Mini Normal 1825 - Game Over

[House]

Hello all.

<3 Pi

[House]

(one mentioned example, expressing suspicion of Naomi-Tan in 88 for mentioning Daytalk, works well as an illustration of what I mean--I would expect a Mafia player to actually check how Naomi-Tan knew this information before making the vote).

Why would a newbie mafia ask town how they knew the information when they already know that town can't know it except by the op since that player is not scum?

Experienced scum might be more likely to ask, in order to cover their own ass, but newbscum are more prone to tripping up on their own knowledge.

[House]

Hi House.

<3 You too but this post gives me the creeps.

Alrighty then.

[House]

Besides playstle, communication, logic, arguments made, associations, and just plain gut feeling which isn’t reliable, what are you supposed to look for that I am not getting?

Motive.

Are reads, however terrible, sincere? Do they change organically? Does the player stand to personally gain from shifting their stance?

These are all much more reliable indicators of scum than "tells".

Anything scum can do, town can do better.
Anything town can do, scum can do too.

[House]

Personal gain isn't always indicative of scum though. It is indicative of personal gain. It becomes whether than gain is Town PR oriented or Scum oriented and is usually the latter but sometimes the former.

Town players can be scummy and scummy players can be townie. It is one of the reasons I setup spec a lot because if you know certain things exist eg I am a VT then that influences votes.

Refer to the first word in the past you are responding to.

You basically said the same thing I did. Thanks.

[House]

Personal gain isn't always indicative of scum though. It is indicative of personal gain. It becomes whether than gain is Town PR oriented or Scum oriented and is usually the latter but sometimes the former.

Town players can be scummy and scummy players can be townie. It is one of the reasons I setup spec a lot because if you know certain things exist eg I am a VT then that influences votes.

Refer to the first word in the

past

post you are responding to.

You basically said the same thing I did. Thanks.

EBWOP

[House]

MathBlade, since you're around where should I start ISOing for a decent bead on things? Reading 75+ pages ain't happening. You know me.

[House]

BBT and RB especially the recent fight. One of which I think is town and the other scum.

Also ISO chuck for my sanity. My towndar is going off miles on him so much so it is approaching I am scared of buddying territory.

Lastly Experience is probably scum.

I really wish you would stop not reading on replace in though.

I'm trying, really i am. 75 pages, though?

I'll look into those three and your slot, then work backwards from there.

Thanks!

[House]

Lol 4 and me. Boo House cmon and count.

BBT RB Chuck Expedience.

Math is your shtick. Not mine. I can only count to purple.

[House]

And before I start reading ISOs, I want it known for the record that BBT is probscum because he's in the game.

[House]

Ryan. It's weird. Makes me want to lynch Ryan more, just to see what he flips.
And Martha: Expedience starts attacking Martha, but then decides she is completely town and defends her a lot too.

Then he goes after me, but denies my association with Martha

- protecting Martha again.

Ran across this post during my cross-ISO of Cass while reading up on BBT.

Cass, please explain the bolded. Who are you suspecting of scum in that scenario? Ryan? Martha? Ryan and Martha both? Yourself and Ryan? Because it reads like the last.

[House]

This large wagon swing makes me feel like scum were definitely in on it, even if not necessarily leading it.

I agree with Glitch however, that if he flips town, Expedience looks more town due to the claim duel thing.

That makes me suspect that either/both of RyanK and Martha Zolanski would be the scum he was a counter wagon to.

The fact that he was mostly gone during his wagon's growth is also a deciding factor in that it was a bad wagon.

It's disappointing that you guys didn't at least wait until I got back. Pushing through a wagon on the weekend is bad form even when people haven't announced V/LA.

This is immediately after Glitch was hammered. I feel like this post is expecting Glitch to flip town because it only overs scenarios where this is the case. like he starts with "if he flips town" then devolves into outright assumption

It's unreasonable for town!Chuck to presume a town flip here, his post where he realized he wa hammered actually looked like a scumclaim to me (since it showed his aim was survival (however his play before that was pretty town and made my heart sink reading it)). Chuck never took a stance on Glitch, just let it happen and then tried to set up new pushes afterwards, but he did it slightly too prematurely.

The CLAIM DUEL thing is something that happened a while ago, Glitch didn't really bring anything revelatory to light there. Chuck could've made his own evaluation of the CLAIM DUEL when he made that post about how oddly interested he was in the claims of two town members. This is a really unnatural progression and shows that he didn't really believe all the crap he was throwing at me before. All the suspicion on me is completely gone! It's probably because he mistakenly thought I was a PR (and didn't notice that Martha was one?).

VOTE: Chuck

So you're voting Chuck, who dropped his suspicion of you because he thought you were a PR, and killed Martha, who WAS a PR... that he didn't notice was one?

Please explain, I'm confused as shit.

[House]

Saru, Dierfire, pitoli, and Cass, what do you think about:

1. MathBlade?
2. rb vs. BBT?
3. Expedience?

House, answer these too please.

In due time.

Thanks for replacing in btw. Good to see a familiar face.

(...since I've seen the show, not since I know you. Ha... It was funny to me, shut up)

[House]

VC 1.15

Martha Zolanski (5)

: Cass, pitoli, Expedience, rb, RyanK

VC 1.39

Glitch (7)

: Expedience, rb, gameplay506, Martha Zolanski, Dierfire, BlueBloodedToffee, pitoli

Putting these here for when I have the time to look into them.

I really feel like both of these VCs point towards rb being scum.

Why just rb? Why not Expedience?

[House]

Empty null is usually exactly where scum sit.

Generalizations are always wrong.


cwutididthar?

[House]

VC 1.13

Dierfire (5)

: Saru, golden009, rb, Cass, Martha Zolanski

VC 1.15

Martha Zolanski (5)

: Cass, pitoli, Expedience, rb, RyanK

Want these in my ISO so I remember to look over them.

That was a quick transition.

Yes, that is an interesting part. We were on Dierfire, then he made a decent post, then I made a case on martha (489), Pitoli & Golden vaguely sheeped me but without voting. Martha defends against my case and her and me get into a fight that's mostly misunderstandings and language-issues, I think (it's pretty unreadable, I apologize for my part in that). Then Pitoli (497) notes that Martha's and my posts 'synch up', and we could be following eachother onto wagons. (Note when ISO-ing: Martha here increases the confusion by posting a few times with and ALT account, keyenpeydee.)
Now Pitoli votes Martha, and Martha votes Ryan. Rb likes Dierfire's post and joins the Martha wagon, starts pushing it, as does Pitoli. Now Expedience (replaced Naomi) joins the wagon, but still thinks Dierfire is scum too. (

509 - This one reinforces my scumread on Expedience.

) Rb feels the wagon is going too fast now, too easy (

I can see what he means...

) and unvotes Martha (also calls Saru, Pitoli and Golden town). Expedience attacks Martha and defends Ryan. Based on this - I think because he's somehow reassured that Expedience is town (

unlike me

) -, rb revotes Martha(523.
(

Off topic: Post 528 makes me wonder if I could be wrong about gameplay; could he be Expedience's partner?

)
Now Martha says she can't defend herself because there are 'scums' on her wagon (wagon is now (4): Cass, pitoli, Expedience, rb). Martha starts to panic, suggests self-hammering, calls her own wagon good, etc. Now Ryan joins the wagon (

can't blame him, really

), making it L-2.

We are now at 550 (the second vote-count). What happens right after this is also interesting. The wagon weakens, as Ryan and Expedience back off. (

Omg, expedience looks so scummy doing that.

)
Then in 578 with just 3 votes on her, Martha soft-claims (maybe explaining the earlier panic?). After that, almost everyone (including me) backs off.

I think I'm going to be reading 475-550 during night phase for entertainment value alone.

[House]

No, because the amount of white noise that town is producing is insane.

SO MUCH THIS! I cannot emphasize how much more difficult town are making this game. It's almost impossible to gain reads because of the amount of bullshit that is going on.

People need to post less and when they do post, post more content because this game is an absolute joke right now.

After the way you entered the game, you have the stones to say this?

[House]

Yeah. Here's why.

That post assumes I am town, does it not? If you ISO me before that post, I had posted NOTHING of content. My predecessor hadn't even posted so I don't know why the hell rb is assuming I am town in that post.

