Infernal Affairs - Game Over!

[MagikHorse]

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VOTE: Not_Mafia

Still the same as always I see.

[MagikHorse]

how is it going galron

Í'm stoked for another town loss.

Why would you want town to lose unless you're scum?

VOTE: Galron

[MagikHorse]

I was about to ask why your I had an accent.

Anyways, let me be the first to quickly ask something about the setup since I haven't really played many closed setups before. When I was reading through the rules, I didn't see anything regarding counts of specific factions. Based on your guys' experience, do you think it's possible there may be a neutral wincon role in this setup?

Could be. Its pooky so i am guessing the chances are slightly negative.....
i don't remember him ever playing that much around with neutrals

Meh, don't really care so much about setup spec unless theyre really heavily known for it or the theme is just perfectly set up for it.

Then again I still haven't watched the source yet so what do I know?

[MagikHorse]

i would like all votes on galron to be transferred to me.

Galron how much selling those votes on urself for?

If you want my vote, stop being so townie.

[MagikHorse]

I don't need free town points.

That much being said this really reminds me of the FireBear hydra Good Luck Buddy, so the requests for self votes feels all too natural coming from you.

[MagikHorse]

It wouldn't be fair to anyone Fire. I have mad Quads energy at the poker table. Seriously, I've ridden 7-2 offsuit and improved from 2 pair to a full house to quads in one hand. I'm clearly too broken for that.

[MagikHorse]

Texas hold 'em, yes, for as relevant as that is to this game.

[MagikHorse]

If only mayoresidents didn't have a tendency to be assassinated.

[MagikHorse]

That's one vote too many on the wagon, VOTE: Tejate Raichu

How many is too many, and why is it here? Any thoughts on the other votes on the Firebringer wagon, or just Tejate?

[MagikHorse]

I don't think he's saying there's an elim risk, but more that he doesn't like the number of votes there? It's why I want to grill him to figure out just why this is too many in his eyes.

[MagikHorse]

Sheeping 76

I think you've quoted the wrong post or something. I was talking about grilling Momo in that post, nothing at all about Tejate.

[MagikHorse]

I don't think he's saying there's an elim risk, but more that he doesn't like the number of votes there? It's why I want to grill him to figure out just why this is too many in his eyes.

My vote was mostly just RVS with a mix of wanting to push the game along (because the Fire wagon wasn't really doing that) but I'm not particularly liking his response.

He shifted from troll-ish (Post 56 & Post 64) to serious (Post 75) after just one vote on him.

Then Post 84 is keeping up the defensiveness while Post 88 and Post 90 seem almost unnecessary - there's no reason to send them unless you're trying to appear agreeable for some reason.

Could just be an overactive, new-ish user with some downtime in the evening - his listed timezone is PST so that makes sense - but benchmarking to the "normal" I don't particularly like it.

I'll keep my vote here.

Why is this shift scummy? Even I was a bit goofy for a little while, giving in to a little bit of the RVS fluff, and became serious around the same time as your vote too. Do you scumread me for doing the same thing?

What do you make of 77?

[MagikHorse]

STD, how is Tejate coming up town to you? I'm perhaps a flummoxed by a single post of theirs, but at best I'm coming up null.

[MagikHorse]

I get the same sincere vibe from them too, though 44 irks me a little bit. If I hadn't talked with Tejate before we signed up and saw him chatting about setups I'd expect it to be +scum equity, but not after seeing that sort of curiosity offsite.

I do like 94 as a response at least, and that's where a lot of that genuine tonality can be found. It's not argumentative, it's simply laying it down as it is and moving on. It's something I've felt before a time or two, and can get behind.

I'm seeing Tejate slightly +town at this point in time overall, but I'll keep an eye there in particular.

[MagikHorse]

Hopefully the former. I'd like a little content with that hello, whether it's a vote or an actual statement about the game.

[MagikHorse]

Fire is a gut thing for me. As long as I avoid onions my gut should hopefully lead me to success on that front, because I'll admit that I suck at reading trolley accounts any other way. I still remember it going terribly wrong with Not_Mafia in one of my old newbies when I tried to actually think him out.

Also welcome to the Galron party CSF. There's complimentary cookies by the door.

[MagikHorse]

That’s a spicy take!!! Sounds like you have a reason for it, and I’d LOVE to hear it

ok ! ! !
let me just share it to u in secret... (i dont want the randos to hear!)

whisper whisper whisper whisper

pretty good right?!?!?

What cause do you have to hide it from the town at this stage of the game?

[MagikHorse]

What cause do you have to hide it from the town at this stage of the game?

going to wickedly dodge this question and say that you are also a Person of Interest so I would like to get to know u better. for examples: how are you doing rn? can you return to your state of mind from when you made this statement?

"Incredulously quizzical of the unusually dodgy" isn't a hard state of mind to return to, especially when said individual is angling towards obfuscating as much as possible to continue to be unusually dodgy. Not_Mafia can testify that I abhor excessive dodginess after Newbie 1860, it just doesn't help anyone sort you at all and gives off the appearance that you feel the need to hide yourself from the thread.

I don't need free town points.

what feelings and thoughts were running through your head? did you think about how it would have been read when you wrote it or did you just think-and-send?

feel free to wickedly dodge these questions back! fair is fair!

You could render my thoughts of the moment in a single sentence: "Why try to look town instead of just

being town?

"

I see no reason to try and force a townread on me when my play should be plenty enough to go by on itself.

[MagikHorse]

Thanks, I guess?

[MagikHorse]

*3rd post

and I don't see why not? Like I'm not saying its a fire-tire panda team or anything just that I don't think Fire "shitposting" and calling for votes on himself is particularly pro-town.

of course, he and others will just wright it off as shitposting and say that scum wouldn't bring that much attention to themselves

but that's how I feel so eh

Firebringer is a shitposting trolley player. One that at least plays the game unlike some, but this behavior is stuff I have seen from them before as town in Anything uPick in the Good Luck Buddy hydra, so it's somewhere between NAI to +town for him.

Meh
VOTE: CSF

Bad vote.

wow 4 posts from DW in less than 20 minutes.. easy there hoss.. Town DW

Is this a meta call or something?

[MagikHorse]

Is this a meta call or something?

indeed at least a town lean for effort so early, rarely will you see that avatar more than twice on a page.

What in any of those posts is "effort"? It's

-a vote with no real explanation
-him backing off as soon as it's questioned by the very player he was supposedly scumreading, all while also placing his vote on a player that seems to be trying to push the game forward early
-a weak excuse of "not reading" to explain his bad vote
-and a one word "yes" answer to a simple question

So, what exactly makes this "effort" (I really struggle to call it that) town-oriented when it really seems so easy to fake and low effort overall?

Even more, why were they scumreading Andante on only the first 5 pages? They kinda ducked that question by claiming their read changed on the 6th.

[MagikHorse]

wow… so spicy!! love it tbh!!!

i feel like im being strongarmed into wanting to townread you from you being likeable

That’s not a bad thing!!! I’m town! Feel free to TR me

@CSF I mean, it’s not a TR I’d die for, just an early gut read I had, consider it a town lean vs lock town read, and I liked the overall energy coming into the game, felt like Fire wasn’t afraid to post/afraid of appearance, was just having fun, breaking the ice, making it super easy for people to make an entrance. That kind of stuff I generally view as townier rather than as scum behaviors

Wait were u really townreading me

I feel like at this point u should know that’s my personality ur town reading not play

This is a possibility, but I also haven't see you rooting around for scumreads as scum yet. Haven't seen any of your scum games though I'll admit.

Could you link me to a scumgame or two of yours?

[MagikHorse]

That’s a spicy take!!! Sounds like you have a reason for it, and I’d LOVE to hear it

ok ! ! !
let me just share it to u in secret... (i dont want the randos to hear!)

whisper whisper whisper whisper

pretty good right?!?!?

wow… so spicy!! love it tbh!!!

i feel like im being strongarmed into wanting to townread you from you being likeable

Low key scumreading hellbrooks here
Or maybe high key
Whichever key is the one that plays best solo

Whichever key you're in, I'll provide the backup vocals for this one.

[MagikHorse]

Like really, 116 could be a personality annoyance thing, but 126 is just all kinds of stinted and doesn't feel very natural.

[MagikHorse]

This was my last scum game
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88484

Okay yeah, Firebringer did do the whole "I'm scum scumread me" thing as actual scum too. Very mild townlean retracted, clearly this is the scummiest of the scums in the universe.

[MagikHorse]

The tone dissonance, yeah first post sounds like hell is messing around with /annoyed sarcasm then the next post sounds not all aligned with that. Especially with previous ones. It’s big mood shifts

i'm gathering evidence! if you act at someone they'll act right back!

That could be said of every interaction, and says nothing at all about the tonal shift.

[MagikHorse]

That could be said of every interaction, and says nothing at all about the tonal shift.

it should be clear that my post was not on-its-face genuine given that it didnt come with an unvote. im still invested in pushing andante but i'm not scumhunting

super

seriously right now because im still identifying people im interested in poking at, i've only meaningfully chatted with a few people, and we're still at a stage where reads change pretty quickly ! did my post stand out to you before or after firebringer brought it up?

A good question. Before, though I didn't mention it immediately so I could try to figure out whether I was blinding myself with some sort of playstyle difference given your tight-lipped start.

[MagikHorse]

Just saying... what exactly? That we shouldn't pressure him for his posts, or how he backed off at the slightest pressure?

[MagikHorse]

Policy lims really don't attract me the way they once did. Just not much information on them, too easy to hide scum following along, and I just really don't see the need for anything like that looking at this game so far.

[MagikHorse]

I don't even need to play it to hear it in my head.

[MagikHorse]

Nah, not interested in chucking out Fire. We'll see his loyalties in good time. Don't know much about Toog short of the fact that he never rolls scum, so I'm fine with sorting him out later.

[MagikHorse]

What about him not wanting to vote Toog or Fire? Is that a reason too?

What do you make of this reluctance to vote there?

[MagikHorse]

prob wrong town hence why TR wants to give you a pass. I'm sure I'm wrong but it just seemed like interesting timing that you said you wouldn't vote Fire and maybe Toog and then TR comes in hard town reading you.

Also, look at Toogs ISO. Like it been a min b4 I played with him and maybe he's normally that fluffy but I'll find that out when I dive a little.

Toog is a bit fluffy, if an actual case shows up or he continues to be 100% fluff I could reconsider there, but I'm not backing down so easily on Fire. There's been a couple posts that just seemed like a page straight out of my mind, and that's hard to just ignore this early in the game. I'm inclined to give that a pass for now.

Pedit: Just what is Keeper doing here?

Do you scumread these two to suggest them so quickly?

[MagikHorse]

How did I get the pedit in the middle? I blame the mobile site.

[MagikHorse]

a lil' yeah. What has fire said was straight outta yer head?

155 and 169 together form a larger block of matching thoughts, which I spoke more about in 196. 197 is another.

So I guess mostly his questioning of Hell.

[MagikHorse]

Andante, their reasoning is already setting off alarm bells in my head. I do not really appreciate this level of straight up ignoring context in order to push a wagon that already has several votes on it.

Alarm bells? cause I don't TR you? lol

Interesting thing to imply that I'm SRing you because you don't TR me. I have absolutely TR'd people that have scumread me, so no this isn't OMGUS. The issue is that I can't see where you are coming from if this is with a town mindset. Your posts do not smell of wrongtown, they smell of scum making their first push of the game on a viable looking wagon.

Can you point me to a couple posts that give you this sort of feeling?

[MagikHorse]

280, feels very much like they're searching for reasons to hop onto my wagon where they don't realistically need that many. As if they're trying to build a strong case against me so they can push me as the main wagon later in the day.

287, subtle shade without actually trying to engage my slot. I don't think asking for thoughts on other players is very unusual or particularly scummy, but the way it's phrased in this post just has some ineffable bad energy about it for me. It feels agenda driven rather than earnest.

If they were trying to set up a wagon for later, why start pushing you now instead of, you know, later? If it was just shade I could maybe see it being a setup for future use, but not when they throw their vote down so quickly and then continue to push it through. That narrative doesn't fit so well.

The shade in 287 is pretty bad though. Does Andante have utterly no thoughts on me to write off the idea so quickly? (the answer is no, he admits to "liking my lines" in 294.) It's rather self evident that they took the whole "day pass" thing as scummier than most others, and maybe I've got a little bit of a bias here, but it really feels like he stuck to the surface level and doesn't believe that anyone else could read me as more town than he thinks, or at least not enough to look past me for a little while?

I dunno, the motivations here are murky.

[MagikHorse]

Like, if Andante has an agenda, I don't think "he's saving me to kill later" is it.

[MagikHorse]

*She

Sorry.

[MagikHorse]

Are you saying you should be townread Tejate? If you're not I don't see why you're complaining about them pushing you to learn more.

[MagikHorse]

Honestly, I don't like either side of that 1 for 1 between Tejate and Andante the longer I look at it. Too many assumptions, doesn't really seem much like either was reading the other well.

No, saving people for later in a large game is not that suspect. Feels like an overreaction at best.
No, I don't think Tejate was scumreading Andante for "not townreading him". That assumption is just plain bad.

Yes, I do think ducking away to "avoid lolhammers" was very weak and scummy reasoning. There were nowhere near enough votes for that concern from Tejate.
No, I don't think poking Hellbooks for information about Tejate is a bad thing. Feels like reading way too deep into nothing, and I buy Andante's response to that point.

Hard to say which looks worse.

[MagikHorse]

Toog, do you plan on doing something other than merely fluffposting?

[MagikHorse]

VOTE: Magikhorse is one scum and my pick for the partner is

Tejate

.

Quite the spicy take, but do you have any reasoning at all behind it? A naked vote really doesn't help me figure you out that well.

[MagikHorse]

Honestly, I don't like either side of that 1 for 1 between Tejate and Andante the longer I look at it. Too many assumptions, doesn't really seem much like either was reading the other well.

No, saving people for later in a large game is not that suspect. Feels like an overreaction at best.
No, I don't think Tejate was scumreading Andante for "not townreading him". That assumption is just plain bad.

Yes, I do think ducking away to "avoid lolhammers" was very weak and scummy reasoning. There were nowhere near enough votes for that concern from Tejate.
No, I don't think poking Hellbooks for information about Tejate is a bad thing. Feels like reading way too deep into nothing, and I buy Andante's response to that point.

Hard to say which looks worse.

How do I even look bad from that? I think it's terrible to go "X gets a d1 and d2 pass" LESS THAN 24 HOURS into the start of a game. especially a giant game. Like, sure ok say "I'll sort X later" but by saying you're giving X a pass, it's like, "I'm not even going to attempt to read you till later" which doesn't feel like pro town to me at all. I know we all have people we wait till later to sort, but I'll at least make an effort to read them. no one gets a full 2 game days pass... no one

Ignoring Innocent Child roles and other mechanical reasons (e.g. Night 0 cop checks) to confirm a town early, some people can be read really easily by the effort which they push the game from a standstill, or through meta reasoning. Tejate seems to believe that it's far more likely that my attempts to get the ball rolling are from town than scum (assuming I'm reading his posts correctly), and though he's hesitant to townbin me too early in fear of me just being a ridiculously strong scum with an amazing opening (A presumption here, but I have seen this sort of thing turn on people too when an early townread turns out to be more manipulative late) decided I wasn't worth looking into so early. Could be he simply thinks I look town enough for now that he doesn't want to spend his time looking deep into a fairly active poster he believes got a strong town start until there's more evidence? Sems the most likelt scenario in my eyes, seconded only by a scum pocketing attempt.

Mostly though it seems bad that you can't tell that it's a difference of opinion and keep pushing it like absolutely everyone has to play the exact same way, or that nobody can set a player aside so early. At best that's a bit self-centered, at worst it's attempting to undermine the early townleans on me and keep me closer to the lim pool.

It also ignores that Tejate later said that I had to at least maintain some of my current behavior to remain in this state, and that it wasn't going to exclude me from attention should I start to behave more strangely, which kind of leads me to believe that it really is just a fancy "I'll look at you later" line that's being taken far more strictly by you than them.

[MagikHorse]

STD is STD..

Playstyle is 100% NIA.

What is AI from them then, if I take this as truth?

[MagikHorse]

BTW I've played against town!Andante in rapid games as both alignments and she has good intuition; her early reads are likely to outperform what we can expect based on random chance.

I've played against scum!MagikHorse once before in a newbie game and they fooled everyone.

I've only had three scumgames on this site. One of them I got I'll and replaced out halfway through D1 after coming under fire. Another was a rapid game over the course of 2 hours or so where I was scum with Fire and was the second largest wagon. The third my mafia buddy got elimned D1 and I surrendered Day 2 because I was jailkept and mechanically screwed. The only game you can be talking about is the latter, and I don't have time to check that game out from work to refresh my memory.

Still, what about my play this game tells you that I'm a well playing scum instead of a well playing town? There has to be something that pings you, unless you're just fearmongering?

[MagikHorse]

Imagine wanting to eliminate someone because you are scared of their scum game...

And with pre-flip associatives too. What's that all about?

[MagikHorse]

Okay? You've pointed to a game where you read me well once. What likens me in this game to that one beyond "playing well"?

Like, that's so far the only "evidence" you've pulled up on me, that I can play scum well. Why does that make me scum here?

[MagikHorse]

I don't like meta as a major part of a case, and this case against me so far is exactly that. It's just "I think I can read him" with no meat on those bones so far. What am I supposed to respond to here?

[MagikHorse]

Already there.

