Mini Theme 2328: Death Note: Second Page. Day 3!

[Aureal]

[Aureal]

VOTE: T-Bone

Say it with me now...

I

AM

JUSTICE!!!!

[Aureal]

VOTE: Aureal

I think Enchant lied when he said flavor wasn't relevant to role

As someone who barely knows anything about Death Note the anime, I would be interested to know post game if that actually is a thing

I'm glad I managed to finish watching the anime before this started. XD

[Aureal]

Too many people in the hydra. Want them removed

VOTE: cuddletime

Hmm, maybe we can vote them individually?

[Aureal]

Ah yes, the ol' "sign up for a game themed around a well-known intellectual property and dare to mention said material" scumtell, classic.

I actually want to vote the hydra now but I need T-Bone to respond to me first.

[Aureal]

VOTE: T-Bone

Say it with me now...

I

AM

JUSTICE!!!!

Something Kira would say...LIGHT YAGAMI

Something a great detective who will risk his life to pursue and execute his nemesis would say... L

[Aureal]

Don't forget, you have to avoid killing me too or else the game will be over!

[Aureal]

How's the hydra townie? I think trying to throw shade over Rat's joke is pretty sus actually. It can be harder for scum to pick up on jokes, that really seemed tone deaf.

[Aureal]

How's the hydra townie? I think trying to throw shade over Rat's joke is pretty sus actually. It can be harder for scum to pick up on jokes, that really seemed tone deaf.

You should understand hydra dissonance lol

What does hydra dissonance have to do with anything? Am I not allowed to find something scummy unless all FOUR of them do it?

[Aureal]

How's the hydra townie? I think trying to throw shade over Rat's joke is pretty sus actually. It can be harder for scum to pick up on jokes, that really seemed tone deaf.

I fail to understand why you think I was trying to throw shade on Rat's joke just by asking them a question when I never even gave a read.

- A

VOTE: CUDDLE TIME

I don't see how complaining about RVS banter is supposed to help on finding Kira

So instead you prefer to just talk about flavor? Just wanting to talk about flavor and not solving is scummy.

- A

This isn't a read, huh? You literally called it scummy. And, one would assume, my flavor banter too.

VOTE: CUDDLE TIME

[Aureal]

How's the hydra townie? I think trying to throw shade over Rat's joke is pretty sus actually. It can be harder for scum to pick up on jokes, that really seemed tone deaf.

I fail to understand why you think I was trying to throw shade on Rat's joke just by asking them a question when I never even gave a read.

- A

VOTE: CUDDLE TIME

I don't see how complaining about RVS banter is supposed to help on finding Kira

So instead you prefer to just talk about flavor? Just wanting to talk about flavor and not solving is scummy.

- A

This isn't a read, huh? You literally called it scummy. And, one would assume, my flavor banter too.

VOTE: CUDDLE TIME

This is not a read. This was asking a question and afterwards saying why just talking about flavor for a long time is scummy. I clearly said on 43 I didn't have any reads.

- A

*head explodes*

How can you say that a behavior about which you are complaining is scummy, and then promptly claim to have no reads?!?

You're introducing a new thought here about it going on for "a long time" to walk back the thought. Do you not actually think the flavor talk was going on for a long time?

[Aureal]

Aureal's aggression kinda reads townie to me

-Black

Help, Black is trying to pocket me! That's not how this is supposed to work!

[Aureal]

Also, what do I get for using the Konami code here?

[Aureal]

This one doesn't want to like, be a dick about it by driving the point home but it just thinks trying to understand Adorable here is a futile effort and we're gonna wanna wait for the other heads to rear themselves.

And yet you're... voting with me?

[Aureal]

*head explodes*

How can you say that a behavior about which you are complaining is scummy, and then promptly claim to have no reads?!?

You're introducing a new thought here about it going on for "a long time" to walk back the thought. Do you not actually think the flavor talk was going on for a long time?

Are you for real? That post of mine was talking to RR about in general any player who just talks about flavor is a scummy playstyle. As in whenever I see a player who will just flavor talk for a long time I start to end up suspecting scums will be hiding in the flavor talk once when more hours pass by. I never thought that the flavor talk was going for a long time and I was already bored with just the short early flavor talk.

- A

If you didn't think it was going on too long, then why even bring it up? You're trying to have it like a bunch of different ways at once.

[Aureal]

VOTE: T-Bone

Say it with me now...

I

AM

JUSTICE!!!!

Something Kira would say...LIGHT YAGAMI

Something a great detective who will risk his life to pursue and execute his nemesis would say... L

Oh my god is that Light Yagami??? I'm the second Kira and I'm such a big fan UwU

Wait what do you mean I shouldn't have said that and people are watching?


How good is my Misa Amane impression?

- Dragon

Yes, do it Misa! Tell L you want a Baja Blast, and secure my position as god of the new world! Do it! Now!

[Aureal]

Aureal trying to figure Adorable out for the first time is pretty funny to watch

-Black

[Aureal]

*head explodes*

How can you say that a behavior about which you are complaining is scummy, and then promptly claim to have no reads?!?

You're introducing a new thought here about it going on for "a long time" to walk back the thought. Do you not actually think the flavor talk was going on for a long time?

Are you for real? That post of mine was talking to RR about in general any player who just talks about flavor is a scummy playstyle. As in whenever I see a player who will just flavor talk for a long time I start to end up suspecting scums will be hiding in the flavor talk once when more hours pass by. I never thought that the flavor talk was going for a long time and I was already bored with just the short early flavor talk.

- A

If you didn't think it was going on too long, then why even bring it up? You're trying to have it like a bunch of different ways at once.

Can you be more specific on bringing what up?

- A

You brought up people talking about the flavor as a negative thing. But also saying you don't think it was a negative thing. Unless it goes on too long, which you don't think it did. So looks to me you were just talking just to talk, because 'ugh let's get out of rvs fluff' commentary tends to get townpoints.

[Aureal]

aureal and black/cuddle are towny, black's townread on aureal matches my impressions.

HPE is always hard to grasp but this game it seems to be a bit on edge like nervous?

klick entered the game with a comment I dislike and I tried several times to write out the reasoning but meh maybe later

Could you please elaborate on that reasoning? I don't understand why you dislike Klick's comment, I think he's correctly predicting that there's going to be hydra dissonance with that set of players (yes, I know that's what the next few pages are gonna be about). And that, as he said, he's talking about Drew's post being a non sequitur because there hadn't been hydra dissonance

yet

.

[Aureal]

I might have found Aureal's aggression and questioning towny if it weren't for her being in the wrong at every turn. It sours me.

What on earth does that mean? What am I wrong about?

Slightly related but flavor discussion makes me itchy as I can see it being used as an avenue to communicate to Kira who their followers are. I haven't seen anything explicit yet though.

Are you kidding me, the hydra already clearly pledged their allegiance to me, the god of the new world of justice!

As many have said Klick's entrance is doodoo.

You explain this too please.

[Aureal]

Please put Cuddle Time to L-1 and I will insta-hammer no questions asked.

Before or after the grace period expires?

BTW happy scumday!

[Aureal]

How's the hydra townie? I think trying to throw shade over Rat's joke is pretty sus actually. It can be harder for scum to pick up on jokes, that really seemed tone deaf.

I don't think it's that sus. I do agree that a large focus on flavor spec/setup spec is easy for scum to do to look like they're town and contributing. Granted it's quite early to be able to tell if Rat is scum doing this, but I do think it was definitely worth pointing out.

You don't...

think

your own slot's behavior is that sus?

*sigh*

Wow I can't even make up my mind which of these wagons is better, they're both so full of sussy behavior it's crazy.

[Aureal]

@cuddles : I can't shake that your post 7 and 8 doesn't come from scum. Rest of your hydra's posting is fine.

VOTE: HIGH PRINCESS SCUMRINYS

We've been opposite alignments for 4 games in a row, don't see a reason it would change now.

Okay bye I'm going to play the marathon NewD3 now.

????

The first one totally sounds like something I would say, and I'm always town so maaaaaybe I could kinda see it being towny (but really that's probably just a personal quirk of mine). But I definitely disagree on the second, it feels somewhat pre-emptively defensive to need to announce that you're leaving to do something else.

[Aureal]

Not really saying much when the chance of there being at least one scum in any 3 names is 16/21. That's higher than 75%

Huh?

You know what, I'm not even gonna try to work out what this math is, it doesn't even matter. There's a base 1/3 chance that any of your slots is scum, but categorizing them by behavior is going to shift those odds. It's something people do pretty commonly.

[Aureal]

The big hydra is town
If you think their presence is net negative you should probably talk to and about other slots

Still not seeing it, sorry! I don't think it's a net negative or whatever and I don't care about 'hydra dissonance' (especially after actually having been in a hydra now, lol) or think they need to present a united front. Actually I might prefer it if they don't, even?? Trying to smash their individual thoughts together only seems like it'll muddle any chance of reading them on personality traits.

[Aureal]

cs357 was a townie that scum!HPE pushed, so this "defense" of saying it's just something it likes to do and comparing the two situations feels like a scumclaim more than anything else.

lol

So, this was a game at least two of you were in with HPE? Meaning HPE would expect you to easily be able to reference its alignment there?

