NY175: Sycamore Scuffle

[Aegor]

/confirm

[Aegor]

/confirm for 1st game outside newbie town. Is there a setup/role list and/or do we know the town/scum ratio?

Nope. Muahaha! That is what makes the large normals so fun. Occasionally mountainous (only vanilla townies and scum) are run in the Large Normal Queue. You can find Open setups in the Open Queue.

[Aegor]

I have been informed that some of the players signed up for this game haven't logged on in over a month. I'm going to start on replacing them immediately.

EDIT: Salamence20 replaces DukeC, and TheAdrienC replaces lifessavers.

LOL. Your game will start for real eventually!

[Aegor]

VOTE: Wake88 for obvious reasons.



Scum, if you want a quicklynch, run up reinoe.

[Aegor]

So you think wakes comments there after is scummy....why?

Because they perpetuate the nonsense that he posted in his initial post (50, I think).

[Aegor]

Why do you think scum would vote reinoe if they wanted a quicklynch? They don't have a single vote against them, as far as I can tell. I would think scum would moreso want to join in on the wake88 wagon, if he's town.

Skim the first four pages.

[Aegor]

Everyone

: If you are responding to a particular post, please quote it instead of merely bolding names. It makes it very difficult to follow the thread when you do not know what people are responding to.

[Aegor]

Especially

Alina

.

[Aegor]

General call for a policy lynch on SKOT unless he sets aside his moronic policy of pressing for claims on policy at L-1 regardless of whether someone is willing to hammer legitimately.

Please respond to this directly if you would be willing to PL him unless he relents.

So you think wakes comments there after is scummy....why?

Because they perpetuate the nonsense that he posted in his initial post (50, I think).

&@ sal:

I'm reading wake as bad town currently.
I would love to here abut more about scum motivation.

Scum motivation? The self-contradiction in 50 has been handwaved as "checking reactions." Do you need more detail? We all need to decide whether Wake is horrible at checking reactions (by telling us that is what he is doing) or scum trying to cover himself by hiding under a bogus defense. Right now, I think he is the latter. That could change. The game has not even been running for a day.

random.org=13
VOTE: vote Farside

Are you serious?

[Aegor]

Vote Aegor

... non-sense....but

this probably means you are town

but absolute bullying behavior meant to enforce and engage in group think and "borg mindset." (FYI for those that engage in HoS, this vote is meant at as slap in his face)

VOTE: SKOT

Also you have already been in games with me but do not know what has and has not finished.

How is that relevant? I am calling for a

policy

lynch. That

by definition

means that your alignment is irrelevant to me.

[Aegor]

which means you are playing against win condition. You call for policy lynch because I disagree with you is flat out stupid.

I am not calling for a PL on you because you disagree with me. I calling for a PL on you because you have a demonstrable pattern of objectively terrible policies that you have consistently refused to abandon that can screw the town over.

Rather then asking me nicely to reconsider my personal policy, you decide the best way is to puff yourself up and take out a bully stick. You signed into a game I signed into before you. You already know how I play.

Not when I signed up for this game weeks ago.

Here, you are deciding that a certain element of play is more to your liking and want to simply eliminate a player who disagrees with the strategy and gives fair warning about the difference.

The "fair warning" is irrelevant. Your approach is not merely a "certain element of play." It is a strategy that will fuck over town right in the ass. You are more than welcome to abandon your idiotic approach to L-1 wagons, and I will not push for your lynch on that basis.

A normal adult way to go about a disagreement like this is something like, hey, I know you see things differently, can you please not do that and try playing our way. No, rather you take a hyper-aggressive approach that is simply down right rude and aggressive. You would rather bully then to ask nicely. Persuasion to a different point of few and style does not come from taking bully stick. So knock the crap off.

If I asked you nicely, would you play differently?

[Aegor]

As much as I feel about snot as you do let's not start policy lynching people.

It is a large, so I am fine with a PL or two.

[Aegor]

I cannot be any different then I am and attempts to do things the "mafiascum" way for me end up mucky, so I have to do what I know to do.

All you have to do is vote legitimately, and not hammer for the sake of hammering. Is that difficult?

Now that does not mean I do not learn, but I have to do what I have to do. The whole "antitown" and "village idiot" labels are simply means of pushing a certain "style of play" and push toward a certain "group think."

So? Certainly "styles of play" are better than others. If I posted nothing but curse words and random unexplained votes, other players would rightly state that my "style of play" is not good.

and then I will actually hammer...
I am willing to compromise and give some time, say at least a day before engaging intent to hammer or do you all need 2 days?

No. I never want you of a L-1 wagon. So the only compromise I am willing to entertain is that you join a L-2 wagon automatically and see if anyone else is willing to place an

actual

vote.

But I detest the sitting back to play patty-cake.

What would "patty-cake" be?

[Aegor]

PEDIT: Okay I'll try and work with you here. To me, you've completely devalued any intent you can declare in this thread, because it's not intent to hammer, it's intent to draw out a claim. I don't find having everyone run up to L-1 at any point claim helpful, so I see no reason for anyone to honour your intent . If you make some sort of distinction between you wanting a claim and an actual 'traditional' intent to hammer then I'll honour the latter, but I don't see any benefit in honouring the former.

...which is exactly what I told him in a different game.

[Aegor]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Wake88

[Aegor]

You had better damn well tell us what those obvious reasons are, Aegor. I KNOW YOU'RE CLEVER, SO BACK THAT UP.

I did, especially in 161.

Also, what do you mean by telling Scum if they want a quicklynch they should run up reinoe? You and he could very well be scum partners, too, so pardon me if I take that with a cynical grain of salt.

Continue reading, and you will see what I mean. It was a joke, hence the emoticon.

[Aegor]

@HunterSeeker

: Please comment on your top scumreads and why you are not voting. Why unvote NM?

@Mirhawk

: Please answer Scarab's questions to you. How did Scarab display opportunism, and how do you feel about Scarab's other posts?

@Boonskiies, @BroodKingEXE, @Aeronaut

: Post.

[Aegor]

The walls...the walls...

Wow, Wake's post was long. I would not say it had that much content, though, probably because of its length. Wake, please just read the entire thread and comment after you are done.

I like Salamence's post. I still want to lynch Wake unless he tells us imminently what he gathered from his "reaction tests." His entire wall was just information instead of analysis (analysis = READS, if his entire goal was to elicit reactions).




If lurkers do not start posting, I will be pushing hardcore for their lynches.

[Aegor]

Sup

Post or die, beyotch.

[Aegor]

VOTE: Boonskiies

Caught any fish yet?

[Aegor]

Eh, that's what I felt when I was reading some of your posts. I also feel that in some posts you're trying really, really hard to look town and all exasperated and stuff, particularly your 187. Though that might just be the way you type sometimes, that's how it came across to me.

I am on the fence about this as well.

[Aegor]

Also, I would still be willing to lynch Wake.

What do you like about sal post? I never noted you as a language tell type, but I could be wrong?

It is aggressive and seems genuine.

[Aegor]

Im reaction testing

Was that an actual kill? I really hope so.

[Aegor]

You were never going to be NKed so that was a complete waste.

I hope that kill was real. Actually, I hope it even more if you are town.

[Aegor]

You were never going to be NKed so that was a complete waste.

I hope that kill was real. Actually, I hope it even more if you are town.

of course you do because you are an ASS

Right, because

I

am the problem here.

[Aegor]

I just said you are an ass. Actually an arrogant, prideful, narcissistic, aggressive, controlling bully. But hey, it is what it is.

Has it occurred to you that what you consider to be arrogance, pride, narcissism, aggression, control, and bullying are actually just manifestations of frustration that

you consistently choose the worst possible course of action conceivable?

That maybe the problem is not with me, but rather with your mind-boggling incompetence and generally inability to do anything that is not total shit?


I literally have no more motivation to continue this day.

[Aegor]

VOTE: SKOT

[Aegor]

Why would anyone run him up for Dayvigging you? Your alignment is irrelevant.

[Aegor]

That is like saying that someone is scummy simply by virtue of being on a mislynch. It makes no sense.

[Aegor]

And by the way, SKOT should be lynched regardless of his claim. Even if he is a Tracker, I would put the probability at 100% that he would out other PRs if he tracked them.

[Aegor]

Why do you assume this is multiball, Salamence?

He said why: there is a Tracker. That would let someone check both teams of scum based on NKs.

