Newbie 2011 - Game Over

[Freddiethelady]

thanks battle. hi all!

all i know about broken windows is a fallacy about them (if you don't know it go read it!). if anyone cares to explain what scum catch bricks means, id appreciate it.

VOTE: midwaybear you really fooled me last time.

[Freddiethelady]

1. yes.
2. turquoise
3. 7.98
4. friend if your scum. i like to keep my friends close, but my enemies closer.

[Freddiethelady]

I answered without looking at anyone else's answers. i said yes because its a silly question, requiring a silly answer - you can't guarantee anyone will answer that honestly, so why ask it? searching for substance requires thoughtful questions, wouldn't you agree?

BM have you asked it before? was your question mark meant to be an exclamation mark?

[Freddiethelady]

4. friend if your scum. i like to keep my friends close, but my enemies closer.

freddie's answers a bit weird though
her first answer doesn't make sense, and her last one is interesting

it does imply her enemies would be the town then? I assume that's a genuine mistake

haha! yes, a genuine mistake - that's what i get for trying to be clever.

[Freddiethelady]

Random Question Stage

1. Are you town or mafia?
2. What's your favourite colour?
3. How upset will you be if you're lynched on Day 1? (out of 10)
4. Would you prefer to be my friend or my enemy?

Let's get it on!

Why don't you give us your answers?

[Freddiethelady]

you thought I asked "are you mafia?" because votato said yes? That is very odd. If he said yes, surely you'd assume the question was "are you town?"

votato is a troll, so that's why I thought the question was are you maf

what makes him a troll? im familiar with the term "trolling" i want to check if it is some mafia lingo im missing.

[Freddiethelady]

is BM's L-1 vote on GeneralWu AI? It tells me he is a more spur of the moment player, so we should look out for that later.

i didn't see BM put the general in L-1 status. i thought it took 5 players to lynch (and there were never 4 people voting for the general) so how is this/could this be AI or even a relevant? i must be missing something.

[Freddiethelady]

is BM's L-1 vote on GeneralWu AI? It tells me he is a more spur of the moment player, so we should look out for that later.

i didn't see BM put the general in L-1 status. i thought it took 5 players to lynch (and there were never 4 people voting for the general) so how is this/could this be AI or even a relevant? i must be missing something.

Briefly on page 2 GeneralWu had 4 votes I believe.
Idk if it is AI but it's kinda eh to do that

Ohhh, i see that. and BM announced it! he may have said that because he is super confident about his role...now i see why it might be AI.

[Freddiethelady]

3. How upset will you be if you're lynched on Day 1? (out of 10)

How does asking and/or answering this question help town? It almost seems like scum rolehunting.

bruh it's RVS, but apparently scum are more likely to answer in the 6-8 range.

I agree with Apogee that BM isn't really looking scummy. Not sure what Agar saw that I didn't.

Why would scum answer between the 6-8 range?

[Freddiethelady]

@Freddiethelady:

I hardly have any read on you, other than a slight scum read from lack of any content. What do you think of Apogee's vote on me?

@gobbledygook:

Same to you, but you have an excuse.

GG and I aren't the only ones who haven't been posting a lot. the average post is 14.4 right now with me being at 9 posts - thats low but all the players with the exceptions of BM and midway have posted lower than the average. why only call us out?

apogee talks about how he likes that Agar puts himself out there by casing and pushing people in post 130. is that sheeping? or is that a newbit trying to learn and imitate something that makes sense to him? cause i've done that and been accused of sheeping when i was just trying to imitate. i guess that's up to me to decide so to answer your question sleeper, im a long way off from establishing which it is. am i missing alternative options?

[Freddiethelady]

Haha, I feel vindicated!

I literally made this same argument when I first saw these questions too, don't worry!

I recall somebody here had read the game in question, so they can presumably vouch for me on that.

I'm assuming someone else made up this list in a game you played in, right? if so, what were the results? was it possible to see if it was more helpful to town or scum? you also said it was interesting to see who took the post seriously and who didn't. why did you say that?

sorry to bring this back up but it just occurred to me that it might be helpful for the future

[Freddiethelady]

There has to be scum between AGar and BM. I'm leaning towards BM being scum.

With that out of the way, we should be focusing on players that haven't been pushing the game forwards so much or making themselves readable.

why out of the two did you select BM as scum?

[Freddiethelady]

I think Agar is town. Still catching up though.

based on what?

gg, im interested in your answer also.

[Freddiethelady]

BM and Agar in your posts 169 168 id like to ask you both what are the chances that sleeper is making rookie mistakes in your opinion? his continuous references to his gut-feelsies is bad town behavior, and equally bad as a scum behavior. from what i gather, i assume that a newbie scum would probably be far more hesitant to take a stance on issues since he has to fake his town role, where as a town newbie might appear flaky because of his eagerness to participate. my read on him leans town right now. i think he is an easy target right now because he is active in the game...it feels a bit scummy to shade him for that Agar and BM imo.

As for BM this is the only thing that feels scummy to me about you in this moment. i haven't been able to get a read on the agar except that if its true that he is an aggressive player, then i probably won't interact with him well but i will make an effort to be cordial. im trying to learn still and the aggressive people i experienced the last game i played were downright miserable resulting in suspensions. i really hope it won't be a repeat of that!

midway, tell me more about why you read sleeper as town.

where's the unicorn boy? (hes definitely not an ass with a carrot on his face).

GG I hope you're feeling better!

Thank you everyone for the clarification between pocketing and sheeping.

[Freddiethelady]

you're an ass.

Nice rebuttal.

[Freddiethelady]

BM and Agar in your posts 169 168 id like to ask you both what are the chances that sleeper is making rookie mistakes in your opinion? his continuous references to his gut-feelsies is bad town behavior, and equally bad as a scum behavior. from what i gather, i assume that a newbie scum would probably be far more hesitant to take a stance on issues since he has to fake his town role, where as a town newbie might appear flaky because of his eagerness to participate. my read on him leans town right now. i think he is an easy target right now because he is active in the game...it feels a bit scummy to shade him for that Agar and BM imo.

I don't think gut is indicative of alignment in either direction - plenty of the best players I know start their reads off with gut and then progress from there. Sometimes it's just a perception of how you're posting or interacting that can't be defined that gives someone a tell on alignment. I lean mildly scummy on Sleeper based on what I said in 169, namely his seemingly trying to keep a lot of avenues open, but it's not anything that I'm looking to pursue with a wagon at this point. I'm much more happy trying to garner steam on a GWu wagon at the moment, unless Sleeper moves themselves more firmly into a scumread. It looks like you're townreading Sleeper by this post - why are you pushing on midway's townread of him, then?

GWu's posted some surface level content and interaction but doesn't appear to be making any :real: effort to divine the alignments of other players. The defense of BM in 94 still reads too informed to me. 170 uses the word "cautious" a lot when describing Sleeper but that post comes in basically reiterating what BM and I had already posited about Sleeper - it's not a new stance, and it's even - to borrow the descriptor - cautious in and of itself. It hems and haws on the possibility that Sleeper's being cautious but maybe he's just new. Or maybe he doesn't have reads yet. GWu seems very content right now to appear to be scumhunting but not actually contributing to anything.

@midway, gobble

Some scumreads/leans please? Posts that pinged you?

@Apogee

How do you feel about Sleeper at this point? There's been a good bit of posts since #121. Has the read evolved at all?

midway's townread of sleeper? humm i must have missed that. let me get back to you on that. i am on the fence about townreading sleeper, yet i will say that im moderately more comfortable reading the posts that way. {i said "my read on him leans town...(because) i assume that a newbie scum would probably be far more hesitant to take a stance on issues since he has to fake his town role, where as a town newbie might appear flaky because of his eagerness to participate"}. im willing to wait

a little while

to see if the flakiness is indeed eagerness to participate...confirmation bias is real and i might just be hoping/searching for that so i need a little more from him.

Some scumreads/leans please? Posts that pinged you?

honestly no scumreads so far. Everyone except for you and BM have played relatively safe games so far.
might have to reread sometime to find posts that ping me. I think I'll try to defend sleeper.

@Apogee

midway, it seems that a lot of people pointing out that you're posts are rather limp...then you say this. it doesn't seem like you're trying to prove anyone wrong. also, apparently you already have been defending him. care to comment? (still going to look into this @agar.)

