kuribo in Wonderland - [Game Over]

[G[o]dz]

Hi, guys. I have done some research into the flavour of this game and I'm pretty excited for it! Uh... Hold on, I'm not very accustomed to this sort of thing, but I'll try rephrasing that properly so I fit in...

IT IS UNFORTUNATE THERE IS NO LYNCHING IN THIS GAME SINCE, OUTSIDE OF COMPLETING MY ROMANTIC NOVEL ABOUT THE TALE OF A YOUNG PEASANT TENTACLE DEMON, OUTCAST BY HIS FRIENDS AND FAMILY FOR HAVING A FREAKISHLY LARGE MEMBER, AND HIS FORBIDDEN LOVE AFFAIR WITH A HALF-FISH-HALF-HORSE PRINCESS FROM A FARAWAY LAND (IN ALL GOOD BOOK STORES SOON), ROPING SCUM FUCKS IS THE SINGLE GREATEST PLEASURE IN LIFE. OH, AND IF THE KING KILLS ME, THEY'LL BE BEGGING FOR THE RELIEF OF ETERNAL HELLFIRE WHEN I'M DONE RIPPING THEIR SOUL FROM THEIR BODY AND USING IT AS TOILET PAPER AFTER A NIGHT OF EATING CURRIES AND BURRITOS.

I do hope I was able to greet you all in a satisfactory manner. Let's have a good game!

[G[o]dz]

Hmmmh... I do not know if I've played with anyone in this player list before, so I don't really know who the most kingly person is. For now, I think I will vote for Kastuko because his signature has a game about cupcakes and I think anyone who likes cupcakes has really good judgment and therefore is probably fit to be king.

VOTE: Kastuki

On another note, I am hoping to earn whatever town credit it may afford me by mentioning that everybody should claim a target and a cop result at the start of each day phase (regardless of your actual role). I am guessing cops will not be a major factor in this game but it does not hurt to potentially have a game-changing piece of the puzzle later on.

I have also considered the idea of keeping an unofficial

"real"

votecount... i.e. Having each player vote for who they really want to lynch with something like "

PISS LOCUST ON: XXXXX

" where XXXXX is the name of a player and "piss locust on" is a vote (in line with the flavor). I would be fine with keeping a tally of who pisses locust on who (an unofficial vote count), and perhaps at the end of the day, the player who has the most locust pissed on them can be chosen by the king? It would require the king not being arrogant enough to reject the majority, though. But it also means that it doesn't really matter if, say, we elect scum as king because they don't choose the lynch, we do. 'tis just an idea that could be considered.

[G[o]dz]

My phone is dying. If you don't possess a Kuribo avatar and your name is not DGB, you are not worthy of my vote.

Vote: Katsuki

Well, it is good then that I have no intention of being King. I would, however, like to be considered for the position of the King's favorite concubine or perhaps the loveable court jester

(that is secretly an evil mastermind who nobody suspects until it's too late)

.

[G[o]dz]

I don't really have any sort of town read on Kastuki and think there's actually a greater-than-average chance that he could be a scum.

I will probably never vote Fate, even though he may very well be town, I just do not think he really seems like a very good player. Also, given his statement about cupcakes, I cannot see him as someone who has good judgment.

I would be fine with voting kuribo to be king since he could very well be town and I trust his judgment more than either of the running candidates (which, as of right now, looks worse than the presidential race in terms of possible choices).

[G[o]dz]

Antihero is maybe a scum.

[G[o]dz]

There are four scums (don't ask me how I know this, I am psycho). I think Antihero and Kastuki could be two of them but I am not very confident in many reads yet.

[G[o]dz]

I don't Kastuki has said anything that seems very town at all and a lot of the seemingly-reasonable statements he's making are seeming-reasonable statements I could see a scum making to seem seemingly-reasonable.

I haven't liked Antihero's posts at all.

If I had some amazing reasoning for these reads, I would not be not very confident. I just don't think they look town.

As for kuribo, I don't really know how to put it except that I think he is making town posts. It is not so easy a thing to describe and it is not so strong that I would bet money on it.

[G[o]dz]

an explanation for you how you arrived at "fate's no good" is also in order

I don't mean to be insulting, but he doesn't seem like the brightest pencil in the toolbox and I do not think he looks like a very good player at all. Though I don't think he looks like he's saying and doing the things he's saying and doing as a scum, at least not from what I have read so far.

[G[o]dz]

For a moment there I read vig as something else and thought you were referring to your own mother.

[G[o]dz]

I would rather you didn't. I have a limited supply.

[G[o]dz]

BTW GODZ IS TOWN BEYOND TOWN AND IS A TRUSTED ADVISOR/CONCUBINE

For the record, this is one of many not-very-town-seeming posts that I think Kastuki has made but I cannot really explain well why I think this. That said, I appreciate the offer and would gladly be your concubine, even if you are an evil king who spreads lies and deceit among us.

[G[o]dz]

That isn't the reason for it. Kastuki knows something Pawtucket doesn't (or didn't) and that's all I am going to say on the matter.

[G[o]dz]

I don't think Brian Skies looks like a scum

[G[o]dz]

dz post_id=7934699 time=1463809387 user_id=15399 post_num=295]That isn't the reason for it. Kastuki knows something Pawtucket doesn't (or didn't) and that's all I am going to say on the matter.

Who is Pawtucket and what?

Hmmm. It doesn't really matter. I apologise for being cryptic. All you need to know is that the reason you're suggesting is not the reason.

[G[o]dz]

They are town

I mostly agree with this.

[G[o]dz]

I mostly don't agree with that.

[G[o]dz]

I mostly don't agree with that, either.

[G[o]dz]

heres the thing


it's not enough to know what your kinda-sorta-reads are


we need to know WHY you have those reads

if it's just gut or whatever, say so, but "oh i'm not getting into it" and "oh, i can't explain it"

if you want to help, then help, but tossing out fence-sitty platitudes isn't helping the rest of us

Thank you for giving me tips. I will keep your advice in mind when giving reads in the future. I apologise for being so incompetent - please don't think ill of me because I am not explaining reads like others are.

[G[o]dz]

fence-sitty

What "fence" do you see me sitting on?

[G[o]dz]

What do you think I haven't tried to do?

[G[o]dz]

Be more specific.

[G[o]dz]

I explained why I thought Kastuko was scum - I just didn't provide a plethora of examples.

I didn't explain why I thought you were scum because you literally have no game-related content. You haven't given any reads and you haven't been scum hunting at all. What are you expecting? Me to quote non-existent posts and say "because of these non-existent posts, I have come to the conclusion that because they don't exist, Antihero is a scum"?

[G[o]dz]

What? Your extremely non-committal "mkay spiffeh's scum" because he said he had two town reads? That was serious?

I find it ironic that you call my posts "shitposting" if that's the level of play I can expect from you.

[G[o]dz]

yeah ok now i just have a flat-out scumread on godz

Is this the part where I ask you to elaborate and you either (a) give an incredibly awful explanation and pretend it's not awful, or (b) pretend that you're not giving an explanation because I don't explain things either?

[G[o]dz]

Kastuki, I have a single request:

If you become King, please strongly consider making Antihero dead. For me. Thanks. I don't care if you're a scum. Just do it and I'll vote you every day I'm alive.

[G[o]dz]

Grant his wish, Kastuko.

[G[o]dz]

i gave a read so that's like...

not true?

I also like that your defense to no scum hunting and no reads is "I gave

a read

so that's not true"

Like, literally, your whole rebuttal was "I gave a read" (a read which happened AFTER I mentioned my read on you, by the way, so the timeline of events is still in my favour).

[G[o]dz]

"I have a could shots in mind" "Guess who" "It's zakk"

Yeah, I suppose if you squint, that could be interpreted as a scum read. My bad. You've given a read. Two if we count spiffeh. Now three if we count me. Zero town reads and zero explanations (wait, isn't it unhelpful to do that?) and, more to the point, zero scum hunting effort. If I'm being really, really, really generous, "does he always act like this?" is maybe scum hunting? Not really, though. So still, no.

You go off about how I'm not being helpful and shit. Where's your fucking explanations? You've been asked and refused to elaborate. Why are you "spamming" and "shitposting"?

[G[o]dz]

Oh, actually, you did ask KittyMo why he thinks Skybird is a scum. Technically that could be construed as scum hunting, too. I guess it's not fair to say zero.

I think it's best to rephrase: the amount of scum hunting and the reads you've given is so pitiful in comparison to the amount of posts you've made that have nothing to do with finding scum that I think it's more likely you're not fighting for justice than not.

[G[o]dz]

And, still, no explanation for the "reads" you've given, after a full-blown criticism about how that sort of "spam" doesn't move the game forward.

*clap* *clap*

You're really sticking it to me by doing what you think is not-good-for-the-game just to make a point about your opinion on me.

You sure are a good player.

[G[o]dz]

Other than the fact that I'm more interested in your read on me (since it's the only read you've explicitly stated as a full-on scum read), how exactly is one supposed to glean that it's a meta-based read when you literally ask if he's always like that? Doesn't it defeat the purpose of a "meta-based" read if you don't even know what you're talking about?

[G[o]dz]

to keep the thread from getting toxic i'll just disengage i guess...?

you can have the last word

If you're going to use this as an excuse to lurk, I'm going to demand Katsuko shoots you.

