I couldn't understand what Inutile was trying to communicate either. All I could tell is that it seemed like they were trying very hard to communicate something and their message was important to them. That's the gist of why I Townread them.

[Frogsterking]

Mohab are lock town,

Explain please.

[Frogsterking]

@Asuka

I think there are 2 findable scum now who have posted in the thread. The third one is probably Greeting.

[Frogsterking]

@Ghandi

Spoiler:

What does this mean?

oh i was asking if you had/have a feeling because i might have had/currently have a feeling

but not alignment related, so! more a wondering aloud

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

was saying it felt like a sort of

like

"this is how to post at the beginning of the game" thing

like especially the first post is textbook "how to rvs"

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

though i am now kinda curious what else you could have thought i was trying to say there (also to me i am simply saying it not trying to say but i understand that i am often unclear and am happy to clarify)

Ok, am I mafia?

i mean, you could be??

i wasn't saying that out of context i was thinking about the question you were asked about your opener and your response to it

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

though i am now kinda curious what else you could have thought i was trying to say there (also to me i am simply saying it not trying to say but i understand that i am often unclear and am happy to clarify)

I didn't really know. I mean, I think talking about my opener being textbook RVS seems somewhat nonsensical? It's the very start of the game, there aren't many options.

I don't really have a feeling about hoppip. Maybe I will later, idk.

Pedit: I'm trying to ask, like, what are you getting at with what you're saying? Were you just narrating my play?

you made very common opener, which you were aware of and said when asked, i guess i was thinking through the noteworthiness of nuclear gandhi's questioning of it and your response to it

shrug

i guess i don't really understand as it still kinda feels like you're just doing the engagement thing with me but that's more player indicative and not alignment indicative so

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

though i am now kinda curious what else you could have thought i was trying to say there (also to me i am simply saying it not trying to say but i understand that i am often unclear and am happy to clarify)

I didn't really know. I mean, I think talking about my opener being textbook RVS seems somewhat nonsensical? It's the very start of the game, there aren't many options.

I don't really have a feeling about hoppip. Maybe I will later, idk.

Pedit: I'm trying to ask, like, what are you getting at with what you're saying? Were you just narrating my play?

you made very common opener, which you were aware of and said when asked, i guess i was thinking through the noteworthiness of nuclear gandhi's questioning of it and your response to it

shrug

i guess i don't really understand as it still kinda feels like you're just doing the engagement thing with me but that's more player indicative and not alignment indicative so

like it's not like i thought

"and now i will narrate ausuka's play"

but if you want to describe my posting that way you probable can it's not not applicable ya know

[Frogsterking]

Bonsoir i be Eiralox and im here for the synth apocalypse.

Frogster and Mohab are lock town, we won't be voting there.

VOTE: Nuclear Ghandi

this is scum. guillotine asap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaGAk07qgf8

Hi.

VOTE: Nuclear Gandhi

Eir and Greeting sittin' in a hood

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Ghandi

Don't worry Ghandi, I'll still include your question about the Nuke in my survey.

[Frogsterking]

Bonsoir i be Eiralox and im here for the synth apocalypse.

Frogster and Mohab are lock town, we won't be voting there.

VOTE: Nuclear Ghandi

this is scum. guillotine asap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaGAk07qgf8

Hi.

VOTE: Nuclear Gandhi

Eir and Greeting sittin' in a hood

I still have two scum reads other than Ghandi FYI.

[Frogsterking]

We see it so opposite, clearly one has to be wrong.

Not really.

[Frogsterking]

@Asuka

I think there are 2 findable scum now who have posted in the thread. The third one is probably

Greeting

Ghandi.

[Frogsterking]

furtiveglance townlocked

[Frogsterking]

I had this one improv teacher who was pretty cool who taught us that the hardest lesson in improv is to learn to accept gifts.

[Frogsterking]

I had this one improv teacher who was pretty cool who taught us that the hardest lesson in improv is to learn to accept gifts.

Why are you scumreading Ghandhi? Bit of a non-sequitur I know but I don't want to get into your improv stuff.

It's okay, the improv stuff was for Asuka primarily rather than for you.

Once I saw Eir and Greeting both voted Ghandi I interpreted that as a sign that something was wrong. I reflected on why they may have done that. I realized that Ghandi is attempting to aggressively manipulate as many players as possible and that my initial Townread on them was naive. I believe Ghandi is either a manipulative Townie or a scum slot. In other words, I don't trust Ghandi regardless of their alignment, and I believe their alignment in this case may be scum, because even though it may be NAI for them to be manipulative, the way they're being manipulative in this game doesn't help them to collect AI information about other players.

[Frogsterking]

Do you think you have been that townie?

Yes.

[Frogsterking]

Why do Eir and Greeting influence your read here? They've barely done anything.

Can you show examples of Ghandi being manipulative please?

As for the first question, I'm pretty confident they have reads that are significantly better than most players and I'm hoping to take advantage of this to get a bigger and more accurate town core set up. I'm applying meta knowledge, it has nothing to do with anything they've done in this game.

And for the second question, if you can't read Ghandi's iso and see the intent to manipulate then no I can't help you sorry.

[Frogsterking]

I'm already leaning Town on hutmeil and BBT.

[Frogsterking]

And for the second question, if you can't read Ghandi's iso and see the intent to manipulate then no I can't help you sorry.

I mean I'm willing to try, BBT. My condition is that I want you to choose something more specific from Ghandi's iso for me to talk about.

[Frogsterking]

But both Eir and Greeting have produced very little and you appear to just believe both are town and I'm wondering what's enabled you to get those reads?

I mean, you're saying he is being manipulative and I'm just asking you to show it? Why is that so difficult?

Wisdom bomb:

“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces”

Matthew 7:6

Do what I said or I won't explain ANYTHING to you.

[Frogsterking]

I believe this might clear up how I'm reading some things: I believe Gandhi is manipulative because they're charismatic. I realize now I'm probably projecting a lot of other negative qualities that aren't there onto Gandhi because of my cynicism. For example I started to believe that the LHF or mislim bait qualities were a deception, and now I realize that it's unlikely Gandhi is faking those qualities.

That being said, I only partially agree with furtiveglance about the classification of Gandhi as mislim bait/LHF. I agree that those qualities are there, however, I also believe Gandhi shouldn't be classified that way because they're significantly more charismatic than those slots usually are, and that makes Gandhi more potentially dangerous as either alignment.

[Frogsterking]

@Ghandi

Spoiler:

What does this mean?

oh i was asking if you had/have a feeling because i might have had/currently have a feeling

but not alignment related, so! more a wondering aloud

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

was saying it felt like a sort of

like

"this is how to post at the beginning of the game" thing

like especially the first post is textbook "how to rvs"

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

though i am now kinda curious what else you could have thought i was trying to say there

(also to me i am simply saying it not trying to say but i understand that i am often unclear and am happy to clarify)

Ok, am I mafia?

i mean, you could be??

i wasn't saying that out of context i was thinking about the question you were asked about your opener and your response to it

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

though i am now kinda curious what else you could have thought i was trying to say there (also to me i am simply saying it not trying to say but i understand that i am often unclear and am happy to clarify)

I didn't really know. I mean, I think talking about my opener being textbook RVS seems somewhat nonsensical? It's the very start of the game, there aren't many options.

I don't really have a feeling about hoppip. Maybe I will later, idk.

Pedit: I'm trying to ask, like, what are you getting at with what you're saying? Were you just narrating my play?

you made very common opener, which you were aware of and said when asked

,

i guess i was thinking through the noteworthiness of nuclear gandhi's questioning of it and your response to it

shrug

i guess i don't really understand as it still kinda feels like you're just doing the engagement thing with me but that's more player indicative and not alignment indicative so

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

though i am now kinda curious what else you could have thought i was trying to say there (also to me i am simply saying it not trying to say but i understand that i am often unclear and am happy to clarify)

I didn't really know. I mean, I think talking about my opener being textbook RVS seems somewhat nonsensical? It's the very start of the game, there aren't many options.

I don't really have a feeling about hoppip. Maybe I will later, idk.

Pedit: I'm trying to ask, like, what are you getting at with what you're saying? Were you just narrating my play?

you made very common opener, which you were aware of and said when asked, i guess i was thinking through the noteworthiness of nuclear gandhi's questioning of it and your response to it

shrug

i guess i don't really understand as it still kinda feels like you're just doing the engagement thing with me but that's more player indicative and not alignment indicative so

like it's not like i thought

"and now i will narrate ausuka's play"

but if you want to describe my posting that way you probable can it's not not applicable ya know

Let me colorize how I see their posts (look in your spoiler in the quote of this post):

Neutral

- Just neutral commentary.