[MagikHorse]

VOTE: Tejate Raichu

Surprising vote. I'm townleaning Tejate right now, and I feel like usually our reads are similar when we're both town.

Another was a rapid game over the course of 2 hours or so where I was scum with Fire and was the second largest wagon.

I was in this game on my other account! I actually correctly scumread you there.

Can you explain your Tejate read? They're a player that's just generally confusing me after that 1v1.

Small world too. Glad Fire had it in him that game to win it, because I was just unable to keep up with that many pages that quickly.

[MagikHorse]

additionally, i dont like this

reads to me like "i dont want to be yelled at for not having a case but im also anxious about posting a case"

I'll at least give him the chance to say something worthwhile there.

[MagikHorse]

Magik what game r u talking about? i literally don't remember playing with u

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=76726 back in July 2018.

[MagikHorse]

To be fair it's an older game in the Marathon forum and wasn't super memorable to me either, short of getting carried by you as my scumbuddy and getting overwhelmed by the game speed.

[MagikHorse]

Imagine wanting to eliminate someone because you are scared of their scum game...

Imagine getting game over'd just because people are caught in a Curse of Darkness.
Happens to me far too often.
Too busy reading the gimmick, and not what I'm actually saying usually...

To be fair I haven't played the game and trying to understand half of what your saying is difficult. The other half is all context clue driven. Still makes it a pain, and I don't want to go through the hasslt of asking what you mean every single time (such as with posts like this one).

[MagikHorse]

By "the game" I mean the Isaac franchise, I really don't know what is what there.

[MagikHorse]

I don't think merely being a gimmick alt playing like a gimmick alt is really unusual? Sure, +scum points for the general lack of content, but if content is really what you're worried about they have been responding to questions so why not ask them what they think about a few things to try and pull some out?

They also said they do plan to do some solving in 214, so I don't even get why you claim they said they didn't intent to play the game.

[MagikHorse]

Tejate, do you have any reads you'd commit to at all? Like hot dang, you're being super noncommittal all over the place.

[MagikHorse]

though I find this Nero thing a bit weird

Why?

Have you never felt like someone was scummy AF for voting LHF?

What does "LHF" mean?

[MagikHorse]

Ummm what?
This isn't even Nero being aggro. This is one of those things im still looking at nero funny at

It's not like a locktown read or anything, but the last two pages certainly have me leaning that way though

Is an aggressive Nero usually a town Nero?

[MagikHorse]

Scorpius is relaxed, that's for certain. What sort of confusion were you seeing though?

Also sort of against their "I'm down to policy elim" post too, partially on principle partially because there really wasn't any reason to bring it up that early in the day. Kinda feels like planting the seed in our heads.

[MagikHorse]

I don't get the same vibes you do looking closer at that. It's not even close to being hard to fake, and many of those questions were fairly basic "what does this mean" sorts of asks. Then we get to the cantina music thing and it just becomes fluff for a while.

Did anything from that section stand out more than just "he asked a few simple questions"?

[MagikHorse]

@Tejate

Forgot to quote the post, bleh.

[MagikHorse]

Tejate and I first met because we watch the same Town of Salem streamer, Pipetron, and were both in his Discord chat. I'm decently familiar with the terminology because of that, though lately I've been scrolling Surv and Pirate in ToS. Pirate is fun.

In fact, we mutually agreed to join this game on the Pipetron Discord. Doesn't mean I'm not gonna look at him the same as any other player or pull any punches, and as per the site rules all game related chat will be in the main game thread as normal.

[MagikHorse]

I don't see the points against Fire. If anything I'd believe him to be a player that's easier to read later down the line anyways.

[MagikHorse]

Have I said I think CSF is town yet?

Because I think CSF is town.

[MagikHorse]

Will take a closer look at a couple people in a moment, especially Nero, Fire, and right now I need to get my back examined because holy hell my tailbone feels like it's gonna split my body in half. This is not how I wanted to wake up.

Do want to see what Galron has to say about Toog claiming Reverse Traitor only 2 posts after he said it was unlikely though. What sort of thoughts are going on there?

[MagikHorse]

So, seems like a strained my back, now that all the doctor business is done. Catching up now while I wait for the pharmacy.

[MagikHorse]

Ok, even if I just go with your first sentence. You like that Tejate wrote you off as "likely not maf" in 24 hours? like, that's my entire issue with this, nothing actually game related happened, it's essentially just "you post a lot. I'll read you later" like, why say that? why not interact with someone that talks a lot? like, if all your effort/enthusiasm is why Tejate isn't reading you till later... why have I not seen Tejate interact with you at all, like, not even using you to help get reads. I'm a little suspicious of why I'm suddenly the bad guy for "not declaring you're off the table" like, sure in all likelihood I'm not yeeting you day 1 or day 2, but that doesn't mean I declare that then stop interacting with you, like, this equation is not adding up.
> Mostly though it seems bad that you can't tell that it's a difference of opinion and keep pushing it like absolutely everyone has to play the exact same way
Uhhh I'm not keeping pushing anything? I read, I gave thoughts on the posts I read, yall are the people who keep bringing up this 1 instance, like do you think I'm not aware we've approached this game differently?
This whole post just seems way too defensive for me just going "lol idk how I look bad"

He was going "Magik is pushing us up to an informed state out of an uninformed state really hard early", not so much just "Magik's posting a lot" (which I think seems to be more Scorpius' schtick). There's more to Tejate's "pass" than just postcount, which is generally why it doesn't bother me. If it was solely off of activity alone I'd be more concerned, activity is a really easy thing to fake, but we're not in that world. Given the reason of "pushing the game into a more informed state really quickly from the start", yes, I am fine with holding off on that person for a little while at the least. Yes, this would apply even if the person they said it about wasn't me, though I'd question it if I didn't feel the reason applied or if I had other concerns about the person to dig in deeper.

And you're sure I'm not just misreading you either regarding the second line? It certainly looked like more like you were pushing him as scummy over it to me in the heat of the moment, though I'll take a look back at that later to see if I still see that in there.

I don't get why you're complaining about me defending myself either, not when you're asking me to defend myself. You asked, I answered to the best of my abilities. I'm starting to think you're probably town, but man are you reading a lot more into things than I'm putting in and missing quite a bit else.

And lets face it, you've hardly generated much content yourself, have you..?

nice deflect

that's irrelevant (and i'd argue untrue)

Your basis is my lack of content.
The same is true for you.

It's about as relevant as collecting consumables.

I don't have the means to deflect, and I'd hardly call returning your call out a deflection.

Its not my fault you decided to come at me armed with My Reflection.

Keeper... Don't even try to argue that you've had content thus far... you dont

This is a good shout though.

[MagikHorse]

Too busy reading the gimmick

You can not blame us for not reading a word you say when like 1/25 of your posts even feel game related. Like, what is your goal here? Who do you want to send to the darkness or whatever? Who's from the dark side? Cause you're NOT playing this game... you're just "oh not my fault no one reads me"

Also ur posting is like literally not cogent to understand a mindset which is even worse than using a gimmick, because ur making this a guessing game of what the hell r u trying to say or get at with ur posts.

But gimmick usage to hide intentions is good enough for a good push.

I have an easy solution... just don't read a word keeper says lol

dude, they are a hardclaimed gimmick alt. It's not that they are "hiding" its just this alts gimmick play and those have always been around and you know it. This "overusing gimmicks is a scumtell" is very black and white.

DIE U SITH LORD

Using a gimmick doesn't make them town? In fact, the amount of times Keeper has gone "yall don't like my gimmick" has been way too many already to be town I think

Aren't I?
We're in Basement 1. The only thing we know so far is the item room and the shop is open, and we can make a good guess on the secret rooms.
We don't know what boss we have, we don't know if we're going to win or lose this.
We gather information, we gather consumables, we prepare for the lower floors.

Not reading what I say is nothing new to me.
Fact is I always Game Over.
Because Im an easy scum push. Claim I'm unreadable, or change my context and my meaning.
It's amusing.
I solve well on my Ascent as a result.
Problem is when the right items come to me, say Magic Fingers, and Deep Pockets...

The scum team should be scared.

And as for my responses to those hating on me... well the hate is quite clear.
I'm not going to stop gimmicking.
If anything your hate drives me forward
And I will respond to every bit of hatred that comes my way.

This reads like town annoyance to me.

[MagikHorse]

keeper, what do you think of tejate

I need to borrow Bob's Brain for this one, I am inclined to think they're aiming for The Dark room instead of The Cathedral for now, though.

scumlean.

uh if you have a scumlean somewhere, why are you still voting for yourself?

Charons Obel.
Two coins.
Two votes.

I have no clue what this means. Please explain.

[MagikHorse]

Frogster is present elsewhere but not here.

I'll have to double check on this. If so, it's definitely scum indicative.

[MagikHorse]

I'm thinking Galron + Frogster at this point for the two most likely scum. I did check, Frogster is indeed posting in another game at the moment.

If Frogster doesn't case me the moment he gets back it's basically a scumclaim. If 367 is the entirety of his case and that's it, pure paranoia over me being "a good scum player", even more of a scumclaim.

[MagikHorse]

I'm thinking Galron + Frogster at this point for the two most likely scum. I did check, Frogster is indeed posting in another game at the moment.

Isn’t there some sort of “gentleman’s agreement” to not use site mechanics?

There's a gentleman's rule not to judge people based off of IRL things. If someone says "I hurt my tailbone, give me a while to go to the doctor" like I did today, nobody should really argue with that, it's more than likely true regardless of alignment. In general anything related to real life should be considered as undeniable truth, and inevitably people will prioritize their life over the game.

The "Ellitell" (as it's called when a player is active in other games and ignores another) is a lot more arguable, and I'm not sure if there's an actual consensus regarding whether it counts as talking about other ongoing games or not. It's still a meta tell at any rate, and like other meta reasonings should have other support to go with it (and others have indeed given these explanations already on why their behavior was otherwise suspect).

This Ellitell is just the icing, the cake is already on the plate here.

[MagikHorse]

I've played multiple games from time to time, and I think it's unfair to judge someone based on differing activity between games. The other commitments might have the player more vested in the current game state, or require their time over other commitments. I myself can't multitask for shit, so sometimes I'll make sacrifices in time if a game doesn't require my immediate presence.

That being said, I think we can weigh in on frog's content here just fine without worry of their presence elsewhere. It's not like they have similar post content to someone like Frozen Angel. It is Day 1, early game still as a matter of fact, and it shouldn't really be concerning yet the amount of content any one player has produced yet.

Maybe, though I still find it rather concerning that they said they had so much of it done already (363) and then hasn't done much since. This is the heart that concerns me more.

pedit: Tejate reading my mind or something.

[MagikHorse]

Like really, the only thing they've said towards me being scum so far has been

- They read me right in one game nearly 2 years ago
- I'm a "good scum player"

Even if I ignore the Ellitell, this is just bad reasoning all around. If anything it feels like a Town of Salem Executioner play.

[MagikHorse]

Keeper what r u reads on me and nero

Nero seeks to Deal with Angels.
You I'm not so sure on. I suspect you're trying to get to the Angels through Sacrifice.

can someone translate

I think it means he townreads NEro, and thinks you may be town but are doing it weirdly? I dunno, the latter line is harder to read than the forner.

[MagikHorse]

keeper, what do you think of tejate

I need to borrow Bob's Brain for this one, I am inclined to think they're aiming for The Dark room instead of The Cathedral for now, though.

scumlean.

uh if you have a scumlean somewhere, why are you still voting for yourself?

Charons Obel.
Two coins.
Two votes.

(Sorry, i don't get it)

Charons Obel was a coin placed in the mouth of a deceased family member or friend to ensure they could pay The Ferryman, Charon to take them across the River Styx to the underworld where they would be safe. This was corrupted somewhat and became a coin over each eye. One to pay the Ferryman, one for good fortune.

First vote, I pay the ferryman.
Second Vote, I hope my fortune is good.

So... you're not going to make your second vote until you think your chances are good, and that you'll lock your vote in at that point? Am I reading this right?

Feels like it could be used a lot better to generate some pressure if nothing else, and I don't see why you'd limit yourself like that.

[MagikHorse]

its just a bus

Why are you thinking it's a bus over a townie that believes the case?

[MagikHorse]

Andante is definitely a player's that's improved over time. The start of the game was really fluffy and weak, but he's grown into a more solve-focused role. Definitely want to see more of this, the same way I want Toog to push a bit more.

Hell is drawing more attention from me. That ISO is not very impressive to say the least. Same with Rat's ISO. Don't know why these two are N_M's top town reads. Just what exactly is he seeing in those two?

I do agree with his scumread on Dwlee though, it's another generally unimpressive ISO that's not putting in much effort to try and solve or garner information.

Now time to take a nap. Some of the pain meds I'm on are knocking me out hard, and making it a bit hard to stay awake.

[MagikHorse]

Do you honestly feel NM’s reads are real? He’s got himself as his scummiest read.DWlee’s iso is always garbage. It’s their playstyle.
And Adante is a “she”.

Not_Mafia is a shitposter type. Putting themselves as the scummiest isn't that unusual as far as I know.

And sorry Andante, I blame drowsiness.

[MagikHorse]

I'm gonna be V/LA for two days

, the meds I'm on are just wiping me out.

[MagikHorse]

I see the case on me, will try to respond to it if I can stay awake long enough. It will be big though, and this case doesn't particularly seem good at first glance at all.

[MagikHorse]

I'll start here, because this is a whole lot of meta nonsense that is being sorely misread.

I was about to ask why your I had an accent.

Anyways, let me be the first to quickly ask something about the setup since I haven't really played many closed setups before. When I was reading through the rules, I didn't see anything regarding counts of specific factions. Based on your guys' experience, do you think it's possible there may be a neutral wincon role in this setup?

Could be. Its pooky so i am guessing the chances are slightly negative.....
i don't remember him ever playing that much around with neutrals

Meh, don't really care so much about setup spec unless theyre really heavily known for it or the theme is just perfectly set up for it.

Then again I still haven't watched the source yet so what do I know?

I don't believe #50 is an accurate rep of how Magik approaches this game. This is a quote of scum!Magik from page 1 of the scum PT in the game I played against him:

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=83964&p=12050979#p12050979

Spoiler:

To figure out what is a good claim or a bad claim, we have to consider the scenarios we have and what the Town thinks is possible. For Friendly Neighbor... no, that really doesn't work well when you think of it. Let's look at this by what happens based on which actual grid space we're in.

Friendly Neighbor Claim:
- 1B: Counterclaimed by Friendly Neighbor. Outs a low power role that would confirm itself Night 1 anyways.
- 2B: Counterclaimed by Friendly Neighbor. Outs a low power role that would confirm itself Night 1 anyways.
- 3B: Counterclaimed by Doctor. Outs a high power protective role.
- Overall: It's 100% guaranteed to be a sacrifice play to out a PR, but the Doctor is the only role here powerful enough to be concerning. Friendly Neighbor does nothing but self-confirm that they're town, and they're gonna do that anyways over the first night. It's not worth sacrificing a Mafioso to take them out at all, so it's a 33% chance of a good outcome.

Tracker Claim:
- 1B: Counterclaimed by Tracker. Outs a high power role.
- 2B: Not CC'd. Jailkeeper assumes 2A, Friendly Neighbor assumes 1B.
- 3B: Counterclaimed by Tracker. Outs a high power investigative role, with a Doctor alive for their protection overnight. Turns into Follow the Cop.
- Overall: It's a decent enough claim here, as killing the Tracker is extremely good in 1B, but... that risk is pretty high for 3B which lets the Tracker run wild until they either find the last Mafia or we kill their Doctor and then them. It's two good scenarios and one utterly disastrous one that could downright end our game right there and then. Also a better claim for me than you, as me dying as a Mafia Rolecop immediately tips off to a Jailkeep that you're a dirty liar as it proves we can't be in the A column, which means you're basically dead claiming this the moment I die.

Jailkeeper Claim:
- 1B: Not CC'd. Tracker assumes 2A, Friendly Neighbor assumes 2B.
- 2B: Counterclaimed by Jailkeeper. Outs one of the strongest power roles in the game.
- 3B: Counterclaimed by Doctor. Outs a high power protective role.
- Overall: This is actually a far better claim outright compared to Friendly Neighbor, in that it either keeps you alive through the first day entirely or outs the more powerful role from 2B and 3B. Of course the Jailkeeper could block the remaining Mafia indefinitely with some luck (which has been my fate once), but otherwise one of the best claims we have and also confirms our setup completely and entirely, though in 1B they will eventually figure out the lie if the Friendly Neighbor confirms (but that only outs the Tracker in kind).

Doctor Claim:
- 1B: Counterclaimed by Friendly Neighbor. Outs a low power role that would confirm itself Night 1 anyways.
- 2B: Counterclaimed by either Jailkeeper of Friendly Neighbor, whichever posts first. Really flip-floppey results.
- 3B: Counterclaimed by Doctor. Outs a high power protective role.
- Overall: Straight worse than a Jailkeeper claim to be honest. I don't see the pull to this.

Cop Claim:
- 1B: Counterclaimed by either Tracker or Friendly Neighbor, whichever posts first. Really flip-floppey results.
- 2B: Counterclaimed by either Jailkeeper of Friendly Neighbor, whichever posts first. Really flip-floppey results.
- 3B: Counterclaimed by Tracker. Outs a high power investigative role, with a Doctor alive for their protection overnight. Turns into Follow the Cop.
- Overall: No... Just no.

Mason Claim:
- Any: Counterclaimed by any PR, whichever posts first.
- Overall: This is suicide. Never claim Mason.