Asking you to explain your read on me isn't toxic and isn't going to make the thread toxic. Ask you about your other reads doesn't require any toxicity, either, and there's no good reason to avoid answering the questions.

[G[o]dz]

I don't think Godz/Antihero is TvT (I can already hear the gasps of surprise).

Let's consider his latest post about zakk, for example (ignoring the fact that zakk wasn't what I wanted to know about - but let's give Antihero the benefit of the doubt and assume he forgot that I asked specifically about his read on me and where it was coming from). He

claims

that the zakk read was meta-based and he claims I should have gleaned this from context. What context? This sequence of posts...

is zakk usually this cloyingly shitick-ish?

is zakk usually this cloyingly shitick-ish?

He was better in the last game I played with him, and he was scum.

what is "better"?

what is "better"?

More enjoyable.

mmmmmmmmmmmmm

not sure what game youre referring to but in evolution he didn't go out of his way to be cute

Now if this was a "meta read" like he claims, then he shouldn't have needed to ask #285. But he did. So what he must mean (if it's not talking out of his ass) is that it's a "meta read" based on a perceived difference between one game (presumably a town game) and this game, with no other context. Does this sort of process seem like a genuine thought process to you? Do you think that someone else should have been able to glean from the context that this was a meta read because he mentioned a game after asking a question about how zakk usually acts?

As a side note, I really think Antihero isn't talking about his read on me because he's stalling in hopes that the question will go away without him having to answer it. I think he overstepped with a fake scum read on me and isn't adept enough to come up with a reason for it that seems legitimate. I think maybe he might be able to come up with some bullshit excuse for it after sleeping on it, but I think the reason he avoided doing so at the point he said it was because he was worried about how obvious it would be if he gave a bullshit reason without thinking it through.

[G[o]dz]

i also have a couple reads in my back pocket that i'm holding off on even introducing to the threat yet (precisely because i can't articulate them and dont know if they're shit or not; this is why i said i have a "couple" ideas for shots).

Also, I think this line is pure bullshit.

Firstly, when he's willing to call, for example, spiffeh scum for (presumably) claiming town reads on zakk/camn (I say presumably because he never actually elaborates but he also never denied the scum read, so I'm going to interpret what I see), then how on Godz green earth could whatever reads he's holding onto be so weak that he can't talk about them?

And secondly, when did he ever elaborate on anything prior to this post? He's mentioned reads, sure, and I guess he apparently alluded to the reasoning for the zakk read, albeit I don't think anyone could have guessed that the sequence of events in the above posts was his reasoning for the zakk read... He's clearly open to the idea of stating reads without reasoning... Why can't he just... say the names of the people he's considering?

Also, with me, spiffeh and zakk included, he's got a fairly enormous number of reads that he thinks could be scum and a surprisingly small number of people he's mentioned a town read on.

Oh, and as an aside to the previous post, I would like for Antihero to talk about why those posts in particular pinged based on his knowledge of zakk's "meta".

[G[o]dz]

"Those posts" being:

your face is aggressively bad

no but for real whats this locust pissing flavor? youre the titular character of the game so i figured you'd know. explain to us peasants who haven't played kingmaker locust piss flavored hellamadness games before.

no, not really. lol

i figure if i'm still alive after like 4-5 days, there will be enough associatives to give a fuck, but until then, this game is pretty much madness

Because apparently, according to #304 by Antihero, this constitutes zakk going out of his way to be cute and this, seemingly, is not in line with zakk's meta of putting "different levels of effort into being charismatic".

(By the way, apparently Antihero mentioned "both these games" at some point but I'm having trouble finding anything other than an obscure reference to "evolution"

[G[o]dz]

And he has given reasons for scumreading you

Like?

it's more likely that he does believe that it could be gleaned even if he is scum

No, what I think is going on here is he did overstep his bounds and had to come up with something to make him not seem like a hypocrite.

I think he said it could be gleaned not because he actually thought it could be gleaned but because he he gleaned that saying it could be gleaned was the only real way to counter the points I was making.

I think he's genuinely frustrated at you

Oh, I know he's genuinely frustrated at me. But I don't think he had much of a choice. He didn't engage me, I engaged him. If he's scum, he could of course choose to ignore me; do you think that was a viable option for him given the situation? What did you expect him to do in response to me?

(Also him backing off because of "toxicity" when literally all I was doing was asking him about his reads at the time isn't a town move).

[G[o]dz]

To be clear, re: gleaning...

The conversation at the time was about how he hadn't elaborated on anything.

In order to "prove" he'd given some reasoning, he made an obscure reference to something I should have been able to glean. This was because he didn't want to just admit "hey, I haven't been giving any reasoning and that directly contradicts what I was going off at you about with regards to spam posts".

[G[o]dz]

And he has given reasons for scumreading you.

So I'm going back and checking.

He never gave reasons for scum-reading me.

It can be inferred, however, that the read came from #330 based on what he wrote in #332. It can also be guessed that (a) it had something to do with me saying something that he thought wasn't true (#331), and (b) that this was something that was building up over a number of posts (based on "now" in #332).

Prior to #332 he mentioned "loose vig" and "policy execute" - neither of these indicate a scum read, though - in fact, I thought they indicated the opposite (a grudging town read).

[G[o]dz]

yeah, shoot either godz or me because i'm through w/ being in the same game as him

I also think this is a funny thing to say about someone you're apparently scum-reading. I understand the sentiment - I wouldn't play in a game with me if I could help it - but I also don't think it's a town sentiment (gasps of surprise can be heard again).

Does a town player say "shoot me or the person I've implied is my strongest scum read

because

I don't want to be in the same game" as a response to said scum read asking for him to be shot? At the very least, I'd expect something like "shoot me, then godz tonight/tomorrow" if he's going to ask for it.

[G[o]dz]

I believe he's trying to express that you should be electing someone you think is town with good reads (reads that align with your own), but the reality of it is that electing someone to shoot your scum reads serves the same purpose.

Why do you think what he was trying to say is important? It's clearly a theory point that has very little to do with anything.

[G[o]dz]

If the things prior to #330 were related to a scum read on me, then why was he talking about "policy execution" rather than a scum read, in your opinion?

[G[o]dz]

These posts is where the potential for toxicity came from

None of those posts would have happened if he explained his read and none of those posts necessitated further "toxicity" if he explained his read.

[G[o]dz]

you seem to be suggesting that Antihero can't have weak reads because of his approach to Spiffeh

I'm suggesting the opposite, actually.

Why do you think that he as scum is incapable of giving out a couple of fake reads as scum?

I think he'd avoid it if he thought it would make him look worse, yes.

I don't mind this. Why do you?

Why

don't

you? Do you think his approach to the game is a genuine one? Do you think he's more likely to come up with a long list of names he wants dead and a non-existent list of names he doesn't?

[G[o]dz]

I was asking Nacho, not you. I'm trying to get a read on Nacho and your interference is not helping.

I don't really care. Why do you think any answer he gives is going to help you get a read?

[G[o]dz]

dz post_id=7935968 time=1463860303 user_id=15399 post_num=442]If the things prior to #330 were related to a scum read on me, then why was he talking about "policy execution" rather than a scum read, in your opinion?

I believe that the reason that he thought you were scum were based on 275, which was the post that kuribo and I both expressed dislike of. I believe that he referred to policy executing you has more for your "I agree/I disagree" series of posts more than anything else.

Have you ever used "policy" to describe a scum read? Have you ever seen anyone use "policy" to describe a scum read?

That Antihero has to have strong reads thanks to his response to Spiffeh?

... That he can (and does) have weak reads (as evidenced by his read on Spiffeh) but is unwilling to share other weak reads because... <insert bad reason>

[G[o]dz]

I'm not going to pretend #346 wasn't hostile but none of that needed to happen if Antihero just explained his read (i.e. not doing the very thing he was claiming is really bad for the game state). And since the entire point of it was that he was deliberately not explaining where his read on me came from when asked about it (go figure, still hasn't happened), it didn't need to continue past the point he explained it.

Backing off for reasons of "toxicity" is a cop-out - it's pretty fucking clear that I wanted to know his reasons for the read on me (not the read on zakk, which I didn't even ask about).

[G[o]dz]

Why do you think that he thought that giving out a couple of reasonless reads would make him look worse? Why would he bring them up if he thought elaborating on them would make him look worse?

It's a subconscious thing. Scum players in general try to make as few perceived enemies as they can. Especially if he's not a particularly strong scum player in the first place, he'd want to not make enemies of players who are likely to get their way if they sense bullshit.

I think it's less what reads that he has and more what reads that he's willing to share; I think it's smarter in Kingmaker setups to be far more cautious about town reads than you should be in a normal game (since incorrect town reads are more likely to lead to scum kings which are horrible for town), and for some people, being more cautious is waiting for a little while before talking about those reads.

That's bullshit. There's no reason you cannot talk about reads - that doesn't lead to anything more than it does in a regular game unless you're acting on reads that you aren't very confident about, in which case that's your own fault for being inept. Talking about your reads isn't the same as acting on them and electing a king based on something not very strong...

I'm not the player to use "policy" descriptions in general, but I have been irritated enough with players that I've been scum reading where "policy" could be used to describe part of why I wanted them to die, if that makes sense.

The situation you're describing here seems clearly different to what actually happened in this game.

