A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Regfan]

Don't think I'm joining any other games in a while so I'll probably be going all out in this game, sorry for the impending walls.

Also please don't N1/N2 me!

Got a few strong town reads and a few more weaker ones. Strongest town reads by far are Ed, Pandora and Tyene. Really like Ed's intro into the game and his initial vote and timing is probably what I would have done, also while I don't agree with the Feysal 'slip' I think his pointing out of it is a town-tell plus his reaction towards Pandoras FoS rings genuine. Similarly like Tyene pointing out the Feysal thing at the exact same time with the constant shifting of votes/choosing and scumhunting looking very legitimate. Pandoras alternate head revealing Quilfords account without asking him first is a big town-tell, think as scum he'd have asked Quilford if they want to try and hide identity to make meta reading them hard, especially since Quilford isn't a strong scum and his comments about redFF read as town, also like how there were in-thread hydra disagreements; think as scum they'd have conversed outside of thread whereas as town they'd be scumhunting individually initially. Got weakerish town reads on Hasdasg, Feysal, Benmage, Plum, Pappums and Molla, if anyone wants any of those reads explained in some detail or a summary of them ask.

I don't think Feysal assuming that it's multi-ball without massively elaborating on it is a scum-tell at all, it's the sort of assumption I can see him making and right now I think his play matches his town meta closer than his scum meta. Also Faraday has made several comments to me in the past that he thinks a 28 player game without there being more than one night kill a night is a bad idea and would last forever. I could see this being Scum/SK rather than Scum/Scum though but Scum/Scum is more likely than anything else right now with the only real way it being a single scum team is if there's some sort of choosing mechanic daily.

Not sure what to make of Starbuck at all. Had a fairly strong scum-read on her earlyish comments. Really hated her attempt at creating a differentiation between voting and choosing rvs votes and her explanation behind it was completely illogical and her Post 71 of "I haven't slipped because I"m not scum" is extremely overdefensive with the self vote attached being weird but Post 75 has my head in knots. I can't make heads or tails of at all, it comes across as her not understanding the situation or what everyone else is talking about with the "choosing myself because I'm town and have nothing to lose" follow up post being genuine. I'll probably devote some time during my run tomorrow thinking about it but leaning slightishly towards her being town right now.

The few scum reads are incredibly weak right now. Something feels off about Minimum but I can't pin-point what exactly, if I had to specify it's probably a lack of town reads stated by them or reads at all though willing to give them time

to convince me I'm just mad at Mina for picking CES over me to hydra with.

. Also really don't like SnowStorms entrance, think for his first game on-site and in a theme he knows things about as town he'd be more light-hearted or at least have a welcomish/hello sort of post or joke but instead his vote on Benmage in Post 63 feels forced. Didn't like Salamences comment in Post 56 either but might be worth checking his meta out quickly if I get time later. Didn't like MoI's self-choose either but that was a super minor thing.

Oh and Pandora, who's your second hydra head, Quilford and who? Can't work it out from your posts and am fairly curious.

Summary for those who are lazy and will inevitably skip my post (Which you shouldn't do):

Town (S->W):

Pandora, Tyene, Ed, (Large gap), Pappums, Hasdasg, Benmage, Plum, Molla, Feysal, Starbuck.

Null:

Lyanna, Mocking, Staeg, Petyr, Hyperion, Red, SoO, Shadow, Bvoigt, MoS, Plez, Jal, Stefan.

Scum (S->W):

Snow, Minimum, Salamance, MoI.

Vote: Snow

Choose: Minimum

[Regfan]

You think it's an assumption you can see Feysal making. Tierce doesn't. Can you explain this dissonance?

Tierce is right in that Feysal does often elaborate on some things in great great detail but I don't think a conversation about the likelihood of multi-scum is needing of walls of text like he normally spends on the things he talks about, especially when there's the choosing mechanic to talk about instead.

You seem reserved, Regfan. Can you explain how you got your 'fairly strong scum-read on [Starbuck's] earlyish comments'?

I did explain my earlish scum read on Starbuck but it has to do with the fact that her focus and comments about people 'whimsically' throwing around choose votes doesn't show any real thought process behind it, thinking about it for a minute would make someone realize that the difference between that and RVS voting is nill and the lack of that consideration makes more sense as scum posting without thinking into things too deeply and her explanation behind it in Post 42 makes little to no sense. Her vote on Feysal with the comment on the multi-ball also came across as sheeping alternate counterwagon.

Oh and I didn't say that you commented on RedFF, I said your alternate head did.

[Regfan]

Stefan, ED's Post 14 isn't him stating that we should be sending a townie, he's instead saying we should send someone scummy, that way either we hit scum or we remove a scummy player. It's actually a very logical and sound usage of the power and I see no contradiction with that and his later posts. I think your scum-read on him is trash dude and I would much rather hear your thoughts on other players that are non-ED and non-Feysal in terms of scum-reads.

[Regfan]

I'm not fully following your scum read on Feysal either; if you too thought that multi-scum was very likely then Feysal running with that assumption isn't a scum-tell at all. Also Quilfords 'scumhunting/theory' argument is debunk by the fact that Feysal usually spends the early game on theory and less on scumhunting. Plus his 'chosen vote' was from hours into the game nearly so don't see how you can consider that to be a strong scum-tell.

[Regfan]

...I'm not liking stefan's posting at all, but it's only gut and I'm not sure if it's because of the language barrier or not

[Regfan]

Sigh. It submit instead of quote. I'm feeling the exact opposite way Staeg. I'm finding his 'getting into the game' to be super genuine, it all comes across really natural and while I don't necessarily agree with his content and reads I think he's town.

[Regfan]

Fairly sure Staeg is town as well this game.

So why does Minimum not have more votes at this stage?

They're a better choose vote than a vote vote. And while I may understand your reasoning of "I predict I'll die early anyway so I'll take the shot" it's not right; it's much better to be aiming at securing a suspect on that giving us what is essentially two lynches and shots at getting scum with a backup night shot if we're wrong.

[Regfan]

Why would they be a better choose vote than lynch vote? I'm still trying to wrap my head around why it's better to choose a scum read, but if I do understand it properly, wouldn't we be better off choosing someone we're less confident in being scum and lynching someone we're more confident in being scum?

Simply put I'm not super confident that they're scum and in the case that they're not I'm very happy for those two to be controlling the vig power in comparison to a lot of other players in the room.

[Regfan]

First of if everyone could attempt to cut down on their spam posts it'll be greatly appreciated, we don't need this to turn into a repeat of Mafia Behind the Maidens D1 where it lasts 80+ pages and leads towards a lot of players being dissuaded to keeping up with the thread.

I have a growing pool of strong town reads right now, very confident that on top of Pandora, Tyene and Ed that Benmage, Molla, Cow, Staeg, Lyanna and MoI are town. In fact would nearly bet the game on them all being town. BBMollas reaction test on SS and move towards Sala then stating that Sala has a town-post comes across as legitimate and matches his town meta quite well, plus his whole "vote; shadow it's like what I'm like as scum" post is a town-tell. Benmages posting is very very genuine, his list and reads and 'slow this down' attitude are big town-tells and I'm getting a similarish vibe from him here than I did in White Flag where he was town. Staegs reads are all fairly good and his frustration with Shadow1 and people reading Starbuck as town are big town-tells, as is his 'I'll elaborate on Molla town later down the line", as scum he'd have fabricated reasoning there.

I've also got a weak town read on Jal; his inability to pin-point his reasoning behind his Tyene read comes across as genuine town. Also feeling even better about Plum and like SoO's phrasing of the 'WE KILL SCUM' in Post 342. Also thought about Starbuck a bit today and I'm inclined to agree with Nacho, the whole "Give it to a VT so they can shoot" and 'self-vote' given her stance/thoughts on what the choose was is a fairly big town-tell and while I hate to admit it, she's very probably town.

Still don't have many scum reads. Snows still my strongest scum-read and no, he's not 'noob' or 'inexperienced' he has a lot of experience over at westeroes where I'd argue players are better at keeping up with spam-post-days due to the 32 hour deadlines and no, entire reason behind why I think he's scum isn't all meta based. His entrance into the thread is still very awkward, even though he said 'hi' in the main thread his post ressembels him just finding a trivial angle to discuss to seem contributory. I also don't find his flavour analysis to be a town-tell, think it's fairly null. Lyanna did point out the big thing though, he's claiming that Benmage is one of his strongest town-reads however still has his vote on him; it's possible he's forgotten his votes on him but that would mean him having no scum read to have wanted to move towards all game. Also not a fan of Hyperions posts so far, the last game of his I saw him play he obvtowned it up and had a lot of good analysis, thoughts and reads, this game his posts seem to be lacking that. Not sure if it has to do with the game-size or alignment though.

Oh and uh, where's Zoraster. I've seen him posting elsewhere on the site from memory but nothing here.

Salam

, your 'catch up' post was completely useless to me. I much rather hear your reads and thoughts right now.

Meh. Suffice it to say I think having an early death being meaningful is a better move than it not. But as I asked Minimum - what possible scum motivation do you see in self-Chosing. Because you said it gave me a slight scum read and the above is just ‘mechanics’ disagreement.

I don't see any motivation for scum

wanting

to be chosen N1 but was unsure of your reasoning of it initially, couldn't pin any town motivation behind it really at the time but your explanation is very believable and I'm liking majority of your other play; your push on Minimum is super natural.

Regfan, how do you possibly see Edd as town here?

I've explained the town-read on Edd already but lets put it this way; I have meta on the posting head, Tammy also has a lot of meta on that posting head, everything they've done ressembles their town play quite strongly and I really suggest you give that a lot of weight. Also their early comments about the usage of the choose is very town and the pointing out of the Feysal 'slip' is a big town-tell as is the fact that their posts and scumhunting show a lot of consideration.

I'm not convinced. It was an assumption nobody else had noted until that point; it's also a fairly setup-relevant assumption: it's not the kind of thing anyone would bring up without substantiating it, least of all a player who is supposedly fond of making lengthy posts. I don't get why you're not finding it scummy.

Were you getting a scumread off Stefan when you posted #113 and #114? Because you've written them in a negative/skeptical tone, and I don't understand how you have a strong townread on him in your next post. You said you found his "'getting into the game' to be super genuine", but all I can see in the three posts between your change in read is a

very

murky stream-of-consciousness, and some weak one-line reads.

I really think the Feysal multi-scum thing is a dead end dude; as scum he'd be careful to reveal something like that and as town I can see him jumping to the assumption of multi-killers or scum, sure no one noted it clearly before that but it was something I was thinking for sure and I think it's also something I'd have touched on very minimally if I brought it up. Again think the choose means his theory-focus is there instead of anywhere else. I didn't have a scum-read on Stefan in #113/114, actually had a gutish town-read on him but I try and avoid gut whenever possible, was hoping his reaction and response to my calling his reads trash would help me get a better feel on him and it did, his whole 'not back into everything full' 'not 100%' is genuine and town. Also the difference between Starbuck and Benmage is that Starbuck spent much more time focusing around it and I've seen him derp in that sort of manner as town more times than I can count. And (As you can see above) I still think scum is likely inside of SnowStorm, Minimum but also think Hyperion is very possible scum.

Updated:

Town (S->W):

Pandora, Tyene, Benmage, Edd, MoI, Staeg, Cow, Molla, Lyanna, Plum, Starbuck, Stefan, Pappums, Pless, Jal, Feysal, SoO

Null:

Bvoigt, MoS, Mocking, RedFF, Shadow1, Petyr

Scum (S->W):

Snow, Minimum, Hyperion, Salam

[Regfan]

Quilford, what do you think of my Snow read?

[Regfan]

CES, I don't find anything in your posts even slightly town, convince me I'm wrong?

Tierce, the only thing I get from RedFF's ISO is that his attack on Starbuck in Post 67 is awkwardly phrased, other than that he's very null.

Edd, I'm very very very confident that you're wrong on Pandora, they've dropped a lot of town-tells, if you want lists of them then 1) Shadoweh revealing Quilfords head without talking to him about it; Quilford hates scum and is bad at it so she'd have got permission from him before revealing that as scum. 2) Their hydra disagreements in-thread, posts about it and discussion to reach where they are right now is very town, there's a bunch more reasons too so you should really look elsewhere, plus the reasoning of 'he defended a scum-read of mine thus is scum' is bad. Also can you explain the Snow town read for me? From what I gather it's an activity = town thing but he wasn't very active until he was called out for being inactive so I don't see that being a town-tell.

Snow, see the thing you did jump in to discuss was fairly useless and saying 'there were more useless things I could have talked about!' doesn't change the fact that it doesn't come across as a natural entrance into the game. And I would have preferred that you came in joking and roleplaying for a post, it would have shown that you weren't worried about peoples opinions of you but the fact that you're stating that you avoiding doing so since it draws attention to you makes it look as if you're scum that thought they could slide into the game and go unnoticed.

@Anyone Choosing Minimum over voting her

– please explain why you splitting the pressure on the slot in a way that is not Pro-Town.

Gone over this before. If I was 100% confident they were scum then lynching them would be the right move. I'm not and both of them are fairly strong players so choosing them is a much safer route, that way if they're scum they die still and if they're town they use the vig-shot and if they're town they'd use it effectively.

[Regfan]

Pless, I'll re-explain my town read on Tyene in the morning but it was that strong to begin with and nothing of her posts have made me consider otherwise. I suggest reading through this it's the ISO of the only game at mafiascum that I've played with Hyperion and the play there to here is very very different.

[Regfan]

Rock-Solid scum reads on D1 are difficult and a rarity and weakerish scum reads aren't super accurate but they're significantly better than random lynching whereas rock-solid town reads on D1 are very easy to get, town hunting is actually ridiculously easy especially in the early game period.

Pless, the town read on Tierce is partially meta based but also a lot based on her play; I've seen her play this same way and have this same attitude in a few games where she was town. But specifically Post 49 of instantly noticing the same thing Edd did as the 'slip' is a big town-tell and her comments directed to Feysal sense. Also the sheer number of times she moves her votes/chooses even switching them around here and there is a big town-tell as it shows that she's thinking things though to a level higher than she would as scum. Her "Starbuck isn't for lynching" comments are a massive town-tell as that's how she handles her town-reads even if she believes they're harmful or playing badly. Plus her explanation for her initial choose vote on Tammy being that she trusts her to use the gun correctly if town and wants her out of the game due to clash in their play is something that is spot-on with how they've interacted in prior games.

Hasdasg, I'll try and explain why this matches Edds town-play but Tammy can probably jump in and explain it better too. Arthur is a significantly stronger town player than anything else and he loves to jump into games, put himself in the midst of things and take stances, he's done all three of those things this game. The way that Post 14 is phrased comes of as very natural because he's stating an opinion on the mechanic, then proceeding to ask others thoughts on it. Then look at the phrasing of Post 48 and Post 52 especially look at the timing of it, only just a few minutes after Feysal makes his post Edd posts stating that he thinks Feysal count have potentially slipped, then goes and does some research into the OP for a few minutes locking his vote in on Feysal when he finds no mention of multi-faction in the OP. It's a really really natural thought process. Also look at his frustration in Post 88 him getting annoyed about pushing on a scum-read makes a lot of sense as town whereas not sure how that sort of frustration by a little bit of suspicion makes sense as scum there. The jump back to Starbuck in Post 260 shows that his reads aren't static and that he's actually re-reading and re-considering everything which is a big town-tell. That should be enough.

Re: Regfan's 345 - again, for the millionth time I ask: how is posting 10 posts of 50 words worse than 2 of 250?

People generally look at the number of pages first, if they see the game has exploded with 10+ pages they're more inclined to want to replace out or procrastinate instead of getting to the game (Pappums is a perfect example of this) whereas walls and longer posts do much less of that and in worst case the people with less time or who are lazier can just glimpse/skim read them (Which they shouldn't do!) so it's much less harmful.

[Regfan]

Regfan, you didn't post a lot in Chrono Trigger Mafia, correct?

Content wise? Majority of it, anything that was more than 2-3 lines long was mine but post number wise I was only about 1/4th of it.

[Regfan]

Yeah, you and Farady are pretty polarizing. I find myself agreeing with you, that last post especially, but there was something I didn't like about your posting in a different game... Good Vs. Evil maybe. Were you town there? I seem to recall thinking you were scum in some game for posting too... nice I guess would be
the word? But I ended up wrong. Can you point me to a scum game of yours?

Yeah, I remember you suspecting me in Good vs Evil, we were both town there. Last scum game I have is Fantasy Camp, haven't been scum onsite in a completed game since, have been scum a few times since in westeroes though but the games are alted and hard to read.

[Regfan]

Minimum, your posts are still missing the one thing I want to see from you, reads alongside with reasoning. Your responses to MoI/MoS/Stefan are very easily fakable and don't actually tell me anything about you at all, plus I think the debates and conversations with them are fairly useless.

MoI and Cow, is your scum reads or desire for Shadow to die because you're confident in him being scum or because you think he's useless and a good policyish based lynch or shot because I just re-read everything of his and it actually comes across as very town (Though fairly sure MoI won't agree with the reasoning behind it), his lack of care about the image he was putting forward of himself in his earlier posts is a decent town-tell and matches his town meta whereas his play in Kdubs game where he was mafia was relatively different. His walls behind what he thinks is optimal town play comes across as him really believing it and his stance of "Want to wait until later on Mina/agree with her post" is super natural, plus don't think Shadow!Scum would protect Mina!Scum if they were partners and don't think he'd defend her if she was town as it'd just be increasing the odds of the lynch being moved to him or him being run up if she flips scum.

Don't know if anyone answered this, but yes, Hyperion is GreatJim. Oh wait I remember Regfan posting a link to a game they played in on site.

Regfan

- Hyperion was Olivia Dunham in the Fringe game. He was also Aviendha in the WoT game.

His play has changed a lot from when he was Aviendha, a lot so comparing him to his play in that game is useless. As Olivia his play was actually decent and his analysis and comments in the game were genuine, plus his comments and analysis in the game that I linked of me playing with him were of a super high quality, something that his posts in this game don't show at all. I'll agree the difference isn't a super-scum-tell but it's most certainly not null.

[Regfan]

I'll devote some time later tonight to parse over Minimums posts and reads list. Will also take another look over SnowStorm too then.

Pless, Hyperions game on-site here isn't that old at all, in fact it's relatively recent and I don't think his D1 play in Fringe was bad at all, I liked it and don't see any similarity there to here so not understanding how you find it the same.

Edd, here's a bunch of my previous town games if you want to take a quick skim later; Good vs Evil, Newbie 1259, Newbie 1256 (Original), Behind the Maiden (As a hydra called Duplicity, was third party but played for the town), Open 418 (As a hydra called Soben) and Strategy Mafia.

If you believe play is optimal town play, you will say that regardless of alignment. I have some weird thoughts on things(like people who claim scum are more likely scum) that other people don't agree with, but I still push it regardless of alignment when I see it. That's where my desire for shadow to die comes from, to answer that question and also reply to your town read on him for what I believe to be a null tell.

I don't fully agree, there's some things that I think are optimal play that I'll avoid discussing as scum even if the situation arises because I think discussing it would garner attention which is something I'd be avoiding at the time, and sure Shadow was getting some attention but I think his scum play here would be a lot less 'lets jump in and do something that'll get me attention' and more him trying to hide into the pool of lurkers. Not going to argue over this too much though, especially if you're willing to take more of an ear to my Edd town-read instead because I'm far more confident in that one.

[Regfan]

Got caught up with a lot today, going to get to this game tomorrow and make sure I get a re-read of Minimum/Snow done then.

[Regfan]

Sorry about my abscene the last two days, finally moved back home and didn't get any internet access last night so woke up early trying to get some done before work. I don't neccesarily agree with all of Mockings points in Post 514 and would have prefered to see her take actual stances on players with reads stated in it but I think the angles that she's discussing with what she's using to back each one up hold quite a lot of weight and comes across as town.