Vanilla Town Claim:
- Any: Nobody cares.
- Overall: Town will often eliminate VT claims unless they super town it up with their claim, and it means we don't out any PRs. Unless it feels like the pressure is waning, there's no real reason not to go PR fishing with a claim so we get something out of that death.

Overall our best claim for Day 1 is surely Jailkeeper. Either we out the biggest town defensive roles, or we slide under the radar with that claim until either a PR dies or the Friendly Neighbor confirms to the other PR, and even then we're still outing PRs through that. If we must sacrifice ourselves for a PR, this is the way to do it.

Keep in mind that this changes as time goes on too. Day 1 this is true for our column, but once a PR is revealed somehow claiming any PR at all will earn a counterclaim and turn into a sacrifice play or a 1v1 fight, so VT claims might be better past Day 1.

In some posts from this thread even Magik shows an interest and knowledge in mechanics and setup spec:

Spoiler:

Honestly, I don't like either side of that 1 for 1 between Tejate and Andante the longer I look at it. Too many assumptions, doesn't really seem much like either was reading the other well.

No, saving people for later in a large game is not that suspect. Feels like an overreaction at best.
No, I don't think Tejate was scumreading Andante for "not townreading him". That assumption is just plain bad.

Yes, I do think ducking away to "avoid lolhammers" was very weak and scummy reasoning. There were nowhere near enough votes for that concern from Tejate.
No, I don't think poking Hellbooks for information about Tejate is a bad thing. Feels like reading way too deep into nothing, and I buy Andante's response to that point.

Hard to say which looks worse.

How do I even look bad from that? I think it's terrible to go "X gets a d1 and d2 pass" LESS THAN 24 HOURS into the start of a game. especially a giant game. Like, sure ok say "I'll sort X later" but by saying you're giving X a pass, it's like, "I'm not even going to attempt to read you till later" which doesn't feel like pro town to me at all. I know we all have people we wait till later to sort, but I'll at least make an effort to read them. no one gets a full 2 game days pass... no one

Ignoring Innocent Child roles and other mechanical reasons (e.g. Night 0 cop checks) to confirm a town early, some people can be read really easily by the effort which they push the game from a standstill, or through meta reasoning. Tejate seems to believe that it's far more likely that my attempts to get the ball rolling are from town than scum (assuming I'm reading his posts correctly), and though he's hesitant to townbin me too early in fear of me just being a ridiculously strong scum with an amazing opening (A presumption here, but I have seen this sort of thing turn on people too when an early townread turns out to be more manipulative late) decided I wasn't worth looking into so early. Could be he simply thinks I look town enough for now that he doesn't want to spend his time looking deep into a fairly active poster he believes got a strong town start until there's more evidence? Sems the most likelt scenario in my eyes, seconded only by a scum pocketing attempt.

Mostly though it seems bad that you can't tell that it's a difference of opinion and keep pushing it like absolutely everyone has to play the exact same way, or that nobody can set a player aside so early. At best that's a bit self-centered, at worst it's attempting to undermine the early townleans on me and keep me closer to the lim pool.

It also ignores that Tejate later said that I had to at least maintain some of my current behavior to remain in this state, and that it wasn't going to exclude me from attention should I start to behave more strangely, which kind of leads me to believe that it really is just a fancy "I'll look at you later" line that's being taken far more strictly by you than them.

Like really, the only thing they've said towards me being scum so far has been

- They read me right in one game nearly 2 years ago
- I'm a "good scum player"

Even if I ignore the Ellitell, this is just bad reasoning all around. If anything it feels like a Town of Salem Executioner play.

Magik has the best chance of flipping scum at this table and I want to flip the slot D1.

Here's a few questions for you:

- How do you know I play every scumgame mech heavy? Just because I did it once?
- How do you know it's not due to the differences between a closed setup and the semi-open Newbie queue?
- Could I have focused harder on mech to help a newbie understand the game better in that other game, but don't feel the need to do so in a game full of more experienced players?
- How do you know I even play the same way I used to after over a year and a half of not playing on the forum at all?
- If I have shown great enthusiasm about discussing setup spec as scum as you claim I do, why would I shy away from it here?
- In neither 352 or 603 do I claim such roles exist, or that they should exist. In both cases they are used as examples, and nothing more, and you're taking both of them out of context to push this angle on me.
-- In 352 it's the form of the few examples that came into my head on why someone would be 100% confirmed town on the first day of the game. Neither is setup speculation in the slightest.
-- 603 is more likely a result of playing too much Town of Salem lately (Which, hey, I've gotten into thanks to Pipetron which is where I met Tejate to begin with). Early claims of suspicion from nowhere on the first available day is the ToS Executioner's bread and butter, and a common strategy to the point where some Day 1 guilties will flat out be ignored in fear of buying into an Executioner play. Once again it's an example, and one that only loosely links to forum based MAfia or this game at all.

In short this entire post is all based on a likely outdated meta (people change as they grow, and I've been doing little playing and a lot of reading that could easily change how I look at things. Hell, I started off with such a bang only because of this sort of reading), poorly made assumptions, and reading example scenarios as though they were setup spec. None of this post is accurate in the slightest, and I don't like how you assume you know me this well when it's grown obvious to me that you don't.

[MagikHorse]

Okay so I have a mess of four cases now, my original unfinished Magik scum case, a second Magik scum case I started working on after Magik's reaction to my push, the unfinished scum case for TR and the unfinished case showing the partner tells between Magik and TR. I need to get something out here so I tried combining the first and second case not allowing myself to start any more cases until I got something posted. That became a mess too so I'm posting this as it is.

Magik scum pinged me early on in this game at 50 when they chose to waffle out of the setup spec, which is not something I expect from town!Magik. Am I allowed to link to the scum PTs of already completed games? If so I can show why I think Town!Magik is less likely to skip out on the setup spec.

See my previous post for the answer to this, since you went more in-depth there. Truth of the matter is what you're calling "setup spec" in my posts isn't setup spec at all, and in general I don't care for openly discussing setup spec without a baseline for it and shot it down for that reason. One thing to speculate if you know a role in a semi-open setup (as you do with the scum or any town PR in a Newbie game, they can narrow down the setups a lot faster), another in a Pooky game when I have no idea what sort of roles fit the theme of the game or what sort of roles Pooky is likely to add in, and I find no reason to discuss that on Day 1.

In a similar vein, worrying about third parties is something that feels more likely to come from scum over town since they are effectively a second killer in play that could target the Mafia, and it's only because of earlier out of game chatter with Tejate that I ignored what would otherwise be a scumtell. If it's something they were questioning without even being in a game at all, I can see them bringing it in as curious town as well, and thus don't think it fair to call it a scumtell that way.

*

Magik scum case #2 Another example here in 603 Magik reacts to my push and while distracted (out of character) starts guessing roles and showing knowledge of abstract setup mechanics. Something they are not doing in the game thread because I think they are posting their setup spec in the scum PT.

As I just mentioned above, this was more a result of me playing too much Town of Salem lately, and was never meant to insinuate that such a role existed in the game.

Then 52 and 60 stood out to me as being tonally off in a LAMIST way like Magik felt pressure about not appearing townie enough.

Why would I be worried about my appearance so early when nobody is stating anything against me at that point of the game? Pressure on me simply didn't exist for this sort of conclusion to be reasonable.

These are all just early things which made me very weary of Magik, the parts that really made me believe Magik is scum started happening next:

74, 76 After skipping out on the setup spec Magik starts waffling hard with defining his relationship with the TJ slot. It seems immediately clear there is some tension from Magik with regards to aggression toward the TJ slot, and as this goes on in the upcoming posts it appears that Magik feels stuck choosing whether or not to bus the TJ slot, which is why Magik's upcoming reads on TJ are so wishy wshy and have weird energy. I think it's weird that Magik is uncomfortable about this early wagon forming when they also didn't want to participate in the setup spec; what are they hoping to accomplish for town with all those early posts if they don't want early wagons and they don't want to try and solve the setup?

Consider this: I joined this game with Tejate, and Tejate only joined this game because I did (I can provide the Discord logs to prove as much if you desire). It's clear we have a bit of a relationship outside the game through how we joined. Is it not possible that I'm feeling discomfort there because I joined this game to play with a friend? Hell, for as much as I said I don't want it to affect my play it's possible, perhaps even likely, that it will affect me in subtle and subconscious ways. Have you taken any of that into consideration? Probably not.

Coming to respond to everything in the quote walls in another post, since trying to work them in this post is a bit tricky due to the spoiler tags.

[MagikHorse]

Magik using early thread activity to push/shade easy mislim slots:

I don't think he's saying there's an elim risk, but more that he doesn't like the number of votes there? It's why I want to grill him to figure out just why this is too many in his eyes.

My vote was mostly just RVS with a mix of wanting to push the game along (because the Fire wagon wasn't really doing that) but I'm not particularly liking his response.

He shifted from troll-ish (Post 56 & Post 64) to serious (Post 75) after just one vote on him.

Then Post 84 is keeping up the defensiveness while Post 88 and Post 90 seem almost unnecessary - there's no reason to send them unless you're trying to appear agreeable for some reason.

Could just be an overactive, new-ish user with some downtime in the evening - his listed timezone is PST so that makes sense - but benchmarking to the "normal" I don't particularly like it.

I'll keep my vote here.

Why is this shift scummy? Even I was a bit goofy for a little while, giving in to a little bit of the RVS fluff, and became serious around the same time as your vote too. Do you scumread me for doing the same thing?

What do you make of 77?

Momo is the easiest mislim target in the world, watch out for slots that try to mix it up with him early like Magik is doing here.

Wanting information from someone doesn't necessarily mean I'm "shading them", and this entire line was trying to figure out his thought patterns. If anything you're shading me for... trying to figure someone out? Isn't that kind of what you're supposed to do?

Hell, I think Momo's probably town from his responses. Thought I mentioned it earlier, turns out I hadn't.

That’s a spicy take!!! Sounds like you have a reason for it, and I’d LOVE to hear it

ok ! ! !
let me just share it to u in secret... (i dont want the randos to hear!)

whisper whisper whisper whisper

pretty good right?!?!?

What cause do you have to hide it from the town at this stage of the game?

What cause do you have to hide it from the town at this stage of the game?

going to wickedly dodge this question and say that you are also a Person of Interest so I would like to get to know u better. for examples: how are you doing rn? can you return to your state of mind from when you made this statement?

"Incredulously quizzical of the unusually dodgy" isn't a hard state of mind to return to, especially when said individual is angling towards obfuscating as much as possible to continue to be unusually dodgy. Not_Mafia can testify that I abhor excessive dodginess after Newbie 1860, it just doesn't help anyone sort you at all and gives off the appearance that you feel the need to hide yourself from the thread.

I don't need free town points.

what feelings and thoughts were running through your head? did you think about how it would have been read when you wrote it or did you just think-and-send?

feel free to wickedly dodge these questions back! fair is fair!

You could render my thoughts of the moment in a single sentence: "Why try to look town instead of just

being town?

"

I see no reason to try and force a townread on me when my play should be plenty enough to go by on itself.

I have in my notes that the comment in 133 about just being town is really bad shade, implying hellBooks didn't understand because they aren't thinking in that way.

Nowhere did I say or insinuate that was the case, not as far as I can see? Hell, why can't this just be a valid answer to that question, or a thought going through my head? Feel like you're reading in a motivation in this post that simply does not and never did exist.

Magik tries to bail out of the hellBooks push later by the way:

That could be said of every interaction, and says nothing at all about the tonal shift.

it should be clear that my post was not on-its-face genuine given that it didnt come with an unvote. im still invested in pushing andante but i'm not scumhunting

super

seriously right now because im still identifying people im interested in poking at, i've only meaningfully chatted with a few people, and we're still at a stage where reads change pretty quickly ! did my post stand out to you before or after firebringer brought it up?

A good question. Before, though I didn't mention it immediately so I could try to figure out whether I was blinding myself with some sort of playstyle difference given your tight-lipped start.

Qualifying himself here in 196, Magik afraid of how he is perceived by the hellBooks slot.

What in this post says anything about me wanting Hellbooks to read me as town?

Magic waffling (esp around TR), fence sitting and shading others

I get the same sincere vibe from them too, though 44 irks me a little bit. If I hadn't talked with Tejate before we signed up and saw him chatting about setups I'd expect it to be +scum equity, but not after seeing that sort of curiosity offsite.

I do like 94 as a response at least, and that's where a lot of that genuine tonality can be found. It's not argumentative, it's simply laying it down as it is and moving on. It's something I've felt before a time or two, and can get behind.

I'm seeing Tejate slightly +town at this point in time overall, but I'll keep an eye there in particular.

Fire is a gut thing for me. As long as I avoid onions my gut should hopefully lead me to success on that front, because I'll admit that I suck at reading trolley accounts any other way. I still remember it going terribly wrong with Not_Mafia in one of my old newbies when I tried to actually think him out.

Also welcome to the Galron party CSF. There's complimentary cookies by the door.

More excuses for waffling in 114 and 106. I read Magik as stalling here and waiting to see the most convenient wagon to park a vote on unsure if he should go for a bus yet on TR.

Saying I have a town gut read is the opposite of waffling, it's saying I have a town read I can't explain well. That's the opposite of waffling. 106 I already gave my reasoning for, at least twice now, due to out of game events that lead me to believe that it's possible, if not likely, for that to come from town!Tejate. You didn't read either of these correctly.

Policy lims really don't attract me the way they once did. Just not much information on them, too easy to hide scum following along, and I just really don't see the need for anything like that looking at this game so far.

Magik is sitting waiting to see where the wagons fall before making a commitment, hoping to get town cred for it by taking a stance against policy lims.

And this isn't because it burned my butt the game where I tried to rail Not_Mafia into the ground, or because I've been reading dozens of games in the time since I last played and generally seen it work out poorly in all but one instance? There's a far easier and realistic explanation in either of these than "he's trying to sit on a commitment".

280, feels very much like they're searching for reasons to hop onto my wagon where they don't realistically need that many. As if they're trying to build a strong case against me so they can push me as the main wagon later in the day.

287, subtle shade without actually trying to engage my slot. I don't think asking for thoughts on other players is very unusual or particularly scummy, but the way it's phrased in this post just has some ineffable bad energy about it for me. It feels agenda driven rather than earnest.

If they were trying to set up a wagon for later, why start pushing you now instead of, you know, later? If it was just shade I could maybe see it being a setup for future use, but not when they throw their vote down so quickly and then continue to push it through. That narrative doesn't fit so well.

The shade in 287 is pretty bad though. Does Andante have utterly no thoughts on me to write off the idea so quickly? (the answer is no, he admits to "liking my lines" in 294.) It's rather self evident that they took the whole "day pass" thing as scummier than most others, and maybe I've got a little bit of a bias here, but it really feels like he stuck to the surface level and doesn't believe that anyone else could read me as more town than he thinks, or at least not enough to look past me for a little while?

I dunno, the motivations here are murky.

Here in 323 Magik is avoiding taking a side but clearly egging on the heat toward Andante.

It's me trying to understand what's going on, because I didn't like what either side was saying there. Andante and I got along less well through this, that's for certain, but I'm actively questioning Tejate's takes on it at the same time. If anything I'm egging both sides for information and explanations of what they're seeing in the other.

Honestly, I don't like either side of that 1 for 1 between Tejate and Andante the longer I look at it. Too many assumptions, doesn't really seem much like either was reading the other well.

No, saving people for later in a large game is not that suspect. Feels like an overreaction at best.
No, I don't think Tejate was scumreading Andante for "not townreading him". That assumption is just plain bad.

Yes, I do think ducking away to "avoid lolhammers" was very weak and scummy reasoning. There were nowhere near enough votes for that concern from Tejate.
No, I don't think poking Hellbooks for information about Tejate is a bad thing. Feels like reading way too deep into nothing, and I buy Andante's response to that point.

Hard to say which looks worse.

Again, shading both sides but with a bias toward Andante, avoiding taking a stance to wait until seeing how wagons fall. I think Magik leaves unsaid here that Magik would like to hammer Andante but is willing to go through with Tejate if necessary.

This post is as split 50/50 between the two that I have utterly no clue how you think my claims against Andante are worse in this post than the ones against Tejate. You can accuse me of shading both sides maybe, but you cannot claim accurately that this is trying to push things more towards Andante than Tejate. Hell, if anything I push less against Andante by claiming I agreed with some of his prior reasoning!

Firebringer read progression

*3rd post

and I don't see why not? Like I'm not saying its a fire-tire panda team or anything just that I don't think Fire "shitposting" and calling for votes on himself is particularly pro-town.

of course, he and others will just wright it off as shitposting and say that scum wouldn't bring that much attention to themselves

but that's how I feel so eh

Firebringer is a shitposting trolley player. One that at least plays the game unlike some, but this behavior is stuff I have seen from them before as town in Anything uPick in the Good Luck Buddy hydra, so it's somewhere between NAI to +town for him.

Meh
VOTE: CSF

Bad vote.

wow 4 posts from DW in less than 20 minutes.. easy there hoss.. Town DW

Is this a meta call or something?

This already looks suspicious to me, Firebringer being +town makes no sense at this point in the game, and what does that even mean, it looks like a madeup read.