Up to the point where he said "policy execution", do you think it makes sense for him, scum-reading me, to say that after not mentioning anything related to a scum read on me if he was scum reading me?

[G[o]dz]

I doubt talking to me about my read on Antihero is going to make me change my mind when he continues to avoid doing anything I want him to do, just FYI.

Another reason I don't like him backing off when he did is that it gives him this smokescreen to hide behind because, unless someone else demands it, he can pretend he's ignoring me for "toxicity" reasons or something like that.

[G[o]dz]

Nachomamma8,

If you want me to see Antihero is town, then ask him these questions and see if he answers:

Where did your scum read on Godz come from? Could you go into detail about this?
Why are you claiming the zakk read is "meta-based" if you didn't have enough of a grasp of zakk's meta that you needed to ask a question about how he always acts?

If the questions are coming from someone else and he still chooses to avoid them, then he's doing what he says is bad for the game state to prove some point.

[G[o]dz]

I think Brian Skies is more likely town than not. I liked the way he engaged with Nacho. It is not a read I would bet money on, but I think the arguments about him being scum/scummy because of who he wants/wanted elected as king are pretty turd.

[G[o]dz]

I don't think that this response meshes very well with your suspicion on Antihero for having more scum reads than town reads.

You're conflating two different things, so I don't really understand your point here. He claims he has more scum reads (or people he's suspicious of) than he's talking about, which means he has a quite-large list of players he's suspicious of in comparison to players he's not, and I don't think this is normal (especially this early in day one). I also think he's not talking about them because, either he was bullshitting (he doesn't want to have to throw out names and find a potential excuse later for them) or he doesn't want to make enemies of players who are likely to push him if they don't like what they see.

Why would him explicitly stating why he thought you were scum make him later saying that he wanted a policy execute on you any better?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

[G[o]dz]

dz post_id=7936072 time=1463863310 user_id=15399 post_num=486]

Why would him explicitly stating why he thought you were scum make him later saying that he wanted a policy execute on you any better?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

OK, never mind, I reread this enough times to understand it.

The point is that I doubt he'd use that choice of words in the first place with a scum read on me, given what had taken place in the game at the time. And the point is that if he were scum-reading me, he would have stated so (possibly instead of) saying "policy execute", which has connotations of not caring about the person's alignment.

[G[o]dz]

he will still have to engage with those who have a more proven track record of reading him, and he will still have to fake scum hunting other places

This is true and part of why I am not so concerned at the moment with pushing him. I am interested in seeing whether he ever does this. I expect nothing more than a surface-level appearance of scum-hunting but we will see, I suppose.

My intention is not to be your messenger

Then speculating about things like "I think he thought this" without him explicitly saying so is meaningless. You're not going to convince me of anything. And if your aim is to convince me to look elsewhere, then this is pointless.

[G[o]dz]

To be fair, Godz is the type of player who usually doesn't feel genuine, aside from when he is professing his love for cupcakes.

Should I have a town read on you, Kastuki?

[G[o]dz]

Using an example of someone talking about policy when they're explicitly scum reading someone doesn't really apply to here... I know you can scum read someone and want them dead for policy reasons...

[G[o]dz]

Re: policy execute (since I think this is a rather important point about when he started scum reading me)

Do you think it is normal behaviour (or even behaviour that had ever happened before) for someone who is scum reading someone else to not mention the scum read and instead say he wants that someone else lynched on policy?

[G[o]dz]

dz post_id=7936183 time=1463866102 user_id=15399 post_num=501]

To be fair, Godz is the type of player who usually doesn't feel genuine, aside from when he is professing his love for cupcakes.

Should I have a town read on you, Kastuki?

Obviously.

Oh. I must be doing it wrong, then. =(

Did I miss the part where you wrote a town post?

[G[o]dz]

I don't want Katsuki to be King

I don't want anyone who wants to be king to be king.

I just want to see which town player Kastuki chooses to shoot.

[G[o]dz]

I don't think you're actually going to shoot him, but it would be a pleasant surprise.

[G[o]dz]

I believe that a scum player who was too afraid to mention names of people that he was scum reading because he was too afraid to make enemies would also be the type of player who would be the type of player who as scum would mention town reads more than they would mention scum reads since it would mean that they could give their genuine opinions on things and would also avoid making enemies. Does this make sense to you?

If the game had progressed naturally without me attacking Antihero, the last paragraph might make sense. I think I threw his rhythm off.

I don't understand why he would say that he had more names if he didn't want to have to fake reasons for them

It makes him appear like he's putting more thought into the game than he actually is, while not actually having to back it up (because he doesn't think it's strong enough to mention, or something like that).

Speaking of which, I am aware that in recent pages he's provided a full "reads" list, which is interesting in itself. I do find it intriguing that his meh/scum list is all players who haven't posted/haven't posted much or not very strong players and his town list is basically everyone that's vocal... But aside from that, if he can do that, then surely he can talk about the qualms he had earlier aside from SirCakez.

"That choice of words" is meaning policy execute, correct? I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "what had taken place in the game at the time".

I mean specifically that, had Antihero thought I was scum at the point he mentioned a "policy execute", that choice of wording would be strange because, and I may be wrong, but no one ever who has had a scum read on someone has mentioned wanting them dead for policy reasons without mentioning the scum read... But since Antihero has outright said that it was #330 that caused the scum read and not what you were thinking it was, it looks like I'm (probably) correct about this.

[G[o]dz]

oh ffs who changed the fucking iso code

Like this: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... B%5D=13446

Use the % plus the hex code for [ and ]

That said, I am not pleased with what I see when I click that link.

[G[o]dz]

Kastuki,

Do you think my assessment of Fate in #276 was fair or am I perhaps underestimating him? I need to know your opinion because I trust you to tell me the truth. If I'm wrong, then maybe he is a better king than you.

[G[o]dz]

Yes, that does make more sense, thank you. Do you think you should be king today?

So you asked Nachomamma8 a question that was entirely theory and he gave you an answer that was entirely theory and doesn't reflect anything about his alignment at all. Why was this so important for you and how did it help you figure out his alignment? Why aren't you asking him any sort of hard-hitting questions if you want to figure out his alignment?

[G[o]dz]

dz post_id=7934616 time=1463807163 user_id=15399 post_num=272]There are four scums (don't ask me how I know this, I am psycho). I think Antihero and Kastuki could be two of them but I am not very confident in many reads yet.

If you think Kats is scummy, why haven't you moved your vote?

Indeed.

[G[o]dz]

I already told you that you interupted that exchange and derailed it. As to your second question, my scum hunting methods are different from yours.

Why does it matter that I interrupted your questioning (even though I clearly didn't since he answered your question independent of me anyway)?

The point is that your question has literally no relevance to his alignment and any answer he gave you wouldn't tell you anything about whether he's scum or town. You may as well have asked him something generic like, "how do you decide whether something is scummy?" and then hummed and hawed at his totally-generic-and-not-indicative-of-alignment-at-all answer, for all that was worth.

What were you hoping to get out of it and what did you get out of it? Don't blame me for the non-answer, you asked a dumb question.

I wouldn't be surprised if scum were attempting to buddy or WK me.

Yeah. I think this is a good point because scum probably get a lot out of trying to be your ally.

Who do you think I'm going to shoot?

Assuming you're scum, probably town player X, where X is a kill you think people will give you the least flak for when it happens. If Antihero happens to be town, I don't expect you're going to shoot him because you're worried about the backlash you might receive for it, given the divided opinions on whether he's "obviously town" or not. If he's scum, it depends on whether you think there's a benefit in shooting him.

If you were town, then I dunno. You might shoot Antihero or you might shoot someone you're more confident about.

To be honest, while I wouldn't shed a single tear at Antihero dying D1, a less controversial pick isn't necessarily the worst option. Who specifically, I would have to think about it.

dz post_id=7938354 time=1463949798 user_id=15399 post_num=634]Kastuki,

Do you think my assessment of Fate in #276 was fair or am I perhaps underestimating him? I need to know your opinion because I trust you to tell me the truth. If I'm wrong, then maybe he is a better king than you.

I think it's a fairly accurate description.

OK, good. I was unsure because a lot of people seem to think Fate is better than he appears to be and I was worried I may have misjudged him.

[G[o]dz]

I did get something out of it.

Oh? What?

[G[o]dz]

I'll note that I'm a site-renowned VI.

You're a VI? I would never have been able to tell from your well-written posts and like of cupcakes, Kastuki.

[G[o]dz]

go ahead, i'm not really having any fun

If I'm the reason you're not having fun, I'm not really invested in this game enough that I give a shit about replacing out so I'm also more than happy to. If you're not saying this because of me, then you should just replace out - there's literally no point in being in the game if you're going to be (or pretend to be, in the case you're scum) apathetic.

[G[o]dz]

dz post_id=7938694 time=1463961796 user_id=15399 post_num=658]

dz post_id=7934616 time=1463807163 user_id=15399 post_num=272]There are four scums (don't ask me how I know this, I am psycho). I think Antihero and Kastuki could be two of them but I am not very confident in many reads yet.

If you think Kats is scummy, why haven't you moved your vote?

Indeed.

This isn't an answer.

W... Why, you're right. It appears I didn't really answer your question. My apologies.

