NY136: The Death of ReaperCharlie (GAME OVER, Town win!)

[Meransiel]

@Parama: What the fuck?

Vote: Parama

[Meransiel]

I am talking about #16 btw.

Also, people, stop crowding pages with this hydra shit, it's useless. Just vote the effer or don't vote the effer.

[Meransiel]

I...checks.

Sorry, can't find it. But yeah, things have to be scum motivated, not weird, to warrant a vote.

unvote

Still can't see why you dedicated half the game so far to the hydra thing.

[Meransiel]

Discussion is not supposed to be so damn useless.

[Meransiel]

Look, what I'm saying is, he said he won't play the two player excuse to give convoluted reads and change his mind. Wouldn't it be easier to believe him, and call him out if he DOES that? IMO anyway.

[Meransiel]

Sarcasm aside, Mafia is about knowing when to believe people and when not to.

[Meransiel]

It's funny because the way you put it it's like you're making him sign his posts by voting me.

Also, why would I want to halt discussion in general if I'm not at risk anyway?

[Meransiel]

Lurking would be much easier from a scum perspective.

[Meransiel]

Well...quite frankly, I didn't understand what you said at all, Parama. I need to think better.

MoI defending 3 people? I don't know what to make of it, been in a single game with him where he was town and very aggressive. Meh, side note here.

By the way, what are the chances of a pure town 3 man neighborhood?

[Meransiel]

True, that's legit, we should only lynch from the neighborhood if the neighbors themselves feel like it's legit. And/or if we get some night info, of course. Could result in quite a catch, a 3 town neighborhood is too good anyway.

Kondi, when you stop sitting on your ass, can you tell us exactly what's been said? Everything helps. Really.

[Meransiel]

Then kondi is not dying.

[Meransiel]

I...well, I STRONGLY agree that kondi townslipped.

[Meransiel]

Yeah, if kondi was scum he would never have suggested that. Thus, town slip.

Lol, the first time I was neighbor I voted instantly on my neighbor, thought for sure he was scum. He wasn't. I didn't get to kill him until endgame. At endgame, I just realized I'm an idiot, and lynched Amrun, winning the game. Good times .

@DH: What do you think are the chances of Parama being scum?
@Parama: What do you think are the chances of DH being scum?

[Meransiel]

ninja'd

Hold the phone ….

You now are saying you did the exact same thing as Kondi in your first Mini yet your instinctive reaction the second the thread opened was to make a self-professed serious vote on Kondi?

--

*goodposting*

[Meransiel]

Low.

Did you want an exact number?

No, just wanted to see the response.

[Meransiel]

Maybe so, doesn't make it right or me wrong. So you seriously believe that a mason would try to convince his mason buddies not to lynch him?

I saw this before: "I will claim Mason and that you're in my group so when I flip you guys will b 100% confirmed". So it's reasonable.

You're voting Sens, right?

:goodposting:

[Meransiel]

That's hilarious. Wouldn't want in a neighborhood with you guys.

[Meransiel]

I actually find this quite active, with many contributing. Large, figures.

I still think this finding scum in the neighborhood should be just picked up later when it would benefit us more through info we get. And now, time for something risky.

@Pa, Dh, kondi: Are you just neighbors or some of you also have powers?

[Meransiel]

Not in the slightest.

If 1 or 2 of you are PR, you clearly can't be all town, so there's that. Plus, the scum will be forced to kill one of you, ridding us of a potential mislynch anyway. If you all claim vt then nothing really changes, amirite?

[Meransiel]

By the way, people, PBuG is strategic lurking (stalker is me).

[Meransiel]

I was town in SE: Outsiders.

@ the alleged rolefishing: I like the way you guys fail to think game-specific and hit it with broad, universal logic that may or may not apply in this particular game. But I already disclosed my reasons for my request, and I'd like others to also weigh in on that, objectively, without bsing theis way on my wagon.

[Meransiel]

Lol, thinking pointing at a townslip is a scumslip...and they say I wifom. No, I found the slip in the posts in-thread, from kondi's behavior, because I'm not a telepath.

PEDIT: How can you say that it's not a standalone reason to vote me and be ok with people voting me for that alone? Selective much.

Also, I didn't want you to comment on how town or scum the proposition makes me, but on the proposition itself! As much as I know you hate hearing this, I thought you were a better player, Thor.

[Meransiel]

*

3. I feel really stupid. I was under the impression that we were alignment confirmed. Haven't played any games in groups besides scum groups.

Is it that much of a stretch to regard this a townslip.

@sapo: would be good idea to explain things when you say them. meh

[Meransiel]

Oh, by the way, FWIW, I like MBL's posts. The only problem with them is that they're kinda few.

[Meransiel]

Petro, why do you think my style is similar to yours?

[Meransiel]

Again, stop the hell generalizing! This is a special situation where I deem it a logical decision.

Shamba - I answered to that, I think you're also generalizing.

[Meransiel]

Ok. Let us fucking recap.

If you really want an answer to that question, then, uh, if someone is town and does something really, really scummy like rolefishing, then yes, pointing out that they did something really really scummy is a good way to get them lynched. It's also a good way to scumhunt or to try to figure out their alignment.

You don't have to fucking kill somebody to see their alignment.

(with I really want an explanation from Meren about)

Your attention span amazes me.

I don't think the rest of Meren's posting is bad

What is bad about my request? I see why it is scummy, I called it risky even before stating it, but why is it ANTITOWN. So far you attacked me, not my argument.

I also don't agree with you that Sensfan trying to pressure Hydra into acting in a way that Sensfan seems to honestly think is more pro-town is a scumtell on Sensfan's part; early on day 1, trying to pressure someone into acting in a more pro-town way is often a good idea.

It's both a scumtell and a towntell. On one hand, he's being consistent with his PoV and demanding something that's not completely unreasonable. On the other, he's doing something that is easy, keeping up with it, not having to contribute on anything else. Hence, it's too fucking hard to read to be certain of reading it correctly. And so is Thor's obfuscating. So, cutting the crap would've been the most pro-town and pro-sanity thing, and I still don't think that's something worth giving a damn about.

