Newbie 1444 ~ Game Ovah ~ Mafia Win

[Thor665]

/Forsooth

[Thor665]

tl:dr - this entire commentary block is all about introducing myself as the IC, blathering about my duties, and offering a basic idea of some of the strategy of the RVS. If this interests you, please read on (especially if this is your first time playing here) if not, feel free to skip.

Spoiler: IC Intro

===========================================================================================

Greetings,

I am Thor665 and I am the Inexperienced Challenged (IC) player of this group. What this means is first and foremost - I am here to play this game with you in a way that will show you what it is like to play on Mafiascum.net. I am here to win and should be treated as such.

My goals and the rules governing my actions are covered in this handy article: Being a good IC
That article is part of our amazing MafiaWiki System. I *highly* recommend this system as a good way to get your feet wet and to find out what a lot of the common abbreviations mean. There is a lot of play strategy discussed in there too. A lot of players consider that advice almost all outdated now. I don't recommend trying to run verbatim with anything there, but a lot of the basic advice is very good to at least be aware of as it can help you avoid blatant pitfalls as you become familiar with the game play here.

Now, as an IC I am here as a resource for you to ask questions of concerning game theory. I WILL NOT lie about game theory answers and will answer them to the best of my ability. I will also offer you the following quick pieces of advice;

1. Don't self vote. (there are really no points during a Newbie setup where this is a good idea, please avoid it however logical you may think it is)
2. This site frowns on lying if you are a vanilla town role. I strongly advise against lying if you have this role as usually it will only hurt town in the end.
3. It's a game - have fun.

We are now starting what is known as the RVS (random voting stage). We are in a low information period because scum already know who they are, and even have a rough idea of what power roles may or may not be in the game. It is now town's job to root them out. Because the start of the game leaves us with no information to start with generally the way to start is to begin voting and questioning other people to see if you can catch them doing something scummy (scummy actions being acts that a scum player is more likely to do then a town player).

Vote: DaughterofLuthien

It's too much the opposite of a sausage party in here, and my old school MS sensibilities are scared of change.

[Thor665]

The mod said that the game would start once 7 players confirmed.
7 have now confirmed - therefore the game has started.
Want to get involved?

[Thor665]

@Sakura - If the mod wanted it to start with an official announcement he should have said so.

I approve of the sheep.

@Daughter - why does me voting you make me more likely to be scum in your eyes? Also, what makes me different from Sakura, who also voted you - so clearly something is different in your opinion between our votes, what is it?

[Thor665]

I'm okay with lynching Burn now also.
Hopefully everyone else is a shining ray of ton energy. my sexy beard and manly voice can only take us so far.

[Thor665]

Also, if I was trying really hard to prove my innocence this early in the game, wouldn't that be more of an indicator that I was scum than otherwise?

Would it?
Also, if you were scum, would you intentionally behave this way because *you* think it would make you look less like scum?

[Thor665]

Also, neither Thor nor Sakura have answered my questions as to why they both decided to vote for me.

What reason do you think I had?

Okay with lynching someone a page and a half into the game. Thats careless and jumping the gun early in the game especially when you didnt give a reason as to why you are okay with it.

How is it "careless" of me to have people I'm willing to lynch.
Are you saying you currently have no one you'd be willing to lynch? If so, what are you doing even voting?
Also, you're sort of passive aggressive asking me my reasons without actually just asking me my reasons. That's weird.

Which is why I have my first town read of the game. I think you just didnt see it or didnt read the post which is Smurf that i do all the time. How you reacted is what I was really looking after.

Why does that make her a town read? Do scum's computers not mess up?

[Thor665]

Can't help but notice that you've been asking a lot of questions but not giving very many answers.

With all due respect - the questions I've been asked are...only one, and it was kind of silly, and I asked the return question to you to try to understand where you were even coming from.

I'd be willing to believe that your vote on me was completely random, but I'm a little puzzled as to why you won't just come out and say that.

Why should I need to? At the time I voted I was literally the first vote and the reason I offered was because 'you are a girl'
Do I need to now clarify that this vote had no ulterior motives to it?
I *do* think you need to defend basically suggesting I did - I'm curious where you got that thought.

Also, I'd like to hear some of you reasoning behind thinking Burn is lynchable as well.

He has indicated scumtells without moving his random vote.
If he is serious about those scumtells, then he has every reason to move his vote.
If he is not, then I wonder why he's slinging mud without being willing to back it up.
Either way i am pretty happy with the idea of voting him.

What's your read on him and his odd defense of your slot?

[Thor665]

I'm saying that I dont have enough information yet on page 2 to be "okay" with lynching anybody.

That doesn't make it careless - that makes it a different speed that we decide upon a lynch...and, functionally, with your vote in play on someone you don't even think is scum that appears to make you more careless because at least I'm standing behind my vote. Am I missing something here?

When I lynch someone Im trying to hit scum, not cross my fingers and take a shot in the dark and hope I hit a bullseye. That is careless to me. I at least try to have an educated guess and have the opportunity to at least convince myself someone is scum before I lynch them.

So, you feel by me saying I'd be okay lynching you that I have locked myself into a belief system that i cannot change and you are taking issue with that?

Why am I voting? The same reason you voted someone. To get the ball rolling during the RVS. I just so happened to like Blonde's username and picked him.

But if Blonde isn't scum, aren't you now locked in with no ability to change your opinion - that's careless, yeah?

It was because of her reaction. She didn't force the issue and admitted to making a mistake and didnt get overly defensive. It just something that she did that in my mind shifts the odds of her being town even if it is a small amout like only 2%.

So...are you saying this is an incredibly weak town read you just voiced?
I mean, you're the one who announced it as a town read, all I'm trying to do is understand your logic - I currently understand your answer to be 'She seemed calm in addressing a non-aggressive attack while under minimal pressure, I take that level of calmness as some percent likely to be more common with town than scum'
Do I have that right?
And if so - how strong of a read is it, and should I even bother paying attention? And if it is so small, why did you feel the need to announce it?

[Thor665]

I left my vote on him to see what his reaction was going to be when he does finally come to the thread. Thats what I was waiting on. I vote for him for the same reason you voted DoL. It was the RVS and you wanted to get the ball rolling and see what her reaction was going to be.

Okay, and with that as a mental concept (and add in your later awareness that you state that I am not obligated to never change my mind *and* stated awareness that if you state that your read is just for pressure than it losses all purpose)

With all of that in your mind.

Explain to me again your issue with me saying I'm willing to lynch you.

I'll wait.

[Thor665]

I'd also like to reaffirm willingness to lynch Burn.

Just saying.

[Thor665]

I like you keep referencing me when the situation isnt about me.

Incorrect. You feel the situation is about me, and I feel it's about you. We're both arguably correct and it's silly to suggest otherwise.

Its your willingness to be ok to lynch ANYONE on page 2.

How many town reads am I supposed to have on Page 2?

Ill say it again, I think its careless to be fine with lynching ANYBODY this early in the game. I mean only 4 people have posted and some havent even confirmed.

Okay...
Are you going to answer my question now?

[Thor665]

I'll even make it easier on you.

Unvote: DaughterofLuthien
Vote: Burn_209

Now we don't even need to talk theoreticals, we can talk my actual attempts to lynch you - because I want you dead. Via rope. To neck.

[Thor665]

Its your willingness to be ok to lynch ANYONE on page 2.

How many town reads am I supposed to have on Page 2?

Also, reading it again, I realize how gakked up as an accusation this is.
I didn't even say I'd be down to lynch ANYONE.
I said I'd be down to lynch YOU.

[Thor665]

how many times and different ways do it have to answer your question dude? lol is that your strategy to have someone repeat themselves so many times that they just bash their face into the monitor and give up? lol

Maybe - maybe you could quote where you did answer it just to show how silly I'm being?

Like I seriously dont know how or in what way I can answer your question in which you understand i guess.

Well, to re-state it again, since I don't think you have answered it;

1. You understand that reads are allowed to change.
2. You understand that to pressure someone you have to act like a vote or opinion is willing to go all the way to lynch.
3. You have an issue with me saying I'd be willing to lynch you because it's CrAzY to do so.

I do not feel like 1-2 gel with 3.
I have asked you to explain how it does.
If you can answer this by quoting a previous post of yours, please do so and I'll apologize.
Until then I plan to think you're dodging.

Like you asking how many town reads you were supposed to have on Page 2. You are totally not understanding what I am saying and Im starting to think that it is on purpose. Im not willing to lynch anyone on page 2 because I dont have enough info and you are willing to lynch everyone on page 2 because you dont have enough info. That, right there, is the core of our debate and should answer any questions you may have.

Except why you think my playstyle deserves to be questioned specifically insomuch as I express willingness to lynch you but not when I did so for Daughter girl.

And you can determine that from the one maybe two posts I had?

Yes.
I even explained why.

Well you just reaffirmed my whole argument about you being careless and jumping the gun because whether it is me or anyone else in the game you shouldn't be down to lynch someone two posts into the game and that has been my point all along. I literally dont know how to put this to you any other way

Quoting the specific question I ask, and replying to each point in turn seems like a good way to go about it.

Actually, at the time you posted this, you had really been asked two questions: I asked why you picked me for RVS and Burn asked (in a roundabout way, yes, but it was obvious he wanted to know) why you thought he was scummy, and I asked why you though. Even if mine was a stupid question, you still chose to ignore it. And you called Burn out for asking in a roundabout way, but didn't bother answering the question.

There's a difference between not answering a question and 'not addressing it'
My opinion about his question was quite clear. I agreed I didn't do so for yours right away, but I was intentionaly not going to answer it and hope it would go away because it wasn't worth answering.
Even now that you have my answer you have done...wait for it...nothing with the answer. In effect, proving my point I think, yes? There was literally no way I could answer that question short of going 'well uh...oh, wait, I'm bad at being scum!' that could have given you anything to work with. Even now we're still debating it and you've literally drawn nothing from the interaction.

Anyway, it's not so much the specifics of the questions, but the fact that you had been - and still are, to some extent - asking for clarifications and motives from everyone, then turning and tossing around accusations without offering any explanations of your own.