[G[o]dz]

While I don't really like you as a mafia player, I don't think you're a bad player and I didn't come into this game with any intention of fighting you (it just happened to play out that way because of your responses to me... and if it isn't already blatantly clear what Kastuki was referring to when he mentioned a previous TvT spat, then I don't really know what to say). That said, if what happened between you and me is a contributing factor in why you're not having fun, then I'm sorry that it played out the way it did. I'm not exactly someone who holds back when I think something and what I think is clearly not always very nice.

I'll admit in the pages following the spat in this game, I was pretty ready to replace out myself but I didn't because I didn't mind having an exchange with Nachomamma8 and I am enjoying bantering with Kastuki. I would suggest if you don't want to replace out, you find yourself an anchor or two with who you can interact. And if you're still feeling apathetic and me replacing out wouldn't help it, consider replacing out then.

I say this independent of my thoughts on you or your alignment in this game - I would prefer playing a game without anyone (else) replacing out, if it can be helped, but if you're not having fun, then you're not having fun and you're better off replacing out.

[G[o]dz]

I don't know how you can call yourself a VI when you so cleverly see through my ploys, Kastuki.

[G[o]dz]

The funny thing is, based on your words, I'm saying the things you expect scum-Kats to be saying, while you're saying the things I expect scum-Godz to be saying.

Uh-huh. Which things? And does this mean you're no longer reading me as town?

[G[o]dz]

Kamagi is more likely town than not.

[G[o]dz]

I think it comes from my love of FG games. They tend to bring out the best of me.

Have you ever done badly in FakeGod games? Could you tell us what happened in those games, if so? I ask for scientific reasons only (to see if you're truly fit to be king).

[G[o]dz]

If you think he's transparently town why did you shade him in that one post of yours I quoted earlier?

To be fair, even if you think a player is town, you can acknowledge that you don't like a certain post or posts. And even if you think someone is town, if someone else is claiming a town read on that person for a post that you don't think warrants a town read, criticising the town read is a good thing to do (not because you want them to be seen as scum, but because breaking down reads you think make no sense is part of the scum hunting process).

I don't really see an inconsistency there. He may be scum independent of that, but this isn't particularly worrying, in my opinion.

I actually don't mind his posts as much as others seem to, and I don't know why the whole "making Godz electable" is a big point of contention for some (as laughable as it may be). If he thinks I'm the sort of player who is unlikely to be night-killed over others (a fair assessment; I am nowhere near the level of player that, for example, Kastuki is) and he is town, it benefits him in the long run if people have a good opinion of me. And, even if he's scum, I think he thinks this is the sort of forward-vision he would have as town, so it's either something he's doing as town because that's how he thinks town will win in the long run or it's something he's doing as scum because that's how he'd approach the game as town. Either way, it's not so big a deal (at least to me).

I don't think he's done anything out of the realm of possibility for scum, but I don't think any of the things he's done are particularly scummy and I think some of his actions are more likely to come from town than scum.

[G[o]dz]

Oh, and whether or not this is a big deal (I think it is, others may disagree), the reason the king candidates

should

be claiming a target before they hit L-1 is to allow for claims. Whether those claims matter or not is another matter, but it's sound play to do so.

Then again, it's also sound play to issue imminent destruction (potentially via aids-carrying-locust piss or fiery piss), but that isn't happening either, so fuck it.

[G[o]dz]

... "Last bumped"?

[G[o]dz]

Side note: If Antihero is town, I think it's pretty likely SirCakez is scum. Actually SirCakez might be scum regardless of Antihero. The amount of what can only be called white-knighting is beyond ridiculous, and far beyond the level of a town player thinking he has a read correct.

[G[o]dz]

Actually, looking through that ISO, SirCakez might just be scum full stop.

[G[o]dz]

How observant.

That said, lines equivalent to "he is scum reading my town read and is therefore scum" are either coming from an incredibly stupid mindset or a mindset that isn't genuine.

I would like it if someone who has played with SirCakez before could tell me whether he's ever said anything similar to the things he's said about Antihero (and the people scum-reading Antihero) in this game as town. I would research it myself... but I'm lazy.

[G[o]dz]

dz post_id=7939904 time=1464013370 user_id=15399 post_num=826]That said, lines equivalent to "he is scum reading my town read and is therefore scum" are either coming from an incredibly stupid mindset or a mindset that isn't genuine.

Where did I ever say something like this?

You literally said it when you realised zakk said he wanted Antihero executed, and it was your direct response to my post about Antihero.

I've compiled a list of quotes from you about Antihero.

Spoiler:

dz post_id=7934819 time=1463813735 user_id=15399 post_num=337]Kastuki, I have a single request:

If you become King, please strongly consider making Antihero dead. For me. Thanks. I don't care if you're a scum. Just do it and I'll vote you every day I'm alive.

Ok Godz is scum nvm. Execute this pls.
Anti is solidly town for me now from his reaction to...this.

Godz vs Anti does not look like TvT at all Nacho.

Godz vs Anti does not look like TvT at all Nacho.

Why do you say that?

Because of the way they're attacking each other so much. And I have a pretty strong scumread on Godz and townread on Anti.

Wait lol I didn't even see that zakk wanted Anti executed. That's another scummy thing to add to the pile.

I don't think Anti is faking being pissed. I've seen him like this as town before and his rage definitely looks read. Albeit I've failed at reading whether rage is real or not before.

I withdraw my Antihero townread

Why?

^ This one isn't even trying, since Spiffeh goes into more detail than most people about this...

"Antihero is kinda scummy" lol what this is so vague

It's actually not as over-the-top as I originally thought it was. Or rather, it wouldn't be if there was any decent reasoning in there. But things like "because of the way they're attacking each other so much" (which makes literally no sense if you stop and think about it; you think antihero is town despite him attacking that much, why would that necessitate the other party being scum?) and "zakk wants antihero executed"? Yeeeeeeeeeah...

[G[o]dz]

Give me your top three town and scum reads and why, Mr Cakez.

[G[o]dz]

That's never happening, Kamagi, so what are you trying to achieve?

[G[o]dz]

That doesn't make sense. At all. If one can be town who isn't re-evaluating, why can't the other?

[G[o]dz]

That's not answering the question.

Also, I don't believe you've been on MS for a year and never seen two town players argue worse than that.

[G[o]dz]

It's nothing to do with spirit of the game. As long as most of the game is ignoring optimal play, who's going to dictate gaiden's target in the event you somehow get enough popular support to make him king? You? Or you think we're going to magically co-ordinate gaiden as king and have a majority vote for who the target should be in the next five days?

[G[o]dz]

Only weak players wouldn't reevaluating by this point - I don't think Anti and you are weak - > TvS

Still. Doesn't. Make. Sense.

If Antihero wasn't reevaluating and Antihero isn't a weak player, then you must naturally think he's scum for it, if that is your premise. Or you think he's town, in which case the premise you're arguing from is flawed.

[G[o]dz]

dz post_id=7939956 time=1464015055 user_id=15399 post_num=847]

Only weak players wouldn't reevaluating by this point - I don't think Anti and you are weak - > TvS

Still. Doesn't. Make. Sense.

If Antihero wasn't reevaluating and Antihero isn't a weak player, then you must naturally think he's scum for it, if that is your premise. Or you think he's town, in which case the premise you're arguing from is flawed.

You don't get to facepalm when your argument makes Skybird's posts seem sensible.

[G[o]dz]

What are you currently expecting to be accomplished through a katsuki kingship?

I fully expect a town player to be shot. That said, I fully expect a town player to be shot regardless of who gets elected. I'm not so interested in talking about why I'm voting Kastuki at the moment. He knows I'm looking for something and I know he knows I'm looking for something and that is the game we are playing.

[G[o]dz]

The whole "tell him who to kill" part is the part that isn't going to happen. In the end, if SXTLHGaiden gets elected, it's going to be Kamagi's decision on who to shoot. Even if I felt confident Kamagi was town, I wouldn't necessarily trust her reads to be accurate.

[G[o]dz]

I can facepalm when the argument is going in circles and In just having to restate things over and over.

Yeah, when you keep restating that 1+1 = 3 and I'm showing you that no, actually, it doesn't, then we're going to go in circles.

You're making the claim that because neither Antihero or I re-evaluated, one of us must be scum. I've explained to you why this doesn't make sense.

If you're going to argue it, do it in the form of Premise A, Premise B, etc -> Conclusion.

Otherwise, your argument is a turd sandwich and one which I don't think any decent player can actually believe is a good one.

[G[o]dz]

I think you would, but regardless, pseudo-votes were basically thrown out the window on page two.

Apparently it's not fun for the game or something. Good luck getting a majority.

[G[o]dz]

Katsuki has stopped doing things

Wait, Kastuki was doing things?

We're talking about this game, right?

[G[o]dz]

dz post_id=7939998 time=1464016334 user_id=15399 post_num=863]I think you would, but regardless, pseudo-votes were basically thrown out the window on page two.

Apparently it's not fun for the game or something. Good luck getting a majority.

sure they were thrown out because people wanted to show preference, but the King had no incentive to even follow what was being said. So, they died.
however, if we actually use pseudovotes as a way to determine who actually gets lynched each day, then they have meaning again.

Wow... That's pretty deep...

[G[o]dz]

I offered to keep track of pseudo-votes on the first page - I actually did keep track (sorta) but only four pseudo-votes ever happened (prior to the last few pages).

