Newbie 2012 - Game Over

[72offsuit]

VOTE: WaltertheDunce10

Because 10 = 2, and there are 2 mafia.

1 scum down, 1 to go.

[72offsuit]

In binary*

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Hey Walter, as a side note,
Having an avatar helps others with reading the thread, particularly when skimming through, as it helps others identifying your posts at a a glance.

[72offsuit]

Of the playing roster, Ive previously played with 3bounty, and very briefly with GuiltyLion

[72offsuit]

Looks like we're playing together again pii. What's up bud.

Oh yeah

VOTE: Micc

As a golden gopher fan, I can't believe he's broadcasting that thing in his avatar.

Protip: You can only vote for players in the game, and not the moderator.

Player list:
3bounty
piisirrational
WaltertheDunce10
ItalianoVD
UNOwen
Ydrasse
DoctorPepper (SE)
GuiltyLion (SE)
72offsuit (SE)

[72offsuit]

Looks like we're playing together again pii. What's up bud.

Oh yeah

VOTE: Micc

As a golden gopher fan, I can't believe he's broadcasting that thing in his avatar.

VOTE: Italiano

Let's leave RVS. Anyone can tell me why this vote is scummy?

Signalling leaving RvS pretty much defeats the purpose of what follows.

It's like telling someone, "don't worry, there won't be any side effects to this new medication, it's just a placebo".

[72offsuit]

first!

VOTE: DoctorPepper

Right back at ya buddy!

VOTE: GuiltyLion

-0.25 points for wasting a vote by OMGUSing voting an SE who isn;t going to tell you squat from his reaction

[72offsuit]

Looks like we're playing together again pii. What's up bud.

Oh yeah

VOTE: Micc

As a golden gopher fan, I can't believe he's broadcasting that thing in his avatar.

VOTE: Italiano

Let's leave RVS. Anyone can tell me why this vote is scummy?

Signalling leaving RvS pretty much defeats the purpose of what follows.

It's like telling someone, "don't worry, there won't be any side effects to this new medication, it's just a placebo".

Sorry but what was the point of that post?

Hello everyone
This looks like a good place to start VOTE: ItalianoVD

Signalling leaving RvS pretty much defeats the purpose of what follows.

It's like telling someone, "don't worry, there won't be any side effects to this new medication, it's just a placebo".

Can you explain what you mean by this?

I'm saying DP's "Let's leave RVS" is LAMISTY and forced. Doesn't sound natural to me.

[72offsuit]

I agree with your point on Owen ,but it is in the early stages.
I don't know if 26 is indicative of anything yet.

Fence-sitting. Why mention it if you aren't going to make a call either way?

Scum points: -0.25

[72offsuit]

@ Everyone:

1) What is your experience with playing mafia?
2) Do you prefer playing town or scum?
3) What do you think of the Policy lynch of Lynch All Lurkers?

[72offsuit]

^ then what's the point of RVS then?
Even if it's a random vote, the point of RVS is to gain information from why the random votes were made. I.e. if you give a vote without information, then it's a reason to talk about you.

That being said, I actually think 72 is scummier, but lets wait for Italiano

So what is !scum72offsuit's agenda and how does it further !scum victory condition?

[72offsuit]

By the way, need more votes on Dunce.

Classic greeting-the-entire-thread scum tell:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=79490

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Well you're clearly discrediting my take as being forced.

Would it have been different if I didn't say "let's leave RVS"?

1. What do you mean by "discrediting"?
I'm saying your post gives me a non-genuine/forced/fake sort of vibe.

2. Yes, as the "let's leave RVS" on its own is LAMISTY. The argument against Italiano, independently of "let's leave RVS" though, is really lame.
I don;t see a scum-rolling player sitting there thinking, "oh gee, I'm really worried my RVS-vote (which is exactly what is expected of you and what pretty much everyone is doing) will draw suspicion towards, I'll vote the mod instead"

3. Do you think RVS voting the mod is scummier, less scummy, or neither, as compared to not RVS voting at all?

[72offsuit]

EBWOP: towards me*

[72offsuit]

Hey everyone. I'm coming in witH the two following questions that I would like all to answer please. Mostly for fun since it's so early in the game.

1) Random guess or analysis of what we have so far, take a crack at the scumteam. Who is the mafia team in this game?
2) If you were mafia in this game, who would you like to be your partner, or who would most likely be your partner.

1) Dunce+Unowen. Gut.
2) Would like: GuiltyLion. Most likely Ydrasse.

[72offsuit]

1. Saying my post is non genuine or forced IS DISCREDITING. It's like you're saying in posting for the sake of being active instead of actually hunting
2. the point of RVS is to see where the votes go and to create a starting point. Voting for the mod is a classic non committal vote common and it's something that deprives us of any info. Yes they could do that because scum might not want be linked to anything. The point is, distilling it to "this is shallow" is discrediting the entire premise of it and just flat out paints me as scummy for having legitimate concerns. Also saying let's leave RVS doesn't really do much except signify that it's a serious vote. Would you have batted an eye if I said "serious vote" instead
3. Not voting at all isn't scummy if the player wasn't active. RVS voting the mod is scummier regardless because some people may not know of RVS. In fact, I've seen newbie games where town doesn't wanna participate in it

1. Ok. You seem particularly ready to attribute my read of your post as being LAMISTy and scummy, down to a scum agenda on my behalf. i.e discrediting my intentions. Hypocritical perhaps, no? Pot calling the kettle black?

2. Perhaps I am being caught up in the semantics of wording. But sometimes the choice of one's words can be telling. You could realistically have said phrase X (serious vote) , but instead you said Y (lets leave RVS)

3. OK. Fair.

[72offsuit]

not really, no. i feel that thinking it suspicious is a bit of a stretch, really — people in rvs are going to be a bit more silly/lighthearted until people start really scumhunting. that, and i'm of the opinion that mafia are more likely to come into this game with a serious attitude than something silly that draws attention to them.

A bit of stretching is necessary this early on or I don't know how progress would be made.

Agreed. Everything is a stretch at the start, and then as the day progresses more clues are revealed.

[72offsuit]

I'm saying DP's "Let's leave RVS" is LAMISTY and forced. Doesn't sound natural to me.

Ah right that makes sense. It was a bit forced, but I think it was sincere in pushing things forward.

@ Everyone:

1) What is your experience with playing mafia?
2) Do you prefer playing town or scum?
3) What do you think of the Policy lynch of Lynch All Lurkers?

Some casual games on different forums many years ago. I'm pretty sure I ended up making an account here and played a game or two but I didn't stick around.
Town
I approve

By the way, need more votes on Dunce.

Classic greeting-the-entire-thread scum tell:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=79490

What do you make of Ydrasse, myself and now JT who also did this?

Please elaborate on how something can be both forced, but also sincere?

[72offsuit]

I'm saying DP's "Let's leave RVS" is LAMISTY and forced. Doesn't sound natural to me.

Ah right that makes sense. It was a bit forced, but I think it was sincere in pushing things forward.

@ Everyone:

1) What is your experience with playing mafia?
2) Do you prefer playing town or scum?
3) What do you think of the Policy lynch of Lynch All Lurkers?

Some casual games on different forums many years ago. I'm pretty sure I ended up making an account here and played a game or two but I didn't stick around.
Town
I approve

By the way, need more votes on Dunce.

Classic greeting-the-entire-thread scum tell:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=79490

What do you make of Ydrasse, myself and now JT who also did this?

Was wondering who would ask me this first re: the hello greeting of others. Ill get back to you on this soon, just not yet, for my own reasons. If i haven't remembered to reanswer this later in rhis game day then please pull me up on it, but hopefully that wont b required

[72offsuit]

I think Ydrasse, UNOwen, DoctorPepper are all likely town

Im a bit torn regarding early outing of early town reads. Generally town read players just tend to get killed off and you get left with the scumbuckets. Though obviously taking a stance is important so others can get a read of yourself.

What are your thoughts re: the benefits of posting these early town reads vs the cons?

[72offsuit]

I find the whole modvote situation to have been artificially blown up. This sets my eyes early on Doctorpepper.

VOTE: Doctorpepper

I also don't like this vote

Why do you choose to describe it as "artificial"? What is the scum motive to play the way Doctorpepper is playing, and why is that more likely than town!Doctorpepper trying to find scum?

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

I called it artificial because that what it looks like. Basically I need a reason to start a push on someone to make myself useful to the town on page one, get early scumhunting credit and zoom out. I've seen this done before and always pings me early in games. Both Doctorpepper and Uno have done this with what I found to be a lol vote by Italiano.

Now don't get me wrong. Early game voting is always a crapshoot. So since Italiano was receiving early game pressure, I want to pressure the counterside and see reactions as well. Thus my vote.

1) Random guess or analysis of what we have so far, take a crack at the scumteam. Who is the mafia team in this game?
2) If you were mafia in this game, who would you like to be your partner, or who would most likely be your partner.

on the other hand, I don't really like these questions, they don't seem very likely to actually lead to useful content. We should always be talking about 1) in the general sense constantly anyways, and 2) is just a WIFOM fest

I really feel that town has nothing to lose by answering those questions. It can alert us of anyone potentially buddying us early in the game and gives us something to look back at later as the game progresses.

I do agree we should be sharing our reads constantly throughout the game. This is just a fun little encouragement to do so this early in.

Now as to the second point, I don't think WiFOM is all bad. I rather not answer why until more people answer the question. Then I will feel free explaining what I like about this question. This is also a trial run question for me.

I agree on your points, so far I would say my scum team would be 72 and Doctorpepper
2. Probably Guiltylion,
I am not sure why 72 would push for my lynch so quickly, it seems off to me.

1. You aren't doing youself a favour here. Pushing someone as being scum by using someone else's logic is scummy.
Oh I lynched a townie? Oh well wasnt my fault, it was player X's case, lets lynch player X now.

2. Why not? You don't see !townMe putting pressure on a player I see as scummy?

[72offsuit]

I find the whole modvote situation to have been artificially blown up. This sets my eyes early on Doctorpepper.

VOTE: Doctorpepper

I also don't like this vote

Why do you choose to describe it as "artificial"? What is the scum motive to play the way Doctorpepper is playing, and why is that more likely than town!Doctorpepper trying to find scum?

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

I called it artificial because that what it looks like. Basically I need a reason to start a push on someone to make myself useful to the town on page one, get early scumhunting credit and zoom out. I've seen this done before and always pings me early in games. Both Doctorpepper and Uno have done this with what I found to be a lol vote by Italiano.

Now don't get me wrong. Early game voting is always a crapshoot. So since Italiano was receiving early game pressure, I want to pressure the counterside and see reactions as well. Thus my vote.

1) Random guess or analysis of what we have so far, take a crack at the scumteam. Who is the mafia team in this game?
2) If you were mafia in this game, who would you like to be your partner, or who would most likely be your partner.

on the other hand, I don't really like these questions, they don't seem very likely to actually lead to useful content. We should always be talking about 1) in the general sense constantly anyways, and 2) is just a WIFOM fest

I really feel that town has nothing to lose by answering those questions. It can alert us of anyone potentially buddying us early in the game and gives us something to look back at later as the game progresses.

I do agree we should be sharing our reads constantly throughout the game. This is just a fun little encouragement to do so this early in.

Now as to the second point, I don't think WiFOM is all bad. I rather not answer why until more people answer the question. Then I will feel free explaining what I like about this question. This is also a trial run question for me.

I agree on your points, so far I would say my scum team would be 72 and Doctorpepper
2. Probably Guiltylion,
I am not sure why 72 would push for my lynch so quickly, it seems off to me.

Can you elaborate further on why you see myself and DP as scum. Please distil the case, step by step, as if im a 9 year old, even if you have to repeat the logic presented my another player.

[72offsuit]

So DoctorPepper and UNOwen voting for me on day one without explanation. Seems pretty convenient. You two just shot up my scum read list.

What explanantions or case are you expecting early on in day 1 of the game?

[72offsuit]

I think Ydrasse, UNOwen, DoctorPepper are all likely town

You said you didn't like UNO not making his reasoning for his vote clear but yet you town read him. Please explain.

[72offsuit]

@Walter and Uno.
WHY do you prefer playing as town?

[72offsuit]

Pretty much everyone who saw my initial post for what it was seems the likeliest to be town so far to me. GuiltyLion, Ydrasse, 72 and pii. I’ve already mentioned my two top scumreads. (my voters)

Besides I’d love to believe I could work with Hobbes to find these scum and eventually solve this game, eh?

Just putting on my SE hat on here (my first time being an SE by the way)

If you are town here, my advice is just be careful in future games. If you scumread players who vote you and towneead people who have townread/defended/not attacked yourself over a post,
Scum can manipulate you based off that alone and ensure they dont scumread you.

Basically, if i was playing with you in a game following this eg Newbie 2020, then my scum strategy would be to buddy you, as i read you as a player susceptible to pocketing/buddying.

Then again, maybe im talking absolute crap, then take it with a pinch of salt.

[72offsuit]

Pretty much everyone who saw my initial post for what it was seems the likeliest to be town so far to me. GuiltyLion, Ydrasse, 72 and pii. I’ve already mentioned my two top scumreads. (my voters)

Besides I’d love to believe I could work with Hobbes to find these scum and eventually solve this game, eh?

Even though I find it scummy as well, I doubt both mafia would use the same point to push you early game. One of them to me is being truthful.

Where do I fall in your reads? And Walter?

Why ONE of them, why could both not be truthful? It doesn't sound like coming from your post you even consider yourself being wrong.

[72offsuit]

So DoctorPepper and UNOwen voting for me on day one without explanation. Seems pretty convenient. You two just shot up my scum read list.

this isn't really an inspiring post

Agree, without meaning to be harsh, just providing (possibly unwanted )feedback.

Imagine if the 8 other players also said, "hey, player X voted for me. I'm town, therefore player X is probably scum".

[72offsuit]

VOTE: TTJT

[72offsuit]

72offsuit's Unofficial Vote Count (UVC):

ItalianoVD (2) - DoctorPepper, UNOwen
TheThirteenthJT (3) - GuiltyLion, Ydrasse, 72offsuit
Ydrasse (1) - WaltertheDunce10
DoctorPepper (1) - TheThirteenthJT
UNOwen (1) - ItalianoVD

Not Voting (1) - piisirrational

TJT is at L-2

Please correct me if im wrong

[72offsuit]

Yeah that's a wasted vote.

UNVOTE: doctorpepper
I don't think there is such a thing as a wasted vote when things can be so easily retracted. Let me rephrase that, I don't think there is anything such as a wasted vote this early in the game. No one is exempt until confirmed town.

VOTE: doctorpepper

What's the purpose of this unvote and re-vote?

[72offsuit]

@ DP

do you mind answering my post 44 when you're back?

[72offsuit]

Please elaborate on how something can be both forced, but also sincere?

This is a newbie game, I can see an experienced player making statements with more authority than they otherwise would (especially in the very early game) in order to get things moving. So the "Let's leave RVS" was forced but the motivation behind it came across as sincere and not an attempt to put on "town leader" hat.

@Walter and Uno.
WHY do you prefer playing as town?

Murder mysteries are fun, I enjoy trying to figure things out.

Are you saying that you find trying to lead town as being scummy?

[72offsuit]

Pretty much everyone who saw my initial post for what it was seems the likeliest to be town so far to me. GuiltyLion, Ydrasse, 72 and pii. I’ve already mentioned my two top scumreads. (my voters)

Besides I’d love to believe I could work with Hobbes to find these scum and eventually solve this game, eh?

Even though I find it scummy as well, I doubt both mafia would use the same point to push you early game. One of them to me is being truthful.

Where do I fall in your reads? And Walter?

Why ONE of them, why could both not be truthful? It doesn't sound like coming from your post you even consider yourself being wrong.

You know you are right here. I was so focused on tHis point that I didn't give myself the option to say both are town. I think in reference to it I would have preferred to say something along the lines of ..

If there is scum in this push it would only be one and not both.