Active

- Aggressive, Confrontational, "Fighting" as you called it. Lacking the word for it, but simply put the opposite of Defensive.

Defensive

- Trying to defuse the situation (attention away from them)

Neutral/Defensive

Neutral/Active

I see most of what you quoted bordering between neutral commentary and trying to defuse the situation in a "nothing to see here" sense.
I sincerely don't see the "fighting" that you see in the inutile's posts which you quoted.
We can agree to disagree, but perhaps you can color the same way as I did the same posts you quoted, or alternatively describe in your own words why the quotes you posted felt like "fighting" to you? We see it so opposite, clearly one has to be wrong.

This argument is semantic. I don't care how you qualify inutile's words. Their willingness to engage in a dialogue with Ausuka, whatever you want to call it, is what I'm Townreading them for. They obviously didn't want to defuse the situation that much because they remained in the thread responding to Ausuka. If they wanted to disappear they could have just lurked out.

I also have a limited tolerance for posts like 112 because they indicate that you're more concerned with micromanaging your self image than you are with correctly identifying who is Town and who is scum.

[Frogsterking]

@furtiveglance

I should have @ 193 to you as well for clarity's sake, I had you and your Gandhi read in mind when I wrote it.

I also wanted to say that the reason BBT is more aggressive than you about the Ghandi read is because of this interaction:

Can you show examples of Ghandi being manipulative please?

I mean, you're saying he is being manipulative and I'm just asking you to show it? Why is that so difficult?

BBT seems more reckless about how they are connecting themselves with the Gandhi slot. The point Eir was making is that you're taking a more conscientious approach with your Gandhi read. I think it's NAI for you because you're taking a more conscientious approach to a lot of things, and at the same time I can see the solving intent behind Eir's read and I also agree that there is danger of townreading Gandhi too quickly.

[Frogsterking]

Mohab, can you please elaborate on your town read of Delta?

[Frogsterking]

Delta, are you still RVS voting?

[Frogsterking]

Delta, are you still RVS voting?

i never RVS.

Okay: inutile isn't going through today. You said you scum read juice and BBT, so of those two, who do you prefer to lim D1?

[Frogsterking]

I'm going to puke if my solve is correct. I'm most willing to reassess on Gandhi.

[Frogsterking]

@

a lot of players

It's Gandhi not Ghandi.

(also it's inutile not intuile +)

That's my bad I'm pretty sure I started that trend

[Frogsterking]

Ego

[Frogsterking]

im sorry im a bit of a tipsy lazy reader today. what xactly is ur solve? excluding gandhi, let's assume they are tovn for this experiment, vhich 3 slots vould u say are scum?

I haven't outed my other 2 scumreads yet in an effort not to alarm them. My plan is to explain all of my reads after I get replies from my survey. I've been procrastinating posting my survey.

[Frogsterking]

Do you still think furtive is scum? From my point of view your interaction looks quite a bit TvT.

[Frogsterking]

someone scum reads me for my RVS - ROFLCOPTER

This is a clear indicator to me that my first solve was wrong.

[Frogsterking]

@Delta

@hutmeil

@BBT

What do you make of 237?

[Frogsterking]

Gandhi's not coming back lol

Gandhi was scum's savior and they got SHUT DOWN

[Frogsterking]

I think like several people in this game are sincerely arguing teamsolves in early d1 and I just do not get it.

Can you elaborate on this? Eir mentioned a partnered tell, I've implied I have a team solve, who else are you referring to?

[Frogsterking]

You, eiralox, and Delta have all been doing it quite a lot iirc

Okay and why bring it up?

[Frogsterking]

You, eiralox, and Delta have all been doing it quite a lot iirc

Okay and why bring it up?

Because I think pushing teamsolves on day 1 is a bad idea and is pretty likely to misdirect our attention. Talk of associatives now is just noise. I think this is a pretty obvious answer, what are you hoping to get out of this line of questioning?

I'm hoping to get AI information. It seemed like you were holding something back so I asked you questions.

[Frogsterking]

I think like

several people

in this game are sincerely arguing teamsolves in early d1 and

I just do not get it.

Delta could you elaborate on the furtive read

You, eiralox, and Delta

have all been doing it quite a lot iirc

I'm hoping to get AI information.

It seemed like you were holding something back

so I asked you questions.

What exactly about me thinking

it's a bad idea to gamesolve on day 1

have you that impression? These questions kind of feel like posting for the sake of posting honestly

[Frogsterking]

"I want Frog, Delta and Eir to stop introducing the idea of a team solve because it makes it easier for scum to misdirect the conversation"

is a different post from what you wrote in 257 and the difference is AI. I asked you questions to establish why you might write an abomination like 257 if you're Town. If you don't want me to ask you annoying questions then bother to mention who you're talking about and why. End of discussion.

[Frogsterking]

Objection your honor; they're leading the witness.

Like hmm who could this post about several people making teamsolves in the thread be about??? Maybe the people who have been doing that repetitively, in this thread, open for everyone to read

Do you think it's fake confusion? Or do you think they're playing dumb?

[Frogsterking]

like i still don’t really understand where this survey thing is going

thought it was going to be one of those like

‘how much experience do you have playing mafia?’

No it's much better than that.

[Frogsterking]

and the connections you’re making harder to follow

Your posts are difficult to follow so glass houses. I still think you're Town and have a tendency to make good points. I accept that I have to work a little bit harder to understand what you're saying than I do with most other players. I prefer you reciprocate that attitude toward my slot.

[Frogsterking]

something you planned on doing before the game started (regardless of alignment?)?

Yes.

[Frogsterking]

at some point you said something about ausuka maybe having more that they weren’t saying

and your expectation that that be stated kinda weird since you’re playing the ‘i have a secret read game’

which is like

either your read is worth sharing and should be shared

There's a significant amount of content that I'm holding back. I have an overactive imagination which is a double edged sword, and I don't think all of my ideas are worth sharing. I also think sometimes it's better to let things play out.

I mentioned my reads because I was excited about them because I think I have a good grasp on this game. I also believe it's best not to share them at this time in order to avoid the effects of

response bias

. My intention is to play significantly more forthcoming in the last half of D1 and beyond.

[Frogsterking]

like for some things there can be implied reasoning but some of your ‘x is town/scum’ type of statements it is like, i am not and would not like to be a mind reader

or the 'ausuka there are findable scums posting' type of thing

it is like, unless your purpose was to specifically see what ausuka would come back with, hard to see i guess

Yeah I wanted to see what Ausuka would come back. Same when I questioned Ausuka in 257 about the meaning behind 257.

Though, earlier when I tried to get them to look at other players in the thread I was more curious what they would find. In contrast, when I was questioning them about 257 I was more suspicious because I thought 257 could be shade disguised as idle commentary.

[Frogsterking]

Yeah I wanted to see what Ausuka would come back. Same when I questioned Ausuka in 257 about the meaning behind 257.

Lmao: I'm tired.

When I questioned Ausuka from 257 to 278, I was suspicious about their motivation behind posting 257 in the first place.

[Frogsterking]

and the connections you’re making harder to follow

Your posts are difficult to follow so glass houses. I still think you're Town and have a tendency to make good points. I accept that I have to work a little bit harder to understand what you're saying than I do with most other players. I prefer you reciprocate that attitude toward my slot.

i certainly understand that and am willing to put in the work to do so

however the questions i would often like answered to help fill in those dots have already been asked and you refused to answer on more than one occasion

like for some things there can be implied reasoning but some of your ‘x is town/scum’ type of statements it is like, i am not and would not like to be a mind reader

but also understand maybe you are asking for patience and that is something i am trying to be better about

Okay: what was your question?

[Frogsterking]

there's always the 'future content' time traveler

What is that?

[Frogsterking]

who / why with regards to the scumreads mostly

also curious about your expectation of others to elaborate on things but you thinking it's better for you to keep things to yourself

it's like the kinda dissonance that seems maybe not great for solving the game to me but dunno if alignment indicative

Okay I see what you're getting at.

Pretty soon here I'm going to post the survey and then I'm going to post a readslist with explanations and then I don't think this will be an issue for the rest of the game.

The imbalance that I've created in giving and taking information is due to poor execution. I've been procrastinating and it wasn't my intention to drag it out this long. There are some scripts I need to use to score the survey and I'm worried I won't be able to get them to run due to anxiety.

Someone with a credible research background helped me create the survey and I promised them months ago I would use it in games and send them the results. I'm determined to use it in this game. Once I've ran it once I'll have less anxiety about being able to run the scripts and I'll procrastinate less when I post it in future games. I'm sorry it's taken me so long to post it!

