Mini Normal 2279: VGSR - GAME OVER

[Ausuka]

VOTE: BBT

Hoppip I like your username let's be bffs

[Ausuka]

Nuclear Gandhi we should be friends too I've played some civilisation 6 it's a fun game

This is a pretty standard game opener for this site, I didn't really have anything to say to you because nothing you said was alignment indicative, sorry for ignoring you

[Ausuka]

Unless there are alts in the game (which realistically there are) I have very limited experience with any other player here

[Ausuka]

I knew the reference! I haven't played much of the civ games but I'm pretty sure Gandhi has an agenda where he won't like you unless you have nuclear weapons

pedit: I don't have any recent completed games with him but am not completely unfamiliar I guess

[Ausuka]

First read is that nuclear Gandhi is town because

I want to pocket him

I think he feels comfortable

[Ausuka]

Hoppip I like your username let's be bffs

Hi!

VOTE: inutile

had/have a feeling (?)

What does this mean?

This is a pretty standard game opener for this site, I didn't really have anything to say to you because nothing you said was alignment indicative, sorry for ignoring you

yeah your opener pretty paint by numbers but you're aware so

like

vote someone
say something about someone else in same post
encourage engagement
make an early read!!

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

[Ausuka]

was saying it felt like a sort of

like

"this is how to post at the beginning of the game" thing

like especially the first post is textbook "how to rvs"

Ok, am I mafia?

[Ausuka]

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

though i am now kinda curious what else you could have thought i was trying to say there (also to me i am simply saying it not trying to say but i understand that i am often unclear and am happy to clarify)

I didn't really know. I mean, I think talking about my opener being textbook RVS seems somewhat nonsensical? It's the very start of the game, there aren't many options.

I don't really have a feeling about hoppip. Maybe I will later, idk.

Pedit: I'm trying to ask, like, what are you getting at with what you're saying? Were you just narrating my play?

[Ausuka]

it means i was asking if ausuka has/had a non-alignment related feeling as i did/or at least did after hoppip's first post

[Ausuka]

hmm

VOTE: inutile

[Ausuka]

hmm

VOTE: inutile

can you at least do whatever it is you would do to sort me as it feels like the extent of your scumread if you're town is simply that i do not communicate effectively which is obvious and i would rather this not continue to detract from us finding mafias

I think 22 is weird considering you say you're not scumreading me - tonally it doesn't sit right with me, especially the double exclamation points

What mafias should I be looking at right now instead?

Inutile and Asuka both townlocked.

Why?

[Ausuka]

Also Asuka, the irony in your statement about the mafias is that there is 1 scum who is findable already. You didn't notice them because you were distracted by your fight with inutile.

Is it you?

You seem to have this idea in your head that I'm tunneled because I voted someone on page 2. Maybe I just don't agree with your read? Who knows.

[Ausuka]

You seem to have this idea in your head that I'm tunneled

You're the only one who said anything about being tunneled, I just said you were Town. You can't say I've implied you have bad reads either because I'm trusting your read on Ghandi.

I mean, you said I didn't notice your read because I was distracted by fighting with inutile. That seems to imply my read with inutile is distracting me from reading other players somehow. I am suggesting that your scumread is not that obvious and you should talk about it because there's no use in being vague about that information.

[Ausuka]

I'm a fighter

[Ausuka]

I have decided that inutile is town actually

UNVOTE:

[Ausuka]

i would rather this not continue to detract from us finding mafias

This has big "how do you do fellow kids" energy

VOTE: Inutile

What do you think of the rest of its posts?

frankly most of it confuses me and it seems like lots of weird rationalizations. unless this user is normally on edge all the time, it looks bad

I mean, inutile seems to have a pretty blatant anxious sort of personality. and like, I don't think anyone would be confusing on purpose? So I'm unclear why you're scumreading them for this here

[Ausuka]

VOTE: BBT

Hoppip I like your username let's be bffs

Oops, I missed this earlier! I don't mind if you pocket me today, so sure!

thanks bestie

i would rather this not continue to detract from us finding mafias

This has big "how do you do fellow kids" energy

VOTE: Inutile

What do you think of the rest of its posts?

frankly most of it confuses me and it seems like lots of weird rationalizations. unless this user is normally on edge all the time, it looks bad

Hmm...I suppose that's fair. But I'm not so sure that "looks bad" is the same as "looks scummy." For instance, I think it looks bad that you're shading Inutile for superficial reasons. But do you think that's scummy?

Shading can only be done by wolves? Unless I've a misunderstanding of the word, I don't quite understand how you could not wolfread DeltaWave if you genuinely think they're shading someone.
This could be Chainsaw Defense done by you, but as that wiki says - Chainsawing is mostly likely if you and inutile are both wolves here, so it's not all that damning for you unless inutile flips red.

Hi Nuclear Ghandi! Can you read my post again? It looks like you missed the point of what I was saying.

Hoppip would you say you're trying to shift your playstyle on this alt? I'm not asking you to out your main or anything but I think it'd be useful to know

[Ausuka]

eh do not think i was trying particularly hard there to look town

But you were trying to look town? I consider this as admission for guilt.

Does anyone else believe this's a stretch read?

Do you think scum would admit guilt so openly?

[Ausuka]

Not intentionally, no. But perhaps you can explain to me why would the thought "how much I tried to appeared towny?" pop in a townies thought process or why would the answer ever be above zero? To me it's not a natural towny thing to think about and, at the very least, indicative for >rand wolf slot.

I think you're reading too much into the wording and it was just saying "I disagree with your interpretation"

I think this is a fairly townie response though

[Ausuka]

Here are some reads of mine.

Consensus (or close to consensus) reads I have:

Frogsterking, Ausuka, Inutile, Hoppip Town

Reads that aren't consensus (I think):

Nuclear Ghandhi Town, Mohab sus, DeltaWave sus

i would rather this not continue to detract from us finding mafias

This has big "how do you do fellow kids" energy

VOTE: Inutile

I sus DeltaWave for this, and I think their delayed omgus style interaction with hoppip (83) also is mafia.

VOTE: DeltaWave

I'd like if you could elaborate on your townreads.

Can you elaborate on your thoughts on 83 as well? I really do not see what you're seeing there

[Ausuka]

I'd also like Greeting to elaborate on their reads I guess

VOTE: furtiveglance

I like this best for now

[Ausuka]

Hi Ausuka, I think you're town and this is a bad vote. Change it please?

Hi - I do kind of see why people are going after Delta but I don't see it right now. I think furtive is more suspicious than anyone else and him broadly agreeing with your view on the gamestate doesn't really convince me otherwise

[Ausuka]

Here are some reads of mine.

Consensus (or close to consensus) reads I have:

Frogsterking, Ausuka, Inutile, Hoppip Town

Reads that aren't consensus (I think):

Nuclear Ghandhi Town, Mohab sus, DeltaWave sus

i would rather this not continue to detract from us finding mafias

This has big "how do you do fellow kids" energy

VOTE: Inutile

I sus DeltaWave for this, and I think their delayed omgus style interaction with hoppip (83) also is mafia.

VOTE: DeltaWave

I'd like if you could elaborate on your townreads.

Can you elaborate on your thoughts on 83 as well? I really do not see what you're seeing there

I missed this intially because I posted right after. I townread you for the progression on inutile, it looked natural. Frogsterking is making a lot of reads early on which I usually find towny. Inutile and Hoppip both just seem to have an innocent kind of energy, I can see their approaches to the game being from a town perspective.

83 interested me because DeltaWave says Hoppip is acting sus after their interaction in 82, in which Hoppip said DeltaWave 'shaded Inutile for superficial reasons', which is what it looked like to me as well. Hence I called it a delayed omgus.

Ok, the townreads don't do a lot for me but to be fair it is very early in the game, so

I don't think hoppip was really calling Delta suspicious in post 82. He seemed to be saying that Delta's point is bad but he's not necessarily scum for it. In any case, I'm still not really sure what you mean and why you find it suspicious - it's only one post after so not really delayed, and anyway don't you think town could suspect someone who they're in some sort of confrontation with? The idea of 'delayed omgus' just feels off to me honestly.

[Ausuka]

Ausuka, can you talk to me about why Furtive is scum please?

It's mostly vibes. The main thing I would say I don't like is his post pushing delta, more specifically I think the thing about "delayed omgus" feels artificial and I think is unlikely to come from a natural thought process.

[Ausuka]

Ausuka

, any thoughts about my townreads?

I think the inutile read is pretty convincing but I'm townreading it anyway.

One thing I'm wondering about is that you implied you townread me pretty heavily earlier but now are saying you don't think I've been scumhunting much - did your read change or something?

[Ausuka]

I know? I meant that your case would lean me to townread inutile, but I was townreading it anyway.

