Mini 1652: Sweet Dreams - Game Over!

[bji]

Lets lynch Gliffie, EPM, Tmj, West, or johnny

I would narrow that to EPM, TMJ, or West.

[bji]

I was about to say, why remove Gliffie?

I like Gliffie. Gliffie replaced Aero, who I also liked.

[bji]

And you liked Titus.

I only liked Titus at the end because I couldn't believe that SilverWolf would replace out as scum under that amount of minor pressure, especially given that at the time I thought it was actually contrary to the spirit of the game. Her replacing out as scum didn't add up for me. But I was wrong.

I've never not liked Aero/Gliffie for what that's worth. Aero's initial tussle with you seemed really sincere (just like my tussle with you was) and his position was better argued and more rational than mine was.

As you'll recall, that wagon that drove you to L-1 and eventuated your Informed Town claim was heavily influenced by me, Aero, and JohnnyFarrar. Looking back on it, do you think there was a clue in that about who is scum?

[bji]

Also I mean why cut me out of the suspect list? The townreads I am getting are from people who know my play, which is not a camp you've slept in

It's not that you're not a suspect, it's just that I thought that pisskop was putting a list out there to see what others thought and I figured a good response would be to narrow the list. And I decided that narrowing the list was most useful if I could remove at least 2 people. And it came down to a decision between you and West, and I chose West.

I'll be happy to lynch you eventually, but I'd rather lynch West first.

[bji]

I was about to say, why remove Gliffie?

I like Gliffie. Gliffie replaced Aero, who I also liked.

Butt y tho

I do not understand in the slightest what this means.

[bji]

Yes it is. You originally claimed that there nothing new. The fact is there was clearly stuff you should have responded to in the post. You can't just take a large post and then highlight the odd sentence where I repeat something said before, out of context, just to try and show I said nothing new. It's a cheap attempt to score points and town doesn't do that in my experience.

Responding to individual sentences in your original post is not unreasonable at all, especially because I did it in exactly one place, where I thought it made a particularly clear point, and not in any other part of my long posting. That's all I'm going to say about this because this particular sub-argument is pointless.

No, it's not that our position's are irreconcilable, it's your thought process that is. You can't say that:

1

It's possible referencing Titus was innocent and therefore your explanation makes sense.

2

Referencing Titus is still suspicious.
And expect to be taken seriously do you?

Absolutely. Unless you believe that there is no such thing as suspicion of guilt in mafia, only certainty of guilt. Do you believe that?

Except you know that the reason I said I agree with Titus is because I agreed with Titus. It wouldn't be worth saying "I agree with some of what Gliffe is saying but differ in the following...." or something ridiculous to that extent.

You chose Titus to agree with, not pisskop to disagree with or Gliffie to partially agree with. You must admit that this is true. Whether or not this is suspicious is the entirety of the debate here and I do not think we're going to agree, which is why I think our positions are irreconcileable.

Oh look, another quote of mine with the context mysteriously removed.

That was not my intention, and I do not think that anyone following the debate (if anyone was) had any trouble understanding the context of the quote. This is more hot air about irrelevent aspects of the way that I am framing my responses to you. You are clearly looking to doubtcast anything I am saying by attacking not just my statements, but irrelevant aspects of the way that I am making those statements.

Anyway, how is the way me and TMJ behaving consistant with scum bussing?

TMJ asked the same thing later, and in the interest of trying to keep this post shorter, I'll answer this question along with his in a response to his post.

1

You ignored literally every question in 1187, even the part where I asked you to rephrase your own question so I could actually respond.

That is bullshit man. I responded to nearly every single paragraph from post 1187 in post 1197,

including rephrasing my question at the end in response to your request that I do so,

and I even quoted the part of your post that I was responding to in doing so

. I cannot even fathom how you can make this statement!

2

No misrepping != scumhunting.

Whatever man. I'm scumhunting, call it whatever you want.

3

But you

didn't

defend it. When I challenged you, you simply handwaved my entire post away. I had to bait you into defending yourself. And despite the fact it was the first time I comprehensively responded, you claimed there was "nothing new" and tried to quickly put the topic behind us. That's not what the way you treat a top scumread.

I handwaved your post away because you had explicitly stated that you didn't want to talk about it anymore. You said:

"I mean, I am indignant even to respond to this sort of level argument, but I have this horrid feeling that if I don't respond, you're going to clog the thread up more than if I did."

and

"PEdit: @bji - because we should actually be discussing about better stuff than this."

So it seemed to me that you didn't really want to even talk about it.

And by the way, who gives a shit if I temporarily handwaved your post away, I responded to it like 3 posts later when you made it clear that you did want to keep talking about it.

Why do you keep bringing up irrelevent bullshit about the mechanics of this discussion? Is this your way of trying to detract from the actual topic at hand?

If someone challenges your case, especially one of your top scumreads, why back away? Why agree to disagree?

Because I believe that we've made our cases and I don't see them progressing much further with further discussion. That's why. I don't want to waste everyone's time with repetitive arguments.

You can't be serious right?

Yes. I'm happy to let this topic die because I think that it

is

wasting everyone's time. So I'll say now that you are welcome to the final word and I will not respond to you on this topic anymore. I have made my points clear and made them repeatedly as have you. I believe we understand each other, and that no one else even cares.

[bji]

Has Prolapsed claimed or something? Why is nobody trying to lynch him?

If you're going to believe that Prolapsed Brain is scum, you have to believe that he'd be willing to lynch Titus. And say "Solves THAT problem" when doing so. That would be really ballsy.

Also P Brain posted an actual reasonable post with actual reads in post 1160 right before requesting replacement. I want to believe that P Brain was town who was trying to make one final attempt at being helpful before replacing out.

But I've been wrong - really wrong - about replacing-out motivations before, so ...

One more thing of interest, in post 404:

God, so many delicious scums to choose from. It's like a buffet.

Let's go back to this one:

UNVOTE:

VOTE: SillvverrWollff

P Brain had suspicion of alot of people, but chose to vote SilverWolf. Distancing? Could be. I am not sure though.

Also, I know I gave you a hard time before for not reading/writing, but you've really delivered today. Your post was really interesting and gave me alot to think about. Well done.

[bji]

I literally just posted the first of a series

I think you post may have been too long. Apparently if a post takes more than 10 seconds to read, no one wants to read it.

[bji]

I literally just posted the first of a series

I think you post may have been too long. Apparently if a post takes more than 10 seconds to read, no one wants to read it.

No, if he doesnt post it we can't read it. Don't project.

I'm confused?!? Didn't you see post 1239?!?? Or is this your wry way of saying that you think pacman was blowing hot air in that post or something?

[bji]

Honestly not reading all that.

Gimme a tl;dr both of you.
Why, in one small paragraph, is the other scum (I assume you're arguing the other is scum)

I am not convinced that VDA is scum. I'm just saying he's suspicious, because of this statement from post 764:

"Also, even if Titus is scum, she's right that Neighbouriser is not confirmed town, simply liklier town than scum."

This quote is in a post where Titus was not even mentioned, and rather than mentioning how he disagreed with the person he was responding to (pisskop) about the likelihood of Ari being a scum neighborizer (in fairness, pisskop had not made that statement in the post in question but in a prior post), he chooses to focus on Titus instead and put an unnecessary distancing "even if Titus is scum" clause in there. I find this suspicious.

[bji]

Can you elaborate why you think me and victor is scum bussing?

