Newbie 2004: Trash Panada Hour. Redux! GAME OVER

[lilith2013]

VOTE: formerfish mafia addicts should be quicklynched so they become less addicted

[lilith2013]

And gibus - that was a fast one as well. Do I sense a grudge?

Well no, I see the future.

haha i scum, suq it!

Ah shit I got rickrolled

[lilith2013]

Heh, already seeing some prior history hm.

Well, hey folks. First time pbf Mafia player, did a couple irl and Salem games before but nothing regular. I tend to sit back and watch the happenings for a bit at first, so not voting just yet. Open to Lady, love to hear why you/fish might want us to vote Brass. And gibus - that was a fast one as well. Do I sense a grudge?

feathers, what’s pbf?

As votato said, our votes aren’t serious at this stage, we’re kind of just throwing them around until someone seems suspicious

[lilith2013]

VOTE: formerfish mafia addicts should be quicklynched so they become less addicted

how heroic of you. save them from themselves!

Yes exactly

[lilith2013]

I'll get a profile pic up as soon as I can figure out how to wrangle this forum software.. don't usually use those much as of late.

User control panel (link in the top left) -> profile -> edit avatar. Your image needs to be 120wx100h pixels. You can upload directly from your computer or from a url.

[lilith2013]

[lilith2013]

Hmm formerfish has apparently confirmed his new role PM but not posted?

[lilith2013]

VOTE: gibus

[lilith2013]

well ideally you progress towards finding out who. My point though is that since we have no content so far, it would be really bad to have a deadline in 36 hours. you should share your thoughts and vote based on them. its ok to be wrong, but sharing your thoughts is good to get the game moving, and is a way to help convince others that youre town. if you decide youre wrong, you can always change your mind later.

@lilith, why hop on the gibus wagon?

I wanted to see how people reacted to my vote

Mmh, alright. Just a way to prep the game fully with thought contributions before NKs start I suppose.

Well, my current impressions:
I talked about trusting votato earlier, their behavior still holds I think. Giving pro-town advice, calling out disruptive behavior, asking people to justify stances etc.
Freddie too, maybe. Why did Formerfish say to ask you why he voted Brass in the original day 1, by the way, do you know?

Gibus.. is sus. I was reading some guides and games and it seems one of the tells for mafia is changing votes quickly without conviction.. it's almost like he just wants anyone to get lynched and doesn't care who. But then again could just be impatience with rvs (which is also supposed to be mafia behavior?).
Also, Ironcat, Formerfish, and Lilith haven't been posting much recently or just did it to vote bandwagon, and mafia is supposed to want to lurk more iirc to not draw attention? So I guess I'm keeping my vote on Lilith for now even though I initially did it for a silly rvs reason.

^^^ this is a reaction I’m interested in.
- you call gibus suspicious but are also fencesitty about it
- then you say you are now voting me seriously for being on the wagon of someone you think is suspicious

Can you explain why 1) you are voting me and not the other two “lurkers”? 2) why you are voting me for “lurking” over gibus whom you think is suspicious for actual reasons? (“Lurking” in quotes because I’ve been posting and so has iamironcat, and I don’t think lack of wallposts this early is alignment indicative)

[lilith2013]

Gibus seems too sloppy to be suspicious but it could be an act.

I’m suspicious that Lilith is a little more experienced then she’s letting on. I’m not sure why she jumped on the gibus wagon either. I’d love to hear an explanation since it could be AI.

I wanted to see how people reacted to my vote

What do you mean by “more experienced than I’m letting on”?

[lilith2013]

And @lilith you are posting only a little more then @iamironcat. It might not be AI but it seems interesting to me you jumped to protect ironcat so quickly.

I mean, we’ve both posted so I don’t really think you can say either of us were lurking. And regardless, this early I don’t think it’s AI. The only reason I didn’t include formerfish in this is because he hasn’t actually posted.

Can you answer my question about me being “more experienced than I’m letting on”? Why is that something you are suspicious of?

[lilith2013]

I'm happy to answer theory questions, votato seems to have it well in hand though so I haven't felt the need to write up long-winded explanations. If you feel like there are questions still out there that haven't been addressed that I should be answering, please point those out to me and I can write stuff up.

My main goal thus far has been to get us out of RVS, which I think I've effectively done with my gibus vote. Do you disagree?

[lilith2013]

well ideally you progress towards finding out who. My point though is that since we have no content so far, it would be really bad to have a deadline in 36 hours. you should share your thoughts and vote based on them. its ok to be wrong, but sharing your thoughts is good to get the game moving, and is a way to help convince others that youre town. if you decide youre wrong, you can always change your mind later.

@lilith, why hop on the gibus wagon?

I wanted to see how people reacted to my vote

Mmh, alright. Just a way to prep the game fully with thought contributions before NKs start I suppose.

Well, my current impressions:
I talked about trusting votato earlier, their behavior still holds I think. Giving pro-town advice, calling out disruptive behavior, asking people to justify stances etc.
Freddie too, maybe. Why did Formerfish say to ask you why he voted Brass in the original day 1, by the way, do you know?

Gibus.. is sus. I was reading some guides and games and it seems one of the tells for mafia is changing votes quickly without conviction.. it's almost like he just wants anyone to get lynched and doesn't care who. But then again could just be impatience with rvs (which is also supposed to be mafia behavior?).
Also, Ironcat, Formerfish, and Lilith haven't been posting much recently or just did it to vote bandwagon, and mafia is supposed to want to lurk more iirc to not draw attention? So I guess I'm keeping my vote on Lilith for now even though I initially did it for a silly rvs reason.

^^^ this is a reaction I’m interested in.
- you call gibus suspicious but are also fencesitty about it
- then you say you are now voting me seriously for being on the wagon of someone you think is suspicious

Can you explain why 1) you are voting me and not the other two “lurkers”? 2) why you are voting me for “lurking” over gibus whom you think is suspicious for actual reasons? (“Lurking” in quotes because I’ve been posting and so has iamironcat, and I don’t think lack of wallposts this early is alignment indicative)

@votato she’s defending ironcat in #2 of her “can you explain”...and i meant ”that’sfair” as a figure of speech, as in, “you’ve made a valid point” and ”I was in the wrong” or “that is a valid point”.

I don't really think I'm defending ironcat at all, I was using the word lurkers because feathers was using that word to refer to specific people, but I wanted to point out that I also don't agree with the categorization of those people as lurkers.

[lilith2013]

Only two scum in this game bud

[lilith2013]

What is your “solve” based on?

[lilith2013]

What is your “solve” based on?

I can see how this can come more from scum than from town.

Why do you say that?

[lilith2013]

Hi friends, apologies for lack of postings. Work has blown up in my face. I will try to be on later tonight, and failing that, tomorrow night.

[lilith2013]

Am currently catching up, please refer to the below:

Hi friends, apologies for lack of postings. Work has blown up in my face. I will try to be on later tonight, and failing that, tomorrow night.

Can I make a request for your posts? they're a bit difficult to read because you put all the text all together in one block. It would be a lot easier for others to read if you split separate trains of thought into their own paragraphs. Alternatively, splitting them into some kind of outline format like dashes or bullet points would also do the job (lmk if you'd like instructions on how to use bulleted lists on this forum).

[lilith2013]

thanks

[lilith2013]

This is simply a list of people who are active. Not a good list

In case you missed it:

Haven't heard from lillili, Formerfish.. maybe I'm blind and they've posted, I've only seen 2 posts from fish so far - but again, I'm blind.

How can anyone add these guys to any suspicion list when they've only posted < 2 times?

FOS votato

I think there was miscommunication here - I had the same thought as votato which was that you were scumreading everyone in your list of 5 people. instead it just seems that you have organized the list from scummiest to least scummy or vice versa. Are you still suspicious of votato now?

I think Ironcat is just phrasing his ideas in a different way right.. seems like his 'reads' is just for a lack of positive evidence aka 'people who have posted/voted enough to be analyzed, but not cleared for townspeople yet'. He doesn't actually mean he already thinks over half of the group is strongly mafia.

Honestly I'm beginning to think Ironcat's a townsperson now. His method is pretty wack but he really believes in it, and has been really active and not afraid to push opinions and names out there, even if they're getting really controversial. I feel like a mafia member doesn't really want to do that.

Hopefully this doesn't end up biting me in the back..

I think scum would play the game close to the chest and not post out suspicions this early (?).
That being said, I've played this game on other places and this has a different feel like the whole RVS thing. On other places, people get really worked out with that but I personally find that fine.

I can't believe I'm saying this but Freddie is my town read atm but this opinion might change.
I'll try to gather more town reads when possible.

why can't you believe you're saying this? It seems like you're saying you should be townreading feathers based on his post but you don't want to for some unknown reason. comes off as fencesitty.

What is your “solve” based on?

Elimination. I townread feathers, freddie and ironcat. Not sure about votato, but his vote on the mod for taking away his opportunity to be scum looks slightly convincing.

You eliminated the active people and suspect the people who havent voted much. Holy shit, you've cracked this game wide open.

Pushing to lynch any of the SEs is not a good look on you. It kinda makes it seem like you are just wanting to make us look bad in front of all the impressionable newbies. Are you the pied piper coming to take them all out of town to murder them? I think you have an ulterior motive to your list.

I can see how this can come more from scum than from town.

How does someone questioning your naked solve where youve eliminated active people and have left the three SEs as your POE come more from scum than town. If youre right you need to convince us to follow you and vote one of your three, doing that means that people are going to ask how you came to your conclusions. Not what you are saying. Thats bullshit.

It had nothing to do with the fact that you three are SE. The response I expected from you and lilith was just brushing it off as if it was rvs garbage, and from the three townreads some speculation on it so I can search for possible scumreads from them. Obviously I don't fully townread them and I think I've mentioned how it's meaningless for me to do so in D1.

I think there's a disconnect between you expecting a response of "oh this is RVS" when we were no longer in RVS and at that point I think most people were taking posts at face value. Also, why didn't you mention brass in your expected reaction list?

also the things you guys town read me for are very easy to fake as scum

I like that votato is not afraid to push against people townreading him easily.

tinfoil hat theory: formerfish/ironcat scum pair. their back and forth so far is just theater.

Yeah I had this thought too. the argument seems overblown, like they are both really angry at each other in a way that comes across as exaggerated.

also the things you guys town read me for are very easy to fake as scum

I guess.. I don't really know a lot of nuanced techniques like some are doing here, I'm just trying to help with the process of elimination people are talking about. I might just wait for you guys to figure something out if I can't then give my vote as a +1 to help that way. Though I think you're more town for pointing out what you just said. (You could be trying to reverse-psychology that but I don't want to go down that rabbit hole, heh.)

Its real easy for scum to hide behind bad play if you let scummy plays go as just bad play

Yeah I think I agree with this. I'm not sure of anyone being mafia but Gibus is one of the only people I can find good reasons to suspect rn, just kinda tripping a lot of flags. I know that everything he's doing from the vote switching/spamming to the mason reveals could just be inexperience but it's kind of a lot together, and I don't know how much I want to assume inexperience, because even the people who aren't labeled as SEs like votato and freddie are talking like they know what they're doing. Also Fish seems like he's very experienced and he was suspecting Gibus immediately as well.

Okay wait before anyone else votes I just want to point out Gibus is one vote away from being lynched. Rn Lilith, Brass, Copykat, and me are voting him. I still suspect him but I don't want a townsperson to get rush lynched without people talking it out first, this is kinda exactly what I was worried about with the 10 day Day 1 limit.

Feathers seems to be very transparent with his thought process overall. I like them for town.

gibus, just accept that outing town PRs is bad for town and move on. this discussion is not productive at all.

I think this is also probably town motivated to try to end the PR discussion and keep the game progressing beyond theory talk. putting votato in my townleans as well.

[lilith2013]

realizing now that I probably should have split up the quotes into a few separate posts but ah well

[lilith2013]

I think people have been really quick to write off gibus as "newbtown" but I don't really see much progression in his posts or attempts to solve the game. His wagon disintegrated scarily fast. Is everyone just agreeing on "newbtown" here?

[lilith2013]

Regardless of gibus' alignment I think there is probably one scum on his wagon

[lilith2013]

brass/copykat/feathers

I'm townreading feathers, so one out of brass/copykat

will reread both ISOs now

[lilith2013]

@votato, can you explain why you think gibus is newbtown based on this other game? I read some of his posts there and he comes across as .... surprisingly un-newb there.

[lilith2013]

I didn't mention brass since he didn't respond to me.

That's fair

The game was in RVS prior to #153.

I disagree, we left RVS around post 100. votes were no longer random and people were forming bandwagons based on suspicions.

[lilith2013]

ISO is short for "Isolation," which refers to looking at only posts made by a single player (or a set of players if you're trying to look at interactions). Here's how to do it:

Scroll to the bottom of the page. Under the Quick Reply box, in the center, should be a dropdown titled "Display posts by user." Currently the dropdown next to this title is set to "All users." You can click this dropdown and select a specific player and then click "Go" to only see this player's posts. If you want to look at posts made by more than one player at the same time, just click the [ + ] sign to the right to add another dropdown and select the other player you want to see. You can do this for as many players as you want, just keep clicking the new [ + ] button to the right each time and selecting the next player you want to add to your view. Then click "Go" and you will see a version of the game thread that only shows posts made by the players you selected.

Alternatively, if you are only looking for one person's posts, you can click on "Activity overview" on the bottom right of the page and then on the page that opens up, under the "Posts" column, click the number that is in the same row as the player whose posts you are trying to see. I think this is easier than the other way if you're on mobile/if you have a hard time clicking into the dropdowns.

[lilith2013]

For example, if I'm trying to look at your ISO, I could go to the "Display posts by user" dropdown and select "feathers" then hit "Go." Or I could click Activity overview, then the "43" under posts that is in the same row as your name.

[lilith2013]

For example, if I'm trying to look at your ISO, I could go to the "Display posts by user" dropdown and select "feathers" then hit "Go." Or I could click Activity overview, then the "43" under

"Posts"

that is in the same row as your name.

ebwop

[lilith2013]

just adding a blank line between paragraphs should do the trick. we are spoiled by modern word processors.

yeah this is fine, I'm just offering bulleted lists if anyone felt the need to be fancy

[lilith2013]

they seem likely town, but i find it interesting how vota and bass are leading the votes. Perhaps we should trust them after all but I'm a paranoid android and I'm not one of trusting when it comes to mafia games.

Do you think scum would be attempting to establish themselves (or at least one of themselves) as a townleader from the getgo?

why can't you believe you're saying this? It seems like you're saying you should be townreading feathers based on his post but you don't want to for some unknown reason. comes off as fencesitty.

