Open 321: Kc's FIRE and ICE: Game over.

[Krazy]

I am led to believe that I am replacing this person gbevilchaos

Haven't read the thread yet.

unvote

for now.

[Krazy]

/confirm

[Krazy]

Self-votes randomly as a "joke"

No, lynch me! WEEEEEEEEEE! Morons with their random votes get town killed 99% of the time, so come on! Let's DO THIS!

w/e dude...waste ur time on me. You seem genuinely interested in finding scum, so I'll just let you take this as far as it gets you..

Dude, Johnny would've been on this VE wagon...I'm surprised you didn't find Johnny's mom there too.

-.-

gg Mafia.

So lynch me if you wish

obvious mislynch is obvious. I like how no one has any REAL reason to be voting me except for gb...who has unvoted. gg maf

I actually hope you guys do lynch me. Would serve you right. <3

Vote Visceral Eyes.

[Krazy]

unvote, vote:verydark

If you're not scum, you're sufficiently useless to be a fifth mafia member. Right now I'm leaning scum though, due mostly to how ridiculously easy it looks like it was to coast through this game.

You ignored my question.

You're scum.

That doesn't make him scum, but saying it does makes you (and your replacement, Klazam) probscum.

back, what's new?

Who's this person Toon Fighter that makes a post every month in this thread. Is he in this game?

That was sarcasm.

But really, you have left no impression whatsoever, and you sure as hell haven't scumhunted.

VE remains my vote though.

[Krazy]

That's the main reason for why i don't vote VE. Guy just seems to be emotional as soon as someone votes for him. Doesn't really help out very much in scumhunting, but.. I would rather go for someone who in fact is acting scummy. Will post a new vote soon.

Reacting emotionally to people voting for him is scummy; that he has flipped town in the past while also acting emotionally does not make him town this game, and does not make it a non-scummy behavior this game. A huge number of his posts this game have been him not only being unhelpful, but actively sabotaging scumhunting efforts by unnecessarily goading people to vote for him. This game does not have a vigilante, the mafia he does not belong to will never kill him with the way he's acted so far, and he will remain an extremely unreliable unclear for the remainder of the game. Nothing that he has said so far will go away, and as soon as the pressure was off him, he more or less became an active lurker. His suspicions when he was trying to deflect attention off his own wagon are precisely that: deflections. His votes have been for people doing things that just aren't that scummy, and not nearly as scummy as what he has been doing this game.

He's scum, he should be lynched. If you want to waste time lynching someone significantly less suspicious than him or a lurker you're welcome to try, but he is without a doubt the best lynch today. My vote on him is not for his emotional reactions, it is for the scumminess those emotional reactions conceal and the lack of any sign he is town

[Krazy]

Klazam, his iso has already listed all those people as his vote record. The only one iirc that he hasn't voted for is Cirno. But since none of them commit to a wagon that has any momentum whatsoever, honestly any of the four could still be distancing as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not sure which bothers me more, Empking's list leaving him no reason to commit to a leading wagon, or Klazam asking him multiple times to confirm his suspect list. As it is, Empking himself still strikes me as 'lost replacement' clinging to one or two tells that struck his fancy, whereas Klazam seems to be trying to overemphasize Empking's suspicions. Maybe setting Empking up for a lynch tomorrow, Klazam?

Yeah, I think CA/Klazam stays on my top 4.

[Krazy]

I can understand that people vote me, I'm not being very active, I'm on vacation and usually away from home and with very limited internet access, and that is making me difficult to stay active in this game. The game is also moving extremely slowly and with a lot of replacements, so it's difficult to catch on on the action, since so little is happening (a bit confusing, but I think you can understand).

Actually, I don't really understand. The pace of the game should make it easier to stay up to date on the action or the lack thereof, scumplaining about your own lurkiness and deflecting blame doesn't really help you.

In my experience

(and this game confirms it) lurkers usually get caught

and voted.

Hmm. Despite how ridiculous the italicized comment is, your argument even as you seemed to intend it doesn't actually make you any less scummy. A) Even if you did believe lurking is not optimal play now, that does not mean you thought so for the last few weeks when it was a lot easier with the wagons on VE and after that bouncing around some other people, B) There's no reason to think you were playing optimally even if you did think that, C) You're wrong either way, lurking works a lot of the time, and D) this is another post where you scumplain about the wagon on you, of which your last posts seem to be 3(scumplaining):1(accusing Reab). Take a page out of VE's playbook here?

God, I'd forgotten how slow this game is moving -.-

Nice choice to complain about it instead of saying anything interesting.


Wagon on Toon Fighter is good wagon, although my current inclination is that the wagon on VE is still a better wagon.

[Krazy]

No, said "VT" because i didnt want to ask what a VT is, because you would have misinterpreted it :/ NEED TO GO!

That is a totally unsatisfactory answer to your question, Klazam, (and your question itself is one I might have asked myself). Not sure why you accept this answer.

On the other hand though, I had a townread on MediocreJPop, which either means MediocreJPop was much better at appearing town than either the first person in that slot or the current one, I'm still inclined to say that Ceab is more likely to be derping town than scumslipping.

But this thing where Reab doesn't even ask whether he's claiming "voteless townie" or "vengeful townie" is extremely alarming, in more than just a scum-slip kind of way. Even if telling the truth, that means Reab is not asking vital questions that interfere with his capacity to understand what people are saying in the game. Honestly, not asking whether it's Voteless Townie or Vengeful Townie because he's afraid it will be "misinterpreted" might actually be scummier than the apparent slip.

Gonna have to process this one a bit more.

[Krazy]

I think the problem is that his going V/LA made you say "let's not lynch him today." That is backpedaling.

Saying, "I will have my vote on someone else until he gets back" may or may not be backpedaling, I think people would disagree on that, but disallowing Reab because he went V/LA from today's lynch... yeah quite frankly that is a backpedal. Actually it's a bit more than a backpedal, if you think about it, since he ends up being even better off today than he apparently was before the apparent slip.

[Krazy]

Pretty sure Reab is V/LA so I don't know what the point of that would be.

[Krazy]

>Viscara is scummy as sin
>Viscara gets wagon on him
>Viscara goes into hardlurk
>wagon vanishes as town consumes itself
>someone else gets wagon on them
>they go into hardlurk/v/la
>every wagon vanishes

The weird as hell stuff Reab said is still troubling (as is Klazam's strange responses) but the simple fact that every time someone announces V/LA the wagon on them vanishes is the failure of strategy that is rewarding people for lurking. David picking a fight with Cirno strikes me as bored town that is tired of waiting around. There's almost twenty pages of this thread, how about we pursue a wagon on the scum and lynch them, aka VE, and stop this BS where crying V/LA results in wagons being redirected.

[Krazy]

After a readthrough of the thread, I'm absolutely and unequivocally NOT voting for Reab.

Discuss.

I think Empking deserves a closer look guys. His nonsense of posting no more than one line or two is doing a good job of keeping us guessing as to his reasons for his suspicions, and that's pretty much all it's doing. Agree with him or not, I don't like the way he's presenting it. It feels scummy.

You never explained why you are "absolutely and unequivocally NOT voting for Reab" but now you're saying Empking is scum for doing almost exactly what you did in regard to Reab.

[Krazy]

Alright Klazam, let me just cut to the heart for a moment: cavjj might be sort of lurky and sort of scummy, but why is he the best lynch today?

[Krazy]

Wow, the mass V/LA has brought this game to its knees. I am extremely dismayed that I can get no traction on VE, and this game desperately needs a wagon with some life in it and maybe even a lynch.

Between the three leading wagons, cavjj is an unclear but not in my top three, David I have a slight townread on, and Reab is just a mess. Between the three, Reab has produced the most WIFOM material, after VE, and is the player in this game I least want to see currently make it to a lylo situation even if town. I can reasonably see that slip earlier in the game actually being a scumslip, and even without that, he's at best an unclear at this point. But let me reinforce that VE is still my first choice for today's lynch as he is still far and away more scummy than Reab and I just do not get how people do not see this.

