Micro 488: Forest Fire - Endgame

[Gentlemen Bastards]

About damn time.

/confirm

[Gentlemen Bastards]

That was me (Empire).

I'm itching to get to the main course already, this is a very long appetizer.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

On one player and I have reasons to think it's inconclusive.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I hope this game starts soon because I'm going to be away starting at 5 PM EST. I'm going to have all day tomorrow free though.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Vote: Quilford

I'm sorry I roped you into this game only for you to end up rolling scum

[Gentlemen Bastards]

It certainly felt like a long one. At any rate, the wait wasn't the only thing I was reacting to.

Anyway, I actually have to go now, I'm late.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

haha empipoo dw I am supes town

VOTE: sangres

nacho nacho na-cho!
nacho nacho na-cho!

You seem a bit awkward though (including in this post). :/ What gives?

(I've been drinking a bit so prepare for increasingly incoherent posts.)

[Gentlemen Bastards]

My fucking phone died

$20 says regfan and empire drew scum AGAIN

thinking i could be scum at this poiint is scummy

also sangres probably town question mark

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Actually, looking over at Yuriko again, she's a kinda towny too?

(inb4 Regfan tells me I'm bad)

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Was waiting for more content to occur to get reads before posting but this games extremely slow and I'm impatient at the moment. This is just a normal scumhunting setup, there are some other mechanics at play (Tree stump, the manner scum have their night kill ect.) but none of that changes how this early game plays out, time for more people to pop in here and state some reads and thoughts.

I didn't like Quilfords early few posts (Was the one to bring it up to Empire initially), they felt very awkward but I don't agree with Empire at all about Quilfords Post 51 where he considers us being scum, I'm reading that as more of a town-tell than a scum-tell here.Also not seeing Empires town read on Yuriko

at all

so he'll have to explain that one to me when he's awake and sober. Similarly not seeing his Sangres town read, hoping it's based on more than just him liking the manner she brought up meta-checks earlier because that read as extremely weak and something easily fakeable to me.

Sangres other than wanting to speak with Empire was there a particular reason you wanted to know who made Post 4 of ours?

About the only town read I'm semi-confident in at this point is Bork, like his "There's a few things I'm monitoring but don't want to butt in on" in Post 38 mirrors what I was doing at the time, also like his recent questioning with Quilford, comes across as him genuinely attempt to get a read there.

Unvote, Vote: Pie

Quilford vote still isn't bad but I'm liking this slightly more at the moment, Pies reaction towards Muffin in Post 13 / Post 17 felt over-the-top forced.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

After #55 I see #46 as a "I don't know how to scumhunt without flips" worry. I'm inclined to agree.

I don't see how that'd make scumhunting more difficult or harder for her to do especially in an early game position like this where there wouldn't be any flips normally. Also it's not as if flips are hidden it's just a case of lynched town can still post which shouldn't impact scumhunting again? So yeah, I don't see her "worries" as genuine at all. I'm going to be p disappointing if that's what Empire is reading as town here.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Empire popped in, his town read on Yuriko is dead - It was based around him thinking the "how do I get reads you people are weird" being about peoples play rather than the setup, he agrees that it being about the setup isn't genuine/doesn't make sense. Still not sold on his Sangres town read (Though I'm starting to see it re; Post 75) but he's agreeing p strongly on Bork being town which is nice.

He also says I'm a turdman that can't read his trolling and his comment on Quilfords post being scummy wasn't serious (The initial vote on Quilford was though). I read it as town-ish because I can imagine that being something Town!Quilford would contemplate (especially with by absence from the thread despite being online elsewhere at the time, something he was aware of) but it's p weak reasoning and I still dislike his earlier posts.

This kinda implies you think she's scummy. Do you?

Yes, am leaning that way, it's weakened by the fact that she is ESL though (which is generally something I have trouble reading). There's slightly more to this but I don't want to go into it right now; remind me if I forget to bring it up later because Empire things it's p important.

My question about who made the post had nothing at all to do with wanting to speak with Empire.

What did the fact that Empire made that post tell you and how would it have changed if I were the one that made the post?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Why would his initial interpretation imply Yuriko is town, then?

-b

I'll take this one. My initial interpretation suggested to me that Yuriko is town because, beneath the surface, she is trying to get reads but finds the conversations/early game fuckery impenetrable and is voicing her frustration about it in the thread.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I thought the sentiment sounded a little forced coming from Empire, but could be that he was just that keyed up about the game. Which was *sort of* confirmed by his answer to my questions. It didn't have some of the tone I remember from his rvs play in the space game, though.

FWIW, I think that my play once Day 1 actually started is a lot closer to Mafia in Space than you're thinking (minus the lighthearted banter, probably due to the side effects of drawing a town PM in this particular game vs. that one). Also, Regfan thinks that we're obvtown already so you should just sheep him, he's good at mafia you know?

Hi guys! I just got back home and am super duper tres tired. If I get some grading done and wake up, I'll post something. Otherwise, tomorrow. But Bork's got this, so.

Hey Tammy, bork's inexplicably already more obvtown than you. How does this make you

feel

?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Well, ffery, for one thing the quality of this roster is way higher. Also, you (part of the Trinity of Empire readers) and Tammy (pretty accurate at reading me) are here and I don't expect you two to have any problems reading me as town if you're both town like I think you are so that gives me the license to roam free and uninhibited.

Quilford, any thoughts on non-my slot players?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm now very much seeing the Sangres town read of Empires, Ffyers Post 75, Post 86 and especially Post 93 all read very town and I liked the explanation behind the "Who posted that" question in Post 82, can follow the reasoning behind it. Would like to see some Nacho analysis in this thread soon though. Our town read on Bork has gotten stronger too and I'm leaning town on Rancid (I think Empire agrees with this too?) albeit that's a fairly weak read at this point.

Also I forgot to mention it before but neither of us liked Mollas Post 41 nor the fact that he's active elsewhere but here. Similarly Pie has been online a lot since our vote on him and the lack of in-thread reaction is making me feel more comfortable with our vote.

@Quilford -

You would have known I'd be online via seeing my post (which you responded to) in the Melbourne thread. Anyway while I agree with your reads in Post 96 I find it alone p underwhelming, would like to see more from you; what's your read on Yuriko/Pie/Molla so far?

@Muffin -

I like that your reads are mirroring mine so far (Pie/Yuriko scum, Bork town) would like to know what specifically of Yuriko that

you

are/were reading as scum at the time of your post though, also would love your read on Quilford with reasoning attached please.

@Yuriko -

I'm mostly interested in your reads on players (So far everyone single one of your posts has been about the setup/game and not about a read on a player, that needs to change); Who do you think is mafia, who do you think is town and why? With all that said I do want you to explain the disconnect in your most recent post; if you accept the fact that lynched town players continue to have a voice and that there will be less nightkills (Both really good things for town) why do you think it's biased towards the mafia? Not following that conclusion at all.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@Quilford -

The voting phase had been going for quite some time when I made that post over there. I don't think Yukiro is that much of a 'newb', she's played several games and one of them I skimmed she won ridiculously easily as scum so I don't think her setup stuff is a town-tell at all.

@Pie -

The quoted bit below reads like utter bullshit - We haven't "pushed" you at all, I've merely voted you saying that your posts read over-the-top (Something that both Ffyer and Muffin have agreed with) and mentioned that I dislike you being online but taking an age to get in here for content (Which did occur). The whole "It's an awful push, they're scum!" reads as an attempt to de-credit and OMGUS and the attack on Quilford for being "Waffly" while doing the same thing with your Muffin read doesn't add up at all, also dislike your lack of comment on Bork given he's the largest poster here. So here's your chance to convince me I'm wrong at the moment; a) What about our 'push' is bad, b) What's your read on Bork and c) How does your Muffin read differ from Quilfords?

GB is scum,

or at the very least their push on me is one of the most awful things I think I've ever seen.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Huh, I swear the game was going last night.

Here; http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=39723

[Gentlemen Bastards]

the bork town read jumped out at me. taking a laid-back/observing approach is relatively easy to fake as scum. and "genuinely attempting to get a read" is completely unsubstantiated (I'm interested in what, specifically, made you think this). in general, I feel most of the positions in 63 were ass-backwards; I think sangres is likely town and don't really see how he's seeing bork's posts (which I think have been easy to fake for the most part) as more town.

Waiting for conversations to play out naturally in the manner Bork was to get reads makes sense as town (It's what I was doing at the time), you're able to see how peoples conversations play out and then assess their motivations afterwards whereas scum are more incentive into pushing themselves into a conversation to a) Seem contributive while really not doing much or b) Manipulate the conversation. I liked his line of questioning towards Quilford - the questions had a legitimate thought process and reason behind it, I've since really liked the way he has interacted both with Ffyer and ourselves and while I strongly disagree with his Yuriko town reasoning I think him pushing people to comment on it reads town. And not to mention I DO have Sangres as town, I just didn't at THAT point. Also Empire says your town reasoning on Sangres is ridiculously superficial (The fact that your 'strong' town read is based on page 1 rather than latter pages is proof of that) + they weren't "pushing" us, merely asking a question (This is you changing the definition of pushing again).

this is one of the most lol things I've seen and I don't believe that a player of your calibre would consider this a cogent argument. consider this. was I actually posting in any other games in the time I was on this site? I was periodically browsing the site, but I was busy and it takes a lot more time effort to sit down and read/digest a game than it does to periodically browse the forums and make occasional posts here and there. the fact that I hadn't even formed any reads yet after game start adds to this (although strictly speaking I had the weak town read on ffery since her pregame posts, but, really); you were expecting me to come in here, with no reads, and do ... what, exactly?

Actively lurking and avoiding a thread is a scum-tell and scum have a lot of reason to do so in a playerlist like this where scum are going to have severe difficulty a) Getting people to misread them and b) Pushing through mslynches but again continue to pretend that a) We were "hard pushing you" (Which is not something we were doing at all and b) Voted you for being online elsewhere (Not why we voted you).

it is also noted that your two primary scum reads entirely come down to "forced posts" and "being active elsewhere but not posting here" - and when you did have a play-based scum read, you dropped it immediately (and looking back at it again it was based mostly on forced posts). do you currently have any scum reads based on play?

Forced / Genuine posting is p standard terminology for when you find a post scummy/townish so you attempting to belittle our scum reads because they're based on "Forced posting" especially in the early game is idiotic and if you were reading our posts you'd notice that I have a scum read on Yuriko and that it's not really a scum-read on Molla but more of a "I find his posts/play underwhelming and am keeping an eye there" read.

voting me is pretty fucking obviously a push. this is even more so the case when you have had said vote on me for the entire game and have continually laid out additional reasons for me being scum over the course of the game. so, how is that not constituted a "push"?

this is a semantic argument at best and disingenuous at worst.

Empire says this is one of the worst things he has ever seen and I think I agree, if you were reading the game you'd have noticed our vote wasn't initially on you and was rather on Quilford (We disliked his early posts and wanted to get a reaction out of him, the vote on him a mix between a pressure-vote and a scum-read) the same was the case on our vote on you. It wasn't a "everyone lynch Pie, he's scum, we're positive!" vote at all, it was a vote saying "I feel more comfortable being here" and an added "I feel better about the vote knowing he's been online but avoided this". So you making out our vote was a "push" is ridiculously scummy, like insanely scummy - it shows you haven't read the thread properly and rather are just pushing back on us.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

GB is scum,

or at the very least their push on me is one of the most awful things I think I've ever seen.

I haven't been fond of their other posts, either. more elaboration on this incoming.

voting me is pretty fucking obviously a push. this is even more so the case when you have had said vote on me for the entire game and have continually laid out additional reasons for me being scum over the course of the game. so, how is that not constituted a "push"?

Your post above our 'push' above, our comments re; you below. You're scum, you can hang now.

Unvote, Vote: Pie

Quilford vote still isn't bad but

I'm liking this slightly more at the moment, Pies reaction towards Muffin in Post 13 / Post 17 felt over-the-top forced

.

Also I forgot to mention it before but neither of us liked Mollas Post 41 nor the fact that he's active elsewhere but here.

Similarly Pie has been online a lot since our vote on him and the lack of in-thread reaction is making me feel more comfortable with our vote.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

the strongest point (and what makes me pretty sure they're scum here) is them saying "lol, ur posting on site but not posting here" without actually thinking about it (and the accompanied lack of any other scum read based on anything play-related). I think they're too smart for that. it felt more like an easy throwaway reason they could pull up to add to the scum read on me.

Continue to blatantly lie, it's fun to point out how glaringly obvious you are now. Heck anyone looking at Post 122 at this point will see you've massively you've changed what our 'push'/vote/comment on you was. Not to mention we never voted you for being online (Which you're trying to make out is the case) nor do we have 'no scum reads elsewhere', it's p easy to see that I've got one on Yuriko and initially had one on Quilford (His recent tone reads town though).

[Gentlemen Bastards]

You're ignoring us.

But no, I'm not particularly interested in a huge amount of back and forth walls (I've made that mistake once before and people ruled it out as TvT leading towards people giving scum the win when I was dead despite me being right) so I'll just summarise why Pies scum in one post here, Empire can add to it later.

1. She's misrepped what our push on her was, I've quoted in Post 122 but essentially I moved our vote from Quilford->Pie in Post 63 because I wasn't as comfortable on Quilford anymore and because I found Pies reaction to Muffins posts as forced, then stated I was more comfortable with my vote in Post 103 because I'd seen her online a lot without popping in, she's come straight in swinging calling our push "the worst thing she's seen" and that we were scum in Post 106 and then in Post 112 stated that we've had our vote on her the whole game (If she was reading the game she'd have noticed us vote Quilford, get a reaction and then move to her) and that we'd 'continuously laid out additional reasons for her being scum' when we'd mentioned her a total of two times. So essentially she's had a huge scum-overaction towards our vote on her and then proceeded to misrep all of our prior posts trying to make it seem like we've got no reads elsewhere (Already gone into two town reads I'm p confident on, two that I've touched on and a scum read on Yuriko) and that we've been 'non-stop' pushing her which wasn't the case.

2. Her town read on Ffyer is ridiculously superficial in Post 106 and actually ignores what really has happened, the explanation of the town read is that she doesn't see Ffyer 'pushing Empire' as scum (This never happened, she asked who made the first post of the game, that's not even remotely close to a push) and then in Post 123 claimed the town read on Ffyer is based on her confidence (She's shown no confidence in stating a read on us or really anyone as of yet, her Post 93 if anything is her being cautious not confident). The fact that her town read on Ffyer is based of these things rather than actual town posts of Ffyer is a p large scum-tell.

Can probably go into a few more points (Specifically her read on Muffin v her stating that Quilford is scummy for being fenesitty ect.) but the above two posts are what I'd consider the stronger scum-tells that she's dropped and I'd rather people focus on those for now - if you want me to elaborate on anything feel free to ask.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

COME OUT AND PLAY, REGFAN You don't get to write a bunch of walls and then go "herp derp, wall wars are anti-town". I, on the other hand, love wall wars, so good fucking luck pushing any more blatantly false arguments against me here.

More than happy to keep discussing this just not in a quote wall format (No one reads those and it'll just spam this up people ending up ignoring most of the arguments) - I'll respond to your more most recent post when my poker game ends though the crux of why I think you're scum is in Post 130.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

RE; Post 131

1) Again the "Bork is waiting back for certain conversations to end before entering" wasn't a "Oh that means he's 100% town" tell (You'd notice this when I stated the town read on him in Post 63 was only a semi-confident one) and that wasn't the entire basis of it.