I suspected them quite early in the game when we were mostly in RVS mode. But I've seen them posting in a way which makes it looks town. So I'm quite sure of it. I'd come with a more reasonable approach when possible. I'm supposed to be WFH after all ;p

why did you suspect feathers early on?

[lilith2013]

I'm unsure of these folks so maybe they're town after all. Reverse list of possible town in order ~
1. Freddie
2. Potato the unidoggo
3. bass
4. feathers
5. kat
6. gibus
7. Lilith

Ofc I could be VERY wrong in this list but derp, just trying to eliminate my suspicion here

Suspicious of lilith because fishyman behave really weird after I suspected her.

His progression on me is really weird, like at first he throws a bunch of shade on my slot and then turns around and defends me to you and gibus. I think he may be trying to WK me now.

Where is fish on this list?

[lilith2013]

I think copykat's switch from defending gibus ("scum wouldn't be trying to out masons in this thread") to attacking a "scumslip" feel contrived to me, like he is trying to get on the bandwagon as fast as possible and needs something to attack gibus for. Typically I think scum are more likely to attack something like that so suddenly and aggressively.

VOTE: copykat

I think this is L-2

[lilith2013]

@votato, can you explain why you think gibus is newbtown based on this other game? I read some of his posts there and he comes across as .... surprisingly un-newb there.

oh i missed this. im not sure if i can, since its ongoing. i agree that he comes off as newbie-er here, so could be playing it up to get brownie points.

i agree that ironcat is being really strange. but some of it is definitely due to language barrier. i also really dislike people who are so formally logical, so it could be a personal bias thing on my end.

Ah shit, I didn't realize it was ongoing. my bad, we should not speak of it again.

[lilith2013]

what language barrier are you referring to?

[lilith2013]

their english seems... pretty english to me? and so does yours?

[lilith2013]

I'm unsure of these folks so maybe they're town after all. Reverse list of possible town in order ~
1. Freddie
2. Potato the unidoggo
3. bass
4. feathers
5. kat
6. gibus
7. Lilith

Ofc I could be VERY wrong in this list but derp, just trying to eliminate my suspicion here

Suspicious of lilith because fishyman behave really weird after I suspected her.

His progression on me is really weird, like at first he throws a bunch of shade on my slot and then turns around and defends me to you and gibus. I think he may be trying to WK me now.

Where is fish on this list?

When did throw a bunch of shade on your slot?

I thought he did but I just went to go find it and apparently he did not, so I must have been mixing up posts with someone else

[lilith2013]

Oh @lilith I just realized you can also do the iso thing by clicking on the “iso” beside people’s post numbers! So there’s quite a couple ways to do it heh. Honestly I’ve only been using discord and reddit before finding this site and haven’t used forums in a long time.. there are just so many fiddly options and features lying around.

Ah yes, you can do it this way too!

Let me know if there are any other forum doodads I can help explain

[lilith2013]

tinfoil hat theory: formerfish/ironcat scum pair. their back and forth so far is just theater.

I don't like this turnaround to the vote, actually, though.

UNVOTE:

Gibus could be noob, but, I don't know I like being on this wagon if Copykat looks so... mercenary may be the right word?

Wdym by mercenary?

I mean, he seems to be jumping from a full scum team guess to a full move off the same guess too quickly for my liking.

Almost like it doesn't matter who is lynched outside of two people with that speed.

Need more information before the EOD (End of Day) for sure, too.

I responded in 381

[lilith2013]

oops sorry I had some multiquotes loaded in my queue apparently lmao

[lilith2013]

Yeah I had this thought too. the argument seems overblown, like they are both really angry at each other in a way that comes across as exaggerated.

I'm not mad, angry, triggered, miffed, rustled, annoyed or any other adjective you want to use. Full stop.

I don't like when people act like they know me and can read my mental state in a few posts in an online forum game. That's insulting in so many ways. People should keep those types of terms out of their mouths because more often then not they end up sounding more like Mike Tyson than Niel Tyson, ya feel?

And I told people to ask about me for a few reasons. The first is that I want to see if the person does it and who they ask and how they do it. As I've said Brass is the only person I really know in this game, so it would make sense to ask him. Second objective is to see what Brass says about me and his read on me so far in relation to people's reads.

So me telling you to ask about me serves the purpose, to me at least, in getting a read on you and how stubborn and potentially biased against me. It has the added benefit of possibly getting a read on Brass, but I don't think you really have any interest in reading me correctly. Picking me as a target is a bad choice though. It's going to end worse for you than it ever will for me.

1) mafia is a mental and perception game. If you're going to be an asshole and get on everyone's cases when people discuss what your actions imply about your motivations, then you may want to reconsider playing this game. this is now the.. second? time you've been an asshole to someone because they were looking at how your posts represent your motivations, which is literally the point of the game.
2) I haven't even tried to ascribe emotions to you in the first place. here I'm saying that you are

acting angry

, not that you're angry.
3) if you're not actually upset when you've made these posts, then you're just being way more of an asshole than you need to be.
4) where did you tell me to "ask about you"?
5) I haven't "targeted" you at all, I think it's interesting that you seem to think I've picked you out of the crowd when I'm literally voting someone else and have interacted with multiple other slots.
6) I'm not particularly interested in engaging with people who are being assholes as a principle, but I'll happily be an asshole right back since you seem pretty determined.

I'm unsure of these folks so maybe they're town after all. Reverse list of possible town in order ~
1. Freddie
2. Potato the unidoggo
3. bass
4. feathers
5. kat
6. gibus
7. Lilith

Ofc I could be VERY wrong in this list but derp, just trying to eliminate my suspicion here

Suspicious of lilith because fishyman behave really weird after I suspected her.

His progression on me is really weird, like at first he throws a bunch of shade on my slot and then turns around and defends me to you and gibus. I think he may be trying to WK me now.

Where is fish on this list?

When did throw a bunch of shade on your slot?

I thought he did but I just went to go find it and apparently he did not, so I must have been mixing up posts with someone else

Am I the "he" being talked about here? I don't wanna pull a Carly but I hate the pronoun game.

I thought

formerfish threw shade at me

but I just went to go find

the posts where formerfish threw shade at me

and apparently

formerfish did not throw shade at me

, so I must have been mixing up posts with someone else

[lilith2013]

I can't decide if I think formerfish is just being an asshole or if he's trying to cover up his reactions by being an asshole

[lilith2013]

Okay I assumed that since your post was in response to a quote of me and that you didn’t specify that the latter parts were directed to someone else, that these paragraphs were also directed at me. I’m not sure how I was supposed to differentiate that these latter paragraphs were not in fact intended for me. In the context of what was a fairly offhand comment I made, this post as a whole seemed like a really aggressive reaction and that either you are the type of player to react that aggressively to everything, or that you were doing it deliberately because you felt that an aggressive reaction would throw people off the scent. Your posts come off as abrasive and I don’t really get whatever “shtick” you’re going for, but I’ll admit that I misunderstood the intention of your post.

[lilith2013]

I don’t remember who I was thinking of, I’ll reread tomorrow

[lilith2013]

It was a list of people on the gibus wagon..

[lilith2013]

I'm unsure of these folks so maybe they're town after all.

Reverse list of possible town in order

~
1. Freddie
2. Potato the unidoggo
3. bass
4. feathers
5. kat
6. gibus
7. Lilith

Ofc I could be VERY wrong in this list but derp, just trying to eliminate my suspicion here

Suspicious of lilith because fishyman behave really weird after I suspected her.

So Freddie is scummiest?

Ironcat explicitly calls out suspicion of me so I think it’s pretty clear they mean freddie is towniest

[lilith2013]

Your posts come off as abrasive and I don’t really get whatever “shtick” you’re going for

I get that, but i can't exactly explain what im doing or it loses all value. Asking people to ask about me put the onus on them to inquire about me and would probably figure out what my shtick was as soon as Brass decides to comment on it.

Or meta dive me and read some of my theories on newbies and how I play them and why.

I could tell you all about myself, but what do you do with hand fed meta?

brass seems to not be able to back you up at all, which is weird but I also can’t imagine why you would act like they know stuff about you if they clearly don’t, so at best I think this is NAI

[lilith2013]

@brass so you’ve only played one game with formerfish before?

[lilith2013]

Also I tried to find what I meant by someone shading me and I think I was thinking about some combination of formerfish’s earlier posts plus freddie’s posts but tbh I think I may have just been delusional at the time.

[lilith2013]

I think copykat's switch from defending gibus ("scum wouldn't be trying to out masons in this thread") to attacking a "scumslip" feel contrived to me, like he is trying to get on the bandwagon as fast as possible and needs something to attack gibus for. Typically I think scum are more likely to attack something like that so suddenly and aggressively.

VOTE: copykat

I think this is L-2

why would scum!me pass on the opportunity to vote gibus for calling out masons?

Off the top of my head I can think of a bunch of reasons for scum!you defending gibus here:
- towncred for defending gibus if the wagon ends in a lynch and he flips town
- in a world with town!gibus, gibus probably feels more warmly towards you for defending him when everyone else seems to be angry with him (ie pocketing)
- could be trying to set up your team so that one person is on and on person is off the wagon
- you’re not trying to have gibus be the D1 lynch and instead are hoping to direct the lynch onto a more influential or experienced player and/or are saving a gibus mislynch for future days
- you may not have realized that this was going to turn into a real wagon/underestimated the momentum to his slot
- gibus is your partner and you’re defending him for what amounts to a faked “town”tell

[lilith2013]

Hola TOWN FOLKS! o/

Who's the biggest suspect if copykat flips out town?
If they're indeed mafia, who would you suspect next?

These are good questions, I’ll think about it and get back to you

[lilith2013]

Off the top of my head I can think of a bunch of reasons for scum!you defending gibus here:- towncred for defending gibus if the wagon ends in a lynch and he flips town- in a world with town!gibus, gibus probably feels more warmly towards you for defending him when everyone else seems to be angry with him (ie pocketing)- could be trying to set up your team so that one person is on and on person is off the wagon- you’re not trying to have gibus be the D1 lynch and instead are hoping to direct the lynch onto a more influential or experienced player and/or are saving a gibus mislynch for future days- you may not have realized that this was going to turn into a real wagon/underestimated the momentum to his slot- gibus is your partner and you’re defending him for what amounts to a faked “town”tell

but then why make the switch to voting gibus after?

I don't get it. I thought gibus was town. then I thought he scum slipped so I voted for him not realizing it put him at L-1, talked to him about the "slip" and cleared up what he meant, realized what I thought was a slip wasn't and unvoted him.

but everybody wants to lynch me for that lol and when I try to interact with the people voting for me and provide explanations they are all but ignored.

You can’t just say that you did this as if you were in a vacuum though.

Situationally, you were defending gibus; you suddenly voted him after 3 or 4 people were pressuring him on the mason thing; and you unvoted him once the bandwagon died.

[lilith2013]

in the last game i was in with lilith, she staged a big day 1 fight with her scumbuddy to distance. It read a lot like her fight with fish here. A silly reason to argue, a way overdone fight, and then a really sudden resolution.

And you think this would be a strategy I’d repeat after it failed pretty definitively in G&R?

[lilith2013]

but everybody wants to lynch me for that lol

Also, who’s “everybody”? Only 3 people are voting you

[lilith2013]

in the last game i was in with lilith, she staged a big day 1 fight with her scumbuddy to distance. It read a lot like her fight with fish here. A silly reason to argue, a way overdone fight, and then a really sudden resolution.

And you think this would be a strategy I’d repeat after it failed pretty definitively in G&R?

yes. What makes you say it failed? The vigs all hitting town say it worked.

I mean it wasn’t a good long-term strategy because on D2 people noticed that we basically never interacted again.

My resolution to this argument was “I thought formerfish was being a huge asshole to me for no reason so I was an asshole back, turns out it wasn’t meant for me so he wasn’t being as big of an asshole as I thought, but I still think he’s needlessly being an asshole.”

[lilith2013]

I think at least one scum is an SE.

Where are you getting this from?

[lilith2013]

Situationally, you were defending gibus; you suddenly voted him after 3 or 4 people were pressuring him on the mason thing; and you unvoted him once the bandwagon died.

Only brass had voted for him so "3 or 4" people were not pressuring him. votato was talking to him about it but I wouldn't call it pressure.

but fuck it. I'm done explaining my gibus vote

Okay then

[lilith2013]

in the last game i was in with lilith, she staged a big day 1 fight with her scumbuddy to distance. It read a lot like her fight with fish here. A silly reason to argue, a way overdone fight, and then a really sudden resolution.

And you think this would be a strategy I’d repeat after it failed pretty definitively in G&R?

yes. What makes you say it failed? The vigs all hitting town say it worked.

I mean it wasn’t a good long-term strategy because on D2 people noticed that we basically never interacted again.

My resolution to this argument was “I thought formerfish was being a huge asshole to me for no reason so I was an asshole back, turns out it wasn’t meant for me so he wasn’t being as big of an asshole as I thought, but I still think he’s needlessly being an asshole.”

a) the playerbase is weaker. B) you can say "i wouldn't do that again" c) I'm the only person who was there to see that fight, and maybe you assumed i wouldn't notice

Alright. My reaction here was genuine, but I can’t force you to see that.

[lilith2013]

ironcat kinda depends on fish. does scum!ironcat pick an early fight with fish?
If fish is scum, I could see an ironcat/fish scum pair

Why? Whoever has an early fight with someone somehow increases the chances that they are scum partners if one of them is scum? Also ironcat has a strong vote on fish, which won't be optimal if they were scum partners. What if a wagon started against fish? Ironcat can't unvote without suspicion and if fish does get hammered, mafia would be losing.

"bussing" (throwing your scumbuddy under the bus) is a pretty common tactic. an early vote on a scumbuddy can help to distance you.

Just to add on - lynching mafia on D1 can actually hurt town because they have less to work with in terms of analyzing how the dead mafia interacted with other players and determining who is most suspicious based on that. Bussing is a fairly common strategy on this site, so don’t expect that players who are attacking each other are always the opposite alignment.

[lilith2013]

437 does make me feel slightly better about gibus though

[lilith2013]

gibus, can you explain your most recent readslist?

[lilith2013]

My resolution to this argument was “I thought formerfish was being a huge asshole to me for no reason so I was an asshole back, turns out it wasn’t meant for me so he wasn’t being as big of an asshole as I thought, but I still think he’s needlessly being an asshole.”