Compare it to this post later on;

Hey BlueBloodedToffee if you're town can you just come demolish this scumlord with me? Thanks.

I really hope BBT is town because if he is we win.

And the first one could be a legit slip.

That's actually a good point. A really good point.

[House]

Okay so it's TvT, let's assume we're right and dese fights are generally TvT. That means the town we can bet on are:

Chuck
Expedience
Saru
rb
gameplay

We lynch from outside that pool?

Why would you not think of yourself first when listing town, if you are town?

As the next to last name in your own list of "town we can bet on", you look like you added your name in almost as an afterthought.

[House]

People will sheep my because I'm BBT though.

You know this.

I loled my pants.

[House]

Meta'ing people of a single game is also poor scum hunting.

Poor, yes. But proof of scum?

Does town not engage in "poor scum hunting"?

[House]

Your town read on Math is pretty important because it made you abandon the largest wagon in the game to vote WITH a previous scum read.

So yeah, it's kind of important.

Valid point, I can see where BBT is coming from here.

[House]

Nah, what's important is that you explain your scumread on Math.

Also stop trying to misrep and throw shade already. Golden was an early-game TOWNREAD for me, but their disappearance once their slot was out of focus looked scummy, they just went off the map. Math's entrance is game-solving and townlike. So I'm fine with putting Golden as town since they were a compromise lynch. Town BBT is smart enough to understand this.

Ah, right on then. Fair enough.

[House]

Man, I really want rb to be town so I can gloat post-game.

We should lynch Math. He is scum.

PEdit - Nah.

Wait...

rb is a scumread of yours... but you want him to be town... so you can gloat... about being wrong?

idontgetit

[House]

Man, I really want rb to be town so I can gloat post-game.

We should lynch Math. He is scum.

PEdit - Nah.

Oh boy, where have I seen this one before

Remember when you were scum telling me how sorry I'd be for mislynching you? Then you flipped scum. Also I still don't think you realise even if you flipped town I still would have said it was your own shitty play that got you lynched. I have zero sympathy for players who get mislynched as town, it's their own fault.

You're being scummy as fuck right now and if you're town you can blame your own shit play, nothing else.

Tempted to vote rb for this shit post alone.

[House]

Saru, Dierfire, pitoli, and Cass, what do you think about:

1. MathBlade?
2. rb vs. BBT?
3. Expedience?

House, answer these too please.

Thanks for replacing in btw. Good to see a familiar face.

#2 - This round goes to BBT... which is surprising, considering I wanted him to be scum. rb's jump on him for meta, then later ignoring of BBT's counter-meta that refutes those meta accusations, is just all kinds of slimy.

(...since I've seen the show, not since I know you. Ha... It was funny to me, shut up)

[House]

Saru, Dierfire, pitoli, and Cass, what do you think about:

1. MathBlade?
2. rb vs. BBT?
3. Expedience?

House, answer these too please.

Thanks for replacing in btw. Good to see a familiar face.

#2 - This round goes to BBT... which is surprising, considering I wanted him to be scum. rb's jump on him for meta, then later ignoring of BBT's counter-meta that refutes those meta accusations, is just all kinds of slimy.

Fix't

[House]

I don't like that he's not answering my questions or explaining reads.

So?

I have experience with town!BBT doing exactly that, and I do as well.

Not that I have any particular feels for BBT, but when somebody starts badmouthing a playstyle that I share as scummy when I do the same exact things as town too, I'm going to speak up about it because condemning somebody because you don't like their playstyle is facile.

[House]

@Chuck

I think that you may have missed some of my questions to you:

@Chuck

You are reading gameplay506 as Town (945). Why?

@Chuck

I agreed with your thought in 1364 that the "claim duel" looked unlikely from a Mafia player given that Glitch flipped Town, so I was surprised that you reconsidered in 1470. Why would Expedience do that as Mafia?

Also, I noticed that I'd missed some of your questions to me--my apologies!

Saru, Dierfire, pitoli, and Cass, what do you think about:

1. MathBlade?
2. rb vs. BBT?
3. Expedience?

1. I want to discuss things more with MathBlade, but I suspect that I will end up reading her as Town for reasons that I will discuss afterward.
2. I'm still reading rb as Town. Nothing that BBT said made me especially suspicious, but I don't like that he's not answering my questions or explaining reads. So, if I were to choose one to lynch, it would be BBT.
3. I'm still reading Expedience as Town. I read your 1470 but am unconvinced. Among other things: if Expedience is Mafia and killed Martha so as to set up RyanK to be lynched, why does Expedience never vote for RyanK, or claim to be suspicious of RyanK? It seems strange to me that a Mafia player would create a plan of this specificity (set up RyanK, specifically) but leave the detail work to Town. In fact, I'm not sure that RyanK received a single vote this phase.

Assume RB is scum.

Who is scum with him?

Repeat for BBT Expedience and Saru.

Why would you ask someone to assume that after 1831?

[House]

You have the charisma of a slug

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/20 ... arisma5558

Slugs are one of the most charismatic animals ever.

rb - 1
gamescrub - 0

Ok... I loled.

[House]

Reads:

Naomi
Pitoli
golden009

gameplay
ryan
martha

dierfire

Scum is pink because red is mod colour.

Anyone not included I have to re-read.

So, gameplay looks to be in the null category, along with ryan and martha under him... presumably making gameplay slightly more town. But..

Like I said Naomi's post WAS bad. Gameplay is being sketchy af and Dierfire's sheeping and reasoning for sheeping is awful.

Going from Naomi to being suspicious of gameplay's style of discrediting the most vocal player in the game, not even trying to ascertain my motives and instead just jumping straight to 'rb is butthurt bad player' is really gross from a player who's apparently decent and/or experienced. Dierfire's vote WAS terrible.

Golden009 picked up on all the important thing I'd expect a town player to have picked up on upon entering and reading this thread. They're town for now.

p-edit: @Naomi: you do realise that all Dierfire did in his post 131 is throw a bunch of shade and then fence-sit?

"I don't mind the reactions", "I don't like this, but it's mitigated by...."

Dierfire is doing literally nothing in this game, they're not solving it by a longshot. If they're town, they're a townbeard. If they're scum, they're buddying. Neither one is favourable.

~

Yes NAI is Non-Alignment Indicative.

No mention of ryan or martha when you're explaining your reads, which list gameplay as "sketchy af", when ryan and martha are listed below gameplay? Why?

[House]

Unlikely scumpartners:

Gameplay/Ryan
Martha/Gameplay
Cass/Dierfire
Martha/Dierfire
Cass/Martha

Explain? Curious how you got these specifically.

Ryan is like Gameplay's only target today. Ryan wasn't hesitant to vote Gameplay at all.
Martha was willing to ride Gameplay to lynch. Gameplay scumreads Martha.
Feels like both Cass/Martha are willing to lynch Dierfire. Pretty sure Dierfire wanted one of these lynched.
Cass/Martha interactions look genuine, doesn't seem Scum vs. Scum to me at all.

I'm less sure about the Dierfire ones now because they've just ended up on Golden. This stuff changes as the game goes on but I think that regardless of what happens gameplay/Ryan would be unlikely scumbuddies. If one of them flips scum the other is basically conftown imo. The others aren't nearly that strong. Also I do make sure to look for distancing type behaviours - honestly Glitch on Chuck looks like that. He gets on the same wagon as Chuck but he's like, "I can't really sort you Chuck help me dude" - that's scummy as fuck forced interaction from my POV.

Also I'm fairly happy with those non-scumbuddy combinations because Cass is a strong townread so it makes sense that she's there twice. Martha/Dierfire are townlean, Ryan is townread. Gameplay is only scumread there, along with Glitch. But he hasn't interacted enough to say who would or wouldn't be a scumbuddy.

I really like this post. It limits his options and locks him into stances that scum would normally avoid doing.

[House]

Unlikely scumpartners:

Gameplay/Ryan
Martha/Gameplay
Cass/Dierfire
Martha/Dierfire
Cass/Martha

Explain? Curious how you got these specifically.

Ryan is like Gameplay's only target today. Ryan wasn't hesitant to vote Gameplay at all.
Martha was willing to ride Gameplay to lynch. Gameplay scumreads Martha.
Feels like both Cass/Martha are willing to lynch Dierfire. Pretty sure Dierfire wanted one of these lynched.
Cass/Martha interactions look genuine, doesn't seem Scum vs. Scum to me at all.