I'm also not seeing anyones scum-read on Pless at all, finding thier scumhunting, lines of questioning and pushing and prodding to be a big town-tell, their attempt to get me to explain my town read on Tierce and then progression to continue to think she's mafia elaborating on their reasoning is very townie even though I think they're wrong on her (Like really really wrong, Zar you should trust me on this read and her defending town-reads is her town-meta). Simiarily I like the way they're trying to get more out of Edd but fairly sure he's town too (His explanation over his paranoia about me actually makes quite a bit of sense so I think you're pushing a dead end now). Got a guttish sort of weak town read on Bvoigts posts so far and liking Jal more too. Nothing stands out as that weird about MoS's play at all, he's generally fairly useless on D1 and enjoys just getting through the day as town, as scum he tends to be a bit more involved and actually follows along much more closely to make sure he doesn't tread on too many toes so while his play here is frustratingly bad I think the chances that he's town are rather high. Also liked Kortuls Post 648, it shows that he's putting some real effort into reading into specifics rather than just coming in and jumping on a wagon which is a big town-tell.

Not a fan at all of Shinoris replacing in posts, the fact that he jumped right away on everyone that was garnering suspicion comes across as off, willing to wait for his dump of information and analysis he's promised soon to judge him completely though. Also have hated Greens posts, about the only thing I agree with him on is that Minas frustration here is what I would expect to come from her as scum and town; she's known for showing frustration when run up as town and from what I know of her he'd be using that angle as scum to try and force town-tell or seem genuine, either way don't think her reaction is a massive tell for either side.

I really didn't like SnowStorms Post 561 and Post 566 at all, both feel forced and come across more of him being annoyed due to caught-for-the-wrong-reason, the fact that he claims to be annoyed at being pushed on while having zero scum reads and pushing on no one else himself makes no sense since Town!SnowStorm should be focusing on re-reading and re-reading and re-reading to find a scum-read but he seems fine having no suspects.

There's a few too many players that have seemed to have faded into the background like Molla now that's making me uncertainish on my town-reads on them, going to need to sit down later today and do a bunch of re-reading and re-analysis on them because right now I can't get a town(s)->(w) order out at the top of my head being confident in it at all which is worrisome.

Also, it just occurred to me Regfan's reasons for trusting him were terrible; they were literally, "Shadow can't be scum, because scum never argue hard against someone's lynch!" Changed my mind. I'll give Shadow

a few more RL days

to look like Innocent Shadow--even if he thinks no one will listen to his precious cases, that doesn't stop him from making them.)

That's not even close to what I said and I know you're not generally the type to purposefully misrepresent someone so interested in hearing whether you skimmed my post and only got a whiff of it or what here. I said that I think his carelessness about attracting attention and the way he's gone about it is a minor town-tell as was his reaction to your wall post, never said it was impossible for him to be scum and it had very minimal to do with him defending against someones lynch.

Can you explain your 'growing confidence' in Plum being town because their last few posts have weakened my town read on them substantially to the point where I want to go re-read them later when I have the spare time to do so. Also want you to point out Snows specific instances of town flashes.

[Regfan]

Um Sala, what makes you think Minimum haven't been paying attention? Because I think they've been keeping up with the thread better than most. Also why is Feysal a better shooter than any of your scum reads and why is MoI second in line when he's a town read of yours?

[Regfan]

Benmage, I will make a significant effort to cut on the length of my walls then. In return can you explain Mina/Salam/Molla/Snow town-reads for me.

Pless, there's a big differene between what I consider to be stronger town and scum reads, I'll admit my scum reads can often be hit and missish like in WoT though I think the only scum player I town-read there was Matt, the rest were all in weaker scum tiers and in White Flag my town-read on Johhog wasn't based on Isa so much but on his past meta. Either way as Tammy put it she has a habit of reading Tierces play as scum and I did the same thing in Kdubs game but when you learn that certain aspects of her play are just what she's like then it's much easier to get a read on him by looking at what she's actually done in the game, who she suspects and why and all of those look very very town this game. Also I get your reservations about Edd but I disagree, they have far too many town-tells.

Sala, I still want you to answer Post 685 for me please.

Right now here's where I'm sitting:

Town Reads (S->W):

Pandora, Edd, Tyene, Pless, Lyanna, MoI, Benmage,

Hasdgfas, Staeg, Jal, Starbuck, Bvoigt, Kortul, Mockingjaye, Shadow.

Need to focus on re-reading:

RedFF (?), Feysal (?), Plum (?), Shinori (?), Salam (?), Greenknight (?), MoS (?), Molla (?), Stefan (?), Amrun (?).

Scum Reads (S->W):

SnowStorm, Minimum.

I would bet the game on the bolded being correct, legit 100% certain on those reads being right so if I die they're never for lynching, ever. All my other reads can be taken with a grain of salt though and most of my scum-reads are still very weak in contrast to my town reads. I'll try and take my laptop with me to the club so I can get through the need to re-read through pile and actually read through Plums Green case properly.

[Regfan]

Feeling significantly better about Molla again, his interactions with Tammy come across as town and I like his town-read and reasoning behind it on Shinori; it being that teaching a new player is easier in a hydra as town because you can discuss players, reads and situations whereas as scum it's a lot more about avoiding the spotlight. I also like Shadows "finally can post this game about Sala", I know in a lot of my past games I was dying to be able to reference games that lead towards my reads waiting for them to end so it's a relatively big town-tell and there's much better places for people to be choosing than him, much.

Really don't like DCL's replace in at all. It's actually terrible, he jumps into a discussion he has little context about and then proceeds to state reads on a very minimal percentage of the playerlist not mentioning or commenting on a lot of the bigger things going on. Not just that but his Jal vote and scum read is "Sheeping Edd" rather than saying why he thinks the slot is scum at all. Comes across as him not even really reading the thread and latching onto a few things.

I...don't know what to make of Stefans latest posts, they contain very little stances and signs of scumhunting and seem incredibly fluff-based. Tierce, mind taking a look at him for me because I found his very early posts genuine but thinking he might be scum now.

Edd, I don't see your Jal scum-read at all, I don't think his play this game and the game you linked has that much differences at all and I think the only real difference activity/stances ect. has to do with this being a larger game and I don't see his SnowStorm vote as bad. Also MoI is town, please move your vote.

I still need to focus on re-looking at Plum and their cases on Greenknight and Bvoigt and want to take another look over at Mockingjaye and Salam too.

Town Reads (S->W):

Pandora, Edd, Tyene, Pless, Lyanna, MoI, Benmage, Hasdgfas, Molla, (Gap), Shinori, Staeg, Shadow, Jal, Kortul, Feysal, Starbuck, MoS.

Null/Need to focus on:

Plum (?), Salam (?), Greenknight (?), Mockingjaye (?), Bvoigt (?), Amrun.

Scum Reads (S->W):

SnowStorm, Minimum, Stefan, DCL.

[Regfan]

Lyanna, I'll admit the fact the hydra-partner of Shinoris isn't 'new' does weaken the town-tell but while he may be nervous and weak as scum I don't think his solution to counter that would be bringing into it another player he has to have hydra-interactions with since they'd have to fake read disagreements ect.

Tierce, redeeming factor of Amruns slot is that it was Pappums and I had a town-read on him. Need content from her soon though, like real soon.

DCL, the point and comments you were trying to 'catch yourself up with' were useless and spending time trying to try and get aquainted with it is and was pointless, the time would be much better of served actually reading the game. And I don't expect 28 reads at all but 5 reads with 1 of them being entirely a sheeping of a town read is literally no contribuition and content whatsoever, there's no need to post snippets here and there when you're not caught up with the game. Natural town thought process is catch-up, then post reads. Not post 1-2 reads then catch-up, the later is more likely from scum wanting to seem contributory and active. The "Adding more later" does nothing for me, especially when your reads and post insinuated you'd read a decent portion of the thread which isn't the case if those were your only reads that you had to elaborate on. Oh and also can you link me to a town and a scum game where you've replaced into please.

[Regfan]

Finally got around to re-looking at Plums cases, a lot of the reasoning behind his Bvoigt scum-read is fairly sound, only issue I have with it is that a lot of it revolves around Bvoigt not providing

real

content and contributions and I've seen him play a very very lacking town-game in the past so I think it's entirely possible he's just badtown here. Will do the meta-check on him later and let you know what I find. Still not sure what to make of Greenknight, his play here feels very off in comparison to G v E where he was town but it's not really reminding me of his scum play either, bleh, will focus more into him later for now though I still think Minimum/SnowStorm are better lynches than anyone else. Deadline impending means it's consolodation time as well so Lyanna/Cow/Salam and everyone else with scum-reads on Minimum should move their choose vote to them because I'm not seeing Feysal-scum at all here.

DCL, I still want links to games where you've replaced in as town and scum.

Benmage, your 'noobtown' read on SS makes no sense, while this may be his first game on-site, he's played

a lot

off-site and isn't new to mafia.

[Regfan]

Fair enough. Just don't slot Stefan away and forget about him because he seems like the sort of player that can fly under the radar if allowed. I'd prefer

SnowStorm

/

Minimum

by quite a bit, the attitude from 'We're not actually going to get lynched today, wagon will move happens all the time' to 'Greenknight guaranteed we're getting lynched!!!' reaction towards Greenknight feels super unnatural looking back at it. Really think their play has been very off this game and not finding anything that really makes me think they're town at all but Greenknight choose is better than a Feysal choose admittadly.

[Regfan]

There's part of me that wants to believe the mason claim is fake but I don't think that's what Snow would fake-claim at his first game on this site where he's relatively unaware about which roles are used often plus the legitimacy of his claim will be much more obvious later.

Nacho, Kortul is town. Very confident in that right now; while his 'scumslip' that he's pushing on Shadow isn't strong it's not something that scum would make up and attempt to push on someone that's easily pushed otherwise like Shadow. Furthermore his replace in posts and content have all been good. Really shocked that you can even potentially see him as scum right now because he's bleeding townienss. I don't really like any of the current wagons all that much. Going to do a bunch of re-looking into Salam and the meta check on Bvoigt but think this is better than both right now;

Vote: Stefan

Amrun

is very un-amrun-like.... Which shit happens... and no way do I see scumAmrun trying to tactically lurk... I digress, not this spot today.

I've seen her strategically lurk as scum before. Might not be the case right now but don't rule her out due to it.

Spoiler: For Mina

Also, didn't Shadow call plenty of attention to himself in AFFC?

I have little to no memory in his play in AFFC, will take a look at it later I suppose though.

I feel like we're reading completely different threads if you thought Plum's Your Mamma looked scummier later on than in the beginning. But I thought Nacho's posting felt pretty town (particularly his reaction to being accused of attacking easy targets, his wanting a strong bandwagon, his interactions with Shadow, his backing away from a scum read of us earlier than they had to).

I didn't/don't fully agree, his cases are fairly sound but the way he brought them up and pushed them looked as if it was just for show at first, I didn't like his period of inactivity between his initial posts and the case, I know Nachoscum likes a good bit of lurking and his play there fitted that with the case being the perfect way for him to be 'active' as scum. Eh. I mean looking at it again yesterday when I re-read over it I don't feel completely the same way; think there's a decent chance of him being town but that posting/section isn't something I understand to change someones scumish/nullish read of him into a town-read.

You posted this on Page 4 of the game. Our most recent post at that point was on page

two

. Did you seriously expect us to state town reads at that point?

Yes. I did. I don't normally post into a game until I have reads/something legitimate to discuss to avoid fluff posting and while I know you and CES aren't the same way none of your early posts showed any real sign of scumhunting.

[Regfan]

Nacho, convince me your Kortul scum-read isn't bullshit.

[Regfan]

Choose: Kortul

Thanks for killing my town-read on you Staeg. Post 648 shows that Kortuls actually reading through the game super carefully looking for information, not just information to fabricate reasoning to vote people with but information that would better help him attain reads, it's a very town-motivated mindset and not one that scum take when replacing into a game. His overthrought in Post 795 about the usages of the second kill despite it being spoken by everyone prior to him comes across as him really wanting to state what's on his mind whereas as scum he'd know posting something such as that has potential for drawing fire towards him and know that there'd be no gaining in doing it. His Post 1000 is another townish-tell, previous post of his shows that he still suspects Snow despite his mason claim stating that the reasons he suspects him are still valid so him checking up on the likelihood of his claim being legitimate flavourish is very natural. His taking into account his reads on the wagons in Post 1073 is again a town-tell and his attempt to get more infromation on the bvoigt case is too. Also the fact that when reading through Shadow he didn't just state posts he disliked but also linked to one that he did in Post 1081 is a big town-tell, scum don't go into an ISO going 'how can i find them scum and town', not at all especially not when they're planning on voting the person.

[Regfan]

Regfan, don't waste your vote.

There's a few townish things in Bvoigts ISO that make me think he's town and the case on him seems a lot more 'bad player doesn't know how to contribute' rather than him being scum so not at all inclined to move there so sell me on why Salam is a good lynch right now or join me on Stefan.

[Regfan]

Sold on Salam being a decent alternative and much better than Bvoigt.

Unvote, Vote: Salam

MoS, read Post 1095, then explain to me why Kortul is scum.

Stefan is town bro.

Mind explaining the town-read on him for me, also explain your scum-read on Feysal because I'm not seeing that either.

[Regfan]

This is depressing. Minimum is not getting lynched or chosen despite majority of the room voicing a scum-read on the slot and instead weaker players are being pushed instead for reasons that sum up to them being weaker. I want Minimum in a noose before day 3 at absolute latest. I still absolutely despise the Feysal and Kortul choose wagons, Greeknight is a much better choice since Minimum is now impossible.

Unchoose, Choose: Greenknight

Staeg, which of the things that I posted in Post 1108 are player-based tells on him and can you link me a single game of his that proves such because your continued vote on Kortul is disgusting, you should at least be able to read him and see there's significantly better targets to go to.

Salamence-slot is overwhelmed townie. Swing those wagons elsewhere, please.

I have the feeling that this is two town wagons. Therefore scum are content to look good sticking to their guns, have no reason to conform to a lynch because they can twiddle twiddle and it really doesn't matter for them in the end who ends up hanging.

I think this is very possible. Really looking at this position I'm not confident that either will flip scum and my vote has come a 'less sure this one will flip town compared to the other one' which it really really shouldn't be. I'm not finding a wagon that I can get going that's decent and will get support though. I can do Stefan, DCL, Minimum, heck even Starbuck right now isn't too bad a lynch despite her claim so if you think any of those have a chance to go through let me know.

[Regfan]

Edd, I want your scum-read on Feysal and town-read on Stefan explained asap please.

[Regfan]

Feeling much better about the Sala slot after Saps catch up posts, need to re-read it again later tonight to make sure but I'm growing more and more confident that both wagons are town here and we really really need to band together and move wagons elsewhere so anyone else that thinks these wagons are both town as well should join me on DCL or state that they're happy lynching Stefan. We still have 3 days so I don't want to hear 'no time!' excuses from moving.

^Oh look scum Feysal nitpicks and reaaaaaaachhhes to conveniently vote GK... just call it him over me and be done with it. SCUM SCUM SCUmm mc.scum.

I like DCL, or really Shadow at this point. Against Starbuck and Minimum...

I don't think Feysals mafia and if he dies over Greenknight I'll be super disappointed (Hint, this is where you change from Feysal to Green). Also I don't like a Shadow wagon but I can do with DCL though right now my preference probably still is one of Minimum and Stefan but there's no support for either of those.

Unvote, Vote: DCL

[Regfan]

Kortul, just a heads up since you're likely from a non-English first language country it's prefer not prefare. Also could you please look at DCL/Stefan as first priority.

[Regfan]

Jal, from memory every game that Faraday has hosted has had full fake-claims and not just fake-names.

Benmage, Stefan is a better lynch than Shadow. Also do agree with your scum-read on Nacho now, really think he'd be doing or at least trying to do a lot more here as town and him just sitting there riding the day out doesn't come across as town nor does Plums scum read on Kortul.

Unvote, Vote: Stefan

Unchoose, Choose: DCL

[Regfan]

MoI, while you're here can you move your choose vote from Greenknight to DCL, no point keeping it on a mason claim.

[Regfan]

I continue to dislike this growing Feysal choose wagon, him ISOing someone and stating reasoning on them before moving his vote to them even if it's the counter-wagon towards him is something he'd do regardless of his alignment really because he's not one for reason-less voting. I agree with nearly all of his town-reads and think his obsession with Starbuck is somewhat of a town-tell and actually do think there's a chance she's scum even after her VT claim. Really not getting the case or reasoning behind the votes on him at all DCL is a significantly better choose vote so those stating they have him as scum should be moving to him.

Benmage, I don't find Post 522 a town-tell from Stefan, he wasn't going to be asked to replace out and he would have known that much so it's an empty statement.

Right now I'm at about:

Strong Town Reads:

Pandora, Edd, Tyene, Pless, Lyanna, MoI, Benmage, ABR, Molla, Kortul, SnowStorm, Greenknight, Sapor.

Weaker Town Reads:

Staeg, Shadow, Jal, Feysal, MoS, Bvoigt, Mockingjaye.

Null Reads:

Shinori, Amrun, Starbuck.

Scum Reads:

Minimum, Stefan, DCL, Plum.

With the strong town reads being super super super strong. Please let at least one of the scum reads pool die at the end of today though.

[Regfan]

How the hell are we getting vanity wagons at 60 hours to deadline? Regfan, you should be ashamed.

I have a town-read on Shadow and on Bvoigt, while we need a lynch I still rather it be on someone that I think has a reasonable chance of flipping scum and none of the options available for lynching right now have that. I want one of Stefan, Minimum or Plum but it seems like I won't be getting it. Note this though, if I die tonight all three must be hung, none can get to lylo, I want that followed because I think lynching in there will hit minimum two scum.

Underlined is multiball-invalid things, bold are player-based tells and italics are points I disagree that are towntells.

If you're going to rule out the things you've bolded as town-tells due to multi-ball than nearly any town-tell at all used in the game can be voided for the same reason, his genuiness in scumhunting, posting and assessment is still a town-tell and he's still not up for lynching.

Wait a second, I'm stupid. So regfan asks for my meta on replacing into game. I give it to him, he doesn't mention it at all and puts a vote on me. If he were town and had read what he had asked for, (it would only have taken 5 minutes or less) I highly doubt he would have voted me. which then leads to the conclusion that he is scum and ignored the meta because there wasn't anything in there he could use to frame me.

I took a look at both games and didn't find many similarities between either game and here at all so discarded it.

[Regfan]

DCL is right in that he didn't bring up meta initally, I did by asking for links to past replace games but I don't see how his catch up post here is similar to either.

Edd, MoI's pushing on Minimum is super understandable, they're actually one of my strongerish scum reads right now and I'm not trying to convince others to lynch them either but am repeating my scum read on them, there simply isn't anywhere near enough traction to get that moving again today unfortunatly, the case is the same with me wanting Nacho lynched, it's a growing in strength scum read but only 2-3 people have him as scum, everyone else have him as town.

In the meantime, I really have no idea what to do with this vote.

Join me on Stefan, we can still flash wagon this, really go ISO him and you'll see what I'm talking about. Plus a bunch of people have him as null/scum so he is viable if someone else helps me push this through. (Lyanna, you should join me as well, this is super possible).

[Regfan]

*groan* 15 votes in 45h, Regfan? I guess we can reach that, but this is such a sad lynch, I don't even have a decent read on him one way or another. And with how late it is at the moment, I'm not about to start now.

I'll give you a recap of his posts then, he's been just about all over the leading wagons today, was on ED initially when people had scummish reads on him, he joined the Feysal choose wagon, joined the Minimum lynch wagon, the shadow lynch and choose wagons, the bvoigt wagon and the DCL choose wagon.

His posts don't show all that much scumhunting at all, he's really just *there* but not doing much other than asking fluffish questions and joining large wagons.

