Micro 1091 - Prism v. 1L Year [Game Over]

Micro Games (9 players or fewer). Archived during the 2023 queue overhaul.
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Post Post #30 (isolation #0) » Sun Aug 27, 2023 6:34 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

what's up gamers!!

VOTE: Bell
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Post Post #42 (isolation #1) » Sun Aug 27, 2023 6:40 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 36, Bell wrote:
In post 32, Ydrasse wrote: VOTE: bell
Also scum.
There’s 1 more scum or was there two scum. I’ll go ahead and guess Elle for 3 because they’re filling the air.
Anyway I’m all out of scums.
you forgot the scum millers as well
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Post Post #79 (isolation #2) » Sun Aug 27, 2023 6:53 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 52, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote: she decided to claim miller impulsively for fun
do you think that's something scum!Meuh is likely to do?
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Post Post #145 (isolation #3) » Sun Aug 27, 2023 9:46 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 97, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote: I don't think there's a point in guessing what scum!meuh will or won't do or whether Prism would run a micro with two millers in it. it's just trying to outguess an opponent or the mod.


hmm ok, I was more wondering whether was based on a specific idea or expectation of how Meuh plays scum, I agree with the rest of your post that there's no downside to pressing her on flavor. though I generally doubt that mafia is gonna immediately claim a miller role without considering the flavor beforehand
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Post Post #146 (isolation #4) » Sun Aug 27, 2023 10:03 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 107, elle (1L) wrote: in theory scum!pooky could have been informed there was a miller and cleverly asked prism for a miller fake claim during pregame to orchestrate as well
this post feels off to me, it's giving me vibes of speculating about something that you know didn't happen
VOTE: elle
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Post Post #253 (isolation #5) » Sun Aug 27, 2023 6:59 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 168, elle (1L) wrote: like do you think i’ve been scummy? if everyone thinks i have we can sit here and work through on and off for however long is necessary but from my perspective it’s like, bell voting me because i process things slowly which is very well documented and unrelated to game and guiltylion voting me for ??? reasons regarding millers like does me saying ‘in theory’ really imply i’m speculating about something I have knowledge of? like am i a scums with one of the miller claims then? and pooky voting because others voted as far as i can tell
yes let's hash it out - my hangup is mainly that I don't understand what the point of the post was, like I see you said you like to explore theories, do you maybe have similar examples from completed towngames? and also I think the thing that felt most off is the way you said this would be "clever" of Pooky, it feels just a lil shady yet at the same time I have a sense that you don't actually
believe
that he's fakeclaiming

and what's your reasoning for why that would make you scum with one of the claims? my thinking was if both Pooky and Meuh are telling the truth then scum might be looking for ways to discredit them or sow doubt around the claims and that's the vibe your post gave me
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Post Post #254 (isolation #6) » Sun Aug 27, 2023 7:14 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 176, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote: weird self defense claiming we're taking advantage of the fact you're on mobile instead of computer which is really ?? to me.

I did not consider the fact that you were on mobile at all and I doubt GuiltyLion did either
I also wasn't thinking about the phone thing at all and when I went to reread just now I don't think elle was clear that being on the phone would make her unable to play well. there's but I took that as a joke, it didn't occur to me that she was saying she may not be able to fully respond to questions or pressure

@elle if there's stuff that needs to wait until Wednesday I do not mind, I'm in no rush here
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Post Post #255 (isolation #7) » Sun Aug 27, 2023 7:16 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 177, Dunnstral wrote: Napkin thoughts: Millers town, catboi town, Bell town
why is catboi town?
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Post Post #256 (isolation #8) » Sun Aug 27, 2023 7:26 pm

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In post 198, Ydrasse wrote: the point is that i think she could like... dunno. i feel like mafia would be a little less all over the place about it and less overtly... intense? i don't know if that's the right word but maybe dealing with it head-on. it doesn't feel like the correct response as mafia to me.
I feel you that this reaction is a bit disproportionate and a lot of mafia would probably be playing it more cool here, but I also don't really know her that well and don't know what her scumrange is or what she's capable of. some people do like to smash the AtE button cause it's easier for them to sound genuine, especially if the suspicion isn't exactly 'fair' despite being correct

idk did you have any thoughts on the aforementioned phone point?
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Post Post #271 (isolation #9) » Mon Aug 28, 2023 12:32 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

@Cakez - do you have a read on elle?

@Dunn - I get that you like the post but you really believe that's sufficient for a townread? and reads as though you're POEing via your townreads and that feels kinda rote and simplistic. I don't think mafia is incapable of producing catboi's ISO so far
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Post Post #319 (isolation #10) » Mon Aug 28, 2023 7:19 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

sorry to hear about COVID Bell :/ rest and take care of yourself

I am getting townvibes from Ydrasse - I've played a handful of games with her as both alignments and I've noticed a pattern where she acts noticeably more vibey and carefree as scum, like she plays in a manner to convince everyone that she's decidedly
not
experiencing any of the pressure or anxiety that comes with Being Mafia. whereas here she's being pretty candid about feeling a possible thread vibe against her, Mesh's hedgey post making her "antsy", etc. It comes across being self-conscious about her standing in the town in a way that I think scum!Ydra would generally tend to hide.

I was kinda wary of her opening for this exact reason, like feels like something she'd post as scum, but the more anxious energy of her page 11/12 posts feels genuine to me.
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Post Post #320 (isolation #11) » Mon Aug 28, 2023 7:22 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 297, Ydrasse wrote:
In post 292, SirCakez wrote:
In post 264, Ydrasse wrote: the pooky thing is played out and obligatory but i find it interesting (scummy flavored) that he doesn’t seem to care about exploring the content that could maybe help him parse a slot he often plays with and interacts with etc
I'm always gonna have my little clash with Pooky but I think it's entirely and obviously irrelevant to my alignment this game and I think this is an incredibly weak argument to use to SR me
also i don't really think this is like. entirely true because it's a Behavior factored into meta and the things that you do in game so i think that how you treat it could give insight to your alignment. i don't think it's the Strongest reason to call someone mafia but i think it's possible you felt like you had to go through the basic motions of giving him/it attention without actually caring about the more important engagement with it.
also she's exactly right here, like Cakez do you seriously believe your interactions with Pooky are "obviously irrelevant" to your alignment? you don't think it matters at all that in one world you know his alignment and in one world you don't, like that won't manifest in how you treat him??
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Post Post #321 (isolation #12) » Mon Aug 28, 2023 7:27 pm

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In post 294, SirCakez wrote: I think the posts read like a scum overreaction but I can see where a town player reacts like this especially in this type of game where I'm sure people were excited to play in this one, it sucks getting sunk with a wagon within 24 hours of day one open
so you think elle is town (or at least null town), but you see Ydrasse coming to the same read as TMI - is that specific to the way she expressed the read or is the read itself inherently suspicious to you?

and which read came first (elle townread vs ydra scumread) and to what degree do they impact each other, if at all. like are you adding any weight to your elle townread because you think Ydra TMI'd the slot, or are these things largely unrelated in your mind
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Post Post #322 (isolation #13) » Mon Aug 28, 2023 7:31 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 310, Dunnstral wrote: I believe that Ydrasse is usually more charismatic as mafia early. Maybe. I feel like I make this argument a lot in games but I don't remember how that has went for me.
hah actually this is sorta what I just said but in a more concise tl;dr form

hmmm I wanna say that is +points for Dunn being town but I guess he could still make this argument as scum, especially if he's made it before
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Post Post #323 (isolation #14) » Mon Aug 28, 2023 7:37 pm

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In post 309, Dunnstral wrote: If Catboi is mafia they opened up by calling a lot of people town, including two people who claimed the same role. I think mafia would be more hesitant to do so and would want paranoia to remain there.
on this though, I guess like, maybe? scum are certainly incentivized away from making early game townreads but I feel once you hit a certain level of experience/skill in your scum game you realize early TRs are a lot more reversible than people tend to think. in the general case I agree with you but I wouldn't put that much stock in it for somebody who's been on the site for a decade, especially when he himself immediately said he's capable of posting that as scum
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Post Post #324 (isolation #15) » Mon Aug 28, 2023 7:46 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 316, Dunnstral wrote: Ydrasse points against SirCakez:
o Their vote put pressure on Ydrasse at a time when people were considering voting for Ydrasse
o Their interaction with Pooky is suspicious because they avoided talking about the miller claim to "get into the game", and they would do so as town
o They are being obtuse in their interaction with Ydrasse and missing the point on purpose, including misrepping what Ydrasse is saying


SirCakez points against Ydrasse:
o Their interactions with elle (1L) on page 8 are informed
o Their responses to SirCakez's questions are bad and Ydrasse would have better arguments as town
what are your thoughts about a Cakez vote?
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Post Post #360 (isolation #16) » Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:48 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 331, catboi wrote: It's not impossible if she felt threatened by cakez scumreading her and felt the need to push back on an accuser before she became a wagon - part of why I squinted at her accusing the game of shifting momentum toward her was that it felt like it could be an unconscious guilt thing - when you're scum you tend to perceive your actions as ore suspicious than they are and get worried that people are going to start pushing you and it felt like an exaggeration of reality.

