Open 899 - The Pizza Kids Coalition [Game Over]

[Klick]

It's a shame, the first time I rolled Serial Killer

VOTE: DeasVail
For expressing anti-pizza viewpoints

[Klick]

Confession: the other day I had the opportunity to eat pizza and I gave it up for a chicken wrap, because I was tired of pizza.

Yes, I'm a heretic. VOTE: Dragon


Also, HEAL: Klick in the hopes he's town again and we just lick this game in 20 pages.

ya

[Klick]

HURT: Klick

o



y?

[Klick]

ok!

[Klick]

HURT: DragonEater70

[Klick]

HURT: DragonEater70

y?

To clarify I faked an SR of Klick ehen I had no read on him at all

Because I picked up on this and wanted to decide whether you were doing it because of that reason, or because you were scum unsure of how to interact with me not responding to you

[Klick]

Anything in particular speaking to you yet, DV?

[Klick]

tbh i'm scared of scum distancing in this setup.

this was actually something I was thinking too.

Was it klick/dragoneater that pinged you as a potential distance as well, or more of a general fear?

Distancing? DragonEater ended our earlier exchange with a townread on me, and my stated read on DragonEater is ambiguous atm. I don't see how you come out of it thinking it looks like distancing.

[Klick]

What I do see, however, is a page top

[Klick]

I love how you say you

used to

say "this is more likely to come from town than scum" in the past, and immediately follow it with "I think this posting is more likely to come from town than scum" (not saying this is alignment indicative, just find it funny). As a note, yeah that's an early game read, not a lategame read.

Also Klick can you help me out here? I think you should understand why I would consider a fast-paced, TvT-heavy game start to be superior to a slow and "wow everyone is so towny" game start, considering how well our last TvT-heavy game went. And this game I feel everyone is just TRing other people and trying not to step on anybody's toes (except me, Kyo, and you to a degree). Which makes it very hard to read people.

So if you can help me push this game into TvT (or even TvS) territory that'd help.

Pedit: to me, making it out like that philosophy should dictate my every thought is a "misrep" of my intentions, so that's what I call it.

Also, what do you make of DV's post being the way it is?

You've got to work with the playerlist you've got. This just isn't a group of people that are going to be at each other's throats right from the start. I'm satisfied with the slow game at the minute. It also works out with my IRL, with work starting back up.

Besides, the game is nearly won anyway even without that

[Klick]

Though tbh Ydra could in theory be scum so I urge you all not to blindly sheep me before we do some more solving and stuff

No I think Ydrasse actually is just town

[Klick]

Town

Kyouko
Elements
Ydrasse
T3
Klick
Appearance
Dragon
Implosion

Scum

^this is a rough indication of my reads right now

I want to understand what your thoughts are about Dragon atm.

[Klick]

Read on implosion is very much still in progress but there are some early things concerning me, which I will talk more on later.
I can’t pinpoint exactly what it is that I’m concerned about with Dragon but I can’t identify a strong reason to townread him, and it feels like play that could be consistent with scum trying to be in a town core. (Not that this is a logical reason for scum-reading, but it forms part of my thoughts)

Oh I missed that you already did this post

[Klick]

Yes and no

I have stopped responding atm mostly because I'm doing evening with the kids

But also I think answering your current questions would impede on my process and would prefer to play it out a bit longer while I get a more confident read on the game state

[Klick]

HEAL: Klick
HEAL: Ydrasse
HEAL: DeasVail
HEAL: DragonEater70

@ the three of you: I'm less interested in discussing everyone else, and more interested in discussing why this group is pure. We can work out an ideal fifth shortly, but I want to iron out confidence in this as a group first. I feel not certain, but fairly confident that this group is pure, and I think discussing the details of that is the best use of our thread space.

(but not right now because I'm getting ready for work)

[Klick]

@DV: Am I correct that you're trending fairly positive towards both Dragon and Ydrasse atm?

[Klick]

@implosion: Then what do you think of my post which was basically the same thing?

[Klick]

I will be answering things addressed to me later on today, but first I want to express a general complaint. This is addressed at everyone:

I've given this game a 36 hour break, and I come back to maybe a single page worth of posts, more than half of which is people saying stuff into the air (most of which if we ignore implo's posts which I haven't fully read yet, is either stating TR's or asking about TR's) and not really moving the game along. THIS is what I was getting at as being anti-town earlier, NOT "having more townreads than scumreads".

I do not like this game state at all. Elements asked me who would I think I'm wrong about if my coalition fails, and currently I have NO IDEA because none of my reads are sufficiently evolved. How can I read anyone with no ACTION? I can't, and I bet you can't either.

What I want is a dynamic gamestate, like in this game or this second game or this other game (I chose those because they had a very strong sense of "something is actually happening" in the first three pages, and rhe conversationg goes somewhere). But instead there's just people townreading each other with almost no analysis and not even pushing who they think is scum, as scum.

You might think I'm just whining here, but what I actually want is to ask you people to bring this game to life and case people (idc for which alignment you case them) and hurt/heal people and react to stuff happening so we have a dynamic game and not just a pile of reads and questions about reads.

This game is super readable
I think what I want will give you what you want anyway

[Klick]

Conflict isn't the friction that causes readable gamestates
Genuine engagement is

[Klick]

The reason you're not getting super dynamic here Dragon is because you've got players like DV and implosion as dominant players who just aren't going to be playing like that due to several factors fundamental to them

[Klick]

The reason you're not getting super dynamic here Dragon is because you've got players like DV and implosion as dominant players who just aren't going to be playing like that due to several factors fundamental to them

I don’t know what these fundamental factors are, even for me!

Laziness?

Methodical, less time to devote, has a comfortable approach to the game that takes things slower

[Klick]

Conflict-averse

[Klick]

@Ydrasse: do you have a preferred alignment?

[Klick]

Or like, one you feel more confident/comfortable with

[Klick]

@Ydrasse: do you have a preferred alignment?

atm probably town
the last time i played scum i was miserable but i was also burned out horribly

That's the vibe I had

The thing that is currently selling me on you being town is that you feel like you want to be here and are enjoying solving in a way that you wouldn't be expressing if you were scum
And I'm trying to decide whether that's a valid reason to think you're town here
I'm leaning yes?

[Klick]

@Klick: what's your current take on Elements?

i do think Ydrasse is being somewhat consistently townish.

I wish T3 would post more.

When I skimmed the Elements-town reasoning earlier it felt too gimmicky to be reliable but it's been a while since I paid it attention. I don't feel strongly on Elements either way atm.