[Regfan]

I'll have more time for this game in a few hours when I get a break but I still prefer Stefan > Bvoigt, the fact that he claimed with so few votes on him, stated he's a VT but is avoiding stating his character name makes no sense, if he thought he was really in threat of being run up and lynched I think he'd state his character name at the same time, his reasoning behind withholding it doesn't make sense either. And unless I'm mistaken I remember Tyrion yelled "For westeroes" when charging into a battle (Battle of blackwater?) which would make Post 112 a crumb for Tyrion too.

Either way I'll be back later and if there isn't enough votes moved towards Stefan then I'll shift my vote.

[Regfan]

Just got a minute. I'm pretty sure if DCLs town I'm biting the bullet tonight and if he's scum there's a good chance I die too so I want to get the following very clear:

Pandora, Tierce, Pless, Lyanna, MoI, Benmage, Edd, Molla, Shadow, Sapor, Kortul and ABR (Cows slot) are

NOT

for lynching in the next few days, they should be off the table, there's a chance scum have fake claimed masons here because PoE leads to things being fairly wonky and would make sense if Green/Snow weren't town plus I had scum reads on both before their claims, either way they're not for lynching yet too, time will play out their alignments.

I want Plum, Minimum, Shinori, Stefan, Starbuck and Seraphim (Amruns slot) dead before lylo. Heck way before lylo.

[Regfan]

I don't think Shadow faking what essentially is a guilty on Bvoigt here as scum at all, it'd be suicidal which unfortunately means that my town-read on Bvoigt is wrong and even worse it means that Nacho wins a round. I'll probably take a look at the wagon again yesterday because I don't see scum hard-push-bussing on a lynch rather than potential choose yesterday. Also can we please for the love of god not rush today, I want time get a re-read of a bunch of players in.

I'll take some satisfaction in being right on DCL originally though was second doubting the read a lot during the night and spamming Faraday wanting to know if I was being vig shot or not. I don't think the mason deaths mean as much parnoia-esque stuff as Tierce/Tammy seem to have run with, think it's much more likely scum wanted to avoid the possibility of cross-killing knowing that it hurts both factions (Chrono Trigger, GvE some examples of it being the case) and decided it'd be safer just to hit masons and remove clears but will be going through a few of my middle-ish tier town-reads today in a re-read.

Zdenek, I don't think your Tierce scum-read is right at all, I'd suggest re-looking at that, the only point of yours on her that has some weight is her choosing DCL and starting a wagon on him there rather than on the votes but even that is very minimal thing considering everything that was going on during the back end of yesterday. You should catch up re-reading the whole thread properly though, then would be very interested in your reads on everyone else.

Shinori, you should out whatever information you have. It sounds like it's relevant to what's going on today plus I don't foresee much harm in it.

Kortul, the enemies of the Lannisters were the Starks (Mostly eliminated by book 5), Greyjoys, Tyrion (If he's in the game he's likely a SK), Stannis/his army and the Targaryens so Mollas message pretty much confirms that it's multiball with the factions being Stannis / Targayren.

[Regfan]

I just got some clarification from Faraday that everyones jailkeeping votes will be made public tomorrow in a vote count of a sort so instead of having us all arrange to vote 2-3 players that are fairly universal town-reads I think it's flat out better for everyone to just decide their jailkeeper vote privately, this way we can base reads of it later and it means that scum have very little information to work with when factoring in kills or who sends in the kills.

[Regfan]

Hmm.. you probably shouldn't have said that. For example, I interpreted the jailing as the mod will announce the

numbers

, not the actually people who voted where. If scum saw it like that too, they could've sent in their votes for someone to try block a PR or something.

So I have a neat question here, why the hell would you ask this and why would you tell everyone about it if it's true? This is not the kind of information town should be looking for. Anyone asking for clarification about if their jail choice is going to be outted should be kicked in the balls.
(I see Edd said the same thing. Too little too late I guess)

Simply put because I clarify every little thing with Faraday. Faradays later comment in Post 1659 hinted very strongly that revealing of names and such would be the case so it's not outting anything that scum don't already likely know and if they didn't the odds of it being revealed via one of them asking themselves, someone else bringing it up or Faraday making it more clear in the thread are super high so I don't see the harm in revealing it earlier rather than later so we can organize a proper jailing technique or plan for today (Which would be everyone just sending in their vote on a town-read they want alive rather than a pool of 3).

DCL/Jal/Regfan scumteam. Bvoigt/Staeg/MoS scumteam. Starbuck might be some weird third party. [Snip]

WHAT'S LEFT(the lynches after the above pile):

Petyr Baelish7) kortul, 18) Benmage

For one if you think I'd buss in a multi-ball on D1 you're kidding yourself or don't know me at all and for two you've dropped your 'super-mega-strong-town-read' on me because DCL was defensive to me pushing on him (Which is likely because I was the only person focusing on him at the time and if I continued it'd likely lead to his lynch.) For three I want you to explain to me why Kortul/Benmage are in your nullish tier, think both are relatively obvtown.

I'm leaning town on Benmage, but there were a few things that bothered me with his early play - some buddying and I don't like that he called for snowstorm's mason buddy to claim. [Snip] My read on Benmage has shifted to leaning scum. He's defended DCL, bvoigt (who will likely flip scum), he demanded that snowstorm's buddy claim and now he'd prefer to lynch the claimed power-role. All of this taken in combination makes him pretty likely scum.

I don't think buddying is a scum-tell for him, think he just does it naturally, I remember him doing it to Llamarbale in White Flag where Benmage was town. He didn't really defend DCL in fact I'd argue that the way he reacted to him is significantly more likely to make him town, his reaction was the way that DCL claimed is town but that DCL still needed to die, I remember a conversation and interaction between the two where Benmage was telling DCL that he had to die for the good of the town with DCL arguing, that doesn't come from partners, not a chance. Also his defending of Bvoigt is something I did at the time too as was his fight towards different lynches, both of the wagons came across as town D1 (Sapor/Bvoigt) and it was a constant fight to try to find a better compromise lynch.

I have never seen Regfan as scum. Can he not fake his town meta?

No, I can't. I mean my scum play is relatively effective, if someone didn't know my meta at all and I was scum against them I'd be very likely to win, think I've only been lynched 2ish times in 10 scum games but my town and scum play have a lot of differences in them. I absolutely detest being scum and it comes across in my play a lot, get very dis-motivated, lurk quite a bit and all up don't contribute much time to 'thinking' about the game.

[Regfan]

Finished going through a bunch of ISO's. Still very confident in Pandora, Lyanna, Benmage, DEdd, Tyene, Molla, Pless, Kortul and Sapor being town. Also now confident in Shadow being town too, don't think he'd fake this as scum and fairly confident that Zdenek is town too, will never understand the mass amount of people flaking from that slot though. My town-read on ABR (Cow) and MoI have weakened a little bit, about level with Shinori, Feysal and Mocking now. Eh, Plum is nulltown. Think there's a good chance that Minimum/Staeg contain a scum and still have to re-read Jal and MoS later.

(Re:Starbuck): You seem to have no problem with calling other people town. Why do you hate to admit that she is very probably town?

Because I find her play disgustingly bad.

[Regfan]

Edd, no, I didn't 'Push him with a fiery passion' but I did bring him back into the focus of potential lynch and choose candidates and the 'you just point out things that anyone else would already see' has got to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard said in mafia, everything literally everything that happens in-thread are things that 'should be seen by everyone' but that doesn't mean pointing them out is useless, it brings it to the forefront, lets others get opinions on it when in many cases it would have gone unnoticed a lot of the time. Also #892 was a response to DCLs #881, not a summarization of my read on him and in that post I asked him for his scum/town games, when he ignored it I re-asked for the games again. And I voted DCL over Stefan/Minimum who I preferred at the time because a Minimum lynch was impossible, it'd be tried all day and there just flat out wasn't the support for it at all and from memory I went DCL over Stefan at the time because you yourself stated you didn't want Stefan and was looking for a lynch that would have the highest chance of going through in my scum reads. Also I'm pretty damn sure that DCLs whole push on me was him attempting to try and create paranoia of 'oh he's going to shoot Regfan if we give him a gun so we shouldn't choose him' rather than anything else, go back and take a look, that's what he was playing at with it. Worked in a way too, I was super worried that I was going to get vigged at night.

[Regfan]

What the fuck is with the same few slots constantly replacing out.

Umm, no? If he was town there was no way in hell he would've actually vigged you. Idc what he actually said, I am 99% sure that he would've ended up shooting someone else. But instead of wasting time on what could've been done, etc, I really don't see why he couldn't have done this and be your partner also?

And as long as Lyanna/Tyene/Magna/Shadow/Plesszar/Pandora/Sapororerint/BB/Zdenek/Shinori/Feysal/Albert are not lynched, I don't think it can turn bad for town.

Eh. Disagree. Think if he was town he'd have vigged ignoring everyones requests and Post 1458 in particular worried me. Either way I think his end of dayish push on me was a massive attempt at getting the choose votes of him by appeal to fear and nothing more to it. Also I'd agree with those 'never lynch' list if you remove Feysal/ABR/MoI (Think all 3 are town but wouldn't bet the game on it) and add Benmage and Kortul.

[Regfan]

We're not lynching until Maguatroll catches up on some of the reading and posts his thoughts as well as all the people who just got prodded (Feysal/Mocking/Starbuck) come in and post. I still think Shinori outting whatever information he has today rather than in the future is better.

Also bleh, Ices PM-Posting means the slot is probably scum, I don't see any other real reason for that question to be asked.

Scum
Tyene Sand (Tierce)

You're really wrong on this read. You really really are. I would bet almost anything she's town. I suggest stepping back and re-reading her ISO later on, you'll find that her scumhunting, demeanor and play is actually incredibly townie despite her mind-changes on a few people. Her paranoia about scum in the strong players is super genuine and the manner of her pointing out the Feysal multiball 'slip' as well as Ices PM-posting 'slip' are extremely town.

[Regfan]

Pless, I'll print out your analysis and read it over on the way to work tomorrow, will let you know what I agree/disagree with about it then. Not understanding Ices conversation with Faraday, the context given really is super vague, think it's probably just best to leave the slot until tomorrow and then get a full-claim and a more detailed explanation. Oh and Starbuck seems to have been posting elsewhere but not in this game the last few days despite Faraday sending out 'Day started' PM's.

(Kortul isn't scum)

[Regfan]

Think it's better if we don't put forward lists and instead just have everyone jailkeep vote a strong town read, it'll do the same thing but provide more uncertainty for scum on who they can and can't kill safely. Also you being jailkept means you being roleblocked and we don't want that.

[Regfan]

Pless, finished going over your analysis, agree with the sheer majority of it but there were a few small things you got wrongish. Bunch of notes I had written about it were; - From your Stefan wagon analysis Jal, Kortul, Staeg and Sapor look the worst. - Think your focus/scum-read on Plum based on their avoidance of commenting on Stefan is far too strong, think the lack of them talking about it has to do with them being fairly inactive and that's about it, there's other things of theirs I don't like but this isn't one of them, also think their DCL choose had to do with them having a town read on Feysal and DCL being the alternative which is fairly naturalish. In your summary I'd move MoI below the line and move Feysal/Plum up one rung equal to everyone else below the line. - You're right about Benmages meta. - Not sure what I make of your Minimum/DCL anaylsis, will rethink on it tomorrow but overall I think I'd have Minimum lower on the rungs. - Mockingjaye/DCL is something your whole analysis has made me have a look at and think they work as partners, DCL ignored Mockingjaye and she ignored RedFF/His slot for majority of the game plus she rushed over him stating he reads as 'genuine' while going into depth on details about other players, reads somewhat as her not knowing what to say about him.

[Regfan]

I want to hear from Magua before we lynch, he needs to stop abusing me in PMs and instead post here.

(I've sent my jailkeep vote in.)

[Regfan]

Scumhunter replacing in means this game is going to turn into a trollfest, if I die at some point make sure that everyone ignores everything he says.

Pless, I think most of the people rushing and pushing for the day to end sooner rather than later are doing it because they're too lazy to contribute and are happy for the game to just ride out, don't think it's an alignment tell though. Also I still think Kortul is town, much lesso than yesterday because his play today hasn't been super townish and his Stefan vote wasn't as natural as others but still overall I'd slot him in the town category.

Magua, explain to me why Shinori revealing whatever information he has now is dumb because I don't see it that way at all. Think it's better if everything is just laid out on the table now and we have time to assess it and evaluate it while there's little other discussion points going on. Not just that though but wasting a jailkeep on him over players that are obv-town and actually contributing is stupid as well as the fact that if we reveal it now scum have less chance to plan and react towards it whereas waiting for a future day means scum might be able to work out what he's talking about and know how to deal with it. Oh and you should totally grow some balls and learn how or at least attempt to read me plus you should and better go reread D1, there's a shitload of content there and a lot of obvtown reads to get.

MoI, think the game you're thinking of was Lost Butterflys Scummies game.

[Regfan]

And I agree with Magua here ... the deaths of Snowstorm and Greenknight (especially him given that DCL could have killed ANY obv-Town he wanted) means that to me there definitely is scum in the obv-Town group. So your "lets protect obv-Town" leaves me a little confused and cold. If obv-Town from Day 1 was such why those two dead? Yes, I understand that it is possible this is Multiball and a obv-Town got protected last Night. That still can happen tonight then.

I think it's fairly likely that the mason deaths are both from the same faction with a doc save being on an obvtown from the other faction. I also think the mason deaths are scum attempting to eliminate PoE clearances and prevent a potential cross-kill, think I went into this earlier but scum crossing killing early in a large game like this kills both teams chances of winning so shooting people they're super confident flip town such as masons make sense. At the same time lets say that there's 1 scum in the 'obv-town' pile, blocking them isn't actually a bad move at all since it'd prevent them from sending in the kill which would force scum to either 1) Take a gamble having the 'obvtown' person send in the kill and possibly be blocked or 2) Have their scummier member send in the kill and potentially be caught by a watcher/tracker/alternate roleblocker.

[Regfan]

Really surprised to see you say this. I'll take it slow, so you can tell me where you fall off.

(1) - Shinori's information is not a straight up guilty, else he would've outted it.
(2) - If Shinori's information is a straight up innocent, he should not out it (it's not due to the questions he's been asking, but I'm just being complete here)
(3) - So Shinori's information is of an imprecise form, either of a pseudo nature ("I roleblocked X and there was a missing kill", "I saved X and there was a missing kill," etc), or of the form "One of X, Y, Z is scum."

In all those cases, given that Shinori will be alive tomorrow, there's zero reason to out it today. Outting it doesn't help, but does give scum the ability to plan around the information (shoot/not shoot someone depending) because they have more information than we do so can make more use of whatever it is that Shinori knows. Especially given multiball, I do not want to do anything that might reduce the chance of crosskills.

For the most part agree on (1), agree on (2) though it's obv not the case and I think it's some form of (3), I also don't trust him to be analyzing it right at all, the massive flaw in outing it tomorrow is that scum likely will be able to piece together what information he has or what he's on about tonight putting together what they know or at least plan out for a few likely scenarios whereas him just outing it today puts people on-the-spot about it, which is the ultimate aim. Also if I've guessed at what information he has then him revealing it is going to impact very minimally on the likelihood of cross-kills. Now I think you can agree this jailkeep thing means we can keep a strong town player alive which is a massive gain, especially if we stop a kill being successful at the same time doing it, so having him out the information now means we don't have to have jailkeeping votes on him and therefore can have votes in better places. (This whole argument is mostly a waste of time truthfully given the sheer number of jailkeep votes already sent in, but fairly sure you're wrong about it being dumb to out the information.)

PS: This'll likely be my last game in quite a while (Want to take a 6-8 month break at least) so don't be lazy and actually read D1 please.

[Regfan]

Staeg, let me make sure that I get this completely right. You claim that you investigated me N1, then come end of N1 and start of D2 you state that you have 'bad guttish feelings about me' but don't claim any information, the only way that it even makes an ounce of sense is if you 'guiltied' me in which case you'd come out stating and claiming your guilty and your Post 1995 states as much. So you investigating me, getting an innocent and then stating a scum-read on me makes no sense whatsoever. I know your online now so want to explain it to me?

I'm super confident in Lyanna, Edd, Tyene, Magua, Zdenek, Benmage, Shinori, Pandora and Molla being town so they're a waste of a godsent choice. That leaves Minimum, Mockingjaye, Staeg, Kortul, Shinori, MoI, Plum, MoS, Feysal, Sapor, Jal and Scumhunter left. MoI is townish enough to not need an investigation on and Staeg/Sapor are not worth guarenteeing to be alive come D6. Only decent godsent choices are then Minimum, Mocking, Kortul, MoS, Plum, Jal, Scumhunter and Feysal. Out of those my preference would probably be Plum > Mocking > MoS > Minimum > Feysal > Jal > Scumhunter > Kortul.

Sapor is dying hands down in battle, Edd play and role wise is as town as there possibly is (His role makes no sense as scum) and nothing Sapor claims can really change that at all, I'll give them a few days to get their thoughts and information out before voting though.

The factions definitely aren't 3-3 in a

twenty-eight

-player game. Had Faraday not bitched to me so much about there being ten scum in Chrono Trigger, I'd have guessed this was 5-5 (with one of the scum on each faction being a traitor)--and I can still see Faraday being a hypocrite about balance given that ACoK had a higher scum ratio than CT, or thinking splitting up Team Aegon would compensate for the numbers.

I was thinking earlier that the fact that there's daily activities in this game (Send someone to the wall, investigate someone, jailkeep someone) means that combined with roles is going to make this a fairly high powered game so I think 5 v 5 is super feasible and somewhat likely, only thing pointing against it really is the fact that there's so many people in the game I'd be shocked if they were scum. 4 v 4 with scum having some super powerful roles works as well I suppose.

[Regfan]

Oh and Scumhunter, actually read the game asap dude.

(Think it's likely that Pless roleblocked someone in his strong scum pool of and given that there were two nightkills it means that scum who sent in the kill wasn't roleblocked which means that Feysal and Sapor are slightly less likely to be in the scum-team that shot him. With that said there's a good chance they were shot by having at least one scum in their weak scum areas [Minimum, Kortul, Staeg] and I'm betting on it being Staeg right now.

[Regfan]

Wyman Mandrely isn't part of the Lannister Alliance, he works for Stannis from memory.

[Regfan]

Yeah, he helps Davos (Stannis first hand man) escape and plots against the Freys/Lannisters.

Vote: Staeg

[Regfan]

In fact he kills both Little/Big Walder from memory. Would make sense as a Stannis alignment rolecop.

[Regfan]

I don't remember anything about an agreement to uncover Wymans son, I'll re-read the chapter now though. And it's heavily hinted he murdered Little Walder.

Pandora, Scumhunter joketrolls around at the start but he's a decent player when he puts in the effort.

[Regfan]

Just read the chapter, there's no news about him wanting his son uncovered, one son of his just got back and they were feasting his welcome back celebration, the other is dead. He wanted to find out what really happened at Winterfall where Wex told him Bran/wolves ect. escaped and made it clear his loyalty was towards 'The Wolf if his brothers survive' = Starks which again are an enemy of the Lannister Alliance. Page 445ish roughly for anyone else wanting to read it.

[Regfan]

Mina, what do you think the odds are of Faraday misremebering why Manderly let Davos go?

[Regfan]

Eh.

Unvote

. Might be possible, will re-go-over-it tomorrow when my heads much clearer.

Oh and no one should place down a godhand vote until we get a combat flip.

[Regfan]

Eh Pandora, if there's a bunch more Freys around then his role makes sense as town, otherwise then yeah it's a scum-role.