And that's what I was trying to explain before Ythan came in and slapped me in the face with my inferiority.

much from bad / stupid Town than from scum

Why am I bad/stupid Town? What the hell?

So if Meran flips Town you are in agreement that at least 1 scum is likely found in that subset of players?

This. Now THIS is blatant chaining lynches. And I'm saying this because I KNOW someone like MoI is not going to get lynched early: If everyone in the neighborhood turns out to be town, this guy must die.

If it isn’t ok for me to make said relational observations that may be useful later why is it ok for you to do so?

Because you are setting someone as town for now and some other 3 people as scum for later. While he's setting someone as scum and some other 3 people as town. Motivation motivation MOTIVATION.

If they don't sign their posts or talk to each other before making their posts (and right now, they're not doing either), then they are going to objectively look by far scummier than anyone else by D3 or so. Instead of letting them point this out on D3 and give themselves an excuse for looking immensely scummy, I want them to fix this problem, so that if they look scummy it's because they're Scum, not because they're different people.

Nulltell WIFOM. HOW'S THAT FOR DISCUSSION, YTHAN.

Eh. I'm generally not. It's just that none of the active people seem especially scummy to me, and there isn't anyone I could really call a lurker 72 hours into the game, so I'm kind of at a loss to where to start. I'll hopefully find a good place to put my vote soon.

This is a normal town behavior. Whether I agree with it (I don't) or not.

That's really not the same thing. In the case of Meran, I'm at the point of thinking "was he rolefishing? Was that a scum gambit on his part?" and you seem to have completely skipped that step and gone right to "who is trying to mislynch him for rolefishing?" That's the thing that feels odd to me.

Your logic is astonishing. So I'M scummy because MOI doesn't think I'm scummy. Lol.

As discussed - in my opinion he was using logic unavailable to him without an inside track on the QT.

Ok. Let's say I was using logic unavailable to me without an inside track on the QT. That would make me scum. Except you DON'T know if scum have daytalk. Probably not.

What has AGM done after starting this whole kerfluffle?

Absou-frickin'-lutely nothing.

This is...a pretty decent argument. Brilliant even. I wouldn't expect this from bussing scum.

@Mer - so the "townslip" is him not admitting he is in a scum QT right now? Yeah...

...what? I don't understand this.

Ok, think I have to explain again. His first response here looked as if it can only come from town. That thing where he explained shiz. I do not see what's inconsistent about my point of view, and it IS shared by others.

I actually had the same "PR status could help evaluate whether there are scumz" thought that he did, though I would never have actually asked about it.

I REALLY don't like this post. Overcautious.

MoI is town unless Meransiel is scum.

I REALLY don't like this post. Argumentative. Also not really based on fact.

Am not feeling any of the popular wagons. I think Meransiel is town. Am not sure enough about 1 scum in the Neighborhood.

I REALLY don't like this post. Towncred.

My final opinion:

Yosarian2 is a strongly misguided townie. Thor is a gritty null. By the way, Thor, you still didn't tell me why you don't have a problem with the people voting me just for the rolefish. MoI and Iecerint are scum.

Vote: MoI

And I am still annoyed that the neighborhood roleclaim had no results. I really think it's a decent idea.

Fixed some quote tags.

-Amrun

[Meransiel]

@Mod: I know this will be quite a task, but can you pleasy please fix the quote tags up there? kthanx

[Meransiel]

Also, for people who don't know how to read:

Thor and AGM can't be both scum at the same time.

[Meransiel]

Not at all what I was saying. Attacking someone/questioning them/ pressuring them/ect. about a scummy action and seeing how they respond is one of the best ways to find out someone's alignment

Again, stop generalizing. You are not getting anything new from me on that particular subject. Not because I don't want to give anything new, but because I can't. I made my statement. Live with it or don't live with it. But don't expect any hidden layers of undisclosed logic.

Yes, I saw that. That's not really an explanation, though. Why would one of them being a power role mean that another one had to be scum?

Just as one hypothetical example, I could easily see a mod, say, giving one member of a neighborhood a vig kill, making the other two town, and then sitting back and laughing as the vig kills his two neighbors out of paranoia and mod WIFOM.

Because a PR sharing all his results with a full-town neighborhood at night just in case he would be dying the night he does it is VERY broken. VERY. I know that works only for investigative roles, protective roles and roleblockers, but...whait, no buts, that's almost all of them!

hmm? How did you get that from that post? I didn't say anything like that at all; that post doesn't have anything to do with your alignment, only with MoI's.

In fact, when I was attacking MoI for seeming to jump right to the conclusion that you were town and then attacking people for "trying to mislynch you", what I was wondering was if MoI is scum who already knows you're town from his role PM.

Oh. Misunderstood.
So you think my alignment must be different from MoI's?

I still think it's a really bad idea to get the neighbors to claim if they have any power roles or not. All it does is make things easier for the scum to know who to kill (and/or roleblock, if the scum have roleblockers)

Nope.

1. First and foremost, it is more beneficial for scum, at least in Larges, to protect themselves than kill PR. So if we see those PR's not dying, it means either

a. Scum is in the neighborhood and the mafia is trying to hide who said scum actually is by letting the number of neighbors high, for mislynches.

or

b. Said PR's have a higher chance of being scum.

2. A is pretty high probability any way you put it. B is easily verifiable with other night roles.

And finally, would they all claim VT NOTHING CHANGES.

Make a case against one of them, or don't,

That's not the point here. Why, for fuck's sake, should scum be let free from scrutiny just because there's no

non-game specific

reason they're scummy, or because they're not giving off scumslips? I am not forced to scumhunt on behavior alone, and sometimes suspicion does not come from the player's mindset itself, but his

slot

.

Also, why make cases against them, if I DON'T intend them to get lynched until at least 1 night has passed (which my suggestion clearly implies)? It's aberrant.

Fixed some quote tags.

-Amrun

[Meransiel]

Oh, crying out loud!