Me asking questions has little to do with my answers to questions.
I have also answered all the questions I have been asked at this point, so the last part is pretty weak even if you wanted to go with the theory that I was trying to hide my motivations. What, my goal was to specifically hide them by pointing out that it was silly that he hadn't asked a question clearly, or that you were asking the motivation for a vote wherein I explained the motivation when I made the vote? I mean...seriously?

I get not sharing reads with the other players right away, but once you say you think someone is scummy, I don't get not sharing your reasons for it.

You will.

There still 13 days left before the day is over. Even if Burn thinks that someone seems a little scummy, unless something changes with how the votes stand he has plenty of time to watch them and come to a more definite decision. He hasn't even said who he thinks is scummy, so I'm not even you can call that mudslinging. It's at best flicking a little dirt into the air.

If you agree he's leveling accusations without being willing to stand behind them...which is literally what you said, then you should recognize that my point has merit. Yes, he has flung mud or flicked dirt without calling people scummy. You are fine with that, and I am not, but don't try to tell me it isn't happening when you are blatantly describing it. Seriously, where are you going with this?

As for my read on him, he's seemed fairly reasonable and logical so far, though he did get a little defensive after switched your vote to him. Though you haven't seemed so level-headed yourself, so I'm not gonna make any definite reads at this point, I don't think, not until I'm more sure. I tend to prefer the watch-and-wait method.

I hate the watch and wait method because it suggests lack of willingness to do work and help town.
Why do you think I look non-level in the cranium area?
Try to be specific if you can. It'll be almost as sexy as my beard.

[Thor665]

I'm confused at how to work the multi-quote option on this site. Someone explain?

There are two buttons for quoting in the upper right of every post.
One says quote - and will give you a quote of just that post.

The other says Q+ if you click it then it will change to Q-. When you click Q+ what you are doing is adding the post to your multi-quote, and if you click on a few and then scroll down and hit the 'Reply' button on the bottom of the screen you will get multi-quotes in your reply text box.

Make sense?

Thor i have quoted every single question in all of your posts and answered them to the best of my ability. You may not of understood them or they may not of been the answers that you seek but to say that I didnt answer them is wrong.

1. Since I asked you questions in my last post that you did not quote and answer, I am left feeling like this is a lie.

2. I also don't see you providing me a quote of your supposedly already answered question that I am asking - which, again, makes this feel like a lie and a dodge.

I'm really pretty happy-happy with my vote on you.
Think you can find me that quote now?

I'm sorry you all ^^; I didn't realize I was putting him at an L-1 and I think that's bad or something. You can probably see the newbie dripping off me.

Why is L-1 bad if you think Burn is scum?
What should we do instead of putting him to L-1, since you unvoted but then did nothing with your unvote?

Your summary of the situation appears to be right, and I think the town answer to the last line based on burns' previous posts would have been 'because it's what I thought, Smurfit!'
[snip]
And which I think is fine. The entire post has more info than that and feels quite brain-to-paper, so I'm leaning burns town for now. Otherwise I'm wondering what you were getting at with that particular question, Thor [optional question mark here].

Oh, snap, sarcasm! This will be the start of a beautiful friendship...or I will out sarcasm you and there will be an eternal divide. 50/50 it seems.

Okay, but...I'm actually confused as to your inability to see where I was getting at considering you think his 'brain to paper' reaction is all swell (and, indeed, that's the crux of his defense) Allow me to spell it out even more slowly.

1. He understands that reads can change and are not set in stone.
2. He understands that pressure reads exist.
3. He understands that pressuring people is a pro-town thing.
4. He used an answer that you liked that can be summed up as "because it's what I thought, so I shared it with people!"
5. He had no issue with my pressure on Daughter

and...

He thought it was sloppy and bad of me to announce that I'd be willing to lynch him.


Do you notice the disconnect now?
As in - he is fine with pressure and off-the-cuff quick comments regardless of strength of read. But he is worried that I am playing bad when I say I have a scumread on him. Not that my read is wrong, he doesn't even ask me the reasons for my read except in a roundabout way. But he suggests my PLAY is bad. Even though my play appears to be in line with his understanding of how the game is played.

That made me curious.
Why do you think it is so kosher?

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

@thor in my opinion when you say you are fine with lynching someone that means, to me, that the person has done something to make you convinced that person is scum. I think being convinced that someone is scum when that person had two posts in the game is careless because it shows that it doesnt take much to convince you of something in the future and the mafia can use that against you and in turn Smurfing all of us because you are a strong player.

If you think I play like that then how can you think I'm a strong player?
And if you think I'm a strong player, how can you think I play like that?

Seems like either way either you are misunderstanding/representing what I'm doing, or I'm a really pathetic player and am of no danger if scum misuse me.
Though I am happy you think I'm town.
Good to know.

Can someone explain to me what we're looking for right now? We don't have any reactions to deaths or anything to pick apart, just infighting about what seems to be nothing.

Hopefully what we're doing is "scumhunting"
If you need deaths before you can start scumhunting than you are a horrible dead weight around our necks right now.

The reality of what is happening is this;

Town knows jack all.
Scum knows who their buddies are.
Town needs to decide on someone to lynch - it is best to do so with lengthy discussions about the willingness of various people to lynch other people here.
Because, once we do start getting flips, that information becomes really worthwhile.

How would you propose we handle Day 1?
Also, why do you think the discussion is 'about nothing' if you also think Burn ended up looking scummy? <--- would really love the answer to this.

[Thor665]

Oh, so RVS is a misnomer then? Because I assumed that since it was Random Voting we weren't really supposed to have reasons yet. To be honest I sheeped on whoever had the most so we could move on to the next stage of the game. I retracted all votes because I thought it was a dangerous position to put someone who could very well be town. I realized you all were actually looking for some sort of evidence of something and it wasn't actually random. I thought my sheeping wouldn't help anything.

1. If your vote had no meaning other than to be random - why unvote?
2. If Day 1 will always be RVS, why be slow in lynching someone, why not just randomly do it?

I'm more acerbic than sarcastic.

I'll be fascinated to hear you define the difference sometime since you draw that dividing line.

There are a couple of other considerations in my mind - he's posting fairly prolifically and seems to be addressing your points but not kow-towing. Happy with my read as it stands.

Okay...but I have to admit all your responses seem to flow with an understanding of where I'm coming from already.
Why did you ask me for clarification of my angle in the first place?

[Thor665]

Well assume some random town member named NN got shot during Night 0 and we're on Day 1 now... not much different from how you used to play since if a game starts at Night 1, then there's nowhere to draw info from.

You need to stop stealing all my cleverest replies before I use them.

I was going to name the theoretical dead player 'Bob' though.

But I'll play your way now that I understand what y'all are doing).

And I already explained why I retracted the vote. I dislike uninformed votes because they muddy things up unnecessarily.

Then why make it in the first place?
Also, I thought you retracted it because it was L-1...did I misunderstand that?

[Thor665]

So where would you like to point a non-random finger?

[Thor665]

So much dodging and hemming in this thread.
I'm going to need a steam shovel to dig through this.
Must be a discount on fences down at the local shops.

[Thor665]

My eyes keep glazing as I look at this.
Eh, quick gut opinions;

Burn remains a good lynch.
I agree with the pseudo point about how queit Sakura is being, she should start shouting out some more reads. i think the point raised about the lack of her push on Daughter is very strong, I'm going to move both Daughter and Gale towards town for that, Gale being moved is amazing because I literally hate the entire rest of that post and find it rather scummy, but the one good kernal is there and it feels legit.
Talah's post tastes like wet cardboard seasoned with scraps of paper - it is bland and mushy and I shift her scummier for it...eh...I'll even say less scummy than Sakura, but it's by such a mushy nothing of degrees I'd happily flip-flop on it at the drop of a hat.
And have I mentioned that Burn remains a good lynch?
Yes?
Good, i'd like to do so again now.

[Thor665]

He's still alive?
Amazing.

[Thor665]

@Mod - can we get a prod on both Mr. Blonde and DaughterofLuthien please?

[Thor665]

@Zipper - I'm excited that you are pushing on Sakura. That said, what are your more general thoughts on the game and/or specific opinions of things in the game?

[Thor665]

@Gale
@Burn

We have ten days left - when are you planning to get a vote in play?
Hint: you want to put someone to L-1 and get a claim *before* the last day, y'know, in case you want to change your mind after the claim and lynch someone else.

[Thor665]

I want to withhold voting until I see Sakura's reaction post.

I am willing to lynch Sakura or Burn at this point.

1. Why, what will it change?

2. Why not vote Sakura then to add pressure to her to get a response from her? Especially if you're willing to take it all the way to lynch?

[Thor665]

I'll also say that if Zipper is scum he's tightened up his scum game from the last time we played.
...though I will admit that was...what, about a year ago or so?
So I do think he's capable of having become better since then. We'll call it a slight town lean for now, his reads feel organic enough for me to buy them.

[Thor665]

There are only eight days left.
You have no vote in play.
You are doing nothing but passively answering questions.
Where do you think you're going in this game?

[Thor665]

Where do you think you're going in this game?

I'm just trying to figure out how this game is played. I don't know any of the tactics for this and I don't want to screw the game over because I don't know what I'm doing.

What are you doing to advance your understanding of the new tactics you'll need?

[Thor665]

I don't feel you're doing enough to make mistakes.
Unless you're discovering inaction as a mistake,,,?

[Thor665]

Duly noted?
And wasn't one of my examples that I should have voted for pressure instead of doing nothing, thus "discovering inaction as a mistake"?

What are you doing to prevent further inaction?

[Thor665]

I hope that has a good explanation behind it.
Because it fills me with cold rage.

[Thor665]

Just because I'm focused on getting you lynched does not mean I'm tunneling.
The sheer fact I'm addressing many people about subjects that aren't you proves this.

[Thor665]

Heck, you case on Gale was something I brought to light through my actions.

[Thor665]

An acceptable answer, though if that's your goal shouldn't you be presenting a case on your current press?

[Thor665]

@Sakura - Why not toss out a couple of specific questions for Kyto that way your goal is more likely to see fruition.