Benmage, the game is the 'Lannister alliance', the Freys are allied with the Lannisters (Killing the Starks, red wedding ect.) and the Walders weren't killed by Theon. Also Staeg was forced into claiming, Shinori outted he was caught investigating, it's likely if he's scum then his fake-claim isn't 'investigation' related and rather just some sort of standard VT fake-claim which he couldn't use and thus claimed his actual role, the flavour fits fairly well as scum. Only issue is that I'm worried Faraday threw in a role that doesn't really fit as a townish sounding role for town to fuck with us which is in his nature. When I wake up tomorrow I'll think about it more.

[Regfan]

I don't see how your results can cause harm. Either it proves A) X is not a Frey which means nothing or it proves B) that X is a Frey which means if you're town they're clear. In case A) there's no real information gain/loss for anyone and in case B) we can PoE scum better.

Also want your reasoning behind checking whoever you investigated N2.

[Regfan]

I'd agree if not for the fact that Manderly isn't in the Lannister Alliance / Would be hunting them to kill them.

[Regfan]

Yeah, I looked at his prior games earlier today the game where Tyrion was town was at a time when he was actually working with the Lannisters fully though, don't remember seeing the hound there but if it was at book 3 he was working with the Lannisters fully as well. Littlefinger is iffy, it's hard to pin him as any real alignment but I think he was in the game merely as a 'troll' role which fits his personality somewhat. And safeclaim again is something I think is likely to be a VT/Something else and not based on 'investigationess' so him being already locked into a claim before claiming kills that.

Pedit: No. Not wasting an investigation on him. It needs to be on one of MoS/Plum who I can't get a definitive read on safely.

[Regfan]

Staeg, I also want to hear a little more of the flavour that explains why he's Lannister Alliance related. Find out how much you can share from Faraday and post it please. (Faradays online now)

[Regfan]

MoI, in Revolution Mafia (Where I hydraed with CES though was not really there for any of the end-game due to lurking, woops) CES did buss. A lot. Town just never followed him on it so his self-meta of he'd buss as scum is somewhat relevant and useful.

@Regfan:

Your hangup with flavor is terrible. It's either really his role, or it's a fakeclaim provided by Faraday/Seacore. Shit, son, Benmage was schooling you on how this works. kortul is the one I see asking the actually useful questions like "Why did you not investigate a claimed Frey?"

No. It's not at all. I'd hope you're trolling but I have a feeling your not so I'll walk you through it. Lets say that Scum!Staeg is given a fake-claim from Faraday, the fake-claim obviously checks out and makes sense but the fake-claim is a VT fake claim then Scum!Staeg is forced to out his real role when Shinori reveals he was caught investigating, this means he'll just claim his real role trying to spin that the flavour still works as town. That's why him being Manderly (Who I'd argue is allied more with the Starks/Stannis really than with the Lannisters) and him being more vested in finding Freys to kill them rather than to 'clear' ect. them makes more sense as scum than as town. All that said though I can kind of see his 'bad gut feelings on Regfan' making some sense if he's town and got a non-frey result on me as it'd decrease the odds I'm town in his eyes at the time. I wanted to re-go-over him and his claim a lot more in depth today but was distracted with real life commitment things but I think I'd rather lynch elsewhere than him right now. Will be looking more intently to Jal/MoS/Minimum/Plum/Mocking soon to work out who I want godhanded and lynched the most but for now lets deal with the combat battle.

HURT: Sapor

[Regfan]

Nope, it's not useful at all IMO. I've already explored how his actions towards bvoigt don't look like Town but like scum positioning themselves for cred when he eventually flipped once the actual pressure was off. If you would like to comment on why I'm not drawing valid conclusions from their ISO feel free to do so. Just saying "Oh, CES says he would have bussed so that means he's Town" is not helpful.

I'll look at your points about his interactions with Bvoigt tomorrow, haven't looked at them in depth at all yet, merely skimmished them and I'm not saying "CES didn't buss therefore is town" at all, in fact I think there's a decentish chance they're scum, reading into them again is near #1 on my priority list but your response to him and meta-mention in Post 2065 is wrong and his self-meta is actually fairly accurate, whether it's correct this game or not is a different matter.

Well, none of my flavor explains my ability, so this doesn't really work?

Yes it does? Manderly hunting Freys makes plenty of sense.

[Regfan]

Actual role, without a doubt.

[Regfan]

Uh... I'm not sure if I understand your 2072, then.

Not sure what's confusing about it? I'll go over it again though. I think the fact that Shinori outted that you were caught doing an investigative move N1 meant that as scum your given fake-claim was impossible to claim and therefore just claimed your real role.

[Regfan]

Incoming wall, apologies in advance.

I don't think the 'knows additional information or roles' ect. mean that partners don't know each other, that'd be stupid as it would essentially mean no communication between partners and would mean that one player would be determining their night-kill only and I know that Faraday thinks the idea of scum not having any communication is stupid - he's actually a big fan of scum having more communication like day talk. Think it's more likely that the 'role-known information' has something to do with them being told that there's a traitor in the game or something along those lines or being told that a certain powerful town role exists.

Godhand wise I'm actually starting to lean towards MoS being godhanded more than Plum/Minimum, I don't think I'll ever get a 100% strong read on him at all and with Plum/Minimum being super unlikely Aegon members from interactions then I'd say that we're lessish likely to hit scum on them or at least know which faction we should be interaction hunting with for them. Either way Magua/Tierce are bad godhand choices and shouldn't be in the mix.

Think aiming to finish of the Aegon faction should be the aim, should be able to do so within 2-3 days maximum if we focus our energy there and it'll cut down on the night-kills by one. I'd like someone else to look at Sals interactions with Starbuck, his commenting on her is odd....I'd probably say from it that Starbuck fits as his partner, he avoided really commenting on her alignment at all but I want someone to reaffirm that. What I am fairly confident in is that Sala is very unlikely scum with Molla, Minimum, MoI, Plum and Tierce (Zdenek look at Tierces Post 773 and Salas reaction to it in Post 777, it's not partner-interaction and while Tierce 'defended' Sala with little reasoning from memory I did a similar thing, I wasn't happy with either of the D1 wagons :/ so I can understand her play very much and don't think she's scum from it at all. Plus the manner in which she pointed out Sapors 'slip' and their following interaction about it isn't partners, stop tunneling on her dude.) Sapors play doesn't give me too much to work with oddly, it does strengthen the fact that Minimum, Plum and Tierce aren't partners with them, Feysal and Jal also look less likely to be partners with them and her posts makes Kortul look weird, she seemed to be setting up for him to be a town-read of hers when Bvoigt flipped.

Putting aside strong town-reads (Shinori/Edd/Pand/Ben/Tierce/Lyanna/Zde/MoI/Magua) and people unlikely to be partners with Sapor it leaves a smallish pool of Starbuck/Staeg/MJayg/Kortul/MoS. Will look into their interactions with the slot back in a minute. Or now. MJaye ignored the Sapor slot for majority of D1, stated that she wanted to read into it but never got around to it despite commenting on the other leading wagons, don't really see anything that points against her/sapor being partners, also think she fits decently with the other scum team too. Kortuls interactions with Bvoigt and the Sapor slot point against them being partners, the way that he goes from Sala to Bvoigt ISOing with both results coming up as nullscumish and the way that he phrases his questions of 'why should i vote sala over bvoigt or the other way around' is unlikely to be scumpartner, they don't need to hear push and question everyone on reasoning behind which partner to buss. See nothing that points against Starbuck fitting as a partner in her ISO. Staegs manner of pushing on Sala at the start of the game and then moving onto Bvoigt points slightly against them being partners, nothing super strong though and MoS/Salams 'gut' 'gut is everything' discussion points away from them being partners.

So all up I think the remaining Aegon faction members are inside of Scumhunter(Starbuck)/Mockingjay/Staeg with Staeg being the least likely of the three. (Also Pandora, while his investigation choices don't make a super amount of sense since scum read and mason checks make more sense if he truly believed his role was useless until later in the game when more information is revealed then him investigating stronger players to have information on for later makes some sense and with that mindset his 'guttish scum read on Regfan' after he got a non-frey result on me and the freys flipped town actually fits.) Scumhunter avoiding the thread here too despite being online everywhere else a heap actually points to him being super likely scum too, he enjoys playing town more than scum and with me in the game as town I think he'd have got into it and started helping fairly quickly whereas as scum he'd be lazy to read the thread and post, and if he's an Aegon faction then he'd probably be more inclined to try and lurk through a few day phases.

[Regfan]

Regfan: Again, I was preoccupied with a hurricane on D1, and I fixated on a handful of people with what time I did spend on the game.

I can understand having limited time, but having limited time and ignoring the main wagon that flipped scum is bad. Especially when you said you'd get to it in the list of names you had 'to read' while getting to most of the rest of the list at the time.

Were there any games on mafiascum where faction operated without knowing each other?

I assumed that happened before, since nobody really questioned that part on a previous days, but if it is unheard of, and this interpretation may be wrong, then it changes the logic of interaction analysis.

I've never seen it, not even on off-site. I'd actually consider that bastard modding.

[Regfan]

I just took two hours of work, caught a train to get to an internet cafe to get to this game and you faggots lynched before I could even comment any more.

I'll see what I can quickly get up before Faraday and Nexus get back. Two quick things for now though:

- Feysal makes a super good point, Faraday has used the term follower for the role Shinori is describing before (I'll find the game where he uses it, think it's from westeroes so westeroes people can help there) and his role information doesn't match what he was saying yesterday at all. I was thinking earlier if he got investigative information he wouldn't out it in-thread since it'd make more sense for him to just shoot an investigative role and thus thought he was town from it but it also makes sense with two scum-teams and him wanting town-cred from what he thought was outing another scum-team member. He needs to full-claim everthing clear as day tomorrow no matter what.

- @Minimum, town-read on Magua relates to his attitude about his town-reads coming across as natural-town-him, also found Cows comments genuine too.

[Regfan]

Scumhunter/MJay need rope. Very very confident that one if not both are scum. If I die better not see any of them get near lylo.

Regfan, its 80 pages bro, you underestimate (but shouldn't) my laziness. Plus the fellow who I replaced is pretty much LOL town, due to VT claim and the mindset seemed very transparent to me. I'm mot than happy to jump into this game, tell me where to start people, I ain't reading the whole goddamn thread. Can we lynch MoI?

This is bullshit, you wouldn't have replaced in if you weren't going to read the game, you despise people that do no effort at all in games, I don't believe you'd take a slot, get town and do nothing not even attempt to question me on who's obvtown/not. Your play here is just an attempt at hiding under the radar floating through days while people are focusing on Staeg and others and not yourself.

[Regfan]

MoS needs to die before lylo as well. Also Mollas not for lynching ever.

Moving Jal to Townieland because of his spat with Dolorous Edd. Moving Lyanna down towards scum. Still fine with a Staeg lynch for today.

Don't see Lyannas posts there as scummy at all. Explain that change. Do agree about Jal though, think he'd avoid having a spat with what is essentially conftown with a vig power as scum there.

I disagree and want her dead.

You'll cave if I keep repeating she's town enough. She's town. She's town. She's town. She's town. She's town. She's town. No but seriously, go back and look at the real interactions between her and those slots and not just mini quote snippets that you grabbed and you'll see your case against her is bad.

[Regfan]

Feeling better about Minimum right now too. All up I'm at:

Town (S->W):

Edd, Pandora, Lyanna, Molla, Tierce, Benmage, MoI, Zdenek, Magua, Jal, Minimum, Kortul, Feysal.

Scum (S->W):

Scumhunter, MJay, Shinori, MoS.

PEdit: Sure, it'll take me a few minutes though.

[Regfan]

His phrasing of his reads in Post 1859 reminds me a lot of his town play in comparison to his scum play. I'll do my best to explain the difference, as town there's a human element behind his reads, a thought process that he might not always share but there's an understandability behind it, his reads are based on prior games meta and there's consideration of what's scummy from a particular person rather than what can be construed as scum tells. Look at his reads post in Near Vanilla Mafia here where he was scum. It's mechanicalish posting. Compare it to Any Band where he was town here and Post Apocoloyptic where he was town here. If I had more time and energy I'd find more examples but all up the way hhe posts his reads here are very natural. Plus his town-read on Jal is fairly townish, think he'd regard Jal as mslynch bait and not mention anything as scum hoping that Edd would vig him and if he was partners don't think he'd fedwend him

[Regfan]

I have to run. Bah. My times up. DO NOT VIG JAL EDD.

[Regfan]

Or my times not up? I don't know if this post is half finished it's because the computers shut down mid way and I frantically click submit.

Not if I suddenly end up in the grave I can't use my powers anymore? He'd look good by both "arguing" with me and and the same time my NK wouldn't really point to him, since any scum would try to take out a PR.

However, his "argument" sounds highly fake, and I don't see where he is coming from. If you see where he is coming from, please explain (that question is for anyone else who can see where Jal is coming from). Because I'm not the only apparent crazy person who thinks that his argument is highly artificial and fake. I saw both MoI and Tammy note it.

Why would he think that arguing with you would make him look good? I don't see that being likely what he was thinking when doing it. I'll admit I've skimmed a lot of his bullshit response to you but I think it's moreso a case of him thinking he's in the right about something and arguing about it for the sake of arguing really. Also don't think it's likely you die tonight, doctor/any protective role should/would be on you.

PEdit: I did a similar thing Edd. I didn't like Shinori being jailkept at all and figured that if he's town the fact that so much discussion in thread revolved around him being jailkept that scum would never take a shot at him so I threw down a vote on someone I was fairly confident was town and wanted alive (Pandora) hoping that there was a chance others might have done the same thing and that a death would be prevented from it even though it was unlikely to actually happen.

[Regfan]

Also another thing that points to Shinori being scum is that I think as town he'd NOT want to have been jailkept as it would have meant blocking him from submitting a N2 investigation but he never once mentioned the subject, think it's possible he didn't know how it would have been received as scum so he just stayed quiet about it where-as as town I think he'd have been vocal on it.

[Regfan]

Faramod: I'll be V/LA for the next few days.

Looking forward to Shinoris explanation behind his thought process the past two days and what input his hydra partner had in it. With that said, looked back at his ISO and his breadcrumb of investigating Staeg at the end of D1 fits fairly nicely with his move as does his questions thrown out in Post 1738 so not feeling quite so bad about him anymore. Main thing I want sorted out in detail is the linkage between Staeg and Bvoigt that he was discussing.

Benmage, I know with certainty Maguas *fuck Benmage* thing isn't fake. Also Scumhunter slot is probably scum, go re-read it and let me know your thoughts.

Magua, have you gone back and read through all of D1 now? If not you should, it'll explain why Pandora is obvtown and you'll get Molla and Benmage town from it as well. The biggest issue by far with Mockingjaye is that her interactions fit pretty much perfectly as a Bvoigt/Sapor partner as do their interactions back with her and at the same time she still fits with DCL. So all up the chances her slot is scum is fairly high, especially when there's heaps of players that I doubt are Aegon aligned. You need to throw that Tierce read in the bin, it's wrong and I think Mina has been V/LA or busy enough not to be able to devote time to the game which is why she didn't sign up solo so while I want to see a lot more thoughts from her I don't think her 'not living up to expectations' is too massive a thing right now.

4nxiety / Scumhunter / MoS. The lynch needs to be inside that pool and for the love of fucking god, no more quick lynches. Preference is probably:

Vote: 4nxiety

[Regfan]

Going to take a leap and make a prediction even though it really doesn't do much: I think PlumNacho are Stannis Faction. Just noticed their account was online earlier today but never posted, can see it being them as scum wanting to limit their interactions left behind knowing they're guarenteed to live a few more days. Don't think they're aligned with Bvoigt and Sapor at all for a multitude of reasons which makes them Stannis aligned and they never mentioned DCL and RedFF too much while DCL and RedFF never mentioned them a single time which fits fairly nicely.

[Regfan]

Shinori, I can understand thinking "Scum investigative role!" when checking a scum-read of yours but you said you didn't know who he investigated so him investigating me isn't a point to you believing he was scum when you were unsure whether to out it or not at all. But yeah, clear your head, sort it out then explain it.

[Regfan]

Actially, Regfan is probably scum to be honest. Regfan-town would know my laziness and be asking me to contribute more. Instead, he is all too content letting me be inactive and making me an easy target for a future lynch instead of trying to determine my alignment. Also my predecessor was lol noob town btw.

Except for the fact that I have asked you to read and contribute twice already in #1999 and #2006 and this isn't some random-d1 where you feel like you can lounge around for a bit waiting for the game to progress, not at all. This is a game you volunteeringly replaced into where there's a shitload of content to read, evaluate and judge of so you have literally no excuse whatsoever for not providing content and 'lazy' doesn't cut it and is bullshit, you enjoy being town in games and you know that I'm taking a break soon thus wouldn't join a game and put no effort. Your play here is literally hide under the radar and the quote I've posted of yours is a similar attempt to what you did in Slaxx's Troll game as scum where you started of decrediting/pushing against me subtly.

[Regfan]

Nacho, can you explain the X list vs Y list alongside with why 4nxiety shouldn't die today other than 'personal feelings towards him' and explain Feysal-Stannis scum because I don't see it. At all. At the same time explain Kortul is not Stannis, no, no he is Stannis for me too.

Scumhunter, if you're actually going to put effort into the game, read it all. Please. Things to focus more on though are flipped scums ISO, MockingJaye and MoS as well as Feysal and Kortul since I'm curious what read you have on those two as well. And in all the games we've hydra'ed the only reason you weren't active was there wasn't need to, I was doing the posting and conversing with you on AIM, playing individually is a different story, you never lurkalurked and were lazy in games we played separately while I was alive as town with you as town too. And Starbuck isn't 'new' by any means.

[Regfan]

This game needs a serious burst of activity from a lot of people.

[Regfan]

Pandora, I can kind of understand what you mean about Shinori, his scumhunting has been weak and his lack of stating he was a Frey yesterday when people were suggesting that Staegs role was a mason hunter are both scummy but the same time what's the thought process as scum? Are you saying he found out that Staeg was an investigative role and thought he'd out it and get him lynched over it? Because I don't think that makes much sense as scum, makes more sense to 1) Shoot the investigative role 2) Stay quiet, talk with partners who would likely advice against it or 3) Do nothing. His Tierce investigation is....weird and bad but I don't think he'd know that he'd have to out alternate results as scum and then check such a bad target or have his partners let him do so. I think it's more likely he's just terrible. Either way not comfortable lynching him today.

On paper, she could fit with either faction...I guess. I feel like something's missing though. I need to sit down with the game and re-read it, which definitely won't happen until this weekend. Maybe Friday night after I get home from being out. Aided by alcohol will probably help

That's exactly it. The slot works fairly well as scum with both factions not just due to their interactions with the flipped scum but the flipped scums interactions with them. Plus the fact that Mockings comments don't come across as townish and 4nxietys replace in 'catch-up' has been super underwhelming and consists of him making miniature little comments here and there that really don't add up to much. All around the slot has an extremely good chance of flipping scum. Not to mention I have a lot of town-reads and people that I see some townish things from so PoE also strengths the odds of it being scum.

Magua, I'll explain the Pandora-obvtown read tomorrow, or later tonight if the cricket gets boring.

[Regfan]

Magua, Pandora are obvtown for a bunch of reasons (Also you owe me one bit of effort because I'm taking time out of drinking to do this for you) with the strongest one being their hydra interactions come across as really really genuine. It's them scumhunting naturally and not worrying about their self-image. Best example I can find of what I mean is Post 95 where they cross-posted with different sort of reads; think as scum they'd have been conferring about what they're posting not to double up or at least Quilford would have refrained from submitting his post when seeing Shadow had posted opposite reads towards him as scum to avoid the 'hydra-inconsistencies!' argument being used against them. Shadow outting Quilford as the hydra member in their first post is also a town-tell. Quilford hates being scum and is relatively weak at it so I think she'd have waited to see if he wanted his main outted or not as scum to avoid meta-cases being used against him - the fact she was happy to jump into it shows nothing to hide. Their conversation element in Post 349 is more of what I mean there. Their reads and change in them are also very natural. Reads list in Post 1136 is very much of what I know of QuilfordTown. If you need or want more just ask

so I can turn you down

.

