Newbie 1779 | Spring | Endgame

[-Grey-]

I skimmed 1775 and read rc's logic there, plus saw the results of the game - lynched the two scum on days 1 and 2. Quick town win. Pretty impressive. So I'm inclined to do as rc has requested - not claim (or claim as the case might be) - but would like to see the other two experienced players' take on doing so first. No harm in waiting a little for their points of view and reading any counter arguments if there are any.

The only valid argument on this issue is the one our IC presented in 16.

When it comes to Mafia theory, only the IC can be trusted to give honest advice. Even a Scum IC cannot lie about optimal play.

That said, I'm going to claim

not bulletproof

and ask you to stop stalling on your claim.

[-Grey-]

Herp. Derp.

[-Grey-]

The IC is required to lie to the town as scum. She should not lie about good play principles and such but lying about how a claim order would optimally be done is absolutely fair game.

Lying about theory is against IC guidelines regardless of their alignment and you damned well know this.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

[-Grey-]

Have you two (rc and grey) played together before? Looks like bad blood from outside this game.

Bad blood? Nah.

At least, I'm not aware of any.

[-Grey-]

I'm not quite sure what your thoguht process that lead you to that post was but I don't like it and I think you might be overblowing the difference because scum.

No, you explicitly stated the IC can lie about theory when YOU KNOW DAMNED WELL THAT IS FALSE.

Did you seriously think I wasn't going to call you out on your bullshit?

[-Grey-]

This push on me feels really fake tbh.

No, you're just trying to discredit me.

Ethics:
It is important to remember that playing as an IC you take on two completely different roles. You take on the role that the mod PMs you, but you also take on the role of an IC in the game. When you take game actions, you should ask yourself "am I acting as an IC or as a (insert role here) right now".

While it is okay to lie as scum, it is NEVER okay to lie in your role as an IC. Never lie about game theory to get a tactical advantage.

When you are acting as an IC, try to be as helpful and honest as possible, but when you are acting as scum, be as deceptive as possible. It's a tough thing to juggle, but it's worth it.

Your primary role as an IC is to teach good gameplay.

[-Grey-]

This push on me feels really fake tbh.

it does feel like a mountain made out of a molehill, but what do you think scum!grey benefits from doing it? discrediting your influence maybe?

Catching RC out in a blatant lie is no molehill.

[-Grey-]

This push on me feels really fake tbh.

No, you're just trying to discredit me.

Ethics:
It is important to remember that playing as an IC you take on two completely different roles. You take on the role that the mod PMs you, but you also take on the role of an IC in the game. When you take game actions, you should ask yourself "am I acting as an IC or as a (insert role here) right now".

While it is okay to lie as scum, it is NEVER okay to lie in your role as an IC. Never lie about game theory to get a tactical advantage.

When you are acting as an IC, try to be as helpful and honest as possible, but when you are acting as scum, be as deceptive as possible. It's a tough thing to juggle, but it's worth it.

Your primary role as an IC is to teach good gameplay.

[-Grey-]

There is no Grey area there.

[-Grey-]

I'm a night-owl living in PST.

Hello timezone neighbor!

[-Grey-]

@mastina
are you suggesting oldwino's vote was merely an OMGUS? and if so, is that necessarily a scum read?

If OMGUS is the gold standard of scumtells, that's all the more reason to lynch RC.

[-Grey-]

I townread DogWatch.

I don't.

Right now my readslist would be:
RadiantCowbells
JustDanceWorld
Ulti
Grey
mhsmith0
aa-dono
DogWatch
oldwino

I'll admit I have fewer townreads than I would like, and they are of a lesser strength than I would prefer. But off of what I have so far, my scumteam callout would actually be oldwino-DogWatch.

How is it that two players that haven't even posted yet are above null?

[-Grey-]

Grey is nulltown, so not strongly town.

Yet two players that haven't posted are higher than I am in your list.

Why?

[-Grey-]

Rude.

[-Grey-]

Everybody not on RC or I is wasting their vote on a vanity wagon.

Lynch scum. Lynch RadiantCowbells.

This message brought to you by the

Make Town Great Again

foundation.

[-Grey-]

Why is everyone's role displayed below their name? Doesn't that make this game really easy for town to win?

Does it?

If that's true, why is Mafia Scum mastina voting Goon oldwino?

[-Grey-]

Why is everyone's role displayed below their name? Doesn't that make this game really easy for town to win?

Those are just forum user ranks based on post count, not our roles.

Spoilsport.

[-Grey-]

Why is everyone's role displayed below their name? Doesn't that make this game really easy for town to win?

Those are just forum user ranks based on post count, not our roles.

Spoilsport.

Why needlessly confuse a new player?

I wanted to know why he'd think scum would be voting scum.

[-Grey-]

ok, because you thought that might give us some info about how he views mafia strategy? Or because you thought it was humorous?

The two aren't mutually excursive.

[-Grey-]

Also not understanding how two people with zero posts could look more town to her than a player she reads as null. She says they have a higher chance of being town, but how? Is that just a cheeky comment?

It's not cheek, it's mastina.

I could totally see her saying that with complete conviction as town.

[-Grey-]

Interesting.

[-Grey-]

Aww. I am sketched out by Mastina too tbh. she feels weird.

What sketches you out about her? How does she feel weird?

Of all of us in this game, I'd imagine you would be most familiar with her play. How is it off?

[-Grey-]

Y would i be familiar with her play i've played like 3 games with her

Then how does something feel off about her play, if you aren't familiar with it?

[-Grey-]

Dude what

[-Grey-]

[-Grey-]

@mastina
are you suggesting oldwino's vote was merely an OMGUS? and if so, is that necessarily a scum read?

If OMGUS is the gold standard of scumtells, that's all the more reason to lynch RC.