2) I've played enough mafia to know that a player that's avoiding a thread has a better than random chance of being mafia (Unless they've got a weird preference for scum) so yes, I consider actively being on the site but not posting a scum-tell, is it a strong one, depends on the context, was it a strong one in this case? No. Was it something that made me feel slightly better about my vote on you? Yes. Was it a or my reason to vote you alone? No. It's not a difficult thing to understand.

3) Lets not beat around the bush with the "Forced is inherently bullshit" argument, I find/found your reaction to Muffin as forced, you say you were "joking/mucking around and it was purely playstyle" but I find those type of posts more likely to come from scum that feel awkward or unsure what to post or react to someone calling them mafia (Jokingly or seriously so). Again by no means was I even remotely confident that made you scum, it was a ridiculously weak scum read, what's strengthened it tenfold is you misrepresenting everything that we've done and what our "push" on you consists of after the vote.

4) You're pushing saying "You've got little to no scum-reads based off in-play stuff" and guess what? We've seen very little of Soft, Molla (Who I've explained I found his initial post underwhelming, lacked a certain thing or two I was expecting in it, we think we can read him as the day pans out), Yuriko (Who I disliked her initial posts for in-thread reasons - it's a lot of conversation and discussion on the setup and not reads from here while her concerns of the setup don't add up either) and yourself at that point of the thread - what "strong" scum reads would it be 'reasonable' to have there?

5) There's a pretty large difference between reaction-testing, pressure voting, questioning and pushing someone for a lynch. The earlier three are done to get a stronger read on someone the latter is done to get a scum read lynched, it's pretty obvious at that point that we weren't pushing you for a lynch at all so you coming in and saying "their push is awful" "they've been continously pushing me" based on two,

two

, I'll repeat it again

two

comments about you doesn't add up at all. And if it's based on the "Way we're pushing you" a) Both Ffyer and Muffin mentioned your initial posts reading as forced in the

exact

same manner we did and b) You've seen me mention peoples activity elewhere while avoiding the thread impact on my reads in other games before.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

HMMMmmafdmfa okay maybe reg vs pie is town on town.

DIE.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

RE; Post 139

1) I refuse to consider for a second that you genuine believe that "pushing" is a) Asking someone which hydra head made a specific post (Which is what you're considering Ffyers interaction with Empire is and then calling her a strong town read based on it which is nonsensical) and b) Voting someone in the early game where it's ridiciulously obvious it's not an attempt to lynch them, you've played enough mafia to know that's not a push.

2) The whole "Why would I play this way as scum / Why would I lie as scum" is fairly easily explainable; scum lie, scum make up reasons to suspect people, scum bullshit reads and reasoning (Tammy will hate this but my 'clearance' of BBT in our last game is a key example of this), stating that our read/'push' is 'awful/scum' works in the regard that you're instantly going about to de-credit us since you know it's unlikely for you to be able to manipulate us and dodge the lynch D1 that method so you're better of instead attempting to ML us or have it that no one will listen to us (And Empire did point out that you'd be 90% likely to push us back as scum). The fact that you're continuously pointing to the "He pushed me via being online elsewhere" when that's not really what happened or "you don't have any scum reads based on in-thread stuff" which again is wrong points to that too.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

RE; Post 145

Post #130 1)

- I'd consider our vote on you and Quilord very similar, I don't really think we "pushed" you any stronger than him at all.

Post #130 2) & Post #136 2)

- There's no way I can know exactly why you're not posting in the thread, none at all, had you popped in with a "busy today, will get to this tonight" I'd have had no issue at all, it was the fact that Empire stated when he checked the site earlier in the game phase he saw you online when I made my vote I saw you online and saw you online for quite some time afterwards that I find/found scummy - does you not having posted in that time make you confirmed scum, no, but it does make me feel more comfortable about my vote on you even if only marginally so again the fact that you're continuing to push the "this logic does not make sense" is idiotic, you've seen first hand several scum players lurk intentionally (Heck I did it at points in WF).

Post #136 4)

- I have a very strong town read on both Sangres and Borkhydra - both of their lines of prodding, their interaction and reads on each other and other players read town. I can elaborate on both in more detail if needed but suffice to say that I haven't had a single qualm that's unexplained by either (I did dislike Ffyers initail question to Empire but her reasoning behind it squashed that). We're both reading Quilfords tone to match his town one, it's not a rock solid town read and we'd like to see more content and reads from him but I don't have a scum read on him. I've liked most of Muffins reads and thoughts so far, again it's not a rock solid town read but I do lean towards him being town and know that Empire does too. So yes, we think scum are more likely in the lesser posters which makes 'finding scum-tells' difficult, the few posts they (You/Molla/Yuki) had at the point we weren't fond of either and you're ignoring what I really scum-read about Yuikis posts it's largely two things, a) The fact that not a single post of hers so far has had anything scumhunting and read related and she's not a 'noob' like some people here seem to believe and b) I'm not following the thought process behind some of her setup paranoia, her conclusions don't match her statements which I need explained, I'm willing to admit some of this may be down to the fact that she's ESL but either way I'll wait for her posts to judge better at this point.

Post #144 1)

- Her asking who made that post is hardly her pushing on our slot and is not something that's even remotely unfakebale not to mention the comment you're stating that makes you more confident they're town (Ffyer agreeing with the scum reads on you) would have lots of scum motivation if they're scum? They see two players state a scum-read on you and can safely jump on board, it's not a town-tell at all and the fact it's the basis of your town read on them is what reads really fake, there are several MUCH townier posts of theirs for instance Ffyers comment re; Bork tricking her here in Post 75 or her wanting to be sure on her read on us in Post 93. There's a lot of posts from Bork similarly that I'd expect you to be town reading or commenting on but you're not.

I'll leave #Post 144 2) for it's own post.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I've already explained that I'm not pushing that you're calling me scum for "being online". you called me scum for "active lurking", and I was merely explaining why this was not, in fact, correct. you kept saying I was being "active on site, but not posting here" - any mention I made of me being "online" was in reference to this. this is fucking simple shit.

This is NOT what happened.

(I thought I was never going to be but one of those large-text players, looks like I'm wrong).

If you're town I'll give you a few minutes to reread our entire interaction, my posts or the whole game, whatever you need to and rescind this. Go.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'll run a little summary for you Pie;

1. I found Quilfords early posts as awkward, had a very weak gut-scum read on him from them, Empire agreed and then voted Quilford.

2. I didn't mind Quilfords reaction and subsequent posts and moved my vote to you because I also found your reaction towards Muffin as forced.

3. Stated reads, remembered to mention the Molla read we currently had which included the fact that he'd been active elsewhere on the site while having a really underwhelming post in the thread. At the same time mentioned that we'd both seen you online too which made me more comfortable with my vote.

So there's two comments about you and two comments only

1) Your comment being forced to Muffin and 2) You having been online when we checked the site.

So you coming in and saying that the push is "awful/scum" would have to be about one of those two things yes? Can't be 1) since Ffyer and Muffin made the exact same comment and you didn't call their comments "awful/scum". So logically the sole "awful" element that you're claiming about our push is 2) which is stating that you were online which

again

was not the reason you were voted and was a comment mentioned afterwards which again was a one-sentence line (And is well known that I and others consider it a scum-tell even if a weak one) so your confidence/retaliation doesn't add up with the context of what occurred int he game at all

[Gentlemen Bastards]

like actually though, both pie and gb are kind of overblowing it a bit and it's weird.

My issue is his reaction towards our vote, it's so OTT and doesn't add up and he's ignoring large parts of the thread (and context) in it. I also have a problem with his Ffyer read (and lack of read on the bork hydra) as well as him attacking us for not having 'scum-reads elsewhere when it was page 4 with several players not having appeared yet (And several players didn't have scum-reads at the time so him bringing that up makes no sense).

Also you suck, you meant to say you agree with Tammy (P sure Post 157 is her).

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Alright I'm heading to bed, Empire should be up soon to catch up, I've left my reads with him though most of them are in the thread already but in the meantime people need to actually make time to read through Pie/My back and forths and not skim them.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Hey everyone, I just woke up much later than I had wanted to (I spent way too much of the night talking about this game with Regfan) and I'm now fully caught up. I see Regfan's done a really comprehensive job in responding to pieguyn's posts and I don't really want to become another Thor and add on to the wars when it's unnecessary, but if anyone has any questions they want to ask me about our read on pieguyn, let me know.

Regfan's left me some reads on skype while I was asleep and, while the strength of some reads have changed, he's largely dealing with the same PoE pool as earlier {pieguyn, BBmolla, Soft-spoken, and Yuriko} We both really want to see more from Molla and soft-spoken (especially Molla, who should be really easy for us to read) and more reads-type content from Yuriko, personally I feel like the game's stalling in my mind until they go ahead and do so.

In the meantime, I think it's worth me checking into Yuriko's meta since I found the scum game Regfan linked really disconcerting when he showed it to me on skype a while back.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm still going through Yuriko's games but I already found some really neat stuff that I am holding onto until she dives into this game a bit more. One thing I do want to point out though is that she seemed to have absolutely no problem doing some good old fashioned, low information D1 scumhunting as both alignments so I don't really understand where her complaints about the setup re: inability to scumhunt are coming from.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I feel like I really should read Tales of You since it's becoming increasingly important but do I really want to do that to myself?

Oh well, here goes nothing.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

It's, uh, an experience

-b

I'm ISO'ing your slot right now (because fuck reading 342 pages at this instant) and here's a question: do you feel like you used a lot of the circlejerky past game talk as a crutch in the early game in that one?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Hey, pieguyn, whenever you come back into this game and feel more cooled down here's one for you: do you feel like your accuracy at reading Muffin has improved a lot over the past year or so? In other words, do you feel paranoid of him in games now like you did before (see: my Large Normal) or no?

(I don't know if I'm phrasing these in a way that makes sense.)

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Actually, bork, I don't think you have to go back and look right now. I'll read more of the game (and the scum QT) and form my own conclusions myself - I'll let you know if I need you to do so. I'm asking about it because so far it seems to me that that's the biggest thing that differentiates your early play there from your early play here. I'm trying to think through whether a hypothetical pieguyn-town would have picked up the difference at the moment.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Obviously ours, sorry mod:

At work, will get to the rest of the game when I get home tonight.

@Pie -

I want you to read the two below posts, think about it, read the thread, then let me know if you still think our "push" on you was bad/scum.

it definitely did not come off like it was a weak read. this is more so the case when it was apparently enough for me to be their top scum read.

It was a ridiculously obviously a weak read and it being our "top scum read" doesn't make it a confident one, again it was a page four read based on very little.

"lol, pie being online and not posting = scum". *if* GB is town, it's fucking dumb that they would actually have thought I was scum because of that

Again this is not why we voted you, I can't believe I've had to restate this so many times. Had your original posts not existed we would not have had our vote on you at that stage and if we were voting for this reason alone we'd have voted Molla given that it was a slightly stronger scum-tell given his activity elsewhere in comparison to yours looking worse. If you're going to continue with your "I don't believe he'd use bad reasoning like people being online but not posting" then you should read through two recent examples of me bringing up being active elsewhere on the site as a scum-tell. #1 Micro 373 where I pointed Aegor out being active elsewhere but dodging this game (He was scum). #2 Open 567 where I pointed out ZZZX being active elsewhere (He was town). I've played enough games to notice that scum generally do avoid the thread, pop online, read it and not post more than town do (It's entirely possible for town to do it but it does make someone more than randomly likely to be scum), yours was weakened by the fact that you hadn't posted (a lot) elsewhere on the site and it was early game but the fact that we saw you online three separate times when we were was what made it worth mentioning and at a stage where I didn't have any strong scum reads at all did make me feel slightly better about my vote on you. This isn't a very hard thing to understand?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Last PiePost, then I'm getting to proper scumhunting.

1) RE Post 230 I've explained what about your push I find incredibly scummy and that's how over-blown it is and how the reasoning doesn't add up with what's happened in the thread - the fact that your town-read explanation on Ffyer similarly ignores what happened in the thread points towards scum fabricating reads (There's plenty of scum motivation to fabricate these particular stances, a) You know that Ffyer isn't going to get mslynched and working on pushing her as town read via "TM meta" gives you an opportunity to try and work a way onto her good side while at the same time "faking scumhunting" and b) If you really think that we're a "strong slot" you'd know it's highly likely that we'd catch you and be more confident about you as mafia as the day progresses making pushing back against us the optimal play, allows you either to have a slim chance of mslynching us but more likely a larger chance of de-crediting us and having people go "Oh it's TvT" over it). I'll quote below since it probably better explains my thought process at the time.

I have a town read on ffery. I don't see scum-her walking in here and proceeding to immediately start pushing Empire. the same goes for me given Nacho had explicitly pointed out in their team mafia PT that I tend to be very critical of people pushing me.

who made this post?

p-edit, I kinda agree about pieguy.

The above is your town read on Ffyer and the posts it's based about, the first one isn't her pushing Empire in a way that she'd avoid doing as scum, it's asking a fairly harmless question for her and the second one isn't really 'pushing your lynch' but moreso just agreeing with others that your intro was awkward which has scum motivation behind it if she's mafia so these being the basis of your town read rather than other posts that we were reading as town while at the same time attacking our Ffyer town read read as superficial / fake scumhunting.

GB is scum,

or at the very least their push on me is one of the most awful things I think I've ever seen.

I haven't been fond of their other posts, either. more elaboration on this incoming.

Unvote, Vote: Pie
Quilford vote still isn't bad but

I'm liking this slightly more at the moment, Pies reaction towards Muffin in Post 13 / Post 17 felt over-the-top forced

.

Also I forgot to mention it before but neither of us liked Mollas Post 41 nor the fact that he's active elsewhere but here.

Similarly Pie has been online a lot since our vote on him and the lack of in-thread reaction is making me feel more comfortable with our vote.

The above is you attacking our comments/'push' on you which didn't and still doesn't match what we actually did. We moved what was essentially an early game pressure vote on Quilford towards you because I wasn't feeling it on him anymore and I thought it'd be more meaningful on you since I disliked your intro posts, then mentioned that seeing you online and not in the thread makes me feel better about my vote (And it's p objectively true that I find that as a scum-tell).

2) You claiming to be "Skeptical" of the way we're viewing the game in Post 231 is massively hypocritical given that you yourself are claiming that you're leaning town on the same four players we are (Even if some of these reads are weak for you which guess what some of them are for us too) leaving you with a similar PoE type pool as of now with the one real change being replacing yourself with us so you finding that a scum-tell makes no sense here.

3) In Post 233 you're massively changing what our (Or my) Yuriko scum-read is based around not to mention ignoring that Yurikos Post 55 states that her "confusion" with how this should be played has nothing to do with people knowing each other or peoples play but solely the setup. My issue is that I'm not able to follow her thought process behind her posts (Her post claiming that this is 'scum sided' while bringing up two huge things that point it towards being town sided is an example of this) and I find that she's purposely avoiding scumhunting talk - both of these I read as scum-tells (And again not rock-solid scum-tells but I do want to see more from her and her to explain her thought process in more depth since I'm willing to admit some if it may be based on her being ESL).

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Nacho, I'd really recommend y'know reading this game properly (Post 251 proves you haven't really), if you had you'd realise the only person with a town-read on Ffyer for her asking questions alone is Pie. Also if you still feel the same way then run me through the town read on Pie in depth plz.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

No? I just finished PiePost and am getting a pot of herbal tea on, then going to do a proper reread of the game including everyone elses posts.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Tammys Post 196 strengthens my town read on the Bork slot; I really like the way she's handling Pie/Us and her reach out attempts to understand Pie better reads really genuine particularly in Post 184. Also don't mind Borks Post 175. Like that Ffyers Post 198 mentioned a lot of things that I'd also thought when reading the earlier pages and matches with how she questioned and interacted with people at the time matched the issues she had, I'm less impressed with Nachos recent posts but I don't think they're scummy moreso just frustrating to read. Would be p shocked if either of these two slots were scum at this point and on the off chance that I'm wrong about either I think it'll be p apparent as the day plays out and last I heard from Empire he was p rock-solid on these two being town as well which helps.