Posts 1074, 1081, 1082, post 1084. I could elaborate but to be frank I'm getting really tired of making points that no one listens to or cares about.

[bji]

Here's 30-35.

Before I start, I wanted to point out that it occurs to me that there is probably a significant reason why SW's very frustrated freak out involved yelling at bji and Prolapsed in particular. Not just because she pegged them as the two people who were attacking her the most. It seems like more than that. The way I see it the two options are that she either freaked out at both her scumbuddies for picking her out as the weak link or freaked out at one of her scumbuddies for doing that and tried to cover it with a second freakout on someone else. I really think it's impossible that neither of Prolapsed or bji is scum. Of course rn I think it's Prolapsed but I don't find it difficult to hold onto my previous scumread of bji even though he was so important in getting SW/Titus lynched. Just a thought. I'm gonna try to read these 5 pages without tunneling Prolapsed... TOO much.

I'm not sure you have provided much reasoning for why SW would rage against scumbuddies. And furthermore, I didn't see SW yell at ProlapsedBrain during her freak out at all. She yelled

about

him, but not at him. She yelled

at

me. She was pissed at me for tunneling on her so hard, although to this day I still don't understand why that warranted a freak out when should could pretty easily have just ignored me since no one was really taking me seriously. Even if that didn't work she could have

tried

it and seen if it worked before getting all freaked out. I just do not understand what she was thinking and hope she explains it in the end game if she doesn't hate my guts too much.

The only explanations that I have been able to come up with for why she freaked out are, like your explanations, centered on the concept of being frustrated that she was being accused of being scum partly because of actions of a scum buddy. VDA fits in here because it's his initial points about her bad vote on Lapsa that she didn't seem to be able to escape, not being able to win the argument with him, and then when it seemed it had blown over, I came in and hammered on that point hard again. Another possiblity is, like you said, Prolapsed Brain, who kept voting for her pointlessly, going right back to her every time (and often voting repeatedly just to irritate her apparently). But I don't have strong conviction on either of these.

nothing to say about 30...
751 is STUPID opportunistic. Prolapsed is eager to please the town PR. And never gave any explanation for why he unvoted SW in the first place.

As I noted in post 771, Prolapsed Brain had a strong tendency right from the get-go to vote SilverWolf. He voted her two or three times in a row (without unvoting anyone else, which is strange), then after moving his vote elsewhere, came back to a vote on her slot every time it seemed like there was any momentum at all behind a wagon on that slot. I don't fully understand the significance of this. One explanation would be that this was Prolapsed Brain's weird way of bussing that slot, and I guess this would fit in somewhat with SW's frustration, but I'm not super convinced on that.

Lapsa must've killed Count Dooku because of post 788 and subsequent pisskop attacks. Sensible but TJM was obviously the best pick. (Well Lapsa was the best pick for a vig kill but Lapsa being the vig fucks that up)

I agree that Lapsa killed Dooku, it looked like Lapsa had it in for Dooku at the end of Day 1 and it's also the simplest explanation for the Night 1 kills. I do not there's much info to glean from this fact though. The fact that Lapsa was killed is interesting. I have some thoughts on this but I'd prefer to save them for the end of Day 2 as there are some things I am watching and I want to gather more info.

800 rings bells/validates the possibility of bji scum. Pisskop points out why in the next post but does not mention that 800 is not only wrong but scummy. I am mentioning that. Sorry bji, my townread on you was pretty short lived.

Also notice that the first prolonged period of time where bji is not voting coincides with the period of time where Titus is turning out to be the only viable vote...

What's scummy about it? My impression was that Ari was on the hot seat and suddenly Titus arrived and took all of the spotlight away from him. And I didn't see how that could benefit a scum Titus at all, since you'd think she'd be happy to come in and not rock the boat and let a wagon against a town Ari proceed to a mislynch. The thing I was forgetting was that when Ari claimed, people backed off, and all of this had already happened before or coincident with Titus replacing in (can't remember exact timing and am too lazy to go back and read, but I'm positive that in any case, Ari got off the hotseat independently of Titus replacing in and bringing the focus onto herself with her interactions with pisskop).

I was struggling alot with the SW/Titus slot at the end of Day 1. First, I had some emotional response to thinking that I had driven a townie SW out of the game and I didn't want to be a further prick and actually lynch that slot, since if SW was town then I'd just be adding insult to injury. Second, I have the habit of, after convincing myself that someone is scum due to my reads on them, working to look for reasons that they aren't scum because I'm so afraid of being wrong and lynching a townie. So I vacillate alot between conviction that a scum read is scum and then conviction that they're not. I have a hard time retaining conviction in this game. However, I did decide to take a stand on SW's slot being town because I felt like believing that SW would replace out as scum was making an ethical judgement on her character that I didn't want to make. Turns out I was wrong. And the two conclusions I could draw are that either SW is really unethical or that it's not unethical for scum to replace out in situations like that. I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt and assuming it's the latter.

828... defense of Prolapsed at the same time as admitting that he has not displayed any intent to make reads. This inadvertently plays down how hard Prolapsed had been pushing SW for most of the game which is also relevant and scummy. Idk if scum bji would target and defend a scumbuddy playing terribly though... too speculative.

The post was sincere. I wasn't taking PB's play seriously at that point, what with the multiple redundant votes, the weird and sometimes gross comments, etc. I thought it would be better to lynch someone who I thought actually might be scum trying to masquerade as town via halfhearted scum hunting than lynching someone who really didn't seem to be playing the game. I still stand by that position.

the thing is bji seems always to work way too hard to be scum. but maybe he just has a lot of time irl. Still leaning way more towards Prolapsed as the scum in the duo.

Yeah I get this all the time, both in this game and other games I've been in. People always accuse me of trying too hard to be scum, and honestly it baffles me because I'd never try to look scummy. People just don't seem to understand what it looks like when someone with a minor amount of mafia experience tries hard to scum hunt. I go down alot of blind alleys, alleys that I am sure players with more experience would never even enter because they know that they're dead ends.

Also in terms of having alot of time irl, I think there are a few factors at play: 1) I only play one mafia game at a time so all of my attention is on this one. I think others play many games at once so their time is spread around between games. 2) I am a software developer and I spend all of my time every day sitting in front of a computer and it's easy and natural for me to refresh the mafiascum page every time I'm waiting for a compile to finish, or bored, or whatever. So in that sense I do have alot of time for the game because I spend 8+ hours every day sitting in front of a computer ready to read or comment on this thread at any time. That being said, it's having a bit of a detrimental effect on my work and I'm trying hard to reduce my attention given to this game during the work day (no success yet but I'll keep trying). 3) I believe that when I sign up to play a game of mafia, I have an obligation to contribute as much as and as best as I can. I wouldn't even join the game if I was going to half ass it.

overall there's not much to say on 30-35. Only like 5 people are posting for most of it. Gliffie's concern with the wagon reads as legitimate even though it's unfortunate as a defense of now-flipped scum.
Johnny is up in the air.

Hard to believe that in 10 pages of reading you couldn't come up with anything about anyone other than me and Prolapsed Brain though.

[bji]

Hard to believe that in 10 pages of reading you couldn't come up with anything about anyone other than me and Prolapsed Brain though.

PEdit: this is clearly hyperbole. I'm not claiming that you haven't come up with

anything

about anyone else. But it seems like the vast majority of your focus has been on me, and to a lesser extend, Prolapsed Brain.