I believe the conflict is my fault rather than due to you having a lack of patience. I think it's very reasonable for you to be frustrated with the way I've been playing. FWIW I believe you have interacted with me in very good faith and I appreciate that a lot!

[Frogsterking]

scums are time travelers because they know the solution to the mystery so they are more likely to play in the future rather than the present and often have a plan for how they hope or think things will play out or potentially play out whereas towns are just weighing very most likely mafia right now

like you'll often see this present itself with players saying 'i am going to do this' or 'hold me to this' because they have an expectation of themselves

which isn't an only comes from mafia thing but more often than random would indicate in my experience

...this is super interesting. I've made this Tell before as scum though I was also lurking while I did it. I think that's the AI difference between how I procrastinate.

[Frogsterking]

Like hmm who could this post about several people making teamsolves in the thread be about??? Maybe the people who have been doing that repetitively, in this thread, open for everyone to read

Do you think it's fake confusion? Or do you think they're playing dumb?

I thought last night this was likely because I couldn't understand Frog's thought process at all. Right now I think we view the game so differently that this line of reasoning is probably useless.

Yes and it may get better over time, for example:

Juice is supreme limbait. I don't have any strong evidence that they're town (I suppose play like this is somewhat +town just because if they were scum their partners would probably bully them into not doing this?) but I do agree that pushes there raise eyebrows to some extent.

This is how I'm viewing the Juice slot as well. I call them a red herring, like the rude janitor at the beginning of a Scooby Doo episode. They rarely are the actual culprit.

[Frogsterking]

scums are time travelers because they know the solution to the mystery so they are more likely to play in the future rather than the present and often have a plan for how they hope or think things will play out or potentially play out whereas towns are just weighing very most likely mafia right now

like you'll often see this present itself with players saying 'i am going to do this' or 'hold me to this' because they have an expectation of themselves

which isn't an only comes from mafia thing but more often than random would indicate in my experience

...

this is super interesting. I've made this Tell before as scum though I was also lurking while I did it. I think that's the AI difference between how I procrastinate

.

This is my takeaway here on what Gandhi is doing.

[Frogsterking]

I'm not sure if getting into it with you is the best use of my posts this game.

I'd rather you both didn't I'm pretty sure it's TvT.

[Frogsterking]

There is something called the "Luca Blight tell" which I guess was never added to the wiki. I've been trying to find a link to where Luca explained it themselves.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Juice

I read through one of Luca's isos as Town and I saw enough to indicate that they would take furtiveglance's side here. It seems the Luca Blight tell only applies to situations where we are already very familiar with the player Juice and their meta and we KNOW they play this way as Town. I think it's fair to put the heat on Juice and make it clear we expect them to Town tell in some capacity.

[Frogsterking]

Frogster unvoted you so on that alone i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt

To be clear, I thought Gandhi's post was sketch (in the context of Gandhi now being a lurker slot) and I won't be sad seeing them go D1 or D2. I voted Juice to get them to do anything. I did some research and decided furtiveglance is right about not letting slots like Juice coast by.

[Frogsterking]

Do you have any town reads, Juice?

[Frogsterking]

Juice, is that an intuitive read or did Ausuka do something you townread for?

[Frogsterking]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: DeltaWave

this Penguin is looking for an easy lynch - just because ive been a bit inactive

Ausuka is town for sure.

Juice, is that an intuitive read or did Ausuka do something you townread for?

I could use some elaboration on your process, Juice. If you want me to trust you then the most efficient path is to help me understand you.

[Frogsterking]

UNVOTE: juice

[Frogsterking]

UNVOTE: juice

Nice. I guess townie points for you. I'm still waiting for your survey though.

They call me The Flash hurr hurr

[Frogsterking]

Gandhi's play is almost identical to my first~ scum game I played on this site.

Juice is starting to seem kind of scum frozen to me. Hello? Earth to Juice?

[Frogsterking]

What about Eira's posting made you think he was town from that exchange?

Everything. The uncertainty. I'm pretty sure scum!Eira just lurks out of posting that entire exchange. I think Eira and furtive have different playstyles so it makes sense to me that they both go at it when they're Town.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Gandhi

I slightly prefer Gandhi to Juice. I think both are scummy.

[Frogsterking]

Gandhi is scum again because?

I'm pretty sure you haven't read their iso.

[Frogsterking]

Gandhi is scum again because?

I'm pretty sure you haven't read their iso.

But both Eir and Greeting have produced very little and you appear to just believe both are town and I'm wondering what's enabled you to get those reads?

I mean, you're saying he is being manipulative and I'm just asking you to show it? Why is that so difficult?

Wisdom bomb:

“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces”

Matthew 7:6

Do what I said or I won't explain ANYTHING to you.

[Frogsterking]

Rate each descriptive statement on how well it describes you using the Likert scale (1 = strongly disagree to 5 = strongly agree).

"Get angry easily" =

"Take charge" =

"Make people feel welcome" =

"Like music" =

"Like to tidy up" =

"Like to visit new places" =

"Feel comfortable around people" =

"Interested in many things" =

"Love order and regularity" =

"Am afraid to draw attention to myself" =

"Enjoy being part of a large crowd" =

"Cheer people up" =

"Lose my temper" =

"Enjoy the beauty of nature" =

"Enjoy thinking about things" =

"Cheat to get ahead" =

"Feel desperate" =

"Rarely overindulge" =

"Easily resist temptations" =

"Have a high opinion of myself" =

"Waste my time" =

"Need a push to get started" =

"Have little to contribute" =

"Keep my cool" =

"Avoid crowds" =

"Turn my back on others" =

[Frogsterking]

Who is this referring to again?

You fill it out based on how well each statement describes you. Give each statement a number 1 (strongly disagree) through 5 (strongly agree).

[Frogsterking]

Who is this referring to again?

You fill it out based on how well each statement describes you. Give each statement a number 1 (strongly disagree) to 5 (strongly agree).

EBWOP

[Frogsterking]

Okay I have coffee brewing, I'll get my laptop out and run the scoring scripts after I drink some.

It seems like somebody is just trying to jump on a random wagon to me.

is this not exactly what you did

Yes, it is exactly what I did, but I am not trying to act townie or claim that my votes make sense, while greeting is trying to justify their vote for some clearly bullshit reason.

Ok but why are you not trying to act townie and claim that your votes make sense

I am somewhat lost about what you're doing this game, you don't really seem like a troll but you're not playing normally either

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Mohab is gregarious and the unusual quality of some of their posts is meant to entertain others and break the ice rather than to troll.

[Frogsterking]

I'm definitely coming around to Mohab!Town here.

[Frogsterking]

Yall self-described lurkers should be filling out my survey. It helped me understand Mohab (I think) based some of the categories I can eyeball and I haven't even scored it yet.

[Frogsterking]

i'm not 100% clear on what the survey is supposed to do, tbh

Are you hiding something?

[Frogsterking]

i'm not 100% clear on what the survey is supposed to do, tbh

Are you hiding something?

I mean it takes less than 5 minutes to do and you're playing a game where nothing outside of some mechs is 100% certain.

PEdit:



Technically this survey is measuring 15 of the 30 sub facets of the NEO-IPIP which has better test validity and predictive utility than the Meyers-Briggs

[Frogsterking]

It seems as though I completely misjudged the type of player

furtiveglance

is. I overlooked that furtiveglance is creative because of their style of presentation. Also it appears as though I misjudged their low neuroticism as high conscientiousness which makes sense.

...anyway, I'm seeing some things from

hutmeil

which make me suspicious. 526 pings me hard as being too accommodating. This is something which I've experienced twice before in much larger games coming from scum slots who get eliminated early. 525 is starting to get repetitive. I think the reason it's repetitive is because hutmeil is keen to answer this question wherever it pops up because they have an answer for it. 527 is a little lamist and could be an excuse to get off the Juice wagon.

VOTE: hutmeil

My opinion is that hutmeil is scum who is leaning into aspects of their town game quite effectively and not making a lot of obvious mistakes. I think they failed to anticipate the shift in attitude surrounding the Juice slot and got caught in an awkward position. I feel like this is a big lead for Town and I could use help with critical thinking to make sure I'm not getting confbiased.

[Frogsterking]

Oh boy, that's a few pages back already. Let me check... Ah yes, I townread Furtive because he had the same question I had in mind for Frog. Basically what I'm saying is he had the same mindset as mine (trying to solve an inconsistency). Frog was voting you but townread you at the same time. See post 240

This is the section of 525 I am referencing in 531 as feeling repetitive.