Also, kuribo... Kamagi isn't suggesting SXTLHGaiden is a good king candidate because he's town but because he's likely to follow orders (i.e. if a majority of people want X dead - say, by pseudo-lynching X - he's going to follow that through rather than shoot his personal choice on a whim).

That said, on D1, I'm not as concerned with who should be king and who is going to be shot as I might be later in the game - I expect whoever is king to make a safe shot that, if they're scum, isn't going to make them look bad. So I think, realistically,the worst outcome D1 is that we end up with a dead town player who a decent portion of the game were likely reading incorrectly anyway, and I see this as the likely outcome regardless of what plan we end up following.

[G[o]dz]

I probably won't vote Spiffeh unless I feel good about Nachomamm8 being scum (which I currently don't and have seen not a lot of anything to suggest I'm wrong).

[G[o]dz]

Despite the fact that I didn't really have any sort of town read on Antihero (and still don't really have one), his reads weren't that far apart from mine (except that I don't think BROseidon or Skybird have done anything to warrant a town read and I don't really think zakk is scum).

[G[o]dz]

Is BROseidon scum-reading Nachomamma8?

[G[o]dz]

For comparison:

Antihero's reads in his final post appeared to be:

town: { kuribo, Fate, Nachomamma8, Skybird, KittyMo, Spiffeh, BROseidon, Axelrod, Kagami, Brian Skies }
meh: { DrippingGoofball, Katsuki, Albert B. Rampage, SXTLHGaiden, hiplop, implosion, SirCakez, camn }
scum: { zakk }

My current reads look something like:

{ kuribo, Fate, Nachomamma8, KittyMo, Spiffeh, Axelrod, Kagami, Brian Skies } { zakk } { SXTLHGaiden }
{ DrippingGoofball, Kastuki, Albert B. Rampage, hiplop, implosion, SirCakez, camn } { Skybird, BROseidon }

Where the bottom layer is people I either think are scum or don't have any sort of town read on.

Actually, I'm wavering slightly on where to put implosion/camn. Implosion because his posts feel very scripted, but I think that might just be his playstyle and I don't really have issues with what he's saying, per se, so much as how they feel to me, and camn because while she's coming across as rather loose and good-natured, there's a distinct lack of actual finding-the-scum and far too much theory posting.

[G[o]dz]

I don't really think that Kamagi's push for SXTLHGaiden to be king is (necessarily) for manipulative reasons. I think she's just looking for someone to do the people's will and SXTLHGaiden is less likely to make selfish choices than others.

That said, I do not really understand why she's pushing for Spiffeh to be king.

And I'm not sure what the whole hero business is about, but I think it's a silly thing to think about at this point in time (and I think that she should be expected to explain why she even brought it up later in the game, should she still be alive).

[G[o]dz]

These are all posts that I think BRO is more likelier to make as town than scum. As scum, he's more likely to pick apart logic and put his effort into more straightforward and understandable theories while as town he's more willing to wander down a couple of rabbit holes here and there.

There's no hard evidence here, but I haven't personally seen these types of posts when I've seen him as scum but I've seen a few decent examples of him doing it as town {Wicked, whatever that horrible game we hydraed in was}.

I don't think those posts are particularly difficult to fake as scum, even if it's not someone's normal playstyle. The whole "toxicity" thing is one I'm having a difficult time with because I don't really see why he would think something like that as town, but I could see him going down a "rabbit-hole" (kudos on the pun) in an attempt to look like he's considering things from a certain perspective. I don't have a scum read on him, but I also don't think this is anywhere near enough to call him a town read.

[G[o]dz]

I feel like you have reading comprehension issues.

[G[o]dz]

I've had a look at some of the games referenced in this. I skimmed over this "Tales" game that you say Kastuki dislikes you for. I think you calling someone else an idiot is a little hypocritical, but I'm an idiot, so what would I know?

[G[o]dz]

Nachomamma8,

Why do you think BROseidon is voting for Spiffeh?

[G[o]dz]

Because Anti seemed clearly town to me and zakk gave no reasoning for wanting to execute Anti. It's not just, "he scumread my townread he's scum".

Have you given reasoning for wanting me executed? If so, I missed it (unless your reasoning is entirely that I wanted Antihero dead, in which case lol). If not, then by this logic, anyone who thinks that I'm town should think that you're scummy, correct?

Are you going to get around to giving your top three town / scum reads and why any time soon?

[G[o]dz]

I like cupcakes, but the katsuki-fate-kuribo thing was stale.

The spiffeh wagon was a bit of inspiration that seemed superior to plan B.

Do you think Nachomamma8 is likely to flip scum?

[G[o]dz]

It saddens me that you rolled scum, Kastuki. I think we could have done great things together if you were town.

[G[o]dz]

Why are you pushing for Spiffeh to be king?

[G[o]dz]

Godz it's because of posts I've quoted earlier and then your continued posting has given me scum vibes

Which posts? And do go on.

[G[o]dz]

You've been openly buddying me while calling me scum, what am I suppose to make of that?

Buddying you? You mean because I'm voting you? Or because I'm suggesting that cupcakes are nice (which they are, I don't know how anyone could not think cupcakes are one of the greatest things in existence, it clearly shows good taste if you believe this and bad taste if you don't)?

What

are

you supposed to make of that?

[G[o]dz]

I think there is a non-zero chance of Nacho flipping scum.

Non-zero is a very nice word but ultimately means "he isn't an innocent child" and nothing else.

Do you think he's scum or not?

[G[o]dz]

His responses to others and to me do not look promising right now.

What did you dislike about how I approached you?

You answered the question and that was it. Other than the weird questioning of the Anti/Godz situation, you don't seem engaged in this game.

Elaborate on what you mean here. He has 122 posts and has been involved in more discussion and questioning than most others in the game...

[G[o]dz]

But a scum cop is likelier as the number of cops increases

Eh. Not necessarily. It entirely depends on the break-down of other roles in the setup and/or design intent. A brief look at some other setups FakeGod has run suggests he's fond of roles like masons and innocent children, so it's not like a cop is the only role one could claim that would make me wary of lynching them.

[G[o]dz]

What does that even mean?

[G[o]dz]

I haven't seen him push anyone and we are far enough into the game that it doesn't seem right.

You do know what this setup is, right? What sort of "push" are you expecting him to do in this game?

And what's wrong with asking/answering questions and how does that make him not engaged in the game?

[G[o]dz]

... You mean posts he made when he was essentially at L-1? How did you expect him to react to that?

[G[o]dz]

Welp.

UNVOTE: Kastuku
VOTE: Fate

To be honest, I would be fine with almost anyone currently voting Spiffeh being dead today. Even though I know there have to be some town players somewhere in that mix. Any town read I might have had on Kamagi evaporated rather quickly. zakk is still probably town and I don't feel all that bad about Axelrod (who is still on the Spiffeh wagon in spirit), but everyone else cannot die sooner.

It'll be funny if it turns out that Nachomamma8 is scum, but with the composition of that wagon and his play in general, I don't really see that happening right now.

[G[o]dz]

And? Other than the fact he mentioned time constraints, do you think he wouldn't do that as scum?

[G[o]dz]

If Feito-sama were to put his burning fury for all things related to the Spiffeh wagon aside, SirCakez is not an awful candidate for a bullet. And probably would have been my first choice for a bullet had the Spiffeh wagon not happened as it did.

[G[o]dz]

For the record, these are the standings currently:

Spiffeh [9] - Skybird, Kagami, hiplop, Spiffeh, BROseidon, Albert B. Rampage, zakk, Kastuki, DrippingGoofball
Fate [7] - Fate, kuribo, KittyMo, implosion, SirCakez, BrianSkies, G[o]dz

Votes don't count for shit [5] - camn, Nachomamma8, Antihero('s replacement), SXTLHGaiden, Axelrod

[G[o]dz]

I actually don't like anything about his play. His reads seem insincere and what little reasoning he's given for those reads makes very little sense.

I did consider that he could have ended Nachomamma8's life very easily today. But you also have to consider the backlash the entire Nachomamma8 wagon is going to receive if it goes through and he flips town. And, really, even if hammering isn't necessarily a scummy thing to do (though I don't know how he would have justified it), the first place most people would look after a hammer is at the person hammering.

So, yeah, he could have ended Nachomamma8 if he's scum. I don't think it would have been a wise decision.

[G[o]dz]

When I say insincere, I mean things like calling people obviously town when they really aren't and using it as a crutch to call people who disagree scummy (the former isn't as much a crime as the latter), as well as the points at which he chooses to do these things feeling slightly off. Combined with the reasoning he's given feeling pretty empty (which is the reason I asked to see his top three town/scum reads), I don't think he's genuinely forming reads. Forced is a word I don't really like using, but a lot of his play does feel forced.

And the fact that he is seemingly dodging giving the reads I requested is not making me feel any better about him.

[G[o]dz]

I've actually been digging through SirCakez games to try and find patterns that look the same as what he's done here in his town games.

Short story short, I'm still searching. If anyone with previous experience with him can point me to a game where they think he's played like he's playing now as town, that'd be super duper!

[G[o]dz]

I'm probably not going to read the full 400 posts of that game but I did read the first 100 and the entirety of the other one. I'm not really seeing the similarities I'm looking for (particularly in the way he forms reads).

If he's town, the way he's both formed reads and talked about his reads in this game isn't like anything I've found of his past town games.

[G[o]dz]

Everything above is incredibly nitpicky

What does this mean?

