TM2021 | Anime Destroys Untrod Tripod | Endgame

[NorwegianboyEE]

for what it's worth, I have reason to believe zoraster's claim is real, even if they are scum.

This pings me strongly as Town, and that makes me breathe a huge sigh of relief. I was really worried there weren't any adults in the room.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Look, bottom line here is this: you keep trying to say X or Y doesn’t prove my claim is true, but that’s almost never the objective.

You haven’t proven it’s false, and I’ve provided tons of evidence to demonstrate it plausible and even likely.

You can’t rationally keep pushing your attempt to prove a negative.

This is a weak burden of proof point.
We have made arguments that do point to scum!pine fakeclaiming.
Obviously hard proof is impossible outside of flips because we are playing mafia.
That is not a reason to stop arguing altogether.

[NorwegianboyEE]

DEB’s flip mechanically demands a strong protective role.

That’s me.

Does a godfather flip demand a cop? Or Ninja a tracker?

[NorwegianboyEE]

That’s wildly not the point.

It is exactly the point.
You are saying that a role being on the scumteam must mean that town needs a counterpart, but we are explaining how that is not the case.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Jailkeeper would also be an incongruous role on the scumteam, as you say, but we do not believe that is your role.
We do believe it is likely you roleblocked FL on N1 in a town!FL world.
That doesn't necessarily mean you have more than one shot of a roleblock related thing.

[NorwegianboyEE]

The reason the incongruousness means Pine is scum is because scum might fakeclaim here but town would not.

[NorwegianboyEE]

If your role is X-shot blocker something then it's a claim that will look bad for you if claimed it truthfully, but if you spice it up by framing it as a full jailkeeper then you will look better and can even claim your actual shot by framing it as a protection.
Point is that Jailkeeper does not fit in with this setup's theme as we've repeatedly pointed out.
If you believe it does then we ask you to reference some games where there is a single ungated role in a game full of one-shots if mods do it all the time as you claim.
Especially considering when the previous game in this series was literally all X-shot.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Consider these points.

>Previous game with this theme flavour was all X-Shot.
>All previous roles flipped in this game so far are hard confirmed to be only X-Shot.
>BBMolla and Flavour crumb PR. BBMolla dies and Pine conveniently targeted FL on the same night with what FL can only hard confirm as a blocking action, but Pine also says it's protective.
>Pine claims to have targeted Iconeum N2 but Iconeum dies anyway. Explains it as DEB using his 1-shot strongman on that night. Circumstances are incredible.

[NorwegianboyEE]

There's lots of room for speculation but Pine is probably an x-shot blocker for the scum team or some kind of scum JOAT. Absolutely not a full town jailkeeper out of the blue that will break the setup.

[NorwegianboyEE]

The claim that DEB uses his 1-shot strongman on Iconeum when we've consistently pointed out that there is no PR crumbs in his ISO and no reason at all for the scum team to waste their strongman shot at that point is just one of the many holes in Pine's narrative.

[NorwegianboyEE]

And to top it all of, Pine's entire case on me is OMGUS. He votes me because i suspect him. Meanwhile we've explained how unbelievable Pine's story is and if i was in his position i would not find it conclusive of scum pushing me that some town would suspect my claim. But yet Pine refuses to consider a world where i am town rather than scum that risks everything to eliminate some town PR.

It is SUPER important for scum to elim me today, because if we elim scum today, I can start hard-clearing Townies or guiltying the last bad guy.

It is not super important for scum to eliminate you, that is a false narrative you've created to cause suspicion on the people that push you for your suspicious claim.

[NorwegianboyEE]

They botch a fakeclaim because Jingle wasn't paying that much attention to a scumgame and Pine had already decided to claim jailkeeper. That's likely it.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Pine's discrediting technique falls in line with what he's done for most of the game. Respond to legit arguments with accusations of the importance of their role to discredit any push on him. Rather than looking at the content in question and seeing it for what it is. Pine is not solving but just interested in staying alive because he is scum.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Yeah I’m completely done engaging with you.

I’ll be back when something new is said.

That is fine, i believe my case is quite solid and this should be enough evidence to have you eliminated and then flip red.
Strictly speaking, i think it is more important for you to come up with an actually good reason for why my push is in bad faith and why i am scum pushing you.

[NorwegianboyEE]

My only real problem is the wagon speed.
Misty might not vote until deadline, which is slowing down the speed of the game a lot and for no real gain to town.
I feel our case is solid but this gives room for Pine and Ramcius to discredit our push by sheer force rather than just ending it quickly and decisively as is my always preferred choice of action.
It becomes an endurance game as we see now where both sides constantly duke it out but with neither gaining the upper hand.

[NorwegianboyEE]

There was an ungated doc last time.

No there wasn't.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Wasn't the wrong belief that previous setup had ungated doc already debunked multiple times by now?

[NorwegianboyEE]

I say again, if it's what it takes to convince y'all the JK claim is fake just vote me, have me flip town. And then kill Pine when they no longer can excuse themselves by "Norwegian is just scum making a good case" anymore. It will also prove TSQ is town because he can not be allied with any of FL/Ramcius/Pine. Proving both scum are in fact, in that group.
Or just vote Pine now and end this charade.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Do y'all want a optimal scumflip and then eliminate both Pine/FL until both scum dead or the suboptimal have me flip town to prove TSQ is town and Pine scum, and then 50/50 you lose/win when trying to find his teammate in Ramcius/FL.
That's the choice today. Nothing else.

[NorwegianboyEE]

But there was an ungated doc in the previous setup

, so I don’t know how you’re so certain on this?

No there wasn't.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Welcome, Klick! You are 星空 みゆき (Miyuki Hoshizora), a

MafiaScum Anime Avatar Resistance Fighters (MAARF)

member.

Your Abilities

• MAARF Tactical Response Unit
  : During the day phase, you may use this unit to vote to lynch one player.
  
• R

  a

  i

  n

  b

  o

  w

  H

  e

  a

  l

  i

  n

  g

  !
  : During the night, you may activate your ability and target one player. If successful, this player will be protected from one night kill.
  You may do this twice during the game.

Your Win Condition

• Make MafiaScum Safe Again
  : You win when all threats to MAARF have been eliminated and there is at least one MAARF member alive.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Literally a gated doc.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Do y'all want a optimal scumflip and then eliminate both FL/Ramcius until both scum dead or the suboptimal have me flip town to prove TSQ is town and Pine scum, and then 50/50 you lose/win when trying to find his teammate in Ramcius/FL.
That's the choice today. Nothing else.

*Fixed

[NorwegianboyEE]

I think it's more likely Pine's teammate is Ramcius because with a townflip on TSQ they can probably still somehow find an way to argue that i'm scum, but with me flipping town it makes it harder to incriminate TSQ since their only point for scum!TSQ is that he makes sense as my teammate is and "null" and a "consensul elimination".

[NorwegianboyEE]

DEB’s flip mechanically demands a strong protective role.

That’s me.

Does a godfather flip demand a cop? Or Ninja a tracker?

Usually yes, if you have a mod who is reasonably adept at setup balance. Would you design a game with a miller and have no loyal/disloyal roles or AC in it? Of course you could but that wouldn’t make a whole lot of sense.

Having a strongman still makes sense for scum if we consider FL's claim to be real. With Pine it gives too much town power and as has been said, it does not dit with the setup.

[NorwegianboyEE]

We have 3 doctor type roles in this game. and 1-shot strongman. Give this a thought Nancy, it clearly does not fit and if a claim is fake then Pine's is the odd man out here.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Consider these points.