And this early in the game I know I could be wrong, well at any point I could be wrong. But if I don't push what I see or at least make an attempt to call something out that strikes me wrong, I am doing a disservice to myself and to my team.

And that's exactly my point why your post 82 is scummy.
It doesn't read to me as coming from a town mindset, ie - that of a player who is in the dark as to other's alignments.

Furthermore, I dislike your concern about how you are being read by others (walter), it gives me the impression of a mindset of scum-survivalism.

[72offsuit]

@ Everyone:

1) What is your experience with playing mafia?
2) Do you prefer playing town or scum?
3) What do you think of the Policy lynch of Lynch All Lurkers?

I forgot to ask, why the last question? I shouldn't have answered it because doesn't it tip off the mafia to be more or less active depending on peoples answers?

I've asked this question in a previous newbie game and I found it helpful.

It also forces players to take a stance on lurking. If a player says they think lurking is NAI (non-alignment-indicative) and then they later vote for a player for lurking, then you have a contradiction then.


I guess I can ask your 2nd question right back at you.
Hypothetical scenario: we are playing in Newbie #2020.
I am town and ask this question.
You are scum and see the responses.

Does !scumYou use these responses to adjust your playstyle?

[72offsuit]

@ ItalianoVD regarding reply to your post 136 :

1. My opinion of walter - slightly scummy
a) 30 sheeps GL's view of Owen without expanding and fence sits Re: 26. Then in 31 further adds to it as being a "good post" , which feels like pocketing

b) Says he thinks its a 72 + DP team, which is scummy for 2 reasons:
i) I don't think this scumteam seems believe from !TownWalter's PoV. Scum vs scum theatre seems like an unlikely thing to develop from page 1.
ii) It feels opportunistic to scumread both players in an early conflict - easy pickings for an easy mislynch, as can easily hop onto either potentially developing wagon

2. a) Walter - scum gut read - See above

b) Owen - scum gut read - 33 - felt like an overly defensive response


3. My impressions of GL is that they are a skilled, but not arrogant player, who has good reads.
Ydrasse as a possible partner as I havent addressed them. Scum theatre is hard and requires effort.

[72offsuit]

Ydrasse I am a skeptical person and I don't like townreading people. So I don't townread DrPepper but it instead ai now find him less suspicious than Unowen.

Also I think Walter was referencing my question to 72 as to why question number 3 is important. And how it could give scum a chance to change their gamestlye. Piisirrational coming in shortly after to post and popping out again would be exactly why. Has he now been lurking knowing we won't policy lynch? Or is it truly just not available currently to be posting a lot? That question could have influenced his play style if he is scum.

72 did I ask Walter for his read on me? I don't remember and I won't get much of a chance to look back this weekend. I normally don't ask people to read me unless I feel they are buddying me. Usually at that point I'll ask without referring to the buddying to see if it was them agreeing with my point or if there was I'll intentions behind it.

I do know I have my read on him earlier.

I'm getting scumvibes from quite a bit of people this game as well. Little ones that ive posted here and there compared to my previous game lol.

Sorry, I meant Italiano, not Walter. In post 82 you ask Italiano about his read on yourself and Walter.
Regardless, your concern Re: the read of others on yourself is scummy.

[72offsuit]

@72offsuit:

regarding 105, why did you feel the need to ask this question? this post pinged me a bit because i feel like you're asking about trs/talking about them for, fmpov, isn't the right reason to do so?

also, you threw down your vote on jt with no explanation in the post itself; do you sr him for the reasons in 112, and do you still find him scummy after him clarifying what he meant?

There is no NEED. Its just something i WANT a general concensus of opinions on, as opposed to specifically this game related sort of a question.
I think I'm starting to come round to only posting my townreads from day2. I just feel like outing townreads on day 1 just gets them killed a lot of the time on night 1. I'm a bit over being night killed for being too town. I'm yet to advance past day 2.

[72offsuit]

@72offsuit:

regarding 105, why did you feel the need to ask this question? this post pinged me a bit because i feel like you're asking about trs/talking about them for, fmpov, isn't the right reason to do so?

also, you threw down your vote on jt with no explanation in the post itself; do you sr him for the reasons in 112, and do you still find him scummy after him clarifying what he meant?

Yes. He is my top scumread at the moment and I think he is a good player to wagon on.

1. His scummy post 82 which I;ve elaborated on in 112 and 150

2. I agree with GL's post 62 TTJT's vote feels really opportunistic jumping on an early conflict - grounds that are ripe for an easy mislynch

3. I'm OK with the others on the wagon, I don;t scumread GL or Ydrasse at this stage

[72offsuit]

@TTJT. I don;t get your insistence on your questions. It's only been like a day.
You yourself admit them to be like half for the purposes of fun.
They are just feeling really red-herring-ish and filler/fluffy (yes, I know I asked questions myself, but my point still stands)

[72offsuit]

Err, please don't self vote, regardless of your alignment.
You are doing just fine. What has caused you to come to the conclusion that you "understand nothing in this game"?

Mafia is a game that involves deception on the part of mafia, so it can get heated and frustrating at times, but in the end its a game and its for fun. If you really aren't enjoying the game, then thats fine too, its not for everyone, or sometimes you just need a break.

You can always ask for the mod to replace you out of the game, but i would strongly encourage you to give this game a go. This playing roster seems like a nice group of people (my last game OTOH got a bit toxic).

[72offsuit]

Furthermore, I dislike your concern about how you are being read by others (walter), it gives me the impression of a mindset of scum-survivalism.

This is a bad point.

Townies should be concerned with how people view them too, I don't think being worried about why you are being scumread is scum-indicative. Also, I may be misunderstanding or missing something, but in that quoted post I think he's asking Italiano about his read on Walter, not worried about how Walter is reading him

??

See TTJT's response. He confirms he does ask Italiano for both their read on walter AND on TTJT (himself)

[72offsuit]

Im a bit torn regarding early outing of early town reads. Generally town read players just tend to get killed off and you get left with the scumbuckets. Though obviously taking a stance is important so others can get a read of yourself.

What are your thoughts re: the benefits of posting these early town reads vs the cons?

Honestly I've experimented with some different styles regarding sharing townreads and I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all best approach to this dilemma. I think sharing townreads is important because it is a way to tell others who you will NOT vote, it helps build thread consensus and shape the pool of players up for debate about who might be scum. It narrows the trajectories scum can take by reducing the amount of slots they can effectively push.

However, I do think it's valuable to not always explain how strong your townread is, or why you are townreading people in complete detail, because that info does help scum figure out their standing and who might be mislynchable later, and helps them make better NKs.

So it depends. I think I tend to gravitate towards oversharing as town because I think transparency and being correctly townread is extremely valuable and overall makes the game state harder for scum, even with the drawbacks. But there are times when it's correct to mask a little bit about why you townread certain players or how confident you are in it, that's partly why I kinda rebuffed Ydrasse's question.

Ok much appreciated for the response.
This pretty much id exactly what sort of a response i was after. Yeah, this probs doesnt belong within a game thread, but meh.

Think ill continue to keep my town and null reads jumbled up on day one.

Only point i dont get, is that narrowing trajectories part. As town, im more than happy for scum to push obv town, and in doing so make themselves look more Scummy.

[72offsuit]

I just read your previous game Italiano. I can see you were lynched day one as townie. I can reiterate what NK15 said in the post game there. Scumhunting isnt easy, not only for newbies, but also for more experienced players.

I see you scumread piisirrational in that game as well as NK15 who were both town, but dont be discouraged. Sometimes you can help town not necessarily by nailing scum by your own reads, but rather just being genuine and other players reading you as town, thus allowingbthem to identify scum through process of elimination (PoE)

I mean odds are, any given townie WILL be wrong in their reads. From town PoV, any particular scumread has just a 2/8 or 25 percent chance of actually being scum.

[72offsuit]

Just keep doing what you are doing, contributing, such as post 136, and first and foremost remember its just a game!
(which must be won at all costs!!!!!! - just kidding )

[72offsuit]

It's just trial and error. You can;t expect to be a pro in just 2 games.

1) Read the wiki regarding strategy and common scum tells

2) After a game reflect on what you thought were scum tells. If that player was in fact town, perhaps that scum tell isnt a thing?

If you read someone as town, who was in fact scum, then your reasoning for townreading them is not reliable

[72offsuit]

72's UVC:

ItalianoVD (3) - DoctorPepper, UNOwen, Ydrasse
TheThirteenthJT (1) - 72offsuit
UNOwen (2) - TheThirteenthJT, ItalianoVD
piisirrational (2) - WaltertheDunce10, GuiltyLion

Not Voting (1) - piisirrational

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in 6 days, 19 hours, 27 minutes.

Please correct me if I'm wrong

[72offsuit]

You and I both don't know this. Maybe scum you wouldn't think that, but you don't know what scum me would think and neither do I.

Well you asked me why scum-you would put a target on their back, I'm answering that scum-you wouldn't think they were putting a target on their back. You can say that's not how scum-you would act but it doesn't really help me because you could be lying.

Do you still think that TTJT is my scum partner? Because I think maybe pii is yours.

No, I no longer think it is likely that you and JT are scum together. I am struggling with his approach to the game but I doubt you would have twice called him out for voting with you if you were partners. The point you make about pi in your next post is a solid observation and not something I had picked up on, I was surprised to see that pi posted a read list as early as page 4 in that game. It would be good to hear his explanation for why he is now playing so passively.

I appreciate that they are now answered, but why did you initially skip over my questions in post 136?

Also:

I have a question for my voters: DoctorPepper and UNOwen

Even though I am a noob to this version of the game and on this forum, it’s pretty normal and common in scumming/wolfing 101 to not bring any undue and unnecessary attention to yourself. It pretty much puts a target on your back. I don’t know the meta of this site yet, but that seems like something that will never change.

So my question is if I was scum what would be the benefit to me and/or my partner (whether they were a noob or experienced) to put such a blatant target on my back and possibly their back for attempting to “protect” me. If there is a benefit I don’t know about, that’s why I’m asking.

What did you have in mind when you talked about a partner protecting you?

I really hate these early association analyses, of the form "player A is unlikely to be with player B"
From what I;ve seen to date, they tend to come from scum.
The pre-flip association analysis this early is giving me the vibe of awkward-scum faking contribution. Rarely does this speculation prove fruitful.

I'm also disliking the "scum-you" would do X,Y and Z. Everyone plays scum differently. It seems really disingenuous to be making such sweeping generalisations of IVD.

[72offsuit]

ah and I forgot to reply to the other part

keeping in mind that these were early game townreads and there's more to work off of now:

Ydrasse - I'm in the process of rethinking how strongly I originally townread this slot, but I thought the way she followed up on my pressure on UNOwen in 35 and 38 felt agendaless -> instead of trying to escalate conflict or push players, it felt like she was approaching things with a perspective to understand.

DoctorPepper - took strong initiative in pressure people early and I thought the pressure hit town notes of "something potentially suspicious" without going too far into exaggeration/embellishment. Also thought the emotion about being discredited in 50 was genuine

UNOwen - I already answered this one, but he didn't feel defensive in his replies to me on page 2 and I thought the reasoning for voting Italiano was earnest, even if it wasn't presented at first.

anyway that was my reasoning at the time, but I'm in the process of re-evaluating, so stay tuned

Your townread of Uno is extremely lame and feels disingenuous. Im paraphrasing here, but It seems to me to boil down to:

"His response did not particularly feel scummy" - this is a garbage reason to town read someone. This is a NAI thing, AT BEST.

"Reasoning for voting IVD was earnest", is also pretty lame.

[72offsuit]

Welcome Sera Masumi

[72offsuit]

@GuiltyLion

: could you expand on your scum read of Italiano?

I mostly really didn't like how he formed his scumreads around those voting him in 72, and I thought his defense of "what would be the benefit of putting a target on my back" was scummy because it's clear he didn't think it would put a target on his back regardless of his alignment, otherwise he wouldn't do it, as you also pointed out in 201.

I also got the vibe that he was buddying me in 81

1. Why don;t you really like that the scumreads are around those voting him? I find this is a common newbie thing to do, so I;m not really seeing why this is pinging you as being particularly scummy, given in your own words, he has a 75% of being town, from a townie point of view. I would say !scumnewbies are more likely to lie low, not OMGUS those voting them.

2. Yeah nah, disagree. Buddying is rarely that blatant IMO.

[72offsuit]

so I've just quickly skimmed/reread through the game

my opening tack here was trying to sort a few newbies, mainly TTJT and Italiano, cause I didn't hit an early townread from either and I tend to find newbie scum are easy to catch with a little pushing and prodding. However, as they posted more their thought processes became more clear to me and I don't especially think either is scum, which left me feeling a little aimless and wanting to reset a bit and reread.

Overall, I still townread Ydrasse, UNOwen, DoctorPepper as well - it's definitely possible that one is competent scum fooling me, but even when I went back to see if I could find avenues to where they're potentially playing to a scum agenda, nothing stood out to me.

I townread Walter as well. I think he's engaging in the game in a loose and carefree way which is difficult for scum, especially newbie scum, to emulate effectively. And I think the suspicion on 72 is genuine because there was not a ton of explicit support there and 72 strikes me as a slot that would be intimidating to push for a mislynch if you know he's town and you're not experienced/adept as scum.

which leaves piisirrational and 72offsuit. I scumread both of these slots and would currently be fine with a lynch on either.

Let's start with pi - I think Italiano makes a good point about pi's lack of activity, and I think the posts pi

did

leave us with are very inoffensive and meant to blend in. His take on Italiano in 65 is pure hedge, he doesn't scumread or townread Italiano on it (giving flexibility to take a read in either direction as the situation develops), he sheeps the reasoning Ydrasse already gave, and it's ultimately a post that neither develops any reads on any of the players involved, and also will not cause conflict with anybody in the situation.

It's made worse by the fact that he shades DoctorPepper in 138 only

after

being prompted -> if these thoughts were there at the time of 65, he chose not to post them, so to me it seems likely that pi only came up with this reasoning because they had to after the fact.

139 has much of the same problems as 65. Simply telling people stuff is NAI and not making any effort to instead highlight things that

are

AI, or generate content. It's classic newbie scum posting.

VOTE: piisirrational slot

As for 72, I imagine this is a harder sell as he strikes me as a competent player and I can definitely empathize with why some of you townread him. With him, it's more of a process of elimination from my townreads and an

absence

of towniness than any clear scum-motive to his posting. 72 is making an effort to ask questions and give thoughts and participate in conversation, but none of them ever gave me good feels in the way that most of the other players posts have. I recognize that's a vague and holistic assessment, I'm not sure how to explain it convincingly, but I want it noted down for future reference. I can also call out a couple of minor things which aren't especially scummy on their own, but together serve as circumstantial evidence that makes me feel validated in this PoE read:

- I only paid attention to this on reread, but he calls out Walter for the "greet the thread tell" (46) while seemingly missing that Ydrasse also greeted the thread (7). I think if he was genuinely scouting for this tell in RVS, he would have noticed that both players did it. Especially because when he voted Walter in post 12 he didn't mention the tell, he only brought it up later. That feels more likely to be scum adding justifications to their vote after the fact than town who noticed it to begin with. Props to Owen who called him out on this in 57, and I don't think 72 ever gave an explanation for it - which he did promise in 104. Let's hear that explanation now?

- I brought this up already, but I really didn't like the implication in 150 that TTJT was scummy for worrying about how he's perceived. Sure, it's survivalistic in nature, but both town or scum players generally want to survive and understand how they're being read by other players in the game. The idea of "scum"-survivalism specifically is doing a lot of legwork to mask the fact that 72 isn't actually explaining why TTJT asking for reads on himself is more likely to be scum behavior than town behavior.

- Given that I find piisirational decent odds of scum, I'm looking for people who haven't paid any attention to pi or put any pressure there. 72 has not once mentioned his play in this game at all. This alone is not scum-indicative - I myself also haven't mentioned pi up to this point! (but I'm doing it now!) - but if we see a red flip on that slot I'd be very wary of anyone who didn't engage with or mention him in any substantive way, and 72 fits that profile.