Okay honestly I have zero idea why anyone of any alignment would do that. "Hey guys look at this game where I was scum and doing what I'm doing here, so obviously I'm not scum here!"?? It's just asking for someone to do exactly what you're doing here in calling it out.

I guess HPE just honestly feels that's something it would do regardless of alignment?

[Aureal]

For what it's worth if I was just reading dragon I'd probably have a small town lean because he engaged with my criticism instead of deflecting. I'm deciding, and I'm probably not going to decide right now, whether that's because the slot is actually town or dragon realizes how obviously scummy black is and is quickly covering up for it. I suppose that could be true regardless of their alignment. What I read as dragon's genuine attempt to engage with the game quickly turned into an uphill battle for dragon to counter everything black was posting. I'm always going to read dissonance as scummy because it's not something that serves any purpose for the town but easy to kick up the game with if you're scum. I believe scum will always do the easy things when it serves them. I think when you're a hydra you have to be held to a higher standard than an individual player because presumably you can plan out your posts in general, discuss your reads, and be helpful if you're town. It's a higher burden sure, but when the other side of that coin is easy nonsense you can do as scum I think it's a fair burden to ask a hydra slot to meet.

Note to self: never hydra in a game that has T-Bone in it

[Aureal]

When we flip town

Um

Like, after the game is over?

*confusion*

[Aureal]

So HPE, is ActionDan Kira or just the other Follower

Hmmmmmmmmm

You think HPE wouldn't call so much attention to itself if it was Kira?

[Aureal]

So HPE, is ActionDan Kira or just the other Follower

Hmmmmmmmmm

You think HPE wouldn't call so much attention to itself if it was Kira?

I think HPE is a Follower, not Kira

Yeah, I gathered you thought that. But why, then?

[Aureal]

My big question about this is why does it matter if they are follower or Kira? Even if they are follower and not Kira, voting them off is still good (just want to say this is from your point of view not mine, I don't have a read on hpe currently but I'll check after this)

Because HPE might let it slip that ActionDan is Kira

This train of thought confuses me. Clearly you think HPE has likely

already

let it slip. So I don't understand what more there would be to gain here. We're not going to get confirmation of HPE being follower or not. And you saying to all of us that you think Dan could be Kira to HPE's follower, if true surely just makes them that much more careful to try not to look like that. I don't know why you would say it if you're only just thinking it's a possibility, so this doesn't feel like a real thought that you have and that distresses me.

[Aureal]

Okay I was gonna have him as town but if he can make those kind of posts as scum, then I shouldn't.

T-Bone can you send me a random scum game of yours?

Why do I hate this post so much?

[Aureal]

My big question about this is why does it matter if they are follower or Kira? Even if they are follower and not Kira, voting them off is still good (just want to say this is from your point of view not mine, I don't have a read on hpe currently but I'll check after this)

Because HPE might let it slip that ActionDan is Kira

This train of thought confuses me. Clearly you think HPE has likely

already

let it slip. So I don't understand what more there would be to gain here. We're not going to get confirmation of HPE being follower or not. And you saying to all of us that you think Dan could be Kira to HPE's follower, if true surely just makes them that much more careful to try not to look like that. I don't know why you would say it if you're only just thinking it's a possibility, so this doesn't feel like a real thought that you have and that distresses me.

The post you quoted is mostly me trying to answer Hu Tao with as little information as possible. Because several people at this point want to extract everything they can out of my reasoning before neither HPE nor ActionDan give an adequate response.

Okay... fine...

I'm totally lost with whatever is going on here with you guys.

VOTE: ActionDan

[Aureal]

considering the amount of heat the hydra is getting for being a hydra, it's unlikely that that's kira

I don't agree with that reasoning at all, but I am starting to get something of a townread on

some

of the heads so I guess they can at least be more nullish for now.

[Aureal]

I changed my mind I think klick is town

klick, aureal, cuddle is my townpile

Wow, that was fast, wanna explain?

You weren't kidding about it being easier to look town in this setup, though. Here I am: Kira, the god of the new world, and several people are already racing to townread me. Maybe Enchant sent out too many follower PMs.

[Aureal]

considering the amount of heat the hydra is getting for being a hydra, it's unlikely that that's kira

I don't agree with that reasoning at all, but I am starting to get something of a townread on

some

of the heads so I guess they can at least be more nullish for now.

yeah okay

say you're a follower and cuddle is kira, you wouldn't go 'put it to e-1 and I'll hammer cause hydra', right? you wouldn't appeal to that being reasonable in the thread.

and we had hu tao, tbone and... fuck I forgot who else. but regardless that makes the pool of followers in a cuddle!kira world much more strict than every other slot in the game right now

Eh, okay, I see what you mean.

I guess there's something to this line of thought, but I don't think it's

significantly

less likely, there's still plenty of people not pressing them. Heck, T-Bone in particular I can somehow totally imagine saying that as a bold attempt to get people to

not

vote the hydra because it makes the wagon look really bad. And he could always just refuse to do so after the grace period if somehow people did actually run them up, he knew the hammer didn't unlock for 24 hours. Although given the rest of his posting with regard to them that might be a little harder to work around.

[Aureal]

My big question about this is why does it matter if they are follower or Kira? Even if they are follower and not Kira, voting them off is still good (just want to say this is from your point of view not mine, I don't have a read on hpe currently but I'll check after this)

Because HPE might let it slip that ActionDan is Kira

This train of thought confuses me. Clearly you think HPE has likely

already

let it slip. So I don't understand what more there would be to gain here. We're not going to get confirmation of HPE being follower or not. And you saying to all of us that you think Dan could be Kira to HPE's follower, if true surely just makes them that much more careful to try not to look like that. I don't know why you would say it if you're only just thinking it's a possibility, so this doesn't feel like a real thought that you have and that distresses me.

The post you quoted is mostly me trying to answer Hu Tao with as little information as possible. Because several people at this point want to extract everything they can out of my reasoning before neither HPE nor ActionDan give an adequate response.

Okay... fine...

I'm totally lost with whatever is going on here with you guys.

VOTE: ActionDan

You were questioning me but quickly dropped it. Kinda sus

Who are you talking to here?

[Aureal]

That post is the main reason I scumread HPE and I think it's a red herring

lol, yeah

I really don't think a follower comes in and decides "hey I'm gonna risk the game straightaway by promptly going up to Kira and obviously acting like a follower of him". Huge, huge risk and little to no benefit for it. Heck, even if nobody

else

ever notices it somehow, just tipping Kira off as to who a follower could be could make Kira act scummier and draw more attention to themself.

[Aureal]

That post is the main reason I scumread HPE and I think it's a red herring

Aureal and Drew had a similar exchange in Reunion Mafia, and were both Town there.

Obviously, neither of them are HPE, so if this is something you think is coming from it as scum specifically, it could still hold significance. But I don't think the behavior is scummy in a vacuum.

Oh yeah, that was funny. XD It actually occurred to me that last morning as we were waiting for the final night's results that Drew might've been reading that interaction as me being their traitor. Of course, this is a very different setup, so I think it might be less likely to just happen than a game where there was no reason for town to think there was a traitor-like role.

[Aureal]

That post is the main reason I scumread HPE and I think it's a red herring

lol, yeah

I really don't think a follower comes in and decides "hey I'm gonna risk the game straightaway by promptly going up to Kira and obviously acting like a follower of him". Huge, huge risk and little to no benefit for it. Heck, even if nobody

else

ever notices it somehow, just tipping Kira off as to who a follower could be could make Kira act scummier and draw more attention to themself.

No no, maybe the followers SHOULD tell us who Kira is, let them cook

Yeah, that's been my thought too so it's giving me great confusion over what Klick is doing. I don't think we ever should waste an elimination on someone we're confident is a follower, not Kira.

So that made me think about it more and now I'm not sure HPE isn't Kira either.

[Aureal]

VOTE: Aureal

She is giving me off vibes for some reason

Are you able to expand a bit? Any specific posts that seem off?

- Thomith

Thomith, I didn't want to quite your big post, but Re: my reads

My read of Dan wasn't clear, I meant he has a style(similar to Bell actually) to his posting that I find scummy, but I am seeing that just is who he is, so my snap read is scum.....but I want to make sure it isn't just a style thing.

Aureal just seems to obvTown, sometimes early and sometimes later(similar to Alianna), her posting style so far shows me signs of that, go check out pico blitz that just ended if you want to see scumAureal

Bone, so far seemed identical to me as the Blitz game that also just ended, maybe calling his reads as sometimes head scratchy wasn't exactly right, but he kinda does his own thing, which I can really appreciate(trying to not let it influence my read too much, as I am very much the same as him)

Ah, people trying to meta-read me. Somehow this keeps happening, even though I keep telling people it's a bad idea (as if it wasn't obvious).

Are you actually trying to use that silly game as some sort of baseline for what you think I'd do as scum, Drew? I never understood your insistence that I (or Alianna for that matter) have some sort of town-tell, so excuse me if I don't just take your word for it that this is a real read.

[Aureal]

I don't think we ever should waste an elimination on someone we're confident is a follower, not Kira.