I agree with your read on AGar.
I also townread Apogee, but not because of the advice-giving.

Anyone can give you advice like that, so it's generally NAI. In fact, in my experience both town and scum players can give advice to first-timers.

About Freddie, I don't think a one-game sample size is enough to judge her, and I don't quite understand why you townread her because she says things that are different from what you think. I also don't think meta-reading someone is enough, because she can purposely emulate her playstyle in another game.
About midway, he hasn't done much this game to be honest.
About gobbledygook, he also hasn't done anything yet. Also he said he wasn't active because he was sick, so he's probably not intentionally lurking.
About BM, I think he's pretty towny. Also, why do you think this game is mostly TvT fighting?

Also why were you "intentionally serving as bait for scum to jump on"?
This line kinda makes you seem like you're trying to cover up your mistakes from earlier by saying "oh yeah I was purposely messing up".

Also I just realized that while talking about Sleeper's reads, I posted a readlist of my own lol.

hey General, where is your read on votato? I agree with the bold statement above about both scum and town giving advice to newbies. and i am interested in hearing why you think BM also about his read being too informed.

one last point: i played my first game with midway he was cheerful and generally casual - actually it reminds me of how BM looks in this game. that reminds me, @agar, your post about BM being dense jumped out at me making me think about doing some meta reading...which i have no time for. ugghhh i know should probably do my own research but it seems the jury is out on how important meta reading is. people i respect who have played here before have said that its helpful to get a baseline for personality and gamestyle. i guess i have to do it even though i really,

really

don't want to. thoughts anyone?

@sleeper (one newbie to another) in my last game, i was fool tremendously by a player who gave good advice, was kind, and encouraged me. when she flipped scum i was flabbergasted. utterly speechless. i aspire to be like her when i grow up (in this game)...i typically try not to imitate liars irl fyi lol

[Freddiethelady]

the end of my post to general was supposed to say: where did you get this "why do you say my defense of BM was "way too informed"?" not:

why you think BM also about his read being too informed

[Freddiethelady]

Your advice helped me reflect on how my posts are perceived and about reading between the lines - it encouraged me to be more deliberate. I also read some guides, game's rules over again, and the dead-thread/mafia-thread from our last game. I am the kind of person who needs to apply the rules before things become apparent which is why things really started to click while reading those threads. It gave me the bird's eye view about how town players protect their interest and how scum players manipulate as well as the overlap first hand. I'm still learning but overall I do feel a lot better about participating!

[Freddiethelady]

Freddie did you get a lot of advice from someone since your last game? Or have you read a bunch of guides or something?

coached in the scum pt

Ha! I had a feeling someone would say that. See my post above. Votato and I played together before and after the game we talked about how I can improve. we're friends irl.

[Freddiethelady]

hmm im leaning towards the scum PT being more likely, but we will see. if you are scum, your partner is probably (in decreasing order) {gobbles, apogee, GWu, sleepersoul}. gobbles would be the most likely

who are you talking to?

[Freddiethelady]

Also why were you "intentionally serving as bait for scum to jump on"?

It's a strategy I adopted from IRL play. My friends all know I don't like playing as scum, and I'm too easy to read as scum. So I play scummy in the beginning to try to get scum on my side and then turn on them. I was always confident in my ability to be read as innocent. This was in an Avalon setup where scum didn't know who one of their members was.

I was trying to do some 5D plays, but I realize I'm probably not good/readable enough to do it here.

I don't know what Avalon is so im just shooting from the hip here but do you think is it wise to use strategies from a different game (among friends who know you well) here? or is this your attempt at covering up some bad behaviors up. to make reference to my own metric, you're sounding less eager and more suspicious. if its a good strategy to use yourself 'scum bait' then you're more strategic than i originally thought, in which case, you're somewhat erratic behavior looks more suspicious then newbie behavior

[Freddiethelady]

Obviously all scum wants to find town PRs. But scum PRs are more excited/preoccupied about finding targets because they will be doing the targeting.

....

This is a take I suppose?

what is a take? and who is taking it?

[Freddiethelady]

am i allowed to name players from the other game? its over

[Freddiethelady]

Obviously all scum wants to find town PRs. But scum PRs are more excited/preoccupied about finding targets because they will be doing the targeting.

....

This is a take I suppose?

what is a take? and who is taking it?

sleepersoul in the quoted post

what is a take?

[Freddiethelady]

hmm im leaning towards the scum PT being more likely, but we will see. if you are scum, your partner is probably (in decreasing order) {gobbles, apogee, GWu, sleepersoul}. gobbles would be the most likely

who are you talking to?

you.

the reason i think it would be those people is that i think the coaching would have to come from someone experienced. for example, i dont think i ever told freddie that scum would be hesitant to take a firm stance, but i think gobbles or apogee might give such advice. or maybe it was me. in any case in both prior games it was immediately obvious to me that freddie was town, but in this game im having trouble, which probably just means that freddie is learning (good), but still gives me the heebiee jeebiees (sp?) (bad).

avalon is a mafia variant that you can buy in stores and has specific role cards etc. its essentially the same, but a bit different.

im just going to risk naming the other players for clarification.

well for one thing, votato, you definitely told me about how scum want to appear. i also learned from reading the mafia thread, that lilith was telling feathers stuff like don't take too strong a stance (on d1), and when you do be sure you sound objective and thoughtful. so applying the other things i've learned like reading between the lines, it is likely a reasonable deduction to make.

another thing, you said my scum partners might be {gobbles, apogee, GWu, sleepersoul} in that order. why did you chose those four? i've yet to hear you scum read any of them. thats super suspicious in my mind. also, gobbles has barely appeared (and been prodded at least once if not twice). which is relevant to my pondering of the question how can you be sure that he would be my likely scumpartner? you haven't seen his style unless you know him from somewhere else and maybe he's a bad player. if he's a bad player and he's coaching me in the scum thread then that would disprove your assumption that he could coach me, immediately. so it tells me you're taking a shot in the dark at assuming gobbles is a good enough player to coach me which is a big assumption to make. i expect more from you votato.

[Freddiethelady]

I missed this earlier.

hmm im leaning towards the scum PT being more likely, but we will see. if you are scum, your partner is probably (in decreasing order) {gobbles, apogee, GWu, sleepersoul}. gobbles would be the most likely

Are you saying you think Freddie could be scum PR? I tend to agree. I keep getting the feeling she's looking for town PRs.

the whole conversation about scum PRs got started with this misunderstanding. votato said he thinks i learned from scum PT not PR, right?

[Freddiethelady]

why are you assuming theres a scum PR?

I'm not. I'm just saying it's more likely.

why are you saying this? and why is it relevant?

[Freddiethelady]

The defense of BM in 94 still reads too informed to me.

how is this too informed agar? you've been dodging the question

[Freddiethelady]

Yeah, I just realized that votato was talking about the "private thread".

At this point I feel pretty reluctant to share my thoughts, because it seems everything I do is wrong.

I think I need to hard claim noob here. If at any point I gave the impression that I was good at this game, that was my mistake.

I'll try to keep helping town, but expect me to mess up. I know this is a bad defense but what can I do?

remember its just a game. i've been there and it sucks. try not to worry too much!! it will get better.

[Freddiethelady]

hmm im leaning towards the scum PT being more likely, but we will see. if you are scum, your partner is probably (in decreasing order) {gobbles, apogee, GWu, sleepersoul}. gobbles would be the most likely

who are you talking to?

you.

the reason i think it would be those people is that i think the coaching would have to come from someone experienced. for example, i dont think i ever told freddie that scum would be hesitant to take a firm stance, but i think gobbles or apogee might give such advice. or maybe it was me. in any case in both prior games it was immediately obvious to me that freddie was town, but in this game im having trouble, which probably just means that freddie is learning (good), but still gives me the heebiee jeebiees (sp?) (bad).

avalon is a mafia variant that you can buy in stores and has specific role cards etc. its essentially the same, but a bit different.

im just going to risk naming the other players for clarification.

well for one thing, votato, you definitely told me about how scum want to appear. i also learned from reading the mafia thread, that lilith was telling feathers stuff like don't take too strong a stance (on d1), and when you do be sure you sound objective and thoughtful. so applying the other things i've learned like reading between the lines, it is likely a reasonable deduction to make.

another thing, you said my scum partners might be {gobbles, apogee, GWu, sleepersoul} in that order. why did you chose those four? i've yet to hear you scum read any of them. thats super suspicious in my mind. also, gobbles has barely appeared (and been prodded at least once if not twice). which is relevant to my pondering of the question how can you be sure that he would be my likely scumpartner? you haven't seen his style unless you know him from somewhere else and maybe he's a bad player. if he's a bad player and he's coaching me in the scum thread then that would disprove your assumption that he could coach me, immediately. so it tells me you're taking a shot in the dark at assuming gobbles is a good enough player to coach me which is a big assumption to make. i expect more from you votato.

ive played quite a few games with gobbles and gobbles is a good player. gobbles lurking is unrelated to skill, and NAI. gobbles is good so could be coaching you. i know that, so can draw the comparison. but yeah pre-flip associatives are bad so its unlikely that you are both scum. why pick out gobbles from that list to attack me for?

you didn't answer my question about why you chose those four to pair with me...and followed it up with "i have yet to see you scum read any of them" so while i did only isolate gobbles, you did say he was the most likely to be my scumbuddy, so i thought i would start there...especially since there was nothing to go off of with the others.

