Mini Normal 2283 - Mafia PT

[Frogsterking]

Get ready for some of the worst setup spec you've ever seen.

This is a tier list which was added to the Normals recently.

Strong: these roles will almost always significantly help the town, in pretty much any context. You'd expect to see these roles be gated, appear in small numbers, or be balanced out by mafia roles.

Cop, Watcher,

Vigilante

,

Gunsmith

, Neapolitan, PT Cop, Traffic Analyst, Jailkeeper, Alien

Moderately strong: these roles will usually contribute significantly, and generally have certain cases where they are comparably powerful to the top roles (and cases where they don't pan out). They can appear in a variety of setups.

Tracker, Follower, Psychologist, Detective, Roleblocker, Doctor, Rolestopper

Medium: these roles are useful, and adding them to a setup will pretty much always help the town, but are also very limited in their capacity to affect the game and are not really capable of swinging it hugely in town's favor.

Mason, Innocent Child, Friendly Neighbor, Universal Backup, Reporter, Vengeful, Babysitter, Bodyguard

Mild: these roles can have impact, but it's expected that in many games, their impact will be incidental, they require interactions with other roles to be useful, or they provide just a small amount of insight into the game. Reviewers will sometimes suggest adding one of them to tip the balance slightly, and you can usually add them to setups without them changing much.

Motion Detector, Shield, Role cop, Hider, Commuter, Vanilla Cop, Security Guard, Finder, Role Watcher, Voyeur, Inspector

Nil: these roles are typically not expected to help the town, unless there is some specific setup aspect that is designed to make them useful. They may still be powerful if given certain modifiers (for example, "loyal neighborizer" would probably be fit to place in the highest tier).

Neighborizer, Visionary, Fruit Vendor, Checker, Mailman, Neighbor, Encryptor, Miller, Visitor

I bolded the two at the top because Mafia Doctor implies town has Vig and/or GS (GS doesn't guilty mafia doctors.) I don't think we would have a doctor if Town didn't have at least one or the other if not both because it would be considered trolling us by the review team.

I doubt that Town has any protectives because

#1 it would conflict with me in a mass claim because if we all were townsided then it would be gamebreaking
#2 we don't have a roleblocker to stop follow-the-cop play

That makes me think Town has a couple strong investigatives including GS, a Vig, and a weaker role which does something different from a mailman.

This is what I'm picturing:

Vig
GS
Follower (or something similar in that tier)
Inspector (or something similar in that tier)
A bunch of VTs

That way the balance team can feel good because if there's a mass claim for whatever reason we can all claim our roles and it won't be super obvious who is lying.

[Frogsterking]

Oh yeah, part of the reason I think our roles are likely to be super claimable is that we have no way of understanding what's out there (like a watcher) so it's logical that Town doesn't have anything which would obviously contradict us in a mass claim. I know that's something they consider when approving setups for Normals.

[Frogsterking]

I'm sure there is some information about how to use the mailman role available online but I just grabbed the LHF for now from the wiki:

Since the power of Neighborizer itself is dependent on the player's skill, a Mailman's value is even more dependent on the player's skill or the value of the information the player has at its disposal.

As their Night Choice, a Mailman chooses a message to send, and a player to send it to. At the end of the Night, the moderator will then send the message to the player in question. There is no word limit on the message, but it must be a single message.

Mailman messages should be formatted in such a way as to make it clear that the message comes from a Mailman and is not mod-confirmed information. However, the author should not be confirmed by the moderator either (it's legal for a player to claim an identity in the message, but also to lie about their identity in the message).

So main takeaways from wiki are:

-leverage our info (scum doctor biggest clue probably)
-no word limit
-mod won't endorse any of it but they will deliver it which gives it some authority
-can lie through our teeth if we want

There are a few things I can add from studying this kind of stuff:

-the players who are messaged earlier (N1 > N2 > N3 etc. ) will be more open to being persuaded than players who are messaged later
-longer and detailed message with thought behind it is more likely to be viewed as credible and followed up on
-any kind of risky, gambit-type suggestions in the message are unlikely to be followed up on
-aggressive or militaristic or whatever plans are unlikely to be viewed as credible or followed up on.
-Abrasive or curt can still work and get compliance if the requests are percieved as reasonable.
-my first thought is that reciprocity and scarcity can be applied in a i-can-only-message-one-person-tonight-and-i-chose-you kind of way

[Frogsterking]

@mod

Is it possible to get a discord scum chat?

[Frogsterking]

Claims and strategy thoughts:

-scum doctor / frog

I think the obvious implication with a scum doctor is that I use the ability to protect one of you from a vig and/or I function like a Godfather in Normal against a GS. I think we know there is a high chance of a vig and they are likely to shoot someone like NM, a lurker, Enchant or anyone else who is difficult to read or not active in the thread. It would be great if we ended the Day with none of us in that category of a player who is likely to get vigged, because then I can use my ability like a real doctor on some obv town we aren't killing and that might cause us to randomly win the game later if a TPR "confirms" what I was doing (rather than lose randomly because they confirm I WASN'T where I should have been.) I am going to breadcrumb doc from the get go and maybe hunt for the investigatives so I "know who to protect," because I really don't believe Town has a real protective considering our roles.

-messenger / eiralox

I know you can be verbose and stylized and that's going make you good for your role. BBT and I can help look for opportunities during the day of who might be a good target. I think if you just send a really credible message with some reads and an FoS (and maybe request that they do something for us the next day to make sure they're pocketed) and DON'T tell them who you are but let it be kind of obvious anyway, then later in the game like in lylo you can claim messenger and they'll be like "oh yeah i knew it was him" and you're off the hook (cause your message was obv town and they're ego locked because they did what it said.) I'd expect mostly the N1 and N2 targets have the best chance to get pocketed, so it might be worth just following up with one of them N3/N4. If you write the draft during D1 for the N1 message and post it here in the chat then BBT and I can help with the editing/suggestions while we play.

-vanilla / BBT

I think VT is a good claim because it will sound believable and you can get "confirmed" by a role cop or simple checker or some shit. I think VT is also a good claim in general provided you have a couple townies willing to go to bat for you because it can strengthen their town read on you when you claim it. You're good about asking questions and following up in your town meta so I think if you question a few people really hard and follow up with it later that might net you some townreads and won't look like your doing anything out of the ordinary other than having a good game. I feel like the only reason you got pushed from what I've seen is that your post count looks low from the activity overview. If you like interrogate someone with a bunch of follow up questions it will pad your post count and won't look sus as long as they're pointed questions and you post some takeaway on it later.

My big question though is who would send in the night kill? It doesn't really work with any of our claims if we get spotted.

[Frogsterking]

I added you, but I also realized I can drop an invite link: https://discord.gg/2bmcgJnp

Thank you!

@Eiralox @BBT

I've been using discord on my tablet which I don't have right now. If I can't get it back tomorrow I'll install it on something else.

[Frogsterking]

might fakeclaim 1-shot bulletproof fruit vendor if under pressure before claiming mailman, asking mail receivers to act as if i'm a vendor (BP claim subject to scrutiny, not adding to night messages maybe,,,, depending on later and heals well see,,,,, ) i think i can spin the fakeclaim as: scum less likely to nk vendor than mailman, and depending on mail target efficacy, ill havetown folk backing me up after iu reveal it's fake,

I love it!

[Frogsterking]

ii played a game with him, read another game with him. if i understood his mind i would share it better with you. If i gave you a generic profile i would say expect him to go back and forth very fast and be very invested into reads one moment and then move just as quickly to something else, and that his reasoning and logic are very hard to tract often.

I would say maybe best way to find him to be town because i haven't seen his scum game is probably his lack of care of how he is perceived and this early game interactions def gives me feeling he is caring how he looks. idk too early to tell. Early gut scum feels.

This is a bald-faced freaking lie. Fire knows exactly what my scum game looks like: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=88946

I got you some good material. Fire kinda fucked up and now we both look like dingbats.

[Frogsterking]

I'm hoping someone will say we look TvT

[Frogsterking]

oof

What's up?

[Frogsterking]

i really dont like ur early townreads on frogsterking and Eiralox

If we're lucky, this causes her to double down on her reads.

[Frogsterking]

I'm getting my tablet tomorrow by the way, sorry for the delay.

[Frogsterking]

Slight TPR read on Solway Firth.

low

certainty.

[Frogsterking]

I don't think I'll be mailbombing Solway, Grib or Firebringer, therefore I'm inclined to include them as early NK candidates. Don't know what ya'll think.

Hmmm wait... I think of the three I might remove Grib from that list, will observe. Solway and Fire seem way to sharp for me to see the value of a N1 communikay

Fair. I have a fantasy that Solway will get run up randomly and claim Vig or something. He reminds of NDMath.