I'm less sure about the Dierfire ones now because they've just ended up on Golden. This stuff changes as the game goes on but I think that regardless of what happens gameplay/Ryan would be unlikely scumbuddies. If one of them flips scum the other is basically conftown imo. The others aren't nearly that strong. Also I do make sure to look for distancing type behaviours - honestly Glitch on Chuck looks like that. He gets on the same wagon as Chuck but he's like, "I can't really sort you Chuck help me dude" - that's scummy as fuck forced interaction from my POV.

Also I'm fairly happy with those non-scumbuddy combinations because Cass is a strong townread so it makes sense that she's there twice. Martha/Dierfire are townlean, Ryan is townread. Gameplay is only scumread there, along with Glitch. But he hasn't interacted enough to say who would or wouldn't be a scumbuddy.

I really like this post. It limits his options and locks him into stances that scum would normally avoid doing.

Also rb, I notice you didn't list Cass/gameplay (me) as unlikely scumbuddies. Oversight, or is that a possible association in your theory?

[House]

And do Ryan's hypothetical scumpartners let him continue playing like this all game even when there's daychat? He's a new player, he'd ask for advice right? His partners would attempt to assist him, right?

He keeps getting scumread for the shit he's doing, but he still does it anyway, right? Why? If he was scum, he'd try to do something differently or find a way of playing that didn't get him scumread by like the entire fkn game. Unless he's just some godlike-reverse-psychology-super-god at mafia, he's not scum. It's his SECOND GAME...of course he's bad - and bad play is bad play regardless of alignment. Good play looks pretty much the same as either alignment since good play = convincing town to lynch your targets and getting townreads. The only difference is you're ideally lynching scum as town, but even good town make mistakes.

A bad player will look bad no matter what alignment they are, so if the argument is Ryan is bad and therefore scum? Nope. Not going there. Find why Ryan is scum for being scum, not scum for being bad. This wagon is a massive red flag from my POV.

#goodposting

[House]

This is like the 10th time I've had scum do exactly what Gameplay is doing. He has no real case. His game has been weak and nothing, but he pretends like he's mortally offended by me or something and that I'm "disgusting" when he goes around calling people Village Idiot, terrible etc.

The point here not being that he said those things, it's that he's obviously a person with some edge - not some limpwristed pansy who runs away from a bit of conflict in a thread. Conflict which revolves around me scumreading him, I haven't even made any personal insults but he's running away tail tucked between his legs. Gameplay is scum. Book it.

Having some insight on the matter, I have to say your reasoning is flawed. If Ryan can be bad!town, why can't gameplay?

Having mislynched them before myself, I can kinda understand the urge, but I find it odd that you would defend Ryan (though I like the way you do so because of the insight you provided), yet condemn gameplay.

Was it because he was tunneling you and the ad hom attacks?

[House]

For him to pull off this act (if it was an act) of reverse-psychology-scumlord would require him to actually be really, really good at the game. Good enough to be capable of recognizing what is and isn't a useful thing to say and to consistently keep up this persona, even through high pressure (he's at L-2) and to continuously be able to come up with enough material to keep himself in that range of never actually contributing that much but also still being coherently incoherent. RyanK is the most obvious town that ever obvious towned.

Careful making such assumptions. I was in a game not that long ago where the newbtown read blazed to a glorious victory for her scum team.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=67031

[House]

House what are you feeling right now?

After reviewing BBT's ISO, he feels town. I'm halfway through rb's and I have found content that both pleases and disturbs me. I'm not nearly as intent on scumreading him as I was when I started the ISO, but I remain uneasy with giving him a townread. Still more reading to do on him, we'll see how that ends.

[House]

Spoiler: Not Really Game Related

Like Dierfire has nearly triple your posts and up until this point you've barely posted. You have like 5 posts in a few hours, but for the other 2 weeks of gametime you've had 12.

So fuck off with this, "Dierfire must be lurkerscum if I am by your own definition!" you dickhead, because Dierfire's lurkiness is not even in the same fucking solar system as what yours has been.

I understood when you got upset over the ad hom attacks against you, but what I don't understand is why you'd do the same to someone else when those attacks offend you. Seems kinda double-standardish... NAI, because I'm sure it's just a personality thing... just saying...

[House]

@Mathblade

Spoiler: Not Game Related

Emotionally what are you feeling?

This is a strange avenue for such a question, but numb. I mean, it's cool to be in a game with some familiar faces, but my overall estimation of this site has been severely compromised for reasons that aren't worth dragging a game down over.

[House]

This large wagon swing makes me feel like scum were definitely in on it, even if not necessarily leading it.

I agree with Glitch however, that if he flips town, Expedience looks more town due to the claim duel thing.

That makes me suspect that either/both of RyanK and Martha Zolanski would be the scum he was a counter wagon to.

The fact that he was mostly gone during his wagon's growth is also a deciding factor in that it was a bad wagon.

It's disappointing that you guys didn't at least wait until I got back. Pushing through a wagon on the weekend is bad form even when people haven't announced V/LA.

This is immediately after Glitch was hammered. I feel like this post is expecting Glitch to flip town because it only overs scenarios where this is the case. like he starts with "if he flips town" then devolves into outright assumption

It's unreasonable for town!Chuck to presume a town flip here, his post where he realized he wa hammered actually looked like a scumclaim to me (since it showed his aim was survival (however his play before that was pretty town and made my heart sink reading it)). Chuck never took a stance on Glitch, just let it happen and then tried to set up new pushes afterwards, but he did it slightly too prematurely.

The CLAIM DUEL thing is something that happened a while ago, Glitch didn't really bring anything revelatory to light there. Chuck could've made his own evaluation of the CLAIM DUEL when he made that post about how oddly interested he was in the claims of two town members. This is a really unnatural progression and shows that he didn't really believe all the crap he was throwing at me before. All the suspicion on me is completely gone! It's probably because he mistakenly thought I was a PR (and didn't notice that Martha was one?).

VOTE: Chuck

So you're voting Chuck, who dropped his suspicion of you because he thought you were a PR, and killed Martha, who WAS a PR... that he didn't notice was one?

Please explain, I'm confused as shit.

Yes, that's what I wrote.

On second thought, it's more likely that he backed down because he thought I wouldn't get lynched, or scumread Martha because wanted to look town for scumreading the guy who got killed, and whether or not we were PRs had nothing to do with it. I don't think it really matters but at the time I was anxious to work things out.

Scumreading the guy that got killed wouldn't make him look town. If anything, it would incriminate him because it's indicative that he wanted that player dead, if he's scum.

Sure it matters. If you see flawed reasoning, it's best to correct it to prevent such reasoning from infecting future games.

[House]

Actually it was because something is off. Not sure if it is scum related or House related. Keeping an eye out:

Yeah well, let's see how well you rebound if you get banned for the same duration as a piece of shit game terrorist that takes an entire game hostage simply because you didn't buckle to his demands and allowed your frustrations to boil over in other games.

It's going to be a while before you see the House you know and tolerate. Right now, I'm just happy keeping myself from razing the boards.

[House]

I treat it as a towntell because I would never kill someone I could mislynch or could continue to tunnel to look town. Apart from you, I haven't seen anyone before who thinks this way of trying to mislynch their threats.

Then you've played with terrible scum. Mislynching threats is optimal because it leaves the NK open for PR fishing.

[House]

I think I might be done for tonight. idk.

[House]

I know there has to be scum in BBT RB Saru and Expedience.

inb4 all town

Not really. There are nine players alive. Pick half of the players still living, and you're likely to have scum in the mix, especially when no scum have flipped yet.

[House]

This gives me an idea...

Everybody pick four top scumreads. Compare everybody's top four. Lynch the player that is most widely scumread among all players.

[House]

I don't like that he's not answering my questions or explaining reads.

So?

I have experience with town!BBT doing exactly that, and I do as well.

"So?" Really?

So, that's

bad

,

regardless

of alignment, that's what's "so."

Regardless of alignment. Precisely my point.

So?

[House]

This gives me an idea...

Everybody pick four top scumreads. Compare everybody's top four. Lynch the player that is most widely scumread among all players.

Chuck, Cass, Mathblade. I don't have a fourth. Maybe pitoli or rb?

If I recall correctly, piloting is popping up with a lot of townreads. Why do you suspect them?