[Aegor]

Mod meta: Toomai's Mini Normal did NOT have the multiball conditions. It did have the SK condition, and there was no SK.


That being said, I would say there is a greater than 50% chance of more than one anti-town faction.

[Aegor]

@SKOT if you claimed because you thought there might be a doctor then what is the relevance of the gambit?

It does not exist. SKOT is irrational/incoherent.

[Aegor]

I want to lynch SKOT more than ever.

[Aegor]

The most I would be willing to wait is until tomorrow, to see if he gets vigged tonight.

[Aegor]

This game is

NORMAL

people. There

are

no Jesters.

[Aegor]

Although BP was joking, I know.

[Aegor]

@BP re:

424: Do you suspect Scarab for 208 because of the OMGUS? I do not really see the leaping off the wagon unless you are claiming that Scarab's vote on Mirhawk was an actual attempt to move off Wake, in which case I would ask you how you could know that.

Also, Scarab's vote on Mirhawk was clearly explained in the very post in which the vote was made.

[Aegor]

Finally, I would like to reiterate my desire to have SKOT lynched.

[Aegor]

I've also flipped in an ongoing open game.

Do not talk about ongoing games

, regardless of anything. The staff here are very hard-line on this. Consider this a warning.

Oh come on. It's an open game, so there is literally nothing that anyone can learn from me having said that I flipped in it that wasn't already 100% known. Don't be such a hardass.

Toomai is doing his job. It is site policy. I would be more than happy to report your post and let you see what happens if you prefer. Let me know.

[Aegor]

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

[Aegor]

Lurkers/VIs, so like half of this playerlist.

[Aegor]

I don't think I've done anything wrong and I'm stubborn enough to let someone take this higher up if they disagree.

Let me know how that goes, by the way.

[Aegor]

Everyone:


TOP SCUMREAD. GO.

Boosnkiies, for clear active lurking, self-voting, useless votes, and AtE.

[Aegor]

#2: Scarab (Making light of breaking the rules, general douchery)

Do you find Scarab scummy or lynch-worthy?

[Aegor]

I am caught up, but have no strong feelings about the most recent debates and BP v. farside etc.

Lurkers, please respond.

[Aegor]

VOTE: Wake

If you dont know who my comment was about, you dont deserve life

This is a bad vote.


The pissing match between Sala and Adrien is boring. I do agree with Sala, though: Adrien's posting feels incredibly fake, down to his manufactured vote on Sala. Either he has a totally inauthentic delivery, or he is scum. I am surprised that more posters do not feel the same way.


VOTE: HunterSeeker

[Aegor]

28 pages is actually really short for a day one given I'm a survivor of FE:A and NY169 and ran Tales, but sure.

This game is not easily summarized, but here are some highlights:

-Wake made some really weird opening posts, gets wagoned, responds that bizarre posts were "reaction tests"
-SKOT lays out his playstyle, which conflict with conventional wisdom
-BP and farside go back-and-forth
-sala and adrien go back-and-forth
-I am town

[Aegor]

Also I'm pretty much taking this as a mod multiball slip/confirmation. Assuming multiball until I see otherwise.

we been over this, it is dangerous to make such speculation. Mod meta indicates standard rules.

This post makes me very uncomfortable.

VOTE: Clusk

That's a scum replace out

I do not understand. Clusk is still in the game, right?

[Aegor]

@farside:

Is this the question you meant?

Another question. If this is your top scum read why are you not voting for him?

I do not always vote the person I find scummiest. This is even more true when there is a significant amount of time before deadline (18 days would qualify).

[Aegor]

Clusk is still in the game, right?

Clusk92 has requested replacement via PM.

Thanks. I was looking at the bottom of the VC.

[Aegor]

Current lynchpool:

{Wake, Boonskiies, SKOT, BroodKing, HunterSeeker}

[Aegor]

SKOT is like 95% PL.

[Aegor]

Aegor, you don't mention Clusk in that list at all. As a matter of fact, in your ISO you don't mention him at all until your question about him still being in the game in Post #769. Could you give an explanation/read on him?

I do not find him particularly interesting at the moment. My read is null. I disagree with his "manipulation" charge, but I did not find that push particularly scummy. I would be happy to review individual posts, though.

[Aegor]

Should I? Does Clusk have a history of replacing out as scum, or is the reasoning that the first few votes on him were enough to get him to replace out?

[Aegor]

Clusk had both direct pressure and indirect pressure. People were openly saying they would be willing to vote for him/were scumreading him. The timing of the replace-out doesn't look good.

I tend to agree. But given that I was kind of null on him prior to the replace-out, that alone is not enough to justify my vote on him at the moment.

Mod: Did Clusk specify any reason for replacement that is able to be disclosed?

[Aegor]

Mod: Did Clusk specify any reason for replacement that is able to be disclosed?

No, he did not specify any reason.

Thanks

is he seriously accusing boon of role fishing....for a scum role? bad vote.

I read it as a fish for Vig. Now I realize that it was probably a joke. Wow.



And yes, I absolutely loving PLing on Day 1. Especially lurkers, which always mess up my endgames.

[Aegor]

Feedback on 808 would be appreciated everyone.

Your post is super dense and long, plus about a townread. Most people will not be interested in providing feedback.

[Aegor]

May we please lynch HS now?

[Aegor]

Adrien continues his fake-sounding posting.

@Aegor yea, I want to lynch him too, but I feel like lynching a lurker at this point is much less beneficial than lynching someone who is much more likely scum. That being said, Clusk is indeed a lurker, but his slip ups and the timing of his replace-out show that signs point to scum... Or at least it seems that way to me.

Do you then not think that there is any case on Hunter beyond lurking? Why do you mention Clusk even though you are not even voting him? Why are you not voting anyone? Why is HS much less likely to be scum?

[Aegor]

I know this is not satisfying, but it is not something that you can easily describe or quantify. It is just that when I read your posts, they sound constructed, not organic.

[Aegor]

I do not. I think Hunter is just somebody who grew very disinterested in this game, and posts every few days to avoid a prod. Also, as was seen in his #8, this was his first name out of newbieland. So, he probably saw the game size, got overwhelmed, and decided he couldn't keep up with it.

Why is that more likely than scummy lurking? What posts suggest your theory instead of scum?

I've answered this question here. I'd quote it for you, but I'd probably mess it up.

That in no way answered my question. You have not explained satisfactorily why you are not joining the Clusk wagon, which is still far from lynch and therefore entails no real risk. You did not respond to others' questions about it (from Cabd, IIRC?). You also have not explained why you are not voting someone else in the meantime.

Vote someone in your next post. I cannot have players totally disengaged and waiting for a wagon to hop on when it is near lynch.

Well, I don't think HS is scum because of the reasons I posted to the first question, but why do I think Clusk is

more

scummy? Well Clusk gave a lot of actual posts with meaning in them near the beginning of the game, unlike HS. However, as soon as he got some pressure on him, he decided to lay low for awhile,

as scum tend to do.

Someone who was town would be more prone to defend his choices because if they are right, it would help the town, and in turn them.

Unless they get lynched anyway, but sure.

However, he just stopped talking completely, and when Farside finally called him on his shit,he immediately switched out of the game.

Does that not look scummy to you?

It does not look that much scummier than HS to me, no.

[Aegor]

Scarab, you're not making yourself look any better by overreacting to something that was barely an accusation. BP's just covering all the points. The fact that you felt the need to start making personal attacks on BP doesn't reflect well.

This is garbage. Way to suggest that

yet another

player is scummy while doing jack to push anyone or -- God forbid -- vote someone. What was the point of this post? What did it accomplish? What were your goals?

[Aegor]

Scarab, you're not making yourself look any better by overreacting to something that was barely an accusation. BP's just covering all the points. The fact that you felt the need to start making personal attacks on BP doesn't reflect well.

This is garbage. Way to suggest that

yet another

player is scummy while doing jack to push anyone or -- God forbid -- vote someone. What was the point of this post? What did it accomplish? What were your goals?

Also, Scarab made no personal attacks and clearly did not overreact. Please explain yourself.

[Aegor]

No more Wake for you?

[Aegor]

Alright, guess I'm not being clear enough. I haven't voted for anyone. Correct. Now the question is, why haven't I voted for Clusk or HS? I've explained my reasoning for both, but I'll spell it out simple so everyone understands.

1. HS looks like a stupid or disinterested town at this point. Why waste a vote on him?

Votes cost nothing. How would you be wasting a vote that you can change

at any time until lynch

by voting someone instead of no one?