Having absolutely no momentum in this game is making it really boring, and of the three wagons, Reab's is the best.

Vote Reab

ATTENTION: THIS IS L-2.

[Krazy]

In 506, CSL states the intent to force Reab claim and maybe lynch him. In 507, I state that I'm not opposed to you forcing him to claim, but I am opposed to you lynching him.
This seems pretty straightforward.

This isn't remotely straightforward and you're pretty clearly trying to downplay what was (and is) a blatant rolefish.

Vote Whiskers

[Krazy]

You know, honestly, this is the first time it's seemed like TF was interested in what was going on in this game, before going back to complaining about whoever happens to be voting him at the moment. He doesn't seem to want to find scum, he only wants people to not vote him, omgusing and hoping other people say something ridiculous. This most recent question seems bizarre and although I'm not sure I fully agree with Klazam's reasoning on why it makes him scum, I also don't understand why he would ask it it if he is town. It strikes me as an act, whether it reveals him as ice maf or not, to distract away from his otherwise active lurking/omgusing from d1.

Vote TF

[Krazy]

@Krazy: So your argument is that TF is distracting from his behavior on day 1 by congratulating the doc and asking the mod a question? That seems more like an excuse to jump on a growing wagon than proper reasoning. How exactly does his post distract from his behavior on day 1 and what kind of post could he have made that you would not consider an attempt to "distract away from his otherwise active lurking/omgusing from d1"?

It's supposed to make him look protown, "GOOD JOB DOC! WHOO GO TOWN!" Asking the mod a question about natural action resolution = trying to appear as "figuring out" what happened last night. Both parts of the post struck me as insincere.

His posting now that he was V/LA and that's why he never really scumhunted on D1 is also a load of bull, he had an awful lot of "hey what's up guys?" and then "oh I'm back." Have you looked at him in iso? Virtually the only time he posts more than a sentence is either: a) to complain about people voting him or b) to omgus someone voting him. Everything else is (in)active lurking.

[Krazy]

And I agree that he could have scumhunted between his v/las.

I did not say that, quite the opposite, actually. In any case, did you seriously just ask me to explain why I find his post insincere? I suppose that would be due to a lack of sincerity. Trying awfully hard to poison the well here, aren't you?

As for you, 1) do you actually think TF is town? 2) why did you choose David over Klazam, if both seem to be attacking TF for scummy reasons fypov?

[Krazy]

GJ mixing it up TF and not omgusing.

/sarcasm

Then again, its worked so far... Lurk, omgus, lurk, throw in some random BS. My suspicions of VE haven't really changed, you're simply scummier at this point, and your reluctance to do anything other than omgus has simply solidified my thoughts on this matter.

[Krazy]

Now:

Now, on D2, he just hops onto my wagon on the beginning of the day and ignores almost everything that happened up to that point (including his VE suspicion).

Earlier:

Re-reading page 13 and 14,

I see Reab's jumping on my wagon as a bit suspicious.

In post 301 he says I'm bringing content into the game. Then, Xanatos jumps into my wagon claiming I don't provide information and content, and in 334, after Xanatos has changed his vote to me, Reab suddenly changes his vote too. Sure, warriormode replaced out in the meantime, but I find it odd that Reab changed opinion so fast.

TF, not only is the heart of your case on me OMGUS, but it's the heart of the only other PARAGRAPH of suspicion you have posted this game. You ironically accuse me of "faking" scumhunting when damn near every suspicion you have been bothered to post this game is directed at someone

because

they voted you. Both your Reab case yesterday ("I see Reab's jumping on my wagon as a bit suspicious") and your case on me today ("he just hops onto my wagon") are OMGUS, and little if anything more (at least until Reab started confusing role abbreviations).

You're trying to dress up your case on me as more than that, but it's not really. You throw in some BS about "ooh you could be working with cavjj" but that wasn't even worth responding to, you try to deflect attention onto VE (spoiler: he's still scum, but you're just scummier today), and worst of all you throw out Empking's list, which based on your attempt to use it to control today's lynch suggests that

you

had a lot more to gain by killing Empking than I did. You're certainly trying to use it as a crutch to deflect attention off yourself.

And it's not even like I'm cherry-picking from your posts here, your cases on me and Reab are almost the only contribution you've made this game. Despite your "returns" from being V/LA you've done almost no scumhunting at all on players other than people who have cast votes for you. Your strategy this game has become very apparent:
-lurk when all is going well
-omgus anyone that votes you while trying to pawn it off as genuine suspicion
-(and probably) nightkill anyone that didn't voice suspicion of you to stay out of the limelight at much as possible and have a crutch to use in case anyone did suspect you

It's not working. You're scum. Get lynched.

Confirm vote: TF

[Krazy]

How exactly was my vote on VE opportunistic? That makes no sense to me.

For the other two, I can sort of see where kj is coming from, but his accusations remain unfounded. Before I made the vote on Reab, the game was seriously stalling, almost entirely because the wagons were so spread out so that no meaningful pressure could be applied to any player and votes themselves began to have no meaning. VE pretty much just ignored my push on him, and the lack of town support on him suggested it was time to look for one of the other three scum. CSL can choose to say that it's scummy to join a growing wagon but that doesn't make it true; sitting on a dead wagon can be just an excuse not to contribute to the rest of the game and pushes the game into a stall. Although VE was my top scum candidate at that point, it made more sense to get some momentum into the game, and so I voted for Reab. But, I wasn't really satisfied with that vote, for reasons I have already explained. When Whiskers appeared to be rolefishing in a way I took to be scummy, I had no problem moving to a better wagon. The weak vote there is the one on Reab, and I perhaps can see why including it as part of a pattern can make my votes look suspicious.

Basically, I can see how kj, as town, would get that impression, but it is the wrong one to make. I never shared the certainty that others expressed that kj or his predecessor PI were scum, and of the three people on my wagon, he's the one I see as most likely to be town. I was leaning scum on warriormode, and CSL I am having a hard time reading, but mostly think that the wagon on me is misdirected townies (due to an incorrect meta read of the situation and ignoring the game state at time of my votes) following desperate scum in TF.

TF's strategy of OMGUSing and then going into lurk mode until the wagon is off him seems to be working.

TF is scum, and I think there's two or three scum between VE (not going to repeat this), Cirno (because of his trying to derail the TF wagon today), CSL (because of warriormode), and Klazam (but apparently I'm the only one that thought ConfidAnon was scummy). That's five players and there's four scum, but I will have to figure out which one is town later as I would much rather lynch TF today than any of the others. Reab I'm still torn on but I've come to regret my vote on yesterday, and am now starting to lean likely town now that the "VT" thing seems like a legitimate mistake. Everyone else is town.

[Krazy]

I think I explained my VE case in #326.

[Krazy]

What are you looking for here? A bunch of chainsaws, or an opportunity to accuse me of setting up mislynches? I don't see a point in really speculating on that since I don't really see a good reason to restrict any of them from being partners with any of the others. Scum plays as scum, with the complete lack of luster in most of these wagons, I wouldn't be surprised if they spent half of every day throwing miniature busses at each other. There's really nothing but WIFOM in that route.

You're at this point accusing of moving around wagons too much, or overextending myself, while asking me to form connections that are quite frankly overextensions. You're basically saying, "please do something scummy so I can accuse you of being scummy." In this regard I must ask you to stop tunneling.

[Krazy]

I will be

LA

this weekend due to a tournament.

I'm having trouble staying interested in this game with the wagon on TF dying. I'm not going to resort to spamming OBVSCUM but I don't know what else to say on that that I haven't said already. Just read his iso people.

CSL is scummy but there are orders of magnitude difference between the two.

[Krazy]

It's also the case that TF and VE are on that wagon, and both seem way too enthusiastic about it. The only ones I can see as CSL's partners at this point are Klazam and Cirno. I suppose a Cirno/CSL team does make sense, but TF is still strictly speaking the better lynch today.

