HMS Mutiny [Game Over]

[Killing Joke]

D1 of a large, eugh.
VOTE: Malakittens
Miller go yeet.

I’m going to say that this probably legit for Mala. Also the matter of fact way she claimed is more likely to be town in general

@RR, @Eira are you allowed to explain why you’re posting the way you are?

Haven’t been able to discuss anything with Frogs yet, unfortunately.

~Harley (Nancy)

[Killing Joke]

@all

I think a 16 player setup usually has 12:4 town:scum which is scumsided heavily by default (before taking into account the impact of Theme and TPRs) and I think the Black Spot mechanic is part of a holistic design attempt to give Town better chances.

This makes me slightly skeptical of Mala's miller claim on a mechanical level, though I believe the sorting in 77 looks genuine, so it kind of evens out. I also disagree claiming is the only way to play miller.

Also because of this I'm fine policy chucking anyone who advocates for a mass claim D1/D2.

On an unrelated note, I'm also good policy chucking anyone who advocates for a "high info" lim without a mechanical argument at any point in the game. Dayplay 101:

Scummy+low poster lim > scummy+high poster lim > anyone else

@Bella

@Eiralox

@Mala

@Titus

Hey! How are you?

@HPE

Is 12 really all you have to say on the cards you drew? You can't elaborate any further about what they mean?

@Wayword

Can you say something that makes me want to Townread you because right now you're one of my three scum reads and 83 does nothing for me.

@Elements

Why the chess in 55? Is playing chess within a mafia game normal behavior from you?

[Killing Joke]

@titus, killing joke is Nancy and frog!
@killing joke, hi! Ask me a question? Who are your three scum reads?


I can see some of the roles being swingy, so I'm kinda fine with the miller claim for now.

Yes and do you have any solid reads yet Town or scum?

I'd consider my Flea read solid and I'd end the day now to shoot them if given the option. My other two scum reads are more ambivalent.

I scum read Elements:

i am drunk

I can't tell if this is some sort of claim or a comment on the state of real life enchant

I'm assuming i have to include the previous moves and that should be kings bishop to c5

Elements' question to Enchant is a scum tell and Elements seems like they engaged with Passenger primarily to pocket them and bloat the thread.

Flea:

What do we do with a drunken sailor?
What do we do with a drunken sailor?
What do we do with a drunken sailor?
Err-lye in the mooorning!

Put 'im in the brig until he's sober!
Put 'im in the brig until he's sober!
Put 'im in the brig until he's sober!
Err-lye in the mooorning!

D1 of a large, eugh.
VOTE: Malakittens
Miller go yeet.

The slot's first post is +scum for like 5 different reasons and the song post seems designed to coast.

And--though I'm liking them the more they post--Wayword Son:

This happens right in the middle of cooking dinner. I call shenanigans.

I'll be back in a few hours with (maybe RVS).

See ya then.

Of all the votes out there right now, STD's case seems the best, but I'm leery.

@STD Why should I sheep you?

I think it's too early to be claiming to have reviewed any cases and I'm leery the slot's first post was a tactical delay because they realized scum posting takes more energy. I think they've already exited most player's scum range since these posts so that makes me less confident on them.

[Killing Joke]

@all

Any info out there on Wayword Son?

@HPE

Is 12 really all you have to say on the cards you drew? You can't elaborate any further about what they mean?

Hey, never said this one is a professional.

That's true. How do you expect to improve though if you won't try to deliver when an audience asks for more?

Killing Joke, what site are you from? I've played on a lot, but most have a universal miller requirement that says you're not from here. I appreciate the bit about how you think. I'll return the favor.

I have no problem randomly voting someone while wagons are forming. I use it to get reactions and analyze vote patterns later (VCA). I look to get in people's heads and predict how they'll move on a sociological and psychological manner but I find meta less useful as that can be adapted while personality can't. The differences tell alignment.

No one has any real good reasons for votes yet as it's RVS.

StD's vote countering Wayward Son is interesting but I don't know what to make of it yet.

I'm a player that likes to get wagons going.

That's too funny that you won the anonymous alt game by guessing my identity!

I agree you are good with VCA and you're proactive about getting info.

Something else you helped me realize is that sometimes I need to use my role sooner than I think and other times I need to wait for others to make plays first. I feel like I understood that in really simple games but in complex games I didn't get that until I watched you play.

If this helps any, I think Dragons can be pre flipped as Town. Does that change anything wrt your Wayword analysis?

[Killing Joke]

I think ye be readin' a bit much into Wayward Son's claim o' readin' cases. It be worth notin' Fenrir'd been votin' hisself at the time, and the "case" comment be keepin' with the spirit of ARRRGH VS.

I do think I agree with ye 'bout the Flea, though I question why ye wouldn't be votin' fae if ye feel so strongly 'bout it?

Good question; there is a specific reason and it's because I thought about it and decided I wanted to talk to Harley first.

Hmm, suppose you're right. Let's give it a go then.

I haven't read your tarot reading in-depth yet but it looks +town on a quick skim. Thank you for posting it and I will read it again soon.

@Elements

Why the chess in 55? Is playing chess within a mafia game normal behavior from you?

Haven't done it before, but I'd say it's in character

That's what worries me, a very poor choice of words on your part. How come you aren't posting any reads lists yet? You did that already by now in the last completed Town game you played with me.

[Killing Joke]

I've played with you before?!

Which game was that?

Everything Frog says feels incredibly slimy to me

Frog is out of it right now

Above the line
Aisa
Bella
Eira
The Line ------------
Enchant
Grib
NM
Below the line


























































Frog

[Killing Joke]

@Flea. any reads so far other than Mala?

We both strongly tr RR. I was afraid to because they successfully pocketed me in Elected Decisions.

I kind of like Titus not knowing who we are. I think she’d probably be paying more attention to that as scum? \_0_/

Bella’s tone seems good.

@Passenger why do you sr HPE?

I told Joker that that I believe I can correctly parse Flea, because I trust myself to read them accurately. Idk why you think fare’s fine though @Bella. I could go with NIA. Joker’s pretty much locked convinced on STD!town but I’m currently nia on them.

And wrt voting, we’re probably going to do that as a team, since we don’t want to waste posts unvoting the other if we disagree.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

I don’t std scum would make a vote like this right now.

There is a scum motivation for it though which has nothing to do with pushing our slot through.

[Killing Joke]

I’m like the killing joker posts for town. Mainly because I know frogs meta and this is definitely the town game.

As for STD I was back and forth tryingest to figure out his alignment in my brain. His early game felt more scummy, but as this day is progressing I’m going back to a soft town read. I don’t std scum would make a vote like this right now.

@STD, you’re claiming a reaction test on our slot? Yes? In what universe did you not think, that I would not find that suspicious? Now that that game has ended, town!STD did exactly the same thing in the Temple game, so because he had never actually done it before - despite it being beyond silly and lame - still bought it as authentic but there’s pretty much no way in hell, STD expects me to seriously fall for it two games, back to back.

VOTE: STD

[Killing Joke]

Dragons and implosion are Teal and Red respectively. Scum buddies. This is from D1 Masque.

I'm not writing them off as TVT, I just think they are writing each other off as scum prematurely.

I don't think that's what you said if i'm being honest, but if that's not what you meant then I do agree with you, the fight of "no you!" "no you!" back and forth is kind of premature to be so confident.

I track people by avatars so having them all be the same but colorswapped is going to be difficult for me.

Holy hell what is even going on in purple's posts

I don't think I like calling green mafia for posting just to post while being sick, I think that's an easy trap to fall for but doesn't actually tell you anything AI

This post is awfully lacking in real stances. Do you have any real opinion on Purple, or on the people (Yellow, myself, and Blue) who expressed that sentiment toward Green?

No, I don't because the game just started and just because it's 6 days long doesn't mean it doesn't take me like 6 days to figure out where my head's at. I'm not going to lie and pretend like I know what I'm doing already when half the field has barely posted.

The above quotes are Dragons speaking with his scum partner implosion D1 in an anonymous alt game. They did this thing where Dragons acted scummy and implosion pushed him D1 for distancing. It's exactly what he and Elements are doing here:

VOTE: killing joke

Not a fan

VOTE: killing joke

Not a fan

Why

VOTE: killing joke

Not a fan

Why

It's a slot that's actively playing the game and pushing it forwards. You're the only person on them so it's not like it's a pressure vote.
You've basically said it's a reaction test at this point so what has my reaction told you?

Why do you think scum would blatantly target an activite slot like that

Elements i think you're getting fussed over a playstyle difference but you're not sring me. You could be a partner of kj soft defending them but I think you're just town enraptured by their content

TBH Mala I don't know what you were thinking about in 146 because I don't think you asked yourself any of the relevant questions like:

1) Why did Dragons vote our slot seemingly out of nowhere for absolutely no reason?
2) Why is Elements suddenly going out of their way to push Dragons and white knight our slot?
3) Why is Dragons pretending to be agitated for absolutely no reason or provocation? (137)
4) Why does Dragons play make no sense internally based on what he claims to be doing? (133)

I dislike your conclusion, Mala, because it completely overlooks the only logical conclusion about Dragon's play: it's an obviously scummy move which gives Elements an excuse to push Dragons and set her own slot up for endgame. There is literally no other reason, Town or scum, for Dragons to play the way they have over the last couple of pages.

[Killing Joke]

Dragons reuses his scum material so much you can track where he is on his agenda beat-for-beat:

(in response to Red)

Yes, and if I were an intruder, I would have lied and come up with suspicions, it wouldn't have been hard to parrot or invent some.

(in response to Elements)

Why do you think scum would blatantly target an activite slot like that

[Killing Joke]

I’m like the killing joker posts for town. Mainly because I know frogs meta and this is definitely the town game.

As for STD I was back and forth tryingest to figure out his alignment in my brain. His early game felt more scummy, but as this day is progressing I’m going back to a soft town read. I don’t std scum would make a vote like this right now.

@STD, you’re claiming a reaction test on our slot? Yes? In what universe did you not think, that I would not find that suspicious? Now that that game has ended, town!STD did exactly the same thing in the Temple game, so because he had never actually done it before - despite it being beyond silly and lame - still bought it as authentic but there’s pretty much no way in hell, STD expects me to seriously fall for it two games, back to back.

VOTE: STD

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

Explain how you went from softing mason to dueling each other please. I'm too exhausted to parse readwalls and I'm fixin to be too drunk to.

Nah you can read 4 posts yourself and you should slow down with the drinks because I don't think "dueling" and "one-sided lambasting of Dragon's scummy play" are the same construct.

[Killing Joke]

town!STD did exactly the same thing in the Temple game, so because he had never actually done it before - despite it being beyond silly and lame - still bought it as authentic but there’s pretty much no way in hell, STD expects me to seriously fall for it two games, back to back.

Are ye sayin' Fenrir's scum because he be actin' like he did on another crew? Seems to me like ye should be readin' 'im as loyal fer that, nay?

He actually claimed to have a reason for his vote in that and while objectively bad, at least he didn’t do it-

because why would scum like naked vote a townie player. Omg, STD absolutely has to be town for that.

and what world ever would any person think it makes an iota of sense to perform a very similar reaction test on the very same player you just did it too?

It looks to me like he’s wants to be tr for naked voting us, like why couldn’t scum also do that?

[Killing Joke]

@andres

@BBT

@Mala

@Enchant

@ActionDan

@Passenger

If they are why did you not put a vote down earlier

Too many choices. But seriously, too many choices.

I'm about 50/50 in participating in RVS. This time I Didn't. shrug

Can you pick a few slots (like maybe ~4) you think or feel are more suspicious than the rest, Wayward? I think that would be helpful for the quiet slots to do as well. I believe there are exactly one or two scummers hiding in the slots above and I'd like to help flush them out.

town!STD did exactly the same thing in the Temple game, so because he had never actually done it before - despite it being beyond silly and lame - still bought it as authentic but there’s pretty much no way in hell, STD expects me to seriously fall for it two games, back to back.

Are ye sayin' Fenrir's scum because he be actin' like he did on another crew? Seems to me like ye should be readin' 'im as loyal fer that, nay?

I know this is addressed to Harley and I'd like to respond as well. The argument that Dragons is reaction testing doesn't address the scumminess of posts like 137. Town!Dragons reaction testing Harley doesn't require faking agitation and a dubious interaction with Elements. Town!Dragons is also interfering with the effectiveness of their own reaction test (133.) While on a surface level "Dragons reaction tested Harley" is logical and does explain the naked vote, the way it was executed after that appears unlikely that sorting Harley was Dragon's actual intent at all.

[Killing Joke]

Explain how you went from softing mason to dueling each other please. I'm too exhausted to parse readwalls and I'm fixin to be too drunk to.

Nah you can read 4 posts yourself and you should slow down with the drinks because I don't think "dueling" and "one-sided lambasting of Dragon's scummy play" are the same construct.

I had a really awful Townread on Dragons and I realized I was wrong because Dragons made an egregious scum play. In the read walls I explain what I saw, where I've seen it before and what the implications are. In this case, not only is Dragons a solid scum read but Elements is implicated just as strongly because it's an SvS tell. It's excellent news. I am not sure why I got so angry and I'm sorry that I did.

[Killing Joke]

I'm sorry to you too, Mala, I was too harsh I think in 149. I really don't think your read in 146 is that bad, I was Townreading Dragons at the beginning of this game for a terrible reason. I think if you already suspected Dragons before his naked vote then now isn't the time to stop because I believe his vote and subsequent interaction is actually an element of his scum game which I've seen before.

[Killing Joke]

I’m like the killing joker posts for town. Mainly because I know frogs meta and this is definitely the town game.

As for STD I was back and forth trying to figure out his alignment in my brain. His early game felt more scummy, but as this day is progressing I’m going back to a soft town read. I don’t std scum would make a vote like this right now.

I obviously disagree with Mala’s take on STD but how do you read this and come to the conclusion Mala’s not sorting?

@Passenger

[Killing Joke]

How exactly was Mala sorting in post 77?

D1 of a large, eugh.
VOTE: Malakittens
Miller go yeet.

Flea go yeeeet.

Also, I don’t like the way you ask Wayward why he should be townread? I see similar posts by scum on chat mafia sites a lot.

That's funny because I've mostly played chat mafia myself and I don't remember this being a thing. Making up tells and claiming they exist in other metas was definitely a chat mafia tactic, though. Is that what you've been practicing?

[Killing Joke]

You said in your post that Mala was sorting in 77. I am asking you why you thought that.

In case you missed it, your question was answered 8 minutes before you made this post.

[Killing Joke]

Nah you don’t bucko. No way you think this is my scumgame here, no freaking way. Our vote’s NOT moving.

How am I playing any differently here than Temple? I’m clearly not and anyone only has to read that game to know you’re being disingenuous here.

[Killing Joke]

ya know something...

StD and Elements can go in a barrel and be left on deck for a bit.

Annoyingly I have too little experience with Mala to be able to start reading her... NAAANCY!

Speaking of...

I’m like the killing joker posts for town. Mainly because I know frogs meta and this is definitely the town game.

As for STD I was back and forth tryingest to figure out his alignment in my brain. His early game felt more scummy, but as this day is progressing I’m going back to a soft town read. I don’t std scum would make a vote like this right now.

@STD, you’re claiming a reaction test on our slot? Yes? In what universe did you not think, that I would not find that suspicious? Now that that game has ended, town!STD did exactly the same thing in the Temple game, so because he had never actually done it before - despite it being beyond silly and lame - still bought it as authentic but there’s pretty much no way in hell, STD expects me to seriously fall for it two games, back to back.

VOTE: STD

StD was town in that game though. Not sure what you're falling for or what this is aiming for

Nancy

Harley?

149 be spicy from the Joker, wanna see how this progresses given I can't work out what the reads are coming from this... o.O Definitely interesting though :3

Which reminds me

@Joker

still wanna know what was scummy about that post, I ain't having your slot cruise by on my ability to read Nancy.

I'm not seeing the commonality in the two posts in 150 ngl. Eugh frogs giving me the bad vibes (not scummy, just ew in general - seems to be a thing we& do more lately -.-;)


Apparently Caffine isn't enough for this game.

Elements is a member of this fine ship I wouldn't mind walking the plank. They're shirking their responsibilities, playing chess while our ship is in crises.

Keelhaul that filthy landlubber
Send him down to the depths below
Make that bastard walk the plank
With a bottle of rum and a yo ho ho

Alestorm - Keelhauled

Flea's 111 sucked.

Read it again and you'll see why it sucked.

You do need to read me, which is one of the reasons I’m so suss on STD. I just don’t believe his read on us is genuine.

[Killing Joke]

i don't know that you're scum i'm just voting you right now because i think it's the most likely option but if you want to prove me wrong you can try

I have a much beter idea sport, why don’t YOU prove me wrong because I really don’t think I am wrong on you.

[Killing Joke]

Normally I'm happy to read a hydra based on one head - in this case that would be you, as someone I know, respect and honestly fear at times - but I'm struggling to read you.

SCUM AGENDA DETECTED

On sites like mafia.gg this was definitely a thing that I’ve frequently seen. Scum would often ask lurkers why they should be townread at which point the lurker would be forced to answer and then scum would use that as an excuse to pile on. Not the best tell, but it’s a start.

Fair enough, I've only played a couple games on that website. IIRC I asked that question without much forethought because I wanted to see how Wayword Son reacted to my FoS and to start engaging with them right away. I probably would have doubled down on them if they had been really defensive or overly agreeable. I'm null-Town on Wayword Son now and probably won't push them unless they do something really scummy.

[Killing Joke]

I do need to read you, the problem is at the moment either through the Harley shenangians or otherwise I can't get a grip on you yet and Joker is obfuscating that.

Normally I'm happy to read a hydra based on one head - in this case that would be you, as someone I know, respect and honestly fear at times - but I'm struggling to read you. I can't follow your logic here and they harley mask is stopping me getting the emotive read on you accurately.

i don't know that you're scum i'm just voting you right now because i think it's the most likely option but if you want to prove me wrong you can try

Hot take: I think Flea could be town here. I was initially worried far might possibly have been pocketing me earlier but faer’s recent posts look likr fae’s genuinely sorting. Unlike the above post from STD which I fail to see any townie thought process whatsoever. lol

Also liking Flea’s 191. Flea’s sounds like a real read compared the very obvious fake one from STD.

If posting Harley gifs is really keeping you from reading me than I can stop but after I saw Joker doing it, I thought it looked kinda fun. \_0_/

I don’t believe either 194 or that post about Elements being somehow enraptured ever come from town. In Schadd’s game STD actually had albeit wrong but actually non-bs reasons to push me. None of his posts sound sincere to me.

[Killing Joke]

the Harley thing you have going on is more than the gifs.

I'm suspicious of comments like this, this sounds very manipulative.

[Killing Joke]

(I'll go out of character a bit here because trying to wrap it in pirate speak isn't working I think.

But what I'm asking is what about Nancy's play here makes you think she's RPing? I'll acknowledge you know her better than I do, but to me this looks like pretty normal Nancy play.)

I have figured out the answer to this question when you're ready to hear it from me.

Also, your pirate speak is easy to understand all things considered, miscommunication isn't the problem

[Killing Joke]

the Harley thing you have going on is more than the gifs.

I'm suspicious of comments like this, this sounds very manipulative.

Whatever it is you're smoking, could I have some?

Still waiting on why 5 reasons my opening is scummy from your pov, and now I want to know why/how this is manipulative.

This is just typical scum assigning busy work to Town while contributing nothing. I'm not doing chores for a slot who actively refuses to commit to a single read on any player in the game. Your ISO is atrocious. Harley said you would be AI over time and by God she was correct. Your next step as scum!Flea--since your faux pas attempt to pocket me in 191 has failed--is to chainsaw us for Dragons. You are fence sitting ALL OF YOUR READS while you wait to see how much you have to commit in order to save Dragons. How convenient your reads are ambiguous when wagons are taking shape and how quickly they will form soon once it's clear who you need to push in order to create a counter wagon for Dragons.

By the way, tell Elements hi in the scum chat for me, Flea, I'm aware she panicked (172) and ghosted the thread after I pointed out her theater with Dragons.

[Killing Joke]

Apologies, probably not going to be able to read up on this tonight.

VOTE: STD

Is this still the biggest wagon?

Yes and it's a scum flip who was caught doing theater with Elements so you will get lots of town cred for this vote.

How can you possibly think you have 3 scum reads correct

... @ everyone except Dragons & scum team:

This is scum!Dragons from a recently completed Large Normal reacting while I scream he AND his scum buddies need to die on D1:

VOTE: frogsterking

This is just unreal there's no way this is legit

i'm calling the garbage that is flung against me garbage, not just any suspicion

I was talking to frogsterking my bad

Just because you are loud doesn't mean you are right

I was talking to frogsterking my bad

What do you want me to change my mind on?

i want you to reevaluate my slot and come out with the correct answer but you're obviously so confirmed bias that literally everything i do is perceived through a wolfy lens that you'll find some way to make this basic plea for rational-ness a scum tell.

And yes Dragons was voting my slot for lol reasons like he's doing now, he did "distancing" with his scum buddies while I pushed them simultaneously, etc. Dragons is well aware that I can have three accurate scum reads by this point in the game (202) because he's already gone through that recently, like you can see above.

[Killing Joke]

This is pretty comical at this point

Honestly, this is making me town you just from the shear volume of nonsense frog is spouting

Stop creeping around on the sidelines with your tail tucked between your legs and chainsaw us already for Dragons. It's obvious you two are Mutineers and your read progression on our slot is already too wacked out to be salvaged anyway, voting us for lol reasons can't make you be any *less* Town.

[Killing Joke]

Okay Elements it's your turn, time to pile on and try to vote out the scary clowns with the sharp reads so 3/4 your scum team can go back to twiddling their thumbs.

Please show me this "read progression" on you

Exactly.

You don't have one, you white knight our slot (131) before you townread us and it goes downhill from there.

[Killing Joke]

You know something

VOTE: Killing Joke

The level of reach in your posts is honestly disgusting.
We're 2 days in, you're literally throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks and accepting nothing in return. I tried to be nice, but its clear that The Joker is always going to be scum.

so yes I am going to vote you
VOTE: Killing Joker

Here we go, finally, moving along as was telegraphed by Elements and Flea.

Now Elements and Flea are chainsawing us for Dragons and forming the counter wagon for him at the same time.

A Dragons D1 flip will hit scum and provide evidence that our assessment of the gamestate is accurate.

There is a reason that SvS tells are helpful and it isn't because they're consistent; it's because they're devastating, and if you've never seen Town push them correctly D1 before then prepare to be amazed by how many Mutineer flips Town can pull off in a row this game.

[Killing Joke]

I hate using associatives preflip. No one has ever amazed me and no one ever will.

This is the game you open your heart!

List of players you've outright said are scum:
Wayward
Flea
Elements
StD

I haven't posted a compiled reads list and when I do I will be the one who posts it: not you.