Consider this: I had only seen Firebringer doing this as Town before, and not as scum. It's a bad read perhaps, and one that later got proven wrong, but that doesn't make it any less valid now does it? If I think I have a valid read I'll state it, whether it's proven false later or not. Not like I'm gonna disagree with my own reasoning.

wow… so spicy!! love it tbh!!!

i feel like im being strongarmed into wanting to townread you from you being likeable

That’s not a bad thing!!! I’m town! Feel free to TR me

@CSF I mean, it’s not a TR I’d die for, just an early gut read I had, consider it a town lean vs lock town read, and I liked the overall energy coming into the game, felt like Fire wasn’t afraid to post/afraid of appearance, was just having fun, breaking the ice, making it super easy for people to make an entrance. That kind of stuff I generally view as townier rather than as scum behaviors

Wait were u really townreading me

I feel like at this point u should know that’s my personality ur town reading not play

This is a possibility, but I also haven't see you rooting around for scumreads as scum yet. Haven't seen any of your scum games though I'll admit.

Could you link me to a scumgame or two of yours?

Now Magik is pretending to be scum hunting while really setting up for an excuse to readflip the ridiculous +town assessment of Firebringer from 149. Magik knows Firebringer could be wagoned and doesn't want to get called out on for being inconsistent with their weird early townread of Firebringer.

This was my last scum game
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88484

Okay yeah, Firebringer did do the whole "I'm scum scumread me" thing as actual scum too. Very mild townlean retracted, clearly this is the scummiest of the scums in the universe.

Now the fake townread has been retracted almost immediately and there is a joke so Magik's stance on Firebringer is left unclear so Magik has the option to wagon Firebringer later.

Nah, not interested in chucking out Fire. We'll see his loyalties in good time. Don't know much about Toog short of the fact that he never rolls scum, so I'm fine with sorting him out later.

Now despite retracting the town lean on Firebringer earlier in 168, Magik claims not to be interested in a Firebringer wagon, so he doesn't get viewed as pushing easy mislims. I think Magik wants to wagon Firebringer based on their earlier progression on the slot, but Magik is waiting for someone else to be vocal about starting the wagon so he doesn't get blamed for it.

a lil' yeah. What has fire said was straight outta yer head?

155 and 169 together form a larger block of matching thoughts, which I spoke more about in 196. 197 is another.

So I guess mostly his questioning of Hell.

This is a lie IMO, I have no idea what a town!Magik could be seeing in these posts from Firebringer.

Consider this: If my plan was to tank my fire townread in 164, why did I later claim he was off my docket in 260 and my later explanation of it in 291? Those two posts both work against this narrative, making it incredibly unlikely to impossible. Despite this you still use both posts as proof against me too? You can't really push a narrative of "Magik tanked his Fire read to make his reads more difficult to understand" and "Magik falsely inflated his Fire read to make himself look better" at the same time, this is simply not possible for me to do both at the same time and both are an argument against the other, which means you have to be wrong with one or both of these narratives. Realistically you're wrong everywhere, hell you called me a liar for saying he had the same thoughts I did? What sort of an argument is this?

Also, is Magik townreading, scumreading, what on Firebringer at this point? The read progression here appears made up because Magik is like claiming to not even townread Firebringer, so why is this post here? It looks like Magik is claiming to be null on Firebringer while saying things that sound like a townread while posturing himself to join a Firebringer wagon given the opportunity.

Phew okay. Now I'm to try to organize my notes on Magik being partners with Tejate, there was something I just saw recently.

I am still townleaning Fire, for the previous reasons, and I'm surprised you didn't just, you know,

ask

instead of just saying "I can't figure it out, he must be trying to hide it". Hell, if I was trying to posture myself onto possibly joining a Fire wagon I certainly did everything possible to screw myself over.

Too many assumptions, and this case really feels like reading the absolute worst into every single post I make. It would've really been better if you asked me instead of trying to accuse me of everything first, because I'm not sure you were really trying to put the effort into reading me as much as just making me look bad.

[MagikHorse]

These are some of my earlier Magik-TR associative notes combined with what I saw more recently.

That's one vote too many on the wagon, VOTE: Tejate Raichu

How many is too many, and why is it here? Any thoughts on the other votes on the Firebringer wagon, or just Tejate?

I think momo's vote here isn't 100% serious and what reasoning exists isn't actually bad or difficult to understand. I think scum!Magik is overreacting because they didn't expect their partner to be wagoned so early and scum!Magik is briefly doubting their ability to control the gamestate.

If I'm as good a scum player as you say, and one where you read my scum PT where I said I liked to ignore my scumbuddies, why would I ever be worried about this at all, especially this early into the day? Early wagons usually don't stay together that long, and I'd be so much better off not doing exactly this as scum.

For example look at how Magik is attempting to minimize his perceived interest in the Tejate slot:

Sheeping 76

I think you've quoted the wrong post or something. I was talking about grilling Momo in that post, nothing at all about Tejate.

I think these early interactions plant the seed in Magik's mind that Tejate may not be able to blend with the other high activity posters as well as Magik, and Magik is uncertain about the best way to handle the situation. Magik believes he should bus his friend before he becomes a liability, but doesn't want to ruin his friendship by getting Tejate killed D1 or crush Tejate's ego by telling him to shut up because his scum play is drawing attention.

Um... Galron admitted to misreading my post in the very next post after this one. Galron was taking it as me pushing Tejate in a way I wasn't, I simply explained how he misread it and moved on? What part of telling someone "you made a reading mistake" is AI?

I get the same sincere vibe from them too, though 44 irks me a little bit. If I hadn't talked with Tejate before we signed up and saw him chatting about setups I'd expect it to be +scum equity, but not after seeing that sort of curiosity offsite.

I do like 94 as a response at least, and that's where a lot of that genuine tonality can be found. It's not argumentative, it's simply laying it down as it is and moving on. It's something I've felt before a time or two, and can get behind.

I'm seeing Tejate slightly +town at this point in time overall, but I'll keep an eye there in particular.

Here scum!Magik is still thinking about what he saw starting in post 74, and outs a scum tell by deliberately waffling about his read on the TJ slot. I think Magik is worried about being linked to TJ now and for having TMI with him. This motivated Magik to remind everyone here that Magik has talked to TJ before the sign ups (and Magik is concealing information about the extent of his prior communication with TR's slot, which you'll see in a moment.)

Magik is making up the stuff about being +town or +scum and just wants to keep both options open because scum!Magik hasn't decided yet if they are going to fight for TJ's safety or throw hm under the bus.

If I wanted to protect Tejate, why would I even mention 44 at all? There's not much scum motivation to bring up a negative trait on a scumbuddy unless my intention was to prepare to bus them, and it's clear I'm not really focused on that by now? The motivation doesn't match up with the accusation, especially when leaving potential dirt buried is overall better and forces town to look closer instead of doing the dirty work for the town in a game full of enough clowns to form a circus.

I think 106 is brought on too by scum paranoia that Tejate and Magik haven't been distancing enough, as in this next point here from the second case I was working on:

Tejate, do you have any reads you'd commit to at all? Like hot dang, you're being super noncommittal all over the place.

I think Magik is starting to be paranoid here again that Tejate is going to be a liability and that Magik hasn't been distancing enough.

I'm more just paranoid in general over there, but once again if I'm trying to bus him why am I not all over him or supporting the Andante side of the 1v1 more? It doesn't add up unless I want to split the town, which is quite the big accusation and not at all what you're claiming to see here.

Compare the harshness of 484 with the softness of Magik's push on Tejate:

I don't get the same vibes you do looking closer at that. It's not even close to being hard to fake, and many of those questions were fairly basic "what does this mean" sorts of asks. Then we get to the cantina music thing and it just becomes fluff for a while.

Did anything from that section stand out more than just "he asked a few simple questions"?

@Tejate

Forgot to quote the post, bleh.

The level of pressure expressed in 506 is not congruent with the level of suspicion expressed immediately before in 484.

Okay, and? Realizing how flip-floppy Tejate was is a far bigger point to question than simply trying to divulge a little more info afterwards. It's like you're trying to read me on tone because I didn't remain hyper aggro on him for some reason? It's like maybe I bought his response to my original post and toned my suspicions down afterwards, or that I simply didn't feel the need to push as hard on the smaller point. Wow, fancy that.

It looks like another distancing attempt, and is followed shortly thereafter by this:

Tejate and I first met because we watch the same Town of Salem streamer, Pipetron, and were both in his Discord chat. I'm decently familiar with the terminology because of that, though lately I've been scrolling Surv and Pirate in ToS. Pirate is fun.

In fact, we mutually agreed to join this game on the Pipetron Discord. Doesn't mean I'm not gonna look at him the same as any other player or pull any punches, and as per the site rules all game related chat will be in the main game thread as normal.

I think Magik felt like they were going to be linked to TJ because of partner paranoia and wanted to get an excuse out on top of it. I think Magik is telling the truth in 513 (while concealing that Magik can also communicate with TJ via the scum pt.) Magik is motivated to speak out at this moment in post 513 because of the returning paranoia of being linked to TJ. Notice how Magik concealed the extent of out-of-thread communication with TJ in 106, when Magik's prior relationship with Tejate could have easily been mentioned in a more casual way.

And it wasn't just more relevant later on when Tejate made a Town of Salem reference that I could easily explain? I already admitted that there was some pre-game chatter in 106 to begin with, the only thing that changed was that I gave people a location to look at if they wanted to see it for themselves. Why does it even matter?

Like, this story only works in a world where both of us are scum, but the evidence just isn't there to support that claim anywhere. It certainly doesn't exist in a conversation that happened before either of us got a role PM. Joining together does not make us two scum.

[MagikHorse]

The game where Magikhorse mech specced is from a Newbie game where the setup is semi-open.

What kind of setup spec did you expect here in a large theme with a closed setup?

I was expecting quite a bit. An estimate of the size of the scum team for starters.

Well, consider your expectations shot. Most of the games I've read in my downtime are Newbies, everything else is usually a role madness styled uPick where guessing roles is already an insane task because the roles are nuts (such as the time I was a Disloyal Doctor in one of my previous games). This is neither of those extremes, and not a skill I have acquired.

[MagikHorse]

#1

It's true I don't know that you play every scum game mech heavy. Even now reading your posts I think you seem like a very mechanical minded player. This is my interpretation of you as a player though and I could always be wrong.

#2

I think good mech knowledge can be exploited in both kinds of setups and players who enjoy the mech aspect of the game and win with it in one will usually try and find a way to win with it in others as well. This one too though I'll admit I could be wrong.

#3

I don't really think this one is believable.

#4

Reading your posts I got a similar kind of vibe to what I remembered. I expect that your play has changed over the last couple of years.

#5

Because you're not Town

#6-#8

I understand what you mean about 352 and 603.

1-2: I am an intelligent player, but without a baseline I can do nothing, nor do I think mechanical speculation will be helpful at this time in the game. You're assuming I have knowledge to go with that intelligence that I lack.
3: You... do know the point of a newbie game, don't you? You know, teaching newbies? If I had a more experienced player, odds are low I would've done the same sort of mech spec there.
4: Similar =/= the same, nor is this situation or game style the same. You're only going to steer yourself off the tracks focusing too heavily on older meta as you've been doing here.
5: This doesn't make any sense. You're accusing me of liking setup spec as scum, yet accuse me of being scum because I'm not doing the setup spec I did as scum. You can't argue both sides of this coin in good faith. I cannot both be scum for doing mech spec and also for not doing mech spec, that would make everything NAI.
6-8: Prove it, because it doesn't look like it to me and rather obviously misread them the first time.

[MagikHorse]

I was about to correct CSF there too, but if I did I'm sure Frogster would've accused me of "distancing" again

His case is just so much bad faith pushing, and it's rather blatant. Between his answer #5 which was completely contradictory to his own claims, to his framing of my motives which is similarly contradictory (e.g. I'm both trying to muddy and hide my Fire read and also declaring him a townread I won't vote today making it obvious what I think about him), to pushing absolutely everything I do in the worst way even when it's a post that really doesn't mean jack ("You misread my post" is apparently +scum somehow?), to his seeming unwillingness to even consider any alternative reasoning to my posts beyond what he read into them, or even to simply

ask me to explain anything

. I certainly wouldn't miss the wolf being thrown out of the bed onto the woodcutter's axe, because he's trying to kill, not to solve.

VOTE: Frogster

E-2

If there's one thing I believe about him, it's that he's utterly scared of me. Not because I'm scum, but because he is and he remembers what I was capable of, and that I might've gotten better since. If I'm right then he truly does have much to fear now that he's dragged me in to fight him, and drugged up and drowsy or not I'm not letting myself go down to a trashy push like this.

[MagikHorse]

This wagon isn't pure, I'm town, and if my reads are wrong and need to be doctored, I will listen after you unvote.

Why should I have to unvote to make you listen to me, or anyone else for that matter? Your push is already an abysmal mess ridden with assumptions, bad faith, contradictions, and claims that you know me when it's obvious that you don't know jack. Now we see this post, which is solely survivalistic, an attempt to alleviate the pressure bearing down on you instead of sorting or solving or working with the rest of the town. I don't think I need to explain how that's +++scum points.

If you're actually town, show it to me and

then

I'll unvote. No sooner, no later. That's the only deal you're going to get from me.

[MagikHorse]

No clue why Frozen Angel is so high in that N_M readslist when they only have 3 prodges to their ISO and no actual game content. That read should be null at best. Meatworld problems happen and I can get that much at least, but there's just nothing there to read into. Similarly don't understand what he's seeing in Hell to make him this townie.

I can understand the RR read though. For as short as that ISO is it does appear to be putting in a little effort towards solving.

[MagikHorse]

It may as well be honestly, but that doesn't mean I can't pick at it anyways.

[MagikHorse]

No clue why Frozen Angel is so high in that N_M readslist when they only have 3 prodges to their ISO and no actual game content. That read should be null at best. Meatworld problems happen and I can get that much at least, but there's just nothing there to read into. Similarly don't understand what he's seeing in Hell to make him this townie.

I can understand the RR read though. For as short as that ISO is it does appear to be putting in a little effort towards solving.

You've been told about this by different people. You have no excuse any longer.

I've been told what exactly? Don't beat around the bush like this.

[MagikHorse]

is this a playstyle thing from frog? to sort of play the game retroactively by accumulating a large backlog of info and then pushing it out all at once?

Not as far as I've been able to tell.

[MagikHorse]

No clue why Frozen Angel is so high in that N_M readslist when they only have 3 prodges to their ISO and no actual game content. That read should be null at best. Meatworld problems happen and I can get that much at least, but there's just nothing there to read into. Similarly don't understand what he's seeing in Hell to make him this townie.

I can understand the RR read though. For as short as that ISO is it does appear to be putting in a little effort towards solving.

You've been told about this by different people. You have no excuse any longer.

I've been told what exactly? Don't beat around the bush like this.

Believing anything that Not_Mafia posts in early game is genuine.

I don't understand why a "lack of genuineness" doesn't mean I can't interact with it? All it does is make my own reads clearer by seeing where I agree and disagree with his list, and for all I know he's trying to dig for reactions with those readlists to see who is actually trying to solve and play the game and who is fine just ignoring it to steer his votes later. Might be a bit of a stretch, but it's a possibility.

Like, I may not like Not_Mafia's play style either but I really don't get why you're interjecting yourself into this and ignoring the actual reads in my post all because you think his reads aren't real. Last I knew that didn't affect my reads at all.

[MagikHorse]

The last three posts are ridiculous. And Not_Mafia is not än it. Check out his pronouns.

The "it" was his post, not Not_Mafia himself. Read more carefully please.

He also doesn't have any listed pronouns as far as I can tell.

[MagikHorse]

This is a whole lot of bickering, and I don't really have the time to do much more than skim through it before work, but I do want to address this.

The Metronome ticks on, and the timing should yield maybe one more...

Either that or I'm trying to 4/4 in a 3/4 or 7/8... if only I had the Glowing Hourglass for if I'm wrong....

Rather curious about the kills mind... implies a clear multiball to me.

VOTE: MagikHorse

Why do you think that a scum!Frogster starts the entire game and devotes his entire existence towards shitpushing/bussing me for his entire Day 1?

[MagikHorse]

I didn't even remember Hell having a case on Tejate, and I didn't spot much in that ISO either.

Huh.

[MagikHorse]

What do you see in Hell that makes you think they're town Toogeloo?

[MagikHorse]

So you really don't have any actual reason of your own to want to vote me? No original thoughts, just following hellbooks?

Magik, can I ask your thoughts on Nero's case?

Gimme a bit, it's lunch break and I want to eat.

If I don't have the time, I'll get to it when I get home at the latest.

[MagikHorse]

I need to look into that case deeper, but 900 looks bad from what I've gotten through so far. That quote from Tejate was taken way, way out of context, and I don't like how Nero twisted that around at all. 901 wasn't much better either.

[MagikHorse]

What should I be reading in them then, if not manipulation or an attempt to irritate Tejate?

Like, it's not even the tone, I just don't see why town would need to twist someone's words like that by cutting out 98% of the post including all the context behind it. That's where I'm struggling. Where's the town reasoning for doing that?

And I started there because they're at the top of the page and I was working backwards anyways. I'll look further into it once I'm home. I've already said as much. Not sure why it matters so much to you when what I said was fairly universal whether I started at the beginning or not.

[MagikHorse]

I did say time was short, not sure why you'd think I'd be able to go stupidly deep after I made 1027 not that long before. If you want more, wait until I get home and can parse all this, because I really haven't had the time.

[MagikHorse]

859 I get that the large amount of kills is a bit worrying, but I don't see anywhere to go from the ground that wouldn't amount to simple guessing at this time. Forcing it won't help anyone.