[Frogsterking]

I have a total batshit theory now where the UK/Eastern players are Town and the scum are all hiding in the slots playing in US/Western timezones.

[Frogsterking]

My opinion is that hutmeil is scum who is leaning into aspects of their town game quite effectively and not making a lot of obvious mistakes.

tbh hutmeil feels frozen and if he's town then he's kind of an easy target - I would be surprised that mafia didn't target him in that case

(since afaik nobody was really pushing hutmeil before I did, although I spent some time waiting to see if it would happen)

I feel like this stuff changed things the most:

From where I'm standing juice is town or juice is being bussed hard

Either way I have no desire to end the day here

It's not just juice a lot of people have done nothing. Mohab has done nothing but Wolfy popins and hutmeil's read list was literally just a draft of consensus reads with like no reasoning behind it and he has not done anything really unless someone asked him to

Gandhi has been catching up at a really incredibly slow pace which is like, sure the detail is great and all but there's no reason to still be talking about page 5

Hoppip has done some things to be fair but nothing towny and iirc hasn't been here super recently.

There are definitely town here and unless this contains all 3 or maybe 2 of the scum town will lose this game.

I do think the intent to hammer is just a way to pre-emptively justify getting on the wagon. I also never stated that I thought the juice guy was 100% town, I just don't think this excuse of him popping in and out of the game and saying random shit is a good reason to vote him because that's also exactly what I've been doing and people aren't really wagoning me hard or other people who have literally contributed nothing.

Why would he need to justify getting on the wagon when barely anyone else has? Why is Greeting's intent to hammer any worse than any other vote on the wagon?

You never stated Juice was town, but you imply it by fighting against the wagon. If Juice is town, I would bet either you or Eira are scum. Scum try to avoid this Juice wagon, 100%.

You've also contributed

some

things. Juice has contributed none, there is no comparison to be made.

No, scum don't try to avoid this wagon under traditional circumstances. It's a wagon on a guy who like everybody keeps stating has barely any useful posts. Yes there is risk of being caught as someone just going with the flow and trying to get an easy elimination (if that dude is town), but I'd reckon most people wouldn't think that far and the chances of the entirety of scum being outside this wagon is really, really low imo. I think, from my experience at least, scum tries to get people eliminated somewhat early and they don't prefer longer first days (as longer days, more typing, etc... easier to slip up obviously). Yes there are exceptions but I'd be hard pressed to call this one of them.

Perhaps by fighting against the juice wagon I am 'implying' they're town, but my point is more so how weird the vote looks from my perspective: it may be a scum bussing another scum for townie points or it might be that juice is actually town, I have no clue, because like I said they have barley contributed anything worthwhile. What I do know is that the basis for the vote is nonsensical, that's all.

I wasn't going to push hutmeil until the string of posts 525 526 527 which FMPOV is a reaction to the above content.

[Frogsterking]

Greeting is this a common belief of yours about D1 strategy or is that unique to this game?

[Frogsterking]

UNVOTE: hutmeil

[Frogsterking]

^This. After you've put pressure on me, Frog followed suit with unconvincing reasons just to put a vote on me. Trying to test the water perhaps if anyone else will follow suit?

Yeah I have like 6 scum reads and my reasons for voting you look like confbias, so I'm guessing you were one of the slots I was wrong about.

[Frogsterking]

Greeting
Delta
hoppip
Mapuche
Gandhi

at least 2 scum in here

[Frogsterking]

Greeting
Delta

hoppip

Mapuche
Gandhi

at least 2 scum in here

[Frogsterking]

Mapuche do you scum read anyone on my list

[Frogsterking]

Gandhi doesn’t exactly seem like an aggressive manipulator

I agree I think I was ego projecting

[Frogsterking]

Mapuche do you scum read anyone on my list

Not yet.

Who exactly do you scum read?

[Frogsterking]

Mapuche..you aren't trying to pocket me..are you?

PEDIT:

Well maybe we can agree on Gandhi then.

[Frogsterking]

I'm already leaning Town on hutmeil and BBT.

….hutmeil?
The guy who made 3 posts, one naked RVS vote, and 2 posts explaining that their vote was RVS….?

Don't worry once you finally get to the present you will see me read flip on them

twice

... actually, maybe start worrying.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: nuclear Gandhi

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: nuclear Gandhi

Why

They're playing like Newb!Scum. I would know.

[Frogsterking]

I still want to know why Frog unvoted Gandi to join a smaller Juice wagon while still scum reading Gandhi.

341, 342

3rd time I've asked this

I wanted to find out what would happen and I knew I could change my vote back.

[Frogsterking]

like this is 625. i dont wanna be thinking about 178 at this point.

The past doesn't get invalidated, not for me at least.
Hmm.. did you sin something in the past?

I think what Eiralox is trying to say is that it's difficult to read you when you are only engaging with things that happened early on in the day

I really wanted to make/give my full thoughts for 1 game, but clearly I'm a bit lacking on the time commitment part.
I do feel like I'd be a productive member of society by Day3 or something, so I'd prefer to keep this up as is. What do you think would be the most productive course of action for me? If I read everything and tried to give my summary - I'd forget 80% of what I read and 99% of my thoughts, if I ever would have them.

I think that the most productive use of your time is to read through the game making notes of the most important things, with less depth. Maybe just make private notes so they don't need to be presentable to others. When you're done, you can form reads using all of the information available and make those arguments to others.

But that would defeat the whole purpose because then we couldn't SEE all the deep notes they're taking.

[Frogsterking]

Why did eiralox drop from your scum reads? I thought you were town reading hoppip?

Have you gotten me confused with someone else??? I have been vocally townreading eiralox and scumreading hoppip for a long time

its possible

This is TvT

[Frogsterking]

MHD is feeling town to me. we aren't going to eliminate gandhi.

keeping nero in the likely town pool (doesn't change my inutile read)

i like the greeting wagon. i don't want to vote until we get a VC because idk how close greeting is to hammer.

My biggest issue with the Greeting wagon is that Greeting is V/la so they don't have the ability to adequately defend themselves. I also haven't checked Greeting's meta to see if they normally propose this strategy D1.

Posts like the above are fueling my confbias of a Delta/Gandhi/MHD solve.

[Frogsterking]

Like I have 4 players in my solve right now [greeting, delta, gandhi, MHD] and apparently all 3 of them want to vote the other 1? What? This is jet fuel for conf bias.

[Frogsterking]

Mapuche (MHD) is doing a similar strat as Gandhi right now by the way, just spread out over like 20 posts instead of massive walls.

[Frogsterking]

My experience from reading through a few games I wasn't in and from playing against town!Nero as scum!Frog indicates that Nero has both good read accuracy and a tendency to get sidetracked by TvTs with other active Town players.

[Frogsterking]

Strange vote @ furtiveglance

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: MND

Why

Why not?

It feels like you are active lurking and my vote was partly cast in an attempt to spur you into action. But also thinking back I'm thinking that Juice could maybe have been scum afterall. Like I get that coincidences happen but saying that the RVS just happened to land on someone that was a viable wagon at that point seems a bit iffy to me.

its 2 days and change till deadline and you are still back on p11.

So many are being so useless with their votes.

VOTE: MND

[Frogsterking]

Hoppip what's your actual read on Hutmeil

Same to delta I guess

I think he's like, really blatantly scummy, and do not understand the general lack of attention to him at all

I empathize with your frustration and I think you have a good case for hutmeil on D2. I think there are a lot of scummy slots in this game which is why hutmeil isn't getting much attention. I think MND is miles scummier than hutmeil and I prefer to send MND packing D1.

i unvoted MND earlier but the mod missed it. to be clear, UNVOTE: Mapuche

I want to make a note of this unvote right here. Why?

PEdit:

MND hasn't done anything Town!Indicative. This is a bizarre statement from Delta which sends me further into confbiasing the Delta/Gandhi/MND solve.

[Frogsterking]

That's great Delta. I reread 557 and it's golden. Can you explain why you're fence sitting on at least half of your reads? Also can you clarify the following read into anything that sounds believable?

furtiveglance - i'm pretty sure you're town. i see town reasoning behind a lot of your actions.

[Frogsterking]

PSA:

Unless you want to spend D2 sifting through walls of analysis about page 15 I suggest you kill one of Gandhi or MND to make it stop. Below is the box where you can put requests to give MND more time to catch up since they're a replacement slot.

