[Game Over] Newbie 1784 - Escape Room

[BlackVoid]

Hi everyone. I skimmed most of the game and will catch up in more detail soon. Don't know who Aslan is but hey - I'm just as fun.

[BlackVoid]

I caught up on stuff that happened since I replaced in. nancy's moves so far have been really suboptimal if she's town. It's possible she claimed 1-shot BP as scum to bait a doc claim.

If that's the case, the doc counterclaiming at this point is actually the best idea.

Then we lynch nancy, the doc is nightkilled. Since there is no roleblocker and only one scum would be left, whoever I track tonight will be cleared. So, even if we mislynch D2 and I get killed N2, there will be a tracker clear on D3. I don't want to risk lynching nancy if she's actually a 1-shot BP and the value of keeping a doc hidden at this point isn't much higher than just counterclaiming.

If you are town, please don't fake-claim

(I don't know why this needs to be said but it's been happening so often in recent games I've played or modded in).

[BlackVoid]

Stopping a night kill and THEN doing the trade would be much more powerful.

Actually it wouldn't. If the doc keeps their role hidden, the D1 lynch could be anyone and D1 lynches usually hit town. The doc save means nothing since it just gets the game to evens and we have to no lynch to get it back to odds.

On the other hand, if the doc cc's, we have a guaranteed scum lynch D1 and we can make an informed D2 lynch while using associative tells from nancy to clear town or catch the remaining scum. Tl;dr, not cc'ing now merely shifts the auto-lynch from D1 to D2 and an actual concensus lynch from D2 to D1. But I'd rather have a concensus lynch later in the game when we have more info and flips. I'm not sure I'm phrasing it right. Does that make sense?

[BlackVoid]

Well, my biggest suspicion right now is your slot due to Pine so I'm taking what you say with a grain of salt.

I can't be the only one who finds this entire wall fake as hell. I'm hoping to catch up really quickly so I can get a better understanding of the gamestate but would like everyone's opinion on Pine/Drixx so I can engage when I catch up. I have about three hours now, then I leave for work for an evening shift and hopefully when I come back at midnight PST, I can catch up some more.

[BlackVoid]

To elaborate somewhat - that wall of Pine's seems designed to get him into nancy's good books (which would imply nancy-town). He just takes it for granted that nancy is town, laying some sort of trap and scumreads people for "falling into her trap" and "reacting to her push like caught scum." It feels really simplistic and not like he's trying to understand other's perspective. More like he's telling nancy what she wants to hear.

[BlackVoid]

I looked at the setup again and knowing I'm a tracker, I know there absolutely has to be a 1-shot BP or a doc in the game. If there is, then counterclaim and we lynch nancy. If not, then nancy is confirmed town.

@nancy, when you finish catching up, let's talk about Pine's slot/Drixx. That's the only slot I feel comfortable voting. No idea who the partner is but I'm doing some heavy skimming since time is limited.

[BlackVoid]

VOTE: Drixx

I have townreads on Loopdan and TesXX as well. Unsure on the rest of the playerlist. Chronicle might be town but his play is radically different from a recent towngame that I was backup modding (Micro 695) so I'm not ready to slot him as town just yet.

[BlackVoid]

Explain what? My scumread on Drixx or the townreads elsewhere? I did explain my Drixx scumread in my previous few posts.

[BlackVoid]

I'll follow you on Drixx but talk to me about the rest of your reads first? Chronicle especially. I don't want to go to Night any earlier than we have to and I'd love to digest with you as much as possible before then.

Okay, so here's Chronicle's ISO in Micro 695. A quick summary of the context - it was a nightless setup where if there was a town lynch D1, scum need to kill one of their own. And if there was a scum lynch D1, scum can nightkill a town but it goes into white flag. Chronicle put a townie at L-1 and a scum quickhammered. He admitted to screwing up and seemed mostly unsure about his reads and where to push. While he had gut scumreads, he had a very uncertain tone and generally just confused about the game.

His play here didn't strike me that way at all. He confidently pushes both you and StealthyNoodle for voting a lurker. He has coherent reasoning that I can follow easily and backs up his push well. Normally that's towny which is why I leaned town on him. But his play being so different from his towngame made me wonder if his higher level of confidence came from knowing everyone's alignment. So, I'm undecided on him overall.

[BlackVoid]

The town reads on chronicle and tes.

See previous post for Chronicle. I townread TesXX for being so insistent that we follow optimal strategy and have everyone claim 1-shot BP, then tracker. I see that he has garnered a few scumreads for "talking about the setup over actually scumhunting" but I disagree. I think he was so keen to get everyone to follow the plan because he knew it was optimal for town and he wanted to win. There was also a lot of disagreement over it and nancy and some others refused to follow it. So, of course he's going to dig in and defend his views on the setup. I also think as scum, he might want to hang back and see what town does as opposed to stubbornly demand that everyone follows the most optimal, pro-town strategy. TesXX was scum in the Chronicle-towngame I linked earlier and his play there supports my theory that he'd blend into the background if he were scum.

[BlackVoid]

it looks like they are actually more experienced than I thought

That's interesting! I got the same impression midway through reading their posts and that's the point where I started to wonder if Chronicle was better than they were letting on and is part of why I went and read the other game.

As far as StealthyNoodle is concerned, I found a lot of his posts to be awkward but the way he went about trying to dismantle Pine's wall case on him felt like town that thought scum was making a bullshit push on them and was determined to push back.

[BlackVoid]

If someone survives the night, it means we have a doc. Not sure if scum are allowed to not vote, but to do so would for certain be a risk. They'd let a player stay alive, on the assumption we'll end up lynching nancy.

This post is super contradictory. First you say that if someone survives the night (presumably you mean if no kill happens?), then it means we have doctor ... which is not at all a sound conclusion. Then you express the idea that scum would not kill in order to frame Nancy.

Like ... you basically just scum claimed and cleared Nancy with this post.

This post? I'm not really sure what StealthyNoodle is trying to say but I don't see how it's a scumclaim. Yeah, it's contradictory and his assumption that if there's no kill, that means we have a doc isn't sound. But he seems to be a newbie and I don't get why him making unsound conclusions is tantamount to a scum claim.

[BlackVoid]

If someone survives the night, it means we have a doc. Not sure if scum are allowed to not vote, but to do so would for certain be a risk. They'd let a player stay alive, on the assumption we'll end up lynching nancy.

From context, I think he's saying that if there's no kill tonight, it means there's a doc who saved the kill which means that you (nancy) are scum. Because if you were town, I'll be dead tonight. But he's also wondering about the possibility of scum no-killing just to frame a town-nancy. What's contradictory or scummy about it?

[BlackVoid]

Void if Drixx is Town then where do we look?

I don't have any other scumreads right now which is part of the reason I only feel comfortable voting Drixx. But if he's town, I'll have to re-read the whole game.

[BlackVoid]

Just making a note that deadline is 2:20 AM for me on the 11th, which effectively means the night of the 10th (Monday night).

Going to re-read WhyMafia and Screenplay. That's where I'd look for Pine/Drixx's partner if it's not Chronicle.

[BlackVoid]

I mentioned I wanted to look at WhyMafia and Screenplay more in-depth. I went through WhyMafia's ISO and I could see him being a potential Pine partner. At first, he questions townreads on Pine saying that all he did was defend nancy (implicitly creating a false Pine-nancy association). But once there are votes on Pine, he immediately switches to defending him in 299 preferring to lynch a more active player. He continues this line of reasoning in 463. But in 801, he's fine lynching TesXX for "lurking." That's pretty inconsistent. If Drixx flips scum, I'd look at WhyMafia as a partner. A few other points: I think this has been mentioned already but I didn't like him asking people who they would protect if they were the doc. He could easily have asked what their reads were. The "lynch me" post and subsequent reasoning didn't feel genuine either because he knew scum wouldn't ask to be lynched and is basically arguing that his "lynch me" request makes him town so it seems like that's why he did it.

@WhyMafia, can you please post your read on Pine/Drixx? You keep defending that slot but you haven't ever given a solid reason why you are townreading them.

[BlackVoid]

Why are you townreading WhyMafia?

[BlackVoid]

No one has counterclaimed, so nancy is confirmed town. What is left to discuss?

[BlackVoid]

I almost forgot that this was a newbie game, maybe I should elaborate: if doc counterclaims nancy today, we'll have lynched scum D1. They will get killed N1. I will track someone N1 and since there is only one scum left and no roleblocker, we either win outright if I track the scum to a kill or we enter D2 with two confirmed townies (me and the person I tracked). That's seven alive, two conf-town, one scum. That's a very advantageous situation for town. If anyone counterclaims tomorrow, I'm lynching the counterclaimer first.

[BlackVoid]

Drixx please. Leaving for work now but I'll be back in 6-7 hours to discuss final reads before we move on to night.

[BlackVoid]

Like Void this Drixx lynch just feels full of conf!bias, we've established that Chronicle looks ugly tonally and Loopdan has been a scummy lurksack all game without attracting any real pressure. I want to lynch either Chronicle or Loopdan here. Src as a compromise.

Pedit three? And don't be simplistic.

Yeah, I was starting to worry it was too easy but Pine's posts have still been the single most scummy thing I've read this game. I'm free all day tomorrow so I'm going to give this game a good re-read from start to finish and post a list of my reads in the morning/afternoon and I'd be happy to hear what you think of them.

[BlackVoid]

Btw Void what do you think about Noodle's tonal shift over the past several pages or so?

What tonal shift? As far as his vote on Drixx goes, he spent a lot of time walling against Pine and pushing him so it's not surprising he'd jump at the opportunity to lynch the slot if he's town.

[BlackVoid]

I'm caught up since where I last left off but reading is taking longer than expected so I'll just leave thoughts off the top of my head.

@nancy, Loopdan is actually one of my stronger townreads. Him saying that you should be replaced out may not have been particularly nice but wanting people to either play to win or replace out is something I can easily see coming from town. Personally, I'm more of a "play-to-win" type as well. I think the best way to teach newbies how to play is to give it your best shot at winning and not treating them with kid gloves. I would have supported the BP-claim strategy if I were in the game because I see it as optimal.

Him trying to get you and Pine to read each other also felt town motivated to me because observing how two people who are friends interact with each other is pretty good way to get reads. For example, when I was reading Pine's posts to you, it felt like he was going out of his way to appease you so I concluded that he was likely scum and you were likely town. I didn't agree with Loopdan's conclusion that you were both scum but I could see his "sorting you two through how you talk to each other" a good approach for him to take.