865 I don't think calling it a "scum stall" as you bolded in this post is TMI, it felt kinda obvious to me too that he was trying to buy himself time too. It does look bad that Andante was effectively shouting to look elsewhere though, with the sole saving grace being that it was before the promised and infamous Magik case, which I can buy wanting to see. Galron was also asking people to back off the wagon in 850 too at the end of Day 1, now that I think about it.

880/888/891 I can sort of see both sides here, but not so equally. It feels a bit unlikely for Tejate to bus and then rail into Frog like this with another supposedly town wagon available, until I realize that Tejate was the biggest wagon (with 4 votes as of the votecount in 554) before the votes on Frog started to pile up. Tejate's push against Frog seemed rather legitimate from my eyes however, and the only world where I buy this "intentional bus" is one where Tejate is a Mafia PR that's getting scared or if the next biggest option (Galron) is also scum. The rest of the time Tejate's just town.

897 is basically that same defense.

898 isn't really OMGUS, OMGUS usually implies that there's no other real reasons to be voting besides lashing back. I don't like either Nero or Keeper belittling that vote.

900 and 901 are still aggressive, but they're not really AI in hindsight.

906 is just dumb. This notation isn't exactly uncommon. Heck, I've thrown it around before in this game already, and Frogster used it a couple times too.

919 perfectly describes my thoughts on Nero's solve. Nothing at all is preventing Toog from being scum there instead of Tejate in this POE, why is he writing off the possibility?

tl;dr I really don't buy into Nero's case here at all. It feels too much like Frog's case against me, working backwards from the solution instead of asking the questions.


Now, into the pile with these other responses not based solely around this argument between Nero and Tejate.
875
Yeah, I'm kind of surprised to be alive too. Not sure exactly what it means just yet, but I have a few hunches I'll hold close to my chest.

886
You think I'm scum after that Frogster push? Are you paying any sort of attention?

988 is actually interesting. Will actually poke around there in a little while, I need to rest after reading that much.

[MagikHorse]

Shoot, I edited the number in the preview but it didn't fix the post link. I meant to link to 988, not 998 in the final line.

[MagikHorse]

so magik is basically sheeping all of TR's talking points.

Who do you actually think is scum at this point?

This game is just a waiting game at this point. NM already said he'd hammer TR so we just gotta wait for momo to stop voting the other scum and come over here and keeper to get out of their bad tunnel, IMO.

What's to say you're not the one in the bad tunnel, and why do you seem to be pushing for a very fast day?

Like, realtalk Nero, your case against Tejate feels pre-decided, like the trash that Frogster was throwing at me. There's really not much consideration at all for their reasoning or explanations, and a whole lot of disbelief for any alternative answers they provide. Hate to say it but "I don't believe this" isn't very effective by itself, and it doesn't show that you're thinking things through. Heck, some of that could jjust be a differing playstyle than your own. Some parts of it overlap into pre-flip associatives too (e.g. "they chainsawed to protect their other unflipped buddy). Those sorts of associatives are as stable as a house of cards, one wrong move and it'll all come tumbling down.

If you truly believe in the Tejate case, give me something that has none of these associative arguments with anyone else that's alive, and give me some more solid reasons to believe in them. Otherwise, give me a good reason to townread everyone else. Failing that, I'd rather try to look over Galron, Hellbooks, Keeper, and Toogeloo and figure out which side of the fence they're on and move on from there.

[MagikHorse]

Actually anyone who town reads Tejate should say why.

If you want a dedicated case you'll have to wait until I get home.

But just for starters I believe the "he intentionally hard bussed" reasoning is very unlikely tinfoil. Add in the fact that Tejate actually went to my old game that Frog was trying to meta me off of to make post 749. I just really don't think the two are aligned at all. It all felt like a natural progression from Tejate.

The more I think about Nero the more I see tinfoil everywhere. I'm starting to believe he's town, just too wrapped up in a single solve.

[MagikHorse]

My suspicion of TR is a carryover from d1 (you can find the post in my iso) although I do think that his day start wanting to talk about the setup was on the scummy side of things. "scum wouldn't bus frog!" oh yes they could and I think it makes sense to. I mean, I guess I could see it from your pov where you think a 4th vote on the wagon is an anti-associative but here's the thing and I think it's really important but I was pushing AD at day start. Tej is the one that argued that I had more reason to vote him than AD. He wanted votes off of AD. If you are associative hunting AD is the one that was calling Frog scum but didn't want to vote there. Is it really that big of a stretch to go from Frog was scum>>>AD didn't want to be on the wagon>>>Tej is trying to get votes off of AD

I can possibly agree with the setup spec part. Hell I brought up one other instance of it before as well during Day 1 if you remember, under the belief that it may have been a personality thing. I know scum can and does bus, I just think Tejate came into that wagon naturally and pushed it well. If that push from Tejate is scum theater, it's pretty damn good on Tejate's part.

The associative stuff is a bit weird though, and as I had thought was fairly clear by now I do not naturally think in associatives, but rather motivations. I'll have to look at Andante again to confirm anything there, if you could point me the right direction there I'll probably listen, but that's about that honestly.

how do you know my solve is wrong? You don't unless you are scum or a pr with an inno.

but then again you aren't pushing anywhere or even have a solve so.......

You don't know yours is right either by this very logic. Fancy that.

When I see town motivations behind some of the statements you're throwing out I will speak up, whether to be proven wrong or to make a point that the case still needs work. There's little wrong with this that I can see. I know my word is absolute, and it's technically possible, but this is how I do things and you're not really gonna change that.

[MagikHorse]

Why are you not pushing anywhere?

A mix of trying to figure out this mess with you and a fair bit of drowsiness caused by a side effect of some medication I'm on for back pain. Since I'm not trying to spend a bunch of time to make a wall, you can expect some actual player thoughts sometime tonight.

[MagikHorse]

Andante is kinda just following the scum!Magik wave without any real input into it, just claiming it openly with no reasons. It kinda seems like his reads are following whatever's the most popular, and I looked back at his ISO and saw quite a bit of soft defending as Nero was saying.

Hellbooks has done very little today either but start an STD wagon for some reason. 1137 is a diamond in the rough from them, and even that's a bit shaky. The only reason I'm not scumreading them is that they started the wagon on Frog.

I want to hear some content from STD. I did a quick and dirty dive into a couple games, and even his town games looked kinda like this. There has to be a better way to read this slot.

Toog actually did a little bit for once, and I'm liking most of it. Less so the part that was basically an excuse to be lazy, but most else seems good. Hoping to see more activity in the future.

Galron's day 2 is just... unimpressive. The only good post I'm seeing in it is 1097, and even that's not much. If anyone has a reason to townread this, please share.

Scorp... I'm pretty sure you're town here, and I have a few questions for you. You said back in 1002 that Galron is obvtown, then 1164/1165 happened. Did those change your thoughts any? If you still think he's town, could you explain why to me? I'm really not seeing it.

Momo is a "quality over quantity" type, and what does come out feels like actual solving. 1019 is a real good catch.

I have no clue what Keeper is doing honestly, or why their vote is parked on me right now. Their posts insinuate it's about my vote timing I presume, but on the guy Frog specifically tried to ham up and elim? I need an explanation on that one.

I have nothing at all to say about Not_Mafia that hasn't been said by someone else.

[MagikHorse]

Feeling like the big people to watch out for right now are Andante, Galron, and Keeper. The first two feel like scum in particular, Keeper's just acting strangely combined with generally low input and even less solving.

Fire seems agitated too, though I'm starting to share this uncertainty regarding why he feels like there's 2 scum on the Frog wagon. Why 2 instead of 1 or 0? All 3 I severely doubt, if I believed in that I'd be placing my money on STD/Toog/N_M here, but I would like him to elaborate on why and who are these 2 (at risk of being called out for repeating Nero who I believe asked something similar on top of claiming it as TMI).

[MagikHorse]

N_M I can potentially see, if only because everything with him is NAI. I don't agree that it's Scorp.

[MagikHorse]

I'm quite aware of your opinions Nero, as much as I disagree with them. All that being said, I'm not really seeing many scum prospects on the wagon myself.

Removing the three dead town from the wagon plus myself (both for being Frog's immediate target and for knowing my own role PM), and then strip away my townreads (Tej/Scorp) and Hell for being the one to start it going and not backing off when it grew large and I'm left with STD/Toog/N_M as I said a couple posts ago. N_M is the eternal wildcard that is never townie nor scummy, my meta dive into STD hasn't yielded much scum prospects through meta and if anything shows this sort of play is fairly normal, and Toog has improved for Day 2 as I mentioned earlier. I'm left with a wagon that looks mostly pure, maybe 1 scum in the quieter part of the pool at best assuming I trust in my reads. I don't have much reason to assume 2 scum there myself.

Looking back at Fire he was saying 2 scum on the wagon because it seemed "orchestrated to end the day quickly" (or something very similar to that), but Scum!Scorp alone could cause that regardless of N_M's role. N_M would hammer regardless of alignment every time there, it's one thing he's known for doing. If N_M is as passive in scumchats as he is in the main game I really doubt it was organized between him and another scum just due to a lack of general communication as well.

If there's anything else that Fire's scumreading Scorp for, please point it out. I've either missed it or he hasn't said it yet.

[MagikHorse]

I think 1191 is @me since those two sets are both things I've laid down, and if so he's clearly mistaking what I meant by the latter.

Andante/Galron/Keeper are the ones I'm actively scumreading the most at this time, independently of other factors. Keeper a little less than the other two, but still feels like there's scum here. This is my actual scum readslist, and the closest thing I've got to a solve.

STD/Toog/N_M are the only options from on the Day 1 Frog wagon I think have any significant chance for hitting scum, upon breaking the wagon down and removing my townreads from it. I've said I don't see good odds of scum in it looking over the list, nor do I really believe Fire's claim of 2 scum on the wagon after breaking it down like this.

In short the former is a scumlist, the latter is a wagon breakdown that also sort of becomes a list of low hanging fruit. I think looking off the wagon will yield more results than on this time around.

Pedit: Hell was another player I'm concerned about as well, and if I added a fourth name to my scumlist it would be them. I didn't like Hell's D1, they kinda half supported the Frog push without looking like they were willing to commit to it, and now today they're just sort of coasting with Nero.

[MagikHorse]

Oh no, our third party Friendship Faction has been outed! What are we gonna do now?

Probably just chase scum.

[MagikHorse]

i'm not sure why i'm considered a potential busser while other people are not

Is this to anyone specific, or a general thought to the masses?

[MagikHorse]

@Hellbooks: My reads are independent as of now, I've already spoken my distaste of and general lack of ability regarding pre-flip associatives. It's just not a thing I do.

It does look bad that Galron's a bit focused on his appearance regardless of all that anyways. I'll reread Andante tonight and see if I can find this solving side you're seeing. If you think there's something in particular I should look for, please feel free to drop it in the thread and I'll take a good look.

[MagikHorse]

What is the purpose of 1210 and 1211?

And to Scorp, I forgot just how picky Mafia players were at casual wording. Regardless, take a look at Hell's D1. They were pushing towards the Frog wagon half-heartedly, but didn't at all try to commit to it one way or another.

[MagikHorse]

@Keeper Your entire day 2 is full of indecisiveness, stating rather obvious gameplay points, and somehow coming out of the Frogster interactions deciding I'm scum from them at the start of the day after worrying about a multiball game?

It feels like busywork so far, though the other two scumreads are worse as I see it.

[MagikHorse]

wait actually....

I think that if you thought this:

I didn't like Hell's D1, they kinda half supported the Frog push without looking like they were willing to commit to it

It doesn't make sense that you would say this:

The only reason I'm not scumreading them is that they started the wagon on Frog.

so.... whats up with that?

I distinctly remember ISOing you in both, while the first time I was paying a lot of attention to the actual wagon composition. Feels like I missed the vote the second time, which is totally my bad. I'll own that mistake.

[MagikHorse]

Probably +town that you noticed my goof though. Shows you're actually reading in-depth and trying to figure me out.

[MagikHorse]

Frogster is present elsewhere but not here.

I'll have to double check on this. If so, it's definitely scum indicative.

Was this sarcasm?

It wasn't, but the rules just changed so that mentioning factors like this as a reason for a read wouldn't be allowed anymore so the less said about it the better at this point.

[MagikHorse]

This wagon isn't pure, I'm town, and if my reads are wrong and need to be doctored, I will listen after you unvote.

Why should I have to unvote to make you listen to me, or anyone else for that matter? Your push is already an abysmal mess ridden with assumptions, bad faith, contradictions, and claims that you know me when it's obvious that you don't know jack. Now we see this post, which is solely survivalistic, an attempt to alleviate the pressure bearing down on you instead of sorting or solving or working with the rest of the town. I don't think I need to explain how that's +++scum points.

If you're actually town, show it to me and

then

I'll unvote. No sooner, no later. That's the only deal you're going to get from me.

What would have shown you “town” enough to unvote? You already said how bad the wagon was.

Good people can make bad wagons, but what sealed the nail in his coffin was his refusal to listen or rethink things with new information added to blatant survivalism. That proved to me that his push wasn't there to sort me, but rather to elim me.

Had he started to listen or reconsider things I could have eventually let it go, but he didn't and thus proved his true desires.

[MagikHorse]

Where was Scorp making bad posts?

And if not involvement, what would you read Nero for?

[MagikHorse]

STD isn't giving us much to work with, I still need to rethink Hell at this point in time.

[MagikHorse]

Took a moment to clear my head and focus on rereading Hell. This reread makes me realize their Day 1 was better than I remembered, and not by just a little. A lot of the questions she was asking drove towards figuring out motivations and emotions in her attempts to discover what everyone was about, and even better she was following back up on the answers later and showing how those answers shaped her thoughts. Add on her own tidbits here and there and ultimately starting the wagon on Frogster, and she doesn't look bad at all. Catching my mistake a few posts back shares the same inquisitive feeling to it as some of their better Day 1 information gathering posts, and I'm already expecting a future follow-up to match the patterns honestly. I'd buy the reasons in 1206 as an explanation for their shakier Day 2, and I hope everything goes well over there and that we can get this back in gear.

It feels like my head got stuck in a rut of "I didn't like some of the really early stuff" that didn't want to shake itself off later, and it painted a lot of things in a worse light than I'm seeing now. I was wrong before, this is likely town.

pedit: Didn't even notice Toog until I finished this. I can't help but agree with that post after my Hell reread.

[MagikHorse]

@Keeper Your entire day 2 is full of indecisiveness, stating rather obvious gameplay points, and somehow coming out of the Frogster interactions deciding I'm scum from them at the start of the day after worrying about a multiball game?

It feels like busywork so far, though the other two scumreads are worse as I see it.

My entire play is indecisiveness. All I have is Quality 0 in my item room.

Who said I looked at interactions?
Who said I decided you were scum?

I might have to find the Anima Sola... wonder where Jacob is.

If you think I'm not scum, why did you open the day by voting me?

The rest is just not doing much of note, which is the same thing people were saying on Day 1.

[MagikHorse]

On the slim chance that Andante is town, he needs to pull his head out of this tunnel and start thinking. At the least case me or something, I can do jack all about a naked vote and a scumread you refuse to explain. That's ignoring what Toog said, which is correct. Do you really believe that the entire scumteam piled on Frog the moment he came in instead of trying to get him to actually play the game and make up for his absence? I don't know about you, but I'd far sooner try to get him into the game or get a replacement into the slot instead of whatever that chicanery was.

Also not buying Keeper's "mechanically correct vote" line whatsoever. It's a line to duck out of being responsible for that vote, not any sort of justification for it.

Starting to really think the Keeper/Andante side of my scumlist is correct more and more. Probably due some votes there, but I'm sure someone would shout "It's OMGUS!" and try to thrust more trash down my throat, like Day 1 wasn't enough or something.

[MagikHorse]

I don't know what to make of Galron turning on Andante, but either it's one heck of a bus or my solve is wrong.

And Andante, you

are

literally claiming what Toogeloo said in that post, that 2 of the probably 3 remaining Mafia are in the dead Goon's deathtunnel and the person that got the wagon off the ground to begin with. Do you not see how dumb that is?

[MagikHorse]

I could go on either option too, though iirc some people actually townread Andante earlier? I have no clue if that'll stick now, because it seems like their latest spur of posting makes even less sense than before, their vote/scumread on me and Hell has utterly no justification to it, and they even ignored Toogeloo calling them out on their bad reasoning and brushed it aside because of those "vibes" in a quite frankly irritating manner while also providing an excuse to avoid guilt.

VOTE: Andante

Get a vibe check or get out of this town. I'm tired of you calling me scum with no explanation but your gut when all common sense and all likelihood goes against it.

[MagikHorse]

I think I need to take a break just to calm the hell down, so I'm gonna go do that. Sorry if I was a little too aggressive to Andante, but come on... you're pushing me on "vibes" as flimsy as tissue paper in a hurricane and you've been doing it all day.

Even Nero keeps bringing up "it's technically possible it was a big bus play" despite the absolutely inane and slim chances. This is Mafia, everything is "technically possible" within the rules of the game, that means nothing when it's so insanely unlikely to begin with.

I'll be back tomorrow, looking at the thread is just not good for me right now.

[MagikHorse]

What's the difference between Gal pretending to be maf and fire pretending to be maf?

Fire claims Maf as both town and scum. This is a point I've made previously, bringing up both the Good Luck Buddy hydra (Pooky+Fire) and in asking Fire for a scumgame where they did it as well (which the successfully provided), and that gives a meta precedent towards it being NAI.

I haven't heard anyone make that sort of claim about Galron yet.

[MagikHorse]

What's the difference between Gal pretending to be maf and fire pretending to be maf?