Molla, you're going to have to explain the town read on Pie in Post 205 in more detail because the "She used AtE" in Post 207 isn't going to cut it especially when you saw that was what ETL used in TM to get town read so AtE alone isn't something you'd be considering a strong town-tell here at all. Also want you to explain your "everyone here is difficult to read" stance in Post 202 because we're of the opposite stance on that, we think most people are going to be fairly transparent and easy to read as the day plays out. What's your read on Quilford, what's your read on Ffyerhydra, give us some of your thoughts please.

Town read on Quilford is still largely based on tone, would really like him to actually do more scumhunting and actually explain his "I think this is TvT" stance in more detail because he's really only just touched on it - the only thing isn't based on a difference in the word 'push', there's a lot more to this than that.

Not seeing Nachos scum read on RCB either, I'm not confident they're town by any means but I've liked most of there posts and feel like for the most part there thoughts and reads have matched mine, do need to see more from them (particularly Muffin) to have a strong read there.

Still waiting for literally anything from Soft_Spoken and want Yuriko to answer Post 103 when she gets in here.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@Ffyer - I read those posts of Pies and a lot of that is irrelevant given that his town read on you was based on those two lines only, both being incredibly weak and throwaway type lines or questions that aren't unfakeable making his TM explanation not really add up there.

I have read the game in its entirety, Regfan. I'm not particularly inclined to explain the pietown read at this point in time since RBD's read on Pie is a huge part of how I'm reading the slot and I think you are in a tunnel mode wrt pie and I don't think my explanations will be enough to derail you from that tunnel.

I'm happy to wait until RBD posts again but I do want this explained after that and if he's as "obvious" town as you seem to think then explaining it an detail and showing me where/how I'm wrong shouldn't be all that difficult. I'm happy to listen to logic, I'm not convinced he's scum (There are some parts of his reaction that I do read as townish) but there's a lot of issues I have with his reads, stances and attacks on us that he needs to clear up for me.

PEdit: I'll read the posts I'm cut by in a minute and I think Empires just logged!

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@Pie

- I want responses to both Post 228 and Post 254, preferably before I head to bed if possible.

Eh okay other than the Pie and RBD reads most of Nachos other ones match mine in Post 265.

Empires catching up now.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Empires got most of my other thoughts, think he's going back for some for sleep but will post them later. I'm sadly heading to bed too, was hoping to read the PiePosts before I went to bed, likely will wake up and read them in a few hours anyway though I guess.

I'm happy addressing specific points if you want me to. I'm not particularly inclined to type up a wall on why Pieguyn is town because phone and I doubt it will be necessary.

Sure, after RBD posts I'll point out specifically what I want you to comment on but put it this way, the more you explain your town read on Pie then the better chance you have of convincing me that I'm wrong which puts my focus elsewhere and in better places?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

what you're saying here ignores the entire point of my argument. there's a significant difference from actually reading/analyzing mafia posts, and just periodically browsing the site. this is why I thought your angle on me was bullshit - you weren't considering the context. I don't really have any intention of pushing this angle any further since I get expecting me to at least pop in with an "I'm here" post or whatever. however, if you can link me any instances where you called this on someone when they were online elsewhere even though they weren't posting, I'd feel a lot better about it.

Again I don't disagree that context plays a part in the strength of that being a scum-tell, someone avoiding the thread when it's close to deadline and crucial to get a lynch despite being online elsewhere is a significantly stronger scum tell for example but I still find avoidance of popping in and making a post when being online a lot (And you say you were online sporadically, all I knew at the time was the two of had been online a combined three times and seen you online all three of them, heck it's more than like that you're telling the truth because it's a silly thing to lie about but that's not something I knew when I made that comment) a scum-tell, if you need more examples (I'm fairly foggy on the exact context of them and whether it was them being online and not posting, posting in GD or not posting at all), Newbie 1495 about Xay (Scum), Newbie 1256 about LapApe (Town) which was pretty much identical to the post in this game actually.

you literally said this. you actually thought I was scum who felt the need to lie about what the definition of a "push" is, for ... no reason. like, suppose for argument's sake I was scum here. what exactly was I attempting to accomplish by doing that? what in god's green earth do I gain by lying about something that's 1. easily fact checkable, 2. such a major point it's pointless to lie about? even *if* I was scum here, the obvious conclusion is still that this is just a huge misunderstanding. and writing it off bc "scum lie/misrep" is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. it's not about lying/misrep'ing, it's common sense.

I feel I've made it pretty clear that anything resembling poking at someone, asking them questions, putting pressure on them, etc. counts as a "push" in my opinion. I've said this, Quil at the very least pointed it out, but you're ignoring it. this is part of why I really don't see a town approach in how you're pushing this - you keep bringing it up bc you want to look like you have a major point here (that I'm "lying" and thus OMG have to be scum) while hoping no one realizes it doesn't actually make any sense

Do I think you "lying about the definition" is a strong point, no? It's not really what I was trying to say either and it's not a phrase I've used since then (Which was a post I made when I was very very very confident you were scum, something I'm not amymore), I've tried to explain this several times since. The exact issue I have is with your reasoning behind the ffyer town read and your scum read on us (and call of our pushing being awful), ignore the 'definition' of push for a second I have trouble you seeing Ffyers question directed to Empire a town-tell of any sort and similarly have trouble believing the two posts that we made would lead Town!You to "awful/scum", this continues to be a p large concern I have with you.

you didn't fully read 230 (which explains why, despite ffery's initial read on me potentially having scum motivation coming from a general player, it isn't what I would expect specifically coming from her as scum) - reread. Nacho is correct that the entire read is based on her confidence. the initial questioning of Empire was obviously a weak tell, hence why I only had a weak town read on her at that point. after I saw another town tell, I was able to solidify the read.

I did fully read #230 and I don't think it's relevant I've commented on this already, a) Nacho hadn't posted at that point and has been very obviously busy site-wide so claiming that your town read stems from something that involves him doesn't add up and if it revolves around pre-game discussion between the two of them it wouldn't rule her out making a throwaway minor comment stating that she can see your posts being awkward too (It's not a stance she'd be scared to state as scum) and I disagree massively re; you claiming that her being confident is the basis for your town read since it's the opposite that I'm reading town from her. I'm finding the reluctance to make a 100% call on our alignment and her explanation for it genuine.

55 doesn't remotely say that, though. there's nothing there that's indicative of her having trouble reading the player base. to the contrary, 46 and 102 seem to indicate exactly that - that she's having trouble forming reads for play-related reasons. the point I'm making here, though, is that when someone is confused over the setup, that takes a priority over forming reads. and you pushing her over it, again, ignores the obvious explanation - that she just doesn't understand how the setup works. and if someone doesn't get the roles in the setup, it would affect their play in various ways (hence her not realizing that this is essentially a normal setup, except with a different killing mechanism). but it didn't feel like you were really stopping to consider possibilities here. it looks like you thought, "oh, look at this newb who keeps flip flopping and contradicting herself; it looks like I'd be able to push this really easily", and so there it was.

Except that #55 does state that her difficulty here is with the setup and not the play? Bork effectively asked her how this game differs from other games and she stated that it was based on the setup, her popping in on #102 going "yeah its about play too" makes plenty of sense for scum to add - gives them another excuse to hide behin. And fucking again, my scum read on her is a weak scum read, I'm waiting for her to actually respond to my questions to her (Especially since I'm willingly admitted that I might just be having difficulty following her thought process via her location) and actually give reads and content (Empires waiting for specific things from her too) so you constantly stating "you pushing her looks scummy" is another massively-untrue statement.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

it's fairly obvious that I'm not strictly reading everyone outside of {Yuriko, BBM, S-S} as town. I pretty clearly said in the game thread that I would make it a point to nail down the town reads in the meta circle that I feel less strongly about, since I don't feel comfortable with all of them (I literally said I don't have anything outside of vague town feelings for some of them).

you, on the other hand, seem content with it - this is where my issue lies

You have town leans on everyone outside of that PoE pool at the moment, your reads differ in strength, some you're confident about others you're iffy on. Guess what, we're in the same fucking boat and I've mentioned this like 10x now (I can grab quotes if needed but I've explained that I'm far from convinced that Quilfords town and that I want to see some content and scumhunting from him because I think he's lacking in that and that our town read on him is only a tonal one and not a strong one due to it and that our town read on RBD effectively revolves around liking their reads and pushes but isn't a confident one at all and that my town reads are constantly changing in strength) so the bolded actually really really pisses me off and makes me really hope you're scum here.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm catching up now but I want to say that I probably won't be posting a whole lot today. I came back from lunch to see a rejection from a job I really, really wanted and am kind of not really in a fantastic mood right now.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Pie is incredibly incredibly incredibly town. I think I'm going to vote RBD for not seeing that when they should have.

Vote: Rancid Broderick Drake

This is something that needs talked about like ASAP, though. Why does RBD get held to such a high standard of being able to read pieguyn accurately if they're town (assuming pieguyn is actually town here) rather than my slot or Gold Saucer (who I am assuming has been in a number of games with pie)? (Ignore this if this has already been answered, but I am reeling a bit from this vote and I'm not even super confident Muffin is town.)

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I think Gentleman Bastards is probably town; Regfan engaging tunnel mode after pieguyn overreacted to the initial push on her makes sense, and level engagement here is far more impressive than level of engagement in White Flag plus it would be oh so cruel for the RNG gods to give them scum here.

Also, Nacho, have you read any of my posts? I find it really jarring that you didn't even mention me in this explanation for a townread on our slot.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Nacho, that question had absolutely nothing to do with pieguyn and everything to do with your read on Muffin so your latest is a non-answer.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I see bork was asking the same question I was which is neat but I don't believe it was ever satisfactorily answered?

I know I need to ask pieguyn something but I totally forgot what it was.

Right now, still on observation mode while I wait for more content from Soft-spoken (when he's caught up anyway) and Yuriko.

Feel like I've lost my bearings. Maybe coming back to his game when I'm not in an awful mood will help me gamesolve.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@Nacho -

Now that RBD has responded I'd like you to go into proper detail on two things for me a) Your overall town read on Pie (Consisting of all of his posts) as well as commenting on the reasons I am/was scum-reading him for and how you don't find them relevant, b) Your town read on Pie at the point Muffin had stopped posting earlier on (Back when the argument initially started). I'm happy to wait till when you get a computer if it means you really going into this well since I've actually disliked most of your posts re; Pie/RBD and Empire and I have both had a huge issue following your thought process here.

@Molla -

You missed the key thing I wanted you to explain and that's the how you're strongly town reading Pie solely on emotional-basis after seeing ETL massively use it in TM. And the person with the special "tell" on you was Zar, not myself.

I'll get to PiePosts and the rest of the thread when I'm not at work (P much skimmed things on the way to work on the bus and again recently).

Also there's nothing I find overtly scummy in their posts, but I am getting the slight creeps from sangres playing interpreter to pieguyn so much

This bothered me (Mostly Nachos comments and "Pie is very very obviously town" stance) too because I did consider that he was doing a similar thing re; Pie that he did about Ffyer in the Jos Whelan game we played together, looked that game up though and Empires right in that the tone he did it there is very very different to here. That said we're both disliking the reasoning behind his RBD push and find ourselves agreeing with almost every post from Muffin in their interaction which is why I need more from Nacho here.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Works getting slower, I'll leave PiePosts for when I get home since Soft, I want you to explain the "Most legitimate scum-tells are invalid in this setup" stance from Post 367, run me through what scum-tells exactly are invalidated due to the setup and why that's the case. Also you do need to read through pages 6-15, it's all very necessary especially to get a good idea of where peoples reads come from + it's the majority of the content in the game so ignoring it is p idiotic? I find it hard to believe out of everyone in the game the people you're 'following the logic of' the most is Pie and Sangres - explain what

exactly

of their play you find genuine and logical for me please.

Molla, re; Post 431 again wasn't what you town read ETL for at times in TM tone so I don't understand your confidence on Pie being town from that alone, you're going to have to elaborate on it for me. I do like your reasoning in Post 464 behind your Yuriko read though, reads genuine. Also re; Post 467 I think I have been ridiculously ObvTown this game, there's a LOT I've done here I don't think I could fake at all.

Soft, I want you to explain the "Most legitimate scum-tells are invalid in this setup" stance from Post 367, run me through what scum-tells exactly are invalidated due to the setup and why that's the case. Also you do need to read through pages 6-15, it's all very necessary especially to get a good idea of where peoples reads come from + it's the majority of the content in the game so ignoring it is p idiotic? I find it hard to believe out of everyone in the game the people you're 'following the logic of' the most is Pie and Sangres - explain what

exactly

of their play you find genuine and logical for me please.

PEdit: Explain the "nobody has a known scum partner" section.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

And that's what happens when I try to post at work, I post the same bit twice.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

P sure that Softs town from that.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

i have a 70% scum winrate on most of my accounts on EM

Now you've got to out whoever you are at EM (Though I'm guessing I won't know you?); the both of us initially played EM (A long time ago mostly).

Also please answer the still relevant sections of Post 491.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Hahahahah you're Brakes, okay; You'd probably know me as Maxwell there I guess.

I'll have to read the specifics of your town reads when I have more than 30 seconds between work calls. Should be home in a few hours to do it then.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

PIEPOST:

1) RE Top Section of Post 301: My issue here is that what you were essentially claiming to have found "BS" was the fact that I mentioned that I'd seen you online several times which had made me for comfortable with my vote and that your reaction to it was "

most awful thing ever

" - it was so exaggerated that it's not funny, you didn't even consider for a second that it's something I actually find a scum-tell (And guess what I'm far from alone and thinking it's a scum-tell, it's something p widely recognised as an alignment indicative factor, context determines the strength of it but even in this circumstance it's still a scum-tell albeit a very weak one) so I found your reaction there as a "Scum working towards de-crediting and pushing back on me" because it made 10x more sense than town not really considering that it was a very weak read of mine given it was page 4 and again I never ignored context, if it was something that

strongly

impacted on my read on you I'd have been asking people to vote you and repeating it, it was a really small comment and something that I wanted explained from you when you popped in.

2) RE Next Section of Post 301 I think Fferry (I got it right, Zar will be proud of me) sees that post of Nachos in TM, doesn't think a whole lot of it since and really only makes a minor comment stating that she agrees that your reaction was forced and I think you calling that a town-tell read/reads as superficial scumhunting. Put it this way if you're saying Scum!Fferry is going to avoid calling

anything

that's been done by some of the players that can ObvTown themselves scummy that's very illogical and would make her fairly obvscum since she'd be questioning and uncertain of those players as town at times.

Here's what I need from you;

1) I want links to games where you've complained about people using the word forced and genuine to explain reads as town (This should be an easy one for you to find given that you're claiming it's a major gripe you have about how people explain reads and make you think they're scum bullshiting).

2) I want links to games where you've attacked someone for mentioning the phrase active-lurking or have brought up someone being online but dodging the thread as town (Know this one may be harder to find, happy to wait for a few days if it takes you that long for a particular game to come to mind).

3) Links to any games that you were voted or "pushed" in the early game phase and by early game I mean first 5-10 pages of the game, as both alignments.