Spoiler:

no

[Frogsterking]

That's great Delta. I reread 557 and it's golden. Can you explain why you're fence sitting on at least half of your reads? Also can you clarify the following read into anything that sounds believable?

furtiveglance - i'm pretty sure you're town. i see town reasoning behind a lot of your actions.

define "fence sitting" for me

557

[Frogsterking]

Greeting is successfully talking me out of MND and onto Greeting.

[Frogsterking]

UNVOTE: juice

Nice. I guess townie points for you. I'm still waiting for your survey though.

hutmeil votes Juice, then gives Frogster townpoints for unvoting juice

I don't think anyone wants to read this level 0 analysis bullshit. Hutmeil townread my unvote in 403 because it took juice off e-1. Realizing that is like...not even an original take on its own and you missed that point completely. Why bother catching up post-by-post if the given analysis is LESS detailed than someone can muster by skimming the thread and blurting out obvious things?

[Frogsterking]

UNVOTE: juice

Nice. I guess townie points for you. I'm still waiting for your survey though.

hutmeil votes Juice, then gives Frogster townpoints for unvoting juice

I don't think anyone wants to read this level 0 analysis bullshit. Hutmeil townread my unvote in 403 because it took juice off e-1. Realizing that is like...not even an original take on its own and you missed that point completely. Why bother catching up post-by-post if the given analysis is LESS detailed than someone can muster by skimming the thread and blurting out obvious things?

I do get that hutmeil townreads you for taking Juice off E-1. I still think that’s scummy on hutmeil’s side.

So in 733 you're stating that in 707 you intentionally withheld information you were aware of in order to make hutmeil look worse?

[Frogsterking]

Really scummy post - hutmeil tells juice that it’s on them for being scummy and basically just keeps pushing the angle of scum juice

Am I not allowed to push slots who I think is scummy?

I can ask you the same question regarding your comments about my play in 730.

[Frogsterking]

UNVOTE: juice

Nice. I guess townie points for you. I'm still waiting for your survey though.

hutmeil votes Juice, then gives Frogster townpoints for unvoting juice

I don't think anyone wants to read this level 0 analysis bullshit. Hutmeil townread my unvote in 403 because it took juice off e-1. Realizing that is like...not even an original take on its own and you missed that point completely. Why bother catching up post-by-post if the given analysis is LESS detailed than someone can muster by skimming the thread and blurting out obvious things?

I do get that hutmeil townreads you for taking Juice off E-1. I still think that’s scummy on hutmeil’s side.

So in 733 you're stating that in 707 you intentionally withheld information you were aware of in order to make hutmeil look worse?

EBWOP; post link for 707 linked to 703.

[Frogsterking]

@Ausuka

Are you open to the idea that hutmeil's townplay has qualities of people pleasing which is the cause of their scummy appearance in this game?

[Frogsterking]

@Ausuka

Are you open to the idea that hutmeil's townplay has qualities of people pleasing which is the cause of their scummy appearance in this game?

I'd be willing to consider it. I've read his other games to compare, and I don't think his playstyle explains his play here, though. I also think, while people pleasing could explain some of his scummy behaviour, there are other things I scumread that would not be explained by that.

Alright I skimmed the isos. I had some reservations that hutmeil rolled their first TPR, but one hutmeil's completed games was as a mason and that iso looks significantly better than this one.

VOTE: hutmeil

Alright MND time to put your money where your mouth is.

[Frogsterking]

I'm just confused. Why are you townreading hutmeil when he wasn't in your earlier list of townreads? And the whole move where you propose to vote Hutmeil and then make two new posts saying "no Actually I don't want to do that" just feels... strange.

Just be thankful furtiveglance isn't a RadiantCowbells alt.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Frogsterking

I never explained this vote.

I was fed up of Frogsterking going "Delta/Gandhi/MND are being so sus rn it's really confbiasing my confbias about my Delta/Gandhi/MND solve look at me guys I'm confbiasing so hard rn".

It seemed LAMIST and fake.

It's worth pointing out that this is more likely to annoy you if you know that I'm Town scumreading Town for stupid reasons. If you're playing from an uninformed perspective how are you so sure that my solve is bad that you're getting annoyed by me pushing it etc.

[Frogsterking]

Left out Mapuche Never Die and Nuclear Gandhi because both of them produced sufficient amounts of good content.

My ass.

UNVOTE: hutmeil

Sorry Ausuka, this bullshit with MND and Gandhi needs to end today. I'm not waiting until D3 for Gandhi/MND to play like a human.

VOTE: hutmeil

I think this is E-2.

If you want me to vote hutmeil over MND/Gandhi show me where they wrote something that wasn't garbage.

[Frogsterking]

Okay are you going to do anything? Like can you post a reads list?

[Frogsterking]

Scum Frozen R' Us

[Frogsterking]

Alright fine, I'm looking at their completed games

[Frogsterking]

Ah. They have none. Okay.

[Frogsterking]

Okay so if MND is Town what is Gandhi?

[Frogsterking]

bruh, you don't have access to my own notes, don't kid yourself.*

I think this is performative and probably a lie.

[Frogsterking]

MND would you swap Eira for Gandhi in your solve

[Frogsterking]

I can see Gandhi/BBT/hut

[Frogsterking]

It’s just that this game im trying to push my scumreads a lot harder than I normally do.

I feel like this is a Town line rate?

[Frogsterking]

Spoiler:

I'm willing to say Gandhi/

Delta/MND

Based off of: my tone read on Delta is wrong, and I was frustrated with MND's catchup because of already dealing with Gandhi's catchup in the same game.

Then if I take MND's solve

Eir

/hut/

BBT

Based off of: My Townread of Eir, Ausuka's case on hut

I have Gandhi/hut/?

My choice should be easy then?

[Frogsterking]

The timing in 599 made me suspicious. Doesn't make them scum. Just like their point about me in 599.

[Frogsterking]

The timing in 599 made me suspicious. Doesn't make them scum. Just like their point about me in 599.

Oh yeah I remember posting 599 and seeing 598 and thinking, “weird coincidence”

Yeah. And I went on tilt faster during your catchup because I was already annoyed with Gandhi. It makes sense.

[Frogsterking]

Okay I'll say Gandhi/hut/? scum and Ausuka is always Town here..

[Frogsterking]

Okay I'll say Gandhi/hut/? scum and Ausuka is always Town here..

Are you willing to vote hutmeil today?

Hell yeah

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: hutmeil

[Frogsterking]

Okay I'll say Gandhi/hut/? scum and Ausuka is always Town here..

[Frogsterking]

Oh and Hutmeil is at 5 already.

hutmeil (5): Ausuka, DeltaWave, Greeting, Mapuche Never Die, Frogsterking
Greeting (4): Crescent, Eiralox, Nuclear Gandhi, furtiveglance
Mapuche Never Die (3): hoppip, BlueBloodedToffee, Nero Cain

If I had to take a completely wild guess at this vote spread: Everyone on Hutmeil is town, which happens to include the other two vote leaders. I do need to give FK a proper dive tomorrow though.

Kill hutmeil!

[Frogsterking]

Okay I'll say Gandhi/hut/? scum and Ausuka is always Town here..

Yeah but why are you so certain on Gandhi?

His ISO is bad.

[Frogsterking]

Oh I agree his ISO is bad and I may be in a trap of "It looks so bad how could scum be this bad".

His vote on Greeting feels increasingly putrid looking at this vote spread though. He jumps third on Greeting while posting random posts from 500 posts ago, but doesn't actually call him scum. 200 posts later he's still there, and he really hasn't attempted content since.

Yes and hutmeil must die! And Ausuka is Town!

[Frogsterking]

This game solve is hutmeil/Gandhi/furtiveglance right?

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Gandhi

Needs

to be done
I want it

[Frogsterking]

If you want my vote on Eiralox over Gandhi you will need to walk me through the timeline of scum!Eira's D1.

[Frogsterking]

I imagine a compelling narrative exists where Eiralox is scum given any possible combination of flips. We're at the point where our minds try to use hindsight to confbias us right?

[Frogsterking]

page 10
- Juice's 237 was weird, and I find Eiralox's 245 felt hypocritical, but otherwise nothing note worthy imho. Maybe could add Greeting's timing to be a little.. convenient looking for my eyes.

Come on; kill Gandhi lol

[Frogsterking]

851 looks bad to me.

[Frogsterking]

hutmeil's recent reads are very good in my opinion. also the callout of bbt, bbt has been on the sidelines this game and has given me a strange few vibes.

860 can be read as milking cred from hutmeil's flip.

[Frogsterking]

i think you are scum desperate to stay alive at this point and hutmeil is your only recourse.

Can be ego projection.