OMGUS is the shit standard of scumtells. OMGUS is natural and normal for town, especially town who feel like the push on them is bullshit (and you of all people should should be cautious of scumreading RC for OMGUS'ing you, unless I'm just totally misremembering how things went between you two in 1770). A newbie player engaging in it MIGHT be a bit of a town lean for it, and an experienced player engaging in it is basically null for the exercise for the most part.

How could you not tell I was being sarcastic?

[-Grey-]

How could you not tell I was being sarcastic?

Well given that it happened in the context of you voting and pushing RC, I don't especially see why it should be considered obvious sarcasm. emoticons are also helpful if you want to make sure everyone understands when you're being sarcastic as well.

My post wasn't about RC, RC was incidental.

The post was about scumtells.

[-Grey-]

My post wasn't about RC, RC was incidental.

The post was about scumtells.

And in today's lesson, we discover that sarcasm is often difficult to detect through text on the internet

Not if that text is taken in context.

[-Grey-]

Not if that text is taken in context.

It looked like the context was your overall push on RC (consistent with posts previous and subsequent), in which case it looked like an attempt to push more votes that way. In the context of that reasonable interpretation of what was going on, what exactly is the issue w my response? Is it just that you don't understand why i didn't see your sarcasm?

The content of my post was entirely about the legitimacy of the tell in question.

There was no actual push in that post, outside of the anecdotal evidence that RC OMGUSed me and should enjoy more votes if one believed such a thing to be indicative of scum.

I'm picking at this because I believe you are a player that pays attention to details and would not miss out on the subtle difference between trolling a godawful scumtell assumption and campaigning for a lynch using said godawful scumtell.

[-Grey-]

(Anyone that reads that post as being remotely serious needs a colonic)

[-Grey-]

On second thought, I'll take one too.

[-Grey-]

Now, that's not necessarily contradictory; she could be viewing RC vs Grey as town vs town, but how she's gleaming scum reads from the sidelines I don't know.

The only way scum couldn't be on the sidelines is if Smith and I are both scum.

If either, or both, of us are town, it is easy to come to the conclusion that scum could be fueling the flames.

[-Grey-]

Page



Bottom

[-Grey-]

I'm rather surprised at your Smith read.

He seems town to me, and I look forward to your explanation on that.

[-Grey-]

Dogwatch changed her avatar to look more innocent.

Such a scum tactic.

[-Grey-]

Dogwatch changed her avatar to look more innocent.

Such a scum tactic.

surely you jest

I'm surprised you didn't say "THAT'S A PICTURE OF A CAT. HER NAME IS DOG. LYNCH HER."

Cheeky scum is cheeky!

[-Grey-]

Too many walls of fluff. -_-

Something needs to happen.

VOTE: -Grey-

OMG, I self-voted! How scummy is that?!

[-Grey-]

mine?

All yours!

[-Grey-]

Too many walls of fluff. -_-

Something needs to happen.

VOTE: -Grey-

OMG, I self-voted! How scummy is that?!

So, it's my second game, anywhere, ever, and in my first game a newbie asked about self-voting and was told that that's very scummy, almost 100% scummy, because it can't do town any good at all. So I'll assume you are one of the two scum until you at least argue to the contrary. If you are town, couldn't you unfluff the game in a more productive way? How is self-voting supposed to stimulate discussion and especially scum hunting?

If I'm scum, why aren't you voting me?

If I'm scum, what do I hope to accomplish by voting myself when I am not under pressure?

[-Grey-]

@-Grey- what do you think of oldwino or DogWatch?

Might be more productive to wait until my interaction with oldwino to end before asking me about my opinion on him.

[-Grey-]

@-Grey- what do you think of oldwino or DogWatch?

Might be more productive to wait until my interaction with oldwino to end before asking me about my opinion on him.

Ok...

If I'm scum, what do I hope to accomplish by voting myself when I am not under pressure?

Isn't it the best time to vote yourself when you're not under pressure?
Makes you look like you're not afraid of pressure, which is supposed to be a town trait.


[Going to sleep - I'm sorry my timezone is gekk (can't think of the right vocab) ]

VOTE: aa-domo

Why are you determined to interfere in my interactions with oldwino?

[-Grey-]

If I'm leaning scum on you, it's because I think you're misrepresenting RC's posts, trying to make her look scummy when overall, I think she's leaning town.

You're not one to call me out for misrepresenting someone when you yourself are misrepping his gender.

[-Grey-]

After some thought, I think you are either trying to stimulate some discussion, which you are doing with me, or as aa noted, or maybe to deflect suspicion of yourself because you are not under any pressure right now. Or, maybe, you're trying to redirect the discussion to stop the (now pointless, I think) debate between you and RC.

Which is it?

Or do you plan on building a house on that fence you're sitting on?

[-Grey-]

Actively working to defuse the argument is towny behavior (provided it's town-town).

Not entirely true.

Scum also play mediator for towncred.

[-Grey-]

PS In case it's not obvious, that was a big wall post that I broke up into more manageable pieces

My phone loves you for it.

[-Grey-]

Slightly towny response. I can see why he might be voting AA instead of OW here as a reaction, though in a world where OW is scum and AA isn't, I might be a bit suspicious of his making the wrong choice when OW was ALSO a valid reaction vote (generally speaking, I'd think that AA's interference here would only look off if OW flipped scum).

OW is already responding openly to questions without additional pressure.

AA is just being... difficult.

[-Grey-]

After some thought, I think you are either trying to stimulate some discussion, which you are doing with me, or as aa noted, or maybe to deflect suspicion of yourself because you are not under any pressure right now. Or, maybe, you're trying to redirect the discussion to stop the (now pointless, I think) debate between you and RC.

Which is it?

Or do you plan on building a house on that fence you're sitting on?

I might not build a house, but I may camp out on the fence for a while. Why not when I'm not sure? I'm not going to commit to a POV or opinion that is still evolving.