4) I want a much more deeper explanation behind how you thought we were "content" with our reads (Even if you've changed it since then) as it would mean ignoring a

lot

of our posts. I can understand this partially being caused by tunnel-vision or confirmation-bias but I want your thought process at the time of making that accusation to then proceed to state the same reads we essentially have. Essentially you said you were "skeptical" of us having our main suspect pool the lesser posters while then taking the same stance yourself - it's a sequence that I'm still having difficulty buying.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Okay I'm heading for a run soon then I'm going to comb over everything else and probably throw out where my heads at with everyone.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@ Pie -

Thanks for the meta links, I'll read them tomorrow, it's getting late here and I don't think I can stay up until 2am for this game again and I still want to get through the most recent posts and get my reads out. As for where I stated that I wasn't "content" with all my town reads inside the 'meta-circle' these are the bits I find it hard seeing you miss - Bolded bits are relevant stuff (There's probably more but I'd rather not waste too much time on this), it's pretty obvious that I wasn't in a "Okay they're all def town" position and was still reconsidering a lot of my reads there + there's also a lot behind the scenes as well in discussions with Empire.

Spoiler: Here"

@Quilford -

You would have known I'd be online via seeing my post (which you responded to) in the Melbourne thread.

Anyway while I agree with your reads in Post 96 I find it alone p underwhelming, would like to see more from you; what's your read on Yuriko/Pie/Molla so far?

@Muffin -

I like that your reads are mirroring mine so far (Pie/Yuriko scum, Bork town)

would like to know what specifically of Yuriko that

you

are/were reading as scum at the time of your post though, also would love your read on Quilford with reasoning attached please.

. We're both reading Quilfords tone to match his town one,

it's not a rock solid town read and we'd like to see more content and reads from him but I don't have a scum read on him.

I've liked most of Muffins reads and thoughts so far,

again it's not a rock solid town read

but I do lean towards him being town and know that Empire does too.

Regfan's left me some reads on skype while I was asleep and,

while the strength of some reads have changed

, he's largely dealing with the same PoE pool as earlier {pieguyn, BBmolla, Soft-spoken, and Yuriko}

Town read on Quilford is still largely based on tone, would really like him to actually do more scumhunting

and actually explain his "I think this is TvT" stance in more detail because he's really only just touched on it - the only thing isn't based on a difference in the word 'push', there's a lot more to this than that.

Not seeing Nachos scum read on RCB either,

I'm not confident they're town by any means but I've liked most of there posts and feel like for the most part there thoughts and reads have matched mine, do need to see more from them (particularly Muffin) to have a strong read there.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Okay, here's where I'm at (It's far too late to make it all nice and pretty and add hundreds of links, if you want me to explain any read in more detail ask away - I think Empires going to be posting more here tomorrow so you can ask him since I'll probably vomit a bunch more thoughts to him on skype before I crash).

- I'm ridiculously confident the BorkTammyhyra is town, Tammys reach outs to Pie as well as her reads and analysis of the argument read very much like her attempting to work towards getting a read on the both of us. There's also the fact that I'm reading just about every stance, attack and question that Borks asked as super town is just icing on the cake at this point. Our (Or my) strongest town read by a long margin at this point.

- Softs reaction towards Sangres in Post 367 matches very well with him claiming to have thought that scum weren't aware of each other in Post 490 and Post 494 and does read as him genuinely not realising that scum were aware of each other (Which he'd know they were if he was mafia) which I can buy coming from someone at EM where that's not particularly uncommon (Sniper ect. don't know partners), that said the fact that it's Brakes does weaken it a bit since my memory of him is that he does use uncommon strategies as scum too but the manner that's done here points massively towards him mistaking the setup.

- I'm less confident than before but still leaning on the Sangres hydra being town and weirdly enough I'm town-reading just about every post of Fferrys particular posts like Post 75, Post 93, Post 198 and Post 393 read very town from her, the few posts I dislike are her asking questions that have already been answered in the thread or point towards her missing a post which Empire says is just what she does sometimes and not a scum-tell. And I've disliked just about all of Nachos posts, while I can follow the reasoning behind the "Muffin has scum-motivation to keep a PievReg fight going" I think it ignores a lot of how it actually panned out, I'm really hoping his answers to my questions here ease this qualms I have here because being able to lock this read in as town would be really really helpful here.

- I've touched on Molla but I found his inital vote in Post 41 as underwhelming - my experience with him has seen him often post celebration of being town especially in competent playerlists and was expecting something along those lines so the lack of it was troubling - the fact that it did appear in Post 473 is reassuring though. I've liked most of the way he's interacted with our slot so far and really like his Yuriko explanation in Post 467 as well as his reaction towards Softs posts in Post 497. Leaning town on him, do want to see what Empire thinks of him when he catches up though.

- I'm still not feeling great about my Quilford town read, I weirdly agree with Pie that his recent posts and stances about Soft make sense as scum and I'm still very very underwhelmed by Quilfords "scumhunting" posts - I still want him to explain what

exactly

made him think Pie/Me were TvT as well as have him go into his reads in more detail because right now I don't really have a feel for where his head is at on most people. That said his tone still matches all the TownGame links that Mina pointed out to me in TM and drummed into me that "His meta is day and night" but yeah I want more dude.

- I think Empire stated where we're at on RBD the best when we were discussing this last and that's we find ourselves nodding our head with agreement and understand of every single posts of Muffins so far but there hasn't been a singular post of his that I've read and gone "Yeah okay Muffin is town here for sure" which I'm waiting for sure I think I'm fairly accurate at reading Muffin (I don't think I've misread you, have I?). I'd like to see less him commenting on Nacho/Pie and more his reads elsewhere in the room since that was the large issue I had with his huge wall response to Nacho - it ignored every single other player and he didn't remedy that at all afterwards. I'm notoriously awful at reading Nati (I think I read him as scum in every game I've spec'ed or played with him) so I'm just going to let Empire read through his posts and comment there but my general feeling was the way that he was differing and disagreeing with Muffins reads came across as kind of genuine and town but again I'll probably just attempt to get a read on that slot via Muffin or see if Empire has a strong point I agree with on Nati.

- I'm still leaning scum on Pie but admittedly it's a very weak read right; there's a lot of things I can understand coming from him as town but I still am having a huge difficulty seeing how he could have had some of the opinions he's claiming to have (Also if it's a scum-team of Him+Yuriko or something similar I can also see him going with the all-out-attack that he did against us in hope of being town-read from it since that scum-team are likely boned especially with the reads people had early on) . I'm going to take a day or two away from focusing on him in-thread here though and read through his meta games to see how similar/different they are to here, think that'll help me with this read. Also Nacho going into this town-read in the meantime would help too.

- Still lean scum on Yuriko and still waiting for her to get into this game and respond to my questions but PoE is pointing more and more towards her potentially being scum here too particularly given that I think Softs town now. Not going to comment too much more here at the moment since I know Empires waiting for her to post a bit before wanting to discuss here in thread.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

This is ffery. The vote kinda surprised me when I saw it, but only a little. The group of players who play fairly frequently with each other and started this game with a lot of activity were in the process of linking up almost as a clique, shutting down and shutting out players who haven't played with each other/us much if at all. That's an unwarranted level of complacency. Of that group-that-could-easily-become-a-clique, RBD is by far the least town-looking to me and even more so to Nacho. Sorting them is pretty damned important.

There's a playful humor that underscores everything town-zmuffin posts usually, even when he's verbally eviscerating someone. It was there at the start but it faded pretty quickly. Do you know what I'm talking about in his usual town play? Do you see what I'm talking about regarding his play so far here?

I know what you're talking about re: muffin's playful humor but I don't see that as an exclusively town-muffin thing? To be fair, I don't have the experience you have playing with the guy to know with 100% certainty but my impression is that, differences in experiential meta aside, it seems fairly superficial and easy for muffin-scum to fake? So I don't view it as much of a tell here.

My problem with the vote and Nacho's push here is that it didn't really feel like a sorting at all? I mean, I totally get being squicked out by the cliquish-ness of the game, that's something that's been worrying me a lot here but I didn't get that feeling at all from Nacho's posts. I haven't talked with Regfan at all about your worries re: the gamestate yet, but I find your position to be way more relatable. We actually half-joked about how Nacho is scum and you are town. >_>

I want to read your slot via your posts because I know you better and I'm fairly confident I can read you, but regfan has been much more of a presence, and in fact has spearheaded the interactions with pieguy - the interactions that have kicked this game into high gear. Aside from "I think Empire agrees with regfan?" I really don't have much to go on with your play now that the game is moving. It was even regfan who questioned me about my posts to you earlier.

Aside from my IRL stuff trying its best to get in the way of my mafia addiction, Regfan tends to be the more active head of this hydra and I tend to defer to him a lot more because he's way better at the game than I am and he's more effective at communicating / getting things done. At any rate, even though there hasn't been a full flurry of solely Empire-town effort yet, I feel like I've posted plenty for Nacho to be able to just look at what I'm saying and recognize that I'm town (hell, you seem to have seen it in my posts) so it struck me as off that Nacho had nothing to say about me.

Going to get some coffee and then reading the rest of this game.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I just had the heartiest lol over Soft-spoken and the arsonists thing (spoilers: he's town - especially considering how arsonists work on EM).

My faith in being able to read this game is restoring.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Oh, Plato, I remember you. I was Insanoflex/FingersMcKenzie/Crank/about a bunch of other alts on EM (the first of these was my main). I had the Dean from Iron Giant avatar over there.

Meh, from memory, Plato IS capable of faking shit like that as scum (though it's been a long time), but I think it's definitely way more likely town.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Ok, so I agree with literally everything Regfan wrote in his #543 (which is annoying since now I have barely anything to talk about). The only thing I personally would add to it is that I am really disliking Quilford's reaction to Soft-spoken's townslip thing, read to me like scum exasperated that an easy mislynch as been swept out from under him. Really, really want to see more from him because the tonal townread is fading fast.

Yuriko's becoming increasingly likely PoE scum but I really want her to catch up in this thread and post her thoughts.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Nacho, I understand that the pieguyn push has advantages for Muffin-scum but I don't necessarily agree that that's what he is doing here. I do think the whole "focus on your slot without looking much elsewhere" point is fair and I'm (and it seems Regfan too) am waiting for more reads/thoughts elsewhere.

What do you think about Nati's posts? And are you ready to talk about the pieguyn townread yet?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm doing a 6-hour online CLE seminar so I won't be around much today. Just came around to let you all know.

Regfan's post:

Just got home from origin and for some reason don't have net on my computer so I'll have to get to this tomorrow when I get that fixed after work then.

Also sorry for this bein on the wrong account but the pw I'm trying for gb on my phones not working, hopefully empire pops online and can quote it.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I've got internet working on my computer again!

Reading through now; I'll likely be around the next 30ish minutes.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Alright caught up.

I'll be getting to the Piemetalinks tomorrow after work (Probably drunk after post-work drinks), I know that Empires found some of her recent posts town, I kind of agree on some of them but I'm hoping the meta-read-through will help me get a stronger read there because I still have a

lot

of cocerns with her play here.

Fferrys comments re; Her not entirely understanding where Nachos coming from in Post 552 reads very genuine and town.

We're leaning more and more towards voting Yuriko with every prod-dodgy post she makes (While still being active elsewhere) - we both think it fits with more with scum being unsure on how to proceed in the game given all the town-reads / strong and active players in the game, also helps that we've got town-ish reads on most of the other players here which points towards her being likely scum via PoE alone. I want to see her catch up post (Especially because Empire has a few things he's looking for around her 'content' posts to get a stronger read) before moving though.

@Nacho -

I

sort of

know what you mean in Post 555 re; Muffins posts also making sense as scum which is personally why he's a really weak town read of mine at the moment but I don't think he's impossible to read (I do think I'm batting something like 4/4 in reading him?) and I think you stating that you're pushing him because you can see how the stance he took would be beneficial to scum is

very

harsh (Especially since this logic could be in turn applied to your push on him being very beneficial as scum) and ignores how it all transpired? I still don't grasp your vote and want those three questions answered when you get a laptop.

@Soft -

The "SIGH" by Quiford in Post 523 isn't unusual for him at all - when we were combing through his meta for TM I remember seeing similar comments from his town game, I think he even did something similar inside the team mafia game (Where he was town). That said neither Empire nor myself have liked the way he's handled his read on you nor have we liked his lack of scumhunting. Also not seeing the "Yuriko calling this scum sided" a town-tell, read the post of hers in detail again; she listed several things that point towards it being town sided so her conclusion doesn't match what it should have been at all - it actually reminds me of what a lot of scum did at EM "Woah this setups scum sided we're fucked" type of things to seem town.

@Gold (Particularly Bork) -

Would like your exact read on Molla right now specifically what did you make of his reaction towards SS's 'townslip'. Also plz get Tammy in here more. Also re; Yuriko Empire told me to hold off on her till she posts since she has some meta that he wants to try and read her.

Starting to get a bit wary of GB.

Want this explained in detail please - think you've seen both Empire/myself as scum/town enough to know that we're town here.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I think I've typed up a Town (S->W) list about three times now this game and deleted it because there are too many people that I'm not confident about placing (Which is the opposite of what I'd expected pre-game, I thought I'd be able to easily read and place several players without an issue notably Quilford and Molla and my reads on the both of them are exceptionally weak at the moment), kind of needs to be remedied.

@Muffin -

Ignore Nacho for a minute. Nacho can properly explain the following when he gets to laptop; a) What he's currently reading town about Pieguy, b) What he read town at the time of that post, c) How that leads into a scum-read on you, d) What and why he strongly disagrees with the arguments brought up against Pie when he gets to a laptop. Really hoping that'll clear up a lot there because I'm really not getting his push on you either. For now I'd much rather you focus eleswhere, what's your reads on the rest of the playerlist and some reasoning behind it would be tops. Also your read on Fferrys posts too.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@Muffin -

I'm going to pretend that whole wall of reads was dedicated to me as an answer to my Post 659 despite the fact there was only a minute between our posts. I agree with the majority of your reads there but I do want a few explained:

1) A more detailed elaboration on the town read on Molla would be appreciated ie. What about that series of posts

exactly

are you reading as town (We do agree entirely that if Yuriko is scum that Molla is town though, this is something I mentioned to Empire after he made Post 200 ect.)

2) Would like you to ISO Quilford and let us know what posts of his gave you the townish feel, also would like your thoughts on his SS interaction and scum-read.

3) What about SS's 'townslip' isn't 'solid' to you? More specifically what about my town read on him do you disagree with in Post 543.

4) Which posts (Links/Quotes would be nice) gave you get the impression that Fferry was piggy-backing Nachos scum-read/reasoning on you so much? There may be a few instances where she's shown slight agreement but for the most part I've got the opposite impression from her play so far, feels more like she has some qualms with your play but none of them seem to be based around anything similar to Nachos and I find her stance much more understandable?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Alright I'm heading to bed, I'll be back tomorrow night for the meta reading hopefully not

too

drunk.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I am finally caught up!

Regfan - I'll be here tonight if you come back around. I have plans this weekend though so I'll be around sporadically.

Also, also guys it's official. I'm a doctor!!!!!!!

I am stupid tired, but I think I'm going to go for a run and put some of my thoughts together, so in a bit.

I'm here too if you want to talk about stuff!

Nothing major for me to add right now to the thread, but I wanted to talk about the couple of things I found townish from pieguyn:

1) The point where pieguyn started to read us as town (#286. When I read Regfan's #280, I felt like this was the "point-of-no-return" post where it's like, the townieness is so blatant you'd have to be straight up bad if town to misread our slot. Pieguyn reading that and coming to the realization just felt like the right thing at the right time and I don't think she'd have backed off at this point if scum (she'd have probably done it earlier or not at all).