[Ausuka]

Ok, you're right that delayed omgus isn't the right term. It's a knee-jerk reaction nonetheless, it felt to me that DeltaWave didn't want to allow Hoppip to put a bit of sus on them without getting the last word. As to whether or not Hoppip did put sus on DeltaWave, I would argue the answer is yes, whether intentional or otherwise. They said that DeltaWave 'looked bad' to them. So I read into that a bit, I thought DeltaWave looked worse from the whole interaction. I understand your issue with buzzwords like 'omgus', I have the same thing. But in this case I thought it was notable that DeltaWave didn't let it slide, they said they would respond later but made the point of saying that hoppip was being 'somewhat sus'

Do you disagree that town often suspect people who suspect them? I feel like you're pushing a scum!Delta possibility without really considering the other side of things. Like, there is indeed a world where Delta decided to scumread hoppip because he misinterpreted their post as a scumread and wanted to push back against it, but I don't see why you think it's likely, which I was hoping to get you to explain because I think it's a stretchy read.

[Ausuka]

Another thing - I don't get the refusal to share. This game is about co-operation. If you repeatedly refuse to talk you're transgressing, which may get you a sanction. And 3 sanctions is a full desadulation. And I might vote you for the simple crime of not talking.

Good. I second this sentiment.

This + his reads (113; I mean I kinda disagree with

hoppip

, but it's still a valid read from a town point of view - speaking of122) + the earlier quoted post makes me think

furtiveglance

is town.

I mean I think you and furtive are right about Eiralox, but it's not like it's a hard sentiment to fake.

[Ausuka]

I'm aware, and I'm not as confident about this as I would be if you had made such a read later in the game. But I'm just saying it doesn't seem like your read on Delta came from a genuine thought process; if I'm mafia here and Delta is town I would probably want to vote Delta here, he feels like an easier push than other people who have been present so far. So when I feel like you decided he's scum and then made up the reasons it's concerning to me.

[Ausuka]

I acknowledge that, but I think even if other people hadn't really pushed there yet a scum player would likely realise there's room to push him without much pushack. I suppose it's not a particularly productive argument to be having at this stage.

[Ausuka]

mohab are you just going to be doing this all game or

[Ausuka]

I think like several people in this game are sincerely arguing teamsolves in early d1 and I just do not get it.

Delta could you elaborate on the furtive read

[Ausuka]

You, eiralox, and Delta have all been doing it quite a lot iirc

[Ausuka]

You, eiralox, and Delta have all been doing it quite a lot iirc

Okay and why bring it up?

Because I think pushing teamsolves on day 1 is a bad idea and is pretty likely to misdirect our attention. Talk of associatives now is just noise. I think this is a pretty obvious answer, what are you hoping to get out of this line of questioning?

[Ausuka]

What exactly about me thinking it's a bad idea to gamesolve on day 1 have you that impression? These questions kind of feel like posting for the sake of posting honestly

[Ausuka]

Are you trying to imply that I believe the scumteam is exactly you, eiralox or delta while voting none of you? If not I have no idea what you're trying to say

[Ausuka]

If you think that for some reason me not explicitly stating the people I'm talking about (even though I think it's pretty obvious who has been pushing associative reads here) is holding something back I don't think that explains the second question

[Ausuka]

It's not substantially different. Anyone else can correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's really obvious why I would criticise team solving. I think it's also extremely obvious who I was talking about there. Like super extremely blatantly obvious to the point where I do not think this is a real train of thought from you.

[Ausuka]

Like hmm who could this post about several people making teamsolves in the thread be about??? Maybe the people who have been doing that repetitively, in this thread, open for everyone to read

[Ausuka]

Like hmm who could this post about several people making teamsolves in the thread be about??? Maybe the people who have been doing that repetitively, in this thread, open for everyone to read

Do you think it's fake confusion? Or do you think they're playing dumb?

I thought last night this was likely because I couldn't understand Frog's thought process at all. Right now I think we view the game so differently that this line of reasoning is probably useless.

[Ausuka]

@Delta

@hutmeil

@BBT

What do you make of 237?

Clinging to that rvs for dear life lmao

it's page 10. so? juice is still null. im not against any votes there but data-wise iffy. why do I get the feeling that you're hunting for easy elims Delta?

OH yeah that must be why I'm still voting inutile

Try to make up better rationales please

despite 'common consensus' inutile is very elimable today, we all are in theory. i think they are town but hey they are def still a poss. and when you voted inutile, well, at that point it did seem an easy elim?

and you voting one place doesnt mean im not gonna analyze your pushes where you don't vote? what logic even is that? i'm only allowed to comment on where you vote? while your early scum on juice has been reinforced here? better rationale? no. I like my rationale right here, trained on you.

sooooo yeah................... i'll wait for gandhi but you're starting to really sell me on delta/hoppip here.

Kind of surprised you're calling Delta out for his push against Juice, because honestly it felt like one of the least scummy examples of that. I think furtive and hutmeil both came off looking worse.

Juice is supreme limbait. I don't have any strong evidence that they're town (I suppose play like this is somewhat +town just because if they were scum their partners would probably bully them into not doing this?) but I do agree that pushes there raise eyebrows to some extent.

[Ausuka]

delta/hoppip isn't a team solve to me, but a blatant pattern that i feel delta is trying very hard to veer past for whatever reason. if i felt town on either slot I woulda let it slide, but I don't.

I'm going to be honest, I don't see the Delta read - I don't agree that scum are more likely to respond defensively and aggressively in the way he did to you, and I think Delta is likely to be town here

That said I don't really suspect you either - you feel like you have conviction and I sort of understand where your Delta read comes from at least. It shows a level of solving that experienced scum can definitely fake but I think is probably +town for you here.

I don't think hoppip is a bad place to look though, his posting hasn't really whelmed me and the push on Delta felt slightly slimy in the sense that "if he was town he would have brought up his meta in response to my post" doesn't feel like a real thought? Does anyone else, like, understand this line of reasoning? If people do it might just be a me thing, but otherwise I don't like the read

[Ausuka]

I was out today. I'll be able to post more this time tomorrow. In short, Deltawave has been giving some good stuff and I quite like it, enough to unvote. I think Eiralox looks worse from their back and forth and I think the "I faked a read to test reactions" is easily faked and not amazing townplay in any case. BBT is a bit sus but not enough to vote yet. I'll vote Juice because they laughed about being sussed for RVS or something and it was weird.

VOTE: Juice

I think this post is scummy - part of it is just that it feels a bit slimy? But I'm particular I don't get the eiralox read and I think the push on Juice is opportunistic and unlikely to lead to much while being a seemingly safe route for scum - I think town would be more likely to expand on the BBT read or push Eiralox harder since it's more likely to generate AI content at this stage

[Ausuka]

I was out today. I'll be able to post more this time tomorrow. In short, Deltawave has been giving some good stuff and I quite like it, enough to unvote. I think Eiralox looks worse from their back and forth and I think the "I faked a read to test reactions" is easily faked and not amazing townplay in any case. BBT is a bit sus but not enough to vote yet. I'll vote Juice because they laughed about being sussed for RVS or something and it was weird.

VOTE: Juice

I think this post is scummy - part of it is just that it feels a bit slimy? But I'm particular I don't get the eiralox read and I think the push on Juice is opportunistic and unlikely to lead to much while being a seemingly safe route for scum - I think town would be more likely to expand on the BBT read or push Eiralox harder since it's more likely to generate AI content at this stage

You don't think Juice can defend themself?

I feel like this was meant to be a sarcastic comment to imply I'm defending Juice when I shouldn't be but I unironically think this

[Ausuka]

Well maybe it's a matter of won't rather than can't but I think I'm broadly correct that Juice is an extremely easy target here

[Ausuka]

I disagree. I mean, it's certainly reasonable to not townread Juice, but I think having them as your top scumread this early is just safe and boring. They are borderline unreadable at this stage. Later we might have more content, a new player in the slot, whatever.

[Ausuka]

I disagree. I mean, it's certainly reasonable to not townread Juice, but I think having them as your top scumread this early is just safe and boring. They are borderline unreadable at this stage. Later we might have more content, a new player in the slot, whatever.

I'm tired of being told some players are too scummy to be pushed. I want to reward players who try.

Ok, that's not what I'm saying but go ahead, I can't stop you but you're not going to stop me scumreading your play either

[Ausuka]

This game feels very bleh right now.

BBT talk to me where are you at

[Ausuka]

This game feels very bleh right now.

BBT talk to me where are you at

Why don't you vote Juice, it will get a bit of momentum going.

Doubt it

[Ausuka]

I mean when I think of things we can do to rejuvenate a game voting a lurker is not particularly high on that list

[Ausuka]

I disagree. I mean, it's certainly reasonable to not townread Juice, but I think having them as your top scumread this early is just safe and boring. They are borderline unreadable at this stage. Later we might have more content, a new player in the slot, whatever.

I'm tired of being told some players are too scummy to be pushed. I want to reward players who try.

Ok, that's not what I'm saying but go ahead, I can't stop you but you're not going to stop me scumreading your play either

I disagree that they're unreadable, I read their posting as scum. I'm townreading quite a few players, so why not vote a low content slot?