There's a few things to like and a few things I dislike here.

1. Re: GL's opening moves - seems a reasonable explanation Re: the flow of his posts throughout the game,
though 2 things are troubling me.

a) The quick change of heart off the TTJT wagon.
In moving off the TTJT wagon, 172 , GL simply says "That said, I appreciate your explanation here and I think the overall post feels genuine"
TTJT,'s response in 123 does not particuarly strike me as being convincingly of a town mindset.
TTJT says of Doctorpepper, that he is "an experienced player pushing a newbie [IVD] who has not been on RVS on this site before".
-- which is untrue as IVD has played a game previously and has been through RVS.

I disagree that a single early-game vote, as DP voted IVD, compares to TTJT being actually lynched for his newbie "no lynch" play.

What I;m trying to say is, I'm not really liking GL's rationale and the shift away here from pressuring TTJT.

b) I'm not really understanding what has brought on the self-reflection/self explanation. It's kinda reading as being a little overly self-conscious - it wasn;t really called for by anyone and points a little towards a guilty conscience.


2. The statement re: TRing of Ydrasse, UNOwen, DoctorPepper can go either way. It's very easy for !scumGL to just throw out a few cheap TRs here without real explanation
I'm OK with him NOT elaborating the strength of his reads, just making the point that its a very non-committal approach for !scumGL here, that leaves !scumGL with flexibility who to try to mislynch in the days ahead,
whilst also potentially trying to gain townie points for appearing to develop reads as well as the pocketing of said players.


3. The townread of walter here feels genuine and the description of watler as being "loose and carefree" seems appropriate.
Donl;t really agree with the 2nd point here. It's not like !scumWalter is solo and has to create a perfect storm for myself to be mislynched on his lonesome.


4. Voting a replacing out/AFK player feels like a waste of a vote, and basically suiting scum agenda its not like pi can reply.
Even in getting a reply from the replacement here, its very easy for !scumSera to read the thread and take the path thats best suits scumagenda, as they are not tied to their predecessors "reads"

Voting/FoSing a lurker in !townPi/now-Sera (easy mislynch target), as well as a "competent" player in myself (removal of a potential threat), would certainly suit !scumagenda.
Obviously that depends on pi/Sera's alignment. [not that I;m a particularly good player or anything, but I do ahave a couple of games under my belt]


5. The overall assessment of my slot feels genuine, although it is misguided for !townGL or shady for !scumGL.

a) I pretty much have caught scum as cop, primarily off the same sentiment as that proprosed here by GL, namely an absence of townie vibes from LL in Newbie 2001.
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=82865
Only 1 other player (fwog) scumreads LL.

What I'm trying to say, is that I can see !townGL's viewpoint here.


b) I'm OK to explain this now. My singling out of a single player despite several players greeting the whole thread, was intentional.
I've tried out the newbie greeting = scum theory and it was a crock of crap, where we vote for our tracker, lol.
See: Newbie 1994
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=82538
I picked walter as my RVS, as it was his first game, and thought I'd be more likely to get an alignment-indicative reaction
from him than a more expreienced player.
I also chose to push him on the "greeting-scum-tell" because it was his first game, whereas Ydrasse already had played a game.
I wanted to see others reactions to my overzealous and lame push on walter. No bites on the fishing rod.


c) We can agree to disagree here. Being concerned with reads on yourself IS a trait that scum tend to have.
I don;t see why I ahve to explain this point. Does anyone else disagree with me here?
Scum wants to know of other's reads on themselves to manipulate who they vote and lynch, and who they will elect to night kill.


In 175 , GL states: "Townies should be concerned with how people view them too, I don't think being worried about why you are being scumread is scum-indicative.

Well, TTJT in 82 , does NOT ask for an EXPLANATION WHY for a SCUMREAD, as GL stated, but simply asks "Where do I fall in your reads?"

So my point still stands, TTJT's 82 IS scummy. Saying my implication that TTJT is scummy, does not feel like a genuine point here from GL.



d) This last point is just garbage. There is like 0 to interact with pi over - as GL himself states.

[72offsuit]

AtE = Appeal to Emotion
Verbatim off the wiki
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... to_Emotion

An appeal to emotion is a particularly devious sort of fallacious argument, particularly in a game of unknowns such as Mafia. "If you lynch me, you'll lose!" is an easy example, but there are many others, played by both/all Factions in most games at some point. The nature of the game lends itself to appeals to fear or hope or trust.

This tactic is in general very effective against people who are not aware of it. As such, deploying it in a Mafia game with experienced players tends to backfire, as they'll be aware that you're trying to manipulate them, behaviour which is more typically seen coming from scum than from town.

[72offsuit]

Overall gamestate-wise, Pii lurking and being replaced and DP being on VLA has resulted in the same (relatively) few people posting.

Uno is still on IVD (the leading wagon), who Uno originally voted for in RVS, which is telling, I think, given Uno is also a leading wagon.

My preferred lynchpool is {TTJT , Uno}

As it stands, I wouldn't lose sleep over lynching pi/Sera if it comes to it.

[72offsuit]

i don't think that wagoning the slot is inherently a bad idea just because someone's gonna replace into it.

however, my poe still includes italiano as a potential solve; rereading his iso (b/c of their self-vote from yesterday), his only mention of pii before they started adding pii into their solve was 81 where they townread them. and then they come back to that slot in 188 with a scumread.

i think that what pinged me about this was that it came after italiano self-voting. while i think that frustration is within a vacuum nai, that he had pressure on him and then turned to a self-vote after feels very ate-y to me. the vibe i got was that it was a bit dramatic (that being "i've tried to no avail.") before it was being brushed off and he replaced his vote on his scumread and jumped back in. it feels as if the pii scumread of convenience because italiano doesn't interact with the content of the few posts themselves.

supporting the idea that italiano could theoretically do this as scum is 204, in which he says he's been in wolf games before this and has done bold moves which to me reads as a dissonance between something i pointed out in 79 and 91, where he asserts that he is a new player to this sort of stuff. i think that while there is not a 1:1 between all versions of mafia and italiano is new to this format, i feel in particular 91 feels a bit wifomy having 204 to read now.

that being said, i could see pii as scum despite this, though without more to judge i don't think i'm sold entirely on the idea. it's possible that italiano was frustrated, if they are scum with pii, that their partner has been inactive thus far and finds it easier to bus them at this point.

pii's posts were nondescript to me and i don't feel that i can say much more on the slot until someone replaces into it and becomes active.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

Why would IVD bussing pii be easier at this time?
I would say newbiescum with an AFKing partner would eagerly await their new incoming teammate

[72offsuit]

72offsuit, there's a bunch of stuff I want to work with in your posts but this is a quick pop in during lunch break so I don't have time to do it justice yet, I'll be back with more #content over the next few hours.

GL and Walter voting on an inactive slot does not bode well with me considering that there are so many active slots in the game

I don't vote people based on whether they're active or inactive, I vote them based on how likely I think they are to be scum. Why is Walter a good vote?

also DoctorPepper in addendum to this, I'd like an update on your read on 72offsuit. You were scumreading him earlier, I gave some reasons as to why I think he might be scum, I find it strange that now you pivot to Walter and toss some suspicion at me instead of potentially working with me on 72offsuit.

What's the point in these bite-size posts and the overly-explaininy, "this is just a quick pop in"? Just address my post in full.

[72offsuit]

We've got like 5 days to deadline

[72offsuit]

Your townread of Uno is extremely lame and feels disingenuous. Im paraphrasing here, but It seems to me to boil down to:

"His response did not particularly feel scummy" - this is a garbage reason to town read someone. This is a NAI thing, AT BEST.

"Reasoning for voting IVD was earnest", is also pretty lame.

I'll start with this though

that post was explaining my Uno townread

at the time that I gave it

. There's been a bunch more in Unowen's posts since that I've also found town-indicative, but I admittedly didn't go through a ton of effort to explain it at the time or afterwards, because I knew I wanted to do another review of the entire game so far and because I still don't think it actually helps town all that much to wax poetic at length about why you think people are town. I generally think it's far more useful to dig into reasons for scumreads than townreads, because scumreads are the ones that scum can't fake. It's way easier to fake a townread on a town slot, and frankly

if I were scum and I was townreading a town!UNOwen I can promise you I'd be able to write a pretty convincing sounding case if I needed to.

Why do you say it's "disingenuous"? and more importantly, do you scumread UNOwen? Or are you just trying to push back on my intentions?

as long as you don't think Owen and I are literally scum together, then either:
-I'm scum and UNOwen is town and we can at least both agree UNOwen is town and off the table for a lynch today (which I think is useful)
-I'm town and UNOwen is town, in which case arguing about my reasons for townreading UNOwen just muddies the waters around both of our slots for no gain to town
-I'm town and UNOwen is scum, in which case I would say the more important thing for you to be doing here is

casing

UNOwen and making an effort to convince me I'm wrong, rather than saying my townread is "lame".

So if you want to suss me out as for why I have that read, feel free, but if you are townreading UNOwen yourself then I'd like to keep that mutual townread established and centered as I think that's important, and if you don't actually think UNOwen is town then I would expect more from you in terms of casing and pushing him, instead of picking a fight with me.

1. Self-meta'ing, see bolded above. This is bad.

2. Yes, I scumread UNO and I;ve said as much. Why are you asking this? It just sounds like you are trying to shade me here.

3. I said it feels disingenuous because thats how I felt reading the post.

4. OK, the second bolded part is an excellent point and actually feels town +++.
It requires you to elaborate on your TR of him though.
The problem is I feel this is the sort of thing thats better to do post a flip (i.e on day 2). Not trying to put words in your mouth, but what it sounds like to me is that you are intentionally or perhaps not (along with your de-railing of the thread direction, whether it be in !townGLgood-faith or with !GLscum ill-will, with your pii+72 likely scum post), but it still being the end-product: proprosing a day 1 solve, which is nigh impossible.

[72offsuit]

What's the point in these bite-size posts and the overly-explaininy, "this is just a quick pop in"? Just address my post in full.

how is it "over-explainy", what? all I was saying is that I've read your 234 and I know I want to respond to it, but I don't have time yet.

You are self-justifying, which again, noone asked for, which is scummy.

[72offsuit]

and 256 has a pretty clear and intentional point to it

I never said it was unclear or had no intention. It just feels like a classic scum move to just spin BS as you go by picking random points in a post, rather than deal with the whole post of mine, in its entirely, in context.

[72offsuit]

72, you seemed quick to respond to guiltylion, while the sudden posting is surprising, i find it sort suspect that you question lion when he was asking for someone else read on you
How is the fact there are 5 days relevant except the fact that a lot can change in that time

I'm online now and checked the thread. Why is the "sudden posting surprising"?

Why is it suspect of me to question lion, after he has derailed the trajectory of the thread?

I posted the 5-day-deadline with regards to me just saying that there is no rush to have to break up the points in my post, rather than posting in entirety.

[72offsuit]

Both you and lion seemed sudden for posting

K why do you think lion is derailing the thread for then if scum?

Like I said in my post. I can see it from both perspectives. !townGL reading others as town and being paranoid of me, or !scumGL pushing on threats to !scumagenda. The problem is I;m not really seeing his townread on Uno nor yourself.

@Walter - trying to be a fly on the wall, would you say you would appear as townie to other town players or scummy to other town players?

[72offsuit]

i really like 45 and 48 from 72offsuit, particularly 45? doctorpepper from what i see didn't answer it but i think it might be good to hear doctorpepper explain what they think 72offsuit gains from pushing on them. i presume it would be to discredit doctorpepper, but given that in 39 doctorpepper said they were already finding 72 scummy i'd like to hear the why behind it all.

Hey everyone. I'm coming in witH the two following questions that I would like all to answer please. Mostly for fun since it's so early in the game.

1) Random guess or analysis of what we have so far, take a crack at the scumteam. Who is the mafia team in this game?
2) If you were mafia in this game, who would you like to be your partner, or who would most likely be your partner.

i think that so far, doctorpepper's pinged me because they seemed to jump on the defensive when it came to 72 (@doctorpepper, i'd still like to hear why you thought 72 was scummy), and then you as well. your second question in particular set me off a bit too when i read it earlier, because i don't really get why you think it's a good one despite your explanation? also, i guess that asking number one is a baseline sort of thing that i could see as a scum player asking in an effort to seem helpful/game-solvey. it doesn't seem to have too much weight towards scumhunting behind it right now.

dwelling on the second question, i can only think that later down the line it might help to go back if someone flips and see who they said, but there could be a myriad of reasons why and i don't think that it's a rewarding enough question to think too hard upon.

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

(REGARDLESS. you for another god-hammer and fun game in 2009!)

other than that:

unowen: why did you put jt as your second scum option? (58)
pii: who do you think is scum, if you think italiano's post is nai? (65)
guiltylion: why do you have the trs that you do? (63)
walter: why did you put doctorpepper as your second scum option? (69)

okay, i think i should be caught up now w the thread and i'll be around a bit to talk!

Just noticed this. Ydrasse you questioned my questions motives and then used some of their answer to formulate follow up questions immediately after.

This goes for everyone, did you all take a look at my explanation for that question, especially if your opposed it. Be The players that did not answer it were Pii, DrPepper, and guilty lion, but I had quite a few others who stated their opposition of it.

I'm doing a reread by the way and going to be pointing out any thing I missed. I also want to out up my full readlist after this.

Your WIFOM questions are NAI, bordering on red-herring-fluff in my opinion.

[72offsuit]

This is a newbie, and with newbie games come the misconception of "scum want to push easy mislynches". The last newbie game I played, I won as scum not by pushing for mislynches but because I intentionally stayed under the radar. I hard defended the day 1 mislynch, knowing full well that it will flip town. The rest of the mislynches I joined but I never drove the wagon, I found flimsy reasons to do it. So Italiano, while I don't think it automatically means you're scummy, it's odd that you're painting it as such because I am pushing for your mislynch.

I’m not familiar with that meta, but I can’t just completely throw out that thought process because I know you didn’t say that, but my point is if that

I mean I agree, being reactionary and painting a target on your back isn't a good way to play scum.

That doesn't necessarily mean that you won't do it.

This is very true and you can’t rule out that possibility. But I promise you that in only my second game I am definitely not be bold enough to make a move like that.

In fact that's weird that you're scum reading people just because they're voting you.

Why? I don’t think it’s weird at all imo. If a player knows that they are townie then to me it’s logical for them to think that the people voting for them is suspicious, especially when the reasoning is somewhat weak. As a matter of fact I think scum would refrain from revenge voting and would be more inclined to either look elsewhere or try to befriend their voter(s). Again I’m not familiar with the site’s meta and how newbie games go, but I assume things are the same and that’s the information I go by.

If either of us were scum, why did we single you out as the mislynch of the day?

If your vote was random and if UNOwen’s vote was random then I wouldn’t have had a problem with it, but because your vote was specifically due to my RVS vote and shortly after UNOwen piggybacking off of that my suspicions went up. Hence the reason why I said you two seemed opportunistic two find a reason for mislynch.

I don't understand what you mean by thumbing your nose in that post Italiano.

And I'm not mirroring your actions. I have my own play and I'm following through on it. If you think it mirrors you it is coincidental. I have not town cleared you either so think I haven't been looking at your posts either. So far I see you as a player who has been out on a bad spot early and is of course paranoid to be lynched day one in both their games. Which is why I can see others saying you are being defensive.

Thank you, I want to clarify my thoughts on this.

Ydrasse while your right the first question isn't really scumhunting, don't we all want to say we solved the game day 1? Bragging rights! That's why I said it's mostly a fun question.

As to the second one, I'm experimenting with RQS and I think it is a valid questions to ask this early in the game. Like I said, I have reasons for it and want to see how well it serves me. And it's not so much relatied to looking back at it down the road. More of a now reason. And directly related to question number 1,

the fun part of question number two for scum would be looking back at engame and having been bold to actually put your partner down here would incredible for them. Bragging rights!