PEdit:

I townread the way Eiralox is engaging with the thread in these #800s posts, even though I can construct a narrative which makes them scummy.

I think there are a lot less assumptions required to get to the conclusion that Gandhi!scum.

[Frogsterking]

I originally townread Eiralox for it, it seemed like a genuine observation and something that I very often do as town…

Not a good sign. I'll most likely stay off Eira today. I think scum is some BS team like Mohab(Crescent)/Gandhi/Hoppip and we're in TvT BS land.

[Frogsterking]

Frog was also inexplicably town reading Mohab if I remember right and refused to explain the read.

No. Your inability to remember this game is now known rather than implied.

[Frogsterking]

Frog was also inexplicably town reading Mohab if I remember right and refused to explain the read.

No. Your inability to remember this game is now known rather than implied.

I don't know man, you definitely came around to town reading Mohab at some point and never explained it. You refused to explain your posting a number of times as well so I just stopped reading or caring about what you posted.

It sounds like I had good judgment then and you followed suit.

PEdit:

I don't think you have a point here, I think you shaded me based off a mistake in your memory and now you're trying to cobble together a rationalization to protect your ego. I feel like 90% sure our interactions thus far are aimless TvT bullshit.

[Frogsterking]

Greeting can you post a reads list?

[Frogsterking]

Wait, why do you have so many green in your reads?

Have I missed something?

i think all my d1 scumreads were wrong save for Ausuka

Can you elaborate on what caused your reads to flip?

I mean maybe I'm alone here but that just doesn't fly with me. Like you are saying that you didn't want to think about mafia at 6 am but you signed in specifically to DEFEND your d1 actions. I could be wrong of course, but I just don't really understand why MND and BBT are giving you a free pass.

I read the game and explained what I did because that required like literally zero critical analysis or thought on my part. I was repeating information I already knew

Providing partial answers to dilemmas like this is pretty much what I collected data for:

Spoiler: frog's survey

"Get angry easily" = 3

"Take charge" = 3

"Make people feel welcome" = 4

"Like music" = 3

"Like to tidy up" = 2

"Like to visit new places" = 5

"Feel comfortable around people" = 2

"Interested in many things" = 2

"Love order and regularity" = 4

"Am afraid to draw attention to myself" = 3

"Enjoy being part of a large crowd" = 1

"Cheer people up" = 2

"Lose my temper" = 3

"Enjoy the beauty of nature" = 5

"Enjoy thinking about things" = 2

"Cheat to get ahead" = 1

"Feel desperate" = 4

"Rarely overindulge" = 3

"Easily resist temptations" = 2

"Have a high opinion of myself" = 2

"Waste my time" = 4

"Need a push to get started" = 2

"Have little to contribute" = 2

"Keep my cool" = 4

"Avoid crowds" = 5

"Turn my back on others" = 3? Not sure what this one is meant to mean

not sure what this will do but i like personality quizzes so!

I can run my script on her answers to see what the actual sub facets are, but from eyeballing Ausuka's answers I can say that Ausuka is more likely to be telling the truth about their 6 am post.

I'm inclined to believe that you have a subconscious habit of scum leaning players for thread presence, Nero.

[Frogsterking]

it makes sense to me that an informed Ausuka would call my reads bad b/c she knew they were bad. I was also coming from a place where an Eiralox/Cresent team makes

I agree that it's a possibility, I disagree that it's a probability.

These are the main questions and answers from Ausuka which make me think the behavior is NAI.

"Waste my time" = 4

"Need a push to get started" = 2

"Have little to contribute" = 2

Ausuka is industrial and assertive. Means they are likely to share their opinion upon reading the topic at 6 am as Town.

"Enjoy the beauty of nature" = 5

"Enjoy thinking about things" = 2

"Cheat to get ahead" = 1

Ausuka is cooperative (possible alternative motivation for sharing their opinion.)

Ausuka is very high in fantasy/imagination (like me!!) and much lower in intellectual curiosity. This means we can expect Ausuka is primarily relying on their intuition, feelings and perceptual abilities rather than their analytical abilities to identify scum. Ausuka seems to be acting congruent with this because they wrote that 6 am felt too early for critical thinking, which implies to me that it didn't feel too early for sharing perceptual or intuitive thoughts, which is why they posted what they did.

[Frogsterking]

Happy birthday, Delta

[Frogsterking]

i was in my last year of law school when i joined and now i'm a senior trial attorney lol

Okay, and do you work at a firm?

[Frogsterking]

i was in my last year of law school when i joined and now i'm a senior trial attorney lol

Okay, and do you work at a firm?

yeah. i used to be the general counsel for a company but they went under due to covid and now i'm back to trial law.

How do you feel about the work culture at your firm?

[Frogsterking]

i was in my last year of law school when i joined and now i'm a senior trial attorney lol

Okay, and do you work at a firm?

yeah. i used to be the general counsel for a company but they went under due to covid and now i'm back to trial law.

How do you feel about the work culture at your firm?

this is actually the best firm i've worked at. there's a legitimate team spirit and it lacks the kind of backstabbing/undermining that is typical in law firms. very unusual environment

Is the environment unusual only because of the lack of backstabbing or are there other aspects which make it unusual to work there?

[Frogsterking]

i was in my last year of law school when i joined and now i'm a senior trial attorney lol

Okay, and do you work at a firm?

yeah. i used to be the general counsel for a company but they went under due to covid and now i'm back to trial law.

How do you feel about the work culture at your firm?

this is actually the best firm i've worked at. there's a legitimate team spirit and it lacks the kind of backstabbing/undermining that is typical in law firms. very unusual environment

Is the environment unusual only because of the lack of backstabbing or are there other aspects which make it unusual to work there?

i'm fine w/talking about this but is this related to mafia? i will keep answering if this is some psychoanalysis thing because i want to know my personality type

It's related to both topics

[Frogsterking]

oh cool. they take advantage of better systems, e.g. we're completely digital with e-signatures etc etc instead of fully paper files and that sort of thing. they also have a well-defined role for paralegals which is sometimes a question mark in firms

That sounds really helpful and highly unusual for a law firm. Are there any noticeable (though abstract) differences from other law firms when you interact with coworkers/bosses/paralegals at this firm?

[Frogsterking]

oh cool. they take advantage of better systems, e.g. we're completely digital with e-signatures etc etc instead of fully paper files and that sort of thing. they also have a well-defined role for paralegals which is sometimes a question mark in firms

That sounds really helpful and highly unusual for a law firm. Are there any noticeable (though abstract) differences from other law firms when you interact with coworkers/bosses/paralegals at this firm?

I'm trying not to ask leading questions lmao

[Frogsterking]

For a moment there I thought that a law firm exists which embraces intellectual curiosity and I was dumb-founded. I thought about what you said a little bit and now I think there is a different explanation for the advantages which your firm offers.

[Frogsterking]

Greeting can you post a reads list?

I will do this on Day 3 after I see

Eiralox

's flip. That is, if I am still alive on Day 3.

Can you not play like Gandhi please?

[Frogsterking]

Alright, some reads because reads are good;

Town -

Hoppip, Inutile, Furtive, Ausuka

Maybe town -

Ghandi

Null -

Hutmeil, Greeting, Juice

Maybe scum -

Eira

,

Mohab

Scum -

Frog and Delta

VOTE: Delta

I colored in the above with where my head is at right now.

[Frogsterking]

BBT.... has done nothing. The only reasons i changed my vote are cos frogster seems to think bbt town, and cos imma do this proper.

I think this is the last one now unless you believe BBT is Town.

[Frogsterking]

Fake TvT path?

Spoiler:

Frog was also inexplicably town reading Mohab if I remember right and refused to explain the read.

No. Your inability to remember this game is now known rather than implied.

I don't know man, you definitely came around to town reading Mohab at some point and never explained it. You refused to explain your posting a number of times as well so I just stopped reading or caring about what you posted.

I'm definitely coming around to Mohab!Town here.

Yeah, you start town reading him after his really bad push on Greeting which caught mine, and I think Ausuka's (?) attention.

Frog was also inexplicably town reading Mohab if I remember right and refused to explain the read.

No. Your inability to remember this game is now known rather than implied.

I don't know man, you definitely came around to town reading Mohab at some point and never explained it. You refused to explain your posting a number of times as well so I just stopped reading or caring about what you posted.

It sounds like I had good judgment then and you followed suit.

PEdit:

I don't think you have a point here, I think you shaded me based off a mistake in your memory and now you're trying to cobble together a rationalization to protect your ego. I feel like 90% sure our interactions thus far are aimless TvT bullshit.

girls, you are both pretty

BBT disappears again after this because being labeled TvT is a desirable outcome for him (unlike everyone else in this thread who gets confrontational over being labeled TvT.)