This is mega sus

If we are convinced someone is a follower then we take them out. One less person to use the Real Name ability thing

Kira Followers
Knows which player is Kira, but not each other. At Night can use ability and learn Real Name of living target. If learned Real Name is different from Visible Name of target, it means they are fellow Kira Follower or Detective.

-Black

Oh right, that's a thing. I guess I didn't pay that much attention because it doesn't even really seem like a very useful thing? It's not like they can pass Kira a note saying "hey that person's got a fake name, nuke 'em". That was a major plot point in the show- Misa found out L's name with the eyes but got caught before Light could get the information from her.

I guess they could just out themself and post in the game thread? But like, that would have a 50% chance of backfiring and getting the other follower killed and then both of them are outted and that's a lot of info to try to work backwards to find Kira with. At most I could see them try to push a wagon on the target, which depending on the circumstances could be really obviously a result of a night action.

[Aureal]

You were questioning me but quickly dropped it. Kinda sus

Who are you talking to here?

You. Were you not suspect of me?

I was questioning you?? Are you seriously trying to turn 229 into some sort of gotcha? That feels incredibly bad faith- it's obviously not something about which I expect a response from you. That you felt the need to do it anyway with an obvious "ask yourself" answer and then come at me for not responding to your pointless response (and yes, I

am

asking myself ) is pretty WTF

VOTE: Hu Tao

[Aureal]

Yeah, I think a lot of how Kira faction approaches using their actions is going to depend on their thread position. Like, Kira might not even want to make nightkills I think, unless they think they've got a good bead on who the detective is early on. Would've been interesting to see how this plays out in practice the first time around but obviously it kinda went sideways right from the start. XD

[Aureal]

Just because you don't think you have a town tell, doesn't mean you don't, so despite your efforts here lol.....you are town.

Do you think I am faking my reads?

Maybe? I've certainly seen you express confident reads like this as town before, but at the same time it's not that hard to fake when you're just making a read with no reasoning, lol. I'm not really sure

why

you would at this point though so I guess I lean towards no. Even if you needing to ask if I think you're faking makes me feel like you're a little concerned about how you look or something, it's a bit weird.

[Aureal]

You were questioning me but quickly dropped it. Kinda sus

Who are you talking to here?

You. Were you not suspect of me?

I was questioning you?? Are you seriously trying to turn 229 into some sort of gotcha? That feels incredibly bad faith- it's obviously not something about which I expect a response from you. That you felt the need to do it anyway with an obvious "ask yourself" answer and then come at me for not responding to your pointless response (and yes, I

am

asking myself ) is pretty WTF

VOTE: Hu Tao

Who said anything about a gotcha? You seem overly defensive

Wow, I am totally not surprised by this response. Okay never mind, I'm surprised in that it literally does not contain the phrase 'OMGUS' but otherwise it's exactly what I expected. If you actually understood how I operate and were being genuine here you'd totally understand that I'm gonna bite back when I sense someone making a bad push at me, not wag your finger about defensiveness.

[Aureal]

Beyond that, ActionDan was a complete vibe check as someone I wasn't townreading, and I wanted to see what kind of response I'd get. I don't have anything solid to back up my read on ActionDan being Kira, it was sort of just a backwards gut read of 'if HPE is a Follower who feels about right as their Kira'.

I think both feel really awkward here compared to what I'd expect from them as town but that's 100% vibes and 0% logic. I like vibes though

Yay, I figured out what Klick was doing~

[Aureal]

VOTE: Gimli
HURT: RR

Will elaborate on this later but I wanna see if anyone else is seeing what I'm seeing first

- Dragon

The sudden turn on Klick is a little jarring, yes, and I don't agree with it. But I'm pretty sure Rat is the type of player as town who makes bold plays so I can easily see this being genuine. And I'm not entirely clear where Gimli comes in, I guess you're thinking Rat is trying to force some sort of distance between their reads here but also feeling like they're taking direction from Gimli? I can kinda see how you might think that but I've been feeling pretty good about Rat and Gimli so far, this doesn't feel like anything but a normal question to me without me trying to force your framework of suspicion upon it.

[Aureal]

I thought the push on HPE was weak, and expressed as much, but what stuck out to me was your insistence on it being a red herring, and your supposition that Action Dan was Kira based on basically nothing. I wanted to wait and see how things developed, and then they just got worse.

Your reaction to HPE claiming a shitpost seemed to indicate you thought it WAS signaling Kira, but that doesn't quite align with your red herring claim earlier. I thought perhaps you might have been a Follower either misdirecting to protect Gimli, perhaps assuming HPE was the other partner and being worried someone else would interpret that as a signal, or potentially Dan's Follower, trying to do a reverse psychology, which would explain why you never actually voted Dan.

But then Gimli's suggestion that Kira won't look scummy combined with you being absent from his PoE pool due to "investigative depth" that doesn't exist, with you yourself describing your reads as vibe-based, made all of the pieces Klick into place.

You jumped at HPE because, as Kira, you're looking for these signals, and having seen something that you think looks like a signal but directed towards someone else, you tried to push that narrative. No matter whether it lands on Gimli or Dan, it's not you. Gimli's oddities would put him as a strong Follower candidate, and then Dragon immediately jumping on me as soon as I suggested I thought you were Kira... well I think he's overplayed the hand now.

So I suppose to answer your question, Klick, what I'm looking for... is justice.

I am a little surprised you don't see the play Klick was making with the suspicion of ActionDan, but I'm pretty sure I get it now and I'm on basically the same page as Klick. Dan could well be Kira, I've got poor vibes about him too, but I think Klick was less concerned initially about whether that was actually the case than about what reactions he would get by acting like he thought it was. I'm seeing enough "investigative depth" here from Klick, I don't think it's weird Gimli would too and leave him out of his PoE. Mine was about the same.

[Aureal]

Gimli and Dan, in the event that you are actually a Follower instead.

If I'm to suppose I'm completely wrong and you're actually Town, then I'm kind of back to square one. Absent confounding evidence though, I'd be happy to just lim You > Gimli > Dan.

We're not actually gonna get flips though, so there's a good chance we wouldn't know until postgame whether Klick is town or follower.

[Aureal]

Reading Aureal's post: yes, jarring is exactly the word to describe that pivot.

- Dragon

And so was yours, lol

I'll consider your case later, my brain is breaking down at this point since I've been sitting here trying to figure out what people are thinking for way too long, it's giving me a headache and I need lunch and my initial feelings are that we're all just town getting jumpy because things feel too easy.

[Aureal]

Reading Aureal's post: yes, jarring is exactly the word to describe that pivot.

- Dragon

And so was yours, lol

I'll consider your case later, my brain is breaking down at this point since I've been sitting here trying to figure out what people are thinking for way too long, it's giving me a headache and I need lunch and my initial feelings are that we're all just town getting jumpy because things feel too easy.

Understandable, have a good lunch.

Who are the obvious scum in the scenario where the game is "too easy"? I don't really see any "obvious" scum other than HPE who I don't think is Kira.

- Dragon

I did not have a good lunch: word of advice, don't make nachos using stale chips. My stomach is not alright.

Hu Tao and Dan as well are my 'game is easy' PoE. HPE seems more likely to be a follower than Kira yeah, but I'm not ruling it out as a "hide in plain sight" attempt.

Do you think Rat is lying here when they act like flipping Gimli after Klick is fine with them?

[Aureal]

Ooof, I was thinking the same as Gimli about HPE seeming removed from things like it's trying to not get any more attention. But that gripe feels uncomfortably real.

[Aureal]

I have definitely complained like that as town when people scumread me for what feels like would be bad play as scum. It's especially obnoxious to me of course, not having even had any proper scumgames that I could even try to point them towards to supplement my argument that really, I wouldn't just be lazy and meme most of day one if I had finally gotten a red PM.

[Aureal]

I have definitely complained like that as town when people scumread me for what feels like would be bad play as scum. It's especially obnoxious to me of course, not having even had any proper scumgames that I could even try to point them towards to supplement my argument that really, I wouldn't just be lazy and meme most of day one if I had finally gotten a red PM.

I don't understand why it was called out in the first place, I think there is too much confidence floating around here so far this game

By 'it' you mean HPE; you're saying you don't understand why anyone has a scumread on it? Because I feel like there's been quite a bit of explanation from numerous people.

[Aureal]

Do you think Rat is lying here when they act like flipping Gimli after Klick is fine with them?

Well, I actually think Rat kinda HAS to lie here about that if Gimli is indeed Kira, so as not to look obvious as a follower. I will note though that I'm having some doubts on Rat's being scum because they did feel somewhat convinced of the push on Klick (though I'm aware tht there are players out there who are quite good as scum and can fake this kind of conviction). I will also note that I don't have a ton of conviction in Gimli being Kira, I am just not really sure who else to vote.

I mean, look at this:

HighPrincessErinys (2): ActionDan, Gimli
Hu Tao (1): Aureal
Aureal (1): Hu Tao
Klick (1): Radical Rat
Gimli (1): CUDDLE TIME

This VC kinda sucks tbh. I would really like to build a wagon on someone so we can start to see how people react to real pressure. In fact I'd probably be down to wagon almost anyone except Klick or Willow right now (oh hi Willow! Good that you managed to get in the game!), so that I could gather hopefully alignment-indicative reactions to those wagons.

