Mini 1715 - Z - Game over!

[Thor665]

VOTE: Ciara24

The mod can ask me for clarification if he needs to.

[Thor665]

Would you like me to waste everyone's time pointing out the utter lack of logic there, or would you prefer we skip that and move back to the point where we actually discuss what you think is scummy in this game?
Even if you think I am scummy you ought to be able to do better than that - I'm being a touch obstructionist and cheeky with my answers - at least go with that so your case isn't a waste of time.

[Thor665]

Oh gawds, though I will admit that I will look forward to the mod's ruling on the non "randomness" of that vote.

I am liking Woody for town.

[Thor665]

Talking of 'wasting time', though, how do you generally feel about it?

About what?
Wasting time? I'm against it.

You seem to have got a read on Woody early - I'll admit I like an rvs page or two to get a read on people.

Okay?

Thor665 has violated rule #5. This is a minor rule infraction.

The purpose of my vote is quite clear - I am wagoning someone with a vote already on them.
Naked votes are not the same as random votes - and sometimes it is to a player's advantage and scumhunting use to be able to see who asks them about a vote and who doesn't.
Expect a few more infractions on me as the game progresses if inserting something as asanine as 'he has been scum in other games with me' counts as 'not random' I fail to see the purpose of the rule. How about - 'I voted her because her name starts with a C' that is just as game viable.

[Thor665]

VOTE: nacho

Oh, that does work. Thought I had to spell vote. That works

Just to be clear - you are aware that he already shot your case on him absolutely full of holes by presenting fairly solid proof that he did read the spoilers, yes?

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

How is voting someone based on past gaming experience any worse than wagoning on someone who hadn't posted yet?

One serves a functional scumhunting purpose while the other is reaction testing while presenting bad logic so that the only reaction from either alignment would be 'your logic is very bad'.
Why do you consider them identical?

Please, let us discuss what you found scummy about my play in the game so far.

Never said I found anything you did in the game at the point of my vote scummy - it would be illogical if I had and I suspect you're aware of that and are presenting silly challenges that mean nothing.
Why?

Also, why are you being obstructionist with your answers?

Please quote me doing so and explain the obstructionism and we'll discuss it.
I haven't been - I just [ongoing-ed] and decided not to dwell on it when Bella revealed further lack of logic - but now that you agree with it I'd love to hear why. Feel free to awe me - currently I like the idea of lynching you even more now.

[Thor665]

Oh I'll probably do something stupid but I own up to my mistakes when/if I make any

Your current mistake is not having a vote in play.

Vote Ciara?

[Thor665]

I consider them identical in this scenario because they are both based on out of game factors. You are wagoning Nacho's vote on me, which is based on his ability to read me in previous games, and nothing to do with this particular game.
Voting for someone because they were scum in a previous game is, again, nothing to do with this particular game, therefore they serve the same purpose here.

What?
Why in the universe would you think that i thought Nacho had a read on you worthy of being sheeped at this point in time?
I guess if you in theory thought that...for some reason...then that would be equally (well, in my opinion - vastly moreso) worse than Bella's vote.
but that is not my stated reasoning at all - I said I was wagoning you. Bella could have voted you in Nacho's place and my action would have been the same.

Both are reaction tests - by wagoning, you're testing who reacts to the wagon, who joins you and who has good reasoning for joining the wagon - it;s an open test.
The other is reaction testing a specific person to see if they rise to the bait - 'scum in other games means you must be scum here'.

I will agree they are both reaction tests on some level - though I think i argued a rather salient point to how they are different types.

I was simply attempting to open up the question to you. Would you like to actually discuss what you think is scummy in the game, or was that just directed at Bellaphant?

I am discussing tells in this game - I offered the first proffered read of the game, as a matter of fact. Bella has not. So I don't see why you think this is a valid rebuttal comment.

Again, in 23, you stated that you were being a touch obstructionist with your answers. I simply asked why.
All I saw in your posts was snark - I wouldn't have called it being obstructionist, but I was interested in why you thought that your own play was going that way. Who are you trying to obstruct with your answers?

What part of my previous answer confuses you when I said 'I am not'?
Though I am mildly horrified that you would take my own word for how I'm playing once and not the second time - why is that?

[Thor665]

Your current mistake is not having a vote in play.

Well I have to have a reason to vote somebody and right now I don't have one.

Keep the walls to a Minimum early game please

Skip them if they bug you.

[Thor665]

What do you think of nacho?????

I do not have a valid opinion on him yet - do you?

[Thor665]

Ok. Time to catch up.

-Looks like we have town Nacho. Yay!

Two questions;

1. If you're reading Nacho why didn't you notice that he already commented on Woody's townishness or lack thereof?

2. I would advance a town read to Nacho but was offput by his quick and early semi-buddy of me with the whole 'looks like we're both town, wink, wink' line - how do you interpret that from him differently than I did?

[Thor665]

You town read Bella off 5 posts? Uh OK...

I townread you off two and you didn't call me out - what is the issue?

[Thor665]

What do you think of nacho?????

I do not have a valid opinion on him yet - do you?

Yes

Okay, we can play 20 questions, let me try to phrase this correctly for you;

Please share your opinion of Nacho's alignment along with a few explanatory thoughts.

[Thor665]

I presumed you were sheeping Nacho's read on me, I guess, because that was the only explanation that made sense to me.

That might make sense if he had offered a read on you.
He didn't.
He literally stated that he voted you to let you know he was watching you - what do you think I was "sheeping" there exactly? An agreement that he was watching you? Or letting you know I was watching you?
None of that makes any sense - why are you acting like it does?

Where did I take your word once but not the second time? I don't see that anywhere.

You took my word that I was being obstructionist - but did not take my word for it the second time when I said I wasn't, and instead pressed the empty attack on me.
Why?

[Thor665]

Have you played with scum-Nacho before?

Yes.

[Thor665]

Let's lynch Ciara - her answers feel wonky to me and not like she's trying to assess me, but rather toss some dirt on me. Note that her last post wherein she becomes aware that she is tossing dirt...she doesn't follow it up with other questions to assess me. She just acts like she's been made aware of something and moves on and does nothing else.

The train is leaving the tracks, hop on quick.

[Thor665]

I don't really get the difference here? You are wagoning me but not Nacho's vote on me? Ok...
I presumed you were sheeping Nacho's read on me, I guess, because that was the only explanation that made sense to me

Why didn't you ask for clarification instead of assuming?

Because she isn't scumhunting, but is attacking.

You should sheep me.

[Thor665]

What do you think of nacho?????

I do not have a valid opinion on him yet - do you?

Yes

Okay, we can play 20 questions, let me try to phrase this correctly for you;

Please share your opinion of Nacho's alignment along with a few explanatory thoughts.

It's a valid opinion but not really alignment indicative one.

I really don't like how defensive this post is over woody. I don't know if it means his scum or his just someone who's going to clash heads with me over this game.

So...you *don't* have a valid opinion on him then?
Because saying you don't like a post and then not calling the post scummy or towny is calling it null...which is not an opinion, and makes one wonder the point.


Garmr is a scum read now.

You should sheep me.

I don't trust you, why would I sheep you?

You should actually sheep me since I'm actually voting near confirmed scum. No way town does what karmic did

You should sheep me for yucks, if nothing else.

If your wagon on Karmic gets bigger than my wagon on Ciara then I'll move.
Since that is not currently the case I see little value in wagoning with you, and see a lot of value in you wagoning with me.

So if somebody said you were a good player and you knew you weren't as good as they think you were, you wouldn't correct them? I really find that hard to believe.

Wow, that was exhausting... If woody is town, he will be dead weight. All those words and absolutely nothing productive.

He's done more productive things than you...
Could you describe how his posting is unproductive? I will agree it is spammy - but I really disagree that it qualifies as actual spam, and find a lot of content in his posts.
Did you even read them?

[Thor665]

Oh, also, town lean on Gummy.
Mostly for the buddying

[Thor665]

Two questions;

1. Why do you not trust me?

2. What part of my case on Ciara do you find lacking?

[Thor665]

I lump it.

[Thor665]

I lump it.

Push me for it please I work best under pressure.

I am pushing Ciara - what is your take of my case on her?

1. I don't trust anyone I don't have a town read on, the fact you called me town based on basically nothing still doesn't sit well with me either

Learn how to play town.

2. I think the issue is I am not seeing a case at all. You say her responses were "wonky" which really doesn't say much and that you feel she is attacking/throwing dirt on you but idk if I really see that. I'll have to re-read her posts again.

To go with the 'wonky' and ignore the more specific issues I raised in the same post is frustrating to me.
How do you think her reaction to, let's say, specifically the 'obstructionist' conversation made sense?
She attacked me for something I said I did, when it was clear I never did it. Then ignored when I said I didn't do it and kept pushing. Then I pointed it out a third time and pressed for her reasoning and got a 'ooops!' as a response with no further scumhunting.

If her goal of pushing a BS point was to scumhunt me - okay, i get the push on emptiness, that makes sense to me.
But when the emptiness is pointed out and you drop all communication...then it doesn't look like a push to get a read on me anymore, it looks like a push that she thought was valid.
But why ever think it was valid as *literally* the only evidence that it had happened was me saying it had - which suggests she was not reading for comprehension, but reading for tells to push.

What are your thoughts on the case now?

[Thor665]

To be honest I don't think you really have a credible case.

What case do you currently find more credible and why?
If the answer is "none" why can't I get a sheep from you?

I kinda like Dave for town for having the gumption to psa at the mod. XD

Wonky. Uh, ok. I was made aware of something, but I didn't have any follow up questions, and I didn;t feel like my interactions with you were helping me scumhunt. Therefore, I moved on.

If you had moved to any location other than silence I would buy into this answer a lot more than I currently do.

Oh, also, town lean on Gummy.
Mostly for the buddying

Good legit reason, solid work, go team.

Are you just being sarcastic for no reason, or are you actually going out of your way to try to denigrate a town read with no presented reasoning?

[Thor665]

I'm not sure that I follow how failure to follow up on scumhunting translates as something a more experienced player would do more often than a less experienced one.

[Thor665]

I've heard the argument that explicitly stating why someone's scummy is bad because will tell them how to change if they are scum. I don't really agree with that, because it also is not convincing unless the scumminess is really egregious and most of the time the damage has already been done.

Is that what she's getting at? In that case, it's a playstyle thing.

She has certainly not even remotely claimed that was what she was doing when responding to my case.
Are you reading her mind or just making up things and ignoring what she's saying?

@thor I feel my case is more credible and sheep worthy.

It appears to be a meta read.
I have no issue with that, but I don't understand why it's that much better.