[lilith2013]

My read list right now from town to scum

[gibus, votato, feathers]

[CopyKat, ironcat]

[brassherald, Freddie]

[Formerfish, lilith2013]

CopyKat -> His initial townread on votato made sense. I like how he hopped on to my wagon when I made an unclear post which could've been seen as a scum slip without hesitation. He hasn't been anti-town in any of his posts. He hasn't been here for long so with the current information I put him in blue.

ironcat -> His paranoia in RVS strikes me as town. I don't agree with his recent list (#368) but his ISO seems to me like he is trying to help as town (apart from his fights). I didn't know about "bussing", and since I scumread fish, I townread ironcat a little bit more.

brassherald -> I'm neutral because he hasn't posted much and I don't like how he voted copykat for hopping on the wagon (I found copykat's reason sensible) while he hopped onto my wagon because my posts seem "off".

Freddie -> I have't seen much of him. Hence neutral.

Formerfish -> #227 for scumread.

lilith2013 -> I didn't like your interaction with fish. You didn't mention any of his posts in your recap (#351) and you accuse him of first throwing shade on your slot and then WhiteKnighting you, neither of which I think he did (I didn't see #412 when I posted this, I take this back. I now put you in yellow.). I also disagree with #372, where you hop on the copykat wagon because he hopped on my wagon (sensible reason).

Can you explain your tiers please?
Green = townreads
Red = scumreads
what are yellow and blue?

[lilith2013]

There are a couple of people attacking each other. Say if one of them turns out scum, wouldn't we immediately suspect the attacker?

If someone leads a lynch on scum, I think it's natural to assume that the people who lynched scum are town because they wouldn't want to lynch their own teammate and would instead try to defend their teammate from being lynched.. Bussing subverts the natural assumption so we can no longer assume that scum would always protect their teammate from being lynched.

[lilith2013]

sorry for the double period there, I didn't mean that to be sassy

[lilith2013]

thank you

[lilith2013]

Fish behaved really strange after my vote on her.

Ironcat, you keep saying this, can you explain why you think so? iirc he didn't have any behavior before you voted me so there's not really a set of posts for comparison. I think his behavior overall is strange and overaggressive, but I don't think it has anything in particular to do with me and I'm not really sure where you're getting this from.

[lilith2013]

If someone leads a lynch on scum, I think it's natural to assume that the people who lynched scum are town because they wouldn't want to lynch their own teammate and would instead try to defend their teammate from being lynched.. Bussing subverts the natural assumption so we can no longer assume that scum would always protect their teammate from being lynched.

Last I checked, the votes on copykat so this wouldn't work for my case if you were right.

The point is that you can’t assume two people arguing will always include one town. I’m not applying it to any particular case in this game.

Ironcat, you keep saying this, can you explain why you think so? iirc he didn't have any behavior before you voted me so there's not really a set of posts for comparison. I think his behavior overall is strange and overaggressive, but I don't think it has anything in particular to do with me and I'm not really sure where you're getting this from.

Well, I haven't played a game with him apart from this one. So in my perception, he got aggressive after my suspicion of you.

See here:
#190
Voted you. No attacks from my side to fish

204
Talks about me being a celebrity. Starts to get personal after I said "Strange scum move" in the next few posts.

224
OF COURSE it's such a town move to want to lynch someone regardless of their alignment purely based on emotion.

Will post in the next 12-ish hours or so.

What I’m saying is that formerfish hadn’t posted before 190, so I think him choosing to vote you isn’t related to you voting me. Like it’s not like he was being unaggressive before you voted me and then suddenly became aggressive; he just hadn’t posted at all before that.

[lilith2013]

Mafia are able to communicate in their Private Topic at all times.

scum have daytalk

[lilith2013]

I am really confused how you can be scumreading me primarily due to what you think is fish chainsaw defending me. Do you think that scum blatantly defend each other in this game?

[lilith2013]

@ironcat:

If “I’m being buddied with others,” how does that make

me

scum? I’m not the one doing the buddying... like you’re saying that since other people, who you are now townreading, have tried to “buddy me with you” (does this just mean that it’s because they’re scumreading me?) that I must be scum?

Your statement is predicated on freddie being scum, so if they are town and buddying me, how can I be the scummy one for it?

I think you have decided that you’re scumreading me and are making up reasons to do it because you haven’t pointed to anything I’ve actually done as scummy or scum-motivated. And your best argument is that multiple other people are scumreading me so I must be scum. This is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.

[lilith2013]

Also I don’t think buddying means what you think it means. You keep saying freddie is trying to “buddy me and you together” but buddying would mean that freddie is trying to be friendly to us in order to get us to townread them. I believe you are trying to say that other people have pegged me as part of the scumteam with another person - but again, I don’t see how you can point to this and call me scummy for it. Like there’s literally nothing that I’ve actually done that you are pointing to.

[lilith2013]

@ironcat:

I think it’s interesting that iirc multiple people have called me as part of the scumteam but I don’t think any of them are voting me, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s scum in that group. If you’re still only scumreading me for things that other people have done, your read is really stale and doesn’t show genuine progression or attempt to solve the game, because the lack of votes yet proliferation of scumreads on me should be suspicious to you if you’re town. Seems like you’ve basically decided on your scumreads and are making the evidence to fit the read.

[lilith2013]

It probably means something that the wagons have stagnated, I don’t yet know what though. Also reminder to self to look at who is scumreading me and where they’re voting.

Have a very busy day at work, so likely won’t be able to get back and reread for a while.

[lilith2013]

@lilith
I should had mentioned this earlier but the suspicion on you had grown.
I briefly described this in #447
Apart from what I've mentioned above, I think there are a few here that suspect you but why are you mostly highlighting my suspicion?

Because you keeeeep talking about me

[lilith2013]

VOTE: copykat. i agree with brass. its mostly gut, but copykat seems pretty opportunistic hopping on the major wagon, putting it to L-1 without saying anything. I also see nothing in copykats case about scumslippng. Not a strong case against copykat, ill concede, but worth pressuring. I still dont like ironcat, but that might just be due to language barrier.

the reason i voted you is not because you pressured gibus or unvoted. its because you didnt state reasoning for your vote which made it seem very opportunistic. and then i didnt like your ex post reasoning for the vote. you liking gibus' answer seems like you're just backtracking after getting called out. from the beginning it was clearly not a scumslip.

maybe you honestly just saw something that wasnt there, which is why im saying just go on playing and maybe youll do something to convince me you arent scum. your narrative around your voting patterns seems less likely to me than the alternative that i present. you havent addressed my thinking at all. your narrative is parallel and mutually exclusive, but you havent explained why i should reject my narrative and accept yours.

just skimming but I think I agree with all of this. Based on the timing of copykat’s vote and unvote, the “scumslip” and “oh i realized it wasn’t a scumslip nvm jk” reads as a contrived way to get on the wagon quickly and then hop off it quickly

[lilith2013]

I don’t have any completed towngames in the past 4 years. Do you want some of my towngames from when I played before?

[lilith2013]

You keep saying you scumread me and you don’t offer any reasons related to actual content that I have posted. You don’t ask me questions about my thoughts or try to engage - it feels like you’re trying to keep your distance and not directly interact with me even though I’m one of your strongest scumreads. Town strongly scumreading someone wouldn’t do that.

[lilith2013]

That was @ ironcat

VOTE: ironcat

[lilith2013]

I don’t have any completed towngames in the past 4 years. Do you want some of my towngames from when I played before?

sure. i guess you just dont roll town since returning?

copy: thats not a good attitude. in this game, people are gonna suspect you and vote you. most of the time theyll be wrong to do so. but giving up doesnt solve anything.

G&R is my only completed game since returning. Obviously I can’t send you any other games since they would be ongoing.

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=66863
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=65480

[lilith2013]

That was @ironcat, not you votato

[lilith2013]

If you’re still only scumreading me for things that other people have done, your read is really stale and doesn’t show genuine progression or attempt to solve the game, because the lack of votes yet proliferation of scumreads on me should be suspicious to you if you’re town. Seems like you’ve basically decided on your scumreads and are making the evidence to fit the read.

[lilith2013]

Half the things you said about me in your post are wrong and don’t actually reflect what happened. You haven’t engaged with me directly to sort me whatsoever. You respond to me when I directly ask you questions, you respond to my posts disproportionately, but you have made no attempt to progress your read by seeking out my motivations or understanding my perspective. I asked you if you think scum blatantly defend each other, because I think that’s faulty reasoning, and you deflected by saying that actually multiple people have called me scum and that’s why you scumread me.

Scumpoints for voting the person I think is scum? Ok sure.

[lilith2013]

Ironcat and Lilli is my best guess at a TvT argument if there is one.

Can you explain why you think this?

[lilith2013]

I literally directly responded to your post so that’s a blatant misrep

[lilith2013]

fish, explain your vote please?

[lilith2013]

Blegh I’m being a vegetable atm, work has been brutal this week. Wanted to ISO ironcat cause I had some points I wanted to make even if he’s getting replaced. Will post in a bit.

[lilith2013]

Ironcat and Lilli is my best guess at a TvT argument if there is one.

Can you explain why you think this?

[lilith2013]

Half the things you said about me in your post are wrong and don’t actually reflect what happened. You haven’t engaged with me directly to sort me whatsoever. You respond to me when I directly ask you questions, you respond to my posts disproportionately, but you have made no attempt to progress your read by seeking out my motivations or understanding my perspective. I asked you if you think scum blatantly defend each other, because I think that’s faulty reasoning, and you deflected by saying that actually multiple people have called me scum and that’s why you scumread me.

Scumpoints for voting the person I think is scum? Ok sure.

This post is still true for me re: ironcat. I try to have a direct engagement with him and instead of a response to my points, directed to me, he starts announcing why I’m scum to other people. He’s been doing that all game. He has yet to ask me a single question, talk to me about my reads, or otherwise engage directly with me - he’s deflected all of my attempts to engage with his content.

The other thing that bothers me about his read on me is that his original scumread was predicated on Freddie being scum and trying to call out me and ironcat together as a team, and he said that meant freddie and I were a scumteam. He then dropped his scumread of freddie but kept scumreading me for the same reason, even though that reason should have been predicated on freddie being scum and he no longer scumread freddie. If he no longer scumreads freddie and the original reason for scumreading me was that he thought freddie was trying to bus me, then once he townreads freddie the natural conclusion should be that we aren’t bussing, because freddie is the one who called me scum and not the other way around. In other words, I think he’s made up a scumread on me and then forced all of his posts and pushes to fit that read, instead of changing that read based on updated information.

[lilith2013]

That’s about all the effort I can manage atm, will check back in later.

[lilith2013]

You were the one who was calling an ironcat/me team. [Freddie being scum and calling out me and ironcat as a team] is all under the same subject.

[lilith2013]

There’s also other stuff that bothers me but idk how worthwhile it is for me to spend time on putting together arguments when ironcat is being replaced. Maybe will do short summary.

[lilith2013]

It's funny how freddie is saying that filiiping is a mafia move - like that's the last thing they would do.
That being said, if I get killed tonight, investigate Lilith. I have a FOS on them.
It might be possible they would put the blame on Freddie.

FoSing me here even though, once again, the scumread on me was predicated on a scum!Freddie trying to bus me

Idgi, you’re voting for Freddie but you’re also worried they’d be blamed?

Also, this is your afternoon? It’s mine as well! Where are you from?

Valid point here, he’s simultaneously calling Freddie scum/voting Freddie yet also saying town!Freddie would be blamed for a NK. You can’t have it both ways..

If I'm right that lilith's mafia, they could nk me or the others who suspect them and put the blame on Freddie since I suspected them.

Here's how it goes in mafia's mind:

Ok, so Freddie suspects cat and vice versa so let's NK cat and say that Freddie killed cat

idk if that makes sense but its crappy mafia move to kill those who suspects each other so maybe I'm wrong after all

Still voting Freddie here yet the tone and approach to Freddie implies a townread. Again, simultaneously voting/scumreading Freddie and also saying town!Freddie will be blamed for NKs, as if he knows Freddie is town and is just making shit up to pin a scumread on Freddie (and secondarily, me)

[lilith2013]

VOTE:

lilith2013

If I'm right that lilith's mafia, they could nk me or the others who suspect them and put the blame on Freddie since I suspected them.

Here's how it goes in mafia's mind:

Ok, so Freddie suspects cat and vice versa so let's NK cat and say that Freddie killed cat

idk if that makes sense but its crappy mafia move to kill those who suspects each other so maybe I'm wrong after all

If I'm right, then Freddie is "town"

Here he flips his read on Freddie to a townread, but keeps the scumread on me. Again, if his scumread of me depended on scum!Freddie bussing me, then once he townreads Freddie he shouldn’t have a reason to think Freddie is bussing me because Freddie wouldn’t be scum in that scenario, and therefore the scumread on me should also have changed at this point.

[lilith2013]

It was part of an idea I had to draw out scum. I put myself up as bait and say "investigate this person if I get NK'd".

Also I think this is fake.

If you’re trying to draw the NK, announcing who to investigate in the case of your death doesn’t..... do anything. Once you’ve announced who should be investigated, whoever the scumteam is will use that to blame the kill on whoever you named (in this case, me). If you’re truly scumreading me, then you wouldn’t announce to my face that killing you puts suspicion on me, because then scum!me wouldn’t kill you if I actually think suspicion would fall on me. I don’t believe this is a genuine attempt to “bait out” anything, I think ironcat just tried to throw shade on my slot and then had to come up with a reason for why he said those things.

[lilith2013]

Fish, are you still scumreading ironcat?

[lilith2013]

VOTE: Brass

Let's dance.

Do you think brass and ironcat are partners?

[lilith2013]

You just said that you pivoted away from ironcat to find his partner though

[lilith2013]

In your posts to brass you seem to imply that brass and votato are partners, but if that’s the case then ironcat can’t also be scum. I’m trying to understand where you’re coming from with the brass/votato comment if you still think ironcat is scum.

[lilith2013]

Explain please?

[lilith2013]

Ironcat and Lilli is my best guess at a TvT argument if there is one.

Can you explain why you think this?

Also can you answer this question

[lilith2013]

Oh sorry I must have missed it

[lilith2013]

Will catch up after I finish work for the day.

[lilith2013]

@everyone that is townreading votato: why?

VOTE: votato btw

I liked votato’s mid-early posts where he was questioning people townreading him too easily, which is something I think scum would be afraid to do (especially someone newer to the game). Haven’t really seen much since then from that slot that pushes my read one way or the other so I’m still at a townlean. What have you seen that led to you scumreading votato?

[lilith2013]

I don't like his behavior around the gibus wagon--he's scumreading copykat at this point, but doesn't vote for her until the momentum shifts from gibus to her.