2. For Clusk, I was going to wait for his replacement to say something, instead of jumping on a wagon that I think formed way too quickly.

3. There's 18 fucking days left in D1. And you're yelling at me for going to slowly? I'm sorry that I'm not ending the day fast enough for you to make your nightkills.

Did I ever yell at you for going slowly? no. Did I express disbelief and frustration that you are not voting? Yes. They are not at all the same thing.

By "yet another player", do you mean "a third player"? I'm scum hunting. I'm making sure of who I want to lynch before I tag along the wagon,

Except that joining a wagon is not the same thing as joining a lynch. Consider the number of wagons we have had already.

because I'm honestly not sure who needs to get lynched. You, and your scum buddy there, on the other and, seem to be

quite

sure of yourselves.

Voting does not mean you are 100% sure of who needs to get lynched.

For now, I will vote. This vote is subject to change, especially when/if Clusk's replacement makes a post. Basically, not voting hunter because I'm convinced he's just an idiot, but nothing more.

VOTE: Clusk

You may freely assume that every vote anyone places is subject to change unless specified otherwise (i.e. "This vote will not move").

[Aegor]

What claims would make a difference? Would we not lynch him if he claimed, say, doctor? Obviously the replacement would just claim that (or something like that) as scum anyway. I will hammer.

[Aegor]

vote clusk-

HS is typical mindset of what I am used to, makes sense to me, but hey, folks want to harp on the shit, what I am to say differently

What does this mean? Please be more specific.

[Aegor]

And risk letting scum live for another day with no guarantee that we will actually be able to verify the PR claim.

[Aegor]

Eh I prefer replacing into town slots. I only like being mafia from the start because I can shape the way people's reads are formed. It's one of the reasons I was so obvscum in KOTR mafia. Ask aegor. Or farside.

Although that game should suffer

damnatio memoriae

, it is true.

[Aegor]

Why bother speculating?

[Aegor]

VOTE: clusk

[Aegor]

feels soooooooooooooo good to Aegor....

[Aegor]

Adrien is THE lynch today. I will fight tooth and nail for this. So, please, just sheep me now.

VOTE: HunterSeeker

[Aegor]

VOTE: wake

You are annoying and full of BS and worse than useless (counterproductive, in fact). Plus scummy. I would gladly call for your vigging, but that is sadly probably out of the question snow.

...unlike Aegor. Why the naked vote, Aegor?

I do what I want.

Why is he alive?

Farside likely protected him.

Why?

It could be multiball, but unless the Vig messed up and killed her, how did Scum know to target her?

This is a dumb-ass question. Clearly, scum did

not

know to target her unless they had a day Role-cop and happened to target farside.

Also, I am confused as to how you deduce that there is another Vig just because one was on alternating nights. That does not follow at all. Many roles have such modifiers to weaken them.

However, how new is he? He could be Newbscum... or not.

What the hell kind of post is this? Anyone except ICs can be scum... or not.


Your horribad case on Juls makes me feel like vomiting from anger.



My guess is that there is an SK.

[Aegor]

And Aegor climbs higher on the Scum list. Feigned outrage,

arrogant

, refusing to answer questions, and generally anti-Town.

Oh no!

Tell me, Wake, do you own a mirror?

What have you even done this game, Aegor?

Do your own research, you donut.

You have

zero

good reason to vote for me, Aegor. Nor BP.

Maybe you should expend an ounce of effort and go through my ISO. Or read the thread. Both would tell you exactly why voting you is a great idea in more detail that you would be able to comprehend, clearly.

I'm disappointed that so many players are reacting badly to direct questioning. Shame on you for playing shitty, by actually trying to stifle inquiry, instead of promoting it and discussion.

Your questions are shitty and repetitive and useless. It is not my problem that you are incompetent.

[Aegor]

It is what I do. What you are doing does not come close at all.

[Aegor]

The point of being a good Townie is to ask questions and stimulate discussion. If that means pouring on the pressure, then that's what it's going to take.

Part of being a good townie is discerning where pressure should be applied. If you think that applying more pressure to Juls is a good idea, then your judgment is just bad.

All you're doing is teaching me that it's acceptable to be lazy and hide behind my ISO, instead of directly responding to direct questions which would in turn give you better reads. You're also teaching me that it's ok to fight questions, and discredit questions as crap, as if being transparent and straightforward is a bad thing.

No one is hiding behind an ISO. It is your responsibility to read this thread. No one has to answer the same question twice or present the same argument twice. That is what you are asking others to do.

[Aegor]

And it is, frankly, offensive that you think so little of others' time that you have no problem labeling as scummy or shitty players or anti-town those who have no interest in accommodating your laziness by rehashing content that they actually spent time on earlier in the game.

[Aegor]

When you point to your ISO instead of answering questions, you're hiding behind your ISO. Here, let's give you an example. Aegor: Don't ask me any more questions. Just read my ISO, because it's all there.

See how fun that is? See if that aggravates you in your Scumhunting travels.

It would not aggravate me,

because I would never ask a question to which that is a possible answer in the first place

.

Imagine, for a second, if I did the same things you're championing. But I don't, because I have no problem answering questions or helping people out with remembering stuff, because obviously no one's going to remember everything in a massive game with 21 players.

Then replace out or shut the fuck up.

[Aegor]

That was unnecessarily harsh.

Mod, please sanitize the last four words of my last post; or, I acknowledge that was out of line.

[Aegor]

OMG. Please die.

[Aegor]

VOTE: HunterSeeker

[Aegor]

I have noT attacked your personal life at all. I disbelieve that you were really vla but that is completely within the context of the game. You also logged in yesterday as I noted because your "last visited" when I was doing my catch up was yesterday (Saturday).

DROP IT. Logging in does not mean one has the time to post, and questioning others' V/LAs is completely inappropriate, as abusing the V/LA system for factional benefit is against the rules. If you think Adrien is cheating in this manner, bring it up with the mod. But it has

no place

whatsoever in this thread.

[Aegor]

Where is it against the rules? I have never seen that rule and personally don't think it should be against the rules. But, show me where and I will be glad to drop it. I have seen people scum hunt all the time by seeing who is online or in scum chat or last visited so I don't see how this is any different.

Read the activity rules for this game. Attempting to circumvent them via illegitimate V/LA is a clear violation. Furthermore, Site Rules prohibit bringing outside influences, of which this is most

definitely

one, into the game. You are more than welcome to poll mods on this issue if you do not believe me.

[Aegor]

So we're looking at 4 Mafia, 1 SK, and Even/Odd-Night Vigilantes?

No. If that were the case, we would have had three NKs.

What is your hard-on for two vigs all about, exactly? Why would you even think there is a second Vig?

[Aegor]

Usually when there's an "Even-Night" role, there's and "Odd-Night" role as well.

This is very much not true. Please dispel this erroneous notion ex stirpe from your mind.

I'm not saying there is, but I'm saying there

may

, which you seem to take issue with. You seem to neglect the possibility that our dead Odd-Night Doctor, Farside, may have blocked one NK attempt... or that a different role may have done so. Do you not think these things are at least possible? If not, why?

I have not neglected the possibility. I simply do not find them likely, which is what statistics tell me. And there is no point AT ALL in even discussing these issues in any context that would have an impact on this game because there is no way of knowing which of them is the correct one at this point.

If you care, I find the most likely option that there is no second Vig and two anti-town factions.

[Aegor]

What if Hunter

isn't

scum, and just used a random number to get reactions?

Then I suppose he will be allowed to live indefinitely, just like Wake, even though I would say there is a 0% chance we

ever

find out what "reactions" were elicited or how they were helpful. I say that the wagon should pick up speed.

[Aegor]

@Alina and Boon:

BOOOOOOOOO-RRRRIIIIIIINNNNNNGGG. Please stop your spat.

[Aegor]

For the record, my vote on HS has nothing to do with his "slip." I think 5 scum for 21 players is unlikely.

[Aegor]

Really? Do you think there are less? I was thinking there'd have to be 5 or 6..how many are typically in games this size?

I would expect four + an SK or two teams of about 3. Five is possible, I suppose; I should look into more normal setups for fun. The only other normal large I was in was mountainous and was 3 scum v. 14 townies or something.

[Aegor]

Really? Do you think there are less? I was thinking there'd have to be 5 or 6..how many are typically in games this size?