[bji]

Most of the posts in that region of the game are from you, Prolapsed, pisskop, and Titus. And the two dead town. I've given At least some reason for town reads on several other players involved around there, and also suggested who alternative choices for scum but haven't seen much from those people (Johnny and West did not post much between 25 and 35, for instance) to supplement a proper read of them

Yeah, I guess this is what I get for posting so much ...

[bji]

I'm not sure you have provided much reasoning for why SW would rage against scumbuddies. And furthermore, I didn't see SW yell at ProlapsedBrain during her freak out at all. She yelled

about

him, but not at him. She yelled

at

me.

This is a good observation. I think the different nature of her approach to the two of you probably suggests only one of you is scum and again I'm still leaning towards whoever just replaced into Prolapsed's slot. SW's yelling about Prolapsed kind of sounds like "how come you guys can see through my ruse but not his?" Do you not see that subtext? I mean I guess I can't expect you to see subtext that hints at the possibility of your being scum regardless of your alignment but it seems clear to me that the nature of the her breakdown has to do with more than just being found out.

I do see what you're saying, and I agree that her breakdown probably has to do with more than just being found out, and that there's a good chance that part of her frustration came from how she was being treated by a scum partner. I already agreed with that in post 1270. Where I have trouble is in going from "kind of sounds like" circumstantial evidence, to forming a stronger opinion, I just feel like the evidence is not quite strong enough for me to come completely on board with it.

I have my own "kind of sounds like" vote against TMJ going on here, and I explain it in post 1152. I guess you haven't caught up to that yet, but when you do, I would like to hear if you find it as compelling as the evidence against Prolapsed Brain.

Also, PB has been replaced and my assumption is we're going to start getting some real content out of that slot, which will help. I seriously doubt we'll ever get any abundance of data to form reads from out of the TMJ slot. So let's see how things play out from here with PB's replacement.

[bji]

SORRY FOR THE NOTEWALL I HOPE THIS ISN'T TERRIBLE TO READ.

I was about to say, why remove Gliffie?

I like Gliffie. Gliffie replaced Aero, who I also liked.

You should take a look at his iso. It reveals some pretty sketch interactions with Titus. A bunch of weird, waffle-y "Titus is bad but so is this wagon on her" things and some attempts to encourage a wagon swing towards PB and Ari. I wanted to look more into this after people told me about what they usually expected from scumtitus, but that didn't happen, so bleh.

I looked at Aero's ISO again. I find nothing in it not to like. Reasonable arguments, reasonable suspicion, reasonable pushes. He pushed on pisskop because of pisskop's early weird comment about snow and mud, which was a little odd at that juncture given that he'd been so aggressive in his own defense and then suddenly got all appeas-y with that quote. So it was a reasonable thing to focus on. His subsequent questioning was solid. I just don't see anything not to like there.

Gliffie:

I don't detect anything horribly wrong with his postings but I do not like him as much as I liked Aero on second read. Also it was possibly weird that he encouraged me to make another shot at reads and said he'd be interested in them, and when those reads ended up being against SW he never said anything to me about them. He prompted me for reads and then clammed up when my reads ended up being against SW.

Also Gliffie does do some other weird-ish stuff, like saying he's interested in SilverWolf meta in post 503 but never pursuing that, also defending Titus post 847. Gliffie did seem awfully friendly to the SW/Titus slot on re-read.

West, what else were you thinking of regarding Gliffie's interaction with SW/Titus?

[bji]

the thing is bji seems always to work way too hard to be scum.

huh? p-edit: okay I guess bji knows what this means? This point is very lost on me.

Your guess is as good as mine. I had assumed he meant that he thinks that I try too hard to look scummy. Which obviously I would not do, I think he was being tongue in cheek and saying in a sarcastic way that I look scummy ... or something.

[bji]

PK, with Ep's recent postings, are you still thinking them scummy?
You never did follow up on that really.

Maybe. I want Gliffie.

West wanting Gliffie is nice, but mah feelz.

vote: Gliffie

West, whats your opinion of Johnny and TJM?

So I guess evilpacman18 has assuaged your suspicion and you're moving onto your second read?

[bji]

The only explanations that I have been able to come up with for why she freaked out are, like your explanations, centered on the concept of being frustrated that she was being accused of being scum partly because of actions of a scum buddy. VDA fits in here because it's his initial points about her bad vote on Lapsa that she didn't seem to be able to escape, not being able to win the argument with him, and then when it seemed it had blown over, I came in and hammered on that point hard again. Another possiblity is, like you said, Prolapsed Brain, who kept voting for her pointlessly, going right back to her every time (and often voting repeatedly just to irritate her apparently). But I don't have strong conviction on either of these.

Really, your trying to say that of all explanations, SW replaced out because I bussed her. Why didn't she ragequit a week earlier or so earlier when I started pressuring her? Your timeline makes no sense.[/quote]

Because having to defend you was one thing; but having to deal wth the argument again when someone else brought it up and came after her hard on it, after she thought she was already past it, was another entirely. Ever heard of "the straw that broke the camel's back"?

[bji]

Sure....

vote: Tjoe Min Ja

That's L-1 by the way, if my math is correct.

[bji]

If we don't know the makeup of this game, how will we know when it's LYLO? Both pisskop and Aristophanes have made statements that imply that we'll know when we're in lylo. How will we know?

[bji]

Are you that sure that Gliffie is scum, pisskop? As sure as you were that Titus was?

[bji]

Im curious why you keep asking that.

Because you were right about Titus.

[bji]

That's a completely wasted vote. Especially if you agree with lynching TMJ AND realize it's happening no matter what, you might as well finish it, give the mod a chance to replace Gliffie, and try again tomorrow after evaluating her replacement. Your vote on her slot shows that. Honestly if TMJ ends up being a town flip you're gonna start to look pretty bad.

Agree with the above in general, I think this is more evidence of West being noncommital and wishy-washy in this game. As I pointed out before, he hasn't really made any aggressive plays in my opinion and now that he has a hammer opportunity for a player that he agrees is the best lynch choice, he's declining to hammer.

One thing I don't understand though, is why does this look bad if TMJ flips town? Seems to me it would be bad for West if TMJ flips scum. Why would scum hesitate to hammer town?

Something needs to happen in this game. My vote on TMJ is based solely on two factors:

1. The quote I already pointed out where TMJ pays unusual attention to the wagon forming on SilverWolf.
2. His lurky style is not contributing anything and is only acting as a distraction, and I agree with others that this only becomes a worse distraction for town on subsequent days.

Any one of West, pisskop, Gliffie, or ChaosOmega could be hammering TMJ. You can't all be scum, so there must be reasonable town motivation for not hammering. What is it?

[bji]

Wow, you really mustn't be paying attention to have to ask questions like this.

Must not be. Because I can't think of any reason for any of those 4 to not be hammering TMJ. Let's get this overwith and get this sad game moving forward.

[bji]

2) Chaos has stated intent to hammer, and requested a claim. So effectively, he is hammering TMJ.

TMJ is not going to claim anything, he's probably not even going to post. There's no reason to wait.

3) Do I need to explain why it isn't suspicious that Pisskop and West haven't hammered or are we done here?

I'm not saying it's suspicious. I never said that. I just don't know why they aren't doing it. West gave a non-explanation. pisskop hasn't said anything that I remember.