Will post more as I read through.

[BlackVoid]

I also feel that Drixx is not investing himself in the game so as to give the least amount of associative tells after he's lynched. The primary reason he's getting lynched is Pine's posts so he could very well have thought that there wasn't much he could do and it wasn't really his "fault" for replacing into a doomed scumslot.

[BlackVoid]

Can someone link me to past Pine-IC games? There's something I want to check but I'm skim-reading really fast before deadline so don't want to go looking for them.

[BlackVoid]

Can someone link me to past Pine-IC games? There's something I want to check but I'm skim-reading really fast before deadline so don't want to go looking for them.

viewtopic.php?t=70152&f=11&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

There's one at least. I don't think meta is going to that helpful here, though, because he seems to have consciously changed his approach to ICing and moreover has been totally inactive this game.

Basically, I wanted to see if he spent a lot of the early-game fluff-posting and offering IC advice because that's the impression I got from his early game here. 67 - Pine is not sure whether the BP claiming is optimal or not but claims anyway. Slight scumpoints for trying to blend in with the town and not checking first to see whether it was optimal. 81 feels a bit premature and fabricated. "Yup, scum are attacking nancy" is a weird thing for town to say this early. Scanning his town-IC-ISO, he has more content but he also does spend a lot of time fluffing so it's inconclusive. I didn't get the same pings from reading his ISO as I got here though regarding buddying.

[BlackVoid]

Loopdan is a fairly low poster and an unconventional player. Here is his ISO in a recent completed game with me. It might help.

[BlackVoid]

He spent the entirety of D1 naked voting, empty-quoting, and speaking in the third person.

[BlackVoid]

Oh ok

I was unaware mentioning emotions was scummy. I'll keep that in mind.

So of all the people who posted you think I'm scummy bc I was referring to a comment made about my skill?

This post stuck out to me on a re-read. Quoting this because it's important. The bolded part comes from a newb-mafia perspective. He's trying to figure out what is scummy and making sure to avoid doing them in the future.

[BlackVoid]

Not necessarily. I could be trying to learn that so I don't get mis-lynched, hurting my team's win con

So, if someone whose alignment you don't know tells you that you are giving off scumtells, your response would be to make sure you don't do them in the future as opposed to question the motivations of the person arguing it?

Since you are so focused on wincons, you do know that the town wincon isn't just to survive, right? If you just keep mislynching your fellow townies, you will lose the game. To win, you

have

to find scum. You can't just lynch anyone other than yourself. You have to lynch the

right

people. So, with that in mind, why are you more focused on not doing a specific scumtell rather than questioning srceenplay on whether emotional play is scummy in the first place? Why didn't you think he could be scum fabricating it as a reason to suspect you?

[BlackVoid]

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Here you go. This is the wincon you are referring to. How does your play square with this?

[BlackVoid]

I don't think it is

necessarily

scummy for a new player to be survivalistic but if you are going to refer me back to the town wincon, I'd expect you to actually be playing towards it.

[BlackVoid]

Since you are so focused on wincons, you do know that the town wincon isn't just to survive, right? If you just keep mislynching your fellow townies, you will lose the game. To win, you have to find scum. You can't just lynch anyone other than yourself. You have to lynch the right people. So, with that in mind, why are you more focused on not doing a specific scumtell rather than questioning srceenplay on whether emotional play is scummy in the first place? Why didn't you think he could be scum fabricating it as a reason to suspect you?

Because I did research and that was the general consensus. Appealing to emotion = bad

Yeah, I see StealthyNoodle linked you to the wiki page in 238. The posts that we are discussing happened before this. Your story is not adding up.

[BlackVoid]

I didn't know what ate stood for, but i knew that using emotions was not a good way to play the game, if that's what you're trying to say

If you knew that using emotions was not a good way to play the game, why would do it?

(Also, nancy I saw your post. I'm commenting as I catch up so it might be a couple of hours before I finish).

[BlackVoid]

How could you "look up" whether emotions are a good way to play the game. What page was it on? Can you link it for me?

[BlackVoid]

Okay. I see you were warned by the mod to not discuss ongoing games. That makes a lot more sense now. Unfortunately, it doesn't tell me anything about your alignment. Looks like I hit a dead end here.

[BlackVoid]

@nancy, it's possible you are right. It's not a read I'm very confident in. I'm currently on page 14 reading through CogMachine's push on srceenplay and it's actually something I agree with. Srceenplay's vote on Pine in 282 was bad. Then the bandwagon hop onto you in 339 when he was pressured was pretty bad too. I initially townread his 77 and 147 because his trying to get whymafia to vote Loopdan as bait seems genuine. But then he votes WhyMafia in 166 seemingly because WhyMafia hopped on the Loopdan bandwagon which doesn't sit right with me because he himself is bandwagoning a lot.

[BlackVoid]

[...]in general[...]

That's fine. You can use activity to be suspicious of someone but don't use it as the reason.
Just want to make sure that's understood.

In my first newbie game we ran up someone for lurking and skating by. They were at L-1 for over a day. Never came a defended themselves. We all saw them online multiple times. Finally we said f it. Lynched them. The doctor. Didn't really do anything wrong except didn't post when we wanted them to.

With this in mind, it makes zero sense for him to vote Pine because it's easier to lynch Pine while Pine was lurking.

[BlackVoid]

@nancy, I agree with you on him looking like he was trying to draw out WhyMafia into voting Loopdan. I also agree that there seems to be more behind-the-scenes thought process there than he's letting on. I'm trying to weigh that against his opportunistic voting. I guess I'm finding it hard to get reads on everyone before the time we have left and trying to explore all options.

The only scumread I have any amount of confidence in is Pine. I'd appreciate if you could go back over Pine's posts with your knowledge of his previous meta and let me know what you think. Is there a reason you are dissuaded from lynching him other than that the lynch seems too easy?

[BlackVoid]

I thought it was all ready clear I wasn't actively trying to lynch Pine.

So, your vote was what, just a "reaction test" to see who else jumped on? What about your vote on nancy?

[BlackVoid]

Void I vastly prefer a Chronicle lynch today ftr.

I don't have a strong opinion on Chronicle. I'll look into him. Mind linking me to the posts you find scummiest?

[BlackVoid]

I think WM has been equally as opportunistic tbh

Mind explaining?

Tomorrow.
Right now your townish.
Don't sidetrack with the short time left.

This looks ridiculously like a partner interaction between WhyMafia and srceenplay. Gotta look into that as well while I catch up.

[BlackVoid]

That's a probabilistic argument and it fails in light of the fact that we have information to work with. In fact ... I would go so far as to say that how Nancy responds to my request will have a HUGE impact on how the rest of this plays out. Try to read between the lines BlackVoid. If scum is who I think it is, I'm quite sure they will see what you didn't.

Like do you think this post comes from scum!Drixx?

Granted he hasn't elaborated on this point so I don't really know what his thought process is here.

Why would he not tell us who he thinks scum is in this context when it looks like he's about to be lynched?

[BlackVoid]

Src/Loop
Drixx/WM/Tess

Lynch preference from top to bottom, left to right are in no particular order.

Well I'd prefer Src and Loop, but like I could compromise on the other 3 if there's anything compelling between now and deadline.

This seems like you are okay with pretty much any lynch outside of StealthyNoodle. Why?

[BlackVoid]

Also, if I flip scum, what would you do D2

What exactly is the point of asking this question if you know you are going to flip town. I could potentially see town asking it to someone that suspects them to read that person but you are asking confirmed town what she would do if you flipped scum...

[BlackVoid]

I've seen this kind of slip quite a lot. He's scum.

I will put my own skin on the line even. I'm that sure.

I approach mafia from a rationalist perspective. Day one is literally the worst ever for me because of the near total lack of actual KNOWN info.

@Drixx, these two quotes don't really add up for me. Why would a rational player who is aware that D1 is the worst ever for him put his own skin on the line for a D1 scumread?

[BlackVoid]

Okay, so I ISO'd Chronicle and read through the quotewall and I'm still null on the slot. I didn't find the defense of Noodle particularly scummy. It could easily be town that had a townread. I was mildly suspicious of Chronicle leaving their options open entirely and being ready to sheep nancy's Pine scumread. That combined with Drixx's latest post probably indicates that they're not partnered but I wouldn't bank on it. I re-read Chronicle's towngame again and the tone does seem to be a lot different than here and Chronicle's responses that the game was short doesn't really address that. I'm conflicted.

[BlackVoid]

Some things just always come from scum. See it enough times and even I will catch it.

Okay then, quote me the last five times a similar thing happened.

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, that's somewhat bizarre. I searched for instances of "gut" in his ISO and the only gutreads mentioned were after I pointed that out.

So, who do you think fits best as a partner to Chronicle?

[BlackVoid]

There was something bugging me about Drixx. I finally found what I was looking for. A recently completed game I spectated. Here is a Drixx post:

So what you're saying is that only your pride matters. You realize that we've been mislynched ONCE EVER, and that's featured in our signature.

Individually, we also both pride ourselves on not being mislynched.

The slot was scum so he may have been lying but I don't know why scum would lie about something like this. Assuming that's the truth, Drixx's play here doesn't come across like the play of someone who's almost mislynched and (seemingly) takes pride in that.

[BlackVoid]

*almost never mislynched.

[BlackVoid]

It could Chronicle/Drixx I suppose doing last minute distancing. Agree that his interaction with StealthyNoodle seems too blatant to be partners.

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, I read it and his play here matches with his philosophy that if he's universally scumread, he should be lynched so he doesn't become a distraction or the game-winning mislynch for scum. He's done nothing to try to shake off the wagon on him or to try to survive. Maybe leaving Drixx alive another day to sort him out isn't a bad idea.

But I'm still not completely sold on Chronicle. I may be willing to switch my vote there. But I'd like to hear your thoughts on that src/WhyMafia interaction. Almost felt like "hey buddy, let's take the Drixx mislynch today and stop drawing attention to yourself."

[BlackVoid]

After reading Pine's ISO again, I think I want to stick with Drixx. So much of what he said feels like regurgitated content. Where are we on the votecount?

[BlackVoid]

StealthyNoodle's "I won't get lynched" seems like weird confidence for a newbie to have though.

[BlackVoid]

But Drixx's push there and being "tempted to put him at L-1" is also weird. Seems like a way to out a PR. If Drixx thought Noodle was the doc, this would be a good way to confirm that and nightkill him.

