Mini 1203: Set's Speed Mafia - Game Over.

[Toast]

/confirm

Do we get to know how many mafia there are?

[Toast]

Doesn't it depend entirely on how active people are? If this is a speed game, I assume people would be more active than in a regular-length game. Then again, if I understand the drafting process correctly, the next 13 people in queue were put in this game regardless of whether or not they were committing to a faster game.

This is under the assumption that the reason people don't have enough time to discuss is that they aren't always in-thread. If people are always online and actively discussing and time is still the limiting factor in regular-length games, then clearly you're right.

[Toast]

If we have 13 people playing, even having just 2 mafia already gives town a <30% chance to win if we don't do better than random. I haven't played here in a long, long time - is it assumed that town does significantly better than random when deciding the numbers?

[Toast]

I hate day 1 so much..

Ranmaru: can you explain your initial vote for SensFan? Just RVS? The thing is, you posted it after Beck and Sens had been going at it for a while. Seems like you just want to hop onto SOME bandwagon, and you switched over to Beck right when it looked more like he could become a day 1 target.

I agree that Beck is acting scummy (and the fact that he's suspicious of my "town slip" only confirms it), but I'm not going to pretend I have good enough reads on anyone to vote yet.

[Toast]

"is scum" != "is scummy" ~ "leaning scummy"

A bit defensive for no reason?

[Toast]

I feel I am right, sens is a good d1 lynch

why?

[Toast]

We need to wait for more people, this is going nowhere

[Toast]

Why is that Toast?

Only 5 of the 13 people have said anything substantial, and there's already people who are convinced they found scum. I know there's not much to work off during day 1 but people are acting like their target of choice has role claimed scum

[Toast]

Why is that Toast?

Only 5 of the 13 people have said anything substantial, and there's already people who are convinced they found scum. I know there's not much to work off during day 1 but people are acting like their target of choice has role claimed scum

Speed mafia requires beleive in your reads, humming and hawwing isn't going to cut it.

The day hasn't even started yet. Until everyone confirms we're not on a time limit. I'm not going to believe in your reads when your reasons are vague and it's possible that mafia has not spoken a single word.

[Toast]

Also, time restrictions are not an excuse for recklessness

[Toast]

Toast, thoughts on Beck?

Seems scummy for sure. A bit defensive, wants to lynch fast and claims he has good reasons without explaining them. He's the only one who interpreted my one 'slip' at the start as me trying to trick people.

[Toast]

And I'm not being reckless, I'm using an effective method of scum hunting, not used nearly enough on this site.

And that is?

[Toast]

My opinion of Beck is going from bad to worse.. Even if he's not scum I kind of want him lynched because it looks like he's not very good at this game

[Toast]

Edit: and that's not to say I don't think that he's scum, because I'm starting to

[Toast]

That's a fair point. I think he's a bit scummy regardless, but again I'm not voting until the game actually starts and more people talk.

[Toast]

That's a fair point. I think he's a bit scummy regardless, but again I'm not voting until the game actually starts and more people talk.

^ that's @ran post 99

[Toast]

First off, let's get away from the skillz talk. Beck tell me games where you have caught scum. If you haven't, then drop it.

Second, no Toast. Not lynching Beck for 'not playing gud' k? No excuses. Look for scum, not weak players.

Sadly all games I've played, I can't discuss ATM.

why?

[Toast]

Beck. You never explained how Toast's 'slip' was not genuine to you, instead of it just being a null tell (Which it should be)
You claim Sensfan is scum for very bad reasons. No where do I see him trying to look like town. Humor is NOT a good tell for alignment. Also him saying you are lying is a null tell.

You say I'm sheeping, but I am merely agreeing with Sensfan's stance on you.

I took it more in line with twisted's jester comment. I didn't feel it was a genuine question, especially since he has been on site a long time.

P. Edit - the rule about on-going games is why

I've finished one newbie game and that's it (I signed up for a second game but had to leave). I know it doesn't really carry much weight to say "I'm too noob to trick you" but your point that I've been around for a while is moot

[Toast]

Someone who has been on site since 2009, regardless of how many games actually played, really should not be asking that kind of question.

I don't magically gain experience playing mafia by having my account sit idle for over a year

[Toast]

Beck, are you gonna give us links to past games on that other site?

Toast only has -40 posts.

Best I can do - http://www.glbwiki.com/index.php?title= ... afia_Forum

bullshit.

[Toast]

Beck, are you gonna give us links to past games on that other site?

Toast only has -40 posts.

Best I can do - http://www.glbwiki.com/index.php?title= ... afia_Forum

bullshit.

Excuse me?

Vote: Beck

[Toast]

Ran if you dig something worthwhile up then I'm going to unvote

[Toast]

I could if I wanted to, or saw a need to. But seeing as no one is stepping up and calling you Town, then I really don't see a need for me to waste my time convincing anyone of your guilt.

I'd very much like to be convinced one way or the other

[Toast]

DBK is right, SensFan.

Also, what do people think of Beck linking to a portal to a private mafia site and saying "that's the best I could do". Smell like BS to anyone else?
I'm still waiting on Ranmaru to report on Beck's history from the other site. I'm keeping my vote on him for the moment though.

[Toast]

@ran: addressed right there^

[Toast]

Beck: Don't worry, he's not going to get away with getting you lynched without explaining himself. At this point your "pressure" is not accomplishing anything.

[Toast]

@Beck: Let's say he isn't scum. Trust me on this. Will you vote someone else?

Second sentence is a bit off. You could have started a thought experiment without making a claim as bold as knowing that SensFan isn't mafia.

[Toast]

DBK is right, SensFan.

Also, what do people think of Beck linking to a portal to a private mafia site and saying "that's the best I could do". Smell like BS to anyone else?
I'm still waiting on Ranmaru to report on Beck's history from the other site. I'm keeping my vote on him for the moment though.

I think him saying "That's the best I can do" means that he can't link us to a game unless we sign up. Doesn't seem BS at all to me. If it were, it's not something to vote him over. It's just meta stuff. If he really was BS'ing, it'd make his IM SO GUD claim less credible.

I interpreted it as him posting a link to a private site because he doesn't actually have good games of him to show us. I was surprised he gave his username, but I guess that + what he says about knowing other people who play on both sites means my intuition was probably wrong.
With that said, I'm going to

Un-vote

because I don't want to be part of a wagon I don't feel super confident about anymore (since you can't access his games). I do very much want to know what you dig up when you get there, though.

[Toast]

Un-vote Beck

so the mod catches it

[Toast]

The odd part is he voted Beck because Beck gave the link to his meta(what people wanted), called him out on him posting a link, then unvoted later anyways when he realized there was nothing to use. You said the wagon is based on you not knowing anything about his games, but voted him because he tried to give something about his games? How did you feel super confident about Beck before you unvoted? (ISO #27 here)

I had a bad read on Beck. He was avoiding giving us his game history, and when Ran finally pressed him hard enough, he gave a link to a private forum saying "that's the best I could do". Smelled like major bullshit, and I voted in the hope that he would mess up defending himself, but the fact that he gave a username and seemed fine with Ran investigating changed my mind. I don't think he's in the clear, but I unvoted because I was going to bed and didn't want to be part of the bandwagon anymore (since my read that he was trying to lie to us ended up being unsubstantiated).

Questions?

[Toast]

The odd part is he voted Beck because Beck gave the link to his meta(what people wanted), called him out on him posting a link, then unvoted later anyways when he realized there was nothing to use. You said the wagon is based on you not knowing anything about his games, but voted him because he tried to give something about his games? How did you feel super confident about Beck before you unvoted? (ISO #27 here)

I had a bad read on Beck. He was avoiding giving us his game history, and when Ran finally pressed him hard enough, he gave a link to a private forum saying "that's the best I could do". Smelled like major bullshit, and I voted in the hope that he would mess up defending himself, but the fact that he gave a username and seemed fine with Ran investigating changed my mind. I don't think he's in the clear, but I unvoted because I was going to bed and didn't want to be part of the bandwagon anymore (since my read that he was trying to lie to us ended up being unsubstantiated).

Questions?

Vote Beck with me once the game starts, and I'll keep these guys off of your ass for you. Deal?

Nope

[Toast]

Sens, the only justification you're giving for why you're so convinced Beck is scum is a list of his posts which you claim are obvious reads. I'm not as experienced as you, and I don't see how you could possibly be so convinced.