Scumhunter, remind me of Post 2401 later in the game or post-game. You'll enjoy it.

Actually that only makes sense if you forget that that night one scum wasn't having the best time putting their shoot face on, and the next day there was a free prison day, and they had the jailer sitting on their face. He actually eliminated half of that when he convinced everyone to give him the jailkeep vote (because ~*~reasons~*~) then outted Staeg the next day in a way that made him look terrible despite, and I emphasize this, Having No Actual Evidence Of Wrongdoing. While having done nothing to look at his target or at anyone. We also did this on a day where we had a free protect/cop combo that we could have used on the flipping cop who would have gotten a positive on Shinori himself! I feel really stupid right now, why did we even do that? With as little information as 'investigated someone' we should have just switched the lynches.

Disagree. Scum would have known that Staeg would never have been doc saved and wouldn't have had 'no-killing through' worries at all. Plus I don't see why he'd WANT to be jailkept as scum. I can get why he'd not want to be jailkept as town, that's a more logical argument but him wanting to be jailkept as scum would be limiting the scum members that can send in the night-kill, not exactly ideal so him claiming for the reason of 'being jailkept' is flawed. And eh. I kind of believe his 'meta-similarities between staeg play elsewhere and here' beacause his read changed on him the prior day before he investigated him. Don't see him pre-emptively changing a read just in case he got a result that led him to out it to push a mslynch. Long story short I think either way he legitimately thought that Staeg was scum when investigating him. And yes, Staeg shouldn't have been lynched. I really should have been more vocal about it.

Pedit: 4nxiety > Scumhunter. Plus I want to see his 'effortpost' first, should make reading him super easy.

[Regfan]

nacho, i want scum reads with reasoning behind them from you. want your feysal read explained too. also don't think 4nxietys comment there is a town tell at all.

[Regfan]

Tierce, don't see what you mean about Scumhunters Jaime claim being 'trolling' at all. Think it's his legitimate claim.

Zdenek, if you're pretty convinced that I'm scum why am I not in your 'preferred list of votes'.

[Regfan]

MoS's 'number dump' is a whole lot of useless shit. Think he knows it as well and his 'Well I don't have time to do more than that!' is a shit excuse for it, just stating his reads and re-reading into his scum-reads stating which is more likely to be scum based on the interactions would have been a significantly better use of his time but his points procedure means he can just skate by all game by saying 'X had high points, going to vote them'. Going to keep repeating it. He needs death before lylo. Heck, I'd even consider lynching him today if no one else moves towards 4nxiety.

Scumhunter, this'll be your last chance. Content today or replace out. Serious dude. The whole "Well you're lynching me for being useless and not scum!!" act is crap. You know that townies need to contribute for town to have any chance at winning this game, you're not contributing, you're not helping, you're actively spamming the thread with useless shit. Content or leave.

Tierce, want your thought process behind thinking that Scumhunters Jaime claim wasn't his real claim.

Oh and growing more and more sure that 4nxiety/Mos/Plum/Scumhunter consist of at least 3 scum.

[Regfan]

Regfan, what scumreads of mine were you expecting me to extrapolate on? All of my top scumreads were eliminated recently...I did that analysis because I didn't know where to go and I needed to get a new perspective on the game. I'm not really sure what you expected from me.

Untrue. You had a scum-read on Kortul previously that you never retracted so you going the long way round of doing a 'points scoring' to justify voting him is bullshit. Not just that though but there's a bunch of players you have as strongish town reads inside your 'scum most likely inside of' piles and the fact that you haven't gone around stating, okay, x/y/z are probably town from play/other things making a/b/c significantly more likely scum and then looking into them shows no real indepth thought process from you other than collect points data, throw it up and pretend it's contribution. Not just that but 'voting alongside same wagon as scum' in a game of this size isn't exactly a 'scum-tell' but your points data attempts to construe it is and you've flat out avoided looking at certain people; Jal, Scumhunter/Starbuck, Mockingjaye/4nxiety and Plum to some degree other than slapping their names on your list. And considering that they're all discussed likely scum and more than likely lynches today not looking into them when doing 'content' really shows you're not even attempting to scumhunt in the slightest.

[Regfan]

Right now I'm at about;

Town (S->W):

Pandora, Benmage, Lyanna, Tyene, Zdenek, Molla, Magua (Gap) Shinori, Minimum, Kortul, Feysal, Jal.

Scum (S->W):

4nxiety, MoS, Plum, Scumhunter

[Regfan]

MoS, see when you have your only stated in-thread scum-read being kortul, go into an analysis come out with a vote on Kortul and no statement of what you think is scummy or not scummy from any other player then yes you're just making the anaylsis to look as if it's a 'contribution' with no intent to solve anything from it at all. Again I'll repeat it since you ignored it 'voting on the same wagon as scum' is not a scum-tell, don't understand how you can ever attempt to justify it as one unless you're stating with 15 to lynch scum believed 2 of them voting together was super effective and more likely to drive the lynch through which really isn't the case. The fact that you're attempting to 'analyze' people off things like that which have no real relevance to alignment without looking at peoples motivations or actually looking at peoples posts and content show that you're not scumhunting. Not even close to it. The fact that you haven't stated any read on Jal/Scumhunter/Mocking and a bunch of other people including Benmage at all nor do you look like you're trying to read them or state your thoughts on their posts means you're not looking at everything, just the one person you went into this with a scum read on. And no, I'm not arguing with you because you're voting Kortul specifically, he's probably one of my weakest town reads at the moment, it's the fact that none of your posts show thought process that resembles in-depth consideration.

Originally thought Regfan was town, cause his vote looked like he was still paranoid from the last game we played where I fooled him as scum. Recently, His continuing to call me his top scumread yet not really questioning the motive in my posts is giving me scumvibes. I suppose I could say the same thing about CES yet I get the vibe that he genuinely believes I am scum.

Has nothing to do with 'paranoia of you from a previous game' in fact I don't even remember you being scum in the other game (Assume you're talking about Magician game by DDD?) and if you've read through the thread you'd know as much; the scum-read on you is mostly revolved around Mockingjayes posts and the fact that she fits perfectly with post scum-teams. And your posts haven't shown anything other than tid-bits of conversation here and there that add up to little and the turnabout 'had town-read on him, now scum-read on him' about me is just a pre-emptivish omgus given that if scumhunter gets lynched today you know you'll be on the block tomorrow and need someone to push back at and you're Jal/Now pine push is going nowhere.

so yeah, biggest thing is laziest = scum, but the not giving a shit laziness here is far less like his scummeta than it is elsewhere. So I am still not happy with this lynch.

The games you linked (At least the one where he was in a hydra with me) wasn't him lurking at all, we spoke on AIM during that game daily for 30 minutes - 1 hour on average about our reads, who we thought was scum, the only reason he didn't post so much was because I was doing the posting at the point. As town he actually gives a shit, he enjoys it and puts in effort. As scum he hates the game and lurks it out. The only thing giving me pause from joining Magua on shooting me (lol) is that I think as scum he'd flat out replace out to not harm a scum-team or at least put something that can be construed as content forward but then again it's entirely possible he doesn't know what to content-post. Either way for him it's legitimate scumhunting content before deadline, replacing out or death. Now I still have questions you haven't answered and they'll only take you a minute so no 'fuck busy sorry guys!' bullshit. 1) List in Post 2336 is about what? 2) Explain the kortul is scum, not scum, stannis scum from Post 2340 to Post 2342 for me and 3) Explain the Feysal = Stannis scum in Post 2346 for me.

[Regfan]

The only thing giving me pause from joining Magua on

shooting

sheeping me (lol) is that I think as scum he'd flat out replace out to not harm a scum-team or at least put something that can be construed as content forward but then again it's entirely possible he doesn't know what to content-post.

Fixed.

I don't buy Feysal-scum. Do agree his town meta is to be more active than this and his play here meta-wise now is moreish towards his scum meta but don't think he fits as either scum-team and there's been quite a few points he's put forward that have read as genuine and that I've agreed with. If anyone wants specifics of why he doesnt' really fit as either scum-team I'll go into it later tonight (8ish hours from now) but Sapors and DCLs interactions and mentions of him don't read partners.

[Regfan]

Nacho, thanks for the answers re; link/kortul, both make a lot of sense. I'll re-look at Feysal/DCL interactions again in the morning (Exhausted now) but still disagree that they're partners and 4nxieties post above sort of explains why. Do agree that the choose element changes what partners interactions is somewhat but don't think it's as massive a change as you're making it out to be; don't think scums aim and goal would be to have them crossing and think DCLs 'feysal is scummy but less so because of the multislip and moreso because of other things' isn't what he'd say to have them cross as scum and think he'd have gone for greenknight.

This is a problem. The fact that she fits with both scumteams probably means she doesn't belong to either.

Kind of shocked that you'd say something as stupid as this. Sure, someone fitting as scum with someone else doesn't mean they will always be scum but the fact that they fit with both parties as scum increases the odds they're scum not 'probably doesn't mean they belong to either'. Don't see any way at all you can even consider justifying the 'less likely to be scum' stance at all.

4nxiety, don't remember much about your play from the newbie that was cancelled but I'll relook at it later, didn't even remember it existed though. And there's been a lack of focus on your posts because there's nothing about them that needs massive responding towards, the case is significantly more Mockingjaye based than you and your lack of contribution isn't 'playstyle' at all, from memory as town you actually contribute useful stances and reads whereas this game you jumped in with a few questions that led nowhere really and discussion about greyscalling that was useless and rather stupid. Your vote on Jal comes mostly down to 'him not commenting on the trial by combat' which isn't much of a scum-tell at all and your reads come across as you avoiding standing on too many tip-toes. The Jal lynch 'going-nowhere' is relatively obvious; there's been little to no talk about whether he's a good lynch or not from a lot of people so the lack of stances on him in the room means that you can't bank on him being lynched over you, that means in the case of a Scumhunter lynch you'd need someone else to potentially push towards and slowly opening the door of pushing towards me is the perfect opening for you to do so.

[Regfan]

Feysal-stance is about the only thing I agree with of yours.

And I went to re-read MoS, thought I remembered him having a town-read on Benmage, didn't find it in his ISO, tried Control + F thing and found no stance on him at all so included him and retracted Plum because while I hate people avoiding stating reads and stances on NachoPlum I can kind of see why it might happen; find out their alignment later = it can be wasted time.

[Regfan]

The goal doesn't have to be crossing; the goal should be a little bit of distancing. But when the wagon never died until the choose wagon on DCL that was obviously going to go through, crossing just happened. Think RedCoyote voting Amrun in Chosen Ones; he thought it was a shitty wagon that would die eventually, but when it stayed as big as it was, he never got the opportunity to hop off.

Think DCL would have known the wagon wasn't super likely to move from Feysal but I see your point.

Hmm, let's see. I have previously stated I thought Jal was highly likely to be Stannis faction, and that Mocking/4nxiety and Benmage were both highly likely to be Aegon faction. So either you must be REALLY bad at reading comprehension to not realize that claiming someone is probably part of a scum faction means I have a scumread on them or you're purposefully trying to do everything you can to attack me right now without actually stopping to make sure that your "case" makes any sense. ...and I really don't think you're that stupid to actually think your case makes sense.

Major FoS: Regfan

THAT'S EXACTLY IT. You've gone through your analysis and came back stating they're likely X/Y scum but you've never decided 'hmm I should re-read their actual posts and not some stupid points system to get a read on them', you're content basing all your reads of point system which makes no sense at all which is why it's a fake contribution and allows you to just vote high points back to back without justifying with any real reasoning other than 'high points!'

[Regfan]

"Jumping on something I haven't had time to do yet" is complete bullshit, you haven't shown any intention to look deeper and have posted a lot since your 'analysis' without touching on any of their ISOs and reads from it. You're literally showing no townie mindset at all. And not just that but your reacting in a "Omg point out scum-tells of mine" must be pushing for mslynch which is uberscum defensiveness!!!

If you're going to do the reading into them then god damn do it. Stop creating excuses not to and pretending that your list of 'x' 'y' is anything useful.

[Regfan]

It probably isn't. But I'm more confident in 4nxietyScum than MoS scum. Especially since from memory MoS didn't fit in one of the factions whereas 4nxiety fit both.

[Regfan]

CES, Pine hasn't been online in 36ish hours + his posts between his 'catching up' here and elsewhere all seem small. So think he's struggling IRL time wise and the meta thing is nullified.

[Regfan]

Yes, how dare I ask you to produce content.

(Really hoping you are actually scum this game otherwise my respect for you just dipped substantially.)

[Regfan]

Welcome Timeater.

First I try to put some effort into this game with what little time I have (there's a reason I'm only in one game right now), and immediately you come after me for not putting MORE effort into the game. And then I have to spend the rest of my time explaining to your fucking retarded brain why I'm not doing MORE to scumhunt, when YOU are the exact reason I don't have time to do MORE. So seriously, fuck off and get off your goddamn high horse.

1) Replacing out 3 days from the deadline isn't helpful to anyone so rescind that request and save everyone including Faratroll sometime.

2) You're making it out as if ISOing 3-4 players is a massive massive thing. It doesn't take more than 40 minutes to do which is such a small amount of time that that you could easily devote towards it if you really put in the effort and maybe instead of responding to me over and over again saying 'omg how will i have time no time!' you could, just youknow do the reading into them and come out with content that isn't number related.

[Regfan]

I second Kortuls request for a slight extension so that both replacements have ample time.

Timeater, have you been following along the game at all? If not then why did you instantly come in and claim?

[Regfan]

Timeater, mind linking me to a game where you insta-claim when replacing in as town then? (Scumhunter and Starbuck both your predecessors claimed VT at different times as well with Scumhunter claiming his role-name so your insta-claim upon replacing in comes across as somewhat forced).

And for footnotes, read the game, as much of it as you can but summary is that NachoPlum are godhanded so we'll find out their alignment mod-confirmed at the end of tomorrow. Tierce/Tammy/Pandora/Benmage/Molla/Zdenek/Magua are all very likely town, Kortul/Minimum/Shinori are probably town too and I don't think Feysal fits as either scum-team but there's a case that holds some ground on him that I still need to re-read into so reading into him and as much of the case as you can (NachoPlums pushing). I'd also suggest looking at 4nxiety (Who is scum), AV/MoS and Jal when reading.

[Regfan]

why arent you dead reg

Think it's likely I bite the bullet at night soon to be honest, just treating every day I survive as a gift.

point still stands. whether you agree or disagree with my stances has nothing to do with it. You implied scumminess on my part for not contributing/taking stances, while in the same post, it clearly shows, you understand I have taken a stance on feysal.

Not even close to similar. Agreeing with a point of yours doesn't mean that the rest of your comments and contributions are 'non-scummy' or relevant, your entire spiel about the greyscalling lynch literally gives nothing towards the game and that's not even 'agree/disagree' wise, it's flat out useless posting.

this doesn't address what MoS was talking about. you said he was scummy for not stating reads on jal, mockingjaye, or benmage. he pointed out thats was wrong and had, in fact, given reads on those three earlier in the game. He was accusing you of being scummy for not taking the time to realize your statement was false. Instead of addressing this accusation(explaining why you didn't take note of those earlier reads), you default to a different argument surrounding his VCA.

Except he didn't take a stance or have a read on Jal/MockingJaye/Benmage earlier in the game. The first time he ever really took a stance on any of the players where via his VCA which was just numbers thrown together in an illogical fashion (And he kept avoiding responding to how voting alongside the same wagon as scum isn't a scum-tell in a game like this). I kept continuously pointing out the same thing (That he's not actually scumhunting and stating reads on them based on motivation behind posts) and he responding to it by flinging shit and then ultimately complaining about no time and replacing out.

[Regfan]

Will put in a big chunk of time to doing everything tomorrow, 3am isn't the time when my minds in the right mindset to do it. Just as a meta note though I remember Feysal having a narrow focus in majority of his town games so don't think that is a point towards him being scum at all. It's certainly frustrating and annoying that he doesn't fully branch out but it's not a scum-tell for him.

that was one post, I have sixteen other posts. I have taken a stance on MoS, Jal, and several others. and that still doens't jusity "agreeing I have a point about feysal" yet implying I "haven't contributed to the game" in the same post.

Majority of your posts contain little to discuss deeply about and the greyscalling conversation lasted more than one post. Your stance on Jal/reasoning behind it is something I've already gone into and the 'Think MoS is town because VCA doesnt' push on anyone' is relatively illogical since scums aim isn't as much to push on someone in a 28 player game but moreso to avoid the lynch themselves and faking contributions and efforts via something like a VCA does that.

Why the hell did you ask him this and feed him a possible response?

It was partially a trap. I was kind of hoping his answer would be 'yes I've been reading along' and then I could follow it up with instantly asking him a bunch of questions that he'd only know the answer to if he'd been reading the game.

PEdit: Nacho, I know you're super super for this Feysal lynch but I dowant your order for alternate lynches.

[Regfan]

Hold the fuck up. No ones hammering until I get time to do the big sit down I want to do in a few hours from now to look at Feysal (4-5 in all likelihood).

Initial impression is still that I don't like this at all. Most of the points that I'm understanding put up against Feysal are meta proven to be null and really are just more of an attack of playstyle (Him posting bigger posts less frequently then others post and him focusing on a sole target wanting to have them lynched rather then working on everyone at once.) Anyway still very much want 4nxiety lynched, not understanding peoples shifting town reads on him at all. Someone explain it to me, with that said I'll settle for a Timeater lynch happily.

I don't actually like Timeaters 'explanation' of why he insta-claimed his role, comes across as forced still and the link to the thread of him saying 'town should be see-through and genuine' doesn't really explain his moves if he's claiming that he didn't' realize he was being voted or wagoned at the time. Really comes across as him trying to force-through a town-tell rather than anything else. Not just that though but in Post 2612 I mentioned that Scumhunter had claimed their role-name and then in Post 2618 he insinuates he doesn't know that his role name has been claimed, then in Post 2621 he goes 'oh fuck my role name has already been claimed which doesn't match in order of thought process. Either 1) He didn't read my initial post carefully and skimmed past the fact that Jaime was already claimed which is scummy given that there was only two lines in my post directed towards him or 2) He knew that Scumhunter had claimed Jaime from reading my post or even beforehand making the following 'ace up my sleeves' completley fabricated. In 1) it's not just that he didn't read my post properly but instead of going 'ace up my sleeve' 'im jaime booyah' he goes 'ace up my sleeve' 'oh names already claimed' which means instead of just posting it instantly he actually went back and looked through Scumhunters ISO which I can't understand the motivation behind as town at all.

[Regfan]

Ok. Time to dissect Plums case on Feysal, will see if any of it has real merit.

#1. Nachos Post 2530 brings up the point of "Feysal having one scum read = Scum". Wish I could find or devote more time to linkages but a mere summary will have to suffice here. Feysal as a player tends to not cope super well in larger games, he struggles to keep up and therefore cuts down the number of players he pays attention to or focuses on, he normally doesn't pick up more than one suspect, he'll comment here and there on everyone else but overall he'll focus his actions and movements on getting his strongest scum read lynched as town. Best example that comes to mind is AFFC where he pushed all out on MoI if my memory is correct and he showed tunneling tendencys in G v E as well although he did branch out slightly more there too. So really the 'So few focus = Scum' doesn't mesh with Feysal at all.