[Thor665]

@Thor My motivation was to try to think through the wagon on Ciara and see it from both sides.

By...making up her thoughts?
Like, she literally stated her reasons. Like them or leave them you don't need to make up an excuse for her - she gave her excuse.

Garmr seems town to me based on him vs davesaz.
I have a lesser town vibe from Ciara too.

I'll concede that Woody is annoying but maybe not scum.

I'm going back to read my own games with dave; he didnt really leave much of an impression on me in those, probably because I tend to get lynched D1.

I'll get bak to you on scum, I think woody is lynch bait
UNVOTE: Woody

[Thor665]

attacks Ciara for assuming that his vote was a sheep on Nacho's, which at that point was a valid assumption to make with lack of evidence to the contrary

How is that a valid assumption - I even got Ciara to admit that it wasn't.
Go back and quote for me what Nacho said prior to my vote that I could, in any sense, be logically sheeping.
I'll wait.

What was your initial reason for voting Ciara?

To create a large wagon.

[Thor665]

Ah, I must have missed the part where Ciara admitted that the assumption was invalid.

Basically have this conversation and replace you with her and that is what it looked like.
But don't worry, I am loving living it a second time.[/sarcasm]

That was the problem. There was no logical reason.

Agreed - so why would it be "logical" for her to presume that's what I was doing?

I don't like this response, but it's not necessarily scummy. This makes it seem like you're just trying to rush a wagon for the sake of a wagon. I don't see how this helps Town at all.

It is exactly what I was doing. I was rushing to get a large wagon.
How does it hurt town?

[Thor665]

I didn't say it hurt town, just that I fail to see how it helps town.

I think wagons help town - but if your reaction to it is that you simply don't understand it - why do you dislike it as an answer?

Also, to expound upon why I think your first post was weird, it sounds an awful lot like "Hey mod, you know why I'm voting *wink wink*." This makes it sound like you had a dialogue before the game, which would only be possible for scum.

And then decided to reference it in thread because I'm a moron?
As opposed to poking at the mod over his, at the time, ruleset about votes and when and how they needed to be explained.
I don't think that makes much sense - why do you?

[Thor665]

@Thor re 215: That's just how I play. I don't have a justification, it's just how I try to understand people.

Okay...

Don't have conversations with me asking me to consider stuff you're making up wholecloth though - it bugs me and I find it meaningless. You can keep those to yourself or others.

Want to vote Ciara now?

[Thor665]

Maybe this is giving Thor too much credit, but I kind of was thinking that Ciara, Woody and Garmr were on the top of his scum list. So vote one, ask the other two how they feel about joining the wagon.

I was the first person to openly state a town read on Woody.
I have not changed my thought on that value call.

Want to vote Ciara now?

No.

Do you townread her, or just wish to avoid creating a larger wagon at this point?

This makes me feel very uneasy because instead of trying to justify your case and why it's right you instead were deflecting it with another question. This means you know it weak (which at the start of any game is understandable) but the fact you continue to push that this is the right place and trying to get people to sheep it makes me concerned and tbh I am getting a little paranoid over that wagon and you.

I have justified my case as much as it is able to be justified at this stage of the game - you didn't like it for reasons that are gut based. That sort of ends that conversation - what other angle of approach was I supposed to go with? Just repetition? Or explaining to you why a gut based read seems weak to me? The former is annoying and the latter won't convince you.

The fact that I'm moving my push to other people makes exactly as much sense as me pushing you to vote her did - so it was either scummy when I did it to you or it isn't scummy that I'm moving on and pushing for other votes after realizing I won't get yours.

Your issue makes no sense to me as explained.

[Thor665]

I'm reading her null right now. I'm not opposed to a wagon on principle.

Since your current vote is an unsupported one on me, and I am absorbing a fair shake of town reads (and some scum ones - but they are scattered, unsure, and not pushing me) I would submit the idea that the wagon on me is, as they say, going nowhere fast.

Conversely - the Ciara one has a fair bit of attention in the thread, has some active detractors, and multiple supporters, and is a great place to mine for info.

So...why not vote it and at least read for reactions, especially as you don't really have a push you're excited enough in to be actively pushing?

[Thor665]

I think what you're doing is a scum driven attempt to get someone you perceive as a threat out of the game.

Yeah...because I have played with Ciara before and/or she's a ball of intimidating town power in this game.

@Thor, who is scum-reading you and why?

Gim, Pita, and Garmr - because I'm pushing for a wagon, and apparently only scum push wagons aggressively.

[Thor665]

Thor could be confident of his reads this early (which seemed a little scummy)

Actually this about sums up the entirety of any case against me in this game as I'm aware of it.

[Thor665]

;/ the same could be said for every scum read presented so far in this game.

Weren't you just complaining to me about how my reads are weak?
Why are you acting like it's a blow-off question now (though, I agree, it *is* a blow-off question) if you thought it was a valid issue to raise against my case on Ciara?

[Thor665]

Thor, you're strawmanning the agruments against you. I'm not voting for you because you're trying to start a wagon. That's inane. I'm voting for you because you're trying to start a wagon with bad reasons. The other wagons I'm fine with.

Oh, I did not understand the case on me.
Foolish of me, really.

What with cases being formed on "gut" and "pushing a wagon too hard" I didn't realize that my case of "not scu hunting - and here are examples" stood out as the worst of the lot.

...in fact, I am not really buying that at all - support this really fake looking claim. I would argue my case is better than or equal to every other case out there at the moment. What makes it "bad" to you?

[Thor665]

;/ the same could be said for every scum read presented so far in this game. What I have noticed through is you haven't really pushed anything and have just stated facts. The closest to a actual push is on thor and even then you were pretty quick to back off and just take little swings at him instead of committing and actually pushing him hard.

It almost seems like you're afraid to get yourself into confrontation because it will draw peoples attention to you.

I asked Thor some questions in an attempt to get a read on him, and he answered them in a satisfactory way. I may not like his reasons, but at least he has explained his reasons. You have yet to explain what about what about Dave's meta makes him look scummy in this game or why Karmic's posts actions have been scummy.

Yes, in Day 1 we don't have much to work with, but you could at least do a better job of explaining your scum reads.

Heck, here you are admitting I have reasons and can explain them while others aren't even doing that much, but I am the one you are voting for "bad" reasons?

My BS meter is clanging.

[Thor665]

Actually that is Gim, my iPad mocks me.

That said, Gim is able to spot that some people haven't even explained wagons, so I am still calling pita on the BS and want his support and evidence shown.

[Thor665]

@thor As of 268 karmic has the most/best reasoning and the only wagon I shall support today do you wish to contest it

What are you asking me if I contest?

1. That the wagon on Karmic has the best/most reasoning? (I think this is objectively a laughable concept, but people often have different opinions about such matters)
2. That it is the only wagon you'll support for the nonce? (I see no point in debating a soft adherence such as that, as it is both changable and, currently, meaningless)

So, no, I don't contest either based, not on acceptance of them as good play, but rather because it seems silly to actually debate either concept.

[Thor665]

Meanwhile, people are saying that this;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct[]=26097

Does not support my stance that the slot is not scumhunting.
For reasons that...well...never seem to actually describe her scumhunting.

[Thor665]

I think it is a wagon.
I do not oppose it, and thus don't wish to dig into the whys and wherefores - but I do not consider it more compelling than the case I have presented, and wish to continue pushing a player who, unlike Karmic, appears to be active while not participating.

[Thor665]

@Nacho - you find Ciara slow to post votes in the past. Would you disagree that she is slow to offer opinions?

[Thor665]

While neither is a really solid case, I lean towards the Karmic wagon because after looking at her ISO Ciara has actually given some opinions of people and has given valid reasons for not being as active in this game. On the other hand, Karmic has been posting consistently and has several people pointing out the flaws in his arguments.

Could you quote the scum hunting from Ciara that you like?

@Garmr - Nacho has just backed my Ciara wagon with meta, albeit meta from apparently only one or two games, whatever he claimed back at day start. Yet you keep acting like there isn't even a remotely valid reason for the wagon.

Why?

[Thor665]

my main argument for Karmic is that some of her arguments and pushes seemed forced and reachy, as if she was looking for things to push people for.

aka RVS?

[Thor665]

Is the Karmic is reaching argument referring to the "Ciara is lurky" statement?
If not, what is it referring to?

That's just the tip of the ice berg ²64 not only did he change his story to produced no town content which is another reach. He accused me of role hunting and trying to tell my scum team

I don't town read him enough to want to actually weigh in on this in his defense, but pointing out derp paranoia from a player doesn't usually make me scum read that player.

[Thor665]

I think she called me town, actually, but I could be remembering wrong.
I don't recall any reason for it either way.

[Thor665]

Hell I'm willing to put my head on the chopping block and say ciara is town because the wagon started on nothing I can see ciaras reasoning when debating Thor.

If you're town this is really weird to me.

She has 11 posts or so, and about half of those are semantic debates with me and the other half are prod dodges.
I can get not scum reading her - but head on the block? What the hell are you talking about?

[Thor665]

I think her wagon only has like 3 votes on it also. So, even if it sprang up from nothing it's not like it's crazy scum filled even if she is town.

[Thor665]

Her "position" though extended to asking me to defend myself from a fake accusation I had made upon myself as a joke and then not having any scumhunting follow up because my reactions weren't helping her scumhunt - while getting a town/scumread on me at some point in there for reasons that apparently weren't about those interactions.

I don't think she even made a sttement that one could agree/disagree with per se' because mostly she was dodging my attack by apologizing to me and not responding - am I daft in my recollections?

[Thor665]

Maybe I need to re-read her, i feel like you're talking crazy.

[Thor665]

And still answer my head on the block question as I do.

[Thor665]

For the record; Ciara's expressed reads;

Woody - scum
Thor - town
Karmic - town
Nacho, Garmr & everyone else - uncertain

It's a bit wonky because she misattributed some quotes.

Also, on re-read - I'll really second my question about which of her points you agree with Garmr. Basically I second all of my questions on this page to you

[Thor665]

I don't see her as dodging your attacks I see her as misreading what you said and going along with that then reliazing and apologizing for the mistake I have done this as town before

She misread a couple things - and then offered reasoning off of that stuff, and nothing else really.
It just really struck me as someone both who wasn't really scumhunting (skimming leads to more "misreadings" and I do think scum skim) and the apology also reads to me as "oh crud, I gakked up, abort attack!" which, I think, is strongly supported by her then doing spit all afterwards. Like, she did an attack on me based off two "misreads" and nothing else...smoke = fire methinks.