I stopped reading here because your post is deliberately misleading and made to look contrived on purpose. I FoSed Wayward at the very beginning of the game and have since re evaluated their slot multiple times, for example in 45 I state very clearly that I'm null-Town on them.

This post is essentially trying to reframe my active solving in the thread and posting reads as being scummy or phantasmagorical when it is in fact...playing the game to win as Town.

[Killing Joke]

and it looks dodgy it's because it is

I haven't posted a compiled reads list and when I do I will be the one who posts it: not you.

I'm not saying these are your reads I'm saying this is what you have done

I hate using associatives preflip. No one has ever amazed me and no one ever will.

This is the game you open your heart!

List of players you've outright said are scum:
Wayward
Flea
Elements
StD

I haven't posted a compiled reads list and when I do I will be the one who posts it: not you.

I stopped reading here because your post is deliberately misleading and made to look contrived on purpose. I FoSed Wayward at the very beginning of the game and have since re evaluated their slot multiple times, for example in 45 I state very clearly that I'm null-Town on them.

This post is essentially trying to reframe my active solving in the thread and posting reads as being scummy or phantasmagorical when it is in fact...playing the game to win as Town.

200 Wayward Sons is null-Town.

[Killing Joke]

which is exactly the second list. You cannot deny either. You cannot use Nancys posts of her reads to wriggle out of what you're doing.

I don't know which one but you have a post of mine mixed up with Nancy's for sure. If it's the one I quoted with the card then I was quoting to add the right post link and to show the post was mine.

I saw that you're trying to refurbish Elements approach of pretending like there is something uncanny about my reads other than the fact they actually exist. Good luck with that approach.

[Killing Joke]

You know something

VOTE: Killing Joke

The level of reach in your posts is honestly disgusting.
We're 2 days in, you're literally throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks and accepting nothing in return. I tried to be nice, but its clear that The Joker is always going to be scum.

Flea is scum here. *cries*


STD scumposted when he made that post with if we PROVE we’re town to him, he’ll TRY o read us but anyone who knows how to read me correctly can tell I’m town here and Flea knows I can never be scum here, so yeaah I tr faer for paranoia on our slot but complete inability to correctly read me, Joker might be right then.

ANYONE SOLELY FOCUSED On JOKER’S POSTS And IGNORING MINE ARE PLAYING VERY BADLY And Are The MOST LIKELY To Be SCUM PUSHING US

.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

Elements i think you're getting fussed over a playstyle difference but you're not sring me. You could be a partner of kj soft defending them but I think you're just town enraptured by their content

i don't know that you're scum i'm just voting you right now because i think it's the most likely option but if you want to

prove

me wrong you can

try

@STD I really really hate both of these posts, we hadn’t really posted that much, especially me, prior to you posting 137.

Tell mr why I should tr 194: You say that if we PROVE we’re town, you’ll TRY to tr us. How is that a townie thought process?

If we proved it, then why would you need to even try? Of course since we’re not IC, you can of course claim for whatever reason we haven’t but it’s the if we could prove it, then you would try.

I’m now really worried about Flea because for faer, paranoia on me is absolutely townie for faer but not seeing how I’m bleeding obviously town here, is extremely concerning and makes me now wonder if Joker is right because I don’t believe there’s a world where town!Flea completely ignores MY posts like that. Even if faer thinks Joker lookd scummy - that’s his typical towngame. Metadive him whomever’s town. But fae should absolutely know that this is my obvtown meta here.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

which is exactly the second list. You cannot deny either. You cannot use Nancys posts of her reads to wriggle out of what you're doing.

I don't know which one but you have a post of mine mixed up with Nancy's for sure. If it's the one I quoted with the card then I was quoting to add the right post link and to show the post was mine.

I saw that you're trying to refurbish Elements approach of pretending like there is something uncanny about my reads other than the fact they actually exist. Good luck with that approach.

OK fair enough, 200 is a joker post, I thought it was a nancy post. My bad. I'll give you that, however, it doesn't change what you have done, which is exactly what Elements has said. Whatever context you're adding to this isn't there. youve accused those people of being scum or thrown sus at them - not that it's a current readslist.
Whatever you're trying to show Elements is doing, isn't there.
I stand by go take a night off.

You know something

VOTE: Killing Joke

The level of reach in your posts is honestly disgusting.
We're 2 days in, you're literally throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks and accepting nothing in return. I tried to be nice, but its clear that The Joker is always going to be scum.

Flea is scum here. *cries*


STD scumposted when he made that post with if we PROVE we’re town to him, he’ll TRY o read us but anyone who knows how to read me correctly can tell I’m town here and Flea knows I can never be scum here, so yeaah I tr faer for paranoia on our slot but complete inability to correctly read me, Joker might be right then.

ANYONE SOLELY FOCUSED On JOKER’S POSTS And IGNORING MINE ARE PLAYING VERY BADLY And Are The MOST LIKELY To Be SCUM PUSHING US.

~Harley

For the love of the gods Nancy if you're town here you have a massive upwards battle and coming at me because your other head is scummy as hell trying to frame that as me being scummy and "ignoring you" is bad and pre-emptively its even worse. I'm not ignoring you, I'm trying to read you. Problem is your other head is literally thowing everything at the wall to see what sticks and is ignoring everything else.

I have always and will continue to go on if one head is scummy af then then hydra is scummy af.
I have caught hydra slots like this before, its a thing that works for me, you know this. Hell it came up once or twice when I've basically anxietied at you because I know people freaking hate me for it!

I've even done it to you where I've ripped the hydra down because of a single head. Admittedly in that game I had mechanical backup and was under an alt but still.

Hell thinking about it, you know all this, you know how I work, so this just gets worse that you're already setting up a shove on me because of that...

I was genuinely hoping you were Town, Nancy. You were having fun, but you jumped immediately the moment I dropped a vote to a full defence.

Of course I did because you are doing now exactly what I just said:

IGNORING MY POSTS And ONLY FOCUSING On JOKER’S

. This is his typical town meta, look it up. He finds some reason whether actually apy or sometimes even imo quite silly and pushes you to get a reaction. Reaction testing helps him sort you. Problem is that kind of playstyle can get you wrongly sr if you don’t already know this is Frogs’ typical town meta.

He doesn’t realize that he’s as likely to piss of town as well as scum with that playstyle and people can wrongly sr that. I know I did in Masque. Frogs was practically deathtunnelling me for truthfully saying that I had trouble logging into my anonymous account due to password issues.

And eventually he did a complete 180 on me and I then became his top townread. So anyone who’s seriously sr us due to Frog’s playstyle can do an easy metadive to realize that’s bullshit.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

Harley you also know I don't metadive, the meta I use is the meta I've gained from playing with people -.-;

Then you should be able to tell this is MY town meta here, how can you not? Why are you only parsing Joker when I tell you that’s typically how he plays as town and frequently gets miselimed for doing that too but shit, he usually gets at least one scum if not more right in his solves, so it’s pretty much guaranteed he’s right on at least one or more of those reads based off of past games of his. He caught scum!Math in LOST and scum!Roden and scum!RR right out of the gate in Elected Decisions. And jsyk, anyone who’s played with me ever and removing my posts out of the equation and only focussing on Joker’s is suss to me because we are two heads and anyone willing to do a metacheck can absolutely confirm that what he’s done so far in this game is typical for Frogs’ towngame.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

VOTE: Killing Joke

If nothin' else ye need to get yer heads sorted, but regardless of any o' that, I think ye've made it clear enough where yer loyalties lie.

An' fer the record Harley, it be mostly you shiverin' me timbers right now, so I don't wanna be hearin' nothin' about ignorin' ye

Reversing my tr on you. You know I’m playing nothing here like I did in Even Odd Killers, so maybe you and STD are buddies here because his read on me is seriously bad and you should know from our discord convos during Double Agency, I’m town here, so bad news that there’s some extremely lazy town and pretty obvious scum here.

Of the people currently voting us, Elements actually looks the best but if she stays on us after my posting what I just did about Frog’s I may have to reacess that but I actually think RR’s vote on us could possibly be the worst one yet because it really makes me wonder if RR is now coming at us specifically because Joker caught his buddy and wants us out of the way because RR knows how good Frog’s is at scumhunting because Frogs’ nailed them straight out of the gate in ED, so I read RR’s vote on us as possibly a fear vote and I don’t for one minute buy that RR believes I’m scum here, so if we get flipped and their on us, please revoke our RR tr post flip.

Mala like probably one of the most obvious town here.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

tmw your tile refreshes the wrong freaking page. Eugh.

Nancy you know my play better than anyone.
You know I can read you.
I know I can't read frog.
You know I do not meta dive.
You know I will latch on to a single head and take my read from there.
You know I'm a reactive player, worse than you can be some days.
When only Joker is posting, I can't exactly focus on both. I've looked at yours, I gave explanation why I have a little pause over your alignment. I've even said i'm going to try and focus on you because I can read you and not frog, who I think I've had 1 game with.

There's silly pushes, there's shit pushes, then theres manual extraction and yeeting it at the turbo propeller.

You are asking me to do things you know I

do not do

and using that I do not do them as a defence.

Your townmeta to me is you have fun, even when someone throws a bit of sus you have fun. Here you're throwing meta at me, hyperfixed on how I'm reading you and being crushed already with almost no pressure.

Most importantly you know I've caught you like this before, and you've seen me catch hydras like this before. I've always done it like this, trying to paint me red for it isn't a good look for you.

We are going to flip town so how do you think that will look for you then?

And no you haven’t caught me because I’m going to flip town and this game is thankfully not flipless, so if you’re town here, you will be dealing with the consequences of not being able to read me accurately.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

I haven't gotten to brass tacks yet with kj vs. Everyone, but I just wanted to say that Mala looks to be clearly town now

People pushing us who either don’t know don’t care about Frogs’ meta.
People suddenly sr me for God only knows what possibly reasons, right AFTER I pointed that out,
And RR if scum here, would definitely try to shade me not Frogs because I don’t have a particularly good BoP on them but Frog’s otoh absolutely does, so something to think about if we flip.

[Killing Joke]

I'm honestly not that bothered how I look post flip, and whatever the consequences of your flip are, I will deal with them.

Thing is Nancy we're DAY 3 into D1 and still have about 7 days left and you're already in a panic. Like yeah this isn't entirely out of character for you but this early is throwing me honestly.

Since when is that ever ai for me? What game ever - unless I’m a literal joker - don’t I “panic” when I’m getting wagoned?

I don’t believe you can claim to have meta on me and not know this.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

So we’re being sr for Frogs doing what Frogs typically does. Check
I’m reacting like I typically do in pretty much every single game. Also check.

Being sr when I’m already out of my scumrange here. Also check

I don’t want us to get miselimed but I trust Frogs’ reads to know we won’t likely be dying in vain, so I’m pissed and frustrated but feel confident we will be vindicated whatever happens, so I’m actually not panicking, because I believe Frogs has done enough solving already that our flip will very likely catch some scum.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

The games we've hydra'd, you've been a calmer about early wagons - you haven't jumped to every possible defence available and in reach - including ones you know is the equivalent of throwing a sponge ball at a brick wall expecting it to take the wall out.

Panic is probably the wrong word here but I know you know what I mean. Heightened is probably the accurate word but its still missing something as its too less of a word.

You know that’s not true , so why are you saying otherwise? Do I really need to link my ISO from Schadd’s game - which you were in - and you locktowned me that game despite me flipping the fuck out for being wrongly sr, so Flea, please explain to me how in what world is my reaction to that even remotely scummy when I was clearly even more reactive in that game?

I have an excellent longterm memory, so you might not want to try that fyi.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

Subject: open 852: store bought potions (sold!)

Think Nancy has been really scummy. Her content is almost all reactive in a negative way.

Nancy is a reactive player and honestly her being here with IVD means frankly if they're scum they are probably actually a hard catch.

If every single reactive player was just scum then me, Nancy, and a few others here would just be policy.

Players like Enchant and N_M who active antitown Hammerers, and in n_ms case a gut lock tunnel don't even get a consideration.

Agressive players can often be scum and will attempt to control the game. Just because your passive playstyle doesn't work with reactionary players doesn't mean they're scum.


And yeah, I'm taking this game seriously.

@Flea this is what you said in this game. I was getting wrongly sr being overly reactive to being pushed and it didn’t stop you for locktowning me in that game, so maybe you’ve forgotten then because I think it’s extremely obvious that you didn’t consider my flipping out over receiving votes a scumtell in that game.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

Yeah I don't have an excellent long term memory, downside of my many conditions. Also means I need to try and keep my meta fresh.
There's been a few Schadd games I've been in and I couldn't tell you if I was on main, alt or hydra for pretty much all of them except the last potions one I was in and thats only because I needed to update my wiki page.

I can only assume I had different meta tells on you at the time and once upon a yonder you were more reactive than Sodium in water. You've mellowed a lot and you know that and I genuinely don't remember you exploding like this since I went on break and we played on Butterflies for a bit.

But hey once again with the "I have meta proof I can link you to!!" when you know I won't and you know the reason why - because my chronic adhd ass can't focus long enough to read a game and my memory issues make it a fruitless task anyway.

Like no seriously it's just taken me 2 hours between distractions to find a shiny Growlithe in an outbreak...

@Hey Flea quick question: which game came first viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89137&start=1075 Chromavalon or viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89510&start=2325. Store Bought Potions?
May 28 2022 Store Bought Potions

I got pretty riled up in LOST but that was before when I was hydraing with Titus, so don’t know how much you paid attention to that or not. Double Agency
does not count because of the unique mech and that is only narrow very small number of games we played in. My first game with you I also freaked out under an alt iirc but I don’t believe you honestly think my being reactive here. is ever scum indicative for me.

So to anyone who’s town here sr either of us for purely playstyle reasons, please explain for non-typical playstyle reasons why we’re scum here. Because I have yet to hear even one non-playstyle-based reason for anyone sr either of us for meta.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

STD what do you think of your town block mindmeld doing absolutely nothing to help or defend you

i feel like dwlee is naturally quiet and N_M is pushing in a way i'd expect N_M to push

i dunno. dwlee taking on nancy and wking me barely seems weird for scum to do on paper i mean why not just pile on unless there's already 2 scums on me and dwlee wants to be different

i think N_M is town?

@Roden. I disagree with this. NM has defended STD and when pressure on my slot dwindled, he started up the harassment again and it is harassment because I feel extremely scared I will lose it on him and get another ban. so it’s actually cruel what he’s doing to me at this point. No one should feel terrified that another player is upsetting them to the extent, they’re seriously worried about getting banned.

Flea please tell me how this is evidence of my being calm? I think you’re scum here trying to get me riled up because you know how my reactions to get pushed make me react and how people unfamiliar with my meta will mistakenly read that flailing or something and I think you’re doing it intentionally because if you were town here actually incorrectly reading me, you would never ever accuse me for being scum for over reacting.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

FWIW Rat I still think your slot is Town.

[Killing Joke]

I haven't gotten to brass tacks yet with kj vs. Everyone, but I just wanted to say that Mala looks to be clearly town now

People pushing us who either don’t know don’t care about Frogs’ meta.
People suddenly sr me for God only knows what possibly reasons, right AFTER I pointed that out,
And RR if scum here, would definitely try to shade me not Frogs because I don’t have a particularly good BoP on them but Frog’s otoh absolutely does, so something to think about if we flip.

(What does BoP mean here?)

Burden of Proficiency

It means history of good reads either in general or on a player. So in Elected Descisions, I wrongly tr in that and wrongly sr you in Turing but Frogs’ correctly sr you in that. So my theory is if your scum here, I’d be the smarter push because I don’t have a very good BoP on you.

Rn, my most confident srs are STD and now Flea. If ANYONE in this game would know that my getting upset at being sr is nia, it’s Flea and anyone ISOing me in Schadd’s game under both Nancy Sinatra and Venus and Mars would know that what Flea posted about that game and how apparently town!me was oh so chill about being wrongly wagoned when I literally had to beg NM to stop because I was so extremely upset at him, I was legit scared I’d do something that would get me banned if he didn’t stop and I eventually replaced out of that game because I just couldn’t continue to deal with it. But the difference here is that I wouldn’t necessarily expect NM to be particularly good at reading me but Flea seriously sr me for over reacting to getting voted is hella suss and I would very happily also lim Flea for pushing me for that.

However I think fae knows I will expectedly get very upset which fae damned well knows and I’m starting to think fae’s goading me with that.

If I get upset: Flea: Nancy panicking
I don’t: Flea: Nancy’s being too calm about this.



~Harley

[Killing Joke]

Flea I very respectfully am going to request you stop using a game where I was clearly frequently upset, agitated and clearly emotionally messed up in order for you to twist it to the exact opposite of what actually happened in that game. Find another bad reason to shitpush me because you clearly don’t give a flying fuck about actually trying to solve me.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=84991&user_select%5B%5D=34888

Anyway I posted your ISO from Royalty where you very convincingly hardpushed town!Pooky to the point where it really messed with him and he wound up being successfully pocketed by you. You definitely had me fooled with how convincingly you hardpushed Pooky in that game.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

Flea I very respectfully am going to request you stop using a game where I was clearly frequently upset, agitated and clearly emotionally messed up in order for you to twist it to the exact opposite of what actually happened in that game. Find another bad reason to shitpush me because you clearly don’t give a flying fuck about actually trying to solve me.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=84991&user_select%5B%5D=34888

Anyway I posted your ISO from Royalty where you very convincingly hardpushed town!Pooky to the point where it really messed with him and he wound up being successfully pocketed by you. You definitely had me fooled with how convincingly you hardpushed Pooky in that game.

~Harley

[In post 296, Killing Joke wrote:
However I think fae knows I will expectedly get very upset which fae damned well knows and I’m starting to think fae’s goading me with that. ~KJ

Thing is, I know you know all this will get to me. So who's goading who here?
I've been genuinely trying to read you, through all of this, using what I know of you, the language and word flow you use as I know you as town verses what you use as scum.

You're scum. Your language, your flow, your defences. These aren't town Nancy wanting to work with me, this is scum Nancy. ~Flea

@Flea my intention is not to upset you but it really does feel to me like you’re goading me with this and now you saying you seriously don’t care if twisting my emotional responses in thar game to use against me really hurt me, well it did and the above post was probably more harshly intended then I would have liked because I’m really not okay with that.

If there’s a world where you’re actually town doing this, then I have to ask why? How can you possibly be this blind as town and I just really don’t think you are, sorry. :/

I’m currently liking Mala, Eira. I’m sure there’s others but legit don’t feel that either Flea or STD has any real interest in sorting me here.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

So me main concern here is that while I don't fancy me chances o' correctly readin' Joker yet, Harley's postin' strikes me as more aggressive than it should be. She always gets bent out o' shape when folks start suspectin' 'er, 'tis true. Yet here she be weaponizin' that frustration, usin' it to harass 'n' shut down others rather 'en to defend herself.

An' I'll tell ye right now I've no interest in readin' through a list o' games ye throw at me, find somethin' that isn't self-meta if ye want me considerin' a rebuttal

Lol that is pretty much the antithesis of my scum meta. I am extremely rarely a powerwolf. Only done it in two scumgames of mine that I can remember, so it’s extremely disheartening that people are butchering my meta here. That’s the main reason I play with alts because I’m just so fed up with that bs. Either use my meta to correctly read me or don’t use it at all.

I’m throwing links because I’m getting bs sr based on bad meta reads and those links prove what I’m saying, so after you actually click them I’ll engage with this.

If anyone who’s town and not lazy wants me to respond to anything let me know but I’m not going to keep defending myself. Our flip will speak for itself.

~H

[Killing Joke]

I'm not usin' meta. Least not to the extent yer accusin' me of. I'm acknowledgin' yer meta exists 'n' why I don't consider it an excuse, but me read be that what yer doin' be mutinous in itself, not that it be mutinous because ye be the one doin' it.

But no, I won't be clickin' any o' yer links. I joined

this

crew, and this is the only crew I be concernin' meself with. An' I think the sailin'd go smoother if we all did the same.

Are we not supposed to hunt for mafia here? *Checks thread to make sure this game isn’t actually in the mish mash forum*

Yep, still a mafia game and I’m trying to protect the crew from ACTUAL mutineers, so if you oppose this, then explain why you disagree with either mine or Joker’s reads.

And Flea, since switching to signing my name made 0 difference, please enjoy my Harley “shenanigans”.

Again, really really frustrated with people misreading me in this game.

[Killing Joke]

Why is killing Joke scum for scumhunting?

Even if they're wrong, I've been seeing some weird takes on them. A few people basically voting for them either cos they're... solving? or cos I guess their tone doesn't gel well.

Regardless of KJ's true loyalties, what I'm seeing is them saying they found scum on the one side, seemingly believing and sticking with their point with definite progression.

From the other side I mostly see: 'So wrong' 'How can you' 'And wow why u sus so many ppl'.

Now.... My mind's nowhere set. But it's weird that so few people are willing to actively discuss the possibility of Dragons/Elements/Flea with KJ, and how, in a sense, Dragons, Elements, and Flea are ranged against KJ, and don't really seem to be mistrusting of each other? Or focused on a threat? I can expand on my feelings but I won't, for now.

As I said, KJ can be wrong. It's just weird, them being scum for it. I know there's way more that's been said but this is the main vibe I've got.

\0/ for sanity. RR’s most recent post led to my questioning mine.

@Flea you really did hurt me but I apologize for suggesting it was intentional but I honestly don’t understand why you would think that so extremely misrepping my emotional reactions from Schadd’s game as “calm” when they were anything but to use that to push me for my - according to you - “flailing panicked” reactions in THIS wasn’t cool by me and if you expressed even an iota of remorse about that really gutted me, I’d be able to get past it already.

Just like in that game, I am also town in this one and you can literally scream I’m lockscum until you’re blue in the face, it won’t make it anymore true than when NM did that and as long as you have a terribad vote on mr, sorry I’m not going to just ignore you blatantly trying to get me miselimed. Sorry not sorry.

Wrt to posting your ISO from that game, because your posts have made me extremely upset - and you making it blatantly clear you don’t have a problem with that - I made the next logical step and thought you might possibly be doing the exact same thing to me here. Apparently by your reaction, that was unfair and wrong of me to believe of you and I sincerely apologize but you really did hurt me and I’m appalled that you claim not to care about that.

I still think you’re probably scum here because I would expect town!you to never to lockscum!read me when I’m town.

@STD what happened? Are you suddenly tr me now? Why is HPE scum?