Using the "timeline of events" doesn't look like something town would bring up to push someone with

You don't think the order in which events happen is important, or you don't think it's something a town player would mention if they think there's an inconsistency based on the timeline?

Either way, you're wrong.

Like, where is any of this coming from?

... They were the three major candidates being discussed for the purposes of electing a king at the time.

And then I don't like this post because he's offering to voteslave himself in exchange for an Anti execution? That's not a townie offer and that's not a townie viewpoint on Anti, there's zero consideration of if he could flip town or not, just "execute him!"

Assuming I was completely serious in what I was saying, what does scum have to gain by doing that?

[G[o]dz]

Btw, fate, you're not going to be king.

I don't really see how you're going to stop it, though.

why were you voting for fate, cakez? Katsuki was likely going to lynch godz, iirc.

Kastuki was never going to shoot me. Other than the fact that I don't think he has the guts to do it even if he's scum, it would be inconsistent with how he's supposedly been reading me for the entire game, barring very recently where he seems to imply he thinks I'm doing things I'd do as scum.

[G[o]dz]

Zakk has loads of bizarre and scummy posts with next to no actual scumhunting, for example his desire to hammer Kats in 235, his expression of not caring in 238, a random unexplained Godz townread in 297, and his basically hand waving of game events in 962.

None of these things are "scummy" - at best, they're neutral.

I suppose you could argue "next to no scum hunting" is "scummy" but even then, not really (even apart from the fact he's been V/LA most of the game now).

[G[o]dz]

New dream that won't come true because people value self-importance and superficial notions of how to play over victory: SirCakez-king lynches Godz.

I wish you all the best in trying to get me killed. Frankly, I don't think you're a strong or influential enough player to get it done, but good luck nonetheless.

[G[o]dz]

Nachomamma8 probably isn't scum. And no, Kastuki, I've never once thought he was in this game.

[G[o]dz]

I am not a newbie. I'll have you know this isn't my first game on site, man-with-Pumbaa-avatar.

[G[o]dz]

The way he intervened on Anti-Hero's behalf and his efforts over multiple posts to convince Godz of the error of his ways just felt weird and off.

Why?

And then, when asked to explain why he was doing it, he said he was strongly Townreading Godz and was concerned about making Godz a more electable King in the future. Which, again, is just a weird and strange thing to say.

Why would he say that as scum if he didn't really think that's how he'd approach the game as town? i.e. He could have easily just said something like, "I think they're town and I want to stop in-fighting," or something along those lines and nobody would have batted an eye.

Ultimately, either it's something he's saying because he genuinely believes it's a good thing to do as town in this setup or it's something he's saying as scum because he genuinely believes it's a good thing to do as town in this setup.

I've never really understood this as a point against him.

Usually you don't develop super-town reads on people who are making bad/misguided attacks.

This... isn't at all true.

He also has a decided lack of scumreads.

I do not really find this concerning. Perhaps it would be in a regular setup (and even then, not so much), but this isn't exactly a regular setup. Do you think he's the sort of player who would have difficulty pretending to scum hunt as scum?

I also do not really have an issue with him qualifying his Skybird read and I don't really see why you do.

It also feels like since he's been coming under suspicion he has dramatically reduced his posting.

I don't think this is game-specific.

I also don't like his saying he won't be claiming today, and he left without answering my question of "why" he won't claim if it looks like he's the target.

I am not sure what scum motivation you think there is here. Unless you're just suggesting that he's scum saying that because he thinks it benefits him in some way?

[G[o]dz]

If Nacho gets lynched today and flips town, I'll stop posting like a newbie, I suppose. But nobody really wants that to happen.

[G[o]dz]

You have absolutely no idea which players are influential and/or have guts and/or about the amount of guts it would take to shoot you.

You're clueless.

[G[o]dz]

Wait... I've been calling you scum all game and you haven't told me I suck. I thought we had something special.

[G[o]dz]

That kind of behavior of substituting spec for content is also a bit suspect a priori.

Most people in the game were talking about the setup a lot early on - that's the kind of setup we're playing in, where that sort of thing is somewhat of a necessity. I do not think it's particularly damning that he chose to involve himself in those conversations, or at the very least, there's nothing conclusive just because he's done it as scum in another game.

If Nacho is town, scum are voting to be accountable for a town death, or voting to be non-accountable. In both cases, scum want to be on the Fate wagon (or at least off-wagon). This is also why I find it more than a little odd that Fate is calling out the Nacho wagon for being scummy, when there is little incentive for scum to be on it.

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read in a mafia game. Thank you for making my day brighter.

My guess would be the scumteam is in {skybird, implosion, brian, nacho, zakk, kittymo, godz}. Might be willing to append fate.

Scratch that. This is.

[G[o]dz]

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/nitpick

Thank you very much for teaching me what nitpicking means. I am forever in your debt.

I have one request, though. I have read the definition and see nothing in the posts that you refer to as "nitpicking" that matches the definition. Perhaps this is caused by my own ineptitude, but could you explain what nitpicking you were referring to. Thank you in advance, kind sir.

I think it's ridiculous that you went, "ha, that doesn't line up with the order of events that your read came after mine" which is incredibly incosequential and minor.

How is it inconsequential if someone says "I did X so that's not true" when they didn't do X until much later?

Let's break this down in a simple to understand analogy, for those who might not be as quick of wit as others.

Let's say we have a person named "A" (who is really smart and handsome and cool and stuff). A has a flatmate named "B" (who isn't as cool). A tells B that he doesn't like him much as a flatmate. B then picks a piece of trash off the floor and puts it in the bin a few days later. B then asks A why A said he didn't like him as a flatmate and A explains that it's because he leaves stuff lying around on the ground all the time. B calls A a liar because he picked up a single piece of trash a few days after A complained.

Do you think it's wrong of A to point out that not only was it picking up a single piece of trash but that it happened after he complained?

Do you not see an issue here?

Not that, I mean the reasoning for each read.

So you're saying that it's scummy that I didn't go into depth explaining the reads or are you saying the actual reasoning is more likely to come from scum? In both cases, explain why.

Forcing through a misexecution on a strong player and buddying.

It's like you ripped your argument straight from a wiki page. Other than the fact that whether or not he's a strong player is questionable, you miss the point entirely when I ask what scum has to gain from it. Those aren't things that scum gain if it makes them look bad from it. Why would scum need to say something like that? Have you ever seen scum say something like that (and not be thought of in a negative manner for saying it)?

It's coasting, wanting a quickhammer, vague reads, take your pick, it's definitely scummy.

Yes, all of these things that are not actually scummy are certainly very scummy. Good point, well made.

Just so we're on the same page, define scummy for me.

[G[o]dz]

My tingling for Nacho began early on in the game, I think starting from the 200s-300s if I recall. My read here is independent from the past couple games that've occurred. I have my reasons for having scumpings, and they are more personal tells than share with the class tells.

Oh. : /

For a moment, I thought you were going to pretend to be town and explain why you think Nachomamma8 is scum, rather than hint at having actual reasons that you probably don't have.

I guess I was expecting too much from you, Kastuki. : (

[G[o]dz]

Kastuki, what do you think about Cephir's points about me being town? I think he makes some strong arguments.

[G[o]dz]

Are you a muffin alt

I can't answer this question without lying to you, so I'll do you the favour of not answering it, Pumbaa.

[G[o]dz]

Btw, fate, you're not going to be king.

Spiffeh probably isn't either unless he wants to compromise on targets, which he should probably be doing right now to make it awkward for any scum on his wagon to move if his new choice is scum.

Says the scum thats afraid to die

For the record, I do not really believe that Kamagi is scum but I also do not really care if she dies with her reads the way they are (not to mention, for the reasons she's given). I think if you're trying to shoot scum, there are better options, but I don't think I'd shed a single tear at seeing her die.

[G[o]dz]

Then he explained it and the explanation didn't seem to fit the behavior.

Mm... I don't really see what he did as something that's more likely to come from scum than town. Thinking about it from the perspective of what you personally would do is generally not a good way to think about things. I think Nachomamma8 is the type of player to take a long and winding path towards his end goal rather than get directly to the point. Inefficient and unusual as it may be, I don't think this is something he's only going to do as scum (if he even bothers to do it as scum at all, because I don't know that he would). I also don't think that him not explicitly stating a town read on me while discussing with me means much.

Let's look at it from a different perspective. What do you think his aim here was if he's scum? What was he trying to achieve and why did he go about it in this way?

Okay, the thing here is, obviously you make posts as scum that you *think* you would make if you were town. Everyone tries to do that. It's the name of the game. Some people are better at it than others. So the point of "why would he say that as scum" has never resonated very well with me. I think your suggestion here, of what he might have said, makes a lot more sense, yes. That might, indeed, have looked less suspicious. But he didn't say that. And you going, well, he could have said this other thing which wouldn't have sounded as suspicious, so the fact he didn't means he's less likely to be scum is just silliness to me.

This isn't about whether or not he can emulate his town play, though. This is a basic idea about the setup itself that he thinks is something town should aim for, independent of his alignment.

Yes it is?

I mean, I fully get that you can get a town read on someone who's making a terrible case, but I do not think that's the typical situation.

Perhaps for you it isn't. But generalising across different people with different playstyles from your own, again, isn't a good way to scum hunt.