@Amrun: Thanks, I was just not paying attention.

Spoiler: sapo

Meransiel: asking for PRs at this point is pretty bad, imo. I seriously don’t think we’re going to be able to crack the puzzle of the neighborhood today. IT IS A MYSTERY.

I obviously asked for it to study

night-play perspective

. The earlier, the more nights of info we can get.

I’m pretty sure he means the people who voted for you based on the PR-fishing.

I know what he meant. I don't see how that invalidates my suspicion of MoI.

Spoiler: Yosarian

Who said anything about "hidden layers of undisclosed logic"? You are responding, and that's how we can get a read on you. If someone is under zero pressure and nothing they do is questioned or attacked, it's usually a lot harder to tell what their alignment is.

I am not talking about pressure and questions in general. I am talking about the repeated way you guys ask me "why did you suggest that?". DUDES. ASKED. AND. ANSWERED.

Um...yes, a cop with neighbors would be crazy strong. That's true if he's in an "all town" neighborhood or not, though; a cop with neighbors would likely investigate them first, and then if one is scum, communicate all his results with whichever one is town.

Um...no. If a cop finds one of his neighbors is scum he stays the fuck away from the quicktopic. Difference in value.

Eh. Possibly, although there's a lot of WIFOM involved. The idea, though, of "let's just have the power roles claim so we get a little bit of dubious WIFOM data from the scum killing the outed power role" seems unwise at best.

Works for me.

You kidding? That's a HUGE change that would badly hurt the town. Every VT that's outed dramatically increases the odds of the scum killing the real power roles. (And, no, I don't consider a neighbor with no other power to be a "power role.")

All them being VT, as I stated before, is something verifiable via investigation.

If you think that we should lynch one of the neighbors today, say so, and say why

Read my damn posts. I DON'T want to lynch neighbors today. I want to get info that, through night interactions, would tell me IF lynching neighbors is a good idea for later.

There's no reason for him to do so before that point.

Same as above.

If you don't intend to get them lynched today, then it's a REALLY bad idea to try to get them to fullclaim today.

Same as above.

Spoiler: DH

His early game unwillingness to discuss Hydra.

This only makes sense as a scumtell if Hydra was also scum. But you don't suspect Hydra. Hence, wtf.

His RVS (or what I assume) on Parama, then backing off without any real scum suspects when the game was in full speed suspicion mode.

I already explained. I didn't know what he meant, and wanted a clarification. I didn't deem that productive nor scumhunting-like nor RVS. I just wanted to know, and slapping someone with a vote makes the knowledge come faster.

Also, his unwillingness to join the kondi (or, rather, ANY other wagon) to scumhunt or pressure.

I didn't like any wagon that was forming. Problem?

He has a trend of picking up an argument for a post or two, then putting it down and forgetting it forever. He asks questions in which he never uses the information. It just seems too spaced out and hollow.

If I followed up on all my thoughts, many meta-related, all my posts would be chapter-of-a-novel-sized. You can't know in advance if something you say is going to be useful or not.

Why would masons want to lynch one of the masonhood? They wouldn't, so it rang as very strange.

I already fucking explained that.

Spoiler: Hrezs

We should judge them based on their play normally without the whole confirmation bias aspect of it.

Why?

It was clearly role fishing.

God, you just don't get it, do you?

Spoiler: AGM

1) It's been an excellent discussion

What did you gain from it, specifically? Well, except:

Great arguments; can you talk about something else now? You're zoning in on this too much. Scumpoints.

Trapped this guy on purpose, me says.

Justify your accusations.

He did. Answer to them instead of bs'ing. Because this:

Maybe it's confirmation bias, but something about the timing and positioning of this vote really grated me. First, he says the rolefishing doesn't matter. How is that remotely sane? Second, if not the rolefishing, how does the vote relate to the quote before it (post 154)?

Is bs.

This post is baaaad. It doesn't respond to any of the votes in any legitimate form - it just ad hominems.

Name ONE accusation made against me that I didn't respond to. I will be waiting.

People keep using this buzzword without any context. I'm not saying, "plow 'em all down" - I'm saying it's a solid, small pool to look for scum in. Example: if you have two competing cop claims, you lynch until you hit the liar. It's easy because you have a small pool of people in which one is probably lying. This is the same thing except it's not as surefire ... but it's still solid. Most neighborhoods include scum, so if one of them is acting scummy, you've got a really high chance of nailing sucm in that tiny pool. There's no reason not to take that.

If you're so convinced zoning in on them is a good idea, you should be the very first to call of the wagon on me as stupid. Because I'm the one encouraging we put the neighbors under further scrutiny. And my claiming proposition would only go kinda wrong (not really) if ALL neighbors were town. You don't believe all neighbors are town. Me neither. So what the hell are you doing?

(probably Snow White, she only has one post and it's pretty bad (defends Meransiel))

Llaaame.

[Meransiel]

EDIT: at DemonHybrid above, the "you" is not referring DH, but was impersonal.

[Meransiel]

Also for people who don't know how to read: if AGM is scum then Sensfan is town. If that happens I'm blacklisting sensfan.

[Meransiel]

@Meransiel - Do you think I am scum?

No, I have a null on you. But through your behavior I deduced that IF you are, sensfan is not your partner. Anyway, I'm much more convinced on MoI right now. And Iecer.



@sensfan: Because I blacklisted a dude that self-hammered as town, and you're MORE useless than him.

[Meransiel]

Petro, why do you think something is awesome and other people would do it just because you did it? And I was genuinely dazzled by MoI's style of play, because in the first game we played he had 8 scum reads by page 10 and voted me for ASKING FOR A VOTECOUNT.

Also, what good all that subtly planting ideas in advance if I was the one to follow up on them, not somebody else, later? As you can see, I am obviously the one wanting a more ample scrutiny on the neighbors, and I am obviously the one calling MoI scum and voting him.