@Enchant - true in theory but not really in practice. Meta can change but it’s a myth to think it happens over night. If I were to link games from MU for example, people wouldn’t recognize me from those games. I frequently got miselimed on MU lots. So sure both my scum and towngames have obviously changed since I started playing mafia in 2017 but the changes have happened at a snail’s pace, pretty much.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

i don't tr you i just think HPE is more likely to be scum. i've listed reasons. they're not solving they're just saying information instead of analyzing. i think they're being careful and calculating like scum would be.

if i'm being honest i am losing my nerve a little due to the misplaced confidence frogster has in the associative flips (well i can't speak for elements and flea but i know you're wrong about me so when i flip green you're slots going to have to come up with an excuse). it seems like too much confidence which makes me wonder if your slot doesn't actually know i'm not scum.

i feel like you guys are throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks like flea suggested which makes me still question your slot

This is exactly how town!Frogs plays. How much did you read from Masque? Town!Frogs deathtunnelled me in that game for some pretty whack reasoning, then he suddenly did 180 on me and I became his #1 tr. It’s his playstyle and anyone who’s inclined to look that up can verify that’s not scum indicative for him.

Town!Flea should never ever lockscum read me here, because I don’t believe fae is that terrible at reading me. I’m still extremely suss on your initial naked vote on me, so I’m not trusting you.

How many people on here are actually familiar with Frogs’ meta? Scum!Pooky said in some game that Frogs’ meta is polarized and he typically does what he does here as town. As for me and why I’m so extremely suspicious of people sr me is that I think I’m already out of my scumrange here. I think that Frogs is probably right on at least one of his srs if not more and that’s why our slot was probably getting hardpushed, because Frogs almost always hits at least one scum if not more in his early reads, so why would this game be any different.

~H

[Killing Joke]

VOTE: Bella

I’m ok with this vote for now.
I don’t really feel like Bella is sorting. I also don’t really find a lot of her posts memorable. I also dislike some of the posts she made.

See, I'd like to know more bout this.

Why should posts be memorable this early?

Out of Enchant, BlueBloodedToffee and others, why specifically is Bellaphant the one chosen for not sorting?

Basically, can you at least share which posts you dislike and why?

Enchant is just being enchant. Enchant IS NAI. Enchant will sort themselves out during the course of the game.
BBT just seems like they haven't gotten a time to catch up so i'm just waiting for bbt to catch up.

as for bella i have seen her come out strong in rsv and i'm just not getting that vibe.

True she really hasn’t done much. @Bella come talk to us, what are your reads?

@STD, my obvious point being that anyone familiar with Frogs’ extremely impressive BoP on catching scum would understand why scum wants us dead, so almost willing to bet the game that at least one is currently voting us because they’re terrified of Joker.

~H

[Killing Joke]

i doubt it

So why? You hard tr everyone voting us? I find that really interesting, Like you’re seriously assuming our wagon is alltown because I seriously doubt that.

~H

[Killing Joke]

but let's say for argument's sake i did believe that to be the case.

who do you think is scared of frogster that's voting you?

i never said your wagon was all town

i'm doubting your premise that someone is scared of frogster and is voting for that reason

Yes because he has an impressive BoP of catching scum right out of the gate, so I would be extremely shocked if no scum were currently voting us.

but let's say for argument's sake i did believe that to be the case.

who do you think is scared of frogster that's voting you?

i never said your wagon was all town

i'm doubting your premise that someone is scared of frogster and is voting for that reason

Yes because he has an impressive BoP of catching scum right out of the gate, so I would be extremely shocked if no scum were currently voting us.

quote="In post 339, Radical Rat"]

Why is killing Joke scum for scumhunting?

Even if they're wrong, I've been seeing some weird takes on them. A few people basically voting for them either cos they're... solving? or cos I guess their tone doesn't gel well.

Regardless of KJ's true loyalties, what I'm seeing is them saying they found scum on the one side, seemingly believing and sticking with their point with definite progression.

From the other side I mostly see: 'So wrong' 'How can you' 'And wow why u sus so many ppl'.

Now.... My mind's nowhere set. But it's weird that so few people are willing to actively discuss the possibility of Dragons/Elements/Flea with KJ, and how, in a sense, Dragons, Elements, and Flea are ranged against KJ, and don't really seem to be mistrusting of each other? Or focused on a threat? I can expand on my feelings but I won't, for now.

As I said, KJ can be wrong. It's just weird, them being scum for it. I know there's way more that's been said but this is the main vibe I've got.

I don't think they do be scumhuntin' is me point. Don't ye find it the least bit strange that they be claimin' to solve this mutinous mystery Day 1, based on naught but the first few folks to vote 'em? Or that after proclaimin' such a solve, they keep throwin' out more on top?

They don't care 'bout findin' scum, they jus' care 'bout findin' anyone but themselves to toss[/quote]

No offence but this is such complete horseshit, we’ve been doing NOTHING but scumhunting. I don’t know how much more I can read of our play here getting so egregiously being misrepped before I legit lose it on someone.

~H

[Killing Joke]

who

also who cares

i guess that's the same question but still

I already answered that. I think it’s highly unlikely that the votes on us all come from town, even the majority. Of course it’s also possible scum could have been just coasting and letting it happen?

@Flea, I’m extremely paranoid of you because you’re generally a lot better at reading me but I feel bad if posting your ISO from Royalty hurt you, that was 100% never my intention.

I will tell you this, I don’t ever play dirty as scum because the only time I ever did that was a very early game where I was an SK and I said something really not okay to Cheeky who was hardpushing me and eventhough I had had profusely apologized to her and she has totally forgiven me for it, I still feel really bad that I even once sacrificed my integrity just to try to win a scumgame. I haven’t done anything like it before or since because the feeling of utter self-loathing I experienced after that was totally not worth it. I seriously hope you know me well enough to know that I would never intentionally try to hurt anyone, especially a very dear friend just to win a scumgame.

~H

[Killing Joke]

because i think it's frankly ridiculous to accuse anybody of being scared of frogster for whatever play he's ever done so

Well considering there’s some extremely impressive proof of Frogs’ doing just that in multiple games, I find your take to be ridiculous and if you’re town here, I don’t know why you wouldn’t be at all paranoid of scum sheeping your vote.

That part probably concerns me the most. How are you reading the voters currently on my my wagon and why?

~H

[Killing Joke]

tl;dr

Scum read Dragons/Elements/Flea/ActionDan (strongest - weakest)

Dialing down content wrt scum!Flea

Ask if you want my Town reads

__

Joker had a half-decent case against StD early on, but that's since kinda crumbled. His tone is kinda wacky and his points against Elements, Flea, and StD have all gotten out of whack, but it honestly... doesn't scumread him all that much. It feels like town misplaying rather than scum shitpushing from what it knows firsthand of his meta.

I think my

soul

ISO could have benefited a lot from judicial editing.

Someone asked why I read rr's gimmick different, but it's because there is actuall content.

@std, why?

@Bella

How do you feel about Eira's recent posts?

The lad's not even woken up yet! Do ye not have anythin' to say about the folks actually on deck?

@Rat

Can you talk about your read on Harley a little bit if you're still here? How tempted are you to see Dragon's flip instead and let our slot potentially resolve itself?

but let's say for argument's sake i did believe that to be the case.

who do you think is scared of frogster that's voting you?

Your vote, Elements' vote and Flea vote were all fear IMO. I think the fear from you and Elements is so strong even your fear votes themselves have fled from us (325, 354.) I think Rats is the only Town slot that's gotten on us IIRC.

Warning Flea The Magician and Killing Joke about posts including 294 and 301; specifics will be discussed by PM.

A general reminder to be kind to your fellow players.

When fights escalate to this level it's usually TvT IME with some exceptions. Apparently scum!Flea has executed something like this successfully once before to town!Pooky so it's within faer's scum range:

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=84991&user_select%5B%5D=34888

I feel strongly Flea is scum and I can also recognize objectively the likelihood of a TvT thunderdome so I'm going to put my read wrt Flea specifically on ice and hope that slot can be resolved mechanically.

If I could have everyone sheep me we will eliminate one scum butt

Sheep us D1 + D2 to initiate Town sweep

A tiny bit, been working; should have no more obligations tonight so I can spend quality time reading. To do this properly you have to read a lot.

I haven't gotten to brass tacks yet with kj vs. Everyone, but I just wanted to say that Mala looks to be clearly town now

I hate using associatives preflip. No one has ever amazed me and no one ever will.

I will take an honest slog through the meta. Reading those other games. Determining if existence is pointless. The usual

I'm still waiting for you to follow up on any of these promises to do something later.

As far as I'm concerned, talking about posts you will make later which never happen are +scum. Cagey comments about HPE, Killing Joke and Mala looking Town (45, 167, 277 respectively) appear borne of TMI and therefore +scum. Passive aggressive "kj sucks" implications appear like scum contempt and are therefore +scum (277, 245, 321.) If I really cared to stare deeply into your

soul

ISO, I could probably throw the whole book at you as far as "typical low energy scum poster voting scum buddy while shading active Town slots" go.

In fact, let me test my theory. I will open your ISO as long as I can and see if I can spot an example of "typical low energy scum poster voting scum buddy while shading active Town slots."

Ahh yes, ~5 seconds in and immediately something jumps out at me:

Read up.

VOTE: StD

First, this isn't a reaction test if he's willing to use associatives to divine a read on Elements 137. So let's make this simple: It's a bad vote against someone likely town. If there was "something to see" show us.

Town reads on RR who has essentially spent his time chastising someone in role play mode for voting a no Elim do not make sense to me.

Bella, what makes RR's posting a different caliber to eria's?

Flea's 111 sucked.

I think wayward has done alright extricating himself. I'll choose to believe his posts at face value.

Elements' posting leaves a lot to be desired but I'm not getting particularly strong scum feelings from them either.

Then again 164 is... not pleasant to read

First of all, after writing everything about Dragons, you can't resist immediately undercutting yourself to take a jab at a recent Wayword Sons post. Hmm, I wonder if Wayword Sons is Town? That would explain a lot..

Second of all: now taking a closer look, I realize you weren't detailing your FoS on Dragons in 167. Your big post + vote on Dragons is an assortment of--in my opinion--superficial one-liners which have little to do with Dragons. IIRC Bella answered your question on Rats compared to Eira (211) and you never followed up. The hedgy read on Elements at the end of 167 is the worst part! Dodgy stuff all around aside from the Dragon vote itself.

[Killing Joke]

tl;dr

Scum read Dragons/Elements/Flea/ActionDan (strongest - weakest)

Dialing down content wrt scum!Flea

Ask if you want my Town reads

__

Joker had a half-decent case against StD early on, but that's since kinda crumbled. His tone is kinda wacky and his points against Elements, Flea, and StD have all gotten out of whack, but it honestly... doesn't scumread him all that much. It feels like town misplaying rather than scum shitpushing from what it knows firsthand of his meta.

I think my

soul

ISO could have benefited a lot from judicial editing.

Someone asked why I read rr's gimmick different, but it's because there is actuall content.

@std, why?

@Bella

How do you feel about Eira's recent posts?

The lad's not even woken up yet! Do ye not have anythin' to say about the folks actually on deck?

@Rat

Can you talk about your read on Harley a little bit if you're still here? How tempted are you to see Dragon's flip instead and let our slot potentially resolve itself?

but let's say for argument's sake i did believe that to be the case.

who do you think is scared of frogster that's voting you?

Your vote, Elements' vote and Flea vote were all fear IMO. I think the fear from you and Elements is so strong even your fear votes themselves have fled from us (325, 354.) I think Rats is the only Town slot that's gotten on us IIRC.

Warning Flea The Magician and Killing Joke about posts including 294 and 301; specifics will be discussed by PM.

A general reminder to be kind to your fellow players.

When fights escalate to this level it's usually TvT IME with some exceptions. Apparently scum!Flea has executed something like this successfully once before to town!Pooky so it's within faer's scum range:

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=84991&user_select%5B%5D=34888

I feel strongly Flea is scum and I can also recognize objectively the likelihood of a TvT thunderdome so I'm going to put my read wrt Flea specifically on ice and hope that slot can be resolved mechanically.

If I could have everyone sheep me we will eliminate one scum butt

Sheep us D1 + D2 to initiate Town sweep

A tiny bit, been working; should have no more obligations tonight so I can spend quality time reading. To do this properly you have to read a lot.

I haven't gotten to brass tacks yet with kj vs. Everyone, but I just wanted to say that Mala looks to be clearly town now

I hate using associatives preflip. No one has ever amazed me and no one ever will.

I will take an honest slog through the meta. Reading those other games. Determining if existence is pointless. The usual

I'm still waiting for you to follow up on any of these promises to do something later.

As far as I'm concerned, talking about posts you will make later which never happen are +scum. Cagey comments about HPE, Killing Joke and Mala looking Town (45, 167, 277 respectively) appear borne of TMI and therefore +scum. Passive aggressive "kj sucks" implications appear like scum contempt and are therefore +scum (277, 245, 321.) If I really cared to stare deeply into your

soul

ISO, I could probably throw the whole book at you as far as "typical low energy scum poster voting scum buddy while shading active Town slots" go.

In fact, let me test my theory. I will open your ISO as long as I can and see if I can spot an example of "typical low energy scum poster voting scum buddy while shading active Town slots."

Ahh yes, ~5 seconds in and immediately something jumps out at me:

Read up.

VOTE: StD

First, this isn't a reaction test if he's willing to use associatives to divine a read on Elements 137. So let's make this simple: It's a bad vote against someone likely town. If there was "something to see" show us.

Town reads on RR who has essentially spent his time chastising someone in role play mode for voting a no Elim do not make sense to me.

Bella, what makes RR's posting a different caliber to eria's?

Flea's 111 sucked.

I think wayward has done alright extricating himself. I'll choose to believe his posts at face value.

Elements' posting leaves a lot to be desired but I'm not getting particularly strong scum feelings from them either.

Then again 164 is... not pleasant to read

First of all, after writing everything about Dragons, you can't resist immediately undercutting yourself to take a jab at a recent Wayword Sons post. Hmm, I wonder if Wayword Sons is Town? That would explain a lot..

Second of all: now taking a closer look, I realize you weren't detailing your FoS on Dragons in 167. Your big post + vote on Dragons is an assortment of--in my opinion--superficial one-liners which have little to do with Dragons. IIRC Bella answered your question on Rats compared to Eira (211) and you never followed up. The hedgy read on Elements at the end of 167 is the worst part! Dodgy stuff all around aside from the Dragon vote itself.

@Joker, I very much regret posting that ISO. I think Flea was extremely upset I did that. I don’t think fae did that to me intentionally. And you probably didn’t realize that I already posted it but please don’t do it anymore. <3

~Harley

Warning Flea The Magician and Killing Joke about posts including 294 and 301; specifics will be discussed by PM.

A general reminder to be kind to your fellow players.

The fact that me and fae have hurt each ither this much is something I want no part of. I was extremely triggered by faer - irrespective of intent- seriously arguing that a game where I was in objectively terrible shape emotionally, was somehow chill and calm where as here, I’m practically bouncing off the rails or something when I’m obviously not but I very much regret posting that ISO because whatever Flea is here, I very obviously hurt faer by doing that and that’s pretty much the very last thing I’d ever want to do. :/

[Killing Joke]

Spoiler:

Why is killing Joke scum for scumhunting?

Even if they're wrong, I've been seeing some weird takes on them. A few people basically voting for them either cos they're... solving? or cos I guess their tone doesn't gel well.

Regardless of KJ's true loyalties, what I'm seeing is them saying they found scum on the one side, seemingly believing and sticking with their point with definite progression.

From the other side I mostly see: 'So wrong' 'How can you' 'And wow why u sus so many ppl'.

Now.... My mind's nowhere set. But it's weird that so few people are willing to actively discuss the possibility of Dragons/Elements/Flea with KJ, and how, in a sense, Dragons, Elements, and Flea are ranged against KJ, and don't really seem to be mistrusting of each other? Or focused on a threat? I can expand on my feelings but I won't, for now.

As I said, KJ can be wrong. It's just weird, them being scum for it. I know there's way more that's been said but this is the main vibe I've got.

At the time, Nancy was a priority sort for me as ive said previously shes a player i both respect and fear. She's damned good at this usually without resorting to an endless tirade of links. The others positioning was irrelevant, its something for me to try and look back on as I was focused on KJ at the time.

I don't think they're scum hunting, frog hit TSTBS which as far as Im concerned is still scummy, honestly. The fact youre echoing what KJ has declared as a team is amusing to me, and if love for you to expand on those feelings

Huh view last unread post didn't take me to the actual last unread post, anyway, awake, fed, watered, medicated once again, not in the golden zone as my brain is doing its thing (Apparently S came out during a game last night and made it spicy) but lets go. Anything mentioned KJ is being overlooked at this point as I'm done with that slot for the sake of my sanity.

VOTE: Bella

I’m ok with this vote for now.
I don’t really feel like Bella is sorting. I also don’t really find a lot of her posts memorable. I also dislike some of the posts she made.

See, I'd like to know more bout this.

Why should posts be memorable this early?

Out of Enchant, BlueBloodedToffee and others, why specifically is Bellaphant the one chosen for not sorting?

Basically, can you at least share which posts you dislike and why?

Finally someone who realises the current game scope... Keen to see where this goes.

Flea the Magician and Elements using the same line of argument against Killing Joke does concern me for the nonce.

Ugh.

Killing Joke calls Dragons/Flea/Elements, Flea and Elements say: Why are you scumreading so many people, wayward and all the others?

So much for ignoring this stuff... *sigh*

My approach was different to Elements I feel, Where Elements was looking back and giving evidence that Joker was being drastically inconsistent, Joker absolutely and imo deliberately misconstrued what Elements intention was and to me looked to be attempting to deny that then deliberately misinterpreted comment which was then the basis of my issue with Joker. Given the various comments on me as well when I was trying to be good natured about a potential off handed comment that led to sorting potential I started getting suspicious and decided to go for it, its a slot I wanted sorted.

I aleays say, if you can say how different you are as mafia and town, then you can manipulate it.

ohai Enchant, you still lurk meta then and yeah absolutely this. Meta is generally bad anyway, self-meta imo is even worse.

Mostly I want to know why, it seems to me, fae don't think Elements and Save the Dragons are mutineers? Because Killing Joke is pushing them? That's the impression I get. I'm not sure what makes Killing Joke more scum than Elements or Save the Dragons, I'm not sure what they are, but fae not considering that Killing Joke can be two thirds right, just because killing joke has included fae as a potential, I'm trying to understand.

I currently have little impression on either. Elements a little more than StD because I know StD can be a hard read, I dont know Elements but their points were valid so far as I'm bothered. Again, I hate D1, there's too much and too many to track with nothing absolute to work with.

[/spoiier]

I think Joker’s maybe wrong on Flea who’s extremely obviously very wrong on us. I’m not sure I necessarily agree with any of it but I could see this as a possible townie thought process. I do expect Flea to be a lot better at reading me but I can possibly see it that if Flea was reading Frogs’ wrong, fae may wrongly read my play here as nia instead of obtown, which is clearly is.

It’s extremely disappointing and frustrating that fae’s doing this but I’m starting to think that could be possible. Also last time fae was scum, fae hardpocketed me. I just don’t think Flea would initiate an almost war against me as scum here. Scum!Flea would I think be far more likely to either pocket me here or say my posting’s nia and hit Frogs’ hard but not me. I actually believe faer wouldn’t do to me what fae did to Pooky now but I was so extremely upset at fae for fae’s comments wrt my emotions in that game - a topic pretty much guaranteed to maje me want to lose it on people in general - I think it adversely impacted my thinking and I just became completely paranoid on Flea and I way over reacted to it.

Anyway, I just don’t see why scum!Flea risks egregiously hurting me that much just to make a terrible push on me specifically.

@RR, why are you trying to shut down people? We ought to be looking at every slot, so I don’t see your issue with what Mala did?

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

Happy scumday to Harley.

<3

Thanks for noticing, I usually forget.

So far liking Mala, Eira, HPE, WS, Flea?

I just think faer’s reaction to my posting that link was very believable to me.

I still find STD kind of sketchy. I almost feel like he’s trying way too hard here to look town? Idk could of course be entirely wrong on that though. \_0_/

VOTE: Bella

I’m ok with this vote for now.
I don’t really feel like Bella is sorting. I also don’t really find a lot of her posts memorable. I also dislike some of the posts she made. I agree with STD that the post regarding how scared this lim will go through, just felt awk imo.

I also have a soft-scum read on deck, but that one I’m keeping closer to my chest until I can actually push that case.

I also agree with Mala that Bella needs more sorting, so Bella’s on my radar and there’s also a bunch of slots who have yet to do anything at all.

I’m also a bit suss on RR, not a popular opinion but they keep trying to shut down any discussion about anything other than their bad read on us.

RR doesn’t want to look at Frogs’ reads then they shut down Mala’s and I think it makes sense to be wondering about Bella. Also I actually believe Flea’s sr on us is more believable to me than RR’s. I’m not really saying too much about RR because Joker keeps insisting to me they’re town despite them voting obvtown and I think they should know more than anyone else here that this is Frogs’ town meta, so I find their suspicions on me specifically insincere.

I think Joker might also be wrong on Elements because she didn’t just autojump on HPE after STD voted HPE like I thought she would. That however is a very weak read. I don’t think like Frogs they make sense as svs though, more likely they’re unaligned I think?

Gth: STD/RR/Bella?

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

If I'm missing anyone still, please @ me again.

@Joker,

Gotcha. I just finished typing all this on mobile and am crashing like right now. I'll follow up with you when I wake up and won't reference that again until we've talked in the Clown's Cabin.

@Killing Joke: Your use of #133 has been prominent in the onset of Fenrir-questioning. Why such certainty? Why can't I be a mutineer, having set up Fenrir in that scenario? I'm getting trust, or the verbal facsimile at least, from two sources. Yours is the third most I'd say, not really having questioned my slot and taking the exchange of and prior to #133 at face value. Therefore I get the feeling, as I have to a lesser extent with Titus, that you believe me crew. I might be working under a misapprehension, but generally anyone feeling certain on me early needs to be examined. This is one of the reasons I won't fully trust you, for the nonce.

Hmm. I guess I see two questions in here, one about my read on you and one about why I used #133 so much.

IIRC the number one factor that caused me to townread you early was your interaction with Rats. I thought it looked TvT in general ways I've seen before like: the 1v1 starts pretty much right after the game opens, both sides show zeal combined with lack of fear posting in the thread and the 1v1 seems motivated by paranoia and desire to get reads.

In a more specific way, due to the mutual roleplaying the 1v1 reminded me of TvT right away because of this trope: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... ateDestiny

A secondary factor of why I TR you early on was because I've had lightness and playfulness on my mind as being AI factors. That made me biased to view a few slots early on as Town, including Dragons.

My certainty isn't absolute: the main thing which causes me to think you could be scum is that your level of aggression, demeanor and words-to-posts ratio are eerily similar to the scum game we played together rather than the Town games. What I've been thinking is that those changes are due more to the role playing and number of players rather than alignment. My level of concern is enough that I asked Bellaphant in 367 for an opinion on your recent posts, and not enough that I ever seriously considered flipping my read on you.

As for why I used #133 so much in my posts against Dragons: I don't think it had anything to do with a sense of trust towards you, I think I just preferred the words you used there overall and I liked referencing #133 because it was easy to do. The only thing I can remember calculating is that #133 might be a better hook point for a link if someone clicked on it out-of-context.