David, reread isos all you want, but all you did was sheep Klazam both yesterday and today. Do you now think TF isn't scummy? Did you ever actually think he was?

[Krazy]

In what way does this post seem enthusiastic to you?

It's enthusiastic because it's putting CSL at L-1, not saying he's putting CSL at L-1, and seems to be totally fine seeing him lynched. That's pretty enthusiastic as far as I'm concerned.

[Krazy]

So David, let me get this straight. You think TF is scummier than CSL.

But you think that actually saying this is scummy and a deflection?

[Krazy]

And he is OMGUSing me now, you don't notice that?

He's not omgusing you, he's desperately jumping onto the only available wagon because he doesn't want to get lynched. It's a poor as hell reason to be on your wagon but it does not make him scum, unlike you, who actually DID omgus both me and Reab. Simply voting someone who happens to be on your wagon is not an omgus, it's voting that person BECAUSE they are on your wagon.

Unvote; Vote: TF

This is unexplained voting out of desperation, unless CSL wants to offer another explanation.

he just hops onto my wagon

vote: Krazy

This is OMGUS.

Magnitudes of difference between these two. Bitch about that metaphor if you want, it's the truth.

[Krazy]

Also, you seem to have forgotten the rest of my post. What about the difference between L-3 and the L-1 that you said? One of the reasons to attack me was gone, and you just skipped it.

I don't even know what to say about the L-3/L-1 thing, I was posting from my phone, thought I remembered the vote progression but apparently I had forgotten that you were the L-3 vote. So I derped. What do you want to make of it?

I didn't vote you because you hopped on my wagon, I voted a player that I thought was suspicious after I read Empking's list and your ISO. I just mentioned the part about you hopping my wagon because I thought (and think) it was opportunistic and unjustified, NOT because the wagon was on ME. Also, your "quote" was very selective, you should quote the whole post to let the rest of the players decide better whether to vote me or not. [My vote on you] was as much of an OMGUSing as was CSL's (that means, no OMGUS) (and I believe [CSL's vote] was a vote out of desperation, and I just called you on that to see what your response would be). Also,

If you think my vote on you was OMGUS, you have to believe CSL's vote was OMGUS as well.

Also, after I voted you, you came back at me much stronger. Isn't that some sort of OMGUS as well? Reaffirming your vote on me after I voted you?

No, you omgusing me and me recognizing this for what is does not in turn also become an omgus.

There is a fine distinction between your vote for me and CSL's vote for you.

In CSL's case, CSL is simply trying to get a lynch on someone other than himself. This is desperate, but not inherently scummy, even if it is pretty weak town play.

Your vote for me, on the other hand, seemed not so much to get a lynch on someone other than yourself so much as it was to make the wagon on you look unappealing. In essence, it seemed like the primary purpose of it was to avoid letting a wagon on you develop. This strikes me as fundamentally scummy, and in essence, scummier than CSL's vote of desperation.

[Krazy]

You guys are scummy as hell. Claim precedes lynch every single time as far as I know, and it looked like Reab was getting lynched. Voting for someone who calls for a claim from someone who's very obviously getting lynched is ridiculous.

UNVOTE: ToonFighter
VOTE: CSL

FoS: Klazam & ToonFighter

By this same logic then, you are soft-defending ToonFighter since you are not actively advocating his lynch, QED you are on a scumteam with TF?

[Krazy]

vote Toon Fighter

He's still scum.

[Krazy]

I think we should all release our townlists and then vote the person that is on none of them.

My townlist is DX, smarg, Reab,

then I'm caught between VE and Klazam

.

In the context of your previous post, that is the scummiest townlist I've ever seen.

[Krazy]

My townlist is DX, smarg, Reab, then I'm caught between VE and Klazam. But I'm fairly certain Krazy, Cirno, and TF are all scum.

Here's what I don't get kj. Here, and perhaps this is just the way you presented this particular post, but it seems like here you're indicating relatively equal certain that the three people in your scumlist (myself, Cirno, and TF) are scum. Yet you're ridiculously tunneling on me, and seem to be actively discouraging a lynch on TF. You do this whole "townlist" thing exclusively to target me, when according to your own rationale behind it ("well, we just need to eliminate the town from our list and we'll have a lynch"), you technically should be voting TF, who if I'm reading this right, no one actually has said they think is town (something you should have realized before playing games with town reads, and instead just by reading the thread)--and instead, you do everything in your power to fight against a TF lynch and push my lynch. I just don't understand why, from your own stated point of view, you would do this, unless a part of your agenda included not having TF lynched today. I can only think of one reason you would take that position, and in combination with your unusual tweaking/fence-sitting/wtf of the "VE or Klazam" in your townlist, especially in the context of the previous post, you have pretty much completely undone my townread on you.

That being said, I don't see it as wholly impossible that your play today just completely fell apart or something. But your freaking out over VE and Klazam's posts suggests that for some reason you really don't want TF lynched today, despite listing him as one of your top three scum reads. You present the appearance of purely wanting to lynch scum in this "town list" thing but it's pretty clear you just wanted to lynch me. Since when do town need to mask their true motivations?

[Krazy]

Krazy: please find examples of killer defending ToonFighter. I do not see any. (Although you got killer's insane tunneling on you right)

I'm saying that his tunneling on me when his own little "townread game" would suggest that he should be voting TF suggests that he does not actually want to vote TF, despite his townread on him. Instead of clarifying his stance on TF, kj just deflects by scumplaining back at me. He's avoiding the issue of TF because he would have to explain his rationale for his read on TF, which he apparently doesn't want to do.

Despite TF now being his #3 candidate, he's pretty much not discussed TF at all except in the context of being "CSL's partner" which was weak as hell, and his current read on TF as his #3 candidate has never been explained in any way.

Now, he's welcome to explain that now, but at this point the way he's been tunneling on me over TF certainly suggests an aversion to the TF wagon to me.

[Krazy]

when the truth of the matter is no one's brought up my opinion on TF or my reasons for it.

Maybe no one's brought up your opinion of TF because you have not once addressed a question to him or acted like he's in this game except as "CSL's partner" until today where you listed him without explanation as your #3. I like you acting like you're totally indifferent who gets lynched when every other post from you is clearly advocating my lynch. [sarcasm] And of course that I'm the most active proponent of TF's lynch has nothing to do with that [/sarcasm].

The problem of course isn't that you dodged the results of your "townread game" when it didn't match your preferred lynch, it was a terrible idea to begin with as Smarg pointed out, and your about face afterward just makes it clear that not only was it a terrible idea, it wasn't really even a sincerely bad idea, instead it was a covert way to push my lynch. Again, I see no reason why, as town, you would mask your objectives like that, and do so in the context of fishing out townreads as well.

I think you're lying when you say that me and TF are equally appealing to you, and I think the "townread game" also suggests scum motivation.

Vote kj

[Krazy]

I mean really. Krazy thinks I'm partner with TF because I think he's scum but didn't vote him, when really I was just caught up with how scummy Krazy was.

I know I was probably starting to give that impression, and it definitely is a reasonable assessment, but actually my problem was that your interaction (or lack of interaction given your suspicion) made no sense in the context of you tunneling on me, and your apparently subversive tactics to control the lynch did not reflect town motivations.

Although your newfound enthusiasm for TF is encouraging, you still haven't actually explained why YOU think he is scum. Can you please do that?

[Krazy]

kj a few things:

You start out saying that TF throws out an "opportunistic" vote on VE, yet the rest of the time you list him as "distancing VE". It seems like you're saying that TF and VE are likely partners, in which case are you saying that first "opportunistic" vote was a bus? If not can you explain what you mean exactly by "opportunistic".

I still don't understand why you would go full speed ahead on me if you had a similar reaction to the "Kudos for the doc post" that Klazam had. If you thought Toon Fighter was scummy at that point in the game, why would you instead ignore Toon Fighter's post at that point (iirc this is the first time you've commented on it at all) and the growing case on him, and instead try to start a wagon on someone on his wagon?