[Toast]

Toast, why did you ask that question about how many mafia?

Because I didn't know if we got to know how many mafia were playing. If it helps convince you, the one newbie game I played described which possible setups could be used. I didn't know it was the norm to not say.

Link: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p1732704

[Toast]

The other game you played, but replaced out of. Did that one give you a list of how many?

Also was those games your first time playing mafia?

I just went and checked and it does not. I didn't stay in long enough for it to be significant, though. Still, I should have been more careful.
I play mafia live with friends occasionally. We always know the number of roles.

Also toast, is 10 minutes a long time to find the wiki link of the site I used to have when I don't have it readily available and have to google it, while responding to posts at the same time, all while doing it on an iPhone?

Type 4 posts, google something, copy the link, and post it here. All on your iPhone

If it takes you less than 10 minutes, than you can accuse me of avoiding the request to provide a link.

Jesus, 10 minute delay is avoiding?

Relax, I've already backed off.

@ran: I'll get back to you about Twisted in a minute

[Toast]

Alright, so:

No reads on TwistedSpoon. I think his reasons for his suspicions are fair but that doesn't mean he's not scum.
Beck is either crazy, stupid, or scum.
YankCane's reasons for thinking people are scum are not convincing at all.
Ranmaru has only been posting questions and has avoided substantial content. I want him to write out his opinions of everyone.
SensFan is making me really uncomfortable because it's pretty clear he's not going to get murdered day 1 unless we lynch beck and beck flips scum. This puts us in a really bad situation. Again, his reasons for chasing beck are not convincing.
No reads on Bo.

Did I miss anyone who has been active?

[Toast]

So toast, since this is your first place for forum mafia, explain how live works, I never played live mafia. Didn't know it was possible

..It works exactly the same way as forum mafia, only instead of talking via forum, you sit in a circle and talk in real life. For night actions, everyone "falls asleep" and closes their eyes, and then the host tells mafia/cops/whatever to wake up in turn and they point to who they want to kill/investigate.

[Toast]

Eh, I didn't really expect to be convincing, I'm just trying to form my opinions right now.

Form opinions != make accusations. Unless you're trying to apply pressure and doing it badly.

[Toast]

So toast, since this is your first place for forum mafia, explain how live works, I never played live mafia. Didn't know it was possible

..It works exactly the same way as forum mafia, only instead of talking via forum, you sit in a circle and talk in real life. For night actions, everyone "falls asleep" and closes their eyes, and then the host tells mafia/cops/whatever to wake up in turn and they point to who they want to kill/investigate.

So why are you leaving out you have actually played forum mafia before on another site?

I haven't.

[Toast]

I was probably lying? Give me a link to that post and I'll see if there was a good reason for it

[Toast]

Not sure if posting a link will get me mid killed but you were town cop and it was your first post ever on site

Why would you lie about your experience as town cop?

For credibility. What kind of explanation are you fishing for, anyway?

[Toast]

Not sure if posting a link will get me mid killed but you were town cop and it was your first post ever on site

Why would you lie about your experience as town cop?

For credibility. What kind of explanation are you fishing for, anyway?

So this game you don't want to look credible?

I do. But I no longer have to pretend to have a history with this game if I actually have a history with this game. You're wasting time.

[Toast]

Sens, the only justification you're giving for why you're so convinced Beck is scum is a list of his posts which you claim are obvious reads. I'm not as experienced as you, and I don't see how you could possibly be so convinced.

I'm not asking for you to understand how I'm so convinced; I'm not even asking you to be convinced yourself. I'm just asking you to vote with me. Thanks in advance.

If you had spent a third of the time and energy you have spent on screaming scum at Beck on actually explaining why you think he's scummy, you'd have my vote

[Toast]

Hold your horses, Beck.

You need to decide are you a noob or experienced?

What do you mean "I need to decide"? I have now played mafia both in forums and in live play. You tell me if this means I'm "experienced" or not.

He thought I was lying about my experience and voted me, REMEMBER THAT?

so when I question him about his exprience and how he has lied about it, you don't see that as a little bit of a CONTRADICTION?

I thought you were lying IN THIS GAME about your experiences. I was lying in A PAST GAME (and which I'm being honest about right now) about my experience. If you're of the lynch-all-liars persuasion, you should at least agree that whether or not you lied in a previous game has no relevance to this game.

[Toast]

I think it does matter if toast lied about the amount of games his played. Although it doesnt matter what happened in those games, in this game it seems he may be trying to pass himself off as a newbie, when this might not be the case. Why lie, was it simply a mistake or his he setting up a defence of im new here, incase things turn against him.

You do realize that, in this game, I have not lied about how many games I've played?

[Toast]

1. it means that you are expereinced enough to not have asked that question, which is why like I said you don't get an automatically town read like others are doing.

2. how do we know you lied in that game and are not lying now? I can't think of a single reason why you would need to lie about your experience in a game where you are town cop and when you replace in there is not a single vote on you.

the other theory could be you were telling the truth there and are lying now.

Fair points. There's nothing I can really do to prove I'm telling the truth now. On the flip side, you have no good reason to believe one way or the other.

[Toast]

The rules don't say anything about it, and if it's a mod-kill then I'm already fucked. Show me what you've got.

[Toast]

The rules don't say anything about it, and if it's a mod-kill then I'm already fucked. Show me what you've got.

This is your last chance to come clean

Rules also say mod can change the rules so I'll wait. It's pretty good

Come clean about what? I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to be guilty of.
Also, if she changes the rules to say no linking I'll doubt she'll go back and kill everyone who posted links before she changed the rules.

[Toast]

Were they within a short time period of each other? Then yes, probalby. Was one after the other ended? Then I don't believe you and want to see what you're talking about

[Toast]

It's the same day but this one was in a signup thread. Who joins a large normal for the first time anyway?

I do

Who lies in a sign up thread?

I did

I'm not coming after you right now, once game starts I'm still going after my biggest scum read, I'm just showing that there could be more to your town slip and you should not be confirmed town until somebody can actually confirm it via their role or you flip if/when you get lynched/killed.

Fair enough, but:

until somebody can actually confirm it via their role

What makes you think there are other roles at all?

[Toast]

Normal mafia setups have to have town roles, it's part of the rules of a normal setup

Forgive me for my ignorance - could you give me a link to a description of the normal rules setup?

[Toast]

Accidentally. Still doesn't change that Toast isn't confirmed town and that anyone who questions Toast shouldn't be treated as scum.

Toast is confirmed Town for the purposes of "There's not a chance in the world he's being lynched today or tomorrow."

While I appreciate how sure of my innocence you are I don't think it's good to ever say words like "confirmed" unless you're role-claiming cop. Saying "I say 'confirmed' but mean 'not really confirmed'" is not going to help people trust your judgements

[Toast]

My brain is full of fuck

I think he's joking, right?

[Toast]

Sens FFS can you give any sort of decent justification about anything you're saying?
You have made so many "IM RIGHT SHUT UP" posts that it seems like the only reason you can't take half that time to write any decent explanation is that you don't have one

[Toast]

Lynch SensFan, see if he flips Mason. If he does, we have two easy lynches. If he's not, we know he's full of shit anyway. Flaws in this plan?

[Toast]

Lynch SensFan, see if he flips Mason. If he does, we have two easy lynches. If he's not, we know he's full of shit anyway. Flaws in this plan?

Yeah, the flaw in the plan is it involves lynching your fucking Mason partner.

Vote: SensFan

To everyone else, consider two possibilities:

1) If SensFan is telling the truth, then Bo and Beck are both scum and we have easy lynches. You guys can get confirmation for this if Sens is Lynched and revealed to be Mason if you don't believe me when I say he's straight up lying about me being his fellow Mason.
2) If SensFan is lying, he's almost certainly scum, in which case we lynch scum day 1.

Can someone explain to me why there should be any good reason not to lynch Sens?

[Toast]

Maybe I don't understand roles correctly. If SensFan is Mason and he says that I'm his fellow Mason, does that mean I should have gotten a role PM that said I'm a Mason? If so, Sens is lying.

[Toast]

Maybe I don't understand roles correctly. If SensFan is Mason and he says that I'm his fellow Mason, does that mean I should have gotten a role PM that said I'm a Mason? If so, Sens is lying.