>Previous game with this theme flavour was all X-Shot.
>All previous roles flipped in this game so far are hard confirmed to be only X-Shot.
>BBMolla and Flavour crumb PR. BBMolla dies and Pine conveniently targeted FL on the same night with what FL can only hard confirm as a blocking action, but Pine also says it's protective.
>Pine claims to have targeted Iconeum N2 but Iconeum dies anyway. Explains it as DEB using his 1-shot strongman on that night. Circumstances are incredible.

No, have you not been reading my posts? Last game had an ungated doc in it. Why do you keep ignoring this?

I'm not ignoring your posts?? I'm literally responding to you and telling you there is no ungated doctor in the previous game.

[NorwegianboyEE]

There was an ungated doc last time.

No there wasn't.

Yes, there was an ungated town role that could make a player bp for the night. I can literally quote it for you.

Are you referring to this?

Welcome, hitogoroshi! You are 不破 真広 (Mahiro Fuwa), a MafiaScum Anime Avatar Resistance Fighters (MAARF) member.

Your Abilities
MAARF Tactical Response Unit: During the day phase, you may use this unit to vote to lynch one player.
Talismans: During the night, you must target one player and choose one of the following talismans to grant your target:
Bulletproof: If successful, your targeted player will become immune to one night kill the following night phase. This talisman wears off once successfully targeted with a killing action or the following night phase ends, and will not work in MyLo or LyLo.
Loved: If successful, your targeted player will require one extra vote to be lynched. This talisman will last until the end of the following day phase, and will not work in MyLo or LyLo.
Hated: If successful, your targeted player will require one less vote to be lynched. This talisman will last until the end of the following day phase, and will not work in MyLo or LyLo.

It's somewhat reasonable for you to assume that was ungated because you weren't in the game, but in practice it was clarified that each talisman could only be handed out once. JJH told me this and he was in the game.

[NorwegianboyEE]

We have 3 doctor type roles in this game. and 1-shot strongman. Give this a thought Nancy, it clearly does not fit and if a claim is fake then Pine's is the odd man out here.

3? Molla, FL. Where’s the 3rd?

Pine's supposed jailkeeper claim.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Once to a different player or only once in that game?

Once in that game.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Hitogoroshi’s role was like a JOAT with 3 1-shot abilities. It was not described perfectly well in their role pm but if you read the game you will find out that is how their role worked. To say he was ungated but chose to not act on N4 and N5 is pretty clearly an falsification.
The reason Pine argues so hard for this is because he genuinely knows his claim is fake and he needs to prove it’s not a made up claim.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Action resolution sheet for reference.

Event/Action Summary

Day 1

Reundo

- (

DAAC Member; Domokun

) - lynched Day 1

Night 1

Chemist1422

- Watches Menalque - No one targeted Menalque.

mastina

- Neighborizes Menalque - failed due to Loyal modifier.

Klick

- Protects noone - success, Klick is lazy.

jjh927

- Aliens Klick - success, Klick is aliened.

hitogoroshi

- Gifts Bulletproof talisman to mastina - success

Kerset

- Activates Ninja, kills jjh927 - success, jjh927 (

MAARF Member; Untrod Tripod

) is killed

Day 2

Menalque

- (

DAAC Member; Hakuryū Ren

) - lynched Day 2

Night 2

Chemist1422

- Tracks Kerset - No result due to Kerset ascetic ability

Klick

- Protects mastina - Success, mastina is protected from one kill

mastina

- Bulletproof due to Talisman

ofrhz

- Targets Alisae - success, Alisae is killed

hitogoroshi

- Gifts Hated talisman to Bitmap - success

Kerset

- Activates Ascetic ability and kills Alisae - success & success, rendered untargetable and Alisae is super killed

Day 3

Bitmap

- (

MAARF Member; Princess of the Crystal

) - lynched Day 3

Night 3

Chemist1422

- Follows Klick - success

hitogoroshi

- Gifts Loved talisman to Kerset - success

Klick

- Protects Chemist1422 - success

Kerset

- Watches Chemist and Kills mastina - success Klick targeted Chemist and mastina dies

Day 4

ofrhz

- (

MAARF Member; Mami Tomoe

) - lynched Day 4

Night 4

Kerset

- Kills Klick - success Klick dies

Day 5

Shadoweh

- (

MAARF Member; Ahiru Arima

) - lynched Day 5

Night 5

Kerset

- Kills hitogoroshi - success hitogoroshi dies

All players request a fast night

Day 6

Kerset

- (

DAAC Member - Natsu Dragneel

) - lynched Day 6

Hitogoroshi uses 1 shot of each ability on N1/N2/N3. Does not use any shot on N4/N5 because his role is gated and he ran empty.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I say again that all previous roles in TM20 was gated. All flipped and claimed roles in this game except for Pine’s full on Jailkeeper claim is gated.
Jailkeeper is the odd man out, Pine lied. And therefore he is scum.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Not only did he lie, but he is not town lying but specifically scum lying. This is because he is arguing that me trying to eliminate him is because i’m scum afraid of his role, but i think it’s pretty obvious his role is a complete lie. So even if i was scum here it doesn’t change the fact that his role is fake. And if he was town that knew he lied about his role then he would rather just admit it instead of doubling down in this way to get me mislimmed when i genuinely caught him out on this.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Norwegian's just scum essentially giving his life to get rid of the JK.

You’re being a bit of a clown. I hope you’ll reflect on it.

[NorwegianboyEE]

But idk, people don’t wanna listen to me even though even Norwegian sees that I’m obv town at this point

Vote Pine then. They are clearly scum.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Last year I slip as mafia, the one before that like 3-4 years ago, I get worlds most terrible rand as scum in the Large Theme and still nearly go all the way solo, this year I solve as town early and get misfaded

I must have some type of Team Mafia curse

If Pine flips scum i'd vote Ramcius first and if he flips scum we can all go home happy and you don't even get misfaded.

[NorwegianboyEE]

JJH wants you to stop trying to artificially make yourself the centre of the game by pretending you'd get misfaded when you actually already are the centre of the game because you're wedged inbetween scum!Pine and scum!ram.

[NorwegianboyEE]

JJ has created an informative meme to help FL to see the game state for what it really is.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Nothing better to say?

[NorwegianboyEE]

It’s demotivating because i’m town and you continue pressing the point that i’m not instead of looking at the obvscum standing right beside you.
I’ve cased Pine properly and the response is: "I disagree with your hard facts, also you are toxic.". I have no problems with Pine disagreeing with my logic since it’s in his wincon to discredit a push on him. But i do find the continued focus on language rather tiring as it is irrelevant to my case and serves mainly as a distraction. Whether he intends to or not.

[NorwegianboyEE]

tbh

i'm in an awkward position where i dont know what decision to make right now

and dont have the motivation to reread

but nothing new is happening

so it's just

stuck

And what are you going to do about it?

[NorwegianboyEE]

I suggest you read my case again. You’ll find it in my ISO.
Post 3575

[NorwegianboyEE]

I’m leaving for the night.
Misty if you need hand holding through qhat core pounts make Pine scum just ask me for it.

[NorwegianboyEE]

What core points*

[NorwegianboyEE]

I find this robbery analogy strange.
FL, your read on me was never strong. You called me out as possible scum, i fight back. You increase your intensity in calling me scum, i fight back harder. You then call me out as the most obvious scum that has ever existed, i fight back and post an legitimate case on Pine but you are so blinded by your read on me that you no longer see the forest for the trees.

I do not recall a single strong argument from you in favour of why i scum that justifies the intensity of your amscumread. And it is only by my knowledge of your character that i consider this extreme tunnel and extreme anger at an unkillable town slot you read as scum, to be potentially town indicative for you.