Or she could just be a paranoid townie. I'm hardly committed to my current vote.
do you have any thoughts on what I said re: my impression of her scumgame being specifically crafted to appear carefree?

It's kinda odd you didn't comment on that at all, like what you are proposing as a scum explanation here is exactly the opposite of how Ydrasse plays as mafia in my experience
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Post Post #361 (isolation #17) » Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:54 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 337, SirCakez wrote: what is this stuff? just vote me if you feel something it's always weird to me when people like look for approval for their votes before placing them.
I was asking Dunn specifically because I am getting a weird vibe around him where he seems to be suspecting you but isn't voting you (or voting at all, for that matter).

I don't need his approval to vote you lol you misunderstand my post completely if you think that's what I was asking for
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Post Post #362 (isolation #18) » Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:55 pm

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I have a thought on but I'm gonna wait for Ydrasse to potentially respond / address the post first
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Post Post #363 (isolation #19) » Tue Aug 29, 2023 2:01 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 356, Meuh wrote:
In post 355, Meuh wrote: You know who DOES feel like they're just going through the motions? GuiltyLion.
I do think this is a general quirk of the way he plays, but he feels especially stiff here I guess?
Like compared to New Year Dance Party (viewtopic.php?sid=&f=56&t=90239&user_select%5B%5D=26515), his posting here feels cleaner in a way I don't feel good about; could partially be justified by the contrast in game tone and him not being 100% checked into that game, but I don't find that fully satisfactory. Also feels generally off (and TMI on Dunn being town maybe?), like I read this post and he presents this questioning of Dunn's alignment but I don't actually feel like this is something he reflected on, I don't buy the thought process.
VOTE: GuiltyLion
mm I was conftown that game and burning out and didn't try very hard

I need to go check to confirm but I vaguely recall you mistakenly scumreading me for similar reasons in Eurybia's curse
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Post Post #366 (isolation #20) » Tue Aug 29, 2023 2:26 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

yah Meuh I think you should reread my ISO and yours in Eurybia's again, I was just perusing through it and it feels like you were getting similar vibes there, and I'm curious if you agree or if there's still a difference in your mind
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Post Post #368 (isolation #21) » Tue Aug 29, 2023 2:36 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

catboi why are you feeling kinda passive this game?

there's been a few moments where you've said you're waiting for more or uncertain of reads and I don't remember you being this hands off last time we played together
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Post Post #370 (isolation #22) » Tue Aug 29, 2023 2:51 pm

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what prompted the decision to experiment in this game?
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Post Post #416 (isolation #23) » Wed Aug 30, 2023 7:03 am

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hi Luke!
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Post Post #423 (isolation #24) » Wed Aug 30, 2023 7:41 am

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In post 418, SirCakez wrote: i understand this and the thread vibes you were talking about
im still hung up on how you think I could have felt the same vibes as you and taken advantage based on those.
ok so Cakez this is getting at the same question/thought I have about your

do you think the vibes/atmosphere of the game that Ydrasse is talking about actually did exist in her point of view? or do you think she's fabricating the 'vibes' as a reason to push you?

I think as either alignment Ydrasse may have genuinely felt people were going to suspect her, and if she's town wouldn't it make sense to see the timing of your vote as suspicious? I don't think it's an inherently
scummy
argument, even if I could imagine her also making it as scum
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Post Post #430 (isolation #25) » Wed Aug 30, 2023 8:13 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

@Luke - I don't really think any of you, Dunn, or catboi have been townie, so I am indeed trying to get a feel for Dunn's alignment and challenging Ydra on why she TRed your slot

it's kinda disingenuous to frame that as "weaken early town reads" as opposed to, y'know, scumhunting
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Post Post #522 (isolation #26) » Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:27 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

UNVOTE:

I'm willing to trust the claim
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Post Post #523 (isolation #27) » Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:35 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 436, Lukewarm wrote: Your line of questioning with Dunn did not appear to lead to you voicing any thoughts on Dunn's alignment wrt his Catboi read, nor did you seem to argue that Catboi was scum. It was just "but scum catboi COULD do that too, so you should not town read him." And that being the where that conversation led, left me with that impression.

I also, just, in general do not trust that sort of argument as genuine, because it seems to set a precedent that in order to think someone is more likely to be town, you must believe that their actions could not be replicated. And that is a very silly bar to set for town reads.
on this - I don't think I really had a lot of substantial thoughts on Dunn's alignment, at least not worth sharing. I felt most of his reads seemed artificial and formulaic, outside of when he had the same take as I did on Ydra. That's what is kinda hanging me up as I don't see the scum motivation for that read if Ydra is town, and the fact that he had the same reasoning regarding her scum meta felt mindmeld-y. but the catboi read was concerningly easy and I was trying to suss out to what degree he actually believes in it. I also generally don't like that he seemed reluctant to put down a vote on Cakez

I've been unsure of how to feel re:catboi as well but assuming you're telling the truth here I am thinking he's probably mafia
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Post Post #524 (isolation #28) » Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:36 pm

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In post 452, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote: i thought about your reasoning for GL and i think its kind of weak sauce and its like you decided to vote him then figure out an excuse rather than the other way around.
tbh you can never put it past Luke to find some reason to scumread me
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Post Post #525 (isolation #29) » Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:38 pm

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although Pooky this feels like a bit of a strong defense when it's not clear to me what your read on me is

your pocket request has been received and will be evaluated in 1-3 Business Days
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Post Post #526 (isolation #30) » Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:39 pm

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In post 453, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote: like gls thoughts on catboi exactly mirror my own. so they make sense to me. i just dont bother to question dflors townread cuz i think its tactically bad.
are you saying here that my questioning dunn was tactically bad? what does that mean
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Post Post #527 (isolation #31) » Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:47 pm

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I completely agree with Luke's . catboi's is an attempt to frame my early elle pressure as inherently "bad faith" if elle is town. I also don't believe catboi had any issues with the pressure on elle at the time

VOTE: catboi
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Post Post #530 (isolation #32) » Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:57 pm

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In post 511, catboi wrote: Night actions/claims will potentially help clear you up
this also feels like kind of a weird point in the context of why he's not taking a stance on either of us

what happens if we get to D2/D3 and we're both alive and Luke claims roleblocked or that he didn't get a useful result? if we're TvT and mafia have counterplay to a tracker then the dynamic could be intentionally prolonged as long as they want

idk this kind of like "I don't know, we'll see what happens" attitude rubs me the wrong way when catboi's also not leading or not advocating for much. I'd be more inclined to buy the indecisiveness if it felt like catboi was actively trying to sort me
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Post Post #532 (isolation #33) » Thu Aug 31, 2023 4:10 pm

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I think Luke probably resolves himself most of the time (assuming he's town) but if you see us as a TvS situation then I don't understand why that doesn't lead to you suspecting and voting me. like FYPOV there should be no real downside to flipping me but instead it feels like you're trying to keep your options open or simply float an idea of TvS / scum!GL to wait and see what the reception is
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Post Post #542 (isolation #34) » Thu Aug 31, 2023 5:22 pm

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In post 533, catboi wrote: As for me "not actively trying to sort you" - you weren't here, dude. What are you expecting me to do when you're not posting in the game? Why do you think I didn't just vote you? I mean, probably because I'm still trying to sort you?
are you primarily a real time interactions kind of person, I feel like I've been around and posting

I'm also not sure what to make of your , it's fair to state that you're not confident in your read but also the best way to catch scum is when they bullshit their votes and scumreads and so if I squint hard enough I could see this post as a dodge out of fabricating a scumread on a townie. why should I believe that your scumread there is genuine
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Post Post #593 (isolation #35) » Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:49 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 592, SirCakez wrote: kinda wack that Ydra went AWOL as soon as wagon attention moved elsewhere
... was it not her birthday yesterday?

this is opportunistic shade
and it also feels like your vote on me is just a chainsaw for catboi
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Post Post #594 (isolation #36) » Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:53 am

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In post 179, Dunnstral wrote: elle (1L) + Ydrasse, or elle (1L) + SirCakez for the scumteam, as post 146 quoted above does not seem like both mafia, and elle (1L) does seem the most suspect to me right now based on how I've seen mafia in this position act before.
In post 310, Dunnstral wrote: I believe that Ydrasse is usually more charismatic as mafia early. Maybe. I feel like I make this argument a lot in games but I don't remember how that has went for me.