Yes, if he is mason and claiming you are mason your role pm would say mason. Other possible would be neighbor which is not the same as mason

Then I do not see how anyone could possibly consider not lynching him.

Again: I AM NOT MASON.

If you believe me: Lynch Sens. Easy.
If you don't believe me: Lynch me, I flip vanilla townie, you know Sens if full of crap.

Problems?

[Toast]

I have no fucking clue.

The point I'm trying to make is that no matter what, lynching either me or Sens will reveal to you guys who your next lynch should be. Does anyone disagree for any reason? Ran, do you not see why it is logical to lynch one of us two?

[Toast]

I have no fucking clue.

The point I'm trying to make is that no matter what, lynching either me or Sens will reveal to you guys who your next lynch should be. Does anyone disagree for any reason? Ran, do you not see why it is logical to lynch one of us two?

If we lynch Sens, he flips mason. Who do we lynch next?

Me? Because he has shit reads
You? For denying he was mason?
Somebody else?

It's not easy toast

Oh, I thought he knew you and Bo were scum the same way he "knew" I was town. If they're just reads, then you should lynch me, see that I flip vanilla, and then lynch Sens for lying.
Better?

[Toast]

What's funny is that it doesn't matter whether or not you convince anyone you're Mason. Obviously if you are lynched people will know you lied. If I am lynched, people will also know you lied.

Now is the part where I try to convince everyone to lynch me and you try your hardest to protect me. Right?

Also:

FoS: Ranmaru

[Toast]

Toast don't be dumb. We need to lynch scum, not town.

How thick can you get? If you lynch me (town), YOU WILL KNOW SENSFAN IS LYING AND HAVE A FREE SCUM LYNCH. 1 town and 1 guaranteed scum is better than any lynch based on guesswork and reads.

FoS is on you because you're refusing to acknowledge that it is even possible that SensFan is lying. If you did, you would agree that it is best to lynch one of us.

[Toast]

Toast: To confirm, you're NOT mason partners with Sensfan?

Correct. Vanilla townie here.

[Toast]

There is also the possibility that the mod messed up role PMs or that there are some roles that are not supposed to be used in normal games. Assuming Set did everything right, I can see no possible motive for what Sens is doing unless he thinks I'm an idiot.

[Toast]

At this point I don't see how Sens /isn't/ the lynch for lying about his mason partner, and the biggest person against it is Ran, who of course was attacking Beck along with Sens earlier in the game.

God fucking damnit, Toast. I don't give a rat's ass that you're going to be confirmed after I die; WE ARE NOT LYNCHING YOUR MASON BUDDY ON DAY ONE. YOU'RE ALREADY FUCKING CONFIRMED.

NO I'M NOT

Un-vote

Vote: Toast

Convince town to protect me. Please, I'm going to enjoy watching this.

[Toast]

Ram, whats done is done, but we shouldn't have to drop the situation, the first lynch will probably resolve around the Mason claim.

Also, I'm starting to believe even more that SensFan is lying and Toast isnt Mason as, if Toast was Mason then why push for his partner lynch or himself, as if they were Mason if they were lynched then it doesnt help at all. If he wanted people to no his role as Mason, toast would just say, instead of getting himself lynched for people to find out, and if he didn't want people to no his role as Mason (if he was), then toast wouldn't push for his own lynch as it would just confirm it if he was so they wouldn't be getting there. I think that Sensfan is lying about Toast being his partner.

Bingo. No other logical conclusion.

[Toast]

Or Ran, Toast, and Sens are all scum like I suspected way back when and this is just some unholy attempt at a bus/distancing/buddying or something. I'm pretty stumped by this all to be honest.

I'm starting to agree that Ran/Sens are in it together. I'm not scum, but I've already started the vote against myself to show you guys Sens is 100% scum.

[Toast]

is it at all possible to have a role that's suicidal?

I don't think you're allowed to in normal games. I'd like someone to confirm this though

[Toast]

Also:

Toast, I know I told you that we weren't claiming today no matter what.
The situation has changed. We are not lynching a goddamn Mason today, so for the love of Bahamut please stop suggesting that one of the two of us is the right lynch.

When exactly would you have told me that we weren't claiming today? Do Masons have day talk or something?

[Toast]

Ok Toast, let me introduce you to Sensfan. Guy likes to lead town, and he likes to clear people. He was clearing you, this does not make him scum. Yes, he sometimes clears scum as town when he is town (lol), but it's what he does. This why I asked if you have played with him before.

Anyway, you all should comment on why you think it = Sensfan SCUM.

Does it help them survive? Does it help preserve pr's? Does it avoid town lynches?

Also tell me the scum motivation of it.

Ok, maybe he's not scum 100%. Maybe he has this crazy strategy where he claims masons with someone who isn't mason and then expects them to let them get away with lying for the whole town.
I can think of two possible motivations:

1) He thinks I'm an idiot who is so happy to be "cleared" as town that I don't call him on his BS
2) He's doing some sort of gambit where he does something so suicidal that it could only be explained by "he's just clearing someone he's really confident is town" and then hopes nobody votes for him.

I have no idea what is going on. I know that you're the only person defending his actions.

[Toast]

Also:

" Guy likes to lead town, and he likes to clear people. He was clearing you, this does not make him scum. Yes, he sometimes clears scum as town when he is town (lol), but it's what he does. This why I asked if you have played with him before. "

Please provide links to some games where he does this.

[Toast]

First, are you sure you are not mason and just a VT?

Yes. My PM is identical to the sample VT PM.

[Toast]

How about Door number 3: I expected you to have two brain cells to rub together and realize that what I was doing only had any hope of hurting the Town if I was wrong about you, which you happen to know I wasn't, and so kept your mouth shut and let me clear you?

So not only were you 100% confident that I was town, but you were 100% confident that I would be 100% confident that YOU were town? Why on earth would you assume I would blindly trust you?

[Toast]

At

any

point in the game, you could have spoken up and then BAM, everyone would know I wasn't a Mason, and I would be fair game to be lynched.

What incentive do I have to believe AT ALL in the first place? The fact that you "know" I'm town?

[Toast]

add that to the fact that YOU JUST LIED TO BEING A MASON AND ADMITTED IT.

I still want to know the motive. Why would he think I'd play along?

[Toast]

add that to the fact that YOU JUST LIED TO BEING A MASON AND ADMITTED IT.

I still want to know the motive. Why would he think I'd play along?

regardless of alignment, he was trying to get support for my lynch.

By lying and hoping I'd trust his judgement, even though I had repeatedly told him I want to hear his reasoning before I'd consider voting for you? That seems really dumb. There has to be some motive we're missing, nobody is that bad.

[Toast]

Nobody thought I was scum. At worst, Beck was pressuring me really hard by asking me questions about my history, and Yank just said that it's silly to assume one way or the other.

Again, I see two options:
1) You're scum
2) You're deluded into thinking that other people respect your judgement so much that they'd play along with your badly-done gambit EVEN THOUGH you repeatedly refused to give me any justification for how you were so sure about Beck.

[Toast]

I don't trust people who lie. he lied about his experience. He admitted to it

I haven't lied in this game. Not trusting people who have lied in past, unrelated situations is a good way to live life but a bad way to play mafia.

[Toast]

Sens would have to be pants on head for a fake mason claim with NOT a partner. This leads to the only caveat I'll double check later: how many posts did Toast have AFTER sens claimed BEFORE he called it out.

Why on earth would he make a fake mason claim and claiming that I'm his partner knowing full well that I do not trust his decision making? That's what I'm confused about. I had no reason to play along with him and he knew it.

[Toast]

Regardless of whether or not Sens is scum, his mason claim was bad play, simple. I'll back off on the scum accusations (it makes more sense to assume unusual town play than stupidly risky scum play), but I still want an explanation for why on he thought I would go along with it.

[Toast]

Regardless of whether or not Sens is scum, his mason claim was bad play, simple. I'll back off on the scum accusations (it makes more sense to assume unusual town play than stupidly risky scum play), but I still want an explanation for why on he thought I would go along with it.

You're Town. I know you're Town. You know you're Town. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows you're Town. So when Beck asked me "How do you know he's Town? Is it when he made a massive townslip that he's not capable of faking?" I told him I was Masons with you. If you would have shut up, then you would have been confirmed Town for the rest of the game. Then, in 2 or 3 Days, if you still think I'm Scum, you point out I lied and get me lynched.