In this case however, I think I was clear, I mostly think you were just trying to generate some discussion, but MAYBE you had other reasons. Just maybe. But mostly think you were just stimulating some discussion.

If I'm not under pressure, what suspicion am I deflecting off of myself?

[-Grey-]

RC and I pretty much always go back and forth with each other until we sort each other out.

[-Grey-]

Have you sorted him out? Town or scum leanings? Town I think, since you changed your vote to AA?

I'm not so naive as to think I can read RC on d1.

[-Grey-]

Our own resident MSocrates, ladies and gentlemen!

[-Grey-]

I'm nurturing a theory that scum is laying low while town gets tied up in NAI quarreling they hope will eventually turn into a mislynch.

I'd prefer to avoid that scenario.

While, yes, it's important to sort players while they're playing and available to be sorted, I don't want to get too heavily invested in any reads until everyone has either established their presence or been replaced by a more active player.

[-Grey-]

Anyone care to guess what they have in common?

They both seem to be coming after you, for one thing.

Does that make them scum together? I'd think it would suggest the opposite.

[-Grey-]

After some thought, I think you are either trying to stimulate some discussion, which you are doing with me, or as aa noted, or maybe to deflect suspicion of yourself because you are not under any pressure right now. Or, maybe, you're trying to redirect the discussion to stop the (now pointless, I think) debate between you and RC.

Which is it?

Or do you plan on building a house on that fence you're sitting on?

I might not build a house, but I may camp out on the fence for a while. Why not when I'm not sure? I'm not going to commit to a POV or opinion that is still evolving.

In this case however, I think I was clear, I mostly think you were just trying to generate some discussion, but MAYBE you had other reasons. Just maybe. But mostly think you were just stimulating some discussion.

See, I like this post.

IME, scum, especially new scum, tend to allow themselves to be boxed into a corner with a little pressure in order to avoid raising suspicion... which bites them in the ass if they forget later on.

OW was not hesitant to maintain his stance, which makes me believe it is more likely to be genuine instead of scum trying to keep their options open.

[-Grey-]

which makes me believe it is more likely to be genuine instead of scum trying to keep their options open.

You and I have very different views of the gamestate, m'friend. Keeping options open is explicitly what oldwino has been doing and is a large part of the problem.

Yes. Explicitly.

Very explicitly.

Blatantly and unapologetically explicitly.

And I townread him for it.

[-Grey-]

MMM RC IS CONFTOWN

[-Grey-]

Spoiler: Player Rules/Voting

1. A simple majority of all living players must agree on one person (via voting) for a Lynch to occur (simple majority = ½ # of living players +1, rounded down). If no one has a simple majority of votes at deadline a No Lynch will occur.
2. Votes should be bolded or they may not be counted (e.g.

Vote: Player

). I much prefer VOTE: Vote Tags. Please use them.
3. Unvotes should be bolded or they may not be counted (e.g.

Unvote: Player or Unvote

). Unvotes are helpful, but not required. I will love you if you use them.
4. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority (as described above) of No Lynch votes will result in a No Lynch and a move to the Night phase.
5. Votes/Unvotes should be placed on a line all by themselves to make them easier for everyone to see. Do this.
6. Votes in quotes, spoiler tags or otherwise hidden will also not be counted.
7. Votes that misspell or have other minor errors will be counted as normal as long as I understand what you are getting at.
8. Once a player has reached a simple majority of votes no further unvoting will change their fate. Tough.
9. When a player is lynched the game enters twilight until the Mod posts a death scene; all players may continue to post.
10. If you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post except for

one

brief “Bah!”-type post that contains that must contain a cute image of a Penguin.

[-Grey-]

VOTE: mastina

Read the rules.

Also, why mastina?

[-Grey-]

Code: Select all

[vote]Name[/vote]

For
VOTE: Name

[-Grey-]

You forgot the slash in the second bracket.

[-Grey-]

mastina,

I get the unmistakeable feeling that you are scumreading both mhsmith0 and oldwino.

This doesn't jibe with me, because mhsmith0 and oldwino are both voting you.

Now if this were, say, aa-domo and oldwino you were scumreading together that were both voting you, I would consider it plausible.

But I don't buy for a second that both members of the scumteam would be voting you together so early in d1 when one of those alleged scum are experienced.

That's besides the fact I have a townread on oldwino. His confidence and candor just feels town.

[-Grey-]

didnt she say she thought 2 scum were already "on her wagon" which I think means voting her?

Don't stop there.

Finish your thought if you're going to start one.

[-Grey-]

didnt she say she thought 2 scum were already "on her wagon" which I think means voting her?

Don't stop there.

Finish your thought if you're going to start one.

She is an experienced player and if she does think 2 scum are voting her then it would make sense for her to be scum reading two people voting her

Your circular logic holds regardless of how experienced she may or may not be.

What are you driving at?

[-Grey-]

Where did you read it? I'm always looking for more information on mafia theory.

[-Grey-]

Awesome, like where?

Shouldn't be hard to provide a link that talks about reading off gut, if you found something in the wiki. I'd like to see what you have found out about the game so far.

[-Grey-]

VOTE: Ulti

Consider it a gut read.

[-Grey-]

Well it's pretty damned rude to interfere in an interaction.

If something is addressed to someone else, let them respond.

[-Grey-]

Oh yep. I used to ask a lot of questions. I tried to reduce it since they were deemed scummy actions and something along the line "asked too many questions, but give few opinions".

Ask your questions, just be sure to do something with the answers.

[-Grey-]

He wasn't

forced

to do anything.

He weighed his options and made a choice.

Personal responsibility exists. Society has been working diligently to drive it to extinction, but hasn't been successful... yet.

[-Grey-]

Yes. Explicitly.

Very explicitly.

Blatantly and unapologetically explicitly.

And I townread him for it.

btw, for the curious, this is probably about what I'd expect scum!grey to be doing for a buddy under pressure. I don't especially think grey is actually scum, but I'm noting it for possible future reference.