Anyway, whatever. I guess I'll just wait to see what happens because there's nothing left to do but wait apparently.

[bji]

Oh well. So fast uh? I see it coming though.

I don't think there is anything alignment indicative about hammering you "so fast". The day was clearly stagnating. And it's already been explained why you were a good lynch choice for today. I'm really hoping you flip scum but even if you don't, at least the game will hopefully start progressing.

I don't know if I'll live through tonight so I'll you all something to think about in case I don't:

pisskop is either the towniest town or the scummiest scum. His claim was weird to me. Scum would make that claim as a sort of a win-win claim: if you're right that there are no investigative roles, then you get townfirmed. But if you're wrong, then someone either tunnels you or counter claims and then scum knows an investigative role. Not too bad of an outcome in either case for someone who believed they may really be close to lynch. However, this is predicated on pisskop really believing that he was close to lynch, and that early in day 1, I don't think anyone would really believe that. That being said, I always find premature claims like that suspicious. I also believed that pisskop may actually have been signalling something when he joked about being cop. I thought maybe he really was a cop and that joke claim served two purposes: one to see if Titus or anyone else would become very interested (which Titus did) to gauge if they are possible scum, and two to let those who can see through the deception know that he's a cop. I thought maybe he was a day cop who had investigated Titus because of how suddenly and certainly he tunneled on her as scum. Like, he was 100% sure in such a completely tunneling way that I thought he must be day cop and have investigated Titus and known that she was scum. I couldn't otherwise explain how he could be so sure. I didn't think of this until after Titus flipped, obv. Then in day 2 I was trying to probe pisskop to see if he was as "sure" about his read this day as previous, but he wasn't. So in the end I concluded that he's not actually a day cop. Like I said, pisskop is either really townie town, or really clever scum who has tricked us with a fake role claim. At this point, I'm pretty convinced that pisskop is town. But I wanted to put all this out because maybe fellow town can think of more that I haven't thought of. Oh yeah almost forgot, I thought that pisskop was the primary NK target night 1, I don't understand why he wasn't killed, that makes me a little suspicious too.

[bji]

Hey all. First, thank you texcat for replacing in. I was genuinely worried that the game would die without a replacement willing to come in. Very good of you, and much appreciated.

I agree that the Pea Brain slot is highly suspicious at this point. My reasoning is almost entirely based on SW's freak out. Now that we know that TMJ is scum, it explains alot. It would seem that SW was upset because she knew she didn't have much of a scum team to rely on. TMJ was obviously not going to be much help. It seems very likely that SW felt like the rest of her team wasn't helping or wasn't going to be helpful either, and got frustrated when she, as the only "good" player on the team, was the one the wagon was forming on. So who else would SW have perceived as an unhelpful or maybe even hostile scum partner, to the extent that she felt like she'd rather quit than play with that team?

Pea Brain looks like a likely candidate. His multi-voting on SW almost looks like a really mocking form of bussing. Maybe SW got really frustrated by that.

I can't leave VDA out either though. His early interaction with SW could be bussing and SW could have been frustrated that her scum partner had initiated the interactions that ended up making me most suspicious of her. Like, if they were bussing, I focused entirely on her and didn't even consider that her scum partner, who was equally involved in the bus, could be scum. I think this is a considerably worse theory than my case against the Pea Brain slot though.

I continue to not understand NK decisions by the scum team though. Why Johnny? Why not pisskop (who led the lynch against Titus and I believe has clearly demonstrated some scum sniffing skills and would seem dangerous to scum)? Why not me (who identified both SW and TMJ as scum)? Why not Ari (who, if he is town, has a valuable role that is worth NK'ing)?

[bji]

@Titus your reading is purely based on gut feeling. U only try to lynch the inactive to find way out.

vote titus

@aristophanes : what do you think about the latest bji vs silverwolf?

Can you elaborate why you think me and victor is scum bussing?

Is there a question/point in there?

[bji]

I think the last scum is in {Ari, Texcat, bji}. Discuss.

Are you still butt hurt over our argument?

[bji]

I think the last scum is in {Ari, Texcat, bji}. Discuss.

Are you still butt hurt over our argument?

Was I ever butt hurt over our argument?

I was just being coy. What I really wanted to ask was, is your inclusion of me in that list based on the fact that you and I had an argument? Or is there something else?

Also, is your reasoning for including texcat because you agree with what I said about about his interaction with SW?

Also, why Ari?

[bji]

Most notably

Victor has been on scum almost the

whole time

. Is he that good, or bussing the bus?

post 915. VDA jumped off of the Titus wagon and onto TMJ. Amazing that he'd jump from one scum to another.

This was weird:

I'll admit the wagon is quick, but now we're not lynching Ari and the deadline is approaching there is a degree of urgency so fast wagons will kinda happen.

Here he's talking about the TMJ wagon that he just tried to start up. But at this point Titus was at 4 votes (5 up until VDA left the Titus wagon to vote TMJ). I'd really like to understand why he jumped off of Titus and onto TMJ. Perhaps preferred a lynch of the useless TMJ scum partner to the useful Titus scum partner? If you're going to get town cred for lynching a scum buddy, I too would have preferred to lynch TMJ over Titus ...

[bji]

I didn't see what you said about him. You can requote it if you want to. I included him for the same reason as you.

It's like five or six posts up on the same page here. Please don't use the tired excuse that others have used that my post is too long so you didn't read it. We've had four or five days now with no posting at all, it can't be that hard to find some time to read what's happened since the thread unlocked ...

Anyway, I'll make it easy on you and just extract the part that is relevant here (and so as not to be accused of hiding anything, please be aware that a good bit of the rest of my post above talks about you):

I agree that the Pea Brain slot is highly suspicious at this point. My reasoning is almost entirely based on SW's freak out. Now that we know that TMJ is scum, it explains alot. It would seem that SW was upset because she knew she didn't have much of a scum team to rely on. TMJ was obviously not going to be much help. It seems very likely that SW felt like the rest of her team wasn't helping or wasn't going to be helpful either, and got frustrated when she, as the only "good" player on the team, was the one the wagon was forming on. So who else would SW have perceived as an unhelpful or maybe even hostile scum partner, to the extent that she felt like she'd rather quit than play with that team?

Pea Brain looks like a likely candidate. His multi-voting on SW almost looks like a really mocking form of bussing. Maybe SW got really frustrated by that.

[bji]

[quote="In post 1365, VictorDeAngelo"
That's all well and good, but what's any of that got to do with Texcat?[/quote]

Right you are. I got confused with all of the replacements. It's actually ChaosOmega that replaced Pea Brain. So it's ChaosOmega that my suspicions in this regards concern.

[bji]

Ari because we hope is role is eventually provable.

If Ari proves his neighborizer role, how certain will you be that he's town neighborizer and not scum neighborizer? I can't remember all of the discussion surrounding this but I thought the conclusion was that neighborizer could be scum, but more likely would be town. Does everyone agree with that?

[bji]

If he proves his role, I probably wouldn't worry about him until close to the end. If he doesn't prove it soon, he's definitely going to need more attention. How likely do you think it is that he targeted Johnny last night?

I think it's pretty improbable that he targeted Johnny, but obviously we should wait to hear what Ari says before passing judgement.

[bji]

I confirm that Aristophanes neighborized me last night. He hadn't posted in the neighborizer thread before just a few minutes ago and I wasn't sure if I was supposed to confirm him or not (a little disappointed here because I thought maybe we could do some super cool covert tag team scum hunting, but now, not so much), so I pretended I didn't know. But yeah, he neighborized me.