I was out today. I'll be able to post more this time tomorrow. In short, Deltawave has been giving some good stuff and I quite like it, enough to unvote. I think Eiralox looks worse from their back and forth and I think the "I faked a read to test reactions" is easily faked and not amazing townplay in any case. BBT is a bit sus but not enough to vote yet. I'll vote Juice because they laughed about being sussed for RVS or something and it was weird.

VOTE: Juice

What do you think of eiralox and bbt now then

[Ausuka]

why would town!juice do that? it doesn't shake out

You could equally ask why scum Juice would do that. It's not good play as either alignment. I have no particular love for that slot and I'm sure they'll probably be eliminated at some point unless there's a replacement but I stand by the idea pushing them as your primary scumread at this point is safe and boring and somewhat scum indicative as a result.

[Ausuka]

That argument makes no sense. Obviously nothing is perfectly scum indicative. By that logic you shouldn't be scumreading Juice. They're just doing whatever they want as well, you just have a cookie cutter idea of what town play looks like.

[Ausuka]

That argument makes no sense. Obviously nothing is perfectly scum indicative. By that logic you shouldn't be scumreading Juice. They're just doing whatever they want as well, you just have a cookie cutter idea of what town play looks like.

I find town easier to recognise than mafia in general.

I mean, this is generally just true because more people are town than mafia. I feel like you're trying to make a point about my play with this but not sure what it is.

[Ausuka]

That argument makes no sense. Obviously nothing is perfectly scum indicative. By that logic you shouldn't be scumreading Juice. They're just doing whatever they want as well, you just have a cookie cutter idea of what town play looks like.

I find town easier to recognise than mafia in general.

I mean, in most cases doesn't recognising town mean you also recognise mafia as its either town or mafia?

Who is town or mafia in this game?

[Ausuka]

I was out today. I'll be able to post more this time tomorrow. In short, Deltawave has been giving some good stuff and I quite like it, enough to unvote. I think Eiralox looks worse from their back and forth and I think the "I faked a read to test reactions" is easily faked and not amazing townplay in any case. BBT is a bit sus but not enough to vote yet. I'll vote Juice because they laughed about being sussed for RVS or something and it was weird.

VOTE: Juice

I think this post is scummy - part of it is just that it feels a bit slimy? But I'm particular I don't get the eiralox read and I think the push on Juice is opportunistic and unlikely to lead to much while being a seemingly safe route for scum - I think town would be more likely to expand on the BBT read or push Eiralox harder since it's more likely to generate AI content at this stage

You may be thinking that he's limbait, but looking into his ISO, is there anything to townread

Juice

for?

No. Juice could definitely be scum. I just think it's weird to pressure there instead of other scumreads at this point. Like, I don't have an issue with compromise eliminating them at some point, but I feel like this game has been lethargic almost from the start and I'm just dubious that this is the road we should be going down right now.

Whatever though. Hopefully this does actually help us sort Juice or whatever.

[Ausuka]

I'm not particularly suspicious of Gandhi. I don't like BBT either. I expect a lot more content than this from him and the fact he's pushing others for the same thing makes me concerned

[Ausuka]

VOTE: hoppip

I wasn't fond of his push on Delta in the first place and I agree his approach to inutile feels somewhat slimy.

Join me Eiralox we will fight the good fight together

[Ausuka]

Spoiler:

Here are some reads of mine.

Consensus (or close to consensus) reads I have:

Frogsterking, Ausuka, Inutile, Hoppip Town

Reads that aren't consensus (I think):

Nuclear Ghandhi Town, Mohab sus, DeltaWave sus

i would rather this not continue to detract from us finding mafias

This has big "how do you do fellow kids" energy

VOTE: Inutile

I sus DeltaWave for this, and I think their delayed omgus style interaction with hoppip (83) also is mafia.

VOTE: DeltaWave

I'd like if you could elaborate on your townreads.

Can you elaborate on your thoughts on 83 as well? I really do not see what you're seeing there

I missed this intially because I posted right after. I townread you for the progression on inutile, it looked natural. Frogsterking is making a lot of reads early on which I usually find towny. Inutile and Hoppip both just seem to have an innocent kind of energy, I can see their approaches to the game being from a town perspective.

83 interested me because DeltaWave says Hoppip is acting sus after their interaction in 82, in which Hoppip said DeltaWave 'shaded Inutile for superficial reasons', which is what it looked like to me as well. Hence I called it a delayed omgus.

Ok, the townreads don't do a lot for me but to be fair it is very early in the game, so

I don't think hoppip was really calling Delta suspicious in post 82. He seemed to be saying that Delta's point is bad but he's not necessarily scum for it. In any case, I'm still not really sure what you mean and why you find it suspicious - it's only one post after so not really delayed, and anyway don't you think town could suspect someone who they're in some sort of confrontation with? The idea of 'delayed omgus' just feels off to me honestly.

Ok, you're right that delayed omgus isn't the right term. It's a knee-jerk reaction nonetheless, it felt to me that DeltaWave didn't want to allow Hoppip to put a bit of sus on them without getting the last word. As to whether or not Hoppip did put sus on DeltaWave, I would argue the answer is yes, whether intentional or otherwise. They said that DeltaWave 'looked bad' to them. So I read into that a bit, I thought DeltaWave looked worse from the whole interaction. I understand your issue with buzzwords like 'omgus', I have the same thing. But in this case I thought it was notable that DeltaWave didn't let it slide, they said they would respond later but made the point of saying that hoppip was being 'somewhat sus'.

Delta wanting to get the last word was interesting to me. Makes it seem like it was for the sake of their ego rather than agenda-driven. I get the feeling that they tend to suspect people based on their own perspective of how Mafia should be played instead of an individual player-to-player basis.

When I get some free time, I'll look through their past games and see if this is something that they can recreate in their scum games.

VOTE: Delta

Doesn't seem like they have any recent completed games, last one was seven years ago. I think it looks pretty bad that they didn't think to mention that a meta dive on their past games would be fruitless and out of date. I think that's worth a pressure vote or two.

Besides, who doesn't love competing wagons?

I should probably elaborate on why I don't like this. The original post he made about Delta was pretty waffly but if anything came down on the side of town Delta. I understand that the wagon on Delta could make town hoppip more likely to vote there but this progression just does not read as natural to me. I don't believe that hoppip believes that delta didn't bring up his absence from the site as like, some sort of scum strategy? And in the absence of evidence that Delta is capable of this, I have to wonder what happened to their original leaning that this is town Delta.

inutile, hutmeil, Mohab500, hopefully you three can vote soon, even if you vote me I think it would be helpful to see where you want to push!

I think hoppip has quite a few posts and questions that are certainly game related but feel more like they're made for the sake of posting than anything else. I think this post is a good example but since everyone has a different view of the gamestate I'd just encourage people to iso him and see if they agree - if a lot of people do this read is probably valid.

[Ausuka]

Initially I gave Juice the benefit of the doubt (late RVS??). Then the slot voted Delta which I town lean, then town reads Ausuka for no given reason.

VOTE: Juice

As for the other slots, I'm willing to give a pass since it's still D1.

This is E-1 (if I counted correctly).

What are your reads on other players

[Ausuka]

Hmm, OK I disagree with this. I thought his post regarding Delta was pretty decent and was something I picked up on initially as well. The 'delayed OMGUS' was a bad term to use, sure, but doesn't negate his point.

Do you disagree that Hoppip calls Delta's post 'bad' and Delta responds by saying Hoppip is 'sus'?

I don't disagree. I am a little baffled by the argument that this is scummy.

[Ausuka]

Why does Delta feel like an easy push? Why can't an easy push still be on scum?

An easy push can absolutely be on scum but an easy push deserves more scrutiny than usual I think

Sorry I know I should probably multiquote here but I'm on mobile so.

[Ausuka]

However, the fact you have now acknowledged this yourself and given the whole 'I dont care if I'm scum read for my outlandish scum read' schtick, I really, really can't emphasise how much I dislike this post.

This is a tell that I used to believe in but it kept being wrong so I don't think it's scummy anymore. It seems like for whatever reason town often play theatrically

[Ausuka]

Juice has popped in thread twice now. Both times they posted regarding something directly related to them and nothing else, this is more than enough justification for a push there. They are not making any attempts to game solve.

Sometimes, scum are just bad.

I don't disagree. I would add that town are sometimes just bad but I think juice is decently likely to be scum here. The issue I have with the Juice push is I think it's boring because they play so blatantly scummy. Nobody is ever going to townread Juice, everyone sees the logic why they can't be allowed to live. That slot never lives to endgame, scum are going to bus them early and probably hard it they are scum, I just think it's a boring push that is safe to make and doesn't really help the game advance.

[Ausuka]

I don't disagree. I am a little baffled by the argument that this is scummy.

I think it's important to note that because this point has been spoken about a few times it feels like a huge thing. It wasn't, and isn't, a big thing for me but I felt like it needed attention drawn to it.