Do go on.

Tell me more about my scum game. Like where you've ever seen it, for starters.

[-Grey-]

Do go on.

Tell me more about my scum game. Like where you've ever seen it, for starters.

See

"-grey- would hardclaim an inno on his obv-scum partner D2 in a micro if he could" - gigabyteTroubadour

and I'm pretty sure I've seen you make comments about your scum game being strongly in the "protect my buddy/buddies" elsewhere, though I don't really recall where in particular.

So you're just going to buy that without any attempt to individually confirm it?

I have a beach villa for sale in Arizona if you're in the market. Pacific Ocean right in your own back yard.

[-Grey-]

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=70094

I bussed the shit out of Not_Mafia.

[-Grey-]

So you're just going to buy that without any attempt to individually confirm it?

I'm going to presume that a description of your meta that is strong enough to go into your signature, and which has been referenced elsewhere, is very probably true. OTOH, you think oldwino is town so it doesn't actually matter... right?

What makes you think any of this is about oldwino?

[-Grey-]

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=70094

I bussed the shit out of Not_Mafia.

VC 2.LYNCH!

-Grey-

(5): BangTheMafia 958, Vaxkiller 970, Davesaz 972, Spade_Ace 973, -Grey- 975

Spade_Ace

(2): Alban 626, Not_Mafia 888

BangTheMafia

(1): Gamma Emerald 594

Not Voting

(1): Kop

With 9 Alive, it takes 5 to lynch

The day will end on February 14th, 2017 at 3 AM EST. (V-Day ♥)
(expired on 2017-02-14 02:00:00)

Mod Notes:

Nothing at this time!

(and were on BTM before that)

You had an early vote on him

I am town though so

Well shit man, why didn't you say so in the first place?!

I was busy talking about other people's alignments. Don't worry I got you covered now fam.

We ride together.
We die together.
Bad boys for life.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

and searching for "not_mafia" in your ISO makes him barely show up.

How did you "bus the hell out of him" exactly?

VOTE: mhsmith0

Wow dude.

VOTE: NM

Lynch scum and chew gum.

VC 3.2

Not_Mafia

(4):

Vaxkiller 1058, -Grey- 1170, Carnelian 1172, Not_Mafia 1176

Kop

(1): Alban 1056

Not Voting

(2): bangthemafia, Kop

With 7 Alive, it takes 4 to lynch

Not_Mafia will be lynched today.

[-Grey-]

What makes you think any of this is about oldwino?

well it was the source of your original comment. And your reaction to it suggests that the potential association bothers you for some reason.

Misrep.

You acting like you know something about my scum game when you have no experience with it bothers me for some reason.

[-Grey-]

Misrep.

You acting like you know something about my scum game when you have no experience with it bothers me for some reason.

Why does that bother you? You're happy to openly proclaim yourself a non-busser; why is it odd that I'd take such a claim seriously? And what exactly did I misrep you on there?

Smith> associative assumption based on uninformed opinion of meta

Me> question regarding knowledge of meta

Smith> admission of ignorance and doubling down on unfounded opinion; attempt to redirect to association to take focus off bad meta-based associative

That about sums it up.

[-Grey-]

wrt 319, it's almost like I took a quick skim at VCs, saw you were lynched d2 (I guess you got rez'd then?), didn't bother to look after that, and then took a quick look at your ISO to see if there were a bunch of mentions (there weren't especially). How is any of that scummy?

That's because I was town before I was lynched, and sum after.

My role is listed in the OP. Feign ignorance all you want, you have been around long enough to know how Judas works.

[-Grey-]

wrt 319, it's almost like I took a quick skim at VCs, saw you were lynched d2 (I guess you got rez'd then?), didn't bother to look after that, and then took a quick look at your ISO to see if there were a bunch of mentions (there weren't especially). How is any of that scummy?

That's because I was town before I was lynched, and scum after.

My role is listed in the OP. Feign ignorance all you want, you have been around long enough to know how Judas works.

Edit

[-Grey-]

My role is listed in the OP. Feign ignorance all you want, you have been around long enough to know how Judas works.

I have never played a game with a judas before (this is verifiable btw), and certainly didn't take the time while doing a quick vc/iso skim to think through how that role would work in that game.

Unfounded assumptions are pretty shitty, aren't they?

[-Grey-]

I fail to see how any of this is indicative at all on me. Your case boils down to
1) I made assertions that have no basis in reality
2) I snatched at the first thing that supported those assertions without considering that you might have posted that example for a reason.

FTFY.

Fact of the matter is, I

don't

bus. But there is no reasonable way for you to be so certain of that based on a signature as to base pre-flip associatives on it. Especially when I post meta that directly contradicts your assumption.

[-Grey-]

1) You have zero grounds to make any such statement in the first place about my scum play one way or the other and it comes across to me as a lazy narrative. You can ease my suspicions by posting examples of other games where you were town and made similar assumptions that were then destroyed by a simple glance at actual facts. You don't strike me as the kind of player that would be so careless as town, so I'd like to be disabused of that notion if I'm mistaken.

2) You seriously thought I'd post an example that didn't support my argument? Your complete disinterest in actually doing the work to dig at the truth instead of engage in this point/counterpoint bullshit when you know I easily tire of vacuous arguments only serves to solidify my read.

[-Grey-]

I've proven your assumption on my meta is flat out wrong. Period.

There is a reason it's wrong. And there is a reason it's right. You only care about pricing yourself right, with no actual interest in the truth.

Hence you're scum and you can take your walls and shove them.

[-Grey-]

I've proven your assumption on my meta is flat out wrong. Period.

There is a reason it's wrong. And there is a reason it's right. You only care about proving yourself right, with no actual interest in the truth.

Hence you're scum and you can take your walls and shove them.

Edit.