I'll have quite a lot of time to sit and play this evening, and I can have a better look then

[Klick]

I think Ydrasse can be low WIM as either alignment
I think the high WIM expressed here is because Ydrasse is town

[Klick]

I've seen low-WIM Ydrasse-town as well

What I haven't seen is this kind of engagement from scum-Ydrasse
Might be worth a nosey through her scum meta in a bit

[Klick]

Like I said before work, I'll look at Elements when I'm sat down ready to give it more than surface thought

Which is imminently

[Klick]

Work clocked off 19 minutes ago

Time to give this my best 80%

[Klick]

off the top of my head i squinted a bit at his reason for calling me town because it felt like a potentially convenient read to have or i guess easy to make? “feels like you want to be here” is hard to rate for each person

I think this is valid and that's why I want to discuss it in more detail
I'd definitely put it closer to the 'gut' category than the 'fleshed out logic' category

[Klick]

So I'm not starting with much of a read at all on Elements. Up to this point I've mostly been reading with the lens of {town} vs. {???} and nothing Elements has done has obviously put them in the first bracket. I'll see if I can squeeze anything out of the slip argument that seems to be popular, but I didn't think much of it earlier.

[Klick]

yes and like i know that is often how you play it’s just something that sounds good and is correct but doesn’t require a lot to say
even if i like that method of reading people i also like the Meat and Potatoes of content lol

I like to avoid the meat and potatoes until I feel like I have something worthwhile enough to say as an argument, which isn't very often

[Klick]

I keep thinking this game is 7 players

there's also a part of me that wants to call this post like, really hard town for being the kind of thing scum would be very unlikely to genuinely think (because they have a scumbuddy they're interacting with/are probably more self-conscious about stuff)

and also extremely unlikely to come up with the idea of faking

I'm going to assume this sums up most people's basic reasoning for declaring Elements!town

I just... am not that compelled? The italics is what I'm not that convinced by. I agree that it splits Elements' states into {town telling the truth} and {scum faking}. But I don't really read Elements as the type of scum player who never makes post 62 for the hell of it.

What I do believe about the situation is that Elements at least has a level of awareness high enough to know that posting 62 will make people think about this kind of thing. The scum intent is obvious, but if Elements is town, I still think Elements wrote this with some amount of intent to get a reaction.

I don't feel that comfortable making an alignment judgement on the logic in this post, because I feel like it could go either way.

[Klick]

I keep thinking this game is 7 players

there's also a part of me that wants to call this post like, really hard town for being the kind of thing scum would be very unlikely to genuinely think (because they have a scumbuddy they're interacting with/are probably more self-conscious about stuff) and also extremely unlikely to come up with the idea of faking

The only read on me I like so far

@Elements: I suppose it's worth asking if what I wrote above is true and you had some amount of conscious awareness that posting 62 would get people talking about townslips?

[Klick]

I literally don't have AI thoughts on anything else Elements has posted

[Klick]

What are you TRing Elements for then

[Klick]

So the idea behind it is sort of a lack of attempted positioning?

What I want to deduce is how Elements!scum would likely approach the start of this game
Because my initial assumption is that it's not really out of Elements' range to not care that much about early positioning
But that could be wrong

I'll go have a glance at some Elements scum meta

[Klick]

I think if her reads are fake the intent is to mimic authenticity
And to see if that has merit as an idea we just need to see if that's what Elements tends to aim for when she's scum

[Klick]

viewtopic.php?sid=&f=53&t=91293&user_select%5B%5D=32224

Come join my reading club Dragon

[Klick]

Post 28 in that game stands out as similar in vibe to what you're talking about

[Klick]

Post 28
Post 35
Post 127

Frankly I think the early game matches rather well with what you're describing

[Klick]

This just makes me think Elements is scum

[Klick]

I'm satisfied that this is about what I'd expect from scum!Elements in terms of intended content and actual content
I'm now going to look back at town games and try to remember why Elements is usually a really free townread when town

[Klick]

I keep thinking this game is 7 players

there's also a part of me that wants to call this post like, really hard town for being the kind of thing scum would be very unlikely to genuinely think (because they have a scumbuddy they're interacting with/are probably more self-conscious about stuff) and also extremely unlikely to come up with the idea of faking

The only read on me I like so far

@Elements: I suppose it's worth asking if what I wrote above is true and you had some amount of conscious awareness that posting 62 would get people talking about townslips?

I went into this game from a perspective of thinking it would be unlikely we'd get a coalition win so if I wasn't in the coalition that puts me in a position to see a 1/5 and a 1/2 or a 2/5 which I think benefits town to solve. I was thinking of asking not to be in the coalition at that point I think? but then realised it was a 9p setup so that whole line of thinking was invalid.
I think my confusion came from the 7p wilson that was/is in signups

I think this is fair and probably true
But I now also think that this is a confusion that you could have as scum too
Particularly with renewed context of 'you aren't tryharding too much early on as scum' I could see you thinking this is 7p for the first few posts before you got engaged

[Klick]

viewtopic.php?t=91164

My day one often gets read as being forced or overcompensating or generally not natural, but most of the time it's just me saying whatever comes into my head without thinking before posting

I find it interesting that Elements describes her D1 as fairly NAI because I've found her very readable from early on in the last few games I've read with her in them. From what I can remember there's a noticeable self-consciousness and dip in enthusiasm/energy when she's scum. Here she just wants to play and get things going and it feels very motivated by wanting to make solvable content

I was scum in this quote but I was describing true thoughts on Elements' play

Tbh I think this reasoning is probably outdated. Elements seems lower energy in more recent games and that probably has little to do with alignment and more to do with outside factors.

Either way I don't really townread Elements atm and that's as solid as that read gets at this point in time. I think assuming scum was probably misguided as well though. Flat null.

[Klick]

There's not really much I can say against your read tbh
I could very easily be playing like this had I rolled red, I just happen to be town this time

What are your thoughts on DragonEater

[Klick]

I'm TRing her for:

T3 townish.

I thought the same things from T3's first post

the "ok" one?

That's the one

That just feels like such a weird read to fake.

elements maybe town for not focusing so much on forming a townblock.

half my posts are about towning T3?

Rebutting a townread of her but without actually using the rebut to position herself, get town cred, or even as an excuse to form a read.

Dragon were you town in that game with Keylaga?

Yep

Why?

you feel similar

This could be faked, but considering her being uncomfortable with me in the coalition earlier I feel it's a weird approach for scum to just say that and I also just vibed with this because I believe that Elements would think that I feel similar.

As a more general succinct response to this reasoning, now that I've looked at Elements' gameplay in excruciating detail: I think you're assuming a lot more effort out of scum!Elements here than scum!Elements would actually have.