#2. Plums Post 2545 brings up three things, 1) Being his stance on Staeg, 2) Being his stance on Shinori and 3) Being his response to Scumhunter. I'll go backwards, I find 3) to be a town-tell from him rather than anything else, as scum he's locking himself into stating a 'saying' or 'words' later on that fits with his fake-claim which isn't something that I think Scum!Feysal would do. I also think him lying about getting a messaage like that would be suicide, in other words he's not lying. That means that he legitimately got a worded PM, it's possible he got one that state words that are something aimed for scum but in those cases I don't think he'd bring it up, so yes long story short his statement of recieving the prodding words directed towards Scumhunter is actually a reasonably strong town-tell rather than anything else. In regards to 1) I can understand where you're coming from but disagree, I was also caught up with his claim being 'weird' and as for 2) I actually really liked the points he brought up against Shinori and don't see how they're scum tells in the slightest. (Did that really weird order, 3->1->2, not sure why even).

#3. Nachos Post 2564 about DCL/Feysals interactions. Will accept that my Feysal/DCL not partners! is nowhere near as strong now as it was in the past but at the same time think the argument you're making for them being partners is incredibly weak and highly due to confirmation-bias rather than anything else.

So all up I think the case is horseshit. Lynch Timeater or 4nxiety over Feysal anyday.

thats not true, scum will push a lynch to keep the lynch off themselves or their buddies. Your argument agaisnt MoS is he used a VCA to justify a vote on someone he thought was scum earlier, kortul(ie. he needed something to fake a scumread). I'm saying scum are more likely to use a VCA to justify a jump on a more popular target. Why would he put all that effort into justifying a vote for kortul when he wasn't even close to being lynched? especially when he could easily just point to the original reason for thinking kortul was scum. The main reason I find you scummy is, ime, you are much more objective with your reads as town. Here it feels like you are much more concerned with portraying someone's actions as scummy rather than looking at the motivations behind them.

Ok. Lets for the sake of it say that MoS is scum, he either has 1 other partner or 2 other partners in all likelihood. What's the likelihood of him having to need to defend them or avoid them getting lynched with those odds? Answer is reasonably low, with there being 17 or whatever people alive the odds are probably close to something like 1/10 of his partner being run up therefore his motive behind the VCA would be less defend partners and moreso avoid getting lynched himself. I don't think he went into it entirely aiming to come out of it voting Kortul nor do I think that was his pure motivation behind it. I think his aim was to go in and do something he thought he would get town read of and also something that would allow him to throw down a vote while adding little real justification behind. Not just that but doing something that would allow him to change votes at will. For instance he could easily say "Voting X because they have a lot of points on my scale" and the vote is something that he wouldn't really have to explain in any more depth because of his VCA which is why his actions make perfect sense as scum. With all that said I don't know exactly what to make of his replace out and am in multiple minds about it so at this point really not willing to lynch AV until I see more from him or get a solid read on MoS's replace out. (If you want a little opening into my thought process it's that MoS prefers scum to town from memory and know that he's better as scum than town, also know he puts more effort in as scum than town which makes his replace out less likely to come from ScumMoS but on the flip side I know as scum MoS gets aggravated easily with mod decisions, mod setup and partners, Plums game is perfect proof of it and I think he might have used the entire argument debacle to get out and clear his name from a game he couldn't stand as scum and if the case would mean his partners are people he's not super respectful of. Still trying to process it all but you see where I'm at now).

[Regfan]

Bleh. 3 days to go and no real likelihood for any more extensions. (If I die though you're lynching 4nxiety without a doubt).

Vote: Timeater

People need to seriously pick up there activity for the next few days.

[Regfan]

Who is the scum on the wagon?

I really wouldn't be suprised to find Plum be Stannis scum with one of 4nxiety/Timeater and their push on Feysal being saving partner. Know 4nxiety/DCL/Nacho all fit really well as partners, don't know how Timeater fits with Nacho/DCL, might look at it later but we find out Nachos alignment end of tomorrow for certain. Mollas town, Pandoras town, Zdeneks town, Tammys town, AV I'm undecided on, was scum on MoS all the way until his replace out, not so sure now.

[Regfan]

He fits well with both scum-teams (From memory, know he was one of the two most likely to fit with Bvoigt/Sapor too) I just don't know if he fits with Nacho as well.

[Regfan]

Thor, read the game or at least skim it and unvote Feysal, I don't want Timeater or anyone else to have a chance to blitz hammer ending the day.

stop being retarded reg. or stop being maf

I like how you've ignored the entirety of Post 2675 where I explain my scum-read on you and instead call me 'retarded/scum'.

[Regfan]

Timeater, just want to make sure I have this right, you didn't read my post to you properly the first time (The one mentioning that SH/Starbuck had claimed), then stated you have an ace up your sleeve, then read my post, then realized Scumhunter claimed Jaime so you posted as such? Oh and TammysTown.

I want everyone who has a town-read on 4nxiety/Timeater to explain it in their next post and if they don't I want them to explain why they're not for his lynch today.

Regfan you did this shit about 5 days too late.

There's enough time to get anything done so don't pull this 'oh too late to help' card.

Timeater is probably town. I would be fine with a blitz hammer that ends the day.

Would like you to explain your town-read on him for me, would also want you to explain why you were happy with a blitz hammer that ends the day on Feysal when you move on to call him 'obv.town'. Also your push on Zdenek is really stupid. He never said "This isn't like Feysals scum meta, therefore he could still be scum that changed meta" at all, in fact he stated he thinks his play here matches his scum meta (He's wrong, and I'll go into why later tonight when the cricket winds down but his stance isn't contradictory or scummy at all). Want to hear your other reads at the moment as well / how much of the thread you've read.

[Regfan]

Early VT claim and beard.

Both his predecessors claimed VT at some point before replcing out so I don't see how that's a town-tell at all. Also your beard is fake.

Okay, when I said that I didn't have a town read on him, so it's an inherently slightly derp question unless you think I did have a town read on him when I said that, and if that's the case show me where I said or implied that.

Being happy with a blitz hammer means you're comfortable voting the person you are (Especially if they're the lynch that the blitz hammer is being talked about), I don't understand you saying that if you didn't read Feysals posts yourself at all at the time and if you had then I don't understand the change from 'happy with lynch' to 'obv.town'.

Here he says his game here looks like his town play. Here he says that he changed his meta from his scum play. What am I missing? Quote or link?

I'll bold what you're missing then:

Alright, so inspired by Regfan's defense of Feysal I checked Feysal's play in AFFC: Looking at what's left of AFFC, F

eysal's posting rate is something like half of what it was in that game. This already sends off warning bells.

Early on he gave a few town-reads, he attacked MoI and voting Magister Ludi for doing nothing. He continued to give town reads - one on the leading wagon and push Ludi and argue with MoI. He attacked Magua and MoI. So he had three scum reads: Ludi (that was early and later he voted him because of his gambit), Magua and MoI, with MoI being the strongest. He also thought that Plum and me were scum. Magua became town to him because of his interactions with MoI. Finally he voted Plum because of someone else's case. Looking at this,

I disagree with Regfan's point #1 about Feysal.

Okay so reviewing Feysal's play here, it doesn't actually look all that different from his play in AFFC.

The only thing that stands out is posting rate.

Now I have to go check out a scum game of his. In Chronotirgger, Feysal's posting rate was even lower than it is here. He starts off being confused by a flash wagon and not really sold on any of the current suspects. He gave out a town read on Tierce. He gave out scum reads on Spyrex, Staeg and Elmo. He switched his vote to Shadow Dancer. Then Drey. Without commenting I think on Shadowdancer/his replacement. He calls Spyrex scum again. He votes Elmo. I think without mentioning Spyrex. The rest of the game seemed to be mostly about setup spec/role interactions. One difference is that it seems like he only posted when he was caught up, rather than while he was trying to catch up. He also didn't have any solid suspects during the game. On the other hand I believe that was the main reason that Spyrex was suspicious of him, and it's an easy thing to correct for (and, for instance, ending up being overly focussed on one person). All this considered, I don't think that the meta on Feysal is relevant to his alignment.

So the bottom line is that he's playing like scum, so we should lynch him.

[Regfan]

His overall tone is "this is scum!" and I am not seeing much of "is this scum?" from him; It is like every single argument we make is automatically wrong and scummy, If that makes sense. Also, tim is correct with his overdeveloped attacks feeling contrived. It feels like Regfan is over-justifying his stances. Another thing that bothered me is there are times when it looks like he is actively trying to appear the most pro-town -- "everyone we need to be more active" "yeah lets extend deadlines for the replacement"-- stuff that he doesn't neccessarily need to say. tbh I would prefer a Regfan lynch over Thor at this point yet there has been zero momentum.

So let me get this right, you think I'm scum for having, explaining and pushing on scum-reads? Also activity is key to games, lack of activity and content kill games and thus constantly stating as much pressures people conciously to post more which is what's needed, also think I said similar things a lot in the newbie game we were in so you treating this as a scum-tell is just you attempting to prepare for a push back on me for upcoming days.

(This is scum!)

[Regfan]

no not for explaining and pushing, it is the way you push your reads that I find scummy. a newbie game where your IC is very different from a large theme game. I am much more wary of someone who takes "Imma steer everyone in the right direction" route in this game.

I take charge or at least attempt to sezie some form of control in just about any game I play. It's better than letting everyone flail around, waste time and discuss or spend time focusing on people that are obvtown or less likely scum. And the (This is scum!) was mocking of your post but the fact that your scum-read that you were annoyed that people didn't join you on (Jal) is being voted (Thor) and now you're attempting to state that your preference vote or lynch is me comes highly highly highly across giving yourself something to push on tomorrow.

[Regfan]

Having some computer difficulties so using my step sisters laptop, this'll be short. Summary is; Don't agree with Thorlynch (Hate his push on Zdenek as it's completely completely wrong but the sheer length he's kept it up for points towards him actually believing in it meaning it's not a scum-tell from him. Also the 'explain scum-reads on me, not understanding peoples votes on me' attitude that people are saying is scummy isn't, I remember him doing it as town in a game we were in (Think it was Zachs mini normal where I was Baseline, not positive though), Feysals still town, somewhat more unsure on Timeater, see glimpses that remind me of his town-play (Actually find his attack on Tammy personally more of a town-tell than a scum-tell so not sure what Tierce is getting that being scummy from; think as scum he wouldn't get that frustrated with her play enough to cross that line) and really really want 4nxiety lynch. We can still make it happen and it's much better than elsewhere. Know there's only just over a day till the deadline but really not feeling the current wagons as much as I should be right now. Also hate absolutely hate Shinoris lurking play, it's as if he's not even playing the game at the moment, know that he already apologized for 'bad play' but him standing back and non-contributing and just prod-dodging isn't a way to redeem that, just a way to stay outside of the spotlight, might re-visit him again tomorrow just for securities sake.

Unvote, Vote; 4nxiety

LETS DO THIS.

Oh and Thor, what you're missing is that my #1 point wasn't just 'Feysal tunnels as town' but rather 'The meta case against Feysal is wrong' and that's what Zdenek was disagreeing with. He said that his town play in AFFC (Or whatever the name of the game was) is different to here in activity level, he then proceeded to look at a scum game of Feysals (Chrono Trigger) and said his activity level and posting rate there matches here and therefore ended his statement saying he believes he's playing to scum-meta = scum here. What I think you're getting overly caught up about (Wrongly so) is his comment of Feysal not having suspects in Chrono Trigger, him saying it was pointed out as a scum-tell against him and therefore he doesn't think the existence of suspects points away from it being Feysals scum game.

[Regfan]

To regfan, I've explained my town read on MockingJaye. Yes, there's a serious lack of posting from her, but when she showed up she looked okay. It's true that she fits with both scum teams, but for me the game is not at the point where I'm willing to lynch a slot that's not a scum read because of PoE. That said, Anxiety's push against Jal when he replaced in, and now backing off of Thor is a problem for me, but only if one of them flips scum, and I'd rather investigate that possibility by lynching Thor.

His change from being comfortable and wanting Jal lynched very strongly to not wanting Thor or not as much as wanting me lynched is god awful but it doesn't only work if there's a linkage between them (As in it's not better if Thorstown, which I lean towards being the case). The change looks highly highly like him trying to not be imprinted on a Thor lynch if it goes through as well as leaving him to say "See, I wanted Regfan more at the end of yesterday!"

PEdit; Thor, read the flipped scum, then read mockingjaye, then read 4nxiety, then join me.

[Regfan]

Mockings only mentions of Bvoigt are spoilered below. She states she'll get around to him, never does until just before deadline, states she's comfortable with his lynch but votes Stefan. Comes very much across as her avoiding commenting on partner until she knows that he's not going to be the lynch in which case she's 'fine with him too'. Not just that but this is actually her only mention of the Sala/Sapor slot as well. With both Bvoigt/Sapor being the cross-leading wagons D1 her avoiding taking a stance on them, jumping on the other leading wagons and hoping they can all ride out a lynch is scumplay. Bvoigt subsequently never mentioned Mjay other than to list her in his town pile. Sala never mentioned her other than to put her in the null pile. Sapors only mention of the slot is to state that it hasn't posted much, is near the hurricane area making inactivity null and sticking it in the null pile. All up interactions work near perfectly for her to be Aegon-scum. On the flip side though she never mentioned DCL other than to say she was going to re-read him and later on saying he reads 'genuine' and ignoring him, DCL/Red also never mentioned her so while she fits perfectly with Aegon there's nothing pointing away from her being Stannis, it's a nice backup if I'm wrong about her being Aegon.

Spoiler:

My strongest scum reads are definitely on Shadow, Minimum, and Edd, and as a result I've spent most of my time on them and a bit less time on Shinori and Starbuck. I'm still reviewing bvoigt, Feysal, DCL, and Saporo, but I have to get to sleep now. I know it's cutting it short, but I will get back to the game later today.

Regarding the current wagons, neither bvoigt nor Stefan really jumped out at me during the day, so I've been nitpicking their ISOs and the cases against both of them. Basically it's coming down to these last few actual days more than anything else.

(Snip)

On the other hand, I'm worried about the fact that bvoigt has announced he will claim today but is delaying it until there's almost no time left to do anything about it. It feels scummy as it could just result in more confusion and maybe derail the lynch entirely. So, at this point, I could lynch either one of them, but I'm more certain that Stefan actually has an anti-town role even if he isn't necessarily scum, so I'm putting my vote on him. However, I will be checking in for Bvoigt's claim and will move my vote if necessary to avoid a no-lynch.

Vote: Stefan

Prev. Edit: Okay, so then. There's the claim. I'm keeping the vote on Stefan.

[Regfan]

The fact that the Thor-lynch hasn't gone through doesn't change anything at all.

Benmage!Town is probably one of my strongest town-reads and is highly meta related, played with him a few times as scum and a few times as town, as scum he's in the super midst of things, constantly making sure no one has any argument that can be used against him, as town he doesn't, as town he generally is less involved in the game and sadly, lurkier which matches his play this game almost to the tee. Not just that the 'choose self' isn't something I particularly see him doing as scum, find it to be a town-tell from him and like the sheer genuiness behind his posts, even if I do disagree with majority of his reads. His throwing together of a town-list is super reminiscent of Scummies Game where he was town and his interaction with DCL at the end of D1 is something I'd bet almost anything on makes him non-stannis scum automatically decreasing the chances he can be scum. Like his focus around god-handing and dealing with Staeg. Pretty much all up he's very town.

[Regfan]

the point is you are calling me scummy for something that hasn't happened, If this was tommorow and I actually did that then you might have a point.

The fact that it hasn't happened yet literally changes nothing. Your change from "people should see what i see about jal!" to wanting to vote elsewhere and being more confident elsewhere without any explanation to follow makes zero sense as town given how you were treating earlier today. It makes a lot of sense as scum on the other hand (By giving yourself an alternate 'prioritized lynch' for upcoming days as well as avoiding from being on the Thor lynch yourself.

so why did you want MoS to comment on one of your strongest townreads? every other read except for Jal(who was your weakest townread) was a scum read. Explain the difference.

Because it's not about his comments on them impacting my read on them, it's about it assisting my read on him. Him withholding from stating and explaining reads making its literally impossible to follow his thought process and being able to follow and understand someones thought process makes getting and soldifiying a read on them significantly easier. Not just that though but the lack of effort to look into them himself points towards him avoiding from scumhunting and instead fluff/filler posting which is a scum-tell and there wasn't even a hint of him wanting to do it at a later date.

[Regfan]

Timeater, read the quoted below, that combined with the fact that the case on him is a massively wrong and likely put together by scum to avoid partners being lynched today and him not fitting as Aegon at all makes him a very very suboptimal lynch;

3) Being his response to Scumhunter. I find 3) to be a town-tell from him rather than anything else, as scum he's locking himself into stating a 'saying' or 'words' later on that fits with his fake-claim which isn't something that I think Scum!Feysal would do. I also think him lying about getting a messaage like that would be suicide, in other words he's not lying. That means that he legitimately got a worded PM, it's possible he got one that state words that are something aimed for scum but in those cases I don't think he'd bring it up, so yes long story short his statement of recieving the prodding words directed towards Scumhunter is actually a reasonably strong town-tell rather than anything else.

Heading to bed now, hopefully people actually move to 4nxiety by the time I get up.

[Regfan]

11 hours until deadline and I like zero of the leading wagons. I'll be on for the next 8ish hours, if no one joins me on 4nxiety in that time then I'll move at deadline but SERIOUSLY, read Post 2884 and then help me actually lynch fucking scum.

No. It brings up the fact that Feysal only having one scum read that he has not added to since PAGE FUCKING 3, which is not a meta point that tunneling = scummy because that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that he is pushing and pushing for reasons that are sorely fucking outdated, which is scummy. Not that he is tunneling. I never said or implied that he was scummy because he was tunneling.

Yes, you guys did, it was the absolute crunk of Plums case, it's spoilered below, the argument of 'NOT UPDATING READ = SCUM!" that you're bringing up now also isn't strong, interaction wise there's little between Starbuck and anyone, and Scumhunter and anyone because of their sheer lack of contributions and content and Starbuck pretty much didn't post anything for a 10 day or so period with Scumhunter proddoding and trolling for a similar length, so overall there was little to nothing for him to update his read upon or change his mind so you pushing that he's scum for not changing his mind, updating his read and such is pure shit. Seriously.

Spoiler:

I don't buy Feysal being completely tunnelvisioned laser-focused Town.


Seriously. He funnels all of his energy into ignoring the lot of this and repushing his Starbuck case and prod-dodging. Feysal, I am not interested in your Starbuck case or attacking it, and neither is my other head. Frankly. The fact that you're still pushing this case as-is and daring anyone to make points against it if they want to have any say regarding you and your scumhunting is stupid. We've gone past the point that Starbuck is in this game to make argument about Starbuck-specific things. We've gone way way past the point that anyone arguing about a case specifically on Starbuck's actions is useful or coherent. Note that I'm not saying your case isn't lucid; I'm sure in itself it is perfectly understandable. But it's nice and easy to make a case that is days old and have that be your contribution, and challenge everyone who thinks you're being lurky and disingenuous on that. It's nice and easy to make a case and that is damn well why cases are scummy. It's nice to make a dramatic front about "That is the story Starbuck would have us believe, and far too many accepted her explanation".

But that doesn't make you more of a scumhunter or less of a posturer

.

Regfan, you should especially pay attention to this vote unless you already forgot the StefanB lynch.

don't think Shadow faking what essentially is a guilty on Bvoigt here as scum at all, it'd be suicidal which unfortunately means that my town-read on Bvoigt is wrong and even worse it means that Nacho wins a round.

Yes, and your Greenknight case was wrong and my DCL one was right, so all up I don't see any reason why I should be ignoring you being wrong here and sheep.

[Regfan]

Now, if Feysal doesn't exactly feel like he has the material to keep the Starbuck lynch going, then why would he post something like this? If he is the stubborn townie who is absolutely convinced that he is right, then why would he back down now? My opinion is because he got distracted by a shiny juicy wagon and decided to follow it for a while. Yours is...?

I think his moving vote was due to him realizing that his case wasn't going anywhere (Not neccesarily that it was wrong or that he lost faith in it but rather a realization that he's better of voting elsewhere for the time being) and him voting an alternate scum-read makes sense there.