I'm more worried about you being scum than I am about Beck leading a lynch against me. You should have known this. I told you over and over how I don't believe what you're saying and how I want you to explain your reasoning. For example (#308):

"Sens FFS can you give any sort of decent justification about anything you're saying?
You have made so many "IM RIGHT SHUT UP" posts that it seems like the only reason you can't take half that time to write any decent explanation is that you don't have one"

..which you ignored. Why on earth did you think I would support your fake claim?

[Toast]

Gee, I don't know. The fact that literally the only way my claim could possibly hurt the Town is if you were Scum?

Or if

you

were scum

I've already explained it to you, literally at any point in the game you could have claimed and put suspicion on me, and in the meantime you would have had a free ride. Where's the Scum motivation in that?

What if there actually are masons? What if the cop investigates one of us? Claiming with you would be suicide.

The scum motivation is that a townie could vouch for you and give you protection, with the added bonus that after getting busted, I would get fucked for claiming with you. No way.

[Toast]

DBK, re-read both Ran's and rblinker's isos and tell me Ran is not more scummy than rblinker.

[Toast]

@Toast, I did read both ISOs before making my post, but I'll read them again just for you...

...

Yep. I still feel the same.

Interesting. This will be worth discussing tomorrow, I'm way too sleepy to try to scrutinize both right now.

[Toast]

I will unvote SensFan because I do feel it was in the heat of the moment, late at night and just following all the Mason stuff. His play was terrible, there was no need for the false claiming, the lying, it didn't achieve him anything, and it defiantly didn't help the town. As town there is no need to lie and false claim especially in pre-game. I will keep my suspicions about him, but I'll take off my vote as it is pre-game, people no where i stand with him and it doesn't account for anything right now.

Like I said earlier, the scum motivation for his play makes more sense to me than the town motivation.

[Toast]

Every post you make without explaining what the fuck you are thinking is another nail in your coffin

[Toast]

Oh, of course. I forgot that sarcastically claiming Mason in the pregame was fucking "proof" of being Scum.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proof

Now it was sarcasm? I thought you were actually trying?

Guys, read SensFan's iso and tell me he's not up to something.

Also:

I've already explained it to you, literally at any point in the game you could have claimed and put suspicion on me, and in the meantime you would have had a free ride. Where's the Scum motivation in that?

What if there actually are masons? What if the cop investigates one of us? Claiming with you would be suicide.

The scum motivation is that a townie could vouch for you and give you protection, with the added bonus that after getting busted, I would get fucked for claiming with you. No way.

Still your move, buddy

Vote: SensFan

[Toast]

Beck, work with me here.

Give me the scum master plan that is claiming mason with someone who isn't your partner.

He gets protection from someone else (me), with the bonus that if/when he gets investigated, I go down with him. Seems like a good scum plan to pull off with someone you think will trust you just because he "knows" you're town.

[Toast]

It wouldn't be 1-1 because nobody would go after him until MUCH MUCH later in the game. It's not 1-1 killed, it's 1-1 protected. Bad for town.

[Toast]

It wouldn't be 1-1 because nobody would go after him until MUCH MUCH later in the game. It's not 1-1 killed, it's 1-1 protected. Bad for town.

If you had agreed both of you would quickly be on the scum must kill list and your continued survival would become a death warrant.

Only if Sens is actually town! If Sens is scum, then scum could have killed me and then not gone after Sens. "I guess they're not going after me because solo Mason has no powers."

How are you not seeing this?

[Toast]

^nevermind, I would flip town

[Toast]

What if I was scum? You were so confident I wasn't that you were willing to risk me being scum and getting your protection for the rest of the game?

What I would also be doing is putting the claim in your hands; at any point in the game, you would have been able to come out and counterclaim me

Yeah, and if I was scum the whole town is fucked

You're right that I'm town, but that doesn't mean I should be confident in your judgement that I am.

[Toast]

What if I was scum? You were so confident I wasn't that you were willing to risk me being scum and getting your protection for the rest of the game?

What I would also be doing is putting the claim in your hands; at any point in the game, you would have been able to come out and counterclaim me

Yeah, and if I was scum the whole town is fucked

You're right that I'm town, but that doesn't mean I should be confident in your judgement that I am.

You aren't Scum. I've been over this a million times. I know you're not Scum. You know you're not Scum. So problem solved.

The only way you can "know" that I'm not scum is if you are. You don't "know", you suspect. Apparently strongly enough to do crazy fake claims.

Besides, it also works in reverse. If somehow I knew you were Scum later in the game, I could claim and the gig would be up. But that wouldn't have been necessary; I would have been killed N1 for being a Mason and busting the scumteam wide open.

If I was scum, I would definitely not kill you night 1 for fake claiming Mason with me...

[Toast]

Sigghhhh.

Sens, thoughts on the actual scum I'm voting for?

Um, let me read him in iso. He could still be the third.

I'd like you to please post a clear and concise explanation why you think I'm scum including how you originally came to the conclusion.

You have failed to explain your read.

this

[Toast]

/confirm

Wait...21 pages and you're still in pre-game? I'm confused.

I'm not reading 21 pages of pre-game if I don't have to, would someone please fill me in on our status?

You can start on page 12 or so, everything before then is "YOU'RE SCUM" "NO YOU ARE" "NO YOU"

[Toast]

Rblink didn't take pre-game seriously, because you aren't supposed to take pre-game seriously. THE GAME HADN'T STARTED. If he did something specifically scummy, fine. I'll hear that reasoning. But I asked for logic, and you gave me LACK OF CONTENT as your only real point.

Exactly.

Between Ranmaru and rblinker, my vote would be for Ran, just because of how quickly he came to SensFan's defense when that clusterfuck about being Mason started, saying things like "lying is a null tell" in the process. I don't think there's a solid reason to have either of them be our day 1 lynch.

I don't think we'll get anywhere trying to nail rblinker. If he's scum, there will be more chances for him to slip up later on. Inactivity during pregame is not a good scum tell, even if most of the other people had been talking.

[Toast]

Whoa whoa whoa. "Lying is a null tell"?

Yep. It's his iso #50. I would recommend you read his whole iso though and tell me he doesn't smell scummy.

[Toast]

Whoa whoa whoa. "Lying is a null tell"?

According to Ran

Yet 2 people have lied so far

2? SensFan and?

[Toast]

Whoa whoa whoa. "Lying is a null tell"?

According to Ran

Yet 2 people have lied so far

2? SensFan and?

I feel you have lied about your experience. As I explained you have more reason to lie about your experience this game than you did as a town cop and sign up thread.

I think I gave perfectly valid justification for why I did that, even though using the fact that I lied IN A DIFFERENT GAME is dumb.

Let me see if I understand your argument.

1) Toast does a "town slip" on page one.
[Sens immediately recognizes it's a town slip. You're suspicious of Sens, so you are wary of his opinions]
2) There is no reason not to believe Toast is experienced enough to do it on purpose even though he only played one and a half games on this site.
[Let's try to find evidence to support this claim]
3) Toast said he has not played on any other sites, but in the other game, he did say he played on other sites.
[Toast explains why he lied in the other games]
4) It would benefit him more to have told the truth before and lie now to have lied before and tell the truth now.
(^ You need to look at how likely it is, not how much it would benefit me.)

If I got your case against me right, then there is literally nothing I can do to convince you otherwise because your argument all revolves around intuitions you have about how to interpret what I've done. In that case, sad day. If you have nothing more substantial on anyone else at the end of some day, then you'd be justified in lynching me.

[Toast]

Blinker for avoiding discussion - pre-game or not, the game had started
Ran - quickly changing his FOS when Sens mentions he could be my scum buddy, defending Sens, saying his lying is not a scum tell
Bo - I feel there is something off about his play, I can explain when I get to a pc
Pine - for denying pre-game is relevant and for ignoring Sens's fake claim completely.

Blinker: Your argument is horrible. Players have no obligation to participate in pre-game.
Ran: Agreed.
Bo: Also agreed. In particular, anyone who thinks Ran is less scummy than blinker I am going to be heavily suspicious of.
Pine: He's not denying pre-game is relevant, he's saying that blinker's participation in pre-game is not indicative of scum. Pine DEFINITELY needs to read SensFan's Mason claim scenario carefully. If he acknowledges he read it and still says it's not important, then I'll agree he's suspicious.