The bolded kind of sounds like a bold scum saying what they're going to do and then doing it, since no one could believe that the scum would be that bold to do it. And then your response sounds a little too gitty. But I just have a vivid imagination and I've been a wolf countless times when playing the wolf variation of this game and I've done bold moves like that before. Anyway, it's probably nothing and I'd rather deal with what's more likely than what's possible.

You know what, I will say I feel he is leaning town as I post this. I normally don't like town reading people because I feel it backfires on me a lot. I just see an excited player early.

What do you mean it backfires on you? How so?

Right now my guess on scum is definetly at minimum one very experience player. (SE or not). How often do newbie games feature two SE scum players?

Interesting. There are 3 SE's in the game (Guilty, Doctor, and 72). Not sure if anyone else has equal or more experience. You've already mentioned you weren't really looking at DoctorPepper anymore, so what are your reads on Guilty and 72?

So far on my questions I don't see answers for
Guiltylion
DrPepper
Italiano
Piisirrational

Just let me know if you have no intentions of answering my questions so I can explain why I did it. Thank you

It seems like the answers would change the deeper into Day 1 we get right, but I don't mind answering it.
If I had to guess the scum team, I'd say UNOwen and piisirrational
If I had to choose a partner I'd have to say 72 or Hobbes (GuiltyLion)

Bolded Italianos statements on boldness. At first in response to a questions he says he is not bold enough to out a target on his back. Then in response to one of my posts he calls me out for potentially being bold scum with my question and claims it's so etching he would be bold enough to do or have done. A clear contradiction.

I'm not seeing the contradiction that you are painting here, nor am I seeing why you are focussing on this when there is so much more meaningful content in the thread.

[72offsuit]

@ Everyone:

1) What is your experience with playing mafia?
2) Do you prefer playing town or scum?
3) What do you think of the Policy lynch of Lynch All Lurkers?

Well I’ve played the wolf game variation on a boxing forum I’ve been a member of since probably 2006, but this would be my second actual mafiascum.net game.

I prefer being town/villager because I like trying to

find

the puzzle piece instead of having it.

Note completely sure of the policy per se, but I’m always of the opinion that if you seem disinterested and don’t contribute you shouldn’t have signed up to play and hence I have no problem lynching.

This bolding from italiano seems deliberate.
I am probably reading too much into it.

I wish catching mafia was this easy.
Hey look, he used bold font type - SCUM!

[72offsuit]

@ TTJT - Maybe repetitive, but can you rehash, succinctly as possible, your main scumreads as of right now.

[72offsuit]

@ Micc - is there a deadline for Sera replacing in?

[72offsuit]

Both you and lion seemed sudden for posting

K why do you think lion is derailing the thread for then if scum?

Like I said in my post. I can see it from both perspectives. !townGL reading others as town and being paranoid of me, or !scumGL pushing on threats to !scumagenda. The problem is I;m not really seeing his townread on Uno nor yourself.

@Walter - trying to be a fly on the wall, would you say you would appear as townie to other town players or scummy to other town players?

From the 2 games iv played, and the one i was town specifically, i was read as scum the entire day and lynched as a town tracker.
I could post a link to it if you would like that?

Im talking about this current game.

[72offsuit]

You guys are ignoring what I'm saying and posting what's convinient. I said I'm rereading for things I've missed. So it should come hand in hand with points I have not made yet. I am taking my time to reread because last game I did scum read one player and basically held my scum read throughout the game and eventually was wrong about them. This game I'm trying to keep an open mind and be more flexible.

To answer Italiano my last game Newbie 2009, I did have a hard time removing a player from my scumread. This probably came from lack of playing. I used to feel more leniant moving people in my scumreads.

Uno you've conviniently ignored everything I've said. I've been waiting for someone else to join my wagon and would like 72 to weigh in on this. In my reread I noticed something interesting in his posts and I want to see if I'm right.

I've answered your question he was mostly a gut read earlier and a bit of POE and potential partners and who I have less scum opinions on. Gut is a justification at times when it's early game. And regardless this was in relation to Drpeppers partner and not as individual scum suspect. My townlean changed because of how I interpreted his posts.and how I was moving away from DrPepper scum. And again you ignored me rereading. During regular play I was focused on answering questions while trying to see other points made by players. I can't catch everything. I am also not solo and have a team I should be listening too. I've noticed I'm lost in some people's reads so clearly I've missed things which is again why I'm going back through everything slower

I'd actually like to weight OUT at this point.

[72offsuit]

@Walter - trying to be a fly on the wall, would you say you would appear as townie to other town players or scummy to other town players?

Is this a question that helps the town? I'm trying to get a better understanding of the questions I should be asking, but this one seems kind of pointless?

I'm still learning what questions are useful too. Just try to generate discussion that is player-specific. Trial and error.
My intention is to see if his SRs and TRs align with what !townWalter would be thinking about the SRs and TRs of others on him.

[72offsuit]

UNVOTE: Italiano
VOTE: ThirteenthJT
Italiano has gotten more townie, JT hasn't. In particular I like that Italiano has brought up JT's "guess" that there is a scum within the experienced players, despite not holding active suspicions of any of them. That's something that I had noticed, so it's reassuring that Italiano is looking at those posts in a similar way. It is the same sort of backwards approach from JT that led to him deciding that one of DoctorPepper/myself must be scum.

I agree with 72's point about survivalism and I don't buy JT's claim in 198 that he has a genuine fear of getting quicklynched at this stage of the game. 206 seems overly defensive considering his suspicion of me has been passively held since he entered the game.

Going back further, Walter appeared on JT's initial scum list without justification in 67. I think this is convenient since Walter was the only other player with a serious vote against him at that point. Later this became a town lean in 137. Walter had 3 posts during this period (none of which look telling to me) and I think more significantly 72 dropped the vote against him. And now DoctorPepper has voted Walter it looks like Walter is back on JT's scum list.

Finally 268, 278 and 284 are a strange sequence. If you think the point is worth making why did you immediately back down? And if you think it is probably nothing why bring it up at all?

As someone who was scumreading TTJT earlier on in the game, why are you just agreeing with me regarding my post about TTJT being scum-survivalist now? I posted this back in 234 .

I feel like !townUno mindset here would have been to focus on posts pertaining to their scumread (TTJT). The section on TTJT in 234 went by with no comment til now.

[72offsuit]

Ye, what little there is of pii does read pretty badly.

[72offsuit]

Just spouting random thoughts: I still find it really interesting how vastly different each game is depending on the players. I've had totally different dynamics in most of my games.

[72offsuit]

Who is this DoctorPepper? Sure would be nice to meet them.

[72offsuit]

That opinion is independant from my reads. I just feel there are too many strong players this game based on the little metareads I've done. This makes me believe it will not be an easy game to play. I feel that if any one of our SEs is scum we are going to be blindsided hard. At the same time I'm having a hard time pinpointing scum reads in them which is why I can not say which one if any of them are scum. 72 is the one from the three that has set me off the most however.

The vibes I'm getting is at least one person is playing a strong town game to throw us off. At the same time it could just be my paranoia because I'm getting clear town scumhunting vibes from a few players and that is abnormal for me making me skeptical. I feel like I'm being played.

Here is my readlist

Guilty Lion
Drpepper
Sera

I will call these three the null.

Italiano
Ydrasse
72

I've seen strong town points/reasons but at times felt something off and having a hard time pinpointing.

Walterthedunce
Unowen

My two strongest scumreads after my reread completion. Walter did shoot up my rankings.

I too will begin elaborating on my reads. I also have some interesting pairings if you are all in for a little speculation posting.

This reads list is jus lol..... How can anyone genuinely have pi/Sera in top 3 townies.

[72offsuit]

5 days since a post from the pii/sera slot. Why do people bother joining?

[72offsuit]

Hello all

Hi Mini, thanks for replacing in.

When you get a chance please upload an avatar for yourself to make your poats easier to identify.

[72offsuit]

Okay i've done that

Thanks

[72offsuit]

@Mini:

1) What is your experience with playing mafia?
2) Do you prefer playing town or scum?
3) What do you think of the Policy lynch of Lynch All Lurkers?

[72offsuit]

@Mini are you Aussie?

[72offsuit]

I would've recommended starting a game afresh as your first game. Replacing in is tricky.

[72offsuit]

OK sure, who is scum?

[72offsuit]

Anyone care to explain TTJT as scum? I'm kinda town reading their posts because the UNOwen analysis makes sense to me

I have no idea what 'analysis' you are referring to. Please use quotes, or at the very least a post number.

[72offsuit]

Anyone care to explain TTJT as scum? I'm kinda town reading their posts because the UNOwen analysis makes sense to me

Not a fan of this post.

Agreed.

[72offsuit]

Unvote

[72offsuit]

also DoctorPepper in addendum to this, I'd like an update on your read on 72offsuit. You were scumreading him earlier, I gave some reasons as to why I think he might be scum, I find it strange that now you pivot to Walter and toss some suspicion at me instead of potentially working with me on 72offsuit.

Interesting point! I’d like to hear what he has to say as well. What are your thoughts on it 72?

Anyone care to explain TTJT as scum? I'm kinda town reading their posts because the UNOwen analysis makes sense to me

Not a fan of this post.

Agreed.

Can you both elaborate why? What stood out to you about that post?

Doctor Pepper is inviting people to convince him to scumread JT, even though the reasons for that suspicion have been well discussed and he can surely make up his own mind. He "kinda" townreads JT, which is a noncommittal read if I've ever seen one. So weak resistance to JT wagon, but one that leaves plenty of room to back down. Then he says the analysis against me "makes sense". It's not clear what he means and it's not paired with a vote, so again vague and noncommittal but this time in support of the wagon against me.

It also bothers me what's not in the post: despite suggesting support for the case against me, his vote is still sitting on Walter. There is no effort to push forward the Walter vote, or pressure Walter or really advance anything.

And finally, Doctor Pepper is the most experienced player in the game (at least by join date, I don't know how much he has played compared to the other SEs). The only player who has seemed less engaged was pi, who had a grand total of 4 posts.

Pretty much this feels spot on.

[72offsuit]

The vibe im getting reading DP from a scum perspective:

Abysmal return from VLA. Rather than an eager reread of missed content and a catchup, instead offers crap all.

There isnt much impetus for a Walter lynch. DP knows this. Doesnt really push his lynch nor any other lynch hard.
Scum agenda here would be to Maintain status quo if town are the leading lynches.

If DP is town and thinks TTJT is likely town, would press more for lynching another target, not ask to be convinced on TTJT.
Still leaves the option to vote for TTFT ajar, as deadline approaches.

The 352 'analysis' post just smacks of lazy scum, not even quoting ehat he is referring to, not even bothering to make a clear convincing case, despite a player he doesnt scumread being the leading wagon

[72offsuit]

Given Mini shading TTJT from the side lines and DP being indifferent to the TTJT lynch, id say Mini or DP today

[72offsuit]

Mini replace in scummy as. Lacklustre entry that only shows evidence of reading to posts up to page 3. Replies to my really simple posts. On replace in FoSes leading lynch wagon to maintain status quo - low hanging fruit.

[72offsuit]

Anyone care to explain TTJT as scum? I'm kinda town reading their posts because the UNOwen analysis makes sense to me

I mean it could just be me but to me when people fish for information like they are doing asking for peoples reads etc, i see that as maybe wanting to know where they are. As i said could just be me but that is why I saw them as a little scum

Agree this is very much a newbscum post

Very noncommittal, "As i said could just be me"

[72offsuit]

Cant see any posts of DP directed at Pi /Mini

[72offsuit]

VOTE: Mini

[72offsuit]

VOTE: DP

[72offsuit]

Just compared Micro 935 | Chain of Command (townDP)
viewtopic.php?p=11763091&user_select%5B ... #p11763091

with

Newbie 2000 (scumDP)
viewtopic.php?p=11759321&user_select%5B ... #p11759321

TownDP

posts a readslist day 1 with as far as I can tell is 5 days to deadline.
His posts are quite town-vibey overall, with most posts directly discussing player alignment

143 I actually think Drew is town, idk where this is coming from

151 Gutfeel. You seem to be having real activity. Doesn't seem like scum trying to be active

153 Never said it wasn't. I'm just saying my gut tells me that Drew is being active in a way that I find productive to town, instead of people being active but not contributing anything to the discussion

155 - To be honest, I haven't done a good job reading this game, I skimmed a lot (I hate meta too and a lot of the meta discussion here has been a big meh for me) I still have Euphonia as my top scum read tho that may be because I'm super annoyed by the posting style.
Liking OkaPoka and Kanna so far.

157 I think I am good with Oka so far as my read on QQ aligns. So that's why I'm inclined to agree with them for now
Though agreed, not much to go on this game. Why don't we get the others involved, I can't seem to get anything off Aldus or Iconeum

159 Mostly gut on Kanna. I particularly liked pushing me for my QQ read earlier.
You, hmm so far I didn't like you for disagreeing with my Euphony push, but I do get your point on PR hunting.
But I wasn't really as much hunting PRs as I was trying to understand what QQ was doing because I never get what they're doing.
You're actively trying to get reads today so you're looking good for now, care to convince me otherwise on Euphony?

161 Disagreeing implies that you're town who doesn't agree with me. That wasn't my thought at first. I thought you were making a bad push because I took something I didnt expect to be a joke as a serious post.
I thought it was kinda mis-reppy at first, hence my initial read. But you don't seem like you are fake scum.hunting or looking for reasons to paint people as scum

etc etc.

[72offsuit]

ScumDP:

Seems to ask a LOT more questions, many of them not very hard-hitting at all.
In this game:
19
22
25
39
47
88 etc etc
these posts all have questions and thats just his first handful of posts here in this game.

Read his previous Newbie game where he is scum and you can see he asks a lot more questions compared to his towngame.

[72offsuit]

Ok scratch the point about readslist, he psots a readslist day as scum too.

[72offsuit]

as town too*

[72offsuit]

Scum DP's post 79 in Newbie 2000

"Walk me through your 'Hand of Glass' read. This seems like it's a new player kind of thing and not a scum thing."

reads to me similar to post 352 in this game

[72offsuit]

72's UVC:

TheThirteenthJT (3) - UNOwen, GuiltyLion, MiniMegabyte
UNOwen (2) - TheThirteenthJT, ItalianoVD
MiniMegabyte (1) - WaltertheDunce10
ItalianoVD (1) - Ydrasse
WaltertheDunce10 (1) - DoctorPepper
DoctorPepper (1) - 72offsuit


TTJT at L-2

Please correct me if I'm wrong

[72offsuit]

Ok scratch the point about readslist, he psots a readslist day as scum too.

as town too*

EBWOP: He posts a reads-list regardless of alignment to scratch this point *

[72offsuit]

EBWOP: so*

omg
sdfkjysdlkgsdukfgsdjflgsdf
I type good.

[72offsuit]

@ Ydrasse: are you going to ISO anyone else?
Any particular reason for who you DID choose to ISO so far?

[72offsuit]

As irresponsible as this sounds, I'm not really super concerned with my lynch if town wants to make that mistake

I don't know, this last post here makes me feel uneasy about voting for DoctorPepper now. What is everyone else's thoughts about it? Scum

could

say it's a "mistake", but how likely?

Surely scum

would

say it's a mistake, unless they were throwing in the towel completely. Could you explain what you mean by "how likely"?

why does it make you uneasy that he’s saying he’s not a good vote @italiano?

I don’t know if DoctorPepper is playing mind games, but to me it seems like he might be trying to softclaim a special role.

And what I mean by how likely is: what is the scum meta? If I’m going by my theory, do scum soft claim when they are not in danger of being lynched? Seems they would only do it at L1. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but the words he’s used (wasted vote, mistake, irresponsible) has me thinking differently. And that’s why I was asking about the scum meta and if this is something that they do or could do.

Here’s my thinking:

Based on the ratio, which is 7:2, getting it wrong and lynching a townie on Day 1 is not that big of a mistake. I got lynched Day 1 my last game and the twin still won.

There can be a mislynch or two without it becoming completely unwinnable for town. I’d assume that townies would like to NOT get lynched sure, but not sure if they would say it’s a wasted vote or that it’s a mistake to vote for them or that’s it’s irresponsible, but that’s only my assumption.