[Klick]

You feel vaguely towny right now hilariously

I agree with your Dragon take

You're hesitant on Ydrasse? I want to understand that more

[Klick]

I think you want to be understood and read accurately and I don't actually think that would be your state of mind as scum

[Klick]

You feel vaguely towny right now hilariously

I agree with your Dragon take

You're hesitant on Ydrasse? I want to understand that more

viewtopic.php?t=92018

I briefly skimmed Ydrasse's ISO and don't really understand what you want me to see

[Klick]

I agree with your Dragon take

????

??????

[Klick]

I agree with your Dragon take

????

??????

Do you agree that there is no reason to TR me by play but i remind you of Mini Normal 2317? Because that is an extremely weird take if so.

No lol

I agree with the conclusion and the general direction of Elements' thinking on you

As in, early on I had an inkling of doubt that you might be deepwolfing, but I've decided that's not very likely with more analysis on my part

[Klick]

I think it's a good shot
I feel like it's possible to feel more confident on either Elements or someone else with a bit more discussion

I'd like to talk about DV!town a bit as well because that read isn't as strong as I've presented it
I think DV is town but I want to solidify it

[Klick]

I'm going to be fading in and out of discussion periodically unless I'm needed for a discussion topic in particular
I'm still basically around

[Klick]

As for my read on Klick, he feels like he's not trying to be TR'd at all (unless he is playing a game of "let's pocket Dragon and get null'd by everybody else", which if it is the case then I wish him luck with that since idk how far it will get him), and I think that makes him pretty towny.

who do you think is trying to do that then?

he hasn’t posted a lot so i struggle to see how someone can very comfortably make that call i guess. there’s a part of me that thinks he could be playing a clever wolf game based on how he treated you by like… kind of uno carding you. i don’t know how likely this is but i felt it was possible, and if he was doing something like that he’s now got someone in his court without much loss. with what looks like recent history it makes sense to me that he might want to capitalize on that when presented with the chance, etc

implo is trying very hard to be TR'd.

So… this was actually my exact thought.

I think I might have been wrong on my read of you

On Ydra: I liked that her read on me was just vibes. It also made sense to me because I think my play has been mostly pretty boring and easily could provoke the thought of “this is where I think scum would be”.

btw, i just realised my browser messes up the font that prism uses for the vcs

Just checking: Is the latest VC readable for everyone?

Most mobile browsers render a different font than the one I use, which is fine by me, but if the VC is mangled or difficult to parse, let me know and I'll switch it up.

It’s been fine for me!

Also miscellaneous thoughts:

Klick moved up in my reads a bit because of him saying that he’d been ambiguous about his read on Dragon, at a time when I think he had only really expressed a scumread there. I think this is more likely from town because scum are more likely to be hyper-aware of the “positions” they are taking on people while town are more likely to believe that because they

felt

ambiguous about someone it would come across in their posts.

On implosion, there are specific ways in which I feel he has tried to look town, but I want to give implosion a chance to be able to properly engage with the game (and also see whether the things concerning me continue) before going all in on that.

When I go through my townreads (which I have too many of, I know), the one that least holds up to scrutiny at the moment is T3. I was doubting Appearance for a while but looking back I feel like the backtracking by saying that maybe Klick/Dragon didn’t look like distancing was more likely consistent with townie lack of confidence. Still not sure though, because the T3 read in particular doesn’t feel proactive, as if they’re taking the fact that T3 will be in the coalition as a given and not questioning it, but again… could be town struggling with confidence in their reads.

This string of posts is when my read on DV shifted from 'potentially scum' to 'probably town'

[Klick]

For some background context: DV and I are rather good friends. We've played probably over a dozen games of Survivor together. We've met up IRL. Probably my best MS friend that I'm not married to. We don't keep up super often because I don't really know how to do that, but I'd like to say I know DV rather well.

I don't really have that much Mafia experience with DV though. If I get to an accurate townread on DV, it's likely going to be through the avenue of 'I believe DV genuinely believes what he's saying'.

And that's sort of the vibe I get from the above three posts I think? Particularly the last one. I feel like I'm getting genuine DV consideration.

[Klick]

My only recent interaction with DV in Mafia was in TM2023, as his teammate, and he was scum

viewtopic.php?t=90836

I'll look through this later and see if it gives any good insight into how to properly read DV. I seem to remember having thoughts on the difference between town and scum DV while this game was going on, but I'd need a serious refresher

[Klick]

DV's writing style can appear fake on the surface to some. It's the careful consideration thing I was talking about earlier

Does it feel like performative trying to show considered thought of both sides of the Appearance coin to demonstrate a thought process?

That is something DV would likely try to do as scum but it's also how DV just thinks in general

[Klick]

I think my ideal coalition right now would be me/elements/kyouko/ydrasse/(t3 or maybe klick)

I'd love to hear your reservations about DragonEater. You currently have a Heal vote on him

[Klick]

That is my theory atm but I want to hear out the alternative

[Klick]

Happy bday Elements

[Klick]

HEAL: Elements

[Klick]

I think I have 5 town
Weakest of the 5 is probably Ydrasse atp?

Would mean 2 scum in {implosion, Appearance, T3, ssbm_Kyouko}

The question now is, are there any teams in that 4 that have been playing like they're about to lose if this coalition passes

[Klick]

I don't think Appearance is playing like he's about to lose
Implying Appearance is either town, or scum with someone in coalition

[Klick]

Implosion is the player outside coalition most strongly fighting status quo
Implying implosion!scum is with someone outside coalition

If coalition does not pass, implosion's town equity goes up quite a bit

[Klick]

I struggle to get anything conclusive from T3 or Kyouko on this
I'm curious if {DragonEater, DV, Elements, Ydrasse} have thoughts on this

[Klick]

By 'sureness', do you mean the active questioning of the alternative to try and check my answer

[Klick]

HURT: Ydrasse

I think it's sensible to hold the group at {Klick, Dragon, DV, Elements} until we're on the same page or someone feels strongly about a fifth

I think your thoughts on Kyouko are sensible. I can imagine a Kyouko/implosion world where implosion is playing to disrupt the in-group and Kyouko is playing to potentially enter it

[Klick]

HEAL: klick, dragoneater, elements, appearance, deasvail

i have caught up but don’t have… a lot to say about the game, in specifics. i kind of feel like town is finding each other easily and wolves are having a hard time breaking into that sphere rather than trying to tear down someone. i guess it could mean they feel comfortable with the gamestate (which makes sense imo, a lot of the core of the coalition i just suggested seems common across multiple slots) and that the lack of hard tearing down from anywhere else is because town is on the outside of it.

i wanted to make a coalition without myself in it to see how confident i feel and the answer is ehhhh. maybe? i would probably sub out elements and/or appearance first.