@Dunn re:- the combination of these two posts, not the one I quoted, is what made me think you should be voting Cakez if you were acting on your reads

I didn't post "hm, Dunn seems like he should be scumreading/voting Cakez, but he's not, I'm going to ask him about whether he'd vote Cakez to test him" ahead of time because that would obviously shape any reaction or post that I got from you
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Post Post #595 (isolation #37) » Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:55 am

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In post 585, catboi wrote: I find it frustrating to be on the receiving end of this repeatedly.
this doesn't feel true given your prior two posts

like if you're actually frustrated is the first response really just "Lol"
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Post Post #597 (isolation #38) » Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:59 am

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that is surprising yes
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Post Post #689 (isolation #39) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 1:22 pm

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In post 599, catboi wrote: I think GL accusing Cakez of chainsawing me is moving into "hard to fathom as being the real belief of a town player" territory. It's enough in the territory that I would be okay with voting him today, because his arguments have gotten continually worse, and look more like he's trying to "score points" with every attack rather than attempting to discern a perspective or actually investigate alignments. (I think even if he's town the way he's playing right is outright anti-town, not because he's reading me wrong but because of him tunneling in a single-minded fashion where everything someone does only adds further fuel to the fire. I think if allowed to live he will harm the town regardless of his alignment. That's simply how I've come to view this type of play.


the timing and execution of that Cakez vote is incredibly suspicious, is it not? a bunch of people starting to openly suspect you, and then Cakez decides to sheep a Dunn case that didn't bother to examine or interrogate my point of view ()? and then he says he actually also scumreads you as well - that is Weird Behavior! so weird in fact that I don't have a good town!explanation for it coming to mind!

I also take issue with you framing my style of play as not "actually investigating alignments", that's an uncharitable description. I tend to be a bit militant and aggressive in how I make pushes but that's because mafia don't actually
feel any pressure
if you don't call them out or push things forcefully.

if you're town here and you genuinely think I'm "harming the town" then do your job and show me where I'm wrong and who's actually scum instead. hell, you can even
actually vote me
, I still don't understand why you haven't. anyone can just float along and form shallow vague POE pools in a manner virtually indistinguishable from conservative scumplay, it's actually wild you're now attempting to claim some kind of high ground of being better at mafia for doing so. like was your goal with this post to piss me off or what?
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Post Post #693 (isolation #40) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 1:29 pm

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actually @catboi I'm willing to engage with you on Ydrasse because I think that's probably the best olive branch here

I see why you're 'not convinced' by what I said for her being town, I guess what I don't buy in your reason for scumreading her is that scum!Ydrasse needs to OMGUS Cakez reactively at all? all you've said is it 'could easily be scum motivated' but I really don't think Ydrasse is the type of player to actually wig out like that as mafia. I've seen her as scum a handful of times and not once can I remember her getting reactive to early pressure or someone sussing her until it was at a point where the game was literally on the line because she was last mafia standing.

so for you to see her react to early pressure and be like 'meh, seems scummy' just feels really lazy and surface level, what am I missing there? like is your position that scum!Ydrasse felt threatened by Cakez?
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Post Post #695 (isolation #41) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 1:30 pm

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hi Bell, I do not know why Ydra is voting you

I don't think I'm doing anything here I would 'only do as town', I don't think I have a polarized game like that, or at least I try not to. like if I knew the answer to your question then it wouldn't be valid cause I'd do those things as scum
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Post Post #697 (isolation #42) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 1:33 pm

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@Bell - honestly I just mainly shelved you as town for the early push on elle and because you feel a little 'spewed town' in a sense given no one's really pushed you at all, but if something is wonky in this game I don't think you're at a level you didn't meet in that Shakespeare game

I think my only solid townreads at the moment are Meuh, Pookie, and Ydrasse
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Post Post #700 (isolation #43) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 1:35 pm

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In post 696, Bell wrote: Because obviously you pivot around different people and choose where your focus is as one alignment over the other.
People don't play alignments the same as either alignment.
They never have.
I don't disagree with this but I don't really know what I would be doing as scum here because I would be informed and I would also have a buddy to play around

you asked me what I've done that I would only do as town, I don't know what the answer to that is. like I guess if I were scum and catboi is town I probably would be less willing to fake a scumread on him and fight it out if it felt like unnecessary attention? but the fact that I'm generally fearless in my towngame means I also have to be fearless in my scumgame, and I think scum!me would think that town!me would not be impressed with him here
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Post Post #701 (isolation #44) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 1:36 pm

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uhhh, okay
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Post Post #702 (isolation #45) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 1:38 pm

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In post 696, Bell wrote: Choosing to be offended by Catboi,
choosing to provide an "olive branch"
I guess my other thought is that I don't really agree that these are 'choices' I've made
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Post Post #704 (isolation #46) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 1:40 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 672, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:
In post 595, GuiltyLion wrote:
In post 585, catboi wrote: I find it frustrating to be on the receiving end of this repeatedly.
this doesn't feel true given your prior two posts

like if you're actually frustrated is the first response really just "Lol"
objection: speculation about the defendant's state of mind.
do you think catboi seems frustrated?

he's stated that he is, but that's not the feeling I actually get from his posts. they feel crafted and manipulative to me
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Post Post #705 (isolation #47) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 1:41 pm

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In post 703, Bell wrote: They're definitely choices by any measure of the word.
If someone says I'm being "harmful to town" that's gonna offend me no matter what

feelings aren't a choice, they're a reaction
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Post Post #706 (isolation #48) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 1:44 pm

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like Bell do you actually sit down and consciously choose to post everything you post and say everything you say

that's commendable restraint if so but I tend to just vomit stuff impulsively in the thread
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Post Post #708 (isolation #49) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 1:46 pm

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no, it's because I think that's a self-absorbed and dismissive thing to say
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Post Post #710 (isolation #50) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 1:48 pm

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ok, I'm not those players? I've lost the plot on the point of this conversation unless you're claiming that something specifically in how I've reacted is scum indicative
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Post Post #712 (isolation #51) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 1:52 pm

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I didn't decide to get upset

either catboi is scum and he's trying to just discredit me and piss me off, in which case cool, mission accomplished I guess

or he's town and he
actually thinks
my play is anti-town, which is offensive on a different level because when I compare what I've been trying to do and what he's done I don't think someone can earnestly say they believe their play is better at either a) appearing town or b) catching scum. so if he's town he's basically just saying I'm bad at the game because I dared to suspect him for not taking any definite stances on anything and that's tilting that he can unironically believe that given the extent of whatever he's offered so far
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Post Post #713 (isolation #52) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 1:54 pm

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the thing is if he's town then it
is
true that I'm playing badly in his mind, so it's insulting - and if he's scum he's intentionally wielding that to his advantage

I still don't follow your point here, are you saying I should just not care about trying to be good at the game and someone people enjoy playing with
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Post Post #714 (isolation #53) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 1:56 pm

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is your point that I should just be more zen about being suggested as a policy vote
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Post Post #718 (isolation #54) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 2:01 pm

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if it gets to a point where it's an unplayable conflict I'd be willing to back down or apologize and own my role in making things that way

I did not think this was anywhere close to that in this game, maybe that's my fault

I'm gonna take a break for a bit I don't think I am in a good mindset anymore, it feels like Bell is just shaming me I don't really understand what he's doing or trying to get at

might be back later tonight if/when I feel better regulated
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Post Post #723 (isolation #55) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 2:06 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

you're saying I chose to get upset and asking me what the point of it was

like I guess yes, if I took a deep breath and didn't let myself get riled up by another player claiming I shouldn't live because I'm harming the town, maybe I could have avoided getting frustrated.

I didn't do that, so here we are. what do you actually expect me to say in response to ?