I can see either way with Grib, he seems smart but vulnerable to AtE

[Frogsterking]

I don't even remember whether I have any completed forum scum games btw..... if I have they are from 2016. and off-site amateurish and probably 2 at most, at a stretch. probably one or none. So honestly...... if ya'll see me acting in a dumb manner, freely point it out. I might be the weakest link here page-wise, so depending on levels of sus I can do NK's so that Blue can claim VT if wished, and so that Frogster can safely parade as Town Doc.

It seems like you've found your lane.

[Frogsterking]

I don't even remember whether I have any completed forum scum games btw..... if I have they are from 2016. and off-site amateurish and probably 2 at most, at a stretch. probably one or none. So honestly...... if ya'll see me acting in a dumb manner, freely point it out. I might be the weakest link here page-wise, so depending on levels of sus I can do NK's so that Blue can claim VT if wished, and so that Frogster can safely parade as Town Doc.

It seems like you've found your lane.

I like that you're going back and forth with BBT by the way, it looks like something I would see and go "looks like TvT"

[Frogsterking]

I guess I'll go ahead and answer it that way, because if that isn't it either then I really can't imagine what you actually want from me.

Individually, they aren't slam-dunk scumtells. They're quirks in his play that actively caught my attention and made me think that he wasn't approaching the game as a villager because of how many wires he tripped (for me). 1 is a BS reason to vote someone period (slightly scummy), 2 is him ruining his own alleged gambit (his read probably isn't genine), 3 is making up a reason to scumread someone (same reason as 2), 4 circles back to 2 and makes it even less of a genuine gambit, and 5 is kind of a classical/general scumtell.

Grib is smart

Anyway, turns out Frog is probably just a goofball and was acting out an obscure inside joke? I dunno, I buy it for now.

Grib is vulnerable to AtE

[Frogsterking]

yeah dont really agree with any of that and I think the claim that "frog is just a goofball" was pretty readily available when you posted the original thing.

Thanks for the townsend, Shea.

[Frogsterking]

Frog are you aware you left both Eira and myself off your reads list?

Yup

[Frogsterking]

Shea made a logical fallacy by the way he said
"Town are more interested in engaging with the meat of a post than winning an argument" he's shit pushing you right now and it can cost him his Townreads if you play it right IMO. Your defensiveness looks like a townie who was wrongly accused right now.

[Frogsterking]

The funniest part is that my post to Eira is obviously a S/S interaction and I don't think TSQ will ever consider that

I was wondering about that. I feel like there's a chance I would misattribute it as TvT if I were Town which would be a disaster for my PoE. I don't think I would pick it out as S/S if I were Town.

[Frogsterking]

Yeah, I'll let him have his fun. I don't think he is doing particularly well at the moment.

You should post that in thread about logical fallacy and I can 180 on my read on you as well.

I flung my "bomb" at him as Bell would call it. I asked you to fill out my survey but I feel like it would be out of character for you to do that. I'll probably answer your questions later tonight.

[Frogsterking]

I also have my tablet now and I'll log into the discord later as well.

[Frogsterking]

I have to log out right now, I'll be back later, maybe a couple hours

[Frogsterking]

PSA

Thank goodness Shea took the bait:

I would be more open to listening to your idea about the Weak Argument Method even though it's clearly not supported by any research if you weren't so quick to put me down at every opportunity.

I think disagreeing with your methods does not equal putting you down. But I also don't think this is a productive use of either of our time, this argument. I do not buy your methods and I don't think there's anything you can say or do that will make me given my experience reading a bunch of your games.

The only thing that's annoying here is you trying to hold me hostage by saying you wont even consider my arguments unless I agree with your scum hunting methods. Which I'm just straight up not going to do because I've seen no evidence they catch scum anywhere.

Now the next time Shea and I are both online I can wreak more pointless havoc on the thread.

[Frogsterking]

I'm increasingly believing that Grib is an ideal target for the N1 message.

I think players like Aisa are better targets for an N2 or later message because they might be easier to persuade and because we might want to wait and see how long they can actually survive.

I would *really* like to get Solway mislimmed somehow instead of using the NK on him.

I would also *love* to mislim Shea at any point in this game.

I currently have a

very low

certainty TPR read on Solway.

I will check the thread now to look for any more TPR reads.

[Frogsterking]

TPR hunting is hard someone should make a guide.

[Frogsterking]

Eira can you get TPR reads?

[Frogsterking]

I was in the process of copy + pasting that same quote lol

[Frogsterking]

I hopped in the discord. I see you've decorated the place

[Frogsterking]

I'm still there lol

[Frogsterking]

Oh shit maybe they are Masons:

I guess it could be some of BBT/Bella/Frog, and who knows what alignment Fire is, but ugh.

Maybe I'll just chill on the Frog wagon for a while. VOTE: Frogsterking

Maybe you will have to deepscum after all Eiralox lmao

[Frogsterking]

I'm planning to vote Solway after he posts his reads list and I question him a little bit. Then I'm going to flip my read on Aisa and scumread them both. I'm going to argue to Fire to vote Solway D1 because Aisa is a Chatty Cathy and Solway is anti spewing. Solway gave me the idea ironically because he pointed out that I do that in my Town game. That way hopefully Solway will Townread me for it if he outs as TPR.

I'm also planning to role phish Shea as to whether or not he is an investigative. Apparently that is a thing Doctors do though I have NEVER

[Frogsterking]

I was thinking about things I read in the past which apply to using the mailman effectively and I found 2 sources:

http://www.slideshare.net/randfish/how- ... l-outreach

I read this a couple years ago and it was actually helpful and probably will apply directly here. The first couple dozen slides are like preamble for a conference (IMO) but the content improves dramatically after that.



This stuff is pretty fundamental and helpful to refresh IMO.

There's also distinction bias which kind of operates like a reversed halo effect; for example a high quality china set is auctioned at a lower price than a mediocre one because the high quality china set includes an extra bonus plate which is slightly chipped (yes that's really a thing, I'll source it in a few minutes.) Another notable one I didn't see above is the representative heuristic/bias. I'll post that when I get back home.

I had some training for suicide prevention a couple years ago and they taught me that anchoring bias is going to be the most important. That makes me think that we should narrow down the targets further to players who are receptive to Eiralox already.

[Frogsterking]

I'm leaning heavily toward Aisa?

[Frogsterking]

For the mail yeah.

[Frogsterking]

I'm going to keep FoSing this SF guy. I think you can go with a VT claim if it gets close. I don't think we can say for sure yet that it's going to go through.

[Frogsterking]

IMO either way is fine. Do you want to start working on the draft for the letter so there's time to get input from me and BBT?

[Frogsterking]

Thank you for posting, Eiralox!

It's almost 4 pm where i live lmao.

Did you want to add another section to your draft where you talk about your reads in depth? I would definitely buy that if I were Town because it looks like you're using the message like a Mason PT.

[Frogsterking]

@eir, come talk to me, not about me?


I think fire could be town and frog could be scum. I low key think aisa might be town but it's a meta read and not a good one. Grib can be town. In annoyed no one engaged me on hpe. I find the back and forth between grid/tsq/fire/frog/a little bbt soeta unreadable' because it looks like a pissing contest and I never get anything out of them.

This Town is really starting to piss me off with their good D1 reads.

[Frogsterking]

HPE TPR read

[Frogsterking]

HPR huge TPR read

[Frogsterking]

Solway is NDMath IMO.

[Frogsterking]

Random catch up stuff:

I've looked back at hpe and some of the wishy washyness I fel about its reads might be because of its posting style. Im not seeing what I was. I'm not loving the throwing around of votes but again it might be a style thing.

Re: bbt and lost - I was saying that in that game you collected scum reads for some fairly poor reasons, and you were town. A consensus scum read on you is a really easy place for scum to hide. I personally think you get more readable as either alingment the further we go in the game. You played with klick recently as town and he thought you were scum but by mid game I was like 'no, town'.

Re: enchant, nm and eir
I've never read nm as scum when he's town. I'm not getting that here.
Enchant is a slot I wouldn't want to elim today.
Eir I was scum reading because their posts didn't leave an impact on me, but now they've reached out I feel better.

Maybe Bella is another good N1 message candidate, Eiralox. They like when players reach out to them.

[Frogsterking]

Psychologically speaking I find messiness to be way more town indicative than scum indicative.

Is this d00d breadcrumbing psychologist?

[Frogsterking]

I think Shea might be a psychologist.

[Frogsterking]

Yeah for mail, who are we thinking for the kill?

I was thinking Shea because I think he is Psychologist.

[Frogsterking]

I think a Shea kill looks bad for me?