[NorwegianboyEE]

This game is quite easy to understand from my POV.
FL becomes infatuated with my slot. Scum!Pine and scum!Ramcius jump on my wagon. Nobody of the actual town joins in the push. FL goes mad and assumes scum are defending me, he looks at TSQ. But in reality both scum have always been on my wagon and FL has been played like a fiddle by Pine.

[NorwegianboyEE]

On day 2 DEB didn’t get a chance to hammer me because only one single town was willing to join on the push against me, namely FL himself. Which is not enough for an majority.

[NorwegianboyEE]

so don't act like it's nothing.

I town read every slot in this game too besides Status to an extent Ramcius.

It is nothing.
VCA shows Pine and Ram is scum using your vote on me as an excuse to jump on.
I have not been discrediting any players other than scum and you because you’ve been trying to eliminate me for weak and faulty reasoning and i point it out.

[NorwegianboyEE]

What is this bad aura?
Is it a tone read? Based on what?

[NorwegianboyEE]

I was very emotional at the start of the game and Pine has been preying on that weakness, hence my change of personality and avatar. When you take so much crap tossed your way it eventually becomes just a part of life. I’ve developed defense mechanisms if you will.

[NorwegianboyEE]

based on everything i said in that exact post...?

I often react negatively to any push on me. Not scum indicative.
Any other points?

[NorwegianboyEE]

You should know after i mislimmed you in that game where you was Pretentious and with Guillotina. You scumread me, i was town.

[NorwegianboyEE]

ABR pocketed you in that game just like Pine has here, and just like ABR. Pine used the strategy of forcefully shuttung me down after registrating me as an threat.
ABR literally posted on the scum PT in that game: "Made Norwee shut up "
Which is the strategy Pine is using as well. Or did use, until moderator said it wasn’t ok.

[NorwegianboyEE]

And just like in that game, your constant need to aggressively push your own belief over every single other players, because in your mind you are always right. It is lenghtening the game exponentially when it was already on the right ttack. You’re not hero solving an Norwee/TSQ push. You’re just standing in the way of the fact that Pine fake claimed ungated jailkeeper in an setup with only gated roles and Ramcius whom is their buddy that’s been defending Pine in a much more subtle manner that indicates partnership.

[NorwegianboyEE]

You had one correct slot out of 3. And for no other reason than luck because Gamma had done nothing scummy.
That’s an bad solve.

[NorwegianboyEE]

If i flip town would you agree Pine/Ramcius are the scum team? And don’t give me some cute reply, answer truthfully.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Sure, vote me out. I’ll gladly flip town to prove my case is legitimate. I do not see why anyone would doubt this perfect solve for a second unless they think i am scum.

[NorwegianboyEE]

And if i do get eliminated here, do not listen to any more excuses from Pine. Eliminate him and then Ramcius no matter what Pine claims.

[NorwegianboyEE]

We aren't voting you out.

We're voting Shea out. He's the actual threat.

If you think i’m so obviously scum it makes no sense for you to target someone else.
This is setting up an mislim chain.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I have never seen someone claim to be so sure of a scumread, but voting someone else that is just a likely partner if i am scum (which is not even proved).
This is one of those false stances scum take that they think town does.

[NorwegianboyEE]

And if TSQ is town?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Intent to hammer.

My team thinks it’s Pine/FL.

I think it can be Ramcius. But if it’s not then it can only really be FL.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Your team is wrong, Nancy, and FADE FUCKING NORWEGIAN TOMORROW FOR THE LOVE OF GOD

If Pine flips scum too?

[NorwegianboyEE]

My role results in hard confirmations.

Your spot is very weak and your case on me and TSQ even weaker, so trying to cause paranoia about the elimination by flexing your "powerful role" is all that is left.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Admitting your claim is bad but that makes you town, is quite the stretch and wholly unconvincing as TSQ says.
And you’re right, you should have chosen X-shot or something simple. But you didn’t, and now you messed up.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I'll be honest, I'm really paranoid of TSQ/FL team here, FL doing 180 on me and not voting TSQ, while talking me/TSQ and Norwee TSQ teams

My team is re-acessing. A Pine/FL team makes absolutely no sense with DEB’s role.

Which would likely mean one scum amongst the vt claims.

I’m starting to buy into Pine’s earnestness now that he’s explained his plan. If Shea flips scum and he jk’s Norwee and no kill happens, it could possibly break the game wide open.

I don’t think I want Pine limmed today.

I don't see how that breaks the game open at all. It involves TSQ flipping scum
if TSQ flips town then what happens?
The only game-breaking part of that plan is where someone flips scum. We achieve that by flipping Pine
We're also still pushing a Pine/Ram scumteam because JJ believes FL is town. In fact, we have been doing that for most of this game day.

[NorwegianboyEE]

FL/Pine scumteam doesn’t make sense mech wise, so possibly safest elim is in one of the scummier vt slots.

Who are these scummier VT slots according to you? I also don't see how FL/Pine team not making sense means that Pine's claim is somehow made legitimate, because it is not.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I think you’re realizing that a Pine/FL scumteam makes no sense mech wise with DEB flip, so you’re now pushing Ram.

No i've said that FL is likely town and Ramcius is a more likely teammate for a while. This is not a recent development.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I have been strongly fighting against any elimination that is not in me/Pine today, so to say i'm going to push Ramcius is a misunderstanding of my mindset. I simply want Pine eliminated for his fake claim, so if that is impossible because i have not enough town credit then i simply ask that you eliminate me, and once i'm proved town get rid of Pine.
Ramcius is simply the slot that should be eliminated after Pine flips scum, not at any other point. My vote has and will always be Pine for reasons i've described.

[NorwegianboyEE]

If one of you/Shea flips scum and Pine roleblocks the other - considering the fact that both of you claimed vt, how does this hurt us, especially since FL has committed to being leashed on doccing Akarin?

Basically, if anyone dies, then he’s probably scum and Ram being opposed to this is likely protown because with you jk’d and FL on Akarin, you’d be lockcleared if an NK happens, so why are you so opposed to this plan?

I'm opposed to the plan because it does not end up in scum getting eliminated today. TSQ is simply getting led up for an elimination as a proxy for me because scum!Pine couldn't garner enough support for my elimination. The case against TSQ is very weak by itself and i fail to see how he is likely scum with anyone in the game so far. He certainly does not fit as scum with Pine, whom has fake claimed his role as you might remember.

I mean, your argument doesn't make Pine any less likely to be the scum. And if we flip town!TSQ or town!Norwe that is playing right into scum's hands no matter what, and if we flip scum that is positive no matter what.
There is nothing net positive for this plan if we don't flip someone as scum.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I have been strongly fighting against any elimination that is not in me/Pine today, so to say i'm going to push Ramcius is a misunderstanding of my mindset. I simply want Pine eliminated for his fake claim, so if that is impossible because i have not enough town credit then i simply ask that you eliminate me, and once i'm proved town get rid of Pine.
Ramcius is simply the slot that should be eliminated after Pine flips scum, not at any other point. My vote has and will always be Pine for reasons i've described.

If you’re town and Pine claims he will jk you, then you’re mech cleared in the case of an NK, so why would you be opposed to that?

Let's say we flip town!TSQ.
Misty dies in the night, Pine says he jailkept me, FL says he doctored akarin
Where are we now.
Pine probably just argues that the second scum that was not Norwe made the kill and it doesn't prove anything.

[NorwegianboyEE]

The plan relies on flipping scum, and TSQ is not scum.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Ramcius might be scum. If someone is gonna be flipped for this plan I would almost be willing to consider Ramcius. But I'm not. Because Pine is just scum here, and this is a plan that was suggested by scum who have more info than us.