Btw, this:

3.) That said, this post doesn’t do Meransiel any favors:

Because a PR sharing all his results with a full-town neighborhood at night just in case he would be dying the night he does it is VERY broken. VERY. I know that works only for investigative roles, protective roles and roleblockers, but...whait, no buts, that's almost all of them!

It reads to me like scum who might be making a backhanded complaint about potential “imbalance” that favors Town.

This is bullshit. Of the worst kind.

Fixed some quote tags.

-Amrun

[Meransiel]

Yes, petro, I know this is a game of wits and speculation, but you don't get to say such a thing and expect me not to be insulted.

[Meransiel]

And...why am I wrong?

[Meransiel]

1. You're complaining that I'm not defending you enough? I don't see it as a great scumtell - I don't see it as a town tell though, and I certainly don't see it as nebulous enough of a scumtell to advance any of my slot's credibility in your defense.

I said nothing about defending me. Why, you can only play by having 1 suspect at a time?

2. Iec (I'mma start a new wagon) is scum? Yeah...no. You also ended your post calling Iec out for a towntell and then are going to slip that in...whu?

I...what? I called Iecer scum. And gave reasons why.

they said all the conversation happened prior to game start

Oh God no...

[Meransiel]

I can't defend against that. Please forget I even said it.

Damn I'm such an idiot...

[Meransiel]

@mod: If I am alive, I may or may not ask to replace out Day 2. Just thought I'd let you know in advance.

I'm not on a pc now so I can't quote or write a lot, will do tomorrow. Just 2 small things before I leave.

@moi: You missed the fucking point. I didn't fucking say you played better or worse in superheroes. I just pointed out the noticeable difference in playstyle between that and this. Learn2read.

@Hydra: About the dialogue reenactment thingie...you're straight on. That's why I'm currently hitting my head with my fists.

[Meransiel]

Is the part of my post where I state that not being on a pc prevents me for posting much in Vietnamese?

Also, the meta thing was a minor point. I had to comment on it as part of my defense against pj's accusation that I say 'hollow' things which I then forget to plant ideas into the town. It is not a part of my case against you.

[Meransiel]

Spoiler: MoI

Because if you are Town asking that any Power-Roles in the Neigbhorhood to claim Day 1 is a bad / stupid idea. Sorry, it is.

This is a Mafia game. The Mafia has an intrinsically higher amount of information with which to make decisions. No matter how ‘smart’ you think claiming Day 1 PRs from those slots is to help make “is there scum in the Neighborhood” the scum are going to benefit more from that sort of claiming. That’s common Mafia knowledge.

Oh God, you're SO going to apologize for saying this after the game is over .

No, it isn’t. Do you understand what chaining lynches is? I’ve just come of having to explain this to Hezlucky in Jungle Republic.

Chaining lynches is saying “If Meran flips Town we are lynching Player X, Player Y and Player Z in that order no matter what”.

What I’ve done is provided relational tell information that may be useful down the line if you are indeed Town.

No, what you did was:
1. Pretty much publicly announce that I will be lynched way before all those people. And before you.
2. That you will NOT look further and pressure the people on my wagon if I don't flip/if I flip scum.

Sorry, but that's a DAMN good way to keep yourself alive all game.

This is so blatantly wrong I don’t even. How I am setting someone as Town? I don’t know if you are Town or not. But if you are Town then someone scum jumped in that group of 5. I’d even make an avatar bet based on that set of circumstances.

Lolno. You thought, and in detail at that, what route to go through if I'm town, and ONLY if I'm town. And that route implies no townreads on anyone, maybe but yourself. And, above all that, you called me a strong Null. Am I the only one seeing something wrong here?

1. Regarding protective or roleblocking roles – sharing their targets is broken how? Neither of those roles gets any mod confirmation of their success or failure (in all games I’ve ever been in here, anyway).

So if you roleblock somebody and there's no night kill...are you just going to call it a coincidence? Lolfail.

2. In the case of investigative roles you do understand that Mods give then out AFTER they tell the investigative role whether they are dead, correct? That’s how I wasn’t able to share the Regfan was caught scum the Night I died in Superhero Mafia.

That's not important. Let's say it is night 3 and on nights 1 and 2 the Neighbor Cop, which is UNCONFIRMED in-thread, got innocent results. So he will say this:

"Ok, neighbors, because I could die this night, what with me being an awesome poster and scumhunting a lot, you must tell the town something if I'm not here anymore: players X and Y are town, I got the results to prove it."

See that? Broken.

Spoiler: AGM

1) Intentionally trapped SensFan

That's not a scumtell. It's simply an anti-bus tell. I like trapping people.

2) Ignored justifications in thread, 4) Posted BS

You're not the only one doing those.

5) have lame arguments against Snow White

I didn't protect Snow White with that post. I just don't understand how does me being scummy from your point of view make everyone who doesn't have the same point of view scummy. It's bad logic.

How does that NOT equate to a scum read?

Just like you, I am almost sure 1 of the people in the neighborhood is scum. For the reasons above, IF you thought all the neighborhood was town, I would have a scumread on you (but Magna would still be my scummier read). But, since you agree with me on that, if you WERE scum, you would be doing something directly detrimental for scum, possibly for towncred, but possibly because you genuinely believe it is a good idea.

Therefore, as the chances of you being scum or town are, to me, not tipped one way or the other, you're null. Problem?

From my perspective, this looks a lot like scum trying to discredit town without actually investing themselves in fully calling people out (and being responsible for a mislynch).

You can only say that if you think I'm bussing MoI. Which you don't.

which is why I dislike people who said it was a waste of time

Then we'll agree to disagree on that.

So you're suggesting that his contention that some of the people on your wagon must be scum proves that he is trying to set up a mislynch?

Yes. And the insistence that implies we'll have my lynch pretty soon. And the tone that implies he won't go after those people unless I die first.



Earworm is regurgitating arguments like a pro. I wish I had two votes right now.

[Meransiel]

Parama, are you saying that I fluff and spam or what? Because I don't think so.

[Meransiel]

What does MoI's comment have to do with the neighborhood? His argument/assertion was that your wagon had scum...