2) This one's more minor, but her explanation for not having moved her vote off of us despite reading us as town in #635. I remember Regfan mentioned it to me on Skype as something he found problematic but I don't think we had ever mentioned it in the thread. I liked that she took the initiative there and her explanation makes sense.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Something I just thought of:

I sincerely doubt bbMolla is scum. I don't think he's a good enough player to say some of the things he's said in this game in the manner he's said them as scum. In particular, the string of posts that started at #200 is a big part of where my town read on him comes from. If Yuriko is scum, this is even more the case. I think his play in general looks pretty unreserved and a lot of his posts have clicked with me.

Which of Molla's posts do you click with? Because as far as I remember, Molla hasn't stated very many firm reads and I believe he even townreads sangres.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Regfan - I'll be here tonight if you come back around. I have plans this weekend though so I'll be around sporadically.

I similarly will be on sporadically on the weekend, hoping that we bump into each other though since I'd really like your thoughts on a lot that's happened. Also congrats on becoming a

bullshit

doctor.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Yeah, Regfan and I still feel like there's a lot of problems with pieguyn's slot and we're trying to wrap our heads around what's going on over there. To be completely honest, though, I haven't seen the latest in pieguyn scum meta yet (and haven't had the time to explore the links she provided to Regfan) but I do remember her being really bad and awkward at it back in the day. I'd imagine she's gotten better though.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm going through the Touhou UPick one (where pieguyn was scum) and a few of the things I've noticed so far:

1) She's a lot jokier / lighthearted in tone there in a way that suggests she was trying to curry favor with the townies.
2) Complete lack of focus. She throws her vote around in a way that suggests she's not really interested in hitting scum but in going after attractive targets.
3) Lots of scumcasing. Hard for me to explain what this means but I think you two (ffery and Tammy) should know what it means from listening to me talk about it.

This is an old one, though, and I imagine she's gotten these cracks out of her scum game at least somewhat. Let me find a more recent one.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Hell, even in her interactions with Muffin (just got to this part), #1 is a real thing that happens.

Does she tend to appease people who suspect her in her recent games as scum?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I dropped the Touhou UPick game right now to go read S&S2 and there's a lot that is really distressing me :/ (as in, I see lot of parallels between what she did there and what she's doing here).

I think it's worth reading the TM Normal again since I read her as town almost instantly while it was ongoing.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Home for a bit, only a few beers in but just getting started, fuck yeah Friday nights!

I'm catching up and then I'll get around to Pies meta games.

@ Muffin -

I think Empires seeing your Molla read more than I am - I've certainly liked a few of his posts particularly things like Post 256, Post 419 (I think he'd be more likely to 'manipulate' this tell if he thought I believed it as mafia rather than correct it), Post 464, Post 473 and Post 497 of his read town to me. Actually after going over his ISO again and listing those posts I'm more confident in Molla town than before. I still want more content and stances from him though.

Willing to wait on your Quilford read more once you've gone through and ISO'ed him but consider this a reminder to get around to that.

I can kind of get where you're coming from re; fferry and her read on you but the way I've been reading is that she herself is not at all comfortable with the way that Nachos going about it, his confident or his reasoning behind it and has attempted to get him to elaborate on it more so she can understand it - her discomfort with his push actually reads really town which is uber frustrating since if I were reading her posts alone they'd be towntowntowtowntown but ignoring her play we'd quite possibly be considering voting Nacho right now. All up we think they're still probably town but yeah I want Nachos explanation.

Spoiler: @Nacho - Questions I want answered are in the posts below:

@Muffin - Ignore Nacho for a minute. Nacho can properly explain the following when he gets to laptop; a) What he's currently reading town about Pieguy, b) What he read town at the time of that post, c) How that leads into a scum-read on you, d) What and why he strongly disagrees with the arguments brought up against Pie when he gets to a laptop. Really hoping that'll clear up a lot there because I'm really not getting his push on you either. For now I'd much rather you focus eleswhere, what's your reads on the rest of the playerlist and some reasoning behind it would be tops. Also your read on Fferrys posts too.

@Nacho - Now that RBD has responded I'd like you to go into proper detail on two things for me a) Your overall town read on Pie (Consisting of all of his posts) as well as commenting on the reasons I am/was scum-reading him for and how you don't find them relevant, b) Your town read on Pie at the point Muffin had stopped posting earlier on (Back when the argument initially started). I'm happy to wait till when you get a computer if it means you really going into this well since I've actually disliked most of your posts re; Pie/RBD and Empire and I have both had a huge issue following your thought process here.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@ Soft -

Can you run me through the RBD vote? Also I wouldn't vote either of RBD or Sangres right now, leaning town on the both of them - having to pick between voting inside of two town reads is p stupid especially when the strength of both of them are about equal right now.

PEdit: Okay

1) What is your overall town read on Pie based around?
2) What

specifically

did you read town about Pies intially post - added section which

specific

part of it did you expect Muffin to read as town?
3) What about my reasoning behind Pie being scum did you disagree with?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Also added question; your recent posts seem to have

everyone

in the game as town other than Yuriko effectively yet you don't want to lynch her in Post 752 - going to have to explain that to me and then explain who you do want to lynch and why.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Also it probably doesn't need to be said but Tammy is 100000000% town here. Absolutely no way after Post 681.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Oh man I should not be making posts while drinking and having people over, I missed the Pie vote entirely (Not sure how it didn't come up on PEdit).

Nacho you can ignore #1 now - instead run me through your whole read on Pie and how she changed from "obvious as fuck town" to being your vote, the deeper you can run me through your thought process on her the better essentially.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@Tammy -

I think the Nacho/Pie scum-team crack-pot theory (It's something I've considered a little too, mostly because the lack of real explanation behind the town read on Pie and delay on it from Nacho seems similar to how he handled F-16 in Josh Whelan but it's weakened significantly by the fact that Nacho can't just be planning on N1'ing me and getting away without going into it in this game given the mechanic so he'd know full wel he'd have to get around to it) is much more likely than Nacho/Muffin cross-bussing which I really really really doubt here. We're tossing up something like Yuriko/Pie (We think Pies huge attack against us makes a

lot

of sense if we initially nailed the scum-team and most people were already on the right track and similarly I've disliked Pies stances and reasoning on Yuriko) or Yuriko/Quilford (I'm not sold on this being Town!Quilford yet and I dislike his stance on Yuriko too) being the most likely scum-teams at the moment in order of most to least likely. We're p much wanting to lynch in Yuriko/Pie depending on what I get from the meta read (Empires told me a few things that make this seem like Pies scum meta though specifically re; the Serum game though I think using multi-ball for meta is iffy).

PEdit: Agree, I've found almost every mention that Fferrys made of her stance re; Nachos read and push as supertown.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I think I'm actually ready for my first T->S list to be posted in thread, this is the first one I've typed up that I didn't want to delete.

Town (Strongest -> Weakest):

Gold, Soft, [Gap], Sangres, Rancid, Molla [Gap], Quilford?

Scum (Strongest -> Weakest):

Pieguy, Yuriko

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@mod - going to just put this whole hydra on V/LA until Monday due to my (Empire) personal obligations. Regfan should still be around and I'm going to try to do what I can but this is more of a precaution than anything. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Sorry to hear you're having a rough time IRL, pieguyn. :/ I'm around on skype nowadays usually if you need someone to talk to or vent or anything like that.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm out for the majority of today, I'll get around to this when I'm home tonight.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Initial instinct when reading Pies "I think Tammy could be scum" in Post 775 is that it fits the "Scum trying to be town-read via taking an unusual/unlikey" stance, didn't like the "I don't see any point in elaborating" in Post 777 when there would have very much been a reason for Town!Pie to try and point out why someone universally town-read might be scum if she FoS'ed them though the explanation in Post 781 is understandable from her PoV. I do actually really like the explanation behind the read on Muffin in Post 817 though, I can follow the entire thought process in it.

Finding most of the Tammy/Pie discussion re; Capcom and the meta from there entirely useless.

Only got part of the way through Pies meta links the other night and I do agree with Empire that there are some similarities between here and S&S particularly the interaction with Chandra and Mastin but I again don't think it's that's strong a thing given it's multi-ball there and it's plausible he legitimately considered Chandra as part of the other scum-team when making some of those posts. I'm going to get through the rest of the links throughout the day today.

Still pretty much in the same boat of I'm wanting to lynching inside of Yuriko/Pie today, want to talk with Empire and get his thoughts on recent posts though.

@ - Nacho,

I still want the questions from Post 766 answered, I'll repost them below. I'm not going to stop asking so getting around to them soon would be appreciate. Also I strongly disagree with your stance of "I don't want to lynch Yuriko since there's scum in the other 8 players". Lynching Yuriko has several benefits (Muffin/Tammy have gone into this a bit), we town-read almost everyone in the game (Exceptions being Pie and maybe Quilford) which makes Yuriko VERY likely scum via PoE alone, if by some chance Yuriko is town I'd rather know sooner than later since it'd mean stepping back and re-reading the whole thread and if Yuriko is scum well then boom we hit scum and can reread the thread with that in mind - there's a few players mentioning or comments on Yuriko that we think are more/less likely to be partners with her. I'm also growing extremely tired of her "I'm catching up" with zero, absolutely zero game-related content.

1) What specifically did you read town about Pies intially post - added section which specific part of it did you expect Muffin to read as town?
2) What about my reasoning behind Pie being scum did you disagree with?

@ Pie -

Sorry to hear about the family stuff, hopefully everything sorts itself out there.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@ Molla

- Want your current read on Pie/Us/Muffin with explanations behind them in detail plz.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Empires preoccupied by RL things, was hoping he'd be the one to come in here and pretty much say "What the fuck are you doing this game" to Nacho since I think it'd have more impact and Nacho would be more likely to respond to him rather than brush me off but since he's busy; What the fuck are you doing Nacho? Explain the intital Pie town read (I want this in depth considering you said he was 'very very very obviously town', explain the exact thought process behind voting him (I still want you to comment on the reasons I was/am scumreading him for), explain the change to Quilford and most important explain the "Yuriko shouldn't be lynched but is highly likely scum" stance because the two of us agree that post of yours (and the whole series on that page) was absolute garbage.

Haven't liked either of Yurikos catch ups so far (She's overplaying the "This is so hard to get reads because all of you know each other!" type card far far far too much rather than actually commenting on peoples posts that have real relation to the game, her focusing on things like Muffins PGO claim is a prime example of this), willing to wait for her full catch up but at the moment p likely to be moving my vote there. Still have more Piediscussions to have with Empire though.

Softs a lock in my "Never ever lynch" group of town reads alongside with TammyBork hydra both of us read Softs Post 743 as incredibly town and have liked his recent series of catch up posts - p much no concerns about any of his posts at all, same goes for TammyBork.

@Molla

- I really did want your reads explained in detail for me, some thought process from you would be much appreciated.

@Quilford

- I'm around now if you want to talk and I'd hardly consider your 'hesitation' in calling us town similar to yours re; us? I think we've posted a LOT of content/reads/stances that we'd never have done as scum (There's probably 10-20 posts I'd not be able to fake as scum) whereas there's nearly nothing from you in the thread so far that hasn't been dragged out of you. Also your explanation that what you disliked was "Giving Soft town points re; the slip and EM" in Post 854 doesn't really make sense either, it's not the sole post that he 'slipped in' that I read as town, it's the natural progression re; him questioning how scumhunting is possible in a setup like this and that most tells are nullified to then slip in that manner, it all reads as very genuine.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

i wonder if the CHAPTER posters find my multi-posts as annoying as i find trying to read their chapters.

I don't care how people post (Walls or short series of posts) as long as they're not spamming the thread into an unreadable amount of pages and are actually posting about game relevant things. I do hope you've actually read my posts though - I do make an effort to condense them as much as I can.

Would like a quick summary of where your reads are at exactly.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@Molla - Happy to wait till tomorrow, do want it explained though.

my reads are ATM... pie is town. most people are town-leaning (sangres slot recently moved from town to town leaning for me thanks to nachos posting) quil gives me the WTF's but im not sure that qualifies as a scumread. yuriko is begging for a policy lynch. this game is rather unreadable as a whole to me right now.

Mind elaborating on what your current read/thoughts on Muffin, ourselves, Bork and Molla is at the moment (Sounds like you're reading all of us as town but I want to know the strength of the reads in comparison to each other). Also if you're unsure if you've actually got a scum-read on Quilford at the moment if a gun were put to your head right now and you had to guess the scum-team who would you pick?

Don't think this is an accurate characterisation at all.

I certainly do; I still have no real idea where where your thoughts are on a lot of the players in the game other then "Townish!", there's not a huge amount of detailed explanations behind reads listed and the larger parts of when you do touch on it is after I've pushed you for stances which is a huge problem I'm having with you. Also you wanted someone to be online at the same time as you, I popped on but there's not much you seem to want to discuss, I'm around for the next hour if you're still interested in discussing reads, tomorrow night works for me too.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Hey Tammy, Regfan and I just got done talking for a bit (though the conversation revolved around other slots) and he'll probably post his own thoughts but I figured I should do my own thing here. I haven't had much time today for anything mafia-related because life's been kicking me in the face this week but if you want to look at the scum game we used for comparison for TM, it's here. I think you'll find that there's a wealth of difference between his town play in TM and his scum play in that game (he's a lot more robotic and stiff in the scum game and definitely nowhere near as active).

I think his tone in this game hits the townspot but he is definitely a lot more passive here. I don't really think this is much of a scumtell as I can see him struggling a bit in this game as town (as I think we all are to some extent).

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Actually, I just noticed Nati was in that game, too.

Does Nati have any thoughts on Quilford? I did a CTRL + F search through Drake's ISO but I think only Muffin's talked about him?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

GB seems to type to be feared as scum

I don't have time today for mafia either but Regfan left me a message re: this post and my response is "LMAO". If anything, we would be the afraid ones here. Regfan is pretty bad and obvious as scum and I'm even worse.

Also, Regfan said he liked Nacho's latest posts (and I agree, from the cursory look I took at them) and that he is fine coming back to a {Gold Saucer, Soft-spoken, sangres} town bloc. This is where I'm at too.

P-edit: I feel you, bro, life's being pretty un-dank to me too.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I've only got a few minutes before I'm heading out (Will respond to Nachos posts when I get back later or tomorrow morning) but wanted to say can follow his thought process a lot better now, in particular really like the explanation behind the vote and rescinding of vote on Pie now and am very comfortable with that slot being in my ubertown pool now. Really see no way that any of Soft/Gold/Sangres are scum which alone makes PoE much stronger.

Still think a YurikoScum lynch is the best bet right now, likely going to move our vote there tomorrow especially if there's no content and continuous "Still catching up", "This is hard!" posts. If I'm right about Yuriko being scum Molla joins my ubertown pool for interactions/his push with her.

Do want another read through on Pie, quickly discussed him with Empire earlier and we're both still uncomfortable with him and STILL don't see the town-reads on him (I really don't take the "I've played with him, this is is town meta!" type reads as worth much without a proper explanation behind how his posting had town motivation inside this thread and I disagree with the "He has no real scum motivation to push back like that" when a) If he's scum with someone like Yuriko in a playerlist like this attempting to get town-read via a big "Attack" like that would be optimal play and b) I still find the way he went about it hard to fathom from town (I find it very hard to believe he strongly believed that the two lines we'd said about him was us 'strongly pushing him as scum' especially given the context of both of them). I think I do need to read Nachos posts re; the town read more but I think he's got more to come on that so I may wait?