I would expect four + an SK or two teams of about 3. Five is possible, I suppose; I should look into more normal setups for fun. The only other normal large I was in was mountainous and was 3 scum v. 14 townies or something.

I stand by this, but there is a game that ended with 5 scum, so... Maybe 5 scum is offset by an SK.

[Aegor]

Also, why would I claim anything??? I'm not going to claim my role just because someone is voting me.

Let me just stick this right here in response...

tracker

[Aegor]

Alina, at this point you should just know that this game will be used as a case study in how to play as badly as possible in every way imaginable as town. I would divest emotionally.

[Aegor]

Calm...down...frantic girl...

I'm not a power role. I said don't role claim for you if you are a TPR, because I didn't want you yelling down my back for saying YOU JUST WANT ME TO CLAIM MY PR!!! yah blah dah da da...I could care less if you said you were vanilla.

Boonskiies, you are missing the point entirely. Now that you have claimed Vanilla, scum will NK someone else, who

could

be a PR. Town never wants to make it easier for scum to target PRs. And if you are a PR, then you lied, which is even more awful.

[Aegor]

Yeh it was a stupid move all right. Certainly doesn't make me want to move my vote off him.

You should move your vote off of him and onto HS. Boonskiies is town, and I do not change scumreads to townreads very often.

[Aegor]

PPPEDIT: No, you should stop voting HS aegor. He's town.

He is at best a liability.

[Aegor]

How is it more awful? Let's face it, I am not going to get NK'd because I am an easy bandwagon for scum. Simple as that. As a power role, hell yeah would to try and protect myself from a NK. I want to win. My vanilla claim is null, as it really proves nothing, and scum won't necessarily take it seriously.

Because it is a matter of rational convention that town should not lie about claims, because then the player in question is asking for faith to be placed in him

despite a proven history of lying

. You can understand why such behavior is strongly discouraged.

[Aegor]

In less subtle terms, I and many other players

lynch without hesitation and on policy

all players who change claims.

[Aegor]

OMG


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

And if I had lied about being vanilla, I'm not going to claim unless it will ultimately benefit the town. And with that, scum is out of the question on knowing what I am. Thanks.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THAT SHIP HAS SAILED? YOU CANNOT EVER ALTER YOUR CLAIM AND BENEFIT THE TOWN. WHAT PART OF THAT ARE YOU STILL NOT GETTING?

[Aegor]

I .......I just.....................

[Aegor]

See? It really doesn't affect anything. You have no way of being certain. And that's why it makes you mad, isn't it? Not sure if you should waste a NK on me now.

I hope someone does use an NK on you.

[Aegor]

Boonskiies, stop posting.

[Aegor]

This is an unmitigated disaster of a game.

[Aegor]

Please stop spamposting.

[Aegor]

He wants to lynch Hunterseeker for reasons other than that mafia count slip up

So...I am scummy because I have legitimate reasons for my votes?

and he hammered Clusk, after not once having voted him. Sure, he outright said he would hammer him

So...I am scummy because I do what I say I will do? Also, I did not hammer him. NM did. With a naked vote.

but the fact that he did it with no hesitation, to someone who flipped TOWN rubs me the wrong way.

So...I am scummy because I happen to vote town sometimes, just like everyone else on that wagon?

[Aegor]

Someone please explain to me why Damon_Gant is a superior choice to HS.

[Aegor]

HunterSeeker is a newb who has shown the potential to be better than what he is right now.

How would you know whether he has that potential, or that he would be willing to realize it?

This is his second game on the site and he comes from epicmafia and therefore may be overwhelmed by the game currently since this is a LARGE NORMAL.

Or he is scum actively lurking.

Damon Gant has extensive experience on this site. He is used to this site's metagame and previously played in Large normals. Furthermore he promised content and in the timeframe in which he was available failed to provide any.

I agree completely. But can we at least wait for DG to be prodded/replaced?

I'm torn between boonskiies who we have a strong reason to believe lied about his claim and HS who may have slipped that he knew how many mafias we have and I was pushing the lynch for last night phase. Aegor, you're pushing hard for the HS lynch: what is your read on boonskiies?

I was scumreading him Day 1 and now I am townreading him very strongly, despite his irritating and obnoxious posting. I would sheep me on this, at least for the moment.

After that, there seems to be a lot of.....nothing. He's very defensive, seems to offer very little content unless he's echoing someone else's ideas, asks vague questions of people, offers little to no reasonings on his scumreads.

Are you really asking for reasoning for my scumreads? It should be pretty clear why I am scumreading HS.

he gives Aero a hard time about not joining the Clusk wagon

I gave Aero a hard time about just fueling the fire from a distance. He was withholding his votes for no good reason. That is scummy, and exactly what scum often do: push for mislynches while staying at a distance from them.

Hunter - An easy target - could be very similar to the Clusk wagon

Just because a target is easy does not make it bad.

Aegor

, could you please provide an updated list of your reads (at least scum), and some solid evidence as to why you think they're scum?

None of the active posters are pinging my scumdar strongly other than Aero. I will review the Clusk wagon again; I generally get my info from there.

Current lynch pool:
HS
DG
Brood
Aero

Still need to sort Burning_town and BP.

[Aegor]

So you're telling me that it's scummier for me to hold back my vote and gather reactions, than it is for people like you to jump on the wagon as quick as possible?

False dichotomy.

Are we in backwards-world?

No; we are in Logic World.

Do you really think I would have taken so long to vote for Clusk if I wanted a quick lynch?

I am not asserting that you wanted a quicklynch. Withholding your vote is strictly anti-town unless one has some sort of voting modifier.

So, Aegor, I have a question for you. Why were you so quick to lynch Clusk? Why did he seem scummy to you? Link me to an earlier post if you need to, but I'm curious what was so scummy about him. I know why I thought he was scum, but why did you, Aegor?

I was fine with the lynch, and he was getting replaced or whatever. The wagon was already huge, and the day was IMO stalling. I wanted a flip.

[Aegor]

I will re-examine the wagon. The fact that Clusk emerged as the alternative to HS kind of makes me want to lynch HS more, but it could be two town wagons.

[Aegor]

Why are we even voting DG? He did not even

check

his role PM, so there is no way to portray this as scum lurking (or town lurking, for that matter).

Vote HS. GOGOGOGOGOGOGO

[Aegor]

Wait, I totally misread that as role PM.

Aegor, you seem pretty quick to want to lynch HS. Do you know something about him that you'd like to share with the rest of us?

Just so we are absolutely clear, are you fishing right now?

[Aegor]

I really don't like this. Have you not been reading people's reasonings as to why they're voting for DG, or do you just not care?

I responded to those reasons, so I obviously read them. GM is facing replacement. HS is straight-up lurking, sheeping, and being incompetent in a way that strongly suggests to me that he is scum. I would at least wait for GM's replacement.

If HS is town, this definitely feels like a scum push, and if HS is scum, it still feels like bussing.

This kind of thinking is anti-town because it is nothing more than confirmation bias.

[Aegor]

Oh, and

@Aegor:

I believe your read on Mirhawk is town/null. What has he done to earn that read? Has he done anything, anything at all, that seems Scummy to you?

Nothing that comes to mind. Null means that nothing has swayed me toward town or scum; I generally only strongly townread 1-2 players per game. Thus, Mirhawk has not "earned" that read, because it is my default read.

[Aegor]

@Aegor
Broodking says that he's 100% certain Boonskiies is scum because he's being disruptive. Do you agree with this?

While Boonskiies' play is not productive, I think he is town. His reactions today and his defense of "I'm selfish" (!!!) actually ring genuinely town to me, although I admit freely that he is quite annoying. But we have way more compelling candidates for a lynch in HS and DG. I feel vehemently that we will regret not lynching this lurkers early on.

[Aegor]

Especially given the NKs. Both active, experienced players. The lurkers will not get NKed and will never provide us with bases for reads.

[Aegor]

Juls

, please format Adrien's name normally henceforth.

[Aegor]

Aegor, why are you the etiquette police? We are big boys and girls, we don't need someone parenting us.

If you were a big girl, you would not be capitalizing and bolding the "e" in Adrien. Your lack of maturity has necessitated some action. I considered just going straight to the mod; this is merely a courtesy.

With that said, how do you feel about the fact that Adrien (happy?) has "decided" to ignore my posts because of the way

he

requested I spell his name?

Did he request manifest mockery? Did he request taunting formatting? No? Then I fail to see how anything other than your obnoxious behavior has caused him to ignore your posts.