[NorwegianboyEE]

This is precisely why Jailkeeper was such a good fake claim for Pine, because even though we caught him out for lying. He can still keep himself afloat by arguing that he will be of such an great asset to town alive if his claim is true, even though it is not and it will in reality not be helpful at all because if we flip town today then he can argue that his JK shot couldn't clear anyone because there are still 2 scum alive.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Nancy i strongly implore you to not lose the game for us and vote Pine here. We are this close and this will screw us if you start believing Pine's fake claim. He is by all means, super scummy. But his claim is keeping him alive. You've got to learn to see past that.

[NorwegianboyEE]

The plan relies on flipping scum, and TSQ is not scum.

What makes TSQ not scum?

That Pine is scum and wants their elimination. He has also done nothing i see to be scummy, i've townread him since very early.
(From my POV he is obvtown because i know he is not allied with me and that makes him unlikely ally with anyone else, but i know that's not convincing. Just a footnote to make TSQ himself see why i trust him.)

[NorwegianboyEE]

Well yes, town!Norwee should jump at the chance of being lockcleared since he claimed vt

If Pine is scum and TSQ flips town, Pine will claim to be JK'ing town!me and arguing that i'm not cleared scum.
TSQ is also very likely not scum from my POV.
This is an awful plan because Pine is mafia fake claiming and i don't even believe their claim so why would i jump on the chance to have him "locktown" me? This is an ridiculous proposition.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Fact is, you're arguing from the standpoint that Pine's claim is legitimate, which i have been argued it is not for this entire time. So to suspect me for not agreeing to a plan that assumes Pine has these powers is fundamentally flawed.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Also the plan completely ignores the chance that scum!Pine could easily come up with some strategy to bypass any "confirmations" it might give to town that you assume will happen.

[NorwegianboyEE]

But who would kill Misty with Pine’s plan? If Shea/you flipped town and Misty dies, that’s terrible for Pine isn’t it? But if no one dies, then it either points to you or scum no kill. The point is that his plan is extremely protown because one of you get cleared if kill happens, so how is it in scum!Pine’s interest to jk/potentially clear you/Shea?

because he simply won't JK any of me/Shea. Or he will claim he did but we are still possible scum because 2 scum are alive and he can argue our "partner" might have commited the kill and then continue arguing for any of our elimination.
This is all just a plan Pine is insisting on to stay alive and it's not in town's interest.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Also the plan completely ignores the chance that scum!Pine could easily come up with some strategy to bypass any "confirmations" it might give to town that you assume will happen.

How with DEB flip?

Given that a Pine/FL team makes no sense mechwise, it means that even if Pine’s scum, his buddy is likely in one of the vt claims and I just don’t think it’s Ram.

Explain to me why it's not Ram.

[NorwegianboyEE]

The plan relies on flipping scum, and TSQ is not scum.

What makes TSQ not scum?

That Pine is scum and wants their elimination. He has also done nothing i see to be scummy, i've townread him since very early.
(From my POV he is obvtown because i know he is not allied with me and that makes him unlikely ally with anyone else, but i know that's not convincing. Just a footnote to make TSQ himself see why i trust him.)

What he did so towny to earn your early tr?

Playing with no agenda, eager to solve, not aligned with anyone, questioning claims, townie posts.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Also the plan completely ignores the chance that scum!Pine could easily come up with some strategy to bypass any "confirmations" it might give to town that you assume will happen.

How with DEB flip?

Given that a Pine/FL team makes no sense mechwise, it means that even if Pine’s scum, his buddy is likely in one of the vt claims and I just don’t think it’s Ram.

Explain to me why it's not Ram.

Because with either you/Shea jk’d, agreeing to Pine’s plan puts him at risk if he’s scum here, wouldn’t it?

If Pine is his partner and their vote of TSQ flips town today then this doesn't put him at risk in any way.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Anyway let's wait to see what Misty and Akarin says, if they agree with my plan of elimating Pine still then please just vote Pine @Nancy.

[NorwegianboyEE]

If they still believe in a Pine solve then you should follow the majority as game will be stuck otherwise.

[NorwegianboyEE]

@Nancy I will let you think for yourself. But i just want to say a little bit.

Basically i just have two questions for you.

What would you expect Pine to do in the case of a TSQ townflip?
Why would this be useful at all for solving the game?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Why is it safer to elim a VT over Pine right now when we think Pine has the highest chance individually of flipping scum.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Pine being alive doesn't make that scenario any better for town. And i think eliming anywhere other than Pine lowers our odds of hitting scum. Pine being alive is only arguably beneficial if we are guaranteed to hit scum elsewhere.

[NorwegianboyEE]

If a kill happens, he wouldn't be accusing the person he jailkept of that kill. He would be saying that they are still scum, even though they did not make the kill, because there is a second scum in that scenario. The jailkeep proves nothing in the scenario where there are still 2 scum.

[NorwegianboyEE]

And therein lies the problem in not eliminating Pine for their claim.
It clearly can work against town if it’s a scum fake claim. And without guiltying Pine.
He would be able to argue for his innocense despite if the night and elimination ends up becoming a pro-scum result.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Pine's buddy is Ram. jjh927 specifically told me to say that the deb strongman does not rule out a Pine/FL team. It indicates with some fairly weak setup spec that it's not Pine/FL, but it's not conclusive owing to this being weak setup spec

[NorwegianboyEE]

To elaborate, the reason it is weak setup spec is because you are drawing large conclusions about the setup from a single flip within that setup.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Strong setup spec, such as the indication that there are no ungated roles in this setup, comes from looking at all the information we have at once.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Pine's buddy is Ram. jjh927 specifically told me to say that the deb strongman does not rule out a Pine/FL team. It indicates with some fairly weak setup spec that it's not Pine/FL, but it's not conclusive owing to this being weak setup spec

I do not believe JJH endorsed that. Full stop.

JJH is asking me why you don’t believe he said that.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I envy your role pm Misty because it would be gold on my slot.
JJH shares this sentiment.

[NorwegianboyEE]

@Nancy
'implies' is the key word. It doesn't say "definitely means town has significant protectives".

[NorwegianboyEE]

We still think it's Pine/Ram, but JJH would not be so fast to rule out Pine/FL because of setup spec that is based on a single role in the setup. He is however, personally ruling out FL because he townreads him based on his posts.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Pine's buddy is Ram. jjh927 specifically told me to say that the deb strongman does not rule out a Pine/FL team. It indicates with some fairly weak setup spec that it's not Pine/FL, but it's not conclusive owing to this being weak setup spec

I do not believe JJH endorsed that. Full stop.

That’s why my team is reacessing now because once I explained to Math about the strongman, he realized a you/FL team along with a DEB strongman and no other counterbalancing TPR roles, makes absolutely no sense with just a 1 shot doc and Shea has modded games so I don’t understand how he can honestly believe this.

I've modded games with gunsmith with no guns in them. Shrug.

Why would you have gunsmith as role without guns? It’s similar to having a miller/godfather without an AC, loyal/disloyal or desperado in the setup or a ninja with no tracker.

JJ claims it's a mod meta thing. As a moderator who mods lots of games, you build things into your setups specifically to remind people from time to time that they shouldn't make assumptions about your setups. I've put a scum miller into my setup before and a town rolecop assumed it was an inno.
If you don't do things like that then your setups become more predictable and therefore more town-sided.

[NorwegianboyEE]

JJ put scum miller*

[NorwegianboyEE]

JJ claims it's a mod meta thing. As a moderator who mods lots of games, you build things into your setups specifically to remind people from time to time that they shouldn't make assumptions about your setups. JJ put a scum miller into his setup before and a town rolecop assumed it was an inno.
If mods don't do things like that then the setups become more predictable and therefore more town-sided.