I'll agree that I am taking the negative view of her actions and you're taking the prosaic view, and I can even understand you taking said prosaic view, even if just to be contrary. Where you lose me though is that you take such a prosaic view of an iso that says basically nothing, based off "misreads" or no presented evidence, say you like the reasoning and then town read it so strongly as to go "head on the block!" which...dear lord man, why? Seriously - why? That is an empty and iffy iso that you could maybe read as non-invested town, but to reaad it as town so strongly as to leap to the defense? That is screwy - it is so screwy to me that I almost want to call her town and lynch you on presumption of WKing scum, so please, with a cherry on top, expand on this read you're offering - because it makes no sense to me.

[Thor665]

Do it Thor

So are you saying you cannot back up your statements that I'm questioning?
Or is this an intentional attempt to dodge having to do so?
If you can't back them up please just state so clearly - that would be swell.

First, I actually said that the reasons for the Karmic wagon are not great either, but they are better than the reasons for the Ciara wagon.

Could you expand on that thought then?
Because I basically 100% summarized her thoughts, and it was a few vague non-supported reads, that didn't really seem to connect to her play.

the flawed arguments could be coming from town, but I think it becomes less and less likely the more flawed arguments he throws out.

Can you describe the most flawed argument Karmic has offered in your opinion?

It's a Smurfing wagon with absolutely no grounds to vote anyone and I feel like strangling the town on it because all of them can't be scum.

It's a Day 1 wagon on a player that *isn't* scumhunting and the raised case is "not scumhunting". You can argue that there is no scumhunting due to lurking - but that in and of itself is a valid case for Day 1.

Meanwhile your favored wagon is a wagon based on "flawed arguments and not using valid tells" which, as far as I can grok, equates to either a case of 'not scumhunting' or 'scumhunting so poorly he must be scum'. So, in my mind both cases are actually about the same core case, one is just pointing to absence of effort and the other is pointing to presence of weak effort.

So, I don't actually have an issue with the case on Karmic, I *am* bewildered that you find the one so pure and the other so anathmic though - it's not reading clear to me. If you're town you have strange blinders on. if you're scum you're selling me a load of hogwash and/or have blinders on due to your awareness of the gamestate.

I feel I am trying to talk to you very honestly and openly about how the game is played and the value of the wagons and feel you are handing me scripted lines - could you try to up the open honesty in your next reply to me? I would be appreciative.

[Thor665]

it's not a solid case, but I think it's better than the case on Ciara.

Could you describe why the Ciara case is so weak to you?
People keep saying this, but I actually see no rational to support it that makes sense.
There is no supporting evidence that Ciara is actually scumhunting outside of two pushes she made off misunderstandings/misreads/lies. That, in and of itself, is a decent ground for a case.
Since then she has lurked - now, you can buy the case as legit lurking, but even if you do it doesn't exactly paint her as town, nor support a town case on her.

So what makes the case weak? Or, at least, weaaker than a case of "this guy is not lying, but is using weak tells that are not scummy" which is what's left of the Karmic case if you don't think there was a lie. I find that to be a valid case, but I don't find it a particulalrly strong case, and certainly not stronger than the Ciara case. As I said to Garmr, I actually think both cases are very similar, except only people supporting Karmic are claiming one case is unsupported - which is weird, and I want people to back that up.

Can you?

[Thor665]

I'm finding both cases to be relatively ok for D1 and what is bothering me the most is the vehemence against the wagons on both sides.

Besides Karmic (who, naturally will dislike the wagon on him) who would you describe as vehement against the Karmic wagon? It seems it would have to be, and only consisting of, Nacho - who is defending the Karmic wagon, but isn't exactly barn nurning in the same way that Garmr or Glim are dogging on the Ciara wagon.

Or am I missing something from the inside looking out?

[Thor665]

@Thor:

1. I have already answered most of your questions already. Please reread my ISO (it's not that long) and come back with more specific questions.

Could you answer this one;

Can you describe the most flawed argument Karmic has offered in your opinion?

You have answered it in a very vague sense wherein you actually didn't describe an argument nor a flaw - I want an argument and a flaw explained, this should be easy to do as that is the case on him in your mind.

2. I never said I townread Ciara, just that the scumcase on her was weaker because the case on her is basically that she hasn't been very active in this game.

That is not the case on her - the case is that she is fake/not scumhunting. How do you feel about that case?
To the best of my awareness no one save Karmic has indicated 'not active' an issue with Ciara, and Karmic has restated his case, claiming that it was not what he really meant when he said it - so, even he is not claiming that is the case at this stage.

That being said, I am not opposed to a Ciara lynch if it means we get some information from it. I just fear that, because she hasn't been very active, we may not get much information if she flips town.

What info would we get from a Karmic town flip that we would not get from a Ciara town flip?

[Thor665]

@thor flawed arguments flawed arguments shove that up your *** my arguments are valid and it's you who has the flawed arguments. If ciara flips town your going to be like oh garmr was wking when in fact I'm just not a idiot.

What are you even responding to here?
Because it isn't to what I am asking.

[Thor665]

this ciara wagon raced awfully fast to L-1 and is giving me weird vibes.

Who do you see as theory scum on her wagon if she is town?

[Thor665]

@Nacho - thoughts on Garmr and the WK thought I had.

Intentionally not unvoting Ciara while asking this.

[Thor665]

Why do I feel like this is a loaded question?

Because you're scum and scared of slipping?

even though I believe the argument of Woody's immediate vote/unvote started as a misunderstanding, Karmic has since been wishy-washy about the whole thing. Karmic stated that it was a misunderstanding in post 93 but then rescinded this statement in post 154 because Woody was making other arguments against him. I feel like this is representative of his whole game so far because it feels like Karmic is just throwing arguments at a wall to see what sticks and rescinding what gets him into trouble.

I'm not sure this answers my question. I will restate your answer, correct me if I'm wrong;

Karmic's most flawed argument is that he was wishy-washy in dealing with Woody's pressing of a case based off a misunderstanding. This is shown because Karmic accepted Woody's answer and then later decided he didn't after 24 hours and more posting by both on the subject - this shows that Karmic uses flawed reasoning because he...changed his mind and announced as such?

Is that right? That's his biggest flawed argument in your mind and/or the best example thereof?

This case can easily be explained by the fact that she hasn't been active lately. I feel like her early posts were genuine and that your comment about being obstructionist was intentionally misleading. Just because she started questioning into that doesn't make her scum.

My comment was only misleading if you, y'know, hadn't read anything I'd posted in the game.
So you think her posts prior to going lurk were showing scumhunting?
I really, really, don't.
I don't even think there's an argument there, like, they are bereft of scumhunting. Literally all she did was poke at me due to me making a misleading comment and then did nothing else and called me a town read, along with Karmic. That comes off as both scumhunting and genuine to you?

Karmic has been much more active than Ciara, so a Karmic flip would gain us more information about the people he has interacted with.

Like what?
If he flipped town all we would know is that he was honest when he was changing his mind and pressing some cases that, I at least, have not been blown away by - it wouldn't actually tell us anything more than that. So whether he posted buckets or posted nothing (like Ciara) I am unsure of the value difference there. In fact, i submit there is no value difference.
Can you offer me one read (just one) that we would gain if Karmic flipped town?
Like, if he was an Innocent Child and declared right now and did nothing else - what info would you then have to draw a new conclusion in this game?

Also, the fact that Ciara still hasn't responded to a prod makes me worried that we may not get a response from her in time, so we should be prepared to switch wagons soon if we're going to get a day 1 lynch.

Why do we need her to respond? Mod will either replace her for flake or we will lynch her sans claim - her flaking/lurking is not actually a valid reason to dismantle a wagon on her.
If it is then I know my new scum strategy
But, you know it isn't.

[Thor665]

Apologies for slacking. I will try to catch up tomorrow evening, or if I can find time, this evening, which is less likely.

Is there a deadline for the day end??

I think it's classified in the same distant future that your participation is.

[Thor665]

Granted, vehement is probably too strong a term. There is opposition, some of which is direct in the form of questioning the wagon(s) and some in the form of pushing the other wagon.

Why would that bother you though - isn't that describing normal competing wagon interaction?

[Thor665]

@Nacho - thoughts on Garmr and the WK thought I had.

Intentionally not unvoting Ciara while asking this.

I don't think it's very likely. I read a little bit into Garmr's games as scum to see if he plays like this as scum (he doesn't); I also don't think that the condescension in the "I'm the only not idiot" in the attitude is faked and don't think it would feature so predominantly if we were trying to lynch a townie as a counterwagon to Garmr!scum trying to lynch a townie.

This makes me sad.

[Thor665]

The case on Karmic is very weak.

It's only "weak" insomuch as it's a Day 1 case.
The issue I have with the case is the disjointed failure to actually talk particularly clearly about the issues with Karmic - individual votes on him are weak.

I am citing the 'G-boys' as the top offenders in this category. Gimlear is basically accusing him of changing his mind, and Garmr is too mighty and powerful to even deign to justify his vote when questioned. Neither reaction is pro-town.

[Thor665]

The case on Karmic is very weak.

It's only "weak" insomuch as it's a Day 1 case.
The issue I have with the case is the disjointed failure to actually talk particularly clearly about the issues with Karmic - individual votes on him are weak.

I am citing the 'G-boys' as the top offenders in this category. Gimlear is basically accusing him of changing his mind, and Garmr is too mighty and powerful to even deign to justify his vote when questioned. Neither reaction is pro-town.

pff my points on him are still valid others have noted that through it's been controversial. I'm actually starting to think your scum.

That's fine - I'm still thinking you haven't defended the case and keep trying to big-dog it every time I ask you to.
For instance, this post, as usual, doesn't actually state the case with specific points, but does so in an incredibly loose way.
Which is weird because you were able to answer me when I asked about Nacho, and though you had to clarify it as a null read you were able to point at something. Maybe you're horrified that your case is so soft that when explaining it you'll need to admit this or something? I don't get it. It is anti-town though, sorry that pointing this out shows my scum colors, I'm usually better at scum than this.

[Thor665]

I don't like this post to say some one is lurky after only a couple of days RL is unjustified and reachy.

As far as I can tell, this is your case.

Am I wrong?
We can 20 question this down - I have nothing better to do.

[Thor665]

VOTE: karmic guide
for reasons previously stated and and a dave wagon doesn't seem to be happening today.

Looking like it...

[Thor665]

I don't like the fact karmic guide was trying to portray ciara as a lurker when it had been like one day at most since ciaras last reply. That seems extremely scummy to me.

I'm really pretty sure this is the case - right?

[Thor665]

Is the Karmic is reaching argument referring to the "Ciara is lurky" statement?
If not, what is it referring to?