I don't think I play the way that you do, I don't think of what scum!me would be doing at all. I think about what scum in other players positions would probably be doing, but my position is literally the only one that's resolved for me so I don't need to spend any time thinking about it other than trying to find the right means to correct other people when they're not seeing me accurately. but if someone I'm pushing is gonna turn around and advocate to policy me, my first thought isn't "what's my best choice in how to respond to this", I am not thinking at a higher order level like that
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Post Post #820 (isolation #56) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 6:52 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

I feel shitty about catboi replacing out and I was out of line taking it personally

I also don't really think catboi would have reacted like that as mafia
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Post Post #821 (isolation #57) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 6:54 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

I don't think I want to push anywhere tonight but I'm around for a bit
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Post Post #822 (isolation #58) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 6:59 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

also @Bell you don't need to apologize you didn't do anything wrong, you're correct to have the "game is the game" mindset
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Post Post #875 (isolation #59) » Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:01 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

I'm gonna try to muster up energy for this game and reread and do more tonight

of the current two wagons I'd definitely prefer Cakez over Ydrasse but there's a few things I want to check re:Cakez. I remember in Eurybia's I eventually had him correctly as scum and I want to reread his ISO from that game and compare it to how it feels here, as well as look at the things I picked up on there

I also felt his treatment of me vs catboi was agenda'd but I was largely operating in a context of scum!catboi, if catboi slot is town I need to reassess whether he's been playing it like scum would a TvT but at the time I wasn't getting that vibe so I just want to reassess there

also makes sense to me

I kinda feel like Meuh has fallen off a lot this game and that's starting to worry me
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Post Post #890 (isolation #60) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 8:48 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

alright here's where I am at

I took a look over again at Cakez ISO in the Eurybia game, the last time I remember playing with him as scum. I do feel he comes across a bit differently here than he did in that game. the main differences I see are:

1) In Eurybia's Curse, scum!Cakez was quick to give out a bunch of early game townreads and stick to them (see: here, an early townread on the worst that was reinforced here, here an early TR on skitter that he got into trouble with but kept doubling down like so, and also notably here he called Meuh vs GL a TvT and stuck to both those reads as well). the worst was a scumbuddy in that game wheres the other players were townies, so one read was to shield a buddy and the others were pocket attempts or efforts to blend in, but across all of them they were fixed somewhat early and he stuck to them somewhat implausibly, giving his play a very agenda'd feel to it. Whereas here I am seeing fewer expressed townreads to begin with - but even the ones he has given he's either waffled on (progressing from 'null town' on elle to a vote/scumread ) or been hedgey about (catboi , Bell "don't know but wouldn't vote today" )

2) His pushes in Eurbyia's curse were often grounded in something NAI that he then embellishes to make sound bad. Examples here and here. See his method of 'casing' gamma in this post. I think there's maybe some surface level similarity with his initial Ydra push in this game, but then I look at his later votes and justifications, like the commentary on Luke in or even his sheeping Dunn onto me in and it feels more Rational and Considered, as well as proactive in explaining why he's actually voting where he's voting. I reflexively didn't like because I thought it was a questionably timed sheep of a poor case on me but when I try to remove my own feelings from the situation the means in which he's making his votes doesn't have the same exaggeration to it as it did in his scumgame.

So there's enough here to make me a bit uncertain, from a brief meta comparison. It's possible he's stepped up his game but Pooky also suggesting this doesn't feel like his scumgame is giving me pause.

All that said, I have a nagging concern with this most recent post:
In post 889, SirCakez wrote: I think I kind of believe Ydra's PR softing? Enough to where I don't want to vote her today. So that's just leaving me with GL.
From her interactions from catboi, I got the sense that Ydra was softing some sort of vengeful ability. If that's what Cakez thinks as well, and he's scum and she's town and telling the truth, this seems like it could be a convenient excuse to avoid voting her and thus putting himself at risk.

More thoughts coming in a second post in a sec
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Post Post #891 (isolation #61) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:04 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

Now, for some general mech/gamestate thoughts:

At this point I am suspicious about all the claims flying around. We have 2 miller claims, a 2-shot tracker claim, and another softed PR implying some sort of venge.

I am not really a mech based player or particularly good at assessing balance but this feels wonky if all of these claims to be true. Namely the biggest thing to me is that if we assume a town will not eliminate any of these claimed roles on D1, that leaves a pool of 5 possible D1 eliminations of which 2 are mafia. I also don't think it's particularly likely that of two of the three slots we've seriously wagoned (catboi being the third) both have PRs. So I think either one of Luke/Ydrasse is lying or one of the millers is just scum

(as an aside the most hilarious timeline would be if a Pooky/Meuh scumteam decided to yolo gambit both claiming miller at the start... I doubt that's what happened but now I want to try that sometime if I roll scum in a 9p lmao)

VOTE: Ydrasse

I want to hear a full claim. and frankly if she is venge then I don't think it's that harmful if we miseliminate, it basically unlocks a vig shot
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Post Post #892 (isolation #62) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:06 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

if we had more time I'd want Meuh to face more scrutiny because it feels like she's been on coast for the past few days but I don't know if there's enough time to flashwagon

@Meuh I'd like your thoughts on what I just said re:Cakez since you were in that game as well
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Post Post #894 (isolation #63) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:11 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

hmmm why is catboi a VT, flavorwise
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Post Post #895 (isolation #64) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:13 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

Ydrasse do you have any thoughts on what I said about Cakez
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Post Post #897 (isolation #65) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:20 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

do you think scum!catboi would replace out like that?

I feel you on this game feeling meh, you claiming VT instead of a PR means my theory doesn't really work anymore
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Post Post #898 (isolation #66) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:22 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

also if you think the team is Cakez/GL why did you vote me when Cakez was the larger wagon
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Post Post #1113 (isolation #67) » Sat Sep 09, 2023 7:50 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

hi ho, I am Prism's roommate and I am a VT

I am just checking in quickly for now but I should have more time to play this afternoon, this week has been super busy

I agree with Pooky's logic that there must be a scum in {Cakez, Luke, Dunn} based on the claims

I need to re-ISO Dunn and remember how he landed on Ydra yesterday
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Post Post #1114 (isolation #68) » Sat Sep 09, 2023 7:53 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

re:RH9, I think it's a slip. I'd be maybe inclined to buy a "lying to save face" explanation if he hadn't also tried to shade the people who picked up on the slip in

RH9 who do you think is scum?
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Post Post #1117 (isolation #69) » Sat Sep 09, 2023 10:38 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1115, Dunnstral wrote: Cakez hasn't even claimed his role yet, how can you think there must be mafia within the 3 of us?
uhh

I'm a VT, Bell and Ydra are VTs

if you three are town and telling the truth that leaves only RH9+the miller claims as possible scum

and that would mean either it's exactly Pooky+Meuh doing a double miller claim gambit or at least one of the miller claims is true, which would further mean Miller+3PRs in a 9 player game, leaving 2 scum and 3 VTs. that just doesn't feel likely on the whole
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Post Post #1118 (isolation #70) » Sat Sep 09, 2023 10:41 am

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In post 1116, Dunnstral wrote: And Luke is confirmed™ to be a tracker at least but there is no consideration there.
either you or Luke could be scum - Luke being confirmed to be a tracker isn't indicative of alignment other than being somewhat +town for Luke for not lying about his night action.

also mafia shooting at an unknown in Bell vs any of the claimed roles is further wonk indicating that something is off here
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Post Post #1121 (isolation #71) » Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:00 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1119, Dunnstral wrote: Again, SirCakez hasn't claimed yet so you are jumping to conclusions that don't make sense with what we currently know.
SirCakez is the one who initially said things don't make sense with his role and that he wants to hunt in the PRs...
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Post Post #1123 (isolation #72) » Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:04 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

like either your perspective is skewed because you're town or you're just maf here, but from where I'm sitting there's 100% scum in millers+PRs, and it's odd that your first instinct is to discredit that

p-edit: I agree with both lol
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Post Post #1124 (isolation #73) » Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:05 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1123, GuiltyLion wrote: like either your perspective is skewed because you're town
PR
**
EBWOP
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Post Post #1163 (isolation #74) » Sat Sep 09, 2023 8:40 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1153, Dunnstral wrote: I don't see anything wrong with that setup. Keep in mind that the PRs are weaker than normal, and that miller is likely not a big factor in balance. Do you think there is an issue with town having three prs in a micro?
the issue is that on D1, town is not going to eliminate any claimed PR and likely not a miller claim either

so for all 5 players claiming roles to be town, it means Prism is handing the scumteam a D1 where only 2 townies are miselimmable

that seems quite clearly unbalanced, my understanding is that's why most 9p setups have generally around 2 PRs unless it's explicitly a role madness type of deal
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Post Post #1164 (isolation #75) » Sat Sep 09, 2023 8:48 pm

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I agree Luke's claim has to be town at this point because there's not enough town power otherwise

I'm thinking either

1) Cakez just trueclaimed his role as a scum RB
or
2) Dunn is some kind of scum investigative that targeted Luke

what's extra wonk is that neither Cakez nor Dunn see any issue with eachother's claims

I think at least to Dunn's credit he is just coming off kind of obtuse whereas Cakez pivoted from "scum in the PRs" to just immediately accepting Dunn's claim - feels like he may be strategically positioning and not wanting to make an enemy out of Dunn
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Post Post #1165 (isolation #76) » Sat Sep 09, 2023 8:52 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

Dunn why did you claim specifically the 1-shot aspect of your role

did you consider withholding the number of uses
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Post Post #1215 (isolation #77) » Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:22 am

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In post 1184, Meuh wrote: Town does not have the thought of "millers are mislimmable on day 1 here"
GL is scum playing against 2 town millers he didn't feel like he could mislim
I think this perspective kinda unpairs Cakez/GL since wasn't Cakez one of the people who was sticking to not limming a miller day 1? His perspective (as town) would affect GL's view of a miller mislim (as scum)
I don't understand this post