[bji]

bji, are you able to confirm that he tried to neighborize Lapsa night 1?

No, I cannot. All I see in the neighborizer thread is Cheetory6 announcing the thread with post 0, and then Ari lamenting that there is no one to talk to, until an announcement by Cheetory6 that I am in the neighborhood. There is no mention of Lapsa or any other neighborizer action, but I don't think that is proof of anything as that's exactly what I would expect had Ari really tried to neighborize a doomed Lapsa.

[bji]

Oh I don't know if it's relevant but Cheetory6 did make another post shortly after the Day 2 began. It doesn't have any real content and I don't understand exactly what it means. It's just a short little thing that looks maybe like a textual smiley. I am hesitant to quote anything because I think that's against the rules. I'm not entirely sure that I'm within the bounds of the rules as I describe the thread anyway and it's making me a little uncomfortable.

[bji]

West, why are you voting texcat? OMGUS or something more?

I'm going to make my vote here. I was hoping to hear from ChaosOmega first, just to see if it would make me any more or less confident, but whatever. Still plenty of time to hear his reasoning for why the Pea Brain slot isn't scum.

VOTE: ChaosOmega

[bji]

Bji, can I get a ChaosOmega case. Just the main points will do, I don't want a lengthy pbpa, just something I can read in a reasonable time frame.

Mostly the case is based on SW/PB interactions. The fact that PB chose to multiple-vote SW straight out of the gate, and the fact that PB always returned to a vote on SW with little or no justification any time there was a wagon in her direction is suspicious to me. I have a working theory that SW replaced out because she felt little or no support from either scum partner. TMJ flipping scum makes half this case. The question then becomes who else would fit the bill as an unsupportive scum partner. PB seems like a really good choice. I can 100% see PB having some kind of weird sense of humor where he thought that it was cool to bus a partner by multi voting them like that. It fits with PB's other weird behavior.

A much lesser, and kind of weak I admit, reason is the fact that ChaosOmega hammered TMJ, and also the way that it felt like ChaosOmega gave TMJ too much time to try to weasel out of the wagon. In my very limited experience of 2 prior games, scum hammered 4 out of 5 times. So I view the hammer vote with some built in suspicion. And in all cases, the vote looked similar, with a "I'll announce my intention to hammer and then give it some time so that everyone knows that I'm not a scum eager to complete the lynch" period at the end right before the hammer. Note that Pea Brain was the hammer of Titus, and ChaosOmega was the hammer of TMJ. Both hammers came from the same slot. Suspicious.

Hope that wasn't too long.

Can you elaborate why you think me and victor is scum bussing?

Posts 1074, 1081, 1082, post 1084. I could elaborate but to be frank I'm getting really tired of making points that no one listens to or cares about.

You need to elaborate, because simple quoting posts with where we vote each other is a waste of time.

When I read posts 1074 and 1081, I got a strong feeling like this is exactly the kind of opening I would expect to see from two scum who had discussed the best way to change TMJ's standing within the game. As if the Night 1 discussion had been something like:

VDA: Hey TMJ, you're not playing aggressively enough, you're going to get lynched as a lurker who does weird stuff
TMJ: What should I do?
VDA: Let's play off of the interaction we had at the end of Day 1. You come after me for that exchange, and we'll get a little bus going. I'll even explain my vote by accusing your scumbuddy of telling you to be more aggressive, which will be true because I did! No one will guess that I'm telling the truth! har har!

Well that's what I read into that exchange. The fact that you, VDA, would go directly after TMJ of all people at the beginning of Day 2, when he was one of the least interesting participants in Day 1, all because of a weird interaction at the end of Day 1 that looked a lot like a set-up for further interaction, well the whole thing just smelled bad.

Now I also found it weird that in post 1082 you felt a need to further clarify a position to TMJ like that. When someone makes a follow on post like that it's clear that they've been thinking about whether or not their last post left the impression that they intended it to leave. Why so worried about how TMJ is going to understand your position? I think it's unlikely that you cared whether or not TMJ really understood your actions. That post 1082 was for the benefit of everyone else. Why would it be so worth explaining your position to that degree to everyone else? Nervous perhaps that a not-well-explained bus on TMJ would be suspicious?

Then post 1084 is just admitting that the justification for your vote is basically OMGUS. "after that vote at the start of the day" (on me) "I'm happy to keep pressure on him". That reads like justifying a bus to me.

Most of my concerns about you are based on SW interaction, where you could be the other choice for "scum buddy who frustrated SW". But I think Pea Brain is a much better choice for that. Also I believe that your assertion that there was something scummy about how I handled our back-and-forth walls is disingenous; I think it's trumped-up as a form of counterattack. That's just how I see it knowing that my actions were not scummy.

[bji]

I don't see what being interesting has to do with anything. He was fairly obviously scum. When you say "The fact that you, VDA, would go directly after TMJ of all people at the beginning of Day 2," who exactly think I should be going after?

I don't think anyone except you thought that TMJ was such obvious scum. You gave some evidence against TMJ in post 915 but as far as I am concerned only (c) is even remotely convincing. The rest of it is all basically just statements about why TMJ would be a good policy lynch, not reasons for why he'd be scum.

Can you explain why, if TMJ was such obvious scum, you weren't trying that hard to convince anyone else? Let's just take at what your feelings about TMJ were:

@lapsa : when are you going to hammer?

Wow, I keep forgetting your in this game.

Any chance of some content before the day ends?

For instance, what are your thoughs on the Ari wagon and the people on it?

So you kept forgetting that obvious scum was in the game?

A while later you chose to focus on the fact that TMJ was continuing to not post as a reason for voting him. Total policy lynch as far as I can tell:

Its work hour here. Gonna reply in a few hours.

Your few hours have come and passed.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TMJ

Then comes post 915 (which I wil not quote here in the interests of brevity, please follow the link earlier in this sentence to read it), with reasons not so strong that I would call TMJ "obvious" scum.

A day later you're willing to let go of "obvious" scum to go after Titus:

unvote

VOTE: Titus

I'm around to switch to P.Brain if need be until the deadline.

No mention of TMJ.

Next interaction is the one in which you ask TMJ whether or not he'd switch to Pea Brain.

That's it until Day 2 when suddenly you're so convinced of TMJ's guilt that you're on his wagon immediately and never leave it.

It's not clear to me exactly when TMJ went from "forgettable" to "obvious scum". I don't see a progression in this read, it goes straight from "forgettable" to "scum because he isn't posting/voting", to "obvious scum".

[bji]

It's not clear to me exactly when TMJ went from "forgettable" to "obvious scum". I don't see a progression in this read, it goes straight from "forgettable" to "scum because he isn't posting/voting", to "obvious scum".

EBWOP: There is a progression here, but it's not very convincing, is what I meant to say. I just don't feel like step 2 (policy lynch vote) is a good bridge between step 1 ("forgettable") and step 3 ("obvious scum").

[bji]

I have a working theory that SW replaced out because she felt little or no support from either scum partner. TMJ flipping scum makes half this case. The question then becomes who else would fit the bill as an unsupportive scum partner. PB seems like a really good choice. I can 100% see PB having some kind of weird sense of humor where he thought that it was cool to bus a partner by multi voting them like that. It fits with PB's other weird behavior.