It's scummy because it feels overly defensive. To clarify, I'm not saying defensiveness is scummy in a vacuum, but this defensiveness felt scummy in this particular scenario.

An easy push can absolutely be on scum but an easy push deserves more scrutiny than usual I think

OK, but you can only work with what you're given.

At the very least, pressure on these slots create discussion. If it doesn't, that slot is no use to town even if green and only becomes a liability later in the game. Sort these slots out early.

This is a tell that I used to believe in but it kept being wrong so I don't think it's scummy anymore. It seems like for whatever reason town often play theatrically

This tell is absolutely a thing. Can you just clarify which specific part you are referring to though?

Is it the 'pushing against widely town read players' or is it the reference to their own play?

PEdit - See my post here for further thoughts on Juice, I don't disagree with much that you said.

Again I am on mobile so will answer in a fairly awkward format, let me know if anything needs clarifying.

1) I kind of disagree that it felt scummy, if anything it felt towny to me but you said this isn't a big deal for you so whatever.

2) I don't really agree that pushing on these slots generates discussion, frankly? Well, it generates discussion in some form, but I don't think it's very useful discussion. I think talking more about slots like hoppip would be more helpful because they are capable of towning and removing themselves from the limpool in a way I frankly do not think Juice is.

3) I'm referring to the part where they are super theatrical about how they are playing like town, don't care how they're read or if they die, etc. That seemed to be the core of your read

[Ausuka]

mohab can you give like your actual reads and stuff

[Ausuka]

From where I'm standing juice is town or juice is being bussed hard

Either way I have no desire to end the day here

It's not just juice a lot of people have done nothing. Mohab has done nothing but Wolfy popins and hutmeil's read list was literally just a draft of consensus reads with like no reasoning behind it and he has not done anything really unless someone asked him to

Gandhi has been catching up at a really incredibly slow pace which is like, sure the detail is great and all but there's no reason to still be talking about page 5

Hoppip has done some things to be fair but nothing towny and iirc hasn't been here super recently.

There are definitely town here and unless this contains all 3 or maybe 2 of the scum town will lose this game.

[Ausuka]

It seems like somebody is just trying to jump on a random wagon to me.

is this not exactly what you did

[Ausuka]

It seems like somebody is just trying to jump on a random wagon to me.

is this not exactly what you did

Yes, it is exactly what I did, but I am not trying to act townie or claim that my votes make sense, while greeting is trying to justify their vote for some clearly bullshit reason.

Ok but why are you not trying to act townie and claim that your votes make sense

I am somewhat lost about what you're doing this game, you don't really seem like a troll but you're not playing normally either

[Ausuka]

Like obviously when you do nothing, pop in and vote Juice for no reason and then take it back and vote someone else for popping on Juice that is going to look scummy

IIRC Greeting has been against juice for a while, more than most of the people on the wagon, which makes this more confusing to me

[Ausuka]

Spoiler: frog's survey

"Get angry easily" = 3

"Take charge" = 3

"Make people feel welcome" = 4

"Like music" = 3

"Like to tidy up" = 2

"Like to visit new places" = 5

"Feel comfortable around people" = 2

"Interested in many things" = 2

"Love order and regularity" = 4

"Am afraid to draw attention to myself" = 3

"Enjoy being part of a large crowd" = 1

"Cheer people up" = 2

"Lose my temper" = 3

"Enjoy the beauty of nature" = 5

"Enjoy thinking about things" = 2

"Cheat to get ahead" = 1

"Feel desperate" = 4

"Rarely overindulge" = 3

"Easily resist temptations" = 2

"Have a high opinion of myself" = 2

"Waste my time" = 4

"Need a push to get started" = 2

"Have little to contribute" = 2

"Keep my cool" = 4

"Avoid crowds" = 5

"Turn my back on others" = 3? Not sure what this one is meant to mean

not sure what this will do but i like personality quizzes so!

[Ausuka]

i think this wagon is infested with scum regardless of juice's alignment

[Ausuka]

FWIW I think I see where BBT is coming from overall - scum often do like to avoid 'keeping their hands dirty' on wagons where possible

But also like... look at the wagon composition there. I think hutmeil and hoppip are the most suspicious players in the game right now, they both jumped on the wagon, and there's a serious lack of momentum on doing literally anything else in this game. If they're trying to exploit the (numerous) opportunities to wagon players like hutmeil and Mohab, I think that's an indication probably at least two scum are engaged with this instead.

Also Juice is like, the easiest target ever here. Scum don't even have to justify their vote really because like... come on.

[Ausuka]

What are your reads on other players

Not gonna do a comprehensive one, but here's my readslist:

[Obviously!]

hutmeil

[The they make sense list (at least for me) and are actively trying to solve things]

Frogsterking
inutile
Eiralox
DeltaWave
Ausuka

[The not so active but presented enough information to get a pass on D1]
furtiveglance
Greeting
Nuclear Gandhi
Mohab500
BlueBloodedToffee
hoppip

[Already explained this. Basically, the slot lurks but is good enough for an elim because he has voted and given his read, so we can get some info next day]

Juice

I mean look at hutmeil's ISO and this post in particular

No one is talking about this guy or pushing him

[Ausuka]

Also Juice is like, the easiest target ever here. Scum don't even have to justify their vote really because like... come on.

from my perspective, this is primarily a pressurewagon although i see there was almost a hammer last night. not really happy with that.

I mean, sure. But no one is defending Juice and they were at E-1 with two people declaring intent to hammer. I don't think I'm wrong about what I'm saying.

[Ausuka]

I mean, sure, but given there's not a lot of substance to actually say about Juice's posting beyond pointing out the obvious issues it is difficult to differentiate

I find hutmeil and hoppip suspicious and they were on the wagon, what do you think of them

[Ausuka]

Hoppip is pretty obviously an alt and iirc said so himself

What do you think of the fact that most of what hutmeil has actually done, except the easy Juice vote, has been prompted by someone else

[Ausuka]

@Delta

@hutmeil

@BBT

What do you make of 237?

Interesting that he started his RVS on page 8. It could be he's just getting started.

I'll give the slot the benefit of the doubt but I guess the slot earns some scum points for me.

UNVOTE: juice

Nice. I guess townie points for you. I'm still waiting for your survey though.

What are your reads on other players

Not gonna do a comprehensive one, but here's my readslist:

[Obviously!]

hutmeil

[The they make sense list (at least for me) and are actively trying to solve things]

Frogsterking
inutile
Eiralox
DeltaWave
Ausuka

[The not so active but presented enough information to get a pass on D1]
furtiveglance
Greeting
Nuclear Gandhi
Mohab500
BlueBloodedToffee
hoppip

[Already explained this. Basically, the slot lurks but is good enough for an elim because he has voted and given his read, so we can get some info next day]

Juice

[Ausuka]

I was trying to quote+ and actually make a point in that post. I failed miserably.

Anyway, these posts make up pretty much all of hutmeil's game content. You can see for yourself how reactive it all is. His Juice push originated from Frog, an active player who is probably town, basically suggesting it to him. He made an engagement with frog because frog unvoted after his vote. He made his (pretty empty) readslist basically because I asked him to. None of these are a problem individually, but when you consider this is *pretty much all he does* he comes across as incredibly reactive.

I guess I should check his meta.

[Ausuka]

inutile, hutmeil, Mohab500, hopefully you three can vote soon, even if you vote me I think it would be helpful to see where you want to push!

Will do so later on my laptop. Will reread there and then vote.

Initially I gave Juice the benefit of the doubt (late RVS??). Then the slot voted Delta which I town lean, then town reads Ausuka for no given reason.

VOTE: Juice

As for the other slots, I'm willing to give a pass since it's still D1.

This is E-1 (if I counted correctly).

Oh actually - the Juice vote was because hoppip asked him to as well

[Ausuka]

I checked his meta and while he isn't the most active player - there is *definitely* something missing here.

VOTE: hutmeil

[Ausuka]

Delta wants to hide her Myers-Briggs type

[Ausuka]

I checked his meta and while he isn't the most active player - there is *definitely* something missing here.

VOTE: hutmeil

I get the vote on me sure. Anything I can answer for you to help ease your mind?

I want to acknowledge that I saw this but I think telling you what would ease my mind so you can do those things probably isn't a good idea.

[Ausuka]

My opinion is that hutmeil is scum who is leaning into aspects of their town game quite effectively and not making a lot of obvious mistakes.

tbh hutmeil feels frozen and if he's town then he's kind of an easy target - I would be surprised that mafia didn't target him in that case

[Ausuka]

(since afaik nobody was really pushing hutmeil before I did, although I spent some time waiting to see if it would happen)

[Ausuka]

gonna vote with my gut for now and see how I feel once I read the rest of the game.

VOTE: Ausuka

[Ausuka]

amazing pagetop from me there

[Ausuka]

hoppip seems more town

Why do you think so?

[Ausuka]

tis a little lacking, yes.