My wagon contains the whole neighborhood. Hence.

The link between Yos's quotes and your responses to them are sometimes a little weak.

Specifically?

This, in regardins the Meran having a Null on AGM.

Asked and answered.

In regards to the bolded – um what? Have you gotten into the crazy pills Meran because my statement says nothing in the least about that. I have a good number of Town reads currently. You aren't one of them.

That's not the point. If I flip Town, you will get a whole bunch of new scum reads, but no new town reads. And I find that suspicious.

Oh wait, they don’t. Lolfail indeed.

It doesn't matter. It's important information that can be used after a massclaim happens and the doctors out their night targets.

Explain this to me?

Asked and answered.

Meran, why did you bring this up anyways?

Sapo said he didn't like MBL's posts. I disagreed with him.

@Meran - please explain how you did this as "town" and why we shouldn't be speed lynching you, and why I shouldn't be screaming at everyone to lynch you na0w.

You should. I have no excuse for that.

[Meransiel]

But I'm not a scum.

I simply can't make up a defense for that.

[Meransiel]

And since people are barely noticing this whole case form, and I'll have a decent chance of death via murder - this would make at least one neighbor scum as well.
Thank you.

Why would anybody want to kill you? You are a decent player, but you don't have a lot of suspicions, and I believe your actions pretty much obviously come from a [REDACTED].

[Meransiel]

*yawn*

I'd rather see MoIscum lynched. I'm too lazy to attack multiple people at once, anywho.

Then vote for him. I'll back up.

[Meransiel]

Oh, sorry. Still had the impression all neighbors were on me.

[Meransiel]

No, because people with only 2 or 3 scumreads are usually dead wrong, no matter how good their scumhunting. They'll let them live and make mistakes.

[Meransiel]

@Meransiel, at the time you rolefished the neighbors, how many scum did you suspect were in the neighborhood, and if any, who did you think were the most likely scum? Has your opinion changed since then?

Exactly 1 scum. If there were 2 revealing the neighborhood would've been plain suicide. At the time I suggested that, I was not sure who would be scum there, but as the thread progressed I narrowed it down to Parama and DH. And now, because I think MoI is scum, I am leaning less on Parama. Still not willing to lynch any of them.

Show me where Meran claimed scum?

It's where he brought up that thing with the towntell and I admitted I have no defense against it. I don't see why it's a scumclaim tho.

THOR, WHERE THE FUCK DID I ASK TO BE LYNCHED.

Fuck this, Thor is confirmed town from his behavior but DAMN if I don't feel the urge to crack his skull open.

[Meransiel]

Look, I think kondi's first post is a towntell in itself. Hard?

[Meransiel]

Hydra, I don't want the Town to lose, so instead of pushing my lynch like there's no tomorrow, we can do 2 things:

1. Push my lynch further, but NOT like there's no tomorrow.
2. We both replace out, and discuss the game.

Seriously, BOTH those options are more pro-town than what you're doing now.

[Meransiel]

Also, fuck smurfs.

[Meransiel]

PBuG! Oh, how much I missed you!

[Meransiel]

I wasn't talking about the same townslip as Parama.

[Meransiel]

@earworm: Yeah, well...both of them. Because if one Mason dies all the others are confirmed if they were revealed earlier in-thread. So it's tied.

I like the case pj made against Parama, ISO'd him again and some of his posts do strike me as odd.

@sapo: What do you find scumtastic about that post?

[Meransiel]

I'm...not really sure. Parama had his fair share of dubious actions, as much as PBuG gave good commentaries in his wall. I wouldn't want to choose between them though.

[Meransiel]

How is this not scummy? He's criticized for giving no reasons to be on a wagon, and his response is to be like YOU GIVE REASONS LOL. And what does "You don't seem thrilled to have company" even mean? It sounds like he's trying to imply something, but what is he trying to imply? And I just don't like MBL's style of posting throughout this game in general. He's basically just putting out a lot of noise. As I said, asking people a bunch of questions is not the same as scum-hunting.

So he sheeped existing information. That's the exact same thing Iecerint did with DH (and I do find the points against DH quite relevant). Hence, no problem.

And by the company thing, I think he's not implying, but accusing you of being scumpartner with sens. By what may look as dragging down his own wagon.
Sorry, but I really don't see the MBL as scum thing.

[Meransiel]

I don't understand how you think it is more pro-town of us to continue pushing a lynch on the one person you should know is confirmed town (yourself), but not quite as 'heavily' as has been done before. Could you explain this?

Well, me knowing that I am town, I realize that one player tunneling on me is one less player actively playing on me. While one player simply attacking me as a side thing while having other leads and suspicions can also dispute people that DON'T enter my wagon, that on flimsy terms, as scum know to stay away from mislynches. It's not the OPTIMAL thing, that, I agree.

I'm also interested in who your two strongest town reads are the next time you post.

As I said before, my main town reads are kondi, Yosarian and you.

Can you please explain your town read on Magna? Also, can you remove your vote from me, given your stance?

@Meransiel: Can you please clarify your current stances on Parama and DH?

I agree with the arguments made against both of them, and I don't strongly lean on either of them as a lynch. But I think that it is logically impossible for 2 of the neighbors to be scum at the same time (if that were true, Parama is an idiot for outing the neighborhood. Except Parama is not an idiot). So I don't strongly disagree with their wagons, but it wouldn't be a horrible idea for us to leave this alone until we can more accurately make a call.

[Meransiel]

EDIT: one less player actively playing the game

[Meransiel]

@hydra: We'll agree to disagree then. But I agree that it's unlikely more people will be joining me there...so yeah, maybe later.

Unvote

[Meransiel]

Hey, my scumgame sucks, I have to make it better. Hydra, that thing about MoI's conclusions as simple thought process is similar to why petroleum voted me. And nobody said anything against that.

I do find anybody basing a case, and more importantly, a game plan, especially someone as likely to be paid attention to as MoI, on someone flipping Town as distressing. Problem?

Also, I said I believed kondi's first post was the townslip.