It's a theory, one that I'm not sure holds a lot of weight, and I certainly would let guide a lynch.

Did you mistype that? I don't understand why you would say that the theory doesn't hold alot of weight but that you'd let it guide a lynch. Can you clarify?

[bji]

I don't see what being interesting has to do with anything. He was fairly obviously scum. When you say "The fact that you, VDA, would go directly after TMJ of all people at the beginning of Day 2," who exactly think I should be going after?

You quoted my question but you didn't answer it.

Sorry. I was more interested in your assertion that TMJ was an "obvious" scum. However, to answer your question: there were alot of juicy targets at the beginning of Day 2 (Ari's neighborizer claim had been unverified, Pea Brain and Gliffie were topics of general interest, etc).

Also, regarding your recent vote on me, why do you get so freaked out and go all OMGUS all the time? I think my points are reasonable. There is little to no evidence that one could ever put out in this game that is not to some degree a matter of interpretation, and there are always reasonable doubts about everything. Just because I found some of your actions suspicious, and then you specifically ask me to give you details, and then I give you all the details I can think of ... that's your reason for voting me? Can you explain how your vote is not the text book definition of OMGUS?

[bji]

Egh. I was kinda thinking that this was one of those "newb-bji trying to back-up a scumread and in the process seeing every action that someone made in a scummy light" things again, but this is actually super gross. As is his ignoring of most of 1417.

Not sure what you'd have me do. I made my points, he made his counter points. Any response I make is likely to just be me reiterating my points and him reiterating his counter points. We've been through this before, and no one liked it.

OK so people don't see anything in my case against VDA. That's fine; it's not an airtight case, it's suspicion based upon hunches. I'm not voting VDA, but I'm not backing down when he asks me why I found him suspicious. I'm not going to pretend like I don't have any suspicions. I laid my reasons out numerous times already. Take them for what they're worth (which in the opinion of texcat and West, is not much, apparently).

All I hear though is people telling me who is innocent. So texcat and West, if it's not VDA or Pea Brain, who is it? Who should we be voting for?

Also, Victor, if the day 1 and day 2 scum were so obvious, can you say who the obvious day 3 scum is?

[bji]

I'm not voting VDA, but I'm not backing down when he asks me why I found him suspicious.

But apparently backing down once he pokes some pretty significant holes in your case? Also, are we really already going to the past tense there

His holes are a matter of opinion/conjecture, as is my case against him. I think there's enough there for reasonable suspicion even if you or he does not. If you really, really want me to, I'll do a point by point response to his post 1417 if you think the argument is really worthwhile.

In terms of the tense, that's a pretty nitpicky thing to focus on. I still find him suspicious, if you're looking for clarification of my statement.

@texcat, I'll look at West's ISO, but not tonight, maybe tomorrow.

[bji]

Also, Victor, if the day 1 and day 2 scum were so obvious, can you say who the obvious day 3 scum is?

Not with any degree of certainty I'm afraid (and I don't know if I ever went as far as to say that SW/Titus was obvscum).

Correct. Your ISO confirms it. I misremembered.

I call a truce. I thought my case against you had merit but no one else does and I'm tired of arguing it. You can continue to go after me if you want, even lynch me if you can, but I'm going to look elsewhere. I'll start with a look back at the wonderful world of West tomorrow sometime. I will also look at Gliffie and Pacman since they seem to have some interest. At this point I trust pisskop's judgement and will probably be willing to join him on any wagon he feels strongly about.

I also feel like Ari, now that he's neighborizer confirmed, has lost any sense of urgency he may ever had about this game.

[bji]

Also with regards to your (VDA's) massclaim suggestion, I'd be willing to do it. I am not entirely certain what it accomplishes since I've never been a part of such a thing, but if everyone else thinks it's a good idea, I'll go along.

[bji]

V/LA until Monday

A voice from the grave!!! Spooky!

[bji]

I've been prodded. I spent some time looking at West's ISO and honestly I'm not convinced there is scumminess there. It's a little weird that 75% of his content is directed at me or in response to me, but I think that a) I posted the most and the most directly targeted at him, b) I rub him the wrong way, and c) West's style doesn't seem very active, more passive. He likes to respond to and point holes in other people's work but doesn't do deep dives himself, from what I read. All in all, I can't say that I found anything particularly damning.

That's all for now. I'm sure you'll all enjoy some respite from my voluminous posting, and you shall have it.

[bji]

West! You wrote a wall! THAT IS AWESOME! Why don't you put this much energy into any part of the game that doesn't involve defending yourself?

Anyway, it's really late and I only skimmed your wall. I intend to read it line by wonderful line tomorrow. But the vibes I get are that West is either exasperated town, or trapped scum. I lean towards exasperated town. But don't quote me on that, I still have to read carefully. Goodnight!

[bji]

A thought: West is third party. He doesn't care about finding scum, just about making sure that he lives. What kind of role does that? I don't even know. Someone who knows the roles better might fill in the blanks.

[bji]

theres no 3p. But that was wonderful. Brought a tear to my eye. Like, the best results I could ask for.

vote: Texcat

I truly don't understand. Are you making fun of me? If so, please explain better, because I think I am not properly ridiculed if I don't even understand how I'm being ridiculed.

[bji]

FWIW; West is currently in my "I do lynch want to lynch this player today" pile. I advise everyone on the West to either get off, or tell me why I'm wrong.

You are the master of typos that say the opposite of what you mean. I think you meant "I do NOT want to lynch this player today" - right?

[bji]

Gliffieslot case, if some of you are interested in refocusing and/or playing the game.

TJM

- Oh dear, not much happened here, did it? Bad bji vote and some not very interesting questions. I eagerly await future contributions.

SilverWolf

- Seems fine.

Other people were given analysis during his initial post. These two weren't.

This implication is not convincing. The likelihood that Gliffie would specifically not mention his two scum buddies and then put them in a separate post later seems unnecessarily careless. Hard to believe that a scum even trying to appear unbiased would do anything like that.

Scum

Aristophanes

TMJ

TMJ? Just gut I presume?

Only interested in TMJ read out of Dooku's list.

Could be explained by the fact that at the time TMJ was noted for not participating, and anyone would have been justified in finding it odd that TMJ was listed as a top scum read there.

What the fuck is going on. Correct me if I'm wrong: Titus is a known sharp player, completely and utterlty missunderstands pisskop, this is apparently scum slip of the century, suddenly L-1? This seems so dumb on both ends. Titus, you are paying attention to the game right? Your posts feel so unfocused. I really don't like this wagon either. It's so incredibly rushed. Why are VDA, P Brain and Lapsa on it? Is just just #YOLOSWAGWAGON or did I miss your actual reasons? Ari's jump onto the wagon feels really opportunitsic too. Oh, and bji is back. Man...

Defense/not defense of titus where he also attacks the Titus wagon.

This is more substantial than your other two points. But still, one could just take Gliffie at face value here. Not understanding why Titus was being so dense but also not understanding why Titus being dense equates to a quickwagon.

I don't think it's that unlikely. Cheetory does not originate from this site and this is the first game he's hosting here. Do you think the list mod would not have approved it?

Still pushing for Ari lynch.

Are you sure that Ari is town?

I doubt you will get anything out of Pea Brain anyways. Someone should just shoot that guy before we waste a lynch on him. I'm all for him giving reads though, if he can accomplish such a feat.