It fits into his pattern of behavior so far this game--his posts lack content, and really a lot of his early stuff was just answering questions. I agree that the townreading questioning is something scum could be afraid to do, but I also don't think it's a big risk--it's just a lot of WIFOM tbh. I think votato's general vibe has been pretty cheeky and that he would be comfortable saying something like that.

Oh I didn’t notice the delay in votato voting copykat until after brass did. The other thing I noticed was that the game was getting caught up on this whole mason thing and votato tried to move the game forward and get everyone away from continuing to talk about who (if anyone) were masons, and I thought that wasn’t something scum would do. I’m going to ISO him again and see if I agree that he hasn’t really been trying to progress the game otherwise.

[lilith2013]

freddie is confscum by the way

Sorry what when did this happen?

[lilith2013]

Spoiler: formerfish’s 837

UNVOTE: fish

Here Gib unvotes me.

Fish, what do you think about copykat?

Then asks me how i feel about Copy/Tux

VOTE: CopyKat (Tuxedo Mask)
Back at L-2

Almost immediately votes Tux back to l-2 with no reasoning given.

So I wonder to myself, "Hey dickhead, when did gib ever mention a sr on copy? Put down the bowl and iso this muppet."

So i did, and found this as being the most recent read on copy, a nice blue town lean.

My read list right now from town to scum

[gibus, votato, feathers]

[CopyKat, ironcat]

[brassherald, Freddie]

[Formerfish, lilith2013]

CopyKat -> His initial townread on votato made sense. I like how he hopped on to my wagon when I made an unclear post which could've been seen as a scum slip without hesitation. He hasn't been anti-town in any of his posts. He hasn't been here for long so with the current information I put him in blue.

ironcat -> His paranoia in RVS strikes me as town. I don't agree with his recent list (#368) but his ISO seems to me like he is trying to help as town (apart from his fights). I didn't know about "bussing", and since I scumread fish, I townread ironcat a little bit more.

brassherald -> I'm neutral because he hasn't posted much and I don't like how he voted copykat for hopping on the wagon (I found copykat's reason sensible) while he hopped onto my wagon because my posts seem "off".

Freddie -> I have't seen much of him. Hence neutral.

Formerfish -> #227 for scumread.

lilith2013 -> I didn't like your interaction with fish. You didn't mention any of his posts in your recap (#351) and you accuse him of first throwing shade on your slot and then WhiteKnighting you, neither of which I think he did (I didn't see #412 when I posted this, I take this back. I now put you in yellow.). I also disagree with #372, where you hop on the copykat wagon because he hopped on my wagon (sensible reason).

Huh, where did that vote on copy even come from?

Interested to see gibus’ response to this and I think this is probably a town line of questioning/thought from formerfish, calling out inconsistency in reads

[lilith2013]

The initial townread on him may have been influenced by his townread on me, and that was a naive mistake from my part.

? But you originally said you were townreading him because he voted you. Where did copykat say he was townreading you that influenced your read on him?

[lilith2013]

He did push on copy's slot with good reason, did go after lilith and fish and he strongly townread feathers.

The scumreads on me and fish didn’t really go anywhere though, like he didn’t actively engage with either one of us or even copykat really to further develop the reads, and he didn’t really “go after” anyone in terms of hard pushes, so it seems he is playing the game at arm’s length. I think wavesarc made some good points - I don’t see a lot of pushing or gamesolving in votato’s posts.

[lilith2013]

VOTE: votato

[lilith2013]

You interacted with copykat a total of one time when explaining your vote on him and then never talked to that slot again

[lilith2013]

I need more content from that slot to properly evaluate.

Like you say this, but then aren’t proactive about getting more content from copykat to develop your read

[lilith2013]

Yeah, this is where I said you explained your vote on him but that’s it. Where else did you engage with copykat?

[lilith2013]

I don’t think this set of posts proves me wrong.. I missed a couple posts earlier on, but my point is that you said “I need more content from this slot to develop my read” in 596 and then didn’t try to get more content from the slot so that you could do that. Like you just wrote off this slot and haven’t attempted to interact with copykat or tuxedo since 596.

And my original point still stands, that you’re not really hard pushing anyone, even the people you’re scumreading and voting. Like even when you’re “pushing” copykat, you’re telling him to be more towny because you didn’t really feel strongly about scumreading him. I also don’t really see anything in the posts you quoted that I would categorize as engagement that helps you sort his slot.

Where are the posts where you interacted with tuxedo?

[lilith2013]

Is that @ me or votato?

[lilith2013]

The scumreads on me and fish didn’t really go anywhere though, like he didn’t actively engage with either one of us or even copykat really to further develop the reads, and he didn’t really “go after” anyone in terms of hard pushes, so it seems he is playing the game at arm’s length. I think wavesarc made some good points - I don’t see a lot of pushing or gamesolving in votato’s posts.

This is the summary.

votato says he is scumreading people but makes no attempt to engage with them directly to develop his reads, he even says he needs more content from copykat to develop a read but then doesn’t try to get more content. So he’s not even trying to develop his reads. I don’t think this requires a particularly high skill level to do. If he was scumreading me and fish, why didn’t he question us about things he found scummy? If he says he needs more content from copykat, why doesn’t he interact with that slot further to try to understand copykat’s perspective and develop a read there? These are all things that town!votato would be actively doing in order to develop his reads and progress through the game.

[lilith2013]

but i dont feel like anyone else is really hardpushing anywhere either

?? Within the last few pages alone, Tuxedo has been pushing freddie hard and osuka called freddie confscum

[lilith2013]

Which reminds me, @Osuka can you explain your read on freddie? All I can find in your ISO is that you called one of her posts bland? Also, are you scumreading formerfish?

[lilith2013]

wrong. those are things that motivated!votato would do regardless of alignment. as you say, theyre easy to do. easy to do as either alignment. the fact that im not doing them speaks to motivation, not to alignment. and lots of other people arent doing those things either. why only call me out lilith? and if this was a problem for a while, why only call me out after wave votes me?

I already called out ironcat for doing something similarly minded when he pushed me; and I would push anyone else I noticed doing it. I gave you a bit of a free pass due to my early townlean and I only noticed that you weren’t engaging with people when wave voted you because I went back into your ISO.

I don’t think it’s easy for scum to do what I’m talking about, in fact I think it’s a really big scumtell when someone doesn’t want to interact with people directly, especially people they said they’re scumreading. I don’t think engagement vs disengagement with the game particularly impacts what I’m looking for, either.

[lilith2013]

I find it so weird that people can't follow the very simple evolution of voting and questioning my top scum read. Then after getting answers voting my other scum read who still hasn't answered my questions.

What happened to your scumread on wave/brass slot?

[lilith2013]

Why Lilith? PoE?

Lilith and fish are scummy together

Why are they scummy together?

that was wayyyy too long ago for that question to be super relevant. but it was their interactions. I didnt buy their fight as TvT. They seemed to be agreeing about a lot of reads, and I didn't particularly like their reads. that suggests orchestration. Fish has since said that his posts were somewhat intentionally scummy as a gambit. If anything that makes lilith even more scummy since her posts agreed with someone who was being scummy on purpose.

Where did fish and I have similar reads?
If you had all of these thoughts, why not say them in your original post?
Then there is 0 follow up on either my or fish’s slot in terms of pushing a scumread, building a wagon, or engaging to develop the read further. You haven’t even voted either me or fish.

[lilith2013]

Standing to the side of an argument and announcing scumreads on players without directly engaging with them is exactly the scumtell I’m looking for

[lilith2013]

I also found an Osuka scum game to later case while browsing through Brass's games

here is another one if youre interested

here is another one of osuka's scum games.

Since when have you been scumreading osuka?

[lilith2013]

@Lilith where you at? You said Votato hasn't been seriously pushing, but I'm not seeing a major push on him from Wave or you, and you guys have a lot more work cut out for you on that slot.

What I’ve been doing doesn’t count as a hard push...? Anyway I agree, votato wagon is not gaining any traction. I need to reread the thread tonight and I’ll figure out who out of the viable wagons I would be okay with lynching. I haven’t formed a really strong read on either freddie or waves, so I’ll ISO them and see how I feel

[lilith2013]

Okay I'm mostly read up.

By play alone I think freddie and brassherald/waves were equally scummy. But considering the timing of the two wagons, I think the freddie wagon may be a counterwagon to the wavesarc wagon, which makes me think wavesarc is scum and either tuxedo or osuka is the partner pushing the counterwagon, and possibly also that wavesarc himself was trying to gain traction on a votato wagon so as not to be on the freddie wagon with his scumpartner.. I also have a guess as to who waves' scumpartner would be based on the two slots' reads on each other being a bit cagey, but preflip associatives are bad so I will save them for after the flip.

wavesarc, can you claim please?

[lilith2013]

If Wave flips scum, Freddie is his partner.

I don't think freddie is waves' partner, I'd assume that they would be double bussing if they knew they were the two biggest wagons and that one of them would be lynched.

[lilith2013]

Regardless, this is intent to hammer waves, pending claim.

[lilith2013]

And i know that Freddie just voted Wave, but thats a bus vote if ive ever seen one. Its clear that its coming down to Freddie or Wave, and one of them is the scum PR (if they have one) which means even scum wants to keep someone alive on their team over the other.

Scum PR Freddie is bussing his goon partner in Wave.

Okay that's fair, I didn't consider that the scum PR could affect bussing decisions

I think the freddie wagon may be a counterwagon to the wavesarc wagon

Can you show how you came to this conclusion?

let me go find the votes again

[lilith2013]

Okay so here's the main posts I was looking at for timing of the wagons:

Fish votes brass.

VOTE: Brass

Let's dance.

osuka votes freddie shortly after.

Hola, also had some mafia history in other places. Have never played a mafia game which lasted this long tho. I don't get the vote for Votato so VOTE:

gibus

this is known as the RVS, or Random Vote Stage, where people vote for silly reasons to get the game started, and then we gradually progress to more serious posting as we get a few bandwagons going.

Fine, VOTE: votato

you shouldn't flipflop like that makes you look flaky

VOTE: imironcat

that's very scummy
VOTE: freddiethelady

gibus votes brass and nauci says she is scumleaning brass.

Do not scumread me for this please, but I'm going to sheep Fish and Nauci and change my vote in 3 posts.
VOTE: brassherald (wavesarc)

Tuxedo Mask makes a big case on freddie shortly after.

Spoiler: Freddie ISO

Gibus seems too sloppy to be suspicious but it could be an act.

I’m suspicious that Lilith is a little more experienced then she’s letting on. I’m not sure why she jumped on the gibus wagon either. I’d love to hear an explanation since it could be AI.

I still don't think this has been answered. It seems like the start of Freddie's Lilith read, which is pretty rocky ground.

I’m trying to learn the distinction also. its like throwing darts at a wall. I think the simple answer is that scum will try to be as inconspicuous as possible. Paying close attention to what a person says and how they say can Give you subtle hints. I’m not good at this yet but a healthy dose of skepticism will help you start to weed out leading clues vs gibberish. It’s not rocket surgery but it does take some practice.

Applying your thought process here, have you uncovered subtle hints in what people are saying? And would agree that applying this logic to your own posts would read them as scummy?

Gibus you’re like a ping pong ball with your votes. It’s looking sloppy and thoughtless. At some point I’m going to ask you to justify that. Are you prepared to do that?

This is a weird question. Why not ask him to justify them now? This feels like you have clocked an easy push and are just holding back for an opportune moment.

Lilith hasn’t posted much lately, has she? I wonder why. Ive been suspicious of her without being able to collect my thoughts or any evidence (if in fact there is any) against her yet.

This happened 7 irl days ago, and over HALF the game ago. Yet they have still done nothing with this. Where is the evidence Freddie? Where are the reads?

So reading Freddie I don't find scum hunting, it is mostly excuses and questions about site stuff. There is very little pushes or curiosity. I also read through their ISO of Newbie 1997 and they feel very different there. For one, they replaced into that game and have nearly as many posts there as they do here. And in that game, they don't seem nearly as lost and unsure, constantly pursuing things and asking questions. This really feels like scum that doesn't know what to say.

VOTE: Freddiethelady

waves then tries to start a votato wagon almost immediately after Tuxedo's freddie case

@everyone that is townreading votato: why?

VOTE: votato btw

also osuka starts hard-pushing freddie shortly after that

freddie is confscum by the way

[lilith2013]

Okay so here's the main posts I was looking at for timing of the wagons:

Fish votes brass.

VOTE: Brass

Let's dance.

osuka votes freddie shortly after.

Hola, also had some mafia history in other places. Have never played a mafia game which lasted this long tho. I don't get the vote for Votato so VOTE:

gibus

this is known as the RVS, or Random Vote Stage, where people vote for silly reasons to get the game started, and then we gradually progress to more serious posting as we get a few bandwagons going.

Fine, VOTE: votato

you shouldn't flipflop like that makes you look flaky

VOTE: imironcat

that's very scummy
VOTE: freddiethelady

gibus votes brass and nauci says she is scumleaning brass.

Do not scumread me for this please, but I'm going to sheep Fish and Nauci and change my vote in 3 posts.
VOTE: brassherald (wavesarc)

Tuxedo Mask makes a big case on freddie shortly after.

Spoiler: Freddie ISO

Gibus seems too sloppy to be suspicious but it could be an act.

I’m suspicious that Lilith is a little more experienced then she’s letting on. I’m not sure why she jumped on the gibus wagon either. I’d love to hear an explanation since it could be AI.

I still don't think this has been answered. It seems like the start of Freddie's Lilith read, which is pretty rocky ground.

I’m trying to learn the distinction also. its like throwing darts at a wall. I think the simple answer is that scum will try to be as inconspicuous as possible. Paying close attention to what a person says and how they say can Give you subtle hints. I’m not good at this yet but a healthy dose of skepticism will help you start to weed out leading clues vs gibberish. It’s not rocket surgery but it does take some practice.

Applying your thought process here, have you uncovered subtle hints in what people are saying? And would agree that applying this logic to your own posts would read them as scummy?

Gibus you’re like a ping pong ball with your votes. It’s looking sloppy and thoughtless. At some point I’m going to ask you to justify that. Are you prepared to do that?

This is a weird question. Why not ask him to justify them now? This feels like you have clocked an easy push and are just holding back for an opportune moment.

Lilith hasn’t posted much lately, has she? I wonder why. Ive been suspicious of her without being able to collect my thoughts or any evidence (if in fact there is any) against her yet.

This happened 7 irl days ago, and over HALF the game ago. Yet they have still done nothing with this. Where is the evidence Freddie? Where are the reads?

