Mini Normal 2187: PIFiMDM [game over!]
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Nobody is lurking 2 pages into the game.In post 21, NoPowerOverMe wrote:Why are you so interested in RQS but think that lurking is ok?-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Honestly, all the talk about theory of whose wagoning is worthwhile or whether RVS is important is just noise. I don't feel it's productive forto continue that line of discussion. The only reason I prodded it is because #11 is a very touchy reaction to being voted. In my opinion, it's not pro-town. Jury is still out on whether it's scummy.anyone
This is a weird thing to say.In post 37, Gamma Emerald wrote:Btw dannflor being IC is pretty good because he’s like, the number one guess for a deepwolf whenever he plays
What are your reads, Gamma?-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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People should be voting at this point instead of doing this.In post 69, Dannflor wrote:Honestly, all the talk about theory of whose wagoning is worthwhile or whether RVS is important is just noise. I don't feel it's productive for anyone to continue that line of discussion.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I can pretend for uIn post 83, PenguinPower wrote:Dan being town removes a lot of paranoia but also a lot of meming-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Can you expand on your Gamma, Hayker, and Alchemist reads, please?In post 251, Lunar Martian wrote:After some reflection, I believe the following people to be townsfolk: Gamma, Hayker maybe, Ben, Alchemist maybe, NoPower (although he needs to drop the "anyone who attacks the townblock is Mafia" shtick). That leaves seven people within which I'll be focusing my energy for now.
UNVOTE: Gamma-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Can you break down and ELI5 what exactly Elements has done that is out of line with expected experienced townie behavior?In post 253, Kazyan wrote:I can't come up with a reason (WIFOM-based or otherwise) that an experienced townie would act the way that Elements has.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Alright, here's the deal. I believe Elements is town and the wagon on them sucks, for a variety of reasons.
A couple people have already claimed that I have above average reads as town, but you don't have to sheep me for that. In fact, I'd prefer you didn't. Instead, just consider my opinions and talk about them knowing that they're coming from a person who is confirmed town.
First of all, ben dover123 and NoPowerOverMe are both likely town. I won't be too loquacious on bendover since most players seem to agree that he's town. However, I will state that aside from just general feelings of obv-towniness from the motivation and quality of his posts, his "white knighting" of Lunar Martian is unlikely to come from a scum mindset. Essentially, bendover is trying to defend a slot as limbaity before they've even fully participated in the game, doesn't do so subtly, and continues to attract a lot of attention to himself staunchly defending his opinion. It's an unneeded reach for town cred as scum that doesn't really gain a whole lot. The more natural scum move would be to soft defend Lunar Martian later, if indeed the slot turns out to be limbaity. Overall, Ben doesn't strike me as the player to go for such a bold move just to desperately defend a potentially limbaity slot. Combined with his other posts, it's more likely that the defense comes from a town mindset that genuinely and desperately believes he needs to make his opinion on the Lunar Martian slot clear.
Mostly wanted to expound on that in case anyone does disagree because I think this is a safeish universal town read.
NPOM is a trickier read, and it has taken me a while to come around on this slot. But, I think my initial issues stemmed from playstyle differences more than anything else. A lot of this read is *vibe*, much in the same way the majority of my ben dover read is. It would be helpful to me if people who scum read this slot were very vocal as to the exact reasons why. There's been a few posts where I find his thought process hard to fake and
yknow what. I don't have to make up reasons for town reading people. I don't have to prove I'm town. I'm IC. deal with it.
Lunar Martian is also leaning town, not for being limbaity but for other reasons I'll expand on if people need them.
ELEMENTS is probably town and most of the reasons people have for scum reading them is bad? The wagon initially started on them for two reasons. The first is because they entered the game with the gimmick of "vote everyone at least once." Which... anyone who has played on this site for any amount of time should know a gimmick like that is probably not scum indicative. A few people threw around accusations that Elements as an experienced town player shouldn't behave this way (looking at you Kazyan), and failed to consider what reasons an experienced town player might have for such a gimmick. That is, to get reactions and start discussion. Most of Elements' posting, and indeed their playstyle, seems to be in engaging players that react to them and their actions.
The other reason is like this weird post by Alchemist where he considers Elements' feeling strongly about building a wagon scummy? Alchemist never really follows up on this and has since just floated on the vote, but I digress.In post 104, Alchemist21 wrote:This post. Elements why are you telling other people to move their vote this early in the game?
Both weird/bad reasons. The wagon has continued because of the perceived badness of Elements' focus on 1v1 interactions with people who suspect them. I don't think this is scummy, but it can be limbaity because people automatically suspect defensiveness in mafia. However, rather than pure defensiveness, I read their posts as trying to earnestly question the people who suspect them.