Dunn asked what is wrong with a micro with 3 PRs + 2 millers, so I explained why there can't be 3 PRs + 2 millers

"scum perspective" is required to explain why a theoretical set up is unbalanced for scum
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Post Post #1216 (isolation #78) » Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:25 am

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In post 1191, Lukewarm wrote:
In post 1164, GuiltyLion wrote: either

1) Cakez just trueclaimed his role as a scum RB
Do you thing scum rb cakez would choose to not roleblock me night 1 after I claimed tracker day 1?
I think if it's Cakez + one of the miller claims then yes, as a claimed miller could safely make a kill
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Post Post #1217 (isolation #79) » Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:29 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1207, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote: I kind of think we just yeet GuiltyLion here I believe in all my PRs
:neutral:

there literally has to be scum in the PRs

especially if you are town

@Luke am I crazy? why does it feel like I'm the only person saying both Cakez and Dunn cannot be town

I guess Meuh also said the same thing but called me scum for saying it
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Post Post #1218 (isolation #80) » Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:36 am

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VOTE: SirCakez

I think his evolution from "this set up doesn't make sense there are too many PR claims" to believing all the PRs once claimed is a tactical pivot, I am having a hard time coming up with a town explanation for his 180 on his suspicion on Luke/Dunn
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Post Post #1219 (isolation #81) » Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:38 am

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I would also yeet RH9 if we wanna do that instead
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Post Post #1227 (isolation #82) » Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:02 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

@Dunn

this is what SirCakez said:
In post 1024, SirCakez wrote: I'm even more suspicious as Luke has claimed he found yet another PR, which, two millers, another visiting PR, Luke and my role seems absurd. We should probably mass claim,
someone in the PR claims is lying.
then you claim doctor and he evolves to this:
In post 1197, SirCakez wrote: I don't think Dunn is scum because then town had 0 protective power. Luke's role + Dunns + me is a perfect level of town power.
seems like he doesn't want to piss you off by doubting your claim
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Post Post #1228 (isolation #83) » Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:04 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

also like... pocketing is a thing lol
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Post Post #1229 (isolation #84) » Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:07 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

also you had already indicated you'd be willing to believe his claim in and in between when he said "someone in the PRs is lying" to when he said he believes the 3 PRs
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Post Post #1246 (isolation #85) » Mon Sep 11, 2023 10:42 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1239, SirCakez wrote: By PR claims I mean all non-VTs, if that clarifies
oof actually this makes a huge difference lol I need to reread your posts and think again with that in mind, I was interpreting your use of "PR" literally
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Post Post #1299 (isolation #86) » Tue Sep 12, 2023 11:02 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

I'm here, I will speak do not worry
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Post Post #1304 (isolation #87) » Tue Sep 12, 2023 11:35 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

Dunn in your are you saying scum fakeclaiming a town visiting role after being tracked is a "gambit"?
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Post Post #1305 (isolation #88) » Tue Sep 12, 2023 11:41 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

idk about RH9

that replace out is pretty bad, and of all his questionable comments I think the "2 VTs" one is actually still the most suspect, but I am also wanting to hold onto the idea that catboi wouldn't throw a fit and quit like that if he were scum being correctly sussed

if I'm wrong and the slot flips scum that would be sweet obviously but it also feels like people are being lazy and punting on the 'which PR is lying' question. and Meuh also not really resisting the wagon despite wanting Dunn or myself is giving me heebie jeebies as well
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Post Post #1308 (isolation #89) » Tue Sep 12, 2023 12:18 pm

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In post 1281, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote: this feels like that time peta caught RH9 in PYP and he just immediately ghosted after throwing some random non answer at him

viewtopic.php?p=13647180#p13647180
I searched "RH9 replace" across boards to see his history of replacing out

in addition to the game you mentioned here the only other example I could find was moderators of the discord server which like half of this game was in and Luke already linked lol

I'm skimming through his ISO to compare here and also understand why he repped out in that game but seems like he thought Faker was pissed at him? I don't see anything similar that happened here and I'm struggling to figure out what prompted it
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Post Post #1337 (isolation #90) » Wed Sep 13, 2023 8:32 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

VOTE: Meuh

I can't get myself to buy that catboi's rep out comes from scum

especially since this is literally Prism's game, it just feels like that'd be such poor form to do that as mafia

and I think Meuh didn't care if the RH9 lim went through or not
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Post Post #1338 (isolation #91) » Wed Sep 13, 2023 8:34 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

I'll be around for like 30 min if anyone else is online rn but it's been a long busy day and I am tired - I will def be around and available tomorrow
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Post Post #1350 (isolation #92) » Thu Sep 14, 2023 5:31 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

UNVOTE:
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Post Post #1363 (isolation #93) » Thu Sep 14, 2023 7:01 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1355, Lukewarm wrote: GL, you making it clear you are keeping up with the thread -- but also ignoring pooky's sure does make me queasy
I was waiting for him to respond to your question about it

He's right that's how I voted both times but if I were scum here I would have just hammered RH9 slot when I had the opportunity and not even let a new player into the game, that's all risk and no gain for me as scum

I feel like I keep raising this point about catboi replacing out being really odd and honestly borderline tactical if he's scum and nobody is really addressing it

for that reason I think Meuh is a better lim here
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Post Post #1364 (isolation #94) » Thu Sep 14, 2023 7:04 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

I also don't buy Meuhs claim of mindmelding with RH9 and her going silent when he was almost limmed
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Post Post #1365 (isolation #95) » Thu Sep 14, 2023 7:18 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1359, SirCakez wrote: It could very easily just be Meuh/RH9 too, that seems like the most obvious explanation to me
Is that because you scumread both players or are you seeing associatives between them

I think Meuh scum doesn't just let her buddy get limmed like that
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Post Post #1470 (isolation #96) » Fri Sep 15, 2023 7:48 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

I'm not ghosting keep your pants on

I've read through and I'm trying to chew on Luke's argument for limming RH9 and whether it's Ali/Cakez or a non-Ali team, cause I don't think Ali/Meuh makes sense. and I agree with Dunn's point too that there's no way it's Ali/Dunn

going back and highlighting some individual posts in a sec
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Post Post #1471 (isolation #97) » Fri Sep 15, 2023 8:23 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1368, Lukewarm wrote: Quietly hoping that the wagon will lose steam on its own is not all that uncommon for scum to do imo.
as a general rule I disagree with this because I think scum usually feel pressured to Have a Stance on their partner as they understand people are gonna be going back and looking at people's reads on the flipped scum. if Meuh is doing buddies with RH9 here she was keeping him in a very null-y tier:
In post 1257, Meuh wrote: I think Pooky flips scum more than RH9 at this point, but I probably should give a closer look to his ISO.
In post 1259, Meuh wrote: Dunn > GL > Pooky > RH9 > Cakez > Lukewarm
My lim preference at the moment
I guess it's possible she's just trying to coast and skate by without a firm read on her buddy but I am not sensing a real agenda positioning around an upcoming incriminating flip. she was advocating (somewhat strongly) that Dunn/I were the scum team and in the RH9/Meuh world that theory would be immediately dead when either of us green flipped.

I think the Meuh/Dunn interactions are much more likely to be S-S given how decisively Meuh was pushing Dunn earlier yet how much that's tapered off (despite her still claiming to scumread him).

and if Dunn is scum then chaining me to him makes sense too
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Post Post #1472 (isolation #98) » Fri Sep 15, 2023 8:30 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1369, Lukewarm wrote: I think that I am committing to the idea that RH is the better elim.

The transition from RH e-1, to Meuh e-1 was too smooth and easy. Not a hint of resistance from anyone but me - actually, every single one of the potential Meuh partners happily encouraging the Meuh elim > the RH elim.

That transition feels like the scum team either:
-Does not care which one goes over because both are town.
-Prefer the Meuh elim, beacuse Meuh is town.
-Is exactly Meuh+RH, and therefore could not influence the transition basically at all.