I dont see anything that comes close to resembling a soft of any sort here in this game.

You are basically saying you will never lynch anyone that you think has posted anything even remotely looking like a PR soft.
So basically you are going to 100% of the time just lynch a vanilla town on day 1, and never lynch scum.

[72offsuit]

Spoiler:

Votecount 1.03

TheThirteenthJT (3) -

GuiltyLion, Ydrasse, 72offsuit

ItalianoVD (2) -

DoctorPepper, UNOwen

UNOwen (2) -

ItalianoVD, TheThirteenthJT

Ydrasse (1) -

WaltertheDunce10

Not Voting (1) -

piisirrational

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-06-28 20:00:00).

DoctorPepper is V/LA until 6/21.

Votecount 1.04

ItalianoVD (3) -

DoctorPepper, UNOwen, GuiltyLion

TheThirteenthJT (2) -

Ydrasse, 72offsuit

UNOwen (2) -

TheThirteenthJT, ItalianoVD

72offsuit (1) -

WaltertheDunce10

Not Voting (1) -

piisirrational

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-06-28 20:00:00).

DoctorPepper is V/LA until 6/21.

Sera Masumi replaces piisirrational.

Votecount 1.05

ItalianoVD (3) -

DoctorPepper, UNOwen, Ydrasse

UNOwen (2) -

TheThirteenthJT, ItalianoVD

Sera Masumi (2) -

GuiltyLion, WaltertheDunce10

TheThirteenthJT (1) -

72offsuit

Not Voting (1) -

Sera Masumi

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-06-28 20:00:00).

DoctorPepper is V/LA until 6/22.

Votecount 1.06

ItalianoVD (2) -

UNOwen, Ydrasse

UNOwen (2) -

TheThirteenthJT, ItalianoVD

Sera Masumi (2) -

GuiltyLion, WaltertheDunce10

TheThirteenthJT (1) -

72offsuit

WaltertheDunce10 (1) -

DoctorPepper

Not Voting (1) -

Sera Masumi

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-06-28 20:00:00).

DoctorPepper is V/LA until 6/22.

Votecount 1.07

UNOwen (2) -

TheThirteenthJT, ItalianoVD

Sera Masumi (2) -

GuiltyLion, WaltertheDunce10

TheThirteenthJT (2) -

72offsuit, UNOwen

ItalianoVD (1) -

Ydrasse

WaltertheDunce10 (1) -

DoctorPepper

Not Voting (1) -

Sera Masumi

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-06-28 20:00:00).

Prodding Sera Masumi.

Votecount 1.08

UNOwen (2) -

TheThirteenthJT, ItalianoVD

Sera Masumi (2) -

GuiltyLion, WaltertheDunce10

TheThirteenthJT (2) -

72offsuit, UNOwen

ItalianoVD (1) -

Ydrasse

WaltertheDunce10 (1) -

DoctorPepper

Not Voting (1) -

Sera Masumi

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-06-28 20:00:00).

Prodding DoctorPepper.

Votecount 1.08

TheThirteenthJT (3) -

72offsuit, UNOwen, GuiltyLion

UNOwen (2) -

TheThirteenthJT, ItalianoVD

MiniMegabyte (1) -

WaltertheDunce10

ItalianoVD (1) -

Ydrasse

WaltertheDunce10 (1) -

DoctorPepper

Not Voting (1) -

MiniMegabyte

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-06-28 20:00:00).

TheThirteenthJT is V/LA until 6/27.

Votecount 1.09

TheThirteenthJT (3) -

UNOwen, GuiltyLion, MiniMegabyte

UNOwen (2) -

TheThirteenthJT, ItalianoVD

MiniMegabyte (1) -

WaltertheDunce10

ItalianoVD (1) -

Ydrasse

WaltertheDunce10 (1) -

DoctorPepper

DoctorPepper (1) -

72offsuit

Not Voting (0) -

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-06-28 20:00:00).

TheThirteenthJT is V/LA until 6/27.

[72offsuit]

DP votes Walter in 242

[72offsuit]

UNO switches votes from IVD to TTJT in 297

[72offsuit]

TTJT switches votes from UNO to Walter in 416

[72offsuit]

I'm wondering why !scum TTJT wouldnt vote for mini

[72offsuit]

If its !scumDP and !scumTTJT

[72offsuit]

Why would they both vote for Walter, when its unlikely walter will be lynched?

[72offsuit]

I'd probably bet the game on Italiano, 72offsuit, and UNOwen being town

Ydrasse and Walter are town most of the time, but I'd be thinking if I'm getting snowed by scum, they're more likely than the first three.

MiniMegabyte is a tossup, but I stand by their doubling down on not having any scumreads outside of TTJT as being loosely town-indicative.

Which leaves TTJT/DoctorPepper which I think is the team. We have TTJT at 3 votes and DocPepper at 2, I don't see a point of switching right at this moment, but happy to go with DocPep if UNOWen/Walter prefer to go there.

This doesnt make any sense to me ^

[72offsuit]

Hmmm

[72offsuit]

Anyone care to explain TTJT as scum? I'm kinda town reading their posts because the UNOwen analysis makes sense to me

yeh I guess this is also unlikely from scum!DocPep with scum!TTJT

VOTE: Doctor Pepper

Yes. If DP is scum then TTJT is town.

[72offsuit]

Off that post alone

[72offsuit]

No scum player invites town to present a case against their scum partner.

[72offsuit]

Its the sort of line !scumDP points to after !town TTJT is lynched

"Hey, i told u he wasnt scummy, those on his wagon are scum!"

[72offsuit]

VOTE: DP

Not a fan of 404 and it feels like its cherry picking.

Both town and scum games you mentioned have 1 huge difference from this game. I was active in both of those games.

I.e. my behavior today is not indicative of my actual meta because a lot of my posting here was prompted by getting prodded and not being able to read the game properly.

Plus, the scum DP game feels so cherry picked because the points of "asking more questions" was indicative of my interest in the game state, rather than my alignment

How is it cherry picking?

[72offsuit]

VOTE: DP

Not a fan of 404 and it feels like its cherry picking.

Both town and scum games you mentioned have 1 huge difference from this game. I was active in both of those games.

I.e. my behavior today is not indicative of my actual meta because a lot of my posting here was prompted by getting prodded and not being able to read the game properly.

Plus, the scum DP game feels so cherry picked because the points of "asking more questions" was indicative of my interest in the game state, rather than my alignment

How is it cherry picking?

[72offsuit]

Your scumhunting is next to nonexistent. If you are town you only have yourself to blame.

[72offsuit]

I'm currently re reading the game but I have this huge inkling *shocker* that my wagon is scum motivated. And a lot of flimsy reasons are being thrown around.

I really dislike post 446. For one, that's a complete misrep of my meta statement of lying low and defending the wagon. I dislike meta but to prove my point, in Newbie 2000 (also modded by Micc, you sly dog) I actively DEFENDED the biggest wagon and made sure to stay away from it. As in my posting was really there to drive home the point that I believed their claims and I made it so adamant that it was a mistake lynching them.

Here? I legitimately asked a question. A question of why this player is scum because if you haven't noticed, I haven't been reading the game and I wanted to know why TTJT was the wagon.

You think your wagon is scummotivated and yet you are voting walter?
Ok then.

[72offsuit]

It’s a lot more I want to get to, but as of right now, I don’t like the DoctorPepper wagon and I feel DoctorPepper is telling the truth about someone. Like I said I’ll go more in depth later.

There isnt much time left in the day.
If you propose lynching someone other than DP then u need to be fast.

[72offsuit]

GL 72 Ydrasse and aaltee. How much are you willing to bet DP is scum? Like how sure are you from a 1-10. I won't be intenting to hammer until DP makes it clear he has caught up. Or we are under 24 hours.

You are considering hammering DP?
Are you scumreading him right now?

[72offsuit]

I'd like to hear the why behind DP's thought processes rather than just seeing little pop-ups of "this is weird."

TBH I was generally disinterested so this game is a crap shoot. Town DP though is more unsure and less prone to tunneling because I really dislike playing as town.

Thought process in general is "is the post in question made with an intention to hunt scum or to seem active"

The things I look for in scum are if the posts just there to blend in the background or if the post has malicious intentions (i.em I hate misrepping and I dislike discrediting). I believe townies are more than likely to make bad pushes, but sometimes bad pushes are in good faith.

For my own posting? Admittedly this game I wanted people to summarize it for me because I was lazy and not motivated. Do I see that as a reason to scum read me? No. But I can see how it can easily be used to feign scum reads on me

You say your disinterested in this game and yet insist that lynching you is a mistake. Yeah sure.

[72offsuit]

you're*

[72offsuit]

And then advocate for lynching myself or GL who have actually been playing the game.

[72offsuit]

And your defensce is AtE and self meta-ing.

[72offsuit]

Setting down ultimatums. Nice.

[72offsuit]

Very pro-town.

[72offsuit]

And then advocate for lynching myself or GL who have actually been playing the game.

I'm sorry, but since when has "playing the game" automatically equate to town?

I didn;t say it equates to town.

You wanting to lynch active SE's on day one is scummy.

[72offsuit]

Anyway, 72 sounds like he's desperate to get me lynched that he'll just resort to discrediting me.

So town, you'll have 2 options. Me or 72. I hope you don't disappoint

Why would !scumMe be desperate to lynch you? I could have put TTJT at L-1 without anyone batting an eyelid?
How am i furthering !scumMe's agenda by switching to you?

[72offsuit]

You didnt even for one second consider GL nor myself being town here

[72offsuit]

ACTIVE SE. Don;t take my post out of context.

[72offsuit]

Scum you agenda is that the TTJT lynch was losing steam and you went for me. I was LHF, the inactive player that had no reads. I was easy to make a case on because I said "hey guys, why is TTJT scum?"

So when I show up and actually gave a crap about the game and convinced 1 person I was town, another not to vote for me until 24 hours (probably to avoid no lynch) and another to get off my wagon, you're out here justifying that

How was the TTJT wagon losing steam? Please tell me

[72offsuit]

You havent answered my question

How was the TTJT wagon losing steam?

[72offsuit]

I'm not sure you;re scum, but your zero cooperation and scummy as return from VLA makes me think you are.
This game reads nothing like your previous town game and much more like your previous scum game.
You don;t even consider for a moment that GL and I are town and simply say, hurr durr, scum is on my wagon,

[72offsuit]

Scum you agenda is that the TTJT lynch was losing steam and you went for me. I was LHF, the inactive player that had no reads. I was easy to make a case on because I said "hey guys, why is TTJT scum?"

So when I show up and actually gave a crap about the game and convinced 1 person I was town, another not to vote for me until 24 hours (probably to avoid no lynch) and another to get off my wagon, you're out here justifying that

...

I was literally at L-1. The attention shifted to me. That's how that wagon lost steam .

You are contradicting yourself here.
In 510 you say I'm scum because I\'m voting you because I couldn't get TTJT lynched

The wagon lost steam because I unvoted off him, the leading wagon, onto you.

[72offsuit]

Mate stop the swearing.

[72offsuit]

I really feel like lynching either DrPepper or 72 is high risk high reward. Are we sure we want to be on this Day 1. Shouldn't we let them continue until Day 2.

I feel in general consensus Mini would be our floor lynch today.

I'd prefer Walter or Uno but mini is my third option at this point solely based on contributions. At this point I'm willing to settle here. I don't feel like gambling day 1.

As for where my opinions lie I feel like 72 pressured me in a similar way and I've been disappointed in then avoiding some of my questions. I feel invisible at times. At the same time I see him as very tunnelly in his approaches.

Dr pepper has been a lot stronger in his case of 72. And I'm tending to lean towards agreeing with him here, but I really don't want to chance it. Drpepper, as a fellow scum preferance player, do you ever as town employ scum tactics to save yourself? Is this sudden burst of energy because you are against the wall or because you just have more time right now?

Finally I say we don't forget about Guiltylion here who I am curious to see what their opinions on what went on are.

Looking forward to your explanation of readlist Walter.

What questions have been avoided? Post specific posts here please.

[72offsuit]

So this is my updated reads list and my thoughts up to this point.

TOWN
DoctorPepper - moved up from semi town because of his recent posting, especially 515. Town play looser because they have nothing to hide.
GuiltyLion - hasn’t really changed since the beginning. Has felt as much town as he did earlier.
Walter - moves up from semi town because of his overall posting and overall feel. I’ve liked his interactions with Owen, 72, and especially TTJT and his wagon hopping has me thinking town.

NULL
Ydrasse - Has fallen down a couple of notches for me. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, however, as she is leaning more towards town null than scum null. Don’t know what it is, but I’m just not as sure as I was earlier.
Mini - Hasn’t posted much and don’t really have a read. A couple of others have townread her. I don’t know, maybe.

SCUM
72 - Dropped several spots. Because of the recent posting towards the town and towards DoctorPepper. Voted for DoctorPepper and then went on to convince the town to vote for him instead of letting it build organically. Seemed to be trying too hard to make it happen. Also all of his recent posting has a lot of frustration and annoyance that they didn’t previously have. Yes I know it’s a 180. One thing I will say is that just because you read someone a certain way doesn’t mean that read cannot change and that you shouldn’t be willing to pull the trigger, which brings me to my next read.
TTJT - Dropped a spot or two. Very, very unsure of himself and unwilling to pull the trigger or read anyone else except for the same reads he had at the beginning of the day. Well a lot has happened and changed since that time. I think the wagon hopping reasoning for Walter is weak because I see town doing that a lot, not here, but on my forum (sorry to keep referring back to it), but wagon hoppers were more often than not villagers. Scum or wolves don’t want that attention. I know you can’t rule it out, but in this case I’m going to. Also haven’t seen him change or reframe his theory of there being at least one SE on the scum team and yet two of them are on wagons and he’s not willing to vote for either of them.

SEMI SCUM
UNOwen - moves up a little actually. As the least scummy of the three is still here because I can’t shake his early supposed scumread of GuiltyLion without actually scumreading him and it continues to stand out for me. Even though he’s moved away from me I still think it’s possible he could be scum.

POSSIBLE PARTNER COMBINATIONS
TTJT/72
TTJT/Owen
72/Owen
72/Mini

Any questions feel free to ask and Ill clear it up best I can.

You scumread of me makes zero sense.

DP self admitted he hasnt been interested in this game.

What incentive do I have as scum to remove DP from the game. From !ScumMe PoV he is literally zero threat given his lack of contribution to scumhunting and barely been townread by anyone.

How did my scumread of him not devlop organically. The gamestate with DP being totally zero activity gave me the impression of scum just happy for the trajectory of the game to continue as is, which felt like !scumDP sitting back watching !townTTJT get lynched with zero implication.
I was deciding between switching between Mini and DP, read DP's previous games and settled on pushing DP.
His return from VLA was a joke, and his reponses to me are simiarly scummy and contradictory.

[72offsuit]

Suddenly TTJT's top scumreads are the top 2 wagons.
Yeah nah.

VOTE: TTJT

[72offsuit]

L-1

[72offsuit]

Sigh

[72offsuit]

I didn't think that through

[72offsuit]

Well lets hope he is scum lol

[72offsuit]

Lol. Nice so im scum either way. Fits nicely with your tunnel

[72offsuit]

I dont care what you accept or dpnt accept

[72offsuit]

Whats the point in claiming if he is hammered anyway

[72offsuit]

dp shut up stop being a jerk

[72offsuit]

Apologies to town if TTJT is town

[72offsuit]

Relax, so i made a mistake. No need to be a complete jerk about it.
Youve made this game which was enjoyable into an unpleasant game.

[72offsuit]

U apologise to the mod only dor swa
Earing and then u continue... Lol
Toxic

[72offsuit]

You voted for me so ypur reads were wrong anyway

[72offsuit]

I am so salty.

You're here so high and mighty about how my "terrible attempts at scumhunting" are my own fault as to why I'm being wagonned.

You. The paragon of scumhunting. The exemplar of COOPERATIVE TOWN.