And if you think TF killed Empking to set up lynches from Empking's lynch pool, why would you then join him on my wagon if that is exactly what he was doing? Your reasoning was "this person is scum and therefore I will join him on a scum wagon"?

Also, you say that he killed Empking to set up lynches from Empking's lynch pool, then TF's OMGUS vote on me where he does exactly that is "the first genuine scumhunting" you've seen him do all game?

[Krazy]

Krazy: You're totally defending TF! SCUMZZZZ!
Me: No, I've said he's scum. I want him dead, too.

Although that was my first impression, and it still doesn't seem an unreasonable one, what it boils down to is that your suspicions of TF are inconsistent with your actions and stated suspicions throughout the last two days. I'm having difficulty understanding why, as town, you would:
a) Not address a post you take to be suspicious (the doc congratulation post) when it is made.
b) Instead of addressing it, try to form a wagon on someone who does, while still avoiding (or at least NOT) addressing the other player.
c) Create a game to force out town-reads.
d) Refuse to explain why you believe players are scum in and of their posts themselves (first for TF) and instead rely almost exclusively, until goaded to actually explain your reasoning, on associative tells (now true in regard to VE).

You may be scum with TF. Or you may be on opposing factions and your current vote on him is opportunistic. But after your previous tunneling on me, your current case on TF just seems... insincere, forced, and inconsistent with both your behavior throughout this game, and to an extent, with your own reasoning. First TF is scum killing Empking to set up mislynches. Then TF is scumhunting on me. In the context of the current game it is opportunistic as well. I'll have to ponder this, but as of right now, I don't see a town motivation in any of those four points.

[Krazy]

ALthough KJ's interactions with VE are weird, I think it's a one-sided weird, mostly on the side of KJ. VE has explained his reads this game (after the AtE d1), unlike KJ who went full swing on TF pretty much out of nowhere, which was, to use his favorite word, sheer opportunism. Between the two, VE could just be mistaken, but KJ is certainly scum. The Smarg kill only seals the deal. I think the self-vote nonsense is really just to distract from the nightkill.

Vote KJ

[Krazy]

It's not really a prediction when you were my top suspect and my vote at the end of yesterday, kj, nice attempt to poison the well though.

[Krazy]

Reab, did you just spend the post where you vote me dedicated to complaining about people getting distracted by the KJ wagon--the same KJ wagon that not three posts ago you JUMPED OFF OF because I retained my suspicions from yesterday?

As for your 'case' against me (using that term loosely here), I've been pretty clear about my reasons for suspecting KJ, most succinctly in 863. My vote on him today was largely based on my case developed throughout yesterday, which you have either ignored, failed to read, or willfully forgotten.

[Krazy]

FUCK. If Reab flips town, then David you seriously need to doc me. I'm the only damn vanilla town left

hi gaiz we're the mafia trollolololol

[Krazy]

The doctor should protect scum

OMFG, if Reab really does flip town, then that means David saved Fire Maf in VE. DAVID WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?

This game.

[Krazy]

I've been rereading Reab very carefully, and I've reached a conclusion that I believe many will find controversial. I will explain my reasoning here as best as we can.

Our utmost, very top priority here is that under no circumstances can we lynch the second fire mafia today. If we did, the Ice Mafia would immediately win. For this reason, I reread the thread and tried to isolate anyone that I could not see as partners with Reab. I have supported many suspicions throughout this game, but today must be different, because with one scum dead we cannot simply lynch scum, we must lynch Ice Mafia. But don't think I'm not looking at you, KJ.

I may need to break this up into multiple posts as it starts getting very long when we consider Reab's reactions toward the other players in the game, and my own suspicions after this process, but let me cut to the chase first: I believe that Viscera Eyes is a member of the Ice Mafia, and even moreso, I believe there is no way that VE is a member of the Fire Mafia. Although there are several candidates for Ice Mafia, only VE stands out as the one that cannot possibly be Fire Mafia, and I will explain why.

I. MediocreJPop's Attempt to Lynch VE Day 1, and VE's contribution to Reab's lynch: Two reasons that VE is not Fire Mafia.

In this game, with a large town and an opposing scum team, I find it almost unfathomable that scum would be lynching each other day 1. Now, as the game progressed, as it became clear that wagons were all over the place, I find it increasingly likely, as I said before, that scum would attempt to bus each other. But, on day 1, a bus would have almost certainly resulted in that scum team's loss.

Here, MediocreJPop pushes VE to L-1:

I was going to vote Toon Warrior, but that was yet another appeal to emotion from Viscera. He's no asset to the town, and is scummy as hell. I also don't get why he can't vote for Empking for reasons OTHER than him voting for Viscera. Feels to me like he just wants to OMGUS.

Vote: Viscera

Here, he shows awareness that VE is at L-1:

I see I pushed Viscera to L-1. Pretty comfortable with that, actually. I want to see a claim at this point, and I don't see Mafia quick-hammering in this situation.

Eventually, MediocreJPop moves away from VE:

Meh, I was mostly just wanting the end bit- it would have been better if you had let verydark respond to the case himself, and then dissected the case. That way, we would have gotten a fresh reaction. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough, although I'm not sure how I could have worded it better. That said, I'm going to kill two birds with one stone here- there are a couple off things about your defense, and a couple off things about Viscera's attack that I was going to save for later.

To viscera

I honestly don't care if this looks like OMGUS,

Well, obviously you DO care that it looks like OMGUS, why else would you bother to mention that others could percieve it as such?

I'll tell you who I find suspicious. VeryDark.

I know that he's new, and it could just be the way he writes but to me, this just feels so melodramatic and over-the-top. It just... feels fake to me. Like he's trying hard to make it LOOK like he's actually scumhunting.

...

I'm thinking it's time to take a different approach. I don't see pressure on Viscera really contributing that much to the town at this point- he has definitely upped his play a bit under pressure, and is now even making cases. I think it's time to spread the love around a bit, especially since so many players could use pressure right now. (Hey there PI, want to start actually contributing to the game yet?)

unvote

Vote: Toon Warrior

Here, MediocreJPop wants to move from one opportunistic wagon on to something that might end in a lynch on someone other than his real buddy. He is clearly leaving VE open as a potential future lynch.

Now let's move to VE's interactions with Reab yesterday:

UNVOTE: killerjester

And I'll just leave it at that for now.

Reab, you don't know that. What you meant to say is KJ is PROBABLY mafia, and Krazy is PROBABLY mafia too. You can't be sure that either one of them are Mafia, unless your one of their scumbuddies...which since you unvoted KJ (and seemed to know which faction he was) leads me to believe that's the case.

VOTE: Reab

If he flips mafia, I'd like to take a VERY close look at KJ everyone. Krazy is seeming town to me, I don't know why everyone seems to think he's scum.

In these two posts, VE first lampshades voting Reab, then actually does so. This comes at a fairly critical juncture, and would come over lynching KJ, who was still a strong contender for yesterday's lynch. Although, as I mentioned, many buses throughout the days would make sense, this one does not.


Now, before I move on to why VE is scum individually, I would first like to address what I take to be the single biggest objection to my assertion that VE is Ice Mafia: the claimed save on him the night that Smarg died.

II. Reasons the 'presumed save' on VE does not actually clear him, and why some of his comments may instead rest against him

Thx for the presumed save DX,

I can't imagine Ice forgot to submit a kill after x+3 (where x is a number too ridiculous for me to remember this early) days of night.

Be that as it may, I'm not sold on a KJ lynch. His self-vote, while strange, isn't enough to mark him as mafia to me. *shrug*

What I find particularly interesting here, is first how VE 'can't imagine Ice forgot to submit a kill' which does two things:
-It reveals that VE even considered the possibility that scum could forget to submit a kill
-It reveals that VE did NOT want to consider the possibility that Ice Mafia no-killed.