@Zipper - what is your read on Sakura right now?

[Thor665]

Because she's scum.

[Thor665]

Because she's scum.

What leads you to that conclusion, and why are you not voting her?

Gut and how uninvolved she's been, which I find non-like her town play.
I am not voting her because I have multiple scum reads and I vote the strongest one - I honestly don't even understand why you would ask me that. It's pretty obvious and common, it's not like my vote isn't in play and isn't on the biggest wagon of someone I have also called scum. Derp?

[Thor665]

What are your thoughts on a Sakura/ kytoxid scum team Thor?

Seems vaguely unlikely, but if one flips scum I'd certainly entertain hearing about why I should lynch the other.

Considering the fact Sakura pushed such a weak case on DoL in the early game, and kytoxid replaced DoL and posted a combo defense/sheep of Sakura to push a wagon on Gala.

Meh.
Frankly I wouldn't expect the sort of call-out from Sakura to Kytoxid if they were a scum team, but I suppose it could have happened. Seems pretty weak as a connecting tell, even if it really is one.

[Thor665]

Expect a series of catch-up posts in the next couple of hours.

This is the second time you've promised content and then failed to deliver.
What is this gak?

[Thor665]

@Kytoxid - why do you like th eGale wagon. Three sentences or less is fine. Go!

[Thor665]

Questions!

@Thor:Gut and how uninvolved she's been, which I find non-like her town play.

@Thor: How would you describe Sakura Hana's town meta? How is it different than what you see from her in this game?

I feel like you quoted the answer and then asked the question.

[Thor665]

No he is just dong as Thor commands thats all. I dont think there is another angle or approach or whatever

[Thor665]

Didn't read all the way through when I posted that lol

[Thor665]

@Micc - could you describe to me why you think Antagon is scum? I glanced over your posts and, if you did it, I missed it.

Also, if you could give me your read on Sakura I would be most thankful.

[Thor665]

Sakura has done literally everything you have accused Antagon of. In fact, moreso except that she ahs a history of not being a lurksack.
Why are you voting the one over the other.

Also, what makes either of them scummier than Burn?

[Thor665]

Im voting Antagon because he has a wagon and Sakura does not.

Functionally, isn't this one of your stated reasons for taking issue with Antagon - that he "sheeps" people and votes cases already with support?

Burn, Antagon, and Sakura have equal scummyness in my mind. Im not sure which of the three I would prefer to lynch today.

So why unvote Burn?

I really just want Antagon to so up and talk with us, but my gut says he wont pick up this prod before being replaced.

So...your vote is meaningless where it is then?

[Thor665]

@Sakura - how do you feel about the gamestate in general right now and the wagon on you in more specific?

[Thor665]

I have said I've found your contributions lackluster.
I consider that a true statement.

I couldn't even begin to describe your issue with Gale if I was threatened with death otherwise.
The Antagon push feels...skeevy. I'm not sure if you're the skeevy one on it or not though, as some of the pushers there are now pushing you.

Do you have a take on Micc? I keep flip-flopping there.

[Thor665]

And that's an issue considering I have 4 scumspects now, as Kyto's entrance didnt make the slot look any better and he just seems to be jumping at anything that can go into a lynch just for the sake of jumping at it.

What are you doing to sort this out, since you've been here but are only reacting to me demanding answers from you instead of being proactive? Not all of your scumreads are lurking.

[Thor665]

So...you have 3 people you could be scumhunting that are here, is what I'm hearing.

[Thor665]

And now that you've heard more from Gale?

[Thor665]

What alignment do you suspect Sakura to have if this *is* an unusual movement of votes? Would that make her more likely town or scum? If you have no answer to that, then maybe the tell is null.

[Thor665]

It's two posts up.

[Thor665]

I'm mostly just checking in, I have an away game I need to leave for in half an hour or so and won't have access to a computer again until after 10PM (16 hours from now, give or take) tonight. Depending how much progress I make on my report on the bus I'll try to log on then.

Burn has a point. It seems like I'm grasping at straws because I am. I still don't understand what kind of behavior constitutes someone as scum, so I'm trying but without knowing what to look for I'm having a pretty hard time of it. Is there a bullet-list somewhere of things to look for, or is it an experience-based thing?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=19001

Now please stop being utterly useless.

[Thor665]

@Zipper - why do you think Burn is town now?

[Thor665]

Why do you think Sakura is more likely to be scum than him?

[Thor665]

A wagon or a lynch?

[Thor665]

@Thor: Who are you willing to lynch today? This game desperately needs a wagon on someone who is actually here to defend him/herself.

Burn.
And he's here.
And he's already reacted to his wagon so you ought to have a clear read on him of some type or another.

[Thor665]

@Zipper - with the time we have left, and your stated desire for a Burn lynch, why in the world are you dorking around with a pressure wagon on Sakura?

::insert Picard wtf is the smurf insult jpg here::

[Thor665]

Why don't you support a Sukura wagon/lynch at this point? You did say that you find her contributions lackluster a few pages back. Has that changed?

No, it hasn't.
I don't consider that a home run case on scum though, and I dislike some of the dancing around her lynch that I'm seeing.

[Thor665]

Is there any dancing in particular that you're finding shonky, then?
Does any of it conflict with your scumread on burns?

I am particularly unenamored by Zipper, Micc, *and* Gale.
Yeah, that's a big and ugly pool, but I don't like any of their motions and all of their votes on her feel skeevy despite me also thinking Sakura looks skeevy. The only one of the reads that affects my Burn read is Zipper, wherein if Sakura is town and Burn scum, than I'd really like Zipper for Burn's buddy.

[Thor665]

Why Gale over Burn?

[Thor665]

Burn also likes the Gale wagon.

[Thor665]

It better be pretty impressive reasoning to not respond to it today if you wish to handle it like that.

[Thor665]

Here's my case again in case you need it.
I've explained it multiple times.

1. He understands that reads can change and are not set in stone.
2. He understands that pressure reads exist.
3. He understands that pressuring people is a pro-town thing.
4. He used an answer that you liked that can be summed up as "because it's what I thought, so I shared it with people!"
5. He had no issue with my pressure on Daughter

and...

He thought it was sloppy and bad of me to announce that I'd be willing to lynch him.

Do you notice the disconnect now?

[Thor665]

the flip will give some valuable information about Thor

[Thor665]

[A]Claiming Intent to Hammer either of Sakura Hana and burn_209
---

Both Sakura and burn need to claim or provide a reason they should not.

I won't take it upon myself to make the decision which is lynched today, but I do want these claims so close to deadline.

I feel like A and B *really* don't go together.

Also, quite frankly, I don't want both to claim, I'd rather you decide which one you find more scummy and then state hammer intent on that single player.
And if you find neither scummy state that - and don't offer to hammer one of them.

[Thor665]

Why are you so whiny?

Do you think I didn't have a point about what you said earlier? Why the lash out?

[Thor665]

Also, the fact that Sakura is willing to hammer herself to avoid a no-lynch is pretty town to me.

I actually found that the scummiest thing in that post, and thought her at least trying to get out some reads felt townish, but the hammer thing felt like fake bluster.
Why do you think a promise like that is pretty town? It would be exceedingly easy to fake, and the only way it even comes into play is when it's at a stage she'll be lynched anyway so there's literally nothing a scum risks in saying it...why is it townish?

[Thor665]

Let me put it this way for clarity - I think that town wouldn't bother to announce that intent. They would decide at that moment to do it.
I think announcing it prior to needing to do it means it was done for town cred, and is thus null at best, and scummy at worst, and certainly not a pro-town tell...how am I wrong?

[Thor665]

Probably.

Again, though, how is that pro town to say? I'll agree that many people would argue it as pro-town to do (I am not amongst them, but that is another issue).
But it is of no help at all to say. It is, in fact, meaningless to say. So why should saying it be taken as pro-town?

You might as well take 'hey, guys, I'm not scum, serious!' as pro-town. Because it's meaningless to say and is easy for scum to say - therefore it is not a good tell of actual pro-town action or thought.
Can you clarify where you're coming from if I'm missing something here?

[Thor665]

Because, scum would think it's worth the sacrifice in order to take away a town ml. If someone says "hey I'm not scum" then that's null because both town and scum says this.

I feel like you're so close to sanity, but aren't noticing the obvious.

[Thor665]

Okay, so we have a little under five hours.
Talah has specifically chosen to lynch Sakura over Burn.
Burn and Sakura are sitting on a useless wagon together.
Fascinating on multiple fronts.

[Thor665]

So I know Scum-Thor knows that town doesnt know what they are doing, and is willingly sitting there doing nothing on the Burn wagon while it's obvious my wagon is the one more likely to be the lynch, despite all the time him saying that I'm scum and what not. I was eagerly awaiting for him to come to see if he would hammer, yet he didn't he decided to stay on Burn.

Maybe im wrong about Burn and Thor is busing, oh well, that's a problem for you guys to figure out on the forthcoming days.

None of this really makes sense.

Also, you're referencing people to my scum games - maybe you should tell them what to look for in those games that I'm doing here. It would help them catch me, after all.

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

I'm quite interested in seeing what will happen tomorrow considering you were soft-pushing me, even you could've hammered me already if you wanted, but you decided to stay off, which i find quite interesting.

It's called wanting to lynch Burn.

You also just robbed town of the info of who would have hammered you for deadline reasons - which is anti-town.

[Thor665]

I am not benefited by knowing I wouldn't have. I wanted to know who would.

[Thor665]

I put self-hammering as town into the same category as hammering someone you have an innocent on as Cop.
100% you know you are not scum - why should town ever vote that?

There are certain roles that are benefited by self voting.
There are even town roles that benefit by self voting.
None of those town roles are in a Newbie game.

I'll agree you were probably trapped after saying it.
I will further agree that you probably shouldn't have said it.

[Thor665]

Why do you have town leans on Burn and Zipper?

[Thor665]

Paranoia really froze you up this game, didn't it?

[Thor665]

Hurm.

Vote: Zipperflesh

I'm not against the idea of a Burn lynch run again though.
Despite people apparently being shockingly okay with his play here thus far.