[Freddiethelady]

Spoiler: sleeper quotes

You know, originally my BM vote wasn't that serious, it was just a pure gut-read with a silly justification added on top. But now that I've reread everything, I'm starting to actually suspect BM a little bit.

The amount of activity this early comes off as LAMIST to me, and the overall tone seems a little too paranoid. Too bad he's away for 3 days. Maybe the flurry of activity early on was in anticipation of being away for a few days.

But it's the activity in combination with overall tone. He seems slightly more tense than in the one game of his I've read (newbie game 2004).

So rather than my vote being pretty much random/pure gut-read, it's actually slightly substantiated now. Either that or I'm confbiasing because I want my gut-read to be right.

It's early, so this read is not very strong, but it's the only one I have and I figured I'd share what I'm thinking.

His reasons for scumreading are an extreme reach, and it almost sounds like he is scumreading someone just for the sake of a scumread. However, he does back it up with meta, and high effort is generally townie(not always though). Additionally, it is redeemed by what he said in the bolded part. He sorta acknowledges the read is weak, but that he wanted to share his thoughts. This is definitely town motivated.

3. How upset will you be if you're lynched on Day 1? (out of 10)

How does asking and/or answering this question help town? It almost seems like scum rolehunting.

This is actually an interesting quote because it relates to sleeper talking about scum rolehunting like he suspected freddie of doing. I know in Avalon, it's really important for scum to figure out who certain town PRs are, so perhaps this is why he has brought it up.

I pretty much agree with everything GeneralWu just said in post 94.

It seems like AGar is too eager to lynch BM. To me it would have seemed townier if AGar toned down his scumread on BM, but instead he doubled down with even weaker arguments. I wanted to see some stronger arguments, or a retraction, not a piling-on of weaker arguments. Like, I want my initial gut-read to be right too, but I'm willing to be wrong on that.

Now he flips onto Agar attacking Battle Mage. The argument for scumreading Agar here is good, and this also shows that he reconsiders reads which is also good.

The wiki says Chainsaw Defense is only a reliable scum tell when we already know mechanically that the defendee is scum, and I have to agree. Pretty sure that as an SE, AGar would know/agree with the wiki, though I'm not sure if him bringing it up is AI.

meh some light shade. I don't think this is necessarily scummy even if shading is generally considered so.

Yes, I see your point. It seems like AGar might be playing 'bad' on purpose... the question is, why?

ok this quote is pretty weird lol

Actually his overall game seems fine to me so far (in terms of optimal play, regardless of alignment), I was just referring specifically to his mentioning of the chainsaw defense.

now, Sleeper backtracks and says that he meant Agar's use of chainsaw defense was bad, and not overall play. I'm not sure I buy this, and it is sorta of sus.

There has to be scum between AGar and BM. I'm leaning towards BM being scum.

With that out of the way, we should be focusing on players that haven't been pushing the game forwards so much or making themselves readable.

this progression is weird because he doesn't really explain why he reads BM as scum, and he was just focused on Agar.

Can I hear from you what you think of my vote on you?

Sure. I don't mind your vote on me. I think you're picking up on my over-eagerness to move the game forward.

I am having a general feeling throughout this game that everything is moving too slowly. But this is my first forum mafia game. So I think I just need to get used to the pace of forum mafia.

Also... I haven't addressed the following because I wasn't sure how useful it would be to bring... But I have been somewhat holding back my reads this entire game. Up until now I ~feel~ like the general consensus has been that I'm obviously town. I have a (silly?) fear that by revealing my reads, mafia will know which of them is under the most danger. I do have a tendency towards tinfoil hattery...

I can see how your vote on me is probably coming from a town perspective. I was about to ping you for reads like I did freddie and GG, but your vote on me gave me a slight town read on you. So I pinged the remaining players who I have no real reads on.

This reads as really LAMIST now. Yikes. I don't see scum ever saying that they are a consensus townread in this situation, so this is one of those little moments that make a townread.

I was waiting for AGar to comment on you two being TvT before touching my vote, but sure, I'll change it to you now.

VOTE: Battle Mage

I feel you've consistently been the scummiest player this whole game.

why out of the two did you select BM as scum?

Because AGar seems to agree with me more, and BM was my initial gut read.

If you're town, this is V bad.

I agree that this is bad, but I don't really know how to justify my reads that well because they are mainly based on gut.

Yeah, that was also a bit strange, but Sleeper seems honest about admitting where his game can improve which is townie.

Also why were you "intentionally serving as bait for scum to jump on"?

It's a strategy I adopted from IRL play. My friends all know I don't like playing as scum, and I'm too easy to read as scum. So I play scummy in the beginning to try to get scum on my side and then turn on them. I was always confident in my ability to be read as innocent. This was in an Avalon setup where scum didn't know who one of their members was.

I was trying to do some 5D plays, but I realize I'm probably not good/readable enough to do it here.

lol another weirdly town post from Sleeper.

And then we have the PR Stuff.

Spoiler: stuff

Idk I sorta read sleeper like Apogee from game 2003, but Apogee was a little less awkwardly honest if you know what I mean. It's just that his explanations are sometimes weird, but he is a newbie and this is probably a result of him being used to a different meta.
There are also some quotes I didn't include which have sleeper prodding people for their thoughts which isn't necessarily townie, but still welcome. Yeah, I'm pretty confident that he's town, and I would like for an elaboration on the BM scumread.

VOTE: votato
I'm feeling it again

how did you go from stating some opinions about sleepers posts as some are town-ish, some are largely inexpiable, to voting votato with exactly zero explanation. that's wicked sus to me. please explain yourself.

[Freddiethelady]

also its kinda hilarious that midway is saying that townies wouldnt say they're consensus townreads, when i have seen midway confidently declare himself lockdown in two separate games when he wasnt locktown at all (he was town though)

what's lockdown?

[Freddiethelady]

Okay well since I trust freddie right now based on today's interaction, I'm going to VOTE: midwaybear.

It was her random vote but she's still suspicious.

hold up tiger! lol! you don't have to vote. i threw some exploration-questions midway's way but not because i was prepared to vote him, just feeling him out.

[Freddiethelady]

BM and Agar in your posts 169 168 id like to ask you both what are the chances that sleeper is making rookie mistakes in your opinion? his continuous references to his gut-feelsies is bad town behavior, and equally bad as a scum behavior. from what i gather, i assume that a newbie scum would probably be far more hesitant to take a stance on issues since he has to fake his town role, where as a town newbie might appear flaky because of his eagerness to participate. my read on him leans town right now. i think he is an easy target right now because he is active in the game...it feels a bit scummy to shade him for that Agar and BM imo.

As for BM this is the only thing that feels scummy to me about you in this moment. i haven't been able to get a read on the agar except that if its true that he is an aggressive player, then i probably won't interact with him well but i will make an effort to be cordial. im trying to learn still and the aggressive people i experienced the last game i played were downright miserable resulting in suspensions. i really hope it won't be a repeat of that!

I don't know if you saw but I replaced in to that game -

huge fan of your work

! And no thanks to me ultimately lynching your successor, you have a 100% winrate now.

To be honest, I play newbie games to avoid some of the more aggressive behaviour, so don't expect any of that here! People tend to be a lot nicer.