[House]

This gives me an idea...

Everybody pick four top scumreads. Compare everybody's top four. Lynch the player that is most widely scumread among all players.

Chuck, Cass, Mathblade. I don't have a fourth. Maybe pitoli or rb?

If I recall correctly, piloti is popping up with a lot of townreads. Why do you suspect them?

EBWOP

[House]

For him to pull off this act (if it was an act) of reverse-psychology-scumlord would require him to actually be really, really good at the game. Good enough to be capable of recognizing what is and isn't a useful thing to say and to consistently keep up this persona, even through high pressure (he's at L-2) and to continuously be able to come up with enough material to keep himself in that range of never actually contributing that much but also still being coherently incoherent. RyanK is the most obvious town that ever obvious towned.

Careful making such assumptions. I was in a game not that long ago where the newbtown read blazed to a glorious victory for her scum team.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=67031

About to head home and then hit the gym, but I'll post more this weekend. Was that boring? I know her outside game, she's very, very intelligent and has a knack for this kind of game - it's an outlier not the norm imo. But fair enough that you bring it up.

It was, and it's a valuable lesson that new to the site does not always mean new to the game.

Although boring admitted she had mafia experience elsewhere, the reason not to bring such a thing up if one rolls scum early is rather obvious.

[House]

I don't like that he's not answering my questions or explaining reads.

So?

I have experience with town!BBT doing exactly that, and I do as well.

"So?" Really?

So, that's

bad

,

regardless

of alignment, that's what's "so."

Regardless of alignment. Precisely my point.

So?

Regardless of alignment they should want to be a better player.
I suck but I try to do better and am now not an insta Mislynch.

Granted I also suffer from weakened Titus Moon Logic Syndrome but I am working on the earth landing pad.

Point is, bad play is not alignment indicative... which is rb's entire point about eh... what's his name.

Using bad play as an excuse to lynch is... bad play.

[House]

I suck but I try to do better and am now not an insta Mislynch.

Thing is, I rarely ever want to lynch "the eternal townie"

Spoiler:

TitusMeet inside joke

[House]

House. I love you. Go to bed.

Can't sleep. Guess I'll get back to reading.

[House]

It's either town-cass with scum BBT or scum-cass with scum-BBT. Either way, you're the best lynch because I don't see a way that you're town here.

In both scenarios, BBT is assumed scum, but you say Cass is the best lynch?

What is this?

[House]

I don't like that he's not answering my questions or explaining reads.

So?

I have experience with town!BBT doing exactly that, and I do as well.

"So?" Really?

So, that's

bad

,

regardless

of alignment, that's what's "so."

Regardless of alignment. Precisely my point.

So?

So, it's unconscionable to not only allow anti-town behavior to persist, but indeed to defend it when it is questioned or challenged.

Doesn't change the fact that bad play does not change a person's role pm and lynching because of "bad play" is a cheap tactic that only serves to help scum.

It is town's job to find and eliminate threats to town. Bad players are not that's too town because they can simply be read, struck from the lynch pool as bad players, and ignored.

Lynching town simply because they're bad at the game only serves to help scum.

[House]

Not answering questions, and not explaining reads, are both concrete examples of objectively anti-town play.

Are you done with the completely superfluous theory lesson yet?

Are you going to discourage objectively anti-town play, or are you going to continue to defend it?

anti-town play != scum play

Why equivocate the two?

[House]

It's either town-cass with scum BBT or scum-cass with scum-BBT. Either way, you're the best lynch because I don't see a way that you're town here.

In both scenarios, BBT is assumed scum, but you say Cass is the best lynch?

What is this?

I said BBT was best lynch.

My mistake. Thanks!

[House]

It's either town-cass with scum BBT or scum-cass with scum-BBT. Either way, you're the best lynch because I don't see a way that you're town here.

In both scenarios, BBT is assumed scum, but you say Cass is the best lynch?

What is this?

*looks at RB's posts*

*looks at lack of response*

*repeats*

*glares hard*

That was my fault, Math. I misread the context. He was interacting with BBT.

[House]

I'm not lynching BBT.

End of story.

Those of you screaming for his head need to remember that there is more than one reason for anti-town play besides drawing a scum role pm.

[House]

I'm not super happy with an rb wagon either, but if this boils down to a 1v1 between rb and BBT, rb will have to go.

Gonna read up on Dier today.

[House]

Math/Dier are my lynch choices.

Either of those would be fantastic.

Why Math? Because golden?

[House]

Yeah mainly and because of his meta case on me.

Idk man, I think that's just bad meta but not necessarily scum action.

Math isn't coming across as scum to me, more like a puppy with a piece of petrified wood they think is a bone.

[House]

@House

(one mentioned example, expressing suspicion of Naomi-Tan in 88 for mentioning Daytalk, works well as an illustration of what I mean--I would expect a Mafia player to actually check how Naomi-Tan knew this information before making the vote).

Why would a newbie mafia ask town how they knew the information when they already know that town can't know it except by the op since that player is not scum?

Experienced scum might be more likely to ask, in order to cover their own ass, but newbscum are more prone to tripping up on their own knowledge.

That's my point precisely! I am saying that RyanK asking Naomi-Tan how she knew about the number of Mafia players makes RyanK unlikely to be Mafia, because if RyanK were Mafia he would first go looking to answer that question himself.

Number of mafia players? That interaction was in regards to daytalk if I read it correctly. Where was the discussion about the number of mafia?

[House]

I don't think Math has done anything town like since his replace in.

Their*

I'll take another look at Math, but I think I'd prefer a Dier lynch at this point.

[House]

Math... If you think I'm town, you need to trust me and vote elsewhere.

If you think I'm scum, then vote me.

BBT is not the lynch today.

[House]

Math/Dier are my lynch choices.

Either of those would be fantastic.

BBT, what about a Dier wagon today, and if you still scum read Math tomorrow, I'll trust your read.

VOTE: Dierfire

[House]

It's either town-cass with scum BBT or scum-cass with scum-BBT. Either way, you're the best lynch because I don't see a way that you're town here.

In both scenarios, BBT is assumed scum, but you say Cass is the best lynch?

What is this?

*looks at RB's posts*

*looks at lack of response*

*repeats*

*glares hard*

That was my fault, Math. I misread the context. He was interacting with BBT.

How is RB not responding to a post directed at him YOUR fault?

VOTE: House

It's not. The question is my fault because rb is interacting with BBT and I misunderstood it as him scumreading Cass.

My question was out of context.

[House]

It's either town-cass with scum BBT or scum-cass with scum-BBT. Either way, you're the best lynch because I don't see a way that you're town here.

In both scenarios, BBT is assumed scum, but you say Cass is the best lynch?

What is this?

I said BBT was best lynch.

My mistake. Thanks!

See? He responded before you echoed my question.

[House]

House's entry into the game is solid, but @House: why do you think Dierfire is scum? You didn't really say.

I'll get into this more tonight, but a lot of it is because my top townread wants him or Math lynched, and I'm not seeing Math scum whereas I'm not all that enthused about my ISO on Dier.

[House]

12+72-(13*92)+19-60 = BBT town

[House]

BBT can't flip red.

[House]

There's just all kinds of things wrong with shit being said by House right now that don't add up.

It adds up fine for town because town recognizes town.

You must be faking difficulty understanding what's going on because I'm not sitting back and letting you lynch one of our assets.

[House]

12+72-(13*92)+19-60 = BBT town

Like, anyone that thinks this doesn't add up needs remedial math classes.

[House]

2+2+20 = 3+15+16

I can't break it down any simpler than that.

[House]

Not answering questions, and not explaining reads, are both concrete examples of objectively anti-town play.

Are you done with the completely superfluous theory lesson yet?

Are you going to discourage objectively anti-town play, or are you going to continue to defend it?

anti-town play != scum play

Why equivocate the two?

I'm not equivocating the two in the least.

Answer my question:
Are you going to discourage objectively anti-town play, or are you going to continue to defend it?

I refuse to lynch town simply because they are playing anti-town.

Period.

[House]

He keeps screaming I am scum without a reason.

He gave two reasons. I just disagree with them and expect him to come back with something more substantial before I'm willing to vote you.

[House]

12+72-(13*92)+19-60 = BBT town

Like, anyone that thinks this doesn't add up needs remedial math classes.