So reading Freddie I don't find scum hunting, it is mostly excuses and questions about site stuff. There is very little pushes or curiosity. I also read through their ISO of Newbie 1997 and they feel very different there. For one, they replaced into that game and have nearly as many posts there as they do here. And in that game, they don't seem nearly as lost and unsure, constantly pursuing things and asking questions. This really feels like scum that doesn't know what to say.

VOTE: Freddiethelady

waves then tries to start a votato wagon almost immediately after Tuxedo's freddie case

@everyone that is townreading votato: why?

VOTE: votato btw

also osuka starts hard-pushing freddie shortly after that

freddie is confscum by the way

What do you make of this? I appreciate the consolidation of the points but what motivated you to make that? What was your point?

fish asked me to provide evidence of how I came to the conclusion that you were a counterwagon to waves... did you read my previous posts?

[lilith2013]

@Freddie why aren't you voting FF? And what about FF do you find scummy?
Do you scum read Copycat/Me? But I'm most interested in your read of Copycat's posts. And do you scum read Osuka/Ironcat? I'm more interested in your thoughts on Osuka's posts though.

Freddie, can you answer this?

Ironcat was unvoted by me. We established that, I could have been wrong but it seemed reasonable to me so I acted on it. Osuka has been just shitting on everyone’s posts and being loud. The loudness may be an attempted substance but I can’t read it yet.

Fish, what’s a vanity vote?

I’m not voting fish atm because I think he’s scummy but it might be deliberate. It reminds me of the quote “I think a servant of the enemy would look fairer and feel fouler”. I’m still not sure enough to vote him, which is why I never voted him.

How do I officially claim my role? Do I send a screen shot of my message from Elmo? I’m not scum.

Vanity vote is a vote on a wagon that has no legs, you vote there because youre vain and think you know better.

You claim by saying what you are, if youre a town pr I would just say PR for right now, so we dont clue scum in anymore than needed.

Uh... I think it's worse to claim PR because scum would still kill townPR!freddie but no one would be able to counterclaim scum!freddie, whereas if you claim the name then there's an opportunity for counterclaim by town PR. town!freddie gets killed either way.

[lilith2013]

oh my lord

[lilith2013]

I’m still scumreading votato

his insistence on town!freddie and also sudden scumreads on fish and osuka, the two people most vocally calling for freddie’s lynch today, makes me think he is trying to chainsaw defend the freddie slot or possibly WK freddie if freddie is town.

Fish is my strongest townread, I really don’t think scum!fish lolhammers town!wave like that.

[lilith2013]

I’m planning to do a reread of D1 and hopefully come up with some more solid reads

[lilith2013]

Pinky swear I am getting to this game today.

[lilith2013]

@votato so you believe that ironcat/osuka and formerfish pushing each other for a large part of D1 was scum theater?

[lilith2013]

I'm still in the process of rereading, it's going very slowly as I am taking copious notes and making a chart and stuff. Will be posting in sections as I go.

[lilith2013]

I am currently past page 8.

Spoiler: wall of notes

- 53: Freddie votes ironcat/osuka with what looks to be a “serious” reason, but the reason itself is not valid. Says ironcat/osuka is flipflopping but the two quotes she posted are from the first and then second game roll, so not a valid serious reason. It feels like she was trying to fit in with RVS but tried too hard to come up with a real reason for voting ironcat/osuka. Was this an actually serious vote? ( =/+ Freddie depending on answer)
- 81 to 84: Gibus asks feathers/nausi if they are scum. Feathers/nausi claims VT and then gibus “claims” VT and votes feathers/nausi in the same post. Gibus’ vote seems like simultaneously “noobtownslipping” but voting feathers/nausi for doing the same thing. ( + gibus; - gibus & feathers/nausi team)
- 93 to 95: Gibus votes Freddie, says he’s trying to get us out of RVS, then votes brass/wavesarc. The reasoning behind switching the votes around isn’t really valid but I don’t think it’s AI.
- 110: Votato asks me why I voted gibus, but doesn’t explain why he voted gibus. Could be trying to soft defend a scumbuddy here ( + votato; possibly + votato & gibus team)
- 111: Feathers/nausi is townreading votato and maybe Freddie (but doesn’t give reasons for townreading Freddie); scumreading gibus but doesn’t vote gibus; and scumreading people who are “lurking” but actually weren’t lurking, including me, who he is voting. Reads on Freddie and gibus are probably the weirdest here. ( + feathers; + feathers/nausi & Freddie team; + feathers/nausi & gibus team; - feathers/nausi & votato team)
- 115: votato seems to be either strongly townreading feathers or TMIing (“since you’re town” seems like votato knows feathers is town here when town!votato wouldn’t know feathers’ alignment for sure). Will need to watch out for future posts implying one or the other. Also some soft defense of me. ( + votato)
- 116: Freddie is fencesitting on gibus (“Gibus seems too sloppy to be suspicious but it could be an act”) then questions why I voted gibus right after votato asks the same question, even though I just explained it. Further shades me for “being more experienced than I’m letting on” even though that like… isn’t possible, since I’m not trying to hide experience.. Could be noobscum following in scumpartner votato’s footsteps in questioning me and defending gibus, resulting in trying to shade my slot without actually hard pushing; or possibly scum!freddie getting overly concerned with my vote on scumpartner gibus ( + Freddie; + Freddie & votato team; + Freddie & gibus team)
- 119: Freddie calls me out for defending ironcat/osuka when all I said was that he wasn’t lurking, but also says it might not be AI but is “interesting.” More fencesitting. Probably wouldn’t call someone out who was siding with their scumpartner, so less likely to be scum with ironcat/osuka slot. ( + Freddie; - Freddie & ironcat/osuka team)
- 120: a bit more soft defense of my slot from votato.
- 122: feathers/nausi says vote is on gibus because switching votes a lot and wanting RVS to end are scum indicative, which is actually wrong. Ironcat/osuka later uses this reasoning to scumread me. Not sure if this is AI in either case, as the logic is just bad but not necessarily scummy.
- 124: Freddie shades me for “not posting much, casting votes and defending someone. Not trying to sort out the rules, clarify things or understand people better” being suspicious. Immediately backs off after my response. Could go either way on this one.
- 129: more soft defense of my slot from votato. I think could be trying to buddy me. ( + votato)
- 137 and 140: Ironcat/osuka votes Freddie for questioning gibus’ ping ponging votes, and says Freddie is trying to “buddy him with Lilith.” What does this even mean? Also Freddie isn’t the one who called ironcat/osuka out for lurking, it was gibus; and Freddie didn’t push ironcat/osuka at all. This seems like an overly focused post to Freddie when Freddie isn’t even scumreading or pushing ironcat/osuka. Likely not SvS. ( + ironcat/osuka; - ironcat/osuka & Freddie team)
- 144: gibus says at least one of me/Freddie is town. Votato immediately pops into thread to ask why. Gibus responds that freddie’s and my argument about whether I was defending ironcat looks like “something we would have gone through in a PT if they both were scum.” Then says “little chance for [distancing] since Lilith planned on leaving RVS by voting for me, and shifting the spotlight to both of them would look bad as scum.” This looks like town reasoning, although I disagree that this kind of disagreement couldn’t be manufactured by scumpartners. ( - gibus)
- 148: Ironcat/osuka says “it’s funny how Freddie is saying that flipping is a mafia move,” again incorrectly ascribing someone else’s post (feathers) to Freddie in order to build a read on them. Then ironcat/osuka FOSes me for reasons unclear, says I would “put the blame on Freddie.” Suddenly switches to townread on Freddie and scumread on me with no explanation and no additional posts from either Freddie or myself to inform that change in read. A weird interaction, I think it’s more likely to be scum flipping read on town than two scumpartners. ( + ironcat/osuka; - ironcat/osuka & Freddie team)
- 151: Feathers/nausi questions ironcat/osuka – why is ironcat/osuka voting Freddie but also worried Freddie would be blamed for a kill?
- 155 to 159: Ironcat/osuka responds with “don’t worry, I’m suspicious of you as well. Who said that Freddie would be blamed?” when…. that’s exactly what he said about Freddie. In 157, he’s still supposedly scumreading Freddie though, and in 159 says that if I’m scum, that I could kill people who suspect me and blame Freddie since ironcat/osuka suspected Freddie too. Once again, this implies townreading Freddie even though reads list says Freddie is a scumread. Could be inadvertent TMI (knows Freddie is town). Also I’m the highest scumread even though ironcat/osuka only suspects me by association with Freddie.. This is a cagey way to start scumreading me and pushing original Freddie read to the side. ( + ironcat/osuka; + ironcat/osuka & Freddie team)
- 160 and 161: votato votes ironcat/osuka for misunderstanding ironcat/osuka’s list as being “all the scumreads” rather than “list of scummiest to towniest.” Not sure if AI, but could be trying to soft defend me or Freddie here since those are ironcat/osuka’s two top scumreads. ( + votato & Freddie team)
- In 153, gibus says “quicksolve: brass, Lilith, formerfish” but doesn’t vote brass until several hours later in 166, as if he forgot that he should be voting who he scumreads most and had to be reminded. ( + gibus)
- 189: ironcat/osuka and votato misunderstanding over the “suspicion list” doesn’t seem like SvS. Ironcat/osuka’s explanation for why he is scumreading Freddie doesn’t actually mention Freddie at all. ( + ironcat/osuka; - ironcat/osuka & votato team)
- 190 and 192: Ironcat/osuka suddenly votes me based on associatives, horrible reason to vote. He hasn’t found anything that I’ve actually done up to this point that is scummy, but is voting me based on association with Freddie. Freddie suddenly becomes his strongest townread, so they could be scumpartners intending to both end up pushing me all along. ( + ironcat/osuka; + ironcat/osuka & Freddie team)

Spoiler: conclusions thus far

scumpool of {freddie, ironcat/osuka, votato}
- votato seemed to be soft defending me from freddie as well as soft defending me & freddie from ironcat/osuka, which comes across as WKing or chainsaw if freddie is also scum; also has a very strong townread on feathers/nausi which could be TMIing on that slot.
- freddie was fencesitting on gibus yet in the same post soft defending him; and was fencesitty on me when I said ironcat wasn't lurking. Also shaded me/others for things that weren't AI (including the "lurking", "being more experienced than I'm letting on" and not being friendly/helpful enough).
- ironcat seems to focus overly much on pushing freddie slot and calling them scum. He called me scum by association with Freddie, then after being questioned, suddenly flipped his read on Freddie without flipping the read on me that was formed by association with a scum!Freddie. He didn't provide any other reason for scumreading me.

Questions up to this point:

@Freddie, was 53 actually a serious vote?
@votato, why did you vote gibus in 78?

[lilith2013]

This is going really slowly and tbh might just not finish my reread of D1 before the deadline lynch happened and focus on the end of D1 and what's happened so far in D2. I want to point out this post by formerfish though:

Hey Freddie, Vota seems convinced you are town, does the feeling flow both ways, or is this a one way street type of thing between you two?

@Freddie you never responded to this. You basically haven't said anything about your read on votato all game, and the last time you even mention attempting to read him is 345, basically saying that you didn't have a read. Can you explain why you haven't voiced a read on votato yet, and what your read on him is now?

[lilith2013]

For freddie to be town here, there are so many exact pieces that have to not line up in her thought process for her to claim after a hammer on someone else.

Here's the sequence of events:
1) she put wave to L-1 and knew to announce it
2) I declared intent to hammer and asked wave to claim
3) wave claimed
4) wave voted freddie to L-1
5) fish fakehammered
6) votato said in 1088 that wasn't a hammer, he was already on the wagon
7) literally no one has asked freddie to claim thus far. votato even says no need to claim since no one has declared intent to hammer.
8) fish hammers wave and it's clear they are discussing wave having already been lynched.
9) freddie claims VT.

so freddie claimed:
- after freddie herself was the one who declared waves at L-1
- after she sees someone hammering waves
- after no one told her to claim or declared intent to hammer her
- after votato specifically said not to claim
- after multiple people are clearly discussing waves already being dead

She has to have not seen

all of these things

in order for town!freddie to think she needs to claim, which makes literally no sense because she was the one who put waves at L-1 in the first place. If she was confused about the gamestate, she could have even asked, "am I supposed to claim?" to make sure. There's literally no need for her to claim. at all.

so why claim then?

for towncred. like, look at me being so noobtown that I claim even when I'm not the lynch. I can't even tell when someone else's wagon was hammered! That can't be real.

[lilith2013]

@lilith I never claimed.

That's why I put the word "claimed" in quotes.

Aren't we all vanilla townies.. VOTE: feathers

What exactly were you trying to say here then? Why did you vote feathers?

[lilith2013]

well fish you did go fishing for claims pretty hard

this is literally not true, he didn't ask anyone to claim. I was the one who asked waves to claim, and no one asked freddie to claim.

[lilith2013]

I just don't know how to believe the idea that Freddie successfully read that the fakehammer was fake but then failed to pick up on 2 pages of discussion that they should NOT claim immediately after

^ this

I thought you meant that the group that’s on my wagon would know to kill me or not...I didn’t want to die so I thought, claim your role. I cracked. I don’t know what to say.

Yeah, but you cracked in such a way at a specific time where you are making an attempt to explain why you werent killed tonight.

Follow me here.

If we just lynched Waves after your whole "how do I claim" stuff then scum could look at you and think to themselves that he was ready to claim, so therefore maybe he had something to claim other than a vt, so we should still kill him tonight in case he is a PR and we get lucky.

By claiming after the lynch went through all you are doing is taking your name out of the hat because now scum knows youre a vt and wouldn't target you for the nk because they would be PR hunting among the unclaimed people.

You just explained why you are alive tomorrow even though you really shouldnt be. Scum should have killed you tonight so that they could throw shade over all the people who were pushing you since they would have been pushing a townie right?

But you arent town, so your team mate told you to claim vt so you wouldnt die tonight and have a reason to point to when youre still alive.

Scum caught, i rest my case.

What will happen to this theory when I flip town?

freddie was still talking as if a wave lynch hadn't occurred literally in front of her eyes and multiple people hadn't straight up told her that it happened.

Like I just seriously can't believe that this cluelessness isn't manufactured.

[lilith2013]

And I'm not even sure how you consider yourself to be pocketed. You keep shading me while agreeing with everything I say, are you trying to gaslight me?

@votato: This doesn't seem like SvS to me, I don't think scum!fish would call out scum!osuka for inconsistency in his read on fish. Like there's no reason for him to call attention to his scumpartner like that.

[lilith2013]

Yup, you’re right. I’ll do better next time! Good luck everyone!

How is pressure voting sus? We need content from everyone before we lynch.

I'm curious about her thoughts on Fred after he claimed, people other than votato and FF, wave's flip, no NK.
I don't like #1308 because it looks like confbias at that point (he was scumreading FF & osuka for a while).