[BlackVoid]

I don't know. Someone should post an updated VC. I'd do it if I wasn't fully focused on catching up.

[BlackVoid]

Here's an updated VC

Drixx (L-2): BlackVoid, Loopdan, StealthyNoodle
StealthyNoodle (L-4): Drixx
Srceenplay (L-3): nancy, WhyMafia
Not voting: TesXX, Chronicle, Srceenplay

[BlackVoid]

Okay, we don't have the time or numbers to lynch anyone else so let's just assume a Drixx lynch and check for likely partners and people who are scum if he's town. nancy can hammer when we're done.

I'm really not seeing the scumread on Loopdan. I looked over his ISO multiple times now. If Pine is town, I suppose he could have been pushing a mislynch but attacking the IC and the most active player in the game seems like an odd strategy for scum to take especially for a low-content player like Loopdan.

I still have a hard time seeing TesXX as scum. I'm not a fan of his recent lurking, lack of strong pushes, and a readslist that basically called everyone some shade of scum. But the persistent early push to get the BP claim out seems town-motivated. I guess I could see a pre-game interaction in the scum PT where he goes "I'll suggest the BP/Tracker claim strategy for towncred" and then finds that he doesn't have much else to do but on balance, I think he's town.

WhyMafia and Srceenplay are the toughest to sort. A lot of their posts come across as contradictory and not directly advancing a town wincon but they seem somewhat new so I don't know how much of that is alignment indicative.

I don't know who fits best as a Drixx partner. If Drixx is town, I'd look into StealthyNoodle the most. Possibly Chronicle as well.

[BlackVoid]

No, that wasn't a typo. I have a hard time seeing him as scum. But I backup modded a recent game where he was scum so I'll look over that again. Here is his ISO and here is the mafia PT if you want to take a look.

Also, what do you think of the possibility that WhyMafia and Srceeenplay are distancing?

[BlackVoid]

How would you know Mini is asleep? If you know them irl, do you know when they'll be up?

[BlackVoid]

But that was a good move. If Drixx is town, he can say that and we can re-assess knowing that he's town.

[BlackVoid]

Ftr I don't think town!Drixx points towards scum!Loopdan. I think scum!Drixx does.

Can you go over this more? You think Loopdan was bussing?

[BlackVoid]

Sorry Drixx. I'm getting dinner right now but I'll look over the game in a bit. Agree that StealthyNoodle is most likely scum.

[BlackVoid]

I think Noodle, WhyMafia is the most likely scumteam as well.

[BlackVoid]

You could be bussing her idk.

Possible scum linking nancy to his partner.

[BlackVoid]

You didn't actually answer my 1259 though Chronicle. What was even the point of your post asking nancy what her reads would be if you were scum?

[BlackVoid]

Inb4 Drixx/Noodle scum theater and Pine broke his anti-bus meta for this newbie.

Considered this. Especially as he started off talking about how much he doesn't bus. Definitely should be looked into if Drixx is somehow scum trolling us (although I'm not optimistic given his twilight posting). It would definitely explain why he was reluctant to do much of anything this game because his lynch would "clear" StealthyNoodle.

[BlackVoid]

I tracked WhyMafia to me.

Good game.

[BlackVoid]

VOTE: WhyMafia

It's game over so you can drop the act. I'm conf-town.

[BlackVoid]

UNVOTE:

Okay, I was gambiting. I actually tracked Chronicle who went nowhere.

[BlackVoid]

It could still be WhyMafia. It's not like scum would be naive enough to give up but I had to try. It could still be Chronicle doing a no-kill gambit since there wasn't actually a kill last night. We still have a pool of six to analyze. I don't want to get overconfident. I'm going to look over the game more closely this day phase.

[BlackVoid]

TesXX, Loopdan, Chronicle, WhyMafia, Srceenplay, and StealthyNoodle.

[BlackVoid]

Here's the thing about the Pine/Drixx wagon: there was no counterwagon. I'd assume if Pine/Drixx's partner didn't want them to be lynched, they'd be co-ordinating in order to push a counterwagon. But the rest of the votes are just scattered around with no push for a viable counterwagon. I think it is unlikely that they'd just sit back and allow Drixx to be lynched. I'd expect either a bus or a push to save him. That's why I'm not as confident as nancy that we have this game wrapped up. But that could just be my cynicism and tendency to not crack open the champagne until the mod announces that we win because I'd hate to lose a game that we have a huge lead in. I don't think it's just my paranoia as Drixx basically allowed himself to be lynched which points to someone non-obvious being his partner. I'll re-read D1 again and post my thoughts on Pine's interactions with all six unconfirmed slots and I'd love to see everyone gamesolve as well. If you are a newbie and you are town, know that re-reading is important.

[BlackVoid]

I read Pine's ISO and it's not all that informative since there's literally only about one substantial post. He spends a lot of time pushing StealthyNoodle for attacking nancy which makes him likely town, his push against TesXX feels like he's throwing shade at a townie. He scumreads WhyMafia early and later on settles into a townread. Chronicle is static townread throughout. Loopdan is probably town because he was discrediting him by saying he had bad reads and his 424 trying to brush off src feels like a scum to town interaction. That still leaves me with WhyMafia and Chronicle as the most likely candidates. I think it'll be more informative to the reverse and go through through everyone's ISO and see

their

mentions of Pine and work from there.

@nancy, not saying I don't trust you, but I want to double-check all the possibilities and just in case we're wrong, have a lot more info for future day phases. Loopdan hasn't posted at all so I'd like to see what he has to say as well to solidify my read on him.

[BlackVoid]

@BV what do you think about scum!Chronicle nokilling?

It's possible. If Chronicle couldn't decide whether or not to believe nancy's claim, then he'd be reluctant to shoot either me or nancy. If I get doc'd and track him, that would be an instant loss.

[BlackVoid]

@TesXX, can you go over why you are scumreading Srceenplay? Which of WhyMafia and Srceenplay do you think is more likely to be scum and why?

[BlackVoid]

So, why can't it be Loopdan, or StealthyNoodle bussing Pine's slot or Chronicle no killing because he thinks nancy is a doc who would protect me and is afraid that I might track him N1?

[BlackVoid]

I'm hesitant to take stuff like "X doesn't bus" at face value because it's situational and this could be the game in which they bus to throw off people who don't expect it. Especially since nancy knows Pine doesn't bus, why wouldn't he use that to his advantage this time?

[BlackVoid]

I'd also like to know why you never put your vote down towards the end of day. You seemed to have Drixx as your preferred lynch but never actually voted him.

[BlackVoid]

But you listed out in 1167 why Drixx was your preferred lynch and he also seemed more viable than WM. How come that didn't influence your choice?

[BlackVoid]

That's not what you were doing at the end of D1 though. You were re-reading Chronicle's ISO (1284). How was that going to help you make your decision?

[BlackVoid]

Because I was going to see if there were any partner-like interactions between Chronicle and either Drixx or WhyMafia.

I have a hard time following this. I'm looking at the alternative scenario: that you are scum with Drixx, and when you saw me and nancy consider lynching Chronicle, you saw an opportunity to save Drixx and "went through" Chronicle's ISO so you could justify a vote there. That world looks more likely than the explanations you are giving.

Just walk me through it one more time. You didn't vote Drixx because you were undecided on which of Drixx/WM you want to lynch. So, instead of reading through their ISOs, you look over Chronicle's ISO to see if there are partner-like interactions, why? Didn't you already agree that Drixx and WM look like partners themselves in 1151? You also preferred a Drixx lynch and you also said that Drixx lynch influences the most number of reads so your vote really should have been on him end-of-day.

[BlackVoid]

I looked over TesXX's mentions of Pine/Drixx. He starts out by questioning why nancy townreads Pine so much, then questions Loopdan on why he scumreads Pine. He agrees with WhyMafia in 301 that lynching Pine might cause us to lose an important power role and wants to wait for a replacement. Mostly, he has the slot as null until 1151 where he says that Drixx is a scumlean, reasoning being that he went over Pine's wall again and Pine did seem to be trying to townread nancy. He adds that he could see a Pine/WhyMafia team that I mentioned if WhyMafia flipped scum. His perspective of the gamestate in 1167 seems very reasonable as well. I'm just concerned that his last minute ISO'ing Chronicle doesn't really make sense with the reads he gave and it seems more than a co-incidence that just when we were discussing Chronicle, he decides to ISO him. I'm pretty conflicted. Thoughts on this?

[BlackVoid]

I'm trying to figure out why TesXX was even scumreading WhyMafia in the first place. All his mentions of WhyMafia before 509 were positive. As he mentions in 519, this was apparently because he was re-reading WhyMafia's ISO without bias and the bulk of his suspicion is apparently because a post seems "forced" and because WhyMafia suggested that he be lynched. It's not a great reason by itself but he at least had a consistent suspicion towards WhyMafia which makes sense with his overall readlist and trying to decide between WhyMafia and Pine. Overall, I'm thinking TesXX is probably town. I like that early push for getting the BP and tracker claims too.

[BlackVoid]

Before I forget, this post has been bothering me for a while and is just an overall weird post:

Regarding Stealthy's post, I was only defending Pine bc lynching someone based on someone who is inactive is ridiculous.

I also defended the person Cog replaced

(albeit less so bc I was busy when they were trying to lynch him)

What's notable here is when he was accused of defending Pine, he jumps to say that he was defended another slot as well. Feels like he knows Pine is scum and is saying "oh, it isn't just Pine I defended, look I defended this townie as well." He also tries to distance himself from his Pine defense. The language he uses "I was only defending Pine becuase..." whereas a townie would be more likely to back up that defense and say that lynching Pine for being inactive is ridiculous. I'd expect him to re-iterate his reasoning, not distance from it. I'm not sure I'm articulating this right. Let me know if not.

[BlackVoid]

I would prefer replacing out as well.

[BlackVoid]

If Loopdan is actually going to post, I'd prefer him staying over replacing out. But a 4-day VLA after not posting anything today means he's completely absent for half the day phase. It seems we're divided. I think having an active player fill an empty slot is much better for the game.

[BlackVoid]

Slight FOS on TesXX and StealthyNoodle for that. Replacements usually offer a fresh perspective of the game so it's scum-sided to not want one.

[BlackVoid]

I did think that Drixx and WM were the scumteam, but I saw a Chronicle post that pinged me(1247)(and also I hadn't looked at Chronicle as much as I did with some of the other players) and so I wanted to read through Chronicle's ISO to see partner interactions that would make me reconsider anything.