That's just the tip of the ice berg ²64 not only did he change his story to produced no town content which is another reach. He accused me of role hunting and trying to tell my scum team

Here's the second half of the case - I am pretty sure that's all of it.

[Thor665]

@Thor, Looking at the wagon, I don't like pistachon for the way he's hopped onto the wagon, going from not wanting to be anyway near a Ciara lynch to slipping on with the reason of not liking the other wagon - without any provocation and doing so rather quietly (and early in the wagon at 4th place). Don't like how he switches his read on you in less than a page for "looking town" and doesn't really specify or mention anything. Does this seem weird to anyone else?

eventi also seems strange to me, I'm not so sure about the rest. Need to read more.

I might have shared your Eventi issues a few pages ago, but his current posting vibes town for me.

You have a good point about Pistach - that was an odd way to hop on the wagon, basically just citing fear of a theory deadline.

[Thor665]

Phase termination interval:

(expired on 2015-09-20 12:22:00)

Ooooh, though I did find the countdown.

I am good with the Ciara lynch or will support a sudden mass blitz on Pistach.
I am around a lot (shock) so will not be the first to move, but if someone does, I will too.
I am tepid on the Karmic push.

[Thor665]

Also it's interesting how a Karmic wagon seems to be slowly building up now

Is it? That wagon has been around for some time, was actually bigger than CIara for a spell, then lost some steam, and is now regaining it. Seems normal to me.

[Thor665]

@Mod - as we are currently at L-1 on an empty lurk slot, could we get a deadline extension? It is fairly obvious that we need to see feedback from the slot that hasn't been around and that is why the game is currently in doldrums, and even by your own words it still has about 1/6th of our remaining time before replacement will even be sought.

[Thor665]

I'd be amendable to flashwagons on all of pistachi0n/Gummy/eventi with a preference for eventi/pistachi0n.

I literally have soft town reads on two of those names.

Have you looked at both of their recent postings? They are immeasurably superior to their earlier stuff.

@Garmr, just skimmed your iso and the only point I see you make is 255 that Karmic called Ciara a lurker.

What did I miss?

........ DON'T SKIM PLEASE AND ACTUALLY READ IT THERE'S MORE.........

...NOTICE THAT I QUOTED STUFF, ASKED IF I WAS WRONG, AND HAVE BEEN REPEATEDLY ASKING YOU TO TAKE UP THE GAUNTLET AND STATE THE CASE OPENLY, SIMPLY, AND IN ONE PLACE, WHAT "MORE" AM I MISSING EXACTLY...

At the point of making the earlier post on which I voted Ciara, I was under the impression the countdown was a surprise. I looked at the rules again afterwards and yes, I felt silly.

With your new timer awareness how do you feel about your current vote?

[Thor665]

I'm getting kinda annoyed with saving things over and over to drill a point in.

Quote one of the repeated sayings of the case that sums it up?
I read your iso and, at best, found one statement and no repetitions - presuming it's the whole case.

[Thor665]

AND I SMURFING HAVE, I WANT TO CHOKE YOU TO DEATH RIGHT NOW. 268 Fucking to 268 my main points I even surmise what I'm saying at the end of it.

If you are serious, you need to replace out of this game immediately and not play Mafia again till you get whatever in your life is upsetting you this much under control.
If you are not serious (and I don't think you are) - I find this to be grandstanding to a comical level.

Backtracking,mudthrowing,reaching,Finding a excuse to jump on the lead wagon there's a plethora of reasons why you are scum.

if you want to know how i came to those conclusion read that post BUT IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT MORE YOUR MISSING IS A BRAIN.

So it *was* what I quoted then?
You were claiming I missed something - I didn't think i had, and this seems to support that stance.

The lead wagon point strikes me as obvious bollocks though - he unvoted from a 3 person wagon to vote a 2 person wagon and make it a 3 person. So clearly either you are remembering things wrong or you are mudslinging on that point.
Also, I agree with Nacho about the backtrack, it was, at worst, a sidestep.
The mudthrowing I guess exists, but...eh, look at how much you're denigrating other people's play, which is also a scumtactic to the same degree as mudslinging - how do you define the difference?

No, it was because I had a feeling you would oversimplify the case... which is exactly what you did.

How did I oversimplify it unfairly?

First, you say your comment wasn't misleading, then say it was misleading... Which is it?

I would say not misleading - the second time I was expressing it from your stance where you believe it was misleading when expressing your read of her.

Second, not everyone has time to read every single post. Some people skim, so when you deliberately set up a trap like that, it's just as likely to catch town as it is to catch scum.

So you agree she was skimming, you just disagree that it was scummy skimming - okay.
I note that the skimming was used to attack, and she missed at least once subsequent to her attack (in a response to her) wherein I pointed out that it was a joke and not true.
So in her skimming she also wasn't reading the replies of the person she was attacking - do you think that also comes from town?

I don't think anything she did was particularly alignment indicative.

Oh, I thought when you said you saw scumhunting and reasoning you thought she was a town read - a null read makes more sense to me.
Still not sure why you dislike the case though.

For one, I would like to see Woody's (who unfortunately has been replaced) and Garmr's reactions, since they are the biggest proponents of Karmic's wagon. Reactions to a town flip can be useful information.

I agree, you would learn stuff from the people pushing the wagon.
Just like if Ciara was lynched - making them equal.

Let me ask you this, though: why are you defending Karmic so much instead of letting Karmic defend himself?

I am asking people to defend their attack against the Ciara wagon - I have openly stated that I am fine with the Karmic wagon. I will agree I am attacking people voting the Karmic wagon, which is a roundabout defense of him. But then I am also attacking people who are voting the Ciara wagon as well - that's just how I play the game. I attack a lot.

In fact, why is Karmic not defending himself? There's still pending accusations from Garmr that he hasn't addressed.

He isn't defending himself because he's lurking.
I don't think there are any pending Garmr questions.

Regardless,

I third the intent to hammer on Ciara.

Guess the wagon wasn't as weak as previously intimated, eh?
I thought you disliked the wagon and the case, no?

Now the question is, do we want to lynch her before she gets replaced or wait for her to get replaced so we can get a claim from the slot?

Is this really a question?

I would also support a speed wagon on Gimlear now. He's not as funny as Garmr in his weird statements anymore.

[Thor665]

I feel bad for whatever poor soul is going to get to replace into your slot for the sake of giving the claim that you should have given right there.

[Thor665]

@Thor I feel better about my vote now than when I voted her because I'm getting the impression she's chickening. She didn't even claim.

Why does that make her more likely scum in your eyes?

1. You are making some good points about the Ciara wagon, which is why I'm willing to lynch her now.

2. At the time, I was assuming she was not going post. But that is why I was asking. I wasn't sure what the protocol is for lynching someone who is in replace range.

3. Now that she has posted and still has not claimed, does that change your answer?

1. I thought I was mostly repeating myself except for the 'more info from a Karmic wagon' thing - was that what sold you?

2. Depends on if you want to hear their claim or not.

3. No.

You also didn't address how I parsed down your Karmic case, I asked if I was unfair in that parsing - your thoughts?

She's been in enough games to know she should have claimed.

Do you think she read anything in the game prior to making that post regardless of her alignment - I don't, but you sound like you're sure she did. Otherwise that wouldn't be a point against her.

[Thor665]

Yeah, she even acknowledged it in her post.

She admitted to be a lurkfail. Not to chickening out. No?

The part that I thought was unfair is that you omitted the part of the case where it was repeated behavior.

Can you show the repetition?
I grok that it happened with the lurking to not scumhunting bit. When was the second (or third or fourth) time he did it?

It would be great if the mod could chime in to let us know if we're going to get a replacement. Otherwise, we need to do something quickly.

We have 24 hours to hear from the mod - I suspect we'll manage.

Her post seems to acknowledge the talk about replacement in your post directly before it. You probably wouldnt have read them in order since you posted the previous one.

She could have posted without reading, but it's hard to believe that she saw the prod message, but didn't have the inclination to check the VC at the top of the page before posting.

I don't think she needed to read my post to be aware of her lurkfail.

Yeah, maybe, but it's equally likely she didn't. I have not been blown away by her insightful reading up to this point regardless of her alignment, and at least with the scumhunting one she looked like she gave a damn as opposed to her limp-wristed replace out without admitting replacing out post here.

[Thor665]

Eh, I'm not sure I believe she noticed that, that said, with a trifecta of hammer intents on her she is either the most needed mislynch in the world, or scum is desperate to try to claim some glory, so I'll admit I'm feeling fairly confident about the idea of the flip. There's almost a frightening surplus of reactions to read about this wagon.

[Thor665]

The two main places where he did this were #84 and #264.

Can you explain how 84 is backtracking? I will admit I just read through it without being hyper careful, but I did it twice and am missing the issue you have there.
I understand your issue with 264 - we've talked about that one, I was looking for at least one in addition to that since your stated issue is the repetition.

wanting to run people up to L-1 (mentioned as L-2) to get claims - isn't this PR hunting? Also the last guy to mention this in my only completed game turned out to be scum. If anyone else is free to (Thor or Nacho, hopefully?), could you do a reread in the light of that info?

I am not a good one to reread in light of that info, because I consider pressing for an L-1(2) claim wagon or three on Day 1 to be pro-town.

I like your pistach vote, actually - but since the mod hasn't shown up in 24 hours (grumble) I am sticking where I am at for the nonce.

I left ciara off my town reads list for a reason because I believe no matter what I do today she's going to be lynched so I am now starting to gather my thought about tomorrow and the people on the list I have presented are pretty much town in my eyes no matter ciaras flip.

I agree, the reads we can get off this wagon and the wagon on Karmic will give us plenty of information for D2. I do think the fact that Ciara knew she was prodded means she must have known she's been away for awhile. She mentioned the possibility of being replaced which means she must of read at least that much from the mod. I doubt she didn't look to see where she was in terms of votes or that a claim was asked for. I doubt she didn't know deadline was coming up. Instead she just posted she's busy and won't be back until after deadline. I really don't like this reaction to her wagon. It would of taken maybe 5 minutes to claim and maybe post something that will be helpful to town if she flips town. But she'd denying us that information. At least say, my reads are the same or something.

I can kind of see that presuming the mod didn't include that info in his prod PM to her.

[Thor665]

-Eventi's 300 looks convenient in moving to scumread Ciara: What made you change your mind? Ciara hasn't posted anything and you go from townreading to scumreading her. If Ciara flips town, this might be scum on the wagon.

Why no issue with how Pistach changed his vote?