No, votato wasn't scumreading fish before the whole D1 lynch fiasco. Fish wasn't in his lynchpool for D1 at all. Votato only started putting fish into his scumpile after fish called freddie scum.

[lilith2013]

Yup, you’re right. I’ll do better next time! Good luck everyone!

I forgot to talk about this one, just more "cluelessness" from freddie that I don't buy. Once again, multiple people straight up told her that waves was dead, they told her why it was bad to claim after the lynch happened, and then she keeps acting like she will be lynched.

[lilith2013]

"claiming VT" is an unnecessary move as scum

sure, it's unnecessary, that doesn't mean it's not a scum move or that it's not scum-motivated.

To me it felt like scum!freddie felt caught, like she would automatically be lynched for her behavior. when she said "good luck everyone" that implied she expected to be lynched next.

[lilith2013]

@gibus, what was your aim in voting me? You have not questioned me about anything, you just parked your vote and it feels like a really lazy way to not have to scumhunt today because you haven't asked anyone anything, or engaged with the other people in your scumpool. You even said I haven't done anything scummy. So what exactly are you voting me for?

You said "for pressure." Okay, nausi already pressure voted me. I posted only once in the thread after that, so it should be obvious the "pressure" wasn't going to achieve anything. Like my inactivity was clearly not the result of people not paying attention to me in this thread, so why did/do you think that paying attention to me would change my lack of activity after nausi's pressure vote was already shown to not have an effect?

[lilith2013]

I'm curious about her thoughts on Fred after he claimed, people other than votato and FF, wave's flip, no NK.

I think I covered #1. Still catching up fully so will get to #2.

#3 - wave's flip made me reevaluate my hesitation on a freddie wagon. I originally thought freddie was a counterwagon to scum!waves, which would imply town!freddie, but that wasn't the case since waves was town. I also have to reevaluate my reads on Tuxedo/osuka since I was basing those partly on association with counterwagoning freddie.

#4 - I'd prefer to not give scum all the cards. Several people have already speculated why there's no NK, I see no reason to keep speculating on it when it should be pretty obvious what no NK implies.

[lilith2013]

Literally speculation on no NK just helps scum. They already know what column of the grid we're in, so us giving them more info on what or who blocked them or what or who didn't block them only helps them narrow down what row we're in too. On the other hand, town has little to no info on where we are in the grid. Even a PR may not know what row we're in. They have no idea if there's another PR in the setup (excluding masons), and we also have no idea which column we're in because we don't know if there's a mafia PR.

[lilith2013]

@gibus Here's what I mean by "votato wasn't scumreading osuka & ff until they started pushing freddie," the osuka edition. I already mentioned the fish edition in 1422.

Here's votato's early game progression on ironcat/osuka slot.

so if everyone posted youd suspect everyone? i disagree. I dont have any very strong scum reads yet. I cant yet tell if ironcat is very noob or scummy. But i get noobtown vibes from feather, gibus, and freddie.

VOTE: copykat. i agree with brass. its mostly gut, but copykat seems pretty opportunistic hopping on the major wagon, putting it to L-1 without saying anything. I also see nothing in copykats case about scumslippng. Not a strong case against copykat, ill concede, but worth pressuring. I still dont like ironcat, but that might just be due to language barrier.

town: gibus, feathers, votato
likely town: brass, freddie, formerfish
null: lilith
possible scum: iamironcat
scum:copykat

its very unlikely that the felines are the scumpair and that i've solved this early, but as a dog person it would bring me great pleasure. i would totally buy brass distancing or bussing here.

@votato, can you explain why you think gibus is newbtown based on this other game? I read some of his posts there and he comes across as .... surprisingly un-newb there.

oh i missed this. im not sure if i can, since its ongoing. i agree that he comes off as newbie-er here, so could be playing it up to get brownie points.

i agree that ironcat is being really strange. but some of it is definitely due to language barrier. i also really dislike people who are so formally logical, so it could be a personal bias thing on my end.

^ Up until this point, ironcat has mainly been pushing me and fish. Votato's read on ironcat is "scummy but I think it might just be a playstyle thing," so not actually pushing ironcat, he admits it's not a strong scumread, etc.

The following posts occur after osuka enters and calls freddie scum.

hmm i havent gone back to re-read the ISO on gibus. but my memory doesnt ping me. If people are really serious about that wagon ill go reread, but I think its not an optimal lynch for today. If gibus is scum i fully anticipate being able to figure it out with a high degree of confidence well before lylo. i think my lynchpool atm is copykat/tuxedo or ironcat/osuka. I could maybe be persuaded about lilith (maybe), or formerfish (probably not today though).

osuka sinks further into the scumpile. calling people's posts shit is neither a way to win them over nor to prove a case. seems like some AtE bullshit, except it isnt remotely appealing. what are your thoughts on brass/wave here osuka?

Votato has changed his tone from "I don't know if ironcat is scummy, could just be noobtown" to having osuka in his preferred lynches as well as calling him scummy. The tone of his read on this slot has changed significantly, from a kind of detached "eh could just be noobtown," casual stance, to "osuka is in my lynchpool," "osuka sinks further into the scumpile," "AtE bullshit," all much more aggressive language than before. So there's a difference in the way that votato is acting in regard to his scumread on this slot, from before vs after osuka starts hard pushing freddie. I think what I'm trying to say here is that the scumread suddenly appears to be a

serious

scumread after osuka starts pushing freddie.

pedit: You had fish as likely town in the reads post I quoted above. He's not in your preferred lynchpools in your lynchpools post 876 either. The same applies here, where you didn't start having a

serious

scumread where you engaged with/pushed that slot until after fish started pushing freddie.

[lilith2013]

Yup, you’re right. I’ll do better next time! Good luck everyone!

I forgot to talk about this one, just more "cluelessness" from freddie that I don't buy. Once again, multiple people straight up told her that waves was dead, they told her why it was bad to claim after the lynch happened, and then she keeps acting like she will be lynched.

Theres no scum motivation either. It's a fuck up. I don't see why it's ai. I'm pretty sure she thought she'd be night killed for claiming town, because she figured everyone believed her, and now her secret was out.

Um... what?

Why would town!freddie be NKed for claiming town in a way that most people in the thread thought was scummy?
Further, why would she be NKed for claiming VT when scum are going to be PR-hunting?
What incentive would scum have at all to kill town!freddie rather than try to keep her alive until LYLO so they can autowin by mislynching her?

[lilith2013]

Why are you speaking for Freddie?

Also this

[lilith2013]

You said "for pressure." Okay, nausi already pressure voted me. I posted only once in the thread after that, so it should be obvious the "pressure" wasn't going to achieve anything. Like my inactivity was clearly not the result of people not paying attention to me in this thread, so why did/do you think that paying attention to me would change my lack of activity after nausi's pressure vote was already shown to not have an effect?

UNVOTE: lilith2k13
Your response to Nauci's pressure vote looked unsatisfactory, and I confused your inactivity with lurking as scum. I agree, my vote was hasty.

Why are you scumreading Tuxedo and formerfish?

[lilith2013]

You had fish as likely town in the reads post I quoted above. He's not in your preferred lynchpools in your lynchpools post 876 either. The same applies here, where you didn't start having a serious scumread where you engaged with/pushed that slot until after fish started pushing freddie.

This was @votato if it wasn't clear. Votato's reads post where fish is in his townleans is 316; 876 is where votato vocalizes preferred lynches.

[lilith2013]

And I'm not even sure how you consider yourself to be pocketed. You keep shading me while agreeing with everything I say, are you trying to gaslight me?

@votato: This doesn't seem like SvS to me, I don't think scum!fish would call out scum!osuka for inconsistency in his read on fish. Like there's no reason for him to call attention to his scumpartner like that.

Also @votato I'm trying to engage with you on your fish/osuka case, I'm interested in hearing your response to this.

[lilith2013]

And I'm not even sure how you consider yourself to be pocketed. You keep shading me while agreeing with everything I say, are you trying to gaslight me?

@votato: This doesn't seem like SvS to me, I don't think scum!fish would call out scum!osuka for inconsistency in his read on fish. Like there's no reason for him to call attention to his scumpartner like that.

Also @votato I'm trying to engage with you on your fish/osuka case, I'm interested in hearing your response to this.

except notice that no pressure was actually applied. Where were the votes?

I'm not saying that pressure was applied, I'm saying why would fish bring anyone's attention to osuka's inconsistent read on him if he didn't have to?

[lilith2013]

ff the chain of events is accurate. But there's a really simple explanation for why Freddie claimed. She fucked up. As scum there's no reason for her to claim there. It's a bad play and has no upside regardless of alignment. Occams razor

Just replace the word "scum" with "town", and get "As town there's no reason for her to claim there."

[lilith2013]

And I'm not even sure how you consider yourself to be pocketed. You keep shading me while agreeing with everything I say, are you trying to gaslight me?

@votato: This doesn't seem like SvS to me, I don't think scum!fish would call out scum!osuka for inconsistency in his read on fish. Like there's no reason for him to call attention to his scumpartner like that.

Also @votato I'm trying to engage with you on your fish/osuka case, I'm interested in hearing your response to this.

except notice that no pressure was actually applied. Where were the votes?

I'm not saying that pressure was applied, I'm saying why would fish bring anyone's attention to osuka's inconsistent read on him if he didn't have to?

distancing? There was little risk involved given the focus was elsewhere. Why did you fight Maria in gnr?

They were arguing back and forth at a time when, if they were scum, they would have already successfully achieved a mislynch on waves and lined up another mislynch on freddie. In what world do they continue arguing in the thread for pages after the hammer when they can just not do that and it still wouldn't be suspicious? "Occams razor."

She picked a fight with me first, that wasn't planned. I always argue when someone picks a fight with me, so that's what I did in response. You'd have to ask her "why" she picked a fight with me.

[lilith2013]

ff the chain of events is accurate. But there's a really simple explanation for why Freddie claimed. She fucked up. As scum there's no reason for her to claim there. It's a bad play and has no upside regardless of alignment. Occams razor

Just replace the word "scum" with "town", and get "As town there's no reason for her to claim there."

Exactly. Nai

Yeah that's really not what I'm saying at all.

Scum!freddie claiming VT gets the benefit of people calling her noobtown and hard defending her for it; she gets the benefit of not having to explain why she wasn't the NK in this game ever; she gets the benefit of being able to tie messy associatives to the people who are defending her so even after she gets lynched, PoEs are fucked up by that claim.

At any time during that entire chain of events, freddie could have asked for clarification about what was happening if she was so clueless, like you say she is. She could have asked whether waves had really been lynched. She could have confirmed whether she needed to claim. Since you two know each other so well, she could have asked you directly to explain what was happening if she felt intimidated by others in the thread. She didn't do any of those things.

[lilith2013]

ff the chain of events is accurate. But there's a really simple explanation for why Freddie claimed. She fucked up. As scum there's no reason for her to claim there. It's a bad play and has no upside regardless of alignment. Occams razor

Multiple people have pointed out the potential LAMIST mentality behind that.

Like, i am so close to asking a question, but once I do that box cant be closed, but if the answer is yes then i get the relationship you guys have and im not going to question things any more, but if the answer is no then you are being severely anti-town with your play here and are being more of a distraction than anything.

I assume you disagree that before Freddie claimed that they were a likely target for the nk, therefore claiming vt as scum allowed her an out when the day started and she was still alive, "Oh, well they didnt kill me because they knew i was a vt because they know im town and must have went pr hunting."

You cant say that there is no reason for scum to claim there, you can only disagree that thats what happened.

all of this

[lilith2013]

i mostly started suspecting ff later. The gambit reeked to me

Fish announced that he was ending the gambit in 473 by virtue of having posted about it. There wasn't going to

be

a "D2 solve" because as he said, he didn't have anyone to back him up. You still didn't have him in your lynchpool in 876. So where exactly did you start suspecting fish due to his gambit?

[lilith2013]

Because im not saying that Copy slot is 100% town and fighting anyone who says otherwise. I remember liking Copys posts (and i think he was fighting with Vota wasnt he?) and then when the slot was replaced there were shenanigans where Tux was pushed close to a lynch right after replacing in and mentioning that they werent caught up, so that gave them town points in my eyes since it seemed like a scum push to get a quick lynch before the player could catch up and start defending the slot against the bullshit being flung against them.

Meh I kind of disagree with all of these reasons to townread Copykat slot

[lilith2013]

i mostly started suspecting ff later. The gambit reeked to me

Fish announced that he was ending the gambit in 473 by virtue of having posted about it. There wasn't going to

be

a "D2 solve" because as he said, he didn't have anyone to back him up. You still didn't have him in your lynchpool in 876. So where exactly did you start suspecting fish due to his gambit?

@votato

[lilith2013]

How is pressure voting sus? We need content from everyone before we lynch.

I'm curious about her thoughts on Fred after he claimed, people other than votato and FF, wave's flip, no NK.
I don't like #1308 because it looks like confbias at that point (he was scumreading FF & osuka for a while).

@gibus I think I explained pretty thoroughly my point about how votato’s reads on fish and osuka changed when they started pushing freddie. I’d like you to respond to that because you claimed I said that out of confbias and that my timeline of events wasn’t accurate.

[lilith2013]

Still in the middle of doing thorough reread of D1 end/D2 start

[lilith2013]

well fish you did go fishing for claims pretty hard

this is literally not true, he didn't ask anyone to claim. I was the one who asked waves to claim, and no one asked freddie to claim.

[lilith2013]

i want to lynch osuka. There is only one thing that would make me change my mind

i hope you're not softing that you want me to claim

@votato in case it wasnt clear enough, please stop ignoring this post

I'm interested in this as well, since Vota has been accusing me of role fishing Freddie when i fake hammered and then explained claiming.

Haven't the two of you made that same statement multiple times about Freedie and Votato? Saying "there's one thing that would convince me you're town, and you haven't said it yet."

Are you role fishing there? If not, how is Votato role fishing when they do it?

I don’t think that’s what they said? Iirc it was “without a good reason, we should lynch them.” The reason could be a towncase or a better scumcase on someone else.

[lilith2013]

Without a good reason to not lynch them, we should lynch them*

[lilith2013]

Freddie can be town here being propped up by Scum!Vota who is white knighting the shit out of Freddie. Freddie hasnt done anything that is going to shed light on Votas alignment.

I don't think this is true. I don't think scum Votato would double down so hard on Town!Freddie. I think this behavior would make more sense if they were scum together. But I don't think he would actively tarnish a fairly good standing in the eyes of most players to stop a mislynch.

You think it makes more sense for scumvota to double down on defending scumfreddie, while scumvota wouldnt defend townfreddie as much?