Anyway, I'll ISO AGM and see if I can join the discussion.

[Meransiel]

Yeah...he didn't facefuck as much as Sensfan in the Hydra thing, but...

But reading his ISO I realized just how low the chance of Mafia in the neighborhood would be if AGM would flip scum. So yeah, great info.

Vote: AGM

[Meransiel]

@Meran - as you believe you are town, shouldn't MoI showing how scum could be attacking you help clarify for your own mind where scum are? What's the issue here?


For my own mind, I don't want to fucking die and flip, thank you very much.

[Meransiel]

I don't agree. It also exonerates him. I'm also very not dying.

[Meransiel]

I don't believe in the relational tell. I don't think someone is more scummier for being on my wagon.

[Meransiel]

People that are voting for silly reasons need to unvote, not be lynched. That's not a scumtell, not always. Also, I know it's incorrect.

[Meransiel]

3. I feel really stupid. I was under the impression that we were alignment confirmed. Haven't played any games in groups besides scum groups.

Ok, bolded for your convenience.

@earworm: *facepalm*
Also, yeah:

@mod: a prod on Sens would be very nice

[Meransiel]

About my ISO. Don't fucking ask.

Anyway, here's the point up there:

If you're scum in a neighborhood, YOU CAN'T FUCKING THINK YOU'RE ALIGNMENT CONFIRMED. And that's too original of kondi to fake.

[Meransiel]

Also:

@mod: I said I may or may not replace out on Day 2. If I do, am I allowed to send a couple PM's to the guy replacing me?

[Meransiel]

Hrezs's vote for DH makes sense. Many people would jump on rolefishing, so yeah, reasonable wagon. And if you look hard into it, the neighbors themselves started the wagon, and I don't want to lynch neighbors. Why should he?

Iecering throwing things around without purpose.

[Meransiel]

Hresz's behavior has special meaning for me because I suspect him, and I'm reflecting on whoever's question from earlier about Parama v. DH.

So basically when you're analyzing his posts your point of view is biased, you're saying here?

[Meransiel]

Hrezs had only 4 posts, and they've all been composed purely of scumhunting. I don't see the point.

[Meransiel]

Oh, great catch. I'd like to hear from Parama too.

[Meransiel]

@mod: dude, post 222.

[Meransiel]

@Almaster: I explained why I have a null read on you, and why I have a town read on Yos.

[Meransiel]

I'm not seeing this Hzres thing, Iec.[/sapo]

^

There is nothing I can do with post 222. Please PM me the circumstances.

Now that you told me I can't PM my replacement, I won't replace out. I was just making fun of your limited memory span, because I am a mean and bitter man.

@Yos: The wagon on him is the largest, so nobody is stopping you.

[Meransiel]

Time is running out, be quick about it.

[Meransiel]

I am voting a null read because it's not so null anymore, but that's not the main reason. I have come to buy the AGM case more recently, but as I said, the most important thing is that AGM's flip is extremely informative. This is a Large, so that's not the most suboptimal compromise ever.

I believe one of Parama or DH is scum, DH is clearly lurking while posting everywhere else on the site, of Parama I'm not very sure. In this respect, I agree with most of the reasons made against both of them, and I am slightly leaning DH, but would rather put a vote there when I know for sure (i.e. not today).

SensFan...well...he's a though one. From the very beginning I explained both the town and the scum motivations inherent to his play. Now I'm not so sure of those either. A replacement would be really nice there.

My scumread on MoI is going down right now, I don't think it's much of value. And because my suspicion of Iecerint was directly linked to that, well...


All in all, I'm kinda puzzled.

[Meransiel]

Pardon, sir, I was fence-sitting on the neighbors from the beginning of the game.


I'm in no way "convinced" of the case. As I said, his flip has informative value. And because my reads suck, that's what I have to work with.

[Meransiel]

Sens, do you think anyone else is more scummy than AGM? If not, who's your number 2?

[Meransiel]

I feel like the DH wagon is being misconstrued as several of us thinking one person out of the neighborhood must be scum, when several of those comments were from people who aren't actually on the wagon (in my memory, at least, correct me if I'm mistaken). My vote for DH is for a combination of blatant lurking, the kondi nonsense, shitty logic, and his post stating that Meransiel flipping as scum would clear the neighborhood.

A vagon made for good reasons is good even if the reasons people JOIN it for are shitty.

What you're saying here is useful for analysis tomorrow, rather than today.

[Meransiel]

@DH: I don't think Hrezs was that opportunistic with his hop on the wagon, certainly not enough to warrant him being the very scummiest player for you. So I don't condone voting for him.

However your reads are consistent and similar to mine (with some differences, like parama lower and yos higher, and obv me and hrezs not that low, meh), so I'll have to think about it.

[Meransiel]

You say this as if it is some good sort of defense. It’s not.

The timing of the post I quoted is possibly very scummy given the manner in which it addresses your ‘read’ on DH.

My reads on the neighbors, whatever they may be, have nothing to do with the fact I don't think lynching any of them is a good idea. Don't try tying it up.

Meran I’m going to ask you right off and am not intending this to be an insult – is English your first language.

Because the post of PBug’s you are quoteing has absolutely nothing to do with future analysis. PBug is presenting a concise list of reasons why he finds DH scummy. Most all of which I agree with.

The fact that you try to say PBug’s comment is useful for the future and not today is so unrelated to the actual content of PBug’s post I am having a hard time deciding what to think of your post.

Then you obviously didn't read PBuG's post. He was stressing out the fact people joined the DH wagon for flimsy reasons. I said the analysis of that can wait until after DH flips. I don't see the problem.

Meran gets lynched and he flips scum. There is absolutely no doubt that what he asked of Parama and I was an attempt to stir up doubt about how we view each other, and an attempt to pit the rest of the town against the neighborhood.

Thereis absolutely no doubt about a wifomtastic perspective? Lol.

@AGM's post - Yeah, twas stupid, scumpoints.

[Meransiel]

Kondi, for fuck's sake, stop being an antitown obvtown.