Let's think about the state of the game the night before Smarg died:

-David seemed to insinuate that CSL had been a doc save, and yet CSL was lynched anyway.
-With this in mind, it seems extremely unlikely that the town would lynch future 'doc saves' except in a worst case scenario.
-Although David could protect a kill against them, if they no-killed and he docced them, then that would be a huge boon: if David continued doccing VE, then that would give him unlimited reign to kill the Fire Mafia.

For these reasons, it seems to make sense that Ice Mafia had a lot to gain if David protected one of them and they no-killed.
David was unlikely to protect, based on his posts:
-Killerjester or Reab; for this reason, if Ice Mafia no-killed the night Smarg died, then a team with VE + Klazam or VE + Cirno makes a lot more sense to me. If both Klazam and VE thought that David was likely to protect them, and that two or three other players were very UNLIKELY to be protected, then their chances of being docced would actually have been quite high.

The basic point of all this is, I believe that the night Smarg died, it's a fairly likely scenario that an Ice Mafia team including VE opted to no-kill (which may explain why the kills have seemed so erratic, with two cross-kills etc.) The other, less likely scenario, is that VE and his partner simply decided to submit a kill... incidentally, this once again suggests a VE + Klazam (who has had periods of inactivity this game) or a VE + Cirno (who is always lurky) makes the most sense to me.

Also, look at the way he plays up the doc save:

In spite of scummy behavior. You're not willing to even consider the possibility because you think you successfully blocked a night-kill of that person, in SPITE of behavior that very clearly points out someone as scum. Knowing there are two factions in play.

Very good then. Enjoy your last day on earth. I'm not going to try and pressure you to hammer CSL because it would only hasten your demise having claimed.

Everyone else needs to take a long look at the events of today and ask themselves if CSL is HONESTLY playing with town's best interest in mind.

He uses AtE in response to questions related to doc saves in spite of being the save... it's just weird, and not town. I wish I saw it earlier.

III. VE's individual scumminess

I for one do not at all see the Day 1 AtE as likely to come from town, but apparently a lot of people refuse to look at that for reasons I can't fathom (poor form remaining town), but for that reason I will look at the things that, now that I see them, seem incredibly scummy.

At present (before rereading) my townlist is DX, KJ, and Krazy. Everyone I didn't mention I'm either suspicious of or haven't felt warm and fuzzy about from the beginning of the game. I'm also inclined to believe at this point that Klazam is town, in spite of decrying his actions regarding Whiskers d1...his behavior hasn't been scummy since then, and while he never really answered my suspicions (he went V/LA, IIRC,) his actions so far today have rang town to me.

What I notice here is his listing as KJ as one of his top three town, and also me.

Let's look just a few iso posts earlier:

Judging from how he's been soft-defending CSL while simultaneously discrediting TF's defense of himself, I'd say we've got our first scum-team in CSL and Krazy. Obviously this will change if CSL doesn't flip scum (if that's even possible...I don't see how) but I'm pretty confident about this. CSL and Krazy are scum. Probably together.

Now, admittedly, it's not totally unreasonable that his view of me as scum would change after CSL flipped town. But, on the other hand, this reveals that VE's read on me in this post that he "pretty confident" about was never based on anything other than an associative tell. What this suggests is opportunism, not on me, but on CSL: he wanted CSL lynched that day, to control the lynch, and he was willing to temporarily list me as scum to make it happen. After that, he goes back to buddying me hoping that I will never lynch him (a mentality that fits perfectly with rationale to perform a no-kill on one night).

Now let's also look a few posts after the one where he lists KJ as town:

Told ya the scum would jump at me

I bet Krazy's team killed smarg for this exact play right here, "Oh look smarg died, so KJ is scum!

"

It's not really a prediction when you were my top suspect and my vote at the end of yesterday, kj, nice attempt to poison the well though.

THIS. I've reread d3, and Krazy was very obviously suspicious of KJ all day. Pushed for his lynch right up to the lynch of TF. He HAD to know that Krazy would instavote him, and the fact that he opens with a 'gambit' to 'trap' scum who would be 'eager to quicklynch' seems convenient. And then what? He even inserts his own

WIFOM

!

My guess is that HIS team killed smarg with this particular play in mind. That they killed smargo with the intention to trap Krazy SPECIFICALLY, based wholly on this interaction. I could be way off, but this whole situation is WAY too convenient.

I'm confident enough to...
VOTE: killerjester
...to death.

So let's review:

Out of VE's town list, he was "pretty confident" one was scum the day before, and the day after he votes to lynch the other one. Meanwhile, other players that he did not put on his townlist (Klazam, Cirno), he kind of dances around. This is extremely suspicious in every conceivable way:

-It suggests he had an agenda with either Klazam or Cirno
-It shows that he is not committed to his reads and is willing to join opportunistic wagons that contradict things he has said previously
-It points toward a VE/Klazam or a VE/Cirno scumteam.

The thing is, I agree that he was alluding to the fact that he's on a 2 man scum team, but nothing in his quotes do I see evidence of him referencing that he was NOT Reab's partner, OR that he WAS Reab's partner. Even if he was talking about being on Reab's team he would STILL say 'us' even if Reab was dead in that context, because both team members will win if one wins.

And in fact, gambiting is TOTALLY part of KJ's town meta.

VOTE: Klazam

You know what this post lacks?

Reasoning for why Klazam is scum. This could be either:
A) Distancing
or B) Opportunism
I'm not entirely sure right now, but either way it is anti-town.

IV Conclusion: We should lynch VE Today

A) VE is individually scum. His reads suggest an agenda: he has danced around both Cirno and Klazam when not under pressure, and his "town reads" he's willing to lynch when it suits his purposes, at the drop of a hat. He is opportunistic scum.

B) VE is associatively scum. He is almost certainly partners with Klazam or Cirno, but unfortunately I think he might have set both up to make it difficult to tell which is his partner. I am more confident in VE scum (as I have been from D1) than I am in Cirno or in Klazam.

C) VE, based on the way he plays up the doc save (and if he was partners with Cirno or Klazam) had an extremely good reason to no-kill (being 'not ice mafia' in situations that matter and were likely to occur, ie today); in any case, I am no longer convinced that VE was 'saved' the night Smarg died.

D) VE is certainly not partners with Reab, and is the only player I can say that for with absolute confidence.

E) VE is Ice Mafia. We must lynch Ice Mafia today, and he is the only one that I can confidently say is Ice Mafia.

I would vote VE now but since no one else has been saying anything like this I'd like to hear some feedback.

[Krazy]

That level of humor seemed to come from a natural reaction when I directed Reab's partner to shoot Cirno.

He writes off the entire thing as a joke but you can see how he thinks there

is

a possibility of Reab's partner shooting him, and uses #983 to convince the fire Partner otherwise. I believe if he was Reab's partner, he wouldn't have had the same reaction because obviously he wouldn't be worried about shooting himself. Even if you don't buy into Krazy's huge wallpost (yeah, I don't so sue me) I think Cirno is truly the best target for today.

I'm not so sure, KJ. I think he would have a similar reaction if he was Reab's partner and the town was directing the Ice Mafia to shoot him. That actually makes more sense to me than him being Ice Mafia and worried about Fire Mafia shooting him, because if he was, then why the humorous reaction at all? He would still have his partner to carry him through. The humor seems more desperate, like: "If I die tonight we (Reab and himself) are out." Having no method via reason to deflect the kill off himself, he used humor. I don't really follow you on why he would not do this as Fire Maf.

Who we really need here is David. Cirno might be Ice Maf or he might not, but any wagon on Ice Maf almost certainly has to include David on it (6 players, 4 to lynch, 2 ice maf, and David is our conf. clear).

Still, I've seen nothing to shake my decision to do this so far:

Vote VE

[Krazy]

So you're saying that VE CAN be Fire Maf? Ignoring my mistake with MJP's vote d1, you're saying that VE bussed Reab yesterday over you? Second, are you saying that a scum VE would defend 'pretty hard' his partner on d1?