What about 1247 pinged you?

[BlackVoid]

I'll have more thoughts after Alisae catches up and posts his reads. I'd like WhyMafia to actually posts thoughts on who he thinks is scum. Nothing he posted this day phase has looked like scumhunting.

[BlackVoid]

The way he treated Pine super early and then switched off to WhyMafia is fucking disgusting.

Which posts are you referring to?

[BlackVoid]

You know I miss Loopdan as well now.

[BlackVoid]

This is really frustrating. @nancy, after everything you said about wanting to teach newbies to play properly, fake-claiming a PR as a VT when you were widely suspected isn't something I can agree with.

If Alisae is fake-claiming doc as VT here, that's pretty suboptimal as well. You are not executing a brilliant plan to wifom scum. You are only adding noise and distractions to the game and making it more difficult to scumhunt. I just can't get behind someone replacing into a newbie game and fake-claiming their role which was why I said I missed Loopdan.

Anyways, I need to rethink this. If nancy is not confirmed town, that definitely puts her end-of-day casting around for any wagon outside of Drixx/Pine in a different light.

Both of you, please claim your real role. I want to lynch correctly today and end the game, not go around WIFOM circles for another few nights because you are trying to confuse scum.

[BlackVoid]

I was fine with nancy fake-claiming BP because I assumed she was the doc. That's actually optimal because there's no way anyone can counterclaim that. In fact, if she said "I'm either a doc or a BP," that would have been the best idea. When VTs start fake-claiming is when the game becomes more confusing to solve, not easier. And honestly, I'm a little annoyed.

[BlackVoid]

How am I messing up a newbie game when I'm trying to help the town win by directing the NK to a vt, which is exactly how you are supposed to play VT?

You direct NKs towards yourself as VT by playing well and being a threat to scum, not by fake-claiming a PR.

[BlackVoid]

How am I messing up a newbie game when I'm trying to help the town win by directing the NK to a vt, which is exactly how you are supposed to play VT?

You direct NKs towards yourself as VT by playing well and being a threat to scum, not by fake-claiming a PR.

Um...You're forgetting that my VT flip means you get another potential guilty or a clear. Let's say Srceen is lynched and he flips town (lol not going to happen), I would die, and you would either have a strong townbloc of {BV, nancy, and one other townie} or you get a guilty. Like, that's a game winning sinareo there.

I think most of my frustration stemmed from the fact that by fake-claiming, you are adding an additional variable from my POV. I now also need to consider whether you are town claiming truthfully, town fake-claiming and intending to take it back, or scum fake-claiming and intending to take it back later. If you look at it from the POV of someone who doesn't know your alignment, I hope you can see that you are making the game more complicated for them.

But anyways, we'll just have to agree to disagree theory-wise. I need to head to work so I'll come back and look over your srceenplay case later tonight. (Making a note to myself to see the links nancy posted of his games as well). Don't lynch before we discuss stuff obviously. I'm nowhere near ready to end the game.

[BlackVoid]

That was a lot to catch up on. I want to look into StealthyNoodle more before putting down a vote. I'm not convinced srceenplay is scum so would prefer not to hammer. Haven't decided where I want my vote actually. In case we're wrong, my track choice will be a surprise so probably best not to assume anything just yet.

[BlackVoid]

BlackVoid, thoughts on WhyMafia not responding to our scumreads on him?

At this point, I think I've seen decently good towntells from Chronicle, Srceenplay, and TesXX. I'll point out what these are after a little while though because I'd rather evaluate the rest of the players first. If it's not you, it's probably Al or WM.

[BlackVoid]

For what it's worth, I absolutely care about a perfect win. One of the reasons I love playing mafia is to test the limits of how accurate I can possibly be. I keep a record in my wiki of every lynch that occurs when I'm in the game and calculate the percentage of days I've lynched scum, divided by the total opportunities I had to lynch scum. Right now, it's only 66% so nothing to write home about but it's enticing/fun to see how high I can bring it up. Sort of like trying to get the best score in a video game. And of course, newbie games count. The process is only relevant as long as it gives you consistently good results. Results are what actually count in my opinion. I think our approaches to mafia are pretty different but we collaborated on the D1 lynch pretty well so no reason we can't do it again. I'd just rather drag out D2 and end the game today than quicklynch and drag the game out for several days. In the long run, taking our time today might actually end the game faster. @nancy, I'd love to hear the distinctions in your reads on WhyMafia, Alisae, Noodle. It wouldn't hurt to have a little more confidence in a single read than just "one of these people are scum and we're in autowin."

[BlackVoid]

Not saying you haven't done the work. I'm just saying I'm not ready to lynch yet because

I

haven't done the work. I read your post on the associations. My worry is that if you and Pine know each other so well, it's very possible he decided that he would bus in this game to throw you off. He even started out the game talking about how much he doesn't bus so it's clear he expects you to think he doesn't bus. That's the main reason I think StealthyNoodle should be examined more before we cross him off the list. Drixx lying down and taking the lynch is something that adds to this theory. The lynch wasn't set in stone until the very end of the day and I think if Drixx was partnered with WhyMafia, he had nothing to lose by fighting tooth and nail to dodge the lynch. It's only if his partner was set for the game that he wouldn't want to disturb the prevailing town consensus. As for Alisae, I'm fine voting him if we both conclude that he's scum. I don't think anyone's unlynchable.

[BlackVoid]

I don't trust Chronicle. Several players don't acknowledge me as town. You gotta take other's views into consideration.

Why don't you trust Chronicle?

[BlackVoid]

Hi, who are you tracking tonight if it's not me. If I'm conftown, that's going to help you out a lot, just saying.

In case we're wrong, my track choice will be a surprise so probably best not to assume anything just yet.

[BlackVoid]

Let's not worry about who I'm going to track. I actually haven't decided and don't plan to post it in thread when I do.

[BlackVoid]

Then how can you figure out if scum is trying to play around your track?

You are almost assuming that the point of a track is to get a clear whereas my primary goal is to end the game by tracking scum to the kill. Why the assumption?

[BlackVoid]

BlackVoid your insistence on anarchy grosses me out and if you refuse to commit to tracking Aslan tonight then I have no choice but to lynch him.

I just don't see how it would help for me to commit to tracking an arbitrary player. If it's because he's your friend and you two would be great at solving the game together, you dying tonight makes it not relevant. Because of the roles we drew here, you're unfortunately not going to get the chance to gamesolve with Aslan as both conf-town because the only way he becomes conf-town is if I track him, he goes nowhere and you wind up dead. If you could, I wouldn't have minded actually.

I think I'm probably going to choose based on who's most likely to be scum and if I'm wrong, whose alignment I most want confirmed D3 so I can end the game then.

[BlackVoid]

Not confident yet in anyone being scum so I'm reading through individual ISOs again.

@Srceenplay, got a couple of questions for you based on how you handled D1: Firstly, I don't really understand where 283 is coming from. What were you hoping to achieve with that vote on Pine because "he's not around the defend himself?" You seem unusually confident that Pine is scum in 306. Why would you kill him of all people? 323 makes no sense at all nor does suddenly moving off of Pine onto nancy in 339.

I also thought these two posts were weird:

Are you trying to say Pine is not Mafia?

So, WhyMafia, you don't think Pine is scum?

Why are you randomly asking people whether they don't think Pine is mafia? Seems like an informed read where you already know he's mafia. You don't seem to actually be scumreading him anyways.

I also thought 415 seems like overcompensating for a partner not responding to his pressure and wanting to make sure Pine doesn't ignore him. 419 is a fairly standard questions scumbuddies without daytalk ask each other. Mild coaching.

The contradiction between 841 and 900 is odd and I'm not sure how anyone can legitimately hold both views. Some explanation here would be good.

I didn't find the eventual vote on Drixx particularly scummy. He just asks which of Drixx or Chronicle to vote and votes Drixx on my recommendation. Then says he's a D2 guy. But after a scumflip, he doesn't seem all that active or enthusiastic which I'd expect from a "D2 guy." 1110 is an odd amount of confidence for someone who is only on Drixx because he's sheeping me. I don't have any issues with his eventual vote on Drixx for wanting to make sure we get a lynch before deadline.

I think it's possible Srceenplay is scum. The fact that we concensus-lynched a lurker-scum on D1 isn't giving me a lot of helpful reads. I actually think looking at the nancy "mislynch" wagon would be more informative. To see who pushed her for bad reasons so I'll go over that once I'm done looking at Pine/Drixx interactions.

[BlackVoid]

With that said, I actually liked several things about Srceenplay's D2 play. His case on WhyMafia and setting it up as himself vs WhyMafia makes a lot more sense as town with a scumread than scum needing to outlast four townies (2162). I really liked 2151. References to what they'll say at endgame is the sort of thing I've seen town say to townreads/conf-town hard-pushing them but takes a bit of ingenuity/cunning to say as scum. Combining this with the end-of-D1, I actually think it's more likely than not, Srceenplay is town. But I do want all my questions answered though so I can decide whether to set him aside as town or keep looking.

[BlackVoid]

I have a tough time seeing Loopdan as scum. What I said in 1099 and 1307 still applies.

Spoiler:

Him trying to get you and Pine to read each other also felt town motivated to me because observing how two people who are friends interact with each other is pretty good way to get reads. For example, when I was reading Pine's posts to you, it felt like he was going out of his way to appease you so I concluded that he was likely scum and you were likely town. I didn't agree with Loopdan's conclusion that you were both scum but I could see his "sorting you two through how you talk to each other" a good approach for him to take.

I'm really not seeing the scumread on Loopdan. I looked over his ISO multiple times now. If Pine is town, I suppose he could have been pushing a mislynch but attacking the IC and the most active player in the game seems like an odd strategy for scum to take especially for a low-content player like Loopdan.