It feels like you're really reaching for something here, and I don't like it.

If you want a wagon so much, why aren't you building one? You're vanity wagoning someone whom you admit you don't actually have much of a scumread on while there are other options you're open to who actually have votes.

[Aureal]

This game has so much information packed into 17 pages it's making my head spin. Sorry, I don't have time to detangle it right now.

However, it wouldn't hurt to give an ordered list based on feels.

From town to scum: Cuddle, Klick, Erinys, Gimli, Aureal, Tao, Dan, Rat, Drew.

Welcome! Can you explain what the feels are based on? Did you skim the whole game, read a few pages, or what?

[Aureal]

Drew out of ten Doctors agree: You should vote Klick

Wazzat you say? Vote Drew?

[Aureal]

Hi Kira, I am your loyal follower. Please do not kill me at night. Thank you.

Oh. Okay. Thanks for letting me know.

VOTE: Gimli

[Aureal]

HPE could easily be kira with aureal and maybe will o'wisp as followers

all aureal did this game wrt HPE was soft defend it

I what now? I think I was the first one giving HPE a funny look for the way it voted! The rest of y'all are just following me!

[Aureal]

If Gimli is scum he's pushing all the right town buttons
I think this is just Gimli!town

Buttons like...?

[Aureal]

Okay I read it. Why announce that? Scum would likely have tried to find out his name but now won't caus they know it reveals day 2

Are we really just all playing clueless about incognito? First Gimli pushing HPE for giving him incognito and now... whatever this is? If you literally just read up on what it is you should know it's obvious that Gimli had incognito since game start and therefore his name will be revealed day 2. What other way of obscuring his name would exist?

[Aureal]

Okay I read it. Why announce that? Scum would likely have tried to find out his name but now won't caus they know it reveals day 2

Are we really just all playing clueless about incognito? First Gimli pushing HPE for giving him incognito and now... whatever this is? If you literally just read up on what it is you should know it's obvious that Gimli had incognito since game start and therefore his name will be revealed day 2. What other way of obscuring his name would exist?

Wouldn't say Gimli pushed me for giving him Incog, he had no way of knowing it was me, but frfrfrfrfr

Well I feel like he, knowing he had been given incognito by someone else rather than it being his own randomly assigned skill, would naturally take your greeting him the way you did as a sign that you likely were the one who gave it to him. Instead he called you nervous.

[Aureal]

I still think aureal is scum here. Something feels off about her.

Can you reach deeper into this if you think you can?

I'm a gut read player. She just feels different than last time I played with her when she was town. So I have a tendency to think she's gonna be scum here

I'm never voting drew this game, probably scum.

Something cool gives me off vibes. So probably not voting them for the time being.

Aureal seems different so probably not voting them today.

Everyone else has a chance to join my town core

Try getting some new material instead of just reusing the same read?

(To avoid confusion, in that game we wanted to vote for town, not the jester team)

[Aureal]

Sorry, the applications to be my followers have already closed. Better luck next time!

[Aureal]

Adorable is perfectly understandable.

I do not agree with this. Even Adorable's own hydra partners started laughing there about, apparently, how Adorable has a reputation for being difficult to understand. Which Adorable definitely was there.

If you're going to use Meta to back this up I'd like to know if there's any actual content from Aureal that you are fond of that you can say holds up as town on its own.

Yeah Drew, are you gonna actually answer that question when it doesn't come from me??

(He won't.)

Of course after dissing Aureal 228 is solid. (but 229 is not!)

Well if you want me to elaborate a little more on 229 rather than throw out a quick 'this post pings me' response I can now that I've thought about it some. Hu's post felt flat and pointless. She says she was going to have a read on T-Bone but decided not to because someone said so. And asking for someone to link you to a scum game of theirs is basically always going to make me roll my eyes.

251 is a bit uncharitable. while I'm not fond of 229, it is just one question.

It's really not even a question so yes, it was very much uncharitable.

[Aureal]

HPE could easily be kira with aureal and maybe will o'wisp as followers

all aureal did this game wrt HPE was soft defend it

I what now? I think I was the first one giving HPE a funny look for the way it voted! The rest of y'all are just following me!

if you mean #82 that wasn't a push, it was inconsequential commentary.

28 was what I was talking about, yeah, where you voted HPE. Although looking back at that now the sequence actually doesn't seem quite as bad, I was recalling the vote and commentary about it being nervous being more in sync with it saluting you. I guess it was basically more of an RVS vote, looking at that now, and the salute came right after. Your next post, hours later, was when you said it seemed nervous, which still sounds like a poorly justified push on it to me since I feel like that response to your vote should've been giving you the impression that HPE was likely the one who gave you the incognito. I don't know where nervousness comes into it.

more important than that is, for instance, the way you soft defend HPE in #194, #198, #201, #228, then a pivot to voting actiondan with klick after suspecting his train of thought (!)

then #280, then #383, etc etc

you never come here and say 'I think HPE is towny for this and that reasoning', but you defend it from the many posters scumreading it throughout the entirety of this d1.

oh crap he's onto my strategy to look like a follower instead of Kira

I mean...

I don't even remember what I could've said that gives you the impression of so much HPE defense, but I don't even really care. I'll defend against whatever bad arguments I feel like; I can hold multiple thoughts in my head at once. Probably too many, really; it tends to lead me to indecisiveness a lot because I see too many possibilities. I'm pretty sure you're right when you say I never said HPE was towny, because I've never thought that so I wouldn't have said it. It's been one of my bigger scumreads most of this time- it wasn't until just now when it started acting offended over being scumread for what it feels would be bad scum-play that I started having doubts about whether I'd be fine flipping it today. The AtE is hitting a little close to home for me and I'm still trying to sort that out.

[Aureal]

Okay I read it. Why announce that? Scum would likely have tried to find out his name but now won't caus they know it reveals day 2

Are we really just all playing clueless about incognito? First Gimli pushing HPE for giving him incognito and now... whatever this is? If you literally just read up on what it is you should know it's obvious that Gimli had incognito since game start and therefore his name will be revealed day 2. What other way of obscuring his name would exist?

Wouldn't say Gimli pushed me for giving him Incog, he had no way of knowing it was me, but frfrfrfrfr

Well I feel like he, knowing he had been given incognito by someone else rather than it being his own randomly assigned skill, would naturally take your greeting him the way you did as a sign that you likely were the one who gave it to him. Instead he called you nervous.

you're reaching so hard with the HPE defence that you have to argue with HPE about it. I don't know where you got that I'd have to assume I was given incognito. I mean, maybe, if I was really good at picking up signs and if had read the setup with attention. maybe you'd pick it up if you were in my shoes? but also why would I think someone would post pockety to me just because they've given me incognito?

Did you... not even read the list at the start of the thread to realize that your name was just question marks? I feel like that's the sort of thing one would definitely wonder about, yeah.

...I'm not

that

much of a domineering mech-head, am I? Heck, I forgot/didn't notice a few setup details that've been brought up by people. I didn't do a deep dive trying to piece together how useful lots of things that might not even exist or be confirmable would be, but not thinking about something going on with your own person is hard for me to wrap my head around.

[Aureal]

in other news I also dislike how RR is pushing HPE because revealing incognito isn't a scummy thing

I didn't say it was scummy. It (the action) doesn't seem to make sense as any alignment here. I was just trying to understand its (the High Princess) thought process.

Really? That's not the impression I've been getting- I don't understand why this was such a big issue to you, and I understand even less if you don't even think it's alignment indicative.

[Aureal]

I'm also fine with HPE now after re-reading it

me/klick/hpe/aureal/cuddle time townbloc

both followers and kira in rr/hu tao/drew/AD/will

@klick what do you think

Wait how am I back in your townbloc?

[Aureal]

I'll try before EOD to work out interactions between the other 5 and see what fits better

I think we can just try to towncore it and flip kira today, which means getting to a agreement on a player that stayed throughout this under the radar and not getting talked to much or entertained as a potential d1 flip

last game STD was kira and had an almost flawless d1 getting very little pushes against him by just coasting and being agreeable

that's the profile we're hitting d1 with the most likelihood of flipping kira

Using STD's general play style to find Kira seems like a fools game

Wouldn't Kira want to be out there?

That's kind of a harshly worded way of putting it but I do agree that describes STD's play in general, so I wouldn't really make a general principle of it.

[Aureal]

The Kira role reminds me of a mafia traitor role who doesn't know their mafia buddies. From my experience playing with a mafia traitor in completed games, I've seen a mafia traitor being town leaned and null read and usually it's the informed scum with tmi who look scummy. Whoever is Kira looks like it could be anyone and it's the Kira Followers with tmi are the ones who will look scummy.

- A

What, that's not how traitors w-

Oh, it's Adorable

Never mind, back to ignoring stuff

[Aureal]

This game is hard. And we get no flips

This sort of post is what makes it impossible for me to read you. It drives me crazy.

And I even kinda agree with the sentiment it displays!

[Aureal]

It feels like you're really reaching for something here, and I don't like it.