One thing I did consider briefly was that maybe #133 was written better because of TMI and you were the buddy Dragons wanted to push him. The main thing which made me believe that wasn't the case was that I observed Dragons was very focused on replying to Elements which is how I saw Dragons interact with his buddy in Masque.

I didn't consider at all that it was SvT with you framing Dragons and probably never will. I just don't feel any intuition to interpret it that way.

@ Flea @ JK I think you're both loyal Crew. @ Both Do you think I'm headed in the right direction with my Crew posting?

Night shift. I'll be walking the deck.

I agree with every single one of your reads I think.

Because you mentioned sorting Passenger earlier, I thought my interaction with Passenger was very, very slightly +Town. I think 195 is lacking condescension and is a little bit more likely to come from Town. I think scum usually push forward in 329 and are more interested in winning the argument.

The overall interaction reminds of one I've had with low-posting Town in large games before. I think Town slots who fall behind in Larges will sometimes push me as a way to get bearing on the game and that's the feeling I was getting from Passenger AFTER--not before--195.

I think overall the significance of it is very weak because it's easy to fake and Passenger had plenty of time to consider what to say. That's just where I'm at right now.

Do you have any new opinions on Passenger?

By the way, @Passenger, once you get the opportunity to post more I think you should push other players.

[Killing Joke]

I agree with every single one of your reads I think.

Eh quick addendum, @Wayward: I'm not sold on Flea TR but I'll consider it.

[Killing Joke]

@RR with all due respect, if anyone’s doing any twisting of posts it’s you. You accused us of having an anyone but us attitude. Where? Where are you even getting that from? I want links or quotes.

I'm reading more than I'm posting.

Really liking eira for town for a few reasons, including but not solely the push back on mala for the vote on me: scum love to vote me, especially day one and malas RVs is super weird, as the last two times we've played together they've been lurk!scum and my RVs has been nothing exceptional.

@mala, reciepts?

Hpe is town too, I scum read that one for being informed and strange in our last game and vigged them n1. It was a mason. Not having history repeat there.

Mala's next vote is even weirder. Explain?
@kj, eiras town, although I am wary of them. Last game I scum read them, they used a letter sending mech at night to melt my heart...and were scum. Also, like....take this however, but my engagement and sorting is going to be minimal while your and fleas.(and minirly STDs) slot are throwing rocks at each other. It's like a leech for my motivation and enjoyment.

Okay like this from Bella. @Bella, believe me I am very unhappy about all of that too. Flea is a very important friend to me and I absolutely hate it that things went down the way that they did between us. Schadd’s game was very traumatic for me. So traumatic in fact, that I had to replace out of that game for the sake of my mental health and still suffered through a CPTSD episode post game.

BBT dislikes our posts, he disliked my posts in Lost and DoP as well, all is right with the world.

I think this is town!Mala here. She tends to be very wooden as scum.

I re-ISO’d Elements and I think that if she doesn’t have a lot of experience playing with Joker, her take is understandable but I think anyone who’s played at least two games with town!Frogs should immediately be able to recognize his play here as pretty much identical.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

Spoiler:

OK quick rewind.

@Flea you really did hurt me but I apologize for suggesting it was intentional but I honestly don’t understand why you would think that so extremely misrepping my emotional reactions from Schadd’s game as “calm” when they were anything but to use that to push me for my - according to you - “flailing panicked” reactions in THIS wasn’t cool by me and if you expressed even an iota of remorse about that really gutted me, I’d be able to get past it already.

I hate that I've upset and triggered you, I have a lot of love and respect for you and I am incredibly sorry for the misrep. It was not intentional, it's one of the reason I don't do meta dives, I cannot recall the emotions or invest enough in the read through to get the emotions back. I would want to talk more about this post game in private if you're ok with that? We both have learning moments here I feel.

I am standing by that I refuse to interact with your slot in this game for my own sake at this time, though.

(honestly I'm probably going back on hiatus after this, I seem to be pissing people off left right and center. Anyway.)

Of course we can @Flea. <3. It’s just that game really messed with my head and being pushed on anything based off of my emotional reactions is bound to trigger me in general but you handled it really well, so I’m hoping we can both drop it and hopefully even work together here.

I am town and I’m now thinking you are too. I think I was initially swayed by Joker’s read on you and then my emotions hijacked my brain. My brain works like that, I get narrowly focused on one particular thing and then can’t see the forrest for the trees. Like I know that I wasn’t calm or chill in that game but I really didn’t take into account my experience with you. That actually isn’t specific to mafia, it’s also a real life thing as well.

Spoiler:

so i'm just not going to get an answer to my question i guess

What question?

How are you reading the voters currently on my my wagon and why?

i don't really have a strong read but the fact that they see what i see makes me a little less suspicious of them. i think scum is on my my wagon tbh

Who do you think is scum on your wagon? I still don’t understand the HPE sr.

Spoiler:

I'm reading more than I'm posting.

Really liking eira for town for a few reasons, including but not solely the push back on mala for the vote on me: scum love to vote me, especially day one and malas RVs is super weird, as the last two times we've played together they've been lurk!scum and my RVs has been nothing exceptional.

@mala, reciepts?

Hpe is town too, I scum read that one for being informed and strange in our last game and vigged them n1. It was a mason. Not having history repeat there.

Mala's next vote is even weirder. Explain?
@kj, eiras town, although I am wary of them. Last game I scum read them, they used a letter sending mech at night to melt my heart...and were scum. Also, like....take this however, but my engagement and sorting is going to be minimal while your and fleas.(and minirly STDs) slot are throwing rocks at each other. It's like a leech for my motivation and enjoyment.

My reason for voting you is because I feel like you are more in the background rather than being more outgoing. In the last game we played you were more transparent in your thoughts and reasoning and it feels like it is missing in this game. In all hindsight it could be just the mechanics of this game is different, but right now it's something to go on and i'm going to go after it until I find something more compelling.

As for my vote on Andre: I have played multiple games with him and he has a pattern of his scum vs town meta. Right now he's hitting every single tell of playing in his total scum range. I know you are prob thinking "he's only prod dodge or being prodded" and that right there IS his tell. I also know thats like pot calling the kettle black. I get working, but town!andre will normally try to produce something even if he's busy.

Hmm . . . you seemed very convinced. I will ask Joker about that, especially if he doesn’t pick it up soon.

Spoiler:

so i'm just not going to get an answer to my question i guess

Is this at me?

@mala, my lack of motivation is 100% drama in thread and not in my role pm related.

@kj, elements was in that game I keep mentioning with eira, bbt, frog, etc. Frog was outgoing and interested but also very manipulative: I think that's just them, not necessarily a town or scum tell (I mean this like no tea no shade).

Yeah understood, that his playstyle especially when town and he gets wrongly sr a lot for that.

What question @STD? I’m currently the most suss on you and RR and I don’t know how you don’t already know this and just keep repeating a pointless already answered question ad nauseum.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

@Players just getting into the game

Stop tinfoiling Dragons to be Town it's not TvT, there's no reason to Townread that slot. This is a really easy slot to read,it takes some mental gymnastics to believe Dragons here, it's really simple AtE and scum!Dragons says the same things every game. Look:

k so if we're at maybe, like what about it is coasting in a scum way and what about it is coasting in a potential playstyle way

Compare to scum!Dragons from Masque:

I feel a lot of what's being brought up against me so far is entirely in my playstyle and if you knew who I was, people might realize I'm slow in my process, and people would definitely feel dumb about associating a joke with my alignment.

[Killing Joke]

Hey Titus,

What's up?

Sorry I got prodded. Real life. Meant to comment. Gut VCA says KJ and StD is T v T.

Gut says this is BS, since when do you defend players based on VCA when 0 slots have flipped? What kind of game are you playing here Titus?

[Killing Joke]

And in case your wondering: no, Dragons doesn't coast as Town, it's just AtE they're spewing. Dragons is actually a really good Town player.

[Killing Joke]

Anyone who hears a voice in their head like

"Aww yeah Dragons is just misunderstood and totally telling the truth here"

Can improve their scumhunting overnight by simply locating the source of that voice in their psyche and severing it from their soul.

That isn't the voice of reason or compassion speaking to you, that's the voice of big goofy blunders which causes you to get high before your dance performance and then bomb your solo variation and end up losing your contract for next season.

[Killing Joke]

I scumread KJ, and STD

[Killing Joke]

You think KJ are town, StD?

Thought this one was for StD.

Early 1 v 1s tend to be T v T.

If you're Town and intending to play like this then it's going to make the game longer and more difficult than it needs to be. The TvT tell you are referring to exists and Eira and Rats early fight from this game is a great example of what that looks like (34.)

Stop defending Dragons. They are not Town. They will not flip Town. We are not TvT.

Dragon's scum flip is going to help you immensely with VCA and I believe his partners will be implicated by his flip. We have to keep the wagon growing because--if my reads are accurate--Town has like no coordination otherwise.

[Killing Joke]

Who i should sheep?

If you want to be helpful while not doing any effort then just park your vote on Dragons and post random shit. It's an easy D1 scum flip.

[Killing Joke]

Might just vote std just to move this game on.

This is legit just focusing all time and energy

Like come on

It’s getting in the way of hunting imo

Also my cat just bit me while I was sleeping so here I am awake when I need to be up in 4 hours

You don't really think Dragons is scum though? We could be persuaded to switch to andres I think. 381 was pretty bad IMO.

[Killing Joke]

Might just vote std just to move this game on.

This is legit just focusing all time and energy

Like come on

It’s getting in the way of hunting imo

Also my cat just bit me while I was sleeping so here I am awake when I need to be up in 4 hours

I think I'm right about Dragons because I remember Dragons feeling like they were more helpful than this as Town. I kind of read them like Gamma where if they feel helpful then I think they're Town and if they feel disruptive then I think they're scum. How strong would you say you Town Dragons right now? I'm not inflexible.

[Killing Joke]

Passenger's posts have made no impact on me at all, which is often a scum tell

I'm not sure how Passenger is going to explain scum reading Dragons and I. They aren't a beginner and that take seems really unintuitive to me.

Eh, if we are wagoning lurkers I'd rather do enchant.

Interesting. Did anything in particular ping you?

[Killing Joke]

@Enchant

Do you mind doing an ISO dive on someone?

• The Town are called Crew, VTs are called Loyal Sailors, Town PRs are called Officers - whose flavours are derived from traditional roles on ships, and/or piracy in popular culture. At least half of the Crew are Loyal Sailors.

what officer could be miller

Oh cool selfmeta.

I aleays say, if you can say how different you are as mafia and town, then you can manipulate it.

I like Passenger, congrats you are now doublevoter.


... Whew, mafia is hard.

VOTE: HighPrincessErinys

The first...three posts are townie and the last two are gross. I particularly don't understand the hpe wagon at all and it seemed like a distraction to progress. Also, singling out passenger is just strange to me

That's good, I think I was biased to see Enchant as a town lean because I liked the first few posts so the last two didn't register. I think scum!Enchant has been getting good at making posts which seem townie like those first three so it was a mistake for me to overlook the last two like that.

How many different scum metas would you say you have, Bella?

[Killing Joke]

451, 367, 458

tl;dr

Dragons/Elements/Passenger scum, Eiralox/HPE/Bella town

I am sorry for invoking thread death with Flea.

@BBT, @Titus, @Enchant, @Dragons and @Passenger have content to respond to below. My suspicion of

Enchant

is growing.

PSA

As far as I can understand the concepts, the below post is both toxicity-free and a good overall post.

We've decided that our war with Flea was more likely to be a thunderdome and I'd like to apologize for the part I played in invoking thread death. As far as changes I can make I think I can promise to avoid sustained, back-to-back postings tunnel visioned on conflict with another player for the rest of the game.

I'm re-asserting that the associative tell I pointed out (131 and 137 being scum theater) between Dragons and Elements is more likely to be correct than wrong. I've realized my post 149 details an analogy which is abstract. I've stepped back the best I can to determine whether it's unlikely to be understood because there is no logic or because the logic is too difficult to see. I've decided that the logic is simply difficult to see and it's beyond my abilities as a player to communicate it in a way that everyone can understand.

I would accept an all-or-nothing, no-takeback deal that the scum team contains

at least

and

all of

Dragons/Elements/Passenger. I have

comparatively

nothing concrete to say on anyone elses alignment including Flea, except I'm pretty confident that Eiralox, HPE and Bella are Town and Enchant is in the dog house.

titus's lack of presence bothers me a little but not enough to really worry about her

i have no read on bbt at this time

mala seems town i feel like staying out of the butting heads and going hard on someone else seems like it's avoiding the easy scum play of taking a side. it feels more like town apathy/annoyance of the battle going back and forth.

i'm suspicious of dan and am a little shocked at all the town reads on him. his vote on me seems a little lazy. i guess he explains it later, and i don't mind his recent big post so much except for the bit about analysis which i think he's wrong and i'm right and i don't know if that's because he's scum trying to attribute something when it's not there to make me look bad or if he just believes what he says. i dunno. i don't have a solid scumlean on him but i'm just wary.

This pings me for the "talk to me, not about me" scum tell I 100% learned from Bella because she said it in back-to-back games D1 to slots who got townread as scum and proceeded to endgame.

I'm looking at Dragon's iso and I'm not seeing any effort to engage or sort slots like ActionDan, Titus. I find it interesting that BBT--who has become Dragon's flying monkey (which I mean it no shade, no tea)--Dragons "has no read on" despite also being implicated by Bella in 458 as an underperformer.

It feels like Dragons saw the posts I linked at the top here (451, 367 and 458) and thought slots like ActionDan and Titus would be well-recieved as targets for him to push. I see no signs or indicators or feel any intuition that these are reads or players that Dragons has been considering or thinking about.

__

@BBBBBBT

Case on Dragon seems weak.

I'm repeating this just for you, BBT.

[519] pings me for the "talk to me, not about me" scum tell I 100% learned from Bella because she said it in back-to-back games D1 to slots who got townread as scum and proceeded to endgame.

Townreading posts like 519 is a

mistake

I learned the hard way by

losing lots of games.

I am genuinely trying to help you by pointing out this pattern to you. I'm not really a "bruh" person but I think it's fair to say that if I were I would consider you a "bruh" because you were a strategic, selfless team player who set Eiralox and I up for victory in a really difficult scum game which enabled me to become more confident as a player. I think 458 implies Bella enjoys playing with you and/or sees potential in you as a player and I would rather roll with that mindset. IDK what else to say except that I am telling the truth and trying to work with you.

You remember how Eiralox' slot coasted to victory?

Paranoid of Eira for all of time now haha

I wouldn't put too much blame on yourself. For various reasons, Eira seemed pretty widely town read in the game so it's not on you by any means

If y'all had of listened to me we could have elimmed Eira!

Damnnnnn, Frog and Eira coasted!

Good work and GGs everyone!

Guess who noticed something D1 which no one paid attention to?

@eir, come talk to me, not about me?


I think fire could be town and frog could be scum. I low key think aisa might be town but it's a meta read and not a good one. Grib can be town. In annoyed no one engaged me on hpe. I find the back and forth between grid/tsq/fire/frog/a little bbt soeta unreadable' because it looks like a pissing contest and I never get anything out of them.

So, there's some stuff to get your teeth into

P-edit enchant could well be scum. I don't want nm ans enchant to be scum but I've played with both of them recently and won in a scum team with nm, they could both be doing more

Now I've tried to be careful to avoid making an actual meta argument here. I don't want to hear that you reject all this because you "don't care about meta." I'm not making a damn meta argument, I'm pointing out a general scum tell which IME is consistently missed by like every Town. Dragons has just demonstrated it in 519 and is demonstrating it again now in 542. Dragons does not have depth to his reads because he isn't Town and consequently his takes haven't developed in spite of all his "activity."

FMPOV I tried my best here and there is nothing else I can do wrt your reads that can be productive unless you're willing to consider what I have to say.

__

@Passenger

i don't know that you're scum i'm just voting you right now because i think it's the most likely option but if you want to prove me wrong you can try

Unlike the above post from STD which I fail to see any townie thought process whatsoever. lol

Did you (idk if it was Nancy or Frogster though) not do this exact same thing with Wayward?

Passenger, I know you claimed to have read up to some page or whatever in your ISO, but I think that you're lying and you haven't read a single page of this game or even more than two consecutive back-to-back posts.

Feel free to try and prove me wrong in 36 hours when you glance at the thread again. Apparently you've been busy "playing lots of livechat mafia" so you can show us what other scum tricks you've learned there (cough cough 183.)

__

@Titus

@Titus

@Titus

INCOMING INCOMING INCOMING! RULE OF THREE ALERT!

Std: hey guys I'm worried about kj I'm gonna put a vote there see what happens
Kj: STD IS SCUM AND SO IS EVERYONE WHO DEFENDS HIM
HERE IS SOME META THAT IS TANGENTIALLY RELATED BUT WE'RE PRENTENDING IT'S A SCUMCLAIM.
town: *applause* let's wagon std

Do you have counterexamples of you doing the same thing as town?

i don't know that you're scum i'm just voting you right now because i think it's the most likely option but if you want to prove me wrong you can try

Unlike the above post from STD which I fail to see any townie thought process whatsoever. lol

Did you (idk if it was Nancy or Frogster though) not do this exact same thing with Wayward?

VOTE: HPE
not rvs, going off vibes

Just a reminder, HPE asked you about this.

Why did you feel the need to ask this question? I hadn’t made any posts since then. Honestly, all your content in this page feels like filler.

RULE OF 3 ALERT

Passenger

only soft pushes AND only soft pushes:

KJ WAYWARD

DRAGONS

__

@Dragons

I'm not sure how Passenger is going to explain scum reading Dragons and I. They aren't a beginner and that take seems really unintuitive to me.

perhaps the only thing we see eye to eye on

Now you want to try being chummy with me to get me off your tail, scum butt? Or are you desperate to appear not-associated with Passenger and it had nothing to do with my slot?

This is the officially named "reverse 'NSG TELL ''" fyi. Scum!indicative forcing a dumb jokey into a post in a context which is unnatural for a townie to be jokey. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=90273

__

@Dragons@Passenger

Std: hey guys I'm worried about kj I'm gonna put a vote there see what happens
Kj: STD IS SCUM AND SO IS EVERYONE WHO DEFENDS HIM
HERE IS SOME META THAT IS TANGENTIALLY RELATED BUT WE'RE PRENTENDING IT'S A SCUMCLAIM.
town: *applause* let's wagon std

Do you have counterexamples of you doing the same thing as town?

i dun remember everything i've ever said

Executive Director: ARRGH! THESPIANS...WHERE'S THE PASSION? WHERE IS THE EXCITEMENT? WHAT ARE YOUR CHARACTERS TRYING TO ACHIEVE!?! SHOULD I CALL THE UNDERSTUDIES IN AND GIVE THEM A DRESS REHEARSAL?

__

@Enchant

• The Town are called Crew, VTs are called Loyal Sailors, Town PRs are called Officers - whose flavours are derived from traditional roles on ships, and/or piracy in popular culture. At least half of the Crew are Loyal Sailors.

what officer could be miller

Oh cool selfmeta.

I aleays say, if you can say how different you are as mafia and town, then you can manipulate it.

I like Passenger, congrats you are now doublevoter.


... Whew, mafia is hard.

VOTE: HighPrincessErinys

The first...three posts are townie and the last two are gross. I particularly don't understand the hpe wagon at all and it seemed like a distraction to progress. Also, singling out passenger is just strange to me

Jealous?

Tell me why you like passenger and I might be!

I picked them almost randomly for no reason to see how it ends.

You can't use swear words in pirate themed game

That's... F... Friking... Sad

lockscum

Enchant, you blew off my attempts to engage with you in 452 and 462 which I believe is scum!indicative for you. I also believe Town!Enchant is likely to engage with 84, and at the very least, it's a terrible sign that I've put more effort into mech than you have.

I have three things now which are town!indicative for you which you can attempt to follow up on if my suspicions about you are wrong:

Help with Dragon wagon and post more quantity (452)
ISO dive someone (462)
Expand on or suggest an alternative to my theory 12:4 town:scum ratio (84)

I'll interpret continued silence from you as

fear

scum!indicative.

__

[Killing Joke]

Eiralox, thoughts on Rats?

[Killing Joke]

pedit @Bella

Do you think it's fair to say that you may be distrustful since you townread me (at some points) in the last couple games and I was scum/SK? Is there anything specific that makes you think I'm up to something?

Joker, while ye be on deck...

Could I trouble ye for a quick list o' your reads? I'd ask the same of Harley when she's 'round too.

tl;dr

Dragons/Elements/Passenger scum, Eiralox/HPE/Bella town

I'll add Malakittens to my townreads too, I should have done that in 547 imo.

Since Wayword is around I'll say I'm not confident enough to Townread them though I'm definitely leaning Town on them. What makes me partial to that slot is the really strong emphasis on finding reads as opposed to finding reasons to have reads, if that makes sense. Of course it also helps that our reads are identical AFAIK.

@Wayword Son

that reminds me actually, have you ever played mafia on another site under the username MonsieurArtagnan?

pedit @Wayword Sons

Which posts do you like from Elements? Does it affect your opinion at all if I inform you that Elements has a fairly vast scum range?

On my soul quest to identify the (IMO) fourth and final scum slot I'm a little bit less suspicious of Enchant than I was in 547 (though I'm biased because I like playing with Enchant) and I'm a little bit more suspicious of you, Rat. I view the Dragons versus Passenger as a D1 SvS wagon cross and I view your vote on Gimli as an attempt to build a viable (hah) counterwagon on Town. I think the reason you gave about Gimli wanting to rush the day sounds like scum reasoning: I don't see why Gimli's impatience is AI for scum as opposed to AI for...Town being impatient. I feel like your playing up hydra dissonance in 657 could be an attempt to shade us for example, you may be a Rat by name but

"...'n' softer squabblin' on others..."

indicates you

could

be a Weasel by trade: receipts please.

In addition to the above, I have three additional minor reasons to be growing suspicious of you. There is talk in the Clown Cabin that your morale is decreasing over time because your team is losing...while at first you were a high energy slot, now you're rarely present. I think Harley could be right at least that you're more wary of certain things as scum: in Elected Decisions you wrote very good scum posts but you fell into the cautious vs reckless motif in your opening post and that caused me to call you out page 1 (IIRC), though over time your very good emulation of townie writing won me over. I can see how your cognizance of that game can lead you to make a minor adjustment to your scum play where you are looking to engage in a 1v1 early because you've become aware that being reckless is the right way to be cautious as scum. Finally, I don't think 657 addresses this properly:

As for yeself though, the waters be considerably muddier. Ye'll forgive me not 'splainin' meself further, don't want ye shapin' yer play 'round me 'til after I've put in the legwork 'n' come to me conclusion on me own. I'll give ye me word it be done afore sunset.

I can't be sure how much--if any--resolution there is to this in 657. Please elaborate on the above at your earliest opportunity.