His entrance in 11 is fairly pro-town both in objectives as well as tone. Pushing the BP-claim strategy as hard as he did in 98 also feels genuine. It didn't seem like he was using it as an excuse for lack of content and he was in fact making himself the center of attention by taking such a hard stance on it which he justifies in 103 as getting it over with so we can move on. I think the rationale that scum in his previous game decided to oppose the strategy was a good one too. Looking over the game he's referring to (Newbie 1781), one of the scum (rb) posts reasoning that's pretty much exactly similar to nancy's reasoning here. So, I perfectly understand why Loopdan went after nancy. The vote on Srceen in 109 and reasoning in 104 flows consistently with the rest of his thoughts too. I liked 187 in light of his later comments about reading people who know each other. Have a tough time seeing 252 coming from scum. I don't really understand the vote on Pine in 275 but I can see why he'd be okay with a nancy lynch given his previous comments and experience with rb. Can also see why he'd read TesXX as "screaming town" in 276 given early posts of TesXX pushing the BP-claim strat along with him. Less sure on Noodle but I can understand that read too. I thought 792 was a very good observation. Moving back to Drixx after nancy claim makes sense with his previous reads and doesn't feel like he knows too much and telling nancy to stop the conf-bias in 1118 and 1130 also feels like annoyed town. Possibly the only concern I'd have is the low activity but given he was legitimately busy and actually replaced out, that's a non-issue.

All in all, I'm pretty confident Loopdan-slot/Alisae is town. Alisae has the "chatroom-type" playstyle as both alignments that's hard for me to read but there's a lot I'd bet on Loopdan being town. If anyone disagrees with me here, please explain why. I'm especially looking at nancy, you seem intent on getting me to track Alisae but I'm positive he's town and if I'm wrong, then show me where I'm going wrong because I'm missing it entirely.

[BlackVoid]

Kill me now.

Yeah, you are going to have me out here. If we can agree on Alisae-town, that leaves me free to track someone scummier. His predecessor was one of the towniest slots in the game.

[BlackVoid]

So, here's where I'm currently at: Definitely town: Alisae. Probably town: Srceenplay, TesXX. I'm going to look over StealthyNoodle and WhyMafia again and hopefully Aristophanes will have caught up by then.

[BlackVoid]

I think the last scum is between one of your three. All three of you are people I need to look over. What are

your

reads currently?

[BlackVoid]

It's that elephant avatar.

Out of all the people that attacked you, Loopdan's reasons seemed the most genuine and easiest to understand. I don't get what Noodle or WM or Srceenplay or Chronicle were going on about but Loopdan's reasons made sense. What part do you disagree with?

[BlackVoid]

Now, when you say "caught up," what do you mean exactly? Because I'm not reading 100 pages upon replacement! I wouldn't do that in any game!

Why would you replace in to a game you had no intention of reading?

[BlackVoid]

Proof? The entire benefit of replacing in as town is that you get to read the previous happenings of the game from an unbiased perspective.

[BlackVoid]

Hey WhyMafia - you said you played on another forum, right? If you don't mind, link me to the forum and tell me what your username is.

[BlackVoid]

^I'm pretty certain this would be against the rules. He linked it, but it got removed.

No it isn't. It got removed because he talked about an ongoing game. I'm not asking for game links unless they are completed. Just the name of the forum and his username there.

[BlackVoid]

@StealthyNoodle, can you explain your Pine vote in 633? Up until this point, you didn't seem to have much suspicion of Pine other than your "shredding Pine's wall" post.

[BlackVoid]

@Srceenplay, here's an easy-to-respond list of questions:

1) Why did you vote Pine in 283 with the reasoning "he's not around the defend himself?" You never explained this properly.

2) Where did your scumread on Pine come from in 306 to the point where you said you would kill him?

3) Nothing about 323 makes any sense and you dodged the question when people asked you to clarify why you voted Pine.

4) Why did you suddenly move from Pine to nancy in 339 i.e. what specific reasons were you scumreading nancy for?

5) In the quoted I showed of 333 and 341, why are you fishing around asking people whether they were trying to say that Pine isn't mafia? It almost seems like you knew Pine was mafia and you were trying to make them look bad by associating them with Pine.

6) In 841, you agreed with me that doc should cc nancy. Then in 900, you say that we all agreed that doc wouldn't cc. Why did you contradict yourself?

7) How did you have so much confidence in the Drixx lynch in 1110 that you say "one down" like he's definitely flipping scum despite your only reasoning for voting him being that you were sheeping me?

[BlackVoid]

Would could lynch TesXX. The way he suggested nancy to be a doc while she was fakeclaiming 1-shot bp before the roleswap stuff happened doesn't exactly look the best?

Wouldn't he shoot nancy N1 if he thought that? That actually points against him being scum not towards.

[BlackVoid]

He didn't bring up that idea till D2.

Are you saying he only figured it out after he tried to kill me N1 and it failed?

[BlackVoid]

@TesXX, how do you go from here:

since nancy is almost definitely BP, I highly doubt it.

to knowing that nancy was a doc D2? Was that entirely based on the lack of a kill?

[BlackVoid]

As far as StealthyNoodle is concerned, I like 650 and I think he describes Pine's wall fairly accurately and I could see it coming from the perspective of a townie unimpressed with the IC who went after him. I also very much like 654 and 659. I'm a little weirded out by the soft PR claim in 721 and I don't see why a newbie playing his first game would assume he won't get lynched. @StealthyNoodle, if you have experience playing mafia on any other sites, I'd like to see it to compare. Drixx's 723 is a pretty strong indicator towards Noodle-town though. It almost seems like Drixx is trying to figure out if Noodle is the Doc or the BP because of his "I won't get lynched" soft-claim and is planning to put him at L-1 to find out which it is. He hides it under the guise of saying that Noodle is showing "bravado." Unless Drixx is deviously good at manipulating fake-interactions, this as good as locks StealthyNoodle as town. I find 737 to be fairly understandable and he seems to think that nancy was scum for jumping onto the Pine push which explains his switching over from Pine to nancy.

Will also note that I thought Chronicle's defense of StealthyNoodle and attack of nancy came across as genuine right before the point where I replaced in.

I also forgot to mention: Loopdan continuing to push nancy because he thought StealthyNoodle was a PR is a pretty big towntell.

I'm going to take a break and start catching up from page 34 onwards. Unless something hugely changes, my reads from towniest to scummiest are Alisae -> StealthyNoodle -> Chronicle/Aristo -> TesXX -> Srceenplay -> WhyMafia. The most evidence points to WhyMafia as scum. But there's something about StealthyNoodle's D2 posting where it seemed like he was buddying me so I'll try to explore that as well as wait on Src's responses and Aristo just getting himself into the game and posting reads.

[BlackVoid]

None of you got it right but that's okay! {Srceenplay, WhyMafia}
{Tes}
{}
{Aristophanes}
{Aslan, Noodle}

Just to be perfectly clear, the top is the scummiest and bottom is the towniest, right? If so, we're pretty much on the same page.

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, pretty much.

[BlackVoid]

Your play is null. Why are you so interested in what I think of your play anyways? You already know my alignment so I can't see it being a useful question to sort me.

I do want to know where your townread on WhyMafia comes from though. He seems the most likely to be scum and you haven't made any push towards him at all.

[BlackVoid]

But why is it relevant that you don't understand it? What exactly are you worried about from a town-POV? You know I'm town and I'm correctly townreading you. Your questions are actually weirding me out because it seems you are worried about whether I have some secret scumread of you and intend to track you tonight and you are probing to see the basis of my townread.

Can you link WhyMafia's towny posts?

[BlackVoid]

Do you think I am votelocked on my townread?

Nah, just kidding. Our reads are basically opposite to each other. Either one of us is wildly wrong or we're both nullreading the scum.

[BlackVoid]

@Alisae, what I suspect is that you are trying to feel out whether I'm truly townreading you or whether I'm just saying I am and plan to track you to catch you unawares. If you can be sure that I'm genuinely townreading you, you can safely kill nancy tonight knowing you won't be tracked. If you think I'm going to track you, you HAVE to no kill, you don't have any other choice. Regardless of what that might imply.

The only town motivation for all the questions you're asking me is to figure out my alignment - something you don't need to do in this game.

I don't understand it because I don't get why you aren't trying to engage nancy on why you think she's wrong and you're right. Not to mention she has experience with me, whereas this is your first game with me. Wouldn't it make a bit more sense to atleast attempt to hear out nancy and try to explain to her why she's wrong?

This sidesteps my question a bit. I'm not asking why you don't understand it. I'm asking why it's relevant. To phrase it better: If confirmed town is correctly reading you as town, why do the reasons matter?

[BlackVoid]

WhyMafia is Town because 2141 and 2494, Srceenplay is Town because 2371. Tes is Town because he ignored Pine's request to stop the Tracker claim. Ari is possibly scum Chronicle flipped his reads momentarily and tried to push a CW with Drixx in 902. Aslan may be scum because he's given up and town!Aslan doesn't replace into nancy's last game at near autowin and give up. Noodle is scum because his reads are fake, his push on Pine looks like a blatant bus and is the only actual scumhunting he's done all game and because Drixx's push on him looks like bussed!scum distancing.

2141 is not a WhyMafia post. 2371 isn't a towntell because WhyMafia specifically said D1 that he offered himself to be lynched because no mafia would do it. Meaning he is expecting a death-wish to be read as town and for people to go "no way he says that as scum." He didn't say that expecting to be lynched, he said that expecting to be townread. How is Srceenplay town simply for voting WhyMafia? You're just messing with me, right? I see your point on Chronicle though. Aslan's latest posts are weirding me out so I'll need to rethink this.

[BlackVoid]

Putting Srceenplay at L-1 and saying he's fine with a lynch on himself seems disingenuous. Why even suggest that when your top suspect is at L-1?

[BlackVoid]

@Alisae - I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm working against nancy rather than with her. 2605 is probably the weirdest post I've read so far in this game. I thought we were working together fine towards the end of D1. D2 was different because I obviously didn't agree with nancy's assessment that this was auto-win nor her reads. But I don't think I've "pushed" for any lynches today. In fact, I was trying to get nancy to explain why she disagreed with my reads so we could hash out the differences and probably improve our reads collectively. People taking the game for granted and assuming auto-win is one of my pet peeves (see Mini Normal 1838 for an example).

It almost seems like you are saying disagreeing with nancy is the same as "disregarding" nancy's reads which are completely different things.

I'm not sure why you think I'm teaching newbies that individual play is better than teamplay. The only thing I can think of is my keeping my track target secret.

This entire post feels like you are talking out of your ass.

@nancy, I wouldn't mind hearing your opinion on whether you think I've been trying to work with you and whether the post that Aslan made accurately reflects the gamestate. I think he's bullshitting but I could be seeing it from a biased viewpoint.

[BlackVoid]

Nothing you are saying is making any sense though. I don't understand how you can read the game and come to conclusions that you did.