Your read? I agree

[Ausuka]

because you're town

[Ausuka]

579 just seemed a bit defensive and aggressive. It's possible that I'm misreading your tone but someone being misread and their response is

your read is lacking

just seems kinda odd to me.

What are your thoughts on my or anyone else's content since your last post?

Sorry your read sucks

I don't have any thoughts I want to share other than the question to Eiralox, otherwise I would have just, like, posted them.

[Ausuka]

^This. After you've put pressure on me, Frog followed suit with unconvincing reasons just to put a vote on me. Trying to test the water perhaps if anyone else will follow suit?

Yeah I have like 6 scum reads and my reasons for voting you look like confbias, so I'm guessing you were one of the slots I was wrong about.

Hmmm okay. Admitting you are wrong seems townie to me.

If Frog is opportunistic scum, wouldn't it make sense for him to pivot out of your wagon once it became clear it didn't have much traction?

[Ausuka]

If Frog is opportunistic scum, wouldn't it make sense for him to pivot out of your wagon once it became clear it didn't have much traction?

Yes that makes sense too. I'm keeping both Frog!Town and Frog!Scum points in mind.

I guess I was wanting to know why you think it's townie of frog with that in mind

[Ausuka]

like this is 625. i dont wanna be thinking about 178 at this point.

The past doesn't get invalidated, not for me at least.
Hmm.. did you sin something in the past?

I think what Eiralox is trying to say is that it's difficult to read you when you are only engaging with things that happened early on in the day

[Ausuka]

(which I would agree with)

[Ausuka]

Oh yeah we have 3 days until eod and I'm pretty sure we still have only had one actual wagon, which is unlikely to go through because it's on the replacement

Egh.

I would be willing to wagon either hutmeil or hoppip. I still think those are our best bets to flip scum today. I think I've largely explained my reasoning but would be happy to engage with anyone about it.

Pedit: are you talking to me

[Ausuka]

VOTE: nuclear Gandhi

Why

[Ausuka]

like this is 625. i dont wanna be thinking about 178 at this point.

The past doesn't get invalidated, not for me at least.
Hmm.. did you sin something in the past?

I think what Eiralox is trying to say is that it's difficult to read you when you are only engaging with things that happened early on in the day

I really wanted to make/give my full thoughts for 1 game, but clearly I'm a bit lacking on the time commitment part.
I do feel like I'd be a productive member of society by Day3 or something, so I'd prefer to keep this up as is. What do you think would be the most productive course of action for me? If I read everything and tried to give my summary - I'd forget 80% of what I read and 99% of my thoughts, if I ever would have them.

I think that the most productive use of your time is to read through the game making notes of the most important things, with less depth. Maybe just make private notes so they don't need to be presentable to others. When you're done, you can form reads using all of the information available and make those arguments to others.

[Ausuka]

Why did eiralox drop from your scum reads? I thought you were town reading hoppip?

Have you gotten me confused with someone else??? I have been vocally townreading eiralox and scumreading hoppip for a long time

[Ausuka]

Why did eiralox drop from your scum reads? I thought you were town reading hoppip?

Have you gotten me confused with someone else??? I have been vocally townreading eiralox and scumreading hoppip for a long time

its possible

This is TvT

I mean, I am explicitly townreading Nero

[Ausuka]

I'm increasingly convinced you haven't actually read any of my posts

[Ausuka]

Hoppip what's your actual read on Hutmeil

Same to delta I guess

I think he's like, really blatantly scummy, and do not understand the general lack of attention to him at all

[Ausuka]

I don't really have a read on MND yet. I get being somewhat frustrated that he's still talking about early game stuff but he just replaced in so.

And I think MND will probably die on d1 and I don't have a massive problem with that - I think it's fairly likely that slot was being bussed. I am a bit frustrated that we have not been able to sustain a proper wagon on any other player in the game, though.

[Ausuka]

why do you townread MND?

pedit: don't think this game would have been fast paced regardless of the deadline

[Ausuka]

While making reads I prioritise intent over tone. MND’s gamesolving intent is evident and sounds genuine. Even though he’s scumreading me.

Like, the fact that I wanted hammer half-way into Day 1, could be, objectively speaking, taken as a scumtell, but its importance is hugely overrated. It’s being talked about as if it was the most important thing I ever did in this game, when in reality nothing happened, and it wouldn’t have happened anyway while the slot was being replaced.

I mean, I think why you were willing to end the day early with a wagon on someone with like 3 posts is a question worth asking.

Anyway, I'm trying to ask where his gamesolving intent is evident? I haven't gotten much of a read out of MND so far.

Also where is mohab lol

[Ausuka]

@Ausuka

Are you open to the idea that hutmeil's townplay has qualities of people pleasing which is the cause of their scummy appearance in this game?

I'd be willing to consider it. I've read his other games to compare, and I don't think his playstyle explains his play here, though. I also think, while people pleasing could explain some of his scummy behaviour, there are other things I scumread that would not be explained by that.

[Ausuka]

Also if Hutmeil is town playing scummy I would be very surprised at the lack of momentum that has built on them

They were playing almost exactly the same way as Juice except like slightly less blatant about it and when Juice was at E 1 no one was even talking about hutmeil

I'm not saying that any particular individual is scum with Hutmeil or something - part of the reason this happened is because Juice was blatant, as I said - but as an overall trend it's concerning that so few people have called him out.

Is hutmeil guaranteed to be scum? No. Is he the most likely to be mafia right now? Imo, definitely.

[Ausuka]

Furtive what are your reads

[Ausuka]

Furtive can you talk about your MND/greeting/hoppip reads

If you don't have much time I'm most interested in the greeting one I think

Pedit: Hutmeil was being sarcastic

[Ausuka]

I'm just confused. Why are you townreading hutmeil when he wasn't in your earlier list of townreads? And the whole move where you propose to vote Hutmeil and then make two new posts saying "no Actually I don't want to do that" just feels... strange.

[Ausuka]

I'm just confused. Why are you townreading hutmeil when he wasn't in your earlier list of townreads? And the whole move where you propose to vote Hutmeil and then make two new posts saying "no Actually I don't want to do that" just feels... strange.

Hutmeil was previously not in the townreads because they did nothing towny. But given the urgency of the situation, I decided to reread their ISO and simplify my read on them to the binary level, and I think they're town. What I really want is for you and Delta to get off Hutmeil, I suppose that was the point to the multiple posts, if there was a point.

Ok, why is he town

[Ausuka]

I really disagree and struggle to see what you're seeing in that

[Ausuka]

I really disagree and struggle to see what you're seeing in that

We're disagreeing about a lot.

What's annoying me is that we're disagreeing, you're scumreading me, but I'm townreading you. I wouldn't blame an observer for scumreading me just based on that. Are you still scumreading me or can you afford me level ground?

I am scumleaning you - you are probably more likely to be town than scum but I think you are >Rand likely to be scum here

[Ausuka]

I just don't really get the hutmeil case. Like I could maybe buy into

he's not being as active as normal

but beyond that its ????

Part of me just feels like voting out MND or Gandhi would be fairly constructive b/c I don't trust Gandhi's

leave me until day 3

and I think MND's plodding catchup is fake.

Ok, I'm going to lay out the case for Hutmeil in this post all together. If it still doesn't go through at least I tried

So, the #1 thing for me is how reactive Hutmeil has been. Almost everything he's done has been *in response* to the actions of someone else, and he's shown very little that looks like genuine scumhunting. In fact, I think unvoting furtive after RVS is one of the only things he's really done proactively and even then you could argue it's just convenient for scum Hutmeil to not be voting anyone.

I'll give examples to demonstrate this point. In 243 Hutmeil begins his push on Juice after being promoted by Frog and encouraged in that direction. Later, in 345 hoppip encourages Hutmeil to place a vote - he quickly responds that he will do so later, and is indeed willing to place an E-1 vote on Juice. I think it's fairly shady how the development of this read was influenced so heavily by others - and it'd be one thing if this was an one time thing, but it's a consistent pattern. He only gives a readlist once I press him for one. He becomes more active after being pressured, and most of this is just responding to people talking to or about him. For example in 525 he's responding to Frog and me, and suggests Frog is scum for pushing him, but in response to Frog changing his read, Hutmeil changes his in turn. I challenge him on it - 613 - in a way that suggests he should still be scumreading Frog . And in reaction to this, hutmeil goes back to scumleaning Frog, and waffles that the action was "townie and scummy at the same time" - given he explicitly made a post calling Frog's change of mind townie, I have a very difficult time buying this. I think again, he is very reactive to the other players of this game, and it does not look like he's making an effort to find scum independently, but rather to avoid making any obvious mistakes and skating by.

Hutmeil displays a lot of conventionally scummy behaviour which I believe is in fact actually scummy. This is definitely similar to the previous point, but there's not much content in his ISO and there's nothing that makes me feel like he's genuinely uninformed and trying to find scum. I believe his readslist post - 408 is a shining example of this. His reads don't have any serious level of thought or depth - players who are active and would make for difficult pushes like me are town, Juice who he has been encouraged to scumread and has been blatantly scummy is his only scumread, and everyone else 'gets a pass' with no real intent to dig into any of their posts or sort them.