All of this being said, I'm not certain enough to scum read you at all, I just think it could be a fair analogy to say that both Clown Eyes of Sauron are pointed at you right now:



__

[Killing Joke]

@joker, of course. The other issue was that I don't have the confidence in myself: I scum read you very heavily in the last game but I'm not often confident to be a voice in the wilderness: Nancy will know in cosmos that I scum read her slot since day one, there was a probable guilty on her but she was consensus town read and ended til 6p!
Why did you ask about my scum meta?!

I could identify here that you weren't playing how you did in LOST... however: I thought your temperament means you could be creative enough to have alternating scum metas, and at some point I read a game from a long time ago which you were randomly in and that made me aware you've had the opportunity over time to develop separate approaches. The two of those factors together made me think it was the

possibility

in my mind you have multiple scum metas which was causing me paranoia and to ping for scum when I read your posts.

I asked you if you had multiple scum metas because I was curious about your answer and to see if you would be reactive to my bringing it up. I basically took one look at your response in 464 and decided that you really are Town here. My interpretation of 464 was based purely on intuition, I didn't even read it really thoroughly until I looked it up again just now. That's funny that you got to use
"I haven't played scum in years!" for a while and I agree that's a great scum record so you can't make those kinds of excuses anymore.

@Wayword Son that reminds me actually, have you ever played mafia on another site under the username MonsieurArtagnan?

No, wasn't me. I played on a few sites over a decade ago, but they weren't sites dedicated to Mafia. We had been playing IRL Mafia a lot, but Covid and other things made it fizzle out. That's what drew me here.

pedit @Wayword Sons Which posts do you like from Elements? Does it affect your opinion at all if I inform you that Elements has a fairly vast scum range?

I think some of her frustration sounded sincere enough it might be coming from Crew.

I'm going to enjoy coming back to this post game

I know I said this before when I've felt unjustly accused.

Overall nothing to take them of the suss list, they just get the benefit of a doubt atm.

That's cool! I'm glad you're here. You reminded me a little bit of someone I played with about ~12 years ago. And Elements' answer there I forgot about, but now that you brought it up I remember that post set me back a little too and reminded me of townies I've run up before.

[Killing Joke]

@joker, of course. The other issue was that I don't have the confidence in myself: I scum read you very heavily in the last game but I'm not often confident to be a voice in the wilderness: Nancy will know in cosmos that I scum read her slot since day one, there was a probable guilty on her but she was consensus town read and ended til 6p!
Why did you ask about my scum meta?!

I understand that but I also play scum differently because it was multiball. I hate fake solving more than anything but since I could actually real solve in that game is probably why that was the case. Like Mastina locktowned me for playing similar to my usual towngames but you would br extremely unlikely to find that in any of my singleball scumgames. I’m also in a hydra where I don’t have to be the active head any finally, unless a literal framer role exists in this setup and I have yet to even see a game with that role in it, no guilty is possible for us as we are 100% solid town here.

I think you can tell by our play and Read both me and Frogs in both Community versions: og and the redux to see how both our posting compares with this game.

Spoiler:

Your Eria comments amuse me, you say when is an opening post scummy but I offer when is an opening post worthy of a conftown read as a rebuttal. You can absolutely have alignment indicative openers and several people have been caught on them before. The no-elim is post 27ish, page two and still in RVS so if you're reading something into that other than RVS I'd love to know what you're seeing there.

What amuses me is that Elements locktowned me on my second post and here fae are talking to Erynis, who did no such thing.
I asked Elements why later, no response.

Genuinely I think people have forgotten how to read or at least see context.
That or the whole dang crew is mutinous.

This one already put Mala into conftown for the time being for the Miller claim, but it also doesn't super like their ISO or votes starting with 361.
[snip]
Eira seems fine and this one disagrees with StD's earlier assessment that his opening post is scummy (when IS an opening post actually scummy?), think maybe they could be posting more content? No-elim vote feels kinda NAI also based on the RP.
[snip]

I don't understand your response here, who its aimed at or what you're aiming for here.

[snip]
Erynis is noting something very simple here, and my first post was so basic that Erynis is right. It's interesting, what faer saying here and that fae feels the need to respond to so minor a point at all.

Erynis: How can you form an early scumread like that?

Flea: Uh early tells totally exist(Ignoring nature of my statement and utter brute simplicity of three words), and why is Eira's No Elim indicative of something? (Erynis said it's NAI! Why are fae twisting what Erynis said? NAI means 'not reading into it', yes?)

Yeah my bad on that one, I misread that bit and NAI means read into it but found it Non-Alignment Indicative. Honestly doesn't change my position as it stands on HPE.

I've felt Titus, Flea, Toffee, and Gimli and KJ to an extent, try to save Fenrir. Not saying those folk are scum but saying at this point I don't think I can change my vote anymore. If I'm wrong and misread you Fenrir, so be it.

But there's way too many indications that we struck gold.

Struck gold in that StD is mutinous?
Intriguing. This would infer a potential solve from you of being within Titus, Toffee, Gimli, KJ and myself.
Given interactions between KJ and StD, are you actually sure on that?

Personally at the moment I'm tempted to look at the people who are misinterpreting StD wilfully as I think our odds are better there.

And what if those people are ACURATELY reading STD, what then? I don’t understand why you’re so convinced he’s town here? He was extremely obvtown in Temple but I feel he’s being different here.

RR I haven't read any of

Same with Eira

So why not and shouldn’t you be doing that before you vote?

I think the reason you gave about Gimli wanting to rush the day sounds like scum reasoning: I don't see why Gimli's impatience is AI for scum as opposed to AI for...Town being impatient.

It be the way he speaks of it as a foregone conclusion. There be many loose threads left to pull at, an' he tries to paint the deal as sealed to secure 'is last few votes.

Ye can be impatient 'n' still be loyal, but the message here wasn' that he'd rather things be faster... It's that fate's already been writ, with the goal of dissuadin' lookin' elsewhere

@RR, why am I getting the sense that you might possibly be hiding under this sailor speak, so your bad takes don’t look so bad because it’s very difficult - unlike for example with Eira - to even understand what you’re actually saying half the time.

My reads: Mala, Eira, WS, Gimli, BBT, Bella, HPE, maybe AD? for town

Currently the most suss on STD/RR/. Less on Passenger/Elements

Everyone else: null

[Killing Joke]

Thank you for your responses, Rat. I have another issue with your ISO:

216 and 270

Do you remember what caused you to change your position towards Harley between these two posts? I didn't see it although granted I'm a bit biased.
__

@all (Elements "show, don't tell" scum tell)

RR I haven't read any of

Same with Eira

So why not and shouldn’t you be doing that before you vote?

Yea probably but I'm lazy

@Elements

Why the chess in 55? Is playing chess within a mafia game normal behavior from you?

Haven't done it before, but I'd say it's in character

"'Show, don't tell' is a technique authors use to add drama to a novel. Rather than telling readers what's happening, authors use this technique to show drama unfold on the page. 'Telling' is factual and avoids detail; while 'showing,' is detailed and places the human subject at the centre of the drama."

https://jerichowriters.com/show-dont-tell/
__

@Elements

Reads on Titus, Enchant, Radical Rats and ActionDan?

I'm not going to look at StD because anything I say KJ will jump on and say "oo look this is two scum"

I'm going to make sure and repost this several times this game. And yes I intend on calling out any SvS tells you make and connecting you to your scum buddies. I agree it's best you and Dragons and Passenger all be cautious. It's probably best to avoid any scum theater at all with your 4th buddy until we're dead, just to be safe.

Second question: considering you just completed a game against scum!Joker, which I quoted your reaction to in 102, why don't you explain all the similarities you're seeing in my play between that previous game and this one?

__

@Flea

Trying to look back and work out what I was thinking, what wires potentially crossed on what I was going to poke StD on and just noticing there's a lot of unanswered questions from me at passenger and I'm considering if this is evasion or laziness...

I'm glad you said this because I didn't pick up on Passenger doing this. If you take a quick look at the context and timestamp of Passenger's 548 you can see that Passenger was deliberately evading me in 547. As for whether or not Passenger is being lazy or evasive, I think Passenger is being lazy

and

evasive.

__


__

@ActionDan

Titus' votes and iso leave much to be desired

Yeah I think you may be onto something (again) wrt Titus. She's not this ornery and disengaged as Town IME. I don't agree with what she said about the rule of 3 either. I think she just said that as an excuse to avoid voting Passenger. I'm guessing her vote is on Gimli right now, the counterwagon to Dragons and Passenger?

__

@Titus

Save The Dragons (6): Killing Joke, Wayward Son, ActionDan, HighPrincessErinys, Eiralox, Gimli.
HighPrincessErinys (4): Passenger, Save The Dragons, Enchant, Titus.

look at this ugly counterwagon

Nice, Titus caught on HPE and Gimli counter wagons. How do you feel D1 is working out for you, Titus? Still "mad" about all the "readwalls" ???

__

@Gimli

Here's (a version of) why I don't believe what we both observed about Flea is AI:

tmw your tile refreshes the wrong freaking page. Eugh.

Nancy you know my play better than anyone.
You know I can read you.
I know I can't read frog.
You know I do not meta dive.
You know I will latch on to a single head and take my read from there.
You know I'm a reactive player, worse than you can be some days.
When only Joker is posting, I can't exactly focus on both. I've looked at yours, I gave explanation why I have a little pause over your alignment. I've even said i'm going to try and focus on you because I can read you and not frog, who I think I've had 1 game with.

There's silly pushes, there's shit pushes, then theres manual extraction and yeeting it at the turbo propeller.

You are asking me to do things you know I

do not do

and using that I do not do them as a defence.

Your townmeta to me is you have fun, even when someone throws a bit of sus you have fun. Here you're throwing meta at me, hyperfixed on how I'm reading you and being crushed already with almost no pressure.

Most importantly you know I've caught you like this before, and you've seen me catch hydras like this before. I've always done it like this, trying to paint me red for it isn't a good look for you.

Flea is a reactive player I believe this part is sincere and that can explain faer push against our slot as fae was reacting to my early aggression against faer slot. I think while people are being reactive they can do things which look like scum tells.

(I'll go out of character a bit here because trying to wrap it in pirate speak isn't working I think.

But what I'm asking is what about Nancy's play here makes you think she's RPing? I'll acknowledge you know her better than I do, but to me this looks like pretty normal Nancy play.)

There's a few Harleyisms interspersed in her posts (Since when does she call anyone Bucko?) and word choice is different to usual around them. It's throwing me off how I usually read her. The aggression is different because of it and ngl she's getting Harley's mania about right when she does it

I have figured out the answer to this question when you're ready to hear it from me.

Also, your pirate speak is easy to understand all things considered, miscommunication isn't the problem

[Joker]

Is it because you think I'm scum? Still waiting on your answers btw.

It is possible that Flea noticed differences in Harley's behavior and word choice which were subtle. I draw another connection to this a couple quotes down

@flea, I don't think we've played together, although I've read a bit about you and larping elsewhere! I tend to do well one on one so have a drink and chuck question or two at me?

yeah I'm a keen LARPer ^_^
Turns out its not a dehydration headache which means it's probably an OSDD headache so this is going to be foggy af for a day or two.

Has anyone in particular underperformed who you were expecting more from today?

Flea likes to act and may be playing a character here for scum hunting and/or entertainment and that can look like scum behavior sometimes.

Hm.
Need to check VC, will do that on my computer when im home.
For now my vote is spiritually on Passenger while I read back whats happened tonight properly and check my wires are not once again crossed.

HPE goes on the watch list - another wilful misconstructor.

Everyone is assuming malicious intent......

As far as assumptions go, malicious intent isn't always the driver behind wilful misinterpretation of something. I can think of many reasons for both alignments to do it, the thing that tells for me is

how

its construed, how much it happens and responses to it.

At the moment I'll be entirely honest you're fulfilling "assume" quite well at the moment.

Flea may not have been upfront about some things, for example it's possible fae noticed differenced in Harley's behavior and fae exaggerated them to see how Harley would react for scum hunting purposes. This would be congruent with the mindset Flea is describing in the post above.

All this being said, I still believe that Elements and Dragons 100% worked together like an actual pack of wolves and those slots can not be allowed to reach endgame. I just think it's more likely wrt Flea that fae were a Town who got caught in the cross fires.

[Killing Joke]

haha i checked and i am actually not last player by post count

i am proud

Yes, the Clown Eye of Sauron has averted it's gaze from you.

What is your point here and why is this a scum tell?

Your posts are superficial and attempting to play into how you think others view you as Town. Instead of interacting with others and trying to solve the game which would reveal your characteristics over time, you tell others directly what you think the characteristics of town!you are like in an effort to control how you believe you should be perceived.

283 I never told HPE that I'm feeling wacky, how did they pick that up? ... because there is some depth and volume behind what I put out, HPE made that inference on their own. It's easy for me to show rather than tell because I am Town and difficult for you because you are scum. The players who have defended you say things like "I've seen town say that before" and "I like Elements' posts on page 10", not "wow I actually believe Elements cares about what they're saying throughout this game." That's because the focus of your posts has been on emulating town tells and pushing an agenda through.

Now, stop evading the 2 difficult--unless you're Town--questions I asked you in 712.

[Killing Joke]

(Sorry for doublepost @ Harley, I couldn't resist)

How can you possibly think you have 3 scum reads correct

Hey Dragons, why did you ask me this question?

@std, scale of 1-10 how actually worried are you about being the elim here?

Maybe 2

Can we get an update on this by the way?

[Killing Joke]

(Sorry for doublepost @ Harley, I couldn't resist)

How can you possibly think you have 3 scum reads correct

Hey Dragons, why did you ask me this question?

@std, scale of 1-10 how actually worried are you about being the elim here?

Maybe 2

Can we get an update on this by the way?

Game barely started and you wanted to flip 3 people as scum? Not likely but you and Eiralox seem to have no problem with that. Hmm

What do you care about the number

Let me elaborate on the first question and rephrase it to be better:

When you asked me how I could possibly think I had three scum reads correct, I was explicitly scum reading Elements/Dragons/Flea. I made it very clear that I was scum reading those three. Since then, I have explicitly made it clear that I have changed my mind and scumread Dragons/Elements/Passenger, and that I'm less likely to change my mind than I was before.

Why are you now not standing by on how ridiculous it is that I think I could possibly have 3 scum reads correct?

Stop evading my second question with a question of your own.

Spoiler:

[[Big Joker Card]]

[Killing Joke]

UNVOTE: Dragons

l-3

I'm not yet finished yet.

[Killing Joke]

Yeah it's weirdly quiet. I don't think this should be the elim today.

This is anti town though and a documented trick to make towns lose.

How to Throw Mafia Games

by Alison
Excerpt from Flashwagons

Many towns will simply heed a call of “flash wagon!” and frantically switch targets like a raid boss having their aggro pulled by a moronic DPS. But some more skeptical playerlists might need a little convincing. Fortunately, you have a wide variety of fallacious arguments that you can pull out of your arsenal in order to convince them. Don’t bother using just one, either: use every one you think you can get away with, especially if other players have limited time (owing to the impending deadline) to refute them. It worked for Duane Gish, and it can work for you.

The first argument you will be using is DADV, which stands for “Dead Air, Dead Villager”.The real-life Italian Mafia abide by a strict code of silence known as omertà. Similarly, forum mafia teams are also bound to a strict code of silence that forbids them from talking whenever a villager is being wagoned.

It therefore follows that any game thread which goes for more than five minutes without a post is guaranteed to be wagoning an innocent townie. No self-respecting mafioso would ever wolfread - or, god forbid, vote - a teammate, and so if someone in the game is a consensus suspect, that person is confirmed town, and you should treat them as such.

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Alison%29

It was dirty of Dragons to suggest it and you should be more savvy than to go along with him like that, Bella. Are you still scum reading us for being confident and stuff or do you want in on the Crew Core? 'Cause we are about killing the Mutineers one by one while they flail helplessly until they are dead, not befriending them. Are you hardcore enough for that lifestyle?

I think maybe you should be the one to force Dragons on the plank to show you've got what it takes to sail with this Crew Core.

[Killing Joke]

Dragons is obviously the scum PR what are you all doing. Passenger doesnxt do anything to survive, doesn't vote Dragons back, Elements votes Passenger and not Dragons. town needs to switch to Dragons immediately. I am legit fucking pissed

[Killing Joke]

This is a game losing mistake you are making switching to passenger who is obviously the goon. Dragons fought to save his slot with every manipulative trick in the book literlly. I'm not watching this town lose because dragons gets to survive to use his scum PR at night and then everyone tinfoils "OMG DRAGONS WAS COUNTERWAGON TO PASSENGER" when anyone who can read these slots can tell this was an S v S cross between a PR and a goon

[Killing Joke]

I have been applying much less BoP to elements than others this game. Gimli, I don't think I've ever played with elements. As town are hey on a whole other level than this game?

Yes

[Killing Joke]

VOTE: passenger

Yeah no std not the elim for td

Bad. Switch to Dragons he's a scumPR. Don't make us hardcliam, Dragons can't be allowed to execute his ability tonight.

[Killing Joke]

We have some insifht into Dragons role and reason to believe he has an ability that scum are desperate to use tonight. That's why Passenger is basically sacrificimg his slot and didn't vote Dragons back and Titus voted Dragons only after it looked like Passenger was going through. Dragons is legit a scum PR and we don't want to hard claim but there is a reason he lie and flail in the thread all day like a magikarp caught on a super rod. Kill Dragons first before you kill the other three (maybe four) and don'tmake us hard claim just because you are afraid of Dragons obvious AtE.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... g&usqp=CAU

[Killing Joke]

I have a big post I've been working on for a few hours to wrap up on some loose ends like clarifying Elements' BoP and a perspective slip Dragons made implicating Elements and Passenger as buddies. I think the scum are 5: Dragons/Elements/Passenger/Titus/Radical Rats

Right now a significant amount of my Crew Core (Gimli, Bella and Mala) are pseudo-scumsiding by pushing the Passenger wagon through when that is NOT the way to do D1, a Dragons D1 lim is the coup de grace to a Town sweep and voting anyone else (even though Passenger is obv scum) is a lost opportunity for Town.

I am juggling multiple writing projects right now, please give me time to finish my big post which includes minor coordination of night actions tonight after Dragons scumPR flip and a reads list clarifying some loose ends and things I noticed.

[Killing Joke]

We have some insifht into Dragons role and reason to believe he has an ability that scum are desperate to use tonight. That's why Passenger is basically sacrificimg his slot and didn't vote Dragons back and Titus voted Dragons only after it looked like Passenger was going through. Dragons is legit a scum PR and we don't want to hard claim but there is a reason he lie and flail in the thread all day like a magikarp caught on a super rod. Kill Dragons first before you kill the other three (maybe four) and don'tmake us hard claim just because you are afraid of Dragons obvious AtE.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... g&usqp=CAU

Ok this makes me feel better. Sort of?


The mania puts me off, not going to lie.

But..... Ugh.


I need time to reassemble I think I'm jellified.

Do I believe what I've always believed?

I need to chill a bit.

Yeah chill it's panic, it's AI for me as Town, I do it whenI see Town throwing which is what the Dragon advocates are doing. There is no reason to Townread this dude and he really wants to survive to N1 like come on people. Passenger doesn't even vote him back despite claiming to scum read him and being an S vS wagon cross. It's obvious which slot scum want to survive to N1 and you don't need us to hard claim to realize

[Killing Joke]

Dragons/Elements/Passenger/Titus/Radical Rats

This is my exact POE unless like action Dan is setting himself up for late play

Yeah it's a good solve and I feel it's correct, the only thing you missed is that Dragons is an imoortant scum PR while Passenger I think is just a goon. Scum are going to pile onto the Passenger wagon for lol reasons (or no reason like Elements) so I need slots like you/mala/Bella to be willing to switch to Dragons.

[Killing Joke]

KJ is in complete panic mode and not even voting smh

Lmao elements

How does not voting =“panic mode” to you @Elements?
Also, what in your esteemed thought process is even a reason for us to panic? Are you scum here or Idk where you’re head’s even at if you’re actually town here and I haven’t been getting the best vibes from you so far this game.

Which then leads me too:

@RR explain how you’re so confident on both STD, Passengers being town? Because I don’t think they both are but you’re level of confidence here, makes me wonder if you have some kind of tmi read or something? What about Elements? You equally confident on them?

Oh and explain your PoE which of course includes your inexplicably terrible read on us + sr slots we think are town here.

[Killing Joke]

The fact you're so convinced I have a scum pr but also that rr might have tmi knowing passenger and I are both town is pretty telling.

Telling of what? We’re a hydra. This is MY question, not Joker’s, so whatever bs shade you’re attributing to that makes me just want to revote you.

And it’s scummy of you to intentionally miss the entire damn point of my HARLEY/ND39’s post.

I want to understand how RR is so extremely confident on both STD/Passengers and still wrongly reads us. I think all three of STD/Elements/Passenger have been scummy so for RR to be so extremely confident on at least 2/3 of you being town here blows my mind unless they’re scum as well because their PoE majorly sucks imo.

~Harley

Feel free to pretend Joker made this post instead of me again STD.

[Killing Joke]

I'm going to get called scum for this, but, KJ if you're going to hardclaim an ability, do it. Don't threaten it.
Theres better way to bait the NK and/or get people to sheep you.

Nope. Actually I would agree with you like 95/100 times but if you check how this setup works wrt night kills the mechanics are different which make my play justified here. There is no reason to expect scum have any idea what we can do yet and I intend to keep it that way. Dragons is a scum PR as far as my eyes can see and that's as much as I'm going to say until tomorrow. I will be including in my big post later a minor coordination of night actions following dragons scum PR flip.

[Killing Joke]

Like genuinely this is too scummy to be comfortable for Nancy to be scum and still post at this point.

Ding! ding because we’re obviously not scum which is why I’m very focused on RR rn. I find their takes: both who they sr and tr extremely bizarre.

I’m still suss on all of STD/Elements/Passenger/RR and I don’t understand why any of them are being tr here. RR especially ought to know that this is 100% town Joker here but they should also be able to read me a lot better too. Also still extremely surprised you can’t but I like the content of most of your posting, which is what I’m looking for from the above and still waiting for.

~H

[Killing Joke]

OK this is all well and good, yes you're locked on this SR and you have the conviction - what if you're wrong?

If I'm wrong then I've misinterpreted a number of things and will need to re-evaluate everything from the ground up pretty much. Also I would admit that I was a clown today and totally fucked up my reads.

[Killing Joke]

I'm going to get called scum for this, but, KJ if you're going to hardclaim an ability, do it. Don't threaten it.
Theres better way to bait the NK and/or get people to sheep you.

Nope. Actually I would agree with you like 95/100 times but if you check how this setup works wrt night kills the mechanics are different which make my play justified here. There is no reason to expect scum have any idea what we can do yet and I intend to keep it that way. Dragons is a scum PR as far as my eyes can see and that's as much as I'm going to say until tomorrow. I will be including in my big post later a minor coordination of night actions following dragons scum PR flip.