If you want a wagon so much, why aren't you building one? You're vanity wagoning someone whom you admit you don't actually have much of a scumread on while there are other options you're open to who actually have votes.

In post 435, Hu Tao wrote:
Hi Kira, I am your loyal follower. Please do not kill me at night. Thank you.

Oh. Okay. Thanks for letting me know.

VOTE: Gimli

Aureal do you mind explaining the thought process behind shading me for not building a wagon and then like 2 posts later randomly joining the wagon I'm trying to build? How does that work?

- Dragon

Well YOU weren't, someone's got to

But really, are you not actually reading everything again, Dragon? You seem to be taking point for the hydra so if you're gonna be the face it's going to be even harder to figure out what to do about you if you're not even paying attention to things.

Like, I told you I'd look over your case, and I did, and the conclusion I came to was basically "I guess it's

possible

- I agree that Gimli's posts are fakeable as scum, but I don't see any particular reason to think they

are

so this feels uncomfortably like trying to grasp for some way to break up a forming townbloc."

And then, an actual two posts later, HPE told us that Gimli got the incognito from it. That's actual new information and it changed my perspective because I have a hard time grasping how the person who received incognito from someone else apparently had zero curiosity about it. I saw Gimli's name in question marks at the start of the game and went to remind myself what was up with that, saw that it was the incognito skill, and figured that must've been what Gimli rolled because I don't really see a reason to give it to someone else. But Gimli would've known he didn't roll it, someone else did. I'd be thinking "who did this and why?" and instead of thinking that way, Gimli ended up pushing HPE over its signals that it was responsible for doing that. I'd been townreading Gimli largely for being on the same page as me so that lost me.

[Aureal]

I'm also fine with HPE now after re-reading it

me/klick/hpe/aureal/cuddle time townbloc

both followers and kira in rr/hu tao/drew/AD/will

@klick what do you think

Wait how am I back in your townbloc?

in general, I am townreading you. my distrust with your posting has to do with how you're acting to and around HPE, and your responses to me, trying to make it seem like you were pushing HPE first when you did no such thing + softdefending it every chance you had, fits a world in which HPE is kira and you're a follower.

I've also been reading into some other stuff that isn't worth mentioning right now.

when I read HPE in isolation yesterday, it's giving me emotional sincerity when in real time I was reading phonyness. so for d1 I'll try to work out a solve that doesn't contain either of you.

do reach out and find me in your heart if you're town

Mmmm

I guess reconsidering HPE would reasonably have that effect, not that I really understand why you or anyone was ever townreading me in the first place.

[Aureal]

I also have other thoughts on Aureal which I've held back for a while because i was under the impression Black had a strong TR on Aureal, but since Black doesn't have a strong TR of Aureal anymore I might as well say them:

I feel Aureal's posting this game, especially early on, is EXTREMELY erratic and nervous, which is something I generally scumread. The thing is, often when I scumread Aureal for that she's town. The OTHER thing is, last game where Aureal was scum she was also like that I think. And I kinda feel like Aureal is forcing her hyper aggressive, towny tone in order to appear towny, which might be a sign of being Kira?

And I just realized that I'd been pinged early by Rat's vote on Aureal and i thought it could've been traitor signaling and now I can finally make sense of TRing Gimli and SRing Rat, if Rat is actually an Aureal follower and am I thinking too fast? Maybe. But I do think I could be on the right track and I promise this is not scum!me sowing chaos even though it's chaotic as fuck

Anyway VOTE: Aurea

- Dragon

Oh boy, more people with no understanding of how I actually work trying to meta-read me off of nothing, that's always amusing.

It's kinda convenient to turn your read on me around right when the person who was expressing a strong townread of me is gone, you have to admit.

[Aureal]

I think I've been pushed a whole lot this game so I don't know if your feelings about my slot match the material

Can you quote who pushed you except me and Aureal?

- Dragon

Can you quote more than two people who've pushed

anyone

this game, if placing an actual vote is your standard? I think the only one to get more pressure has been HPE and maaaaaybe you (but most of that was unserious threats to policy you for being a big hydra, and yeah I think you might be nervous and over-reacting to that with the way you've taken over the posting and the others have basically disappeared).

[Aureal]

Hi Freedom

Aureal is the primary reason I told Gimli 'pretty high' instead of 'very high' earlier
I think I still strongly prefer ActionDan and think he's a very strong shot at hitting Kira
But if scum aren't going to let that go through then I'm willing to explore Aureal for a bit

Wow, I trust you the most at this point and still this makes me sorta feel like you're somehow trying to reverse psychology me into not voting Dan by linking him with me like that. But that makes no sense.

I'll vote Dan, but I don't feel he's too likely to be Kira since his playstyle here just seems to be unrelenting aggression that I largely can't see any reason for. He's a good candidate to be a follower though, just trying to take down someone else other than his Kira. At this point I'm willing to consider that good enough for day one.

[Aureal]

Hu's post felt flat and pointless. She says she was going to have a read on T-Bone but decided not to because someone said so.

I am of two minds about this. On the face of it, Hu developing a town read on T-bone and then discounting it because of assessing T-bone has the same capability as scum to produce posts that earn a town read is not sensical. That's giving meta from another game equal weight to content specific to this game. That should never be the case, but if people actually believe they are equal then it is logical. This is consistent with Hu's scum read on you because of vibes or something being off or over-defensiveness. Hu has already defied and come below my expectations of what a normal town player ought to play like from our last game together. It's not a stretch to think it's happening here too.

What was our last game?

I expect he's talking about Reunion.

And this is yet another example of Dan just totally not caring what people think of him, since his risk is growing at this point and he decides it's a great time to belittle you, when it's 2 days to deadline and I think you'd be willing to vote him?? Having a hard time seeing Kira play like that.

[Aureal]

There's no one who's got even close to 7 potential followers. But there's many people with exactly 3 "non-followers". This is my "non-Kira" list:

Uh, can you elaborate on what this means? I don't understand where you're going with this at all since there's precisely 2 followers of Kira. Like, if you're ruling out Kiras because there's not even 2 people who could be their followers (which I think it's probably too early to say here regardless) then there's still a huge gulf between 3 non-followers and 7. At most the people who have the most non-followers are just somewhat less likely to be Kira.

[Aureal]

Ugh I'm really not in the right headspace for this stuff right now, but the idea of voting Klick day one still feels bad to me. Even if Dan knows who the detective is that doesn't make his scumreads correct. I don't have much reason to have confidence in them.

[Aureal]

Okay I'm heading to sleep, gonna sheep whoever out of Klick/HPE/Gimli/Aureal nakes the most sensible posts between now and when I wake up. Yes I do realize I've literally voted everyone on this list but nobody else is even making sense to me.

Anyways, goodnighto.

Oh also I will sheep Black if she remembers this game exists.

- Dragon

If I give a melancholy honk does that count as a sensible post?

Seriously, I've looked a bit more into him and I feel like Dan is probably on the level. I can't really get into his head even so though, so it's hard to know what to do here.

In the moment, I feel worst about HPE's reactions here. I don't get calling Dan obvscum at all, and HPE seems to be paying plenty of attention to the setup so I feel like it should know there's nothing particularly obvious about the truth if someone claims like Dan did. There's no certainty, but without a counter-claim I think we're in the world where we need to take it at face value. But then I also worry about

why

there's been no counter. Are all the scum tied so obviously together they don't dare counter? Or are they so confident in the gamestate that they don't need to take an unnecessary risk?

Meh, VOTE: HPE I guess.

[Aureal]

btw this one is pretty sure AD only had 3 votes on him by this point

Y'know what, I went back a bit to look closer at the outburst from HPE and saw this and it's... actually correct. I did feel like Dan claimed sliiiightly prematurely at four votes but three is... yeah, I can see why HPE is upset and suspicious.

ugh, this game

UNVOTE:

[Aureal]

So I just don't feel comfortable going along with Dan's reads at this point, given what I saw looking at his posting it feels a little too much like a ploy now. He might be on the level. But also maybe he's Kira and his followers haven't been able to get much traction defending him so he's resorting to this (which would make the replacements more likely candidates for them I guess). Or (probably even more likely) maybe he's a follower who's been planning to go out in a blazing attack and hopefully draw information on the detective, and the assistant was savvy enough to not be baited.

Given that uncertainty, I feel like the safest play here today is going to be to avoid voting his strong reads in either direction. Hopefully tomorrow we'll have some more information to work with. So I'll VOTE: Hu Tao

[Aureal]

ActionDan
HighPrincessErinys
Gimli

Radical Rat
Aureal
CUDDLETIME
Little Will o' Wisp
Freedom
Hu Tao

Is about where I'm at right this second but I'm feeling particularly unconfident

Nice completely unsuspicious readlist which I'm sure you're going to explain, right?

[Aureal]

I'm not fighting this but clearly town has lost. And once again, deserves to.

Town can't lose here, even worst-case scenario we've got another day to solve. Your words say "I'm not fighting this" but your attitude does. If Hu was your detective your words should not be that you're not fighting it, so wtf is this negativity? If you think Gimli is Kira then I think he's going down tomorrow so like, this should not be so "end of the world" like you're suggesting, we're actually in a pretty good situation.