[Thor665]

Thor, why didn't you want to vote for Sakura at all?

This question goes to you, burn, because you were also soft-pushing the Sakura lynch.

1. I was never soft pushing the Sakura lynch and it was silly enough she thought so, but if you'd like to suggest I was then you better be willing to back it up with some evidence to prove you're not just copying her silly accusation.

2. I didn't want to vote for her because I thought Burn was a substantially better lynch and didn't see it as a point in the day where I had to settle for a tertiary scum read.

[Thor665]

Also, Eagle, I wouldn't mind getting your read on Zipper and his play yesterday.

[Thor665]

Heck;

@Burn - your read on Zipper and his play yesterday.

Do it or I'll just vote park you for lulz today, you know I will.

[Thor665]

If Sakura was a "tertiary" scumread, that means you are still scumreading her right? So, you should have been fine with lynching Sakura, right? Also, I believe that Sakura's case on you towards the end of the day has some validity to it.

I wouldn't have been opposed to lynching her, but I feel like you're really confusing what is being said there.
If I really want ice cream,a nd would be okay with cookies,a nd both look to be equally possible for me to get - why should I start moving towards the cookies when the ice cream is right there? It doesn't make sense.

And her case on me still doesn't have validity, but I'll give you a pass on saying this because I'm going to ask Zipper to back it up.

I liked his catch-up posts and providing some content, etc. He needs to post more often though.

What did you like about his content?
It started at moderately acceptable stuff and then promptly accelerated into terrible as the end of day neared. Can you be specific about what was good?
Also, look at his vote on Sakura and my questioning of it (because, y'know, I was soft pushing Sakura...) and then tell me how you get a town read off that vote - I would really like to hear that explained.

Sakura brought up a good point about you soft pushing his lynch, but not unvoting burn.
And now you're parking a vote on me, while you soft push a burn lynch. Why am I suddenly a substantially better lynch than burn?

1. Sakura brought up a really bad point - but I'll give you a chance to show how good it was. Please explain how I soft pushed her lynch.

2. Yes, I am putting a vote on you, I think you're scum. You are a better lynch than Burn because my beard says so, also your end of day interaction with the Sakura and Burn wagons were beyond the ken of me to put into a towny mindset. How did that "wagon not to lynch" go for you there? You deserve rope for that one.

[Thor665]

All the 1-emoticon responses don't help either and only add to this. I looked through a couple of Thor's past newbie games and haven't seen him do this as town compared to when he's scum.

What was the purpose of this post? Everyone knows this already. What made it so fascinating?

The purpose, if you can't see it, probably isn't worth explaining. Especially if you think everyone knows what I was saying...I actually don't even understand what you're even on about here. Either everyone knew, and understood what was interesting, or people didn't, and I should need to explain it.

Why wouldn't you have shifted your vote to force a lynch?

Because that's how I roll - you did meta research on me, did you never see me talk about my theories as involve compromise wagons?
Quite frankly, with even Sakura pointing out how I wasn't going to lynch her, and with her alignment flip, I'm not even sure how this comes across as scummy. It's likely null or townish on my part.

And if someone was willing to shift their vote, what would that indicate about their alignment?

Considering she was town, I would have liked to have a nice set of players voting for her lynch. I also wanted to see if Burn would do it, quite frankly, or if someone would have moved off Burn. I sort of figured Burn would but wanted the proof.

@Micc and Gale: Quit lurking and let us know what you think of Thor and Zipper.

So you agree with me about Zipper?

[Thor665]

@Zipper - multiple of those posts are "soft pushing" her when there wasn't even a wagon on her. Multiple others are pushing Burn more than her. Some of them are simply conversations with no pushes, soft or not, at all. Some of them aren't soft pushes, but statements of my reads. Some of them have me calling her actions townish.

I am drastically underwhelmed.

[Thor665]

Oh, and Zipper, if I was soft pushing her...why didn't you bring up how I got pissy at you for starting the wagon on her?
I pretty much flat out said I thought it was dumb and you should vote Burn.

Or was that a clever double play on my part?
Tell me more.

[Thor665]

You didn't get pissy at me for starting the wagon on Sakura, I didn't even start her wagon....

I didn't get pissy with you?
What was this then?

@Zipper - with the time we have left, and your stated desire for a Burn lynch, why in the world are you dorking around with a pressure wagon on Sakura?

::insert Picard wtf is the smurf insult jpg here::

Because, y'know, that's what i do when someone falls for my masterful scum plan of soft pushing someone. I tell them the wagon is dorking around and that they should sheep me on someone totally different.



Again, tell me more.

You did however fill with cold rage when I dropped of the wagon you started on burn to vote Antagon.

Which, again, suggests that I wanted to lynch Burn - which is what I've been saying was something that I did wish to do.
Also, as just shown, I also got annoyed when you opted for Sakura instead of Ant and, again, it was because I wanted you on Burn.
My scum play is clearly just levels on levels of soft pushing to control your mind subtly.

[Thor665]

Continuing to not clearly communicate anything. Alright.

You do realize people have even stated a pseudo meme about my

response, right? I'm just curious, could you link me to the games that show I do it as scum and not town? I would be fascinated to see you back up this claim.

If Burn did shift over to hammer Sakura for deadline reasons, would this be scummy? Also, do you think Burn is scummy, period?

Depends how he did it, but in a total vacuum of knowing that I would say, yes, it would more likely be a scummy action than a townish action.
No, I clearly don't think he's scummy 'period' or I'd be voting him right now. I do think he's pretty darn scummy and have said repeatedly why, and would say I'm the guy who started and maintained the entire burn=scum case - so clearly I endorse the idea of him being scum pretty strongly compared to everyone else.

I agree that Zipper deserves a closer look.

Can you describe why for reasons that aren't mine...or clarify that you're sheeping my thoughts?

[Thor665]

I would still love to see more votes on Zipper.
Frankly, all the votes on me should be on Zipper, because if you believe I am scum for a "soft push on Sakura" I would be fascinated to know why none of you are addressing what Zipper did with his vote there.

[Thor665]

What about burn?

Well, as I literally stated in my first post of the day, I could still support a wagon on him, however my Zipper read is currently the stronger one that I'm more interested in exploring.

All get to this after work which is about 6:30 pst and you have my word on that. Im just runnin low on time to give a well thought out post. I will say that I have a neutral read on him. In my opinion he did both scum and town things yesterday. Now when I get home tonight Ill do a double check and give you a well thought out post on him I promise.

By my accounting you've been off work for an hour and a half - any progress on this?

[Thor665]

@Thor: Regardless if people have stated a meme or not, I would prefer if you told us if you were thinking something. At best, it's not contributing any substantial to scum-hunting. At worst, it's posting to seem like you're in the discussion without actually being there.

Conversely, I submit posting is making *exceedingly* clear what I think of the post.
I mean, seriously, do you look at that and say to yourself "I can't tell whether Thor likes or dislikes that post...it's so mysterious!"?
And, actually, that people have started a meme over it means I do it a lot...which really begs the question why you think it is a scumtell.

As for examples, you did not make such posts in Newbie 1372 as endgamed townie, while you made several in 1399 as mafia. (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p5145413 is one such post from 1399.) I will admit it's not a strong scum tell, but the play is definitely not pro-town.

Well, first off, I also did the face as town in 1372 quite a bit;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4948638
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4949559
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5019545

And, even if your point is just 'Thor expressing displeasure without explaining the reasons - I did that in that game too;
Riiiiight I just didn't do it with a smilie.

Also, you now seem to be backing off of calling it a scumtell and are now retreating to calling it an anti-town tell. If that's all you're doing then I don't care, but please clarify which you're saying. Are you saying it's pro-town and that I do it meta wise as scum and not town? Or are you saying it's a generic anti-town thing to do.
Because your current post seems to be saying something different from when you first brought this up, and I'm rather not a fan of the shift.

Half of it is for his D1 actions on the Sakura wagon, as you've stated. The other half is because he seems to be looking for an opportunistic lynch. I haven't seen him try to identify who the other townies are, and his responses to questions of that nature have been disappointingly lacking in detail.

So you think I'm not explaining things, but can admit you understand my case on my prime suspect and also that you agree with the presented logic.
This confuses me considering your current push - obviously I'm not going to take the time out of my day to explain EVERYTHING I think, so at that point all we're doing is debating how many of my thoughts I explain and why - if I'm explainign top scum reads...what more do you really need and why is it anti-town/scummy to not do it?

[Thor665]

Also, here's an interesting question.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p5339664

This is a post from Town Thor.
It is *exactly* the type of thing you claimed I did as scum and not town.
I found that post by going into my profile, clicking on 'My Topics' and finding literally the first game in the list listed as over.

How did you find your samples for this meta research you did? Because the two you did use are further down the list.
Cherry picking?

[Thor665]

Thor, that self-meta in attempt to clear yourself is scummy

Um...you do realize that she attacked me on a meta ground and I told her the meta was gakked and so was her logic?

If she attacks me on meta grounds how am I supposed to call her wrong *without* referencing meta?

Justify this rather silly stance please.

[Thor665]

Also, it's not even like I said the meta made me town.
All I claimed was it made me null because I do it in all my games.

Justify quickly.

[Thor665]

A lot of what he's saying doesn't make a lot of sense, and the shift to me feels desperate.
I'd still really like to lynch Zipper first.

[Thor665]

@Thor:

My point is that I'm not understanding your thought processes and how you arrived at each conclusion. It doesn't even provide whether you dislike it because you think it was scummy, or you dislike it because it's not clear, or you dislike it because it disagrees with what you believe. As I mentioned to talah, I want to put you into my town pool, but the lack of understanding of how you arrived at your conclusions is making it difficult.

So, to clarify, it actually has nothing to do with me being unclear or unexpressive on opinions. It has to do with you wanting me to explain my thought process on...everything? Do I need to explain my thought process on why I find this silly and obnoxious to request?