On reflection I'm not sure I understand your question above. He's been active, so you're right, that goes in his favour. I think his behaviour is far more likely to be scum than town, although it's possible he's town. The things I struggle to square are the inconsistencies and where what he is saying is just objectively and clearly not true. It's possible for town to do anything, and I'm not gonna slam the guy for making mistakes, whatever his alignment. I generally think having varied and changing opinions is a towntell, but there needs to be some basis for it (it can just be gut, but then you have to be honest about that). in this case he can't keep his story straight and has been exaggerating his reads...to achieve what? Nothing protown that I can see. In a world where AGar is town, I can easily imagine newbie-scum being very excited at us going at it, and trying to fuel it from the sidelines and get one of us lynched, which is basically how I read Sleeper's play. I may be wrong, of course.

midway, tell me more about why you read sleeper as town.

Why did you ask this question, when the two preceding posts were from different people asking this exact question? Did you think Midway would ignore them, but answer you?

nope, just reminding him that it wasn't answered and i had forgotten that i asked it, since it went unanswered.

re italics above: i thought my predecessor did a class job cleaning up my mess. you took over Fish didn't you? boy he was a piece of work. anyways, ill sign autographs after the game...always a pleasure to talk to a fan!

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but I'm reading in chronological order, and this pinged me.

Freddie questioning Midway about his Sleeper read, then claiming shortly afterwards he knew nothing about it, and really labouring the point that he'll go back and check this. Odd.

midway, tell me more about why you read sleeper as town.

It looks like you're townreading Sleeper by this post - why are you pushing on midway's townread of him, then?

midway's townread of sleeper? humm i must have missed that. let me get back to you on that....

midway, it seems that a lot of people pointing out that you're posts are rather limp...then you say this. it doesn't seem like you're trying to prove anyone wrong. also, apparently you already have been defending him. care to comment? (still going to look into this @agar.)

However, I have to say based on meta, Freddie is looking town to me right now.

he doesn't really explain himself. is it not a good idea to follow up on unanswered questions?

i don't really know why I SR you apogee. I noticed that you are playing different from 2003, but then I realized you were playing mostly the same? I'm not really sure. I think you are probably town herem yet not as strong as GWU.

this isn't a whole lot of context. again, midway, you're looking super sus to me because of posts like this: no context, no explanation, and nothing that pushes the game forward. im beginning to feel like a broken record.

[Freddiethelady]

UNVOTE: votato some of his early posts were a bit defensive, but I like this better
VOTE: freddie
she doesn't seem to have any scumreads at all which is

you've said multiple times that you town read me. start by telling us where that changed, then you can tell us about your reads. cause everyone has been asking now...

you're looking super scummy with your lack of context and multiple votes.

[Freddiethelady]

this isn't a whole lot of context. again, midway, you're looking super sus to me because of posts like this: no context, no explanation, and nothing that pushes the game forward. im beginning to feel like a broken record.

False. Read my iso.

you've said multiple times that you town read me.

False. I never townread you.

1 scum caught. 1 to go.
LAL

i apologize, you're right. you never town-read me. but you haven't really scum-read me either (i pinned one quote below which shows me in as

a passive thought

). as a matter of fact, you've not really read anyone. you've made statements but not justifications which is just noise in this game.

do I put sleeper soul at L-1 here? I'm really conflicted, and I would feel especially bad if he was town because he's new.

you vote the people you think are behaving in a scummy way! you started out by defending sleeper, then questioning him. now you're voting me? essentially, you're NOT voting the behavior you find questionable because you feel bad? but voting twice in a row for people without justification? i voted you in RVS so i can't vote again, but i would be voting you for that alone.

UNVOTE: votato some of his early posts were a bit defensive, but I like this better
VOTE: freddie
she doesn't seem to have any scumreads at all which is

neither do you! you haven't said anything - yet you're voting me because "she doesn't seem to have an scumreads at all which is ". this is a very bad town move, if you're in fact town.

am i supposed to convince you that you are scum
yeah, you might be town though. Having doubts on sleeper even though I defended him, so I might go votato-sleeper for my solve. But we probably shouldn't be speculating teams yet
GG and GWu I am decently confident in being town. I never scumread lurkers so yeah.
pedit: oops maybe

what happened to your votato-sleeper solve? i am pinning this to prove more inconsistencies.

town!midway would enlighten everyone with his insight for the betterment and health of the town. scum!midway wouldn't want to commit to anything because of no real justification for his behavior. it looks like the latter.

[Freddiethelady]

town!midway would enlighten everyone with his insight for the betterment and health of the town. scum!midway wouldn't want to commit to anything because of no real justification for his behavior. it looks like the latter.

Uh have you ever played with town!Midway before

I think it took him over a week to make a real case.

But yeah midway you are kind of lacking in the content department here like at all.

My first game ever played, he was scum. But I subbed in day two and hardly interacted with him or anyone else. So yes, but my experience with him wasn’t helpful to me now. Thanks for pointing that out

[Freddiethelady]

@battle

I enjoyed reading this

, and encourage others to do so. It would be scummy, except it's Freddie.

are you being sarcastic (in italic)? and can you elaborate about how that's scummy? i need to learn. also, you love me? aww shucks. what did i do to deserve that?

[Freddiethelady]

midway is the only person defending gg - based on his completely unfounded claims that gg is town. coincidence? as a matter of fact, i very certain that's the only thing midway has answered/spoken about "emphatically" is an inactive player. in addition, he hasn't answered any questions that votato and i, as well as a few others, have asked repetitively. that's wicked scummy!

bm makes a compelling argument about getting rid of GG, but i don't agree that we should policy lynch someone based on zero participation only. i think we should focus on those who are active and scummy and not those who we have a hunch about. midway wagon anyone?

[Freddiethelady]

bm makes a compelling argument about getting rid of GG, but i don't agree that we should policy lynch someone based on zero participation only.

you realize that's his only argument right?

are you asking me to defend BM and his arguments?

[Freddiethelady]

I'm okay with lynching midway if BM is a no go.

humm. by this, are you suggesting that you think that the scum pair is BM and midway?

[Freddiethelady]

also, gobbles has barely appeared (and been prodded at least once if not twice). which is relevant to my pondering of the question how can you be sure that he would be my likely scumpartner? you haven't seen his style unless you know him from somewhere else and maybe he's a bad player. if he's a bad player and he's coaching me in the scum thread then that would disprove your assumption that he could coach me, immediately. so it tells me you're taking a shot in the dark at assuming gobbles is a good enough player to coach me which is a big assumption to make. i expect more from you votato.

like wth is this logic? Freddie pulls the fact that gobbles is a bad player out of nowhere and uses it to attack votato.
what?

i wasn't attacking votato -- he brought it up and i was examining his train of thought. why would you take that as an attack?

[Freddiethelady]

mmm okay, my tone was a little aggressive midway, ill grant you that. but seriously, i was just examining his train of thought, not trying to attack him.

[Freddiethelady]

mmm okay, my tone was a little aggressive midway, ill grant you that. but seriously, i was just examining his train of thought, not trying to attack him.

[Freddiethelady]

VOTE: votato
I'm feeling it again

how did you go from stating some opinions about sleepers posts as some are town-ish, some are largely inexpiable, to voting votato with exactly zero explanation. that's wicked sus to me. please explain yourself.

I wanna echo this - how'd you get there, show your work please?

check out post 242 and 243 from midway. 242 under his sleeper-spoiler he makes some superficial, non-committal points that don't exactly help, they aren't bad, just blah. then in 243 he says "im feeling it again" and then votes potato, with nothing! then doesn't follow up, after being asked numerous times....then votes me, without explanation or follow up after being asked several times.

[Freddiethelady]

Hey BM, calculate this for me:

Who feels more guilty?

The townie who confuses everyone and gets mislynched, letting down himself and 7 other townies.

The scum who confuses everyone and gets mislynched, letting down himself and 1 scum.

I need the results on my desk yesterday, written on rice paper.

The mod who messes up and lets down everyone in the game.

Is the mod supposed to be doing something?

[Freddiethelady]

then doesn't follow up, after being asked numerous times....then votes me, without explanation or follow up after being asked several times.