-Ciara's 420 should have had a claim in it. We're not getting a replacement as the mod posted a VC. 17 hours until deadline. I think we should hammer.

That is a good point, Mod has expressly accepted a v/la till after day deadline from Ciara even though he didn't state so.
I am underwhelmed on multiple fronts.

[Thor665]

I hate information lynches

I get the feeling we must use different definitions of the term - I love them and the only thing better is an assured scum lynch.

[Thor665]

I just want to have Garmr come in and tell me how stupid the case on Ciara was - though he will, and then will call it luck...all while ignoring that the case on Karmic was an equal level case

In other news - I am still trending Evanti townish. <--- @Nacho

==========================================================
I would also like to point out a strong issue with Nacho's idea about investigatives claiming.
Basically, the short answer of it is - please don't state whether you agree or disagree with the idea in thread.
Just, y'know, keep that quietly to yourself. Because if people start agreeing and not claiming an investigative - you're basically handing scum rolecops.
Don't do that.
==========================================================

As a result, i am offering no opinion on that plan.

I think I'm okay with a Bella vote.
Silver was Wooody, so I'm good with that slot.
Who was the third hammer intent?
To a degree I kind of want to lynch one of the hammer intents - I stand by what I said yesterday about that, that was *weird* and I am pretty willing to bet that there was a sloppy bus attempt hidden in that snarl.

[Thor665]

I think I'd also still be okay with a Pistach lynch.
Kind of him or Gummy feels like a decent spot to find scum also, and currently I have more town vibe from Gummy (which is saying something )

[Thor665]

@Nacho - meta me Garmr's bus/defend habits also - that head on the block thing was wonky and he failed to justify it when directly asked. What's your thought there?

[Thor665]

Who was the third hammer intent?
To a degree I kind of want to lynch one of the hammer intents - I stand by what I said yesterday about that, that was *weird* and I am pretty willing to bet that there was a sloppy bus attempt hidden in that snarl.

I'll come right out and say that if I were going to bus, I wouldn't mess it up that badly. If you're going to look for a late bus look elsewhere.
My thoughts on the bussing angle is that it's more likely to be someone in the middle, if anyone bussed..

Are you aware of any other game where there was a wagon on Day 1 that had more than two players offering hammer intent?
I don't think I've ever seen that before, and I've played a lot of games.
Have you seen that before?

I will agree that there is a decent chance of a middle scum bus also - but I see nothing to argue against a late scum bus - do you?

@Nacho - meta me Garmr's bus/defend habits also - that head on the block thing was wonky and he failed to justify it when directly asked. What's your thought there?

I am pretty bus happy anyone can tell you that or you can look yourself

I am too lazy to look, but I'll be happy to let you disagree with Nacho's opinion if he disagrees with you.

My scum reads are Dave and event

Why Eventi?

@thor
You were right I was wrong. If you want my reasons why I town read ciara its because I thought I was right about karma and you were scum trying to push the wagon away from karma and I would of done anything to foil you hell if ciara flipped town I was going to fake cop a scum read on you.

[Thor665]

No, I can't rule out a late bus, I just think in general it's less likely than early. Mostly because it can be so obvious. TBH I did not expect to see others also offer hammer intent, and don't think I have seen that before. I'm used to calling it and using it, not having someone jump in front of me like that.

This feels like a lot of statement of "null" - is that right?

I'm going to guess there's a protective role out there, so I am going to claim: I'm town cop.

I investigated Bella, who is town.

The more exciting aspect to me here is a potential Radja clear, frankly.
Okay, we'll leave Bella alive for the nonce.

Thor665

, KarmicGuide,

Radja

, pistachi0n,

Nachom

amma8,

eve

nti,

SilverWolf

And

Bella

Da

ve
as the rest of the hammer intent squad.

Still kind of favoring Pistach methinks.

what ever you say scum but now it's time for you to get lynched. btw I'm not even the angriest person on this site you haven't meet kuribo yet or you haven't pissed off mollie. Plus I kinda played that up so I could get my way guess it didn't work like it does for kuribo.

Mollie's more of an incessant whine than angry.
Kuribo also explains stuff even while being angry - it's why your method ground to a halt and his generally doesn't. It's not level of anger, it's level of explanation paired with anger.

[Thor665]

No, I can't rule out a late bus, I just think in general it's less likely than early. Mostly because it can be so obvious. TBH I did not expect to see others also offer hammer intent, and don't think I have seen that before. I'm used to calling it and using it, not having someone jump in front of me like that.

This feels like a lot of statement of "null" - is that right?/quote]
Also, thinking about this, a roleblocker would probably be worth at least some light defense/alternate wagon pushing, so I'd tend to expect scum to be on the later end even if they opted to bus - no?

[Thor665]

Eh.

VOTE: Pistachi0n

[Thor665]

You obviously haven't pissed off mollie then. She said this after I keeped saying she was the sk all the time. I wasn't being mean or calling her names or even shouting at her I just generally believed she was sk and pushed it 24/7. Also i accused her of ate.

I have played with Mollie more than I care to, as I rather agree with you about her and AtE - she basically lives in that state, and also prefers to ignore facts. Playing with her is exhausting. Doesn't mean she's overloaded with rageahol though.

Don't understand why you would clear dave, Also eventi. they are both viable scum silver wolf seems town to me through.

Gut and gut.

And I'm not full clearing either - that's why their names are only half crossed out.

Do you have a case for Dave scum that I should pay attention to outside of "overreacting" when I cited the multiple hammer intents as scummy seeming?

[Thor665]

@thor that wasn't my only point. So don't act like it was. Dave pretty much ignored the ciara wagon all day till post 354.

He questions the karma wagon despite having a vote on it earlier and saying that both wagons are OK. Yet doesn't do the same for ciara.

He never gives a reason why he prefers one over the and he spends most the day voting on people who probably won't get lynched.

372 is the closetist to a reasoning and even then its only facts irrelevant to reading ones alignment.

First multiquote on a phone

I can agree that ignoring a wagon could be scummy. But, frankly, so can opposing it - especially when it is a PR.

I am not sure why evidence of him opposing the Karmic wagon but not opposing the Ciara one makes him more likely scum after a Ciara scum flip - can you expand on that thought?

He might be scummy for trying to avoid the wagons, but I thought you also docked him for supporting and questioning the Karmic one. Isn't that a bit of an either/or situation?

You also cited my case on Ciara as lacking real evidence to the point you were planning to fake claim to get me lynched. Are you sure this time that his case is legibly bad, unlike mine wherein it was simply a case you disagreed with as opposed to a scummy case? They are different things.

[Thor665]

The strongest points in his favor I think is how he played in a way that would be pretty counter intuitive if he was scum (most notably Thor push when Karmic was the only real alternative)

His Thor push was in the same territory of time as the Gimlear Thor push which you describe as scummy - can you clarify that dichotomy for me a bit more?

I was thinking more along the line of he may of had knowledge of the wagons and that's why he was questioning one and not the other.

So, because he knew one wagon was on town he was going to question it, potentially weakening it, while ignoring the wagon on his scumbuddy?

Also Thor, he didn't add anything to the convo so there can't be anything that could be wrong not like me you and ciara.

Is this unusual for Dave as a player? If so, you may have snagged my vote. If not I don't see the point.

Bringing up how I was wrong with ciara doesn't mean all my reads ate wrong Thor I was right about Bella being town. You also know I can be right sometimes remember when I lynched aero and Titus when I was a hider and you were scum.

You being right and you being wrong are somewhat loosely associated.
You being wrong about me based off my case being weak and you pushing on Dave for very similar reasons just makes me want to question you a bit on them.
I would honestly expect a bit of questioning of yourself, frankly, even if you didn't extrovert it - so i would think my question would seem rather normal and on point at this stage.

Also - I am pretty sure Pistach is at L-2, and he might be at L-1, he assuredly has at least 4 votes on him at this stage, maybe 5. So - y'know, double check that gak before you get too excited to leap on this wagon. I will hold you accountable. I'm cruel like that.

@Pistach - in that light, I will note that you might want to consider claiming, or at least offering a really sexy reads post at this stage.

[Thor665]

3. I'm a town rolecop and I rolecopped Silver Wolf and he's also a rolecop

VOTE: SilverWolf

[Thor665]

@thor: there's 4 votes on pistach, you, gimlear, silverwolf and me. With 12 it should be 7 to lynch, so it's L-3 I believe.

Who do you think is scum - Silver or Pistach?

Because I am having a scumgasm attack, and am sad you're not sharing in my glee.

[Thor665]

I'm a town rolecop and I rolecopped Silver Wolf

Also, a follow up question for you - why target Silver Wolf?

[Thor665]

I'm a town rolecop and I rolecopped Silver Wolf

Also, a follow up question for you - why target Silver Wolf?

I was unsure of how to interpret Woody's actions yesterday.

So basically he was like a really strong null read that you doubted an ability to read ever?

[Thor665]

We could lynch outside pistach/Silverwolf and I can cop Silverwolf to see if he's not lying?

That would be a waste of a cop ability when Silver's lynch would clear me and my lynch would implicate Silver.

Seconded.

[Thor665]

even if Silver flips mafia role cop, you could still be scum because mafia know each other's roles.

What percentage chance would you attribute to this being likely?

[Thor665]

That being said, how common is it to have multiples of the same town PR in a game? I'm going based on the assumption that there would only be at most 1 town role cop and 1 mafia role cop.

Uncommon.
I've seen it happen, but is assuredly not the norm.

[Thor665]

If we choose from Pista & Silver we're choosing one scum from two players

Who do you currently favor as the lynch there?

[Thor665]

Egads.

[Thor665]

does it make sense to have a town cop and a town rolecop even?

I was going to call this a good thing to bring up - kind of vaguely moot now though.

Really? I'm a town rolecop. Pista is lying and scum. No, there's no way there are two town rolecops and no way that two scum would pull a play like this. It makes no sense.

Well, clearly you also just confirmed he *is* a rolecop, so there's that.
I have to admit, in cross claims, I usually tend to favor the first one, even though I've liked your play more than his.

Clearly she was attracting votes, being scumread by several, and was being asked to claim and give reads. She has a result on me, so of course she's going to out it. If she's going down anyway, why not bring down a town PR with you? There's nothing townie about that. It's scum 101 and what any scum in that situation would do.

I agree - it is decent scum play.

Interestingly, Silverwolf's #7246951 has some element of towniness to it, in her motivation for claiming. Scum Silverwolf could easily lie and claim VT or something, and pistach will probably be lynched. Radja, Bella, Thor, do you all think this is possible?

I can see that argument - it just hinges on the scum rolecop happening to target the towncop, but I could see that argument.