I appreciate this post and think it outlines a fair course of action

I want to think about Appearance slightly more but I'm probably happy with that 5.

[Klick]

I'm having a hard time seeing

why

DV is town. I feel like I can see that he

looks

town, but I also see a lot of agreeing. Like "I thought that too" kind of posting, and I feel like that's how scum gets into the coalition the easiest.

I think that's how I'd do it at least

DV is a very agreeable person
This has been established already

[Klick]

I think by association implosion/DV is a reasonable scumteam
I can see how you read implosion play as setting up for failed coalition, but I don't know whether I'm convinced it's significantly more likely than him just being scum with T3 or Kyouko

I agree with the general logic that if implosion is town then the proposed coalition was probably a fail

But I also think you've presented plenty accurate evidence for myself!town and are paranoid about getting snowed
I'm willing to discuss the concept of DV-sxum but I don't think it's accurate

[Klick]

I think DV is town because he is talking with confidence like he has real opinions

[Klick]

also I do think that the scum strategy even if outside a potential all-town coalition would be to not rock the boat too much. It's in town's nature to become paranoid and second-guess.

Like you're putting in the extra effort into the nuance here that makes me believe you care

[Klick]

Scum!implosion likes using valid points to push an agenda

Frankly I think town!implosion tries to push his own opinion here
I feel like implosion is trying to give little away

[Klick]

I think by association implosion/DV is a reasonable scumteam
I can see how you read implosion play as setting up for failed coalition, but I don't know whether I'm convinced it's significantly more likely than him just being scum with T3 or Kyouko

I agree with the general logic that if implosion is town then the proposed coalition was probably a fail

But I also think you've presented plenty accurate evidence for myself!town and are paranoid about getting snowed
I'm willing to discuss the concept of DV-sxum but I don't think it's accurate

See, this is the kind of post that makes me want to just trust Klick, because it feels so logical and reasonable...

Except that I NEVER presented ANY evidence for Klick!Town this game (okay I did say at one point that he wasn't trying to be townread, but I also said at the same post that this could indicate he's deepwolfing and/or trying to pocket me). But also that isn't really "plenty of evidence" as Klick is putting it. My read is like 90% gut.

So, is there any actual evidence he's NOT deepwolfing? Um. Um. Not really I guess.

Also Klick, please explain why "you're willing to discuss the concept of DV scum but don't think it's accurate".

I thought it was you who went through my meta and pointed out the difference between my scum games and here

The accurate reason I'm town here is because I have high presence and interest and it shows through my posting

Could I fake it as scum? I always strive to. But I think the level of confidence and legitimate interest I've shown in my play at this point has probably passed the threshold of what I'd be able to pull off.

I think DV is town and I've already discussed why
I'm willing to talk about the alternative because I could be wrong and want to have a discussion that hones in on accuracy

[Klick]

Scum!implosion likes using valid points to push an agenda

Frankly I think town!implosion tries to push his own opinion here
I feel like implosion is trying to give little away

What agenda is he pushing?

'Don't trust the current coalition'

[Klick]

Klick, this might look extremely inconsequential but knowing my best reads often come from inconsequential looking things (for example, if implo is scum here I was able to identify it just from post 19) I'm going to have to ask anyway.

1. You never answered this. Please answer:

Confession: the other day I had the opportunity to eat pizza and I gave it up for a chicken wrap, because I was tired of pizza.

Yes, I'm a heretic. VOTE: Dragon


Also, HEAL: Klick in the hopes he's town again and we just lick this game in 20 pages.

ya

"ya" as in "ya Klick is town"?

'ya' in general approval of the ideas expressed in your post, both that I am town and that we should wreck the game

With the additional context that the true purpose of the 'ya' post was mostly to intentionally express a bare minimum response to you, after you unhealed me when I ignored post 29 the first time. I knew you were looking for engagement with me and I wanted to see what you'd do if I decided not to give it to you. I thought this might be interesting because last game, you had an interesting response to being ignored early on.

2. Can you elaborate on this more?

HURT: DragonEater70

y?

To clarify I faked an SR of Klick ehen I had no read on him at all

Because I picked up on this and wanted to decide whether you were doing it because of that reason, or because you were scum unsure of how to interact with me not responding to you

Like specifically, how did hurting me help you solve me and what was your conclusion based on this.

I thought there was decent odds that you were scum unsure of how to interact with me not responding to you
I unvoted because I thought it might make it more awkward for you and possibly prompt you to do something AI
It did, you reacted with 31 and then 33, and I thought you were likely town because your analysis of the situation felt comfortable and free-flowing

[Klick]

The above is what I'm pretty sure I thought based on looking back
It wasn't quite as calculated and methodical as is expressed in the above post
It's more, I had these ideas in the moment and decided to act on them and the above is roughly the rationale I used at the time

[Klick]

Yeah okay

I see what you mean

I think the solve is just implo/Klick or implo/DV

do u think that implo is distancing?
last time implo ended up bussing std and carrying the scumteam to a win.

It's not distancing per se, just the feeling I'd expect scum to like, TRY to win. The way Ydra voted doesn't make any sense if she's scum with implo, it's too risky (I don't really buy the argument that it's WIFOM).

And I don't really feel implo/Kyo/T3 played like a scumteam. So I feel the scum is inside the coalition, Klick and DV being the least scrutinized ones IMO.

I think you're potentially falsely assuming that the pair of scum have to have a solid unified plan
I am prone to this thinking as well
If I were assuming that then I agree that there aren't many pairs between implosion/Kyo/T3 that are highly coordinated here (and I think you potentially poached the framework for your current theory from my analysis of them earlier?)
But something I'm starting to generally wrap my head around is that sometimes one or more members of the scumteam just aren't that plugged in

More specific to this situation, I think T3 or Kyouko could just be scum who haven't gotten that engaged with this game up to this point and that fits the potential for them to be scum with implosion here
I think this is reinforced by the post implosion made earlier where he wished T3 specifically would post more

[Klick]

I see

Why are implo/Kyo partnered?