[Meransiel]

I think he's talking about your post where you said that people were discrediting the DH wagon s/p misunderstanding/misrepresenting the basis of the wagon.

Yes, but where in there did I claim that people were joining the wagon for flimsy reasons? My point was that everyone was

claiming

that people were joining the wagon for the flimsy 1/3 neighborhood is scum argument when my point was that I was under the impression that wasn't a basis for the wagon at all.

Well...oh. Sorry, thanks for clarifying.

[Meransiel]

Thereis absolutely no doubt about a wifomtastic perspective? Lol.

Wow! You're right, I said absolutely nothing about how that would only be true if you flip scum, therefore making your motivations very clear! You have an awesome, logical argument, good sir!

Lol even if I was scum that's far fetched.

[Meransiel]

@Amrun - your setup is broken - there should be more than one town for games to be balanced.

Lol, that is actually a very decent joke.

Also, MBL being very consistent and town. As expected.

[Meransiel]

Sorry for being unable to contribute lately. I didn't have access to a PC.

Hammer was king though.

[Meransiel]

Guys, I will put a very simple question.

Consider I am not an idiot. Why would I want the neighbors to out their PRs day 1?

Please answer this, it is important.

[Meransiel]

Meransiel, you're town.

No need to explain yourself further.

I NEED TO EXPLAIN MYSELF FURTHER. NOW ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION!

[Meransiel]

@Meransiel

, same question.
.

I should make my answer to that obvious in the next post.

[Meransiel]

@Meransiel

, same question.
.

I should make my answer to that obvious in the next post.

My next post:

@Iecerint: Claim now.

[Meransiel]

I obviously have reasons to think you're scum, and if I told you what reasons, you would know how to bullshit your way out of it.

[Meransiel]

I'm confused right now.

Tr

ue, that's legit, we should only lynch from the neighborhood if the neighbors themselves feel like it's legit.

A

nd/or if we get some night info, of course.

C

ould result in quite a catch, a 3 town neighborhood is too good anyway.

K

ondi, when you stop sitting on your ass, can you tell us exactly what's been said?

E

verything helps.

R

eally.

Magna was not a bad target for the mafia, but.....I looked at your ISO, and you NEVER mentioned SensFan. Ever. I'm still confused.

[Meransiel]

I would have dismissed the "Sensfan as non-town kill" had you not be the one killing him. Really, I usually don't trust it when claiming vigs use "lots of players expressed suspicion", without suspicion of their own.

[Meransiel]

No -- it can't even be his role. Which is why I am voting for him.

As explained in the Normal Guidelines, roles that can change somebody's alignment are explicitly forbidden in Normal Games. mastin2 just claimed a role that changes somebody's alignment from Serial Killer to Town. Therefore, either the set-up is illegal, or mastin2 is lying. I suspect the latter, although I have also sent the Mod a PM to confirm to us whether this set-up is legal for the purposes of a Normal Game.

Our luck is astonishing.

Vote: Mastin

Doctor on me, please.

[Meransiel]

Vote: Mastin

I WONDER WHO I SHOULD KILL NOW THO.

Try....NOBODY.

At least for 1 night.

[Meransiel]

That won't do much good :/

Won't do much bad either.

The ONLY vig kills I would condone are you or DemonHybrid anyway.

[Meransiel]

At the time of that question, Iecerint.

Now, Parama or Demonhybrid.

And I will ask again, for the sake of it:

@everyone in the neighborhood: Do. You. Have. Any. Powers?

If you are doctor or powerless, please claim powerless. If you are not doctor nor powerless, please claim your power. And your target. And I will track you to see if you are telling the truth. Is it. That. Hard. To. Understand?

[Meransiel]

Meransiel, that's still a bad question. Even though you're a claimed tracker (which I will note does not necessitate you being Town, though I am presuming you are Town for today), now that you've claimed we also have to presume you have a high chance of not getting useful results if there exists a scum role-blocker. Alternatively, you might die overnight. And in either of those cases, having the Neighbors claim to sate your curiosity isn't really going to help us.

1. If I am roleblocked, I will obviously know that.
2. Almost all games that have a serial killer have a doc. And this is a Large. So nah, I don't think I will die.
3. Dude, I knew exactly what Iecerint did this night. We are either scumbuddies or we are both confirmed town.

[Meransiel]

I just wanted to note this quote that is MBL saying he doesn't obfuscate as town after 200 obfuscating walls.
The questions are what catch scum. I'm undefeated as town since returning to MS (and I found at least 4 scum in the game I just got modkilled in.), primarily because I ask scum the questions that are difficult to answer. My old thought was that posting my stream of consciousness thoughts on who I think might be scum was helpful to town. I'm learning that most people here consider those to be useless and annoying.

FWIW, I don't agree, I like your style now, but it was even better before.

Fixed tags... I think. -Amrun

[Meransiel]

@Mod: Sorry for the quote thing, again. Can you ?

[Meransiel]

Link me to a game with a scum tracker. I will wait.

[Meransiel]

Oh, damn...

[Meransiel]

Damn my prejudices...

[Meransiel]

If there is scum in the Neighborhood, I doubt you'll find them by having them claim it first. Scum will change who performs the kill so that you don't catch them, or scum will disable you.

If a real power role outs and is killed, it is obvious that there is no scum in the neighborhood, otherwise they wouldn't take the risk. If a fake power role outs, I can catch him. If nobody says power role, then nothing really changes, cause that doesn't really narrow it down much for scum: I am outed, you are outed, the alien is dead, and I am a strong enough power role that town doesn't have roles stronger than mine (a game having both a tracker, an alien, a vigilante AND a cop is very meh).

[Meransiel]

Mastin is a very weird dude.

unvote

It is nice to have 4 towns though.

[Meransiel]

@Mastin: Why did you have a scum read on PBuG?

@Parama: Can you at least pretend to comment on some of mastin case? Pretty please?

[Meransiel]

It's called intuition, Parama. You can figure out that you're in a 1-1-1 setup the exact same way I did, and realize that if people think it's 1-1-1, you're screwed.