It will look better if he flips psychologist cause it will look like a TPR hunt.

Is there anything you said which might look like an inv breadcrumb? In case you get shot by vig and I claim later?

I'm going to take a hot second to go find Vig crumbs.

[Frogsterking]

i'm like 95% certain that Bella is a better mail pick at this point. i think i'm gonna fuck things up if i mail Aisa, at the start i was like yeah ok doable but rn honestly i feel a bit too nervous on what i have in thread to risk it..... and Aisa being on Sol: why would town eira fully trust that? anyway yup.... start new mail from scratch, i think just reveal myself, and try to sort scum based on sol flip.

I think this is best. Are you no longer using the other draft for Aisa?

[Frogsterking]

~11 hours remaining warning

Frogster heal BBT

BBT kill TSQ

Just so we don't forget.

[Frogsterking]

I really don't think TSQ is a good kill. Mainly because I think it's difficult for me to survive Day 2.

IDK you think it's easier with Shea pushing you? I think he crumbed psychologist too many times and it looks like the kill was a TPR hunt. Fire, Grib and I will be the loudest voices now and we will be more sympathetic than Shea was.

[Frogsterking]

I just don't think TSQ will be able to push the elim through that's all.

If we think he is a PR then I guess it makes sense.

Yeah I swear TSQ is a Psychologist. Eira pointed out his behavior is like "he knows his reads are going to matter", I caught him flinging psychologist crumbs all over the place and it fits with what we know about the setup (because scum doc = town vig = interaction with psychologist.) I think it's a good opportunity to take his role out of the game before he can claim/crumb any reports.

[Frogsterking]

Did that night timer expire? If we have time I wanted to say something.

[Frogsterking]

I wanteed to play differently d1frankly but had a busier schedule plus a long-delayed round robin writing competition now in full sway. my initial strat was to be a copious note-taker and overall stirrer-of-the-pot. That really didn't pan out, but my first piece is in and i've got i think a 5 or 7 day reprieve from writing at least so if i make it thru the night i wanna come in guns blazing : p

I would consider deleting this paragraph if you still have time to make changes. I think the message will read better without it and I think you might feel scum motivated to include this because you're self conscious about your D1 play. If there's no time to make changes or you don't want to delete it, I doubt it's a dealbreaker either way.

[Frogsterking]

here's to luck and the fates, hope i've made the right call on you and we can manage to make this role actually do something

I love this!

[Frogsterking]

do with this as u please, could be fun!

I would consider deleting this and ending the paragraph at the "XD" right before it.

[Frogsterking]

1. If u feel i should rather mail someone else(see below), like if you feel they're town enough to add value to the string, just bold their name in any message

2. If I at any time decide that i'm rather going to mail someone else(one of my plans rn is to properly test the waters and see where it takes me RE: Aisa, whether my gut is right or whether that unquelled voice of eternal suspicion will be proved, i hope not, correct) I'll just bold their name

3. If u have a solid hunch/suspicion on someone, but for some reason you're not keen on pushing there, just ask "Eiralox, what do you think about X's recent posts?" or whatever variation of that u wish to choose.

4. If you have received this message, like if one of us didn't get potted or I didn't get interfered with by any prowling courtesans, just bold my name in any message

I love this!

[Frogsterking]

The most important focus I feel is for me is to get an idea of who I can trust, which I'm very edgy on after what happened on Solway Firth, and basically always. I'm still 90% sure Asia is green, right now admittedly im sticking with my gut. I don't think Aisa is the worst person on the Sol train, and as of now they seem to be the mos likely person for me to mail Night 2........... but fuck i know i'm prone to forming shit reads and sticking with 'em so meh, here comes complexity, and hopefully PROFIT

I don't think there is any time to make additions, but if there is for whatever reason, I would expand on who else you TR and who you think is the susp one on the Solway train.

[Frogsterking]

I think it's great and we will be able to tell what she thinks because of the code!

[Frogsterking]

Still no powrr for 13 ,mih mobile shitty. Can explain itas not 100 percent trusting bella for scum fodder. Final list sorta hints at my tr. Not ideal kessage tbh but meh its done

That makes sense! That might have made her more suspicious if you were too trusting with all your reads.

[Frogsterking]

4. If you have received this message, like if one of us didn't get potted or I didn't get interfered with by any prowling courtesans, just bold my name in any message

I want to look again at

eir

, who was another slot I wavered on

Brilliant!

[Frogsterking]

Do you guys think Bella is the vig?

[Frogsterking]

I think Elements can be ruled out as the vig. They Townread HPE.

That would leave Enchant/Bella.

I don't really believe NM tbh though? I mean I guess it could be 3.

[Frogsterking]

I'm feeling elements is going to be our greatest in-thread threat.

Yeah, at the moment. That can change really quick though if someone needs to leave the game. We can't rely too much on controlling the narrative because we will lose control once a slot changes players.

[Frogsterking]

I'll take a quick look at Enchant's ISO but I think we might want to consider our options if Bella is the vig.

[Frogsterking]

Masons. How about that.

So town do have a protective

I'm wondering how that works. I'm pretty sure Town has 1 more "something." I guess that's what we should be looking for if we think Bella is vig.

[Frogsterking]

I'm pretty sure Town has 1 more "something."

I'll be intimidated if Town has both their own protective and investigative as well.

[Frogsterking]

MACHO can be there to fool scum and town into thinking there's a TPR, i'm not so sure tbh.

I really hope it's there to make my fake claim more believable and Town's last role is *just* a Traffic Analyst because of the interaction with the masons and mailman (I think.) Checking on that.

[Frogsterking]

Traffic Analyst:

Note that merely having access to a private topic is not necessarily enough to be able to communicate; there will have to be a second living player in the private topic in question to communicate with. To be precise, the role will give a "can communicate" result on a player who shares a private topic with another living player,

and also on roles that can use active roles to relay messages via the moderator (such as Mailman)

; and a "cannot communicate" result on anyone else.

[Frogsterking]

So maybe I am not the "Godfather" after all and Eira is? If it's a Traffic Analyst instead of a GS.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: BBT
This is scum and I don't think anyone can convince me otherwise

Guilty?

[Frogsterking]

Thanks for the reply Frog.

I'm not really loving Frog and I think this is kind of an underrated wagon atm, so VOTE: frogsterking.

Does anyone wanna talk to me about Enchant?

@bella

, what's your approach towards the game rn? I understand this is a pretty generic question, interpret it as you will

I can talk about Enchant

Also you still alive?

Will they bite?

[Frogsterking]

I guess the macho modifier is making me think there could be a jailkeeper?

[Frogsterking]

I guess the macho modifier is making me think there could be a jailkeeper?

Maybe a jailkeeper who doesn't crumb their roles as Town?

[Frogsterking]

What if there are jailkeeper, vigilante, and Traffic Analyst left? Who is who?

[Frogsterking]

Can we get Aisa up to e-2? That could be a helpful mislim.

[Frogsterking]

I don't see many people wanting to vote Aisa

That's why it would be helpful to get them mislimmed.

[Frogsterking]

Difficult to mislim someone people don't want to vote

If all three of us vote Aisa, all it takes is 1 person who Aisa rubbed the wrong way early on to put her at e-2, at which point Enchant and NM might hammer.

[Frogsterking]

Just wait for NM to change his vote again.

Eiralox, I would consider pursuing a similar strategy with Aisa N2 to what you did with Bella N1, unless you think Aisa is a Traffic Analyst.

[Frogsterking]

Elements isn't moving at all. I think he probably has a guilty and should be a priority kill.

I was wondering about that.

[Frogsterking]

I'd love to flip this onto Bella and NK Elements, then claim Doc on like D4.

[Frogsterking]

Grib's 1207 is bang on the money, town are super sharp in this game. Are we really playing that badly?

I think this Town is quite sharp.

[Frogsterking]

Doc Eiralox

Is Enchant the only vig candidate besides Bella?

[Frogsterking]

It's possble I guess. Why exactly do you suspect it?
__

I calculated 2 Endgames we can win:

One starts if you message Enchant, and the other starts if you message Fire. In both, your message needs to work tonight and my fakeclaim needs to be believed on either D3 or D4.

[Frogsterking]

And not killing enables you to claim you saved someone N2, if i'm correct?

Yeah I don't want to do that though unless I survive D3

[Frogsterking]

I was pretty high when I wrote that earlier.

I think one idea was to message Enchant and night kill fire.

[Frogsterking]

And go with your Mason + Mason theory maybe as an explanation for why you mailed Enchant

[Frogsterking]

You got your letter to Grib in xD?