Now, after wagoning a claimed mason, Feysal reanalyzes things a bit by unvoting, unchoosing, and presenting his case on Starbuck. But does he revote her? Nope. Instead, he presents the case for pretty much no reason (there were two solid wagons at that point and he commented on neither of them when he most definitely either could have or attempted to restart the Starbuck wagon on his own, but did not. He eventually ended up voting bvoigt near the end of the day, which is good stuff but he pretty much dropped Starbuck to the wayside until someone voted scumhunter at the beginning of today. Hmmm... [Snip] Speaking of Feysal's tunneling habits, have you noticed that his frustration has been less about the fact that Starbuck was getting lynched and more about my attacks on him?

Don't think making a case but not laying down a vote is a big thing at all. Think he 'he dropped the case by the wayside' is more of him not being super active to push it the way it needed to be done. Do agree that his frustration with being suspected rather than a Starbuck lynch not going through is bad but at the same time I think he's just annoyed, incredibly annoyed with the game as a whole and his last few posts show that.

I'll make you a deal though since it seems inevitable that Feysal will get hammered and no one will join me. If he flips scum, I'll humbly sheep you tomorrow and you'll have control of my vote barring it being on a super strong town-read but if he flips town then I own your vote for the entirety of tomorrow. And just a heads up, this still counts if I die tonight where you can automatically assume that my strongest scum-read is still 4nxiety and vote him. Do we have a deal?

[Regfan]

NO LYNCHING TIME!

Sadly, I'll hammer in the next hour or two.

[Regfan]

Traitors a disgusting role and Faradays an ugly man.

Feysal Stannis-Traitor-Flip points heavily against 4nxiety being Stannis-Scum which is bleh, still think he's Aegon scum but get back home tomorrow where I've got a pin board with what faction everyone likely is/how likely town, want to take a look at that before voting. Tammys motivator flip points towards Shinori being town somewhat; motivator is only useful if there's other town prs, masons don't count since a motivatored mason does nothing, 1-shot roles don't count either from memory? which would leave her only useful for 2 flipped roles, mass-claiming soon might actually be an option though, would confirm it. if we're doing that then Shinori should refrain from outting results until mass-claims finished, then he outs them, either that or he finds a way within rules to code them and refer back to them after a mass-claim. (Insert typical comments from Magua such as lolzmass-claim idiot).

Zdenek, I don't follow either of Tierces bolded quotes there at all being 'traitor hunting', think Tierces whole comments are just her being flavoursome similar to her back and forth of flavour discussion with Tammy and I don't think scum would be expecting a traitor in the setup unless there's only 2 killing scum which I don't think fits balance wise. With there being 3 killing scum they would likely consider a SK/2nd scum-team and that's about it. Also not seeing the 'subvert' thing either.

Molla, know this is the billionth time it's been asked but you can fully go into complete detail about the message you got D1 for me.

[Regfan]

Zdenek, go re-read Tierce-RedFF/DCL interactions. They're not partners. Pretty sure she's town.

[Regfan]

Someone else should take a look at Feysals interactions / mentions of Minimum for me. Probably heading to bed, 6am.

[Regfan]

I lied, I'll go to bed when I finish with this otherwise I'll forget a bunch of what I'm thinking when I wake up. Green = Flipped Town + Self. Blue = Flipped alternate-scum-team to Feysal. Red = Flipped Feysal-scum-team. Orange = People positive Feysal isn't traitor to. Going to look at DCL/Peoples interactions with DCL now. Hopefully can narrow it down a lot more, will say that Feysals probably stuck partners other than DCL in Town/ProbsTown if he could.

Spoiler:

TOWN

Lyanna Stark

I should not even need to explain this, but she strongly reminds me of her town play in the game we played.

Mockingjaye

I remember some people voicing suspicion of her, but I don't see why. She also reminds me of past town games, and she made a strong entrance post. She has been missing, but that is understandable due to the hurricane scare.

MagnaofIllusion

I think I've said before that he is never obvtown, since I've seen him called that in every scum game of his I've been in, but I think he is town in this game. I don't expect him to live long enough that I'd have to second guess myself.

Plum's Yo Mamma

I've liked their contributions, and seen a glimpse or two of the inner workings of their hydra, and they looked convincing. I would like to know the status of their Shinori read though. They had a scum read on Hyperion, but that sort of disappeared after Shinori replaced in.

Regfan

Strong entrance and good thoughts, which I've come to expect from him as town.

Plessiezarus

Reads as strong town for scumhunting and questioning other players.

Pandora

Simply put, I agree on the hydra dissonance making them town. In addition, I liked how relaxed Shadoweh sounded to me.

BBmolla

Relaxed town, seems very unlike his scum self, seems unconcerned with what others think of him or his ideas.

SnowStorm

greenknight

Masons.

LEANING TOWN

Minimum

Not obvtown, but not suspicious to me either. I'm content to wait and see how their play develops.

Tyene Sand

I think our disagreements are settled now, and I ended up with a town feel from her responses to me.

Dolorous Edd

I had them as null very long, or as possible scum by process of elimination, but their response to my desire to kill them seemed clearly town to me.

kortul

He seems to be progressing systematically at reading and establishing reads, and I like that as probable town.

Shinori

I liked the point about them becoming a hydra, and especially admitting the new head had played mafia before and offering meta.

StefanB

He looks like confused town, and him catching and correcting his own mistakes indicates that he is trying to figure things out.

Benmage

He seems to be acting like his usual, undeservedly arrogant self. I don't like how he once called me town and later called me a good choice, but sadly that is nothing new to him. I remember the incident where he deliberately voted one of his town reads.

Saporerint

I know Salamence was suspected for the way he jumped on me, but I've seen him do the same and flip town cop. I also had a thought about his walls - they are neither in alphabetical or signup order, or any other order I could determine. That suggests he would have been moving the names around trying to work out where they belonged, which would mean scumhunting. On Saporerint I have nothing yet.

NULL

Staeg

Apart from his questionable vote on kortul, I don't remember anything he has said or done this game. Need to look into.

Albert B. Rampage

Neither he or his predecessor has done enough to base a meaningful read on.

Shadow1psc

I don't actually find him all that suspicious. He has been attacked all day for not scumhunting enough, and he has not made any effort to appease the town, nor has he reacted aggressively, like I would expect from him as scum.

Seraphim

I liked pappum's entry post, but that is pretty much all the content we ever got from this slot.

Mastermind of Sin

I have no idea how to read him when he is acting like this.

Jal

He is pretty much a non-entity to me, as nothing has caught my attention that I could remember.

LEANING SCUM

bvoigt

He has twice attacked my case on Starbuck, and me through it, which does not please me in the least. I still need to finish that ISO though, I haven't been able to do that yet.

DCLXVI

I view redFF as a village idiot and basically unreadable. As for DCLXVI, I hated his choose on me for being too neutral. I don't even know what he means by that.

SCUM

Starbuck

Not going to explain this again now, I've done so often enough.

[Regfan]

Will get to everything else about this game in 12-24 hours including explaining why Tierce isn't Stannis-Scum but two quick things. First Magua, Shinori said investigative role, not protective role, I think another investigative role for town is unlikely (I'd consider his role and Staegs as investigative) and given all the goon flips can see a scum rolecop sort of role being out there, think outting it is probably vital and needed (Also the 'out it if it's not on a town-read comment I don't follow since why would he investigate a town-read). And secondly, these don't match:

Shit I just realized I forgot to take something out of my notes So apparently I recieved a letter from someone, it says that Aegon Targaryen's forces are split up so that some do not know who the others are. After some extensive research(AKA, googling Aegon Targaryen) I've come to the conclusion this is probably good knowledge for the town to know because they look like bad guys.

(Speaking of which, BBmolla, was that information you heard in your role PM, or a mod message was just randomly sent to you in the middle of the day?)

Latter.

Molla, know this is the billionth time it's been asked but you can fully go into complete detail about the message you got D1 for me.

It was in my role PM and it says I know this Kingdom inside and out so I know Aegon forces are split at the start of the game.

[Regfan]

Fair enough. That makes sense.

[Regfan]

Neither AFFC and ASoS had masons though and from what it looks like scum have less power in this then in the other two games. Not just that though but with a motivator in the game I'd say it's super unlikely for us to have a strong investigative role that can potentially get two investigations in a night.

[Regfan]

Mulled this game over in my head on the way home today (And finally home so should be able to get back to full activity tonight in 4-5 hours) and I don't think Molla fits as scum at all. Him lying about getting the message during the day to avoid being night-killed makes sense regardless of his alignment however the way that he came out and stated as much is genuine. Very genuine. All in all his role and play meta-wise point highly towards him being town.

Tierce, I'll ask you this: Do you think Stannis-Scum would be told that Aegon-Scum is split up? I don't. That removes him being Stannis-Scum. Do you think as Aegon-Scum he'd come out and state the make up of his faction? I don't. So overall just from that alone he's town.

Shinori, you should out your investigation. More information now is super needed.

[Regfan]

Wanted this to be much more complete but looks like going to have to mull on some things and re-read a few more people tomorrow.

- Not sure how I got 4nxiety as non-stannis earlier, somehow mixed up replacements in my head, Timeater isn't Stannis for Feysals constant pushing on the slot, no 4nxiety. Still find Timeaters play yesterday on the later end including his back-and-forths with Tammy town. Magua, explain to me how you don't and I want a summary of your updated reads.

- Zdenek isn't scum. No way, no how. Minimum/Tierce whoever it was pointed it out. His scum and town meta and games are significantly different, as town he gets caught up in tunnels, paranoia and stupid theories, he's been doing it this whole game with Tierce, he did it with Tammy in G v E. It's how he operates as town; hopefully he'll realize he's wrong on Tierce soon but regardless he's not for lynching ever.

- Mollas town via role and not fitting with either alignment and not for lynching ever as well.

- Tierce isn't scum of any kind, Sapors interactions with her and her pointing out towards Sapors slip all come across as her genuinely scumhunting, it's very town which makes her non-aegon. Her push on DCL and DCLS reaction and response towards her for it also is non-Stannis making her town. And Zdenek, I know you'll go over the argument of she started a choose wagon on DCL and choosing someone is what scum want instead of lynch ect. ect. but her reasoning for liking her vote vote makes her moves very logical and something that makes a super amount of sense. Not just that but read her RedFF scum-read and her attempt to get me to read into the slot on D1. She's not scum. She needs to help get some stronger stances on players, but not scum.

- Shinori needs to out his result. I have very minor things interaction wise that rule him out of both factions, wouldn't bet the game on them being right, do think his claim makes more sense as town, think the way he outted it was dumb but genuine and his posts of 'do you think scum have x/y/z' is a town-tell. He needs to start being active but he's likely town.

- Thor/Jal slot isn't Stannis scum for the spoilered, plus for DCLs vote on Jal and his 'jumping on big wagons' comment, can't find where he wasn't Aegon scum but it's in a sticky notes or notepad somewhere, will hunt for it in the morning but not happy with his lynch now;

Spoiler:

@DCL: Unfortunately, you're the Plain Jayne non-PR slot people were hoping for.

But I also happen to be town, the goal of this game isn't to lynch all the vt's, its to lynch all the scum.

@DCL

: I get it. I've been there. What's your end of day reads though?

- PlumNacho isn't Aegon, traitor flip of Feysal and not actual killing scum doesn't point them against being Stannis. Will find out later.

- Minimum isn't Aegon. Might be Stannis. Not leaning that way heavily right now though. Want more Mina posting.

- Kortuls scumhunting and posts are still very genuine; want to look at him interaction wise with the flipped scum but think town still.

- Pandora/Magua need a big re-analysis. Was doing it but then got caught up with the cricket, will ponder on what I read tonight and do the rest tomorrow.

So all up 4nxiety/AV are preferable lynches. Want to re-look and finish with a few others thought. Hopefully I'll break this game soon.

[Regfan]

Don't think there's another way for traitor to be recruited. Sometimes traitor can't be recruited even via a kill as well.

There's plenty of Stannis people that could be in the game. His wife, daughter, Melissandre and a bunch of others work too.

Faction sizes are likely 4. So it'd be 3 killing scum + traitor for stannis faction.

Missing night kill is possibly two things 1) A roleblock occurring from Plezz, potentially on Bvoigt which would explain a bit. 2) Scum double killing a mason.

[Regfan]

And i totally don't see Aegons killing a mason, with Shadow promising to torture bvoigt. Even if Shadow was telling a lie, imagine them killing a mason, and Shadow asking in the morning "so, bvoigt, whom did you shoot?".

Yes but by this logic it's impossible for Feysal to have been recruited, right?

[Regfan]

It's somewhat depressing that two investigations have been used on me, albeit one being fairly useless.

I'll get to this game and finish laying down my thoughts/reads tomorrow. Want one think answered though;

Shadoweh, how much have you and Quilford been hydradiscussing this game lately, where is he, why has he cut down on posting and what are your individual full reads.

[Regfan]

With a JOAT and a Voyeur claim now out as well as two other claimed PR's and seven dead town PR's it's mass-claim time. There's literally no reason against it at this point, there's likely no other power out there and it'll allow us full organization and information to work out which claims are likely legitimate or not.

First instinct is that 4nxietys claim checks out; That being Mocking roleblocking DE N1 is plausible given her read on him and 4nxiety investigating me last night and then backing of his scum-read on me also checks out. Do want the other two nights abilities ect. outted, see nothing that really should be kept hidden there.

Also leaning towards Pandoras claim checking out but I don't know if that's more because no matter how many times I go over their ISO the D1 play strikes me as super town or because their actions role wise make sense. Either way not interested in lynching them at the moment. I can't work out what their claim is ever good for other than proving peoples fake-claims/fake-actions or confirming that something was done. All up seems like the useless role that Faraday would throw in and the setup seems to be lots of PR's, little power from each to create some balance and decrease swinginess.

---

Moving on from that I'm very confident in my Zdenek, Kortul, Tierce town-reads and Molla being town via role (See Maguas point about him still possibly being an Aegon-traitor but not worth hunting traitors at this point when there's still likely much more scum so he stays in the not-lynching pile) as well as Shinori (Who I continue to feel like his way around claiming initially is probably town, if anyone disagrees want to hear why though). Need to do that re-read on Thor fitting or not fitting with Aegon tonight, that'll be an absolute key thing for me to do*(to remind me to do it). With Pandora and 4nxiety added to that pile both for different things (At least until a mass-claim confirms likely existence of their roles or denies it) and PlumNacho going to be revealed at the end of the night.

That only leaves me with a few people to be where likelyscum is and that's inside of Magua, AV, Minimum, Timeater and Thor if above isn't right re;him. Even though I've already gone through them mostly with everything that's now been outted want to do one last look at them*. What I am fairly confident still about inside them is that AV(MoS)'s slot doesn't fit Aegon-Scum and Minimum doesn't fit Aegon-Scum either. That means hunting Aegon-Scum Magua, Timeater and Thor all fit as likely suspects, so re-reading their interactions is key*. The other end of the spectrum I was fairly sure that Timeater wasn't Stannis-Scum but the point that Magua makes about Feysals role likely not knowing partners and instead only being able to 'neighbourize partners' actually makes a significant amount of sense given what the flip says which makes Feysals push on the slot hardcore D1 completely null and void and in fact if anything makes his lack of annoyance and pushing through of the slot yesterday as somewhat more likely to be Stannis-Scum due to it.

So for all those who don't actually read wall posts and look for a tldr; Not interested in lynching any of Zdenek, Tierce, Molla, Shinori, Pandora, 4nxiety, Kortul and PlumNacho today. I need to look back at Thor but I'm thinking StannisScumPool: AV / Magua / Timeater / Minimum. And AegonScumPool: Timeater / Magua / Thor(?).

[Regfan]

I'll decide on the order later tonight and it'll be up in 12 hours or so. If anyone wants to air some recommendations to it I'd love to hear them.

wish you would reconsider zdenek and not clear him because of meta. It is not unheard of for people to adapt to their meta.

If it were a minor change I'd understand but his scum and town play are very different and he's very much locked in his town meta here. It's not just that though but I'm finding his reads and theories genuine which means he actually believes in them to a super degree. I think his change of read on you from undecided to willing to lynch to not willing to lynch is more just him being unsure on his reads rather than him buddying up to you.

[Regfan]

Mass claim is a terrible idea.

You think there's more town power than the

seven

dead town prs and the three, possibly four claimed ones?

[Regfan]

If you do not think there's more town power, then you agree with me that a massclaim is pointless and scum will do exactly what I said.

I think scum will do what you said; yes. I also want them to do as much, I think if there's no more claimed power roles than 4nxiety and Pandora are most certainly legitimate. The reasoning behind the mass-claim being needed or not is to get a feel about the legitimacy of the claims. Lets flip this around though (I'm assuming you agree there's likely not much if no more power), what is the harm in mass-claiming? Right now the next 2 nights or so of night-kills are already a given for scum; Pandora, 4nxiety, Myself and potentially PlumNacho depending on how today ends. So what's the real downside?

[Regfan]

I can very much get behind an AV lynch. Much better than Zdenek/Thor/Tierce alternatives. And will get to that reading I promised soon. Procrastinated far too much today and got caught up doing other things. Also speaking of inactivity, Timaeter needs to be a lot more active.

You massclaim and you guarantee that scum gets to shoot PRs. There's no guesswork there for them anymore -- there's no "Well, X is playing it really quiet and soft, he might be a PR, maybe we should risk it?" sort of thing. Look at Benmage. Why did Benmage die? Benmage ruins towns. What scum, in their right mind, would kill Benmage? Scum who thought he was a PR. You massclaim and you remove that. And that's the best case of everyone claiming VT.

And since all the scum are going to claim VT anyways, Tierce, you're removing any chance that they'll crosskill.

Benmage died because he was obvtown. That's likely all there is to it. Now we already have a lot of PR's claimed and clears, scum already have targets for at night, how you're not understanding that I don't get. By mass-claiming we're making this more information shared, more information to get reads of. Better chance of lynching scum. I still want mass-claim and you've got one post to convince me otherwise or else I'll either start a popcorn of a specified claiming order of. Also not speaking of claims, who else is scum other than Timeater?

[Regfan]

Vote: Sapororerint

At page 3, that's the best read I have so far

on someone who's still alive.

This screams as you attempting to dumb-tell. I don't buy that you'd not know who is and isn't still alive given there's a vote count every page, sometimes even two and a lot of the discussion so far has been based about interactions with that slot.

[Regfan]

Sapor is dead, you can stop attempting to play dumb now. Not just that though but Sapor didn't play until late in the game meaning you'd have to have checked to find out that Sapor = Salam and therefore would have at the same time seen the slot is dead.

[Regfan]

If you looked at that you'd have seen

everyones

name and thereby would have easily worked out that's not the alive/dead list.

[Regfan]

I'm clear and that's been brought up a bunch of times in the last 2-3 pages and given that you've read Tierces posts where she comments towards you then it means you're reading at least part of the posts put forward so voting me just continues this 'playing dumb' charade of yours and what you gain is simple, dumb-telling is done for the purpose of having people town-read you based on it, it's a very common scum strategy.

[Regfan]

I'm not voting you yet because I want to solidify my reads elsewhere given that it's likely I die tonight and want to deal with mass-claim needed things.

The benefit you get is simple; dumb-tells are generally read as town and given that there's a wagon on you and a lot of people stating willingness to vote you you're essentially forced to do something desperate and force-dumb-telling fits that exactly. And the 'why would i pick someone alive rather than dead11' is simple, voting someone alive is dumb-telling at all nor will it change how anythings going which means that voting someone alive would likely secure the lynch on you, doing something else drastic gives you the chance of otherwise occurring.

And Tammy clearing me on a name claim? That hasn't happened. I have however been cop-cleared.

[Regfan]

And no, I'm not dumb, and I've never tried to look dumb.