I'm pissed because you're a hypocrite. At best, you're bad town who thinks too highly off himself. At worst, you're transparent scum

Non existent, not terrible.

[72offsuit]

no, we're lynching 72 tomorrow, he's the one who hammered

^ That quick turnaround.

[72offsuit]

Lol, these worried about self hammer posts r so forced.

[72offsuit]

Huh? I see a lot has happened. I was expecting 72 to be the one getting the votes. I was certain Walter was gonna vote for him since he had suspicions of him earlier. Voting for TTJT was kind of weird for me. And after 72’s move onto TTJT I have to assume JT is town because if 72 is scum it would be extremely dumb to bus your partner when you didn’t have to. Unless neither of them are scum. I don’t know what to think now. I wish it was as easy and JT flips scum, but if not I don’t see why we shouldn’t/wouldn’t vote for 72 on Day 2. That’s who I expected to go anyway. Ehh.

Why were you expecting mpre votes on me?

[72offsuit]

Suddenly TTJT's top scumreads are the top 2 wagons.
Yeah nah.

VOTE: TTJT

You can’t tell me that you weren’t aware of the vote count. That just doesn’t make sense to me.

I can say that and that's what happened.

[72offsuit]

Lol. Nice so im scum either way. Fits nicely with your tunnel

At best you’re bad townie, so either way it’s not a help to the town.

What point are you trying to make in this post?

[72offsuit]

if 72 is scum the mishammer was definitely to get out of the 1v1 with dp.

What incentive does !ScumMe have to get out of that 1v1?

[72offsuit]

I couldve ridden that 1v1 and just let the TtJT lynch go ahead

[72offsuit]

Thus my questik. For you DrPepper was if you ever use scummy tactics to avoid being lynched as town. If 72 is town him hammering me was an example of it.

It wasnt an intentional play.

[72offsuit]

also i feel that if 72 is scum too gl just became a lot more of a likely partner and they could have coordinated that vote on a townie!jt.

if jt is scum i don't know what motivation a scum 72 has to hammer his partner though or even switch wagons like that when he's under a lot of scrutiny because dp is going to still go after him the next day.

If JT isn't trolling then the partner is probably GuiltyLion.

IMO both these twilight shades were ugly

I would like both of you to explain why exactly you think scum!GL and scum!72 have any kind of need to coordinate a quickhammer there. I know it may not mean much coming from me, but I believe scum quickhammers on D1 are tremendously bad play unless you're absolutely sure you've got the PR (even then, it's a gamble that can easily sink you), and I really don't see how you think TTJT was such an urgent need to remove that our hypothetical team would need to trash my good standing as well as 72's in order to secure THAT specific D1 mislynch.

i feel that dp had a lot more to lose from thunderdoming it out with 72 in this situation and i think that 72's response of "oh we can work this out you might not be scum" feels scummier than dp's conviction that 72 is scum. i think that dp became townier the longer it went on. 568 in particular is a good representation of this thought process.

i don't know if a scum!72 would hammer like that and try to pretend it was fake/accidental though, because that seems dumb as hell to do.

I’m wondering when you felt this because you voted for DoctorPepper. Whether it was before or after you voted for him doesn’t change anything.

This is also a really good question that I want Ydrasse to answer.

VOTE: 72offsuit

You say that you believe scum quickhammers on D1 are tremendously bad play.

Then why do you attribute my hammer as a scum move rather than the mistake that it was?

[72offsuit]

Yes, i do realise how easy it is to say that, thats why im not surprised ive got 4 votes on myself.

In no way have i been uncooperative.

[72offsuit]

Id say eliminating Unowen in ElLo (Eliminate or Lose) tomorrow

[72offsuit]

So... That was an error, not lack of cooperation

[72offsuit]

If 72 is scum, he has played this game very poorly imo

This is why we need to spend more time on UNOwen, Ydrasse, Mini, and myself. 72 strikes me as a pretty capable player, I don't think he instahammers unless there's a benefit to him. Like I said, I think the worst case scenario is his partner is Ydrasse or UNOwen and set to have a really good chance to endgame, in which case we need to do as much as we can to give ourselves a chance at solving them. I myself don't want to be an easy mislynch for scum here

So what was the benefit for! ScumMe to hammer there?

[72offsuit]

@italiano:

Spoiler:

I guess I'd be okay with a 72 lynch today, however I can't shake it that GuiltyLion was the one that broke the tie first and also pulled his vote away from DoctorPepper.

also on this, my move to TTJT was motivated primarily because I really didn't like how he was dancing around both DocPep and 72 slots, it felt like he was noncommittal about making reads or votes on either of the slots in question. Also because we really needed to consolidate on a lynch at that point and at that point I was fine with any of the three, if anything I was starting to have some doubts about DocPep

No, you're right he was, that's why I read him as such and wanted to keep an eye on him had he survived the lynch. Now we know he flipped green, so although he was suspicious by most (including me), I need to look at why it happened the way it did and see if I can make sense of it. 72 was being questioned (in post and in thought) by myself, Ydrasse, and Walter because of his and DoctorPepper's late day exchange, however I was the only one that voted for him. To be fair, I was a lot more suspicious than they were, but I especially thought Walter would vote 72, since he had been suspicious of him early in the day. And I'll have to recheck, but I don't ever remember Walter easing off or feeling better about 72 up to that point. Ydrasse was kind of touching on it, but to me it still seemed like DoctorPepper wouldn't have been her vote.

you have to understand fmpov how shady that hammer looked coming from 72, and fmpov it was a potential way for scum!72 to survive when votes started to pile up against him. it wasn't so much that jt was a threat but that it was the only option for self-preservation in that moment.

Self Preservation? He was tied at 3 with DoctorPepper and JT and everyone had voted. That's not self-preservation. And neither of the moves look good imo. Both GuiltyLion and 72 were suspicious of DoctorPepper for their own reasons and simply unvoted him to vote for a player that in both their cases were less scummy. 72 made a whole case for DoctorPepper and ended up voting for JT. GuiltyLion thought DoctorPepper was soft claiming as I did and voted him thinking him scum and then just didn't vote for him, so both moves look suspicious to me not just 72's. I have to say your self-preservation angle is strange at best and outright false at worse.

and for doctorpepper, i still had misgivings in 552. he was jumping on people who were voting him, his activity came only after the pressure on him started, and he was ignoring things that i found weird to ignore in lieu of tunneling the people who were after him. and when i came back, jt was already hammered and i was reading in the context of 72 doing that. seeing 72 slap down a vote and then go "oops" made me realize how 72 had already tried to get out of going toe to toe with dp and as i stated, i thought that him doing that could've been a way to avoid getting lynched as scum. my read of dp flipped pretty fast after that.

Why didn't you mention it then? I know your vote was already there and it didn't matter because TTJT was already hammered.

how is saying that it's self preservation false? fmpov, scum!72 sees that one of the wagons (that he was first upon) is dying out, leaving him competing with another one. one of the safety options is gone and he has to make sure that he as scum is not lynched, so he throws down a hammer onto jt and claims it's an accident so that things cannot be turned back onto him.

especially given the fact that, like i said, dp at that point was adamant about it being either dp or 72. a scum!72 realizes that in the event that it's between him and dp, and if dp goes down first there's a high chance the town focuses in on him the next day. that, or he gets voted off that day (meaning day 1) outright. so instead, it's better to turn the hammer onto someone outside of those two so he doesn't have to continue dealing with the pressure of dp's tunneling and insistence it's between them two. it's another option that, from his pov, could present greater odds of getting through the day.

and which part didn't i mention then? do you mean why didn't i mention my misgivings when it came to dp, or the fact that i thought his content had improved? the former i feel can be seen in that my vote was STILL on dp for a reason — he had gotten townier, but it isn't outside a realm of possibility that he was still scum to me given the fact of where his suspicions rested. a lot of this wasn't mentioned because i was gone from the time after i had asked dp some stuff and when 72 was hammered, and the hammer itself made me reconsider a lot of things at eod.

Spoiler:

what the hell

What does this mean? What are you talking about?

i think that dp became townier the longer it went on. 568 in particular is a good representation of this thought process.

And yet you still voted for him.

i don't know if a scum!72 would hammer like that and try to pretend it was fake/accidental though, because that seems dumb as hell to do.

Okay, but to be fair we are acting as if scum!72 would be cool, calm, and collected. He could have very well made a mistake under pressure. We say it's dumb because we're looking at it from a town perspective but as scum and being on edge, it could have very well been a slip up. At best he is just a townie who made a major mistake, but I think either way he should be the lynch today.

even in that post, i don't get why he called the vote itself empty. also that, and 121 where he states that he's fine keeping his vote on italiano, but he can imagine a world where his actions are towny, and he also agrees with your wagon as well and supports it from a distance. so he's pretty low in my poe. the two other people who i consider pretty low in it are voting him though which... . i think there's at least one scum in {italiano, jt, owen}.

What are you feeling now? I know this is old, but you have iso'd GuiltyLion & Walter. Have you done anyone else yet?

if 72 is scum the mishammer was definitely to get out of the 1v1 with dp.

Hate to beat a dead horse, but isn't this more reason for you not to have voted DoctorPepper?

also i feel that if 72 is scum too gl just became a lot more of a likely partner and they could have coordinated that vote on a townie!jt.

Do you feel more strong, equal, or less about this after the JT flip?

To me doctor pepper and jt are on two different sides where one is town vs one being scum.

This is interesting. Now with the JT flip, do you still feel this way?

Guilty Lion, in post 556 you mentioned:

"I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what I think the associative between TTJT and DocPep is, whether it's T-S in either direction or S-S. I can find evidence a few different ways but nothing that feels conclusive to me, and assuming there's scum involved then there's likely some intentional manipulation being attempted as well."

Two questions:

1) Why was there no mention of T-T?
2) How do you feel now? Now that JT flipped townie? Is DoctorPepper the Scum?

1) i said what the hell because i came back to 72 claiming that he hadn't seen the vote on dp at all. it was a mess to come back to, lmfao.

2) yes. i voted for him when i thought he was scummy, and my vote stayed there after because despite improvements i still thought there was a chance dp could be scum.

3) yeah, that's fair, which is why my vote is on 72 as it is. in context with everything else it doesn't seem like it was an accidental vote given how much 72 benefited from it in that moment, but i have to consider all the possibilities.

4) ii still have some suspicions that are lingering in that pool i presented. i haven't gotten around to iso'ing either of you yet. i'm going to do it sometime during this day. you're not as high on my scumread list though, after that fiasco in d1.

for owen i have to reread, because i don't remember him ever making a push on me and i don't understand why he's saying that i'm one of two required partners for 72, and instead saying that you brought up a good point and then not offering his own opinions from the reread that he did. his response to guiltylion in 695 seems deflective of the pressure put onto him imo without giving reasons.

5) like i said, the 72 hammer made me rethink a lot of things pretty quickly.

-

what about you? i know you posted a reads list in 541, but i assume that's changed at this point?

Ydrasse, i ask: show me evidence HOW the TTJT wagon was losing momentum, quoting posts that suggests this was the case.

[72offsuit]

@italiano:

Spoiler:

I guess I'd be okay with a 72 lynch today, however I can't shake it that GuiltyLion was the one that broke the tie first and also pulled his vote away from DoctorPepper.

also on this, my move to TTJT was motivated primarily because I really didn't like how he was dancing around both DocPep and 72 slots, it felt like he was noncommittal about making reads or votes on either of the slots in question. Also because we really needed to consolidate on a lynch at that point and at that point I was fine with any of the three, if anything I was starting to have some doubts about DocPep

No, you're right he was, that's why I read him as such and wanted to keep an eye on him had he survived the lynch. Now we know he flipped green, so although he was suspicious by most (including me), I need to look at why it happened the way it did and see if I can make sense of it. 72 was being questioned (in post and in thought) by myself, Ydrasse, and Walter because of his and DoctorPepper's late day exchange, however I was the only one that voted for him. To be fair, I was a lot more suspicious than they were, but I especially thought Walter would vote 72, since he had been suspicious of him early in the day. And I'll have to recheck, but I don't ever remember Walter easing off or feeling better about 72 up to that point. Ydrasse was kind of touching on it, but to me it still seemed like DoctorPepper wouldn't have been her vote.

you have to understand fmpov how shady that hammer looked coming from 72, and fmpov it was a potential way for scum!72 to survive when votes started to pile up against him. it wasn't so much that jt was a threat but that it was the only option for self-preservation in that moment.

Self Preservation? He was tied at 3 with DoctorPepper and JT and everyone had voted. That's not self-preservation. And neither of the moves look good imo. Both GuiltyLion and 72 were suspicious of DoctorPepper for their own reasons and simply unvoted him to vote for a player that in both their cases were less scummy. 72 made a whole case for DoctorPepper and ended up voting for JT. GuiltyLion thought DoctorPepper was soft claiming as I did and voted him thinking him scum and then just didn't vote for him, so both moves look suspicious to me not just 72's. I have to say your self-preservation angle is strange at best and outright false at worse.

and for doctorpepper, i still had misgivings in 552. he was jumping on people who were voting him, his activity came only after the pressure on him started, and he was ignoring things that i found weird to ignore in lieu of tunneling the people who were after him. and when i came back, jt was already hammered and i was reading in the context of 72 doing that. seeing 72 slap down a vote and then go "oops" made me realize how 72 had already tried to get out of going toe to toe with dp and as i stated, i thought that him doing that could've been a way to avoid getting lynched as scum. my read of dp flipped pretty fast after that.

Why didn't you mention it then? I know your vote was already there and it didn't matter because TTJT was already hammered.

how is saying that it's self preservation false? fmpov, scum!72 sees that one of the wagons (that he was first upon) is dying out, leaving him competing with another one. one of the safety options is gone and he has to make sure that he as scum is not lynched, so he throws down a hammer onto jt and claims it's an accident so that things cannot be turned back onto him.

especially given the fact that, like i said, dp at that point was adamant about it being either dp or 72. a scum!72 realizes that in the event that it's between him and dp, and if dp goes down first there's a high chance the town focuses in on him the next day. that, or he gets voted off that day (meaning day 1) outright. so instead, it's better to turn the hammer onto someone outside of those two so he doesn't have to continue dealing with the pressure of dp's tunneling and insistence it's between them two. it's another option that, from his pov, could present greater odds of getting through the day.

and which part didn't i mention then? do you mean why didn't i mention my misgivings when it came to dp, or the fact that i thought his content had improved? the former i feel can be seen in that my vote was STILL on dp for a reason — he had gotten townier, but it isn't outside a realm of possibility that he was still scum to me given the fact of where his suspicions rested. a lot of this wasn't mentioned because i was gone from the time after i had asked dp some stuff and when 72 was hammered, and the hammer itself made me reconsider a lot of things at eod.

Spoiler:

what the hell

What does this mean? What are you talking about?

i think that dp became townier the longer it went on. 568 in particular is a good representation of this thought process.

And yet you still voted for him.

i don't know if a scum!72 would hammer like that and try to pretend it was fake/accidental though, because that seems dumb as hell to do.

Okay, but to be fair we are acting as if scum!72 would be cool, calm, and collected. He could have very well made a mistake under pressure. We say it's dumb because we're looking at it from a town perspective but as scum and being on edge, it could have very well been a slip up. At best he is just a townie who made a major mistake, but I think either way he should be the lynch today.

even in that post, i don't get why he called the vote itself empty. also that, and 121 where he states that he's fine keeping his vote on italiano, but he can imagine a world where his actions are towny, and he also agrees with your wagon as well and supports it from a distance. so he's pretty low in my poe. the two other people who i consider pretty low in it are voting him though which... . i think there's at least one scum in {italiano, jt, owen}.

What are you feeling now? I know this is old, but you have iso'd GuiltyLion & Walter. Have you done anyone else yet?

if 72 is scum the mishammer was definitely to get out of the 1v1 with dp.

Hate to beat a dead horse, but isn't this more reason for you not to have voted DoctorPepper?

also i feel that if 72 is scum too gl just became a lot more of a likely partner and they could have coordinated that vote on a townie!jt.