See above
I think implosion actions fit with scum trying to dismantle the coalition
I think Kyo's actions are null in this regard and neither contribute to or take away from this inference

[Klick]

From what I can remember I think Kyouko's posts up to this point fit decently well as scum with a very simplified game plan of 'I'm not that engaged, I'm going to post vague approval of the status quo with the hopes that this makes me look towny enough to get drawn into the coalition'
I think if Kyouko is scum here that's likely the thought process

I might look at her ISO in more depth later to see if that feels right more broadly

[Klick]

Kyouko you are pointing out the difference between me talking about something I already have an opinion on vs me talking about something that I've just thought about
I already have opinions on DV because I know DV well and I know he's likely to think about things in a 'I thought that too' sort of way
When I'm talking about other stuff I'm learning as I go

[Klick]

The thing is they're a mindmeld of thoughts

you had already posted in the thread

and theoretical Kyouko!scum has playing on those exact expressed thoughts as a clear route to not-losing

[Klick]

Kyouko you are pointing out the difference between me talking about something I already have an opinion on vs me talking about something that I've just thought about
I already have opinions on DV because I know DV well and I know he's likely to think about things in a 'I thought that too' sort of way
When I'm talking about other stuff I'm learning as I go

Which post of Kyo's is this in reference to?

Mostly 447, but more specifically just the idea that I'm talking differently in certain situations (like about DV) compared to others

[Klick]

I think if DV was trying to pocket people he'd be capable of something a lot more compelling than 'I also thought that thing'.

[Klick]

Meanwhile, I think your increase in vigor is indicative of seeing that you have a chance and taking it

[Klick]

At the moment my conditions for a coalition are 'not implosion or Kyouko'

[Klick]

I didn't interpret 360 as a scumread as much as a 'I don't get the townreads'
It turns into a scumread after DragonEater starts expressing suspicion there

[Klick]

From my perspective we've already mindmelded several times and I'm fairly annoyed that we've gone from likely winning to the current position off of you getting antsy

I'm also crabby about other stuff atm and that isn't helping

[Klick]

I don't think town!Kyouko is impossible but her jump onto myself/DV feels really opportunistic from where I'm sitting

[Klick]

Implosion/T3/Kyouko is where my hard PoE lies atm
I don't feel 100% about Ydrasse since she's kinda dropped off the face of the planet but we have to get 5/7

[Klick]

I'm not certain that your posting is from a scum place, Kyouko, but I think that there is a lack of thinking about the reasons behind the behaviour of mine that has bothered you, beyond the thought that "DV does thing I don't like = scum". This could be town relying on pattern recognition scumhunting, or scum trying to push through with reasoning for a scumread, I'm not sure.

This is what I'm seeing and interpreting as scum motivated
It feels like either a conscious choice or at least a particularly closed mind when it comes to the DV read

[Klick]

I do understand that this sort of thing can make the game less fun for others, and so I haven't wanted things to become too... "cliquey" (lol), but it is probably natural that I would interact with him a little differently.

The problem is that my townread on you is based on things that are inherent to knowing you well
I think you're talking like you're a jury member and not like you're about to gently slide a knife in my back
It's a comfort and confidence thing. But your posting style looks like it could be not-those-things to people with less context on you

[Klick]

I feel all muddled and I don't have much time to devote left in this phase
I will also be able to hammer stuff

[Klick]

HURT: all
HEAL: Klick, Dragoneater, Elements, DeasVail, Appearance

To know where I'm at. I'll be prepared to change things around

[Klick]

HEAL: klick, dragoneater, elements, appearance, deasvail

Lol

[Klick]

Alright Klick

I have an idea

You said your hard PoE is Kyo/T3/implo

What do you say about a coal of dragon/app/el/dv/ydra?

Then I won't have the paranoia about you and I am even going to as far as to say I will town lock you if it fails, if it's any consolation.

Pedit: no Klick is just too towny I can't resist having him in the coalition

I'd accept it though obviously I'd prefer being in it myself
What's your current thoughts on Ydrasse

[Klick]

Okay

Klick I don't want a reason to think you are town. Can you give me a reason why I should just have faith in our coalition (including DV)?

Work now sorry, can respons later

[Klick]

Ydrasse you're saying that you aren't sure who you'd remove

But it sounds like you're mostly worried about Elements?

[Klick]

Okay

Klick I don't want a reason to think you are town. Can you give me a reason why I should just have faith in our coalition (including DV)?

Work now sorry, can respons later

I can't give like a lot more reason than the individual reads I've already expressed?

It depends on what the purpose of voting the coalition is

[Klick]

It might be an appropriate time to pull out my l33t decision-making theory if no one feels super confident

[Klick]

Do we generally agree outside of implosion that DragonEater is just town?

[Klick]

HURT: all

[Klick]

Relevant reading: viewtopic.php?t=90488

There are times when it's in town's best interest to choose to abandon the majority vote - even abandon voting according to their own reads - in the interest of increasing the chances of them getting scum lims through.

In the above thread I discuss this in terms of when town is in a losing situation, but I think it also applies generally and would probably help here

The basic theory is that:

decisions made by 100% town (or higher-probability town) are more likely to be accurate than decisions made by a group of players that is not 100% town (or lower-probability town).

Applied to this situation: most of us seem to agree that DragonEater is just town; furthermore, I think DragonEater's actual decision-making on this decision is sufficiently unpredictable that taking this course of action isn't obviously biased in any particular direction. What I propose is that we delegate the coalition decision to specifically DragonEater, and sheep it disregarding personal reads. The idea being that DragonEater is more likely to hit 5-town on his own than through the influence of the rest of us in this gamestate.

[Klick]

I think that's the towniest post you've posted so far haha
That feels like a very town mindset to have about it
I disagree that it doesn't matter much but I understand what you mean by it

[Klick]

Ty for not doing that then!
I'm probably getting a relatively early night myself after the kids are asleep

PEdit: I mean I'm in favor of it
I've cut this a bit close and no one is around

[Klick]

Well maybe we assume implo/T3 is scum

And then if we're wrong about that, our coalition choice is intended to exclude the most likely scum outside of implo/T3

[Klick]

HEAL: Klick, DragonEater70, Elements, Appearance, DeasVail

I think this is 5 town. But I'll approve anything that doesn't have implo/T3

[Klick]

Like I think Ydrasse is also a reasonable choice here and I understand the why on Kyouko

[Klick]

Part of the reason I'm happy with relinquishing responsibility here is because I also feel a little weird about just declaring it {implo, T3, Kyouko} and think that could just mean I'm wrong somewhere

I don't think the somewhere is DV but who knows

[Klick]

tbh i'm scared of scum distancing in this setup.

this was actually something I was thinking too.

Was it klick/dragoneater that pinged you as a potential distance as well, or more of a general fear?

Distancing? DragonEater ended our earlier exchange with a townread on me, and my stated read on DragonEater is ambiguous atm. I don't see how you come out of it thinking it looks like distancing.

Why did you make this post Klick

Wow I sound like Dannflor. At least I think I do.