In fact, Elements reminds me a lot of Auro in Team Mafia 2020, who had a similar play style of arguing about people's suspicions of him, and remained the top D1 town wagon for quite some time because of it.
I also just look at the wagon and I'm... not impressed. Aside from NPOM, I'm not town reading any of the slots on the wagon. Alchemist had a weird entrance where he said I had good reads as town even though I don't think I've ever played as town with him before? I could very well be wrong but aside from that he just hasn't really done anything this game besides sit on a weak Elements vote. Hayker seems more intent on justifying their actions then in actually following through with their actions (I can explain this more if needed). Kazyan, I honestly have difficulty reading.In post 275, Datisi wrote:Elements [4]: Alchemist21, Kazyan, Hayker, NoPowerOverMe
Lunar Martian [1]: PenguinPower
NoPowerOverMe [1]: ben dover123
ben dover123 [1]: Gamma Emerald
PenguinPower [1]: Elements
Kazyan [1]: Papa Zito
Not voting [4]: HeWhoSwims, 2ndchosen1, Dannflor, Lunar Martian
Uh who else. Gamma Emerald could very well be scum this game. He has a lot of good surface level solvy posts but he's an experienced enough player to be able to fake a lot of those. In my mind he hasn't taken really any hard stances or done anything that I can confidently say is town for him yet.
I got light light town pings from HeWhoSwims but he obviously needs to post more...
Dannflor is town and I heard he has pretty good reads sometimes
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[PapaZito, 2ndchosen1, PenguinPower and Kazyan] are all kinda in this weird limbo of null because they either need more content or I can't parse their posts quite yet.
[Gamma/Alchemist/Hayker] lean more towards scum to varying levels of confidence.
I'd support wagons on any of the above.
[bendover, NPOM, Elements, Lunar Martian, HeWhoSwims] lean more towards town to varying levels of confidence.
Granted, these are all just basic impression formed off of 10 pages. And I'm sure they'll change drastically in the next 10. But wanted to get that out their as a log of a confirmed townie's thoughts.
My strongest/most important opinion is just the Elements wagon is weak and there's a reason I've been asking for more justification there. I would strongly prefer a wagon basically anywhere but in my three top town reads.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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hey this be a good post actuallyIn post 327, Papa Zito wrote:!!!!!!!!!! BEGIN PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT !!!!!!!!!!
PLAYSTYLE DISCUSSIONS DO NOT FIND SCUM
THIS GAME IS ENDLESSLY DEBATING PLAYSTYLE NONSENSE
LET'S FOCUS ON MESSAGE AND INTENT INSTEAD
THANK YOU IN ADVANCE
!!!!!!!!!! END PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT !!!!!!!!!!
papa z can be town-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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why is this suspicious to you?In post 331, Lunar Martian wrote:not being open-minded and instead forming opinions and judgements based on that game in order to defend me while I was away.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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this is trueIn post 345, PenguinPower wrote:No, they just give me a green name to inform everyone of my alignment. I'm basically Dann's IC mason brother.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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it tastes of lamist
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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so uh, is it good or badIn post 377, Lunar Martian wrote:I like this post, especially the bit in the middle about Penguin. The bit at the end detracts from it though.
how does it affect your view on Kazyan in general
why is the end bad-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Hayker, can you go into specifically what about Zito's meta created this read for you?In post 457, Hayker wrote:So I spent a large part of my day yesterday reviewing an old game I played. Due to it, I believe Papa Zito to be town. Ill admit using meta from a long time ago is a bit foolish, but it gives me a read on him for the time being.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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@PP, my town feelings on Lunar at the time mostly came down to their "cute" vote on me entering the game and then the way they reacted to bendover's automatic defense of them. They also don't spend a lot of time addressing the discourse around their slot at the time and instead go immediately into solving mode. Like instead of playing defense or attacking people for the early wagon on them, Lunar tries to dig deeper into the reasons for people's posts.
It's pretty surface level but it's where I got my feelings at the time.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Does scum!NoPowerOverMe really pursue a vanity wagon on Penguin while he has a perfectly viable counterwagon in Kazyan?
I guess the flaw in that theory is what if they're both scum, but I don't see a lot of people thinking that.
Lunar, can you expand on your maybe-town read on Kazyan for me please?