OK this is all well and good, yes you're locked on this SR and you have the conviction - what if you're wrong?

I want to understand the reasoning for that because I do sr STD and if we weren’t going to vote him, it might be Elements. I actually feel the best of Passenger out of the three of them, since so many people jumped on him so fast but I also really trust Joker’s solve because it’s a fact, that at least one of the players if not more he sr early game turn out to be right.

For example he was right on Andres slot in community and Roden. In ED, he was right about both Roden and RR - yet another ginormous reason I’m so extremely suss on RR.

So if Joker’s convinced on STD, unless I have a reason to think he’s wrong, I’m not opposing it like I did with Flea.

~H

[Killing Joke]

Harley we need more of you, I'm glad you're posting

Agreed, I missed Harley too.

I think people need to stop voting.

I don't know what exactly Joker sees here, and I don't think I trust him regardless, but if he's claiming he's got role information implicating StD as a scum PR, then we need to have that fully on the table so he can't try to walk it back later if StD flips green

And if he's NOT claiming that, then that needs to be clarified

Nope. There is no reason to believe scum can anticipate what we can do and it's going to stay that way. Nice try, though. If you're really curious what we're talking about then the player you should be asking is Dragons. But then; you already know Dragons role, don't you?

[Killing Joke]

Everyone is so angty right now. Y'all just need to take a deep breath and vote KJ

VOTE: Elements

I guess we stopped “panicking”.

Joker is free to change this but I actually hate Elements’ posting here more than STD’s.

~H

[Killing Joke]

Harley we need more of you, I'm glad you're posting

I haven’t been feeling too well last few days but all of that is beyond the scope of this game.

~H

[Killing Joke]

Enchant i've decided to read later in the game

RR I haven't read any of

Same with Eira

So why not and shouldn’t you be doing that before you vote?

Yea probably but I'm lazy

@frog
You keep acting like I'm trying to get town read with every post I make. I'm not, I'm just playing the game how I play. Nothing I've said about myself is AI. I'm lazy and town and scum and I would pay chess as town or scum.
(Can't look at your questions yet coz I'm at work)

KJ is in complete panic mode and not even voting smh

That's just not what I've said. I said you're in panic mode and you're not voting. That's two separate things that I have not linked in any way. That's the third time I can think of off the top of my head of your slot either completely misunderstanding a post either through rushing to respond or deliberately misinterpreting to show shade

Everyone is so angty right now. Y'all just need to take a deep breath and vote KJ

See, none of this progression on us really makes any sense to me. It sounds like you think Joker’s extremely annoying and you want to policy him or something because you haven’t given even one logical reason for sr us,

~H

[Killing Joke]

Harley we need more of you, I'm glad you're posting

I haven’t been feeling too well last few days but all of that is beyond the scope of this game.

~H

Yo mood, hope you're better soon friendo <3

<3

I’m still suss on STD for that weird vote on us but Elements continued calling for our miselim despite not even having one reason to sr us, is seriously bad but not sure how I feel that Passenger followed our vote.

I’m on the fence about RR because both their trs and sr’s really don’t make a whole lot of sense to me but I’m also paranoid of us being pocketed, so idk. \_0_/

~H

[Killing Joke]

None of the things you're quoting are about my read on you

You don’t even have one from what I recall and you are being the most vocal about pushing our miseim with nonsensical shading like we’re panicking. Why? God only knows and other unexplained shading on us. It just seems extremely strange to me that you’re so desperate to get us killed.

Why aren’t you scumhunting? You even admit you’re being “lazy”, so you can fall back on that when you get pushed after we flip town?

I just find your read on us to be really fake.

~H

[Killing Joke]

Take 850 and 866
In 850 I say you're in panic mode and not voting in a snarky way because frog comes charging into the game saying everyone is gamethrowing by not voting StD and that he knows what everyone is and should be doing. I think snarkily saying that he's panicking there is perfectly acceptable. Frog is also being hypocritical by telling everyone to vote StD but not voting StD.
You then quite me saying it's dumb to say your panicking because you're not voting. Which anyone who spends any time reading what I wrote can tell isn't at all what I was saying.
866 is me explaining that it wasn't what I was saying and that you have misinterpreted what I've said on multiple occasions.

To which you have now gone "none of this makes sense what is elements doing"

Hot take: Elements is trying to be the hero that scum team need by being so incredibly scummy that they get flash wagoned and Dragons gets to live.

PEDIT:

@Gimli

sowing chaos in order to disrupt a D1 S vS cross which was disastrous for scum.

[Killing Joke]

RR especially ought to know that this is 100% town Joker here but they should also be able to read me a lot better too.

I don't know why you think that because I have played a couple games with Frog before I should now be infallible at reading him. I do know why you think I should be reading you "better," and in fact I'd say I feel the same about you, though I have been intentionally avoiding that argument because I don't think it's a productive one to have.

Fact is, people can be wrong, regardless of alignment. I can say that out of everyone here you should know how I work as scum the most due to a combination of Even/Odd Killers and Cosmos Mafia. But, until now, I haven't, because that doesn't actually mean anything. Should you be better? Maybe. But I don't know what you noticed during our time as scum together. Maybe things you picked up on were shared between my Town and Scum games. Maybe it was something specific to that game, or my mood at the time. Maybe you're just a human person with a fallible memory. Maybe a string of recent games with me as scum have predisposed you to thinking of me as such. I don't know. And neither do you.

All I can say about my end is that if I'm wrong about you here, then I am sorry I didn't see it. And if you're wrong about me, all you can say is the same.

The argument is reciprocal and cyclical in nature, so I try to avoid thinking that way. If you're Town, I'd advise you to try to do the same. If you're scum, I'd advise you to find better material.

And that's the last I'll say on the matter.

Well that’s why I’m still on the fence about you but my question is why you’re so extremely confident on both STD/Passenger flipping town but my gut currently hates Elements the most because they seem to really want us dead for pretty much no reason beyond thinking Joker’s annoying but Elements more than anyone shouldn’t be sr us for that.

~H

[Killing Joke]

But you're not getting flipped today

And that’s why it struck me as extremely weird that you accused us of “panicking”. Like that didn’t even make sense.

~H

[Killing Joke]

"Elements more than anyone" why?
Last time I scum read Frog I was right?

And I've had a total of 1 game with him?

Well I know with 100% certainly that you’re not right and I think you just want to shut him up because I don’t see any real effort from you to parse us here - except in the very beginning when you criticized STD’s vote on us but have been pushing us ever since.

~H

[Killing Joke]

VOTE: elements

???

Why are you self-voting?

~H

[Killing Joke]

I'll try to post my big post in about ~5 hours. I know putting me on tilt so people stop listening to me is a really common resource for scum on this site so I'm going to take that option away by embarking on a side quest to restore my inner zen. I kind of like this Elements' wagon to make them squirm before the day is over. But yeah...for the most brutal Town sweep D1 ends with Dragon's flip.

[Killing Joke]

Must Dragons die Elements?

I'd rather Dragon dies than me

Then why are you voting yourself?

You’re play here isn’t making a helluva lot of sense irrespective of your alignment. You just seem to be throwing
votes wherever, similar to Titus but that’s more likely to be nia for her but you usually make more sense than you’ve been making so far in this game.

~H

[Killing Joke]

I think I'm quite a reactive player. I vote hop a lot as both alignments. When I get emotional I tend to get angry so I try to control myself as much as possible. Last time I got emotional I told someone to walk off a cliff and I don't want to do that again.
I'm a very impulsive voter

"'Show, don't tell' is a technique authors use to add drama to a novel. Rather than telling readers what's happening, authors use this technique to show drama unfold on the page. 'Telling' is factual and avoids detail; while 'showing,' is detailed and places the human subject at the centre of the drama."

https://jerichowriters.com/show-dont-tell/

Scum tell kthx going to walk in nature with a lattè now

[Killing Joke]

UNVOTE:

No wait actually

Enchant Town I think

And thank you

I'm pretty sure both your votes have been on scum but Dragons is better because scum risk losing mechanically with him. Dragons is scum PR because Dragons voted Passenger and Passenger was stuck because he couldn't vote him back because they were afraid the Dragons wagon would get too big.

[Killing Joke]

I really think Passenger might be town and just doesn't find Fenrir to be scummy.

*That scummy

Possibly?

I didn’t really care too much for how suddenly his wagon sprang up but I still think STD’s scum. I think his initial vote on us made 0 sense and haven’t liked much of their posting unlike in Temple and there has to be a reason for that. When Joker pushed Flea in our pt, I objected because I liked many of faer’s posting. Why I cannot say the same thing about STD really bothers me and makes me think that Joker’s probably right on him.

VOTE: STD

[Killing Joke]

I'm going to guess 10 pumps cinnamon, 5 caramel, 5 hazelnut, caramel drizzle single shot lungo blonde skinny extra hot dry Caffé Latte?
(If this happens to be your drink of choice, please reconsider. The sugar content here makes the coffee absolutely pointless as the sugar will kick and last longer than the caffeine. Source: I've worked in a number of coffee shops and performed various "experiments")

It's sugar cookie with oat milk

VOTE: Passenger
Starting to second guess an StD elim today.

Very interesting.


What about what Killing Joke said?

Kinda silly! Joker should have NO way of knowing if StD is really a scum PR or not. In other words, his insistence on StD on the specific grounds of "That's the scum PR! Get him instead!" doesn't click for me and this one thinks either Passenger OR StD should be fine in his book. Its weird, and this one wants him to expand on it, though he seems reluctant to hardclaim even though they evidently have big insight (even though claiming such things but not HARDclaiming just paints a target on their backs either way without giving town much reason to support them).

Let me show you some of the insight I have:

Hello I am here I have read up to page 16 but I can only post tomorrow

I scumread KJ, and STD and I tr Bella

Here's the mistake, scum!Passenger shouldn't claimed to scumread Dragons because it puts his team in an inflexible position. Then this happens:

i don't

i mean maybe everyone is telling me i'm agitated or jumpy or whatever by saying that but i don't think i was so i think people are just reading it wrong

my playstyle is weird and wacky and sometimes it looks scummy and i think that's what's bothering people which is why i said that.

i mean your vote on enchant could be performative "look at me i'm evolving from my death tunnel read on STD because i'm town"

but like i dunno why you'd switch off of me if you're scum i could probably be pushed through, though i guess there is enough hesitance...i dunno.

VOTE: passenger

Now for absolutely no reason from Town!Dragons perspective, Dragons votes Passenger. The reasoning from scum!Dragons is that it's better to lose the role in Passenger's slot than Dragons slot and scum can't get any wagons on Town because Towncore is too strong.

Killing Joke - null - done a lot of scummy stuff and at the same time, something about their posts feels genuine? I guess Frogster is TSTBS right now? I don’t want to touch this slot.
Elements - scum - 61/68 are useless filler posts, 98 is bad because Elements over-explains the chess thing. I especially disliked the way Elements dances around STD being town or scum, I’ve seen scum do similar things before. Elements’ progression on KJ isn’t really internally consistent, on one hand Elements is treating Frogster like Frogster is a stupid town who no one will take seriously, on the other hand Elements is tunneling the slot.
Enchant - null - Nothing of substance.
Bellaphant - lean town - Posts felt very organic at times, not much beyond that.

StD seems exasperated about being scumread

Agreed. I’ve done very similar posts to 761 as town before.

These posts make no sense from any perspective OTHER than one where Passenger can not reciprocate vote on Dragons for fear of auto loss.

UNVOTE:
Forgot about this.

Passenger is self conscious because his votes been parked all day and he couldn't fix it because of his mistake pretending to scum read Dragons earlier. He was afraid to move his vote around because he's been hoping no one notices that he refused to vote Dragons back as the opposing wagon despite claiming to scumread him. There is no reason for Passenger to do this UNLESS it's S v S AND scum can't lose the role in Dragon's slot.

[Killing Joke]

By the way if you want the tl;dr of the big post I've been working on:

Vigs on titus/rat, check-type investigatives outside Crew Core (Harley + Joker, Bella, Mala, Gimli, Eiralox, HPE) and outside lockscum (Elements, Passenger) to make sure we aren't getting snowed or to prevent World War 3 from breaking out in the Crew Core over the alignment of a slot like Flea or BBT. @Bella please cooperate with the Crew Core, scum say things to make us paranoid, it's their job and Dragons is good at doing it. Harley and I understand we both tricked you independently in previous games and there isn't anything we can say other than that we are really hunting for scum here and want to work with you.

I observes a perspective slip from Dragons implicating himself, Elements, Passenger are scum. They are lockscum. Even if we are targeted tonight I should be alive to explain it tomorrow. This also implies town!Flea.

The change between 220 and 723, 737 are the slip in perspective. As both scum!Dragon where I am wrong on Elements/Dragons/Passenger and town!Dragon, it's easier for Dragon to double down that I can't have three scum reads rather than switch tactics and pretend like his original post had a temporality to it. Posts like these make it clear there was no temporality implied or otherwise in Dragon's statement I can't have 3 scum reads correct:

Spoiler:

Your vote, Elements' vote and Flea vote were all fear IMO

You're several plums short of a fruitcake dude

because i think it's frankly ridiculous to accuse anybody of being scared of frogster for whatever play he's ever done so

who *bang* on *bang* your *bang* wagon *bang* is *bang* scared *bang* of *bang* frogster *bang* do *bang* you *bang* think *bang* if *bang* i'm *bang* telling *bang* you *bang* that *bang* I *bang* don't *bang* care *bang*

i never said your wagon was all town

i'm doubting your premise that someone is scared of frogster and is voting for that reason

but let's say for argument's sake i did believe that to be the case.

who do you think is scared of frogster that's voting you?

who

Elements has floored BoP range so many times they're traveling through reality distortion field and into a galaxy far, far away. Here's Elements second post of the Town game I played with her

Above the Line
Firebringer
Frog
Grib
Bellaphant
The Line-------Eiralox, NM, Enchant, Firth, TSQ, BBT
HighPrincess
Aisa
Below the Line

Yes that's her

second

post and no this isn't her Town game.

I caught a speculative TMI slip from Rats indicating knowledge of 5 player scum team.

I don't wanna defend myself too much cause I think this wagon can be important later but

what's more important, RR, that I called for votes on STD to flip him and end the gameday, or that I actively helped changing the tide of the gamethread to one where we're flipping elsewhere? there's no point to your scumread, IDK why you're thinking that.

Again with such strong presumptions... I think ye vastly overestimate your influence lad. It's as though ye think ye've got the backin' o'... Maybe three to four others behind ye.

Either way it's scummy they throw this out here while refusing to engage me about 12:4 ideas.

I caught a speculative ...not sure what to call it from Titus early on implicating herself. I guess it's perspective:

I kind of like Titus not knowing who we are. I think she’d probably be paying more attention to that as scum? \_0_/

My attention level is NAI although I prioritize games where I am not a hydra.

This is self-conscious in a way that indicates scum thinking because she is worried about the hydra slot containing Harley and I. She is anticipating the disaster that's about to happen wrt scum buddies Dragons and Elements when they barrel forward into Dragon's scum meta routine like inebriated Rambo and Bambi. Titus is already planning to lurk this game out until Harley and I are gone and her words telegraph her intent wrt game: the subtext is that she is that she avoids

hydra slots

. She suggests her level of engagement is NAI which is obviously not true lmao.

[Killing Joke]

This is self-conscious in a way that indicates scum thinking because she is worried about the hydra slot containing Harley and I.

This is a great way to read into the Titus' hydra bit

Titus let me be the active head in both LOST and Cosmos but town!her tends to have some stronger stances than we’ve seen so far in this game but we’ll see.

However, since she isn’t in a hydra, I would expect to hear more from her because she didn’t do much in redux and was obviously not in a hydra in that. So null for me for now but watching closely. Same with RR. Still don’t like any of STD/Elements/Passenger and Flea’s posting has gotten really good so feel good about that read.

BoP means either your degree of reading accuracy in general or on a specific player.

@Elements, I don’t feel your drive to solve here I usually do.

~Harley

[Killing Joke]

Receipts for my 4 games of Town talking themselves--including myself in the first example--into losing to scum!Dragons for lol reasons:

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=88804

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88987

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=89946

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89954

Every single time Dragons gets called out early on to varying degrees, spams AtE, a minority of Town slots start advocating for Dragons because they think he's the victim of...being correctly called out I guess...and then predictably they're kept around and the slot goes on to endgame. This is my fifth game against scum!Dragons and I believe this Town is no exception if you refuse now to punish him for being caught. The activity tell is not absolute and the post count can lie. Most of Dragons posts are literally filler to bump his postcount (47, 48) gaslighting his scum tells away (1039) or literally pushing ideas that are specifically documented to make Town lose:

I suspect scum aren't saying much because they're happy with the status quo

Yeah it's weirdly quiet. I don't think this should be the elim today.

Yeah it's weirdly quiet. I don't think this should be the elim today.

This is anti town though and a documented trick to make towns lose.

How to Throw Mafia Games

by Alison
Excerpt from Flashwagons

Many towns will simply heed a call of “flash wagon!” and frantically switch targets like a raid boss having their aggro pulled by a moronic DPS. But some more skeptical playerlists might need a little convincing. Fortunately, you have a wide variety of fallacious arguments that you can pull out of your arsenal in order to convince them. Don’t bother using just one, either: use every one you think you can get away with, especially if other players have limited time (owing to the impending deadline) to refute them. It worked for Duane Gish, and it can work for you.

The first argument you will be using is DADV, which stands for “Dead Air, Dead Villager”.The real-life Italian Mafia abide by a strict code of silence known as omertà. Similarly, forum mafia teams are also bound to a strict code of silence that forbids them from talking whenever a villager is being wagoned. It therefore follows that any game thread which goes for more than five minutes without a post is guaranteed to be wagoning an innocent townie. No self-respecting mafioso would ever wolfread - or, god forbid, vote - a teammate, and so if someone in the game is a consensus suspect, that person is confirmed town, and you should treat them as such.

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Alison%29

It was dirty of Dragons to suggest it and you should be more savvy than to go along with him like that, Bella. Are you still scum reading us for being confident and stuff or do you want in on the Crew Core? 'Cause we are about killing the Mutineers one by one while they flail helplessly until they are dead, not befriending them. Are you hardcore enough for that lifestyle?

I think maybe you should be the one to force Dragons on the plank to show you've got what it takes to sail with this Crew Core.

As the Joker I can inform you that it is absolutely too foolish to "give Dragons another chance." Dragons doesn't need "more chances" to mislead Town, Dragons has been given chances, there is no misunderstanding, they are simply scum. I do not want scum!Dragon on this ship and I do not to spend D2 hearing about how scum!Dragon is this or that and that's why they're really, really trying and everyone else is just sooo mean.

I have heard it all before, it was only convincing the first time and every time Town just needed to stop second guessing themselves or falling for AtE. It's not next level play or avant garde to vote Passenger out first because "it doesn't matter which one goes first" and expect it will magically get easier to eliminate Dragons after scum start picking off the players who scumread him. Keeping Dragons around to tapdance his way around our ship is an approach that's boring, plodding, fear-based, didn't work for any of the four Towns I've seen who tried it, and for God's sake read 973: the Dragon slot is told on by Passenger to be a slot scum are willing to compromise themselves over in order to prevent from being the D1 lim.

does anyone other than Frog see a perspective change between 220 and 723, 737?
Coz I don't

I am going to wait on the actual big post to respond, but for now suffice to say I take issue with... a lot of this.

It is certainly NOT the bombshell game solving revelation it was hyped to be

I have two scum reads who want to keep me talking, I've written this post, 973 and 1015, I'm going to stop talking.

[Killing Joke]

Receipts for my 4 games of Town talking themselves--including myself in the first example--into losing to scum!Dragons for lol reasons:

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=88804

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88987

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=89946

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89954

Every single time Dragons gets called out early on to varying degrees, spams AtE, a minority of Town slots start advocating for Dragons because they think he's the victim of...being correctly called out I guess...and then predictably they're kept around and the slot goes on to endgame. This is my fifth game against scum!Dragons and I believe this Town is no exception if you refuse now to punish him for being caught. The activity tell is not absolute and the post count can lie. Most of Dragons posts are literally filler to bump his postcount (47, 48) gaslighting his scum tells away (1039) or literally pushing ideas that are specifically documented to make Town lose:

I suspect scum aren't saying much because they're happy with the status quo

Yeah it's weirdly quiet. I don't think this should be the elim today.

Yeah it's weirdly quiet. I don't think this should be the elim today.

This is anti town though and a documented trick to make towns lose.

How to Throw Mafia Games

by Alison
Excerpt from Flashwagons

Many towns will simply heed a call of “flash wagon!” and frantically switch targets like a raid boss having their aggro pulled by a moronic DPS. But some more skeptical playerlists might need a little convincing. Fortunately, you have a wide variety of fallacious arguments that you can pull out of your arsenal in order to convince them. Don’t bother using just one, either: use every one you think you can get away with, especially if other players have limited time (owing to the impending deadline) to refute them. It worked for Duane Gish, and it can work for you.

The first argument you will be using is DADV, which stands for “Dead Air, Dead Villager”.The real-life Italian Mafia abide by a strict code of silence known as omertà. Similarly, forum mafia teams are also bound to a strict code of silence that forbids them from talking whenever a villager is being wagoned. It therefore follows that any game thread which goes for more than five minutes without a post is guaranteed to be wagoning an innocent townie. No self-respecting mafioso would ever wolfread - or, god forbid, vote - a teammate, and so if someone in the game is a consensus suspect, that person is confirmed town, and you should treat them as such.

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Alison%29

It was dirty of Dragons to suggest it and you should be more savvy than to go along with him like that, Bella. Are you still scum reading us for being confident and stuff or do you want in on the Crew Core? 'Cause we are about killing the Mutineers one by one while they flail helplessly until they are dead, not befriending them. Are you hardcore enough for that lifestyle?

I think maybe you should be the one to force Dragons on the plank to show you've got what it takes to sail with this Crew Core.

As the Joker I can inform you that it is absolutely too foolish to "give Dragons another chance." Dragons doesn't need "more chances" to mislead Town, Dragons has been given chances, there is no misunderstanding, they are simply scum. I do not want scum!Dragon on this ship and I do not to spend D2 hearing about how scum!Dragon is this or that and that's why they're really, really trying and everyone else is just sooo mean.

I have heard it all before, it was only convincing the first time and every time Town just needed to stop second guessing themselves or falling for AtE. It's not next level play or avant garde to vote Passenger out first because "it doesn't matter which one goes first" and expect it will magically get easier to eliminate Dragons after scum start picking off the players who scumread him. Keeping Dragons around to tapdance his way around our ship is an approach that's boring, plodding, fear-based, didn't work for any of the four Towns I've seen who tried it, and for God's sake read 973: the Dragon slot is told on by Passenger to be a slot scum are willing to compromise themselves over in order to prevent from being the D1 lim.

does anyone other than Frog see a perspective change between 220 and 723, 737?
Coz I don't

I am going to wait on the actual big post to respond, but for now suffice to say I take issue with... a lot of this.