I also want to go through Quilford more, I think Empire explained it best when I spoke with him, the biggest issue re; Quilford is the lack of pro-activeness in getting reads and pushing the game forward - there's not a lot of voicing of where in particular he's uncertain and actions to remedy that (For instance his "doubt re; us" doesn't add up with him not really voicing a) Why this was the case initially or b) Attempting to get a better read on us via asking us questions or wanting us to elaborate on particular reads of ours. I also really disliked his reaction / response to me, Empire thought it was "robotic" but I'd describe it as more slimy - the way he attempted to compare our read on him with his read on us was baaaad and ignores a lot of what has happened in the thread re; content / posts / stances taken.

Also Soft - Tone is probably not what's best to use when reading when (I don't think it's the best thing to use re; Empire either) since I'd consider my playstyle largely logic-based, biggest differences and most noticeable between my town/scum game is probably amount of real content/reads (I hate hate hate hate being scum and the lack of motivation and lack of posting due to it is huge) as well as their accuracy (I hate BoP being used but it's sadly an effective way to read me).

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Dropping in to say not cc'ing.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

BASED

Uh, yeah, molla leave as much as you can out here I guess before we hammer. Otherwise, I'll talk to Regfan and make sure there's nothing else we need to do.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm really happy Molla is the firefighter and not one of the three townbloc townies, personally. This game should be a bit easier tomorrow.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Bork, seriously, talk to your other head about my slot. That's all I'm going to say.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I need to look at the Drake/Quilford/pieguyn trio tomorrow. I still think Regfan has a lot of reservations with pieguyn's play.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I left Regfan a message asking him if there's anything we need to do or discuss in the thread before we lay down the hammer but he hasn't responded yet. He's probably still asleep.

Could it be possible to wait until he comes on?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm here and caught up and weirdly don't actually have a message from Empire so skype must be fucked at the moment? I'm fairly happy for the day to end, think we can re-read for interaction and analysis during the night phase, not really much discussion that can't wait until tomorrow as it is.

Glad that we were right on Yuriko being scum, partially think we should have been risky and lynched without asking for a counterclaim mainly because scum fish out that PR there 100% of the time and the manner she claimed wasn't even remotely genuine but meh should still be an easy win from here.

@Bork -

I don't really understand either of your Post 964 or Post 965, pretty much my point is that Nachos saying that he thinks Pies reaction and response towards us is a town-tell for the reason that he thinks it's too big a 'risk' for Pie to do as scum (The risk being it garners attention towards him and leaves us as an 'enemy' of him). I'm saying that if Pies scum with someone like Yuriko (And look; Yurikos scum, shock, horror!) then he has a lot of motivation to make a post like that as scum; motivation being that we'd have nailed the scum team very early on and that almost everyone was already on the right track at that point, doing something to de-credit us while subsequently hoping to be town-read via the reaction would be optimal play. What about that do you disagree with/don't understand?

Have you read #879?

Yes, I have and I don't like it at all, while I get that there wasn't a lot of resistance on your end to answer questions it shouldn't be needed for people to ask them to you to for you to state or elaborate on your thoughts and reads and I don't think you've really done that voluntarily at all.

I literally have no idea which post of mine you're referring to when you say "doubt re; us", given that that phrase appears in approximately zero of my posts.

Here:

Starting to get a bit wary of GB.

Where did I attempt to compare your read on me with my read on you?

Here:

A

Starting to get a bit wary of GB.

Want this explained in detail please - think you've seen both Empire/myself as scum/town enough to know that we're town here.

You've seem me as scum/town enough to know that I'm town here, hasn't stopped you from having doubts has it?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Huh okay a bunch of messages just came through at once on skype, the fuck.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Ok, does anyone want to SPEAK THEIR LAST WORDS before I lay down this hammer?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm going to get some coffee and food and then I'll hammer if no one else has anything pressing left.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Also I'll go back and look but that wasn't my internal impression of what Nacho was saying. I thought he thinks it's a towntell for pie cause of pie-specific reasons

Below just one of Sangres mentions of the 'town-tell' from Pies early posts that Nachos elaborated on; he constantly mentions that he doesn't think Pie would make that sort of response since it's a huge 'risk' - I'm explaining why I think he would particularly in the instance where Yuriko is his partner (And Yurikos relevance to this is quite simple and obvious and something I thought I made clear; If it's a Pie+Yuriko scum-team then all of the easy to read players/hydras ect. are town and scum are instantly in a bad position, everyone was FoSing one of Pie/Yuriko at the time of Pies first post and we'd scum read the both of them, if the scum team is Pie+Yuriko there then scum are in a really really really bad position in which case making a huge aggressive push back on us to de-credit us and hope to be town-read via it makes a LOT of sense). And I've

constantly

stated that I find it hard to believe that the lines that Pie was pushing forward, the strength of his read and his aggressive is something I have difficulty seeing from town,

constantly

so you saying I've never mentioned that is god damn awful by you. I'll ditto Empire here in that you need to talk with Tammy about this, she'll likely be able to explain my thought process much better to you.

my initial thoughts re: that push was that it was a strange line in the sand (and a horribly horribly horribly horribly early one) for pieguy to draw. when you make a push like that as scum, you're putting all of your eggs, all of your hopes and dreams, into a basket. when you push a player like that as scum, they will scum read you pretty much every time, and it's very very hard to make that suspicion go away after you make a push like that, especially after you give up your power after being inevitably forced to town read the slot. these risks are compounded exponentially with the setup. if you do successfully mislynch them by some stupid, stupid, miracle they are still alive forever to fuck you over. if you get them to give you a little space, fucking sucks for you because can't kill them the first night and killing them in the second is a massive waste. I didn't think pieguy would be willing to take a massive risk as scum so early.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

the partner would have to presuppose that Yuriko was just gonna pretty much curl up and die from the start and that's not something that was even remotely obvious to me was going to happen at that point in the game

-b

I'm not Regfan but, um, seriously? That would have been obvious to me in the pre-game, let alone after her initial posts.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Like, think about it, you're scum in a game with four hydras that include transparently town players like myself, Regfan, Tammy, ffery, etc and your partner is a newbie named YurikoJasmine. How do you not think she's going to fold immediately?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Uh, I don't feel like I understand anything about someone's personality merely from the fact that they're new to the site (and she really isn't, she just doesn't play much)

-b

Sure, join date can be deceptive but you are damn well going to make assumptions about her abilities based on that fact that she seems like a fish out of water in this playerlist. Example: when I was scum in the TM Vanilla Nightless, I made a bunch of assumptions about the quality of SilverWolf's scum play (they were not favorable, to say the least) despite the fact that I had never even heard of her before that game. I think that if pieguyn were scum with Yuriko, it would lead to pieguyn making the same assumptions.

And if she doesn't play much, then that obviously means she doesn't have experience and she'd still qualify as a "newbie" despite the join date. I've seen people with join dates older than mine play like newbies before simply because they don't play very many games.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

ALSO I JUST GOT A JOB INTERVIEW FOR A PLACE UP IN MADISON, FUCK YES FUCK YES FUCK YES

[Gentlemen Bastards]

It's the place that hito works at. God, after MONTHS of hardcore searching I finally got a fucking interview.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Uh dude, Regfan wanted me to tell you that he doesn't townread Quilford and that he thought his last few posts made that obvious...

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I would also like how making a big attack on a player who is obviously town is optimal scum play. When you have a weak partner in a playerlist where getting mislynches is hard, you need good credibility to force through the mislynches you need since you can't rely on town error. Making a big attack on someone who will obvtown themselves pretty much immediately means you are going to be proven wrong in a big way, which kills credibility. The actual optimal strategy with a shit scum partner is to have an interaction that makes you look as town as possible, and then start making big plays after they're dead and you are swimming in town cred from their death.

Because when said obviously town player has identified both you and your partner almost immediately, the only thing you have left to do is to attack the player and discredit his posting. It's a last resort kind of thing.

At any rate, I personally am still waffling on pieguyn but both Regfan and I still have problems with her play.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Well, at least on my end, I'm waffling pretty hard between them. Like, I acknowledge that pieguyn has some town posts (I believe I even pointed a couple of them out) but the issues remain.

Anyway, if no objections, I'm going to hammer since we can just keep talking tomorrow.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Still fairly confident Yuriko is scum (Molla has little reason to CC, doing so still leaves scum in a ridiculously uphill position and given he was town-read by the entirely of the room he's got no reason to piss away that town-read like this as scum) - do want to see what Empire makes of her recent posts when he gets up.

@Bork -

Sorry if I seemed aggressive last night, just annoyed when people haven't really read my posts properly and then try to say they can't understand my reads because I've never stated X when I have multiple times. Still urge you to talk with Tammy about us though, also would like your hydras updated read/thoughts on Quilford and Pie - I'm happy to wait until tomorrow though; it's not exactly relevant for today and we'll all be here tomorrow.

@Nacho -

We're pretty much in a position where we're super confident that Soft/Tammybork/You are town and that the scum therefore is inside Muffin (I still lean town on him and there's some interaction stuff that makes him more likely town if Yurikos scum which I think is the case right now; her comments about him being a PGO repetitively for instance) leaving scum inside of Quilford and Pie and yes I do lean moreso Pie than Quilford at the moment but I don't town-read Quilford at all? I've explained the issues I've had with Quilfords play; problem is I have slightly more with Pies at the moment (The comment you quoted about Pie not replacing out is something I'd have agreed is a town-tell in the past but in the last 6 months I've seen 5+ players as scum fake-considering or actually fake-replacing out to then take the slot back as a strategic ploy to be town read so it's not something I really want to read much into). What really would help is your big explanation behind your town read on him, the more you elaborate on the better chance you have of convincing me it's not Pie and therefore it's Quilford.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Vote: Gold Saucer

We did some interaction reading earlier which points heavily towards them being scum. I will be posting a big wall case on them later.

- Empire

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Regfan, you are the worst.

Unvote

Uh, I need to look back at interactions and stuff whenever I get like the 5 minutes of free time that I can. Regfan told me that he thought Yuriko's reaction to Drake's PGO claim points to them being town and I am inclined to agree.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@Nacho

- I'll get around to reading your posts re; Pie/Quilford in depth tomorrow when I'm not distracted with a few others things going on.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm re-examining the early game pieguyn stuff now that I think I am a lot more neutral and detached today than I was when it was happening and uh the Yuriko-based stuff really rings all sorts of alarm bells in the scumhunting portion of my brain.

I think this has to be my first hydra slip ever.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I disagree.
What type of reaction did you expect her to have if Muffin was her scum buddy?

I missed this. I would have expected her to have no reaction at all? That's me personally, though. I don't know if Regfan agrees with me on the reasoning behind it even if the conclusion is the same.

P-edit: Soft, I'll do it when I finish going over her ISO. But the thing that comes to mind is that it feels that her townread on Yuriko is too easy and some of the points she was making against my slot in the early part are based in part on that townread.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

is pie the type that gets 1st level scummy to look town? because town-reading your horrible scum partner is def counter-intuitive

I mean, my inclination when I'm scum with someone who I think is going to really suck is to bus them hard - my problem is that I don't think my way of thinking about strategy as scum is the norm. I don't know the intimate details of the inner workings of pieguyn's scum mentality when she's scum but it's a possibility that pieguyn could have seen Yuriko as someone she couldn't afford to bus and the early game confusion that Yuriko was trying to mimic gave her the avenue for a surface-level townread.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Empire have you had a chance to read through Nacho's late-day-1 posts about pieguy?

Not yet. I think I should be able to have more time after my job interview tomorrow. I'm just kinda getting that anxiety where like I'm really afraid the game's going to go south even though we are wrecking and there is no inclination of us losing.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Regfan told me he was busy last night and couldn't get to the game yet and I have The Job Interview in an hour (wish me luck!) so I will get to this after it's done.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Sorry that I've neglected this game as of late, had my attention elsewhere but will be getting to this later tonight more than likely which includes reading Nachos big walls and town-read on Pie.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@Nacho -

Okay, finally had time to sit down and read through Post 1088, I'm not going to go into a quoting frenzy with you so I'll try and keep my points fairly concise (I lied, it's not concise). I think points 1)/2) are fairly weak so if you want to respond mainly to 3)-6) that's fine, 3 and 6 are the main ones.

1) The logic of "While scum might feel up against it they're unlikely to take risks straight out of the gate in practice" is something I strongly disagree with; I know several of my off-site scum games where I've played in that manner and won by doing it -- I've seen similar things on and off site by others too.

2) I don't think him "breaking the mould" and joke claiming sccm is a town-tell at all, I think he felt compelled to respond to RBD's accusation and thought that covering it off as a joke would be best to do that -- it's the tone and manner he did that read very mildly scummy.

3) a) I don't disagree that it's very plausible he was holding us to a higher standard than he probably should have been and thus legitimately disliked some of our points, I can agree that him attacking our Bork read strength is slightly understandable via expecting more from us / me to know Bork.

b) I strongly disagree with your point on Yuriko here, it was never a case of "Yuriko being wrong = scum" and you you should know this and he should have too if he was reading our posts, him attempting to push it down to something like that and belittle our scum-read on Yuriko there makes a lot of sense if they're partners and he wants to de-credit us. Our (Well my) issue with Yuriko was several things A) Her spending more time on setup-discussion than scumhunting, B) Her using setup discussion to cover up for stating reads in a way that had scum-motivation and her reasoning behind "being confused" reading as fake and C) It wasn't the final stance of hers (Scum sided being wrong = scum) that I had an issue with it's the fact there was a disconnect, a contradiction in her post. In other words via her own logic she should have had X (Town sided) conclusion but picked Y (Scum sided) - which matches with the common scum-tell that I noticed back at EM that scum always pretend that town are "boned" more than they really are to seem town.

c) I also disagree that I used "strong" language when voting Pie, I can understand being annoyed and frustrated by the "online/activity" tell being used but I don't think she could have read the thread and objectively thought that our push was us being confident or attempting to mslynch him which is essentially what he's claiming to be the case then -- again this is a key point and what I want you to respond to; his reaction reads as very exaggerated because I think anyone reading the thread properly, noticing it was only page 4 and noticing that we only had 2 minuscule posts about him would have realized it wasn't a "strong" vote or an attempt lynch him but moreso just a pressure-vote, the over-reaction does have scum motivation moreso with Yuriko!Scum.

4) The point about her stating please hold being her exciting to "bury scum" is something I may have partially agreed with but for Post 132, I think him copying someone elses posts shows less him getting caught up in the heat of the moment as town and more him fabricating and drafting a scum-push to be read as town (The point Muffin had re; Pie taking quite some time to make those posts holds some weight here).

5) Find it really hard to respond to your points of "He's not capable of doing this stuff as scum and it'd require him to up his game an unbelievable level given the situation" (Take for instance his Post 266) because I don't know him how his mind and scum game works enough to make a legitimate comment and sadly I also don't trust your ability to meta-read him convincinly too (I've gone into this before but there's very few peoples meta reads on a certain few other people that I'd actually take weight in, I've seen too many incorrect meta reads lose town games within the last year).

6) Since I think you want this to have it's own point you're essentially saying you think Pies Post 784 is too much emotional-manipulation to come from scum; I don't agree, I'm not sure how used you are to EM/chat mafia ect. but the degree of emotional manipulation that's used to buddy people and seem town is extreme and it's not something I consider unfakeable at all, I'll be the first to admit it the more that I want to win a particular game as scum the further I'm willing to go to "break meta" and "use emotion to manipulate people" and I don't see why Pie would be any different, I know for instance if I drew scum in a playerlist like this my first instinct would be resignation and a lack of motivation but when that passed I'd have gone an "all or nothing" strategy to fake something that people would never consider me faking to get town-read and then try and coast of that.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Molla, Soft and Sangres are still 100% town.