The next day:

VOTE: Prolapsed Brain because I think there's a bigger chance he'll flip scum. I'll hammer Titus before the deadline to avoid a no lynch though. Gj to scum for making me chose between two players who aren't my top scumread. (Someone please vote Ari with me).

IDK, I'm starting to be convinced ... reading more into post 873, the quote "I'd rather have you vote Ari, but that's not gonna happen, is it?" just highlights how Gliffie was always aggressive in proposing lynches of non-scum players, but cautious in conceding that he'd be "willing to" vote for players that we now know were scum.

About my L-2 vote: You guys seriously need to put more thought into that, because there was ZERO motivation for scumWest to vote for Titus at that point in any way possible. Why? Well, on D1 if you were going to bus someone, why wouldn't you bus TMJ? Why would you bus Titus who could potentially be of great benefit to you?

Well I do have to disagree here. Why bus TMJ, who is unlikely to even play along in a meaningful way? What's the point of a bussing vote that doesn't gather much convincing interaction? A bus doesn't look like much when it's on a lurker. Much better is a point/counterpoint argument with a sharp scum partner who can make it look convincing.

Silverwolf/bji: eh. this isn't really fun to read. I need a reader's digest version of 632. bji's cluelessness and Silverwolf's exaggeration seem real. That tells me little about alignment.

At face value, I super don't feel comfortable following VDA, PBrain, and bji into this wagon, so we should kill Ari instead.

I agree that SW looked genuine but the fact that she replaced means to me that the exasperation was alignment-neutral

This is the kind of soft defense that I would expect from a scum buddy.

I'm not sure I buy the "soft defense" argument at all. Maybe you perceive it as such but with no evidence other than your feeling that this looks like soft defense, it's just not convincing to me.

What happened was that Texcat searched through my ISO, trying to find dirt on me so that she could hastily put together a case and get me mislynched, forgot to check for context, and made a scummy error which she hasn't acknowledged. And she hasn't acknowledged it because she is not trying to find scum.

Well I would expect that a scum willing to do that much leg work would be willing to think of a way to respond to your subsequent accusation, wouldn't you?

Also, are you "trying to find scum" in this game? I really haven't seen you put alot of effort in unless it's to defend yourself, and your strongest scum read all game is on someone mostly just because they built a case against you.

Should we talk about why Johnny is dead?

I actually had him very close to the top of the scum list during my read thru. He seems an odd choice for NK.

then:

The Johnny kill was odd, but perhaps the scum was trying to eliminate more PRs.

Texcat came straight out of the gates pushing for a West lynch. Johnny would have been maybe the hardest person to get to support a West lynch. Therefore, Johnny needed to go.

This evidence I find much more convincing. texcat first acting like there was no obvious reason that Johnny would be the NK, but then later trying to use the Johnny lynch as evidence against you, is really weird. It does feel opportunistic, and not in a good (town) way.

There's another thing about Gliffie I don't like, and I already pointed it out a while ago: Gliffie prompted me to have another go at making reads back when I was lamenting not having any idea what to do, and acted like he'd be interested in the results, and when I came back with SW as the guilty party in those reads, he never said a word about them. That was just a little odd given that SW flipped scum.

Finally, I feel like texcat has been trying to buddy me ever since joining back. Defending me against pacman a little in post 1465, asking me specifically to look at West's ISO, as if my opinion is worth something, asking me to make reads, just overall being really friendly to me and valuing my opinion and expressing that. I hate to have to use someone being nice to me as evidence against them, but I couldn't help having noticed it.

textcat, I like you as a player and you seem like a really nice person and I hate to have to do this, but please understand it's just a game decision and nothing personal, and Gliffie is mostly to blame.

UNVOTE: ChaosOmega
VOTE: texcat

That's L-1.

As for West, you're kind of null for me after all that. I don't like how you have these powers of observation but you only really use them in self defense. But I do think you come out better in the West-texcat exchange.

[bji]

Ugh. Really? There is absolutely no way I would have killed Johnny if I were scum. No effing way! It would be a totally boneheaded move from anyone except Johnny.

Can you restate this? I just want to make sure this is what you meant to say.

[bji]

Are you pulling my leg?

The "Ugh. Really?" was in response to you. I can't understand why you thought that the Johnny part of West's argument held any water at all.

The thing is, here you are saying that you can't understand why

any

scum would have NK'd Johnny. You said:

"It would be a totally boneheaded move from anyone except Johnny."

(the fact that you're saying that only Johnny would have made sense as a killer of Johnny doesn't make any sense to me at all, but you've confirmed this is what you meant)

But earlier you tried to attribute Johnny's NK to a scum West wanting to kill the person most likely to figure him (West) out.

So which is it? Do you really think no scum would have killed Johnny? Or do you really think scum West killed Johnny?

Where was Johnny on your list? Was he a town read for you? He certainly was not for me.

Johnny was kind of null for me. I don't think I ever voted for him, or maybe I did just briefly to try to apply pressure to him when I felt like he wasn't doing much. But really I never had great suspicion of him. I thought his style seemed a little smooth but that was not much of reason to be suspicious given the more interesting stuff other people were doing.

[bji]

And, yes, I asked the question about Johnny. I was hoping that someone would come to the same conclusion that I did if they thought about it. If say, Pisskop had thought about it and come to the conclusion that only West had a motive for killing Johnny it would have carried more weight and Johnny would have had a harder time turning it around to be an accusation on me.

You are

REALLY

confusing me. How could Johnny have "turned it around to be an accusation" on you from the grave?

[bji]

And town manages to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory ...

[bji]

I can't believe that all three wagons d1 were scum, and we still lost the game.

Don't argue with pisskop. That guy's always right - in his own head.

[bji]

nah, we both fell victim to the same disease this game

the disease of "analyzing players that were actually playing the game instead of lurkerscum."

From where I was sitting I didn't see much analysis. No offense. The last few days were like waiting to see who cared less about the outcome of the game.

OK I think I've been bitter enough now. As to the positives, there were parts of this game that were alot of fun to play. I think I learned even more than I had expected to coming in. Yeah some of my early stuff was so dumb, like being concerned about players changing their avatars (but honestly, in two games I had never seen it, I thought it was some kind of weird signal). I learned that players replacing out from frustration is not frowned upon. I learned that there are a wider variety of playstyles than I had been familiar with before and that playstyle is a very poor indicator of alignment.

[bji]

If anyone wants feedback on your performance in this game, let me know. More than willing to give some.

Oh sure. I don't mind feedback, and I know that it won't be pretty, please be frank, I can take it!

[bji]

Big thanks to Titus, texcat, ChaosOmega and Aristophanes for replacing!

Agreed with that. Every single one of those players was a great contributor to the game.

How about that weird bussing of Prolapsed Brain on SilverWolf? That was just crazy.

[bji]

Also I've said it before, but Cheetory's death stories were just incredibly awesome. Way to go above and beyond by adding flavor/fun to the game.

[bji]

@Mod:

I'm OK with the neighborizer thread being publicized.

[bji]

Thanks bji! Hope everyone enjoyed the game despite things becoming a long slog by midgame.
Would you prefer feedback via PM or here?

Whichever you would prefer. I don't mind airing my dirty laundry, I know I suck at many aspects of this game.

[bji]

Also I really almost quit the site forever when I got that feedback from Ari after SW's freakout. If I hadn't forgotten to change my email address to something random (so as not to be able to recover the password that I had changed to something random) that would have been it for me. Or if Cheetory had managed to find a replacement while I was out. But, I had a change of heart after a day or two and decided just to give it one more go. This game can be really frustrating but it can be really fun too.