[Frogsterking]

Make you sure you get that letter in xD

[Frogsterking]

Let the spirits move your words

[Frogsterking]

Remember even if you can't feel the spirits working through you, it doesn't mean they aren't there guiding you

[Frogsterking]

Town looking a little different now, finally

[Frogsterking]

Did you remember to signal Bella/did you do a similar thing in the Griv message?

[Frogsterking]

Did you remember to signal Bella/did you do a similar thing in the Griv message?

I finally just realized what happened. Damn.

[Frogsterking]

My feel just scanning the topic right now is that we can try to avoid claiming until D4 and get Elements wagoned.

[Frogsterking]

i can claim joat

Stick to the plan IMO. I believe Enchant is odd-night vig? They should be the kill IMO.

[Frogsterking]

It might be worth it to help me push down Elements today.

[Frogsterking]

We can make it look like one of us is trying to pocket the other.

[Frogsterking]

I'm a rat in a corner.

Lmao yes and I'm a limiting belief

[Frogsterking]

Fire, Grib and Elements are the only visible users right now and none of them are posting in the thread so it's very ominous. I didn't sleep at all last night so that maybe makes it seem more ominous.

[Frogsterking]

Sorry Frog, I know this is how you have to play having rolled scum but it just really gets on my nerves

I'm hoping that if I don't say anything else for a couple hours this will ping someone.

[Frogsterking]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Elements

Damn I tried to swing it without claiming but I ain

[Frogsterking]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Elements

Damn I tried to swing it without claiming but I ain

't superman.

I'm curious if you can get a read on Enchant's role from the interaction I had with them.

I'm pretty sure we left off the Vig hunt on Enchant/Bella?

[Frogsterking]

Eira just feels like he's perpetually waking up from a long nap, dropping a post, and and falling back asleep again.

Burned lmao

[Frogsterking]

The main thread cleared 10,000 views this morning. I think this village reads too much, that's why their reads are so good.

[Frogsterking]

There’s also a really cursed universe in which the setup is deliberately misleading and Frog somehow planned for a misleading Doctor claim from Day 1,

[Frogsterking]

There’s also a really cursed universe in which the setup is deliberately misleading and Frog somehow planned for a misleading Doctor claim from Day 1,

No, Frog just Made Assumptions.

[Frogsterking]

I sent some messages on discord but im guessing you don't have your tablet on.

The game isn't over yet and we can consider a desperado like this:

We have a big blowout toxic fight which makes us look unaligned and preventing town from getting shit together. Once the timer gets close we create or capitalize on an opportunity to flash wagon Grib. I send in the night kill on Bella and you get a message out to someone. On D4, I claim I protected Bella (implying scum left me alive because of our fight and to frame me.)

[Frogsterking]

Ironically I got the idea from here:

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Alison%29

[Frogsterking]

Aisa, i'm not claiming. i'm also not hot on voting n_m tbh.

Oh no... You will not claim. What we gonna possible do?


Oh right.
VOTE: Eiralox

Why vote Eira when you could vote Grib?

There are some minor signs that my strat might work, like this.

[Frogsterking]

I promise more thinking after work, I think I needed a full day to recover from Frog's claim yesterday

And this.

[Frogsterking]

Aisa, i'm not claiming. i'm also not hot on voting n_m tbh.

Oh no... You will not claim. What we gonna possible do?


Oh right.
VOTE: Eiralox

Why vote Eira when you could vote Grib?

Unvoting me while goading others to vote me is pretty cowardly.

He’s probably voting Eira because Eira won’t cooperate. And has also has basically no interest in finding mafia, at least from what I can see.

I'm not voting you cos there's no point if no one else is

Erias town.

Nevermind , Town might do it for us.

I still feel like I have to do something.

[Frogsterking]

i'm not saying it's not helpful, there are some very interesting theories for why frogsterking scum!

I generally like to hash things out in person with someone, tho, and if they've been gone for a long time i'm wary of letting others form my opinions for me. so i wasn't dissing what u saying but explaining how i work, i guess.

Like this post

Well played

[Frogsterking]

I think we definitely want the hammer to fall on Grib/Elements/Enchant, so we can predict that Bella will shoot NM. I want to turn in the night kill tonight so you can get another message out (to Aisa I think?)

I think there also is a slim possibility that Bella will shoot Aisa, in which case eliminating NM is okay.

[Frogsterking]

"Many towns will simply heed a call of “flash wagon!” and frantically switch targets like a raid boss having their aggro pulled by a moronic DPS. But some more skeptical playerlists might need a little convincing. Fortunately, you have a wide variety of fallacious arguments that you can pull out of your arsenal in order to convince them. Don’t bother using just one, either: use every one you think you can get away with, especially if other players have limited time (owing to the impending deadline) to refute them. It worked for Duane Gish, and it can work for you.

The first argument you will be using is DADV, which stands for “Dead Air, Dead Villager”. The real-life Italian Mafia abide by a strict code of silence known as omertà. Similarly, forum mafia teams are also bound to a strict code of silence that forbids them from talking whenever a villager is being wagoned. It therefore follows that any game thread which goes for more than five minutes without a post is guaranteed to be wagoning an innocent townie. No self-respecting mafioso would ever wolfread - or, god forbid, vote - a teammate, and so if someone in the game is a consensus suspect, that person is confirmed town, and you should treat them as such.

The second argument is known as “TWTBW”. All the good arguments in mafia have complex acronyms. Like many things, the longer they are, the more attractive they will be to the general population. In this case, TWTBW stands for “Too Wolfy To Be Wolf”. The premise behind this argument is simple. Wolves are not wolfy. In fact, wolves are never wolfy. As a result, anyone who is wolfy cannot possibly be a wolf. The only people who are wolfy are townies, so if you find someone acting in the most scummy, unjustifiable, anti-town way possible, you can rest assured that they have a green role card. If anyone challenges this logic, mock them for making “level 1” reads. Level 1 reads are never correct because anything obvious cannot be true. This segues neatly into…

“The game can’t be this easy”. There isn’t an acronym for this one, but I’m sure there will be by this time next year. Mafia games are never easy. No matter how stacked the playerlist, and how well you’ve been doing, the game is always the most fiendishly difficult, labyrinthine, and impossible solve imaginable. It doesn’t matter if town is well on its way to a sweep. There is always a deepwolf, this is mandated by the laws of man and God, and it is your responsibility to find them. Reject all attempts at peddling solves which are logical consequences of the game’s events. Flash wagoning is your one chance to earn glory and a champs advance by swapping wagons onto a deepwolf. Since they’re deep, you will usually want to target only consensus, obvious town with your flash wagon. Those are the most likely to flip mafia.

Which brings us to our fourth and last argument, “let it rand”. This one is the most situational, as it can only be used when there are two competing wagons - although you can always create a competing wagon using the first three if it doesn’t already exist. Out of everyone in the game, who can you be completely certain isn’t mafia? That’s right, Modbot. Not only is Modbot confirmed to not be mafia, it also knows the identities of all the mafia members, as it was the one who sent them their role PMs. Therefore it is obviously correct to let Modbot make all your decisions for you. Rather than using their brains to figure out which of two possible candidates is scummier, frivolously encourage the town to force a tie and allow Modbot to sort it out. Random chance is always superior to reasoned analysis in games of deduction.

If all else fails, there’s always “vibes”."

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Alison%29

[Frogsterking]

ok scanned everything except wall. im gonna hang back for a bit more. honestly... we can leave bella alive, heal, and i claim i mailed in killed OR I calim something else. i'll let things mature. don 't think i can fight rn

That's fine, I was being panicky and the wall was a quote from the link. I'm going to try and play for some of that stuff in the wall.

[Frogsterking]

honestly... we can leave bella alive, heal, and i claim i mailed in killed OR I calim something else. i'll let things mature. don 't think i can fight rn

I was just thinking about that and I think it's too cheeky to leave Bella alive because they can reflect and realize that they're pocketed. It also gives a chance to sell a roleblock + kill theory because it makes sense scum would want to get rid of the vig before the doc in case the roleblocker gets voted out before they can block the second shot.

[Frogsterking]

Hold your horses, I found some leads in Grib's ISO. I got a chai latte earlier which didn't have enough kick for me, so I'm actually grabbing some more laundry money and headed back to Starbucks again so I can drink something with more horsepower while I compile my thoughts.

Here's a sneak peek of what's to come:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference

My ideas are based partially on the concept of transference and how it applies to mafia. There's a chance this may have caused me to misattribute some of Grib's motivations onto those he was interacting with.

I don't think Frog is scum

I'm not enjoying playing with them

I don't know what to say. I feel like apologizing because I get toxic a lot headed toward the late game (which I then don't actually reach because I get mislimmed), but in this case you were the one who told me to kill myself and my family, so it feels like I would be a self-loathing people pleaser if I apologized? I'm about to get solvey so maybe it will be easier to work together since you seem to like that?