There's also some behaviour which I think is waffly in a scummy way. 243 is an early example of this. He calls the post 'interesting', and scumreads it while making sure to emphasise repeatedly how uncertain he is - it feels stilted to me. A much better example comes later in 730 specifically his response to me. There are two things I want to highlight - firstly, he flips on Frog when Frog townreads him (of course this is convenient for scum Hutmeil to do) and when I push him on it he argues it's simeltaneously townie and scummy, and then repeats that line in this post. Frankly I think this is nonsense - if you're conflicted about a post made by someone you scumlean, it doesn't make sense to call that post 'townie' and not elaborate until pressed on it. I think the most simple explanation is that Hutmeil wanted to reconcile with Frog, an active player, to increase his odds of survival, but later believed he couldn't successfully justified this and tried to backtrack a little. It's not a great scum strategy but it makes more sense than any other town explanation.

Some people will probably respond to this by calling a lot of my concerns playstyle. I encourage them to look at hutmeil's completed games as town; they show a lot more independence, genuine scumhunting and overall vigour than he's shown here.

Finally, I want to point out his opportunism. He pushes on Juice when that's the done thing, and seems to move on when it's not. When scum Gandhi is being pushed by a lot of people due to his frustrating playstyle Hutmeil is happy to pile on the pressure. And more recently he's decided to voice a suspicion of Greeting, presumably in preparation to join the wagon. This isn't a massively strong point and I acknowledge all of these players have been scumread fairly widely - but it is convenient for scum Hutmeil that he's always willing and able to jump on the most viable miseliminations.

[Ausuka]

I knew the reference! I haven't played much of the civ games but I'm pretty sure Gandhi has an agenda where he won't like you unless you have nuclear weapons

pedit: I don't have any recent completed games with him but am not completely unfamiliar I guess

Well, that's some good essay writing practice at least.

[Ausuka]

Like basically everyone in the world is townreading Ausuka and I kinda just ignored them for now

wow rude

[Ausuka]

I sort of don't think Furt would blatantly town read his scum buddy but thats maybe a flip we could consider if the game isn't solved after ^ are flipped.

Normally, I would agree that scum are unlikely to townread hut in that way. The way he did it makes me disagree. I think I've already explained why I find it weird. It's possible that, like, Hutmeil was all in the scum PT like "please don't bus me I'll start posting more" and furtive was kind of positioning to bus and then realised he didn't want to do it. It sounds stretchy, and it's probably not exactly what happened, but the staggered way furtive posted that townread makes me think there might be ulterior motives.

[Ausuka]

Sorry Ausuka, this bullshit with MND and Gandhi needs to end today. I'm not waiting until D3 for Gandhi/MND to play like a human.

I don't really get it. Mapuche just replaced in and is broadly fine, Gandhi is basically a garden variety lurker. Sure, we could vote him out but I prefer to vote for the scummy lurker

[Ausuka]

My reads currently are

{Delta, Nero}
{Eiralox, Frog}
{Gandhi, greeting, mapuche}
{BBT, Crescent, furtive}
{hoppip}
{hutmeil}

[Ausuka]

I'm interested to know what you think my playstyle is?

People pleasing? Hmmm, I don't know maybe it's just difference in cultures. From where I'm from we try to be accommodating and polite as possible. But that's RL. Maybe next time it shouldn't spill over in-game since it seems to be misconstrued as scummy behavior.

I mean, I'm not calling you scum for people pleasing. And I don't have much sense of your playstyle, this is my first time playing with you.

I'm at E-1 now, happy?

Yes!

I agree that I've been reactive this game. I don't think that's AI though? What's wrong with watching how the game goes to see who's scummy and who's not without talking much?

It's scummy because I don't think you were doing much of 'seeing who's scummy and who's not' - for most of the game you've just been blending in and making few waves, not really scumhunting.

Pushed and encouraged? If you read that post, there's no pushing or encouragement there, just a question for 3 people which I answered.

I think we both know that isn't all that was going on there. Frog was directly asking you and others to comment on what was on the surface a very scummy post for Juice. Frog and Delta both made noises indicating they found it scummy. The 'scum points' you replied with is the natural conclusion of what Frog's asking. There isn't anything wrong with this independently but it contributes to a worrying trend in which, again, you look more interested in blending in and not making waves than finding scum.

Juice was scummy. Others found him scummy too. What's wrong with voting the scummiest read you have? Sure I reacted to hoppip's post but so what? He asked me to do something and I obliged. I guess I could have been more proactive but I don't think proactive = town. My last game, one of the most proactive players was scum. So no, proactive is not AI.

Yes, other people found Juice scummy. That's what makes them such an easy target. I think consistently not being proactive is AI, yes. Nothing is a perfect indicator, and very proactive people are only somewhat more likely to be town than moderately proactive people, but if someone is constantly focusing their play around how others interact with them and view them, I'm going to scumread that. Again - I read your previous games to check and I didn't get this same feeling there.

Again, with all due respect, I don't think being reactive is AI. So when you ask me a readlist and I give you one, that's fine right (I mean you ask me for something and I oblige, I deserve a thank you, no??).

I think that as a broader trend it is - or more precisely, lack of proactiveness is scummy. Reacting to questions is fine, but when your content all comes at the prompting of someone else, that's concerning. I'd be less worried about it if your readslist was good!

About that Frog exchange, I guess I better clarify since you've been reading it wrong. What I'm trying to say there is that both Frog!Town and Frog!Scum have reason to unvote. Frog!Town unvoting and admitting he was wrong makes sense since why vote for someone if you are wrong about that slot? Frog!Scum unvoting could be as you said an opportunistic move (to go look for a better wagon). So what I'm trying to say is Frog's action was NAI. I was just pointing out the 2 sides of the coin.

Ok, but originally you called it 'townie'. That is not NAI. You went back on it when pressed and this doesn't really explain why.

I like that you said this. I wanted to see how people react to a 'shitty' readlist as you said. But having said that, I'm updating it to show how I read people now seeing that it looks like I'm about to be eliminated (E-1).

Eh... I'm kind of struggling to see why you would intentionally make a shitty readslist, and not really talk about it until now.

I agree that I look scummy.

This concerns me as well because this isn't the vibe I get from the rest of your post - you seem borderline indignant that I'm scumreading you at times.

I don't know what's wrong with that? That's just me thinking out loud. Was looking at Scum!Juice and Town!Juice.

I suppose there's nothing inherently wrong with it if you're town but it came off as hedgey and performative to me. All reads are uncertain, especially this early, so putting the emphasis on how uncertain you are rather than the read, and repeating yourself in this regard, feels off.

Meta is good but can be manipulated. You can play one way one game and play it differently in another.

Sure - but I don't see why town you would manipulate your meta here?

This is taken out of context. Everyone is scum reading him because he was blatantly scummy. When he was replaced, the logical thing to do was unvote to give the replacement a chance to redeem the slot.

Sure, that's fine. But I would have expected to see more of a focus on Mapuche from someone who was scumreading Juice exclusively for most of the game.

This is me being proactive. This is me giving out information without being prodded. So you find me scummy for being reactive and proactive???

No, I don't think making one scumread, which goes along with the trend of the thread, after already having been called out for not scumhunting proactively, is enough to count as proactive.

I mean, if you're town and genuinely feel cornered here, sorry. There's no perfect tell but I think you're our best shot at flipping scum today.

[Ausuka]

Don't think inutile was scum, don't think Nero replaces in and starts pushing me in the way he did either

Also, since when is mohab a townlock lol

[Ausuka]

Don't think inutile was scum, don't think Nero replaces in and starts pushing me in the way he did either

Also, since when is mohab a townlock lol

?

I locktowned Mohab in my first post. strange that you missed it?

I thought that you were joking because townlocking Mohab is really silly

[Ausuka]

I'm content with my D1 vote so..
That's my today's input.

[Ausuka]

Are people really townreading that "well actually my readslist was intentionally terrible" post

[Ausuka]

I would prefer both greeting and bbt to no lim

I think I'd prefer bbt if I had to choose, he has done basically nothing for most of the game and I'm underwhelmed extremely

[Ausuka]

There have been a lot of lurkers but I expect better from BBT I guess

[Ausuka]

I like that you said this. I wanted to see how people react to a 'shitty' readlist as you said.

What else does this mean

[Ausuka]

Definitely possible, but I didn't really see anything in his ISO indicating this, and it looks made up. Hutmeil doesn't seem that weird. I'd at least want a more in depth explanation of what he was hoping to achieve and how he was thinking about the situation before writing 850.

I don't like the updated reads, really. It's better than what he did before for sure, but that's a low bar. The reads are easily faked and I don't really find them impressive.