Fire claims Maf as both town and scum. This is a point I've made previously, bringing up both the Good Luck Buddy hydra (Pooky+Fire) and in asking Fire for a scumgame where they did it as well (which the successfully provided), and that gives a meta precedent towards it being NAI.

I haven't heard anyone make that sort of claim about Galron yet.

and this is my argument against meta in a nutshell, Is he absolved from this poor play forever now that he did it and ended up town a few times, its dumb play, and borderline anti-town.

Metas can and will change over time, and if Fire were to stop claiming scum eventually the association would fall away as well. Meta is like a loaf of bread, it will get stale over time.

Yes it's unhelpful to the town, I really don't think anyone would argue anything else, but be it far from me to tell others how they can and cannot play so long as they're falling within the rules.

[MagikHorse]

yeah so deadline is soon and I think I'm gonna die here, but like, I'd much rather live!! I'm friendly!!! I don't kill!!! well, not at night!! lets keep me!!!!

This AtE is gross.

Same with trying to derail everything with a LHF Not_Mafia vote.

Pedit: And refusing to claim? What role do you have that is so important that you're unwilling to claim it to potentially save your hide?

[MagikHorse]

This AtE is gross.

you've never played with andante before i'm guessing

You would be correct.

[MagikHorse]

comment on the andante wagon?

i don't feel like this is scum andante but i could be wrong

What leads you to believe this could be town? What I'm seeing is someone who's broken into a desperate pile of AtE, trying to create a hasty counterwagon, and refusing to claim when pushed up to the brink. All of this I'd consider scummy by itself, all wrapped together it looks so desperate towards their own survival that I have troubles believing it would be town in any game.

I get it, life is stressful IRL for them, they've said as much and I have no reason to believe otherwise. I hope you do well in your real life endeavors, even my earlier anger and frustration didn't make me wish against that, but you really do need to calm down if you're town and work with us instead of flailing about.

My break yesterday helped me cool my jets as it were anyways, that anger has abated, but now I'm left only with confusion at this radically different play and how you think this is potentially town still.

[MagikHorse]

RE:1161 Andante doesn't say Momo is town and scum, only says Momo is scum. It's hard to read with no punctuation between the three claims in the bottom line so I can see where the confusion comes from, the words blend together a little too much and even I had to give it a second glance at first.

Andante also neglects to mention in 1314 that Momo started off on Tejate D1, then cased Rat later. Sure, Momo's D1 is 4 posts, but only 2 of them are Rat focused. The way it was claimed Momo was solely on Rat, which is just false. I don't even know why Andante would insinuate that, an ISO of 7/8 posts is real easy to go through and prove that as a half truth.

Just keeping everyone honest here.

[MagikHorse]

I'd have few arguments to a hammer. If anything it might help Andante focus on more important things such as whatever IRL things they were talking about earlier.

[MagikHorse]

Rereading is critical at this stage, though the fact that I'm alive continues to be an oddity (as I've noticed Fire picking up on). At least Galron is gone, they would've been too easy for me to tunnel on today. Thanks to whomever shot them, unless it was scum upon which case I've got

nothing

on this game at all.

Will do some reading now, but I 100% will not be posting or checking in tomorrow. Tomorrow's my birthday, and I plan to spend it celebrating.

[MagikHorse]

magikhorse because why wouldn't scum kill this dude? He was the most townie out of everyone for days. Has to be deep wolf

Better take: the scum are idiots.

[MagikHorse]

enjoy ur bday.

Why do u think ur alive btw?

Either they're idiots/trolling, my townreads contain a scum that enjoys my tendencies to white knight townreads (upon which case congrats, you read my past games!), they're trying to chase after PR hints (which I have done none of, intentionally at least), or they just don't think I'm a good player/have a better player to shoot.

Given 3 dead vigilantes and the general unlikeliness of the vigi shots all landing on other vigis (and the generally +town opinion of Nero combined with the generally +scum opinion of Galron) I'm assuming a mix of the second and third options with Nero as the actual scumkill. I just really don't see scum killing Galron as easy limbait.

[MagikHorse]

I was townreading Hell before now, but similar to Tejate I'm doing a full reset to probably resolve on the 11th after my birthday fun.

[MagikHorse]

Had a great birthday, am back to see it's my turn for the popcorn (presuming myself to be the only pony in the game). As Tejate surmised I am another Vanilla Town, nothing unusual or out of the ordinary. Will pass the popcorn over to Scorpius.

I think I'll buy the Doctor claim for now. There was some initial paranoia that a scum might try a claim like that to look town in an otherwise mountainous game, but Hell's claimed actions matches up with their reads too well and I was generally liking their play prior in prior days, and even see why they were so particular about my Day 2 mistake as someone with more to lose than a vanilla. If that's scum somehow, she's really done a good job of looking town, and I don't think I have any real reason to consider that as scum.

Fire pushing me as scum is definitely on the wrong track and warrants some looking into now that my partying is done too, especially since he didn't bat an eye at Hell's Doctor claim boasting protection on me N2. It feels weird that it went unmentioned/unnoticed by Fire there. Like really, is it really that unlikely that I'd survive two nights when one of those nights was after a rapidly cutoff day with many people still left alive and when the other night had a Doctor claim on me and high chances of them going after Nero instead? Why does that somehow negate all your previous thoughts of "Magik was the towniest town" between Day 2 and 3 when I was not even at risk of dying Night 2 due to the Doctor? I'm kind of struggling to see where it comes from after the Doc claim short of pure paranoia. Similarly I want to know why Fire thinks he'd be dead if N_M was scum, it feels like some sort of meta reasoning I want to pry into. It feels like a really odd thing to mention otherwise.

Tejate's right about the SK, if there's an SK town has little chance but to rely on them to help mop up the scum in a situation like this. Elimming the SK likely just means town loses to the Mafia. It's a situation I've seen happen in Town of Salem a few times where Town needed a third party killer to remove a larger threat to both of their win conditions.

[MagikHorse]

So, to recap:

Toogeloo: VT
Hellbooks: Doctor
Not_Mafia: VT
Scorpius: BP Cop
Keeper: VT
Fire: VT
Myself: VT
Tejate: VT

Scorpius' claim doesn't make sense without a Mafia having some sort of roleblocker, even if someone dies the same night they're checked they should present a result. It's either unclaimed, or the role itself is fake. Will ponder more once I drive to work.

[MagikHorse]

Thinking from work, it feels like such a strange thing to include a role block as part of a fake claim. It could be the most clever of ruses, but the odds are too low for that.

Need to check on something else real quick, because something has caught my eye among the VT claims. Undoubtedly our remaining scum are in there. 3/5 odds of a good scum elim in there.

[MagikHorse]

The cop claim is the more suspect of the two I'll admit, though should such a role exist it absolutely mandates a Mafia Roleblocker of some variety. Follow the Cop is bad enough, making the cop Bulletproof is even bigger a threat. Saves them from stray Vigi shots, sure, but is also risk-free clears for town without one.

Hell could always reconsider their reads Day 2 so the reasoning there isn't damning. I'll look closer at that once I'm home, but I still checked at the end of each day and saw reasons to protect the slots they did, hence my initial belief of the claim.

Would like to ask both claimed PR slots if they crumbed anything along the way. That would help if they did.

[MagikHorse]

Trying to judge the actions of a N1 Mafia roleblocker is kind of just shooting into the air. It's a pile of WIFOM, and it's nearly impossible to tell why any individual would/wouldn't be blocked unless there was an obvious sign that said "PR here" over someone else's head that would make them a juicier target. Failing any notable PR signs from anyone else, a Mafia roleblocker would likely have been going into the night blind to who is and isn't a PR, effectively blocking at random.

All that being said, does Fire have a good reason why Scorpius couldn't/wouldn't be the target of a Mafia roleblocker N1? If he's going to make that insinuation that it's unlikely, he's the one that has to back it up with something that makes Scorpius less likely than random to be targeted by one.

And I'll admit, I nearly claimed out of turn myself due to my birthday plans. Happy anniversary Toogeloo, hope you enjoy yourself!

[MagikHorse]

actually one more thing i remembere which is that fb, if you think its tej/magik that means that frog double bussed D1 which i will say is NOT like impossible (like it could have just been a kamikaze opening gambit from the scum team to bank up a ton of town cred) but i think it feels too convoluted for me to easily accept it as the truth

Quite frankly I've found this odd from the get-go, base assumptions made without any deep thought to them, and I have yet to see him really take much note of anything said towards our slots. Either he's keeping stuff to himself or he's not reconsidering much at all and running on his gut alone, using whatever logic comes to mind and ignoring everything else. It's a different breed of Fire compared to the one we've seen for the rest of the game.

Fire also claimed to hint that he was going to take a Vigi shot on N_M, which is something I think I've spotted in his ISO. That opens up a world in which a scum!Fire is in that Vigi PT and faked that to look like he fit in with the rest of the Vigis. No guarantee that it's the case, there is potentially a world where he was indeed trying to bait a scumkill albeit rather poorly, but it's a possible explanation on why he might feel the need to do that. This is that thing I noticed the other day, and if it didn't look like it was already coming down to our final big shot I'd probably push on that harder.

Fire is ultimately proving to be my biggest conundrum either way. I'll try to focus on more slots tomorrow, but my weekend has been rather busy and I've stayed up way too late as it is. I have to wonder if Fire makes anything about both the Day 1 and Day 2 elims occurring over someone poorly scumreading me though, since he seems to be shooting for those sorts of weird angles already.

[MagikHorse]

Real assorted thought salad hours

Spoiler: Response to Magik's 1481

actually one more thing i remembere which is that fb, if you think its tej/magik that means that frog double bussed D1 which i will say is NOT like impossible (like it could have just been a kamikaze opening gambit from the scum team to bank up a ton of town cred) but i think it feels too convoluted for me to easily accept it as the truth

Quite frankly I've found this odd from the get-go, base assumptions made without any deep thought to them, and I have yet to see him really take much note of anything said towards our slots. Either he's keeping stuff to himself or he's not reconsidering much at all and running on his gut alone, using whatever logic comes to mind and ignoring everything else. It's a different breed of Fire compared to the one we've seen for the rest of the game.

Fire also claimed to hint that he was going to take a Vigi shot on N_M, which is something I think I've spotted in his ISO. That opens up a world in which a scum!Fire is in that Vigi PT and faked that to look like he fit in with the rest of the Vigis. No guarantee that it's the case, there is potentially a world where he was indeed trying to bait a scumkill albeit rather poorly, but it's a possible explanation on why he might feel the need to do that. This is that thing I noticed the other day, and if it didn't look like it was already coming down to our final big shot I'd probably push on that harder.

Fire is ultimately proving to be my biggest conundrum either way. I'll try to focus on more slots tomorrow, but my weekend has been rather busy and I've stayed up way too late as it is. I have to wonder if Fire makes anything about both the Day 1 and Day 2 elims occurring over someone poorly scumreading me though, since he seems to be shooting for those sorts of weird angles already.

On the contrary, do you think it's possible that Nero was partially scumreading Fire because they do not share a neighbor PT? Though actually given his sheer confidence in his solve, maybe that's not that farfetched. I thought we might have been onto something for a second with the claims, so I'm going to try my best to see if we DO actually have something that can avoid pure mountainous.

This is a possibility I wasn't thinking of, though the timing doesn't add up well to me. Nero's readlist against Fire was in 911, but I saw Fire's Vigi hint in 1127, with perhaps a lead-up to it in 1056. Unless Fire shows that his hint was actually earlier than 911, I don't think that's the reasoning behind the initial scumread at all. Glad someone was willing to look the idea over thoroughly like this, I'd rather discuss the proposition and talk it out than have the accusation go through perfectly smoothly. The latter would start to feel more like scum hoping for a mislim, and I'm a bundle of nerves in this game to begin with.

@Firebringer

Would you please point out the exact instance of you hinting at a Vigi shot on D2 to confirm it if it's not one of the posts I linked above?

Spoiler: Night action analysis maybe?

<can alolan raichu even learn cut? snip snip.>

Andante

Firebringer

Tejate Raichu

Hellbooks

/Save the Dragons

poe is a bitch huh?

Ignoring what I think of this case as I'm sure everyone is aware by now, note that the bolded names are of those still alive. Of those non-bolded, we have Andante, who was limmed; and we have StD who was presumably killed by a vigi. I would rather not worry about the possibility of SK right now, remember we actually would almost prefer an SK to be alive right now than not. My point is, StD is in my mind the only person Nero Cain would have bothered shooting. And since they all shared a neighborhood, it is very likely that all vigis used their shots "efficiently" if you will, i.e. vigis would probably have claimed their target in the neighbor PT. What this means to me is one of three things: Nero's reads changed after Andante's flip and as such he did not shoot one of us on this list, Nero wanted to avoid shooting someone on this list because that someone was in the neighbor PT, or Nero was roleblocked as Scorpious claims there is a mafia roleblocker in the game (it's even possible they were roleblocked for correctly picking out the scum within the neighbors). As for what this means to me or which possibility I think is most worth exploring, I'm not sure yet. I'll get back to you when my brain is moving at more than 1 mile per hour.

I can easily buy Nero shooting at StD inside the neighborhood in fear of an infiltrator off of this readslist, because the numbers and claims don't line up for the roleblocker to have successfully blocked any of the Vigilante shots. 3 dead Vigis + 1 dead Vanilla + 0 Vigi claims adds up too well. Presuming a Roleblocker exists, they hit either a Vanilla Town or Hellbooks the Doctor claim and effectively had no impact on the night actions.

Though it does bring up another oddity I've noticed with the night actions from the first night: Knowing now that there were 4 Vigilantes that were all likely in the same neighborhood, then which is more likely:

• -One of the Vigis shot the Mafia nightkill target (CSF? Dwlee?), effectively wasting their shot by doublekilling them.
  -Hellbooks successfully protected Andante from a Vigilante shot
  -A Vigi shot a truthfully BP Scorpius, and so the shot failed
  -A Mafia Roleblocker blocked a Vigi, making Scorpius a liar
  -One of the Vigis decided not to shoot N1

With the information we have now, it's really, really strange that there's exactly 4 kills on the first night with 4 Vigis and a factional kill on top of that. I was thinking there were only 3 Vigis originally because of this, but now that we know there were 4 it comes across as an unusual number.

Spoiler: A brief analysis of Frogsterking's "reads"

<begone, extraneous text>
Town: momo (Vigi Neighbor),

N_M

,

Firebringer

, Nero (Vigi Neighbor)
Town lean: Andante (VT), Cat (VT),

Keeper

,
Null: (rest)

Toog, Scorpious, Hellbooks

Scum lean: Radical Rat (VT)
Scum:

Magik, Tejate

<sniiiiiip>

Just to save everyone the time, I added the living people bolded, added specific living players into Frogster's originally non-specific null reads, and have included the flips of everyone who is not bolded. Now, normally I wouldn't really bother to analyze a reads list from flipped scum, especially not one who doesn't really seem to be making that much effort to live at the time of posting. But do you notice something interesting here? Frogster never puts a vigi neighbor lower than his catch all null, and in fact the only two he DOES express an opinion on are in his toptown. To me, this reads list put in context of what we know now lends some credence to the idea of a scum among the neighbors rather than just having a neighborhood for the sake paranoia hour in the PT. Given that half of his toptown are vigi neighbors, would it be a logical leap to say that one of his other toptown might be the scum in the neighborhood? i.e. FB or N_M

This is even more interesting with Fire coming out early today in 1395 and specifically making the first read of Day 3 for N_M as town as well. If we believe in town!Fire then I'd agree that there may be merit in such a read (which would insinuate to me that the scumteam would be among Keeper+Toog+one deepwolf among Tejate/a Not_Mafia that fooled Fire/a fakeclaiming Scorpius), if Fire is scum it feels like protecting an easily limmable buddy.

And lastly, something that doesn't need to be contained to its own spoiler for readability: at this point, I'm kind of willing to bet the farm on hellbooks being town. After rereading day 1, I honestly can't see their push on Frogster as malicious. It didn't appear like they were just going for towncred, they absolutely wanted Frogster dead for the same reasons I brought up later. I'm not sure most scum players are brazen enough to attempt a super hard bus like that early day 1, let alone make it anywhere near convincing. I also still lean a little town on Scorpious after an ISO skim, but not quite as much.

Scorpius' town result on Hell guarantees that I'm not limming Hell today even if not for that. I've already stated that Hell's protects match with their reads as of the end of D1 and D2, and I agree that even if Scorpius is scum it could be an easy thing to claim that the Town Doctor is cleared through knowing the scumteam already.

Game seems dead. Many of those of the town faction must be feeling defeated already.

Mostly just ran from my birthday on Thursday to a weird Friday nap that turned into a full night's sleep unexpectedly to spending most of my Saturday with a friend and freezing my fingers off playing disk golf in 23 degree (Fahrenheit) weather and snow/wind combined with a Euchre tournament. Doesn't mean I'm not feeling the pressure though.

[MagikHorse]

actually one more thing i remembere which is that fb, if you think its tej/magik that means that frog double bussed D1 which i will say is NOT like impossible (like it could have just been a kamikaze opening gambit from the scum team to bank up a ton of town cred) but i think it feels too convoluted for me to easily accept it as the truth

how is it a kamikaze openning gambit to push two of ur teammates in the way Frog was pushing tej/magik
i don't see how that is convoluted at all, when weaker scum players are in game they tend try to force situations of distance with partners that they don't need to which if its magik/tej and both of them are super active. Frog needs to interact with them in some way or else he looks weird. So why not force a distance by pushing em?