I'd describe BBT as trapped in a shade-disguise-lurk loop. BBT shades a townie target, if they're called out they disguise the interaction as a TvT shit fest, then they lurk as long as possible.

A couple notable exceptions occurred in D2:

BBT randomly town sending himself

Spoiler:

I have to ask, why is there a wagon on Juice but not a wagon on me? this game makes no sense. I just looked at their posts and I am barely ahead of them in useful activity if at all.

This makes me feel weird about Greeting's intent to hammer or whatever bullshit: yes they didn't give a reason for you to townread them but neither did I or I'd reckon several people in here basically have given no reason to be town read so I am extremely confused what's going on. It seems like somebody is just trying to jump on a random wagon to me.

VOTE: Greeting

There is a wagon on Juice because they have literally contributed nothing despite popping into thread 3 times or whatever it is.

I find it interesting that you're willing to go to bat for a slot you seem to think is town from extremely little information.

Why did you choose Greeting out of all the people? Sure, he stated intent to hammer, but he isn't even voting unlike everyone else on the wagon.

I do think the intent to hammer is just a way to pre-emptively justify getting on the wagon. I also never stated that I thought the juice guy was 100% town, I just don't think this excuse of him popping in and out of the game and saying random shit is a good reason to vote him because that's also exactly what I've been doing and people aren't really wagoning me hard or other people who have literally contributed nothing.

Why would he need to justify getting on the wagon when barely anyone else has? Why is Greeting's intent to hammer any worse than any other vote on the wagon?

You never stated Juice was town, but you imply it by fighting against the wagon. If Juice is town, I would bet either you or Eira are scum. Scum try to avoid this Juice wagon, 100%.

You've also contributed

some

things. Juice has contributed none, there is no comparison to be made.

Anyone trying to put me on PoE for inactivity can suck it. Had I been around more, I would have pushed on Mohab.

These interactions are never s/s

I'm not paired with Mohab so I really shouldn't be there.

BBT asking completely pointless questions to appear active in the thread

Spoiler:

i think i may have modded a game once or twice off-site so i'm probably not the best expert on this. ill need someone else to confirm my understanding on this one, but my understanding of natural action resolution is that kill actions are resolved before investigate actions. therefore, you wouldn't get a guilty on crescent. your action wouldn't have resolved at all because crescent was killed. see, e.g, https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... olden_Rule

This actually sounds legit. Does anyone know with 100% certainty?

I kinda think this'll be a scum win b/c ya'll ain't going to vote out Ausuka.

Why would we vote out town?

Wait, why do you have so many green in your reads?

Have I missed something?

OK, you just greened town reads Nero?

I think that BBT found a pattern of play (shade-disguise-lurk) which was effective for them on D1 and they're deviating from this pattern on D2 because they're nervous and tense.

I'm thinking Gandhi/BBT are the last two.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: BBT

[Frogsterking]

I don't think I am moving my vote elsewhere today. I mean, it's not impossible, but there isn't a lim I would want more than

Eiralox

.

I feel like you aren't making any attempts to be flexible and work with your team.

[Frogsterking]

but no one is doing anything.

I'd like to get BBT or Klick killed

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Greeting

[Frogsterking]

Is Greeting still V/la?

[Frogsterking]

Ausuka should probably die if they don't towntell soon.

Omg Nero your soul mate has arrived

[Frogsterking]

Eira reads a lot like they genuinely don't give a shit how they're perceived, which is something one would plausibly do as town but would necessarily have to not be doing as scum. Frogster could I get your opinion on this bit specifically

Yeah I think Eira is focused on finding scum rather than appearing pro Town, it's not a very superficial style of play.

[Frogsterking]

What a massive increase in player quality. VOTE: Ausuka

[Frogsterking]

what did Klick say to get you to vote her?

...I'm not sure. Something which broke my bias.

[Frogsterking]

Alright, some reads because reads are good;

Town -

Hoppip, Inutile, Furtive, Ausuka

Maybe town -

Ghandi

Null -

Hutmeil, Greeting, Juice

Maybe scum -

Eira

,

Mohab

Scum -

Frog and Delta

VOTE: Delta

I colored in the above with where my head is at right now.

I think this layout from 134 makes more sense:

Town -

Hoppip, Inutile, Furtive,

Ausuka

Maybe town -

Ghandi

Null -

Hutmeil, Greeting, Juice

Maybe scum -

Eira

,

Mohab

Scum -

Frog and Delta

[Frogsterking]

I think that Ausuka ignoring my analysis in 1255 is scummy.

[Frogsterking]

what did Klick say to get you to vote her?

what did Klick say to get you to vote her?

...I'm not sure. Something which broke my bias.

This part at the end maybe:

I'm up to Page 13 and now I'm going to take the kids out for a play. I feel like I've got a decent chunk of confident townreads and a few I want to see where they go. Ausuka should probably die if they don't towntell soon.

Wholesome first line into suggestive selling. Bias instantly broken.

[Frogsterking]

Sure, If Ausuka was being misread as town she wouldn't care but why would a town Ausuka reply to that?

Ego

[Frogsterking]

What a massive increase in player quality. VOTE: Ausuka

You were scumreading Gandhi and seem to be townreading Klick extremely easily. I really do not think his post was that impressive.

Also, do you really think Crescent's interactions with Greeting are s/s because I'm inclined to believe the opposite

Nah it's too late, you dead now fool

[Frogsterking]

FYI, Ausuka just modded a game where Klick rolled over and died as scum after replacing into a slot which was under pressure. Ausuka claiming to be unimpressed with 1355 is probably a lie.

[Frogsterking]

FYI, Ausuka just modded a game where Klick rolled over and died as scum after replacing into a slot which was under pressure. Ausuka claiming to be unimpressed with 1355 is probably a lie.

*1335

[Frogsterking]

Though this post is even more impressive.

[Frogsterking]

This is Ausuka's comedy hour.

[Frogsterking]

Here's a visual reference between Klick's posting in this game and in the scum!Klick game Ausuka modded. See if you can spot the difference.

inutile is obvtown from early pages
Hoppip probably town
Furtive town
Greeting town?

BBT is having very good takes early, 134 feels very accurate to me up to this point

The content Greeting gives around Page 6/7 feels not only genuine but also actually very helpful. If it continues then Greeting can be town

Frogster's solving so far feels more towny than scummy

230 doesn't feel like what scum really aims to be posting, but it does look like a genuine town stance. I want to see more of these because this is the first one I've seen from Eiralox
...eiralox then does basically the same thing in 234, I totally believe Eiralox's read on furtive.

Depending on the payoff of Frogster's 299 I totally buy into his zeal for this game and think he's town for it. Now to shake your scumread on this slot so we can start getting somewhere.

Eira reads a lot like they genuinely don't give a shit how they're perceived, which is something one would plausibly do as town but would necessarily have to not be doing as scum.

Frogster

could I get your opinion on this bit specifically


I'm up to Page 13 and now I'm going to take the kids out for a play. I feel like I've got a decent chunk of confident townreads and a few I want to see where they go. Ausuka should probably die if they don't towntell soon.

I'm up to Page 25 but I really need a bit more sleep before work.
Here's where my thoughts are at so far

TOWN
Klick
Gamma
Seanzie
KT
T3

NULL
Eiralox
schadd_
Enchant
Malakittens
Haschel Cedricson

SCUM
redcardinal

[Frogsterking]

I don't think I am moving my vote elsewhere today. I mean, it's not impossible, but there isn't a lim I would want more than

Eiralox

.

I feel like you aren't making any attempts to be flexible and work with your team.

Eiralox

was a leading wagon until a few posts before yours. If that's not good town teamwork on eliminating a shady slot, I don't know what is.

Maybe you should reconsider why you're not on that wagon. The case on

Eiralox

is out there with nothing more to add.

Your case on Eiralox is horrendous vote Ausuka

[Frogsterking]

weren't u town reading gandhi anyways?

not really? i was townleaning him slightly earlier but like he hasn't really done anything all game frankly

It's difficult to tell the truth considering the nonexistent read progression Ausuka has on almost every single slot, including Gandhi.

[Frogsterking]

Greeting you can still redeem your townplay here by voting Ausuka.

At least that's what I'm telling myself...

[Frogsterking]

That's disappointing.

[Frogsterking]

I don't think I am moving my vote elsewhere today. I mean, it's not impossible, but there isn't a lim I would want more than

Eiralox

.

I feel like you aren't making any attempts to be flexible and work with your team.