As for the crosskill after CSL's death:
a) We don't actually know it was a cross-kill that night; it actually could have been a doc save + no kill.
b) If there was a cross-kill when CSL died, it doesn't change the appeal of a no-kill the night after.

Which parts of his response were decent? Most of what I saw was "no" with very little in the way of substantive reasons. Your response for him here actually is more provocative. You seem to be pretty clearly defending VE and pushing Cirno over him, when really I see no reason at all that Cirno can't be fire mafia. His post at the end of yesterday was a flippant response to people directing a night kill at him, I don't see how that suggests alignment in any way whatsoever, and your attempt to suggest it does is at this point scummy (but hey, KJ being scummy, that's nothing new--now it's just scummy in an Ice Maf way).

I'm starting to wonder if I was mistaken on a VE/Klazam or VE/Cirno scumteam and we're not looking at VE/KJ going for a lynch on fire mafia in Cirno. Going to have to think about these developments.

[Krazy]

I know you being on VE's scumteam complicates my case, but it's not impossible, only unlikely. I suppose a VE/Cirno scumteam is still possible if you're just really, really tunneling town, and Klazam is the fire maf, or if you are the fire maf, it's VE/Klazam, and Cirno is VT, or whatever. As for the no-kill night, that could have been for a couple of reasons, and I think you're now trying to play it up as much as possible.

As for a Cirno/VE scumteam being impossible because of D4... uhm, no it's not. They might have hammered you or they might have hammered the person that actually got hammered, in any case either way it wasn't on them now was it?

You're either going back into tunnelvision or you're getting desperate, KJ. Either way this "VE/Cirno is impossible!" is weaksauce.

WIFOM rapidly going OVER 9000!

[Krazy]

Hmm, not sure whether it's fire maf siding with the ice maf here or just a confused VT.

David, I'm really starting to wonder about the possibilities of teams no-killing earlier in the game combined with doc saves, did you say who you saved the two nights there were no-kills at all?

[Krazy]

Sorry I forgot to include my sarcasm tags on the comment above.

Anyway let's pretend you're fire mafia. Or, better yet, let's say for all intensive purposes that you're the other VT. Why are you

so

damn convinced Cirno is not ice scum?

Your entire KJ/VE case falls apart unless you honestly believe VE assumed that DavidX would save just him, as he openly stated that I was not going to be saved at all. In the absence of that, the ice mafia targeted VE that night ergo VE is not ice mafia.

I'm convinced Cirno is not Ice Scum because I don't see who his partner is, with the way you and VE are pushing on him non-stop, that gives me the impression that you both have an agenda to lynch him over anyone else for reasons I don't understand which I take to be scummy. Seriously, Klazam claimed scum yesterday, and yet you are fully convinced that Cirno is Ice Maf because he made a flippant post in response to random BS. When I read the thread I see all four of you as scum and I can't actually figure out who the other damn VT is. All I can say is I don't think everyone would be coming down so uniformly on Cirno if he really was Ice Maf. Not in the game where VTs were lynched a million days in a row. Sorry. Klazam is scummy (read: claimed scum) but he could be fire maf. Cirno is scummy but he could be fire maf, especially with the way you and VE are pushing on him so damn hard. You've been scummy the whole damn game. The only person here I don't think is Ice Maf is the one you and VE seem 100% convinced cannot possibly be Ice Maf due to a presumed doc save. Honestly I don't care what the reasons are, for all I know he forgot to send in the stupid night kill, but 'doc save' be damned, VE is Ice Maf, and there's no way I'm backing down on that in a game-ending situation if Cirno turns out to be Fire Maf.

[Krazy]

I cannot type today. EBWOP "I do think is" rather than "I don't think is." TOO MANY MAF.

[Krazy]

on one hand- KJ and VE defends each other throughout the game,

On the other- that failed kill on VE....

I'm gonna say that VE is not ice by virtue of that failkill. A no kill is extremely unlikely, given that there was a truly small chance of DX protecting Ice Scum, which is the only case in which benefits the ice scum.

This leaves me with a 2/3 chance of finding the ice scum.

Krazy-KJ seems impossible
KJ-Cirno seems impossible
Cirno-Krazy is the only ice scum pairing that makes sense here.

HM.

This reasoning is exactly why a no-kill makes sense, by the way.

[Krazy]

Hurry up and lynch the fire maf so I can seal the deal.

ftfy.

[Krazy]

So... a no-kill KJ/VE team makes sense because it's unlikely.

YES.

FOCUS GUYS.

FOCUS.

[Krazy]

RE: KJ/VE- And IF they nokilled and DX targeted somebody else, it would have backfired. This is why i want to know if DX ever tried to hint that he would protect VE. This would clear things up, I believe.

Define backfire--in this setup, if they no-killed, that would also mean there was no risk of them 'doccing' a player in a cross-kill with the other team. In a no-kill, they would be giving the doctor a chance to save them, and also giving the opposing faction less information, which might be just as good.

You don't find it suspicious at all that there was a 'doc save' or a 'cross-kill' almost every single day?

Krazy- Do you think KJ is scum? If so, WHY?

The way KJ is siding with VE and pushing on Cirno over you has me very concerned; he's offering reasons that he thinks Cirno can't be fire mafia for reasons that I quite frankly think are ridiculous. That being said, his reads this game have been wildly erratic, and he could be simply tunneling town. Or he could be on to something and Cirno really could be Ice Mafia with VE.

As it is, I think his reasons for voting Cirno are terrible, and it certainly isn't impossible that he's Ice Mafia with VE. He is trying really hard to push this wagon on Cirno that I find concerning, and the way he's doing it has me wondering if there isn't an agenda behind it. He may very well want the lynch today to 'appear obvious' so that he can go for a game-ending win. But it's not like it's impossible he isn't just a really stubborn/reactionary VT. He also seems to really want to present the idea of a KJ/VE team as ludicrous, when he's really just using the mysterious 'save' on VE as the only reason that's unlikely, which I am starting to take to be scummy.

[Krazy]

Input from David would be good.

[Krazy]

Because David is clear and any wagon without him in this situation is pretty much by definition a bad wagon.

[Krazy]

Cirno, if KJ and VE are both equally scum to you, why did you choose to vote KJ rather than VE? Are you more certain in KJ scum?

[Krazy]

Again, why are we pretending it's likely the KJ/VE "ice team" no killed on the night David saved VE when we already know he wasn't going to doc me?

Why are you so convinced that you're the only one I'm considering as VE's partner?

[Krazy]

Krazy- are you opposed to an kj lynch, then?

Is KJ's name VE?

[Krazy]

And VE/Klazam didn't make much sense either, because I feel VE came out too strong at the beginning of D5 attacking Klazam.

KJ basically says that "VE/Klazam doesn't make sense" because of what I take to be either opportunism or some of the weakest bussing I've seen. VE on Klazam at the start of D5 isn't 'strong' at all, let alone 'too strong' to be a chainsaw.

I explained this like a million years ago, but again: VE makes the most sense as partners with Klazam or with Cirno. Based on the way the votes played out, I was thinking Cirno was more likely to be fire maf based on the way VE was pushing hard and Klazam was sort of fence-sitting basically waiting for someone to put him at L-1 so he could game-ending hammer.

But I'm not even really willing to rule out killerjester at this point, even though the nightkill makes it the least appealing of the three scenarios, and also I sort of see him as fire maf, but generally I just have no idea what to make of that slot because I'm starting to just find him irritating one way or the other and no longer really interested in sorting out whether he's town, fire maf, or ice maf. If he's town, we pretty much lost, but if he's fire maf, I have no idea why he's playing along with VE and Klazam/Cirno, and so that sort of leads Ice Maf as a nice possibility mostly based on the way he actively defends VE. But since I generally just have no idea what to make of this slot anymore, I'd rather not lynch it today.