2+2+20 = 3+15+16

I can't break it down any simpler than that.

What are you talking about?

Speak in plain English. This is not cute, it's just annoying.

If I wanted to be cute, I'd have used MLP memes.

[House]

Not answering questions, and not explaining reads, are both concrete examples of objectively anti-town play.

Are you done with the completely superfluous theory lesson yet?

Are you going to discourage objectively anti-town play, or are you going to continue to defend it?

anti-town play != scum play

Why equivocate the two?

I'm not equivocating the two in the least.

Answer my question:
Are you going to discourage objectively anti-town play, or are you going to continue to defend it?

I refuse to lynch town simply because they are playing anti-town.

Period.

And you know he's town... How?

Do the math.

[House]

Shit BBT is town fuck

Ding ding ding!

WE HAVE A WINNER, FOLKS!

[House]

2+2+20 = 3+15+16

I can't break it down any simpler than that.

I think I need to explain this one or it might be considered cryptography.

That post says BBT = COP

Assign the alphabetical counterpart to reach number

I was having fun with numbers and didn't mean to cross any lines.

My apologies.

[House]

There's four days left. Factor in the weekend, and we only have about two days where people will be paying attention.

That means anybody on a one person wagon should probably start thinking about voting somewhere else.

It's time to stop voting for pressure, and time to start voting for death.

This large wagon swing makes me feel like scum were definitely in on it, even if not necessarily leading it.

I agree with Glitch however, that if he flips town, Expedience looks more town due to the claim duel thing.

That makes me suspect that either/both of RyanK and Martha Zolanski would be the scum he was a counter wagon to.

The fact that he was mostly gone during his wagon's growth is also a deciding factor in that it was a bad wagon.

It's disappointing that you guys didn't at least wait until I got back. Pushing through a wagon on the weekend is bad form even when people haven't announced V/LA.

So you want people to start voting for death... then you criticize them for pushing through a wagon when the deadline, that you used to pressure them into consolidating their wagons... was so close?

Like, wtf man? Explain how these two inconsistent thought processes come from the same mind.

[House]

Ahhh. That's the *exact* opposite of what we needed.

Silver lining though, she was who I wanted to lynch today so at least now I get to save some face.

RyanK looks really bad right about now.

BlueBloodedToffee is sneaking up on my scumdar as well.

VOTE: Chuck

[House]

Scumreading the guy that got killed wouldn't make him look town. If anything, it would incriminate him because it's indicative that he wanted that player dead, if he's scum.

Mislynching threats is optimal because it leaves the NK open for PR fishing.

[House]

Quote derp. Those were my words from 1910.

[House]

Clearly I have far more experience than you anyway, and you should trust that.

Do explain how you have so much more experience than rb, with your 1 game (THIS ONE) listed in your post history?

[House]

Ahhh. That's the *exact* opposite of what we needed.

Silver lining though, she was who I wanted to lynch today so at least now I get to save some face.

RyanK looks really bad right about now.

BlueBloodedToffee is sneaking up on my scumdar as well.

VOTE: Chuck

?

I don't like to look stupid.

You wanted Martha dead.
She died.
You're relieved that the manner of her death allows you to save face.

Yeah. I can totally see that coming from town.

[House]

thought BBT had crumbed cop

He didn't crumb the role. He crumbed an inno.

[House]

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee
He's sitting back in his armchair trying to look as nonchalant as possible and I'm not having any of that shit.

I PMed the mod asking if he could issue BBT some sort of warning to actually participate in the game. That being said, if BBT is scum, I doubt that he will try to win by doing this coasting strategy all game.

It's not the coasting that bothers me, it's "look at me, i'm coasting!".

And this is how anti-town play differs from scum play.

Do you really think scum would not only coast, but beat you over the head with that fact? Hell nah. That's PR play all day long.

[House]

frankly unacceptable lynches: gameplay, ryan, martha, rb
meh lynches: cass, saru, dierfire, golden009, pitoli
good shit lynches: bbt, chuck, glitch

This is basically an activity list

That's coincidental.

[House]

Chuck arguing that House is "defending BBT's anti-town play" is disingenuous as fuck.

Why? I was.

[House]

Why do we think BBT is cop anyway?

Just a hunch. Could well be wrong.

Hell, I probably am.

[House]

House thinks some strange things, and decided to make a code of it for some inexplicable reason which mislead others

I didn't mislead anyone.

[House]

the reason that I'd prefer lynching him over rb is that I'm reading rb as Town and can more easily base that read on concrete things. As an additional illustration of the difference, I also don't like the "style" that RyanK was using, but I have some concrete reasons to read RyanK as Town.

There is more to reading players than the answers they provide to questions, Dier. I rather dislike basing my reads on the answers to questions because scum has the tendency to lie, y'know?

Do you really want to know how I'm so certain that BBT is town?

1272 - can't read Ryan for shit, suggests an investigative target him at the Wendi of d1.

1392 - is

really

sure Ryan is town, at the very beginning of the next day.

1960 - had zero fear of being lynched. Some call this overconfidence, but he knows he won't be lynched because he has a role that can't be countered.

These three posts mean infinitely more in the way of trading alignment that

anything

rb has posted, imho.

[House]

the reason that I'd prefer lynching him over rb is that I'm reading rb as Town and can more easily base that read on concrete things. As an additional illustration of the difference, I also don't like the "style" that RyanK was using, but I have some concrete reasons to read RyanK as Town.

There is more to reading players than the answers they provide to questions, Dier. I rather dislike basing my reads on the answers to questions because scum has the tendency to lie, y'know?

Do you really want to know how I'm so certain that BBT is town?

1272 - can't read Ryan for shit, suggests an investigative target him at the end of d1.

1392 - is

really

sure Ryan is town, at the very beginning of the next day.

1960 - had zero fear of being lynched. Some call this overconfidence, but he knows he won't be lynched because he has a role that can't be countered.

These three posts mean infinitely more in the way of reading alignment that

anything

rb has posted, imho.

EBWOP, stupid phone.

[House]

In other news, Chuck needs more votes.

[House]

I can kill Cass/House/BBT

How in the hell is BBT in your list after I've possibly explained how he is town???

[House]

I can kill Cass/House/BBT

How in the hell is BBT in your list after I've plainly explained how he is town???

EBWOP.

[House]

I can kill Cass/House/BBT

How in the hell is BBT in your list after I've possibly explained how he is town???

......

Because you even said yourself you're not even sure it's just a hunch and I don't see it. Like it's so dumb, "BBT is being rly anti-town so he must be PR or scum and I think it's PR because I have a hunch".

Also mafia having daychat is obviously influencing the game at this point. BBT is still drawing attention away from the fact he hasn't explained anything and has dodged questions page after page and abandoned trying to get me lynched for Dier instead.

Most obvious counterwagon ever.

He softed an innocent, you clown. You haven't read a thing I posted.

[House]

Same with House basically quoting like 10 of my posts being like, "yeh good town posts" while admitting BBT is anti-town but should still lynch me because *hunch BBT is PR*

Yeah, because the question was rb vs BBT. BBT wins hands down. Duh.

[House]

rb, I said BBT was a hunch because I didn't want to drag too much attention to my read. People made a big deal over it, so I explained exactly where my PR read on him came from.

the reason that I'd prefer lynching him over rb is that I'm reading rb as Town and can more easily base that read on concrete things. As an additional illustration of the difference, I also don't like the "style" that RyanK was using, but I have some concrete reasons to read RyanK as Town.

There is more to reading players than the answers they provide to questions, Dier. I rather dislike basing my reads on the answers to questions because scum has the tendency to lie, y'know?

Do you really want to know how I'm so certain that BBT is town?

1272 - can't read Ryan for shit, suggests an investigative target him at the Wendi of d1.

1392 - is

really

sure Ryan is town, at the very beginning of the next day.

1960 - had zero fear of being lynched. Some call this overconfidence, but he knows he won't be lynched because he has a role that can't be countered.

These three posts mean infinitely more in the way of trading alignment that

anything

rb has posted, imho.

You misrepping my read and casting shade like this is scummy shit.

VOTE: rb

[House]

Dier first please House?

Why? Do you think a Dier flip is informative for rb's alignment? Because right now I'm smelling scum desperate for a mislynch.