I understand that if they're both scum Votato has kind of thrown the game by being so dedicated. But I can also see the progression making more sense if they are scum then if Freddie was town.

Why would scum white knight? To win an ally and/or to look good when that person flips town. No offense but Freddie doesn't seem to be that helpful of an ally, and multiple players are calling for Votato's head now even BEFORE Freddie flips. So either way it seems like it would be much easier and better for Scum!Votato to let the mislynch happen rather than stick his neck out in the first place. To me Votato starting down this road and finding it difficult to give up is if they're scum together.

imo it’s actually the other way around. If scum sees their partner about to be lynched, they probably wouldn’t risk hard defending someone because they would automatically be associated with their partner once their partner flips. Scum would be more likely to see where the general zeitgeist is headed and try to blend in by also turning on their partner.

[lilith2013]

I guess it could go either way, just depends on how the scum strategized

[lilith2013]

@mod, shouldn’t freddie have been prodded by now? It’s been 2 days and 9.5 hours since she last posted

[lilith2013]

Right, but he's been refused that town cred for the majority of the time he's been Freddie. Like it has gotten to the point you want Votato dead BEFORE Freddie. To me this desperation makes more sense in BOTH being scum because he knows that if either of them flips at this point its game over. While I think a white-knighting Vota would have an easier time (and has been given multiple opportunities) walking away.

Okay that makes sense, I agree in this case

[lilith2013]

if freddie flips town, however remote that possibility, votato should be powerlynched the following day

Is there a typo in this or are you saying that only scum Vota would be able to have that sure of a read on town Freddie?

Ohhhhh

I guess that makes some sense but I'm not sure why scumtato would want to stick his neck that far out even if this was the case?

Does this mean you think votato is town?

[lilith2013]

Whoa whoa tux, hold on there, werent you reading Vota's posts? Lil is on his side, you should be asking her who she wants to lynch between osuka and I.

lmaoooooo

@Lilith between Freddie and Votato who would you want flipped first? And if one flipped town would you still want the other lynched?

Probably votato, since I’ve been scumreading him long before this whole freddie fiasco started, and he’s the one doing the defending. Freddie on the other hand hasn’t said anything about votato. So to some extent a votato flip will give us information on freddie, whereas a freddie flip doesn’t necessarily. Like if freddie flips town, votato could have been defending her regardless of whether he’s town or scum; while a townflip on votato would - well, not clear freddie, but it removes the doubt that people have on his motivations for defending her.

One flipping town doesn’t necessarily impact the independent parts of scumreads on the living player, just the association. That is, if votato flips town, that doesn’t erase scummy things that freddie did, or vice versa; the part that is invalidated with a townflip is where they were scummy because of their interactions with each other. I’d have to reevaluate my read at that point to remove the influence of any associations, and I assume by that point we’d have more information, so I couldn’t tell you for sure. Votato townflip -> town!freddie is probably more likely than freddie townflip -> town!votato though, based on what I said above.

[lilith2013]

To rephrase the last sentence in English, it’s more likely that freddie is town once we know votato is town than votato being town once we know that freddie is town.

[lilith2013]

I think you guys are trying to the same thing

[lilith2013]

I think you guys are trying to say the same thing

Ebwop

[lilith2013]

What the hell happened to this thread

[lilith2013]

this game has devolved into The Purge or something

[lilith2013]

VOTE: votato

[lilith2013]

pushing each other for a large part of D1

I'm sorry I'm going to need like a whole wall of quotes to even believe that they were ever pushing each other?

Gladly, give me a few minutes to go quote

feathers/nausi

why does everyone insist on spelling my username this way

Blame elmo, this is how your name is spelled in the VCs and that’s what I’ve been going by.. didn’t even realize that wasn’t your actual username

TMIing

1: I normally have no problem with wall posts but the formatting of those notes had me going cross eyed so I gave up and skipped to conclusions

2: what is TMIng

1) the notes are more for me than anything else, the conclusion section sums up the main points
2) TMIing = a read that doesn’t seem to be substantiated by play, so it seems like it comes from the person having “too much information” on a slot (and therefore being scum, because they know the other person’s alignment).

[lilith2013]

@Nau

c

i: here’s ironcat and fish pushing each other.

Spoiler: ironcat vs fish

Quicksolve: brass, lilith, formerfish

How many newbie games have you played? I suggest more.

If I'm right that lilith's mafia, they could nk me or the others who suspect them and put the blame on Freddie since I suspected them.

This makes an odd amount of sense, but the thought that you would die over 3 SEs is puzzling. Are you famous or something? I know I was in rehab for a month, but I doubt you blew up on this site that fast that I should know you, and if I dont know you dying tonight probably isnt in your cards.

Paranoia, poor logic, a scum list that's too long, no reasoning. You can scumread me for that if you want

I like you. You could still be scum and ill cry a single tear when you die, but i like you.

You should vote me for I am trash.

ftfy

If I'm right that lilith's mafia, they could nk me or the others who suspect them and put the blame on Freddie since I suspected them.

This makes an odd amount of sense, but the thought that you would die over 3 SEs is puzzling. Are you famous or something? I know I was in rehab for a month, but I doubt you blew up on this site that fast that I should know you, and if I dont know you dying tonight probably isnt in your cards.

I said "me or the others who suspect them" but you're changing it into a story about me being a celebrity here. Strange scum move.

It's funny how freddie is saying that filiiping is a mafia move - like that's the last thing they would do.
That being said,

if I get killed tonight

, investigate Lilith. I have a FOS on them.
It might be possible they would put the blame on Freddie.

Here you talk about yourself being killed tonight based off a random read from RVS within the first 10 pages.

Thats a lot of whatfuckingifs to check off to hit on the head. Hence why I mentioned that the idea that you would be the night kill as a puzzler.

Youre the person who thinks everyone is scum at first and we have to prove to you somehow that we arent, right?

Here you talk about yourself being killed tonight based off a random read from RVS within the first 10 pages.

Thats a lot of whatfuckingifs to check off to hit on the head. Hence why I mentioned that the idea that you would be the night kill as a puzzler.

Youre the person who thinks everyone is scum at first and we have to prove to you somehow that we arent, right?

Wasn't just talking about self but anyways.
It's easy to kill anyone who's town and I might be one of them. Mafia might either NK those who they might consider having a good lead or those who were accused by another town to set them up.
In this case, I used myself as an example for easy talking.

Not asking anyone to prove me personally that I'm not scum. Just talking about my process of elimination.

Also, you seem to be taking a lot of things personally - hence projecting them onto me.

Ironcat, please dont attempt to psychoanalyze me, my shrink does a fine job.

And the line about me being triggered, woo, thats a bit of gaslighting that i havent seen in awhile.

I suggest you ask around about me and see if anyone thinks that ive been triggered so far.

Not asking anyone to prove me personally that I'm not scum. Just talking about my process of elimination.

its so easy to use my words "process of elimination" against me. So I'll clarify in advance

Eliminating my suspicion. It's a form of deduction.

You seem worried, you worried?

VOTE: Ironcat

Just to clarify, thats a vote on you for being overly concerned with how you appear to people.

But i guess im just triggered and this is nothing but an omgus vote. I suppose we shall see what it will be, because after you flip there'll be no more of your lip.

I'll steal this page top and

challange Ironcat

to a duel. You can pick weaopons and we shall fight at noon on the 6th day of the first phase.

Do you accept, you must bold yes or no.

VOTE: Ironcat

Just to clarify, thats a vote on you for being overly concerned with how you appear to people.

You say that I have nothing else better to do in my life than to psychoanalyse you and according to you, the world revolves around me...
If you're not concerned about how you appear to others, you wouldn't need to feel that someone is psychoanalysis you.

I'm not sure what your problem is but it's quite clear you're taking this game too personally and projecting your true feelings onto others.

I'll steal this page top and

challange Ironcat

to a duel. You can pick weaopons and we shall fight at noon on the 6th day of the first phase.

Do you accept, you must bold yes or no.

I'm not interested in your self glorified victimisation.

VOTE: Formerfish

Possible scum buddies:

fish and lilith

See how fish projects a lot of insecurities onto me after my vote for Lilith? I'd be proud to be your scum buddy. Too bad I'm not.

I think that's just they're schtick. I doubt they're taking it personal at all.

Ironcat, please dont attempt to psychoanalyze me, my shrink does a fine job.

And the line about me being triggered, woo, thats a bit of gaslighting that i havent seen in awhile.

I suggest you ask around about me and see if anyone thinks that ive been triggered so far.

But i guess im just triggered and this is nothing but an omgus vote. I suppose we shall see what it will be, because after you flip there'll be no more of your lip.

Sounds like they were offended with the usage of the word "triggered" such that it was mentioned twice

edit:

You say that I have nothing else better to do in my life than to psychoanalyse you and according to you, the world revolves around me...
If you're not concerned about how you appear to others, you wouldn't need to feel that someone is psychoanalysing* you.

People were on to gibus then copykat.. interesting
It would be strange that copykat is scum just because they were replaced early. There's def a scum feel about kat but i don't heavily suspect them despite the reasons given.
Saying this will DEFINITELY make us look like buddies since votatoe is saying that I'm distancing myself from them.

It seems like votato and brass are taking the lead of how the votes go. They seem to trust each other so I'd keep my eye on them.
Also votatayto, I appear as a cat but I'm actually 1's and 0's, so you don't have to consider me a feline.

I did a noob move by finding power town players such as masons in a noob scum game and got killed by an SK. I don't understand why people let gibus off the hook so early. I wouldn't

I think I'll trust Brass and votato on this and also UNVOTE: Gibus.

That's the very thing you've pointed bass out for doing.

That being said, I'll stand by my vote and not join any current wagons. Fishy had been projecting a great deal of their insecurity on me.
Saying that I give a shit about what people think about me or that I behave like a celebrity yet behaves in that exact way by telling me to ask people about him as if i give a shit about him and this

You say that I have nothing else better to do in my life than to psychoanalyse you and according to you, the world revolves around me...
If you're not concerned about how you appear to others, you wouldn't need to feel that someone is psychoanalysing* you.

You can see how he hasn't responded after that. That being said, I give zero fucks about anyone opinion about me. Your projection was such a fail that it backfired.

That being said, I'm new with L-1 terms and hammering. I'll try to use them but since I'm not familiar, i expect it will make me look scummy if i don't use them appropriately(?)

The point is that you can’t assume two people arguing will always include one town. I’m not applying it to any particular case in this game.

I'm not assuming that. I'm just saying how this idea of bussing doesn't apply to this case.

What I’m saying is that formerfish hadn’t posted before 190, so I think him choosing to vote you isn’t related to you voting me. Like it’s not like he was being unaggressive before you voted me and then suddenly became aggressive; he just hadn’t posted at all before that.

Fish posted before this but nothing much in particular. On 190, I voted for you and responded in particular to this post.

If I'm right that lilith's mafia, they could nk me or the others who suspect them and put the blame on Freddie since I suspected them.

It was part of an idea I had to draw out scum. I put myself up as bait and say "investigate this person if I get NK'd".
It's hilarious how he says:
"I don't like when people act like they know me and can read my mental state in a few posts in an online forum game."
Despite saying this about me:
"Are you famous or something? I know I was in rehab for a month, but I doubt you blew up on this site that fast that I should know you, and if I dont know you dying tonight probably isnt in your cards."
^ Because you know, that's totally not acting like they know me and can read my "mental state" despite the fact that he indeed should follow his own advice of "That's insulting in so many ways. People should keep those types of terms out of their mouths"
But well, you know how it works. It's fine for him to act that way but not others :3

Anyhow, apart from strange activity from his end, the bait (about me potentially being NK'd) I used was a way to draw out scum. He took it.

well yeah bussing is unlikely, but there could easily be a staged fight

Personally, I'm not interested in drama regardless of alignment. Mafia is a drama game, but this shit isn't up my alley. I'm blunt and to the point.

Apart from my personal interested, mafia shouldn't be able to talk to each other until at night. So it's not like they can read each other minds and agree beforehand that they should stage a fight.
So again, those claims don't work in this context.

People I think are town:
freddie, votato, feathers, gibus

People I think are mafia:
fish, lilith

Since I'm not sure about the rest, they are more likely to be town. It's likely that I'm wrong so I will keep my suspicion for now.
Will be posting again after mostly WFH ;p

I'm not assuming that. I'm just saying how this idea of bussing doesn't apply to this case.

So, in your opinion bussing isnt an option here. Why not? How much experience do you have with vetting potential bussing votes? Are you an expert?

Fish posted before this but nothing much in particular. On 190, I voted for you and responded in particular to this post.

I had an opening post from when the game first started, and then a prodge saying id be here. Then in 194 i clearly indicated that I would be reading and then did so and posted. So I agree that you dont have much of a base of knowledge to work with in regards to what is normal and abnormal for me personally, and I dont recommend trying to fit me into any prefab categories.

It was part of an idea I had to draw out scum. I put myself up as bait and say "investigate this person if I get NK'd".

How exactly does your idea help draw out scum? All I see if you randomly saying you have a FOS on Lil and if you get nked to look at her. That's a bit obvious of a move dont you think? I mean scum could easily not kill you, because lets be honest if youre town youre more of a boon to us then you are to scum, and then your gambit was meaningless.

It's hilarious how he says:
"I don't like when people act like they know me and can read my mental state in a few posts in an online forum game."
Despite saying this about me:
"Are you famous or something? I know I was in rehab for a month, but I doubt you blew up on this site that fast that I should know you, and if I dont know you dying tonight probably isnt in your cards."

There is a difference between saying someones mental state has been triggered by someone else, and me saying I don't know you therefore don't put much stock in anything you say.

^ Because you know, that's totally not acting like they know me and can read my "mental state" despite the fact that he indeed should follow his own advice of "That's insulting in so many ways. People should keep those types of terms out of their mouths"
But well, you know how it works. It's fine for him to act that way but not others :3

My comments have nothing to do with your mental or emotional state.

Youre setting up a false dichotomy between the two when they aren't even remotely the same type of comment.

Anyhow, apart from strange activity from his end, the bait (about me potentially being NK'd) I used was a way to draw out scum. He took it.

How does your offering yourself up as bait draw out scum? Have you run this gambit successfully before and you can show how my reaction is just like every other scum reaction that youve witnessed running this incredibly innovative and unique gambit? Like, you can't just say i did this to draw out scum and then viola scum reacted...

So again, those claims don't work in this context.

Does it change anything to know that this statement is very wrong? Knowing that scum have day talk should make you reevaluate your reads, but I doubt youll do that, confbias is a real bitch to overcome when you arent actually looking for truth.