Eiralox

was a leading wagon until a few posts before yours. If that's not good town teamwork on eliminating a shady slot, I don't know what is.

Maybe you should reconsider why you're not on that wagon. The case on

Eiralox

is out there with nothing more to add.

Your case on Eiralox is horrendous vote Ausuka

Okay, but like, I asked

Nero

why

Ausuka

is scum a few hundred posts ago and I didn't get an answer from him nor from you nor from anyone else. So virtually nothing and no one prompted me to reevaluate that read.

I feel like you aren't making any attempts to be flexible and work with your team.

I think Nero had a good read on Ausuka and did a bad job explaining it. I think Ausuka's play is stylized and the replacement slots are having an easier time reading her.

[Frogsterking]

I don't think I am moving my vote elsewhere today. I mean, it's not impossible, but there isn't a lim I would want more than

Eiralox

.

I feel like you aren't making any attempts to be flexible and work with your team.

Eiralox

was a leading wagon until a few posts before yours. If that's not good town teamwork on eliminating a shady slot, I don't know what is.

Maybe you should reconsider why you're not on that wagon. The case on

Eiralox

is out there with nothing more to add.

Your case on Eiralox is horrendous vote Ausuka

Okay, but like, I asked

Nero

why

Ausuka

is scum a few hundred posts ago and I didn't get an answer from him nor from you nor from anyone else. So virtually nothing and no one prompted me to reevaluate that read.

I feel like you aren't making any attempts to be flexible and work with your team.

I think Nero had a good read on Ausuka and did a bad job explaining it. I think Ausuka's play is stylized and the replacement slots are having an easier time reading her.

Of course it's also possible that Nero had a good read on Ausuka and we did a bad job

listening

to it.

[Frogsterking]

I had this one improv teacher who was pretty cool who taught us that the hardest lesson in improv is to learn to accept gifts.

Why are you scumreading Ghandhi? Bit of a non-sequitur I know but I don't want to get into your improv stuff.

I want to give us all a visual on the massive upgrade in player quality Town just recieved:

First 2 pages

- I guess what looked like inutile narrating Ausuka's play but then trying to

diffuse the situation

when asked about why, it was really him thinking out loud. I don't blame myself for finding it sus earlier, never seen that (usually when someone thinks out loud it's not so.. empty). I'm willing to mark that as useful engagement by inutile.
- Ausuka's read in 42 viewtopic.php?p=13480278#p13480278 is reasonable, for the above.
- Frog's read in 41 memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=16233 also, though I'm surprised he could see everything so clearly.
- 45s viewtopic.php?p=13480284#p13480284

"? it could easily be explained as coming from either mafia or town, why would i only consider the scumread aspect of it?"

by inutei feels too defensive intially. But on a 2nd thought, it's again him describing his playstyle so whatever. Currently I want inutei alive for now; I'm very confident that their playstyle makes their slot very very solvable in the long run so it's benefitial to give them the benefit of doubt.
- 47 viewtopic.php?p=13480293#p13480293 by Frog is just.. deliberately aggrevating with unncessary unhelpful demeaning comment? Why?
Also of note: given that me, inutile, ausuka and Frog have been the only players who posted thus far, and Frog called me Town in 48 and 51 while calling inutile and ausuka locktown in 47 - it makes Frog's claim of there being a solvable wolf slot already be his own slot?

page 3

- 58 viewtopic.php?p=13480346#p13480346 by Frog makes no sense given the above, since he must be talking about himself?
- While I can see what DeltaWave means in 67 viewtopic.php?p=13480602#p13480602 ; I'm not as convinced it's that AI for inutile. A decent early sus though, but a bit weak to follow especially when it's on a self resolving slot like inutile seems to be.
- I can agree with hoppip's 68 memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=36738 to an extent. I mean, I no longer think it's as bad looking for inutei as I originally thought but I wouldn't call them Town either like hoppip does.
- inutile, if you read this, what did you mean by "traction" in 70? viewtopic.php?p=13480622#p13480622
- 72 viewtopic.php?p=13480625#p13480625 by DeltaWave is interesting in the sense that I don't think a player who hasn't played since 2015, or whenever, would be so directly shade throwy and so early if they were wolf? It's so "in your face" WIM energy, though I'm not sure. This read is entirely based on the idea that someone who hasn't played so long wouldn't be so fearless as Mafia, but I don't know what type of person they are. Good enough for a Day1 read as far as I'm concerned though.
- Really wish inutile in 74 viewtopic.php?p=13480627#p13480627 didn't leave his comment to implications and instead said what they think. What's the point other than off hand shade throwing? If you throw shades at least don't leave them to implications and say what you mean.

page 4

- 76 viewtopic.php?p=13480629#p13480629 Can I just say that, yet again, this makes way more sense coming from a Town!DeltaWave simply given the 7 years of not playing? I hate this read because without that fact, I'd call this shade throwing otherwise.
- 79 viewtopic.php?p=13480637#p13480637 by DeltaWave, again, that's a fair view tbh.
- hoppip, if you read this, what's the difference between "looks bad" and "looks scummy"? viewtopic.php?p=13480649#p13480649 ; Though I can now see how "shading Inutile for superficial reasons" isn't necessarily scummy, as I got the same view on this re-read. But honestly, without that

hasn't played for 7 years

thing, I could usually never see that as not scummy.
- inutile, you're completely right in 88 viewtopic.php?p=13480742#p13480742 ; I'd like to apologize for that.
- due to 90 viewtopic.php?p=13480744#p13480744 I've the feeling that inutile is the type of person who's super easy to get voted out if you're Mafia, all you need is to sus them and their focus will be limited to defending themselves, which can only lead to their overall game contribution to look nothing but scummy. I think we should give inutile some breathing room. Again, I'm super certain that slot is easily solvable in the long run.
- At this point in game inutile is/was such a low hanging fruit, that I think 95 viewtopic.php?p=13480777#p13480777 is a good look for Ausuka. Not by much, because multiple people called inutile town by this point. But I do believe a inutile miselim would had been an easy path for a wolf!Ausuka.
- I don't like 99 viewtopic.php?p=13480784#p13480784 by Frog tbh. Because I don't see why would you townread someone for trying to communicate something that you yourself don't understand what it is. Because "it seemed important to them"? This may be a wild guess, but I believe it's possible for wolves to also have some importance in explaining and defending themselves. This is a bad townread reasoning tbh.


Alright, I know I only got 4 pages in - but I honestly feel good about my progress. I'm starting to tell slots apart from each other and have some view on how the game is going, so I think it'll be much easier for me the next time I come in. Nevertheless I'll need to up my activity a bit to be left behind.
VOTE: Frogsterking I got nothing better tbh; simply put the only slot who gave me some negative vibes on this re-read catchup.

Be back tommorow

First catch up post

inutile is obvtown from early pages
Hoppip probably town
Furtive town
Greeting town?

BBT is having very good takes early, 134 feels very accurate to me up to this point

The content Greeting gives around Page 6/7 feels not only genuine but also actually very helpful. If it continues then Greeting can be town

Frogster's solving so far feels more towny than scummy

230 doesn't feel like what scum really aims to be posting, but it does look like a genuine town stance. I want to see more of these because this is the first one I've seen from Eiralox
...eiralox then does basically the same thing in 234, I totally believe Eiralox's read on furtive.

Depending on the payoff of Frogster's 299 I totally buy into his zeal for this game and think he's town for it. Now to shake your scumread on this slot so we can start getting somewhere.

Eira reads a lot like they genuinely don't give a shit how they're perceived, which is something one would plausibly do as town but would necessarily have to not be doing as scum.

Frogster

could I get your opinion on this bit specifically


I'm up to Page 13 and now I'm going to take the kids out for a play. I feel like I've got a decent chunk of confident townreads and a few I want to see where they go. Ausuka should probably die if they don't towntell soon.

First catch up post

Klick is basically everything that Nuclear Gandhi wasn't.

[Frogsterking]

sorry i've been out of it. the last couple days have been extra busy as they always are before a holiday weekend. i'll contribute tomorrow morning if i don't do it tonight

It's going better. A good player replaced into Gandhi's slot.

[Frogsterking]

@MND

How many times have you played in a game where the most active player was scum? I can only think of one game and I lock towned them as long as I was alive. I think there are a lot of surface level reasons to lock town Ausuka, and when you read their iso and consider what they've been saying, it helps to see there is a lot less reason to Townread than other players.

[Frogsterking]

Alright I feel pretty convinced it's best here if Ausuka goes to e-1 and claims.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Delta

I'll take a Delta e-1 and claim as a compromise.