[Aureal]

I'll check in later to vote

Why?? What is the point of delaying with mere hours left?

[Aureal]

Then stop pocketing people and start working with me to solve.

- Dragon

And this is pretty freaking rich from someone who was last seen throwing his hands up in the air in confusion and leaving things to be sorted by others. You suddenly seem desperate to do something other than what's happening.

[Aureal]

Okay but like

Why'd you vote Hu Tao?

Seriously why would you expect him NOT to vote Hu at deadline?

[Aureal]

Aureal leading the wagon on me because they know I'm the only one that sees them for the scum they are this game. I'm also sus on HPE because of that whole trying to get rid of Dan yesterday when Kira will have to do it regardless of alignment of Dan

Yup that's definitely it.

[Aureal]

Then stop pocketing people and start working with me to solve.

- Dragon

And this is pretty freaking rich from someone who was last seen throwing his hands up in the air in confusion and leaving things to be sorted by others. You suddenly seem desperate to do something other than what's happening.

I... Wha?

This has got to be the wildest accusation I've been accused of this game. Or actually since the start of the year probably.

I did throw my hands in the air BECAUSE no one I was townreading seemed remotely interested in working with me and they all just did their own thing, namely pushing other people I was townreading and providing very little rationale for that and refusing to consolidate etc.

- Dragon

Cool so you think that's not what

you've

been doing too?? I was somewhat townreading you for a while then you just went all over the place again and it's hard to trust you right now (or anyone really).

[Aureal]

if we're flipping hu tao then who are his followers?

Hu is not male.

it had to be in (rr, cuddle, wisp, freedom) at first. I'll try to see if this checks out but I'm also gonna take my few minutes of healthy non painful brain to go grocery shopping, so idk how much of that I could do.

my wagon is cleaner since the now confirmed town is pushing for it, I am not a power role so I think taking me down is reasonable. when my flip does not end the game though, you should note that klick is clear and you should follow his instincts

anyway I'll try to work something out

Yeah Cuddle really been giving me some Hu follower vibes here.

I'm not going so far as to call Dan confirmed town though, not at all.

[Aureal]

It's a really basic 'I believe his solving has been genuine'

I don't think Gimli's recent posting is oriented towards survival in the short- or long-term

Great

I'm back to TRing both of you

Now let's do something crazy and vote Willow

VOTE: Willow

- Dragon

So uh, I'm trying to catch up at lunch and you really did this huh? There was a reason I said not to go after Dan's strong reads, which T-Bone was.

Reeeeeally hoping this is a Dan ploy now

[Aureal]

Then stop pocketing people and start working with me to solve.

- Dragon

And this is pretty freaking rich from someone who was last seen throwing his hands up in the air in confusion and leaving things to be sorted by others. You suddenly seem desperate to do something other than what's happening.

I... Wha?

This has got to be the wildest accusation I've been accused of this game. Or actually since the start of the year probably.

I did throw my hands in the air BECAUSE no one I was townreading seemed remotely interested in working with me and they all just did their own thing, namely pushing other people I was townreading and providing very little rationale for that and refusing to consolidate etc.

- Dragon

Cool so you think that's not what

you've

been doing too?? I was somewhat townreading you for a while then you just went all over the place again and it's hard to trust you right now (or anyone really).

I'm really annoyed with this approach from you Aureal because I don't think you've ever been correct in scumreading me for this kind of behavior and you should know better than having this change your read of my slot

- Dragon

I don't know how the hell to read you, man. I suck at it. We had like the one good game and found each other and that's it. I realized you play erratically like you're not paying attention as town and wrote you off next time except you were scum. Why would you even expect me to read you well?

[Aureal]

LOL, thanks for making it clear that I'm not Kira, Kira

I'm just a regular innocent high school genius who does normal innocent things like go on dates and eat potato chips

...and I guess this doesn't even really clear up whether Dan's claim was real or not, ugh.

[Aureal]

I still think cuddle time is pretty townie and D1 end of day isn't something that happens with how annoyed dragon was, if dragon was kira or a follower. I take these emotions to just point to town, and am happy to clear the slot for now. the other slots I have no idea

Naw, Dragon's end of day was terrible. I think unlikely to be Kira, but very likely to be a follower.

[Aureal]

LOL, thanks for making it clear that I'm not Kira, Kira

I'm just a regular innocent high school genius who does normal innocent things like go on dates and eat potato chips

...and I guess this doesn't even really clear up whether Dan's claim was real or not, ugh.

What has made it clear that you're not Kira?

I, the god of the new world, would never bother killing someone as insignificant as Dan when I have a detective that needs killing asap.

[Aureal]

I still think cuddle time is pretty townie and D1 end of day isn't something that happens with how annoyed dragon was, if dragon was kira or a follower. I take these emotions to just point to town, and am happy to clear the slot for now. the other slots I have no idea

Naw, Dragon's end of day was terrible. I think unlikely to be Kira, but very likely to be a follower.

Who do you think is likely to be Kira considering how yesterday played out?

If Cuddle is a follower, from most likely to least likely Kira:

Klick
HPE
Rat
Freedom
Wisp
Gimli

[Aureal]

Elaborating on my reasoning:

I feel like Klick Kira case is pretty obvious from how Cuddle constantly townread Klick but this bit specifically bears note:

Gimli it wrecks my heart to push you again and potentially mislim you but it's true that if your flip doesn't end the game we can treat Klick as clear and have a much smaller PoE and also HPE is less suspect I guess.

Wanting to clear Klick by flipping Gimli doesn't make sense to me so it feels like just interjecting a thought that Dragon WANTS to happen in hopes that by saying so people will just nod and go along with it.

As far as HPE goes:

VOTE: HIGH PRINCESS SCUMRINYS

We've been opposite alignments for 4 games in a row, don't see a reason it would change now.

This could be signalling, even with as bad of an idea as I think it is in this game this reference to past games is a lot more likely to fly under the radar than something as overt as other possible Kira signalling that's been pointed out. (Interestingly, Black even notes in 277 that signalling is super risky!) There was some early heat on HPE and Cuddle joined briefly, then shifted to Hu Tao as soon as Rat voted her (and the early vote was pretty safe because of the grace period) so it could easily be an attempt to make HPE look vulnerable and thus not Kira.

Who are the obvious scum in the scenario where the game is "too easy"? I don't really see any "obvious" scum other than HPE who I don't think is Kira.

- Dragon

Again waving off HPE as scummy but not Kira.

From town to scum: Cuddle, Klick, Erinys, Gimli, Aureal, Tao, Dan, Rat, Drew.

Elaborate your reads on Erinys, Drew?

Seems like hoping someone who thinks HPE is towny will make a towncase for it and make it look better.

On Rat and Freedom, Cuddle doesn't ever really do much with Rat's slot other than prod Rat about the Klick scumread, implying Rat seems like a Gimli follower. There's basically nothing on the Drew/Freedom slot other than waving it off as not likely Kira. These are easy places for a Kira who's not being pushed to sit, so they're still viable as Cuddle's Kira, I give a nod to Rat as the more likely one since I feel like the hydra players are confident enough in their scumgame that they'd try to interact with their Kira and have a decent read there rather than just ignore the slot.

Wisp and Gimli are just... yeah, not likely at all to be Cuddle's Kira and I think it's pretty obvious why.

[Aureal]

I still think cuddle time is pretty townie and D1 end of day isn't something that happens with how annoyed dragon was, if dragon was kira or a follower. I take these emotions to just point to town, and am happy to clear the slot for now. the other slots I have no idea

Naw, Dragon's end of day was terrible. I think unlikely to be Kira, but very likely to be a follower.

I'm reading from dragon's emotions and especially his posts to me that he was legitimately annoyed I wasn't contributing much

btw how come theyre more likely follower than kira?

I'm... not going to answer that in full just yet. I will say that if Cuddle is Kira I think he was intentionally trying to come off as just a follower there, because lord did he ever. Obviously at this point now we know he wasn't a Hu Tao follower but that was the clear message I was getting from the way he was playing. So I think we might have foiled his plan to look like a follower of the wrong person by actually managing to flip the wrong person. This is how I perceive Dragon's handling of the end of day:

Dragon: ugh I'm going to sleep, Klick/HPE/Gimli/Aureal plz tell me what to do
Aureal/Klick/HPE: *vote Hu Tao*
Gimli: *barely exists due to migraines*
Dragon: OMG HOW DARE YOU!!!!!! I'M GONNA GET GIMLI!!!!!
Klick/HPE/Gimli/Aureal: what
Dragon: FINE GIMLI CAN BE TOWN! LET'S GET WILLOW! WAIT WE CAN'T, OK LET'S GET GIMLI!!!

[Aureal]

Okay, I see I forgot exactly how the death note works and that was definitely a death note kill, not an assassination, so I'll be a little more straightforward about what I was thinking here.

Dragon: ugh I'm going to sleep, Klick/HPE/Gimli/Aureal plz tell me what to do
Aureal/Klick/HPE: *vote Hu Tao*
Gimli: *barely exists due to migraines*
Dragon: OMG HOW DARE YOU!!!!!! I'M GONNA GET GIMLI!!!!!
Klick/HPE/Gimli/Aureal: what
Dragon: FINE GIMLI CAN BE TOWN! LET'S GET WILLOW! WAIT WE CAN'T, OK LET'S GET GIMLI!!!