Here's an idea - when I advance an idea, and you don't understand it, ask me *that specifically*. Don't come and attack me for "not explaining" when I haven't been asked to explain anything. I, and most players in...*this* game, much less most players in all the other games on MS do not explain every thought process. To be honest, a lot of people don't even explain their thought process when asked, which is why the entire concept of 'gut' reads even exists - because some things can't be understood or explained fully even by the person thinking them.

If this is really your issue I feel you came at it from a sideways approach, and in a ridiculous way wherein you didn't make it clear what your issue really was.

I skimmed your games, missed that post, and drew the conclusion based on the overall sense of your meta. My apologies.

What do you think of baldeagle attacking me for my meta defense? What do you think his logic was?

I understood your burn case on D1 from post 67 very well, but have not seen much of the same afterwards. For your Zipper scum read, I understand the evidence you're presenting (his actions on the Sakura wagon), but I don't know what your

logic

is. Different people can see different things in the same posts. Could you hash your logic out?

I do not understand this question. You understand the actions of his that I have pointed out...but you don't understand the logic of how that makes him look scummy...?
Do you think his actions that I have noted are town or null tells? Because I would be fascinated hearing why.
He avoided a stronger wagon that he had expressed support of in order to do a last minute pressure wagon on a player who was then lynched and flipped towm. I feel like that is prima facie for scum motivation and intent. Where am I losing you into thinking it is null or town on his part?

Thor basically questions everyone to figure them out, that’s townish. He’s been tunnelling Burn throughout the entire game. @thor: What’s so scummy against Burn?

I made a case against Burn, have you read it yet?
If not, keep reading.
If you have and you don't understand it, ask me to clarify the part you don't understand.
Otherwise all I'd do is re-state the case again or go and quote the post I made it in.

[Thor665]

Considering the number of things I called out Burn on, I'm sad you missed all of them even though you realized I didn't like the slot.

Maybe try a Ctrl+F with 'Burn' in my iso? That should help focus you in.

[Thor665]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p5403540

There.
It's like the second post I made after voting him. Ctrl+F is amazing.

[Thor665]

And if you're going to say you read, and then ask me about why i think Burn is scummy...? Dude, just say you're skimming or something, don't lie about what you read, because that makes me want to lynch you. Honesty is town's best tool.

[Thor665]

Then why dont you tell her why she doesnt make sense instead of just telling her that she doesnt make sense. Thats what makes me really think you are scum above everyone else.

...I...*d8d* tell her exactly why i thought her case didn't make sense?

You dont respond to peoples questions or comment on their posts.

First off you say because your beard says so, which is basically saying "because I said so now deal with it." Then you said they were beyond the ken of me to put into a towny mindset. You didnt explain why you thought that or even elaborate on it. You just gave a vague answer and expected people to accept it. Nowhere in that post did you post something and elaborate why you thought the way to did or backed it up with any facts or opinions. All you did was say here is what I think now deal with it

And...I *have* explained that one as well.

Again here is another vague half Smurfed answer to a question. If you were town you would actually be helpful and explain that post to someone who is trying to get clarification on the post. Instead you were like "if you cant see it then you are stupid and I dont need to answer to you"

Well, actually she was accusing me of IioA and then *also* accusing me of not explaining things. I was pointing out to her that either I was scum for talking about stuff that everyone knew already or I was scum for not explaining stuff, but I couldn't be scum for both at the same time. I wasn't trying to explain anything in that post, I was scumhunting her odd stance. So, yes, i didn't explain anything in a post I was not trying to explain stuff in.

but if that was the case why didnt he change his vote when it was apparent that I wasnt going to be lynched yesterday?

I do not think this was ever the case - especially not if Sakura hadn't self-voted.

So let me get this straight. Above you say that you dont have to explain anything and that is is a ridiculous request for us to ask you explain everything. Then you go on to further say that it is widely accepted among MS for people not to explain things to people and some don't even do it when asked. Then you go on and are ready, willing, and able to explain to cxinlee your case on me?

Yes.
I don't actually understand what is strange about that, nor where any of it is hypocritical or illogical.

You do realize out contradictory this is right?

No. I don't.
Explain it?

Also I love how you use what is widely accepted in MS as a crutch for your actions.

That's actually half the point of the Newbie game queue - to teach you what is normal on Mafia Scum. Go read the job of the IC again.

Why do you just have a null read on Zipper?
If you really do - what are you doing to make it a clearer read for yourself?

[Thor665]

Actually a better option is that Eagle's scum with neither cx or Thor and panicky because his team tried to kill Thor last night and wants to end the day as soon as possible.

That is a possibility.

That said, if you think scum tried to kill me, it reinforces the Zipper issue quite a bit. And if you don't think it does that - then it's about the Burn issue. I'm fine with you buying into either, but want the Zipper votes right now.

[Thor665]

Well - you've got the Zipper vote right now. So I'd appreciate if you did something with it, as you just ninja'd me about to vote Eagle.

I'm trying to build a ruddy Zipper wagon over here, there's a reason it's hard and a reason that a counterwagon formed on me as I did it - don't derp.
Also, a deeper run on your Burn=teh townz read would be nice...you can work on it while you vote Zipper.

So thor essentially your arguement against him is that he finds pressuring a town thing to do, yet he does not respond well when pressured?

Sorry Im still getting used to the game

In a very simplistic way - yes. The more relevant way to describe it would be this;

He understands actions A, B, and C and considers some of them townish and the others null. He calls me scummy because I do A, B, and C.

That looks like a pretty decent case to me - what are your thoughts?

Honestly if you'd been killed and flipped town I'd powerlynch burn just to find out. Then if he flipped scum I'd sheep you posthumously on Zipper unless he started Smurfing bricks of golden towniness.

Do you think that's a bad train of thought?

Not if you just go ahead and sheep me now. Then we can just keep an eye out for the golden bricks.

[Thor665]

He was aware that pressurising others is a pro-town thing to do,

But I think it wasn’t the pressurising that made him call you scummy

I think it was more of you pushing for a lynch really early in the game

He was also aware that pressuring people is done by voting them. At that point, he was calling me scummy for scumhunting.

I forgot the case and I'm a bit crook today and won't read back till tomorrow now. Something to do with burn being scum and him pushing but not pushing? I know I had a look and picked out some oddities for myself, but he did come back with responses which seemed legit enough to me - given he doesn't lurk off.

You'll note that he has not addressed my case except to go 'oh lawks, Thor is scum, c'mon, oh hurry, lynch him, lynch him na0w!'
I don't consider that a good answer.

[Thor665]

Thor is scum, c'mon, oh hurry, lynch him, lynch him na0w!'
I don't consider that a good answer.

I voted for you. Never once have I stomped my feet and said come on lynch him now. In fact I havent asked anyone else to vote for you. This post right here is bullshit and putting words into peoples mouth.

Maybe I would be putting words into your mouth. I guess that would be scummy.
It's a good thing the above quote wasn't me talking about you then - which means you're actually putting words into my mouth.
Does that make you scummy?

[Thor665]

I don't see how it wasn't. It said my name in the post you were responding to but if it wasn't me you were talking about then enlighten me on who you were referring to.

Well...I was talking to Talah about a read she had. Why don't you go back and figure out what read she's talking about, and then, magically, you'll know which read I was talking about.
Hint: Zipper.

Did I say you were trying to clear yourself

as town?

No, you were trying to go "Whoa, whoa, look here, *insert games here*" without Ky asking for it. I just don't like it when people do that. It just seems like you were trying to brush it off by doing that. Now, if Kytoxid asked for it, then I would have been fine.

No, that's bull-hookie.
She presented a case that I was scum because of *Example A* meta.
I said *Example A* seems to have been created falsely, can you back up why you have that conclusion, because *Example B* and *Example C* seem to suggest you're making stuff up.
Explain to me why town would not do what I did, or even, what town should have done instead of what I did.

Because I still really do not like that answer from you.

Lol. I'm voting for a scumread = I'm desperate

Actually, I said your reasons to call me scummy made the vote look desperate. If you can convince me you really believe what you're saying I'll withdraw the desperate label.
So keep shucking.

[Thor665]

Why do you say that giving someone a chance to reply to an accusation won't change anything? For all you know they might explain their actions well.

I actually didn't say it would change nothing, I wanted to know what he thought it would change to the point he would voice desire to lynch them but not be willing to vote. Either you are or are not willing to vote the person, if you're waiting on an answer then you're not actually willing to lynch them.

[Thor665]

And wasn't one of my examples that I should have voted for pressure instead of doing nothing, thus "discovering inaction as a mistake"?

Also, Gale even agreed with my point on the next page after I pushed him on that line of questioning.
I still am not overly fond of his answers and actions, I'll admit.

[Thor665]

@Mod - an update of Page 1 to reflect Gale=Montosh would be nice

Took me an iso search to even puzzle out who you were. I look forward to this question concept being expanded on.

[Thor665]

@Zipper - What is your read on Burn and baldeagle?

[Thor665]

Yes I haven't found things scummy YET

And yes you may Smurf me

[Thor665]

I already told you what town should have done.

Yeah, you said I shouldn't use a meta defense against a meta attack...which makes no sense. When you are meta attacked you either ignore it or meta defend it - there are no other options. You said that me using meta was scummy, and ignored that I was attacked on a meta level obligating me to use meta if I wished to address it.

And, for the record, judging by the reactions of the attacker...my meta defense was pretty darn accurate and correct and the attack was bad.

So, again, what was town me supposed to do other than what I just exactly did?

Yeah. The soft-push on Sakura. When I tried to talk to him about it, he just denied it.

Yes, I did. Because it didn't happen.
I've even shown in my attack on Zipper that I *actively* opposed the Sakura wagon.
So...y'know, maybe address that? At least call me a liar over it or something to help justify your stance.

[Thor665]

Hi. Can you do me a favour and summarise Thor's counter-points on Zipper? He really doesn't seem to be pushing anything very hard and apparently wants to get a wagon going but doesn't want to push a case.

For the record, I've been asked for the case multiple times and repeated it multiple times. So...

@Thor - what is your read on Kytoxid? Do you think a neutral-face meta-argument is really a good way to scumhunt on you?