I already outlined why I voted votato and I am willing to revote him.
I voted you because I felt that many of the questions you were asking were pretty useless and not that insightful/helpful to the game. However, I also feel like some of your posts(like the one regarding your read on sleepersoul) show genuine want to solve. So I think now is the time I unvote(for now?) Gotta look at the votato.

then doesn't follow up, after being asked numerous times....then votes me, without explanation or follow up after being asked several times.

I already outlined why I voted votato and I am willing to revote him.
I voted you because I felt that many of the questions you were asking were pretty useless and not that insightful/helpful to the game. However, I also feel like some of your posts(like the one regarding your read on sleepersoul) show genuine want to solve. So I think now is the time I unvote(for now?) Gotta look at the votato.

you actually havent outlined anything about your read on me.

midway!!!! neither one of us think you have addressed our questions about why you scum read us. it really bugs me you haven't answered us.

[Freddiethelady]

his interaction with BM sucks

that's such a limp justification.

[Freddiethelady]

@battle

I enjoyed reading this

, and encourage others to do so. It would be scummy, except it's Freddie.

are you being sarcastic (in italic)? and can you elaborate about how that's scummy? i need to learn. also, you love me? aww shucks. what did i do to deserve that?

Not sarcastic! you didn't quote the post so I can't remember. I think basically it was just mad logic, and a massive reach to argue votato was scum, but:

A. You could have been joking, in which case, who cares?
B. I saw you post some similarly mad stuff in your last game, and so I think a different rule applies here.

I'm also wary that if you're town, you're the sort of player scum would love to try and get a mislynch on.

Join me on Gobbledygook if you haven't already!

i forgot about this one 340 is what i was referring to. so what different rules apply here and why are you worried that im the sort of player scum would love to mislynch?

[Freddiethelady]

it's different here because gibus and poyzin both had content to evaluate. Gobble doesn't.
How about you let him talk before trying to power a wagon on him.

what am i missing: what is gibus and poyzin? are you confusing games?

[Freddiethelady]

it's different here because gibus and poyzin both had content to evaluate. Gobble doesn't.
How about you let him talk before trying to power a wagon on him.

what am i missing: what is gibus and poyzin? are you confusing games?

he's referring to another game I played - I referred to it earlier in this thread (it's the one that just finished where we lynched both scum on Day 1 and Day 2, and they were the two lurkiest players. Which is why I'm tending towards assuming lurkers are more likely to be scum (hence, gobbles).

So midway, with this in mind, do you reconsider your point about not scum reading lurkers?

[Freddiethelady]

his interaction with BM sucks

that's such a limp justification.

I disagree, he's pretty much right.

You disagree with me that it’s a limp justification? Or just that he doesn’t need to explain himself since “he sucks” is enough.

[Freddiethelady]

So if you're town, what you've actually done is put loads of heat on yourself, and to a lesser extent me, and allowed scum to completely free-ride. I

worry a bit about AGar

for instance because although he is seeming fine and playing well, there's no opportunity to put him under any real pressure and test him because the whole thread is dedicated to you defending your play and attacking me.

I echo these sentiments. Last night I was trying to articulate this, but I didn’t want to be rude, and I couldn’t find the words. I appreciate sleeper being so dedicated, especially as a newbie, but there isn’t any room for anyone to jump in. I think that’s dangerous because the lurkers (aside from gobbles, who is the king of lurking in this game) blend in with the people who are a little fatigued by the back and forth...there’s a lot of arguing being done that isn’t super constructive. So how do we re-engage everyone?

Starting with my favorite Land-narwhal: Hi, you! Come play, please!
Gobbles, who are you? I would like to hear from you!
Apogee, what do you think of the BM/sleeper interaction? In post 292 you had BM as town and Sleeper towards scum. Do you still hold that opinion about the two of them after the exchange?
General, where did you go?

I agree with BM here sleeper. It’s true we need a lynch and though I’m not voting for you, it does look pretty bleak for you. If you hard claim then we can refocus and try to have a productive first day. Also, I might have gotten this wrong but if you’re a power role, you don’t say that part...just say town or something like that. Don’t forget, scum know who town are, but not power roles, so claiming isn’t better for scum, but it helps town keep more townies alive.

[Freddiethelady]

Freddie, I love ya, but Sleeper claiming "town" but not his actual role isn't gonna help

If he's a power role he should claim so we dont lynch him haha

Oh jeeze. I hopeless

I thought just saying town was good since you don’t want to tell scum you have a power role. I’m going to find the answers but thats the impression I was under. Sorry!

[Freddiethelady]

That’s really sad! I don’t want to live without him

[Freddiethelady]

It's these kinds of statements that help me read people. I was already townie on freddie but now I am a little more.

Why?

Because I'm a soul reader, I make reads based on what I perceive someone's mindstate to be more than anything else.

That’s interesting if it was real life. Philosophy for mafia seems so wrong

Who wanted Votato dead? He was quiet this whole game — so much so I almost suspected him as scum. And I’m very close to him!

[Freddiethelady]

It's these kinds of statements that help me read people. I was already townie on freddie but now I am a little more.

Why?

Because I'm a soul reader, I make reads based on what I perceive someone's mindstate to be more than anything else.

That’s interesting if it was real life. Philosophy for mafia seems so wrong

Who wanted Votato dead? He was quiet this whole game — so much so I almost suspected him as scum. And I’m very close to him!

Well, for starters, you.

Why would you say that?

[Freddiethelady]

Ugh, I am SO sorry. I am prod-dodging at the moment, but I kind of have to. I mean to get to this within the next hour.

[Freddiethelady]

So I still haven’t caught up yet but somethings really bugging me about votato’s lynch. I’m probably incriminating myself a little by pointing this out but I don’t care. The lynch was so random And I need to work this out. First I want to point out the points behind my thought process... 1) he wasn’t really that active 2) not a lot of people were talking about him and 3) most people here know him. So why him? Why did scum NK him when there was seemingly little to gain from it? I looked back over his iOS and he voted two people: BM, sleeper, and Apogee. Votato must have been on to something. I needed to get that out there for Agar to help me work out...

[Freddiethelady]

I should explain my “incriminating myself” comment - he had a little spat so it looks bad. That’s why I said that.

[Freddiethelady]

Prodding Freddiethelady and gobbledygook.

not again. damn it.

[Freddiethelady]

I apologize for not interacting over the past few days - I tried reading through the posts in the wee hours of the morning but couldn't bear wasting my waning energy on reading through the exchanges between Sleeper and BM. I don't want to be rude so I will leave it there.

As for my absence, it appears scummy I know and bad for town. I made the mistake of getting super far behind in addition to having a bunch of stuff going on. I know my excuses won't really make a difference, so I won't bug any of you with the details, but I have a few real-life excuses. It won't happen again.

As a matter of curiosity, has GG been replaced? We've both been prodded twice and I don't see his responses...so now I am working on my analysis. I've read through but don't feel I've fully grasped a lot of the arguments.

[Freddiethelady]

@Freddie

What do you think of the fact that the wagon on you got to L-1 so easily? If you're town, who were the scumbags? If you're scum, am I right that GWu is your partner? Bussing your partner gets you townpoints, and makes my heart oh so warm.

TBH I don't know what to think. I forgot that the mod doesn't always keep the votes accurate and I wasn't counting. No one was really scum reading me enough before hand...is it possible there was a little panic? Either way, it went away as quickly as it started. as I can see now, its rebuilding due to my lack of posting. How would you read a quick build up like that?

So I still haven’t caught up yet but somethings really bugging me about votato’s lynch. I’m probably incriminating myself a little by pointing this out but I don’t care. The lynch was so random And I need to work this out. First I want to point out the points behind my thought process... 1) he wasn’t really that active 2) not a lot of people were talking about him and 3) most people here know him. So why him? Why did scum NK him when there was seemingly little to gain from it? I looked back over his iOS and he voted two people: BM, sleeper, and Apogee. Votato must have been on to something. I needed to get that out there for Agar to help me work out...

Yeah I'm not going to get into NK analysis and all the fucking shit that comes with that just to project a wagon onto someone else. #sorrynotsorry

Can you tell me why not? If everyone was surprised by the kill, then why don't we dive into it? is it a mafia nuance I haven't learned yet? He might have been on to something...I can't figure out why you're super uptight about that unless there is something you're hiding.