[-Grey-]

All of a sudden the truth matters now that I've illustrated how he had no interest in the truth.

[-Grey-]

You're not the person I need to convince.

I need to convince town to help me lynch scum.

Continuing the back and forth with you is pointless because OF COURSE you aren't actually going to admit I'm right.

[-Grey-]

And as soon as someone shows any interest in that, I will address it.

You're tiresome and I'm ending the perpetual cycle that you thrive in.

[-Grey-]

Grey's weird "reason it's wrong and reason it's right" thing felt off to me.

How can it feel off, when you don't even know what those reasons are?

[-Grey-]

Lol... grandiose.

I like that.

[-Grey-]

Dogwatch is obvtown and I'm willing to lynch anyone scumreading them.

No, I agree. But bad thought processes are still bad thought processes.

[-Grey-]

Did you just question my dogwatch townread you insolent monkey

Don't make me move my vote off scum just to spite vote Dogwatch.

[-Grey-]

VOTE: Dogwatch

[-Grey-]

You type like a Bond villain.

I'm so sigging that after this game.

[-Grey-]

There's a certain pompous precision to it.

Anyway, in post 158 you state smith seems town to you. But after a supposed misrep about your meta, you vote him. Was this your first suspicion of him all game? Was there any progress to it or just a sudden jump?

It's kinda hard to put into words?

As you've surely seen by now, Smith is a very detail-oriented player... so when he starts deliberately ignoring details to favor his narrative, it provokes my suspicion.

[-Grey-]

Are you just as detail-oriented? You've been in two big spats already which both went on for a while. Are you naturally argumentative about details?

Not really, just a last word kinda guy.

You know the type, I'm sure. Obnoxious. Self-righteous. Unyielding.

[-Grey-]

And hard to sort in a game of mafia.

Not once you get some experience under your belt and learn to look beyond superficial appearances.

[-Grey-]

You can remove your spite vote, Dr. No.

Lol, fair enough.

VOTE: mhsmith0

[-Grey-]

Save your word soup.

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=70094

I bussed the shit out of Not_Mafia.

VC 2.LYNCH!

-Grey-

(5): BangTheMafia 958, Vaxkiller 970, Davesaz 972, Spade_Ace 973, -Grey- 975

Spade_Ace

(2): Alban 626, Not_Mafia 888

BangTheMafia

(1): Gamma Emerald 594

Not Voting

(1): Kop

With 9 Alive, it takes 5 to lynch

The day will end on February 14th, 2017 at 3 AM EST. (V-Day ♥)
(expired on 2017-02-14 02:00:00)

Mod Notes:

Nothing at this time!

(and were on BTM before that)

You had an early vote on him

I am town though so

Well shit man, why didn't you say so in the first place?!

I was busy talking about other people's alignments. Don't worry I got you covered now fam.

We ride together.
We die together.
Bad boys for life.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

and searching for "not_mafia" in your ISO makes him barely show up.

How did you "bus the hell out of him" exactly?

It's clear to anyone that has been reading that my gripe is about you pulling this irrelevant shit out of the game I linked instead of taking a few minutes to actually understand what I was actually driving at.

Pasting a wagon where I was not bussing does not even negate a little bit the fact I bussed the shit out of my team.

[-Grey-]

It's clear to anyone that has been reading that my gripe is about you pulling this irrelevant shit out of the game I linked instead of taking a few minutes to actually understand what I was actually driving at.

Which is NAI as I've discussed. And certainly was not done to "further a narrative", as you so nonsensically accuse me of doing.

Idgaf what you've discussed.

I obviously disagree.

[-Grey-]

Grey, for those of us having a hard time following this, how does your admission to bussing relate to 332 where you say you don't bus? I know you were trying to make a point but it doesn't look like either smith or myself are getting it.

As a general rule, I don't bus.

However, in that game, I was pretty much boxed into bussing because of reads I formulated as town that I was locked into once I became scum.

So while it was technically a bus, it didn't start out as the intention to sacrifice my team when I developed the scumread.

Clear as mud?

[-Grey-]

Grey, for those of us having a hard time following this, how does your admission to bussing relate to 332 where you say you don't bus? I know you were trying to make a point but it doesn't look like either smith or myself are getting it.

As a general rule, I don't bus.

However, in that game, I was pretty much boxed into bussing because of reads I formulated as town that I was locked into once I became scum.

So while it was technically a bus, it didn't start out as the intention to sacrifice my team when I developed the scumread.

Clear as mud?

Oh, so the Judas role created that situation? I missed that.

Yup.

[-Grey-]

No, my beef with you, Smith, is that you make assumptions about my meta with no actual knowledge of it.

As I have amply demonstrated.

[-Grey-]

No, my beef with you, Smith, is that you make assumptions about my meta with no actual knowledge of it.

As I have amply demonstrated.

Actually your beef with me is a contradictory mess. And presuming that your self-description of your meta is accurate are expressing game-relevant thoughts that take it into account is neither problematic nor scum-indicative, much as you seem to wish it was.

Simply untrue.

Self-meta is only proof of self-awareness. Anyone that takes it at face value is immediately suspect because once someone knows they do something as one alignment, it is a simple matter to duplicate it as the other.

So to simply accept self-meta is scummy because town would not be willing to provide such a simple pass.

[-Grey-]

No, my beef with you, Smith, is that you make assumptions about my meta with no actual knowledge of it.

As I have amply demonstrated.

Is that necessarily scummy?

Refer to 380.

[-Grey-]

Oh, you modded that?

UNVOTE:

Fair enough.

I was... how did he know about that game?!

[-Grey-]

I mean, I do skim some newbie games I'm not involved in from time to time too

PS I'm not sure whether to feel good or bad that you didn't remember my modding well enough to remember I modded it. Maybe a bit of both?

I've already been in over twenty games. I assure you I meant no slight.

[-Grey-]

helping newbies (who are mostly silent in this game) understand the game and themselves.