I don't think I've ever seen a scumteam in a Mini Normal that has three power roles

I'm sure I have.

My initial thought was that there probably wasn't a protective role as a result, but no kill night 1 so ???.

Just tossing smokescreen here...Doc?

I can talk more about why I wanted cop to claim if it's unnecessary but it's still optimal move after D1 roleblocker lynch and N1 no kill. Interested in hearing Silver's result.

It really wasn't without inside info, in my opinion.

I have been so wrong this game

Are you covering for something?

Shame?

I'm a doctor, I protected Thor last night

There are a Smurfton of PRs already on the board, I'm pretty confident that Silverwolf is scum #2 based on how things fell through and feel like breaking this game out in the open is probably the best way to play this.

I agree at this stage - we should get a Dave target claim.

UNVOTE:

[Thor665]

Pistach investigates Bella so she's fully confirmed
I protect Dave
Radja investigates next in line
Dave jailkeeps someone different

This seems dumb - Radja is high and dry.
Explain?

[Thor665]

I am fine with that.

After Nacho states his thoughts though, I would like the result.

[Thor665]

Nacho 's plan is horrible, why would I need to be double confirmed?? Surely the jk can be used more usefully, and we protect the doc?

Depends on the type of JKer, really.

I'm sure I have.

Let me clarify that: three scum power roles. If you have, could you link it? I think it would be useful

Let me clarify - yes, three scum PRs.
I'm not going to go dig through games for the link - you can feel free to do so if you wish, I don't mentally connect info like that to game names, because it is uninteresting to me.

It was my thought at the time that any player confirmed by Dave was 100% confirmed since I would assume the last role would be a godfather; mafia ascetic is the only other role that could give false confirmations (we can assume it's not a strongman since no kill N1) and that doesn't seem as likely to me when the Mafia Roleblocker can already do that.

Maybe - though except in the specific instance of a GF - the cop is more useful by far, yeah?

My guess is Bellaphant; your opening at the beginning of the day made it seem like you were pretty excited to catch scum and if you're JK I couldn't really see you targeting anyone else.

Interesting, especially since we got a result on Bella - you're presuming a Jailkeeper in the specific wiki sense and not the JKer that is sometimes called the alien, which I see more often here at Mafiascum?

[Thor665]

Usually on this board they just call Alien 'Jailkeeper' all it means is that you can't target the jailkept person, whereas non-alien varients *can* have the jailkept person targeted.
You're presuming the newbie-esque jailkeeper, where target can still be the target of other abilities, and it's just sort of like a focused roleblock, yes?

[Thor665]

I will admit that I'd like to hear Dave's target now - also a clarification of whether his jailkeep is the 'doc+roleblock' jailkeep or the 'turning target into a hider' jailkeep.

[Thor665]

Target into a commuter, not hider.
I'm awake.
Really.

[Thor665]

Do you think everyone else is telling the truth?

[Thor665]

Okay.

@Nacho - if we tag scum today do you agree to protect Dave above all others?
Since, at that point, he's better than a rolecop even for GF finding.

[Thor665]

A discussion of optimal strategy based around his roleclaim and actions.

[Thor665]

The info was his role, the wasn't was the investigative claim request.

[Thor665]

One thing I don't quite understand: how did nacho know that Bella was targeted by the JK? I get that Nacho targeted Bella as doc, but how did he know she was also targeted by JK?

Nacho did not target Bella.
Also, it is a reasonable presumption based off Dave's entrance to this game day if you weren't thinking that he was the commuter-type JKer, which I did, which is why I was confused that Nacho thought he knew the target. But it's a quite reasonable deduction presuming the newbie-type JKer. Go read Dave's iso.

[Thor665]

But saying "I know exactly who" is still suspiciously confident.

Have you ever played with Nacho before - he claims meta awarness of loads of people, if that's not balls crazy confidence I don't know what is.

I rekon the set up is

pist-rolecop
rad-cop
dave-jailkeeper

nacho-liar

A rolecop,cop,jailkeeper,doctor is just to Smurfing power of a set up even with a godfather. But a jailkeeper,cop,rolecop makes much more sense.

So you are saying Silver/Nacho obv. scum then?

Okay, that's a potential fear and theory. I do agree with you that we have there three fairly potent town roles and an additional solid town role.

Let's see though - if your theory is correct - that means scum decided to shoot Bella.
Does that seem likely after yesterday?

Scum shooting me seems fairly likely to me. (though I am full of myself, so if you want to argue against this - proceed)
Scum being Bella seems possible.
Scum shooting him seems unlikely. (Bella - feel free to argue against this)

Silverwolf's rolecop claim on Dave is painfully obv. - there is no doubt in my mind that Dave is a jailkeeper.
Nacho's claim seems...odd, but works within the concept of the dayplay I saw. It seems like an unlikely scum gambit to go with when there are that many other claimed PRs though. (Garmr - if you can describe Nacho's theory way of winning in your mind - that would be swell).
Odds assuredly favor both Silver and Pistach not being both town.
Radja's claim also seems unlikely to come from scum, I'll admit.

Smart money play seems to be lynch one of the rolecops.
If we get a scum flip - JKer gets the Doc protection.
Cop investigates someone.
Rolecop checks Bella (or someone?).
Jailkeeper jails someone (Bella?).

Eh, probably just makes sense to jail someone else and rolecop Bella. That way scum have to kill an investigative or Nacho - and with a kill whomever the jailkeeper is on is basically confirmed town. So, no matter what, we walk out of that day with two additional confirmed town.

If we lynch a town rolecop what would be the best play?

Jailkeeper jails someone.
Doc on Cop.
Cop on someone.

That seems to make the most sense.

I think a big question becomes the chance of scum shooting Bella vs. Thor. Scum either shot one of us, or Bella is scum (or, maybe, paranoia theory - Nacho is fakeclaim Doc from scum faction who no killed for hijinks to out PRs...wear your aluminum hats as needed).

I'm mildly torn on the rolecop question.
Pistach, functionally, claimed under pressure.
There is almost no doubt that they are both rolecops though - so already the setup is a little screwy and we know it.
@Mod -

[Thor665]

@Rolecops - could you each clarify what result you get from goons and VTs? Thanks!

[Thor665]

@Rolecops - could you each clarify what result you get from goons and VTs? Thanks!

@Silverwolf
@Pistachi0n

Just to be clear.

[Thor665]

Hurm - does anyone else besides me favor the possibility of lynching Pistach as opposed to Silverwolf?

[Thor665]

You guys weighing in any thoughts on the NK action would be nice too - I currently favor me as the target, but that also suggests Nacho basically conf. town - so your thoughts on Bella as target(er) are important.

[Thor665]

Because if I was targeted for a kill and, as is apparent, didn't die - what saved me if not Nacho the doc?

[Thor665]

For the record - the only answer is - Bella the Godfather.

[Thor665]

Or, I guess, 'no kill submission' - but that seems unlikely.

[Thor665]

You were the only person jailed - so, I already accounted for that, but I presume you don't think that's what happened.

[Thor665]

But that doesn't make sense if a jail keeper jails someone that person can't be targeted which means raj and peace conflicts

Nacho and I had an entire conversation about this already *AND* I asked Dave to clarify what type of jailkeeper he was.
Why the hell are you not reading anything?

[Thor665]

Interesting, especially since we got a result on Bella - you're presuming a Jailkeeper in the specific wiki sense and not the JKer that is sometimes called the alien, which I see more often here at Mafiascum?

@Garmr - here; start at this post and keep reading till you get to the point you skipped ahead to.

[Thor665]

I'm also slightly concerned about the fact that both Silver and Pista are willing to get lynched today, ostensibly to out/clear the other. This seems to suggest either they're both town role cops or they're playing a very risky scum gambit.

Or that they're just saying what you're obligated to say in that situation.
But on the presumption that they're both town - who do you think we should lynch?

[Thor665]

If they're both town, I think that makes Nacho's claim a bit more suspicious. 2 town role cops, a regular cop, and a JK already seems very powerful, then add in a doctor and that seems too good.

Agreed - logically though, wouldn't the triple investigatives be more suspect than the doc - making the cop the more questionable role?

[Thor665]

Zakk is posting elsewhere and not here - pretty sure he's scum.

Gim and Karmic seem to be the only ones not interested in lynching Silver.

Vote: Silver

My prior night action presentation remains my top thoughts on optimal night action.
I will presume lackadaisical silence from the PRs as general acceptance of my thoughts.

[Thor665]

VOTE: SilverWolf

Gawds I hate that rule.

[Thor665]

Ooooh, edgy.

[Thor665]

Am confused, to say the least.

My presumption is that, since he bothered to answer the question, he'll be town.
Obnoxious, really.

[Thor665]

This is amazing and weird.

[Thor665]

Okay, let's get the claims on the table.

[Thor665]

So, it kind of looks like we're crushing the mafia right now, but we need to play to our outs here. What do we lose to?

Are we entertaining the idea that there might be two mafia factions?

I'm not - are you?

Feeling okay with the Evanti clear.

Scum is either playing the no kill game or is who was jailed. Let's hear who it was now that the others have claimed.

The likely scum list appears to be down to;
Whoever Dave jailed,
Bella,
One of the other claimed PRs.

@Pistach - you would get the same result on a God Father as a Goon or a VT, yes or no? (Please ask the mod if unsure)

[Thor665]

1. Nachomamma8
2. Ciara24 - Mafia Roleblocker - Lynched D1
3. Gimlear Fro99er
4. gummmybear
5. KarmicGuide
6. Bellaphant
7. Garmr
8. Radja
9. eventi
10. Thor665
11. SilverWolf WoodyWoodpecker - Mafia Rolecop - Lynched D2
12. pistachi0n
13. davesaz

Nacho - talk to me, I am a little out of it tonight. What names here can we consider confirmed? I am thinking it's still no one, only a bunch of conditional clears, yeah?

[Thor665]

@Thor: According to the wiki, Godfather would always appear as Godfather to a role cop and town to a cop. So, Bella is cleared at this point.

@Pista: The reason we're confused is because you said to lynch the JK tomorrow. Why?

@Gim - pay attention to what Pistachio says his role provides before quoting me from the Wiki, the question is relevant.

[Thor665]

Have we heard from everyone?

We have heard from the cop, the rolecop, and the doc - so, as far as roles claimed yesterday; you're the only one not with a claim on the table.

[Thor665]

I would personally tend to advocate;

Jail Karmic (who, I agree, looked a touch scummy today and tail end of yesterday)
Cop/Rolecop in the Gim/Gummy/Garmr pool (perhaps even specifically calling them out - not sure.)
Doc Jailkeeper.