Demon could do the exact same thing.

It'd be an unspoken word in the QT--never brought up, not mentioned so much as a single time. Both wouldn't necessarily think the other was thinking about it, but both would be thinking about it individually.

This is horrible. I don't know if it qualifies as contradicting yourself or not, but it's horrible nonetheless.

However, with 4 innocents (at least as of today), and because I don't think saporo is scum for the reasons in-thread, and with at least 5 anti-town roles imposed by the existence of a serial killer, I think it is not such a horrible idea right now to lynch neighbors. Parama or DH.....hm...DH makes more sense, but that doesn't HAVE to be a towntell....

[Meransiel]

By the way, I wonder what Hydra has to say about today and last night.

[Meransiel]

1. If I am roleblocked, I will obviously know that.

Are you sure? I don't have mod meta, but roleblocked can come back as 'no result' and if the person goes nowhere it can be a 'no result' as well.

That would be bastardly.

[Meransiel]

I have to say that I LIKE DemonHybrid's attitude on the last too pages. Just the right amount of level headedness. And Parama didn't give a damn about responding.

Vote: Parama

Mod: I will be V/LA for the next 7 days.

[Meransiel]

Back, will read. And, if I give a fuck, I will also answer. Like, tomorrow. Probably...or not.

[Meransiel]

Am I the only one thinking that Yosarian won the argument? Whatever.

I am down for the Hrezs wagon. His posts of content have mainly been things others have already argued aaaand flakiness.

vote: Hrezs

PJ: You're killing me.

I also think this post is VERY bad and opportunistic. But Parama is still a better lynch.

[Meransiel]

It is funny how badly Parama wants to lynch me.

Meran 296 – Narrowed it down? Didn’t kondi townslip? That’s no fault of your own, yet you seem to be saying you did some sort of work to “narrow it down”. Maybe a bit nitpicky but still.

+1

.

Well yeah kondi's townslip narrowed it down.

Meran 298 – This post is useless. No elaboration, just making random claims.

+1

.

Random claims that happen to be correct.

Meran 302 – You’re both advocating your lynch and trying to halt an argument with an attacker. What is this abomination.

+1

.

I knew I was unlynchable Day 1 because of my claiming Tracker. So obviously running me down like that would be detrimental to town .

Meran 308 – And thanks for telling us what townslip you WERE talking about. <_<

You're welcome. Now get some glasses.

Meran 317 – “Oh hey someone made a decent length something-like-a-case on someone. Saying this will allow me to come back to this wagon later.” This is the feeling I get from this post, dunno about anyone else.

+1

.

Um, yes...and?

.

Meran 338 – Something about the line “Also, can you remove your vote from me, given your stance?” is really bugging me… I remember a similar post in the previous few pages (no I will not read back to find it, screw you). Seems more self-interest than anything. Sirens are going off now.

+1

.

Trackers shouldn't have a higher self-interest than townies in general? What gives?

God this page is like a theory battleground. That Meransiel is saying “Just because someone is attacking me doesn’t mean they’re scum” is giving off a slight towntell, because scum would have less incentive to say that than town would. Just FYI, Meran, in a 18p game, statistically, a wagon of 5 players will contain 1 scum, assuming there are 4 scum or more (which is almost a guarantee).

-1

.

Nice backtrack there, I expect to be back to 0 by page 30.

Not a specific post that I want to point out but it’s like… as soon as people stopped pressuring Meran… he started acting way more townie and I like him a lot more now. Still doesn’t fully remove suspicion but we’ll see how it goes from here.

-1

.

I love being right. Especially since my posting style didn't really change on that page. Or I am probably the only person on the forum who thinks that flailing is not a scumtell. Ohwell.

Meran 458 – Holy crap it’s like nobody is even TRYING to push this wagon, they all know it’s gonna go through, there’s no stopping it, and there’s no reason to put their lives on the line for it. I bet every single scum at least paid lip service to the AGM wagon.

+1

.

I didn't like AGM too much, you know.



This will sound like OMGUS, but I am not moving my vote from there no matter what he posts. But his death must not come until after he posts all his analysis.

[Meransiel]

Shanba, why didn't you say that earlier? It feels like you're last-minute white knighting him.

But for what it's worth, I do think sapo's attitude today is indeed scummy.

[Meransiel]

@Yosarian: I don't really understand why you think Shanba is townier than MBL and Hydra. Care to expand on that?

[Meransiel]

He scumslipped and revealed his buddies, perhaps?

I have town reads on Hydra and MBL, so I hope not.

[Meransiel]

Crash, stop having useless osts and give me your read on sapovirus.

[Meransiel]

*posts

[Meransiel]

Yosarian, my question. Needs answering.

[Meransiel]

Well, I...actually still lean town on Yos.

[Meransiel]

CrashTestDummie's way of not reading most current pages looks very townish. Though I will ignore the content of his posts (if you ask, yes, I read them).

[Meransiel]

Bowser replaces Parama, effective upon posting.

This is a good thing.

[Meransiel]

^This strengthens the scumteam I proposed.

Unfortunately, I...agree with this.

[Meransiel]

...Yeah...

I'm not sold on Shanba, yet. (Heavily, HEAVILY leaning towards it, of course.)

But Yos?

Sealing the deal with every post he makes.

I'm thinking the reverse. I think Shanba is scummy and because Yos sees him as town...yeah.

[Meransiel]

Pj, your opinion on Shanba please? I feel he's just as reactive.

[Meransiel]

Funnily enough, it looked that way from the way KJ posted.

As in, KJ's stance on the game seemed like that of a scumbuddy of Parama's.

I'm not so convinced about that, myself. There's nothing wrong with KJ's posts.

[Meransiel]

Either way, I'm not advocating a KJ lynch today.

[Meransiel]

Shanba is scum. .

I'm glad you guys agree.

Unfortunately I will be

V/La for 6 days, starting tomorrow.

[Meransiel]

Shocking.
Great job though.