[House]

No what's scummy shit is that you out this prematurely meaning that this night's kill is totally surrounded with wifom and fucking impossible to draw patterns from, simultaneously buddying the suspected town PR and trying to push against his primary scumread.

Followed by right now going from, "rb is town and it was a matter of if it is rb vs. BBT" - but this isn't rb vs. BBT and you're voting me - explain.

More scummy ass misrep. When I said you were the better lynch, I was answering the "rb vs BBT?" question.

Of the two of you, I'd lynch you over BBT for reasons obvious.

Now you're trying to twist my shit and that only makes me happier with my vote.

[House]

I'm not lynching BBT.

End of story.

Those of you screaming for his head need to remember that there is more than one reason for anti-town play besides drawing a scum role pm.

I'm not super happy with an rb wagon either, but if this boils down to a 1v1 between rb and BBT, rb will have to go.

Gonna read up on Dier today.

Want to keep misrepping my play, rb?

[House]

Where? And why would you highlight it prematurely when he's not even at risk of lynch?

Goddamn dude I've posted it over and over but you are still asking where...

Ffs

[House]

Where? And why would you highlight it prematurely when he's not even at risk of lynch?

So why do you keep asking where if you saw it?

[House]

I thought gameplay was off his rocker for tunneling you, but all this shit is telling me that he had your ass pegged.

Anybody not voting rb by their next post needs to explain they're townread on him, because he's a scumfuck.

[House]

I thought gameplay was off his rocker for tunneling you, but all this shit is telling me that he had your ass pegged.

Anybody not voting rb by their next post needs to explain their townread on him, because he's a scumfuck.

EBWOP phone posting sigh

[House]

@mod: I'm voting rb, not Chuck

[House]

So... How funny would it be if all the scum are getting replaced?

[House]

*Smacky Smacky the Housey*

Bad house.

I would not have unvoted BBT if I was scum.

I also disagree with the assertion all scum are being replaced as I think it is Chuck+RB.

Quite happy where my vote is.

It was a joke, Pi.

[House]

It was a joke, Pi.

Pi is not so sure. If Chuck or RB flip town Pi goes back to suspecting Housey.

How does this:

So... How funny would it be if all the scum are getting replaced?

not look like a joke? It was about the mod announcing the replacement of two slots.

[House]

Pitoli, tell me about your vanity vote please.

[House]

Oh they're gone... Sheesh.

[House]

pitoli and Cass are being replaced. No deadline extension.

[House]

Do you really want to know how I'm so certain that BBT is town?

1272 - can't read Ryan for shit, suggests an investigative target him at the Wendi of d1.

1392 - is

really

sure Ryan is town, at the very beginning of the next day.

1960 - had zero fear of being lynched. Some call this overconfidence, but he knows he won't be lynched because he has a role that can't be countered.

These three posts mean infinitely more in the way of trading alignment that

anything

rb has posted, imho.

lol nevermind I'm an idiot. Guess Ryan is town.
Dier is still scum though.

Who did you replace?

[House]

Do you really want to know how I'm so certain that BBT is town?

1272 - can't read Ryan for shit, suggests an investigative target him at the Wendi of d1.

1392 - is

really

sure Ryan is town, at the very beginning of the next day.

1960 - had zero fear of being lynched. Some call this overconfidence, but he knows he won't be lynched because he has a role that can't be countered.

These three posts mean infinitely more in the way of trading alignment that

anything

rb has posted, imho.

lol nevermind I'm an idiot. Guess Ryan is town.
Dier is still scum though.

Who did you replace?

I'm assuming you're talking about my scum list? The only other person who goes well with Dierfire is rb, and I refuse to believe he's scum right now. I just want Dier today.

No. I'm wondering who

you

replaced in for.

[House]

Um...no one? I've been in this game since the start?

Oh damn, my bad.

I don't remember you.

[House]

I actually can't tell if you're joking or not...

See the problem?

[House]

I actually can't tell if you're joking or not...

See the problem?

Oh. So you are joking? Sorry, I'm actually confused right now lmfao. I don't pick up on sarcasm that well.

I don't think it's all that funny.

You're basically a nonentity in this game.

[House]

I don't think it's all that funny.

You're basically a nonentity in this game.

Why? Because I'm not voting the person you want me to?

No, because you don't do anything.

[House]

I don't think it's all that funny.

You're basically a nonentity in this game.

Why? Because I'm not voting the person you want me to?

No, because you don't do anything.

And what I haven't done? I made a case for why Dier is scum. How about you read it and vote him? Or are you just going to keep discrediting me?

I am not discrediting you, dude. I've not said a single word about your posts other than the fact there simply isn't many of them.

I read your ISO, and it's actually pretty decent but you also haven't really done much.

Dier is a vanity wagon today. Notice the vote count? He's not happening.

Read rb and tell me why he deserves another day to continue destroying town.

[House]

Dier would happen if you joined the wagon House.

What is your read on him?

Dier is hard for me to read because he's so unnervingly calculating. My kneejerk response is to lynch him, but his posts are just so... reasonable. I don't have the "Ew, reeks of teh scumz" like I do with rb.

I was hoping to have something more to go on toMorrow so I could feel better about his wagon.

[House]

Fine...

[House]

Dier isn't a lurker - he posts enough to get noticed (usually in walls knowing people will mostly slip them).

I'll repeat this again - can anyone show me where Dier has done any scum hunting/made any attempts to push somebody? Instead of just explaining town reads.

PEdit - House, look at Dier's posts and see if he has done any of what I mentioned above.

Maybe you should stop slipping his walls. Information of note can usually be found at/near the end of them, anyway.

Dier is interacting with others, asking as well as answering questions. Just yesterday, he posted a list of scumspects (myself among them, sadly).

Do you think he's scum for not vomiting reads lists? For not playing the way you like to play? That kind of stuff strike a nerve with me BBT, because I am frequently run up when I'm town because I don't play to the stereotypical townie image.

[House]

Oh, and here's the kicker, he unvotes and backs off as soon as that slot gets filled with a player he knows is hard to get lynched. His excuse is "golden is not scum from D1 actions" after saying "golden is scum from D1 actions."

Quote?

[House]

so it's strange to me that she claims in 1565 that she was suspicious of pitoli being eager to hammer a Town player).

Do you mean this bit?

Made him sound like scum eager and happy to hammer a townie.

That doesn't sound like she is calling Glitch town per se, but the kind of scum v town interaction where scum is hammering town.

It sounds speculative, not like a slip.

[House]

Also, Cass expressed suspicion of pitoli's voting pattern (1424), but appears not to have spent time on that ISO (despite having marked it as a priority)

and instead moves several other votes around.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Clarify, please?

[House]

Also, I don't have much experience with BBT as Mafia, but multiple other players who do have said that he can play with confidence as Mafia.

idc, confidence is not evidence of scum motivation.

Not lynching there.

[House]

The fact House actually pieces together a PR claim from BBT

1) never said he claimed a PR.
2) I was asked a question, and stumbled across those posts in the course of my ISO, which made me wonder how someone could 180 their read over the course of the night phase.
3) Your reaching is terribad.

[House]

Holy hell 90 pages d2 what God have i angered.
I've read nothing and i already can tell me need purging

Obvscum entrance.

[House]

The fact House actually pieces together a PR claim from BBT

1) never said he claimed a PR.
2) I was asked a question, and stumbled across those posts in the course of my ISO, which made me wonder how someone could 180 their read over the course of the night phase.
3) Your reaching is terribad.

You almost had a meltdown when I said BBT was a viable lynch because you're apparently very sure that he's a PR. Wtf are you reading that you think I'm "reaching"? I'm just paraphrasing things YOU YOURSELF FUCKING SAID.

You're also lying, because I never said he claimed PR.

[House]

Idk, I'm reading rb's frustration here as townish.

He seems genuinely upset that I'm being obtuse (hint: I was baiting a reaction). I was expecting a renewal of his assault on me, but here bashing me over the head with my derpage.

VOTE: Dierfire

Dier, why am I scum?

[House]

Idk, I'm reading rb's frustration here as townish.

He seems genuinely upset that I'm being obtuse (hint: I was baiting a reaction). I was expecting a renewal of his assault on me, but he's bashing me over the head with my derpage.

VOTE: Dierfire

Dier, why am I scum?

EBWOP

[House]

Huh, I think I wanna lynch Spyrex if Dier flips scum.