Do not fall into the trap of thinking helpfulness is alignment indicative.

It is very easy for scum to be helpful.

[-Grey-]

As an IC, you're a player first, and a teacher second.

Nah.

Flip those two around.

[-Grey-]

As an IC, you're a player first, and a teacher second.

Nah.

Flip those two around.

Disagree fwiw, though both are important. There are, unfortunately, a bunch of people who seem to think that the IC is a teacher not at all (I.e. Vomit out a intro post or two and then act like just a regular player from then on), but I'd still say player first teacher second.

Those people are ignorant pricks.

There were a bunch of people that thought the world was flat once. Did that make them right?

[-Grey-]

I think the 'teaching' half of being an IC needs to be taken more seriously and frequently isn't. That said you are always a player first and a teacher second.

If that were true, it would justify lying about theory in order to accomplish your wincon.

No, the ethics involved in being an IC demand that the requirements come before the player's wincon

[-Grey-]

How am I supposed to confidently learn from someone who might be actively working against me?

What the IC says in their capacity as the IC has to be true to the best of their knowledge, regardless of their alignment.

That is what "being a teacher first and player second" means. Some people are so focused on the "IC has to play to their wincon" aspect that they completely disregard the ethical obligations of the IC to be truthful

even at the expense of their wincon

.

[-Grey-]

We need EC's and maybe an IC is helpful, but they need to encourage the newbies to play rather than monopolize the game.

That's a fair point.

I'll sit back a bit to "make room" for the newbies to get their feet wet.

[-Grey-]

Words wound, mastina.

[-Grey-]

Words wound, mastina.

Apologies, that wording was unclear on my end.
I was saying essentially that mhsmith held that opinion of you (one I do not hold)--and that him holding that opinion of you yet engaging you

anyway

was not something I'd associate as being town.

My remark was tongue in cheek, a playful nod to a line in Person of Interest.

Sorry if it came across as serious.

[-Grey-]

We need EC's and maybe an IC is helpful, but they need to encourage the newbies to play rather than monopolize the game.

That's a fair point.

I'll sit back a bit to "make room" for the newbies to get their feet wet.

You're already playing this game from the back of the room, how much farther can you "sit back"?

My activity dwarfs that of pretty much everybody else in this game.

If you're going to poke the bear, you better have something better than that pathetic stick.

[-Grey-]

We need EC's and maybe an IC is helpful, but they need to encourage the newbies to play rather than monopolize the game.

That's a fair point.

I'll sit back a bit to "make room" for the newbies to get their feet wet.

You're already playing this game from the back of the room, how much farther can you "sit back"?

My activity dwarfs that of pretty much everybody else in this game.

If you're going to poke the bear, you better have something better than that pathetic stick.

Activity/post count has little to do with game play.

If your going to run your mouth, bring a case.

Put up or shut up, stop with the worthless shade slinging.

[-Grey-]

My list at this point

Mhsmith
Dogwatch
Oldwino

RC
Pieg
Darklyn

Grey
Mastina

Those reads don't mean much without reasons.

I've given plenty of content for you to build a case on, so how about you do it?

[-Grey-]

Welcome to the game, lemon.

Looking forward to your perspective.

[-Grey-]

As far as mine goes, it's mostly apathetic.

Being bitched at for posting too much by one player and not saying enough by another has given me a pretty much idgaf attitude right now.

[-Grey-]

Apparently you missed post 593.

You should probably read it.

[-Grey-]

That's no way to get what you want.

See you folks in 48 hours.

[-Grey-]

^
anyone want to guess what's seriously wrong with the above post, and probably scum-indicative?

*pokes head in*

I see a theory squabble, which doesn't look particularly NAI. What am I missing?

*leaves*

[-Grey-]

The issue here isn't that it's a theory squabble, it's that he's completely and utterly missed the point of what I was saying, to the point where it looks much more like he was simply looking for something to attack as opposed to trying to understand.

I get where you're coming from and understand why you feel that way.

Sometimes, people are just argumentative for the sake of it. I know I am.

Is there something you think he stands to accomplish with this argument, if he's scum?

[-Grey-]

Would he being taking a different approach towards you as, say, confbiased town?

[-Grey-]

Alright, I'm comfortable with that logic.

VOTE: Darklyn

L-1

[-Grey-]

Cba: can't be asked

Actually, it's "can't be assed" (can't be bothered)

UNVOTE:

[-Grey-]

I will note, fwiw, that tracker is the traditional scum fake claim in this setup on day one under pressure. That said we're not lynching there barring a cc.

I'll go one step father and suggest the real tracker not cc until d2 if applicable.

[-Grey-]

Mechanics note: if there's a cc of jailkeeper, then they need to tell us who they're jailing given a Roleblocker flip (if they die tonight, whoever they jailed is hard clear because they couldn't have shot - obviously don't jail icy in that event because a Roleblocker flip hard clears him). If there's a goon flip, then the bp claim gets jailed just in case it was a super ballsy fake claim.

Again, day 2 cc is ideal.

Crumbing a target would be good, but it could also out the jailer if done clumsily.

[-Grey-]

Mechanics note: if there's a cc of jailkeeper, then they need to tell us who they're jailing given a Roleblocker flip (if they die tonight, whoever they jailed is hard clear because they couldn't have shot - obviously don't jail icy in that event because a Roleblocker flip hard clears him). If there's a goon flip, then the bp claim gets jailed just in case it was a super ballsy fake claim.

Again, day 2 cc is ideal.

Crumbing a target would be good, but it could also out the jailer if done clumsily.

Nope. Day one mislynch plus day two fakeclaim = easy LYLO. We're not playing that game. Day one cc or he's cleared town.

Nope.

1) Day one won't necessarily be a mislynch.
2) Real Tracker gets use of their role before they counter

If this were d2+, I'd agree with you. But it's not.