[Toast]

At this point:
I would hammer Sens, Ran, or Bo.
I'm suspicious of SpyreX, Beck, blinker (suspicion of blinker growing with every post he makes)
everyone else is neutral

If you have a specific question about any of those opinions, ask away

[Toast]

Give me the scum master plan that is claiming mason with someone who isn't your partner.

I'm not one for willy nilly town lying but IN THIS CASE there's more upside: if Toast had bit, then Sens narrows the killin' pool tonight and paints a big ol target on his head (yea, this shouldn't happen but its bleedingly apparent Sens is a VT). Even better* would have been if Toast ate the NK because in that scenario it would make negative sense for Sens to have pulled the stunt (theoretically D2 could start with "OMG Toast agreed to the lie!"

It kills the white noise and starts a direction out of the gate. Something that needs to happen in a speed game.

I'm not commending it, but I understand it.

---

On the flipside the risk/reward for scum (unless both are scum which woo) is much worse. There's not an upside unless its "Hope someone like SpyreX comes to the rescue instead of turning me into slag".

Which woosh.

It wouldn't be 1-1 because nobody would go after him until MUCH MUCH later in the game. It's not 1-1 killed, it's 1-1 protected. Bad for town.

If you had agreed both of you would quickly be on the scum must kill list and your continued survival would become a death warrant.

I can't believe I'm still arguing this with you.

Basically, the fact that he can't even imagine Sens is scum. "If you had agreed both of you would quickly be on the scum must kill list and your continued survival would become a death warrant. " MAKES NO SENSE if you stop and consider for a SECOND what would have happened if I played along AND SENSE WAS SCUM. This suggests Spy is scum and knows Sens is town or they are both scum and Spy is protecting him badly.



Beck I'm less suspicious of, but I'm still wary because he keeps bringing up my actions in a DIFFERENT GAME as evidence that I'm lying here. Obviously it's possible I've been lying, but until he has some sort of substantial evidence I'm just assuming he's trying to throw suspicion on as many people as he can find any reason to.

[Toast]

@rblinker: Quit being ignorant. Beck's scum tells are actually in one exclusive post. Yes, a post dedicated to the scum tells. #581. Are you reading the game?

Hm...Toast. Your suspicion of SpyreX is based solely on the fact he doesn't think Sens is Scum?

*takes notes*

Not that he doesn't THINK Sens is scum - it's the fact that his posts show how he didn't even properly consider the POSSIBILITY that sens is scum.

[Toast]

We need ran, twisted, noramp, spyrex, and cyber to say something now

[Toast]

Toast, are you referring to Ram or Spyrex because I also noticed that Ram whilst most of his play hasn't really sparked up much suspicion, never really consider that SensFan could be scum with the whole falseclaiming etc.

Both - twisted asked me about Spyrex, so I answered about him, but I agree that Ran was behaving the same way (in fact, I'd rather lynch Ran than spyrex)

[Toast]

Toast: Ok, I think it defiantly is dodgy that both just ignored the possibility that SensFan being scum, as although people have put arguments forward for SensFan claim etc to be town, there defiantly is a scummy side to it, and people should have been suspicious and at least consider he might be scum. At the moment, id like To here a little more from Ram to get a better read before voting and I'm going to have a look at some of Spyrexs play now,

Your priority should be saving your neck, not trying to find reasons to blame spyrex. I think you're more suspicious than him on everyone's list.

[Toast]

What. beck your not listening I've said several times I wasn't going to vote him again, i unvoted but wanted people to know where I stood with him, I still had my suspicions. And I haven't voted yet because I've been to busy with defending myself, but I'm starting to look at others now.

How about you stop telling us you're going to scum hunt and start scum hunting. "I haven't voted yet because I've been too busy with defending myself" is stupid. Don't tell me defending yourself takes so much mental energy you can't think about who might be mafia.

Also the reason I unvoted SensFan was coz I did think my vote was in the heat of the moment, i was tired and it was late. I would like to try to find more suspicion on him before Offically voting when the game started so I though it was best to unvote, however I still wanted people to no I had my suspicions.

Can't tell if you're bad or scum

Also Noramp, about ram, maybe he has a power role, but we won't no unless he claims which is unlikely so early, so we'll have to loom into him further.

..what? Making it even harder to decide..

Toast, people are telling me to scum hunt and stop always defending myself, yet now when I'm looking at other players, your telling me I shouldn't focus on that, then what am I meant to do, when I was defending myself you said I was getting more suspicious by the post.[/quote]

When I said "save your neck" I meant "stop acting scummy", not "defend yourself more."

You said:

At the moment, id like To here a little more from Ram to get a better read before voting and I'm going to have a look at some of Spyrexs play now,

I question your decision to go after spyrex first, but whatever. So what's your opinion of spy right now?

[Toast]

Save your neck relates more to defending yourself but if you mean save your neck by not acting scummy, I would need to defend myself still. To not act scummy, I would have to explain why I'm not scummy, I can't just ignore the accusations people are making. I didn't make the ram situation any harder. Noramp, said something indicating about maybe Ram has a power role, he might he might not, we'll have to loom further into him, that doesn't make it harder.

I am starting to scumhu t but I still have to defend myself, I'm starting to look into people and thats why I asked you about whether you were talking about ram because i was reading Rams posts and found it weird that he didn't consider SensFan was scum and but you were on about Spyrex so I'm going to look into him, so I am starting to scum hunt.

blah blah blah blah blah blah

Yes, yank, I'm starting to.

but you decided to write another post defending yourself first


To everyone else:

I'm starting to look into people and thats why I asked you about whether you were talking about ram because i was reading Rams posts and found it weird that he didn't consider SensFan was scum and but you were on about Spyrex so I'm going to look into him, so I am starting to scum hunt.

Ran/blinker buddies?

[Toast]

As they seperate themselves so much more than others it could all be a plan, after all no one really expects it and then with the fact that beck finds SensFan the most scummy player he won't vote him and finds him the most deserving playing of a policy vote, he wont vote him. As the seperation between the two happened in pre-game it would be the best time to do so, straight away.

We're all aware of the possibility, thanks for your insight though

Also Toast, care to explain why you think me and toast are scum buddies.

lol u nervous?

blinker, what do you think of Ran saying that lying is a null tell?

[Toast]

I think ran and you are buddies because you're suspicious of ranmaru and spyrex for what you claim to be the same reasons I am, but by that metric ranmaru is WAY more likely to be scum. You claim to have read both of their histories and come to the conclusion that spyrex is more worthy of your scum-hunting time than ranmaru and I find that to be BS.

Unvote: SensFan

Vote: rblinker123

Not because I'm less suspicious of Sens, but because rblinker hasn't been handling pressure well at all and knowing his role will be much more helpful than knowing SensFan's.

(Also, his name is Ranmaru, not Ramnaru, so don't say "ram")

[Toast]

No, its a policy lynch, i do want to help catch town.

And yet none of your posts so far have been helpful. "But I'm forced to spend time defending myself!" <- addressed that already

Toast, I can vote you for exactly the same reason.

Do you even understand what the reason is? Please, formulate an argument for why I should be lynched.

I don't expect ran or Spyrex to be scum, but I found what both them did was scummy. And no I never came to the conclusion that Spyrex is more worthy of my scum-hunting time so stop making shit up.

and yet:

I'm starting to look into people and thats why I asked you about whether you were talking about ram because i was reading Rams posts and found it weird that he didn't consider SensFan was scum and but you were on about Spyrex so I'm going to look into him, so I am starting to scum hunt.

If I was "on about spyrex" and you actually understood my reason for being suspicious of him, you would have started your scum hunt with ran, not spyrex. Either way, you "have started to scum hunt" and have given us nothing.

And knowing my role wouldn't help more because when I flip town, towns one down and my lynch doesn't lead anywhere.

And if you're scum, we have good reads for day 2.

You's are going after me saying I'm not scum hunting, when I'm shown that I don't deserve the lynch for the reasons part forward, but you's arent listening, so why don't you keep your suspicion on me and votes but at least look at some other possible scum for a little while do some more scum-hunting, if you don't find anyone worthy of the lynch than me, then come back and lynch me in a tomorrow. But when I flip town you'll look back and see that your arguments where pretty stupid and I wasn't the most scummy player.