Not going to lie I did have a moment of paranoia re; Borkhydra largely due to also thinking that Borks Post 969 would make sense as him encouraging her to claim FF and then pushing for a CC in Post 971, I was confident enough in Yuriko being scum and the manner she claimed to be scum that I'd have yelled for no counter-claims ahd I been online at the moment and there would be scum motivation behind Bork using Yuriko to bait out the doctor as scum but Empire pointed out he'd have likely mentioned Yuriko to do that pre-game thus not needing to do it there which is fair - the vote on Gold in Post 1106 was largely trolling (Empire promised me one chance to troll Tammy when I agreed to hydra though he'll deny that, bastard) but also partially because I thought it'd be very easily to confirm a read on Tammy via her reaction towards that (I think as town she'd brush it off as trolling which it mostly was and as scum she'd act a bit more panicked and worried) but Ive liked Borks reads and thoughts in Post 1192 enough that it's not really needed, another TownTammy post or two and I'm happy to push them back into the 100000% pool -- I think Empire still has them there though and realistically I do too but I'm selfish and want to be absolutely sure before we nail this game down.

So yeah, we're still in a Muffin/Quilford/PieGuy pool.

You know where our heads out with Pie.

Both of us strongly dislike Quilford sticking Molla in the mid tier in Post 1162 - I find it nearly impossible that he'd forget that Molla CC'ed doc and I can see him attempting to fake a "town-slip" to dodge the lynch here as scum, similarly dislike the vote on Gold, the lack of reasoning behind it is the most problematic since if he really thinks they're potentially scum then convincing those of us that are/were superconfident that they're town would be the move which he's not doing. I've been pushing Empire to prod and poke Quilford for reasoning behind his reads but since he's busy I'll do it. I can very much see him as scum and his reasoning of "Attempting to explore other avenues than Yuriko" in Post 1059 is also something I have trouble buying him doing. P much I'm slightly more confident in Pie being scum than Quilford but I very much can see Quilford being scum here; Empires described Quilfords recent play and posting specifically his interaction with Sangres in Post 1181 ect as 'trolling' which he thinks is much more likely to come from Scum!Quilford than town given the situation.

I still lean town on Muffin though it's not a ;rocksolid; read like I'd like it to be - I liked his push on Yuriko especially as the day progressed and liked his reaction and response to Nacho, I found myself agreeing with almost every single post of his, I've yet to have the "Thats ubertown, no chance he's scum" reaction to one of his posts though the opposite is also true, I've not seen a single red flag in his play yet and I think I'm p solid in reading him.

So yeah in summary I'm p much still in a Molla/Sangres/Soft->Gold->[Gap], Muffin are town and think Pies slightly more likely scum than Quilford -- Will admit that Quilfods recent posting is probably worse though and when I get more time (i'm still fairly devoted elsewhere atm) I'll go over the two of them again.

@Quilford

; Run me through the explanation behind your strong town read on us, your mid-tier read on Sangres (And how you forgot that Molla was the doc) and your scum-read on Gold in detail please. And I mean real detail. Also what about your posts/play should I be town-reading from an individual game perspective AND from a meta perspective (I know you've said that as scum you'd not post much but I'd argue that's kind of what you've done/are doing here).

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Please find any given scumgame of mine in which I have ever trolled anyone

It's not a meta point at all - it's a case of we can see you giving up and turning to trolling here as scum since it's a p unwinnable position for you, to win you'd have to somehow dodge 3 or so lynches and force through mslynches on players that are p much universally town-read.

Anyway I dedicated most of the day to other things (lot on my plate atm and yes I know I've been making that excuse since forever but it's no less true), I

'll come here properly tomorrow or the next day but we have so much time?

We do have time and I'm happy to give you a day or two (I myself need time before I dedicate more time here too) but my patience will dwindle every time you pop in with troll-type posts rather than actual reasons behind your reads - I'm still bothered by your lack of real analysis in the thread so far.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@Bork; Scum-read on Yuriko wasn't PoE based for us and I think the manner/way she claimed made it p obvious she was scum where I'd have not let a counter-claim occur and I know that it's the "safe play" ect. and if I was unsure on Yuriko or had several scum reads in the game I'd have certainly pushed for a counter but I didn't and while the "gain" isn't huge it can almost be an extra-lynch in the game numbers wise.

It is a meta point because I'm sure I've been in tonnes of such situations as scum

Find it hard to believe there's a similar situation to a game like this where there's a lot of strong ObvTown players that can't really be night killed with a scum partner down D1 in a two scum player team. If there is links please?

Btw every time you call my posts trolling I become less and less inclined to bother to convince you because I feel like I'm not going to be able to cut through. Plus the temptation to put in no effort so I can just get lynched and flip confirmed town tomorrow rises.

The whole "I feel like I'm not going to cut through, tempted to put no effort in" is silly considering if you'd read our post our scum-read on Pie is slightly stronger than on you -- I just need some content, explanations and stances from you to feel better about you and that's lacking so far.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I am objecting to the fact that you are projecting the expectation of behavior onto me (your reads should really have nothing to do with this) and saying that what I think was an extremely reasonable response was potentially scum motivated enough that you moved me down a tier in reads.

It was the manner in which you prodded her to claim that I took issue with; it very much like you put in her mouth to claim FF, that was my concern, don't get me wrong I can get and understand the whole "lets play it safe and get a counter-claim" stance and I don't think you doing that instantly makes you scum at all, it's just the way the whole thing played out made me slightly paranoid about you guys (It was p much a if I'm wrong about a strong town read, that might be it) which is why I wanted to test it via reaction-testing/troll-voting Tammy, since then I really liked your post though and am p convinced once I see a few more posts from her then I'll have absolutely zero qualms with your slot whatsoever, until then yes I'm more sure Soft and Sangres is town than you are.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I feel like you're not reading my posts or the game at all if you actually think I'm scum-reading your posts, I have no idea how you've come to that conclusion at all; I'm pretty damn confident you're town (So the whole "You've forgotten how to read me!") thing is pretty bullshit and real low blow, what I want and was after from your slot was

just a bit more

so I can entirely rule you out and never have to worry about revisiting there even for a second, I've been able to do that with Sangres (Took a while to be confident there for me, needed to understand Nachos thought process more and I now do) and Soft, pretty much we're working to win this confidently via process of elimination; given how the setup works if we can rule 3-4 people out completely it's unloseable.

I don't think your reaction would have been an entire "panic", I don't think you'd react so obviously as scum but I did think there

would

be a difference in how you'd react as town in comparison to scum to the vote so no I don't think it was a futile attempt whatsoever. As for suspecting Borks attempt to prod Yuriko into claiming FF, I mentioned that we'd discussed that and thought it'd be more likely that it would be a conversation that would have occurred pregame rather than in the thread but it still was something that

did

make me paranoid when reading over for interactions and I did want to remedy by getting more from you -- and all I expect from you is a post like yours above, just an idea of where your heads at, that's really all I need from you - if you've got concerns or aren't confident in your reads that's fine, share that, we're trying to do the same with our reads, pretty much work

with

us.

And you clearly don't understand this setup - no one dies until scum pull the trigger, this means they could have (and likely did) target Molla last night and whenever they pull the trigger he'd die - I'd suggest reading up on it a little more, maybe you'll understand how the setup really works and why we want to confirm and lock in town reads because we're not going to have night kill flips until deep in the game more than likely.

Also I responded to Nachos points because Nacho wrote the whole thing for me -- not explaining where I agree/disagree with him would be silly, the idea is for him to convince that Pies town if that's the case which entails showing me how my read on the situation is incorrect. I'm happy for him to focus and post about other things, there's no rush for him to get back and respond to my points and I'm by no means wanting Pie to avoid posting in the thread.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Here's the relevant setup section (And Molla shouldn't be announcing his targets):

- Factional Pyrotechnics: Each night phase either you or your partner may take

one and only one of the the following actions:

Prime a target for ignition

by dousing them with gasoline.

Ignite all previously primed targets

by lighting them on fire and thus killing them.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

The fuck?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I don't think you've been as open as of late as to what I'm used to from you - there's snippets and small amounts from you or posted by bork from you and that's fine and understandable since I know you're quite busy IRL at the moment but I think you know there's a difference between when I'm 100% confident and would bet ANYTHING on someone being town and when I'm relatively sure they're town -- other than Borks prompting to Yuriko I've had no real issues with his play and I've like a lot of his angles of questioning, he's read very town but not 100% town, not in the same tier as my Soft and Sangres town reads, there's particular posts from you that I'd doubt would ever come from scum but not enough of them to make me not have the occasional slight doubts which is why I wanted a few more posts from you which I now have. I'll run through the numbers when it's not 3am but this game really is unloseable if we have enough agreed upon town-reads and locking in reads 100% is what's needed to do that, it's what we're working towards and it's why I wanted more from you.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

All up not a whole lot; initial instinct when reading it was that tonally I think it matches his town play more but I don't think it's a difficult thing to fake at all.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Alright I'm heading to bed. Would like your (Not Borks) updated read and reasoning on Pie in the meantime.

Also Soft again; the fuck?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Day hasn't been open for that long and I've been trying to get through some of quil's meta and catch up on real life stuff I got behind one, which I posted about and asked a question about on Monday but I don't think that empire responded. Or at least to tell me what town game they used as a reference for. I don't feel completely confident that quill is scum but I don't know what else to do if he's not except curl up in a ball and hope the game ends soon.

Hey, I'm still catching up in the thread but the town game I'm using here as a baromter for Quilford-town is the TM Open. I actually don't remember off the top of my head what town game we used as a baromter while TM was ongoing but I'll try and look it up (and also asking Regfan. I still have the issue where Quilford's tone here doesn't match the scum game at all (especially in his responses to suspicion).

P-edit: God, I'm already getting flashbacks to The Game That Won't Be Mentioned, except pieguyn is Andrius.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

If you want to give Papers, Please a shot, that could be an ok one? I think that one is Quilford's most recently finished game. Although his activity wasn't great and he was a town mason.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Tammy, I'm looking through our TM PT and I can't find the Quilford town game we used at all (although I could be wrong that it existed and it could have been just a comparison to the scum game).

Regfan just popped in and he's said "Tammy's town", which I'm taking it to mean he's sure about the read now (he can correct me if I'm wrong). He's also conflicted about the Quilford self vote. Both of us think that pieguyn is the most likely scum here :/

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Okay yeah that game wasn't too helpful. The only thing that has really bothered me about quil was his using the excuse of their being too much meta to be able to really give reads when his strength is in parsing rhetoric, but even for the non-meta stuff there wasn't a huge attempt to find the rhetoric (that I'm remembering, I do need to reread the game), but I was looking for similar types of excuses in quils scum game and I didn't really find any as he attempted to look like scum hunting townie.

So yeah, I'm not sure what to do with that.

This is really the only thing about Quilford's play that is bothering me too (although it is a huge problem). There's not really any proactivity or drive in his play and there's no detail in his reads.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

How much of that do you think was motivated by your role?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Looks like this thread exploded while I was at work -- I skimmed sections of it between jobs at work and threw Empire some of my thoughts in bathroom breaks but I do need to go over all and do a proper read through, won't be tonight, heading out soon and my times going to be eaten up elsewhere so I'll get around to this tomorrow night.

Quilford if you're town stop self-voting and instead

please

answer our questions.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Before I start catching up here: has Nati been caught up in this game? I'd kinda really like to see where she's at now.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Something that just occured to me while reading the latest Gold Saucer vs. sangres stuff: so we know that trees that get mislynched get to stick around forever basically unless they get doused/ignited (a process that takes at least two day phases to do)...my question is how do you guys expect this to inform the scum strategy in this game? I have some theories about it but I'd like to see what all of you think first.

As a hint for what I think: we might be approaching this game the wrong way.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

EBWOP: that should say "two night phases"

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I too am not going to get to this tonight, I'm going out drinking tonight; Got tomorrow off though.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Regfan just got done with a game off-site and told me he wants a day break and I've been out all of today and will be gone all of tomorrow, so this is a prod dodgy type post until Monday/whenever Regfan gets to this.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Im out for the night nad still trying to recover from the offsite gme so i'll get to this tomorrow t work.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Hito, how much of this thread have you read up to now?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Man, Quilford's replace out looks pretty town (and I think Regfan agreed with this but I need to check the logs).

Honestly, the fact that pieguyn is still actually efforting and keeping up that high level of effort despite Yuriko getting wrecked makes me think it might not be her either, despite all the issues I still have with her play.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I still don't get the whole put words into her mouth because I do think that it would be something preplay but it's kinda moot now. Yes, I realize this is kinda worthless, but here you go.

For the record, I said the exact same thing to Regfan when he brought it up to me a while back and that I felt it was just a side effect of bork's careful, thorough approach to the game. But I didn't really care about him posting it in the thread because he's better than me at this game (especially now) and I prioritize his ability to get/strengthen reads over my own.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Also, Tammy, please stop stealing my thoughts (#1490)

I'm caught up but I am still in the position where I don't feel like I have much else to say and it's annoying because I feel the need to do SOMETHING but I don't know what. I'm waiting to see what Soft-spoken has to say in response to pieguyn's case and to see what G+G have when they fully catch up with this game (though hito's posts are a nice start).

Nati, have you and Muffin discussed my slot in the recent past?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Something that just occured to me while reading the latest Gold Saucer vs. sangres stuff: so we know that trees that get mislynched get to stick around forever basically unless they get doused/ignited (a process that takes at least two day phases to do)...my question is how do you guys expect this to inform the scum strategy in this game? I have some theories about it but I'd like to see what all of you think first.

As a hint for what I think: we might be approaching this game the wrong way.

Oh, I just remembered this. The reason why I brought this up is that I was thinking about whether scum would really push strong town slots like mine/sangres/GS, etc. The drawback for scum is that these slots would be confirmed town if they flip and they'd have to deal with their presence for pretty much the rest of the game. Basically, I'm seeing some potentially serious blowback.

On the other hand, there really aren't many mislynch options available for scum so they gotta go after SOMETHING. I did posit to Regfan a while back that scum might be looking to go after us since we're pretty low on people's town totem poles / there seems to be a bit of paranoia on our slot coming from some circles.

tl;dr - I am a bit conflicted in evaluating the last scumbag's mentality when it comes to strategy.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Drake's been in my (and I think Regfan's PoE pool) pretty much most of the game. I agree with a lot of the stuff you said about Drake's play surrounding Yuriko and have pointed out some of the same things to Regfan in the past. There's also some other stuff I've been thinking that I want to keep under wraps until Nati answers my question. BUT, I remember some of the stuff Yuriko saying pointing towards against them being scumbuddies (the reaction to the PGO claim most notably).

The thing is that I am now having the problem where Everyone Is Town.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Going to get dinner ect. sorted then come and catch up on this!

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Going to break this into a few smaller posts.

I do want Pie to explain the turnaround on the Soft read from Post 1251 and Post 1353 to the current vote/case in some more detail specifically what he read as town before to call him "100% town" and "his strongest read" to them being the person he think has fakeabe posts -- if I'm not being clear essentially I want to know why you considered him SUPER town earlier and how those specific posts are now not so town rather than why you think his posts make sense as scum. Also ftr I thought this was worse before than I do now because I thought the S_S push came about after Metal stated a scum-read but had that order wrong.