It is certainly NOT the bombshell game solving revelation it was hyped to be

I have two scum reads who want to keep me talking, I've written this post, 973 and 1015, I'm going to stop talking.

[Killing Joke]

If Elements is scum then that does not bode well for the flip for either of these wagons

Your statement isn't true because Elements switched her vote in 1052 for a reason. It's scum's job to trick Town into throwing. That's what she's doing: trying to trick Town into Town throwing. It's level 1 wifom.


PEDIT:
Elements was one of Town's sharpest solvers in my scum game I played against town!Elements. She had a full readslist in her second post which she updated throughout D1. She aggressively pushed one of my buddies D1 and made sure they died D2, then did VCA and basically proved that I was their partner on D3. There really is no comparison to her play here and even without meta she's easily findable as scum here IMHO. I guess I can see how it would be confusing a little bit if you've never played with her before and are taking her fake dumb tells at face value.

I'll do a more in depth comparison on her divergent town-scum meta D2.

This is the game I played with her fyi:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89984&p=13562279#p13562279

[Killing Joke]

Elements i think you're getting fussed over a playstyle difference but you're not sring me. You could be a partner of kj soft defending them but I think you're just town enraptured by their content

i don't know that you're scum i'm just voting you right now because i think it's the most likely option but if you want to

prove

me wrong you can

try

@STD I really really hate both of these posts, we hadn’t really posted that much, especially me, prior to you posting 137.

Tell mr why I should tr 194: You say that if we PROVE we’re town, you’ll TRY to tr us. How is that a townie thought process?

If we proved it, then why would you need to even try? Of course since we’re not IC, you can of course claim for whatever reason we haven’t but it’s the if we could prove it, then you would try.

I’m now really worried about Flea because for faer, paranoia on me is absolutely townie for faer but not seeing how I’m bleeding obviously town here, is extremely concerning and makes me now wonder if Joker is right because I don’t believe there’s a world where town!Flea completely ignores MY posts like that. Even if faer thinks Joker lookd scummy - that’s his typical towngame. Metadive him whomever’s town. But fae should absolutely know that this is my obvtown meta here.

~Harley

I'm not a fan of this notably
I recall from townstumps one of scum!Nancy's fallbacks when accused is meta
VOTE: Killing Joke

VOTE: Gamma

This doesn’t work on me.

[Killing Joke]

I'm interested to see KJ's reaction to these flips when they return, I think that will be quite telling

Joker and I had allof therse (or mostly Joker) expectations and none of themcame to pass.

I didn’t expect either to flip town.

~Harley (last one was as well.)

[Killing Joke]

Fenrir was an easy town read, Nancy.

Try harder.

I’m glad it was for you. Trying harder doesn’t make one right, just ask Joker. He actually gave me homework.

[Killing Joke]

Elements i think you're getting fussed over a playstyle difference but you're not sring me. You could be a partner of kj soft defending them but I think you're just town enraptured by their content

i don't know that you're scum i'm just voting you right now because i think it's the most likely option but if you want to

prove

me wrong you can

try

@STD I really really hate both of these posts, we hadn’t really posted that much, especially me, prior to you posting 137.

Tell mr why I should tr 194: You say that if we PROVE we’re town, you’ll TRY to tr us. How is that a townie thought process?

If we proved it, then why would you need to even try? Of course since we’re not IC, you can of course claim for whatever reason we haven’t but it’s the if we could prove it, then you would try.

I’m now really worried about Flea because for faer, paranoia on me is absolutely townie for faer but not seeing how I’m bleeding obviously town here, is extremely concerning and makes me now wonder if Joker is right because I don’t believe there’s a world where town!Flea completely ignores MY posts like that. Even if faer thinks Joker lookd scummy - that’s his typical towngame. Metadive him whomever’s town. But fae should absolutely know that this is my obvtown meta here.

~Harley

I'm not a fan of this notably
I recall from townstumps one of scum!Nancy's fallbacks when accused is meta
VOTE: Killing Joke

VOTE: Gamma

This doesn’t work on me.

Would not be surprised here if Gamma’s scum. Gamma knows that I default auto sr anyonr who I don’t understand their suspicions on me.

I understand that people are suss on Joker but no one who actually knows his meta ought to be. You can vote us out but we are going to flip town.

~H

[Killing Joke]

Elements i think you're getting fussed over a playstyle difference but you're not sring me. You could be a partner of kj soft defending them but I think you're just town enraptured by their content

i don't know that you're scum i'm just voting you right now because i think it's the most likely option but if you want to

prove

me wrong you can

try

@STD I really really hate both of these posts, we hadn’t really posted that much, especially me, prior to you posting 137.

Tell mr why I should tr 194: You say that if we PROVE we’re town, you’ll TRY to tr us. How is that a townie thought process?

If we proved it, then why would you need to even try? Of course since we’re not IC, you can of course claim for whatever reason we haven’t but it’s the if we could prove it, then you would try.

I’m now really worried about Flea because for faer, paranoia on me is absolutely townie for faer but not seeing how I’m bleeding obviously town here, is extremely concerning and makes me now wonder if Joker is right because I don’t believe there’s a world where town!Flea completely ignores MY posts like that. Even if faer thinks Joker lookd scummy - that’s his typical towngame. Metadive him whomever’s town. But fae should absolutely know that this is my obvtown meta here.

~Harley

I'm not a fan of this notably
I recall from townstumps one of scum!Nancy's fallbacks when accused is meta
VOTE: Killing Joke

VOTE: Gamma

This doesn’t work on me.

Would not be surprised here if Gamma’s scum. Gamma knows that I default auto sr anyonr who I don’t understand their suspicions on me.

I understand that people are suss on Joker but no one who actually knows his meta ought to be. You can vote us out but we are going to flip town.

~H

Why this suspicion on Wayward Gamma?

Is ActionDan better?

Gamma voting us for the specific reason she gave, which was a complete mischaracterization of both my post and meta is 100% scum indicative for her. But Joker was expressing suspicions on him in our pt but for me, Gamma lied about my meta.

~H

[Killing Joke]

The cards for Day and Night 2 are as follows:

D2-1:

Eight of Swords

- Negative thoughts, self-imposed restriction, imprisonment, victim mentality.

D2-2:

The Devil

- Shadow self, attachment, addiction, restriction, sexuality.

D2-3:

Three of Wands

- Progress, expansion, foresight, overseas opportunities.

N2:

Two of Pentacles

- Multiple priorities, time management, prioritisation, adaptability.

The Ace of Pentacles from yesterday seems to have revealed it's play: The opportunity was the passing of a passenger, Passenger. More on that later, as for today... No doubt the crew is feeling a bit ashamed and guilty about the deaths of two loyal crewmembers, so the Eight of Swords certainly fits. The Devil and His negativity too will hinder us it seems, and the dark sides of the crew coming to light. Finally, the Three of Wands and Two of Pentacles feel somewhat linked. At the end of the day, perhaps some progress in the crew's favor will be made, or a prescient play will be made, and then when night falls it'll be up to the town to follow up on what is revealed by it. Hard to say exactly.

...As for Fenrir and Passenger. This one is starting to heavily question KJ, and Joker

in particular, and how much of a help they really are to the crew

when both of their suspects turned out to be good and true crewmen...

Are you suggesting to policy us?

[Killing Joke]

Nancy, given what we have in this game so far, I'm flabbergasted that that's your choice of vote.

It's so weak.

Gamma is someone I expect to know my meta and that post that she quoted is a reason to tr me not sr me and she damn well knows it.

@BBT, I know you hate meta talk but honey your vote on us is probably the only one I feel any confidence is coming from town. Gamma lied about my meta and HPE clearly trs us but is advocating policying us, so might want to look there after we flip.

~H

[Killing Joke]

They're not all heavily tied in with Fenrir?

And even if they were, which they're not, it's difficult to find someone who isn't heavily tied in with Fenrir given they were a leading wagon for pretty much all of D1 and a major part of all the discussions.

Again, you're being disingenuous. I have stated reasons why I am suspicious of both KJ and Gimli that have nothing to do with the Fenrir wagon.

You're either not reading the game. Or you're scum.

If this post is to me:

I’m neither disingenuous nor am I scum. I am ND however and dyslexic so you are going to have to break it down for me what you’re even talking about.

[Killing Joke]

Above was at Eira.

Nancy, can you respond to Gamma's post? If they're scum, why do they come into the game and scum read you knowing it will earn them a scum read back?

I think it’s pretty clear she’s just making baseless accusations atp

Please kill this after we flip. No way does town!Gamma respond to me like this. I’m not an idiot Gamma but since I know we’re flipping green, I’m more than happy to take you out right after if you don’t stop lying about me.

[Killing Joke]

Nancy, given what we have in this game so far, I'm flabbergasted that that's your choice of vote.

It's so weak.

Gamma is someone I expect to know my meta and that post that she quoted is a reason to tr me not sr me and she damn well knows it.

@BBT, I know you hate meta talk but honey your vote on us is probably the only one I feel any confidence is coming from town. Gamma lied about my meta and HPE clearly trs us but is advocating policying us, so might want to look there after we flip.

~H

Why no mention of Elements, btw?

Why itf don’t you mention them then, who/what is stopping you?

[Killing Joke]

BBT am I finally playing with town!you?
VOTE: KJ

Why are you voting us?

I actually didn’t see that @Gamma but we are going to flip town and if you are also town, you don’t want to be voting us so why are you?

Especially if you’re also suspicious of Elements and you’re right, I should probably be voting them and I probably will but rn I’m pissed at you for lying about my meta and if I get miselimed proving that, so be it.

~H

[Killing Joke]

{Titus, Wayward Son, Passenger, Actiondan, HPE}

This was STD’s last reads and two of these slots have extremely bad votes on me.

~H

[Killing Joke]

I don’t necessarily SR Elements? You need to stop putting words into people’s mouths.
As for why I’m voting you, aside from the aforementioned point I think you are exceptionally callous about your pushes given I don’t believe you’ve addressed the fact you were wrong about “always scum*” Fenrir and apparently Passenger as well (but I’m less concerned about that as I was gonna push Passenger first-thing if he wasn’t vigged last night)

*not a direct quote

What part of I am in a hydra are you not getting? Joker was extremely confident on his solve, I was less so. If you want to hear from Joker specifically, he probably won’t be on until tomorrow.

This is MY towngame.
This is also Joker’s towngame.

~H

[Killing Joke]

I don’t necessarily SR Elements? You need to stop putting words into people’s mouths.
As for why I’m voting you, aside from the aforementioned point I think you are exceptionally callous about your pushes given I don’t believe you’ve addressed the fact you were wrong about “always scum*” Fenrir and apparently Passenger as well (but I’m less concerned about that as I was gonna push Passenger first-thing if he wasn’t vigged last night)

*not a direct quote

If you didn’t just make that horribad vote on us, I’d probably be voting HPE or Elements for their terrible votes on us.

However, you aren’t even wavering which 1 would 100% expect town!you to do here.

~H

[Killing Joke]

Basically, it probably really doesn’t matter what I say here. It doesn’t even matter hox ridiculously I am out of my scumrange and how bleeding obvtown I am. People are wrongly scumreading Joker’s playstyle, so yeah he was wrong, we both were but being wrong doesn’t make us scum. If I had either played the game solo/Joker been proven right, I’d be a consensus tr right now.

[Killing Joke]

I think our last game together showed I’m not tiptoeing around as town
I think you have things that you need to explain, and continuing to be evasive doesn’t help.

What do you think I’m “evading”? I told you I didn’t see Elements’ post until you mentioned it.

Are you going to falsely accuse me of lying about that?

You weren’t trying to wrongly get me run up in that, so is this explanation even supposed to make sense to me?

And no, I’m half out of it, so speaking for myself is all I’m going to handle. I’m not even going to attempt to speak for Joker. You want to hear from him so bad, the, unvote us and maybe you’ll get your answer.

~H

[Killing Joke]

Harley, you have outstanding concerns about your FoSes on me and HPE

Spoiler: re: me

Would not be surprised here if Gamma’s scum. Gamma knows that I default auto sr anyonr who I don’t understand their suspicions on me.

Care to explain how these two sentences correlate?

Above was at Eira.

Nancy, can you respond to Gamma's post? If they're scum, why do they come into the game and scum read you knowing it will earn them a scum read back?

Spoiler: re: HPE

Suggesting you might be a misleading mutineer, actually.

You're right, HPE clearly TRs you

I am going to flip town. so you can have fun after that asking them why they thought that. I told Joker that there was a decent chance scum would try to miselim us after STD flip.

But to those of you who are town and thinking:

Why in the actual fuck would we ever nk Passenger when hypothetical scum!us could push him.

[Killing Joke]

VOTE: Elements

It’s possible Gamma’s actually just being bad - maybe \_0_/

HPE not off the hook not by a longshot

But this is one of the slots Joker and I were both suss on but seriously we are going to flip town and scum wants us dead really badly. So BBT is the only confident

[Killing Joke]

I am poisoned. I will die.

Scum has delayed kills?

This is wild, Passenger and Titus.

Maybe a very inexperienced team here?

[Killing Joke]

I am concerned because Elements expressed he was poisoned. I know we both visited KJ.

KJ visited no one.

I visit someone and determine who they visited and who visited them.

Elements should claim what he did.

VOTE: Killing Joke

???

Hello?

[Killing Joke]

I am concerned because Elements expressed he was poisoned. I know we both visited KJ.

KJ visited no one.

I visit someone and determine who they visited and who visited them.

Elements should claim what he did.

Where? Link/Quote? Wtf Eira?

Titus soft innoed us and my only regret is that she’s not an AC.

Like seriously if people are still going to run us up even after getting soft inno’d and like I said, no one is listening to me/going to listen to me. If people are okay with adding us to the list of miselims and yes we massively contributed and yes we were wrong but if people are hellbent on miselimmig us, I don’t gaf. And Joker will probably get us miselimed since people are wrongly sr his playstyle.

VOTE: KJ


We’re VT. Joker was trying to bait the nk.

[Killing Joke]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Elements

[Killing Joke]

Theatre is a thing, yeah? I think I'd flip kj first but like....is that what scum wa r us to do?? *Tinhat*

Ya think scum would actually want an easy miselim? Nah, never happens.

Scum!Nancy directed me to lost recently which hilariously proved my point (she had no reads in our game, she had bad reads in lost)

I was right on STD being town based on those interactions. I didn’t know then about converting. I had somr good reads in LOST and we probably won that game BECAUSE Of ME because I wanted Noraa first when everyone else wanted Johnny but sure don’t give me any credit for that. I majorly suck at larges in general and that’s not AI.

Joker usually is right and I was also suss on STD. But guess what, we didn’t vote him out by ourselves and we’re not even his PoE. If this playerlist is sold on us being scum when any not lazy person can just metadive both of ud to show this is our towngame. I just think that even if I get everyone tp realize that this never my scumgame here, Joker will probably manage to piss off the undecided and get us miselimed.

We could br mod confirmed IC at this point or Titus could have been an AC with an inno on us. Doesn’t matter. We are going to flip town and I’m gling to do my level best to determine both the people pushing us and the probable scum just letting it happen.

~H

I don't think elements is town? I think hpe is town and I think gimli could be.

@eira I guess

Cool beans, help me to bus them then.

Okay, what is the case on Dann again and still waiting for a link/quote of where Elements claims to be poisoned?

~H

[Killing Joke]

We’re VT. Joker was trying to bait the nk.

Probable. But rehearsable.

No he didn’t discuss it with me. But I don’t think you really need to be Einstein to figure out what he was doing, well me because I obviously knew we weren’t.

Damn.

KJ look real bad and Eira still won't vote them.

Elements, talk about that visit.

@BBT, name even one towngame you ever reaad me properly?

LOST, DoP and now this game making it 3 for 3, congrats.

~H

[Killing Joke]

LOST doesn't count because I literally got scum read by 15 of the 21 players or whatever it was. Extremely difficult for me to form any type of read in that game with the amount of pressure I had on me.

I don't know what DoP is.

Diffusion of Power. My point obviously is: 3 games where you wrongly sr me. How many games will it take for you to keep getting me wrong will it take, if ever?

But Gamma knows I’m both ND and dyslexic, she also knows that it’s not ai for me not to respond to a question or even understand why I’m being asked it but yeah, I’m going to be extremely disappointed in her if she’s town here because I think she knows me a lot better than her play’s reflectung since she replaced in and Eira’s going to look great after we flip because

we’re going to flip a fucking vt

.

~H

[Killing Joke]

I’m not opposed because that vote wasn’t good but I think it’s really weird Elements claimed to visit us and how did both of get poisoned?

Unless Elements claims to be visted by someone other than us, they’re confirmed lying scum here.

VOTE: HighPrincessErynis

Good for now. Look at Dan and BBT. Hope to hear from others. G'night.

I don’t know what to think of Dan but I think BBT’s town. He sounded genuine, confused and uniformed in several posts.

What’s your case on Dan?

Joker did decide to put Titus into our PoE but I know Titus is telling the truth about her check on us and I really don’t see why she’d do that as scum.

In terms of suss votes on us: best to worst: Eira (who already unvoted): BBT - already explained, Gamma, HPE (though really tough choice because Gamma ought to know better based off of meta) and Elements vote probably the worst especially if they’re also going to lie about us visiting them.

And thank fucking God for Titus because that’s probably the only reason we’re not getting miselimed.

~H

[Killing Joke]

Obviously Killing Joke looks very very bad now, and this situation is why I asked the vig to shoot them, but here we are.

Unfortunately looking very very bad is not the same as being scum, and I haven't been able to make up my mind whether they try to pull a stunt like this as Town or Scum.

Titus' result is nice to have, but I'm hesitant to put stock into it yet. Even if the result is true and accurate, it sadly proves nothing. But I'm inclined to let things simmer for now.

If it's all the same to folks I'd like to settle back on
VOTE: Gimli

The hell it doesn’t! We’re vt and Titus said

we visited NO ONE

.

Can someone please find that post for me where Elements allegedly claimed to be poisoned? If no one visited them, she has to be lying right?

Titus said that either both or she believes Elements’ claimed to have visited us, why?

~H

[Killing Joke]

I am concerned because Elements expressed he was poisoned. I know we both visited KJ.

KJ visited no one.

I visit someone and determine who they visited and who visited them.

Elements should claim what he did.

I stand corrected Titus knows both that she and Elements visited us and they’re now claiming poisoned? I’m trying to wonder wtf’s going on here, because we’re vt so idk if Elements is outright lying or trying to frame us?

OR

if I’m somehow wrong, some super bizarre thing happening mechwise?

~H

[Killing Joke]

Okay, my mistake I missed the part of Titus' post where she said Elements also visited.

Regardless, Elements claiming poisoned is not a thing that happened.

It would actually be hilarious if they actually believed we were tpr and they were scum roleblocker.

@Elements why did you visit us?

~H

[Killing Joke]

VOTE: titus

Are you seriously kidding me, she just claimed a soft inno on us, why would she do that as scum?

Also someone please tell me who claimed to vig Passenger?

~H

[Killing Joke]

Information

This is a Closed Theme game for 16 players.

Post cap:

There is a post maximum of 200 posts per slot on Day 1 and 150 posts per slot on subsequent Days. There is a reserve of 10 extra posts per slot for the rest of the game. If you exceed the cap, you can only post naked votes every 12 hours. Violating the cap will result in force replacement.

Replace-ins will be guaranteed a minimum of 20 posts.

Public setup information:

• The Town are called Crew, VTs are called Loyal Sailors, Town PRs are called Officers - whose flavours are derived from traditional roles on ships, and/or piracy in popular culture. At least half of the Crew are Loyal Sailors.
  
• The Mafia are called Mutineers.
  
• The Mutineers' factional kill is called '
  The Black Spot
  ' - it's a delayed kill. The target dies at the end of the following day. The target is notified by me, but it will not be publicly mod-confirmed who is targeted. The target of the Black Spot is eligible to be eliminated (like all other players) and doing so ends the day.
  
• The Crew's win condition is "You win if all threats to the Crew are eliminated and at least one member of the Crew is alive".
  If all threats to the Crew are eliminated, the Crew will win even if its only surviving members are scheduled to die at the end of the Day.
  
  
• The Mutineers have daytalk and multitasking.
  
• The game uses Natural Action Resolution.
  
• The game is not Bastard, but does not meet Normal guidelines.

Do not claim flavour:

Do not claim the flavour text in your Role PM! Doing so or pretending to will result in instant force replacement. Read on for more details.

This is the Loyal Sailor (Vanilla Townie) Role PM. It has no flavour text:

Spoiler: Role PM

Welcome to HMS Mutiny, [Player]! You are a

Loyal Sailor

and are aligned with the

Crew

.

Abilities:

You have no special abilities.

Win condition:

You win if all threats to the Crew are eliminated and at least one member of the Crew is alive.

Confirm by replying with your role and alignment in a PM to me.

There are other role PMs in this game which have flavour text. They will look something like this:

Spoiler: Role PM

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.

Welcome to HMS Mutiny, [Player]! You are [Role] and are [Alignment].

[Optional factional information]

Abilities:

• Ability:
  explanation of ability.

Win condition:

You win if [Win condition].

Confirm by replying with your role and alignment in a PM to me.

If you have one of the other role PMs, you are

not allowed

to claim:
- The image in your Role PM.
- The flavour text in italics place of "Lorem imsum dolor sit amet".

You are allowed to claim:
- The name of your role
- Your abilities in the "Abilities" section (paraphrased, not word for word)
- Your win condition (paraphrased, not word for word)

Oh so that’ll what the black spot means, it means poisoned.

What role did Elements claim? Why did they visit us?

~H

[Killing Joke]

VOTE: titus

Are you seriously kidding me, she just claimed a soft inno on us, why would she do that as scum?

Also someone please tell me who claimed to vig Passenger?

~H

why you want to out vig

I misunderstood the setup. I obviously don’t want to know anymore, duh.

~H

[Killing Joke]

I want HighPrincessErinys and BBT. I can't see any reason I'm killed if they aren't scum. Enchant and Elements are ok compromises but I'd hope to see something in my reads on my last day.

VOTE: HighPrincessErinys

How does that make sense exactly? What exactly makes you think that this one or BBT would absolutely have to be scum for you to be the nightkill, especially when this one hasn't really interacted with you to begin with?

How do you account for all of these posts after Titus soft inno’d us, yet you don’t unvote us and say absolute nothing about that?

[Killing Joke]

VOTE: HPE

[Killing Joke]

Subject: HMS Mutiny [Night 1]

Flavour

The Crew was gathered on the deck in the fading light. All day long the ship had been teeming with rumours, whispers and arguments. Presently, several pirates were being surrounded and accused, but the largest group was around Save The Dragons. "Get back, ye scallywags! Let it never be said that Fenrir is a Mutineer!" The ship's parrot started squawking excitedly in response: "Mutineer, Mutineer!" STD's cries fell on deaf ears as the bloodthirsty horde pushed and shoved him onto the ship's plank. Taking his destiny into his own hands, the pirate plunged into the icy depths.