Ebwop

[NorwegianboyEE]

Like, even from a scum strategy point.
It's so obvious that one of the unique viable ways for a scum win for Pine, is to miseliminate someone else today.
And do another 1v1 with me tomorrow. And all we gained from it later is the fact we can't eliminate both Ramcius/FL anymore, and the Pine partner is likely there, so they have at least a 50% chance of victory in that world.
He also can kill Akarin off so it's Mistyx/Nancy/Ramcius/FL. All of which are very indecisive towards him.
It’s genuinely mafia 101.
If it's Pine/FL for example, that's a straight up scum win if they manage to do Status today.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Even if it's Pine/Ramcius, they have 50% chance of victory at minimum if they miseliminate Status today, 1v1 me tomorrow again, and try to incriminate town!FL in final day.

[NorwegianboyEE]

If Pine is scum, not eliminating him today is the unique viable way for us to not have enough to eliminate both his most likely partners. Which is the the biggest reason for why i’m fighting for an elimination on him today and not believing in the "let’s not kill Pine yet" plan.

[NorwegianboyEE]

The unique way Pine's plan actually works in town favor is if we both hit scum today, and Pine is town, and if Pine is scum he of course isn't gonna agree with eliminating his partner today, so Status would be guaranteed to flip town.

[NorwegianboyEE]

tl;dr if pine is scum it always work in his favor to miseliminate status today, it goes from 0% chance of winning to 50% chance of winning the game if his partner is in FL/Ramcius.

[NorwegianboyEE]

It wouldn’t be awful but i strongly prefer Pine.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Because that suggests a Strongman with only a 1-shot Doc in the setup.

1 shot strongman with 2 protective JOATS.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Why didn’t you count Flavour?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Why didn’t you count Flavour?

because thats in the condition that its a pine/fl team

can you answer my question

I answered you. My previous post stating Ramcius isn’t an awful elim but i prefer Pine was the reply.

[NorwegianboyEE]

No

You’re either saying FL/Pine is possible, in which case the only Town protective ability AT ALL is a 1-shot Doc

Or you’re saying it’s not possible for a FL/Pine team, which is something you swear JJH believes.

You can’t have this both ways.

This is not the reasoning of a player or team reading this critically with an intent to solve

Like it’s just you/Ramcius.

[NorwegianboyEE]

No he doesn’t. He said he wouldn’t rule it out based on mechanics because that’s weak setup spec, but he rules it out because of FL’s pinging town to him.

[NorwegianboyEE]

because thats in the condition that its a pine/fl team

I missed this part of the post when reading it over initially.

[NorwegianboyEE]

FL/Pine is mechanically possible. I'm not saying it's highly likely mechanically. JJ is also saying FL is highly unlikely to be scum based on reads anyway.
This isn't having it both ways; this is a singular statement of fact which we have maintained

[NorwegianboyEE]

My ISO/our opinions might look confusing because we haven't made some things clear
So let's make it clear:
First of all, shirou was the one mostly helping me in my game and he thought from D1 that it was Pine/FL, with the caveat that there could be from 1 to 2 scum in [DEB, Akarin, Ramcius] depending on Pine/FL flips.
That's why in D1 / D2 / D3 start i was focusing on Pine/FL, because it was Shirou that was mostly helping in my game and i thought their solve seemed good.
Later, JJH did read the game around D2 EoD and started to help us out intensely in D3, while Shirou got bored from the lack of progress in eliminating from their solve and stopped checking.
JJH think it's likely Pine/Ramcius, but in reply to Shirou’s theory of Pine/FL, he says that it's not impossible. It is likely just Pine/Ram though.
At the time when Ram was pushing for the TSQ elim, it was the winning move for a Pine/Ram scumteam since FL was the likely final elim, FL has just not played in a way that resembles a winning scum strategy today at all, which indicates it's not scum FL.
Is Pine scum? Yes. Both Shirou, JJ and also me have always believed so.
Is Ramcius scum? Yes absolutely, it is the unique slot that makes the most sense as Pine’s scum teammate. And they are the one pushing For scum!Pine’s plan to endgame.
Is FL scum? No, he is howver. A huge detriment to town, as Pine has pocketed him and he is pushing scum’s agenda. Howver, he is making one crucial difference, he is pushing me today. Which is not the ideal elimination for scum!Pine. And also we have agreed that both Pine/FL being scum makes little sense mechanically. Which is very possible. In which case FL is the town stooge and scum team is exactly

Pine/Ramcius

.

[NorwegianboyEE]

so that just leaves norwee/tsq or you/ram

Precisely.
So the decision should be clear.
Either you all eliminate in one of me/TSQ or Pine/Ram.
If one of Pine/Ram flips scum then the other should be eliminated as well.
If one of me/TSQ flips town then it proves the scum team is not in us and Pine/Ram should be strongly considered.
Just don’t get confused by any results Pine claims to have because they are fabricated.

[NorwegianboyEE]

With FL scum siding today it makes it really hard to eliminate scum!Pine so i’d be open for an Ram elimination. But like i’ve said. I believe Pine’s fake claim is so extremely obvious that it would sadden me greatly if we actually don’t just kill that slot today. I’ve even said that i will gladly sacrifice my slot if Pine for some reason does end up flipping town. Which is not something i would do if i was scum here, that’s just suicide. I am just that sure.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Yes.

[NorwegianboyEE]

FL will you vote Pine if i flip town?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Don’t you find it incredibly strange that all of Ram/Pine agree with you that i’m scum but you’re the only one voting me over TSQ.

[NorwegianboyEE]

We’re honestly on the same page right now FL. We’re both pushing that the elimination should be in me/Pine today. The main difference is that you want me over Pine.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Sounds like crap to me.
TSQ is also a whole lot townier than you have been let’s be real. Pine’s read on you is entirely undeserved and makes sense for partner equity.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Me flipping town would be a greater blow to FL’s ego and might convince him to vote Pine so TSQ is a bad flip for me in the context of getting closer to having scum!Pine eliminated.

[NorwegianboyEE]

taking a day off really helped i think

yeah, one of Norwegian/Pine today, guys

im just ready to move on

I really want to believe in you, but posts like this just makes me see you and TSQ as a team and Norwee just being really bad town

Ramcius is still fighting for that TSQ flip. Which is the optimal one for scum!Pine here.
If you really believed in a me/TSQ team you would be 100% ok with a flip on me today.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Pushing a FL/TSQ team is 100% as FL says, an scummy repositioning of the game state.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Norwee just being really bad town

This part really sells scum!Ram for me. I do not believe town!you would call me "just bad town" here. This is an artificial stance you've created to justify an TSQ flip.

[NorwegianboyEE]

It's Pine/Ramcius for sure. Even Shirou agrees on this now, Ramcius is pushing Pine's scum agenda much more openly. Their goal is to get a miselimination on both me and TSQ, it doesn't matter who goes first for them.

[NorwegianboyEE]

FL is town in this world. It's just Pine that pocketed him and he couldn't turn away his scumread on me.

[NorwegianboyEE]

It's Pine/Ramcius for sure. Even Shirou agrees on this now, Ramcius is pushing Pine's scum agenda much more openly. Their goal is to get a miselimination on both me and TSQ, it doesn't matter who goes first for them.

Just one more time - TSQ green flip clears you, it's literally impossible to flip both of you

Is that why you're now pushing FL as the next alternative for once TSQ flips town?

[NorwegianboyEE]

I insist that the elimination be either me or Pine today, i will not see an TSQ elim happening.