[-Grey-]

Well, real Tracker/JK.

Same diff

[-Grey-]

If he's scummy and wants you gone, why wouldn't he simply unvote you and shoot you tonight since he knows you can't be protected?

[-Grey-]

You're still calling me Scum and have yet to tell us why.

VOTE: Icy

So let's dance. Why am I Scum?

[-Grey-]

You're still calling me Scum and have yet to tell us why.

VOTE: Icy

So let's dance. Why am I Scum?

And by the way, who is this US you speak of?

Us?

ALL of us. You have yet to present a case either for me to refute or anyone else to analyze.

What kind of question is that?

[-Grey-]

Grey, the only way that pushing the BP claim at this juncture makes even the slightest bit of sense is if you're claiming jailkeeper (in which case he MIGHT be lying) or cop (in which case you probably should have claimed a while ago, and certainly should have CC'd the tracker claim since you'd have both scum outed at this point). You disliking his push on you is a terrible reason to vote someone who's essentially a mechanical clear, and I feel like you'd know this if you were town. What gives?

Oh, he claimed BP?

UNVOTE:

Sorry, I'm kinda disconnected from this game due to the fact it's moving slow as molasses and my other games are actually getting somewhere.

[-Grey-]

KINDA disconnected.....holly shit

You did sign up to play, maybe you could put in the effort to at least skim the thread a little!!!

Alright. I'll skim the thread a little.

I'll need a little direction in order to justify the time spent, however.

Let's play a game. Let's say I get lynched today and flip town, and the tracker... Darklyn? I think Darklyn... gets NK'ed tonight.

Who is scum?

I'll start my ISO review there.

[-Grey-]

Also, lol at both PR's being outed on d fucking 1.

Is there seriously any wonder why there is so much apathy and replacements going on?

[-Grey-]

Yeah uh, what train exactly?

[-Grey-]

Or you guys could lynch the dude that's clearly not invested in the game anyway and give the newb some time to figure out what he's doing.

[-Grey-]

Or you guys could lynch the dude that's clearly not invested in the game anyway and give the newb some time to figure out what he's doing.

So we're lynching grey then?

That was kinda my point.

You feeling ok dude?

[-Grey-]

Okay so...

DogWatch
oldwino

Darklyn
Icy

lemonater
RadiantCowbells (SE) +

-Grey- (SE)

mhsmith0 (SE)
mastina (IC)

After striking out impossibles/least possibles FMPOV, that leaves three newbs and three experienced players.

I

want

to say that newbscum would be more likely to be standing out even on d1, but after 1777, I know that's just not so, at least from my perspective.

That said, I'm still confident that at least one of the Scum are experienced, because there has been a good amount of interaction between all of the newbies that I wouldn't expect to see if both the Scum were newb.

Of the experienced, I doubt RC would hesitate to push a wagon here if he was scum, because this town is begging to be led and scum!RC has the chops to do so. So, + mark for him.

mastina/Smith, I HIGHLY doubt are the Scum team, else they put on some world class theater, so at least one of the scum are newb.

I'd rather save the mastina/Smith dipole for d2, as choosing wrong will cost us a strong town, so it would be best to lynch their newb partner.

That leaves...

Dogwatch
oldwino
lemonater

I have pretty good feels about oldwino and Dogwatch, so let's go with

VOTE: lemonater

[-Grey-]

Gut (there's that word again) tells me there's little chance Mastina and Ulti are scumbuddies. If Mastina is scum, then she's coaching behind the scenes, and there's no way Ulti would come up with such a terrible vote (on his own scumbuddy no less) if they're conversing outside this thread.

I think Dogwatch townslipped here.

[-Grey-]

Quote fail, lol.

Anyway, it's the 292 link.

[-Grey-]

Her stance on mastina is pretty much irrelevant.

She was assuming scum was communicating, which they can only do during night phases.

Scum knows that.

[-Grey-]

Third worst, but yeah.

[-Grey-]

Idk man, not really feeling like bussing Smith.

We haven't even had a chance to strategize past d2 in the Scum PT yet.

[-Grey-]

Alright, I'm comfortable with that logic.

VOTE: Darklyn

L-1

This wasn't a particularly good vote from grey, fwiw. I remember having a bit of a gross "maybe I'm wrong" feeling about dark, and idk that my explanation there was really good enough to convince someone who wasn't feeling the wagon. At some point maybe someone should weigh in on whether they thought that my explanation ought to have been good enough to convince anyone? I look at it and I'm not super sure that it ought to have been.

I was more interested in your response to the second question than the first.

[-Grey-]

Not really.

Scum in a bind have nothing to lose by fishing out another PR.

[-Grey-]

Doesn't mean they should succeed.

[-Grey-]

I mean, you get why it's bad to do that kind of plan given tracker/bp/goon/goon right?

How is that a given?

If Darklyn is fakeclaiming, it could be JK, BP, RB, goon.

If that's the case, it gives the JK one night with their role before they counter confirmed scum.

[-Grey-]

PS I did ask for an extension, but I'd presume that one won't be happening. So proceed accordingly. Grey is either around or intentionally slunk away at a key moment, I guess remember that as well if he doesn't come back before EOD (and if he does then just judge him on whatever he ends up doing)

Fuck you too dude.

I'm always around. I'm just not always talking.

[-Grey-]

Or, maybe you're trying to turn today into a no lynch by splitting up votes.

VOTE: mhsmith0

And the reason I've been plausibly softing will be clear enough d2.

[-Grey-]

I voted you because you had a wagon and a lynch needed to happen. Regardless of what I said to see how you'd react to it, Grey was always my first choice.

Get the fuck over it dude.

I know you don't like me, but fucking stop with the spite scumread.

[-Grey-]

Why do you think it was a spite scumread and not an actual read? Like, I know you two have butted heads in prior games (1770 an obvious example tho I suspect there are others); what in particular makes you think it's spite?