I think that VDA was really good and I am sorry that I tussled with him. I think that was very detrimental to the game because I should have spent my time trying to be more convincing/convinced on my PB/SW connection theory, and instead, got sidetracked trying to out-logic VDA, which is basically impossible, because I think he is better at arguing than I am.

[bji]

@pisskop, I think you did a great job of pinning down Titus. I was so ready to just give SW a 100% unbendable town read after that freakout episode convinced me that no scum would really replace out like that (yeah I was wrong, a very important lesson). I am not sure that Titus lynch would have happened if you hadn't been so sure. Still don't understand how you were so sure, but props to you.

I was really convinced you were some kind of cop after that, which is why I kept asking you how sure you were of your remaining reads. Kind of a weak way to hint to you that I suspected your cop-ness. If you had responded in a way that indicated that you were a cop I would have 100% sheeped you for the rest of the game.

[bji]

@pisskop, I think you did a great job of pinning down Titus. I was so ready to just give SW a 100% unbendable town read after that freakout episode convinced me that no scum would really replace out like that (yeah I was wrong, a very important lesson). I am not sure that Titus lynch would have happened if you hadn't been so sure. Still don't understand how you were so sure, but props to you.

I was really convinced you were some kind of cop after that, which is why I kept asking you how sure you were of your remaining reads. Kind of a weak way to hint to you that I suspected your cop-ness. If you had responded in a way that indicated that you were a cop I would have 100% sheeped you for the rest of the game.

This was a hard spot. Nothing really got going that wasn't on a buddy. So I had to bus. *shrug* Not much that can be done.

Oh there's no doubt about it, you replaced into an extremely difficult situation. You're not going to like this, but I don't understand how SW thought it was OK to replace out there. Is there any honor in running from battle? All she was going to do was to put someone who replaced her into an even worse situation that she was in. I don't get how that's OK.

Oh man. Fakeclaiming informed townie as a cop would be fucking brilliant.

I thought it would have been a good tactic, and I thought that it was one good reason to early claim like he did.

[bji]

Oh there's no doubt about it, you replaced into an extremely difficult situation. You're not going to like this, but I don't understand how SW thought it was OK to replace out there. Is there any honor in running from battle? All she was going to do was to put someone who replaced her into an even worse situation that she was in. I don't get how that's OK.

You don't have a fucking clue why I replaced out. You just ran your mouth off about something you know nothing about and questioned my integrity yet again and continue to make false assumptions.

You can just fuck right off with your judgemental BS.

Well I don't mind you explaining it if you like.

[bji]

Oh there's no doubt about it, you replaced into an extremely difficult situation. You're not going to like this, but I don't understand how SW thought it was OK to replace out there. Is there any honor in running from battle? All she was going to do was to put someone who replaced her into an even worse situation that she was in. I don't get how that's OK.

You don't have a fucking clue why I replaced out. You just ran your mouth off about something you know nothing about and questioned my integrity yet again and continue to make false assumptions.

You can just fuck right off with your judgemental BS.

Well I don't mind you explaining it if you like.

OK, I see you did a few posts above.

Nobody will ever convince me that there are topics that are too taboo to talk about, though.

[bji]

@West, Sure.
If anyone has any thoughts on the setup I wouldn't mind some feedback on that as well.

Well, my first thought is that I don't understand why town was given so many PRs and scum none. Doesn't that weigh things in favor of town?

It's unfortunate that the jailer was killed so early, and that the neighborhood never amounted to much. I think there was more potential in the setup than was fully realized, because of the way the game played out.

[bji]

Honestly, if TMJ and PB were my scummates D1, I think would've said "fuck this" and either replaced out or bussed them to the end of the world as well.

Yeah, I wouldn't have done that. I would have played my best regardless. Maybe I take this game too seriously.

[bji]

lol hey I do say "feel free to" a lot, don't i

speaking of this

apparently, the person who took "west" on this site made 5 posts in 2004 and hasn't been active since. yayyyyyyy

What's the significance of "West"?

[bji]

@Mod:

Link to the scum thread?

[bji]

BJI, I'm sorry I almost drove you away but am glad you returned and hooe to play woth you more. You have a lot of potential man!

All is forgiven. I would like to play with you again too, you have a good attitude. I would like to see more activity from you, is all.

[bji]

Dooku was not a bad vig. He was my townbeard at the start. So was bji. My flip after really set bji straight though.

I would have to say Johnny town mvp though.


@Gliffe, what do you mean?

I find this really odd. IIRC bji was the only player with all three scum in his scumreads and I don't remember Johnny doing much this game at all.

Perhaps I did, but I think that I produced too much noise and my message was easily lost. And I really made a bad choice to try to choose between texcat and West at the end of Day 3. Lesson learned.

It was your arguments with SW at the beginning that tipped me off to her alignment. I just thought it was weird that someone who seemed so rational when dealing with everything else couldn't extricate herself from her argument with you. It felt like she was squirming. Perhaps she really wasn't and I just got lucky. But the result was her replace out, and then I dropped the ball because after "soul searching" I just had to conclude that scum SW wouldn't do that. Luckily pisskop picked up the ball and drove Titus to the lynch. After that, you correctly identified TMJ and I saw the same when I reviewed his interaction with SW. So scum 1 and 2 were "easy". Unfortunately, after that things kind of fell apart with everyone having their own reason to not suspect PB, and to be frank, in the last Day or two (or three) I didn't really think people were putting much effort into trying to figure the game out. No offense.

[bji]

I'm also fine with releasing the mafia PT.

For all the bitching and moaning about my slot, I helped win the game, yes? I kinda know what I'm doing, you know.

Well, if you're going to self-congratulate, I'm going to have to disagree. Your play almost cost your team the game. You contributed heavily to SW's freak out, which led to her successor's lynch, and your teammate's lynch also. Titus & Chaos played just well enough to salvage the game for your team. I personally had your slot as one of my only two scum reads going into the end, but I got NK'd. JohnnyFarrar also called your slot and unfortunately he got NK'd too. Pisskop came tantalizingly close to calling your slot (see his last post in the neighborhood) but it was not to be.

It's easy to say we should have caught your slot in hind sight I know, but I don't think it's too hard to conclude that the game was won despite your play, not because of your play.

[bji]

Feedback is gonna be delayed because of exams and other RL shit. Sorry folks.

If we could just get that scum thread link that would tide me over. Thanks and good luck on your exams!

[bji]

Thank you Cheetory!

[bji]

Curious on the NK logics

I wanted to get bji out of the way as soon as possible, but I thought my slot would get a lot of heat if that was my first NK. Johnny was read as town by most people, and NK analysis wouldn't be able to pin that on me. Also, I was PR hunting; I thought if there were any left, Johnny had a decent chance of being one. bji was on the texcat lynch the next day and didn't push me as hard, so that was my window to kill him without drawing suspicion. Ari was townreading pisskop very hard, and I wanted to keep pisskop around because of his read on me. And the last kill, I was more worried about a pisskop-VDA-me lylo blowing up in my face than pisskop-West-me.

Intriguing!
I should put more thought into nightkills as scum apparently.
And you're right, I probably never would have voted PK and West being in lylo was a great idea.

You played a smart game!

100% agreed on that.