[Aegor]

I will suspect Adrien if he continues to ignore you now that you have stopped.

[Aegor]

I was originally thinking that it was a good idea to lynch HS to see if Aero was scum.

HS should be lynched today. What if Aero flips town? Does HS get to live? Do you want to let a lurker whose alignment will

never

be determinable by his posting to live any longer than he absolutely must? If we do not lynch HS today, we will regret it. Big time.

In other news, I'm going to UNVOTE: , because Damon clearly is not actively lurking, just not coming online at all. If a replacement comes and we still haven't lynched anybody yet, then we'll see I guess. For now, I'm off that vote.

Aero, vote in your next post or I am voting you until one of us is dead.

[Aegor]

That is, you and everyone else should always be voting someone unless we are in mylo/lylo. Unvoting without revoting is really, really bad. Like so awful it makes me want to vomit that I even need to say something so basic more than once.

[Aegor]

Well, this is one of the most anti-town posts I've said. Probably the most anti-town if we exclude Wake's posts.

Awesome. I have outdone myself.

Why is lynching a lurker with a big possibility of being town better than trying our very best to find scum?

He is not merely a lurker. He is a lurker whose posts have been full of terrible sheep votes and other scummy nonsense. This case has been made; I have nothing to add to the former case (IDR who made it) because HS' contributions since then have been nonexistent.

He clearly quit the game, prolly not because he was one of the "mafs", but because this is a Large Normal.

Or he quit the game because he was scum who could not handle the pressure.

I didn't do the meta on him, but I'm under the impression people said this was his first out of Newbton?

Then maybe you should do your research before asserting that you know HS' motivations.

If that is the case, he most probably got scared at the amount of people and the amount of trashtalk and pages and so on. That's my read on him. Voting him to put pressure on him is OK. Actively pushing ANOTHER PL will prolly result in another dead townie and therefore giving more advantages to all the other anti-town factions, if there are more than one (which seems highly likely).

It is not a PL. His lynch is completely justified both for his posting and his scummy disappearance, which, being part of the game, is allowed to be placed under scrutiny.

I remember you hammered Clusk - also a lurker. I did a quick ISO on you and I remember that you were pretty insistent on lynching one of the lurkers, HS or Clusk. You had no problem hammering Clusk. You have no problem hammering HS. They might very well be Town, but you don't care.

I did not hammer Clusk. Re-read the thread.

I have no problem lynching lurkers at all. If every single lurker ever were town, I would certainly avoid that policy. Since that is not the case, I see no reason to let players who are active enough to avoid replacement but completely vacuous in their contributions to live. HS is a great lynch; no one else is scummier. I see no reason to avoid what I believe is the lynch most likely to be on scum simply because the target happens to be a victim.

If you remember, I voted Clusk but wanted HS dead yesterday. This is not a PL; your assertion that it is is simply erroneous. If HS had been lynched yesterday, we would not be having this conversation and we would almost certainly be one scum down.

And these ones, in which you push a lynch that "might be two town wagons"...:

I will re-examine the wagon. The fact that Clusk emerged as the alternative to HS kind of makes me want to lynch HS more, but it could be two town wagons.

What is there to explain? The two wagons could both be on town. It is technically possible, although I do not think it is the case.

There's no evidence that HS is scum other than lurking

The only way you could believe that is if you have not been reading this thread.

[Aegor]

rvs

VOTE: cabd

catchup in a bit.

notimpressed

[Aegor]

Okay. So HS is now at L-3. I am curious about what his replacement has to say. We may as well wait for that to happen, so no one lynch, please.

We have plenty of time left, but unless someone strongly opposes the HS lynch or feels that someone else is much, much scummier, I do not mind ending the day early.

So... We're apparently lynching a guy who mostly lurked on bad meta based around EM.

What is your better idea?

[Aegor]

Like when Clusk was going to be replaced and you voted with the intention of your vote to hammer him?

No, since I have no intention of getting HS killed pre-replacement. But I will not devote any energy to preventing the lynch if it reaches L-1 or something.

[Aegor]

Mirhawk, explain to me your desire to avoid lynching a lurker today. First, HS is being replaced. Second, lurkers are exactly the players that should be lynched early.

[Aegor]

@Aegor
Lurkers provide the least amount of information in terms of other players alignments. They have few interactions with other players, and it's easy for anyone to justify their vote on them.
I like my lurkers as vigbait not lynchbait (though this option is likely beyond us now).

So how do you plan to adjust to our dead vig in this respect, in the case that in the future there is a lurker who is still active enough not to be replaced?

[Aegor]

It is not part of his act. Boonskiies is almost certainly town.

This game will remain at a standstill until we get our replacements.

[Aegor]

@Aegor
My plan is to lynch Aero. I know it's an imperfect system, but we cant just lynch lurkers everyday.

Actually, we can. It is only Day 2. I see no reason whatsoever not to lynch HS or DG.

[Aegor]

Hi

DG's slot here

A few issues.

1) I'm town

2) I'm not lurking, I've been here like 2 days and am posting things as I get to them.

3) You've seen me-scum before, if I remember correctly. Me-scum lurks. I'm not lurking. So.

You will find over the course of your reading that I am very happy about a potential HS lynch at the moment, so while you are correct, you need not worry. Right now, at least.

[Aegor]

What advantage do we get from HS's lynch that we don't get from Aero? Because I feel more strongly about Aero being scum then HS.

HS' posting was scummy. I am waiting for the replacement. I will make a decision then. Aero is definitely in my scumpile, so I am considering voting him as well. At this point, however, I intend to move my vote only if I no longer feel HS is scum.

[Aegor]

And Aegor, I'm not going to get lynched, especially for a "lurker" charge. So.

Thanks for sharing!

[Aegor]

@Aero
Why do you assume that two people can't do the same thing for two different reasons?

I don't find either Alina or BT scummy, therefore I don't find their distancing from HS suspicious. Or at least not nearly as suspicious as yours.

Is HS' alignment relevant here?

[Aegor]

What vig thing? Our vig died.

[Aegor]

Do you think SKOT is a maf tracker, then?

[Aegor]

Also, was there anything significant about the dayvig gambit, or was it just distancing?

[Aegor]

Why would maf pretend to dayvig a town and then not NK him once he claimed a PR?

[Aegor]

He did. He was also our vig.

[Aegor]

I am kind of done with waiting for an HS replacement at this point. Can we please just lynch him?

[Aegor]

Unvote

With him gone, I am willing to give his replacement a clean slate.

That said, if he approached L-2, I will vote the slot to extract a claim.

Ew. Why? Either you are willing to put him at L-1 on the merits of the case or not. If you are, why not keep your vote? If not, why would you vote just to extract a claim? How is that helpful at all?

[Aegor]

That is dumb at best and scummy at worst.



Maybe Wake should die tomorrow.

[Aegor]

Time is precious. I don't like the speed on this wagon, and would like to buy enough time for the slot to talk.

I have no issue with this.

If someone outs the slot at L-2 later in the Day, after talking has happened, I will put it at L-1 to extract a claim to gain information.

That is not what you said. You never put any time constraint on your statement at all. What you said is dumb, which you implicitly recognize

because you are now changing your statement

.

I'm not convinced by the current reasons on his case, inspite of what some say. If his case is so strong, then convince me.

So you are not convinced by the case, but willing to "extract a claim?" That is anti-town.

[Aegor]

Wake, you said you would put HS at L-1 once he reaches L-2 to extract a claim. He is now at L-2. So do what you said you were going to do.

[Aegor]

If you wish to kil the slot, without a claim or a new player at the helm, you may do so without me.

If we need someone to rolefish, we will just hit you up. That seems to be all you are interested in doing anyway.

[Aegor]

Someone just hammer, please.

[Aegor]

Unfortunately, this lynch seems inevitable. When Hunter flips town, I think the next plan of action should be to lynch Aegor, because he's been on board to lynch lurkers, and has been pretty open about doing it as quick as possible before we can get reads.

Y'all be crazy.

What reads do you expect to get? What have you done to produce them? What do you still need to do to get them or develop them to your satisfaction this day?

Do I have the power to unilaterally end the day? No. Have I day-vigged anyone? No. Am I stopping you from posting? No. What I see is a game that is stalling. We have a decent wagon. No one is making any real effort to interact with the living players, and so we are all waiting for replacements that may come today or may come in two weeks. And somehow I am responsible for pushing this lynch through.