Because I was confused at how DV could have interpreted our interaction as distancing
It didn't match how I saw the situation and I thought DV could have been projecting his interpretation there as scum to try and undermine you/me when we were otherwise being pretty towny all around

[Klick]

Sorry putting kids to bed

[Klick]

If you're looking for my approval then I prefer the current option over that
But I leave it to you

[Klick]

Meh

If I had another full day or two I might have gone somewhere different but I kinda want to hammer

BUT

Maybe let's do this instead:

Kyo/app/klick/ydra/dragon?

What inspired removing Elements?

[Klick]

Is it trying to piece together why it feels like no one is fighting this status quo that hard other than you?

[Klick]

HEAL: Ydrasse, DragonEater70, Klick, Appearance, ssbm_Kyouko

[Klick]

Get some sleep Dragon

[Klick]

Alright guys did we win? I'm town

[Klick]

I'm mostly just annoyed by the game at the minute

I'd need to sit down and do proper analysis to have anything meaningful to say

Except that I'm kind of leaning implosion town at this point

Also obviously we're eliminating on-coalition.

[Klick]

Also obviously we're eliminating on-coalition.

Quick-and-dirty reasoning for anyone who isn't convinced of this:

there is either 1 or 2 scum on-coalition, and either 0 or 1 scum off-coalition. Since we don't know which it is, you can average it as 1.5 scum on-coalition and 0.5 scum off-coalition.

That means there is a 30% chance of hitting scum if we eliminate on-coalition, and a 12.5% chance of hitting scum if we eliminate off-coalition (disregarding your own alignment)

Furthermore, it's guaranteed to be an amount of useful to be eliminating in a guaranteed scum pool than to possibly be eliminating in a pool of 0 scum

[Klick]

gob
DragonEater

DeasVail
implosion
Appearance

T3
Ydrasse
ssbm_Kyouko

Is approximately where I find myself atm

[Klick]

I have considered him a little bit but I don't feel like my read there is wrong

Furthermore, DV is in the 12.5%, not the 30%

[Klick]

I mean it's really context-dependent
I think my alignment is always really obvious but it's much easier when you know yourself

I've already said that the biggest difference between myself as town and as scum is how much I genuinely care about solving the game. I always feel like I'm a lot more stilted as scum, walking on eggshells a bit. I try to emulate my relaxed town nature but I always feel like I have to do it in such a way that I won't actually attract suspicion for it. Whereas as town I have a lot less fear.

[Klick]

Right, I'm here for an hour

There are some aspects of implosion's trajectory through the day that feel like they're how he would have played the day as scum.

Hard disagree

[Klick]

Tbh a lot of people came in and started talking like they knew everything and it made me want to do something with my time other than look at the thread

[Klick]

If anyone believes in Dragon!scum and wants anyone to take Dragon!scum seriously they're going to need to present their reasoning pretty firmly to badge the current thread opinion

My reads currently have me at 2 of {Dunn, kyouko, T3}. Ydrasse/T3 feels really strange to me so I'm inclined to vote Kyouko. It'd make sense with the push at the end of D1.

If people want to advocate elsewhere they're going to need to sell it.

[Klick]

Long time no see <3
I'm intrigued

[Klick]

You are literally the opposite vibe to that don't worry about that

[Klick]

I am enjoying fire's catchup yes

[Klick]

Fire, the worry I have is that I think your current posting feels pretty towny but I also think a lot of it is influenced by a mindset where you read the game before you had an alignment, making it easier to show us a town mindset

I think a key point to define in your current analysis on DragonEater is what exactly DragonEater's range is as scum, and whether that's something he has surpassed here or not

I'd be interested in seeing you do a more extensive analysis of DragonEater's scum play and seeing what it did to influence your thoughts on the viability of Dragon!scum

[Klick]

I understand the caution with ranges in that they are variable. But I think potential growth can be accounted for while still getting something productive out of finding patterns in scum play

I'm very familiar with the 'they could fake this but I don't think they would choose to' reasoning, stuff like that is one of my favourite ways of finding town when used accurately

[Klick]

What implosion posts in 783 here is super vague and you can say this about pretty much anyone. I don't think implosion is super vague as town like this so this feels off to me. Also I want to note that I copy paste what implosion writes and make it about them to try to showcase this and Klick responds super seriously but without much explanation. My belief here is that Klick did not even read implosion's post above and did not realize I was posting the same thing as implosion, and this not reading of posts strikes me as more likely to come from mafia (regardless of implosion's alignment really)

Was this called the 'nsg tell' at some point or was that something else

I realised you posted the same thing back at implosion, I just thought when implosion said it it made sense and when you said it it didn't

[Klick]

y

[Klick]

Klick might be wolfing here.

y

that's what I thought lmao

[Klick]

y

Klick what do you think about the push on me and in particular about fireisred's narrative?

I think fire's 'narrative'/suspicion of you is genuine, because I think the root of it was developed before he replaced in

What I find interesting is fire's turn-around on you later on. I think one way or another that decision is very attached to fire's alignment.

[Klick]

I can really clearly see a town mindset from fire. It's quite annoying that fire is one of the few scum players that I think aims for what I find really towny here

[Klick]

what makes you most confident on dragon being town? it read to me like you were fairly confident fairly early on in the game

@klick did you ignore this on purpose

No, I just forgot about it

I earlier read DragonEater as a player that didn't really have the capability of aggressively faking a genuine-looking town mindset as scum
There's a LOT of confidence and comfort in his position and expressing the nuances of that position. It's also pretty much exactly what I already expect from his town game

What I'm going to try to do now is verify myself whether this seems like an accurate read based on his meta
I know you've already had a look into his meta, but I'd like my own opinion

[Klick]

while i'm looking, @dragon, what do you think the major differences are between your alignments, if any? how do you think differently? i feel like you can give a pretty good answer to this question

[Klick]

I am in a very strange mood

[Klick]

The scum PT there is a super fun read haha

[Klick]

I don't really want to lim fire today I don't think

[Klick]

No elimination has been achieved. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2024-01-20 17:45:00).[/color][/size][/font]

Oh shit I didn't quite realise that was where we were at.

[Klick]

I've gone back to read Dragon's early game here

The main thing that feels compelling to me about Dragon!town is just how much he's into his own mindset

I don't know, I don't feel like I'm being... taken for a ride? In the way the scum games looked. The purpose of Dragon's free-flowing posting when he's scum seems to definitely be to project confidence and authentic progression of thought. Here, a lot of Dragon's posting feels very upfront, like 'I think Klick is town with a caveat, I think implosion is trying too hard to look like he's solving and here's why'. There's a sort of reasonableness behind it. I can see it just being where Dragon!town's head is at in the present moment. If there's an agenda, it's right in the open and not so aggressive, and I've not seen that as Dragon's go-to in his scum games.