I think it is an utterly horrible and trash case, which is why I called it bad and challenged the conclusion. That, with me in a death spiral, Kytoxid's reply was "...oh, snap...you're right, my case is really bad and weakly supported :unvote!:" makes the slot look pretty townish to me. There is an actual attempt to scumhunt there, work was put in, and conclusions were reached - but more importantly she was open to new ideas and also the idea she could be wrong. Looked like town thought.

Why, what's your read?

Also can you get all those wagons happening that you want to push, but aren't pushing? I'm about ready to launch a Burden of Proficiency argument on you.

First off, I don't think you understand what a BoP argument would entail considering your expressed issue. Second off I *have* presented a case for Zipper and am quite forcefully pushing it, so I'm not sure what more you expect about it, nor why you expect me to be pushing "all those wagons" when I have been really clear and focused all day about wanting Zipper lynched, not about a wide variety of people I want lynched...where is that idea even coming from?

Also I realised the problem with your burn case recently. Note this is from memory as far as being the sixth point:
6) He's town and is worried that you're scum pushing for his mislynch.

That does nothing to affect my push on him nor do I even understand how it becomes a 'problem' for my case on him.

Otherwise if you're confused you could just sheep me *shrug*

Your bald case is pretty interesting, but it seems to hinge on Zipper being scum to my eyes, unless you can explain why else Bald would need to go into desperate derp reverse of his reads on both me and Zipper. With that being the case you should be sheeping me, not the other way around, unless I'm missing something...clarify?

[Thor665]

Heck, let's lynch Zipper and I'll Keep Bald in mind for tomorrow, that sounds like good planning to me.

[Thor665]

I am leaning scum on eagle and would def be okay with pushing a wagon on him. I didn't like his predecessors actions, nor did I like the way he sheeped on the burn wagon day 1. Then he started day 2 being gung-ho for a burn lynch, but suddenly turned 180 once the Thor wagon was hot.

I find that an odd position to take considering your stated positions on the other principles in play. Can you clarify this at all?

@Thor: So your read on me is town? You’re acting nice to me. (It’s odd because you seem to think I’m town for no reason).

I haven't called you town - I wasn't aware I had to treat everyone like a twit in order to prevent sending out that vibe. i could be more ruse to you if that would help you out, let me know.

#462 I think you misquoted, or am I just seeing things?

I quoted exactly correctly. What concerns or confuses you about it?

[Thor665]

Can you clarify what you find odd about my position?

You find Eagle scummy for a sudden flip on me.
You find me scummy.
You think both of us were coordinated enough to combine push on Burn, but sloppy enough to choose to distance in the manner we have,.

Clarify?

Hint: I think you're scum.

[Thor665]

I'd also like to request a prod on Montosh and Burn, both of whom have gone over 48 hours with no posts.

I agree with former Talah that more votes should either be in play or stated at this stage.
They could probably be pretty useful on Zipper.

[Thor665]

I find eagle scummy for his sudden change in position. It has nothing to do with you, Thor.

And that the person he flopped on was a person you think is scum didn't affect your read at all?

[Thor665]

I mean, wouldn't that at least look like either a bus or a town seeing the light to you or something?

[Thor665]

Oh, Thor, you were on and off. You seemed like you were against it and you weren't. Probably forgot to meta-dodge Sakura so she wouldn't suspect you.\

Does this even mean anything?

[Thor665]

What does it obviously mean?

[Thor665]

I mean a lot of his defenses are "why did I get mad when we were switched the vote." and that he stated that he was wondering why we were dicking around starting a wagon on someone else. To me those arent valid defenses or counter points.

They are if the case on me is that I wanted the Sakura wagon to happen and was trying to make it happen.
Is that *not* the case on me? Because if it isn't then I don't know what is.

[Thor665]

@Thor: why did you call burn scum without looking at other perspectives? Like talah said, it is possible he thought you were scum for trying to push for his lynch early in the game. Not the pressure. The lynch.

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to respond to that because it feels like a very silly question.

I take a bite of a hot dog.
I declare that I don't like the taste of it.
You ask me why I didn't consider that I like it.

I feel like that's what just went down.

Burn did something.
I asked him about it.
He answered.
I asked him some more questions.
He answered those.
I asked him a third set of questions about the action.
He answered those.
I declared that his belief system doesn't appear to hold water and that I find it scummy.

Please clarify for me how you think I showed *lack* of consideration.

[Thor665]

I still dont like how Thor gives half Smurf answers and has honestly hasnt added anything.

I have added and created multiple wagons and reads - indeed, most of the major wagons are based off information I brought to light one way or the other.
Also, what questions am I still not answering? I feel like I keep offering to do o and you keep evading saying what isn't answered.

Its like he is sitting back and is taking it all in, calculating, and not letting us know what he is thinking. If you are town you would want your thought process out there so that you can work as a team with us and get other peoples opinion.

Riiiiight, so I'm "sitting back" when I was trying to lynch you yesterday? I was "taking it all in" when I opened up today with a strongly stated desire to lynch Zipper?
What are you even talking about?

The town is supposed to and normally does work as a team and I dont see you doing that.

Specifically how are YOU doing that? I need to know so I know what it is I'm not doing.

[Thor665]

How am I doing that? By giving my reads and cooperating with the rest of the town. When have you cooperates with the town. Cooperating with the town isn't your strong suit is it

So, basically you're saying I'm too convinced I'm right...and that it's scummy that I don't think I'm wrong enough to want to lynch people other than who I want to lynch.
I'm not sure that's actually scummy in any way, shape, or form.

And did anybody else catch him commenting on the lack of the night kill at the beginning of the day? I'm surprised Thor or somebody else didn't try to nail his feet to the floor for that one.

Why should we think that is scummy? I agree that he's scum, but I see that sort of commentary from newb town as much as I do from newb scum.

[Thor665]

He reads more Newbie to me than to you then, clearly. What makes him feel more experienced to you?

[Thor665]

I find eagle scummy for his sudden change in position. It has nothing to do with you, Thor.

And that the person he flopped on was a person you think is scum didn't affect your read at all?

[Thor665]

No, Thor it doesn't effect my read. Eagles flop was scummy and makes no sense to me. How many more ways do I have to say it? I'm starting to feel like you'll try to twist everything I say to fit into your case.

Do you think it's possible that Eagle and I are scum together? Because if his flop was so bad as to make him a scum read for you and yet you're still voting me it looks like either you think we are scum buddies or you are hoping to set up a lynch for tomorrow after I flip town.

[Thor665]

The “lack of consideration” was that you weren’t looking at other perspectives.

You taste the hot dog
You don’t like it.
You conclude that hot dogs are horrible.
I say what if it was just poorly cooked? Maybe it was burnt? Maybe you're sick?

It still doesn't make sense - if I was sick I would know that could affect how I feel, if it was burnt I could see that, also, I concluded that *that* hot dog was bad, not that all hot dogs are bad.

But, let's walk with this a bit - can you show where I showcased how I *hadn't* considered his action? As in, the instant I saw it I called him scum as opposed to trying to figure out if maybe he was town? Because I think it is quite clear that I considered he was town, why don't you explain how you figure I didn't.

[Thor665]

I saw that your conclusion was one-sided, and how it did not add any other possibilities.

How did you see this?

I know that you are pointing at my conclusion and claiming there was no consideration prior to that - but what makes you so sure of that belief. Obviouslly a conclusion will state a final belief, but what did I do to showcase that I refused to consider other options?

Let's do this, clearly you "considered other options" before calling me out for this tell, right? I'm guessing one of those other options was "Thor did consider other options" Just tell me how you ruled out that I had - that's all I'm asking.

[Thor665]

hi

Hi, we have 3 days till deadline and stalled wagons.

Your primary goal is to get a read on me and Zipper. If you think one of us is scum vote them asap and say why you think this.
If you think we're both town then start screaming like crazy and try to start an alternate wagon.
Time is of the essence.

[Thor665]

I want the reasonings behind both wagons before I reread

Short answer;

Zipper thinks I soft pushed the lynch town wagon yesterday and wanted it to go through as a scum plot of evil.

I think Zipper blatantly advanced the lynch town wagon while claimign it was to "pressure" her with a few days left prior to deadline and ignoring the alternate wagon of someone he was calling scum and then disappeared for those days to let the wagon go through as a scum plot of evil.

So now whassup with you?

#67

From my perspective you just used the points to conclude that Burn, without adding any other possibilities.

Clearly when I reached a conclusion I wouldn't advance other possibilities - that's what a conclusion is.
Prior to my conclusion why do you rule out that I didn't consider other possibilities...it certainly seemed to take me a while to reach my conclusion if I just leaped to it immediately, which seems to suggest I was doing some sort of consideration on it, at least that's what I think. What do you think it looks like and why did you decide it wasn't me considering things? I'd really like a clear answer on this, as functionally it's what you're asking me to prove, and yet you seem to be having some issues with proving that you worked it over and ruled it out.

Is that because you worked it over and ruled it out in your head and didn't post every possibility you considered and instead simply posted your conclusion when you reached it?

And if that is true, and what I am content to believe happened, then why do you expect different from me?
And why can't you show different from yourself in that case?

[Thor665]

If Zipper is scum I am definitely keeping an eye on Burn.
If I die over night people should remember this.

[Thor665]

But I don't claim early intents to hammer so I'll just let you all stick these in your pipes to smoke on

You have just made the most boring and safe reads list you could possibly do.
Please let us know which of your 3 scum reads is your biggest scum read and why.

Actually the thing is I never came to any conclusion. I simply made an observation and asked for your point of view before I could conclude anything.

Yes, I am aware that my argument is weak.

Yup. Which makes one wonder why you were still riding it when I was at L-1.

I thought that if you had considered Burn’s perspective, you would’ve have thought of the possibility that it was the lynch he was upset of rather than the pressuring itself.

I thought of a number of reasons he might have said what he said, that's why I asked him many questions to better understand his stance prior to voting him over it.
I always understood that his expressed issue was the lynch - I even used that *as part of my case*. So I am now even more confused about what you're on about.

[Thor665]

You have just made the most boring and safe reads list you could possibly do.
Please let us know which of your 3 scum reads is your biggest scum read and why.