Also unrelated sidenote: I have a feeling 2ndchosen is being scum leaned simply for not having as much content as other players.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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alsoIn post 485, PenguinPower wrote:
Pretty wrong.In post 483, Gamma Emerald wrote:how wrong would it be to TR ben for that thing that just happened
it's not like there isn't a dearth of other things to get a read off of him for-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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How do you feel about Gamma's place on your wagon?In post 488, Kazyan wrote:2ndchosen1's position is the most interesting of the 'lean town' group, I feel. 2nd pointed out my mistake after Alchemist did, and it would have been really easy to join the wagon on me. But it would have been too easy, and that a 2ndchosenScum would have realized that. It's not super clear.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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also like he's actively trying to contribute to wagons so at least there's thatIn post 539, NoPowerOverMe wrote:I find a contradictive that penguin complains about a lack of wagons yet does not want to be active.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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you don't?In post 651, NoPowerOverMe wrote:Now that I think about it, Alchemist was extremly lurky that game and I don't see that here.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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In post 671, Papa Zito wrote:I'm going to do a quick Alchemist iso because I don't understand the hate on that slot.
also I think these were scum posts but it seems like people don't want to elim here todayIn post 672, Papa Zito wrote:Hmm. His iso is such a mixed bag. I'll wait for a claim to opine further.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I don't think it's unlikely that the Alchemist wagon is all town, regardless of Alchemist's alignment
the wagon built quickly and sketchily, and I was very purposeful about not actually building a case on alchemist
people basically just shifted there reads there because I said so enough times
That's something that townies who are unsure what to do do
scum are gonna stay far away from that wagon if alchemist is town, like far far away, just naturally there's not gonna be anyway for them to get on in a way that they feel will be natural, whereas I feel like a lot of the 'unconscious sheeping' and even some of the conscious sheeping by Kazyan is townie. most scum's first instinct is to not look like they are just sheeping
a scum reaction to that wagon (again assuming Alch is town) looks a lot more like Papa Zito's I reckon, or possibly Hayker, although Hayker's was more of a non reaction-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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If I indulge in this hypothetical world for a moment, let's say I clear the alchemist wagon and double down on my Papa Zito/Hayker being scum reactions theory
that probably leaves a team of papa zito/Hayker/HeWhoSwims
premature solve but I don't think it's unrealistic just based on how the votes have been moving today-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Gamma, I think I've been a bit too suspicious of. There's a very particular thing he tends to do when he's scum that I've seen 0 of here so far, and he's been very active so I think it would have cropped up by now. I'm willing to town bin him.
NPOM whiteknighting Alchemist in a town!Alchemist world isn't necessarily townie, but I do like the way he seems to be having a real effect in changing the wagon rather than just saying empty words to grab town cred later-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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It's weird, both Hayker and HeWhoSwims soft defended Penguin.
HeWhoSwims did so here
Hayker did here here
from recent memory, they are actually the only ones I've seen do that. at least Lunar and NPOM have been pretty against Penguin, I think others have been neutral at best.
Honestly, there is nothing to town read about Penguin's play. While, no, there isn't really anything to scum read either, I find it strange both of these slots find things to town read in Penguin's ISO. Neither really elaborate on what specifically they like or why they feel this way. To me, giving my working hypothesis has been that Penguin vs. NPOM and Lunar is a TvT clash of playstyles, the soft defense of Penguin seems like the type of read that oft comes from scum towards "low hanging fruit" or slots that may be considered easy to eliminate. They toss easy town reads that way without much thought because A. no one really cares about who town reads Penguin Power unless its me since two very loud players scum read him, and B. they figure they can scoop up free town cred just for throwing that read towards him later down the line
this could be a confbiasing point but that's just something odd that stuck out to me as I was rereading-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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People will vote, and we've got time left in the day.
But essentially, I don't think the specific bits and posts they've pulled out of the thread to comment on in their posts is indicative of a town mindset. Rather, they seem to just be looking for things to comment on. And just most recently, I would think Hayker would have something to say about the case against them or the possibility of their own elimination, but nothing. Let's say they missed all that or were low on time, they could have at least offered some input on what they thought about the E-1 wagon at the time or whether anyone on the wagon was scummy. Their last two posts were basically just coming in and saying "we've got an E-1 wagon" and "we should get a claim before ending the day." While earlier in their ISO is full of questions, I see the same pattern of more looking for things to say rather than engaging with the thread proper-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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yes it's badIn post 707, AGar wrote:Semi-related: NPOM's insistence on "Alch is town because I oppose this wagon and any time I oppose a Day 1 wagon, I'm right" and then providing two games to say that that's enough to be indicative is both :chef's kiss: for small sample size and also very bad.
scummy? ehh-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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and tbh alchemist is still scummy
yes I have not cased him
but I do think the wagon on him tends towards clean regardless of his alignment. Like he could be town, but also his reaction to both the Hayker wagon and his own is weird. He refused to claim because no one had states there reasoning, but doesn't really do any deeper dive into the people who wagoned him and who might've been most suspicious. It just seems strange coming from town to not look at that further, after all the entire wagon on him can't be scum.
And idk his reaction to the Hayker case is just kinda classic "well I have to lend this some credence because it's my only viable counterwagon at this stage but also I need some plausible deniability if/when it flips town"-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivor
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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