I said I'd sheep the one who made sense

Voting Hu Tao made 0 sense

- Dragon

Why though? You can't just say "it doesn't make sense". It made plenty of sense. Dan claimed PR so obviously we don't want to push him or people who could be his detective. However, it was also quite plausible he was fake claiming, in which case he's a follower certainly pushing associations he believes to indicate the detective. So pushing in his scumreads is also bad. Especially HPE/Gimli in particular, whom I'd clocked as a particularly likely pair after I realized that the lashing out HPE was doing could be the frustration of an assistant who feels too closely tied to their detective to be safe counterclaiming. That doesn't leave a lot to work with and so I went for Hu Tao as someone I'd actually scumread.

You are the one who isn't making sense here. If we were allegedly your townreads and you wanted us to figure out what to do, what exactly is it you think we should have done? You chastised us for not working together and suspecting each other and then also for working together instead of suspecting each other! If you're actually town here you need to knock it the hell off and think about what you're doing, it's really irritating and seems like you just wanna sow chaos rather than have a train of thought.

I see your argument that Kira isn't going to be at risk on day one therefore Hu couldn't be Kira and I think that's ridiculous and defeatist. I don't believe that you believe it's impossible to flip scum on day one. You feel like you're expressing tmi here with your read of Hu not being Kira before the flip showed it. Hu was in a neutralish state where she basically could be anything, and even now I feel it's plausible she could be a follower of someone who hasn't needed defense, and there's certainly slots like that.

[Aureal]

My PoE is Gimli, Radical Rat and Freedom. I'm pretty sure Kira is among their number.

So, uh, I really would like to know how you came to this PoE.

[Aureal]

I'd like a more solid opinion on if today should be treated like it's ELo

It shouldn't exactly be- the game shouldn't end automatically even if we ended up 3:3 tomorrow because scum need to be able to identify each other to be coordinated enough to recognize that they control the game. It'd be a real shame if they just came out and admitted to being scum but oopsy, a follower is dead and it's actually 4:2.

[Aureal]

also dragon I know you're eager but considering kira didn't kill the detective you should not talk about who you think it is

I'm still pondering how true this is.

It's gonna be hard to better explain my Cuddle scumread without this talk.

[Aureal]

Most interested in Freedom rn, as far as votes might go.

Why is that?

[Aureal]

No, I'm using it to say you shouldn't be cleared for bad invalid reasons and you're getting super combative over it

Are you actually scumreading Rat? I think they're pretty likely to be town.

[Aureal]

we could just flip freedom

lets do it and then freak out when too many people wanna do it

OK, Gimli is town.

[Aureal]

No, I'm using it to say you shouldn't be cleared for bad invalid reasons and you're getting super combative over it

Are you actually scumreading Rat? I think they're pretty likely to be town.

I don't know? I feel like the reasons for Rat seeming town aren't that valid. It doesn't help that I know they're hard pushing town through. Why do you read them town here?

Well, for one, my experience with Rat is that they are a very proactive and assertive player who's willing to take a strong unothodox position and defend it. So I don't think it's scummy at all for Rat to be doing that here. I was feeling more cautious of them for a while after townreading them earlyish because I also believed in you being town so I couldn't quite find their thoughts. We've played together a couple of time and had a large amount of similar thoughts so getting out of sync was worrying me somewhat, but I'm definitely coming back around to seeing where their head is, albeit having come by a slightly different route.

[Aureal]

Ok I told my hydra pals but I have designated some time on Sunday to read this game and solve it

Kira better watch the fuck out

-Black

HI BLACK I FORGOT TO POCKET YOU THIS GAME

SORRY IF THAT AFFECTED YOUR ENJOYMENT OF IT

[Aureal]

ig this one is a little more split on Freedom than it thought because these could be player issues and not alignment issues but... idk

I'm seeing exactly what I'd expect from Freedom here, it's just how he plays.

[Aureal]

Confusion abounds

[Aureal]

Anyway Klick is still making me want to townread him so I'm looking closer at HPE, as the next most plausible Kira for Cuddle. It seems like HPE Kira with Cuddle and Drew/Freedom followers is a viable solve. In reviewing his iso, Drew did a fair bit of soft defense of HPE, and it didn't really stick out because it came after HPE got the early heat; which gives me some vibes of Drew realizing that wagon is gonna blow over anyhow so waiting to be dismissive of it is going to be more effective cover. And Hu Tao I can't rule out as HPE follower, she did engage with HPE rather critically but it also comes off rather stiff and she never tried to actually push HPE. So less likely than Drew but possible.

[Aureal]

And this is the other reason I'm feeling Rat is likely town. I saw them acting like they could get flip results yesterday and that would factor into the strength of their push on Klick. It really feels like coming from a place of genuine solving since I can now confirm they do indeed have check out.

[Aureal]

I'm not really sure, I believe I said already there seems like a few people Hu could plausibly be a follower for, but I didn't read her that in-depth yet, I mostly looked at Drew associations. It'd sure be nice to be 6:2 but it's hard to be optimistic.

[Aureal]

Wow, that was sad. Rat is pretty cool, it'd be nice for us to actually be able to play through more than 2 days together sometime. ._.

[Aureal]

How about I help you guys out and vote Kira?

VOTE: HighPrincessErinys
VOTE: CUDDLE TIME
VOTE: Gimli
VOTE: Klick
VOTE: Gob
VOTE: Aureal

See? I'm helpful!

But that's enough help from me! You guys are on your own from here. Have fun. I shall not be voting anyone else. Don't think you can possibly trick me into alignment-spewing anyone, I know full well that Calling for Time might be in play and I'm not giving you any freebie info.

[Aureal]

[Aureal]

Do you guys even freaking know what it's like to spend over an entire fucking

year

having to solve games?!?

[Aureal]

I was soooooooooo sick of rolling town, it was great to get to be frigging Light Yagami.

[Aureal]

LIGHT

FRIGGING

YAGAMI

[Aureal]

I totally deserved that after having to slug my way through a TWENTY FREAKING GAME TOWNSTREAK

[Aureal]

Like what did I ever do to deserve that?! How many mods were in on the conspiracy?!?!

[Aureal]

EVEN ALIANNA ONLY GAVE ME A TECHNICAL REPRIEVE WITH FIRE AND ICE OR IT WOULD'VE BEEN OVER 30 STRAIGHT TOWN GAMES

[Aureal]

Do you even know what that DOES to someone?!?!

[Aureal]

You guys are all so cruel, hoarding all of the red PMs that I've longed for

[Aureal]

Technically I probably had NEVER gotten a red PM until last month because even my scum games from 17 years ago probably didn't bother to give colored PMs, it was a simpler time

[Aureal]

ALSO PAGETOP

[Aureal]

HAHAHAHAHA

I STEAL THE PAGETOPS NOW

[Aureal]

My new goal is to get more posts this game than any other one

[Aureal]

I hardly ever break 100 posts per game so I didn't think it would be that hard

[Aureal]

But apparently I've got a ways to go because Reunion was such a long slog

[Aureal]

My post count really needs some padding, just look at all these people around who joined like a year ago and have 2-3 times my post count

[Aureal]

And I had like 600-700 posts when I started playing again last year I think

[Aureal]

Yeah, I spent a whole year playing regularly in 2006-2007 and only got 600ish posts across that time

[Aureal]

Totally different era

[Aureal]

Ugh, I didn't get the page all to myself

[Aureal]

How rude

[Aureal]

Maybe I'll just try again tomorrow

[Aureal]

I was soooooooooo sick of rolling town, it was great to get to be frigging Light Yagami.

I am SOOOO happy for you Aureal

- Dragon

[Aureal]

The snow glows white on the mountain tonight
Not a footprint to be seen
A kingdom of isolation
And it looks like I'm the queen
The wind is howling like this swirling storm inside
Couldn't keep it in, Heaven knows I tried

[Aureal]

Don't let them in, don't let them see
Be the good girl you always have to be
Conceal, don't feel, don't let them know
Well, now they know

[Aureal]

Let it go, let it go
Can't hold it back anymore
Let it go, let it go
Turn away and slam the door
I don't care what they're going to say
Let the storm rage on
The cold never bothered me anyway

[Aureal]

It's funny how some distance
Makes everything seem small
And the fears that once controlled me
Can't get to me at all

[Aureal]

It's time to see what I can do
To test the limits and break through
No right, no wrong, no rules for me
I'm free

[Aureal]

Let it go, let it go
I'm one with the wind and sky
Let it go, let it go
You'll never see me cry
Here I stand and here I'll stay
Let the storm rage on

[Aureal]

My power flurries through the air into the ground
My soul is spiraling in frozen fractals all around
And one thought crystallizes like an icy blast
I'm never going back, the past is in the past

[Aureal]

Let it go, let it go
And I'll rise like the break of dawn
Let it go, let it go
That perfect girl is gone
Here I stand in the light of day
Let the storm rage on
The cold never bothered me anyway

[Aureal]

You guys really should join me in voting scum you know

[Aureal]

Are you really just going to let the pesky scum get away?