I don't see how that is suicide. Its more suicidal if both of magik/tej is town and frog was just going for most present players.

And what of 887, 1054, and 1235? You've claimed the entirety of Day 2 that it was nearly impossible for me to be scum off those interactions with Frogster, and it makes this complete 180 reversal of thoughts look incredibly strange to have forgotten something you mentioned thrice and seemed to hold such a strong conviction over being true. Even moreso when you keep pushing this "it was a double bus" angle as the best explanation on why I'm alive. 875 claimed it odd that I was alive earlier, but still wasn't enough to be worth mentioning more than once and fell to the wayside of the interactions before. Why is now any different from then?

Like, it's incredibly frustrating trying to figure out if you're just freakishly paranoid about me under Mislim and Lose type pressure or if you're intentionally trying to keep me as an open option despite all prior claims you've made.

[MagikHorse]

this speculation of me being in neighborhood is silly. don't u think nero would shoot me if i was in a vigi hood night 1 if i was in a hood? and that i would out the hood?
Nero was scumreading me all game, if i was in a hood with him and the neighborhood all panicked on each other last night, i would be the one he shot instead i think he shot STD over paranoia.

The point about Nero likely wanting to shoot you if you were in the hood is valid, I do believe he'd likely shoot you over StD if you were. Anyone outing themself as a hood member now would undoubtedly be suicidal at this point in the game however, at least without a Vigi claim attached to it and some really damn good explanations on why they're both alive and why their/someone else's shots haven't connected to anything.

[MagikHorse]

I can definitely see Pooky putting an all town neighbourhood in a game, especially when they're all vigs, Neighbour is a shit role where everyone gets eliminated eventually because "there has to be a scum in there", inciting that paranoia and wifom in a hood of all town vigs is definitely something I would do and I can see Pooky doing it to

this theory makes sense but also raises more questions and im not inclined to process it atm
also makes me paranoid ur neighbor but then i don't get why u would be alive at this point if u were.

I think said theory is more than likely correct myself, though I don't see the same questions you are. I haven't seen the source material myself, but if there was a group of gunmen with suspicion of a mole among them then throwing all the Vigis in a neighborhood instead of a masonry would be a flavor explanation for it with or without an actual Mafioso among their ranks. Suspicion of a mole is sometimes even worse than there being a real mole.

[MagikHorse]

this speculation of me being in neighborhood is silly. don't u think nero would shoot me if i was in a vigi hood night 1 if i was in a hood? and that i would out the hood?
Nero was scumreading me all game, if i was in a hood with him and the neighborhood all panicked on each other last night, i would be the one he shot instead i think he shot STD over paranoia.

wait a second -- why did you think that there was another vig though? are you making some deduction there?

Reread my posts. I was speculating Fire of being in the Vigi hood over one of his posts, and he's explaining why he likely wasn't in this response. Nobody currently is saying anything about there actually being an additional Vig, only suspicion that there was potentially a Mafia in the hood. I'm starting to think that assumption of Mafia being in the hood is likely incorrect.

Pedit: There's your answer Tejate, was already on that.

[MagikHorse]

Reread my posts. I was speculating Fire of being in the Vigi hood over one of his posts, and he's explaining why he likely wasn't in this response. Nobody currently is saying anything about there actually being an additional Vig, only suspicion that there was potentially a Mafia in the hood. I'm starting to think that assumption of Mafia being in the hood is likely incorrect.

fire said something about the "last vig claiming their target" earlier today

That was before the claims. Nobody claimed Vig, and the kill numbers otherwise make sense. Maybe you're onto something, why did Fire think there was another unclaimed Vig?

[MagikHorse]

this speculation of me being in neighborhood is silly. don't u think nero would shoot me if i was in a vigi hood night 1 if i was in a hood? and that i would out the hood?
Nero was scumreading me all game, if i was in a hood with him and the neighborhood all panicked on each other last night, i would be the one he shot instead i think he shot STD over paranoia.

wait a second -- why did you think that there was another vig though? are you making some deduction there?

Reread my posts. I was speculating Fire of being in the Vigi hood over one of his posts, and he's explaining why he likely wasn't in this response. Nobody currently is saying anything about there actually being an additional Vig, only suspicion that there was potentially a Mafia in the hood. I'm starting to think that assumption of Mafia being in the hood is likely incorrect.

Pedit: There's your answer Tejate, was already on that.

Then, a follow up question. If we're assuming the vigi hood was in fact all town and all of them are dead, does that make Scorpious' claim more believable to you as a townie claim? He's the only one here who's really claimed a role that has a somewhat clear tie in with the theme, at least from my view. And if there's no "mole" in the hood, then that's about the closest thing we have out in the open.

Given the tie-in to the theme, that question would be better spent asked towards someone who had not openly admitted to not actually watching the movie it was themed after like me. All I can say here is "I really have no idea".

[MagikHorse]

Like, at best I can say "maybe yes" because I doubt the main character was just one of 4 Vigilantes or an average joe, but that's about the best shot I can take at it.

[MagikHorse]

I'm absolutely committed to Not Mafia at this point. I've had my vote there for days now, I don't intend on moving it.

Even if the rest of the town isn't with you?

[MagikHorse]

how is it a kamikaze openning gambit to push two of ur teammates in the way Frog was pushing tej/magik
i don't see how that is convoluted at all, when weaker scum players are in game they tend try to force situations of distance with partners that they don't need to which if its magik/tej and both of them are super active. Frog needs to interact with them in some way or else he looks weird. So why not force a distance by pushing em?

im not up to date with "bussing meta" but i just have a hard time believing that frog would go about it in the way that he did. like he would just have randomly decided to name two of his partners and hyperfocus on them and ignore EVERYONE else. all the while lurking and drawing suspicion to himself
im not saying its impossible like esp with tej, i could see frog/tej because tej was a secondary partner. i could even hypothetically see frog/magik but i think magik is town outside of that interaction. but both just seems like weridly blatant and improbable

I don't see it as this was Frog trying to focus on his partners. I think this was 'im focusing on most active players and they are scum so i should't get much scrutiny' approach a newbie scum might take. And my idea is that Frog is playing on that newbie mindset of feeling it is safer to make inadequate pushes on teammates than actually make up reasons to scumread town. I don't think this is far fetched, it might not be "optimal" but i don't see why u think scum would always play to most optimal play. Like r u telling me he planned to draw suspicion on himself by hyperfocusing on the most active town players because that seems more suicidal than the alternate of safely distancing from said partners. Even if its just one of them being his partner its still safer.

This is like not a good rebuttal to what happened

Did you see the sheer number of my posts he pulled up? Is that what "not a lot of scrutiny" looks like? Are we playing the same game here? Frog isn't a "newbie scum" either, his join date is old and it appears to me like he has many games under his belt.

[MagikHorse]

Like, it's incredibly frustrating trying to figure out if you're just freakishly paranoid about me under Mislim and Lose type pressure or if you're intentionally trying to keep me as an open option despite all prior claims you've made.

I don't see it as paranoia. Theres a few things i know right now.
1) I am still alive in this game
2) Ur still alive in this game
3) I townread u all game.

So that leaves me thinking theres a very good reason we are both alive. Either scum think I can be misyeeted or the more likely option is that I been pocketed by deepwolf who thinks they are safe from me voting them.
And you fit that category the best right now.

I am very much leaning into my reads have been pretty bad this game and so i am not under assumption ive been left to just be misyeeted. I think under normal scrutiny your posts seem like town and ur pushing game forward but under closer inspection I don't see you actually getting to heart of mindset of players. Its more speculation of actions/possibilities and even stuff Ive considered on surface level. In fact while I don't remember any specific points I know uve been echoing some of the things I have said a lot of this game.

So no, I don't think this is just 'paranoia' ur literally at the top of my list right now because if anyone is a deepwolf. Its definitely you.
Tejerate could be town, I think he has pointed out better flaws in my thought process of how everyone been scumreading him including the people almost certainly vigged/misyeets. I still think its very likely he could be scum but if one of you two is scum, I am putting money on you.

I'm getting to the heart of people in a different way than you may be used to, and in a way Nero didn't particularly like either. Perhaps I haven't quite hit my full stride after not playing in nearly 2 years. I could say the same things about myself being alive as well, that I haven't been pushing reads hard enough or the scum don't see me as a threat to them. Even you've realized the latter, knowing full well that I was not dying in any world on N2 with the painfully obvious shot on Nero, and yet you deem me guilty because of it. I haven't been the most outspoken about my reads, or locking myself into a singular solve the way you and a few other players have, knowing full well that information flows and does not remain constant. I am built to bend, not to risk snapping by being that kind of stiff.

And if you are town, this thinking will lead us off a cliff into disaster.

I don't want to 1v1 you if you are town, knowing that doing so is tantamount to throwing the game for the town, but you are making it incredibly difficult to work with you. Double check the Frogster interactions and tell me that this is what a scum chasing after his buddy looks like. I dare you at this point. I am growing more and more frustrated with each passing moment that you hurl this upon me, blind to your own paranoia, assuming the worst intentions from my every move and completely unable to comprehend what lies at my core. If I were scum, why would I be one of the biggest components towards kicking Day 1 into an informed state? If I were scum and Tejate town as you're finally starting to play around with, why wouldn't Frogster go after Tejate first and leave me as the secondary option? Do you really think I can deepwolf this strongly, despite making an obvious and stupid mistake regarding HellBooks? Do you honestly believe I'd u-turn my reads on Hellbooks after discovering said mistake? Why would I bother to pocket you of all people? Off of a single game from years ago that I could hardly keep up with? You were hardly the towniest person in the game for you to be of that sort of value as a pocket to begin with. Not as bad as the time I was accused of trying to pocket the Day 1 elim, but it's very much a paranoid line of thinking whether you think of it that way or not.

You may call me lazy.

You may not like my methods of hunting.

But we do NOT have the time for this garbage if you are town. You've been making a whole heap of assumptions this entire day enough as it is. It's time to let that one rest.

[MagikHorse]

Like hell (the word in speech, not the player)... with 5 votes and presumably 3 scum the town absolutely must vote as a block to stand any chance at all. You've more or less been pushing completely against the grain with rather insufficient reasoning the whole day, which will ensure the town's defeat if you are in fact town without stronger reasoning to back it up than "I don't believe the claims" or "I'm alive, you're alive, I must be pocketed". Toogeloo's insistence on voting Not_Mafia out is similarly unhelpful for similar reasons, there's not much of a case being made by him either and the scum obviously don't have the numbers to try and arrange a quickhammer here.

I really don't see how this sort of play is supposed to help the town, especially knowing that you're basically scumreading me off of some utterly insane idea that Frogster's initial push was a scum bussing attempt (it's not, I think you're the only person who believes this at all), a distaste for my playstyle, and a ghost pocket (which I can potentially see how you'd think that at the least).

[MagikHorse]

I've never had a scumgame go on for long enough for any sort of pocketing to really occur, not in my memory. Not even I know if scum!me pockets people or not because, despite Frogster's claim of me being good scum, I've never lasted past Day 1 in any sort of viable state as scum and never put any sort of effort or focus onto one. One game I replaced out of, didn't really pocket anyone and only made it through part of a day before replacing out due to illness. Another I was mech screwed on Day 2 and surrendered to the town. The third was the one we shared that went way too fast for me to really keep up, and you ended up winning on your own because of the mechanics of that particular game. Is it something I'd focus on consciously? Hell no, I didn't in any game so far. Would it happen subconsciously? Hell if I know, there's no suitable data for me to look at in hindsight and the only previous serious pocketing claim I've had was also from town to town... supposedly pocketing a guy who was limmed D1 because I defended him against the loudest guy in the town. I may have underestimated your loudness as a factor, but I also believe same as I did then that a pocket with a decent chance at a day lim is also not very good and you were looking like that for quite a while with a fair number of people poking at you. If any reasoning holds out for me to avoid pocketing you, it would be that.

I'm holding out on calling you scum on a belief that you're simply wildly wrong town, and I thought as much was already clear from how I was talking to you. Yes, there's a chance I'm holding onto an early read tighter than I should again despite your Day 2 ringing no real bells at all for me, and I've been bitten in the butt by it before. On the surface it looks like scum sowing disunity with such radically different opinions from everyone else and the extra effort on what could be the final day, but given the nature of how it began it looks equally like growing paranoia of me being alive evolving into this mess we're in right now which could come from misguided town, hence why I'm more trying to understand why you're doing it over flatly accusing you. Instead of considering that I might be legitimately confused as to which it is you once again made the assumption that I must not want to push you but be scum nonetheless. That itself feels confbias as heck, like most of your case against me.

You've been guilty of throwing dirt at me all day, most of it which I can't even argue against because it's all bad assumption making regarding Frogster and my continued existence in the game, but me throwing some back to say "I think you're on the wrong track" is somehow bad? Pot, meet kettle. Most everything else is either disbelief that I'm actually hunting or not liking my methods (which no, you didn't directly say but rather pointedly hinted at by saying I "wasn't getting to the heart of players") so there's little I can do to talk without you bringing up those concerns in the form of more direct questions. It'd certainly help a ton more than trying to base me off of Frogster's play or other things I cannot prove or disprove, only point at and say "look again". That sort of push is infuriating at its core.

Regarding the assumptions you seem to assume that my problem is that you're making assumptions at all, which is sorely misreading it. The issue is the fact that most of these assumptions today are not agreeable whatsoever which hasn't been the case on previous days, and yet you're pushing them like they're hard facts despite nobody else being at your back. As I said earlier town must meet and agree with town on a day like today, and if nobody agrees with your points then sticking on them isn't particularly good without greater evidence, and I almost fear you wouldn't hammer when the time runs out if you didn't agree on the wagon. There is potential that doing so might not immediately result in a loss given the even number of players, but it is a concern nonetheless that also applies to Toogaloo as previously mentioned. You're beating the same drums repeatedly and not giving much if anything new for them. As previously said I don't think this is ultimately helpful for the town at this stage unless it actually gets some backing to it, but none seems forthcoming.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Fact of the matter is I am not voting HellBooks today in any world and no argument would be convincing enough, it is objectively terrible given Scorpius' claim. I will also not vote Scorpius without a far better case on them, and even then it'd have to be mind-blowing good for it to happen today. I don't believe such a case could possibly exist for Not_Mafia given their meta and playing standards, and will also not vote there today mostly in respect to Fire's claim and the excessive ease in pushing them. Currently I would prefer to vote Keeper or Toogeloo, neither have been doing much this entire game and could easily be coasting (in this order, Keeper's responses to being poked about their general lack of content has been worse between the two). No I don't have a lock on scum #3 yet, nor many clues on who that would be as of this time. I believe passing the day to night stands a good chance of not being an instant game over, but has little to yield short of fewer town needing to agree on the scum. I doubt the existence of an SK, Night 2's kill count is too clean and Night 1 didn't have any more kills despite there being an additional Vigi insinuating that a Vigi also shot the nightkill target/hit a protected Andante as the most likely actions. If anyone has pocketed me it'd be my own actions putting myself into Tejate's pocket more likely than not.

[MagikHorse]

Why do you think there's absolutely a scum between us?

[MagikHorse]

Why do you think there's absolutely a scum between us?

Well, I’ve read fire as scum this whole game. And someone, Maybe Toog? Was talking about town side being kinda meh with the state of the game. They were accused of ATe, I disagree..

I feel that.

I’m as good as dead tonight or blocked anyway so my motivation has been sapped. I have no idea what happened with the neighbors . I’m almost more interested about getting this over with and seeing what the hell happened.

But the short answer, is that you guys are still really into this while as much as I want to I can’t find the oomph.
The math isn’t there for us to mislim either.. so I think at least one of you is scum,, GTH I’d say just fire before both of you. But that is exactly why I’m hoping we get some 1v1 from you. I don’t see me going NM tonight. And obviously I’m not going with hell.. again math. Poe puts a high probability as one of you being scum, probabilities of you both are up their too..

So, one of us is scum because we've picked things up and have more WiM than this apathetic town? Why does having more WiM mean scum as opposed to "paranoid tunneling town meets town that is extremely critical of cases against them"? Like heck, the first two elims we're based off of reads against me. This Fire case is different from them both.

Despite me keeping scum!Fire in the back of mind and present as a possibility in my posts, I don't consider it the most likely thing in the world which is why I'm more interested in going elsewhere. The case against me began off of a paranoid thought of "I'm alive, he's alive, my reads must be wrong" and is growing from there into a deathtunnel. I find it less likely for scum to build a case off of that over town at this stage of the game, all the same as I believe his worries about being pocketed are also a likely town indicative point. All in all this case is simply built different from the other cases people were throwing out against me, and I've noticed.

Scum!Fire trying to bus me here is also something I'd be abjectly chewing him out for in the scum PT if this were the case. I know it's not the case already, but we're it true that we were both scum I'd see it as an unnecessary risk to tear down a scumbuddy that would be so deep and out of everyone's gaze since Day 1's case just to net Fire some towncred. I know how to read a room, with so much apathy among this town at this stage it would be much easier to case and elim a town target and guarantee a victory that way than for Fire to start lambasting me.

If even after this you're still utterly convinced of scum here, case us instead of sitting on the sidelines and watching it go down. Even if you die tonight, make sure we're set up as much as possible for the future and give us what you can today.

[MagikHorse]

2days and no wagons? What did I miss?

Side note I well and truely blew myself apart this weekend to the point there's a Strawman of me now.

Did you skip over the part where this is likely lim or lose?

I'm more certain that it's Mislim and Lose over Lim or Lose myself, given the even number of people.