VE+Klazam > VE+Cirno ~ VE+KJ.

I'm also wondering if Klazam liked my case as long as he needed to in case a wagon developed on VE and then dropped it when he realized it implicated both himself and VE because KJ was clearly so deep in his tunnel he was never getting out.

There's also KJ + Klazam I suppose, I seem to remember something that made me not like that scenario too much but I can't recall it right now. I think it's because that would make Cirno the most likely to be Fire Maf, which would in turn make VE the other VT, which is impossible because VE is mafia as fuck.

[Krazy]

I think that my fakeclaim gambit would give you pretty important information towards this end.

If your implication here is that by claiming mafia that I will think you are not mafia, you are mistaken.

[Krazy]

I think it's interesting that Klazam is willing to be 'so paranoid' as to consider a KJ + Krazy scumteam but 'so skeptical' that VE no-killing is impossible.

[Krazy]

You know what, Klazam makes sense with Cirno as well.

So between the following pairs:

Klazam + VE
Klazam + Cirno

vs.

VE + Klazam
VE + KJ

VE + KJ is strictly speaking more problematic than Klazam + Cirno, which his most recent play seems to really support.

Unvote; Vote Klazam

I'm starting to feel really good about Klazam + VE.

[Krazy]

That would only be true if Cirno were here, and even then, not guaranteed. I've seen scum wait multiple weeks before hammering and suggesting that they wouldn't just because an opportunity presented itself is pure WIFOM.

[Krazy]

Nah they both posted in #1074 and #1077 after VE and myself both voted for you.

It's generally considered bad form to not hammer at the first opportunity if you're scum. Otherwise you're just toying with Townies who have already lost.

That doesn't change the fact that unless they are both online at the same time and can create a dynamic of "we're here and ready to hammer" that they might hold off on the risk that town will unvote upon them voting.

Poor form or not, it happens, and fairly often at that, sometimes for days or weeks at a time.

[Krazy]

Yes yes, sorry. My bad. I prefer a Krazy or Cirno lynch for my part. DX, what's your take on the KJ vs Krazy debate that rages? They're arguing from what appears to be separate factions, that's all I see though. Not who is what faction, or whether one is town or not. I believe Krazy to be on the Ice team however, because of how sure he sounds that I'M from the Ice team. It stinks.

I'm sure that a) you're scum and that b) you weren't partners with Reab, with those two things in mind it bears to reason that you are Ice Mafia.

[Krazy]

And for that matter, you can only SUSPECT that I'm not partners with Reab too...your whole nonsense 'case' against me is WIFOM, and you know it.

Are you scared of my case such that you need to downplay it? And you're saying you

can

be partners with Reab, and as such yesterday you jumped on his wagon over KJ? I find that hard to believe, but apparently you need to assert that my entire case against you is 'wifom'. Et tu, VE?

As for knowing you're scum, I've 'known' it since day 1 when I saw your AtE, the issue has simply been convincing others of the matter.

[Krazy]

umad?

[Krazy]

Are you scared of my case such that you need to downplay it? And you're saying you

can

be partners with Reab, and as such yesterday you jumped on his wagon over KJ?

Reminder: He "voted me... to the death"

The point here is that ultimately he went on the wagon that lynched Fire Maf, aka "his partner" if he was fire maf, over an equally available wagon in you. He had already voted you 'to the death' -- so why would he get off that, when a hammer on you didn't seem all that unlikely, and instead go for a bus on his partner? I just don't see scum partners doing that.

[Krazy]

Reason why?

for a bus on his partner

Oh look, answered your own question. Reab was clearly going down after that terribad unvote on me, and I really don't have an issue with VE bussing Reab.

You can say the unvote was terribad, but I think a lynch was anything but sure on him.

[Krazy]

It was a sinking ship. VE simply got off. It certainly makes more sense than the part where you suggested Cirno could be fire mafia and he STARTED the Reab wagon.

The thing is, Cirno sort of sat on Reab for a really long time, and he never really provided very good reasons. It could be opportunism, but it could just as easily have been distancing. He was riding it through a lot of the game when there was never any momentum, so when a wagon actually did develop, I can see him not wanting to get off as that would undo the value of his earlier distancing and also probably come off as suspicious. I can more easily see Cirno as Reab's partner than I can VE.

[Krazy]

The reasons aren't the same though. It would be very suspicious for Cirno to turn around and unvote VE when he's been on him the entire game, whereas with VE he could have very easily stayed off since he was responding to new developments that could have been interpreted one way or another.

[Krazy]

Alright, 'just day 4' if you want, but voting Reab was his only two posts over the course of like 9 days. In terms of 'time-based interest in the slot' he'd been interested in voting Reab for weeks of the game.

[Krazy]

That still doesn't change how he could've interpreted the events to his pleasing, and could've put me at L-1 instead of starting a new wagon on his "partner" - of all people! Without any previous opinion of Reab from pre-D4 I really don't see him turning around to get his partner lynched. And I really don't see how you do.

You're saying he should have been pointless opportunistic, but the thing is, when Cirno 'started that wagon' it wasn't going to go anywhere, it was more distancing. It only BECAME a wagon WEEKS after Cirno started it, when Reab started unvoting and doing ridiculous things that made no sense. When Cirno started it, it was a way to safely distance, and when it later became a real wagon, it would have been extremely suspicious for him to get off it.

[Krazy]

The possibility of wagons catching on is the primary reason why scum don't start wagons on buddies.

And 9 days is just over one week. So don't go CAPS LOCK on WEEKS like it's multiple weeks. Especially when 7 of those 9 days were night time.

But it didn't catch on. The wagon that formed on Reab had nothing to do with any of Cirno's reasons or anything to do with his pressure. He just happened to be already on it when Reab started doing things that the rest of the town actually found suspicious.

[Krazy]

Are you Gayle?

[Krazy]

And I'm not getting why you're posting your scum meta. Are you admitting to being Reab's fire scumbuddy?

[Krazy]

Krazy is scum. Everyone should vote for Krazy to die because he's Ice Mafia and he's gotta DIE!!!!

Does him voting me to death make me his scum-buddy, KJ? After all, he could just as easily be voting Cirno, but let's face it, given the choices between someone who is his partner and someone who isn't his partner, he's definitely gonna be voting the person who is his partner... right?

(for those of you who can't keep up with the frenetic pace of my sarcasm: VE is scum and he wasn't partners with Reab. Do the math)

[Krazy]

I'm not. Fucking. Ice.

I reacted to your gambit to keep the doctor alive.

Why are you throwing logic out the window?

Because he's Ice Maf with VE, he senses that David is starting to put pressure on VE, so he has to save his scumbuddy VE by pushing David back on to his earlier preferred lynch, aka you.

This shit is textbook.

[Krazy]

Klazam, what it comes down to is, I'm fairly certain that VE is Ice Mafia, but a lot of people seem vehemently opposed to lynching him, so I'm left with trying to find his partner, either one of whom I'm slightly less certain of. Of the available candidates after VE, you're my best bet for his partner.

There's nothing in either of your Isos that really says "no way these two are partners" and, partly, I find a pairing of you two elegant because despite how active both of you have been, very little of your interaction has been directed at each other. Also your play today, letting VE push on various wagons while you sort of camp could make sense; basically, like before, you're waiting to control the hammer. I can see you doing this as scum.

I guess a big part of it comes down to why we would see VE's team no-killing the night that TF was lynched and we woke to Smarg's death.

So basically we have a 6-day period here, from Sep. 15-21.

The scenario that is the easiest to believe is that VE intentionally no-killed because he believed that either he or himself would be docced and be 'set' for the rest of the game. As far as this goes, you + VE makes the most sense since I can see David doccing either one of you that night, whereas it's harder to see that for KJ.

However, that's only the most likely scenario.