None of those worlds have scum meuh / town RH, which makes me think that RH/Ali is the more correct play.
adding onto Meuh/Dunn theory, then this would mean Dunn playing around his current good standing + a Meuh bus would be enough to ride through to a win. also there'd still be an option for RH9 to get limmed first, he may not have even fully expected that Cakez and I would both jump onto his wagon, he floated going back to RH9 before Cakez switched soon after
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Post Post #1473 (isolation #99) » Fri Sep 15, 2023 8:34 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1390, Dunnstral wrote: Well there's an hour between those two posts. If we were mafia together I'd like to think we'd be talking with each other after their 2 vt slip and come up with something better than 1097, which is in response to my post and looks bad for them.


referenced this a few posts ago but wanted to specifically add that regardless of Dunn's alignment, I think this is true. would be a completely unforced error and I think RH9 as scum with Dunn would 100% post in the PT first prior to responding in main thread, especially if he's unsure what to do
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Post Post #1474 (isolation #100) » Fri Sep 15, 2023 8:39 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1395, Lukewarm wrote: I am not understanding how cakez got from here, to arguing that Meuh is the definitively better elim.
on this (and the bigger post immediately prior)

I see where you are coming from and there's certainly a world where you're onto this and it's scum indicative, but Cakez is frequently a mercurial player and it's not hard for me to imagine him doing this as town either. I think you're also overstating the extent to which he was really arguing Meuh was definitively better

a lot of his ISO made more sense to me again when I reread it thinking PR=miller whenever he talks about setup speculation, he's been pretty consistent throughout that he thinks Meuh is a good bet for scum
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Post Post #1475 (isolation #101) » Fri Sep 15, 2023 8:44 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1430, Alisae wrote:
In post 1154, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote: I think if theres a mafia in the three PRs it would have to be Dunnstral for balance reasons
what did dunn do to luke at night then aside from visit?
I think if Dunn is scum is maybe an investigative like rolecop or tracker and Luke outing meant his role didn't have any real utility so it was worth building a plausible claim in the event that he's tracked

I do think tracker + RBer is a lot of power in the event scum dies D1, maybe both scum have PRs
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Post Post #1476 (isolation #102) » Fri Sep 15, 2023 8:45 pm

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In post 1450, Dunnstral wrote: Also I wished they talked about Meuh and Guiltylion
do you think this is scum-indicative, and if so, how
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Post Post #1477 (isolation #103) » Fri Sep 15, 2023 8:46 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

anyway, those are my thoughts

I will likely vote Meuh again but that would give Alisae the hammer so I'm holding off a little bit longer
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Post Post #1484 (isolation #104) » Fri Sep 15, 2023 9:34 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1483, Dunnstral wrote: Because they are not pushing or townreading the players who I feel attention should be focused on. Yes I do think it is scum indicative.
if "attention should be focused on" both Meuh and GuiltyLion, that would be because one of us is scum with Alisae, yes? given that your vote is on Meuh you're saying the team must be exactly Alisae+Meuh? and how come it's scummy to not talk about me in that world, all three players can't all be scum
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Post Post #1516 (isolation #105) » Sat Sep 16, 2023 1:26 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1485, Dunnstral wrote: I didn't say that was the team. I don't think it is Alisae + Meuh because of the way Meuh turned their read around on the slot for survival.
ok I guess I just don't understand why you think Alisae's catchup was scummy then
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Post Post #1517 (isolation #106) » Sat Sep 16, 2023 1:31 pm

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In post 1488, Meuh wrote: I feel like every once in a while someone checks in and goes “Meuh/Dunn, amirite?” and that makes me think Dunn is even more likely to be scum, cause scum would adoreeeeee lumping me in there and getting me as a mislim at some point (I think Pooky, Cakez, elle, and now GL have all pushed it?)
assuming scum!Dunn then three of these players have to be town? and why even mention elle she's not here, it's Luke in that slot and he has expressed the opposite conclusion, he does not think Meuh/Dunn is a thing
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Post Post #1518 (isolation #107) » Sat Sep 16, 2023 1:35 pm

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In post 1495, Lukewarm wrote:
In post 1471, GuiltyLion wrote: I think the Meuh/Dunn interactions are much more likely to be S-S given how decisively Meuh was pushing Dunn earlier yet how much that's tapered off (despite her still claiming to scumread him).
I lowkey think that if Meuh is scum, then Dunn is The Least Likely Partner on the player list.

Dunn voting Meuh, when he was already on an e-1 RH wagon was completely unforced. A lot of people had voiced suspicions on Meuh, and her wagon gaining momentum was not unexpected. Hell, 8 hours before I voted RH, this was my own stance
In post 1255, Lukewarm wrote: I think that my number 1 choice for elimination today is Meuh.
Furthermore, if he WAS partners with Meuh, I don't think he posts , double checking if anyone wants to elim Meuh -- he just takes the opportunity to move his vote back off of her "because of the lack of interest."
I think this is another case where we just have very different ideas about what scum are most likely to do

if Dunn was a newbie I'd be more inclined to agree with you but imo these actions are exactly designed to look unpaired with Meuh rather than being genuine. like why is Dunn saying now that he thinks Alisae's catchup was scummy?
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Post Post #1519 (isolation #108) » Sat Sep 16, 2023 1:38 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1497, Lukewarm wrote: Open question to the Player List:

If you were choosing between only Catboi/RH/Ali Slot and Cakez, which would you choose?
I'd vote the trio-slot on the offchance it is just Meuh+RH and I've been mistakenly overcomplicating the game

I also see Ali's self vote and I generally want to kill anyone that self votes
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Post Post #1520 (isolation #109) » Sat Sep 16, 2023 1:42 pm

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Ali who do you think makes sense as Pooky's partner

I see you TR'd both Cakez and Dunn, but also said that's too much power for a micro - what's your read on Cakez, it's not clear to me
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Post Post #1536 (isolation #110) » Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:33 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

I'm not scum

Cakez I think it is time for you to claim who you attempted to roleblock, when you did it, and why

I'm still leaning towards my Meuh/Dunn theory but that opening is not good Cakez
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Post Post #1537 (isolation #111) » Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:35 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1428, Alisae wrote: if a mafia dies on d1, town can essentially get 2 clears for basically free if a kill happens.
also Cakez do you have any thoughts on this

I still think it's extremely bizarre that both you and Dunn seem to have no issue with a 9 player set up containing all of a Tracker, Doctor, Roleblocker
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Post Post #1549 (isolation #112) » Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:30 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1541, SirCakez wrote:
In post 1536, GuiltyLion wrote: I'm still leaning towards my Meuh/Dunn theory but that opening is not good Cakez
Also this is so obviously telegraphing a move later and feels like a manufactured trajectory
?? What an I telegraphing? I'm town and the first thing you said today is you want to lim me, that's Not Good especially when Meuh was your preferred lim yesterday
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Post Post #1570 (isolation #113) » Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:41 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1558, SirCakez wrote:
In post 1549, GuiltyLion wrote:
In post 1541, SirCakez wrote:
In post 1536, GuiltyLion wrote: I'm still leaning towards my Meuh/Dunn theory but that opening is not good Cakez
Also this is so obviously telegraphing a move later and feels like a manufactured trajectory
?? What an I telegraphing? I'm town and the first thing you said today is you want to lim me, that's Not Good especially when Meuh was your preferred lim yesterday
I've said for a while I think one scum in VT claims, one scum in PR claims. The other VT claim died. Doesn't really leave other options for scum in the VT claims!
Do you have any reasoning for scumreading me beyond this

I'm not scum so falling back on a mech POE argument as reason to vote me is not exactly compelling to me here or demonstrating that your intentions are honest

let's entertain the idea of a Meuh/GL team. That would make Luke, Dunn, and Cakez all town with unlimmable claims on D1. That would also mean Pooky is town miller, which means you'd expect the tracker to investigate elsewhere. what exactly is the scumteam going to do if one of them gets limmed on D1? like that setup would be just absurdly townsided, how do you not see that?
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Post Post #1571 (isolation #114) » Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:49 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1569, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote: so if one of dunnstral/cakes is mafia, as long as the other one who is town believes that person is town - we have basically lost because they tight.

if dunnstral is mafia, cakes won't vote him, if cakes is mafia, dunnstral won't vote him.

so disregarding those game states because those are loss states - our only chance to win is if dunn/cakes both town
??? This logic is literally giving up on the game??

We need to decide which of Dunn/Cakez is scum and yeet them otherwise this is a guaranteed loss bc I'm town and both of them have indicated they have me in their solve

I suspect Cakez is just like horrifically pocketed and Dunnscum is goading him on knowing that limming me wins the game but idk why I can't seem to get through to him that the setup isn't balanced if Dunn is town when he is claiming to be the role that makes it unbalanced
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Post Post #1589 (isolation #115) » Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:49 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1573, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote: so u think its dunn+meuh?
yeah I still think so, that's what I'd bet on but I'm not certain. meuh's confidence in scun!Dumm feels a lot to me like when scum make an informed push trying to bus/distance from their buddy

I'm just not understanding Cakez PoV on town!Dunn and assuming he's town I also don't know how I can get him to see me

I get what you're saying about a lack of no-kill being weird if maf!Dunn & town!Cakez but a town!Cakez could also potentially get tracked by Luke and soft cleared
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Post Post #1590 (isolation #116) » Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:57 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1576, Dunnstral wrote:How are we "unlimmable claims" when mafia can fake claim stuff. Also Luke was the only PR claim on day 1 and they weren't targeted with a kill at that point despite being as you claim an "unlimmable claim", so doesn't that suggest mafia were wary of a protective?
I'm speaking on D1 specifically, most towns aren't going to push through a lim on a claimed PR on D1 unless there's a direct CC

Idk how to interpret the night kill I need to go back and reread what Luke's reads were at the time of N1 but my point is to reiterate what Ali already stated: if you have a role blocker and a tracker in a game with 2 scum, one scum flipping is a catastrophic swing in town power because that's two roles that can become virtual cops and can get either innos or guilties.