[Klick]

I feel like I can have an inclination to scumread active "town-looking" players, and so I'm incredibly sympathetic to the Dragon scumreads - I can see how one would think that this is Dragon-scum, but I'm not compelled that this is game represents Dragon-scum more than it represents Dragon-town, which is still a much more likely reality in my mind.

This, but @Dragon and about fireisredsir

[Klick]

I think fire is a fantastic scum player and he has totally snowed me before

He has also been blindingly obvious town before and shown it through his play

PEdit: my assumption is that that's always somewhere on the back of fire's mind as either alignment

[Klick]

Yes, I think that's where I'm landing on both of you

I mean, removed from context I suppose I don't really scumread anyone
But considering the coalition I'm at Dunn/Appearance having at least one scum. I don't feel like I have a clear way that I feel good about sorting between them. I'll probably start by looking at Appearance again and seeing if they meet the towny threshold at this point. The whole hidden alt thing just complicates getting a genuine read there. Ydrasse and Dunn are both tough nuts to crack with any reasonable certainty, except when Dunn is town and trying really hard to show it.

[Klick]

ok i am coming to the realization that i guess because there was the coalition forming and everything already, replacing in kind of felt like i was entering a game that was well into midgame and im kind of noticing that im mentally treating it that way

but actually this is still technically day 1 and still our first elimination and im probably overly stressing given that there's still a lot of time to sort things out

sorry i will try to reorient my brain to feel less like its the end of the world if we get this flip wrong and that also everyone else should be feeling that way too. im projecting too much

Relatable

[Klick]

Though I'd quite like to hit scum today because gob is in this game

[Klick]

I sorta forgot about Klick but they are pretty scummy too.

klick, de, implo, fire

what y’all think of my pool

4 town.

[Klick]

I don't really think Appearance is scum at all. Like I'm open to this being wrong but their positioning just feels a lot more like town. They're pretty distant from everything, they feel like they have no stake at all outside of the reads they've presented. I don't think they're particularly aiming to avoid the vote here either.

[Klick]

Gnight fire

[Klick]

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Klick]

I am thankful to the scum for making town unification significantly more achievable

[Klick]

I wouldn't expect implosion or T3 to bite the bullet

I am surprised DV is alive instead of gob

[Klick]

Yet again, Prism delivers awesome flavor.

I am declaring my intent to lurk in the shadows today until my reads resolidify.

Since you've dropped your background context, what do you think about the gob kill, DragonEater?

[Klick]

Your reads aren't solidified
I want to know what you think about the gob kill with that lack of read influence

[Klick]

Where did u go Dragon :[

[Klick]

Yet again, Prism delivers awesome flavor.

I am declaring my intent to lurk in the shadows today until my reads resolidify.

Since you've dropped your background context, what do you think about the gob kill, DragonEater?

I'm annoyed that Dragon asked a question about this question but then didn't give a response

[Klick]

Yet again, Prism delivers awesome flavor.

I am declaring my intent to lurk in the shadows today until my reads resolidify.

I mainly asked because I found it odd that Dragon didn't have any reaction to the gob death at all

[Klick]

Is D&D finished? No need to feel pressure to interrupt D&D to respond

I find it more concerning that you had time for your initial question but not for a short answer

[Klick]

The key part being 'had time for your initial question'

[Klick]

Your reads aren't solidified
I want to know what you think about the gob kill with that lack of read influence

I honestly think that gob was the obvious low-info kill here and tbh I think it's a bit scummy of all three of you, fireisred, and T3 to be talking about the kill as if it gives info, because again it's a freaking low-info kill.

This is far less obvious from my perspective

From my perspective, the endgame I've been worried about has been missing today, and being in 5p ELo and having to consensus with gob

Scum is someone who was not considering that as a win condition

[Klick]

D&D is finished

I have no idea how it's concerning that I would have time for a quick question but not for an answer that probably requires thought.

I think it requiring thought is more likely to come from scum than town

[Klick]

I think fire, T3, and myself had the town reaction to seeing gob dead

I think yours was suspect

[Klick]

I deflect your deflect

[Klick]

D&D is finished

I have no idea how it's concerning that I would have time for a quick question but not for an answer that probably requires thought.

I think it requiring thought is more likely to come from scum than town

Liar.

You stopped asking 'why' and have locked yourself into an opinion on how and why I'm approaching this situation the way I am

I am specifically concerned that you needed time to fabricate a sensible response to everyone having a different reaction to gob's death than you (expected)

[Klick]

I know it could be NAI but honestly it does feel like he's fake sorting me because as town he would either just let me be (because he TR's me) and sort other people,

Do you think it's unreasonable for me to be questioning your towniness at this stage

I don't exactly have many options for scum on-coalition atm

[Klick]

I can't say conclusively that he would play like this every game, but I do think what I described makes sense with his trajectory on me and how he usually plays as town.

the context is that his vote from yesterday just flipped town

and as of end of day yesterday he was leaning town on appearance, and townreading me and you

if he's town he knows that there's scum in the three of us

how do you expect him to approach to this day phase, if it isn't to sort through which of his townreads/townleans is scum?

Lmao the soul read

[Klick]

VOTE: DragonEater

[Klick]

I don't have much to say
A lot of analysis but it either doesn't reach the conclusion of 'and so Klick is scum' or is based on false reads of my personality/perspective
At best the conclusion is 'I don't understand what Klick is doing' and any harder claims than that feel unsubstantiated and lacking in seeking potential answers to the things that seem to be confusing you

[Klick]

Unvote me, Klick

y

[Klick]

while i'm looking, @dragon, what do you think the major differences are between your alignments, if any? how do you think differently? i feel like you can give a pretty good answer to this question

Did you ever actually answer this Dragon? I can't find one and it's now very relevant

I'm getting 'I am mega obvtown', but I'm not getting the why outside of what I've already thought about

[Klick]

Something just feels really off about fire as the answer.

I think I'm struggling with the idea that if Dragon/Appearance are both town then this game really should have been a win at coalition, and I've talked myself into the D1 narrative not supporting the idea that we swapped from a pass to a fail.