I am looking for others. The rest just haven't answered any of my questions or responded to any of my suspicions. You're just giving me such golden responses I can't help but tear you apart.


But this is pointless. Your response will just be "but but but I'm not scum!" without contributing anything to the hunt.

[Toast]

Hmm. Sens + Toast = Scum. Sens fakeclaims Mason to protect buddy, Toast goes WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING ARE YOU CRAZY YOU'LL GET US BOTH KILLED TAKE HIM INSTEAD.

So you're saying you would have played along?

[Toast]

I'm not sure how Ran's claim is supposed to change my opinion of anyone other than him and Sens. I made my opinions of people based on their reactions to the information they had. Whether or not their actions ACTUALLY helped town doesn't matter when trying to figure out their motivations for acting based on what they did know.

To be honest I don't see any reason for why Ran should have claimed today. It didn't look like Sens was in trouble. rblinker is the closest to lynch atm and there's nothing we learn about him from this claim.

Ran, why exactly did you claim?

[Toast]

^ If it was after #51 and not before your reactions to the Sens mason fiasco, I'm still suspicious of you.

[Toast]

We have one day and 20 hours till deadline. I figured claiming now would be best to give everyone time to think of a new direction. I don't want town to scramble near deadline.

I mean what information do we gain, other than that you and Sens are not scum? Do you not think we had enough information to have a good chance of lynching scum today?

[Toast]

You gain info from Sensfan's wagon, and from those who have spoken interest on joining his wagon.

No, I did not.

We don't though. Half of everyone here thought he was scum. From the information we had, calling him scum seemed to make the most sense, at least to some people. Any half-decent scum team would not all pile onto his bandwagon, and at least some townies must necessarily have voted for him. You're saying we now can somehow figure out who piled on because they're scum and who piled on because they actually thought Sens needed to be lynched? I'm not sure we'll get anywhere with that. I guess I'll try though, since we don't really have much of a choice now.

[Toast]

or can you simply ask to investigate somebody and the wish is granted?

that would be stupid as fuck

To everyone that was very suspicious of Sens, do you believe Ran's investigation?

For now, yes. Most of what came from Sens and Ran makes sense if his claim is true. I think it's better to act on it as if it's true and see what changes overnight.


P. edit: Oh ran, I thought you meant your iso #51. If it was post #51, I'm significantly less suspicious of you.

[Toast]

Toast, Sens, and Beck (I'm pretty sure at least) how do feel about Spyrex's convictions that you are 100% town in his mind? Does this seem like something town would do?

Seems reasonable for him to think that we're town but unreasonable for him to assume it 100%. I think it's definitely possible Sens and Beck are both town. Am I more suspicious of spyrex for thinking so too? Not really.

[Toast]

I'm confused, is the 'death squad' supposed to be this town alliance? Who exactly are you guys talking about?

[Toast]

What about rblinker? I feel much worse about him than about anyone you're thinking of lynching.

[Toast]

Start from #610 until rblinker goes to bed.

Basically I put on pressure and I think he handled it very poorly. Took any hint I gave him at what he needed for my approval and tried to act like that's what he was doing all along. I dunno, it's hard to explain reads but read that whole exchange and tell me what you think.

[Toast]

Going to bed now, I'll be on tomorrow morning

[Toast]

Why were you under the impression there was going to be a L-1 at sens anyway? He had 2 votes when you claimed.

[Toast]

You're not the only one

[Toast]

So, ran, is it a real claim or not?

For fuck's sake guys, fake claims like this do not help town. If you're so confident in your reads then spend your time hunting scum and tearing them apart instead of trying to cover other townies who don't need the support.

Sens claimed to "cover" me, yet I wasn't about to get lynched.
Ran claimed to "cover" Sens, yet sens wasn't about to get lynched.

You've created distrust and confusion for NO good reason.


P. Edit: True. I highly doubt the mod would let Ran investigate before the game starts.

Unvote: rblinker

Don't want a hammer to go off until I'm less confused about what the fuck is happening

[Toast]

It seems like Ran should have realized that fake claiming is stupid as fuck because even if he's right about his reads it just slows things down.

I'll say it again:

Sens claimed to protect me when there was NO RISK of me being lynched.
Ran claimed to protect sens when there was NO RISK of sens being lynched.

Both of them did it in the name of "giving town direction and not wasting time on town", but in both cases it's only slowing things down.

[Toast]

Toast: Sens and Ran are scum, stop trying to rationalize it for them. They have their own voices.

I Wonder how accurate my prediction of a Sens-Ran-Toast team I had early in the game will be?

66% accurate at best

I'm not trying to rationalize it for them, I'm pointing out why what they're doing makes no fucking sense.

P. edit: whoa, what? What made you suddenly decide I'm scum? I've agreed with your point of view on this issue completely

[Toast]

^ p edit @ beck

[Toast]

Toast: Then vote Ranmaru.

PE: Same @blinker

I'll vote Ranmaru after he posts and explains his fake claim. Remember, he hasn't even come out and told us whether he faked it or not.

[Toast]

Toast: Sens and Ran are scum, stop trying to rationalize it for them. They have their own voices.

that would be too bold a move for scum

How is everyone misreading my post? I am in no way rationalizing anything for them. I'm pointing out that their behavior is stupid and not helpful for town.

[Toast]

Toast: Then vote Ranmaru.

PE: Same @blinker

I'll vote Ranmaru after he posts and explains his fake claim. Remember, he hasn't even come out and told us whether he faked it or not.

he doesn't need to, if mod allowed an investigation pre-game than this invalidates the game.

there is no way he allowed an investigation go through during pre-game.

I could have psychic powers and know 100% that Ranmaru is scum and still want him to post. Any post from any player is valuable information at this point. We NEED to hear what Ran has to say because he's the one who claimed cop and because HE HAS NOT EVEN CONFIRMED THAT THE CLAIM IS FAKE

[Toast]

Also, I'll gladly vote ran without his explanation if it comes to the end of the day. I don't want him hammered without at least some words out of his mouth that Ran's claim is fake. I'm confident it is, but I want to hear it out of his mouth.

[Toast]

You don't need to wait on the mod, Twisted. He claimed DAYcop, he was very specific.

daycop, not pregame cop

[Toast]

There's no issue with asking the Mod to confirm, and if it's possible Ran's telling the truth, ask if Ran is lying. We do only have about a day, but these two people should be keeping up with the game enough to answer these before we panic trying to find another lynch target.

Are you really telling me you think the mod will let you know that he allows DayCops to investigate when it's not the Day?

Yup.

[Toast]

And Toast has also asked about a million other gameplay-related questions. So either he's faking them all, or he's faking none of them.

Just because you're right doesn't mean your reasons for being right are any good. You should not be sure that someone who is suspicious of someone else asking gameplay-related questions is scum. Focus on your other reasons for thinking Beck is scum, because this one is bad.

[Toast]

And Toast has also asked about a million other gameplay-related questions. So either he's faking them all, or he's faking none of them.

Just because you're right doesn't mean your reasons for being right are any good. You should not be sure that someone who is suspicious of someone else asking gameplay-related questions is scum. Focus on your other reasons for thinking Beck is scum, because this one is bad.

You missed the point completely.

I'm saying you're suspicious of beck for not realizing that it's obvious that I'm being genuine with my game-related questions. Correct?

I'm saying that this reason for being suspicious is bad.

What point did I miss?

Anyway, Ran needs to get in here asap.

[Toast]

Well I was gambitting but I forgot about pre-game. I felt a gambit in a speed game would be ok. That was my first time doing that particular gambit too.

Why the fuck did you think the gambit was necessary to begin with? Do you realize how far back it sets everyone back?
SENS WAS NOT IN DANGER OF GETTING LYNCHED.

[Toast]

If you even

think

of asking how he know I'm Town, the answer is 'Because Sens is a Mason

So you're officially re-claiming Mason? Please be clear, don't waste time.

[Toast]

I still haven't heard answers to these questions:

Sens, why did you feel the need to fake claim to protect me if there was no risk of me being lynched.

Ran, why did you feel the need to fake claim to protect Sens if there was no risk of Sens being lynched

Don't say "because I wanted people to stop wasting time on that person / I wanted to hear what people thought of other people", because that's bullshit.

[Toast]

No, I'm saying that if anyone is dumb enough to ask Ran how he was so sure I was Town, I will answer for him that it's because I'm a Mason with Toast.