Don't like it? I suggest you build a case on someone else or ask incisive questions based on play. Otherwise, stop complaining about the situation that we all

collectively

have produced.

[Aegor]

You're completely right, you are just one vote of nine people who agree with you. Having said that, you have been the most vocal about wanting HS gone very quickly.

I see no reason to dawdle without reason. As I said, this game is stalling. If it were not, I would be in no hurry whatsoever to lynch HS. But I am not going to sit here, bored, for however many days because people feel "uncomfortable" with a lynch while they make zero effort to push a better one.

So yea, if he flips town, you seem like scum to me. Also, while we're on the subject, you completely contradicted yourself here VV.
...
And then, just a day later, before HS gets replaced

No contradiction. At the time of the first post, I did have no such intention. My intentions changed.

So yea, while you're not the only one doing it, you've done it the most. So if he flips town, you seem scummier to me. If he flips scum, then you're going to look a lot less scummy to the rest of us. So you should really hope he's scum.

w/e

P-edit - Boon, how would unvoting him make the game move quicker?

Separated this out because I am super confuzzled.

[Aegor]

Aegor

is pushing way too hard for this lynch, is contradicting himself, and is deflecting questions rather than providing content.

How am I not providing content? I have explained very clearly why I want HS dead. I have wanted him dead since yesterday. I compromised on Clusk near deadline.

Just because you do not like the lynch does not mean that I have not been doing anything. If you have questions about why HS is a good lynch, ask. If you feel that my ISO is vacuous, you clearly have not read it.

What makes this a decent wagon?

Read my posts.

The fact that he's only one vote short of ending the day?

Read my posts.

Yes, HS has some definitely scummy posts, and I have voted him/listed him as high priority scum before,

Then it seems like you have pretty effing solid answer to your question about what makes the wagon decent.

but lynching someone while waiting for a replacement when there are people out there with as high or higher scumreads on them just doesn't make any sense.

And on whom do I have a stronger scumread than HS? Or am I scummy now because you

feel

that other players [/i]feel[/i] that some players are scummier than HS?

With 14 days left, there's no rush to end the day.

This is such nonsense. There is no good reason to prolong the day artificially, either. How do I know? Oh, experience.

[Aegor]

Does anyone else have experience with Scum-Aegor?

Mini 1574: Mountainous Mafia with Daytalk

Here is the Scum QT including Aegor: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/qsuPJrPAFqi2

I will help you out.

Micro 235 -- replaced in as scum
Open 535 -- replaced in as scum, hardclaimed scum, and drew (lol)
Open 540
Micro 280
Micro 341

I think there were one or two earlier ones, but those are all my most recent games.

[Aegor]

So you're allowed to ignore questions by just saying "Read my posts"? Nah, that shit ain't gonna fly.

I am providing the response the questions merit.

[Aegor]

No one's going to tell me to look through their long ISO instead of asking basic fuckinging questions, and get away with it. I will not tolerate that crap.

Strange, given that you expect everyone to tolerate your dumb-ass "reaction strategies" that have borne no fruit whatsoever. I would think that asking you to read the game would be a reasonable request, but I guess not.

What else would you like to be spoon-fed?

[Aegor]

Juls,

Just wait until game-tomorrow and make a decision then.



I will 1-1 HS. Just please, please, someone hammer.

[Aegor]

It means that you guys are annoying me. Hammer HS and if he flips town, I will offer myself up to the town tomorrow, my life for his, i.e. our lives are one-to-one or one-for-one.

[Aegor]

Either way, you get what you want (unless you are scum): a lynched scum or a lynched Aegor.

[Aegor]

I will not, because HS is scum.

You seem to be under the delusion that anyone except HS is getting lynched today. Let me dispel that for you: NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. So just suck it up and hammer him.

This is a LARGE game. We are on Day 2. We could policy lynch for several more days and

still

be fine.

And if your idea of a counterwagon is Aegor, then you better use your backup plan because there is 0% chance of that happening.



So just. effing. hammer.

[Aegor]

And you know what is really irritating? That you continue to mention lynching lurkers as a bad idea when HS' posting is scummy for reasons that have

nothing

to do with lurking. And that you are doing

jack shit

other than complaining about a lurker lynch.

Which is both dumb and scummy.

[Aegor]

You're right, he's not just a lurker. He made some really idiotic and scummy posts.

I just don't think anybody is that idiotic.

Well, when you are ready to step back into reality, let me know.

You have just stated exactly why it would be reasonable to hammer HS, and yet you still refuse. Maybe you should consider that when making claims about people being "that idiotic."

Are we having a conversation about what I've done now? I've called out Adrien, I've called out Damon, I've called out you. I've spent time not being distracted by stupid HS.

You should probably wait for his flip before calling him a "stupid distraction."

Want to do something? Build a case and explain why it is more meritorious than HS'.

[Aegor]

I also don't understand why I'm the one you people are trying to get to hammer this guy. There are like seven other people who could do this, not just me.

My statements apply to everyone capable of hammering him; I am not singling you out.

[Aegor]

@Mirhawk

, so I'm voting for Aegor over Hunterseeker, right? I'm doing that because Aegor, this whole game, has only wanted one person gone, and has contributed not much more than wanting that one person.

Which is why your reject of my 1-1 offer makes no sense. If you are that convinced I am scum and the chance of my lynch today is low (as you admit), then there is no reason whatsoever you should not rid the game of a lurker and then get my auto-lynched the next day.

So please explain to me how your behavior makes any sense whatsoever.

They're always on the same page, and although I do really think Mirhawk is town, Aegor's interactions with him make me weary. All Aegor seems to do is want to lynch people as quickly as possible, (I know it's later in the week now, I'm talking about near the beginning of day 2), and it's not making him look town in my eyes. Hunter just seems like a deflection to me.

From what? The

nothing

that forms the rest of the substance of this game?

Unvote

I said I'd unvote in a few hours.

For a moment, I literally felt like I was going to shit my pants in anger. Then I just pooped because I had to. Now I am angry again.

What I did copy and paste below is over 30 posts that you have made, either questioning people's votes, making your own votes, or using fluff to make it look like you were trying to say something. In

two

posts, Post #1453 and Post #1553 you make some half-hearted attempts to give reasons for Hunter's vote.

It is so easy to dismiss content by calling it "fluff" and "half-hearted." Sadly for you, the content remains. If you want me to include references to particular posts of HS and an analysis of why said posts are self-evidently scummy, let me know. But do not even bother trying to say that my case is insubstantial when you could have asked what I meant over 300 posts ago and received thorough and detailed elaboration.

If you want to say I haven't gone through your ISO, feel free, but make sure you expand the spoiler before you do so. Now, without telling me to go read your posts, tell me (or point me to specific posts where you've done so) where you've provided meaningful, town-aligned content.

Any post calling for HS' lynch is meaningful, town-aligned content.

I also don't necessarily expect the Aegor wagon to go anywhere today. I fully believe that at some point the HS lynch will occur, but I refuse to be part of it until the replacement comes in. This is not me "artificially extending" the day, it is me placing a vote where I feel it belongs.

How noble of you. I will continue doing the same.

[Aegor]

Because I feel like a deal like that wouldn't work. Sure, you yourself can say "Vote me tomorrow if I'm wrong today", but that doesn't necessarily mean that the town will do it. I don't think the town would nessessarily vote for you just because you ask them to, which makes it sort of a null offer. So more for that reason, I guess.

I am publicly staking my life on this. I hardly consider the offer void when three players all voted for me within hours. If HS flips town, I have little doubt that you will find the support your need.

See, that's the problem. All you see is HS. Are you telling me every other person seems null or town to you?

Most seem null, as they should. HS' flip will sort most players.

That's obviously not true, or hopefully not true.

Then maybe you should just STFU until you start coming out with all the reads and cases you are demanding other players produce.

[Aegor]

Well that's pretty shitty.

I blame you specifically for that, since you express clear suspicion of HS but refuse to vote him. shadow is also culpable.

[Aegor]

Juls, are you calling an Aero/HS scumteam?

[Aegor]

Adrien, notscience's entry was whack, as you noted with your WTF comment. Do you have any opinions on the slot?

[Aegor]

Juls, are you talking about this post?

[Aegor]

@Juls

:Yes, I was. The link does work with my browser, so I believe (no offense) that the problem is on your end.

[Aegor]

When did I demand other players produce a read?

Hmm, let us see...

All you see is HS. Are you telling me every other person seems null or town to you?