[BlackVoid]

Like, let's also add you ruined a great fucking moment of syncronization where me and nancy MUTUALLY agreed to role swap to try to bait a night kill to give you a night to actually clear someone.

And I'm talking OUT OF MY FUCKING ASS WHEN I AM TRYING TO ENCOURAGE TEAMWORK.

If you honestly believe teaching newbies to fake-claim is a good idea, then I don't think we're going to see eye to eye here.

[BlackVoid]

I would like to lynch Noodle for reasons already stated. Do either of you have any reason to townread him?

Yeah, I explained it in 2585.

[BlackVoid]

I think a new town player would expect an experienced IC to correctly read him as town and when the IC makes a long post calling him scum, the "this is bullshit" reaction is a natural one to have. I don't discount a scum-Noodle distancing from his partner at all. But I think the arguments he uses would be slightly different, perhaps focusing on specific reasons and details rather than the blanket "he's not seeing me as town so he's scum." StealthyNoodle's reaction betrayed an expectation that the IC would understand his viewpoints; something he would approach completely differently as scum. I think a newbie scum suggesting to his partner that he's experienced, he should be better than this and he should be seeing my viewpoints is an odd angle to take. But a completely natural way for a newbie town to critically evaluate the IC's posting whose alignment he doesn't know. I think you are letting the fact that 737 is an attack against you color your views a bit. From a third-person standpoint, it looks genuine to me. If Drixx was hesitant to bus, he'd have a wider pool of suspects. But he pretty much locked in to StealthyNoodle from the moment he replaced in which tells me that IF Stealthy is his partner, he has no qualms about bussing. I just felt that Drixx trying to find an excuse to out Noodle's potential PR fit better.

[BlackVoid]

The fact that the only time Noodle has actually scumhunted or done anything all game came on a out-of-the-blue push on Pine which he quickly abandoned and never really followed up is not something I want to overlook.

Actually it wasn't out of the blue. Here's the chain of events: 1. Noodle opens the game by voting you. 2. Pine wanting to buddy you takes advantage of this, hard-townreads you and throws a bunch of shade on Noodle in his long wall. 3. Noodle has a "wtf, the IC is scum!" reaction to it and pushes back hard against Pine.

When you look at it that way, it's not like Noodle had a moment of brilliant scumhunting catching Pine and then fading out. Pine forced the issue because he saw Noodle attacking you and took the opportunity to push there.

[BlackVoid]

Not really. Until recently, I had Noodle in my POE pool and re-read with the hope that I'd find a smoking gun. But changed my mind and felt he was town upon a re-read.

With that said, there are a couple things that bother me: the first is that I had a distinct impression Noodle was trying to buddy me today. The second is that I think Drixx laying down and eating the lynch suggests that his partner is non-obvious.

[BlackVoid]

Nah, it totally felt like towny buddying which is why I brought it up as something that worried me!

[BlackVoid]

He pushed then voted Pine like 250 posts after the wall.

This is actually a good point. I wonder why it took so long for him to push back. I was assuming that he just wanted to evaluate Pine objectively but I'm going to have to read this through again.

[BlackVoid]

Except that if Noodle is scum he wasn't laying down at all? And Noodle is kind of non-obvious considering most of us were ruling him out due to Pine voting him?

Yeah, I was agreeing with you here. Noodle being non-obvious is what gave me pause on my Noodle townread.

[BlackVoid]

Mind linking the post for me? And yeah, I agree that re-reading the game is the best way to solve it. For some reason, I find it difficult to find partners when scum are lynched early. Probably because the information that we have to work with is limited.

[BlackVoid]

I looked through a scum-Loopdan game (Newbie 1751) and it pretty much destroyed my townread on the slot completely. In that game Loopdan's partner Deimos knew a townie and Loopdan spends a lot of time trying to get them to read each other so I know this is something he'd be able to fake. He also pushes a claimed PR which I took to be a towntell here but may not be. I need to re-read his posts again and see if I still feel the same way. I'll maybe look at another one (Newbie 1762) as well.

[BlackVoid]

I'd like to know if Noodle actually pre-wrote that post and why. Did he mention this anywhere?

[BlackVoid]

Re-interpreting Loopdan's ISO with knowledge of his scum meta, I still like his push for the BP-claim. I'm not really sure why he'd vote Pine in 275. This was before Pine's massive wall. I don't like 285 where he seemed to imply that he voted Pine for multipurpose reasons. 367 feels like the sort of thing I'd say as scum. I really don't like 487. From my limited experience with Loopdan, the amount of detail and waffling in that post feels uncharacteristic for him. I also think it's weird that he didn't notice Pine buddying nancy in his big wall and just seems to focus on them as a pair. It should be exceedingly obvious to someone as intuitive as Loopdan that Pine's wallpost pointed heavily to Pine-scum, nancy-town. I'm not fully sure I understand or agree with his 528. It seems fairly arbitrary to me. His 536 was weird too. I could see that WhyMafia post coming from either alignment but Loopdan seems rather sure that it was a scum post. I don't understand or agree with anything at all that he said in 572. I have similar problems with his 662 that I do with most of his other posts. For someone who had great success getting forcing people who know each other to provide reads on each other, I think him missing Pine's buddying of nancy in his wallpost is still a concern and I think Loopdan should have picked up on that. 686 could go either way. It makes a decent amount of sense as town but could also be an excuse for him to vote WhyMafia over his partner Pine if he was scum. After saying that he would vote WhyMafia, Pine, or nancy, it's interesting that after Pine is replaced, he switches from WhyMafia to nancy. I don't like 815 because I don't understand why nancy "secretly scumreading" Pine is so unbelievable to him. I saw that nancy-post as a strong towntell and from my past experience with Loopdan, I've tended to agree with the things he found townish/scummy. Loopdan's argument in 821 feels like a complete misinterpretation of nancy's post. nancy meant to say that you can't dance with a scum if they don't think you are townreading them but made a typo. That was obvious to me. I'm not sure what to make of Loopdan missing that. Either conf-biased town or scum just pushing the read that's convenient to him and finding any possible reason to push it through. 827 is a bad post because he's trying to potentially get confirmed town mislynched. He did the same thing in his first scumgame. Then he unvotes nancy, sees the Drixx wagon the following day and commits to voting. The next day he puts down a vote. 1090 gave me weird gut-pings and while 1118's "blame the victim" posting could come from egoistic town, it's somewhat more likely to come from scum who are trying to justify their pushes by calling the person who was lynched/had to claim scummy. It might as well be Loopdan/Alisae's slot that I could be misreading all along.

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, that was a ridiculously long paragraph. I'm usually better at formatting.

I think if someone bussed Pine, it's gotta be Loopdan because his vote was the one that didn't cause Pine to be lynched when he otherwise wouldn't be. Loopdan spent a lot of time having Pine in his null to scum reads but mostly pushed you and WhyMafia as his primary pushes. The Drixx vote only came after I replaced in and the lynch was set in stone. It's not like someone else would have been lynched and Loopdan's vote swayed the lynch. I also think Loopdan burned most of his credibility pushing you and vaguely tying you to Pine that when you claimed, he didn't have much of a choice but to bus.

[BlackVoid]

Well, it's mostly Alisae's recent posts that made me wonder if I was wrong about Loopdan so I went and checked his scum meta. His posting was remarkably similar to here and even the arguments he used were similar.

How does this affect your read on Alisae now given that they're the same slot?

[BlackVoid]

If you actually read Aslan's post closely, I don't think he's been trying to get us to be cohesive at all. I think he is trying to manufacture strife where there isn't any. I was always under the impression that we collaborated on the Drixx lynch and spent a reasonable amount of time on D1 trying to work out who the scum were. We have disagreed on several occasions but that's natural for any two players conf-town or not. His post is all about him. He wants me to talk to you to convince you why he's town so the three of us can work together. Obviously this is advantageous to him since he's not confirmed town.

I agree that town as a whole has not been working together but that's more a case of the newer players just waiting for the conf-towns to agree on who to lynch while not really pushing forward their own reads or analysis very much. Most of all though, his post while filled with "righteous" anger is actually just factually inaccurate.

Fact is it seems like you're disregarding their reads completely. Like, you're trying to work against them. And I REALLY do not get that.

I don't see the point of this. Am I supposed to agree with you that Aslan was scum? It doesn't make sense for him to have such an issue with me townreading him.

You see more interested in pushing your own reads rather then working with nancy to find out who is scum together.

This is just flat-out not true. I haven't pushed any lynch or voted anyone and have spent a lot of time enquiring about your reads so it's unlikely that he'd come to this conclusion if he was reading stuff even since he replaced in.

You're focusing on your own individual play rather then teamplay.

This is just a really vague statement with no basis in reality.

And that's bad. Because ultimately Mafia is a TEAM game. You NEED to identify who the other townies are, and you need to discuss reads with them, and try to solve the game WITH your fellow townies. You aren't doing that, you're just pushing your own reads and not really giving a fuck about everything else. Atleast nancy is trying to engage people and trying to work with them. You're basicly teaching newbies that individual play is better then teamplay, and that's bad. Don't do that.

Here he's preaching to the choir about teamplay. Well yeah, I agree this is a teamgame. Nothing I did in this game suggested otherwise.

Let's take the game I just linked. In that game, town worked together and knew who they were. And because they knew who they were so easily, that finding scum was easy when you have a mobile unit. Why is this game not an autowin? Why hasn't scum conceded? Well it's easy. Whoever is scum knows that they still have a chance if the town mislynches people. This game is nowhere near autowin because town has yet to really work together. There's no team play involved here. So can we stop being idiots, twittling our thumbs thinking that scum is just going to come out of the fucking woods, work together to discuss reads, and lynch scum?

I don't really disagree with any of this but I don't see how it's relevant. It's almost like he's trying to find things to be angry at so he can genuinely ATE or get cred for "why would he try to piss off conf-town that's townreading him?" He's pretty trapped at this point if he thinks that I would track him and am being secretive about my scumread on him. That's why he probed me first to see whether I'm genuinely reading him as town or whether I secretly planned to track him all along and am pretending to townread him hoping to catch him out. If he suspects the latter, his only option is a no kill. If he's going to leave you alive for another day, he needs you to townread him and he needs to do something drastic.

I think if Alisae was town, he'd just be happy that at least one conf-town is townreading him, would probably assume that you (nancy) will come around at some point and try to work with me to figure out scum. Notice that he's actually trying to work with anything I said. He's spending more time trying to create an argument out of nothing.