Nope, still not gonna play along.

My guess is ran/sens/blinker.
Let's decide which of Sens and Ran should be lynched and follow through.

[Toast]

I have answered that question, and it isn't bullshit. Did you see me asking people for their stances?

If that's your reason and you're town, then that is straight up horrible play.

[Toast]

@Toast:

No it isn't. Explain. (It did create stances, for example, Blinker finally gave a stance on ANOTHER player) Bo is right that I have planned it from the start.

Ok, so we have a bit more info on blinker. Blinker was already L-1 for day 1 lynch. Please point out any other information we gained.


Also, Sens, yes or no, are you claiming mason?

[Toast]

Bo, for both Sens claim and Rams claim you never really found them suspicious and have defended both of them when they claimed, that seems a little suspicious. There falseclaims are so anti-town.

Are you scum or just oblivious to how scummy all your posts sound?

[Toast]

I know it's logically correct, it just gives of very scummy vibes. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks so though. I'll step pressing the issue, I don't have a good reason to. Just saying that I'm suspicious.

[Toast]

sens: I'm not sure if you're genuinely insulting my intelligence or just doing so in the hopes I keep quiet and stop pointing out how little everything you're doing is helping town.


Anyway, we need to start acting. A lynch needs to happen and we can't keep letting these bullshit fake claims make us lose direction.

I propose we do an instant run-off vote. Everyone rank people you want lynch in the order you'd want them lynched and when someone wins the IRV with at least 7 votes we agree to lynch that person. Fair?

1) Sens
2) blinker
3) ran
4) bo
5) beck

[Toast]

Sens, sarcasm doesnt go down well in mafia games, why are you keep fake claiming its just confusing town and wasting time. Gives us a straight answer. Are you claiming Mason again or Not, Yes or No?

If you don't want me to keep fakeclaiming Mason, then don't keep asking me how I know Toast is Town.
If you don't want Ran to keep fakeclaiming Cop, then don't keep asking him how he knows I'm Town.

Capiche?

If you and rans had good reasons to suspect this in the first place, you wouldn't need fake claims. Don't say "we don't have time!! must gambit!!" because you've wasted 2 days with that.

[Toast]

HEY TOAST, PLZ RESPOND TO MY #931 K THX.

I agree that is information we didn't have. No I do not think it was worth it in light of the fact that now we have a clusterfuck of fake claims and a lack of direction. Then again, you were already suspicious in a lot of people's eyes, so maybe we don't lost much.

Can you give an ordered list of who you want lynched?

p. edit: bo, your list can be as long as you like. I'll TS as your #6 when doing the IRV

p. edit @sens: I know why you think I know I'm town. I think it's a bad reason. We've been over this.

[Toast]

Now why am I suspicious to people besides that?

In short, it was because of the way you reacted to Sens's fake claim. I understand you're of the same mentality of him and can understand why he tried to do what he tried to do. Until I can get some sort of conclusive information about Sens I will be suspicious of you for how much you're supporting him. Fair?

[Toast]

Now why am I suspicious to people besides that?

In short, it was because of the way you reacted to Sens's fake claim. I understand you're of the same mentality of him and can understand why he tried to do what he tried to do. Until I can get some sort of conclusive information about Sens I will be suspicious of you for how much you're supporting him. Fair?

I can explain that. It's because Ran and I have played dozens of extreme speed Mafia in the last few weeks.

I'll keep that in mind.
Sens, do you have an ordered list of lynch targets?

[Toast]

TS I see you. Can you give a list?

[Toast]

list of what?

an ordered list of people you want lynched so we can do an IRV so we know who to default lynch if we start running out of time

[Toast]

so
1) zepher
2) cyber
3) spyrex

yes?

[Toast]

Yankcane, what's your lynch list?

[Toast]

.... your post 51 is post 643.

Game started 452.

Post 51, not iso 51. He's said this more than once now.

[Toast]

yank what is your lynch list?

[Toast]

With this list:

toast: sens, blinker, ran, bo, beck
spyrex: blinker, ran, pine
blinker: sens, ran, bo, spy
bo: blinker, ran, zeph, pine, noramp
ran: noramp, yank, blinker, beck, zeph
noramp: blinker, ran, zeph, spyrex
sens: beck, blinker
twisted: cyber, zeph, yank
yank: ran, sens, toast, blinker

blinker has 7 votes by IRV. The only way this will change without several people changing their lists completely is if at least 2 more people who haven't posted lists put sens ahead of blinker.
blinker should be the default lynch if we are pushed for time.

[Toast]

The only people who are possibly getting lynched today are blinker or Sens. It's almost certainly going to be blinker, unless almost all of the people who have not posted their suspicions want to go after Sens over blinker. My suggestion is we figure out which out of those two should be getting the lynch.

This is based on this list:


toast: sens, blinker, ran, bo, beck
spyrex: blinker, ran, pine
blinker: sens, ran, bo, spy
bo: blinker, ran, zeph, pine, noramp, TS
ran: noramp, yank, blinker, beck, zeph
noramp: blinker, ran, zeph, spyrex
sens: beck, blinker
twisted: cyber, zeph, yank
yank: ran, sens, toast, blinker


Just pointing out the fact that we're running out of time and that everyone seems pretty solidified in their suspicions.

[Toast]

Blinker is in top 2 for 5 people ran is in top two for six. This is assuming that those lists are actually most willing to least willing but I think there's a more general desire to lynch Ran. What do you guys think?

Blinker is #1 more often than ran. If you run the instant-runoff thing on these lists, blinker comes out on top. I don't think your claim that "there's a more general desire to lynch Ran" is substantiated. I agree that we should consider lynching ran, but the easiest lynch for people to come to a consensus to should be blinker.

[Toast]

agreed with beck. re-voting blinker:

Vote: rblinker

[Toast]

I'm not going to bother explaining it to you again.
If someone else wants to know, read pages 24-26, paying attention to how rblinker reacts to my pressure. If you still have questions after that, ask away.

[Toast]

Not quite - you're the only player who

1) is scummy
2) is likely to get lynched (which is important important this late in the day)
3) is not very useful even if he's town

[Toast]

He's the only player you think is scummy but you have a lynch list with more players than just blinker on it?

No, he is the only person who is all three of those things.

[Toast]

Toast, I dont like you following others. Do something on your own

Excuse me? Who have I been following? There is not a single person with whom my suspicions line up for all players. I've been applying my own pressure and have been justifying all of my opinions thoroughly. Please point out some counterexamples so I can address them.

[Toast]

Toast, I dont like you following others. Do something on your own

Excuse me? Who have I been following? There is not a single person with whom my suspicions line up for all players. I've been applying my own pressure and have been justifying all of my opinions thoroughly. Please point out some counterexamples so I can address them.

Your vote change back to blinker, you basically followed me

You'll notice I suggested we do IRV. I'm voting for the person who is currently leading there. You'll also notice that I voted for blinker way earlier, but then unvoted because I was scared of a hammer before the ranmaru claim got resolved. I agreed that we need to get voting, but don't delude yourself into thinking I'm just voting for rblinker because you are.

[Toast]

Who are we still waiting on for the voting list?

I think zeph, cyber, pine, beck
The only way you won't be on top is if 3 of the 4 remaining people all put sens ahead of you

[Toast]

But basically i cant win, whatever, i write people say is scummy, i cant continue to defend myself because, people arent really listen, there basically just saying no its scum, if someone else had of used my defence yous probably would have listened but for no its scummy.

lol wut

[Toast]

I've come to the conclusion blinker is just not able to comprehend the difference between how he is behaving and how you should behave as town.

[Toast]

there is absolutely no reason anyone should prefer to no lynch over lynching blinker

[Toast]

Holy hell, you really can't afford to miss any time in speed games can you.

Ok, so let me make sure I understand:

Sens claims tracker, he tracked beck, who targets jun
beck goes with it and claims tracker, but will not reveal who jun tracked

pressure is now on ranmaru for being ambiguous on how exactly he planned his daycop claim

is this right?

[Toast]

oh well Noramp left.

Recall back to D1 when Sensfan tried to rush the Day. I had an 'inno' on him so why would he rush the Day if he was a TOWN pr?

Of course I wanted the Day rushed. Have you not noticed how other than the tiny stretch of D1 when you claimed an Inno on me, that half of the game has wanted to lynch me? I know I'm Town, and so I wanted to get out of D1 ASAP

you had 2 votes on you when you fake claimed...