If Ryan was scum I'm going to give up playing Mafia.

Really does not sound like a PR statement.

That's... actually true.

[House]

@House

Dier, why am I scum?

Is this...a riddle of some sort? You want me to make a case that you are Mafia?

You seem to think i am, so... Yes.

[House]

@MathBlade

Assume RB is scum. Who is scum with him?

Repeat for BBT Expedience and Saru.

That's a lot of work!

Spoiler: If rb were Mafia

I would think that the argument with Saru (1544, 1549, 1570) was too heated for them to be partners. The abrupt turn on BBT in 1661 also seems unlikely from a partner. The early game interactions would require some scrutiny, but I think that this post would make RyanK and gameplay506 (now House) unlikely partners as well (RyanK more so):

See you're right our interaction is scummy, you're wrong about the scum. It was optimal because I think I could have got more than 1 scum to get on your wagon and then we can counter-wagon on scum later in the day. It sounds dumb but it actually works pretty well. Gameplay is the scum you're looking for. You should vote gameplay.

VOTE: gameplay

Perhaps the L-1 vote on your wagon in 1594 would point to a bus if rb were Mafia (since the vote came off fairly easily in 1616).
Of the remaining slots, for a pure guess I'll say that Cass would be the final Mafia player.

Spoiler: If BBT were Mafia

As I mentioned above, rb would be an unlikely partner. For your argument with BBT, I have mixed feelings. It certainly goes on long enough, but I can't say that it seems especially difficult to choreograph (largely due to repetition). The exchange with pitoli in 1397 looks decently unlikely to be choreographed. When Expedience enters the game and posts 575 and 577, BBT has a reaction 579 that doesn't seem like Expedience's partner (I was going to say too negative, but that's not really the word that I want--it's definitely too..something).
I could see a number of players as partners with few interactions: Saru, Cass, Chuck, perhaps even RyanK.
I've no idea what to make of House if BBT is Mafia.

Spoiler: If Expedience were Mafia

Again, the interaction with BBT around 579 seems unlikely from Mafia partners. For Chuck, too, the opposition is a bit too persistent for me to suspect partnership. House seems to be in an educational mode in 2045 (doesn't seem like the kind of interaction that would ordinarily occur to partners to stage), so that's another unlikely option.
I'll throw out pitoli and Cass as reads that remains vague with hints of suspicion that are not clearly explained (possibly good places for partners).

Spoiler: If Saru were Mafia

As I mentioned above, I would find rb an unlikely partner for Saru. RyanK would also be an unlikely partner for the business about "reverse psychology" in 1061 (if Saru isn't pushing a bus, he doesn't need to dispute reasons to read his partner as Town). I'd earlier considered the possibility that Saru casting a vote for me in 1568 as a reaction to my 1557 represented a "chainsaw defense" of your slot, augmented by Saru's questions directed at golden009 when they were sharing a vote on me D1, so that would be one good place to start (similar considerations might apply to House, formerly gameplay506). Saru has many players with minimal interactions (addressing them or reading them): pitoli, Cass, Chuck, Expedience, BBT. As with BBT, there's a lot of room for partners in there.

(@Chuck too)

Who are your scum reads?

Also who do you have as a scum read Dierfire?

I put more time into the first part of this than I expected, so I'm still not done with this. I'm returning tonight to finish up.

However, since I'm reading a good number of players as Town, I could give you the list of contenders:

House

, BBT, Saru, Chuck, Cass

.

At least, this reads to me like a scum read...

[House]

House hasn't complained I am scum yet

I haven't?

You're scum and this makes me unhappy.

Problem solved.

[House]

Lol Now the tradition is upheld /le sigh of sarcasm

You are hard to read, so I look for certain things that I haven't yet seen.

I'd rather not treat a friend as an asshole, which is what I do with most people until I'm satisfied they're town (just ask Titus about the difference pre- and post-meet, my approach towards people changes significantly once I get to know them as more than pixels).

[House]

Remind me: what prior experience to you have with me as Mafia?

Perfect, this is the perfect response.

Notice; I have asked Dier no less than 3 times to show me who is scum and why. What response have I had? Zilch.

Instead, he chooses to try and flag up a meta discussion at the veru first opportunity. You must have missed all the times I asked you who was scum, right? Hell no.

Who is scum and why Dier. It's a very simple question.

Pot kettle. Black.

Pool. Ocean. Wet.

Who's next?

[House]

There is quite a big difference between the two.

Would you say it's like the difference between a pool and an ocean?

[House]

Yeah, that's a pretty big difference too.

But they're both wet.

Bazinga!

[House]

Why are you voting with BBT then?

2300?

[House]

And Dierfire Experience becomes a possible team

And in other news BBT still derping.

(Correction added)

Math, are you speculating an association over one post?

If not, what else suggests they may be aligned?

[House]

SpyreX, please come join the Kool Kids Klub.

[House]

@House

At least, this reads to me like a scum read...

I think that a careful reading of my 2071 will show that I made a list of all players I was not reading as Town, and "players I am not reading as Town" and "players I am reading as Mafia" are different things.
At any rate, I have no case to present that you are Mafia.

I was still chewing on this, and not all that crazy about the flavor.

Your unwillingness to take a stance on scum had me thinking you didn't want to provide town with information that could be used against your team, be it direct information or implication via association.

[House]

SpyreX, please come join the Kool Kids Klub.

I wish that i could be like the cool kids

VOTE: dierfire

You're halfway there.

Just add a hammer meme and you'll get full membership privileges.

[House]

You begin responding on real time now??

Wish that could have happened sooner.

Granted, idk what's going on with any other obligations you have, but it makes things significantly slower having to wait for a once a day player to come in, which may have exacerbated the activity issue.

[House]

Eh, scratch that last post.

[House]

I usually hang around for at least 30-60 minutes after I finish posting! It's just that no one has been online to have discussions in real time.

Yeah, I didn't mean to sound like I was trying to guilt you over anything, and I'm sorry for that.

[House]

(Also I was responding to you in real time some 51 hours ago)

I stand corrected!

[House]

SpyreX, please come join the Kool Kids Klub.

I wish that i could be like the cool kids

VOTE: dierfire

I think this is hammer? I put him at @L-1?

I'm pretty sure it was.

[House]

What do you think of Syprex's hammer?

Looked like one of mine, but I typically use memes for comedic effect.

[House]

I mean, I did all for the vote and all, so it would be hypocritical for me to criticize him for it.

[House]

I mean, I did ask for the vote and all, so it would be hypocritical for me to criticize him for it.

EBWOP

[House]

Since when do you care about how you look or if you are perceived as a hypocrite?

How I look? Never.

Hypocrisy, however, is a huge sticking point with me.

[House]

Welcome, Titus and camn!

[House]

And why you aren't poking SpyreX for the post above you.

What, the thrill of hammer thing?

Have you never SEEN me hammer, Math?

Yeah, it sucks that we were wrong and Dier was town, but let's be fair... their refusal to take any stances on who scum is and mediocre involvement in the game earned them their scum reads.

[House]

Oh so scum didn't kill me this time.

Time to read up.

It gets even better, you replaced into a poetry obvtown slot!

[House]

Oh so scum didn't kill me this time.

Time to read up.

It gets even better, you replaced into a pretty obvtown slot!

EBWOP

[House]

Scumreading the guy that got killed wouldn't make him look town. If anything, it would incriminate him because it's indicative that he wanted that player dead, if he's scum.

Mislynching threats is optimal because it leaves the NK open for PR fishing.

[/quote]

Ahhh. That's the *exact* opposite of what we needed.

Silver lining though, she was who I wanted to lynch today so at least now I get to save some face.

RyanK looks really bad right about now.

BlueBloodedToffee is sneaking up on my scumdar as well.

VOTE: Chuck

?

I don't like to look stupid.

You wanted Martha dead.
She died.
You're relieved that the manner of her death allows you to save face.

Yeah. I can totally see that coming from town.

VOTE: Chuck

[House]

In other news, I'm a little paranoid on why BBT is still alive.

[House]

There is no such thing as a textbook post in Mafia

. If you need one there is something wrong. It should be honest, raw, to the core things.

If you play Mafia like a strategy I will end up scumreading you every time.

[House]

Hi everyone!
I have only read some of the game, so forgive me if there are holes in my comprehension. I read the fist 10 pages or so, plus everything since Spyrex started.