[BlackVoid]

Buddying.
Is.
Not.
A.
Scumtell.

What makes it scummy is if it felt fake or not. Do you think the buddying felt fake?

Take this post for instance. I just said I was concerned that StealthyNoodle was buddying me. I obviously found it scummy or I wouldn't have said it in that context. This feels needlessly argumentative for something that's completely self-explanatory and already answered. That doesn't at all track with his supposed intention of wanting us to work together.

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, forgot to mention that. He was pretty quick to vote Noodle. I still think on balance Noodle is more likely town and it feels like a lynch a scum-Aslan would need if he hoped to make it through.

What actually pinged me in his opening is his townread on WhyMafia. If WhyMafia wasn't scum, I expected that whoever was scum would push elsewhere because the WhyMafia lynch already seemed set in stone and scum wouldn't want to burn any cred pushing it. They'd need to push the more difficult lynches later on so whiteknighting WhyMafia would probably have been the safer bet.

I'm still not entirely sure I buy WhyMafia as town though. I do see the links you posted where he suggested that he be lynched but in light of 546, it's not super-townie.

[BlackVoid]

The one thing giving me pause about Al-scum is that I think Loopdan would have figured out that you were a doc fake-claiming BP. I knew right from the minute you claimed it that you were a doc and Loopdan is certainly experienced enough to draw the same conclusion so he would have shot you.

[BlackVoid]

WhyMafia doesn't have any completed games on site. I asked him for links to his homesite but he hasn't been online since. Agree with his interactions being a bit too blatant. Not really sure what to make of it.

I did see you fake-claim VT. Loopdan's 922 seems to suggest that he believed your 1-shot BP claim though. He wouldn't have called it sub-optimal if he thought you were the doc because that would be optimal.

Also, something I forgot to mention earlier in my read of TesXX: here's his ISO in a recent scumgame. Part of the reason I was townreading him is the difference in tone. Here, even when he was talking about the setup, he came across as aggressive and confident. In his scumgame, he seemed really limp and hesitant. That's one reason I started townreading him and kept it up throughout. Wanted to make a note of it. Curious if you agree with my assessment.

So, current reads are something like this: StealthyNoodle -> TesXX -> Srceenplay -> Aristophanes -> WhyMafia -> Alisae.

Need to hear most from Aristo, and I need Src and WM to answer my questions. If I can solidly reads on all three, that would help me move forward.

[BlackVoid]

These are really weird posts though:

Are you trying to say Pine is not Mafia?

So, WhyMafia, you don't think Pine is scum?

Why would he be randomly asking people whether they don't think Pine is mafia? Seems like an informed read where he already know Pine is mafia.

[BlackVoid]

@Void

TRing TesXX for very incorrect reasons (obsession with setup rather than reads is scummy, not Towny).

Ftr Src's early game feels Town-motivated as fuck but this post makes me really side-eye him. If he doesn't have a TR on Tes here then this comment looks exactly like the kind of comment you make in dead threads where you're spoiled and talking about people's reads.

That was actually a quote from Pine's wall that src was responding to, not a post that src made himself.

[BlackVoid]

Src didn't actually say that though. He was quoting Pine without using the quote tag. Here's the original:

TRing TesXX for very incorrect reasons (obsession with setup rather than reads is scummy, not Towny).

[BlackVoid]

I can be around for a while. I have a weird sleep/work schedule right now. What's up?

[BlackVoid]

I'd like to summarize my issues with each slot and have you do yours and we go over as much as we can while we have this uninterrupted time together.

Sure but you should start. I did this for most slots over the past few hours.

StealthyNoodle: 2585 (you responded to this), 2639
TesXX: 1634. This was a while ago. 2701. Recent thoughts are that he is likely town. I'm probably placing a bit less emphasis on Pine's quote than you are and a bit more emphasis on the tone difference between his scumgame and this game than you but overall I think we're on the same page.
Srceenplay: 2427, 2428, 2566
Alisae: 2677, 2692

I haven't said much about WhyMafia and Chronicle/Aristophanes but I'm waiting for Aristo to catch up before digging into that and I'm still scumreading WhyMafia but am scumreading Alisae more. I'll go into these two later.

Pedit: I'm not really sure what to make of it.

[BlackVoid]

Pretty much agree with everything except Noodle. But I was actually somewhat worried about Noodle backing up my WhyMafia push today and wondered if it wasn't WhyMafia, whether it could be Noodle but I still think the interactions with Pine/Drixx overall point to him being town. The others, I'm just waiting on their responses.

Yeah, I thought the PR softing was weird too. But then again, I felt like Drixx thought he was softing too and was trying to out it.

[BlackVoid]

But then again, I felt like Drixx thought he was softing too and was trying to out it.

That wasn't my take. Why would Drixx want to out it? He'd just back quietly off and take the shot that Night. The way I was looking at it he was reading the room either unsure of whether pushing it to L-1 for a claim would look bad or whether he'd be able to strongarm the lynch, or he was hesitating on bussing.

But if Drixx thought StealthyNoodle was either doc or BP, that's not enough. Knowing which one he is is pretty crucial to night actions. If BP, then tracker should be shot. If Doc, then Doc should be shot first. So, he can't really back off and go to night while not knowing where to shoot.

[BlackVoid]

@Srceenplay, a couple of follow up questions: 1) Were you suspicious of Pine or not? You say that your vote on Pine was for fun and reactions but then you also say that if you could kill one person, you'd kill Pine and you ask two other people why they don't suspect Pine. 2) In your 841, what exactly did you like about my post and why? And how did you later assume that we agreed that Doc shouldn't claim? I need a bit more elaboration here than "I got lazy and wasn't paying attention. 3) Can you link me to previous games of yours where you made bs votes as town?

[BlackVoid]

Noodle claimed not BP, I doubt he'd have thought anything else.

That's actually a good point. I'll re-assess Noodle after I finish catching up.

[BlackVoid]

The fact that some of you or so easily persuaded by nancy's shit-reads saddens me.
Not a single one of you even went back to see her reason for voting me was, and check whether she was right or wrong.

Who are you referring to here specifically?

[BlackVoid]

Asking someone if the think "know" if Pine is mafia is because I was looking for reactions to suspicious people.

So, what you are saying is that you were suspicious of Pine and was looking to see how people reacted to you asking them if they don't suspect Pine? That doesn't make sense with your following post:

1 any time I was on Pine was not serious. I said I would heal my self(can't do that) and kill Pine. That shows lack of seriousness. I was fishing for reactions.

I still don't get it. Were you or weren't you suspicious of Pine? If you weren't serious as you say in this quote, why would you choose Pine specifically and ask people questions like whether they don't think Pine is mafia?

[BlackVoid]

I caught up on stuff that happened since I replaced in. nancy's moves so far have been really suboptimal if she's town. It's possible she claimed 1-shot BP as scum to bait a doc claim.

If that's the case, the doc counterclaiming at this point is actually the best idea.

Then we lynch nancy, the doc is nightkilled. Since there is no roleblocker and only one scum would be left, whoever I track tonight will be cleared. So, even if we mislynch D2 and I get killed N2, there will be a tracker clear on D3. I don't want to risk lynching nancy if she's actually a 1-shot BP and the value of keeping a doc hidden at this point isn't much higher than just counterclaiming.

If you are town, please don't fake-claim

(I don't know why this needs to be said but it's been happening so often in recent games I've played or modded in).

Agree

@Srceenplay, here is the quote in case you forgot. If you thought this was well-reasoned and logical, how can you suddenly forget about it and push the opposing viewpoint?

[BlackVoid]

Okay, I understand the quotes about Pine now. While it's possible you are fishing for reactions on your partner, I see as null so it's not a concern.

Still don't understand your thought process behind agreeing with my post. Why would you agree with a post and think it well-reasoned and logical if you weren't paying attention to it?

[BlackVoid]

@StealthyNoodle, based on the past few pages, did your reads change any? Did you find anything in my or nancy's analysis that you agreed or disagreed with and can you post an updated list of your reads with a sentence or two about each?

[BlackVoid]

We're fairly close to it. Plus I kinda lost motivation for this game, I made way too many mistakes and Idk how to rectify them at this point in the game.

I don't think Srceenplay is scum. I'd really like it if you are town for you to go over all other players in the game and consider alternatives.

I have stuff to say about StealthyNoodle but I want to wait for him to finish catching up.

[BlackVoid]

@WhyMafia, I asked this before but I think you missed my question. Can you link me to the forum you played mafia at and to your user profile? I want to look over your completed games. How many games have you completed as each alignment? How would you describe your town and scum play?

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, I've got a couple of things I wanted to discuss but I'd rather see you catch up naturally first.

[BlackVoid]

Also, I got to go to work in about 10-15 minutes. Are you going to be free around 7 hours from now? (@StealthyNoodle)

[BlackVoid]

Just wanted to ask why you were being so antagonistic towards nancy. That doesn't seem much better than Alisae randomly going off on me. I'm reading you as town and would like that read to be right so I can narrow things down but I'm slightly weirded out that you agreed with pretty much everything I said and lashed out at nancy. That's in addition to agreeing with my push on WhyMafia at the beginning of D2.

[BlackVoid]

Hey WhyMafia, you ignored my question twice. Please link me to the forum you play mafia at.

[BlackVoid]

I think TesXX and Srceenplay are town. StealthyNoodle, I want to track because he'll be useful later on if he's town and we're wrong today and I wouldn't mind going over the game with him knowing he's actually town.

I'd lynch between Alisae, Aristophanes, and WhyMafia. But I need to look over all four of them before deciding where I want to put down my vote.

[BlackVoid]

Looks like I'm the only person in thread who's a Gryffindor!

@nancy, you think Aristophanes is town?

[BlackVoid]

Agree on Aristophanes being less likely to be scum due to the track but he's not off the table for me entirely. I'd go for WhyMafia or Alisae most likely. Just need to read from page 35 till the end of D1 and then I'll put down a vote.

Don't really have any questions for you at the moment Alisae but WhyMafia ignoring my questions isn't sitting well with me and Aristo still hasn't posted anything remotely resembling reads.

[BlackVoid]

TesXX

is likely town for the major difference in tone between here and his scumgame. I like the way he pushed for the BP-claim strategy and the aggression with which he pushed it. I wasn't a huge fan of his "re-reading Chronicle" towards the end of the day but him looking over Pine's wall and coming to the same conclusion as me that Pine was trying to townread nancy feels fairly natural.