There's the slightly less likely scenario where VE's team intentionally no-killed, but were not counting on a doc save, but rather on the WIFOM produced from a no-kill. Since they might have saw it as a good night to do it, considering how many cross-kills there had been. In this scenario, pretty much any scum-team is imaginable, since KJ was unlikely to be night-killed, and VE wasn't unlikely to be docced, so really they in this regard would not strictly speaking need to count on KJ as a candidate for the doc save. Still, with a second scum-team out there, I'm sort of resistant to support this read.

However, if we open up the possibility of an UNINTENTIONAL no-kill, then KJ + VE might conceivably become my preferred team (would need to think about this more).

Unintentional night-kills aren't unheard of; after all, town can unintentionally no-lynch if a timer runs out. They happen in marathon games at least. All that really is required is that, for whatever reason (out of town, arguing with their scumbuddy, simple forgetfulness) they failed to send in the nightkill. Hey, considering how KC kept delaying breaking day, it's possible the mod was 'waiting' or whatever for the scum to make up their mind. But this is all conjecture. All that it comes down to is imagining that the scum, for whatever reason, didn't really mean to no-kill.

Again, in this scenario, I could imagine either a VE + KJ or a VE + Klazam scumteam.

So if I ignore the differing probabilities of the different scenarios, then both of you almost equally likely candidates for being his partner. But, if I'm ignoring the differing probabilities, and just putting the no-kill and whatever reason it happened out of my mind, then it only makes sense to go back to voting VE.

The thing is I'm not entirely sure I can do that, and as I said, I just see no reason that you can't be VE's partner, or for that matter, Cirno or KJ's. There's literally no one in this game that, off-hand, I would be willing to axiomatically rule out as you being scum with. So you make a lot of sense as today's lynch, even though, individually, you're not as scummy as VE is (obviously).

[Krazy]

So here's what I'm seeing.

VE's accusations against me today have been absolutely terrible and utterly unconvincing.

Yet, until his case on me today, VE's play was getting better throughout the game. He hasn't been anywhere near this ridiculous until making the case on me today since day 1.

Now he's struggling to mount a case against me after like half a week.

These three data points suggests one thing to me: VE, quite frankly, knows I am town. He doesn't actually want to lynch me. There is only one reason that someone would fabricate an ice scum team in this game, and that is if they are ice scum and need to somehow direct the lynch onto fire. This just screams to me that Cirno is the fire mafia, and that VE is basically nudging at me hoping that people will see his case as terrible and revert back to Cirno as the default lynch for today.

I'm increasingly unsure again of who his partner is. Now KJ is selectively reading (ignoring my 1164 altogether) and trying to push the wagon back onto Cirno. However, Klazam still, strictly speaking, makes more sense as VE's partner, especially in regard to the nightkill. Play previous to day 1 indicates Klazam, all the play today indicates KJ, and it's really just exasperating to figure this out.

I'm going back to this:

Unvote, vote VE

I'm sure VE will 'make his grand case' now.

[Krazy]

Cirno, so basically, you're saying VE bussed Reab yesterday when he could just as easily have lynched KJ instead?

As for me and KJ being a scumteam, lolnope.

[Krazy]

Therefore the statement "VE could just as easily have lynched KJ instead" is false. Hence VE bussed.

You dudes keep making me look back in the thread but you are only making my conviction stronger by doing so.

Okay, but if you've been paying attention to this game's flow, a lot of scummy people were pushed to L-1 or whatever and gotten off. People left and right said and did things this game that were ridiculous. So with Reab already at L-2, and Klazam being MC-HAMMER, VE bussing at this point in time was basically saying "You will die immediately;" if he had stalled at all, someone else might have said something stupid and Reab might have walked. This was a very aggressive bus and honestly I just don't see it from VE. He's been willing to defend people in the hot seat this game and doesn't always push what otherwise would be the most popular wagon. It makes no sense for him to bus his buddy in such a critical situation so quickly.

[Krazy]

David, is there any chance you would consider VE?

[Krazy]

Congratulations! Everyone loses.

Vote Cirno

Yep, he's my partner.

Tonight, VE, you will kill David and I will no-kill.

Why am I busing my partner and revealing the fire mafia?

Because VE knows that it's me and Cirno, as he has known the entire day, since we've had two crosskills, one on Klazam from the way-back machine and one on KJ last night.

So, I pretty much have to play for a happily-ever-after at this point since there's really no reason that VE would not be shooting us tonight, unless he too needed to play for a happily-ever-after.

So here's what happens now:

VE accepts the happily ever after, he kills David tonight, and then he adds "VOTE HAPPILY EVER AFTER."

Then tomorrow we all no lynch and "VOTE HAPPILY EVER AFTER."

And then the game is over. As it should have been for like weeks now, since it's not really mafia when we spend entire days knowing every single role in the game.

Never playing with this 'cross-kill = no kill' nonsense again. Stupidest mechanic I have ever seen.

Oh and if you're wondering:

VE can't kill me because then he's lynched tomorrow.

VE can't no-kill because then he's lynched tomorrow.

VE can't kill Klazam or KJ because David might protect them.

The end.

[Krazy]

And conversely:

-I can't kill VE because then I'm lynched tomorrow.

-I can't kill David because then he'd be saved and I'd be lynched tomorrow (since I'm telling VE to kill him).

-I can't kill Klazam or KJ because then we'd enter a stupid 1-1-1 which would just belabor this abomination of a game.

-QED I have to no-kill.

[Krazy]

Yeah no way would I kill, game is stupid enough already, a 1-1-1 would just be giving a townie the option to decide which scumteam he wants to win.

[Krazy]

What a shocking turn of events!

Not really.

Vote No Lynch

Vote Happily Ever After

I don't really see why this game would need to go through more than one day/night cycle like this, all we need to establish is that VE doesn't want to try his luck with a 1-1-1.

[Krazy]

Presumable result of 1-1-1: town no-lynches (only thing that isn't a gamethrow), scum lynch town (only thing other than lynching each other that isn't a gamethrow), both scum are left 1v1 at the end = double nightkill = everyone loses. I think most would call this a loss, not a draw, even if it is "sort of" a draw.

2-1-1: everyone stays alive, also lulz it's a happily ever after, game ending is debateable, some call it a loss, some call it a draw, I personally call it "nothing" since the game, technically, isn't over, but closer to a draw than anything else.

Only reason VE would nightkill is if town PWOMISES HIM that they'll vote me tomorrow, which they shouldn't do, since if you noticed, town ends up getting lynched tomorrow anyway and definitely loses, and in any case town still doesn't win even if he does nightkill, and certainly doesn't win if they lynch me (since he then kills them).

So yes, basically everyone knows it's a Happily Ever After because VE really has no reason to night-kill town, and all we need to do is cycle through day/nights as "quickly" as possible until we establish the game is over to the mod's satisfaction.

[Krazy]

DONT MIND ME, JUST BEING RIGHT ABOUT KRAZY AND CIRNO FOR THE ENTIRE GAME

I was also right about VE through the whole game.

Well, except the part where I had to FIND A REASON for him to be Ice mafia in particular.

But in any case....


HAPPILY EVER AFTER

How often do you see THAT in an open game?

[Krazy]

I like that your case on me was for opportunistically voting the opposing scum team.

And yeah, F&I mafia needs to lose the cross-kills = no-kill nonsense, as without that this could not have been a happily ever after and it also dragged the game on longer than it should have. It also rewarded town for being anti-town, in the case of your fake-claims.

The scum fake-claims weren't even the first dramatically anti-town action, or the last. There's also KJ's self-vote and Klazam's participation in the terribad speedwagon on Whiskers.

[Krazy]

I still don't get what the hell was with Reab's response to your 888 or why in the flying hell he got off that wagon at the most terrible moment ever. Your whole exchange that day was more why I targeted you that night, not so much the fake-claim anyway. I thought "jesus Reab + KJ is the most obvious bus ever..." lolnope.

[Krazy]

Yeah sorry, I meant both teams targeting the same person. For some reason I keep thinking that's a cross-kill. I'm so silly!