Alternatively, @BM help me out here...didn't you say that Agar claimed mason way too quickly in post 722? Have you thought anymore about that? Is that a move that would benefit scum if scum!agar pulled it off? it doesn't seem like anyone has had heat on him since he claimed mason. the reasoning for that would be based off a false premise. I acknowledge this might by one serious stretch but is it worth investigating?

I messed up this quote but below is from Agar 1059

GWU needs to die because GWU is scum. Freddie going to ground looks sketch as hell.

I fucking hate that the two players I most read as town are the two players who have sucked the joy out of this game entirely.

I got it, I am sorry.

On the other hand, I definitely don't want to sound like I am sheeping Agar here, but his read on the General seems to make a lot of sense (even if he is scum lying that he's mason)... I won't vote yet because I haven't finished reading Generals iso and also have my eye on Apogee. He talks a lot, and I don't have the evidence compiled yet but hes sus to me because his talking doesn't get us very far.

[Freddiethelady]

fk it VOTE: Apogee

I'll go with my heart, and screw everyone else.

talk to me about this!

it doesn't take a lot of reading to see that apogee has had very little to say throughout the game and has kept an extremely low profile. i need to get to the bottom of the votato death. apogee didn't really scum read votato, but he knew his play-style well enough to call him out on how little he was contributing (see 647) and to wisely conclude that votato was going to be trouble for him, especially since votato calls him out as not the same kind of player as town!apogee of past games. no one else was really paying attention. that night, votato is dies, may he rest in peace. (i have a feeling im going to get a tongue lashing from agar for whatever reason he doesn't want to analyse this) votato was on to something...scum have to use their night kills strategically. if he suspected apogee (which he did) and he was correct, then apogee might have panicked knowing the kind of player votato is, or what he might become once this game gained momentum. furthermore, apogee has been speaking about 'feeling good about/being okay with hammaring' (951, 970, 1028) or 'buy a wagon' (753). some of these are on the same day, hours apart.

getting to the bottom of who thought votato would be the best 1st NK is going to help me solve all my reads. i need something to orbit around and this is where ill start. in the meantime, i am almost certain that a VOTE: apogee is a step towards a town victory.

[Freddiethelady]

UNVOTE:

I'll wait until the replacement arrives

why would you back down? there were only two votes on apogee...is he someone special to you?

[Freddiethelady]

fk it VOTE: Apogee

I'll go with my heart, and screw everyone else.

talk to me about this!

it doesn't take a lot of reading to see that apogee has had very little to say throughout the game and has kept an extremely low profile. i need to get to the bottom of the votato death. apogee didn't really scum read votato, but he knew his play-style well enough to call him out on how little he was contributing (see 647) and to wisely conclude that votato was going to be trouble for him, especially since votato calls him out as not the same kind of player as town!apogee of past games. no one else was really paying attention. that night, votato is dies, may he rest in peace. (i have a feeling im going to get a tongue lashing from agar for whatever reason he doesn't want to analyse this) votato was on to something...scum have to use their night kills strategically. if he suspected apogee (which he did) and he was correct, then apogee might have panicked knowing the kind of player votato is, or what he might become once this game gained momentum. furthermore, apogee has been speaking about 'feeling good about/being okay with hammaring' (951, 970, 1028) or 'buy a wagon' (753). some of these are on the same day, hours apart.

getting to the bottom of who thought votato would be the best 1st NK is going to help me solve all my reads. i need something to orbit around and this is where ill start. in the meantime, i am almost certain that a VOTE: apogee is a step towards a town victory.

Call it an OMGUS if you want, but the last three Freddie posts are all terribly scummy imo, and I’ve called it before you voted on me.

This leaps of opportunism and is kind of dishonest in multiple regards

I was asked to hammer that’s why I was comfortable with it

Yeah I haven’t done much this game

I’m willing to bet a lot on the scumteam being within you/generalwu/gg

If you want to NKA, the sus on you from votato combined with the familiarity makes you a prime target.

VOTE: Freddiethelady

Freddie what are your thoughts on GeneralWu?

talk to me more about the dishonest part, please. you've peaked my interest!

[Freddiethelady]

UNVOTE:

I'll wait until the replacement arrives

why would you back down? there were only two votes on apogee...is he someone special to you?

More complete posting tonight but just want to throw out that this is bad and what BM did is pretty common courtesy for a replacement.

what is bad? that i asked? i am a big fan of courtesy, thanks for pointing that out UNVOTE: apogee for the sake of the replacement then! thanks for pointing that out.

[Freddiethelady]

UNVOTE:

I'll wait until the replacement arrives

why would you back down? there were only two votes on apogee...is he someone special to you?

More complete posting tonight but just want to throw out that this is bad and what BM did is pretty common courtesy for a replacement.

I don't care too much for courtesy. It just buys me some more thinking time. And I agree Freddie's post is unnecessarily tetchy here.

The thing that bugs me mate, is the stagnant GWu wagon. It had 3 townies on it for ages, with only 4 to lynch.

Apogee promised to hammer, but stalled for ages.
Freddie said he would like to hammer, but didn't.

What does this mean?

Unless scumteam is GeneralWu - Gobbledygook, scum have basically forfeited a surefire win with Sleepersoul still in the game.

Need to give some thought to likely combinations here.

What is tetchy?

Also where did I say I would hammer? Did you misunderstand 921? I said I’d get to “this” as in the exchanges and the interaction...nothing about hammers!

[Freddiethelady]

TBH I don't know what to think. I forgot that the mod doesn't always keep the votes accurate and I wasn't counting. No one was really scum reading me enough before hand...is it possible there was a little panic? Either way, it went away as quickly as it started. as I can see now, its rebuilding due to my lack of posting. How would you read a quick build up like that?

You could see who would gain what from it.

So I still haven’t caught up yet but somethings really bugging me about votato’s lynch. I’m probably incriminating myself a little by pointing this out but I don’t care. The lynch was so random And I need to work this out. First I want to point out the points behind my thought process... 1) he wasn’t really that active 2) not a lot of people were talking about him and 3) most people here know him. So why him? Why did scum NK him when there was seemingly little to gain from it? I looked back over his iOS and he voted two people: BM, sleeper, and Apogee. Votato must have been on to something. I needed to get that out there for Agar to help me work out...

Yeah I'm not going to get into NK analysis and all the fucking shit that comes with that just to project a wagon onto someone else. #sorrynotsorry

Can you tell me why not? If everyone was surprised by the kill, then why don't we dive into it? is it a mafia nuance I haven't learned yet? He might have been on to something...I can't figure out why you're super uptight about that unless there is something you're hiding.

NK analysis is generally WIFOM-y to begin with. I've already stated that I think Vot just got picked off as a mason. BM fake soft-claimed PR at the end of D1, why didn't they kill him? Well if BM is scum, he fucked his own soft-claim and for what? To eliminate... town leader votato? I don't know about y'all but I didn't see votato as some unlynchable paragon yesterday - people were questioning my town read of him because they found him suspicious. Meanwhile, vot was adamant that if he died N1, you were scum. I also don't 100% buy that but your desire to dive into the topic shades me further towards a scumread.

Alternatively, @BM help me out here...didn't you say that Agar claimed mason way too quickly in post 722? Have you thought anymore about that? Is that a move that would benefit scum if scum!agar pulled it off? it doesn't seem like anyone has had heat on him since he claimed mason. the reasoning for that would be based off a false premise. I acknowledge this might by one serious stretch but is it worth investigating?

If I was fake-claiming, the real other mason would have countered me by now. This theory requires two very improbable things.

• The "real" other mason has spent all day not counter-claiming me and letting me parade around as confirmed town. Why? What benefit is there to that?
  
• Votato, being a mason with someone else, copied my crumb to a T, even though we weren't masons together. I made my post before his.

---

1074 Well you're sure not helping your cause.

{Freddie/Apogee} is an unlikely pairing.

The thing that bugs me mate, is the stagnant GWu wagon. It had 3 townies on it for ages, with only 4 to lynch.

This is why I'm very confident in my GWu read. No way GWu town would have gotten this far into today. Someone would have hammered if he was town. It was all but greenlit at that point.

Why, or rather how, would BM have fucked his own soft-claim? Are you saying that a soft-claim that’s a lie would be incriminating if people found out (ie a counter claim?)? The dynamics of this are a little confusing to me. Also, how do you figure apogee and I would be an unlikely pair? I’ve been coupled in a likely scum pair with general. How is that more likely?