Srceenplay

's sheep vote on Drixx after I asked him to vote without even thinking very much I think points to somebody who doesn't know Drixx's alignment and is just taking whatever lynch he can before deadline. He was well aware that deadline was approaching and if he were scum, I think he'd be able to use that to his advantage by refusing to vote certain lynches and directing town to a compromise lynch on town. But he was always ready to place his vote on Drixx even in a way that doesn't get him much bus-cred. That's the major reason I think he's town.

StealthyNoodle

has been giving me weird gut vibes but I still find the way he reacted to Pine to be town. I also think Pine knowing how aggressive nancy can be as town would pick on a townie pushing her and take advantage of it to push their lynch. While I don't discount at all that Pine could have bussed

this

time to move away from his bussing meta, the reasons he pushed StealthyNoodle for feel like he's angling for a mislynch by presenting arguments nancy could get behind. I think if he were bussing, he probably wouldn't be targeting his arguments to appeal to one person. Then of course, the way that Stealthy reacted was also town which I went into earlier.

Aristophanes

is probably town mainly for the track. I think the odds are far more likely that mafia took a shot at me rather than no-killed. I pointed out some of Chronicle's genuine posts earlier as well. So, these four players I don't want to lynch and I think they are town. Scum is between WhyMafia and Alisae.

WhyMafia

on the surface has the worst interactions with Pine/Drixx possible. When Pine gets pushed, he immediately starts getting defensive of the slot and towards the end of the day, when most votes were going on Pine, he votes elsewhere. There are still a few posts that make me second-guess this though. One of them is 934 where I think the paranoia is more newb-town than newb-scum. I think newb-scum would be happy for the defense from StealthyNoodle and try to ally with him.

Alisae/Loopdan

has gotta be the scum I've been overlooking. The way Loopdan kept insisting that one of Pine or nancy were scum feels a bit like inside information and it's remarkable that he doesn't actually vote Pine for a lynch until it's already set in stone. That reads like classic distancing and setting up to vote there in case a wagon forms there. I don't like his low activity level, I don't like that I can't follow his reads very easily, I don't like that he was completely oblivious to Pine buddying nancy and seemingly kept insisting that it was just one of them. I think his disbelief in nancy having a secret Pine scumread was scummy as well. I also think he resigned himself to a Pine bus after all other options were gone. Alisae's early posts were mostly null but I agree with nancy that his reasons for townreading WhyMafia aren't very good. I was also expecting whoever scum was to defend WhyMafia if WhyMafia was town. I think his pushes on Srceenplay and StealthyNoodle were pretty shallow and the latter was opportunistic and came after nancy's vote there. I think his push on me to figure out why I'm townreading him was to see how safe it was to make the kill and his overblown rhetoric about working together is mostly just that - empty rhetoric. He's the only one I felt wasn't actually working with me. His threat to replace out but not actually doing it is weird as well and the sort of tactic I expected scum to take. I was spectating a game where town-Alisae got into a fight with conf-town. He quietly replaced out without even saying anything so this drama seems odd for him.

Between WhyMafia and Alisae, there's also the fact that Pine/Drixx's buddy is likely non-obvious and since WhyMafia was being thrown around as a likely lynch and a likely partner to Drixx, I think Drixx would have fought his lynch harder if that was the case. Drixx also randomly calling out Stealthy/Loopdan team (868) but only pushing Stealthy and never Loopdan fits into this theory more. I also think Loopdan felt somewhat trapped when nancy was calling him out as scum and probably figured a bus was the best option and he's likely just scum. Alisae didn't redeem the slot and if anything made me more confident. Loopdan-meta also points more to him being scum. I think this is our best shot.

VOTE: Alisae

[BlackVoid]

BV, am I really possible scum because I haven't stated my reads?

I'd like you to state your reads nevertheless. You've been in the game for a bit now and you've interacted with everyone. Reads off the top of your head would be nice. After this, and WhyMafia links me to his offsite games, I'm down to lynch Alisae.

[BlackVoid]

Alisae is town imo if for nothing else than the push for town unity!

Alisae has not been pushing for town unity. He's been claiming to do it while manufacturing arguments and getting mad for no reason.

[BlackVoid]

Whymafia is in everyone's scum pool. Lynch there.

I'm at Midwest wine fest. Hopefully no more posting from me tonight.

I don't think it's as simple as WhyMafia. If it was that obvious, Drixx's behavior would have likely been different towards the end of D1. I also think they'd work together to help build a counterwagon with the remaining townies. The fact that there was only one wagon points to a bus more likely than not.

[BlackVoid]

If stating my reads means you lynch Alisae, I'm not gonna state them.

I want you to state your reads so I can get a better read on you bro. That'll help me decide who to track in case we're wrong today.

[BlackVoid]

how the fuck am I supposed to respond to that?

Give me suggestions on who to track if you flip town and who we should lynch next.

[BlackVoid]

You haven't actually read anything.

I called Alisae town. nancy called him scum. He started pushing me to explain my townread and kept asking why I'm not taking nancy's read into consideration. Meaning he'd be expecting me to take the wrong read into consideration. When I suspect that he's trying to figure out whether I'm tracking him, he blows up and starts preaching about town unity. Except town unity was already there for the most part and he's the one trying to create conflict.

[BlackVoid]

But you are not trying to get people to work together. People were working together before you did anything. Then you stretched really, really hard to find a reason to get mad so you could get points for "genuine town ATE."

[BlackVoid]

He tried to get you and nancy, the two conftown, to work together!
Did you miss that?

He wasn't though. We were already working together before he said anything. How don't you see this? I'm actually starting to wonder if you're actually scum and not him.

[BlackVoid]

Srceenplay is town nancy. I don't see his end-of-day play coming from scum. You might say that he doesn't know how to bus but I think he had a lot of opportunity to stall out the lynch and "compromise" onto a townie. I don't he has much to gain by bussing there. He's not the one who gets most of the cred.

[BlackVoid]

I'm not sure what's scummy about him saying good luck y'all. My townread on him has nothing to do with him being good. Even a newbie scum can lurk out or say he won't vote his partner as deadline is approaching. If anything, I think he'd want Drixx alive to strategize for one more night.

[BlackVoid]

I haven't played with Aslan before so I don't know him, no. I don't know anyone in this game besides Loopdan. I'm just trying to weigh who's the most likely scum here and go from there. I'm wary of taking "I know him" meta reads at face value since those are the ones where people are constantly trying to outplay and one-up each other every new game by doing something they didn't do before.

If Alisae had produced some stunning insights or really deep analysis that impresses me, that's something that would likely make me back off. But most of his posturing doesn't feel genuine to me.

[BlackVoid]

I don't want to track Aslan. I want to flip him. I'll take track suggestions from you if I'm wrong.

[BlackVoid]

Like I said I don't HAVE a second scumread. WhyMafia is more in the range of a weak townread for me. I wouldn't mind lynching Aristophanes for his overly confident townread on Alisae but that's about it.

I don't want to lynch TesXX, Noodle, Src, or WhyMafia.

[BlackVoid]

Aristophanes parroting Alisae is annoying but on pure likelihood basis, it's more likely he's being pocketed by Alisae than scum whiteknighting him. Whichever way I look at it, comes down to Alisae being the only one who makes sense as scum here.

[BlackVoid]

BlackVoid imagine a world where your reads are wrong and in this world in order for you to realize that your reads are wrong we should lynch WhyMafia and have you track Aslan so that if Aslan is Town you realize that scum is in your townreads and you course correct and can play Day 3 properly.

Flipping Aslan will obviously help me course-correct if I'm wrong. I already have someone in mind that I want to track to get rid of niggling paranoia and who I think will work well with me in case we're wrong today and they are town.

[BlackVoid]

Also if Src is scum lynching WhyMafia has the added benefit of forcing him to find a new scumread given that you know he's been scumreading WhyMafia since like page 3 because that's a thing that totally happens.

Yeah, but like I said I think Src is town and probably wrong about WhyMafia. Forcing them to find new scumreads isn't exactly top priority at the moment.

I think you had it with the Loopdan read and later Alisae's entrance to the game. I think you are letting his ATE sway you.

[BlackVoid]

@Src, switch to Alisae please. I don't think it's WhyMafia and Alisae's big towncase on WhyMafia is more likely written by scum on town than town on scum.

[BlackVoid]

@Src, switch to Alisae please. I don't think it's WhyMafia and Alisae's big towncase on WhyMafia is more likely written by scum on town than town on scum.

I don't see it. I don't think there was any reason for a buss.
The day was about to end without a lynch so why buss?

Loopdan voted much before the deadline was approaching. I don't think his vote mattered. He voted when it seemed like Drixx was the lynch for the day. When there were other options, he was always persuing those options.

[BlackVoid]

The only possibility here is that Ari is scum because I do not believe that town!Ari would get such a strong read so wrong, there is no world in which Ari is town where Aslan is scum therefore in order to sort Aslan you sort Ari it's pretty goddamn simple.

I haven't ruled out Aristophanes. He's probably the only other player who is not off the table for me but he's not a primary suspect. But I agree with the above.

[BlackVoid]

Well, actually not the way you phrased it. I think it's possible Aristophanes just has a bad read and is being pocketed by his "friend." But I do think there is a distinct possibility he's scum and not really reading Alisae's posts because he just decided to townread him. Holding the game hostage and refusing to give his reads to conf-town because he doesn't want Alisae lynched was pretty bad.

[BlackVoid]

@Src, limiting your reads to only people that didn't vote Pine is bad play. You should be considering the fact that there was no counterwagon to Pine which makes it more likely that scum bussed.

[BlackVoid]

I have a super hard time seeing a world in which Alisae flips town. Vote him with me and if I'm wrong here, I'll consider everyone's opinion who voted with me on where to track, who to lynch tomorrow.

[BlackVoid]

Or that scum was incapable of DEFENDING. I've been over this already.

I don't get what you mean by incapable here. It doesn't take any level of skill for Src to simply not show up and vote Drixx when he did.

[BlackVoid]

I think Loopdan antagonized you enough to the point where him jumping off of Pine to vote with you would look weird as heck and would likely make you get back on the wagon. I was also pushing pretty hard. Since the point I replaced in, it was unlikely any other wagon would go through.

Loopdan's best bet at that point is to bus so he at least has some self-righteous "I was right and nancy was wrong" implication to keep you at bay long enough to nightkill you.