If we have another no kill day then we can lynch Karmic and cop/rolecop the last of the G's plus, I dunno, me or Nacho or something.
If scum is no killing they'll have to debate sitting and letting us basically investigate everyone else.
If they're not no killing they're Karmic and are busted at this stage.

Anyone see any holes or improvements to that plan?

[Thor665]

Bella *should* be clear once that question comes through; detecting active abilities only is not quite rolecop and I'm not really sure the NRG would let zakk get away with a strange modification like that and still call it a rolecop.

I agree, the Bella situation is basically connected to what Pistach says the mod answers.

You are clear unless scum shot Bella N1, which seems highly unlikely to me.

Yeah, but clearing me doesn't help me

Radja is clear unless he/Silverwolf coordinated the claim based on the jailkeeper result, which seems highly unlikely to me.

Radja assuredly seems unlikely to be scum barring a really derp gambit.

Dave is clear unless he decided to no kill last night for absolutely no reason; he also has the Silverwolf scenario supporting him, so yeah, probably most definitely town.

I agree, he seems the least likely scum of the PRs to me - it's why I am keeping you on him like glue But, yeah, he may be as close as we have to assured town at this stage barring an even derpier gambit than the theory Radjascum one.

Pistach is clear unless she decided to bus her partner with the rolecop fake claim thing after her partner received a jailkeeper result; this seems pretty ridiculously unlikely.

Yeaah, though I will admit a rolecop and an 'active power investigator' seems a little wonky to me. It doesn't to you? Of course I guess Silver could have been lying about how his power worked, but I don't really see a reason to do that, and at the same time don't see a reason to have the two powers work differently with the same role name - I would actually even go so far as to call that shades of bastard mod, no?

I am clear unless scum shot Bella N1; I also cannot win in this position since I can't kill dave as scum without it being a scum claim.

I agree that if you are scum you cannot win barring a lot of town derp play.
I'm just a paranoid bastich and tend to proscribe to you (and others) the types of shenanigans I'd do as scum - it's not healthy.
I will agree you seem unlikely.

Eventi is clear unless Godfather, which isn't extremely unlikely.

Scum do feel light if all the claimed PRs are, indeed, town.

[Thor665]

Assuming Karmic lynch today (which is optimal, I guess I can get into that if it's really needed)

I would argue it is not, and it's for the simple reason that JKer checks for both scum types with one pop. So as long as the JKer is scum or town, we know his target is 100% clear if there is a kill.

If there is never a kill then we can rolecop/cop everyone both ways till we do know who is scum. = 100% town win.
If there are kills then, by definition, the only way to get to mylo will have the JKer there with nothing but people he has jailed and confirmed as town now that we have 2 living jailed subjects, this is inevitable. = 100% win if JKer is lying scum.
If there is non-JKer scum, then as long as you keep protecting the JKer he can cause two additional JKept subjects prior to his death. 4 JKept players prior to his death.
If we have our RC and cop double check each other's targets (copping the RC target and vice versa) and then double checking a single target on the night the JKer will die. That gives us too many confirmed town roles who can just lynch from the remainder = 100% town win.

With you protecting the Jailkeep.
Unless we hear something interesting about our rolecop's power, and then we can debate an alternate plan.

[Thor665]

Yeah, I'm just not obligating a lynch that has ever been - a claimed PR or one of the copped/jk targets.
Not until the jailkeep is dead, that is.

[Thor665]

Did you see the optimal plan I just laid out?

Does it matter until we hear back from Pistach?
Mine is simpler and has less headaches without making presumptions about his power.

[Thor665]

Yes, but I indicated that in my discussion, and it also only increases the value of you being on the Jailkeeper if he does clarify that is how his power works.

[Thor665]

Because the less able the rolecop is to spot a Godfather the more valuable the JKer becomes.

[Thor665]

If she works like a normal rolecop I'm still pretty sure my method is the best.

[Thor665]

Zakk says I can detect godfathers.

What sort of result would you get on one?

[Thor665]

I will admit that the only player I see a benefit to in the no kill is theory Nacho scum - but, firstly, he doesn't really vibe as scum, and secondly, he's still boned even if he wants to try to ride that one to the finish line.

[Thor665]

So to clarify - you do *not* get results about their abilities, you *do* get results about their role name, with the caveat that VT and Goon are both identified as vanilla - yes/no?

[Thor665]

Okay, when he does if you could update me, that would be excellent.

[Thor665]

I don't know. All I know is that I get role abilities.

And also, by this, you meant "role name" or something, yeah, not "role abilities"?

[Thor665]

That is certainly a possibility.

[Thor665]

I'm not stupid, Thor. I was answering your question under the impression that role name implies role abilities.

I guess I'm the stupid one - that seems like two different things to me.

[Thor665]

When I flip VT, though, I'd definitely suggest looking at Dave.

Why?

[Thor665]

Nacho's fun fact is a half truth.

I look forward to the Godfather answer I should soon have from Pistach.

I see no particular need to lynch today, we can just keep jailing Karmic and investigating other players.

I strongly oppose the idea of role copping Dav - he is either scum or a JK, so we have better people to target with role cops and regular cops.

[Thor665]

I guess he could be scum AND a JK - but the same logic holds.

[Thor665]

Okay, so, officially Bella is confirmed town unless he's a GF *AND* Pistach is his scumbuddy.
So Bella is confirmed.

I advocate the following plan.

Jail: Karmic
Rolecop: Eventi
Cop: One of the G's (Gummy, Garmr, Gimlear - or Thor if you feel paranoid about me, but with Bella as assured town that means either he or I was the kill target Night 1, so I suggest I am 99% confirmed town, as is Nacho)
Doc: Dave

That way, if there is a kill - Karmic is confirmed town.
If there is no kill - Eventi will be confirmed town.
We can then move on from there untill we're either functionally certain that Karmic is the last scum or until scum manage to start killing, which will start clearing people also.

Besides Nacho's strongman fears does anyone see a hole in this plan?

Also, I have to admit, with a claimed rolecop that claims to detect GFs and a claimed Cop, I am relatively certain we're looking at a scum GF for the final scum slot. Yeah?

[Thor665]

Roleblocker, Rolecop, Godfather v. Cop, Rolecop, Jailkeeper, Doc, 6 VTs.

Still looks a touch townsided to my mind, though I admit that I think Doc is an often overestimated role.
That said, a rolecop/block combo is pretty potent for the scum, though the GF is on the weak side with 2 town roles able to 'detect' him, albeit one only in late game (or in a steamrolled game, like this one).

I think I'm leaning towards Karmic being the last scum (Garmr will do a backflip, I presume) or one of the PRs lying to us - but we have them on a pretty rough lockdown at the moment.
Yeah, I'm thinking my plan works as stated.

[Thor665]

@Garmr - for the record, I am almost hoping for Radja

[Thor665]

Or was it Pistach that I was pushing on? I forget - whichever of them it was, then I'll do the backflip.

[Thor665]

We can have the investigators target the same person and it's *pretty much* an autowin.
We can have the investigators target different people and it's an autowin.

I fail to follow here - the cop and rolecop *should* be double checking each others' work, no?
I will agree that I don't see a need for the JKer to triple check anyone, he's a separate clearing machine.

[Thor665]

I don't want to no lynch because that seems like it's unnecessarily delaying the game,

I'd advocate lynch if Karmic claimed scum and didn't feel like waiting a few days for the inevitable lynch

[Thor665]

This is pretty short sighted thor.

Okay.

I disagree.

I find it interesting how nacho mentions town/cop/tracker/roleblocker and not doctor Even through he does claim to be a doctor.

That makes no sense, he was asking for roles that were investigative in nature, A doc, explicitly, is not.

I nearly forgot the fact he didn't say watcher because he was probably only concerned about the people on him to see if his fake claim would stand up.

That is a reasonable concern and at least makes sense.

The no kill can be explained by nacho being scum as well. Since the talk of godfathers and stuff was about he was probally gambling on us lynching the jailed today as he that the point he was pushing all day by pushing the fact we should lynch who we jail this would get him off a lynch today. Him starting to talk about strong arms ect is probably him trying to plant the seeds for a davesaz kill tonight.

I had that thought myself earlier today, and this makes sense as a potential Nacho=scum theory to me.

Nacho is the dodgiest of the power roles.

Not sure I agree with this though.

I don't see particular justification for why scum would shoot Bella though - have you considered that?

[Thor665]

I mean, basically your idea appears to be 'scum shot Bella because Thor waas too obv. town and would draw protection'.
Which, okay, sure, maybe I was too obv. town and would draw protection - I can buy into that because I'm full of myself.

But why pick Bella as the kill?
I mean, there were an odd nine other town slots to choose to kill.
Would Bella have been near the top of your list?

[Thor665]

Bella was not suspicious of Nacho as I recall - if that happened I kind of feel it had to be for a short period and near day start, so that seems unlikely reasoning.
Do you ever kill players off their town reads being right Day 1? I don't - I suspect Nacho wouldn't.
I agree, she was unlikely to draw protection.
Maybe so - of course they had a rolecop to fish for that stuff as well - why not shoot Dave and cop Bella, for instance?

I can somewhat see your fear and theory - it doesn't feel supported enough to worry about at this stage. How about we agree to lynch him if Dave dies before Nacho? I would generically support that idea at this stage - is that good enough for you?

[Thor665]

[vote: No Lynch[/vote]

I advocate the following plan.

Jail: Karmic
Rolecop: Eventi
Cop: One of the G's (Gummy, Garmr, Gimlear - or Thor if you feel paranoid about me, but with Bella as assured town that means either he or I was the kill target Night 1, so I suggest I am 99% confirmed town, as is Nacho)
Doc: Dave

In evaluating Bella as a plausible / implausible kill target for N1, shouldn't her reads on the known scum be taken into account, and not just the unknown ones? And ditto for KarmicGuide.
It also feels like we're relying too much on PR results and ignoring the possibility that VCA can help here.

What VCA are you looking at that appears interesting?

[Thor665]

Gawds I hate this method.

VOTE: No Lynch

[Thor665]

Meaning if we no lynch we get confirmation on Karmic and Eventi!
If we don't no lynch we get confirmation on Karmic, Eventi, and one of Gimlear/Gummy/Garmr!

To clarify this as I see it;

If we no lynch we get confirmation on Eventi, and force scum to either confirm Karmic or expand our capability to get more confirmations.

If we lynch Karmic we sort him and Eventi, and need to sort out specifically who we're jailing to not have overlap of JK and cops (because not doing that is STUPID) and also decrease the theoretical number of chances we'll have to get investigations prior to a eventual mylo/lylo.