[NorwegianboyEE]

TSQ green flip clears you, it's literally impossible to flip both of you

"TSQ town flip clears you"
There's literally not enough scum from your PoV to not include me in a team as long as you locktown read Pine.
If TSQ flips town, your PoE is in [Norwe, FL], and there would be 2 scum alive.
Like, what is exactly the team in that scenario, it doesn't make sense.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I think my biggest worry is that it would be Ram vs FL for final day, and Nancy would hard town read Ram.
But Ramcius is more likely Pine's scum teammate based on today.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I think another acceptable strategy at this point would be to eliminate Ramcius and leash Pine's JK shot to certain targets so that if Ramcius flips scum Pine cant claim he target some slot we already know is conf!town but he'd be forced to clear a suspicious slot.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Oh look at Pine preparing for TSQ’s townflip already.

[NorwegianboyEE]

And the good old "discredit town" by claiming i’m just playing a bad game.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Shea flips, and we can confirm/clear potential partners at will.

This is assuming TSQ flips scum, which he won’t. So your argument is fundamentally flawed and just buzzwords. Claiming town victory will be within reach if only we eliminate TSQ, which is in fact. A complete and utter lie.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I’ve already confirmed you as scum for fake claiming.
There are no ungated roles in this setup.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I don’t know what’s up with FL here but I definitely think Ram is town and Pine’s plan is protown. I’m not sure if I should vote for Norwee or Shea yet but I have some paranoia that Norwee might actually know his alignment, since he seems to be beyond convinced that She’s flipping town.

FL suddenly wavering on his hard town Pine read, why?

I’m really paranoid that it might actually be FL/Norwee and prior to that I was going to post that it was likely a Norwee/Shea team but now I’m wondering if Math was actually right?

Do you think both scum are in the vanilla claims, or if it's 1 in vanilla and 1 in PR, or if it's both in PR claims?

[NorwegianboyEE]

I don't see what the scum case on TSQ is beyond PoE either.
Like it's so obvious to me that the only reason he's being pushed is because scum fake claimed and is now trying to control the gamestate by claiming they are uneliminable because of their claim and now we apparently have to eliminate town because he's so obvscum, of course Ramcius is still very possible scum. But Pine completely ignores that slot and claims we're not eliminating there for some unfathomable reason.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Pine has 0 plan for someone flipping town today. It is identical to flipping 2 people.
That is not a mechanical plan and it's wrong to phrase it as one.
We will support any plan that allows for a town victory in the case of a Pine/Ram scumteam. Does the plan account for that?

[NorwegianboyEE]

See Pine jking either you or Shea would clear whomever but I don’t believe scum!Ram says green flip on you/Shea clears the other. Scum doesn’t want clears. That’s a transparently townie thought.

Pine JKing only clears in the event of a scumflip today, which won't happen if we follow scum!Pine off a cliff.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Do you think this 7 town PRs vs 3 scum, 1 of whom is a 1-shot strongman?
The previous game was 6 town PRs vs 3 scum PRs.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I dont think its fair to say pine completely ignored ramcius. I just find his reason for finding him town really uncompelling and hand wavey.

Yeah that's what i meant. But if you want to be theatrical you might as well just say he has ignored the slot. Or at the very least, appeared very unconcerned with it.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Pine has 0 plan for someone flipping town today. It is identical to flipping 2 people.
That is not a mechanical plan and it's wrong to phrase it as one.
We will support any plan that allows for a town victory in the case of a Pine/Ram scumteam. Does the plan account for that?

If Pine claims to jk you/Shea and a kill happens, then he has no choice but to clear whichever one of you he claims to jk because if a kill still happens during the jk, then he’s a liar basically. And if no kill happens then all 3 confitown slots survive the NK, so how isn’t that protown?

If a townflip happens today then he won't need or even theoretically be able to clear anyone that night, and scum!Pine would know this and can thus make all the promises he wants as long as it secures the miselimination on TSQ which he would be gunning for in this scum!Pine world.

[NorwegianboyEE]

You're still pretty much assuming the plan will go in this order.

TSQ flips scum ->
Pine JK's a slot and catches final scum or clears them as town.

But what i am saying is that the entire premise is flawed from the get go, because if TSQ flips town then he can't clear anyone. So unless you are absolutely sure TSQ flips scum this plan is completely folly and it also makes complete sense for scum!Pine to argue for this plan sunce he would know TSQ is flipping town.

[NorwegianboyEE]

If all the PR claims are true and town-aligned, then town has:
A tracker/watcher/voyeur joat
2 Doctor/Follower/Commuter joats
A 1 shot neighbouriser
A 1 shot novice vig
A venge
A full, ungated jailkeeper
It's likely that one of the claims is false.
And that's independent of the ungated jailkeeper being something that doesn't mesh with the setup.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Do you think this 7 town PRs vs 3 scum, 1 of whom is a 1-shot strongman?
The previous game was 6 town PRs vs 3 scum PRs.

There are 6 - in both flips/claims: Zor/molla/Akarin/Misty/Pine/FL vs 1 scum PR/DEB that we know of.

You forgot TGP 1-shot neighborizer. There are 7.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Do you think this 7 town PRs vs 3 scum, 1 of whom is a 1-shot strongman?
The previous game was 6 town PRs vs 3 scum PRs.

There are 6 - in both flips/claims: Zor/molla/Akarin/Misty/Pine/FL vs 1 scum PR/DEB that we know of.

You forgot TGP 1-shot neighborizer. There are 7.

Oh right, well it might mean then that one of FL/Pine could be lying.

Yeah that's what we've been saying, and we believe it is likely Pine's claim that is the fake one.

[NorwegianboyEE]

If all the PR claims are true and town-aligned, then town has:
A tracker/watcher/voyeur joat
2 Doctor/Follower/Commuter joats
A 1 shot neighbouriser
A 1 shot novice vig
A venge
A full, ungated jailkeeper
It's likely that one of the claims is false.
And that's independent of the ungated jailkeeper being something that doesn't mesh with the setup.

Based on this, Pine’s claim is more believable than FL’s being identical to molla’s.

JJ wants me to tell you that 2 identical roles is well within the expected mod wifom from this game. And they've concluded FL is more likely the town claim than Pine.

[NorwegianboyEE]

He expects that PenguinPower would design the setup with something that would punish us for assuming the setup was the exact same as last time. However, it would not be so far away from the previous setup as to include an entirely ungated role.

[NorwegianboyEE]

You're still pretty much assuming the plan will go in this order.

TSQ flips scum ->
Pine JK's a slot and catches final scum or clears them as town.

But what i am saying is that the entire premise is flawed from the get go, because if TSQ flips town then he can't clear anyone. So unless you are absolutely sure TSQ flips scum this plan is completely folly and it also makes complete sense for scum!Pine to argue for this plan sunce he would know TSQ is flipping town.

But Ram is saying that either of you flipping town clears the other one right? So why does scum!Ram say this?

Because he only needs to elim 1 more player if he mislims today. And the easiest path for scum!Ram is to elim FL, either before or after scum!Pine.

[NorwegianboyEE]

You're still pretty much assuming the plan will go in this order.

TSQ flips scum ->
Pine JK's a slot and catches final scum or clears them as town.

But what i am saying is that the entire premise is flawed from the get go, because if TSQ flips town then he can't clear anyone. So unless you are absolutely sure TSQ flips scum this plan is completely folly and it also makes complete sense for scum!Pine to argue for this plan sunce he would know TSQ is flipping town.

But Ram is saying that either of you flipping town clears the other one right? So why does scum!Ram say this?

Because he only needs to elim 1 more player if he mislims today. And the easiest path for scum!Ram is to elim FL, either before or after scum!Pine.

I mean it's also pretty obvious that following a TSQ or Norwe townflip, he would not have the credibility to mislim the other.

[NorwegianboyEE]

But wouldn’t Pine’s plan stop the NK? Or you’re arguing that he’s trying to set up FL or something?