Heck, your scum reads are;

Thor's scum reads...plus Thor.

So I'm really fascinated to see this clarified.

[Thor665]

#1 I as scum would not try to kill a town Thor N1. He's like an obv choice for protection roles N1, and Thor knows this, so Im not sure why he is allowing that argument to swing people on my lynch.

People are arguing that I was protected, so they appear to agree with you as far as that goes.

#2 I AM the reason we had a deathless night. I also think Thor has realized this, which explains why he started on me as soon as day broke, using his day 1 suspicions to help float his case.

Will this softclaim become any harder?

[Thor665]

Did you read the name of the tiers?

I'm townhunting. I'm not scumhunting.

I've stated who I think to be town so

Don't really care if you can't decide who is the towniest and the scummiest of your remainder.
Are you seriously telling me you can't?

Also, please define the difference between 'not knowing' about Eagle and 'not in the townbloc' with Zipper, Burn and I.
Because if you are just ruling out town reads than Eagle's placement in your tiers appears to make no sense.
What am I missing?

[Thor665]

I think we should just lynch Thor, I'm going to give zipper the benefit of the doubt and call him town.

How does that make me scum?

[Thor665]

Unvote: Zipper
Vote: Burn

If he actually does flip scum and with what Zipper is mouthing off about then maybe I need to keep Bald in my mind for a sharper look at. I guess I will, because otherwise I'll just be paranoid about him for ages due to how, so yeah, a note to myself and others can hold me to it to just keep Bald in mind.

[Thor665]

The no lynch was bad.
Zipper continues to look bad.
Bald is trying desperately to look scummier than Zipper.
Burn needs death, and he needs death now - unless you think scum no killed to...help...Burn...look less scummy...?

Vote: Burn

I want to keep an eye on Bald for tomorrow, if not him than Zipper needs death methinks.

[Thor665]

Oh, and kytoxid, notscience, and Bulba are all pretty obv. town.
Cxinlee is my third, random, wild swing, maybe guess for scum if both Bald and Zipper are town. But I sorta think it's just poor play muddying my perception there - Zipper doesn't have that excuse, and Bald seems slick enough to grok it if he was behaving like town, so both of them look worse.

[Thor665]

I agree that the no-lynch was bad. Should have been you. Also, I seriously have no idea what you are trying to prove by me desperately trying to look scummier than zipper. Also, why are you scumreading all of your attackers? All of your townreads are the people who are towreading you, while everyone who attacks you is scum.

That should tell you something about the quality of the wagon on me.

Thor, elaborate more on cxin.

In what way and for what purpose?
I want Burn lynched.

[Thor665]

I'm not sure what's confusing you about it - you have Cxinlee as uber obv. town? That's great - we'll worry about that if my other, stronger, scum reads are proven wrong.
Again, I don't see the value of trying to debate me on a 4th strongest scum read at this stage - clarify?

[Thor665]

I would presume that's why I'm not advancing that as a push I want to make.
Honestly what you said seems to make a lot of sense as a belief and I'm not sure where I'm losing you.

"I think 2 scum are in this group of three"
"I have an outside guess for scum in this fourth guy, but am ruling him out for now"

Also, though we only have 1 mislynch left, we have 2 lynches available, so...

[Thor665]

It is fascinating that you say I don't want to hear anything that doesn't fit my case...when I submit you haven't actually tried to talk to me about my case on you nor my case on Burn. Can you link me to that conversation and show me what it was I refused to listen to? I would be intrigued.

[Thor665]

So...then there's *not* anything I've refused to discuss? Or is what I've refused to discuss just a generic 'Zipper doesn't like Thor's cases'?

Because this is feeling really weak.

[Thor665]

@Bulb - are you serious about that? Because I am a super aggressive busser and even I don't think scum would bus Burn like I've been doing. Then look at the vote counts and recognize that what he's *actually* doing is desperately trying to get a counter wagon going. Which, again, means I'm town.

That said, if anyone not currently voting Burn thinks that looks like a desperate last minute bus, then I fully endorse you believing it - please vote Burn.

[Thor665]

@Bulb - oops! (unless you believe it, then soak it up)

@notscience - the @Bulb in 636 is meant for you, not him.

[Thor665]

That is probably true - but I actually just took the fishflop image as an answer and decided you had said what notscience had said - which is why I corrected myself when i realized I'd made that error.

[Thor665]

So you want a case that ignores 60% of his posts?

Why?

[Thor665]

Or, wait, are you even asking for a cohesive case, or you just want me to talk about what he's done since Day 2+ that I think is scummy? Is that it?

[Thor665]

If you understand why he was scummy on Day 1, why should you or I reset that information on Day 3 unless something in the gamestate has altered to change that info?

This sounds like busy work with no logic behind asking me to bother to do it, so I am pretty loathe to bother. Justify the logic of the request more or accept refusal and react to that.

[Thor665]

1) Because there seems to be no reason to, and certainly none you have justified.

2) Because I think you're highly potential scum so my urge to leap through any busywork hoops for your benefit is exceedingly low, so I'm not going to do it 'just because' like I (might) do for a town read.

Again, if you understand the case, why do you need analysis of Day 2+? What will it gain me to bother to do it?
If all you want to do is revisit your "Thor hasn't changed th ecase since Day 1" then...well, that info is already there and exists and is true, so just ride with it for whatever it is worth (not much).
If you honestly don't understand how he's scummy at all, then your question is inherently flawed because it i beyond nonsensical to then ignore over half his posts and 1/3 of the game Days.

The request makes no sense, and seems to be meaningless busy work, and your pushes are bad and scummy and I don't really feel any need to help you grok the gamestate at this stage.

[Thor665]

I am fascinated that you consider us possibly a bus. I look forward to you justifying that belief at endgame and will happily discuss it with you then as long as you remind me.

If you *wish* to get into it now, feel free to ask. But my basic assertion is - it's pretty laughable as a stance at this stage.

[Thor665]

Oh, and I will keep asserting things - just as you can assert your belief that it's a bus action, I can assert mine that it plainly isn't, and that the actual action is a town tell on me if Burn is scum. There is literally no difference between stating the two things. I may call your opinions incorrect and bad, but you'll note I never claim you shouldn't make them - try to manage the same.

[Thor665]

I had a defense post, but really both of the above pretty much summed up my attitude about both Zipper's lulz vote and Bald's scummy posturing.
I will add this part though, because it's clever and will help me understand Zipper a bit more;

This game is stalling out. I've not seen anything since day 1 to reinforce a burn scum case, and I do not like the fact that Thor is ignoring all his day 2 and day 3 actions.

Yeah, I guess I *am* ignoring his Day 2 and 3 actions.
Which are the townish actions he took that I should be changing my read over?

[Thor665]

And for those whining about how I haven't "Added" to the case, I would note that literally both of the things Bulbazak just mentioned I noted when they happened and made comment on the scumminess of them.

Just saying.

But I guess people just become less scummy by dint of existing.

[Thor665]

Also, please define the difference between 'not knowing' about Eagle and 'not in the townbloc' with Zipper, Burn and I.
Because if you are just ruling out town reads than Eagle's placement in your tiers appears to make no sense.
What am I missing?

I went back into my iso just to note to myself all the additions to the Burn case I made on Day 2-3 (of which there are a fair few) and found this question that I realize was not answered.

I REALLY want to see this question answered. It is a good question and I want to hear the logic being used.

[Thor665]

The above is;

@notscience

By the by.

[Thor665]

You couldn't do this yourself? You had to let Bulba do all the dirty work?

I don't even understand what you think you mean by that.
He responded to your guys posts before I even logged in, so it wasn't like I could have responded first.
And as far as adding to the case, multiple times I said stuff about it before Bulbazak did, and sometimes I think i said stuff and he didn't at all.

So no actual occurrence seems to be following this odd trend that you seem to be saying is happening here.

If Burn flips scum - then you.

[Thor665]

Please make a post from you, including a case with all of burn's posts from Day 2+. I don't want Bulba to do it, or anybody else you manged to manipulate.

I have openly declared intent *not* to do this. That said, if you go and iso me through Day 2-3 you'll see that I did raise points about his play during those days. So go swim in that if you wish to.

Also, where exactly is this scumread coming from? Earlier you said "I need to look at Bald", then we undergo this series of exchanges, and now I'm scum for asking a case from you. You are explicitly refusing to provide good reasoning to be on the burn wagon.

I am not refusing that, i am refusing to do your odd pseudo part of the game case for reasons that make no sense request.
And, yes, I'm doing that.

Can someone please state intent to hammer on this scum, ty.

You're not likely to get much more support because your buddy already voted me to try to save his own sorry skin.

Just to clarify - you have a town read on Burn, right? Like, you find him townish? Because if you find both of us scummy I'd like to hear why I'm more scummy. And if you find him townish I'd like you to openly state it at this point considering how much you're trying to avoid his wagon.

[Thor665]

Also, please define the difference between 'not knowing' about Eagle and 'not in the townbloc' with Zipper, Burn and I.
Because if you are just ruling out town reads than Eagle's placement in your tiers appears to make no sense.
What am I missing?

I went back into my iso just to note to myself all the additions to the Burn case I made on Day 2-3 (of which there are a fair few) and found this question that I realize was not answered.

I REALLY want to see this question answered. It is a good question and I want to hear the logic being used.

Rephrase plox

The question seems really self-explanatory, but let's try this with baby steps;

1. You provide a list of reads.
2. You say you are town hunting, not scumhnting to get these reads.
3. You have some people in a scummy section of "not in the townbloc" I tend to presume they are there because you found no town energy.
4. This is supported because when i asked you about what they had done that was scummy you had indicated you were town hunting.
5. That said you have a 'not knowing' section as well.

I want to know what someone does to go from the 'not town bloc' section to the 'not knowing' section - because those two sections on a townhunting list don't seem to make sense to both exist, since people you don't know about should have stayed in the 'not townbloc' section.

What am I missing?

[Thor665]

blarggity-blarg!