And even if he did, there's nothing wrong with asking players for their reads. It's the point of the game. If someone doesn't have reads, their useless to the town.

Great. HS has no reads. Vote him.

And i've linked you my reads several times, even given a color coded list. Your point is null.

Except now, you are opposing the HS lynch WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING BETTER. I think HS is scum. I am trying to get him lynched. You can tell me that I only care about HS, that I am tunneling, that I am useless, etc.,

but the fact remains that I am attempting to bring about the lynch of the person I find scummiest.

I have no idea what you are doing, but it certainly is not that, otherwise you would be telling me why someone else is a better vote instead of wasting my time with this vacuous nonsense.

Nope. No suspicion of HS. I don't think he's scum. So I wont vote him. If you can find the point where I said I thought he was scum today, and didn't vote for him for no reason, I'll reneg my vote and hammer him right now.

You said he did scummy things. Scummy things are by definition scummy. You said that you did not want to scumread him because you believe that no one is so idiotic as to be as scummy as he is.

Newsflash: They fucking are.

[Aegor]

@Adrien:

Please share your thoughts on this post:

Juls, are you talking about this post?

[Aegor]

I am really feeling you on Adrien, Juls.

[Aegor]

I'm not demanding anything of you there. I'm telling you something I noticed, and you even confirmed it.

You asked a question, which is not "telling."

That actually is a point I hadn't thought of.

You're right, he's not giving reads. The problem with using

only

that reason to lynch someone

No one is doing that. Next.

is that there are also like five other people who are just lurking and not giving reads as well. It's something to think about, though. You are at least pushing for something. However, that's not my only reasoning, so I don't know.

Why are you backpedaling?

Once again, the person I find the scummiest is you. I may not be right, but it's what I think is the best move, so that's my vote. So yes, I too am attempting to bring about the lynch of the person I find scummiest. Just because it might not happen today doesn't mean what I'm doing now wont help during the next lynch, and the lynch after that. You could be at D6 and the people with you could look back at this and revisit the things I've said. If they lynch you because of it, and I'm if i'm right, I've helped.

I will never, ever be lynched.

I don't know if we're getting a replacement any time soon for HS. Maybe we should hear from that person. Because maybe HS is a cop or something, and maybe, just maybe, we won't be fucked.

You now know that HS claimed VT. I had forgotten that as well. Anyway, he is clearly not a cop, so...

@Wake:

HS already claimed; his replacement can therefore tell us directly nothing of interest about the slot itself.

[Aegor]

Aero, again, for a moment, be rational.

HS is at L-2. You want me dead. That will not happen today. It could happen tomorrow.

Why would you NOT want to vote HS? He flips town. My lynch is easier tomorrow, and you have made tomorrow come sooner. He flips scum. We have lynched scum and you can still push for my lynch tomorrow anyway.


EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT THE PROBLEM IS HERE.

[Aegor]

You're really sure he's scum, huh?

Yes. I am also sure that I want to cast you into an abyss so unfathomably deep that you would exhaust your life before reaching its bottom.

[Aegor]

Yay!

PLEASE HAMMER

[Aegor]

YEEEEEEEESSSSSSSS

[Aegor]

BTW HS is probably town.

[Aegor]

JK


















or am I?

[Aegor]

So, who here doesn't think we're in multi-ball? I'm still of the mindset that there's an Odd-Night Town Vigilante out there, to complement the Even-Night Vig, and that two Scum factions murdered this Night. Who here will say that is unfeasible? I am curious.

I am curious as to why you are

still

pushing this ridiculous theory.

Our even-night vig was dead before last night. We had two NKs. Explain that, please. And then please link to a normal game with even-night and odd-night vigs. thanks.

So,

vote: Aegor

Wasn't Aegor the one who pushed through the mislynch on HS?

Want to vote for me it?

VOTE: Wake

[Aegor]

We know it is not a Vig since our even-night vig is DEAD.

[Aegor]

I don't like how aero hammered with deadline well off then is now distancing himself greatly from the HS lynch

-B_E

How is he doing that? From my perspective, he clearly opposed the lynch and hammered out of pressure, and he is not really distancing from the lynch so much as confirming his thoughts from the end of the day. Elaborate please.

[Aegor]

I think it's reasonable that there's an Odd-Night Vig, because an Even-Night Vig died. That in no way means there is, but probable. Regardless of one's stance on pro-Town kills, there may very well be an Odd-Night Vig, and I suspect we're looking at multiball.

Why do you refuse to read my posts?

@everyone:

At this point, does anyone else feel like Wake has something nefarious to gain by getting other people to believe there are two vigs? I really cannot understand his factually untenable and weird push for the two-vig theory, which has never made any sense. Now he has started ignoring posts that explain why his theory makes no sense

while continuing to peddle it upon on us

.

Let's lynch Boonskiies, guys.

Boonskiies is not getting lynched. I will not allow the lynch to go through. Please turn your attention elsewhere.

BP
Wake
Burning_TowN

Explain all three of these, please. With reference to specific posts. If they are that town to you, I want something more concrete than "feel" or "posting style is town" or some such nonsense.

Also, I want to know because those three are the closest I have to scumreads at the moment.

And I'm very confused with your super town reads on BP, Aero, and Burning Town.

Why are the BP and Burning ones confusing?

Explain why they are town, specifically.

[Aegor]

I think it's reasonable that there's an Odd-Night Vig, because an Even-Night Vig died. That in no way means there is, but probable. Regardless of one's stance on pro-Town kills, there may very well be an Odd-Night Vig, and I suspect we're looking at multiball.

How is it probably at all? Why would you assume that an even-night vig implies an odd-night vig?

Do you have any reason to believe this whatsoever based on past games?

How have you quantified this to the extent that a second vig is "probable?"

Were there any other PR claims? The reason I ask is because, if there were, why didn't Scum target them? An Odd-Night Town Commuter would seem like a threat for Scum on those Nights. There may be an Even-Night Commuter, too. Whether both of them are Town, Scum, or a mix of either is a good question.

How would a commuter be a threat?

1)

I think it's reasonable to suspect that there may be an Odd-Night Town Vigilante.

Explain the number of NKs both nights, then.

2)

In a game this big, it's plausible that there is an Even and Odd version of a power role.

Show me the precedent.

3)

I would suspect the same if an Even-Night Cop died, that there may be an Odd-Night Cop as well. In fact I just modded a game with that Setup offsite.

What about onsite?

4)

And if that's true, then Night 1 is suspicious, because an Even-Night Vig died, and I reckon that an Odd-Night Vig was active during that Night.

How did we get a second kill last night, given that one of them was a mafioso?

5)

And just theorizing a bit, Night 2 is really odd. There's no Even-Night Vig to kill someone during Night 2. So sans the Even and having the Odd out of commission until Night 3, why were there two kills? That leads me to think we're looking at multiball. It could just be my own faulty perspective on these things, but I think it's important to throw my thoughts out there while I still can.

Where was the third kill Night 1?

6)

Lastly, assuming two non-Vig entities killed reinoe and NS during Night 2 (I'm assuming we're looking at two Scum factions), how does that explain Night 1?

It does not. Because your theory makes no sense whatsoever and you are bad.

7)

Could it be that the Even-Night Vig killed Cabd or Farside, a Scum faction killed the other, and then the remaining Scum faction was blocked... or couldn't perform the kill? That is what I simply wondering.

The chances of that are almost unfathomably low.

Now to those who "seem" to think it is strange for me to muse on these possibilities, at least someone is wondering about this part of the game.

What

concrete

benefit do you get from musing on said possibilities?

My contention is that it's reasonable to suspect there's an Odd-Night Vigilante to complement the Even-Night Vigilante.

You said it was

probable

. How do you justify the assertion that the presence of an odd-night vig is

more likely

than only an even-night vig and two scum factions?

I would do the same if an Even-Night Doctor died in a Large 21-player game. It's common sense to think that that

might

be in the game.

You did not say "might." You said "probable."

That Aegor argues that it's "factually untenable" that makes no sense... tells me he has an ulterior reason to try and quash even the suggestion that there may be two Town Vigs.

omg. I never said it was technically impossible for their to be two night vigs. I am saying that the NKs

strongly

suggest that there is no second vig, and then engaging in pointless speculation about this is completely fruitless.

Like your "reaction tests" that yielded results you were unable to articulate.

And everything else you have done this game.

I do tend to ignore stupid posts, and annoying and noisy ones, too.