If you're Town then it's best we don't fight for the next 24 hours. I'm open to constructive criticism on my ideas (as long as it's constructive.) If you're scum though then feel free to come at me, it will help me read you

PEdit:

I don't think so because that's what the role "checkers" are for. That is like...their only ability, to know if their ability was roleblocked. Their actual ability itself has no effect on their target.

Am I pushing the believability too hard? I'm about to push much harder into anti town tinfoil (and I'm not intending to pick at Elements any more.)

[Frogsterking]

Thank you for being honest about the scumminess, I'm pretty sure Fire would be heckling me hard right now if they alive and I feel like you would as well if you were Town. I'm going to power through with the terrible solving to help shut down morale and because of what you said about meeting the last minute doc reads image.

It would probably help to meet up discord during N3 (provided one of us doesn't get flash wagoned) to figure out what's up. I don't expect Town has anything at this point because scum are screwed over with no multitasking and Town are screwed over with with their shitty TPRs so there seems to be an equilibrium.

BUT I don't want to rule out there isn't still some surprise watcher/tracker or whatever because I have played in a setup like that as scum on this website before and it almost ended the game instantly.

[Frogsterking]

Who is the dumbest pick as an FoS to be partnered with Grib?

[Frogsterking]

Who is the dumbest pick as an FoS to be partnered with Grib?

Aisa?

[Frogsterking]

"Beginners to gamethrowing often think that they must create compelling, nuanced cases in order to bring suspicion down on someone who has been beyond suspicion for most of the game. Not so. The undisputed king of tinfoil, Alex Jones, has never made a coherent argument in his life. Yet he has swindled millions more people into believing obvious nonsense than you ever will. So follow his example. No chain of logic is too dubious, no associative too indecipherable, for you to somehow make it about how the claimed PR who has buried 2 wolves is fooling everyone.

Start by looking at associatives with flipped wolves. Associatives are like a coin; every one has two sides, and as the person constructing the case, you have the right to choose which side applies to your position. Did the mafia townread your tinfoil victim? That’s a classic case of wolves trying to clear each other. But if they scumread your victim, it’s obviously bussing or TMI. (If you’re instead trying to tinfoil clear an obvious mafia, reverse these arguments. A townread is TMI, while a scumread is them trying to get a villager killed.)"

[Frogsterking]

"Beginners to gamethrowing often think that they must create compelling, nuanced cases in order to bring suspicion down on someone who has been beyond suspicion for most of the game. Not so. The undisputed king of tinfoil, Alex Jones, has never made a coherent argument in his life. Yet he has swindled millions more people into believing obvious nonsense than you ever will. So follow his example. No chain of logic is too dubious, no associative too indecipherable, for you to somehow make it about how the claimed PR who has buried 2 wolves is fooling everyone.

Start by looking at associatives with flipped wolves. Associatives are like a coin; every one has two sides, and as the person constructing the case, you have the right to choose which side applies to your position. Did the mafia townread your tinfoil victim? That’s a classic case of wolves trying to clear each other. But if they scumread your victim, it’s obviously bussing or TMI. (If you’re instead trying to tinfoil clear an obvious mafia, reverse these arguments. A townread is TMI, while a scumread is them trying to get a villager killed.)"

This with the theme of transference. Oh boy.

"Transference is when someone redirects their feelings about one person onto someone else. During a therapy session, it usually refers to a person transferring their feelings about someone else onto their therapist.

Countertransference is when a therapist transfers feelings onto the patient. Both transference and countertransference usually happen unconsciously."

[Frogsterking]

"Next, examine the nightkills and their legacies. I know, I know - you were taught in Gamethrowing 101 to make sure that the town doesn’t look at dead town legacies at all. But now you can use them for your own ends. As with associatives, a dead town that scumread your victim was obviously killed for their reads, while one that townread them was killed for WIFOM."

[Frogsterking]

"Transference is when someone redirects their feelings about one person onto someone else. During a therapy session, it usually refers to a person transferring their feelings about someone else onto their therapist.

Countertransference is when a therapist transfers feelings onto the patient. Both transference and countertransference usually happen unconsciously."
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/wha ... ansference

~~~~~~~~

This vibe is super fucking weird.

I'm going to be surprised if you're both town here. Honestly, it reads like hard distancing, but I can't imagine what the team would have to be for this to be a viable strategy.

Hey Grib, how are you?

...

I have no interest in killing off a lurker Day 1, as much as I'd like to be rid of them.

BBT is probably going to be the consensus, and there's a reasonable chance he's scum. I'm nowhere near as confident as you seem to be.

I have no interest in killing off a lurker Day 1, as much as I'd like to be rid of them.

BBT is probably going to be the consensus, and

there's a reasonable chance he's scum

. I'm nowhere near as confident as you seem to be.

Fuck. That was a kick to the ball sack.

...

This post is @BBT but I don't feel like quoting his large post.

I had a silly thought over Night 1 that if mafia shot HPE, TSQ would tunnel me for this phase and either succeed in getting me eliminated or ruin any towncred I had. Given that no one besides him has really shown any interest in scumreading me, I figured it was the mafia's best bet to get me back in the elim pool. I would say the major difference between my scumread and yours is that you already looked bad and were a viable wagon because of your argument with him, while I looked questionable at best near the end of Day 1.

Regarding the buddying and my request of your past town games, I thought that maybe you just wanted to have a villager pocketed and picked Bella by having an empty (meta) townread on her. When I asked you about your past meta reads, I didn't mean on Bella specifically, I was referring to any instance where you were a villager and relied on meta to read someone else. Because if this isn't something you normally do as a villager, then it just looks like a fake townread.

I see.

If it helps, I town read Bella after she was tracked to a kill. And then defended her. I have a tendency to just town read her for some reason.

...

Also, ideally, I wouldn't have to summon you to do the one thing town is supposed to be doing. Observing that you aren't really engaged is hardly talking about you.

If you want to sort me talk to me, not about me.

Scum struggling to engage with the game without someone providing an angle for them...

Just incase anyone was wondering.

...

~~~~~~~~

I don't like gribs votes moving with momentum rather than actual changes. He's now reevaluated BBT twice and both times nothing had changed except the momentum of the wagon.

How do you feel about grib

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Grib



"Transference is when someone redirects their feelings about one person onto someone else. During a therapy session, it usually refers to a person transferring their feelings about someone else onto their therapist.

Countertransference is when a therapist transfers feelings onto the patient. Both transference and countertransference usually happen unconsciously."
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/wha ... ansference

~~~~~~~~

This vibe is super fucking weird.

I'm going to be surprised if you're both town here. Honestly, it reads like hard distancing, but I can't imagine what the team would have to be for this to be a viable strategy.

Hey Grib, how are you?

...

I have no interest in killing off a lurker Day 1, as much as I'd like to be rid of them.

BBT is probably going to be the consensus, and there's a reasonable chance he's scum. I'm nowhere near as confident as you seem to be.

I have no interest in killing off a lurker Day 1, as much as I'd like to be rid of them.

BBT is probably going to be the consensus, and

there's a reasonable chance he's scum

. I'm nowhere near as confident as you seem to be.

Fuck. That was a kick to the ball sack.

...

This post is @BBT but I don't feel like quoting his large post.

I had a silly thought over Night 1 that if mafia shot HPE, TSQ would tunnel me for this phase and either succeed in getting me eliminated or ruin any towncred I had. Given that no one besides him has really shown any interest in scumreading me, I figured it was the mafia's best bet to get me back in the elim pool. I would say the major difference between my scumread and yours is that you already looked bad and were a viable wagon because of your argument with him, while I looked questionable at best near the end of Day 1.

Regarding the buddying and my request of your past town games, I thought that maybe you just wanted to have a villager pocketed and picked Bella by having an empty (meta) townread on her. When I asked you about your past meta reads, I didn't mean on Bella specifically, I was referring to any instance where you were a villager and relied on meta to read someone else. Because if this isn't something you normally do as a villager, then it just looks like a fake townread.

I see.

If it helps, I town read Bella after she was tracked to a kill. And then defended her. I have a tendency to just town read her for some reason.

...

Also, ideally, I wouldn't have to summon you to do the one thing town is supposed to be doing. Observing that you aren't really engaged is hardly talking about you.

If you want to sort me talk to me, not about me.

Scum struggling to engage with the game without someone providing an angle for them...

Just incase anyone was wondering.

...

~~~~~~~~

I meant, what peopel have to say about it when I lay out the reasons. But you're right, I don't think I'm going to get much out of waiting.