[Ausuka]

guys. the deadline is in 14 hours. guys

[Ausuka]

Ok uh rn it's
Hutmeil on 5
Greeting on 3
Mapuche on 2
Bbt on 1

[Ausuka]

I will admit I am troubled by BBT's vote

[Ausuka]

Anyways, this is my Day 1 final PoE.

hutmeil
hoppip
Eiralox
Mohab500

Left out

Mapuche Never Die

and

Nuclear Gandhi

because both of them produced sufficient amounts of good content.

I am happy to eliminate anyone out of these four really and

hutmeil

is a good candidate. I don't think I really need to expand on the

hutmeil

case as everything has been said. His only case was Juice, and when he got replaced, he didn't build a second one.

@

Nero Cain

: if anyone is actively lurking this game, especially since Juice's replace-out, I would say it's

hutmeil

.

This is bad. Anyone clearing gandhi and mapuche above mohab and me auto sus, first off. Someone earlier said your reads are consensus and lurker-bases(earlier ones) and this is very blatant here. The fact that hoppip and gandhi are sorta contenders to me for being town, and the fact that crescent is town, makes me feel even worse about your selections here.

In what world has gandhi produced sufficient content>????


My feel of greeting is they aren't sorting people by likelihood to be scum but by likelihood to be elimmed, which is not a town play. You don;t even mention toffee here and that's bad. Yeah i'm pretty sure: greeting isn't really curious about ppls alignmnets.

u accuse me of being disruptive but going thru ur iso, which i invite others to do, u haven't been disruptive at all. Your posts are more soft commentary than actual hunting way i read it. I feel you are worried way more about your positioning than actually solving the game.

Intent to hammer juice and now the hutmeil vote....... yep. and then mapuche better than four/five others? after u were willing to hammer there?

going for consensus townreads and then pushing places were u think the elims will be easy. i might start building a bigger case here considering hutmeil's predicament.

Ok I'm reading through the reasoning for Greeting again and like... The only consensus scumread here would be Hutmeil. Hoppip has been pressured by like... Pretty much just me actually. No one is really suspecting the Mohab slot, and you are *far* from a consensus read here. Gandhi and Mapuche are not safe or consensus townreads to take. Like, this is not a list of the people most likely to be elimmed at all, actually.

Greeting could be scum anyway potentially given the intent to hammer, and I'm not opposed to that if we can't get Hutmeil before deadline, but I don't understand this reasoning

[Ausuka]

Vote Count 1.7

Mapuche Never Die (4): DeltaWave, hoppip, BlueBloodedToffee, Nero Cain
Greeting (3): Mohab500, Eiralox, Nuclear Gandhi
hutmeil (1): Ausuka
DeltaWave (1): Mapuche Never Die
Nuclear Gandhi (1): Frogsterking
Frogsterking (1): furtiveglance

Not Voting: Greeting, hutmeil

With 13 alive it takes 7 votes to forcibly remove a player.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-08-28 15:00:00)

Mod notes:
Greeting is V/LA until Saturday

I appreciate that Mapuche is playing, but I'm still gonna keep my vote there for now. I don't like the other leading wagon and the vanity wagons are yuck besides hutmeil's.

Hoppip where are you

Why is greeting wagon yuck

[Ausuka]

I was asking hoppip because that's what he said earlier

[Ausuka]

people are looking for an easy answer and hutmeil ain't it. the greeting wagon isn't yuck btw, the hutmeil wagon is yuck: it has greeting and bbt.

I'm mystified by both frogster and ausuka these past few pages.

I'm mystified why you ignore my reasons and just call Hutmeil "feels town" and expect me to just go along with it?

Do you think Hutmeil isn't pushing the people who are easy to scumread? Really?

[Ausuka]

Acting as if I'm just "looking for an easy answer" is absolutely absurd

I've done the legwork to justify what I'm saying, I've explained my reasoning, absolutely nothing about what I've done is easy

What would have been easy is just going along with the Juice wagon when they were being wagoned for doing the same shit as Hutmeil and hutmeil got zero attention

[Ausuka]

@Crescent

I mean you said you were ignoring me seems fair to return the favour ^.^

In any case, the context was that I was pushing hoppip earlier and tried to justify it but no one was interested. Do you think I purposefully left out your questioning to some nefarious end?

[Ausuka]

If Frog is opportunistic scum, wouldn't it make sense for him to pivot out of your wagon once it became clear it didn't have much traction?

Yes that makes sense too. I'm keeping both Frog!Town and Frog!Scum points in mind.

I guess I was wanting to know why you think it's townie of frog with that in mind

Given both points, his action is both townie and scummy at the same time.

However, right now he's been wagon-hopping so I'm scum leaning him at the moment. I know that's NAI (I've seen this in another game and the slot turned out Town) but that's how it feels to me right now.

admittedly, there was some skimming involved but I was able to read the whole game last night,

My worry here is that Gandhi is "perpetually behind" as a scum tactic rather than actually just being too lazy/busy to catch up.

^This. I actually feel the same way. The way he formats his replies bugs me too (sorry Gandhi!). It's a pain to see because of the spacing (or the lack thereof) and I'm wondering if this is a scum tactic to simply look "helpful" with loads of info but is simply buying time.

I mean look at this post

I'm not going to act like it never comes from town - of course it's possible for town to be suspicious of the most widely suspected players! - but how can you argue that Greeting pushing Eiralox and Mohab is just 'looking for the easy pushes' as if that's not exactly what Hutmeil is actually doing

[Ausuka]

I mean zzz I'm not even townreading Greeting it just annoys me when people dismiss my reasoning so easily

My issue is that from what I've read Greeting doesn't tend to play this way as either alignment most of the time so I'm more thinking that's down to the vla and even with the vla I think his posting is at least better than hutmeil's

I wouldn't hate a last minute elim on bbt or greeting but I would definitely want a Hutmeil wagon d2 if I die

[Ausuka]

I didn't say the wagon was yuck, hoppip did

The wagon quality is eh. I townread Eira, not really on the other three

[Ausuka]

people are looking for an easy answer and hutmeil ain't it. the greeting wagon isn't yuck btw, the hutmeil wagon is yuck: it has greeting and bbt.

I'm mystified by both frogster and ausuka these past few pages.

I'm mystified why you ignore my reasons and just call Hutmeil "feels town" and expect me to just go along with it?

Do you think Hutmeil isn't pushing the people who are easy to scumread? Really?

i'm tired. do as u please. i warned you.

i will, thanks for your permission

[Ausuka]

Do you think being at a middle point between their existing town games is actually scum indicative for eiralox or am I misunderstanding

[Ausuka]

Deadline got extended by 6 hours

[Ausuka]

Vote Count 1.9

hutmeil (5): Ausuka, DeltaWave, Greeting, Mapuche Never Die, Frogsterking
Greeting (4): Crescent, Eiralox, Nuclear Gandhi, furtiveglance
Mapuche Never Die (3): hoppip, BlueBloodedToffee, Nero Cain

Not Voting: hutmeil

With 13 alive it takes 7 votes to forcibly remove a player.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-08-28 20:45:00)

Mod notes:
Greeting is V/LA until Saturday
I may be at EPCOT when deadline comes so you may get extended twilight

[Ausuka]

Fwiw I am willing to hammer Greeting if need be. I think that slot still has an ok chance of being red even though I think there are several better eliminations today. I should be around for about five hours from now.

[Ausuka]

I support the comedy option

[Ausuka]

I am sort of concerned about how little townreads I have TBH

Like I think Eiralox, Crescent, Nero, Frog, and Delta are town

Everyone else is null or below and that is probably bad

[Ausuka]

How have I not been casing people exactly Greeting

[Ausuka]

Ok well the first part of hutmeil's post seems town and the rest seems really scummy

[Ausuka]

Well, this is just to generate discussion/reaction really. For example, if someone likes my ugly readslist then that slot would be sus for me.

Ok this feels fake as fuck.

The whole I agree with my elimination thing is also kinda :v

This relates to something I talked about earlier; he really pushed back against my read on him, and seemed fairly irritated, but at the same time said he was being scummy on purpose and understood my read on him. Now he's talking about supporting his own elimination while also voting on Greeting. I feel like there's some dissonance here.

[Ausuka]

and the rest seems really scummy

Why? I'm willing to be a miselim for the sake of Town getting more information?

Or are you referring to something else?

I think I explained it in my last post, but I don't see a coherent motivation in your actions and I don't really think you adequately explained what on earth would drive you to make a terrible readslist on purpose. I also think that if that was the case, you would have approached it in a different way, and wouldn't have said the line along the lines of "you should be thanking me for making a readslist when you asked me to."

[Ausuka]

Iirc how to read Nero is that as town he's aggressively pushing things that often don't make sense whereas as scum he is more willing to not draw too much attention and watch Rome burn

I also think inutile was town

[Ausuka]

Oh and also I don't really think scum Nero comes into the game pushing me in the way he did

[Ausuka]

Yup!