I don't know what sort of player he is. Is anyone that sort of player? i don't demand he have a fully formed comprehensive set of scum reads at all times, but if he's giving his reads and they're as weak as the ones he gave, I can take notice of that. I do think that scum are more likely to throw out a poor/lazy list of scum reads under pressure. Because they're afraid of giving something away.

He has more posts than most players in the game. Suggesting that he's afraid of giving something away is silly. If he's scum, there's a mound of interactions he's left behind already.

I don't think the fact that his scum reads are "weak" is that big a deal. This isn't the sort of game where I think any scum player would have difficulty airing seemingly-genuine gripes about half the playerlist...

I think ducking out under pressure is also scummy. Maybe it's totally just a coincidence that he disappeared right after I asked him a question and hasn't been back since. Maybe he's got IRL issues. But I have no reason to give him that benefit of the doubt. I also note that since he's stopped posting, more than one person has come to his defense here, so, were I scum, I might very well decide that not posting was actually working out better for me.

*shrug* You're not really making a point here.

[G[o]dz]

That is L-1 on Fate, FYI

[G[o]dz]

Which town player were you planning on shooting?

[G[o]dz]

Due to the unique nature of this game, I think I should be sending fakegod my reads just as a TOLD YOU SO when the regret of not voting Katsemperor seeps in.

It's kind of cheating when you already know the answers, though.

[G[o]dz]

Yeah I actually think plagiarising your role PM is the very definition of cheating

[G[o]dz]

dz post_id=7940896 time=1464039730 user_id=15399 post_num=968]Is BROseidon scum-reading Nachomamma8?

Yes.

As implied by my posting.

I missed this.

I doubt I'm going to get an answer before nightfall, but why?

[G[o]dz]

I don't really envy you having the final say in who gets shot today; there are too many people in this game that I don't have strong feelings for one way or another, and the people I most want dead right now are probably people who frequently get lynched very early on (that's not to say they aren't scum here, just that I wouldn't be shocked if they were town).

[G[o]dz]

{ kuribo, Fate, Spiffeh }
{ SXTLHGaiden, Brian Skies, Nachomamma8 }
{ KittyMo, Kamagi, implosion, Axelrod, zakk }
{ BROseidon, camn, Cephrir }
{ hiplop, DrippingGoofball, Albert B Rampage, Kastuki }
{ SirCakez, Skybird }

This is more or less how I feel about the game right now. I don't have any real feelings about order within tiers.

I haven't seen anything that would make me want to keep the very bottom tier alive. The next tier up is people who either haven't done enough or what little they've done hasn't filled me with good thoughts. The next tier up is people who I'm reserving judgment on for now until I see more. And the next tiers up are progressively stronger town reads.

[G[o]dz]

I realise that Kamagi's reasoning is awful. It doesn't stop me feeling that it's not coming from a town mindset. I might try to explain it before the thread closes.

[G[o]dz]

That it's coming from a town mindset*

[G[o]dz]

I also don't think I will ever trust Kastuki, because I actually cannot recall him ever outright claiming a town read on me in a game (like, ever), let alone that early. But I also just haven't seen anything that makes me think he's town. Some recent posts he's made have made me waver slightly, but then I wouldn't be surprised if that was by design. I'm not looking for him to be a scum hunting lord or anything since I don't expect that from him; I'm just looking for posts from him that I think are town and I've yet to see them.

[G[o]dz]

Better be quick with that Kagami defense

I don't expect it will be a defense that sways you if you're sold on her being scum. I will outline what I think of her anyway.

[G[o]dz]

He hasn't been intentionally scummy, though. At least that's not the impression I got from how he played today. He is not someone I would shoot even if given the choice. I just haven't seen anything that makes me think he's town.

[G[o]dz]

That is something I was unsure about, too. I think he wouldn't have wanted the limelight as scum because it sets him up for failure in the long run if he doesn't shoot scummates.

That said, I also don't honestly think he thought he'd get as close to being king as he did when he started and by the time it took off, I think if he is scum, he thought he was better off just rolling with it.

[G[o]dz]

Oh and I've decided that while I'm going back over Kamagi's posts, I may as well post my thoughts in small bunches, just in case FakeGod comes online sooner than expected. I don't even trust my opinions on her posts as much as I wish I did, but I'll write what I was thinking at each of the points of the game day.

159 is the first post from her that made me lean slightly town on her. Up until that point, she'd be doing things I would expect her to do as pretty much either alignment. This post is one I'm not so sure she would make as scum. I

think

she has some sort of role-related reason to believe there's a super-saint-esque role in the game, but this didn't look like a "look at me, I'm helping out" post you'd see from scum revealing information (the "which is why..." part being somewhat cheeky is a large part of what I like about it). Granted, she became more and more flagrant about bringing attention to it as time went on, but this was my initial impression of the post at the time it was made.

I do think that her being concerned about the game-state at the point she started campaigning for herself-then-SXTLHGaiden-then-Spiffeh-King was probably not coming from a scum mindset. The caveat here is that, if she is scum, she was doing it because her buddies are not (/were not) seen in a very good light. But I do think she would have been more suggestive and less authorative-sounding in proposing a plan if she were scum, regardless - I can't really explain why I think this except that I do; I just think she'd be more meek as scum. There are also little things that happened around this time which I think seemed mildly town. For example, I didn't mind what she said about Nachomamma8 in 839 - I don't think this was really a strong enough reason to think Nachomamma8 is scum on its lonesome, but I do think it looks like genuine concern for the way Nachomamma8 was acting about it. I also didn't mind the honesty in 848, which shows a kind of arrogance I'm not sure she'd have as scum.

Note

: I may be way off with my impression of what she's like as scum. These are just things I thought at the time.

[G[o]dz]

The fact that Kagami wanted a UNIVERSALLY READ TOWN PLAYER to be King

WITH the supposed knowledge that there are supersaints in the game makes it even worse.

If Kagami is a scum supersaint I better have a damn good blaze fo glory lynch flavor scene, FakeGod

I don't know what this is referring to, but I think she recanted on the idea of a super-saint-esque role being likely some time ago. Which, actually, was something that I also didn't mind about her posts. Because if it was a planned sort of "hehe, I'm hinting at information to seem helpful" thing, then retracting it doesn't make a lot of sense.

[G[o]dz]

Actually, no, I'm apparently remembering that incorrectly so disregard the above post. She mentioned being doubly certain heroes exist. Which changes my opinion on the chain of events that happened pretty drastically... I actually don't know why she was so adamant about Spiffeh being king unless she doesn't have a strong town-read on him.

[G[o]dz]

On review, I'm doubly certain that hero(s) exist. The best course is to choose a victim and elect a king to execute them in some order.

Anyone supporting the current "elect someone who we think is town and let them do whatever" is a fool, or is scum who believes that it is unlikely that the current candidates will lynch a partner.

The only objection that makes any sense is a logistical one, but that only exists because of a lack of support, which should be viewed as extremely suspicious.

When I read this the first time, I thought it said "doubt" instead of "doubly" and I read the sentence in a completely different light.

[G[o]dz]

Spiffeh wagon was a stroke of brilliance, and I'm still patting myself on the back for that one.

*pat pat*

I thought this was a town post the first time I read it. It looked like town elated at the fact that she'd changed the flow of the game in a way that she thought broke the game open a little more. I didn't think this looked like scum bragging.

I really, really, really am not sure what to make of the whole situation with regards to the "scum are likely to be off the Spiffeh wagon", which is so utterly ridiculous in my mind that I actually don't have words for how utterly ridiculous I think it is. It's so far removed from reality it's not funny. And I really hate the fact that I think this, but I honestly want to think that she's better than that as scum; that she's just lost in some warped logic that she genuinely thinks makes sense rather than that she's scum who honestly thinks she can get away with making statements on that level and making other statements that are so internally inconsistent that she gets flak for things like she's currently getting flak for.

[G[o]dz]

The whole "accountable vs not accountable" thing is definitely a post I could see her making if she is genuinely stuck in a mire of not-so-great logic - e.g. if she's not thinking about it from the perspective of certainty vs uncertainty because she's not actually scum.

I don't know. I came out of this even less sure about her than I wanted to be. There's just so many holes in her play here that I want to think they're holes she's making because she's not thinking straight rather than because she's scum hoping people overlook things.

And I don't think the personality she's displayed in this game is the personality she'd display as scum.

But I acknowledge that there's a lot of bad stuff about her play. So I ended up building this nice fence and now there's a picket firmly planted in my anus. My mind's telling me scum... But my body... My body's telling me no.

[G[o]dz]

That is where I ended up, too, with the same nagging feeling of, "it ain't that easy."

[G[o]dz]

I just want to imagine that her scum play is far more elegant than this.

I don't think I will get over the feeling that it

is

possible that the inconsistencies are coming from town who's made a few unfounded logical leaps rather than scum who's just throwing things out without considering the consequences.

[G[o]dz]

skybird

She mentioned not liking Skybird. When someone asked who she wanted to execute (before the Spiffeh wagon happened), she mentioned Skybird as her first choice (mention that Skybird was high on her list despite Antihero's Skybird read).

[G[o]dz]

I will say this. Even if Kamagi is scum, I would feel better about shooting someone else today and seeing what she does tomorrow. I would feel guilty if the shot hit town and she is scum, but I would prefer that to her being town and being shot D1.

But I am a cowardly coward, and that is why I would rather not be king.