[MagikHorse]

2days and no wagons? What did I miss?

Side note I well and truely blew myself apart this weekend to the point there's a Strawman of me now.

Did you skip over the part where this is likely lim or lose?

I'm more certain that it's Mislim and Lose over Lim or Lose myself, given the even number of people.

Why does this post read scummy? Why?

Can you break down the numbers as you see them?

I don't see why it's scummy unless you're insinuating I have TMI, even though I explained this previously. Just as a refresher and to expand on my earlier thoughts in extra detail, consider this:

• -4 people died Night 1 to 4 Vigilantes and 1 Mafia factional kill. This means there is a missing shot somewhere, and I believe the two most likely scenarios are that it either hit Andante with Doctor protection (due to the fact that Andante was generally considered suspicious to several players Day 1 but was read as Town by Hellbooks who claimed protection there) or that a Vigilante and the Mafia chose the same target.
  -4 people died Night 2 to 3 Vigilantes and 1 Mafia factional kill. This is the expected amount of kills with this number of attacking roles, with no more or less than expected.

Given that all the Vigilantes were in a hood with one another the odds of two vigilantes shooting the same person is nonexistant, and with no unusual or "extra" kills nothing at all hints at a Serial Killer or any other Neutral Killing role at this time. With 8 people remaining today that would leave 5 Town and 3 Mafia as the expected split (since 4-4 would be a loss already), which supposedly contains a Roleblocker/JOAT among the Mafia faction given your blocked N1 action.

5 Town and 3 Mafia is Mislim and Lose, since the day could be passed into night and, with no living Vigilantes left among the Town, it should be impossible for 2 Town to die during the night. Passing the day would simply result in tomorrow turning into a 7 player Lim or Lose, with 4 Town and 3 Mafia remaining among them.

If you can't get where I'm coming from after that, then I've got utterly nothing for you.

[MagikHorse]

Regarding the assumptions you seem to assume that my problem is that you're making assumptions at all, which is sorely misreading it. The issue is the fact that most of these assumptions today are not agreeable whatsoever which hasn't been the case on previous days, and yet you're pushing them like they're hard facts despite nobody else being at your back. As I said earlier town must meet and agree with town on a day like today, and if nobody agrees with your points then sticking on them isn't particularly good without greater evidence, and I almost fear you wouldn't hammer when the time runs out if you didn't agree on the wagon. There is potential that doing so might not immediately result in a loss given the even number of players, but it is a concern nonetheless that also applies to Toogaloo as previously mentioned. You're beating the same drums repeatedly and not giving much if anything new for them. As previously said I don't think this is ultimately helpful for the town at this stage unless it actually gets some backing to it, but none seems forthcoming.

i actually don't see u giving anything to convince me of something else entirely everything u been saying as of late is how i am just wrong.
if u want to convince me of something else. I will try to keep an open mind

Well, your case has given me very little to push against to begin with, no to very minimal evidence and all theorycrafting. That's why it's been so frustrating to me. Just what do you think I'm going to convince you of when it's mostly based on the actions of a dead scum and worries of a deepwolf? I can't make your heart of fear go away. Why do you think I care when I've already thought long and hard enough about it in a sole effort to figure you out?

No, this is a distraction we don't need right now and a waste of my time to address. Short of sorting you out, it has been.

[MagikHorse]

I just had a rather dumb thought, but checked on it anyways.

You see, I've been getting the vibe this entire game that the scum have primarily not been messing with wagons or shifting things about. Might come from the fact that I was pushing the first two wagons rather hard off of the cases against me, but it leads me to a conclusion that the majority of the scumteam is indeed among the lower impact players.

Day 1's lim happened rather fast once Frogster came in with his case. Either they didn't have the time for a counterwagon to form, or mostly had players without enough impact to do anything but bus.

Day 2's lim was slower, with Tejate rising slightly at the start of the day, then Save the Dragons took over, then Andante to the goalpost. Scum was easily fine letting the Andante push ride out. Even if you believe that StD was a push to get pressure off of Andante the only two living people on that wagon are Firebringer and Hellbooks. I've already said my reasons for Fire being town off of his paranoia, and Hellbooks is a Doctor claim that'll more likely than not resolve itself. I have serious doubts on that being the case.

Thoughts? Opinions?

[MagikHorse]

I have an answer, but it hinges on something I've already deemed unlikely for today so the connection goes with it.

We have also eliminated exactly 1 scum, thank you very much. Frogster was a player, as short as his lifespan was.

[MagikHorse]

Magik, may I ask who would be in your lim pool/definitely not lim pool? As I stated before, I'd really rather not be scrambling before the deadline and we're running out of time for that to not happen.

Darned mobile tiny buttons. I'm kind of hoping this game is solved quickly just so I can stop accidentally hitting "report post" instead of "quote".

I've already said my Lim pool is in Keeper/Toogeloo anyways, anyone else I'd need to see a case on to vote for. Exceptions may be made for hammers on anyone but myself, not that I think anyone thinks I'm scum but Fire.

[MagikHorse]

Truth is this pile of remaining players is full of hard to sort/low impact players in general, and that is really not something I'm well equipped to handle. Doesn't help that the paranoia on you Tejate is growing stronger either. Certainly giving me plenty to reflect on in the post game though.

[MagikHorse]

uaghhghhhhhhhh

That's a mood.

[MagikHorse]

Based on votes you two are a hard PoE currently because of the misyeet to lose situation. There is no case.

May the Serpents Kiss bite you firmly on your Bumbo.

i think this is ridiculous and survivalist but maybe town plays like that on MILO. its utterly omgus

This is a thought I shared but removed before posting 1604 but couldn't parse very well. I do find it a bit strange how quickly they backed off to this response.

[MagikHorse]

Toogeloo

Is this solely OMGUS, or is there more to this?

[MagikHorse]

From you, Toog, or both?

[MagikHorse]

Processing all this nonsense is a pain at work. At least I have this evening to look things over closer, but the flailing has been seen and noted for now. Whether it's townflail or scumflail will have to wait until I'm not rushing things.

[MagikHorse]

Got a case on FB beyond "I thought he was scummy D1 and D2", and some reason why that sort of paranoia isn't more likely to come from town?

That's what it'll take to throw my vote down there. We've had too much "this is a thing" and not enough "this is why this is a thing".

[MagikHorse]

Got a case on FB beyond "I thought he was scummy D1 and D2", and some reason why that sort of paranoia isn't more likely to come from town?

That's what it'll take to throw my vote down there. We've had too much "this is a thing" and not enough "this is why this is a thing".

How about we vote Fire , and if he flips Red we come after you next. This seems like you’re just stalling.

I was hoping hellbrooks was gonna follow up on wanting to vote keeper, so I encouraged it. Nothing… idk what to make of that.
My pool is still fire, keeper, Toog… like, I really hate how Toog just decided to become troll.
Like. Damn, man. Now? That’s the only thing keeping a slight shade of green. I just think he doesn’t gaf anymore and is just whatever at this point. Fire been coasting this whole day. Keeper, This is why I don’t like gimmicks I feel like you might be the closest to town but the damn gimmick defaults me to thinking you are scum, I’m sorry. The gimmick does not help your cause.

You want a case on fire, Horse?

He was saying he was scum for awhile… call him out on it and laugh…
Don’t forget. I’m still a cop… and we supposedly have a Dr.. ok mind made up.

VOTE: Fire

This is my final vote. I’m falling asleep as I type this..

That's something I had already brought up as NAI via meta on Day 1. First I thought it +town due to only having seen him do such as town (specifically in the Hydra named Good Luck Buddy in the game Anything uPick hosted by RadiantCowbells) until he provided a scumgame where he did the same in post 166. Fire calling himself scum, especially early on Day 1, is simply not a convincing argument towards him actually being scum.

So no, if you're going to say Fire is scum, give an actual reason instead of something I had already discussed and disproven early in Day 1. I also don't see why asking for a case is somehow bad when there's so much damn uncertainty at this stage of the game because

literally nobody has been putting forward any real casing efforts the entire third day, and I already called Fire's paranoia push on me as likely town and thus have claimed to be actively opposed to it.

VOTE: Keeper

You can join me here if you're still awake, but I will not go on Fire off of this "case". I get that you're supposedly a PR, but don't think that means I don't want a little reasoning given the circumstances!

This town is as good as dead, not because of the scumteam but because town is imploding on itself over posts just like this one and assuming the absolute worst of every single post they see.

[MagikHorse]

If Scorpius is town then we may no lim, someone probably dies overnight, and things continue on tomorrow in the same sorry, terrible state. I still have no reason to believe that a no lim is a loss here.

Either way I'm miffed at yet another unfounded accusation. Like really, when I've actively said "I'm not doing Fire today without a case because I thought his push on me was paranoid town" I really don't see why you'd go ballistic over that like Scorpius did.

Since you're actually seeming more reasonable and are still around Hellbooks, mind showing me where Fire was claiming Frogster wagon credit? I haven't noticed anything like that before.

[MagikHorse]

Like, "he's claiming credit for a wagon he wasn't on" is such a better case and one that would've actually been worth reevaluating over.

[MagikHorse]

and here i was thinking radical rat was scum.
i guess im wrong again.

at least my gut on frog was right.

but my point is that you didn't talk about Rat being scum or Frog being scum and you come into today talking about how your gut was right about Frog but you weren't even here while he was getting ran up.

I have no intention in arguing with u cause ur just gonna misrepresent everything i say. Just like you did yesterday.
Just keep calling me scum.

~~

I would take out Magikhorse also form this wagon being scum. Frogster interactions with him tells me no way they are aligned.

^But the thing is, if he were scum trying to push an miselim why would he choose the hardest target to read-pivot on

~~

hellbrooks/keeper for last slot of scum.
I lean on hellbrooks a bit here.

*could* point to fire/keeper buddies...

Hmmm, that

half

checks out. I do remember Fire legitimately being V/LA late Day 1. I'm gonna have to figure out exactly when that V/LA started, what he was saying in the meantime, and just how much of this is unsaid gut because he just wasn't here and how much is actually avoiding that wagon.

Will be back after a little bit of ISO diving to figure these points out.

[MagikHorse]

621 was Fire's last Day 1 post, and I recall him going on V/LA at that point. The Frogster wagon really took off after he posted his terrible wagon at 722. Fire's absence from the wagon and future commentary is understandable with that much being said, which is likely why Fire was saying Nero's comment was a misrepresentation of the facts because it would very much be.

That much being said the only interaction regarding Frogster on Day 1 itself was in 404 (which didn't age well given Fire's own fear over me today) and 609 before the Frogster case happened. Once again, I don't think that's particularly damning when basically everyone was holding their breaths waiting for that case too. Off of 404 I can maybe get a gut vibe of badness potentially?

Like, this is really a balancing act between Fire simply stating a gut feeling from 404 after life slowed them down when it would've counted over trying to specifically use it for credit in 868. Both worlds are plenty possible, but the evidence itself isn't damning.

[MagikHorse]

And it's all because I asked for a case on a player I wasn't scumreading and they didn't have the patience for it.

Gotta admit, that's probably the thing that disappoints me the most.

[MagikHorse]

Hellbooks earned that win, not gonna lie. It was by far the towniest scum slot out there, and I will say I 100% thought that it was legitimate. You pulled the wool over everyone's eyes and sold it so well.

Fire was more a pain in my side Day 3 than anything else though. I had some serious paranoia all throughout Day 3 before finally settling on the incorrect "Fire most likely town" conclusion, though had I should have thought something was up when you wanted to vote the "deepwolf" over

both

the claims you said were fake despite such absolute insistence that I was town for the first 2 days. Even then had you flipped red I likely would've chased after Not_Mafia after your defense of them early Day 3, why wouldn't scum!Fire try to shield an easily mislimmable buddy? Your disbelief in those role claims was a good way to make them look better were you to flip though, and I feel we were doomed to begin with unless it was specifically you who died. Both role claims would've been so much more suspicious being alive on Day 4 after your death, especially Hellbooks. With an essential guilty on Hellbooks by not dying,

The nonstandard Vigi modifiers were a serious slip-up as well for me, serving both to mask the Mafia Vigilante and make it look like all the other Vigilantes were otherwise legitimate. Had it revealed their loyalties it would've made it so much easier to process what was actually going on, especially since one Vigilante was actually just a Named Neighbor. Didn't help that not a single Vigilante shot actually killed scum, which likely helped bring about that apathy on Day 3 and with it all the extra stress and the terrible slog it became. Just... the game was really, really fun until Day 3, then it was just horrendous. Shooting Nero was 100% a bad idea, even shooting a limbait slot would've been better, and by having a town Vigi left he could've confirmed the other Vigilante Neighbor slot the Mafia had and saved us a whole lot of trouble. Had Nero lived, Hellbooks would've inevitably gone down Day 3 for falling short of that mark and speculation of a scum Vigi.

Personally I feel I rode my success from Day 1 in getting Frogster limmed into Day 2 and just let Nero take the reigns from there, content with my position until my time came to react to yet another bad wagon. I still think that, despite my flaws, I still played the best town game I could. At least I caught one of them so hard that nobody in their right mind would've backed away from it, and I'll take that with me to the bank. Nothing against you Frogster, but your case really was

that bad

, and it belied your intentions way too much. Take it as a learning experience for next time, if you had more WiM and weren't so fine with directly contradicting your own claims or just casually chatting and ignoring the situation after people started to turn on you there was a chance you might've been able to wiggle out of that.

All in all well played scum, town please try to pull yourself together more, Vigis take some aiming practice, and see you later maybe. I really am thinking I might have a better time trying to run games instead of play them, so we'll see if I can pull out the WiM to do that. Last time I wanted to do that I just sat on my behind for 2 years and did nothing, maybe this time will be different.

[MagikHorse]

Really though, the Vigis tried. I can only imagine the pressure of that here.

[MagikHorse]

What I really wanted was a STD flip d2 and then to shoot hellbooks in the night. I prob should have not shot koba n1.

Yeah, it would've been better to see that slot actually post something. Going there was kind of just random.

[MagikHorse]

Magik - I was really unsure how to handle u and just my little push i was trying to be as cordial about it as possible and i feel u tried to escalate it at every instance. I thought town me would have further pushed into toxic territory but i explicitly decided to ignore continuing engaging cause i didn't want to engage to create a toxic 1v1. I wanted a friendly 1v1. I thought it would be really nasty. Overall i think u should be more solvey in the game, u provide alot of analysis but u don't really push it in productive areas i thought.
It seemed more like u just were someone taking notes on the game and commenting as a witness to it rather than player and that was kind of one of my arguments against u that i would have fleshed out as an attacking point.

This is about how I felt about it myself. Surely some of that was the rust of not playing the game for nearly 2 years, but not all of it. Early Day 1 it's a good style to adopt since nobody's going to be solving the game that early anyways and it rather rapidly pushes people to a higher information state, once you're there its usefulness kind of tapers off. I got a little too alright with maintaining that sort of supporting style and found it too difficult to make the actual decisions I needed to later in the game, relying very heavily on Nero Cain to carry me through Day 2 off of my Day 1 towncred and failing to carry myself through Day 3 properly at all. Tejate had the WiM to potentially carry it too, but it ultimately came in too slow and too late.

Really though, I felt like your argument was a lot of words but little substance to begin with, a lot of claims where most things were assumptions about dead people and nearly no substance to back up what wasn't.. A case built on "I think X, but I have no way to prove it and it's an out there idea" is already a bit hard to chew, which was mostly why I found the case more annoying and frustrating than effective. I know you pointed out that my countercase was just me shouting "you're wrong", but the main bulk of that case felt like thin air to begin with due to its absence of actual examples (something I bemoaned from the entire town in the final hours), and I guess in the end it may really have been built like that. I'm still clearly not used to articulating arguments against such an example-free case, might be something to work on in the future as well, but holy cow you pulled off the paranoia angle well with that hollowness and panicked fear.

[MagikHorse]

Really though, I think the better move would've been to just ignore me and push on Tejate or any of the lurkers and just go with the flow. My Day 1 would've proven to be a hard thing to convince people to side against due to the Frogster interactions, but Tejate had plenty of suspicion for the first two days that could've potentially made for a convincing case and Keeper really offered little to the game at all and would've been another easy push. I guess people just really don't like me being alive or something, since every day saw a case against me of varying quality.

Either way my point was certainly not to be uncordial. The anger and frustration just arose way too fast at a case too empty to push back upon and caused me to lose a little bit of control, and I spent a little while before bed just trying to get my emotions back in check afterwards. The actual anger and frustration was wild, and yet my test is usually

so tonally flat

that few people can actually tell when my emotions are starting to run rampant. As a general rule though, if I start saying "hell" instead of "heck" (and not referring to Hellbooks), I'm probably rather peeved already. Same thing if I start spacing my sentences out strangely for emphasis. If I start trying to use other curses as well, you know I'm absolutely off my rocker angry. 1517 was probably the angriest post I made in the entire game, and even then I reigned it in a lot to consider a world in which you might just be a paranoid townie afraid of ghosts. Even if it was wrong in the end, I feel it takes some character to even consider it after running both prior cases to the ground.

So, I guess if you want a cordial 1v1 give me something to actually fight instead of frustrating me with thin air and supposition? That really does feel like why that all went so haywire so fast, and I nearly took you up on your offer to 1v1 you to the ground when you threatened it over frustration alone.

[MagikHorse]

WiM = Want it More, effectively a shorthand for a player's drive and determination. Lacking WiM means you're being apathetic and don't seem to have much interest in the game at all, having a lot if it means you're pushing and forging ahead strongly with a clear investment.