So, y'know, one involves less work and seems more powerful to town.
I know if I was scum who wasn't Karmic I would support the lynch in a heartbeat.

[Thor665]

Let's see, Gim and Gummy are the hot to trot G lynchers. Garmr isn't.
So, with that in mind;

Night Plan with No Lynch

Pistach targets Eventi.
Radja investigates Gimlear/Gummy/Garmr.
Dave jails Karmic.
Nacho Docs Dave

Night Plan with Karmic Lynch

Pistach targets Eventi.
Radja investigates Gummy/Garmr.
Dave jails Gimlear
Nacho docs Dave.

I would support that.
I also support no lynch.

[Thor665]

We *never* go into night without clear Jailkeep target, being the point.

[Thor665]

I am less confident in the forced win via lynches than you are - if scum keep no killing than town will auto win, so the mod can speed that up for us if he wants to, but that's the punishment for scum.
My method is strictly superior if they keep failing to kill.
I don't think my method is any worse (and would argue it is better) if they do start killing compared to your method with lynching.
So I just don't see a need to bother with the lynching for the sake of 'speed'.

[Thor665]

I mean, I will be clear, I am 80% confident that Karmic will be our last scum - but in the off chance scum is gambiting with the kills - I'd rather grind them down via logic then hand them mislynches to help their lylo play.

[Thor665]

Sorry that was mean but seriously we were just talking about all the benefits and cons in a lynch and no lynch and everyone admitted that a no lynch was the best option with way better results and no down sides other than the long weight if karmic is scum but the people who want to lynch didn't want to drag this out if he is.

This didn't happen!

Insomuch as not everyone agreed - you are correct.
But you did agree it would lead to a win.

[Thor665]

Why is everyone acting like if we lynch Karmic, we are forced to follow Nacho's plan and lynch every day for the rest of the game? I'm actually ok with lynching Karmic tonight then going into no lynch until we find scum if Karmic flips town.

[Thor665]

Vote yourself or vote no lynch.

[Thor665]

Night Plan with Karmic Lynch
Pistach targets Eventi.
Radja investigates Gummy/Garmr.
Dave jails Gimlear
Nacho docs Dave.

[Thor665]

That hammer though...

[Thor665]

NEW Night Plan with Karmic Lynch

Pistach targets Eventi.
Radja investigates Gimlear/Garmr.
Dave jails Gummy
Nacho docs Dave.

There.
This is the new plan.
Ignore the old plan - that hammer was ugly and sloppy - I'd like to confirm him or have him on lockdown if Karmic isn't scum.

[Thor665]

Meh, sloppy hammers are sloppy and hammers.
The L-1 was done properly - so now either Karmic is scum and we laugh, or he's town and we proceed.

Proceed with this plan;

NEW Night Plan with Karmic Lynch

Pistach targets Eventi.
Radja investigates Gimlear/Garmr.
Dave jails Gummy
Nacho docs Dave.

[Thor665]

No, we're not taking advice from you on cops/rolecops.
We're going with a plan already discussed.

This plan;

NEW Night Plan with Karmic Lynch

Pistach targets Eventi.
Radja investigates Gimlear/Garmr.
Dave jails Gummy
Nacho docs Dave.

Tomorrow, if there's no kill, we'll probably have the same conversation as today with people having the same opinions - which means you'll get lynched unless people's opinions change, in which case you won't.
But the plan is the plan.

[Thor665]

@Garmr - you catch more flies with honey. No need to rage at him, he is either scum who knew what he was doing, or he's town and should hopefully learn not to play that sloppy in the future. Yelling at him shouldn't change anything.

Like the plan, that isn't changing;

NEW Night Plan with Karmic Lynch

Pistach targets Eventi.
Radja investigates Gimlear/Garmr.
Dave jails Gummy
Nacho docs Dave.

Even with a lynch it's not like town is in a terrible position, we're just in a less strong position...or we've won, I could still easily see Karmic as scum.

[Thor665]

Only if it gets you hot.

[Thor665]

Hot like this plan;

NEW Night Plan with Karmic Lynch

Pistach targets Eventi.
Radja investigates Gimlear/Garmr.
Dave jails Gummy
Nacho docs Dave.

[Thor665]

No one jails Nacho.
Gummy is jailed.
Nacho - don't be a twit.

[Thor665]

Don't you see Thor nacho is the last scum

If I were the last scum, I'd still be a bad jail. You realize that, right?

That's not actually true.

That said - you are a dumb jail.

[Thor665]

NEW Night Plan with Karmic Lynch
Pistach targets Eventi.
Radja investigates Gimlear/Garmr.
Dave jails Gummy
Nacho docs Dave or derps around and maybe we lynch him if Dave dies.

[Thor665]

Good.

[Thor665]

You could hypothetically get lynched also - what of it?

[Thor665]

If people wanted to tally-whack you really should have done so long prior to hammer; this is what leads to derp.

Stick to the plan.
There is a plan.
Dave will follow the plan.
Pistach will follow the plan.
Nacho can be lynched if Dave dies - otherwise let's just go with the presumption he's on the plan.

There is one plan - divergence by jailkeeper, cop, or rolecop from plan equates to lynch of said diverger.
You had time to debate the plan - twilight is WAAAAAAY past your chance to act up unless you're claiming scum.

[Thor665]

I'll be shooting Garnr.

Good plan, that will confuse us.

[Thor665]

Yeeessss thor I was right about there being a god father. (irst one to bring that up) and about karmic being scum ohhhhh yeh. Still a no lynch was best.

My recollection is Nacho for the GF talk, but I wouldn't swear to that.
You were assuredly right about Karmic, which is awesome, i was more null on him that day myself - you just shouldn't have been vowing self-lynch in defense of one of the other scum at the same time

This is, I think, my first non-newbie perfect town.
Feels really nice.

[Thor665]

I might argue that the game is a touch town sided, but I'm not sure I'm married to that idea, the scum roles were strong too - they just caught some bad breaks and town had some good play to exacerbate the potential town sidedness. The roleblock going first was huge, natch.

[Thor665]

@Silver - You had a blocker, a rolecop of your own, and the spoiler role that shouldn't even exist, the GF.
I am not saying the game is not townsided - but it is not 'oh dear gawd' town sided by any stretch of the imagination.
I think you just didn't end up with the right players in the slots.

@Garmr - agreed, would have totally mauled him without that.

[Thor665]

It's still townsided Thor

Agreed, I called it that myself.
But give me and another solid mafia player scum roles in this setup and I'd feel perfectly comfortable with our chances of steamrolling - it's not overtly town sided.

[Thor665]

Also, IMO, once the game can be broken by PR's then it's just setup cracking and that's really no fun to be on the other side of. Like, at all.

I agree - I wish there was more mountainous setups.
Any setup with investigatives and protectives can be "broken".

Right, but to Silver's point... there are only three of us, and your PRs make you hard to kill. You guys lose one PR, it's not the end of the world, but once we lost even one scum, it really seemed like there was no coming back.

That's because the scum you lost was the roleblocker - if you had lost the rolecop; no biggie.
Also, I will agree that scum had no protective roles, but...

Can I get some other opinions on what Garmr is saying? Like... good job on your read I guess, but I kind of feel like you were right about me for the wrong reasons. I put a little pressure on you, but nothing like the pressure I put on Ciara or WW. I don't recall trying to twist any words of yours.

I would say the value of that call is best assessed by looking at the wagon on you. He either was convincing people or he was not.
At the end of the day whether or not it was "true" generally doesn't matter.

[Thor665]

My mass-read posts always get me in trouble - even as town. I should stop doing them.

I pretty much never do them, for somewhat similar reasons. Firstly, I think they're vaguely meaningless, secondly, whenever you're town and don't give a hang and have little wishy washy slot that you call as a different value of scum/town because, functionally, you're being forced to give some sort of value call to someone that you otherwise wouldn't even mention all of a sudden people point to your read from 100 posts back that's different and start caterwauling that you're scum.

I don't even know why people like them, honestly.

[Thor665]

@Zakk - now that the game is over, what's up with rule #12? Why no bold tags?

[Thor665]

As an easy example of similar issues - I point you to a RBer loss Day 1 in the Newbie Doc/Cop/RBer setup.
Minis are always swingy on scum PR day 1 losses - it's the nature of a small team and also the nature of the, rather common, protective+investigative combo.

[Thor665]

The GF balances the cop and the scum rc balances the town rc and the RBer balances the jailkeep but what scum PR balances the doc?

You're starting this with a bad presumption.

First off, the town RC does not balance the scum RC - a scum RC is highly potent to scum, especially with a RBer and, also, scum starting with awareness that there is a cop thanks to the presence of the GF.
The town rolecop is marginally good as a tool against the RBer, is a counter to the GF, and is a risk if he is forced to claim as a rolecop is not exactly the best town claim out there.
The jailkeeper is a generic protection role that is balanced because he can also clog up the town PRs, and with three scum is not a very good investigative tool until 2 scum are dead - the only reason he was so potent in this game is because we killed two scum very quickly.
A town Doc is mostly a utility named townie with a slight chance of helping town if he is either lucky early or manages to last late. He was useful this game because scum opted to try to kill one of the more obvious town players, and the Doc also thought said player was fairly obvious.
The roleblocker exists as a strong counter to the investigative powers, as he prevents massclaim shenanigans as long as he is alive - losing him first was a massive blow to scum wincon.

So, functionally, town had a cop who could find 2/3 of the scumteam.
A different cop who could find 2/3 of the scumteam and had a weak claim against lynching.
A weak protective role (Doc)
And a strong protective role with late game investigative powers.
vs.
One of the strongest scum defensive roles (GF)
Arguably one of the best scum roles in the game barring odd ones that don't appear often (roleblocker)
And a scum role that is of middle tier but tends to be considered higher tier when paired with an RBer (rolecop)

Where I think the setup is unbalanced is, I think giving town a rolecop and scum a rolecop is a little wonky - I'd rather see town net a tracker, for similar effect and a very slightly less powerful ability, and see the JKer shifted to a full 'Alien' JKer just to allow scum a bit of wiggle room there. That said, I don't actually think either change is needed for balance.

The problem with this game is that, literally, the scum's best tool to control town was lynched Day 1. That is the begining and the end of why the scum team burst into flames so quickly - give us even a different scum lynch and it wouldn't have been so damaging. Give us a town lynch nd scum could have been in a grand position Day 2. Which, in essence, means that the game is not unbalanced - an unbalanced game would allow town to gak 1-2 lynches early and *still* have scum on their back heel. That was not the case in this setup.