I'm also struggling to think of how you could have a mafia PR that makes sense to deal with that, bc if one player is a Ninja or a Strongman or whatever then their flip would still just validate the townie claiming to be the role that the scum role flipped is specifically supposed to circumvent. I don't trust set ups that seem like they can pretty straightforwardly lead to a game over on D2 like this, AND this game is clearly off the rails at this point
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Post Post #1591 (isolation #117) » Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:09 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

also is it really happening now that all three of you agree on a Meuh/GL team solve

in what world have 3 townies in ELO so quickly agreed on anything, let alone a correct solve
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Post Post #1593 (isolation #118) » Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:24 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

idk man I'm trying but I guess I'm gonna have to sit down and Effort This instead of just pointing out the setup imbalance over and over again lol
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Post Post #1596 (isolation #119) » Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:57 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

if Cakez is town there can't be a protective on top of that too

I can buy 1.5 investigatives but throwing another full protective in as well is just no way, it's just too many PR claim overall. plus also if it's Meuh/GL then consider this - that would mean mafia team decided our best fake claims were Miller (unprovoked) and VT? seriously?

if I was going on nothing but the claims alone I feel a RB is actually more suspicious since at least we know Dunn did visit Luke, but Dunn's play feels a lot scummier on the whole to me and Meuh is right that the way he went about claiming feels like it was focused on clearing himself rather than a natural townie claim
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Post Post #1664 (isolation #120) » Thu Sep 21, 2023 4:59 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

hi y'all just briefly checking in, I don't have time to really play yet but want to acknowledge the cross vote and help rule out any non-Meuh/Dunn scum-pairs if Pooky or Cakez is around to also post

Meuh appealing to me just now is a bit ?? if this is all theater with her and Dunn, but I don't want to commit to anything until I've reread D1 and have time to effort post
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Post Post #1667 (isolation #121) » Thu Sep 21, 2023 5:06 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

Sweet hello

Ok I'm fine with voting next but I'm out right now and will be at computer later, I will reread and share thoughts and stuff but not going to rush so be prepared for a smol wait
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Post Post #1678 (isolation #122) » Thu Sep 21, 2023 6:57 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

ok so here's my thinking:

- by claims we have one scum max, but not two in Cakez/Dunn

- if Dunn scum, voting Meuh is correct if it's Meuh/Dunn, loss if it's Pooky/Dunn
- if Dunn town, voting Meuh is correct

so as long as pooky is town then voting Meuh cannot lose the game because Cakez/Dunn pair is already effectively ruled out

and Meuh suddenly pivoting to scumreading Pooky at the 11th hour and appealing to me to 'save her' feels like she knows I'm town... I should definitely be a suspect to her
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Post Post #1679 (isolation #123) » Thu Sep 21, 2023 6:58 pm

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I started trying to reread the game but eventually I was skimming through a bunch of pages of dead townies posts and I felt like nothing useful was happening

I did find this post though which is maybe cheeky
In post 269, Meuh wrote:
In post 220, elle (1L) wrote: i think if one of pooky/meuh are a scums then odds of dunnstral also being a scums go up due to emphasis on millers normal

which made an announcement re:millers at gamestart importantly
Spoiler:
Image

Throwback to the Invictus Meuh/Dunn scumteam accusations
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Post Post #1680 (isolation #124) » Thu Sep 21, 2023 7:03 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

aaaAAah Cakez how sure are you that Pooky is town

like on a scale of 1 to 10

do you think he is trying to bait me into voting Meuh here
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Post Post #1686 (isolation #125) » Thu Sep 21, 2023 9:06 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

shh y'all let me hear from Cakez

I don't want to throw the game away yet in the one exact world where voting Meuh is a loss

and both of you goading me on isn't helping
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Post Post #1702 (isolation #126) » Fri Sep 22, 2023 4:35 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1688, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:
In post 1686, GuiltyLion wrote: shh y'all let me hear from Cakez

I don't want to throw the game away yet in the one exact world where voting Meuh is a loss

and both of you goading me on isn't helping
this is a wild take - the idea that I am trying to goad you into voting meuh? where the hell am i trying to do that
It's just a feeling man

Everybody is OK with voting Meuh, Dunn votes Meuh, then you said I have to be the next person to vote and posting about how hard it would be for scum!GL to make a decision here

I get being paranoid of me but I am allowed to be paranoid of you as well here and what it looks like for me to vote wrong or be wrong in my reads
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Post Post #1705 (isolation #127) » Fri Sep 22, 2023 4:56 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

alright I see what you are saying, I guess I might be projecting you wanting me to vote as you wanting me to vote Meuh specifically because I was thinking about voting Meuh lol
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Post Post #1709 (isolation #128) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 4:31 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1687, Dunnstral wrote: To me it looks like the mafia have decided to kill me at night and are now trying to convince SirCakez to vote for Pooky in final 3.

Or at least shopping around for the above possibility, seeing what SirCakez thinks
In post 1707, Dunnstral wrote: So what was the purpose in GuiltyLion asking SirCakez for their read on Pooky?
these are scumposts

I am town and trying to be sure I am not blowing the game here and Dunn is just finding whatever reason he can to shade me or implicitly call me mafia for it
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Post Post #1710 (isolation #129) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 4:38 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 981, Prism wrote:
PlayerVotes
Ydrasse
(5)
Bell (759), Dunnstral (823), PookyTheMagicalBear (886), GuiltyLion (891), Lukewarm (975)
SirCakez
(2)
Meuh (835), RH9 (845)
GuiltyLion
(2)
SirCakez (590), Ydrasse (893)
Not Voting
(0)
this most likely rules out Cakez/Meuh as a team, I don't think Ydrasse goes through without at least one scum pushing it
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Post Post #1711 (isolation #130) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 4:41 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 610, Dunnstral wrote: Ydrasse what are you seeing as wolfposting?
In post 823, Dunnstral wrote: VOTE: Ydrasse

This is what I am feeling right now. Looking back at Ydrasse' recent stances I am not impressed.
this is literally Dunn's entire D1 progression on Ydrasse btw
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Post Post #1712 (isolation #131) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 4:44 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1530, Prism wrote:
PlayerVotes
Alisae
(4)
Lukewarm (1289), Meuh (1332), Alisae (1508), SirCakez (1525)
Meuh
(1)
Dunnstral (1303)
Not Voting
(2)
GuiltyLion (1350), PookyTheMagicalBear (1466)
also telling that Meuh was not voting Dunn here

gonna reread how Meuh's read/progression on Dunn evolved, I remember her saying she thought RH9 was town but that she'd rather not die, then changing it to a scumread
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Post Post #1713 (isolation #132) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 4:54 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1311, Meuh wrote: I've read the posting around it but I don't feel like I've digested it super well
Rep out looks bad but I still think a lot of RH9's posting was good and it felt like our thoughts clicked quite a bit, but I may be overestimating that mindmeld
I don't really feel like my input would actually change whether RH9 gets hammered or not (and it seems like the lack thereof got Dunn to vote for me, which is more than me commenting on it would've done :dead:)
I instinctively felt the urge to rush to comment but I realized my take on RH9 didn't actually merit urgency so I just didn't, would it really have done much? Maybe I'm disillusioned for no good reason, meh
Dunn is never happening either way
, maybe I could make some cool case for GL being scum but I don't have the confidence or the energy in that read to build a real case right now. and I'm too murky on RH9 to provide meaningful insight either
weird thing to say about the person you're most sure is scum

and I think the "I could make some case for GL but I don't have the confidence/energy" thing was a means to avoid me death tunneling her for making shit up about me
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Post Post #1714 (isolation #133) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:00 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1483, Dunnstral wrote:
In post 1476, GuiltyLion wrote:
In post 1450, Dunnstral wrote: Also I wished they talked about Meuh and Guiltylion
do you think this is scum-indicative, and if so, how
Because they are not pushing or townreading the players who I feel attention should be focused on. Yes I do think it is scum indicative.
In post 1484, GuiltyLion wrote:
In post 1483, Dunnstral wrote: Because they are not pushing or townreading the players who I feel attention should be focused on. Yes I do think it is scum indicative.
if "attention should be focused on" both Meuh and GuiltyLion, that would be because one of us is scum with Alisae, yes? given that your vote is on Meuh you're saying the team must be exactly Alisae+Meuh? and how come it's scummy to not talk about me in that world, all three players can't all be scum
this sequence from Dunn still incredibly scummy btw