[Aureal]

Fact is, I'm voting scum

[Aureal]

You should totally trust me on that, I'm very reliable

[Aureal]

Maybe you should go listen to some good music and consider my argument

[Aureal]

I've helpfully provided some music, in case you didn't notice

[Aureal]

Oh well Black isn't even paying attention, guess she's obvtown

[Aureal]

And mean. She not only hogs all the scum PMs but tries to shut me down as soon as I can finally enjoy having one? So cold.

[Aureal]

And after all the times I've contributed to your scum victories, too!

[Aureal]

Black I'm gonna just take all the scum PMs now and you can spend a year being town, okay?

[Aureal]

It's really sad how Willow tried to do a reaction test by calling me a follower but then the condemn got bungled and went through anyway before he could clarify that it wasn't real. Now all I can do is act the part because nobody will believe the truth.

[Aureal]

Black is the meanest, going away for most of the game only to come back to tell me to stop talking

[Aureal]

People should definitely listen to everything that I say, I might actually say something incriminating after all!

[Aureal]

I demand attention! This game now revolves around me!

[Aureal]

Oh? Are people actually paying attention to me finally? Fortunately I already have an image appropriate to such an occasion!

[Aureal]

Oh never mind, you're not actually paying attention to me after all, I already told you I'm not getting baited into any alignment-spewing hammers.

[Aureal]

Also ITT: Black is still the meanest, acting like I'm lurking for having to sleep after getting annoyed with me calling her lurking for having to sleep

[Aureal]

two votes on gob and a very quiet aureal

I don't like this actually. Do you really think Aureal's silence implicates gob as scum?

Was this not you?

[Aureal]

It's real cute how I'm apparently expected to be on call to bring chaos and disruption 24/7, when all that's going to happen is that I get ignored

[Aureal]

And next people will probably call me lurking for having to do work stuff instead of constantly refreshing the thread

[Aureal]

It's so nice being ignored by everyone

[Aureal]

Because it's not like I could forsee that people would argue that if I waited until someone was getting voted, and thus pointed out that I wasn't taking that risk right at the start of the day or anything.

[Aureal]

Zero alignment spewing here! You can't get anything out of my voting or lack thereof. Probably you think I'm being defensive but I assure you, having to tell people things they should already know has always been a pet peeve of mine.

[Aureal]

You know what, I take back what I said about Black being mean. She's the only one being even vaguely sensible here.

[Aureal]

Ohhhhh

I figured it out!

You're ALL Kira!

[Aureal]

I may need to dig deeper into the setup to figure out what to do about being surrounded by Kiras

[Aureal]

Honestly I'm not sure who I'm trying to convince since you are all voting for gob but yeah, I think Aureal hammers a non-Kira gob here

-Black

Well see, gob is my friend. He said so, remember?

However my consultation of the setup seems to indicate that it's okay to get rid of all you Kiras one at a time, so you've convinced me.

VOTE: gob

[Aureal]

Smashed down the light
I will not rest till It's done
Valinor's empty now
Allied the elves and men
They shall be damned

Clean my wounds
Wash away all fear
Let courage be mine
No one hears me crying

No song, no tale
Which contains all the grief
(But)
Renowned the deeds
And the victims of defeat

Sit down on your chair
And look out for your kin
With my eyes, you'll see
And with my ears, you'll hear

You troubled my day
And you've questioned my strength
(But)
Don't mess
With the master of fate
Smashed down the light
I will not rest till It's done
Valinor's empty now
Allied the elves and men
They shall be damned
I smashed down the light
And dared Valinor
I smashed down the light
Revenge will be mine
Slowly marching on
Still we're marching on

[Aureal]

There was a point during Day 1 where I think I've written a post but then deleted it (I do that a lot as town) where I said I am 80% confident that one of Aureal/Gimli was Kira. It's so funny that both of them were scum.

I was intentionally trying to look a little scummier after Gimli started getting heat. I guess it paid off, drawing investigatives to me.

[Aureal]

who wants to play midscummer with me?

I was totally going to sign up but unfortunately I didn't jump at the sign up instantly and now it's too late, as my blacklistee has signed up. So once again I'm sol on playing something cool because they're there. ._.

[Aureal]

Aureal could you explain why you targeted us btw?

I'm not sure you want me to answer that.

[Aureal]

10/10 Would get dayvigged again

I totally thought you were town until you said we were 6:2, I didn't expect my support for you to go the way it did but it worked out

[Aureal]

Honestly I'm not sure who I'm trying to convince since you are all voting for gob but yeah, I think Aureal hammers a non-Kira gob here

-Black

Well see, gob is my friend. He said so, remember?

However my consultation of the setup seems to indicate that it's okay to get rid of all you Kiras one at a time, so you've convinced me.

VOTE: gob

calling for time wasn't in the game btw lol

was trying to tell you without spewing

And yeah I figured you probably were, but I didn't see momentum shifting off of gob so I gave it a while in case I was wrong. Didn't want it to look like you said something to make me vote. The followup argument was a lot more clear and so I just went for it since you'd pretty well summed up that the odds were quite low, so maybe it would even still pass as a desperation move to protect gob.

[Aureal]

from mod PT: biancospino noticed my heavy kira slip when I was talking about 'mod announcement' if both kira followers are dead

I guess it was so blatant and weird no one else did

Yeah, I noticed too. Funny how people in the know can see these things easily.

[Aureal]

META IS TRASH

And this is what I kept trying to say about people trying to meta-read me, a player who basically doesn't have scum meta yet people want to assume illogical things anyway. And then that somehow looked like signaling to Drew? It was the continuation of months of him deciding he knows how to read me based off of nothing but my varied town play, and I've always pushed back at it because it's silly.

[Aureal]

Aureal could you explain why you targeted us btw?

I'm not sure you want me to answer that.

Now I MUST know

Well you kinda made me paranoid that you and Dan were playing 5D chess trying to bait Kira into blowing assassination on the wrong person. Dan crumbed Willow, you

asked

him about crumbs and he responded defensively. That sure made

me

go look for crumbs and figure out that he was crumbing to T-Bone. And then you tried to flashwagon the slot! That's why I was arguing you were a follower the next day, you sure looked like you could be intentionally trying to call attention to Willow being detective. If I didn't know Gimli was Kira I'd seriously have been considering that you could be a follower. I evaluated that most likely things were just as they appeared, but couldn't rule out you being detective (especially since Dan also townread you so you and him were the rest of the detective shortlist). And since I'm probably the only one paranoid enough to come up with such a theory I went with it, to cover our bases just in case. Getting the detective asap was my top priority.

[Aureal]

Yeah, things were pretty tight for a good while there. I realized there was a good chance to be outed as follower (whether voluntarily or not) and so was trying to keep somewhat distanced from Gimli, and made what I figured would look like a push on him that I believed in but wouldn't convince others. Eventually Dan started his EoD wagon on Gimli though and I knew it was time to cut bait. I find it baffling that people don't see it when my reasoning is actually contrived like it was there, yet reasoning that I would totally have as town constantly gets picked on.

GG, and thanks Enchant for modding this again!

I'm still confused why the detective gets

better

information if the assistant doesn't help than if they do. (Yeah it led town astray this time but that was very circumstantial)

[Aureal]

Yeah, things were pretty tight for a good while there. I realized there was a good chance to be outed as follower (whether voluntarily or not) and so was trying to keep somewhat distanced from Gimli, and made what I figured would look like a push on him that I believed in but wouldn't convince others. Eventually Dan started his EoD wagon on Gimli though and I knew it was time to cut bait. I find it baffling that people don't see it when my reasoning is actually contrived like it was there, yet reasoning that I would totally have as town constantly gets picked on.

GG, and thanks Enchant for modding this again!

I'm still confused why the detective gets

better

information if the assistant doesn't help than if they do. (Yeah it led town astray this time but that was very circumstantial)

It's not necessarily better information, just different, and while Assistant is alive helping the Detective does still have the option to use Stalk.

Stalk gives a guaranteed guilty, but cannot give a guaranteed clear, and is also highly unlikely to catch Kira, because if Kira's using Assassinate it's PROBABLY because they're sure on a detective.

Brainstorm gives (almost) guaranteed clears, but cannot give a guaranteed guilty, but is also more likely to be able to catch Kira, because while Kira DOES have ways to hide from it, using swap/hide is extremely situational.

I would assume Write would also be shown by Stalk, not just Assassination. Which means Stalk is basically a Disloyal Tracker and could give a high-confidence guilty on Kira themself by tracking them to a kill, with the only other option still being a follower who happened to target the same person as Kira did. Brainstorm might catch out your assistant in addition to the Kira-aligned; and while technically they could just not act rather than risk being stalked, that's not a good move at all in most any circumstances on day 1 at the least.

[Aureal]

Okay, it's in the Kira PM, I looked most everywhere else trying to figure that out. The setup info is kind of hard to put together with relevant things scattered around here and there. I nearly only submitted one night one action because my PM says I can only use one role ability per phase but that seemed redundant because I only had one "role ability", and I had to go dig around the setup more to find that "skills" can be used with "role abilities".