I

am a voice of reason, in that I don't viciously fight against the mere possibility of a certain Normal role being included in a Large Normal.

You did not say "possibility." You said

PROBABILITY

. Are you even paying attention to what you write?

I'm not saying I'm a PR, but if I didn't know better I'd say I feel like I'm being prodded by Scum to discern if I'm one. And for the record my theory makes perfect sense, because it's

entirely possible

that the role is at play. You seem to argue against just the possibility, so I want answers from you on

why

.

Why would scum want to know if you are a PR? You are negative utility regardless, so scum has incentive to keep you alive.

I told you it's reasonable to think there's an Odd-Night Vig; I even said that "in no way means there is, but probable," yet you put words into my post by asking "why does Even-Night Vig automatically imply an Odd-Night Vig?" I say it's reasonable to think it's possible.

You did NOT SAY possible. You said PROBABLE.

PROBABLE.

Your last question of "If you think it's mutiball now then why were there not 3 kills N1?" is the one that has me wondering, and I am very interested as to why I'm gaining some resistance by certain folks over this.

Because you espouse a redonkulous theory that just disregards the only facts that should generate and support the theory and then make no attempt to reconcile your theory with said facts.

You

started

with the clear

assumption

that there was an odd-night vig instead of using the NKs to guide your speculation. You then consistently refuse to provide any explanation of how your theory is reconcilable with the facts, and then call others scummy for pointing out the enormous flaws in this thought process.


But this is easily resolved right now: Since you have realized that you were in error and are now simply asserting the

possibility

of an odd-night vig, you admit that an odd-night vig is no more probable than no other vig and two scum factions, correct?

[Aegor]

Leaning town on TN, not on Burning_Earth. He's...there.

How is the slot town, then? Why not null? Or does "leaning town" actually mean "firm townread?"

Why are you so certain that he's town? Seriously, what did he do? Point it out. Please. If I'm wrong, I would like to know that I'm wrong.

We can lynch him tomorrow if you really want. Not today.

Working on it, but I'm gonna make some food and eat so it'll be a while before the full thing is up. I've finished Wake so far and I'll do the other two and then do a writeup tonight.

Still waiting on this.

[Aegor]

Ball's in your court, Aegor.

Really? Because all I see are plenty of questions that you have yet to answer.

[Aegor]

I am not either head of the Burning_TowN hydra.

[Aegor]

Oh. My bad. I want your write-up first. I will not ignore that.

[Aegor]

I also never said there was no way that a second vig exists. I just said that the facts do not support that claim, and in fact strongly indicate the opposite.

[Aegor]

I don't see how they strongly indicate anything. They don't. There's way too many variables.

No, there are not. There is a finite and manageable number of variables.

We have two nights with two nightkills. That necessarily means two scum factions unless there are two even-night vigs and an odd-night vig. I am sure you will agree that is not at all likely.

We can therefore conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that there are two scum factions.

Setting aside NM's reasonable question as to how either of the N1 kills could reasonably be interpreted as pro-town, setup speculation also dismisses the idea of an odd-night Vig. In order for their to be an odd-night Vig, one of the scum factions would have had to not submit a NK or be blocked or target someone who was doc-protected. The probabilities of the block and protect are very low just based on the number of players. I find it very unlikely that scum did not target someone. While I am sure that it has happened, I personally have never had it happen in any game in which I have played.

Therefore an odd-night doc is unlikely.

[Aegor]

@Aegor Why do you think we absolutely can't lynch Boon today?

You can try.

I don't know if you've answered that before, but you seem pretty sure of it. I also don't understand why It'd be OK to lynch him tomorrow but not today.

He is not an interesting target today, and I think he is town. Plus the people voting him (especially Alina) are tunneling, so it would be nice to see them pursue other targets. I am pretty sure he is town.

[Aegor]

Don't you think it's a possibility the odd-night vig(presuming it exists) might not have shot anyone? Or do you think it HAS to shoot or something?

That is the one situation I neglected to consider. We could have a voluntary Vig that did not shoot N1. I still find it unlikely, and I also do not know why a Vig would not target N1, especially given the number of lurkers.

[Aegor]

@Alina:

Thanks for the write-up. I read every word, so you can rest assured that it was not in vain.

First,

VOTE: BP

Spoiler: Reasons

However, I feel other people are better candidates to lynch, namely Wake, Clusk (even though I do agree with Adrien we should hear from his replacement first) and Scarab.

Disclaimer: I am willing to join any wagon to lynch any of these three.

OK. So.

Despite my 802... errr... I...

Vote: Clusk92

Reason: lets makes some flips happen

This. This happened.

After all the heat, after everything, after all the posts, reads, evaluations, opinions, fights, reviews, ISO's... That's what Lurker has to offer.

VOTE: HunterSeeker.

I don't even care anymore.

My least favourite player of the active ones is Wake. Then Scarab. But HS just blows up the scale. Also, let's give Clusk's replacement a chance. I didn't like Clusk much

, but there is a slight possibility this game just upset him or wtv.

After all, the point of the post was to say that I will be voting HS rather than you

, but making a point of keeping an eye on you.

It does not look that much

scummier

than HS to me, no.

I agree

, but only after HunterLurker's latest post.

She's right.

I think Hunter is just bad, bad town

- even worse than me, Wake! - and given that three people have already died, then

I don't want to lynch another town

.

I don't like his short posts that he seems to have designed just to go off everyone's radar, with his very short comments on current discussion. I am still on page 48, so I don't know if he has posted yet. I will give a more detailed opinion once I check that out. In the meantime, let it suffice to say that I think

HS is still much worse

, because of his vote on Day 1 with no context, complete lack of reads and opinions, and just troll lurking the thread, and then posting very weird defensive statements as soon as day rose again. But again: will re evaluate.

I hate being on a different time zone than most people. Usually my posts are follow-up because people are online when I'm fast asleep. Oh well, thus is life.

Oh, btw, current scum list:
> Scarab
> Wake

Town

> Aegor

> Alina
> Boon

I think that argument is town on town.

WAKE WAKE WAKE WAKE

I am pretty damn sure the HS wagon is another scum-motivated one

. There is nothing to them other than not voting. I've said this before: they are policy lynches and policy lynches are bad for town because we decrease in number. That can't be.

What you say makes sense, Aegor. But it HS flips town, I'm coming after you.

[Aegor]

If any more reasons are needed, one need only look at BP's ISO and his three main targets: Wake, Scarab, Clusk. Then look at how much pressure said players have received from BP today.

[Aegor]

I would gladly lynch SKOT as well.

[Aegor]

Aegor. Were you pressuring me because I was lurking? Was I yet another easy target? Because screw you. Your post is bad and you know it. You have me look like I'm contradicting myself, but I think it's fairly cool I have different opinions when 500 distance two posts of mine.

You are more than welcome to explain your 180 on the HS lynch at your convenience by posting the relevant posts from your ISO that I missed, if such exist.

You are also more than welcome to explain your selective endorsement of policy lynches, as described in Alina's post, again, at your convenience.

[Aegor]

Oh yeah.

@

Aegor

What were your reasonings for suspecting Burning_TowN?

VOTE: SKOT

[Aegor]

@SKOT

: Please explain NM choice.

[Aegor]

Oh, and about Burning: I was conflating him to some extent with BP in my mind. Reviewing his ISO, nullish.

[Aegor]

VOTE: Juls

Please explain how being okay with a lynch constitutes intent to hammer imminently.

[Aegor]

Explain the results of your reaction test.

[Aegor]

And lack of opposition does not mean active support.

[Aegor]

Aegor immediately apologized to SKOT prior to the flip and AdrienC seemed almost giddy.

How is either of those things scummy? What do you think of BP's 2074 and following?

This is all moot anyway for reasons that will soon become apparent, but indulge me.

[Aegor]

Aero was white knighting. Have you never seen scum white knight? He knew the flip was at least not a member of his team.

I have seen scum WKing, which is why I recognize your claim as the absurdity that it is.

Aero was on the wagon. He did not express remorse post-hammer for being on the wagon. He did not even say that he thought SKOT was town at that point. All he said was that he was sorry that the hammer came so unreasonably soon,

regardless of SKOT's alignment

. How you are interpreting that as WKing is beyond me.

If Aero is scum, it is not for that.

As for Adrien, the reaction was just excitement. His reaction isn't what I would vote him for as much as just his play in general.

k.


So your reaction test was IMO not that useful and kind of failed. That was not a good move.