"Alisae is scummy for not talking about Meuh & GuiltyLion... but Alisae is not paired with Meuh... who I am voting"
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Post Post #1715 (isolation #134) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:01 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1485, Dunnstral wrote: I didn't say that was the team. I don't think it is Alisae + Meuh because of the way Meuh turned their read around on the slot for survival.
EBWOP sorry dropped the third post in that sequence
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Post Post #1716 (isolation #135) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:10 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

VOTE: Dunn

I want to lim here first I think it's a better shot of winning than the world where Meuh flips scum and it's GL vs Dunn in 3p

and I think Meuh/Cakez or Meuh/Pooky are less likely than Pooky/Dunn so this is a safer vote at the margins as well

rereading Dunn's ISO and I am most confident this is not wrong
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Post Post #1721 (isolation #136) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:17 am

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I'm like 95% sure it isn't Cakez/Meuh, there's no way that team gets Ydrasse eliminated on D1 unless town epically self-imploded
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Post Post #1723 (isolation #137) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:17 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 835, Meuh wrote:
In post 834, SirCakez wrote:
In post 831, Meuh wrote: Cakez are you scum
is there ever a right answer to this question lmao
If there is one, it's definitely not this
VOTE: SirCakez
I also don't think this is D1 theater
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Post Post #1725 (isolation #138) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:20 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1722, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:
In post 1721, GuiltyLion wrote: I'm like 95% sure it isn't Cakez/Meuh, there's no way that team gets Ydrasse eliminated on D1 unless town epically self-imploded
why wouldnt town self implode
how often do you see all town miselim on D1

it's gotta be extremely rare and even then still requires some scum engineering behind the scenes
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Post Post #1727 (isolation #139) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:22 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

Cakez was the CW for a lot of the day though

and Meuh was voting Cakez

if I'm wrong I guess we'll find out soon
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Post Post #1737 (isolation #140) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:48 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

pooky are you trying to push my Dunn/Pooky paranoia button lmao

why would you post and
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Post Post #1739 (isolation #141) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:49 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

Cakez what about them was unconvincing??

or like, is there some specific reason you're seeing me as scum besides believing Dunn's claim / POE?
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Post Post #1742 (isolation #142) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:50 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1738, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote: if cakes votes meuh and you dont hammer her then i will know its not you/dunnstral
yeah but if it's Pooky/Dunn then Cakez voting Meuh wins the game and it feels like you're being buddy buddy with him
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Post Post #1743 (isolation #143) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:50 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

my main angle is I'm not scum
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Post Post #1749 (isolation #144) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:53 am

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I just don't get why you're like, deferring to Cakez so much, and reassuring him that if you lose then it's fine

it feels like you want him to vote Meuh before you do
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Post Post #1751 (isolation #145) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:56 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

but if you are worried it's Dunn/GL why post
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Post Post #1883 (isolation #146) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:52 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

Yooooo I'm in transit between a wedding and an afterparty and drunk so can't play "decent mafia" yet but I'll be around tomorrow and playing on my flight and whatnot
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Post Post #1884 (isolation #147) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:52 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

did Dunn actually scumslip when he had a chance to win the game lmfao
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Post Post #1885 (isolation #148) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:53 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

glad to see I wasn't limmed and the team was confirmed

Pooky if I were scum and knew you were town I wouldn't be paranoid of you at all I'd know you were town like me being unsure is proof that I'm town
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Post Post #1886 (isolation #149) » Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:54 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

anyway yah will post tomorrow love ya folks be safe enjoy yr Saturday
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Post Post #1891 (isolation #150) » Sun Sep 24, 2023 11:36 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1777, Meuh wrote: Pooky if you're town let's win this game
In post 1792, Meuh wrote: Do you think it can be GL/Dunn? Do you even think it can ever be Pooky? If not, unless you think it’s me+Dunn, why don’t you want GL as the vote here?
Meuh gives it away here

We hadn't confirmed Pooky as town at the time when she made these posts. If she were town, then from her point of view, I am not confirmed scum. but the second she senses that Pooky is waffling about who to vote and there's a GL+Dunn idea floated about (previously Meuh's solve was Pooky/Dunn), she suddenly has energy and motivation to write a GL/Dunn associative case, starts appealing to Pooky directly, and lobbies to
switch votes off of a conf scum
to me.

Town would absolutely not risk pivoting to voting me when they're in a cross with confscum. this was a concerted effort to win the game when she thought she might have one
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Post Post #1893 (isolation #151) » Sun Sep 24, 2023 11:42 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 1655, Meuh wrote: It really is just Pooky/Dunn
Please let me scumcase Pooky before putting a vote on me, we have time
In post 1662, Meuh wrote: GL come save me the wolves are after me :(
here's where she was appealing to me previously

why and how would Meuh evolve to GL/Dunn solve after I vote Dunn alongside her

all she said about Pooky was she "didn't despise" (??) his posting but once it's clear she may have an angle to push me instead she takes it after afk'ing most of the earlier day phase

only once Meuh sussed out that a) I was more suspected than Pooky was by Cakez and b) Pooky was taking charge of dictating the ELO then she magically developed a TR on him. it's a fake progression
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Post Post #1898 (isolation #152) » Sun Sep 24, 2023 11:54 am

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I also think the idea that I'm scum voting my buddy in this situation here is generally just absurd on its face

I wouldn't pivot to voting my buddy at the last hour when we virtually have the game in the bag to miseliminate a town!Meuh

like my main motivation for voting him over you was not to play against Dunn in f3 I hate a f3 and I figured if he's town we've lost regardless

if I were scum with him then this game would be over already
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Post Post #1899 (isolation #153) » Sun Sep 24, 2023 11:55 am

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In post 1897, Meuh wrote: Pooky you should vote Dunn and make sure we get to day 4 :heart_eyes_cat:
more rushing the vote
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Post Post #1900 (isolation #154) » Sun Sep 24, 2023 11:57 am

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Meuh's WIM in this game is directly correlated to how much suspicion is on me
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Post Post #1907 (isolation #155) » Sun Sep 24, 2023 12:39 pm

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In post 1905, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote: also GL you know Meuh isn't actually confirmed scum to you atp right

we could actually be playing 1 tracker 2 miller rofl
??

she voted me, she's scum lol
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Post Post #1908 (isolation #156) » Sun Sep 24, 2023 12:40 pm

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In post 1904, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:
In post 1900, GuiltyLion wrote: Meuh's WIM in this game is directly correlated to how much suspicion is on me
why wouldnt this be true if she's town and thinks you're mafia
she's not town though

again she only started scumreading me when you indicated scumread on me. not a moment before
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Post Post #1909 (isolation #157) » Sun Sep 24, 2023 12:42 pm

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In post 1906, Meuh wrote: Like your posting here implicates that you see Pooky and Cakez' votes as linked here since you think Pooky alone is dictating ELO
no it doesn't, it's referring to how Pooky was suggesting vote order and pushing back on Cakez wanting to vote you

you invented this "their votes are linked" narrative yourself
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Post Post #1915 (isolation #158) » Sun Sep 24, 2023 2:10 pm

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While I maintain that Meuh is trying to pocket yall and convert momentum against me into a win I'm fine with a Dunn hammer obviously
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Post Post #1920 (isolation #159) » Sun Sep 24, 2023 3:04 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

VOTE: Meuh

Alright let's do Meuh
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Post Post #1963 (isolation #160) » Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:10 pm

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gg all, I apologize for being a manipulative scumbutt

Pooky I'm curious (if you feel like sharing) what made you see Meuh and I as unpaired, on D3 I was trying to make us seem like a team and I thought it could work fairly well up until Meuh started calling us out nonstop towards the end there

as scum I'm not sure how the setup would feel for town but I don't have any complaints. I do think we played too passively around the miller claims at the start and it definitely made the mech play for us more interesting in terms of NKs and how to push people. we certainly benefited as scum from the "there can't be two millers" idea and Dunn getting tracked to Luke giving him some towncred, but I like the reasoning of punishing early claims, on the flip side it's v frustrating as scum when your D1 miselim pushes wind up claiming PRs and I liked that it gave us some useful counterplay - though it's easy for me to say that as mafia :D

thank you so much for hosting the game Prism, I had fun!
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Post Post #1971 (isolation #161) » Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:30 pm

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ah yes I am sorry for my oversight, thank you ffery for co-modding as well! :]

the dead thread was a good read lol

I didn't think to check whether Beholder was a normal role or not when Dunn suggested it, I just went with it. it was wild when RH9 randomly brought it up unprompted hahaha
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