Do you not buy Votato’s claim that if he dies it’s indicative of scum!freddie? Or that you didn’t buy that a Votato NK on d1 meant I should be blamed automatically? And even so, wouldn’t it be easy for scum to take advantage of that? Scum’s NK blamed on the wrong person seems like a gift to scum. I suppose I was wrong to assume that there was something untouchable about Votato. I also see your point about the preposterous thoughts on you fake claiming Mason.

When you make your arguments about the General, I agree and find your analysis make perfect sense but I might not have drawn that conclusion organically because I’m slow at picking up some of the less obvious subtleties. TBH I’m worried about looking like I’m sleeping you because I know that makes me look bad! So SE’s how does one agree with another player without being accused of sheeping? I’m unsure of how to proceed.

Additionally, you didn’t address my agreements about scum!apogee. Am I so far off that it doesn’t warrant a response at all?

[Freddiethelady]

fk it VOTE: Apogee

I'll go with my heart, and screw everyone else.

One more point Agar, what do you think of this?

[Freddiethelady]

fk it VOTE: Apogee

I'll go with my heart, and screw everyone else.

One more point Agar, what do you think of this?

Ugh. I meant to say “question” not “point”

[Freddiethelady]

Why, or rather how, would BM have fucked his own soft-claim? Are you saying that a soft-claim that’s a lie would be incriminating if people found out (ie a counter claim?)? The dynamics of this are a little confusing to me. Also, how do you figure apogee and I would be an unlikely pair? I’ve been coupled in a likely scum pair with general. How is that more likely?

Because the setups are outlined in the first couple of posts and once a mason flipped that eliminated any other PR.

GWu/You is more likely than Apogee/You because if it was Apogee/You, one of you would have hammered GWu.

Do you not buy Votato’s claim that if he dies it’s indicative of scum!freddie? Or that you didn’t buy that a Votato NK on d1 meant I should be blamed automatically? And even so, wouldn’t it be easy for scum to take advantage of that? Scum’s NK blamed on the wrong person seems like a gift to scum. I suppose I was wrong to assume that there was something untouchable about Votato. I also see your point about the preposterous thoughts on you fake claiming Mason.

I'm gonna level with you - I don't buy anyone's NK wifom bullshit.

Additionally, you didn’t address my agreements about scum!apogee. Am I so far off that it doesn’t warrant a response at all?

No, it didn't. I'm more focused on other players. Like you and GWu.

Humm I missed the part about one mason flip means eliminating PRs. I will vote home now as soon as a replacement comes in if that helps...also, any word from Gobbles? How come he hasn’t replaced?

[Freddiethelady]

The idea that Freddie and Gobble couldn’t be a pair is bunk.

This game has been the perfect petri dish for scum to active lurk like motherfuckers because there’s enough lurking that town is entirely engaged in it as well.

I haven't been lurking the whole game, I am not lurking now, and I only 'lurked' for a little while. Yet you've paired me with a player who has done, quite literally, nothing since the beginning of the game. How does that equate?

[Freddiethelady]

The idea that Freddie and Gobble couldn’t be a pair is bunk.

This game has been the perfect petri dish for scum to active lurk like motherfuckers because there’s enough lurking that town is entirely engaged in it as well.

I haven't been lurking the whole game, I am not lurking now, and I only 'lurked' for a little while. Yet you've paired me with a player who has done, quite literally, nothing since the beginning of the game. How does that equate?

This really isn't an avenue you want me to venture down...

I can't tell if this is a warning, challenge or a threat. Either way, I digress. I am not going to push the issue and take it as a warning. I think this is what BM was warning me about at the beginning of the game.

[Freddiethelady]

JamSV replaces SleeperSoul.
Searching for a replacement for gobbledygook.

Votecount 2.08

GeneralWu (2) -

AGar, JamSV

Freddiethelady (2) -

gobbledygook, Apogee

JamSV (1) -

GeneralWu

Not Voting (2) -

Battle Mage, Freddiethelady

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to Eliminate.

The deadline for Day 2 is paused at 2 days until all slots are filled.

@BM

Anything in particular stand out to you about this vote count?

My first thought was Sleepers replacement also wants to lynch GWu - the weight of town opinion is very much in favour of that way.

Or are you referring to the "Eliminate" bit? That's just new site policy.

I won't hold out any longer VOTE: GeneralWu - dealer's choice!

Nah, I know about the new site policy.

My focus was on the positioning of GWu and Freddie's votes not being on each other, and instead on Jam and not voting, respectively. That late in D2, makes me feel very comfortable with a flip on either. Very confident.

he's not my scumbuddy.

VOTE: GeneralWu

[Freddiethelady]

you don't think freddie-scum, who has been stuck with a complete lurker SE for a partner, would be keen to get someone new and active in that slot?

I'm not sure i follow the rest of your post. I think it's odd that Freddie did lurk as much as she did on Day 2. Day 1 looked good, and then she just didnt seem to care anymore. Could it be because she saw GG doing it and getting away with it, and thought "this is the way to do it"? I think that's possible.

not being active is bad for town, I totally get that. but the BM/sleeper interactions were so annoying that I didn't insert myself when I had the time. Would it be helpful to have my real life explanation for why I wasn't active? Votato can confirm my story when the game is over - I won't be lurking anymore.

[Freddiethelady]

Freddie just hammered.

There were only 4. My bad GWu is at L-2

[Freddiethelady]

Pressure has been applied to both Freddie and GWu today. Neither has responded in a town manner. Both had lackluster D1 presences for different reasons. Can we just lynch one of them already? We've discussed this shit to the death.

Pressure has been applied to both Freddie and GWu today. Neither has responded in a town manner. Both had lackluster D1 presences for different reasons. Can we just lynch one of them already? We've discussed this shit to the death.

Freddie's D1 was perfectly fine. The loss of Votato has obviously hit him hard on D2. Remorse?

I don’t have any remorse. I feel like I’m going down the path of self-destruction Like I did in the last game (where I was being accused of being scummy and I didn’t know how to dig my way out of that - and I was town there too).

[Freddiethelady]

Let’s get it.

Game is probably straightforward

VOTE: Freddiethelady

Last minute attempt there with the hammer won’t buy you credit after you jumped on the first opportunity to form a GeneralWu counterwagon you could.

Be careful of Hammer of course

You are all of a sudden being active and definitive about something - cool! You haven’t engaged with me until I said something to you. Explain your read on me...minus all the fluff you tried to say yesterday in response to my suspicions of you. Additionally, you didn’t really provide counter evidence. I think you’ve been just active enough to not be Accused of lurking but havent contributed any substance or engaged in scum hunting, except when you were agreeinf with Agar.

Also, are you accusing me of jumping off a GWu counterwagon too fast? In other words, my last minute attempt to counterwagon you won’t give me credit (Or fuel for re-engaging a apogee wagon) when I left it to vote general? The problem is, i am leaning scum!apogee because of your baseless and opportunistic shading but you’ve barely said anything substantial this game that I can chew on except that I still say scum!apogee would want Votato dead because he was a threat to your cover. Agar was an obvious choice because he is one of the superior players. You and the general have been marginally active and helpful. Gobbles hasnt reappear for his proddodge today.

BM, I’m very interested in hearing your thoughts about the Agar NK and about Apogee’s vote on me.

[Freddiethelady]

course


You are all of a sudden being active and definitive about something - cool! You haven’t engaged with me until I said something to you. Explain your read on me...minus all the fluff you tried to say yesterday in response to my suspicions of you. Additionally, you didn’t really provide counter evidence. I think you’ve been just active enough to not be Accused of lurking but havent contributed any substance or engaged in scum hunting, except when you were agreeinf with Agar.

Your case on me yesterday was is not super active and didn’t hammer before sleeper unvoted.
I responded to it.
You have massive partner equity with GeneralWu

May I ask what partner equity means? I'm pretty confident Freddy is the partner, but I'd like to see other people weigh in before I vote / hammer. I do have intent to hammer at the moment though.

I think that he is insinuating that I have demonstrated through The quotes above that I have an interest in seeing the general stay alive. To which I would ask, and encourage you to think about also, why would I hammer my alleged scumbuddy? Apogee only attacked me when I brought him up. Then he gave a thin argument by posting a few quotes. How is there no questioning of his motives, or lurking? I’m not the only person who wasn’t participating for a few days. You’ve labeled me LAMISS and now I’m not sure how to ask questions or shed light on my motives without that hanging over my head...I’d like to see more evidence of why you’re scum reading me this hard.