Is the consensus that one of beck, sens, or june must be scum? I can't see it any other way..

[Toast]

You're not very good at this. If it weren't for the fake DayCop claim, I'd probably have been lynched yesterday.

THIS IS FALSE. YOU WERE NEVER IN DANGER OF BEING LYNCHED DAY 1. How many votes were on you when you fake claimed? How many votes were on you when Ran fake claimed?

[Toast]

After people started solidifying their votes, you were never in the lead for votes.

[Toast]

Let me know which of the following steps is too much for you, k?

1) Assume I am Town
2) If I get lynched, Town suffers
3) If nothing changes from yesterday, I get lynched today
4) The day started with significant pressure on me
5) It is likely that a good portion of the Day would have been spent on me
6) Confirming myself as a Tracker lowers my chance of being lynched
7) Lower chance of a Town PR being lynched helps the Town

Capiche?

You're actually a terrible player, you don't think things through you just do them. And when asked for reasoning you have none because you just did it to achieve your overall goal of making yourself look clear. But here's the thing, we don't know you're a PR, you won't have another night action (>implying legit) until two more nights. If you really are town you'd die by then anyways, but not before screwing up our scumhunting and interfering with your terrible assumptions. A good portion of the day is being spent on you BECAUSE of this claim. You can't refute ANY of the points I made because ALL OF THEM are good points. You have no basis to do anything but sit back and get lynched. I'm still deciding if Ramnuru was a scumslip or not. But I'm confident in your lynch.

I agree with this 100%. You may all assume I was going to say this exact same thing. Saves me some typing.

[Toast]

SensFan you should SCUMHUNT like a normal townie instead of squeezing out claims. Determine if you think your target is town or mafia, then move from there with what you think is the best move depending on the investigation.

I've done more sucmhunting than anyone in this game. I've given more strong reads than anyone in this game.

I've seen maybe two posts from you where you actually explain why you think someone is scum or ask probing questions.

Nobody cares about your "strong reads":
SETAEL IS SCUM! NO REASON WHY JUST SHUT UP SHE IS SCUM! YOU'RE STUPID IF YOU CAN'T SEE WHY

[Toast]

And I'll ask you now, since Beck isn't talking sense. When I claimed that I tracked him to you, he came out and claimed that he tracked you to someone who is still living. Thus, he has already pointed out that you do in fact have a Power Role of some sort. Thus, what's the benefit here of confirming himself as a Tracker? There are 3 claimed Trackers, and I doubt all of them are Town. Therefore, I don't see the benefit in not at least clearing himself as a Tracker, since at this point I have to wonder if actually the Trackers are just me and Bob (fitting the EN/ON pair), and he doesn't actually know who you targetted.

If all of your posts were this well written I don't think anybody would be suspecting you of anything.

[Toast]

Proposal:

Jun, salt/hash the name of the person you visited and post the hash. THEN Beck tell us who Jun visited, otherwise we lynch him. That way Jun can't go along with whatever Beck says because there's still a chance Jun is not a PR at all (beck made it up, jun followed).

Good?

[Toast]

If we were scumbuddys wouldn't we of arranged this beforehand so this trick wouldn't mess us up?

You arranged to agree on who you visited? Possible. I don't think beck would be so hesitant to say who you tracked if you were scum buddies.

I don't understand the salt/hash thing, wouldn't that mean that beck could see who it is that I visited and just copy that?

No, hash functions are not reversible. For example, say you visited me. Run "toast +!@#%" (random characters after name is the "salt"), then run it through md5 (just google for an md5 algorithm), then post the resulting hash. beck cannot know what you entered into the hash, since you can't reverse it. After beck claims, you post what you originally ran through the hash, so we can verify you aren't just following beck.

[Toast]

Shit, I messed up quotes. You know what I meant.

[Toast]

> Other Information
pre-17) No mechanism or website may be used to prove that a decision was achieved randomly. I.e. you may chose who claims first by rolling a dice, but you'll have to trust the person who rolled the dice not to lie.

Against the rules I believe.

This will not be used to prove that a decision was achieved randomly, so it is not against the rules.

[Toast]

Unless you just admitted that you would be picking who you said you visited tonight randomly.

[Toast]

HA GOTCHA

[Toast]

^ I meant last night in 1427

[Toast]

[quot]No mechanism or website may be used

to prove that a decision was achieved randomly.

I.e. you may chose who claims first by rolling a dice, but you'll have to trust the person who rolled the dice not to lie.[/quote]

Unless you're saying that who you chose to visit is going to be picked randomly by you (which, if you're telling the truth, shouldn't be true, since you should have already have a name), then this is in no way against the rules.

[Toast]

Don't run away from this Jun
both Jun and Beck had better not dare reveal who jun visited until jun posts the person's hashed name

[Toast]

[quot]No mechanism or website may be used

to prove that a decision was achieved randomly.

I.e. you may chose who claims first by rolling a dice, but you'll have to trust the person who rolled the dice not to lie.

Unless you're saying that who you chose to visit is going to be picked randomly by you (which, if you're telling the truth, shouldn't be true, since you should have already have a name), then this is in no way against the rules.

If it isn't against the rules great, I didn't visit who I visited last night at random either, you should be able to tell by my apparent demeanor that I wouldn't do that. Also the implication that I was asking you if it was legal for me to make up a claim is ridiculous. If I was mafia I wouldn't use that website to make up the claim anyways so the point of the rule is moot.

Link me a place where I can do this and explain it to me in detail how to do this.

moderator, just to be clear I am allowed to use a website like this to give town an encrypted message right?

[/quote]

Write down the name of the person you visited, then add a few random characters after it.
If you visited me, your text could be "toast 123$$%" or something.

P. edit: fine, jun can just say "true" or "false" without revealing the name. It's still better to have the information so that later if we need it we can make sure Jun isn't the one who was lying, in case he just says "True" regardless of whether Beck gets it right. There is no pro-town reason not to do this.
Go to http://www.miraclesalad.com/webtools/md5.php, paste your text, then copy+paste the hash back into a post. For my input text, you can verify the hash would be: 0eef9767245001d5f5e122aad70c0273
Make sure you save your input string somewhere, we'll need it.

After you do this, pressure should be on Beck to tell us who you visited. If they match, this potentially clears you and beck. If they don't, at least one of you guys is in deep shit.

[Toast]

What the hell this is 3 posts in a row my quotes mess up

[Toast]

SENS, NO. If beck says before jun gives us his hash, JUN CAN SAY THAT BECK WAS RIGHT NO MATTER WHAT. A jun/beck scum team would leave us completely fucked in that situation.

[Toast]

Wait, I feel Beck is townier than Jun so Jun should go first.

Jun should go first, but not with the plain text name.

[Toast]

Sens isn't against it. There is no harm in posting the hash, you can just refuse to give us the plaintext if you don't want to reveal.

[Toast]

Ran: think of it as a one-way scramble that is impossible to reverse. Jun says "I visited blah" and scrambles it. Then beck claims. Then jun gives us what he scrambled so we can verify it. This way a potential jun/beck scum team wouldn't fuck us over.

P edit: doesn't matter, as long as we can read what name you intend. any string works.

p.edit 2: if you could reverse md5, you'd be making millions working for the NSA.

[Toast]

It really doesn't matter, they're all intractable to break

[Toast]

I have my hash

post it?

[Toast]

just the hash, not the key (if you used one with a key)

[Toast]

Agreed

[Toast]

My hash is a long series of numbers and letters.

Yes, so post it. We can't reverse it, so don't worry. We just use it later to verify you aren't lying.

[Toast]

Wait Mod didn't clarify on hashing yet tho?

not sure why we need mod verification, the rule clearly only says you can't use that stuff to prove something you did is random

[Toast]

I dont know what a key is I just typed my stuff in and got this code.

Make sure you made it harder to crack than just posting "Sens" or something, though.

most hash algorithms don't use keys, they're just one-way ciphers

[Toast]

oh nvm misunderstood

[Toast]

JUN POST THE HASH PLEASE
HURRY

the long string of letters/numbers you got? copy+paste it into a post. quickly.

[Toast]

Thanks jun. Now beck claims.

Vote: Beck

[Toast]

Beck, who did Jun visit?