I did like Pies hesitation on the Quilford lynch and the "Please don't lynch in the next few hours" in Post 1305 matches what he did in TM and in the game I replaced into of his where he was town. I don't agree with Pies reasoning for town reading Quilford in Post 1349 at all, think Scum!Quilford has to be looking for ML's later in the game, with the amount of mutual town-reads the only way he can start doing this is scum-reading some strongly town read players earlier on to push later in the game with a "I was always suspicious of them but you refused to lynch them" type of angle but don't think Pie using this reasoning is a scum-tell at all. I also think the elaboration on his read on us in Post 1400 reads as genuine and I actually do like a lot of his reasoning behind his scum-read on Soft in Post 1418 and Post 1428, think the strongest points are A) Yurikos reads there make sense as distancing from a partner and B) Soft continuously calling it a policy lynch rather than responding to the reasons why I and others had her as scum and C) He's floated through today maintaining an "unsure on" stance on RBD/Me/Quilford which fits scum needing MLs. Probably need another big re-read through Soft because there's a

lot

that I remember going "Yep, he's ridiculously obvious town" when I read it initially. His reads list and reasoning in Post 1469 also very very very much matches where our or at least my head is at same goes for his Post 1514.

P much tldr; is that my scum-read on him is dead, if anything leaning towards his recent analysis and reads being town.

Also;

@ Pie

re; Post 1465 - I don't think Quilford replacing out as scum here is a dick move, it's likely he genuinely doesn't have the time for the game regardless of alignment since it'd mean he wouldn't have time to read and respond to accusations in the detail he'd need to do realistically or fake.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Tammys vote on Nacho in Post 1269 was hilariously wrong when I read it initially and still is now, wanted to give her space to work out she's wrong about him herself, glad that it looks like she has. Her Post 1276 specifically the last paragraph reads very very town as does her Post 1330 -- I can actually understand her Nacho FoS' very much from it, it's wrong but makes plenty of sense for her to believe that; her reaction towards both me/Nacho moves her to the 100% town.

I really like Fferrys Post 1395 a lot of the explanation behind the lines of "We don't scum-read your slot, we just want to be super confident you're town via prodding you" is exactly where my head was at the time and the running through of the conversations with Nacho read very genuine.

Tldr; Both my strongest town-reads.

@ Tammy

re; Post 1470 - I'm not really sure what you want me to say? My issue wasn't with wanting to get a counter-claim but moreso that my initial worry was "It makes sense for scum to get a partner to out as a doc to fish a CC" and Empire did tell me that it'd likely be discussed pre-game and thus not needed in the thread so it wasn't a huge worry about mine, really I just wanted to confirm my read on you guys. Also since that game is over now there was a point during your whole "you don't know how to read me anymore hehehehahah" episode that made me think that didn't add up if you're town and I'm reading you correctly here but at the same point I don't think you'd damage your chances of winning here as scum via doing that and that it instead more likely fit with you having a gut-reaction of making fun of me for hesitating on reading you town there but from memory it's also something that pushed my reaction/troll vote.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I actually read Muffins Post 1430 as town, won't elaborate on it just yet, want to talk with Empire and see if he picks what I'm reading town about it otherwise I'm worried he's just going to agree with me (It's probably the largest issue I've had with this game, I feel like my reads and thoughts are too influential on him).

I don't see Soft making Post 1273 as scum at all especially when he's gaining no attention as is. That said I don't like the "I already knew they were town via the vote placement" section of Post 1282 while voting RBD at all, I want that reasoning explained in detail since it seems contadictory.

I didn't like Quilfords self-vote in Post 1303, could see it as a gambit attempt to get town-read since I don't think "answering questions about reads" are anywhere near as difficult as he's making it out to be there. Read Quilfords replace out Post 1401 as townish initially but thinking about logically I'm not sure why it is? It's probably more null than anything. Metals "Quil was ObvTown I had a lesson on how to read him" in Post 1421 made both of us puke a little but I can't see him replacing in and pushing that stance if he didn't really buy it as either alignment. I don't like the "All catch up thoughts are withheld" in Post 1483 seems like a very un-like Metal type post to make but Hitos take on it in Post 1495 reads town though I disagree with lots of his case on RBD

Tldr; Still lean town on RBD but it's a weak read and know that Empires leaning the other way so want to talk to him about it, waiting for more Hito/Metal posts to get a better read on that slot but not sold on Quilfords replace out post being a town-tell anymore and I really need another reread of Soft.

@ Metal

- Run me through your Sangres and Pie town reads -- want to hear your reasoning and thought process behind both of them.

@ Soft -

I want your read on us elaborated on, I also want you to explain your reasoning behind having TammyBork as town in Post 1282 and how it doesn't contradict you suspecting and voting RBD.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

It's not unneeded and certainly shouldn't be 'unnatural' to type, it'll give me more to get a read on you based on and if you're town it may help strengthen my read on Pie which is something you should want on both accounts. I highly doubt your town-read on him and Nacho is based

exactly

on what others have said and doubt that you give the same strength to each tell that others have. I don't need a wall or anything, just give me a flat out paragraph summary on the both of them as to what reads town to

you

and

why

, if you're as confident as you're claiming on both it should be easy to rattle off.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

regfan you of all people should know that I shit up Mina's game, right? why would you puke when I posted 1421? Really?

Because we were the team that we attempting to pull you out of your Quilford tunnel via the meta-information and we (well I, I can't speak for Empire here) don't think meta is a big indicator that Quilford is town, I find his play here very different to his TM play (He was far less forthcoming his with his reads and reasoning here and much less proactive and questioning people and getting reads to begin with), willing to concede that some of it may be due to him being busy in real life but you coming in with the stance of "I know how to read him now, he's obvtown" when that's not even close to our read on him is ugly but I don't think it's a scum-tell coming from you and it's not something I particular think is worth focusing or discussing to much.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Read me. Or ask me stuff to get a read on me. I want to obvtown this slot up to get it out of the mislynch pool. Like I had to do in that game. Then hope my guess for the scum isn't wrong @_@

There's not much point in me asking you any further questions (Only wanted your two claimed stances explained) if you've yet to read through the rest of the game, at this point think it's much better if you get through the rest of the game, share your reads and thoughts and then we can talk. If you want specific things to look at

while

reading through I'd like to you to focus on what you make of S_S since he's someone I'll be re-reading tomorrow morning too, also wouldn't mind your read on our hydra in more depth and your take on us v pie after reading the entire game.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Ok so I'm bored and don't feel like waiting for Nati to answer.

The reason I asked her that question is because I've been in enough town hydras and have played with enough hydras in general to know one major thing: when you're in a hydra as town, it is impossible for the two players to 100% agree on everything (yes, even in this hydra I'm in right now). Usually, in a town hydra, there is some sort of effort that the two players make to try and reach a consensus or to otherwise hash out their disagreements behind the scenes. Somehow, probably due to a drive towards complete transparency, that effort makes it into the thread. It can take on many forms, but usually, it's pretty easy to tell when that is going on (a good example of this is when Tammy and I were hydra'ing in Black Flag Nightless and we disagreed on JesseSheffield's alignment and she just kinda laid out our disagreement in the thread and our effort to try and resolve it).

Scum hydras, I think, implicitly know that they're supposed to not 100% agree on everything and they try to make it known that the two heads disagree on stuff. However, there's no behind-the-scenes effort, no drive to resolve the conflict. The reads and the dissonance exist but it's bare bones and it just feels like it's there just to be there.

This is one of my biggest concerns with the Drake hydra right now. They seem to be in total conflict on my slot for most of the game and I don't get the impression that any sort of effort has been made to try and hash it out. I don't know if this is because of IRL stuff or what but I mean, I'm hydra'ing with a guy who literally has almost the opposite time zone that I do and I'm fairly busy and we

still

find some sort of way to try and discuss the game and reach consensus.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@Pie

re; Post 1546 Fair, can understand the turn-around on Soft a lot better now. I do think Scum!Quil would care almost as much as Town!Quil about not being able to respond to posts whatsoever; if he was really completely time-poor he'd have thought him remaining the game would be disrespectful to the amount of effort everyone is putting in which isn't something that's alignment related -- I don't think it's a "shitty" thing to replace out for as scum at all. Empire apparently disagrees but hasn't responded to my question on what specifically about the replace out reads town to him so interested in hearing his take too. As for Softs Post 1547 it reminds me of This TSO post in TM, it's something I think is more likely to be a genuine thought coming from town who don't care about possible blow backs from it or someone using it against him later in the game rather than scum being ballsy, that said I really do need him to explain Post 1282.

@Tammy

- Makes sense. I'm tabling time after state of origin tonight to go over Soft and probably RBD again, would like your thoughts on the both. I feeling more and more wrong about Pie with every post of his now, p sure he's town here which means that I need to strengthen my reads inside the Soft/RBD/Metal trio.

@Molla -

Pie has already elaborated on his scum read on Soft. Please read the game dude.

@Metal -

If you want to be read as town catch up on the god damn game as fast as possible and throw your reads, thoughts and reasoning in here, the constant "believe in nocaps, we're town" in Post 1561 in Post 1557 or "what do you need to read me as town in Post 1538 does absolutely nothing for me, if you're town show it via scumhunting genuinely, don't attempt to force it.

Really need to actually speak with Empire too, don't feel like we're on the same wavelength at the moment other than him agreeing on Pie probably being town.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@ Molla -

I'd recommend reading Pies Post 1418 and Post 1428 as well as my Post 1526.

@Metal -

I don't care if it's rude or not it's the truth, if you're busy or unable to read properly due to being on a phone that's fine and entirely understandable I don't expect you to read the 60 pages in a few hours but don't in the meantime attempt to pop in and solely use AtE type methods to get town-read (Which "trust me due to no caps!" essentially is), it's pathetic regardless of which alignment you actually are here and is doing nothing for me at all.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Home, going to get something in the oven for dinner then I'll get to this.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I don't find the "Muffin set up a linkage from Yuriko-Muffin and hasn't come back to it therefore he's town" argument convincing at all, if he's scum he can always circle back to it later when there's more of a chance to ML Nacho and it's very possible for him to consider them as actual partners as town (It's a theory we considered at one point too). All up I think it's a fairly worthless discussion and argument that needs to end.

Essentially in the same boat as Gold re; Post 1593, we're waiting on seeing more content from the pool of players we're not sure on [MetalHito/MuffinNati/Soft] and until they pop in here and are fully caught up / posting content it's incredibly difficult to actually place a vote.

Pies spot on in Post 1601 that it is fakeable, especially coming from Brakes (Soft) a player who liked to use unconventional tactics as scum to get town-read, what read super town about it here was that it flowed very naturally and looked less pre-planned as well as his reaction afterwards looking town.

@Metal

re; Post 1577 1) Pies case on S_S is not a case of "Fakeake = scum", the points I suggest you read into and comment on more (And no your Post 1581 doesn't touch on it enough) is a) Soft ignoring the reasoning behind scum-reading Yuriko despite me specifically explaining it directing the reasoning to him with him not commenting on it at all, b) Yurikos last few posts and reads looking like forcing herself to interact with Soft and c) The fact that Softs play today consists of leaving lots of options open while providing little to no content. 2) I agree that scum would or at least should have felt inclined to buss Yuriko at some point and that going after her to begin with makes sense as scum, I disagree that the fact that Muffin did so makes him scum alone, I think it's entirely plausible for him to have that read as town -- heck we had the read ourselves at the same time too so really you're going to have to give me more.

Like Hitos Post 1604 specifically the conversation / elaboration on the S_S town-read, reads very genuine, leaning more town on that slot now.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm going to get dinner then I'll try catching up on the 20 or so pages I'm still behind with the time I have tonight.

I'll prob do some final thoughts write-up or something with a bit more detail

before making a replacement request

@Muffin -

What happened to the bolded? Really need at least

something

from you here, if you're too busy to catch up on the whole game just your elaborated read on Soft and your read on The MetalHito slot would suffice.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@Metal;

RE: A) I don't believe in "Too scummy to be scum" arguments like yours in Post 1621, sure he may have known she'd be lynched at some point in the game and sure bussing her

should

of been what scum did or at least what I'd have done as scum but I don't think it's impossible for them to have thought not doing so would lead towards them being town-read postflip while also having the scum motivation of keeping a partner alive longer, seriously go back and look how much he actually avoided/ignored reasoning for her being scum. B) I'll go re-read this myself more later and we can discuss it then and C) I'd seriously stress reading S_S's play today, he fits scum coasting based of a town-read while leaving lots of options open for late game lynches more than Muffin does.

And don't get me wrong, I don't have a strong town-read on Muffin, I lean slightly town based on a few posts of his but it's all based on p shitty reasoning and Empire certainly doesn't agree with me there. It's more a case of a) I think you're hand-waving a lot of the reasons for S_S being scum away without reading in them properly and b) I think your strength in your Muffin scum-read is far too strong and your basis behind it (or at least elaborated on so far) unconvincing making me want to see

more

about the read in the thread from you guys.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Fair, I'll wait for you get through today to discuss Soft.

And I did respond to your Post 1622, bottom paragraph of my Post 1623, I do have some issues with RBDs play the largest being that I've yet to see a post from him that's read

super

town, I can understand a lot of his reads and thoughts (ie. re; pie) but none of it has been enough to move him to my ubertown read section and there's really been a lack of scumhunting and content from him and I can see that making sense coming from him as scum giving up on the game but at the moment I'm really in a waiting position of trying to get a solid read inside you/him/soft and I think the case/arguments against Soft makes more sense than the RBD one, Empire disagrees and I have no work this weekend so I'll be online when he is then to discuss it more then.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@Pie -

Want to hear your town-read on RBD elaborated on (Your Post 1649 is mainly what you disagree re; the case on them but I want to hear why you lean town on them as promised in Post 1650) because they're only a super super weak town read of mine with PoE pointing towards them very plausible being scum here and Empire leans on them being scum and given how the days playing out we're p comfortable with them being lynched at this stage.

@Sangres, I imagine the above post is a ffyer one, am I right?

I do like Softs reasoning for town reading Pie in Post 1655.

every single one of you had S-S as "town" or "100% town" until pie posted his case so i'm a bit irritated with GB's pokes. nonetheless, i don't think any player has adequately explained muffina town or anything that shows him scumhunting, engaged in the game, or whatever. in fact, he looks like he's ready to quit

To put it simply I have more concerns with Softs play (re; how he ignored the case on Yuriko, him leaving options open and coasting based on town-reads that he had ect.) then I do with Muffin, at the same time I find a lot of Softs play D1 (The townslip progression hi reaction afterwards ect.) to read more town than anything that Muffins done so while PoE (I've got really really strong town reads on everyone else including your slot now mostly based on Hito posts) does mean that scum is inside the two of them I'm not super confident which it is and I didn't like the way you were handwaving the Soft case without reading it.

this is really strange, because i picked up 1430 and read it as really bad the entirety of the post is useless and doesn't contribute to the gamestate. i wrote in my hydra pt ":uselessposting:". the first paragraph is a prodge excuse, second paragraph is *lol i have no reads everyone maybe town* in a paragraph. 3rd paragraph, also useless what does Empire say about it?

I liked the second paragraph since it matched my "poe says scums in here but I'm not confident in it since they look kinda town" stance since it's where I am/was at the time and the promise of reads/content before potentially replacing out looks good, the fact there was no follow through on that at all however negates that town-tell entirely. Empire didn't read it as town at all ftr.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

there was no case on yuriko. RBD making a half assed attempt at one is the main reason he was in the group of people i was willing to lynch. anyone trying to make a legitimate case on someone who made 1 post either believes they are gods gift to mafia or are entirely full of it in some other manner

I had a scum-read on Yuriko that was based on legit reasoning, not a "policy lynch" - it wasn't based on "one post" but rather a multitude of things she did, I mentioned these points several times, some of them even directed towards you and you never responded.

Anyway hopefully that's game, really don't want to leave for my cruise with this game still running.