Do you feel more strong, equal, or less about this after the JT flip?

To me doctor pepper and jt are on two different sides where one is town vs one being scum.

This is interesting. Now with the JT flip, do you still feel this way?

Guilty Lion, in post 556 you mentioned:

"I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what I think the associative between TTJT and DocPep is, whether it's T-S in either direction or S-S. I can find evidence a few different ways but nothing that feels conclusive to me, and assuming there's scum involved then there's likely some intentional manipulation being attempted as well."

Two questions:

1) Why was there no mention of T-T?
2) How do you feel now? Now that JT flipped townie? Is DoctorPepper the Scum?

1) i said what the hell because i came back to 72 claiming that he hadn't seen the vote on dp at all. it was a mess to come back to, lmfao.

2) yes. i voted for him when i thought he was scummy, and my vote stayed there after because despite improvements i still thought there was a chance dp could be scum.

3) yeah, that's fair, which is why my vote is on 72 as it is. in context with everything else it doesn't seem like it was an accidental vote given how much 72 benefited from it in that moment, but i have to consider all the possibilities.

4) ii still have some suspicions that are lingering in that pool i presented. i haven't gotten around to iso'ing either of you yet. i'm going to do it sometime during this day. you're not as high on my scumread list though, after that fiasco in d1.

for owen i have to reread, because i don't remember him ever making a push on me and i don't understand why he's saying that i'm one of two required partners for 72, and instead saying that you brought up a good point and then not offering his own opinions from the reread that he did. his response to guiltylion in 695 seems deflective of the pressure put onto him imo without giving reasons.

5) like i said, the 72 hammer made me rethink a lot of things pretty quickly.

-

what about you? i know you posted a reads list in 541, but i assume that's changed at this point?

Who gives 2 hoots that DP was adamant about lynching between the 2 of us. How does that affect !ScumMe's approach? DP is ALREADY voting for me, so cannot pose a further threat to! ScumMe.

[72offsuit]

@italiano:

Spoiler:

I guess I'd be okay with a 72 lynch today, however I can't shake it that GuiltyLion was the one that broke the tie first and also pulled his vote away from DoctorPepper.

also on this, my move to TTJT was motivated primarily because I really didn't like how he was dancing around both DocPep and 72 slots, it felt like he was noncommittal about making reads or votes on either of the slots in question. Also because we really needed to consolidate on a lynch at that point and at that point I was fine with any of the three, if anything I was starting to have some doubts about DocPep

No, you're right he was, that's why I read him as such and wanted to keep an eye on him had he survived the lynch. Now we know he flipped green, so although he was suspicious by most (including me), I need to look at why it happened the way it did and see if I can make sense of it. 72 was being questioned (in post and in thought) by myself, Ydrasse, and Walter because of his and DoctorPepper's late day exchange, however I was the only one that voted for him. To be fair, I was a lot more suspicious than they were, but I especially thought Walter would vote 72, since he had been suspicious of him early in the day. And I'll have to recheck, but I don't ever remember Walter easing off or feeling better about 72 up to that point. Ydrasse was kind of touching on it, but to me it still seemed like DoctorPepper wouldn't have been her vote.

you have to understand fmpov how shady that hammer looked coming from 72, and fmpov it was a potential way for scum!72 to survive when votes started to pile up against him. it wasn't so much that jt was a threat but that it was the only option for self-preservation in that moment.

Self Preservation? He was tied at 3 with DoctorPepper and JT and everyone had voted. That's not self-preservation. And neither of the moves look good imo. Both GuiltyLion and 72 were suspicious of DoctorPepper for their own reasons and simply unvoted him to vote for a player that in both their cases were less scummy. 72 made a whole case for DoctorPepper and ended up voting for JT. GuiltyLion thought DoctorPepper was soft claiming as I did and voted him thinking him scum and then just didn't vote for him, so both moves look suspicious to me not just 72's. I have to say your self-preservation angle is strange at best and outright false at worse.

and for doctorpepper, i still had misgivings in 552. he was jumping on people who were voting him, his activity came only after the pressure on him started, and he was ignoring things that i found weird to ignore in lieu of tunneling the people who were after him. and when i came back, jt was already hammered and i was reading in the context of 72 doing that. seeing 72 slap down a vote and then go "oops" made me realize how 72 had already tried to get out of going toe to toe with dp and as i stated, i thought that him doing that could've been a way to avoid getting lynched as scum. my read of dp flipped pretty fast after that.

Why didn't you mention it then? I know your vote was already there and it didn't matter because TTJT was already hammered.

how is saying that it's self preservation false? fmpov, scum!72 sees that one of the wagons (that he was first upon) is dying out, leaving him competing with another one. one of the safety options is gone and he has to make sure that he as scum is not lynched, so he throws down a hammer onto jt and claims it's an accident so that things cannot be turned back onto him.

especially given the fact that, like i said, dp at that point was adamant about it being either dp or 72. a scum!72 realizes that in the event that it's between him and dp, and if dp goes down first there's a high chance the town focuses in on him the next day. that, or he gets voted off that day (meaning day 1) outright. so instead, it's better to turn the hammer onto someone outside of those two so he doesn't have to continue dealing with the pressure of dp's tunneling and insistence it's between them two. it's another option that, from his pov, could present greater odds of getting through the day.

and which part didn't i mention then? do you mean why didn't i mention my misgivings when it came to dp, or the fact that i thought his content had improved? the former i feel can be seen in that my vote was STILL on dp for a reason — he had gotten townier, but it isn't outside a realm of possibility that he was still scum to me given the fact of where his suspicions rested. a lot of this wasn't mentioned because i was gone from the time after i had asked dp some stuff and when 72 was hammered, and the hammer itself made me reconsider a lot of things at eod.

Spoiler:

what the hell

What does this mean? What are you talking about?

i think that dp became townier the longer it went on. 568 in particular is a good representation of this thought process.

And yet you still voted for him.

i don't know if a scum!72 would hammer like that and try to pretend it was fake/accidental though, because that seems dumb as hell to do.

Okay, but to be fair we are acting as if scum!72 would be cool, calm, and collected. He could have very well made a mistake under pressure. We say it's dumb because we're looking at it from a town perspective but as scum and being on edge, it could have very well been a slip up. At best he is just a townie who made a major mistake, but I think either way he should be the lynch today.

even in that post, i don't get why he called the vote itself empty. also that, and 121 where he states that he's fine keeping his vote on italiano, but he can imagine a world where his actions are towny, and he also agrees with your wagon as well and supports it from a distance. so he's pretty low in my poe. the two other people who i consider pretty low in it are voting him though which... . i think there's at least one scum in {italiano, jt, owen}.

What are you feeling now? I know this is old, but you have iso'd GuiltyLion & Walter. Have you done anyone else yet?

if 72 is scum the mishammer was definitely to get out of the 1v1 with dp.

Hate to beat a dead horse, but isn't this more reason for you not to have voted DoctorPepper?

also i feel that if 72 is scum too gl just became a lot more of a likely partner and they could have coordinated that vote on a townie!jt.

Do you feel more strong, equal, or less about this after the JT flip?

To me doctor pepper and jt are on two different sides where one is town vs one being scum.

This is interesting. Now with the JT flip, do you still feel this way?

Guilty Lion, in post 556 you mentioned:

"I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what I think the associative between TTJT and DocPep is, whether it's T-S in either direction or S-S. I can find evidence a few different ways but nothing that feels conclusive to me, and assuming there's scum involved then there's likely some intentional manipulation being attempted as well."

Two questions:

1) Why was there no mention of T-T?
2) How do you feel now? Now that JT flipped townie? Is DoctorPepper the Scum?

1) i said what the hell because i came back to 72 claiming that he hadn't seen the vote on dp at all. it was a mess to come back to, lmfao.

2) yes. i voted for him when i thought he was scummy, and my vote stayed there after because despite improvements i still thought there was a chance dp could be scum.

3) yeah, that's fair, which is why my vote is on 72 as it is. in context with everything else it doesn't seem like it was an accidental vote given how much 72 benefited from it in that moment, but i have to consider all the possibilities.

4) ii still have some suspicions that are lingering in that pool i presented. i haven't gotten around to iso'ing either of you yet. i'm going to do it sometime during this day. you're not as high on my scumread list though, after that fiasco in d1.

for owen i have to reread, because i don't remember him ever making a push on me and i don't understand why he's saying that i'm one of two required partners for 72, and instead saying that you brought up a good point and then not offering his own opinions from the reread that he did. his response to guiltylion in 695 seems deflective of the pressure put onto him imo without giving reasons.

5) like i said, the 72 hammer made me rethink a lot of things pretty quickly.

-

what about you? i know you posted a reads list in 541, but i assume that's changed at this point?

Who gives 2 hoots that DP was adamant about lynching between the 2 of us. How does that affect !ScumMe's approach? DP is ALREADY voting for me, so cannot pose a further threat to! ScumMe.

[72offsuit]

@italiano:

Spoiler:

I guess I'd be okay with a 72 lynch today, however I can't shake it that GuiltyLion was the one that broke the tie first and also pulled his vote away from DoctorPepper.

also on this, my move to TTJT was motivated primarily because I really didn't like how he was dancing around both DocPep and 72 slots, it felt like he was noncommittal about making reads or votes on either of the slots in question. Also because we really needed to consolidate on a lynch at that point and at that point I was fine with any of the three, if anything I was starting to have some doubts about DocPep

No, you're right he was, that's why I read him as such and wanted to keep an eye on him had he survived the lynch. Now we know he flipped green, so although he was suspicious by most (including me), I need to look at why it happened the way it did and see if I can make sense of it. 72 was being questioned (in post and in thought) by myself, Ydrasse, and Walter because of his and DoctorPepper's late day exchange, however I was the only one that voted for him. To be fair, I was a lot more suspicious than they were, but I especially thought Walter would vote 72, since he had been suspicious of him early in the day. And I'll have to recheck, but I don't ever remember Walter easing off or feeling better about 72 up to that point. Ydrasse was kind of touching on it, but to me it still seemed like DoctorPepper wouldn't have been her vote.

you have to understand fmpov how shady that hammer looked coming from 72, and fmpov it was a potential way for scum!72 to survive when votes started to pile up against him. it wasn't so much that jt was a threat but that it was the only option for self-preservation in that moment.

Self Preservation? He was tied at 3 with DoctorPepper and JT and everyone had voted. That's not self-preservation. And neither of the moves look good imo. Both GuiltyLion and 72 were suspicious of DoctorPepper for their own reasons and simply unvoted him to vote for a player that in both their cases were less scummy. 72 made a whole case for DoctorPepper and ended up voting for JT. GuiltyLion thought DoctorPepper was soft claiming as I did and voted him thinking him scum and then just didn't vote for him, so both moves look suspicious to me not just 72's. I have to say your self-preservation angle is strange at best and outright false at worse.

and for doctorpepper, i still had misgivings in 552. he was jumping on people who were voting him, his activity came only after the pressure on him started, and he was ignoring things that i found weird to ignore in lieu of tunneling the people who were after him. and when i came back, jt was already hammered and i was reading in the context of 72 doing that. seeing 72 slap down a vote and then go "oops" made me realize how 72 had already tried to get out of going toe to toe with dp and as i stated, i thought that him doing that could've been a way to avoid getting lynched as scum. my read of dp flipped pretty fast after that.

Why didn't you mention it then? I know your vote was already there and it didn't matter because TTJT was already hammered.

how is saying that it's self preservation false? fmpov, scum!72 sees that one of the wagons (that he was first upon) is dying out, leaving him competing with another one. one of the safety options is gone and he has to make sure that he as scum is not lynched, so he throws down a hammer onto jt and claims it's an accident so that things cannot be turned back onto him.

especially given the fact that, like i said, dp at that point was adamant about it being either dp or 72. a scum!72 realizes that in the event that it's between him and dp, and if dp goes down first there's a high chance the town focuses in on him the next day. that, or he gets voted off that day (meaning day 1) outright. so instead, it's better to turn the hammer onto someone outside of those two so he doesn't have to continue dealing with the pressure of dp's tunneling and insistence it's between them two. it's another option that, from his pov, could present greater odds of getting through the day.

and which part didn't i mention then? do you mean why didn't i mention my misgivings when it came to dp, or the fact that i thought his content had improved? the former i feel can be seen in that my vote was STILL on dp for a reason — he had gotten townier, but it isn't outside a realm of possibility that he was still scum to me given the fact of where his suspicions rested. a lot of this wasn't mentioned because i was gone from the time after i had asked dp some stuff and when 72 was hammered, and the hammer itself made me reconsider a lot of things at eod.

Spoiler:

what the hell

What does this mean? What are you talking about?

i think that dp became townier the longer it went on. 568 in particular is a good representation of this thought process.

And yet you still voted for him.

i don't know if a scum!72 would hammer like that and try to pretend it was fake/accidental though, because that seems dumb as hell to do.

Okay, but to be fair we are acting as if scum!72 would be cool, calm, and collected. He could have very well made a mistake under pressure. We say it's dumb because we're looking at it from a town perspective but as scum and being on edge, it could have very well been a slip up. At best he is just a townie who made a major mistake, but I think either way he should be the lynch today.

even in that post, i don't get why he called the vote itself empty. also that, and 121 where he states that he's fine keeping his vote on italiano, but he can imagine a world where his actions are towny, and he also agrees with your wagon as well and supports it from a distance. so he's pretty low in my poe. the two other people who i consider pretty low in it are voting him though which... . i think there's at least one scum in {italiano, jt, owen}.

What are you feeling now? I know this is old, but you have iso'd GuiltyLion & Walter. Have you done anyone else yet?

if 72 is scum the mishammer was definitely to get out of the 1v1 with dp.

Hate to beat a dead horse, but isn't this more reason for you not to have voted DoctorPepper?

also i feel that if 72 is scum too gl just became a lot more of a likely partner and they could have coordinated that vote on a townie!jt.

Do you feel more strong, equal, or less about this after the JT flip?

To me doctor pepper and jt are on two different sides where one is town vs one being scum.

This is interesting. Now with the JT flip, do you still feel this way?

Guilty Lion, in post 556 you mentioned:

"I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what I think the associative between TTJT and DocPep is, whether it's T-S in either direction or S-S. I can find evidence a few different ways but nothing that feels conclusive to me, and assuming there's scum involved then there's likely some intentional manipulation being attempted as well."

Two questions:

1) Why was there no mention of T-T?
2) How do you feel now? Now that JT flipped townie? Is DoctorPepper the Scum?

1) i said what the hell because i came back to 72 claiming that he hadn't seen the vote on dp at all. it was a mess to come back to, lmfao.

2) yes. i voted for him when i thought he was scummy, and my vote stayed there after because despite improvements i still thought there was a chance dp could be scum.

3) yeah, that's fair, which is why my vote is on 72 as it is. in context with everything else it doesn't seem like it was an accidental vote given how much 72 benefited from it in that moment, but i have to consider all the possibilities.

4) ii still have some suspicions that are lingering in that pool i presented. i haven't gotten around to iso'ing either of you yet. i'm going to do it sometime during this day. you're not as high on my scumread list though, after that fiasco in d1.

for owen i have to reread, because i don't remember him ever making a push on me and i don't understand why he's saying that i'm one of two required partners for 72, and instead saying that you brought up a good point and then not offering his own opinions from the reread that he did. his response to guiltylion in 695 seems deflective of the pressure put onto him imo without giving reasons.

5) like i said, the 72 hammer made me rethink a lot of things pretty quickly.

-

what about you? i know you posted a reads list in 541, but i assume that's changed at this point?

Who gives 2 hoots that DP was adamant about lynching between the 2 of us. How does that affect !ScumMe's approach? DP is ALREADY voting for me, so cannot pose a further threat to! ScumMe.