I am really confused how you can be scumreading me primarily due to what you think is fish chainsaw defending me. Do you think that scum blatantly defend each other in this game?

That's not my only reason
159

I bolded it on my end.
That being said, it's quite clear that Freddie is scum since they're trying to buddy me with Lilith. Also saying I'm lurking which is false, my time zone is on the other side of the world. By the time I get online, there's not much for me to contribute to. If you want to say that's scummy, it's fine but there's more town than scum here.

Despite I think fred's town, I still think you're being buddied with other town members.
I also suspect bass but more onto you thanks to fish.

So, in your opinion bussing isnt an option here. Why not? How much experience do you have with vetting potential bussing votes? Are you an expert?

I didn't say "it isn't an option".

How exactly does your idea help draw out scum? All I see if you randomly saying you have a FOS on Lil and if you get nked to look at her. That's a bit obvious of a move dont you think? I mean scum could easily not kill you, because lets be honest if youre town youre more of a boon to us then you are to scum, and then your gambit was meaningless.

I could had mentioned another player here but the result would be the same. I've recalled seeing this work on previous games so I thought I give it a shot. If it doesn't, then whatever.

But i guess im just triggered and this is nothing but an omgus vote. I suppose we shall see what it will be, because after you flip there'll be no more of your lip.

I'm not a boon to town, only you. And you're going to go out of your way to lynch me regardless of my alignment which is not only a scum move but overall bad for this game.

There is a difference between saying someones mental state has been triggered by someone else, and me saying I don't know you therefore don't put much stock in anything you say.

The only person talking about mental states, therapy, etc is you

Youre setting up a false dichotomy between the two when they aren't even remotely the same type of comment.

Oh, so saying:
"Are you famous or something? I know I was in rehab for a month, but I doubt you blew up on this site that fast that I should know you, and if I dont know you dying tonight probably isnt in your cards."
isn't "act like they know me and can read my mental state in a few posts in an online forum game."
You say it's false because you fallacies only work when you use it.

Does it change anything to know that this statement is very wrong? Knowing that scum have day talk should make you reevaluate your reads, but I doubt youll do that, confbias is a real bitch to overcome when you arent actually looking for truth.

Definitely NOT acting like you know me and can read my mental state in this sentence.
But of course, only you can tell others to "reevaluate your reads, but I doubt youll do that, confbias is a real bitch to overcome when you arent actually looking for truth."

Anyhow, I missed out this day chat thing from the mod. So that makes me scum and I'm making an insane far fetched lie? Like you know, if I DID had access to a chat like this and start saying that I don't it would be really insane imo. But of course you are free to claim that I'm insane - the privilege of reading one's mental state only works for you.

484
Sounds like something a celebrity would say.

#27 - Lilith "saved" fish from themselves in the RVS stage
#46 - Feathers seems to get quite an early feel from votato being town
#83 - feathers says they're VT and votato says why they think they're town #115
#92 - Freddie being paranoid about gibus's RVS - town vibe
#98 - votato generally being helpful - town vibe as explained by feathers in #111
#117 - feathers also being paranoid and talks about Lilith in the suspect list
#119 & 124 - Freddie talks about Lilith "protecting ironcat" and spelling out their suspect about lilith
#127 - Lilith talks about wanting to get out of RVS asap which is agreed by town as a mafia move
#140 - I say Fred is budding me up with Lilith which feels like something scum would do, I also wanted to figure out about coming out of rvs
#144 - gibus is convinced that either Lilith or Freddie is town
#148 - I set up bait of "if I get NK'd investigate Lilith" to test gibus theory
#153 - gibus claim quicksolve - Lilith, fish and bass, explains their solve in #178 and #213
#157 - a list of people I suspect in order of scummiest to least, also talked about not seeing much from fish in #158. List explained in #189
#190 - from gibus quicksolve, I deduced that Freddie might be town and voted for Lilith and updated the list in #192
#197 - fish talks about feathers defending + voted for votato
#198 - votato talks about possible masons in the game
#201 - feathers pretty much described me in a nutshell
#204 - fish seems to have taken the bait to my "investigate Lilith if I get nk"
#208 - fish talks about gibus suspecting active people despite I was considered "lurking" before that
#218 - I briefly explained my reasons behind my bait as well as #219
#221 - fish says I'm psychoanalysing him and psychoanalyse me for being "concerned with how I appear to people".
#224 - fish wants me lynched regardless of my alignment
#234 - gibus suspects copycat and votato are masons
#236 - copykat points out why they think votato is town
#224 - I suspect lilth and fish as scum
#257 - copykat suspects me and fish as scum lovers who broke up and points out in the next post that scum is interested to find for masons
#274 - copykat votes gibus for a reasonable reason of how scum could slip while guessing who masons are
#278 - feathers tries to prevent a bandwagon
#283 - bass feels that kat is mercenary and explains why in #291 & #318
#293 - feathers talks about how bass is doing what he accuses copy kat of (he seems to be jumping from a full scum team guess to a full move off the same guess too quickly for my liking.)
#295 - votato talks about voting copykat
#316 - votato pairs me up with copykat and says that copykat is willing to kill ANYONE in #324 and does not see any merit in copykat's vote on gibus scumslipping
#341 - i pointed out how the votes moved from gibus to copykat. Points out how votato and bass are taking the leads on votes. talked about how i scumslipped in an early game by pointing out who i suspect to be masons.
#345 - freddie's reads
#351 - lilith points out how votato isnt afraid to push off people's potential scumread on them and points out gibus rvs as "scary" in #353
#356 - feathers talks about the experienced people moving their vote away from gibus
#368 - my town reads excluding fish
#372 - lilith joins on the wagon for copykat with the cheap reason of the gibus slip
#387 - fish suggesting people to ask bass about him
#391 - gibus tier reads with colours! explained in #445
#394 - lilith "oh i see you're not being an asshole to me, that's good. you can be an asshole to anyone, not just me (confirmed in #448)" despite originally talking about fish bad playstyle in the game in #389.
#413 - copykat asks "why would scum!me pass on the opportunity to vote gibus for calling out masons?", + "when I try to interact with the people voting for me and provide explanations they are all but ignored." lilith answers in #416
#415 - I ask town what would they do if copykat is scum or not, no answers
#429 - kat ties me up with fish (sounds kinky when i say it doesn't it)
#437 - gibus points out why the bus from me to fish wouldn't work and thinks either one of us is town
#441 - lilith jumps on the opportunity on the putting me up for bussing fish
#445 - gibus talks about his suspicion on lilith and bass which i concur in #447
#446 - feathers talks about their suspicion of how defensive fish is and how "I'm doing something but I can't say" as seen in #397
#455 - i briefly break down my suspicion on fish and talked about my idea of drawing out scum in #460. also missed out that mafia is able to talk in the day. reads in #461
#468 - fish points my idea to draw out scum might not work and then talks about his superior playstyle in #473 and #484. joins lilith on the idea of me bussing
#477 - gibus reads on fishy
#487 - meta fish post and post counts in #488 . also his town reads in #491
#494 - i point out on how fish is trying to set me up for not knowing about mafia day chat
#497 onwards - lilith tries to say i'm onto her for no reason
#506 - fish meta post on votato and will only talk about something votato is doing "later"
#515 - votato finally gives her reasons for voting copykat (i think it was feathers who was calling votato her)
#516 - lilith ignores that i had been talking about fish as well (nice distancing) and jumps on the votato analysis of copykat
#521 - copykat "both votato and lillith say we are better of lynching town than scum day one"

Anyhow, this analysis got me sure of my scum reads. Lilith and Fish.

Lilith cheaply jumps on any "leads" she can find. Such as the copykat slip and how I'm "bussing" fishyfriend. It's clear that her playstyle is scum.

Fish has shown themselves as town but thanks Lilith, it's clear that their interaction shows he's in her chat as well.

That being said, copy kat is town and so are the rest apart from these two that I've mentioned.

#27 - Lilith "saved" fish from themselves in the RVS stage
#46 - Feathers seems to get quite an early feel from votato being town
#83 - feathers says they're VT and votato says why they think they're town #115
#92 - Freddie being paranoid about gibus's RVS - town vibe
#98 - votato generally being helpful - town vibe as explained by feathers in #111
#117 - feathers also being paranoid and talks about Lilith in the suspect list
#119 & 124 - Freddie talks about Lilith "protecting ironcat" and spelling out their suspect about lilith
#127 - Lilith talks about wanting to get out of RVS asap which is agreed by town as a mafia move
#140 - I say Fred is budding me up with Lilith which feels like something scum would do, I also wanted to figure out about coming out of rvs
#144 - gibus is convinced that either Lilith or Freddie is town
#148 - I set up bait of "if I get NK'd investigate Lilith" to test gibus theory
#153 - gibus claim quicksolve - Lilith, fish and bass, explains their solve in #178 and #213
#157 - a list of people I suspect in order of scummiest to least, also talked about not seeing much from fish in #158. List explained in #189
#190 - from gibus quicksolve, I deduced that Freddie might be town and voted for Lilith and updated the list in #192
#197 - fish talks about feathers defending + voted for votato
#198 - votato talks about possible masons in the game
#201 - feathers pretty much described me in a nutshell
#204 - fish seems to have taken the bait to my "investigate Lilith if I get nk"
#208 - fish talks about gibus suspecting active people despite I was considered "lurking" before that
#218 - I briefly explained my reasons behind my bait as well as #219
#221 - fish says I'm psychoanalysing him and psychoanalyse me for being "concerned with how I appear to people".
#224 - fish wants me lynched regardless of my alignment
#234 - gibus suspects copycat and votato are masons
#236 - copykat points out why they think votato is town
#224 - I suspect lilth and fish as scum
#257 - copykat suspects me and fish as scum lovers who broke up and points out in the next post that scum is interested to find for masons
#274 - copykat votes gibus for a reasonable reason of how scum could slip while guessing who masons are
#278 - feathers tries to prevent a bandwagon
#283 - bass feels that kat is mercenary and explains why in #291 & #318
#293 - feathers talks about how bass is doing what he accuses copy kat of (he seems to be jumping from a full scum team guess to a full move off the same guess too quickly for my liking.)
#295 - votato talks about voting copykat
#316 - votato pairs me up with copykat and says that copykat is willing to kill ANYONE in #324 and does not see any merit in copykat's vote on gibus scumslipping
#341 - i pointed out how the votes moved from gibus to copykat. Points out how votato and bass are taking the leads on votes. talked about how i scumslipped in an early game by pointing out who i suspect to be masons.
#345 - freddie's reads
#351 - lilith points out how votato isnt afraid to push off people's potential scumread on them and points out gibus rvs as "scary" in #353
#356 - feathers talks about the experienced people moving their vote away from gibus
#368 - my town reads excluding fish
#372 - lilith joins on the wagon for copykat with the cheap reason of the gibus slip
#387 - fish suggesting people to ask bass about him
#391 - gibus tier reads with colours! explained in #445
#394 - lilith "oh i see you're not being an asshole to me, that's good. you can be an asshole to anyone, not just me (confirmed in #448)" despite originally talking about fish bad playstyle in the game in #389.
#413 - copykat asks "why would scum!me pass on the opportunity to vote gibus for calling out masons?", + "when I try to interact with the people voting for me and provide explanations they are all but ignored." lilith answers in #416
#415 - I ask town what would they do if copykat is scum or not, no answers
#429 - kat ties me up with fish (sounds kinky when i say it doesn't it)
#437 - gibus points out why the bus from me to fish wouldn't work and thinks either one of us is town
#441 - lilith jumps on the opportunity on the putting me up for bussing fish
#445 - gibus talks about his suspicion on lilith and bass which i concur in #447
#446 - feathers talks about their suspicion of how defensive fish is and how "I'm doing something but I can't say" as seen in #397
#455 - i briefly break down my suspicion on fish and talked about my idea of drawing out scum in #460. also missed out that mafia is able to talk in the day. reads in #461
#468 - fish points my idea to draw out scum might not work and then talks about his superior playstyle in #473 and #484. joins lilith on the idea of me bussing
#477 - gibus reads on fishy
#487 - meta fish post and post counts in #488 . also his town reads in #491
#494 - i point out on how fish is trying to set me up for not knowing about mafia day chat
#497 onwards - lilith tries to say i'm onto her for no reason
#506 - fish meta post on votato and will only talk about something votato is doing "later"
#515 - votato finally gives her reasons for voting copykat (i think it was feathers who was calling votato her)
#516 - lilith ignores that i had been talking about fish as well (nice distancing) and jumps on the votato analysis of copykat
#521 - copykat "both votato and lillith say we are better of lynching town than scum day one"

Most of this wall of text is just a synopsis of that posts. There is very little analysis of what any of it means. You've wasted your own time for writing it, and ours for having to read it.

You're a trash player and it's time to start a trash fire

So I know this is useless, but I'll just wrap things up before I call it a day.

I'll narrow down why I consider Lilith and Fish are mafia and how I came to this conclusion.
This game is so heavy town that I drew it

twice

. With that, I come to the assumption I'm talking to town most of the time, but how do I filter out who's town and who's not?
So I did something counterintuitive and started out with a "process of elimination". I listed my suspicions from most to least (157) and eliminate my suspicion of them heavily due to their playstyle rather than what they say. I didn't check if they were behaving aggressive or not, but rather

consistent

.

It was easy to boil down from my highest suspect to the least: Lilith, bass, fish, feathers, kat and gibus.

Fomerfish
After I point out of him not posting much apart from "hi I'm here post". He posted more until I talked about the bait.
From that moment, he had been behaving defensive and accusing people of what he's doing.
One of the scummiest consistent behaviour I've observed is his determination to lynch someone (in this case, me) regardless of their alignment. The very same thing that copykat was accused of. This happened from the very beginning as observed in my meta post. 526

Lilith
Lilith had been jumping on "leads" and adding to them in order to lynch someone.
It started with copykat and her jumping on with her own reasoning as to why he is scummy.
Then she took the lead with someone talking about how I could potentially bus someone.
Noticed how in these cases, she didn't came up with the point but

jumps

on them. This is the mercenary feeling that bass was talking about, but he didn't see it in lilith.
Her scummy behaviour is not to help town, it is to

lynch

town.

Since I'm only able to narrow down the people I suspect as scum to two, I believe the rest are town.

[lilith2013]

if freddie flips town, however remote that possibility, votato should be powerlynched the following day

Is there a typo in this or are you saying that only scum Vota would be able to have that sure of a read on town Freddie?

Ohhhhh

I guess that makes some sense but I'm not sure why scumtato would want to stick his neck that far out even if this was the case?

Does this mean you think votato is town?

[lilith2013]

@nauci ^