Dumb players are not always town, so take that bullshit away.

Voting a player that's dead when the dead/alive list clearly shows who's alive and there's a vote count showing who's alive

every single page

and then stating 'woops mixed it up with the op where everyones names listed and no one is dead!' and then proceeding to vote me after there's been a lot of discussion about how I'm clear

is acting dumb

. And it's not dumb players = town. It's dumb tells. There's a difference. An example would be someone stating "Scum don't have daytalk!!" in a game where there's daytalk listed in the OP.

4nxiety cleared me. He used his 1-shot investigation on me and recieved Cersei Lannister. Tammy has nothing to do with it and my "Tierce mentioned X/Y" has to do with the fact that you

have

been reading at least part of the thread and the things that you're pretending you don't know are things you would have to know even with the little you're claiming to have read which is why it's all you force-dumb-telling.

[Regfan]

AV, what's this then:

Choose: MoI

Choose: Feysal

[Regfan]

If you actually read the first three pages you'll see agreement on people choosing their scum-reads. I don't buy that you don't know that.

Very very very happy with an AV lynch right now. Potentially even the point where claiming may hold of to tomorrow.

Still want to do the reading on the 3-4 players left to go through so give me a day or two before we actually do lynch.

[Regfan]

It was the main and nearly only topic for the first 3 pages.

[Regfan]

Okay, finally took the time to look at the things I wanted to. Not sure where I was getting Jal/Thor non-aegon but interactions fit so the 'Thor doesn't fit as any alignment' is probably wrong. Still very much wanting AV lynched over him though. Went back and did a re-look over Timeater and really not liking his current play at all, his complete lack of comment on Lyanna flipping town is unsettling. Also given that Maguas point about Feysal/his slots interaction and feysal likely not knowing partners him fitting again for both alignment means he's probably worth looking into, especially given that feysal really didn't push back on him at all when it looked like it was pluasibly a Feysal vs Timeater wagon battle. I still feel good about Magua, his play and scumhunting feels genuine and matches his TownMeta but by no means would I bet the game on him actually being town. Have similarish feelings about Minimum, except a lot more of wanting Mina to post and disliking how she hasn't even made an attempt to make an appearance of late, seems content letting CES cruise on the slot which isn't really what I'd expect of TownMina, either way her not fitting as Aegon and suspecting AV a lot more means she's another days looking into.

So about where I am right now I'd say not to lynch BBMolla, 4nxiety, Pandora, Zdenek, Tyene, Kortul, Shinori (Possibly lesserso than the others) in the upcoming days and to lynch inside of Timeater, Minimum, Thor and Magua in that order of preference but I'd say looking at interactions with flipped scum and them again later on when there's more flips even is really key and crucial.

Happy to lynch AV now.

Vote: AV

Vote: AV

That's L-1.

[Regfan]

4nxiety, Zdenek has been relatively clear about what his thoughts on that slot is lately, he initially had a gut-town read on her and stated that her potential to be on both scum-teams is fairly null for him since he thinks it's just her being inactive regardless of alignment. His change of opinion on that towards the 'acceptable lynch because of #1274' has to do with her stating she'd re-read people who flipped scum but never getting around to it while voting what I think were counterwagons to the flipped scum. I think with him it's a battle of finding her suspicions to be genuine as well as her posting vs bad comments on scum.

Nacho, I'd agree that Magua is probably town but the issue is PoE means someone has to be scum and given that there's 4 flipped scum and likely another 4 who fits that bill? AV, that's one. Timeater probably, that's two. Minimum or Thor maybe more likely Mininum, that's a third likely, where's the scum? Tell me please.

[Regfan]

Mina, really what I want from you are reads and stances with a small amount of reasoning behind it, I just need to be able to follow your thought process and understand where you're heads at because when you've shown as much in the past I've been able to read you correctly.

Timeater, the BB thing has been explained a number of times. The fact that he knew there was an Aegon faction and the make up of it means he can't be Stannis-Scum and if the Aegon faction is split up or there's traitors and killing mafia inside it I don't see him coming forward and revealing such information as a killing mafia, it draws a target on his back that he has no reason to place whatsoever. The only thing I buy with him is being a traitor and not interested in lynching someone when it's either town/traitor. As for Magua, it's meta and genuine scumhunting and a few other things. Explain your AV-Town-Read for me given everything though.

[Regfan]

Magua, I disagree because I do think Benmage was miles more obvtown than Shinori. I also don't think scum are aiming for 'bigger-threats' but are just removing players they consider unlynchable so they have potential lynchbait still alive when the game progresses.

CES, even though we've hydraed as scum together I can't read you confidently, or not confidently enough.

Zdenek, I think you've misunderstood the context of Thors posts. All of them are him saying that he doesn't think Molla is a good lynch.

You're just stalling and I should have lynched MoS days ago.

Agree with this completely. I think as town knowing he's put himself in a bad position here he'd attempt to make up for it, scumhunt, state reads, read the thread, at least finish reading the RVS where he claims he's really strong at and all up actually contribute. His Minimum vote and post is just him stalling this out.

[Regfan]

Bleh, heading to work soon and want to mull this over during the day. AVoxs play screams scum but the claim points towards town, we haven't had any sort of protective role flip at all so far and rolestopper is similar to a doctor and jailkeeper and can see Faraday using it in place of those roles, only thing that I don't buy about it is that it being 1-shot is too limited, interested in others thoughts on that though. Will check in a few times at work.

Zdenek, those quotes that you grabbed if anything point towards the claim being legitimate, it makes it look like MoS didn't understand his role and thought it might have been similar to a roleblocker and thus wanted to know if Shadow1s result could have been wrong due to his N1 action. But in truth it doesn't roleblock at all.

Unvote.

Unvote

[Regfan]

I want to lynch the AV slot so badly but I can't bring myself to do it. The claim makes so much sense as town and while I understand the argument that MoS might have used his power in a townie fashion purely to clear himself of it later in the game I think he'd have mentioned as much inside a scum QT and I think if that were the case then AV would leap on claiming much earlier than he did. Also that sort of role in a scum-team can prevent a scum member from being cross killed, I don't see him wasting that sort of thing on a townie that often, not from him anyway given he lost his last scum game due to cross-kills.

Kortul, I don't really agree with Stannis faction gaining from rolestopping Shadow1 that much, they wouldn't have known if Bvoigt was legtiimate or not meaning they'd have seen it was two scenarios 1) Shadow would be investigating a town player and could be getting a clear on them; in that case why would they roelstop Shadow1 guarenteeing he lives to out that result, clears hurt both scum-teams and in situation 2) Shadow would be getting a guilty, sure in that case it means that the next days lynch isn't a Stannis member but that's the extent of the benefits. So really while I get where you're trying to come from and while I absolutely hate it I think the claims not a chance in the world Aegon-Scum, less likely Stannis-Scum and more likely town.

I really like a lot of the thought-process inside Minas large wall posts, eases my mind of that slot quite a bit.

fuck. Regfan, double sheep me. you promised.

You have my (s)word, plus I actually do very much agree with this lynch at the moment.

Vote: Timeater

Vote:

Timeater

[Regfan]

Ok, let's check it. The assumption is that MoS is Stannis rolestopper, and the question is - is there any benefit to a faction to use this on Shadow, This is night 1. Due to BBmola "letter" thing, Stannis are already aware that this is multiball. There is an odd-day vig claim - it has to be dealt with somehow, because either this is town vig, or a rival scum. One option is to simply kill him. But there is another - to make sure that a claimed torturer lives through the night to tell whether vig is real, and if he isn't, Stannis don't have to waste a shot and can use a lynch instead. If Shadow will confirm that bvoigt is town vig on day 2, then nothing is lost - they can kill the vig during second night, but have an added bonus of a protection claim on a conf town PR for one of faction members.

This is all leading back to the one point that's been brought up against his claim being legitimate and that's 'Mafia can claim town-cred because of saving a town PR' and that logic can be used on

any

claim that has ever happened, the fact dwindles down to the usage of the role makes sense from town and the role makes sense from town, it makes no sense from aegon scum and it's a stretch to make sense from stannis scum since it'd be them wasting a 1-shot usage.

As an added bonus, this is a claim that any faction member can use, if needed, not just the actual rolestopper.

No...? Lets say scum member #2 claims the role, AV flips rolestopper then scum #2 becomes confirmed scum.

[Regfan]

Tierce, I'll explain Timeater-Aegon-Scum potential tomorrow morning.

[Regfan]

Do very much think AV is town right now which is bleh.

Tierce, Timeater works as Aegon scum because Sala completely ignored her and what was going on re; her earlier in the game but jumped on Feysal and Minimum when they garned attention. Can very much see this being him not sure what stance to take on partner and instead just jumping on posisble alternate wagons. Sapors comments on the slot as well make sense as a partner but overall really the only reason I'm relatively confident in it being scum is process of elimination. I have far too many town-reads and while I know that it means that a few are likely wrong I don't think

all

the scum are inside my town/null-reads which leaves Timeater being likely scum. Scumhunter lurking and not taking part in the game matches his scum play, as town he's engaged. Timeaters replace in other than his back-and-forth with Tammy isn't anywhere near as aggressive or engaged as I expect from him and that's nothing to do with him being V/LA at the moment. But how about this, instead of Timeater you can give me a better alternative for a lynch because I'm not seeing one.

[Regfan]

@Reg/Max

- Whats troubling me about your analysis is of me its completely outside of what I have been doing. Re-assess your town reads and take another look at my behavior. I've been really busy. Notice I've been barely posting on the site, if at all. This is a huge difference from the normal timeater. I haven't even gotten around to playing xcom ;-;. Read Behind The Maiden - you know Tammy and I loathe each other. I dont see how that is outside myself at all and I dont see how thats enough to jusitify any sort of read on me. You usually can read me so easy its no problem and we never clash. This isn't the case this game and its troubling me alot.

I know you've been busy but that doesn't change the fact that your replace in 'claim' 'oh its been claimed' 'i towntell hardcore' is forced and the carry on from that was you insisting Tammy was mafia for reasons I can't comprehend then having no reaction whatsoever to her flipping town. (And I know you loathe Tammy, thus why in my previous post I said your aggression and hatred back and fro with her was genuine but that's the only thing so far by you that I can see matching your town meta). But lets look at it another way, you're stating AV is 'lurking' after pressure dropped on him, stating that you find him scummy for it despite him actually posting quite a lot in the 24 hours before you post and also stating that he's planning rl honeymoon and other rl busy things, so him being busy and inactive due to rl obligations is a scum-tell but for you it's not? It's a stance that makes no sense coming from your point of view if you're town. Literally none and your scum-hunting and town-hunting this game has been all over the place, there's no thought process I can follow. In mafia behind the maiden your reads and paranoia while wrong was understandable, here it's not.

[Regfan]

Caught up at work, will try and find some time to get to this game tonight.

[Regfan]

Sorry about the lack of activity, work and a few of my obligations have finally quietened down so I should be able to spend a lot of time on this game. If there's anything anyone wants me to specifically look into at this point then best to let me know within the next day or so.

Do very much think Tierce has a point re; Salas reads list, they're manually typed and while I don't think he thought about it in depth before putting it together there's a good chance he put scum in similar spots inside the lists and I'd bet all generally in the middleish to bottom of the lists. I know that in DEFCON3 where I was scum and made a read list posts where I stuck Vi/Pooky/LLD/Gamma in positions like that and it wasn't 'random'.

Going to take a look at the Thor vs Zdenek wall battle in more depth later as well as look at 4nxietys 'points' about Zdenek and Minimums on Thor.

---

Timeater, I know this'll turn into a 'paragraph/wall' but please read it and respond, [re; Post 3470] 1) The early posts being forced isn't exactly weak though, it's all related to the manner in which you attempted to claim. I remember in Kdubs game Faraday and I had auto-strong-town-read on your predecessor for unprompted claims and information revealed and your replace in partial claim then progression onto stating you realized that your predecessors has already claimed all looks forced and looks like an attempt to work into the meta you think I hold about claiming. I don't find any of that or your thought process about it natural at all. 2) It's not about your read on Tammy being wrong, heck you having a wrong read is probably more of a town-tell than a scum-tell but that's besides the point, the issue I hold with it is your lack of reaction towards her dying and flipping town, it's not what I know of you as town, you're reactive to flips and information, there's none of that re; Tammy at all. 3/4) Then read the game, excuses of "I haven't read the game thus my scumhunting can't be bad" really isn't going to help you at this point, it's months into a game (You're right about that part at least) and we need stances, reads, opinions backed by information revealed in the thread, if you're just jumping around reading a quarter or less of the thread and posts then you're useless. So if you want to change my mind about your slot then actually give me something that can do as much because right now given how Scumhunter lurkerlurked in the thread and hates being scum and his play matches it and Starbucks lack of engagement in the thread points to scum I have a lot of trouble stopping myself and everyone from lynching you.

[Unrelated to that post your push here on Tierce at least is wrong, I'm fairly confident she's town and her 'talking down' to people and 'raging/wanting justice' isn't a scum-tell at all, especially not in this game which has been incredibly frustrating at more than just times. I can sympathize with her attitude and emotions about that a lot. I hate hate hate hate AV"s play up until his recent wall and if there were a lot of mslynches available and I wasn't committed to the game I'd have lynched him for the sake of it but everything points to his claim being legitimate. When Tierce said you were being scummy/forced she wasn't talking about you asking if she was confirmed via non-play, you're misrepresenting her when you state as much, she was talking about your earlier useless questions about Victorian ect.]

[Regfan]

Timeater, I'm not going to spend time re-looking at Plum at this point, their alignment will be confirmed at the end of the day so it's not worth spending time on now. I'll go re-look at Tierce for you

critically

if you want but I'm fairly sure nothing will change my mind about that town read at this point and that won't happen until after I look at Thor/Zdenek tonight. Also the Sala list isn't a 'weak' thing, scum subconsciously treat partners differently in a list, I've done it before as scum so there's likely something there. The short version of what I'm trying to say re: point 4) is that Kdubs game showed you that I treat unprompted claims as a town-tell, your attempt at an unprompted claim here looks like you forcefully attempting to meet that town-tell, it doesn't feel natural.

About Tierce, I don't think she 'instaneously' decarled you hardscum. Her progression towards the vote is very follow-able, after unvoting AV she has no scum-reads and states that she doesn't think you fit as Stannis-Scum thus wants to know how you can fit as Aegon-Scum (Post 3337) and then states that she understands my reasoning for how you fit as Aegon but wants to check it up, states she doesn't have or know any better alternative (Post 3385). She states frustration with you and says she's likely to be biased when reading into you due to it (Post 3414), states that meta-wise she's reading you as scum but wants to do more reading into you (Post 3515), then gets annoyed with your spam posting, is annoyed with your play thus the 'JUSTICE' element and throws a vote down on you due to it all. It's a sequence that makes a lot of sense. The only point you have about her is that she didn't stop and respond to you by slowing pointing out what she found 'fake' but she did reference that she wasn't talking about your 'i didn't ask you were conftown by play miss' discussion as the fake posting but rather before that.

[Regfan]

Oh and Pandora I really really want to see a lot more posting from you. You've just been floating on by for far too long now.

[Regfan]

In fact Pandora, I get that you've been all "This Timeater lynch is wrong Starbuck was town is town vote anyone else!" lately and most of your posts have constituted of saying you don't want a part of this day but I just went and re-read you and you never had a town read on Starbuck for her early game play at all. The closest you went to stating something about her alignment wise was saying that Feysal had a point about her lurking and she was in Quilfords reads lists null pile so really not getting your play at all. Especially not getting how you seem to be supporting

both

Thor / Zdenek being scum.

[Regfan]

Considering I was arguing with someone I was voting, it isn't hard to defer that the person they are attacking, that I thought was 'hopelessly confused', was town and continues to be even with a honkingly sad wagon building on her slot. A wagon built out of mostly people I would have trusted otherwise too except for the weirdo at the start. But no. Let's ignore the suspiciously cross-voted wagons and lynch the random dumbwit because he's irritating and insert scum argument here. You're the one with the two votes here. You're the one that The Scum trusts to lead us to the mislynch promised land. Why not instead of going down the path you're comfy traveling, Why don't you reread Zdenek's anti-Tyene crusade or Thor's sardonic laughing at anyone who posts in his direction play and figure out where you're wrong?

Arguing with someone that's attacking Starbuck doesn't mean you have to have a town-read on Starbuck, just means that you have to disagree with the reasoning put forward against the slot being town. The only literally only thing you've mentioned is her being 'hopelessly confused' and I don't see how that's something that is attributed with town over scum, scum can be thrown into the deep end in a large game with multi factions and can deal with pressure by being 'confused'. You've really put forward no decent reasoning whatsoever of why the slot is town but think it's okay for you to play a whole mighty "This is a mslynch you guys suck", it's not something that makes sense given what you've claimed about the slot and considering what Quilford thought of the slot as well and yes from the looks of things you two discussed your reads on her. Not just that but the case on Timeater isn't just annoying scum at all. Plus the argument you're using of "Scum gave you double vote so you can mslynch" means nothing in multi-faction especially when Stannis-Scum gave it to me and I'm voting what I think is Aegon-Scum.

[Regfan]

Just waddled through the Thor and Zdenek exchanges and now I have a headache. Summary of it is both of them are just misrepresenting the others comments to strengthen the case on the other person, very few legitimate scum-tells inside there. I'd say Thor comes out slightly worse through it all.

Think really overall the only legitimate points that Thor put up against Zdenek is 1) Zdeneks reasoning for having AV as a suspect or at least remaining voting him is incredibly weak, it's merely a 'scum playing for towncred by planning long in advance' angle but I think that's a minor scum tell if anything. 2) Zdenek stating that his scum-reads on both Timeater and Thor and stating he's happy with both lynches right now can be read as leaving multiple doors open but given the amount of town-reads elsewhere don't think it's too unlikely for him to actually have scum-reads on the two suspected people today so again that's minor - Speaking of which his vote on Thor while Timeater had the most votes means nothing given that his reasoning of Timeater being V/LA would get no reactions is understandable.

On the flip side the legitimate points that Zdenek puts up is that 1) Thors stating that he's based reads and votes with who's most likely to be in both factions, so if someone cannot be one faction he's not so much interested in lynching them however he's never attempted to tie Zdenek to either faction or see if it's plausible for him to work with either to begin with. 2) Thors lack of explanation on Feysal being 'obvtown' and switch from voting him to voting Zdenek for attacking him.


PEdit: Minimum, are you able to follow where Pandoras stance and read on Starbuckscumhuntertimeater comes from?

[Regfan]

I'll respond to Thor later. Only got a minuteish.

Nope. Quilford has her as null in #1136 and Shadoweh mostly talks around Starbuck without giving a direct opinion on her (apart from some early pushing). When Shadoweh does push Starbucktown starting D4, I can't say her reasoning resonates with me either. Wouldn't be surprised if Pandora were scum with Timeater here.

Yeah, the change from disliking the reasoning behind the attacks on the slot to the slot being ubercompletely town came about of nowhere and they've continued that read since then and just repeated dislike of the lynch but not actually given a single reason for it. Looked at their connections and they work with Timeater and flipped Aegonscum might work with Stannis too, would have to read into them but really thinking they're where I'm misreading someone as town.

[Regfan]

Starbucks slot has been a constant scum-read or at least focus for majority of the room all game, so you never coming out and explaining town-reasoning or stating a town-read plainly on the slot for the most part doesn't make sense. Also for one Starbuck isn't exactly a newbie, she's been around for a few years and derp-play doesn't always mean town. And yes, I noticed you stating 'Time replaced into Starbuck-town-slot' which is what I'm talking about, there was a shift from you not taking a completely solid stance on the slot and avoiding calling it anything to you calling it uberobvtown and the jump feels manufactured, while Scumhunter was in the slot you never stated such certainty that the slot was town, you even said one of his posts sounded like scum so I really can't follow your thought process.