That said, I am confident Spyrex is town.
Also, I'd like to run House up to a claim immediately. I am quite convinced that this is necessity. Spy- townbloc with me on this, I promise you I have a plan.

VOTE: House

I have some pointed questions for you, House, but I'd like someone to be holding a hammer when I ask them

It's funny how you think I give a shit about pressure.

Good luck, have fun!

[House]

I intend to.

Also also, if you have any desire for cooperation from me, have rb and Chuck on my wagon before L-1.

Otherwise, I refuse to claim and/or share whatever results I might have (if applicable).

[House]

Also Expedience being JK makes me wonder if there's an investigative role in this game at all. Cop+Doc+JK? Seems opie unless there's a dogfather?

Do we really want to discuss this right now?

[House]

Blah. You make no sense to me House. Like I am seriously confused right now by you.

How I look is irrelevant to me because I know my alignment and motives.

Judging someone else for the very things I do myself is hypocritical because I DON'T know THEIR alignment, but I obviously DO know why it COULD be done as town.

Make more sense now?

[House]

Also Expedience being JK makes me wonder if there's an investigative role in this game at all. Cop+Doc+JK? Seems opie unless there's a dogfather?

Do we really want to discuss this right now?

Just speculating, don't care either way.

Oh well, since you put it that way...

One possibility I guess is the existence of some sort of scum redirector or roleblocker to impede the use of town pr's.

[House]

I guess that explains his fervor for claim dueling. I thought he was

either a VT or scum

, what with him waving the claim duel around like he did. Guess not.

That just doesn't make sense. I don't see why you'd think a VT would actively rolefish like that.

My guess was scum or a protective pr of some sort.

I wish he had claimed d1 instead of Martha. Then Martha could have protected him while he jailed someone else. Ah, opportunity lost.

[House]

Alive

1)

gameplay506

House
2)

Comparing Realities

BlueBloodedToffee
3) Saru
4)

pitoli

Titus
5) rb
6)

RyanK

SpyreX
7)

golden009

MathBlade
8) Chuck
9)

Cass

camn

Dead

1) Glitch (Vanilla Townie)
2) Martha Zolanski (Town Doctor)
2) Dierfire (Vanilla Townie)
4) Expedience (Town Jailkeeper)

So that means Saru and rb and I are the only non-replacements. At least there's only one replacement in each slot. Small favors.

Do you have a point, or are you just creating noise?

[House]

In other news, I'm a little paranoid on why BBT is still alive.

Actually, I'll not.

This was a derp post.

[House]

In other news, I'm a little paranoid on why BBT is still alive.

Actually, I'm not.

This was a derp post.

EBWOP

[House]

House, why am I obvious town?

I'll tell you later.

[House]

Also House, before you get any more scared/defensive.... I am 85% sure about your alignment right now.
If you play ball with me, then I will be 98% sure by the end of the day if you are town OR scum.

And where have I looked either scared or defensive?

I told you how to obtain my cooperation. You're halfway there.

[House]

If SpyreX and scum both shot Expedience then I don't even know what that means.

Either way like was already said, we need to find out who he probably jailed.

Why would scum shoot Expedience over BBT?

[House]

To be fair i almost shot house.

That's just hurtful.

[House]

If SpyreX and scum both shot Expedience then I don't even know what that means.

Either way like was already said, we need to find out who he probably jailed.

Why would scum shoot Expedience over BBT?

House you aren't this bad either.

If BBT is a cop it could be wine.
If BBT is a cop Expedience could have jailkept BBT.

If BBT is not a cop and you are just wrong and Expedience didn't trust you he could have jailkept someone else and they were shot.


Cmon Chuck and House this is terribad.

SpyreX claimed a vig shot on Expedience, so I was probably right.

You are right that I derped, but not how.

[House]

VOTE: House

Why did you vote me to L-1 without even mentioning it?

camn, you heard my terms for cooperation. They haven't changed.

I suggest you unvote and have Chuck take your slot.

[House]

1) do you, or did you ever, really think that BBT was a cop. Please explain in moderate detail. And be honest. Lies are punishable by death at this point.

Do you really want to know how I'm so certain that BBT is town?

1272 - can't read Ryan for shit, suggests an investigative target him at the end (sic) of d1.

1392 - is

really

sure Ryan is town, at the very beginning of the next day.

1960 - had zero fear of being lynched. Some call this overconfidence, but he knows he won't be lynched because he has a role that can't be countered.

These three posts mean infinitely more in the way of reading (sic) alignment than

anything

rb has posted, imho.

Thought I already posted this.

If you need more detail than this, it'll have to wait for full intent.

[House]

No, don't vote me unless you want me dead.

I think Chuck is waiting off the wagon for a different reason.

If you really want to do this, I'll explain in detail... but doing so may cause more harm than good.

Consider your options carefully.

[House]

House, we need scum lynches. What could be so bad?

What indeed.

[House]

Ok, house. I'm town, and I don't want too much out there, either, so I understand your reluctance.

But I think that you never really believed BBT was a cop. I think you made that up. I don't know why, other than you are scum and were just throwing out misinformation.
So tell me - did you ever, or do you know think BBT is a cop?
I promise you I will blow up your entire slot if you f-- with me.

Counter-question:

What do you think my opinion of BBT changing his read of RyanK from complete confusion to certainty over a night phase really was?

Present one rational alternative besides "investigative role" and I will spill all.

[House]

Huh, I think I wanna lynch Spyrex if Dier flips scum.

If Ryan was scum I'm going to give up playing Mafia.

Really does not sound like a PR statement.

That's... actually true.

Ya think?

[House]

I think you are scum, and you were rolefishing the whole time.

This is highly ironic, considering what you are doing.

[House]

Calm your britches, I have company and we're celebrating her birthday.

[House]

And titus- are you buying this?
That house is busy and distracted by RL so he has time to dig up quotes instead of just answering a simple yes/no?

I have time for of the cuff banter as time allows, but not in depth conversation.

[House]

House, what is your Math read?

I was hoping to leave her to you to sort, tbh.

I was thinking town until she up and put me at L-1 without a peep.

Now I'm confused.

[House]

VOTE: House

[House]

I think someone even mentioned that scum didn't have a prayer if titus was allowed to live.

That was probably me, lol.

[House]

Thanks for modding, Accountant!

[House]

Thanks, but I really did jackshit other than state the obvious and mislynch my sibling.

Not at all true.

You would have decimated scum if left alive one more day.

[House]

Hey Chuck, yeah you kinda pissed me off a bit, but on the same note I'm no saint because I quoted something inappropriately.

Bygones?

[House]

Tbh I don't even think the scum were good, town was just shit.

No need for air grapes, Chuck played well.

[House]

Tbh I don't even think the scum were good, town was just shit.

No need for sour grapes, Chuck played well.

Lulz EBWOP

[House]

LyLo is the ultimate test of who you can trust and who you can not trust

if rb and bbt had managed to forge an understanding and trust between them, the only person left is chuck, who both of them suspect.

goodposting

[House]

rb and BBT had me concerned for a while because they were getting civil.

[House]

I mean, I dealt with some tragic loss this game, a real life cut short, and even I stuck around, to see things through.

Props for that. Well done.

[House]

...
1. Glitch flipped town. Which looks bad on you.
2. Martha flipped town. Which looks bad on you.
3. You're trying to lynch me after trying to make me look bad for using common sense in twilight.
...

Chuck, the second argument is an argument I've thought myself to look out for. Usually, scum would be the one that would say that because that's a common purpose of their night kill, to paint someone else as scum. I doubt I'm wrong here as Vedith did it in my first game here, and he flipped scum. VOTE: Chuck

Can't believe I was right all along.

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. You should only pat yourself on the back if you've been systematically and consistently right.

This stopped clock has been through one day now.

It's not like you called the entire team dude.

You got lucky on a roulette wheel. Congrats?

[House]

I didn't think too much about it til you didn't push SpyreX.

Which is funny because there are a couple reasons I wouldn't push him for a lolhammer anyway.

[House]

Oh boy.

[House]

It is incredibly interesting, imperfect yet intrinsically, intimately intricate, and impossibly, inexplicably inimitable.

So are you V's brother, I?

[House]

(V for Vendetta, that paragraph reminded me of his speech pattern.)