[Klick]

That combined with fire coming in and leaning town, and Dragon getting hypocritical and reactive

[Klick]

You're misunderstanding my actual scumread on you
I'm sure I've stated clearly by now that it had very little to do with you choosing to play DnD over answering my question and much more to do with your lack of reaction to gob's death in the first place
I apologise if you think that's what I was saying but like I'm far from an advocate of prioritising this over IRL

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

I feel like it's healthy to explore all the coalition options here

[Klick]

I think this is a grey area in which I think you could be scum wanting time to answer AND be playing DnD with your friends and both of these things could be true without conflict or ethical issue imo

It's a small piece of evidence towards a larger point which is that I am suspect of your interaction around the gob death

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

I feel like it's healthy to explore all the coalition options here

I feel that's a really weird sentence to accompany that unvote.

Didn't you vote me in the first place because you wanted to explore all coalition options here?

Partially yes

[Klick]

Why is my lack of speculation about gob's death suspect

Because I found the death strange and thought the natural town reaction would be to find the death strange
Strange deaths sometimes happen because the Mafia have a different read on the situation than the rest of the game
And so it wouldn't be strange to them, it would make plenty of sense, after all they chose it

[Klick]

No

[Klick]

Can you explain to me the progression from a massive TR on me to top SR, which according to what you have posted so far is based ONLY on my reaction to gob's death? Like does a different reaction ping you THAT MUCH that you'd completely abandon your previous read? Or were there more elements to it which you haven't expressed?

It's less 'you're my top scumread based only on the gob's death reaction' and more 'this has really pinged me and I want to explore the possibility that my townread on you is inaccurate'
I abandoned an overall opinion on you for the moment in favor of putting weight towards a new finding
If the new finding was explainable from town!Dragon and made sense, I can map that onto what I already have for town!Dragon
If the new finding was not explainable from town!Dragon or didn't make sense, I might need to reeval more generally

All evidence points to the correct conclusion looked at under the right lens
I'm taking different lenses and trying to make sense of them

[Klick]

Something just feels really off about fire as the answer.

I think I'm struggling with the idea that if Dragon/Appearance are both town then this game really should have been a win at coalition, and I've talked myself into the D1 narrative not supporting the idea that we swapped from a pass to a fail.

Remind me what is about the narrative that you believe doesn't support this? I feel like the narrative of how we actually ended up at the coalition that happened is more or less fiat of Dragon. And (if Dragon is town) then that fiat was influenced by people's opinions but it was ultimately a fiat.

Other players' (lack of) action surrounding that decision

Although I keep explicitly forgetting that kyouko was the exception to this behaviour, probably because I decided this was true when I crossed fire off as town

[Klick]

VOTE: fireisredsir

E-1 I think?

[Klick]

Hello!

I have done thinking about the probable scumteams in a fire!town world and have come to basically the same conclusion as fire has posted, that the most viable scumteam in that scenario is DragonEater/DeasVail. However, I am unconvinced currently that either of these players is actually scum.

I feel like fire's current approach to the game feels very much like it could be scum trying to suggest alternatives and the reasoning behind those alternatives in an attempt to get people to change their minds, without seeming like fire is directly arguing against his own elimination. Or fire could be town, doing this to try to have as clear a signpost for town to follow as possible upon his elimination (but then why is he saying 'probably don't sheep me'?).

I'm a bit tired of thinking about DragonEater's alignment in this game in general. Because there's a lack of clarity as to his perceived and actual scum range, and I haven't a clue what a DragonEater scum game would actually look like if he drew red here. Contrast that with feeling like I know what a fire scum game would look like - very similar to a town one, and what we're seeing currently. This description encapsulates why I am uncertain here.

I don't really think implosion is scum at this point. I've weirdly landed on this as my most certain townread.

[Klick]

And I guess they could be partnered with T3 but that would require T3/Kyo just waiying patiently to lose until I randomly let them in the coalition and then T3/fire, in the same game they eaited patiently to lose, powerwolfing and being the only two people on a wagon.

I think this mischaracterises Kyouko's play
I think Kyouko fought rather hard to change the status quo

It makes sense when arguing T3's perspective, but I don't think that's disqualifying of T3-scum in this circumstance
I think I lean fire/T3 as my overall answer

[Klick]

I ignored them mostly because I forgot about them. I can answer that last one now

I think I'm most likely to be wrong about the things that feel iffy about you. The evidence that you're just town here feels legitimate. Your explanation for not finding the gob death surprising seems real enough to be true.

I think fire scum viability is high here, and regardless I think eliminating him probably does the healthiest thing for the gamestate if we miss compared to other options

(@Dragon)

[Klick]

Basically I think assuming this round will be a miss is a pretty reasonable approach at the moment

[Klick]

I think just looking at right here and now that all three of us are taking an unintuitive approach here as scum and Appearance has the least towny approach to today in general
But that's a very Level 0 analysis
The problem is that I wouldn't expect different from specifically fire

[Klick]

From what I've observed of your scum game and heard from your description in the past, a lot of your focus seems to be on demonstrating a very realistic, in-depth thought process that makes it very difficult for people to question that your process isn't legitimate. You like putting yourself really deep into a fake thought process and being reflective about it to give it depth and authenticity.

When I think about what the differences would be between your town and scum games, my theory is that there would be a more noticeable, intentional breadcrumbing of said thought process as scum - because your primary goal would be for people to pick up on this, instead of that being a residual effect of having those genuine thoughts. And I guess something having me leaning potential scum on you is that I feel like the things that I've initially pinged town on you about have felt overt enough that they make sense to be intentional choices as scum.

I know that’s not particularly satisfying from your perspective as either alignment because it's hard to verify and it's all in theoretical. But without feeling like there's much else I can go off of to accurately identify your alignment and having townreads on the other two, this is kind of the best I've got

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

[Klick]

I'll have another look through Appearance in a couple hours

[Klick]

k

[Klick]

I'm not voting for implosion today

[Klick]

Being fine with missing today doesn't mean eliminating outside the coalition lol

[Klick]

Can you give me an ordered list of who you think is town or scum

Not one that would really mean anything at this junction

[Klick]

I didn't do a look-through of Appearance earlier but I've just done one now

I don't feel super confident but I lean pretty solidly town. The main thing I notice is that Appearance feels like they have a very independent view of the game. I think the rate and way they've formed conclusions feels very natural.

VOTE: fire

[Klick]

I'd like T3's thoughts.

Otherwise, I don't really see a case for T3 -not- being someone we eliminate before endgame, so I'm pretty satisfied with a T3 elimination today. And I agree that less discussion is better if we're broadly agreed on that.

[Klick]

Actually no, thinking on it more, I think considering the context of this specific game I'd rather have discussion today because I think we can reach 3 town with a high degree of confidence.

Would still like T3's thoughts before any of that though

[Klick]

VOTE: T3

I'm not going to wait that long for T3's thoughts