In conclusion, If I hadn’t voted, I would have been incriminated. When I did vote, I was condemned. I knew this would happen yet I also knew if GWu flipped scum it would be best for town, so I decided to vote and here we are.

Don’t you need other people here voting me to hammer?

[Freddiethelady]

VOTE: Freddiethelady

Any reason? Or are you just throwing darts at the wall?

[Freddiethelady]

By the way Freddie, do you not think Apogee unvoting looks really sketchy? He made it out like he was very very certain after all

In D2 we spoke about the courtesy around unvoting while people are on V/LA or there are replacements on the way. So it could be that apogee is trying to be considerate or he’s getting cold feet since there wasn’t a lot of momentum drummed up after his condemning posts. Maybe Apogee should explain himself

[Freddiethelady]

VOTE: Freddiethelady

Any reason? Or are you just throwing darts at the wall?

Throwing at a board ideally. I don't want to leave holes in the wall.

At least there is a board! Means it isn’t just random...please tell me more!

[Freddiethelady]

VOTE: Freddiethelady

Any reason? Or are you just throwing darts at the wall?

Throwing at a board ideally. I don't want to leave holes in the wall.

That’s very sensible of you

[Freddiethelady]

i dont care massively about the NK spec, as I think most scum just kill AGar here. However, in the spirit of helping the newbies, I'd advise that it could be perfectly reasonable NOT to kill AGar, if for instance his reads were off and he could help drive a mislynch or 2 as town leader. In this game, I could have seen an argument for NKing me, given I'm basically unanimously town-read, and annoying as hell, and scum need 2 mislynches from a narrow pool with me alive. But there's lots of variables to consider. The main message is - always think carefully about your night actions.

But town doesn’t have night action...so what do you mean?

[Freddiethelady]

At the end of D2 a lot of freddies posts were about survival or doing things that look towny which you can see two exampples of in the spoiler

Spoiler:

UNVOTE:

I'll wait until the replacement arrives

why would you back down? there were only two votes on apogee...is he someone special to you?

More complete posting tonight but just want to throw out that this is bad and what BM did is pretty common courtesy for a replacement.

what is bad? that i asked? i am a big fan of courtesy, thanks for pointing that out UNVOTE: apogee for the sake of the replacement then! thanks for pointing that out.

JamSV replaces SleeperSoul.
Searching for a replacement for gobbledygook.

Votecount 2.08

GeneralWu (2) -

AGar, JamSV

Freddiethelady (2) -

gobbledygook, Apogee

JamSV (1) -

GeneralWu

Not Voting (2) -

Battle Mage, Freddiethelady

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to Eliminate.

The deadline for Day 2 is paused at 2 days until all slots are filled.

@BM

Anything in particular stand out to you about this vote count?

My first thought was Sleepers replacement also wants to lynch GWu - the weight of town opinion is very much in favour of that way.

Or are you referring to the "Eliminate" bit? That's just new site policy.

I won't hold out any longer VOTE: GeneralWu - dealer's choice!

Nah, I know about the new site policy.

My focus was on the positioning of GWu and Freddie's votes not being on each other, and instead on Jam and not voting, respectively. That late in D2, makes me feel very comfortable with a flip on either. Very confident.

he's not my scumbuddy.

VOTE: GeneralWu

you've explained exactly nothing in this post. can you elaborate?

[Freddiethelady]

wow D2 was quite the day. It really comes down to Apogee/Freddie as the last scum.

I saw Sleeper as a good person at heart and I don't see him being capable of leaving his scum buddy alone. He was not just saying that he was okay with getting lynched he was begging for it. The only reason why I could think that he would do that is if his partner was BM and he was trying to distance, but there would have been no reason to do that and General was the mafia.

BM provided walls of evidence to incriminate General which if they were partners he would not have done that because it would have been so much easier to go for the lurkers like gobble and freddie.

But sounds like people all ready think the same or something similar.

Now on to the scumhunting...

help me sort out your reads...

So you're saying that you confirm town!jam because of a sense his predecessor gave you, ruling out entirely that sleeper could have been a nervous scum who made it impossible to read him because he was soooo over the top? I am more inclined to believe the former, myself, but I wanted to ask.

Also, didn't you replace gobbles? so you're calling your predecessor a lurker and have done very little to dissuade his reputation. How come we can't confirmed scum!dsjstr based on you and gobbles lurking alone, when there is a general consensus (see bolded/underlined above) that I'm scum since I lurked for a little more than 48 hours in real life? We've got nothing on you or gobbles that helped sort out your slot. Then to say nothing of apogee who is also a lurker -- talk to me more about what you think of him and his trigger happy vote/unvote on me, please.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Between dsjstr/gobbles and apogee, there is a whole host of scummy behavior but I am more confident that apogee is scum number two in the scum pair here basing my assumptions off the fact that I think it is likely that gobbles wasn't actually paying attention to this game at all. He would have had to have been actually lurking and chatting with the general but I bet (and this is purely a guess) he was genuinely busy irl and wasn't interested in salvaging his reputation in this game - on the other hand, he was active in other games, which casts doubt on my gut readings about gobbles and his slot. So hummm. As for his replacement, I've got nothing. I am trying to draw him out here because I need more from him. I'm waiting with baited breathe!

On the other hand there is apogee who has been sort of participating until I started asking him questions. Now he is constantly pointing the finger at me saying freddie doesn't scum hunt, freddie is lurking, and freddie can't be town but offers no evidence as proof. Looking over his ios he is non-committal with no substance or original thought whatsoever and generally agreeable with whom ever was making strong points in favor of attention being away from him. Maybe I am too new to see other subtleties of the better players and apogee isn't scum but right now I am super-dooper positive that apogee is scum - so unless dsjstr gives me some reason to change my vote....VOTE: apogee

[Freddiethelady]

Can you prove it’s not you?? I’m 99% sure I know who it is too. Give me a post to prove your innocence

[Freddiethelady]

At this point, I just want Freddie to lose, lurkers ruin games. VOTE: Freddie

But why didn’t you want gobbles/dsjstr to lose because they were WAY lurkier than i was...but leaps and bounds more lurkier than I was...

[Freddiethelady]

you were sorta scummy

Was I?? Sorry. I was trying!!! Every post I thought to myself “how could this be perceived” and maybe I got lazy sometimes but I was sure I was much better this game.

[Freddiethelady]

Y'all should join the cult game wu is hosting! BM is in it already. It's 9 players, so it shouldn't be too overwhelming

They banned Votato forever over his political views. I gotta re-evaluate my desire to play here. Wtf why isn’t there freedom of speech here too??

[Freddiethelady]

yeah, you were a lot better for sure. I think you played pretty well D1, but then real life made you more inactive D2. And since GWu was being pressured, people might have felt that your absence was a convenient one. Well nothing you can do about it.

Irl I have 4 kids, work full time, and am virtually a single mom — I got the kids a puppy the few days I was “lurking” and in hindsight I should have done V/LA but I completely forgot about that option. Sorry!!

[Freddiethelady]

Good game all

Still irritated I couldn’t townclear myself and that I got lolhammered (separately) but I just had a hard time getting stuck in early on and then a couple of things just dragged on in the thread

Couple lessons to take away from this one but I’m sure I’ll play with some of you all again and look forward to it!

I forgot to account for the fact that less players meant less to hammer. I’m so sorry!!

[Freddiethelady]

oh well. The wording of the ban made it seem not political but that he was just being bad.

Also, can I get speakeasy/gtkas access? I have submitted the request for more than a week.

The official word was sexual assault but it was preposterous!! It does the wording of sexual assault a tremendous disservice by making outlandish claims like that!!

[Freddiethelady]

what did he say? I do not have access to whatever he wrote.

It’s locked now so no one can see (conveniently because it was a limp argument at best on the part of the administration!)

He was discussing economics. Sometimes economists get accused of being heartless but I assure you, we’re the most interested party in seeing human development.

[Freddiethelady]

Also, this thread is for discussing newbie 2011. Please take conversation of the merit of votato being banned to PM's or a more appropriate thread.

Will do!

[Freddiethelady]

very post I thought to myself “how could this be perceived”

Just turn that thought off.

Why??