Scum!Ramcius would not be able to finish the game by mislimming both me and TSQ so they will eventually need to frame FL.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Which we've already seen the starting of with Ramcius and Pine putting doubt on FL earlier.

[NorwegianboyEE]

What is Pine's plan if we mislim today?
There are 2 scum, and if we mislim there are still 2 scum. If Pine's plan is to jailkeep 1 suspected scum, the other scum can do the kill.

[NorwegianboyEE]

You can’t ask me what my plan is if Shea flips Town then accuse me of having a plan for when Shea flips Town. You can’t have it both ways.

This is an argument devoid of any meaning.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Let's take an unlikely scenario. It's a thought exercise. Let's say it's scum!Ram and scum!FL.
Pine's plan is to elim TSQ and jail norwe. In this scenario, TSQ flips town, and Pine subsequently jails norwe.
Scum can make a kill. Both scum!Ram and scum!FL are free to kill whoever they like, and decides to kill Misty.

Let's look at a scenario we know to be false, for the sake of it- scum!Ram and scum!Norwe.
Pine's plan is to elim TSQ and jail norwe. In this scenario, TSQ flips town, and Pine subsequently jails norwe.
Scum!Ram is free to make a kill on whoever he likes, and decides to kill Misty.

Let's look at the scenario we believe is true. Scum!Ram and Scum!Pine.
Pine's plan is to elim TSQ and jail norwe. In this scenario, TSQ flips town, and Pine subsequently claims to have jailed norwe.
Scum!Ram and scum!Pine are both free to make a kill on whoever they like, and decide to kill Misty.


What is the difference between these scenarios? If you were in day 4 of any of these scenarios, would you be able to tell the difference between them?

[NorwegianboyEE]

You demanded I explain what if Shea flips Town.

I think about it, try to sort on that assumption, give thoughts.

The issue with your plan for if TSQ flips town is that FL is not a 2 man scumteam by himself.

[NorwegianboyEE]

JJH is spitballing to me right now the best way to go forward if we do a TSQ elimination today.

TSQ mislim, no leashing for protective claims at night with assumption for continued play being worst case scenario of consensus town being killed.
Elim scum!Ram, pine leashed to jailing FL leading to a no kill because scum is surely within pine/fl
Elim Pine and FL in any order
This plan accounts for scum!Ram with either scum!Pine or scum!FL
however, it does rely on scum!Ram and would lose to a Pine/FL scumteam

[NorwegianboyEE]

Does Jingle see any problems with this proposed plan?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Norwee, why are you proposing that we flip a slot you’ve been hard tr all game?

I’m not.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Unless you’re asking me why i’m coming up with a plan for if TSQ is eliminated, well that is because you people aren’t voting scum!Pine so we need a contingency plan for that.

[NorwegianboyEE]

There’s a difference between stating: "I am willing to vote TSQ" (which i am not) and: "Ok, you guys just miseliminated TSQ. Here’s what we need to do: "etc... etc..."

[NorwegianboyEE]

Unless you’re asking me why i’m coming up with a plan for if TSQ is eliminated, well that is because you people aren’t voting scum!Pine so we need a contingency plan for that.

Why is Shea your “contingency plan”?

He isn’t. Can you stop saying things i don’t stand for at all? I’m saying that IF TSQ for some reason becomes the elimination today despite all my wishes then we should follow my contingency plan in the case that they flip town.

[NorwegianboyEE]

JJ tells me Nancy has misunderstood a large portion of the mechanics and should reread them until they make sense to her.
Key highlights:
-Misty is the most likely nightkill in the hypothetical scenarios given because JJ was accounting for Akarin being a protective target that FL is leashed to.
-FL is JKed on N4 in the event of a D3 TSQ mislim and a D4 Ram scumflip. His doc is one-shot so he won't have a shot on N4.
-Regardless of this, if we mislim today then I advise that we do not leash on N3 because if you're going to pretend there are two protectives currently, there are 3 consensus town. Scum probably lose by killing anyone who isn't consensus town here. If we leash protectives onto 2 out of 3 consensus town, then the third one gets killed every time. If we leave it to RNG we have very good odds of stopping a kill
-We do not support a TSQ elim. We are suggesting a plan specifically for the event in which other people force through a TSQ elim and he inevitably flips town.

[NorwegianboyEE]

With FL's elaboration on his stance, we think he has reached the correct conclusion on the gamestate and therefore we object even harder to a TSQ flip.

[NorwegianboyEE]

With FL's elaboration on his stance, we think he has reached the correct conclusion on the gamestate and therefore we object even harder to a TSQ flip.

Which is a you or Pine flip, so you’re fine then with possibly being the elim?

Yes, i think it's much more important to resolve in this Pine/me 1v1 today. And if i become the flip and flip town then Pine should go tommorow.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Between me and TSQ being the mislim, it being me is not preferable to Pine because that will prove how absolutely scummy he's been in regards to my slot in this whole game when i flip town.

[NorwegianboyEE]

To be clear. I only really want the option to be between [Pine, Ramcius, Norwee] today. Any other elimination is unacceptable. Of these my level of preference is Pine -> Ramcius -> Norwee
Ramcius is second because he is the most viable partner to scum!Pine. Me third because i believe my flip would convince the remaining town slots to eliminate in Pine/Ram and save TSQ from becoming an miselimination in the future.

[NorwegianboyEE]

i dont understand anti Ramcius-Norwegian?

for me it's either

Ramcius-Norwegian
Status-Norwegian
Pine-Ramcius

so it feels to me like status push is indicative of Ramcius scum

Scum has to have at least one goon right? So Norwee wanting to be limmed > Shea could possibly be for that reason - if he’s scum here.

Ridiculous. I would not be offering myself if TSQ was my partner. I would be pushing hard for Ramcius or something. The reason i want to be limmed if Pine isn't happening it's because it's the only way to make FL stop tunneling.

[NorwegianboyEE]

norwegian does not want to be faded, if they're scum that's just trying to make you double think

Just look at him, he is not using his head because he doesn't feel he has to. He has "caught scum" in his mind.
That's why it's so important to shatter it because FL will screw us if he isn't proved wrong on me here.

[NorwegianboyEE]

so when people are saying status is the optimal fade, i just dont agree with that at all.

Precisely. TSQ is not the optimal lim because it only disproves or proves a single team, that is me/TSQ. Me or Pine flipping would prove a lot more about what is going on. And that is precisely why Pine didn't want the flip on me over TSQ, because he is not wanting town to solve the game.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Pine is now going the route of saying TSQ is PR and that's why i'm protecting him, but how the fuck does that make sense? So i will make myself flip goon, and somehow that will convince people TSQ isn't my scum teammate? Seriously, this isn't logical play from me whatsoever if i'm scum with TSQ here.

[NorwegianboyEE]

At least FL's argument of me doing it for WIFOM makes actual sense from scum!me.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Come on Pine, vote me.
What are you afraid of?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Do you think me flipping goon would save TSQ if he is scum PR?

[NorwegianboyEE]

I dare you, i double dare you Pine. Vote me, have me flip goon. And then eliminate TSQ scum PR tommorow.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Come on Pine, vote me.
What are you afraid of?

This is not, and never has been about you.

What is this? You say TSQ is my teammate so why won't you eliminate me?

[NorwegianboyEE]

I do see it, though, Pine and Ramcius if scum have set me up completely to be faded tomorrow if they are scum

Like I am most likely on the chopping block tomorrow no matter what

Uh, no. Not no matter what.

Especially not from your perspective.

Why are you pushing Pine/Ramcius when you still swear it’s Norwegian?

Like, hold up. Full stop.

This does not make sense from your perspective.

UNVOTE:

Explain. Now.