That's between me and RC.

[-Grey-]

Also, given that you're suggesting that it's spite, does that mean that you think RC is town and acting irrationally? If so, who is scum? Because "it's spite" seems like an accusation of villagery (if bad villagery) behavior to me.

Considering you griped about me clearing RC in 758, idk what you're asking this for.

[-Grey-]

That's between me and RC.

OK then I'll clarify: do you think RC is being spiteful? Or do you think he's being scum? Because "it's spite" pretty clearly (to me) implies a town read on his slot; am I wrong?

Refer to 848.

[-Grey-]

This is not a spite scumread. I have thought you were some form of scum since the literal beginning of the game.

Kinda making my point.

[-Grey-]

I bus donchaknow

[-Grey-]

There was plenty of time to deadline lynch lemon, so that's Grade A bullshit.

[-Grey-]

fyi i didn't have time to check in here during lunch break, will do so after I get out of work, ballpark 5 hours from now.

Okay so...
That said, I'm still confident that at least one of the Scum are experienced, because there has been a good amount of interaction between all of the newbies that I wouldn't expect to see if both the Scum were newb.

I don't think Dogwatch hasn't interacted lemonater at all (or his predecessors)

I am voting either Grey or Mhsmith0 today. I'm going to do my final reread soon and place my vote.

Gut (there's that word again) tells me there's little chance Mastina and Ulti are scumbuddies. If Mastina is scum, then she's coaching behind the scenes, and there's no way Ulti would come up with such a terrible vote (on his own scumbuddy no less) if they're conversing outside this thread.

I think Dogwatch townslipped here.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by 'townslipped' here. Was she trying to sound town but sounded scum? Or inadvertently sounded like town without knowing it? And wouldn't that just be smart play? I don't pick up any slippage in either direction in post 292. Since I'm undecided about DW, understanding your point is important for me. And also, this was over a week ago and she's changed her stance on Mastina now (without giving any reason that I can find). I'm pretty equally suspicious, even though not strongly so, about both Lemonater and DW, and may have to vote one way or the other, so the best reasoning you can share, the better.

When I voted Lemon, there was plenty of opportunity for the wagon to build.

Me
Smith
RC
Darklyn
Oldwino

SO DON'T GIVE ME THAT SHIT YOU LYING FUCK

[-Grey-]

I strongly suspect that I am going to be fearkilled so Grey can find some way to try to say that his attempt to try to CC the tracker claim was town motivated and try to grab towncred for the tracker living but meh.

I know that's a fucking lie because RC knows damned well that I'm not afraid to take him to MyLo when I'm Scum.

[-Grey-]

I strongly suspect that I am going to be fearkilled so Grey can find some way to try to say that his attempt to try to CC the tracker claim was town motivated and try to grab towncred for the tracker living but meh.

I know that's a fucking lie because RC knows damned well that I'm not afraid to take him to MyLo when I'm Scum.

I mean, the mindset if real is obvtown from RC (town!rc would totally expect a n1 here), the question is if it's fake. Because I'm like 90% sure RC could and would fake a "I'm gonna be fearkilled tonight" if he thought it'd be helpful. And/or if he thought that I might specifically town read him for it as I lay here slowly dying

I just don't get why he'd say it as either alignment really, because he knows I have the cojones to take him and Titus both to MyLo.

[-Grey-]

I just don't get why he'd say it as either alignment really, because he knows I have the cojones to take him and Titus both to MyLo.

RC has a really large ego. It's probably his biggest town tell.

Not really. He's not exactly humble as Scum, either.

[-Grey-]

Alright this is textbook scum!Grey sheep me guys I didn't read the rest of the game besides Grey's ISO at all.
VOTE: Grey
For my next magic trick, I will make Grey's scumbuddy bus him because that's the best way to play mafia.
In all seriousness I can explain a bit more in-depth when I get home.

Sorry but you're wrong.

For my next truck, I'm going to disappear.

replace out

[-Grey-]

Alright this is textbook scum!Grey sheep me guys I didn't read the rest of the game besides Grey's ISO at all.
VOTE: Grey
For my next magic trick, I will make Grey's scumbuddy bus him because that's the best way to play mafia.
In all seriousness I can explain a bit more in-depth when I get home.

Sorry but you're wrong.

For my next trick, I'm going to disappear.

replace out

Edit

[-Grey-]

@Grey, hope I made you proud with your slot.

You rocked bro, great job.

[-Grey-]

I must be really shit at pushing my reads.

Lol, you can't even lynch me when my slot is empty.

[-Grey-]

This is the part where I describe every single game I've played with Grey and say I've read him correctly a lot.

I've also had to smack you around for misreading me a lot.

[-Grey-]

Sorry for the replace out. I was overloaded and life got busy, which is why I haven't joined any games since leaving.

I'm finishing up on the few games I'm still in and taking a break for a while.

[-Grey-]

oldwino it gets harder when you aren't in newbies.
Trust me on this.

Yeah, that's why I'm trying another newbie before I get into 'real' games. Looking forward to a normal though. Soon.

You do a great job of obvtowning yourself.

[-Grey-]

@Grey You owe me a signature quote! I didn't forget!

Thank you for the reminder!

[-Grey-]

So Grey is scum whenever I scumread him but I still can't lynch him regardless of how right I am got it.

FTFY

[-Grey-]

Sorry Ali. Great job nailing me this game, though. Seriously.

[-Grey-]

Sorry Ali. Great job nailing me this game, though. Seriously.

Agreed, though I did a decent job wiggling my way of it

I didn't really keep up with the game after replacing out.

You must have done something right to dodge the noose with two confirmed town bouncing around and Alisae screaming for your head, so kudos to you regardless of the salt that is being flung around about you.

You don't have to be the towniest town that ever towned to win as scum. You just have to make town look scummier than you. Which you must haves done, considering you prevailed.

Fuck the haters.