The problems I have with that vote are

1) it was waaay too early to accuse Firebringer of not wanting to have reads.
2) it was also too early to accuse scum of not wanting to fill out your survey - barely half the game had posted at that time.
3) you didn't explain why scum would or would not interact with your quiz.
4) I purposefully ignored your quiz to see what you would do about it, and you didn't react at all, which makes me think that 2 was complete bull.
5) you townreading me right after that felt appease-y.

this is a scum post. poking at things that are surface level and look weird but at their core don't have any particular reason why scum would do them rather than town.

I think the whole song and dance that grib did wrt me and frogster falls into the same category of just performative nonsense.

I don't think you think any of this actually helps you find scum.

VOTE: grib

Realistic attempts to sorts don't look like this, generally, this is what scum posts when they want to look involved in the thread but don't have anything real to push on.

Eh, yeah, that's about what I expected from Shea. There's always at least one player every single game who dislikes either me or my playstyle and then finds a way to scumread me for it.

Probably just going to ignore and play around that slot, to be honest, because if he's a villager there's like 0% chance he ever extends an olive branch.

...

I don't like gribs votes moving with momentum rather than actual changes. He's now reevaluated BBT twice and both times nothing had changed except the momentum of the wagon.

I don't like gribs votes moving with momentum rather than actual changes. He's now reevaluated BBT twice and both times nothing had changed except the momentum of the wagon.

Well, people are complaining about consolidating and not having a last minute rando wagon. Let’s be real, the only real momentum the BBT wagon had was due to your case, and I decided that wasn’t enough for me. I paid more attention to the people saying that BBT often gets flack for playstyle.

Anyway, Solway has momentum, that slot isn’t villagery enough imo, there were some takes I agreed with but I also massively feel like he’s making easy posts. Which is ??? when he did say that this game his thoughts are much more fleshed out than he usually plays.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't think I reevaluated BBT twice? I voted him fairly early, then Shea did his reaction test, I stayed to see what would happen, I moved to HPE at some point, and then switched back to BBT because Shea shaded me for vanity voting.

Shea shades a lot tbh.

...

Part of my issue with grib is that basically all his analysis seems completely on the surface, and he keeps demanding people justify themselves to him without really giving much justification of his own outside of very baseline stuff.

Like ironically if I'm looking for someone in this thread who is trying to make sure he has Reasons TM for everything he's doing and every progression it's grib, the problem is I haven't really found any of those justifications to be compelling.

I don't think not being compelled by my reasons is at all the same thing as my stances not being as justified as you (or anyone) would like them to be. You can think someone explained themselves well or has good reasons for thinking a certain way, and still disagree with the premise of what they're saying. I just think you're conflating the two.

I'm happy to elaborate on anything I've said that's lacking.

...

The reason I scum read you is I do not think you're trying to figure out people's alignment, you know, the baseline of what a townie is trying to do, and that's a pretty disingenuous point at the end there. As you said yourself you didn't even know who I was when you initiated that exchange.

Like I didn't even know who Shea was until he popped in at that time. Didn't catch the user title in their first post.

In any case, I don't think I'm going to be able to convince you I'm a villager and vice versa. People have complained about how much we post, so I'm going to drop it here. And I do hear you on the HPE thing, so I can drop that too for the time being.

Right, OK. But 'How' did I look bad and why is it bad = scum and not bad = town? Like, what specifically makes me scum?

Tone, reaction, vibes, etcetera. This one simply thinks you're acting like scum in it's eyes based on the what it's seen from your bouts with TSQ. If you wanna argue against that, go ahead,

but it probably ain't really gonna change this one's opinion on you and the situation

.

Independent of the read on BBT, the mindset of this post is pretty bad. I think the underlined is +scum motivated rather than +town.

Hmmmmm.

Sorry, "I hear you and I'll drop it" doesn't work on things that happened seventy pages ago? What are you trying to say with that post?

seventy posts, not pages

...

[Frogsterking]

Phew this is a lot of work. This is the prompt for the grib -> elements section.

"If you’re doing everything right, you should be able to get a few paranoid townies on your side, while your victim starts to become concerned at the tides turning against them. Sensing a shift in the gamestate, they will no doubt try to defend themselves by refuting your arguments and undermining your case. That’s when you hit them with your trump card: they are a good wolf.

That’s right. The person you are scumreading is skilled at playing the mafia alignment. That means that they are always mafia, and if you ever townread them, no matter how solid your reasons, you are being tricked by their devious mafia ways. The better they are at wolfing, the more you should scumread them for it. Needless to say, being the master manipulators that they are, nothing is out of their scum range. No action, no matter how townie, is beyond their grasp. Did they singlehandedly kill half the mafia team? That is exactly what a skilled wolf would do. Having three red flips by day four is a tell-tale sign of strong wolf play. Did a flipped cop check them green? Perhaps they are the Godfather. It’s not like anyone’s going to bother checking the first page where the host confirms that investigations will not be falsified. And if they did, well, who’s to say this game isn’t bastard? The host could have lied."

After this i have to add in the bbt -> shea section

[Frogsterking]

"Therein lies the genius of flash wagons. Like the Lord, you will giveth, and you will taketh away. Rather than denying the town the 48 hours they are entitled to solve in, you will benevolently permit them all the time they are allotted. Once they have discussed and found an execution candidate they agree on, you will render every scrap of solving null and void by abruptly switching the target to someone else at the very last minute. Ideally, this switch will be done with as little discussion as possible so that people are forced to make naked votes in a mad panic rather than rationally weigh the benefits and drawbacks of switching wagons. This has the additional benefit of denying the new execution target time to claim if they are a power role. However, just in case they’re quick on the draw, try to switch the execution to someone who isn’t around at EOD at all to defend themselves. Players in odd time zones, such as Australians or Eastern Europeans, are particularly vulnerable to this strategy. If they didn’t want to be rolled at EOD, they shouldn’t have signed up to a North American game.

Many towns will simply heed a call of “flash wagon!” and frantically switch targets like a raid boss having their aggro pulled by a moronic DPS. But some more skeptical playerlists might need a little convincing. Fortunately, you have a wide variety of fallacious arguments that you can pull out of your arsenal in order to convince them. Don’t bother using just one, either: use every one you think you can get away with, especially if other players have limited time (owing to the impending deadline) to refute them. It worked for Duane Gish, and it can work for you."

[Frogsterking]

ok your case has definite flesh. rn it's a gamble cos folk have little time, but there's def a lot of grib shade in there to work with.

I might not vote grib after all. we'll see. might say i believe N_M is mason and bad vote tho, cos i can spin that

I wouldn't vote Grib if I were you lol

I was scared people would call me out for horseshit. I feel like if anything, you could post a biggish follow up of your own where you point out what you like and don't like. As long as people are talking about it then they're talking about horseshit.

My gf thinks I'm crazy because I've been cackling for like 24 hours straight

I loafed out a little bit because I didn't even add the word prompts I was planning. I can maybe use the prompts as a reference for my follow up.

[Frogsterking]

BUS ME NOW

[Frogsterking]

BUS BUS BUS

[Frogsterking]

Write like a deeper analytical post which takes time to read

[Frogsterking]

It's a chess strategy. When the opponent is running out time you play moves like that which they don't have time to think about. I can keep stressing them out with this shit.

BTW i am actually both dru k and high Ia wasn't lying.

[Frogsterking]

I am not quite as bad at being cross faded as I'm making myself out to be in-thread but it's also the truth :p

[Frogsterking]

nah it's pretty clear yer drunkigh lol >.< im not scottish but im a bit french i guess

have fun

Are you going to write your solvey posts now? It's a good strat though actually. We might actually get a NL here.

[Frogsterking]

nah my thread knowledge is too shit atm. i've said ive been disconnected and i mean it, me hunting scum rn is me being lacklustre at it.

w survive, i claim mailed bella/fire/bella bella/n_m/bella omething. dont know if can post mail pvts in thred. cos if town asks.... will need n2/n3 backup?

I get it, it will be less work for you overall to post tye analytical shit now though because you and I can both reference it later, and if what you post is bad it will just make you more believable and more likely to end game as scum.

[Frogsterking]

i'm actually gonna get higher and wathc some season 1 eric andre.back vheneveraz

High post it while you watch that shit then

[Frogsterking]

Eira we should probably request fast night in order to frame the active posters. I'm down to send in the kill (I'm still thinking Bella) if you're down to write the letter.

[Frogsterking]

we can do fast night i guess but i doubt its gonna happen, and i'm sorta over mafia so meh. if u feel there's a distinct advantage?


and who do i mail?

IDK I think it's okay to be creative at this point and I think the letter might offer more benefit than the heal tonight because you did a good job with the one to Bella

[Frogsterking]

I guess actually...