FL's stance is clearly explained as thinking it's me/TSQ. but on the off chance it isn't then it's you/Ramicus. Which is the exact team i'm pushing. I'm not sure what part of this doesn't make sense from him?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Norwee, Jingle and I are becoming increasingly worried that it’s been Shea/FL all along, subtly pushing the you/me dichotomy. They win either way there.

What makes you think they are a team?

[NorwegianboyEE]

JJ says he doesn't see a single team that doesn't include Ramcius atm.

[NorwegianboyEE]

It's fine if you answer later, but just be aware that i want to know what you see between Pine/TSQ and what justifies this argument.

[NorwegianboyEE]

FL/TSQ*

[NorwegianboyEE]

or im just flip flopping, im gonna give myself a second to step back before i get tunneled.

id really hate to lose to Norwegian Scum this game

Would you rather lose to Pine?

[NorwegianboyEE]

I think it's pretty clear though, that Pine's scum mate can only really be Ramcius. I do not believe this is scum theatre between FL/Pine. And i'm not really seeing any team that includes TSQ either. So from my POV it's only really Pine/Ram.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I think it's consistent from FL to keep pushing me over TSQ, my point from the beginning has been that the switch from Pine/Ramcius to TSQ is artificial and reminiscent of scum looking for a different mislim to me.

[NorwegianboyEE]

A Norwegian town flip means Pine is always flipped tomorrow, so Ramcius partner could have tried to get the vanilla that I was seeing as his 1v1 faded. This game has always been 1 of Pine/Norwegian with 1 of Ramcius/Status, and Pine/Status is the only pairing I don't think possible of those

Pine/Ramcius
Norwegian/Ramcius
Norwegian/Status

exactly what i've been saying

FL's solve of flip me and then Pine/Ramcius being the only team left is one i can live with if it happens as it get's my solve pushed through in the end. It would only really lose to a potential FL/Ramcius team.

[NorwegianboyEE]

@Misty
I’m still strongly opposed to your idea of using your vengeful shot to make game go back to odd number. Precisely because Pine could very well choose to no kill for WIFOM in the future and claim he blocked a shot in ElO. But that only really works if the game is in odd numbers. If an elimination happens and it’s even numbers then Pine no-killing would give town an extra mislim.
So in the event Pine is scum your idea is actually anti-town and therefore your vote is completely wasted on yourself today as i believe nobody should support it.

[NorwegianboyEE]

i didnt want to discuss my planned target because i wanted to see how people would react to it

but this will get different reactions c:

But @Misty why would we vote for you when you’re very clearly bleeding obvtown here?

to activate my vengeful and get back to odd numbers without having to waste a day voting no elim

We don’t have to waste a day voting no elim. We can just vote Pine.
Maybe i’m missing something here, but why is it so important to have us go back to odd numbers? I won’t fight it if we eliminate Pine either way, but what’s the difference?

[NorwegianboyEE]

I’m reevaluating because pretty much no one in the entire game has ever had you as their top sr. However, scum usually don’t try to tie themselves too closely, so I don’t really see a Pine/Ram team either. One is more likely than not a pocket if there’s scum in that pairing. However, that could be wrong. The fact that you have been pushed as Norwee’s PR partner makes me think that if you flip green, the idea is to clear Norwee. I think irrespective of Norwee’s alignment, FL looks to be set up as a possible miselim after your green flip, assuming you’re town here.

The idea that TSQ flipping green clears me is an argument Ramcius/Pine made, and i've said i do not agree with the wagon on TSQ in any way because my main scumreads are pushing it. Also your claim that FL is being set up as the next elimination on a TSQ flip is something i agree with, and which slots have been pushing for that? Pine/Ramcius again.

[NorwegianboyEE]

However, scum usually don’t try to tie themselves too closely, so I don’t really see a Pine/Ram team either.

Just want to say i disagree on this. I think Pine and Ramciu's play checks of all the checkmarks for scum interactions. I think they've been somewhat subtle but today it would be really important for Ramcius to prevent Pine from being eliminated because it would put the spotlight heavily on him and away from me/TSQ. So he had no choice but to defend Pine here.
More specifically:

Pine fake claims, Ramcius defends their claim.
Ramcius votes with Pine on me.
Pine and Ramcius both start arguing at the same time that TSQ is a better elimination because "he is a likely partner to me" or scum PR, and they don't really have a case.
Pine and Ramcius both at the same time start putting paranoia on FL, which is the best slot for a Pine/Ram team to push tommorow with a TSQ!townflip.
Pine has a strong townread on Ramcius and is suspicious of TSQ even though in reality both slots should probably be null from his POV. I just don't see how his reads make a whole lot of sense and they don't seem justified.
Ramcius has mostly just been going along with what Pine said today, or using arguments that encourage Pine's strategies and does not seem paranoid of Pine whatsoever.

[NorwegianboyEE]

You probably realize a Pine team is much more likely, you just want to believe you have been right this game on me.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I don't wanna hear Pine's case if it's against me tbh

I don't know why you're asking what Pine's case is, either Pine is stalling for more time and it's not even made yet. Or they are working on it right now and trying to make it exactly what you and Nancy want to hear because they don't wanna aggravate you into voting scum!Pine.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Ramcius is next if this flips scum.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I’ve been in an state of depression ever since daystart but i’ll post to state my current thoughts. The flip on Pine made me re-evaluate strongly 3 remaining slots in this game, Flavour Leaf, Ramcius and TSQ. First of all, my read on TSQ was made way too hastily and knowing now that an elimination sequence of me/Pine would be an gamewinning one for scum means slots that were siding with me yesterday are most definitely not cleared as town. Thinking about TSQ's actions so far with the information i now have, i do not find them town indicative. When considering Ramcius i realize that his actions yesterday go against what i now know was the likely scum strategy, to egg on the 1v1 between me and Pine while scum stands on either side. It is this i now see as the reason behind FL turning on Pine yesterday. I think what FL saw is that Pine was starting to consider me being town and thus FL concluded Pine was now becoming a threat that would turn the gamestate away from the Norwee/Pine dichotomy. FL, long story short i do think this Pine flip makes him scum. I’ll elaborate more on it later but i don’t feel like having a long argument with FL right now so i’ll leave my thought process behind this conclusion for later. I will come back at an later time and read the posts that’ve been made, but i don’t feel like responding to anything yet. I just want to see how the beginning of this day plays out without me having much of a say in it and then i’ll get more information that is of actual use to me for when i feel more motivated to actually discuss in real time.

[NorwegianboyEE]

FL is bussing TSQ. I’m the game winning mislim FL lined up for when TSQ flips scum and he points the finger at me.

[NorwegianboyEE]

It’s me VS FL tommorow. Today is easy. Just do TSQ.

[NorwegianboyEE]

FL / TSQ were both just egging the TvT on between me and Pine. It’s pretty obvioys based on Ram’s stance of eliminating TSQ yesterday he is town. FL is the one that makes the most sense as TSQ partner because he’s been trying to tie me to TSQ this whole time when it’d make more sense to say it’s a Ram/Norwee scum team. FL is banking on TSQ scumflip incriminating me because he knew from the beginning TSQ would flip scum.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Ramcius get’s it. Nancy doesn’t. But i have evidence that proves i am much more likely town in this game, i will talk about it tommorow when it’s me VS FL. The safe shot today is to just eliminate TSQ. I’m not going to talk much about Akarin since FL already crumbed heavily he will likely just kill them tonight.

[NorwegianboyEE]

FL is already trying to push the "look where setup spec got us!!!" line because with a Pine townflip it’s pretty clear FL is the scum between FL/Pine, my team just had it wrong because we didn’t expect an ungated protective role.