And I also don't know what I'm expecting to change if she lives to D2 that would convince me she's not scum. I am just bracing for a town flip but hoping for a scum flip.

[G[o]dz]

I don't know if a break in the melody is more likely to come from scum than town, though. Why did Kamagi-scum change tune? The only answer I can think of is if she felt her team was in danger at that point for some reason.

Hiplop is in the same tier as DGB and ABR, for me. What little I've seen I didn't like but I've seen to little to get a firm read.

[G[o]dz]

I do think hiplop is the sort to lurk as scum. I don't think he's the most active town player, but I do think he's the sort to at least try to be involved on some level.

[G[o]dz]

The entire inconsistency with who she wants as king + super-saint-esque roles just continues to make me less sure she's scum, not more sure. I just have a lot of trouble swallowing that she wouldn't realise people would look at that and go, "hang on a minute..." and if she wasn't concerned about looking bad because of it then I don't really know what to say - she'd have to be unusually cocky scum to think she can pull it off.

[G[o]dz]

Not that it's impossible for scum to ever think they can pull something ridiculous like that off; just that I don't categorise her as the sort of player to think she can say the things she's said in this game and not get called out on it. Which means she probably has some reason she thinks it actually does make sense.

Like, back to the melody breaking... She must have thought the game was turning sour fast to even begin to think she needed to start pulling stuff like this as scum. I just don't really get it. Either her scum team was falling apart at the time (which is useful to look at if she IS actually scum) or she was doing it because what? She thought it would benefit her as scum in some way? Why?

[G[o]dz]

We've all done dumb / incoherent / suboptimal / contradictory things as scum

I... I can honestly say I don't think I've ever done anything like that as scum ever, and nowhere near on that level if I have. Actually, I think the worst things I've done as scum are things you wouldn't even recognise as big mistakes if you didn't know I was scum.

I am the sort of scum player who plans out every post - I have a good enough memory that I don't need to worry so much about internal consistencies, but I also make sure to think pretty carefully about how any post I make is going to be perceived by my audience.

I picture Kamagi as a scum player with a similar~ish nature.

[G[o]dz]

The worst mistake I've ever made in a game as scum is miscounting votes. A perfectly timed and executed quick-hammer, co-ordinated via daytalk... that ended up leaving the person at L-1. I got away with it, somehow... A mistake I will never make again.

That said, nothing like saying "I think town should do X" then doing Y the next moment. Or anything like this game with Kamagi.

[G[o]dz]

Actually, I also "lurked" as an anti-meta strategy one time, thinking I was very clever gaming the people who expected something more than that from me as scum. Then I ended up getting lynched for it. Not my brightest moment.

[G[o]dz]

I think I talked about this at some point, maybe. Or at least I thought it.

There's a distinct lack of scum hunting from her that makes me hesitant to put her anywhere near a town read, despite thinking that the way she's handled herself has felt rather loose and relaxed (which is something I more or less attribute to town more than scum) and I didn't mind so much the way she was thinking about the setup early on (even if I feel it ultimately wasn't alignment-indicative). I don't know how much of her non-content to attribute to her, say, really liking the player list and getting caught up in the atmosphere of interacting with certain people. Or whether it's just how she normally plays.

Or I may just have overlooked or forgotten about the parts where she was actually scum-hunting. I am apparently prone to doing that.

[G[o]dz]

Side note: I fully expect scum to shoot one of the people posting in twilight right now. And I fully expect that, if I die, it will not be because of my reads, but because I am not as likely a target for protection (I may or may not be on the right track with reads, it probably isn't relevant to who scum kills tonight and nobody should assume it is).

[G[o]dz]

I do read Spiffeh as town which is why I voted him in the first place and I am still town reading him

You had a town read on him for his first 5 posts?

[G[o]dz]

If I were a power role, I would have targeted [dicerollplayer], and my result was [coinflipresult] or [diceroll2player]

[G[o]dz]

Does hypo-claiming results actually matter since the only ones left are random and the shit ones?

[G[o]dz]

Right... Well, whatever. If I were a cop, I'd have a guilty on Pumbaa.

I spent last night thinking that I want SirCakez dead more than anyone in the game and that I was probably wrong about at least one of my town reads.

[G[o]dz]

I'm going to guess I know who the masons are. And it's probably a good idea to shoot outside the Spiffeh wagon today - outside of maybe Kastuki, I don't really see anyone there that I think would likely bus in the way it happened.

If I weren't already biased towards SirCakez, I would think SirCakez is scum, but that's only because I was paying close attention to the way he was talking about certain things, Nacho being one of those things. I need to read what others were saying about it.

[G[o]dz]

Probably not implosion.

[G[o]dz]

Maybe not kittymo or brian either

Quite possibly camn

(Almost certainly sircakez)

[G[o]dz]

nacho's interactions with implosion about that (plus implosion's later reaction to people calling nacho scum) are actually a big part of why i don't think implosion

[G[o]dz]

I don't really think the things he was doing with nacho at the beginning of the game were scum-scum. It wouldn't be a maybe if it were a stronger feeling.

[G[o]dz]

What were the non-scum-scum things? Going through the iso again,the early nacho interactions aren't exactly town-inspiring.

Are you just ctrl+Fing nacho in his ISO? Because the majority of the first 20 or so pages of his posts are directed at Nacho, FYI.

It's not impossible that it comes from scum, I just don't really think it was scum theatre.

[G[o]dz]

How would you describe what happened on page 9? Do you think that was the two of them spending a page fake-arguing with each other? Granted, it was early times and that wasn't an impossible conversation for scum to have at that point, I just didn't get the impression that Brian's responses to Nacho were coming from scum putting on an act.

[G[o]dz]

Brian's late day behavior is best characterized as ripping at the spiffeh wagon without directly saying anything about nacho

I don't think this is something scum is more likely to do...

[G[o]dz]

It depends on what their aim was.

If their aim was to try to derail it, then just calling the composition shit without saying nacho seems town isn't going to do much (since when has that ever stopped a wagon going through?).

If their aim was to not support it but have a counter-plan if it went through, then either softly supporting it but never voting it or making others seem like they're connected with Nacho.

If their aim was something else altogether, then I don't know. But I don't really see scum thinking it's a good idea to try to derail the wagon without talking about Nacho. It may have happened, but I don't think it's more likely to come from scum.

[G[o]dz]

[o], why were you so confident on nacho being town? Or at least, why were you so set against going against the wave of Fate/Kats/camn/kuribo?

I didn't really see him wasting so much time on trying to convince me Antihero was town as scum. It just seems rather pointless, and the way yesterday played out given what he was doing just proves that... I don't know what he was trying to achieve in this game, and someone seemingly having no aim is generally something I think of as a town trait. *shrug*

[G[o]dz]

Also the reason I said quite possibly camn is because she displayed the behaviour I mentioned in the third paragraph of 1402. The whole "haha I think nacho is scum but I don't want the day to end" thing felt weird at the time and feels weirder in light of the flip.

[G[o]dz]

dz post_id=7951626 time=1464361835 user_id=15399 post_num=1395]How would you describe what happened on page 9? Do you think that was the two of them spending a page fake-arguing with each other? Granted, it was early times and that wasn't an impossible conversation for scum to have at that point, I just didn't get the impression that Brian's responses to Nacho were coming from scum putting on an act.

I've played a game with scumcho where we (as the scum team) made an entire page of only scum posting.

He's more than capable of setting something like that up, especially if scum have daytalk.

It is not that scum can't do that, I was asking whether or not Kamagi thought this was an instance of it happening. Because I didn't see it like that.

[G[o]dz]

Side note: If SirCakez is scum, I also think that makes Brian less likely to be scum

[G[o]dz]

Any PGO who didn't claim in a game that's basically has its own little dethy going on is dumb or scum.

[G[o]dz]

Nacho did. And there was literally no reason to reveal that. Good one.

[G[o]dz]

dz post_id=7951700 time=1464364080 user_id=15399 post_num=1425]Nacho did. And there was literally no reason to reveal that. Good one.

You don't think there was reason to reveal that? Why not?

If you rolecopped me and you're vying to be king anyway, then there's no reason to reveal I'm a hero publicly. It ruins any chance I may have had of pulling off some late-game gambit and gains you what? Bragging rights because you predicted a role in the setup correctly? Yay for you.

[G[o]dz]

Why did this upset you, godz?

I don't think you can read tone well.

[G[o]dz]

You do realise that was basically a taunt, right? Like, "go ahead and try it."

[G[o]dz]

I didn't think you were suggesting it assuming I was a hero, thus the response.

[G[o]dz]

By the way, what happened at the time iirc is that SirCakez had just made some response to me and I read that as you thinking SirCakez was town and making good points about me... Which, other than making me roll my eyes, caused that in response.

[G[o]dz]

Making SirCakez king if he's scum would be pretty dumb. He's just going to choose not to shoot me. Granted, that would confirm him as scum but it also means having to waste an extra shot on him tomorrow while he gets free rein today. You would essentially be giving scum a free extra kill on whoever they want, with little-to-no chance of protection.

[G[o]dz]

I wouldn't rely on there being an unlimited vig in this game.

[G[o]dz]

To be clear, sircakez, you're saying you still think I'm scum for those posts you quoted at the very beginning of the game and your read hasn't strengthened or decayed in any way based on the last 200 or so posts I've made?