If we don't kill Bella, that might imply the remaining scum are goons.

[Frogsterking]

I think Bella is pocketed by you and they are unlikely to wifom their shot

[Frogsterking]

Killing a VT might imply that scum are in the remaining VTs and trying to frame a clueless PR claim. Especially an Aisa kill.

I don't believe Bella will wifom her shot because I think she is a team player who will do what claimed

[Frogsterking]

I think it's a good choice to sleep on cuz it might decide the game. I'll do that too.

Pedit:

Discord tomorrow sounds good

[Frogsterking]

I think it's a good choice to sleep on cuz it might decide the game. I'll do that too.

Pedit:

Discord tomorrow sounds good

I also believe it is okay to be creative here

[Frogsterking]

I think it's a good choice to sleep on cuz it might decide the game. I'll do that too.

Pedit:

Discord tomorrow sounds good

I also believe it is okay to be creative here

Counterpoint: Aisa also could be "waiting out the hammer" fmpov and Enchant's theory about a scum doctor was based on Elements implying you are real and I am not, so it could reverse enchants opinion on you and allow you to endgame.

Counterpoint to that: enchant is also more likely to notice to notice that scum dont have multitasking and didn't send a letter out if you're F3 with them

[Frogsterking]

we can kill aisa

I'm thinking Bella too maybe

[Frogsterking]

Did Aisa keep her TR on you?

[Frogsterking]

Elements was pretty down on Aisa's EoD.

Elements could make sense to mail FYPOV?

[Frogsterking]

Maybe Aisa becomes viable mislim again?

[Frogsterking]

I think it's also worth considering a joat claim if we kill Bella. I know you mentioned joat a few times and I was like "no let's stick to the plan" and at the same time I also don't want to stand in the way of creativity. I'm still leaning towards mailman but like JOAT( mailman, town friendly neighbor, mason-Finder, detective/tracker) could be juicy to end the game with a fake guilty?

N1 TFN Bella
N2 mason-Finder NM
N3 mail someone to explain "what happened"
N4 fake detective/tracker guilty for win?

If we can find things you did D1 which look like a crumb for any of that, we know Aisa values pre-emptive crumbs.

so yeah i skimmed this morning and saw that and went wtf, then skimmed above strat thingies.

When you read my case?

or that';s a cigar. some reason thought it was pipe.... are pipes sexier than cigars?

Cigars definitely work for some but are perceived as off putting by others. I think the downside to the pipe might be getting potential manifestation of like a Grandpa persona and the downside of cigars would be the potential for triggering disgust. Overall personally I'd choose pipes.

2. Bella N1 Not_Mafia n2 ? N3

I love this idea by the way. Maybe (if you go with the mail claim) we can find something that looks like a signal back to you from NM and match it to something Bella did early on (other than the name bold) to help give you a motive for the strong NM read?

im not scottish but im a bit french i guess

Cool! I'm Anglo Saxon with a dash of Irish.

[Frogsterking]

One thing I'm excited about is that I've never seen a scum mailman be used successfully before so I feel really motivated to try and close a scum win and find some N3 use for the role.

[Frogsterking]

viewtopic.php?p=13527270#p13527270 should link to #879 a post of yours. Looks pretty townie IMO.

[Frogsterking]

Maybe #436 (yours) could he a mason-finder crumb?

[Frogsterking]

#253 (you)

"And when did frogster TR me for sorting..... i didn't really sort jack skwat thus far, only got my Asia feel, said i feel greenish on grib, and then later the iffy vibes i got from bella and elements, which isn't much tbh, i think bella is a ghost so meh and elements.... tbh hard to read for me atm."

i think bella is a ghost = mason? Elements and Bella mason reads?

[Frogsterking]

With jack = joat crumb?

[Frogsterking]

#879

"Even tho i do feel good on fire, the fact that they and enchant are still in the same tunnel they've been basically all game , and all the reASONS i've seem from them are.... watery at best, just doesn't vibe well with me."

Mason-finder crumb

[Frogsterking]

#474 and #484 maybe mason read crumbs as well?

__

There's a plot hole which would need to be explained away in this narrative:

The N1 TFN shot on Bella instead of the mason-Finder shot first.

Two excuses:

You wanted to use the TFN shot as a gambit to get an extra report by firing it N1 and then the mailman shot N2 to tell someone what you did N1. If you survive N2 you know you can trust the N1 target. Also, you intended to use the mason-Finder as a Checker shot to see if you were being roleblocked before you fired the tracker shot?

Then the change of plan was because you were able to make use of the mason-Finder N2 and felt comfortable with Bella being Town.

[Frogsterking]

I feel like I floated some good ideas but I don't want to be a power role-player so I'll wait for you before posting more.

__

Except...

Another option is to use the mailman shot to impersonate/frame someone and claim TFN?

If we go that route then the TFN claim would either need to be "complex TFN" or we might need to consider an extremely complex plan:

NK with a wifom save on someone and hope that Bella continues to not out your role until we can kill her N4. I claim to have received something which I don't reveal and indicates that i now believe you are town and should not out your role. We make sure that Enchant and 1 other player are clearly trapped within the PoE D4. On D5, I out that you're a complex TFN and I accuse Enchant of trying to frame me as a scum doctor.

__

So we have 4 "candidate moves" as we would call them in chess:

Pure mailman
JOAT plan
Complex TFN
TFN WITH an extremely complex plan

__

Now I will wait before posting more.

[Frogsterking]

Eira don't read until posting which ideas

you

like the best and/or think will work.

Spoiler:

1 Pure mailman
2 JOAT plan
3 Complex TFN
4 TFN WITH an extremely complex plan

I prefer candidate moves

2, 1, 3 and 4 in that order.

[Frogsterking]

Can be read whenever. Also obviously if you have your own candidate moves I'm down to add those to the list.

Spoiler:

D4 with the non-wifomy kill Bella.

VC 3.FINAL

With 8 players

6

,

it takes 5

4

to make a decision. Day 3 ends in (expired on 2022-11-05 15:00:00).

VC
Not_Mafia [5]: Aisa, Grib, Elements, Enchant,

Bellaphant

Grib [1]: Frogsterking

Not voting [2]:

Not_Mafia

, Eiralox

[Frogsterking]

viewtopic.php?p=13545435#p13545435

Before I forget I want to note that #1926 (#1927) can be reinforced against Enchant later.

I also want to note that Enchant's ego is that they are an above-average player (which I happen to agree with.)

[Frogsterking]

complex tfn... yeah maybe. might suggest scum have pr's instead of goons for balance.

That's an excellent point I didn't consider.

[Frogsterking]

hmmmm what? ..... ... oh yeah, last thing, i havent aked CSf but idk if town can demand i paste my mail for each night in-thread. if that's possible then TFN is safer maybe.
--------------------------

ok for now i go, so lemme ask: if i go something like TFN, and we frame some1 via mail, who do we frame to whom, and how?

Can you please clarify what you're asking about in the first section in the quote above?

I'll think about your question in the second section now.

[Frogsterking]

anyway imma bounce. hopefully tommorow im feeling up to this more. bella killing me is still real on my mind, but i get what u saying, they might trust me. i wouldn't, mailman would maybe be low utility in my mind and i'd maybe sort that possible bias.... but a complex vig being unsure can safely target a VT claim, if they lied theyre ded, so all good and maybe bella shooting grib is 100%?

I don't want to say 100% so I'll say 95%.

[Frogsterking]

This is that link to the tier list I was talking about, I've been finding it helpful to browse roles:

viewtopic.php?p=13500924#p13500924

[Frogsterking]

Maybe an N2 vanilla cop shot on NM would make sense with your behavior D2?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Vanilla_Cop

[Frogsterking]

Maybe an N2 vanilla cop shot on NM would make sense with your behavior D2?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Vanilla_Cop

N2 vanilla cop or N2 roleblocker-Finder shot are my best guesses right now.

[Frogsterking]

Maybe an N2 vanilla cop shot on NM would make sense with your behavior D2?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Vanilla_Cop

N2 vanilla cop or N2 roleblocker-Finder shot are my best guesses right now.

Like something which would give you some reason not to want to vote there but not enough to hard commit to defending them.

I think roleblocker-Finder might be best? Because it could imply that there is a roleblocker somewhere? But that maybe doesn't mesh with the NLing.

[Frogsterking]

You cannot copy paste the contents of your mail into the game thread
And neither can the receiver of your mail

But you can paraphrase

Thank you!

so i wanna full reread try thread and play wiki, need descriptor i think, 'lazy' might seem balanced?

Would lazy make sense with your play?