[72offsuit]

VOTE: Unowen

[72offsuit]

Town
+2 IVD

+0.5 Walter

Null
Ydd

Scum
-0.5: Mini, DP

-1: GL
-1.5: Uno

[72offsuit]

Actually more like GL -2

[72offsuit]

I'm wondering why !scum TTJT wouldnt vote for mini

Why would they both vote for Walter, when its unlikely walter will be lynched?

eh actually that's a fair point

I think TTJT's vote for Walter doesn't make a lot of sense in general to me. Like you said, it's unlikely Walter will be lynched. I didn't vibe with the case, I think TTJT just summarized a lot of Walter's play but didn't actually do the legwork of why he thinks Walter is scum outside of "afraid to lead wagons". And I got the sense TTJT is avoiding the DoctorPepper wagon. That's why I thought the associative made sense, but it is a good question why scum!TTJT doesn't just vote Mini there.

Anyone care to explain TTJT as scum? I'm kinda town reading their posts because the UNOwen analysis makes sense to me

yeh I guess this is also unlikely from scum!DocPep with scum!TTJT

VOTE: Doctor Pepper

It makes no sense for them to drive a lunch at this point if they know their target will flip town due to the backlash that would fall.

How do you possibly say this and then decide to vote 72 when he was the one most vocal about driving a lynch today

that's too much cognitive dissonance for me to ignore at this point
VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

DoctorPepper - if you are town, please revisit the point about 72

steering the lynch away from TTJT and onto you

and why that's scum-motivated. I think if you're town, you're letting your frustration at being pushed for activity blind you to the fact that there's really no incentive to do that if he's scum, unless he's exactly partnered with TTJT.

also i feel that if 72 is scum too gl just became a lot more of a likely partner and they could have coordinated that vote on a townie!jt.

if jt is scum i don't know what motivation a scum 72 has to hammer his partner though or even switch wagons like that when he's under a lot of scrutiny because dp is going to still go after him the next day.

If JT isn't trolling then the partner is probably GuiltyLion.

IMO both these twilight shades were ugly

I would like both of you to explain why exactly you think scum!GL and scum!72 have any kind of need to coordinate a quickhammer there. I know it may not mean much coming from me, but I believe scum quickhammers on D1 are tremendously bad play unless you're absolutely sure you've got the PR (even then, it's a gamble that can easily sink you), and I really don't see how you think TTJT was such an urgent need to remove that our hypothetical team would need to trash my good standing as well as 72's in order to secure THAT specific D1 mislynch.

i feel that dp had a lot more to lose from thunderdoming it out with 72 in this situation and i think that 72's response of "oh we can work this out you might not be scum" feels scummier than dp's conviction that 72 is scum. i think that dp became townier the longer it went on. 568 in particular is a good representation of this thought process.

i don't know if a scum!72 would hammer like that and try to pretend it was fake/accidental though, because that seems dumb as hell to do.

I’m wondering when you felt this because you voted for DoctorPepper. Whether it was before or after you voted for him doesn’t change anything.

This is also a really good question that I want Ydrasse to answer.

VOTE: 72offsuit

This progression doesn;t feel like town at all

[72offsuit]

VOTE: GL

[72offsuit]

I'm already voting 72.

Yup I know. That’s why I was asking GuiltyLion.

Ye, he wants to eliminate me but doesny want my blood on his hands.

[72offsuit]

To me the other potential scum could be mini or unowen, with 72 being one of them.
However, if 72 is town then my reads are off.
I plan to do a reread but need to find the time.
Docpepper is town along with jt now.

What do you think of my argument about why 72-Mini is an unlikely scum team?

It's lame.

[72offsuit]

To me the other potential scum could be mini or unowen, with 72 being one of them.
However, if 72 is town then my reads are off.
I plan to do a reread but need to find the time.
Docpepper is town along with jt now.

Hypothetical: You have a cop result from day 0 on me that says I;m town.
Who is scum in that scenario?

[72offsuit]

Yep scum is really quaking in their boots with all the scumhunting.

[72offsuit]

There's no reason to rush 72 to his excommunicado.

Okay well ignore my next post then as I think I understand. Has 72 claimed yet?

He has not claimed yet.

So there is talk about when people are 1 vote away from being eliminated the person is to claim but 72 hasn’t claimed yet? Can I ask why?

The standard of play, is that if someone is willing to be the final voter on a lynch, they declare INTENT TO HAMMER.

When they do so, the person at risk of being lynched claims at this point in time. Until that occurs, claiming is -EV for town.

[72offsuit]

EBWOP elimination*, sry

[72offsuit]

I'll eat my hat if both Uno and GL are town.

[72offsuit]

@72 what exactly makes you think GuiltyLion is scum? And I’m assuming you believe UNOwen is his partner? Is it because he voted for you? Do you feel as strongly for DoctorPepper? Or myself? Or Ydrasse or Walter? Unless voting is not he reason and there is another one?

Because his changes of votes and progression of his play, don't strike me as being of a town mindset.

Looking back, despite me being on TTJT's wagon, the reasoning for the wagon was pretty weak. I don;t really see a world where that wagon is all town.
GL's rationale for being on the lynch was largely just parroting others

At 440 , he seems to townlean me, as he is working collaboratively with me and switches votes to DP alongside myself.

Continues insisting on townreading UNO which I don;t see at all.

556 concludes that TTJT and DP includes at least 1 scum, doesnt consider the possiblility both are town.

Then switches to me without really much thought at all, after my epic fail, which is at odds with his seemingly townlean on me earlier.

[72offsuit]

T-24 to

HAMMER

.
Time to claim 72.

VT.

[72offsuit]

I'd say eliminate UNO.\ tomorrow. There is literally 0 town vibes coming from his slot.
At least GL has a few psots that seem pro-town.

[72offsuit]

Again to the nonvoters at the moment: Mini, UNOwen, GuiltyLion

You all obviously don’t want to hammer, so if you feel 72 is town who are you looking at or who have you looked at?

@UNOwen. You still feel just as strongly about GuiltyLion being scum as you were before or has that died down?

I wanted Mini to catch up and Ydrasse to make clear where she stands (last mention of Walter was 317, where he was an almost scum read), but I have always been happy to hammer 72. His play this day has been passive side-line snark and matches the play that DoctorPepper was originally suspected for back in day 1 - by 72 himself no less. DoctorPepper explained his play with irl reasons but 72 has no justification.

Re: GuiltyLion, I feel more strongly that he is scum than before. I had noticed that the reasons he suspected me over Ydrasse never materialised and also his case against Mini felt like he was more concerned with trying to get me to consider Mini-72 rather than it being something he actually believed (that he was using misleading vote analysis adds to this suspicion). I also note that GuiltyLion went from betting the game on 72 being town (424) to not being willing to consider 72 town unless he flips town. Since his only reason for suspecting 72 is the quickhammer this seems a drastic change. That makes me think GuiltyLion either knows 72 is going to flip scum and doesn't want to be seen as defending him or knows he is going to flip town and wants to frame the day in such a way as to be useless post flip.

Of course you are happy to have a free mislynch.

[72offsuit]

sorry, i haven’t been around a lot because of vacation. i’ll be back soon!

however, general thoughts on the game state is that scum is benefitting regardless of 72’s alignment from the situation. town!72 being eliminated is good for scum for obvious reasons but also that i feel the effort to scumhunt has stagnated to some degree...? 72’s elimination feels like an inevitability and allows the scum team to get by without much scrutiny when the chopping block is already filled for the day.

as scum!72, the benefit is lessened by virtue of scum getting eliminated, but i feel that there’s an equal chance that his partner would be on or off the wagon. being on it doesn’t seem so bad when the town as a collective seems dead set on eliminating him and it’s hust another vote to the decided elimination. off it it’s simple to pass off not wanting their partner as “oh i didn’t wanna hammer him!” and then letting things drag out — i don’t feel that a scum player right now would feel hammering 72 is an option, until everyone is content with the amount of scumhunting done.

however, the lack of a claim for 72 thus far... confuses me? at least, from the perspective of 72 being scum i don’t see any reason for 72 not to have claimed pr for the sake of his partner before like, self-hammering or something? i don’t get what the point of dragging out the day so far when it just gives the town time to hunt for his partner in this situation. or he could say he’s VT and hope the town is like “lol okay then” and hammers. it seems counter-intuitive to setting up a winning gamestate for his partner.

i don’t think that any convincing argument has been made by 72 fmpov to defend his actions other than saying it was an accident and us having to take that, as well as some attempts to push/scumhunt which to me feel lackluster and an effort to deflect? i guess that could be the inevitable feeling that comes with a ton of votes suddenly on you.

so @everyone: what do you think 72 is trying to accomplish right now? i think that the most obvious answer is survival but what does his partner benefit from it if he’s scum?

as i stand right now, my do not eliminate pool is currently {doctorpepper, guiltylion, walter} and my elimination pool is {72, mini, owen, italiano}.

Not a surprise the alignment indicative posting went downhill after DP sapped my desire to propel the game forward.
Just a quick glance at the post count is pretty indicative of scum coasting to an easy win.

[72offsuit]

UNO strikes me as quite a competent player, and his lack of any compelling cases as to who scum is, feels telling.

[72offsuit]

Again to the nonvoters at the moment: Mini, UNOwen, GuiltyLion

You all obviously don’t want to hammer, so if you feel 72 is town who are you looking at or who have you looked at?

@UNOwen. You still feel just as strongly about GuiltyLion being scum as you were before or has that died down?

I wanted Mini to catch up and Ydrasse to make clear where she stands (last mention of Walter was 317, where he was an almost scum read), but I have always been happy to hammer 72. His play this day has been passive side-line snark and matches the play that DoctorPepper was originally suspected for back in day 1 - by 72 himself no less. DoctorPepper explained his play with irl reasons but 72 has no justification.

Re: GuiltyLion, I feel more strongly that he is scum than before. I had noticed that the reasons he suspected me over Ydrasse never materialised and also his case against Mini felt like he was more concerned with trying to get me to consider Mini-72 rather than it being something he actually believed (that he was using misleading vote analysis adds to this suspicion). I also note that GuiltyLion went from betting the game on 72 being town (424) to not being willing to consider 72 town unless he flips town. Since his only reason for suspecting 72 is the quickhammer this seems a drastic change. That makes me think GuiltyLion either knows 72 is going to flip scum and doesn't want to be seen as defending him or knows he is going to flip town and wants to frame the day in such a way as to be useless post flip.

Like I said, DP sapped my enjoyment out of this game.

[72offsuit]

sorry, i haven’t been around a lot because of vacation. i’ll be back soon!

however, general thoughts on the game state is that scum is benefitting regardless of 72’s alignment from the situation. town!72 being eliminated is good for scum for obvious reasons but also that i feel the effort to scumhunt has stagnated to some degree...? 72’s elimination feels like an inevitability and allows the scum team to get by without much scrutiny when the chopping block is already filled for the day.

as scum!72, the benefit is lessened by virtue of scum getting eliminated, but i feel that there’s an equal chance that his partner would be on or off the wagon. being on it doesn’t seem so bad when the town as a collective seems dead set on eliminating him and it’s hust another vote to the decided elimination. off it it’s simple to pass off not wanting their partner as “oh i didn’t wanna hammer him!” and then letting things drag out — i don’t feel that a scum player right now would feel hammering 72 is an option, until everyone is content with the amount of scumhunting done.

however, the lack of a claim for 72 thus far... confuses me? at least, from the perspective of 72 being scum i don’t see any reason for 72 not to have claimed pr for the sake of his partner before like, self-hammering or something? i don’t get what the point of dragging out the day so far when it just gives the town time to hunt for his partner in this situation. or he could say he’s VT and hope the town is like “lol okay then” and hammers. it seems counter-intuitive to setting up a winning gamestate for his partner.

i don’t think that any convincing argument has been made by 72 fmpov to defend his actions other than saying it was an accident and us having to take that, as well as some attempts to push/scumhunt which to me feel lackluster and an effort to deflect? i guess that could be the inevitable feeling that comes with a ton of votes suddenly on you.

so @everyone: what do you think 72 is trying to accomplish right now? i think that the most obvious answer is survival but what does his partner benefit from it if he’s scum?

as i stand right now, my do not eliminate pool is currently {doctorpepper, guiltylion, walter} and my elimination pool is {72, mini, owen, italiano}.

I think town just needs my lynch to be honest. UNO declared intent, and I;ve claimed.
I don;t see enough people switching to lynch UNO today.
If I hang around I'm just going to be a distraction.

[72offsuit]

Oh sorry wow now it's my fault for you screwing up?

To quote you, if you're town you have no one to blame but

yourself

Get off your damn pity party

I didn;t say it's your fault for anything. I'm saying I didn;t enjoy playing with you

[72offsuit]

I was torn between voting for mini or yourself. I meta'ed you, and the meta dive pushed you towards being my preferred elimination at that point. I never said it was a strong case.

I'm not at all blaming you for my poor play.

I'm explaining my dip in WIM, down to you being toxic and taking away my enjoyment of this game.

[72offsuit]

Okay. If 72 flips town I will turn my sights onto two. If he flips scum then one of the two will be town in my book and the other will not change. Basically regardless of 72’s alignment I feel this person is scum.

If I was scum, then by virtue of the 2-scum setup, that means there would only be 1 other scum, therefore one of UNO or GL would have to be town.
What point are you trying to make here?

[72offsuit]

I really don't see why scum!72 wouldn't claim a PR there to try to out the PR.

It makes no sense to me as a scum move. Obviously it'd be an implausible claim, but at the very least it would force the real town PRs to CC to make sure he is lynched.

I don't think 72 is scum.

VOTE: MiniMegabyte

This is the lynch that should happen. MiniMegabyte is coasting and hasn't taken any useful/definitive stances on most of the slots in this game. I think her play makes a lot of sense as someone who is

not

partnered with 72, whereas it does make little sense as someone who

is

partnered with 72.

72 and DocPep, what are your thoughts on this?

Why Mini over Uno?

[72offsuit]

I don;t see any associatives with Mini. Literally could be scum with any player.

[72offsuit]

GL + Mini is very unlikely given GL's 218

TTJT was most likely prior to that, and the change of tack by GL towards Pii/Mini seems unlikely in a GL + Mini team.
There was decent chance of that wagon flying, given pii's lurking and the overall sentiment towards that slot.

[72offsuit]

Bus by Walter also seems unlikely.

[72offsuit]

IVD also unlikely with him having Pii/mini as 2nd most likely scum in 190

[72offsuit]

Yd declared in 386 that Mini was within PoE slots for elimination
Yd seems to have a reasonable stance on Mini throughout the game, nothing really felt out of place for me.

[72offsuit]

I guess as a starting point, UNOwen I want to get more of your thoughts on this. Are you really comfortable totally ruling out Mini as a partner based on this logic? I get where you're coming from and I've been thinking much the same way, but I think I still have hesitation in that if his partner

is

the compromise lynch and now he's perceiving that he's losing a 1v1 with DP - what if he felt the loss was inevitable if he was hammered yesterday and hence he took the first opportunity to guarantee survival for at least one more day?

If we take this hypothetical and say 72 feels the situation is desperate, I don't know why he decides to kamikaze himself instead of attempting to throw Mini under the bus - something he had already set up. We are agreed he is a strong player, even if he was under pressure do we really think he decides Mini is the better bet to win the game than he is?

I know I'm assuming the conclusion there instead of showing why the evidence supports the conclusion, but I don't know if I want to completely rule out the plausibility of 72/Mini pairing solely on the idea that 72 would have slow played it a little more in that case. You seem to be saying you are willing to do that, and that you'd chain eliminate Ydrasse and myself back to back, and I want to know if you don't have any doubts/uncertainty about that

Day 1 ended in a way that I was so sure wouldn't happen that I actually suspected JT for entertaining the possibility, so I'm aware that I need to keep an open mind. However I am confident in my logic here and I am confident it is either you or Ydrasse.

Rereading this post just gives me scum vibes ++.
Uno: 1) Referring to me as a "strong player"

while

2) Simultaneously thinking !scumMe would deliberately hammer town without getting a claim as scum

doesn;t seem congruous. Doesn;t feel as if its coming from a town mindset.


Furthermore the analysis on me+mini feels forced