Ok but you say you were being intentionally scummy

How are you going to be scummy on purpose, purposefully write bad posts as a gambit and then get mad when people scumread you - while also saying your elimination is good for town

It makes no sense

[Ausuka]

If eliminating me will push the game state forward then by all means elim me (miselim).

But of course, since I'm VT, I feel conflicted about this since the game is about hunting/eliminating scum, not eliminating Town.

Ok great but you said "I agree with my elimination" and discussed self hammering earlier. That's a much harder stance than "if eliminating me will push the gamestate forward then fine." I'd be more willing to chalk it up to a mistake in wording if this was only one line but you seem to have gone repeatedly back and forth on this issue

[Ausuka]

I don't really think you adequately explained what on earth would drive you to make a terrible readslist on purpose.

I don't think you read my recent post but I made it to get information on D1. It's D1 so getting info by any means possible is good (at least for me).

I read your post but I just do not think this explanation makes sense. Like I guess it's not impossible, but I really don't understand why town would genuinely decide that the best way to get information is to be intentionally scummy and then get irritated when people scumread you for being scummy

[Ausuka]

Ok but this isn't a normal situation. You have been scummy purposefully. You tot explicitly what you wanted in this scenario

[Ausuka]

I have never heard of slayer's gambit and while I have seen something similar to this in the past - albeit very rarely - I don't really get the sense that this from Hutmeil is genuine, personally.

[Ausuka]

Why do I get the feeling that you're pushing me to hammer myself?

I mean you explicitly asked me what I found scummy about your post

And ok but like surely you realise there are other ways to get reactions than just playing like scum

[Ausuka]

W/e I will stop spamming the thread up and let over people give responses to this because it is possible I have some bias at this point

[Ausuka]

Hmm

I kind of believe the role and don't think it would be a fake claim, but is possible greeting has a similar mafia role

Why did you want to be hammered if you're a gooncop

[Ausuka]

don't think mafia claim roles like disloyal simple cop in practice and it's the sort of thing that's in vogue in the normal queue at the minute

[Ausuka]

don't think mafia claim roles like disloyal simple cop in practice and it's the sort of thing that's in vogue in the normal queue at the minute

to be clear, if greeting is like, mafia disloyal simple cop or even something like mafia disloyal complex gunsmith I think I could see it

[Ausuka]

-.-

[Ausuka]

I literally say I'm inclined to believe your claim but no apparently me asking literally anything is bullshit??? Like genuinely what did I even do, not townlock you? Like I'm sorry but you just have not been that towny

[Ausuka]

I mean all those things are obviously possibilities

The vt thing does cross my mind but the amount of stress he put on how he's ok with being elimmed cos he's just a simple VT kind of cancelled that out for me

[Ausuka]

I mean, I don't think you should hammer

I am not a player who uses associatives very often and if Greeting is scum I don't think we lose a lot by letting him live for a little while longer

If Greeting is town we get some results which could be useful or force mafia to kill a potential miselim

[Ausuka]

I went and had a look at some fairly recent normal games to see what mafia who get elimmed d1 tend to claim

It seems like they claim VT fairly often although this is subject to survivorship bias because there will be mafia who claimed PR and didn't get elimmed because of that and I'm not enough of a tryhard to read these games in depth

Honestly my biggest takeaway is how many scum just didn't claim before dying.

Even so mafia claiming VT day 1 is still a thing that happens I guess.

[Ausuka]

you do it smh

[Ausuka]

who put crescent in a freezer

[Ausuka]

Hutmeil probably flips town but I don’t think there was any alternate option

I mean maybe, day 1 elims are never that likely to be scum, from my current perspective I still think hutmeil is more likely to flip scum than anyone else in the game

If hutmeil does flip scum this post is probably minus associative

[Ausuka]

oh ok cool

[Ausuka]

i think i'm like in the 50-60% range maybe

[Ausuka]

dw I will if I still have credibility (or one of us gets vigged in which case, lol good luck guys)

[Ausuka]

alternatively you could just like vig hoppip. i think that's a great idea actually

[Ausuka]

Credibility is kind of a sham concept.

True

[Ausuka]

I don't think it matters who you vote at this point

Tomorrow is a new day

[Ausuka]

I agree that if Hutmeil reds there is a very good chance scum bussed

I will need to reread but if furtive is town the greeting wagon was probably town driven and a scenario where town won't let scum bus is hardly unprecedented

[Ausuka]

Ok so I was like convinced Eiralox and Crescent we're masons lole

In my defense I was scumleaning mohab before that

What on earth was that townlocking shit if it wasn't that

[Ausuka]

Don't think inutile was scum, don't think Nero replaces in and starts pushing me in the way he did either

Also, since when is mohab a townlock lol

Don't think inutile was scum, don't think Nero replaces in and starts pushing me in the way he did either

Also, since when is mohab a townlock lol

?

I locktowned Mohab in my first post. strange that you missed it?

Don't think inutile was scum, don't think Nero replaces in and starts pushing me in the way he did either

Also, since when is mohab a townlock lol

?

I locktowned Mohab in my first post. strange that you missed it?

I thought that you were joking because townlocking Mohab is really silly

i disagree. mohab/crescent is town.

This definitely read like a soft to me

Would be interested in hearing what on earth eiralox was talking about

[Ausuka]

VOTE: eiralox

[Ausuka]

VOTE: eiralox

shit ausuka at least do me the decency of building a proper case, like no one has done, cos honestly at this point i'm starting to get pissed by how a lot of people are looking for easy pushes. Both mohab and Crescent felt gut town to me, what else can I say? Greeting was/is very scummy, so that's where I pushed. I mean with the NK being on greeting wagon and with bbt, who pushed hutmeil with you, voting on me, i'm surprised by your vote.

Someone earlier called ausuka/eirlaox so i'm curious what's up with you.

what's up with me is that I asked you to justify your mohab "locktown" and you did your best to completely avoid the topic. you told me mohab slot was town like it was a fact when I was suspicious there, and then came into the thread whining about "easy pushes" as if you'd been hoping to come into today pushing everyone who scumread Hutmeil and the vig caught you off guard and all you can do is deflect. If you are town who got it 100% wrong on Mohab from the very start while never giving any explanation I would expect a much less aggressive attitude.

[Ausuka]

Also the attitude of "scum is definitely on the d1 wagon" feels like something that would be pushed by someone who deliberately avoided the d1 wagon.

I really don't think Greeting is a wolf here. Given that, I have no reason to think scum would be especially enthusiastic to jump on Hutmeil. In fact perhaps they'd prefer to avoid keeping their hands dirty if possible.

[Ausuka]

Like if someone is "gut town" why do you repetitively call them "lock town" and push back against suspicion of them so strongly

I really don't think it makes sense to handle a gut read that way. It does seem like you were trying to mason soft.

[Ausuka]

Another thing - I don't like how you gloss over Crescent's push on Greeting here.

[Ausuka]

So you locktowned mohab because you agreed with one of her reads and you have the audacity to lecture me

[Ausuka]

man who cleared mohab says what

[Ausuka]

Yes you did make a mistake so would it kill you to not be so incredibly condescending to anyone who voted for a townie on d1

[Ausuka]

man who cleared mohab says what

yeah this is the exact level of eloquence and game-awareness i'm expecting from people who are happy to push through two miss-elims head on head.

Yeah I'd be happy to miselim you because you are making this game insufferable to play in

[Ausuka]

Obviously making a mistake isn't the part that's insufferable. The part that's insufferable is that you feel the need to lecture and insult everyone else as if you're some sort of fucking paragon. You're not.

[Ausuka]

I am not saying there are zero scum on the Hutmeil wagon. I am saying that the Hutmeil/Greeting situation was likely two town wagons and therefore scum probably didn't give a shit which one went through. See also: Crescent not giving a shit which one went through.

[Ausuka]

UNVOTE:

I will come back when I am calmer. I have not had a good day and reading insults sent me off.

[Ausuka]

I feel confident in saying investigate does resolve on Crescent. Because someone dies doesn't mean actions fail on them, so killing actions resolving first doesn't matter.

I think this is +town for Delta probably.

[Ausuka]

For whatever it's worth I would like to hear from hoppip. I think Crescent's insistence that everyone knows she was pressuring hoppip looks bad for him and he hasn't been around for a very long time.

[Ausuka]

Shrug, voting town on d1 is normal and you did it too, I don't feel that it's so awful

Also I had literally just woken up to a scumflip, why would you expect me to have reads ready instantly

[Ausuka]

Also I had literally just woken up to a scumflip, why would you expect me to have reads ready instantly

everyone else did.

Well maybe I'm just built different but I'm not going to think too hard about a mafia game at 6am

[Ausuka]

And also like, I think waiting for eiralox to reply to my question before I did much else was very reasonable in any case

[Ausuka]

I'm not going to think too hard about a mafia game at 6am

Why did you get on and sign in if you didn't want to think about the game?

because I can?

[Ausuka]

I read the game and explained what I did because that required like literally zero critical analysis or thought on my part. I was repeating information I already knew

[Ausuka]

???