[Frogsterking]

Maybe an N2 vanilla cop shot on NM would make sense with your behavior D2?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Vanilla_Cop

N2 vanilla cop or N2 roleblocker-Finder shot are my best guesses right now.

Like something which would give you some reason not to want to vote there but not enough to hard commit to defending them.

I think roleblocker-Finder might be best? Because it could imply that there is a roleblocker somewhere? But that maybe doesn't mesh with the NLing.

FYI alien-Finder or watcher-Finder would be so cool

[Frogsterking]

Maybe an N2 vanilla cop shot on NM would make sense with your behavior D2?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Vanilla_Cop

N2 vanilla cop or N2 roleblocker-Finder shot are my best guesses right now.

Like something which would give you some reason not to want to vote there but not enough to hard commit to defending them.

I think roleblocker-Finder might be best? Because it could imply that there is a roleblocker somewhere? But that maybe doesn't mesh with the NLing.

FYI alien-Finder or watcher-Finder would be so cool

alien-Finder shot is the most stylish IMO

[Frogsterking]

It accomplishes not wanting to out it to save NM but also not wanting to vote him!

[Frogsterking]

I haven't had any good frame ideas unfortunately

[Frogsterking]

#1945 Aisa good post to reference

"Bella, I don't think the reviewer is information we're given.
Accepting your premises, I feel like the only way this game is even remotely balanced with three masons is if some of the Town PRs interfere with each other. Idk"

[Frogsterking]

A just straight up alien shot is also good I think maybe?

[Frogsterking]

Ehh maybe not

[Frogsterking]

Maybe a PT cop shot on FireB for N2?

[Frogsterking]

so i wanna full reread try thread and play wiki, need descriptor i think, 'lazy' might seem balanced?

I think it does make it a lot more balanced and might make more sense with my suggestion below. My top question is if you were really a lazy JOAT do you think you would send the message out now to Aisa instead of using the tracker shot?

N1: Friendly Neigbour Bella N2: Traffic Analyst N_M N3: Mail ? N4: Tracker

Does N2: PT Cop FireB work?

[Frogsterking]

#1941 Aisa

"This is CSF's previous mini normal, somebody go figure out something clever with mod meta
viewtopic.php?p=13331277#p13331277 "

[Frogsterking]

Roles will be assigned in the following order according to the dice role:

Highest number

Mafia Rolecop
Goon
Goon
Town odd-night GS
Town Lazy Tracker
Town Simple JK
Town Backup Vig
VTs x 6

Lowest number

Previous CSF setup

[Frogsterking]

If i claim LFN, u suggested we use mail to frame someone?

Yeah. I don't have any great ideas for that though

[Frogsterking]

I guess Town will NL to avoid mislim-and-lose since they're at 6 players left? Or at least that could be what you try to convince your mail target to help you do before you fire off the track?

[Frogsterking]

I guess Town will NL to avoid mislim-and-lose since they're at 6 players left? Or at least that could be what you try to convince your mail target to help you do before you fire off the track?

If you agree this quote above is the best plan for Town (to NL so the mafia are forced to give Town info by killing someone and making it 3-2, because if we mislim on d4 then it would go to 3-2 during the day and then at night it would be 2-2) then I think you can try to repocket Aisa with a message pleading for her help, with our fakeclaim idea for the lazy joat --another reason you can give her for not wanting to ml today: you might be able to track someone to thenight kill--with the PT cop N2 variant and including the joat/mason read crumbs(like "jack").

That sounds like the plan that we both like and think might work the most.

Can you whip up a draft for it first so i can have time to help, and then if you feel like it you can add a section about your fake reads onto it later?

[Frogsterking]

Asking Bella to boldyour name was genius by the waybecause now whenAisa looksback she's going to see that as a crumb for TFN which is going to make you conftown from her point of view.

[Frogsterking]

Asking Bella to boldyour name was genius by the waybecause now whenAisa looksback she's going to see that as a crumb for TFN which is going to make you conftown from her point of view.

Which, as you were pointing out earlier, will drive wedge between Aisa/Elements/Grib if you plead for Aisa to help her stay hidden.

[Frogsterking]

Asking Bella to boldyour name was genius by the waybecause now whenAisa looksback she's going to see that as a crumb for TFN which is going to make you conftown from her point of view.

Which, as you were pointing out earlier, will drive wedge between Aisa/Elements/Grib if you plead for Aisa to help her stay hidden.

Help

*you

stay hidden. That will make Grib and Elements suspicious of her, especially since she was off NM yesterday.

You and can both be safe in our claims from at least one but not all influential Town voices.

[Frogsterking]

off NM yesterday.

*On

NM yesterday

[Frogsterking]

"@fire, I'm starting to think you just don't like way I post.

I really thought I had day one more sorted, there was deffo scum inElements/ hpe/tsq/frog/n_m/maybe fire.

I want to look again at

eir

, who was another slot I wavered on."

#1007, Bella. You can say you know you weren't roleblocked N1 because Bella crumbed you here.

That along with the stuff I compiled in the posts above has a great shot at convincing Aisa that you're conftown.

Maybe you can just ask Aisa to help you by giving you a signal your night action went through and helping convince Town to NL and let you through the day without claiming.

And feel free to insert any drama or ate

[Frogsterking]

"@fire, I'm starting to think you just don't like way I post.

I really thought I had day one more sorted, there was deffo scum inElements/ hpe/tsq/frog/n_m/maybe fire.

I want to look again at

eir

, who was another slot I wavered on."

#1007, Bella. You can say you know you weren't roleblocked N1 because Bella crumbed you here.

That along with the stuff I compiled in the posts above has a great shot at convincing Aisa that you're conftown.

Maybe you can just ask Aisa to help you by giving you a signal your night action went through and helping convince Town to NL and let you through the day without claiming.

And feel free to insert any drama or ate

#1017

Bella

[Frogsterking]

you can add a section about your fake reads onto it later?

To pretend like you were solving, bonus goal but not required.

[Frogsterking]

The plan is a double xanatos gambit. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... atosGambit

Xanatos gambit 1) If the towncore bands together and kills one of us, then the other will become conftown. If instead they don't band together then we win.

Xanatos gambit 2) If the vote tomorrow is for a NL then you will be able to execute your lazy joat claim to get town to ML someone else at lylo (as long as Aisa publicly confirms you are conftown D5 and not D4.) You could nightkill Aisa the night before lylo I think in that scenario. If instead town decides to ML tomorrow and keep me alive as a conftown to lead, then I can wreak havoc.

[Frogsterking]

Frog is killing Bella

[Frogsterking]

Aisa publicly confirms you are conftown D5 and not D4.)

I think you will have good evidence though as long as Aisa crumbs your message.

[Frogsterking]

Frog is killing Bella

ack

The Doctor hath given life, and now the Doctor taketh life away

[Frogsterking]

Okay other way around where I write draft and you approve?

[Frogsterking]

I just had a dream about this, I kind of know what to write.

I agree though fooling people is a pretty draining way to use these skills in the long term. Datisi mentioned that playing scum is literally clowning (like the profession of being a clown) and AFAIK there are some players like myself--and Elements based on their EoD comments--who prefer tougher games where scum really get in deep.

[Frogsterking]

“Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! You know, I just... *do* things.”

i'm sorry frog i have some shit in my life to deal with rn. this is really bad from me at a very inopportune time game wise but ultimately, from my side, it's for the best.
besides life pressures, my heart just isn't into fooling people. eh. your joat ideas are solid(finder/cop n2).

idk what else to say, i'm disapointed but that's a common theme when it comes to me lol.

i had fun with you and bbt and everyone else. i hope you kick some ass lol >.<

(Also i have a light migraine starting to build rn aaaagh. even if i weren't dropping u i wuld still be shit at whatever else rn)

well....

: (

Have fun! @_@

Okay other way around where I write draft and you approve?

at this point i don't mind you making my decisions for me, if you really think we can risk bella not killing me i can mail. ill give claims some thought.

If I don't hear back before it's time to complete night actions then I'm going to interpret this way.

[Frogsterking]

*Bleck* I just took my meds with some very hot tea and the tea partially melted the capsules and made them get stuck in my throat. Disgusting. Anyway, pills have been downed and typing will commense once I can peel myself off this carpet.

[Frogsterking]

Hmm not stressed at all, I can always cry myself to sleep.

https://screenrant.com/dark-knight-heat ... explained/

This is interesting.

Anyway, I'm intending to write the letter in Eira's voice. Replacement can pretend they failed to submit a night action or chose not to because they had no idea what was going on.

[Frogsterking]

I guess to simplify things replacement can always claim lazy joat to aisa and tellher they have no idea what's going on, ask if they should claim, and beg for help.