Flip and Nightstart

Save The Dragons was a

Loyal Sailor.

Wayward Son has ~20 hours to pick up his prod, or he will be replaced during the night. Night 1 begins now

Subject: HMS Mutiny [Night 1]

This Fenrir wagon feels bad.

MY BAD

I'm sorry, Dragons. I thought about your final reads.

I want HighPrincessErinys and BBT. I can't see any reason I'm killed if they aren't scum. Enchant and Elements are ok compromises but I'd hope to see something in my reads on my last day.

VOTE: HighPrincessErinys

How does that make sense exactly? What exactly makes you think that this one or BBT would absolutely have to be scum for you to be the nightkill, especially when this one hasn't really interacted with you to begin with?

How do you account for all of these posts after Titus soft inno’d us, yet you don’t unvote us and say absolute nothing about that?

Because this one doesn't innately believe you not having visited anyone makes you innocent, at least from the impression it gets of how Tracker and factional kills work

.

Claiming some nebulous PR that somehow magically had insight into Fenrir's role on D1 so you could try and get him elimmed is also just a bluff that is making it extremely wary of you, town or not

.

The green and the red statements don't go together.

Subject: HMS Mutiny [Night 1]

VOTE: HPE
not rvs, going off vibes

What about its vibes feel off?

I didn’t like its post that said “Well, here comes the early claim.” It felt slightly off and contrived. Just a weak early read though.

To be fair this one genuinely wasn't aware of "Miller instaclaims", so.


Call this a prodge because this one isn't awake enough to properly read, it thinks, and it'll be busy soon for a while. Vague skim makes it not a super big fan of StD but it's not gonna vote on the slot until it's cognizant.

Scum post imo

Subject: HMS Mutiny [Night 1]

This one hasn't had a good and easy time keeping up but yeah it doesn't think you're looking too good either Elements.

I don't like this language here. Why not just "I don't think Elements looks good either".

HPE D1 doesn't hold up on a reread.

@Bella

Why do you Townread HPE?

@Mala, @Eiralox

What do you make of Rat, Gimli and BBT?

@Rats, @Gimli, @BBT

Can you Town case yourselves?

@Elements, @Gamma, @HPE, @ActionDan

I'm going to need a full reads list from you.

[Killing Joke]

Not happening anytime soon, pal.

Why not?

[Killing Joke]

@Rats, @Gimli, @BBT

Can you Town case yourselves?

No I can't. Even if I were to try, anything I'm able to articulate as being Town for x reasons, I would then be able to do those things as Scum to appear Town instead.

If you have specific questions about why I've done/said certain things, I can answer those. I can't tell you how to read me though.

What are you trying to accomplish right now wrt Gimli? What do you think we need to focus on to win the game?

[Killing Joke]

That’s specifically because I’m not gonna put much effort into this game rn and that surpasses my current effort allotment by a long shot
You may get it eventually, but I’m not gonna try to accelerate it at all.

Okay, why not? How do I know you aren't just scum copping out by saying "I don't want to put a lot of effort into this game"? How am I supposed to tell the difference between your play right now and scum?

Not happening anytime soon, pal.

Why not?

Because I don’t want to.

Okay, aren't you a player who presumably takes pride in their Town game and had the better part of a night phase to read the game?

[Killing Joke]

On a broader scale, Gimli is my most confident scumread and I am trying to get him eliminated. On a right now right now scale though, I'm mostly waiting on Elements.

Long-term focus is probably just going to be normal scumhunting. If we're lucky, Titus isn't the only investigative. If we're not, we're on our own from here on out, and it'll come down to the usual stuff. Dissonance between words and actions, associative tells, consistent bad faith pushes, etc. In particular your slot is very high priority for sorting, and we do seem on the cusp of figuring that out.

Can you talk more about your scum read on Gimli?

I'm not town casing myself. What a silly suggestion.

Frog coming in with all of these questions instead of answering the things that have been levelled at him is not a good look.

Talk to me, not about me. Why should I believe you're Town, BBT? How are you feeling about my slot?

[Killing Joke]

Can you talk more about your scum read on Gimli?

As I said before, entrance where he treated StD's flip as a foregone conclusion and urged people to vote there and get it over with was bad. Switching to Passenger and back and forth when it didn't work was also bad. And now they've both flipped Town, which reinforces my prior reads.

Okay so do you have any reason to suspect Gimli did that on purpose rather than being wrong town?

You're not understanding.

I don't particularly care whether your slot thinks I'm town or not. I'm undecided on your slot. I like Nancy's start of D2 but your slots D1 was absolutely horrific.

Okay and how am I supposed to know whether or not this is an act? Like if you're unsure on my slot why do you not care what my read on you is?

[Killing Joke]

Okay so do you have any reason to suspect Gimli did that on purpose rather than being wrong town?

That opening post. It was flagrantly manipulative, not inquisitive, or really even accusatory. There's been basically no effort at sorting or any kind of actual traceable thoughts. Just joined the game, started pushing Townies in the worst way possible, and then rode out the day.

Okay. What do you mean by "not really accusatory"? Is that something you townread for?

[Killing Joke]

My point is that Gimli didn't seem to care what StD's alignment was, only about flipping him

Okay I understand. Why is this scum motivated though rather than Town with a grudge?

Generally, Town will either try to figure out someone's alignment, or accuse them if they think they already know. Gimli did neither, instead taking the approach of "It's already going to happen, might as well do it now," which is an attempt to get Town to give up pursuing other reads, not to sort StD, or even really to convince anyone else StD's scum. Just that he should be voted for.

Okay and is this something you usually see scum doing on D1?

[Killing Joke]

Why would Gimli have a grudge?

Gimli i'm still trying to figure out how to read gimli, but considering we just played dance game where i wasn't scum, and we just played doctor game where i wasn't scum, why doesn't he have pause when thinking i'm scum or not in this game? he feels like he did in temple game, where he was scum.

temple game I was, to paraphrase nancy, 'brazenly lolcatting' from the get go cause I replaced into a nightmare. I don't think I tried scumreading you there? I pushed nancy and the results were hilarious.

so of course if I'm scum here I decided to just 100% take nancy's side and stop her from antagonizing with me in a way that there'd be no coming back from.

dance game I threw.

and the doctor game you replaced into a problematic slot that kept replacing out, that I was scumreading already, and frankly it was too late. if you played great town there maybe but your posting was w/e. I tried playing ball with you there but you were scumreading me there as well so, it is what it is. I was blatantly town and you couldn't see it in a 40 page game, so you can't read me either, you're right about that.

I don't wanna talk about other games but since you're talking about them I thought I should reply. it has nothing to do with this game.

didn't like this post of yours either so you gotta convince other people cause I'm deadset that you're scum again. I swear it's nothing personal lol, it's just how I'm solving from my end of things.

[Killing Joke]

Gimli what do you think of Rats push on you?

Passenger was a vig shot.
UNVOTE:
While Nancy isn’t strong with mech I also think she’d be stronger with it as scum between the Xenoblade 2 fiasco as well as seeing her in FFXIV

Whatever gets you to a KJ townread, but I wonder if actually thinking scum would kill passenger isn't sort of faking cluelessness? It doesn't take much mafia experience to understand mafia isn't killing limbait counterwagon like this

I think Gamma looks fake yeah

even if it's a little unfair to gamma who just replaced in

Objection! I think town!Gamma is eager to get reads and share their opinion. Gamma had the better part of a night phase to read the game.

[Killing Joke]

Okay so do you have any reason to suspect Gimli did that on purpose rather than being wrong town?

That opening post. It was flagrantly manipulative, not inquisitive, or really even accusatory. There's been basically no effort at sorting or any kind of actual traceable thoughts. Just joined the game, started pushing Townies in the worst way possible, and then rode out the day.

What about the general sense from Gimli's posts that they believe in what they're saying?

[Killing Joke]

I want HighPrincessErinys and BBT. I can't see any reason I'm killed if they aren't scum. Enchant and Elements are ok compromises but I'd hope to see something in my reads on my last day.

VOTE: HighPrincessErinys

How does that make sense exactly? What exactly makes you think that this one or BBT would absolutely have to be scum for you to be the nightkill, especially when this one hasn't really interacted with you to begin with?

How do you account for all of these posts after Titus soft inno’d us, yet you don’t unvote us and say absolute nothing about that?

Because this one doesn't innately believe you not having visited anyone makes you innocent, at least from the impression it gets of how Tracker and factional kills work. Claiming some nebulous PR that somehow magically had insight into Fenrir's role on D1 so you could try and get him elimmed is also just a bluff that is making it extremely wary of you, town or not.

Oh cool I was actually doubting my vote earlier thinking that maybe HPE missed Titus’ soft inno claim. HPE can die now. lol

~H

[Killing Joke]

Frog coming in with all of these questions instead of answering the things that have been levelled at him is not a good look.

Why is it a bad look? That’s pretty much town!Joker in every single game.

[Killing Joke]

On a broader scale, Gimli is my most confident scumread and I am trying to get him eliminated. On a right now right now scale though, I'm mostly waiting on Elements.

Long-term focus is probably just going to be normal scumhunting. If we're lucky, Titus isn't the only investigative. If we're not, we're on our own from here on out, and it'll come down to the usual stuff. Dissonance between words and actions, associative tells, consistent bad faith pushes, etc. In particular your slot is very high priority for sorting, and we do seem on the cusp of figuring that out.

His vote on bleeding obvtown!Titus was through the roof whack but it’s just such a godawful vote, it reads tstbs to me because it’s that terrible. But meh?

But it’s probably objectively the worst vote in the entire game thus far.

[Killing Joke]

This one is going to be busy for a bit so it will place it's vote now so as not to be wholly useless until its back.
VOTE: Killing Joke

Ok I lied and am reading through. This feels opportunistic.

So continuing with the trend from day 1

Still heavily scumreading you Elly

Can I call you Elly?

Either way your tone in posts like these is one of a wolf and I see you were all snarky on D1 cause you knew we'd all look like imbeciles regardless of the flip.

Well obviously vibing with both of these but happy with my vote since HPE outright scumclaimed.

[Killing Joke]

Damn.

KJ look real bad and Eira still won't vote them.

Elements, talk about that visit.

My read is that BBT is still town and will have a hard time leaving the KJ tunnel

I hope I'm right on KJ. It felt like town the entire D1, and I swear I'm strong townreading everything Nancy posts in D2 even if it's a little unfair to gamma who just replaced in

Also: hi gamma! Good to see you here

How do I know you’re accurately reading me and that you actually don’t know we’re town? At any rate, since HPE and Elements are currently my strongest srs, not going to worry about you rn but sheep me on HPE and stop voting bleeding obvtown, my god! *smdh*

[Killing Joke]

hello friends who's mafia

Is this 'that opening post'? @RR

I feel like I'm being gaslit. Obviously I'm not because it would take a massive mod conspiracy to do so, but I was CERTAIN that this was your first post:

I'm v/la starting tomorrow, I think the gameday is dragging longer than it needs to since half the thread has decided to flip STD already, so votes there are appreciated thx

And also that your ISO was much shorter than it is. I don't know what happened here, sometimes I read out of order so I guess it was the first post I saw and I just stopped paying attention because I thought it was a scumclaim???

Opening or not, it is still an incredibly scummy take though, and I stand by that.

If he doesn’t unvote Titus soon and switch to either HPE or Elements, I’m going to be very suspicious.

Gimli hard trs us and is currently voting the slot who claimed a soft inno on us. Why? @Gimli wtf are you doing voting Titus?

[Killing Joke]

This one is going to be busy for a bit so it will place it's vote now so as not to be wholly useless until its back.
VOTE: Killing Joke

Ok I lied and am reading through. This feels opportunistic.

So continuing with the trend from day 1

Still heavily scumreading you Elly

Can I call you Elly?

Either way your tone in posts like these is one of a wolf and I see you were all snarky on D1 cause you knew we'd all look like imbeciles regardless of the flip.

Well obviously vibing with both of these but happy with my vote since HPE outright scumclaimed.

Still think Gimli’s probably town since his vote on Titus is just too bad I think for scum to make it. fite me.

More votes on scum!Princess please but won’t be extremely upset if Elements goes over either. Not voting outside of those two slots today.

~H

[Killing Joke]

No answer?

VOTE: Killing Joke

???

Why are you voting us when Titus soft inno’d us?

[Killing Joke]

No answer?

VOTE: Killing Joke

No answer to what? We’re town. Titus is obviously town and I don’t believe either HPE and Elements are but if you want to scumside that’s on you bud.

[Killing Joke]

VOTE: HPE
not rvs, going off vibes

{

Titus

, Wayward Son,

Passenger

, Actiondan, HPE}

I think it’s extremely unlikely both HPE and Elements are town probably neither but Titus inno’d us so votes on us are either scum indicative: HPE, Elements or from possibly people taking leave of their senses? Because can’t wrap my brain about how we’re still getting voting after Titus said that

we didn’t visit anyone last night and we obviously can’t because we’re fucking vt.

If you’re either scum or playing bad and that hurt your eyes then good.

[Killing Joke]

Answer me.

Answer what? You’re voting inno’d town because Titus claims to be poisoned and she said we didn’t visit anyone so like fucking duh!

[Killing Joke]

I don’t think Eiralox is town.

Idk but it does concern me that HPE basically scumclaimed with her last post and there’s nutso resistance to voting her. WHY?

[Killing Joke]

I misunderstood the setup. I obviously don’t want to know anymore, duh.

~H

I need to know how you don't seem to know about the black spot if Joker acted like something they weren't?

The entire pivot of Joker's plan, from a crew perspective, is to be cursed by the blaggards' dark magic? To let the muteys waste their efforts on lesser crew? Confirming yourself as crew, making hunting muteys easier.

Like it's possible but honestly strange.

Another factor: Joker saying there are five mutineers. I had my own reasons to suspect this, but now with ya'll claiming yer a Loyal Sailor, the 'there's five mutineers' needs to be explained.

I’ll ask him tp explain but we’re inno’d town, so your vote on us is objectively bad. I think it extremely likely that one if not both HPE/Elements are scum and I think you waffling on us when there’s two extremely likely scum slots to vote for. Well hopefully that won’t come back to bite you but yeah I really do think HPE is very likely scum for not unvoting us after Titus’ claim. So you do you.

We’re town and Titus’ innoing us 100% fits because we’re vt.

[Killing Joke]

When you only have 1 nk, it’s generally assumed to be by scum but people were saying Passenger was a vig, so I auto assumed someone must have claimed that but then I set the setup and found out that Passenger couldn’t possibly have been an nk due to delayed kills, so when the player

who claims to be poisoned also says we didn’t visit anyone, anyone who’s actually town and thinking clearly should not be voting us here. That of course also extends to Titus.

[Killing Joke]

I very much still think you are crew.Which worries me. I am very wrong at times.


I still want an answer.

Well I can’t so you’ll have to wait for Joker but no way both of HPE and Elements are town here and I’m voting HPE because Elements hadn’t posted since Titus inno’d us, so I think she currently has more scum equity than Elements because of that and need to ISO Titus but there’s reasons she’s currently the most suss on HPE and BBT but I really think BBT is town because he just seems very genuine here and HPE just looks fake to me. I want one of HPE/Elements today. HPE not even battling an eye over her vote on us despite Titus’ claim is an extremely bad look.

[Killing Joke]

Joker's plan was tied around black spot. Why don't you know?

Why I don’t know what? Joker’s made so many posts in our pt, I haven’t even read them all. I think he’s writing another War and Peace in there. Also he never said anything to me about him softing tpr yesterday so I obviously wasn’t going to contradict him but no he never discussed that with me.

[Killing Joke]

Why did you visit kj

I'm an investigative

How can you be an investigative and still think we’re a goon?

And @BBT, we’re vt, so of course we can’t go anywhere.

@Elements have you ever fakeclaimed anything because if you’re on the level you should be voting HPE not us.

[Killing Joke]

I forgot mala existed. Mala should get checked with a claimed vt right?

Why settle for less?
With any sort of Parity checking you always want as much information as you can get so you always target 2 new people each night.
The collective information from more people makes it more powerful as the game goes on and people flip.

@Elementd, you need to claim rn who you targeted, because if you die tonight, we need to know the other two players because one of the two is scum and hopeless a protective?

Yeah I changed my mind, I believe the claim, they’re just dead wrong on us.

Mala’s done enough to be obvtown.

~H

[Killing Joke]

Uhhhhhhhhhh.............

What has Mala done?

Why is Elements town for this?


I think I need to know.

Because. Not trusting this.

Joker may or may not agree but as extremely off the chart’s scummy as their play has been, nothing in either Titus or Elements’ claim fails to line up with ours: vt.

However Elements’ isn’t thinking, because if they were, they should notice. that I claimed vt well before their claim and furthermore if Elements was looking at anything logically, they should realize that if we’re goon and heavily sussed, we’d be the logical choice make the kill if we’re scum here, so they’re understanding of every seems assbackwards upside down.

[Killing Joke]

I don't believe this makes sense as a fakeclaim. I already just explained why, and why I changed my mind from my initial reaction.

She is claiming parity cop cause she can back it up cause they obviously have a VT cop

Sure, but Neapolitan already exists and is way more likely to have been floated as a fakeclaim than Vanilla Parity Cop. Outside of setups known to have wackier or more convoluted roles, there's just not usually a reason to even think about things like Vanilla Parity Cops.

Why do I not check something I don't believe?

KJ could be whatever mafia role that isn't giving a vanilla result, and you still get a false positive by targeting someone else cause you're a parity cop. Seriously elly

Thinking on it more, the less I think Mafia Vanilla Parity Cop makes sense. My gut reaction was that it's more useful for scum, and since scum are already inherently nerfed by the delayed kill, scum having decently strong PRs makes sense. My mistake though was that Scum will, at least for a while, have known roles to check against, which kinda negates the whole parity aspect. Why not just give them a straight Neapolitan at that point? And from there why overcomplicate things into a double targeting role you need to carefully keep up with all game? Even if the role is just entirely made up with no basis in reality... Neapolitan is just a better claim. Easier to maintain, easier to understand, easier to not do anything useful with.

So I think I'm back to trusting Elements here.

Scum make terrible fake claims all the time, just like they can push weak arguments (like the one above) if they so choose.

If scum!Elememts claimed Neapolitan they will eventually have to face the "...why are you still alive" question.

I messaged mods last night and received confirmation that this setup *can* contain traitors and Rats is *kind of* reading as Traitor to me this game.

[Killing Joke]

Joker has called five mutineers(And is yet to answer why btw)

I messaged mods last night and received confirmation that this setup *can* contain traitors and Rats is *kind of* reading as Traitor to me this game.

I don't wanna defend myself too much cause I think this wagon can be important later but

what's more important, RR, that I called for votes on STD to flip him and end the gameday, or that I actively helped changing the tide of the gamethread to one where we're flipping elsewhere? there's no point to your scumread, IDK why you're thinking that.

Again with such strong presumptions... I think ye vastly overestimate your influence lad. It's as though ye think ye've got the backin' o'... Maybe three to four others behind ye.

[Killing Joke]

Eiralox, did I answer the questions that you had for me? Did you answer the questions I asked you?

IDK, Rats, if you're Town then I think your scum reads are off (aside from HPE.) I think your scum reads were wrong D1 too. I'd be willing to flip my read on you if I see you improve your solve of the game or do a better job convincing me that my own reads are wrong.

I feel like one of Gamma, Elements or HPE should be Town but I'm not seeing a reason to townread any one of them.

@Gamma @HPE @Elements @ActionDan

Any of you four who haven't posted a full reads list--or stalled like Gamma did in 1255, 1259, 1260--post one asap.

[Killing Joke]

@oops sorry Harley! I meant to post these last 2 posts together.

Please don't use imagery that comes from lynching even if you're not explicitly using the word.

I don't see how believing 4-5 is a reasonable team size implies I'm a traitor. 4 would be the standard 3:1 ratio, but there may be one extra to account for delayed kills. I doubt there's less than four though.

I think the bigger issue I take with this is that you didn't bring it up sooner. I don't agree with your assumption about the game balance. This is a tool zoraster linked to on the mafia forums here about alignment ratios:

http://games-net.de/hosted/tggc/trash/m ... 0&do=Go%21

I think the presence of delayed kills doesn't make it more likely an extra scum is on deck. Overall a lot of Town power needs to be added somewhere between the roles and the mechanics of the theme. A mechanic like Black Spot is favorable to Town and doesn't mean the setup is Townsided overall; scum are still favored 12:4 even with that change IMO.

[Killing Joke]

Sorry but atp I feel like I have good reason to hide at least one of my reads
So you’re still not getting that read list yet. Problem?

I don't think needing to hide 1 read is a good excuse and I don't see what the point is in hiding 1 read now, it's not early D1 where wagons are still forming. My feeling is that you're just being evasive and don't want to scum!post a reads list.

[Killing Joke]

I’m seriously starting to wonder between some people either possibly being scum or taken leave of their senses. Not interested in getting into a fight or anything and also not trying to offend but we have a confitown with a soft inno on us like we did in the game where I was in the hydra Arkham Asylum in Vengeful Ghosts where flipped consensus tr Dannflor protected us and there was no kill but the majority of the people (in the dead thread) making that decision didn’t think so and literally the only reason town didn’t lose was literally one of the townies who wrongly scumread us despite all evidence to the contrary, just happened to be asleep at the time and the cw was the last scum.

Wrt to Eira, their constant jumpiness reminds me of their play in Nobility where they seemed to be changing their mind like pretty much every 15 seconds.

I’m still suspicious of Elements but that post by HPE saying one scum between us and Enchant makes no freaking sense to me whatsoever.

Why make an absolute pairing like that between two players with no connection that I can see? The complete arbitrariness of that pairing just looks really bad to me.

@Flea - 3 words: *egg on face*. <3

[Killing Joke]

@all is anyone opposed to eliminating ActionDan today? Also, can anyone who wants us to unvote HPE explain what was actually so Town about HPE's D1?
@gimli

Post a full reads list please and can you self meta your scum game for me?

Excuse me.<br style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204);"><br style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204);">I have been doing a lot.<br style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204);"><br style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204);">I want gimli's blood<br style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204);"><br style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204);">but no one else does<br style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204);"><br style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204);"></3

<br style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204);"><br style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204);">I want Gimli's blood

Can you try to explain how Gimli is scummy in a way that I can understand?

[Killing Joke]

UNVOTE: hpe

Nah explain your read progression on HPE, Gimli

[Killing Joke]

UNVOTE: hpe

Nah explain your read progression on HPE, Gimli

It has no scumreads on D2 and looks like a wolf posting now

I'm not really in the mood to explain myself, maybe some other time

Nah Elements, what are you even up to? Where is your full reads list I kindly requested a long time ago?