So, your case on me is that I

1. Developed a scumread on Burn (that you understand) on Day 1.
2. Did not make a new case based only on his actions Day 2-3 (even though I did point out scummy things he did) because...apparently Day 1 scum cases weaken over time.
3. That Bulbazak leaping to answer questions you ask me makes me somehow scummy...because...I...control his mind or something?
4. And #3 also ignores that Bulbazak hasn't actually said much that's new and exciting about the Burn case, and about half of his answers are things I've already said/done in the game, but that you are too lazy to go through my iso to find.
5. That I am scummy for not being willing to do the work you are refusing to do.

Is that about right?
Because there's a reason I'm dismissive towards your press here.

Why do you think Burn is town? (hopefully with an answer that doesn't require me to be scum)

[Thor665]

Can you clarify what moved him out of the scum pile but failed to move him into the town pile?

[Thor665]

I don't accept that as an answer if it was meant to be one.

[Thor665]

I just realized I'm trying to explain my reads to scum

lol

You really find my request so odd and difficult to do?

[Thor665]

Can you describe the case on me that justifies you stating intent to hammer?

[Thor665]

*burn_209 - (Notscience), Bulbazak, Thor665
*1baldeagle1 -
*cxinlee - Kytoxid [2]
*Thor665 - cxinlee, 1baldeagle1, burn_209, Zipperflesh, (Notscience)

I also want to toss this up so people can look at it.
Because I want you to know what a scum driven wagon looks like.

[Thor665]

I'll claim after the following happens;

Cxinlee describes his case on me and states desire to see me dead.
Notscience describes his case on me and states desire to see me dead.

Also, if both could mention their read on Burn, that would also be good.

[Thor665]

I feel that way about you, so, no shocker.

I gave what it will take for me to claim. If you want to try to talk people into hammering me prior to that then go ahead and attempt that. Otherwise sit back and allow them to respond.

[Thor665]

Your vote is ruddy terrible.

1st was Zipper.
2nd was Burn.

Good luck town, though I have bad opinions about a number of your plays.

[Thor665]

Ha, snuck it in. I rule, and notscience sucks!

[Thor665]

Anyways, good game

I will admit the frustration in me wants to simply call it a 'competitive' game' not a 'good' one.

I'll take a breather and do my usual write-up reviews later when not feeling it so keenly though. The scum certainly played pretty well.

[Thor665]

Okay, so now I'm awake, not really badly hung-over, and ready to vent my spleen a little bit Which means it's time for...

Thor's Patented Wall o Reads & Blather!

This is a little thing I like to do post game as an IC in order to offer you a little review of the game. Now, these are just my opinions, so feel free to take them to heart as the dearest treasures ever...or to just shrug and go 'meh...dick' and ignore them fully. All I'm presenting is, from my perspective, what you, as a player, did well and/or need to work on doing better when moving forward in your mafiascum career. I won't always review everyone (generally speaking if you replaced out I figure you aren't coming back to read this) but, if you played in the game and I don't offer you a review and you'd like one, just ask, and I'll hook you up - I have enough blather for everyone

So, enough talk! Time for more talk!

Kytoxid

- First off, you were part of the general lurk and malise of the town players, and therefore get a slap on the wrist. To my mind you made a number of missteps this game, albeit most of them because you are still trying to learn the game. I did like how you noted that the notscience kill favored Zipper/Truffles and hurt Bald...I really wish you'd thought about that though. Also, I really didn't like how you (and a number of people) "liked" Zipper's softclaim. Here's a hint at why it was a bad claim - decide that he meant Doc, or JKer, or BP, then look at the claim and see which of those his comment supports. Hint: none of them) that makes it a very wide open claim, which means it confirms nothing. It doesn't prove him as scum but it hardly gives him any cred with his claim, what you need to do is look at who he is voting, how, and why, that's far more worthwhile info. I think you were wrong a lot in this game, and a lot of your pushes really bugged me, but I also think you managed to look fairly clearly town and also clearly were working quite hard at your scumhunting when you were here, which was nice to see. You will benefit heavily from some extra games under your belt to help you understand the difference between scum actions and just actions (like my so-called lack of explanation thing, wherein what your actual issue was my lack of freely offered information unless asked which is two different things) but I see a lot of things from you that look promising in a player.

Notscience

- I still want to club you about the head for the "sketch" thing. Seriously, that was bad...like, BAD. I still think you would be highly benefited from going and answering the question I challenged you with in the Dead QT - the wagon on me was actually, as you would say, super sketch, and that you didn't notice it being that bad is not a good thing. I will admit you are certainly in fine company for that, but let me note that literally both scum were voting me...that is not a good wagon for town when the entire scumteam is working to push it through, and you and every town who got on it needs to go back and read that wagon and look at how and why it was made, and then try to understand ways you could have noticed how bad it was. Other than that I found your play...mixed. As usual, you were town and were lurkish, and also you didn't add much a lot of the time when you did show up. This is especially aggravating because YOUR READS, OVERALL, WERE ACTUALLY PRETTY ACCURATE! So you had some good reads, but didn't discuss them much with others, and didn't try to help people understand them, and really just did your thing. That is not optimal, being town is a team game - you win with the town, not solo. It is important to get involved with your town reads, talk to them, try to understand their reads and get them to understand yours. If you and Bulba had talked to each other a bit more town probably could have steamrolled this.

BugKitteh

- In a world full of lurksacks, I felt you played the most overall town game as far as activity and generating discussion. You asked questions, answered them, and pressed for interplay. That is all quite solid and good stuff, keep doing that! I do think you missed a few obvious tells as regards Zipper's attitude towards Burn (seriously, look at how squirmy he got in conversation with you about lynching Burn first even though he said Burn was scum) Overall though your play was quite solid, you were maybe a bit too confident about stuff for bad reasons, but were painfully town in almost every post you made, so your only crime was being wrong 50% of the time, which isn't too painful for town, really.

Truffles

- Eh, you had a tough gig and were benefitted by all the lurking and derping of the town. I think you picked an excellent NK and I *loved* the Bald case you put together. Now, I'd like to think town should have noticed that you didn't do a Burn case, but such is 20/20. I guess work on the overall fake case making to be equal and other than that revel in a very nice setup.

Maria13

- Burn was unkind replacing out when and how he did, you were lynched because of him, not because of you. I don't really have enough evidence to draw too much of a conclusion or advice about your play. I personally would have done the distancing differently than you did, but, heck, it seemed to work for you, so what do I know anyway? I also did appreciate how you chose to go down swinging and not just roll over - you were an exemplary replace in.

burn_209

- The big thing for you to watch, I believe, is your hypocrisy. That's really what gelled me onto you as scum, you said things that it did not appear you could actually believe. One of my core advices for scum is to never make up scumtells - just use tells you would honestly use in any other game. most tells are kinda gakky anyway and it's all really about the moment, so never stretch to get into a 'strategic' position. It usually doesn't pay off.

1baldeagle1

- I'm very conflicted on you, because I *loved* your play during the early half of the game,a nd then totally *loathed* it later, and functionally my loathing was what put you into the Zipper/Bald question, because up till then if I'd died it would have been a Zipper lynch and huzzah, and instead I left a bunch of newbie town to sort through you. First off, you should have tried to be more active in both your defense and in explaining why Truffles was scum. Scum win when town stop fighting, and your lack of presence (amongst many other town players) was not optimal. Second off, the one that really frustrates me, was your attack on me for my meta-defense...when I had been meta-attacked. I feel like you had read somewhere "meta-defense = teh scumz!" and then just applied that as a solid truth and then also applied it blindly, both of those being incorrect thoughts. If I am attacked for my meta I have literally only two options - to ignore it or to meta-defend. I have no idea why you decided that town would only ignore it...nor do I understand how, when I pointed this out, why you refused to discuss your conclusions of why you had decided that. That is why I started to peg you as scum, because it didn't seem like you cared what my alignment was, and that's a pretty big scumtell and what flipped me on your slot. You should be able to discuss and consider your own cases - take a look at kytox (if I remember right) who made that meta attack and then eventually decided he was wrong and I was right. He didn't decide I was town, but he did decide his reason for suspecting me was bad and changed tacks. That's a healthy town response, blindly biting down due to...whatever made you bite down (I presume it was a desire to be proven "right" but it could have been a number of things, I dunno which) was not a healthy way to make sure your case had any merit at all. I do overall like your posting style, and like I said for the first chunk of the game I thought you were playing nicely pro-town, so you do have a solid base, but the bearing down in the face of reality thing is dangerous, I should know, I still battle that habit, but it's not pro-town, so be aware that it's in you.

Bulbazak

- Dude, you were like a breath of fresh air to this game, a player who was fairly obv. town and also saw how bad the stuff on me was and also how right I was in what I was saying. You probably should have been more active (story of this game for the town players) but otherwise were solid. You were thought of as town, you had good scumspects, and you were NKed because you were a threat - that's how you want to play

Sakura Hana

- For the record, I think this is yet another game I read you right and you read me wrong Ah, overall I thought your play was...acceptable. You and I already discussed the hammer thing, and outside of that I thought you played fine and rather disagreed with the wagon on you. I think people voted you for silly reasons in their own heads rather than decent scumtells. I'll agree I think you were also out in looneyfield with your cases and reasoning, but you hardly stand alone in this town for that. I wished you'd lasted a bit longer because I would have been bemused to get to play with you while I had a town read, and also it might have avoided your 'Thor iz scumz!' case that the scum were ably to awkwardly sheep while it had no basis in reality while the rest of town sort of nodded, which was annoying to me to no end But, overall, a decent performance, I know you can play better than this and hope you are able to tap that more often, but a lot of what went bad for you here was other people having iffy reads, not anything you actually did that was scummy. Just, y'know, don't self-hammer as town.


========================================

And those are my thoughts.

If you have any questions about them, or questions about the game, or want to know why I did or thought something, or want my opinion of something specific you did, or want me to expand on anything, or have any other mafia (or sexy beard) releated questions for me - feel free to ask. I'm still your IC and have been informed that I'm supposed to be helpful

For all of you who had this as a first outing I hope you learned a bit more and are interested in trying again. This is an excellent game, and there are many levels to it you haven't even begun to plumb.

[Thor665]

Hey, if you learn from it no worries on my end.

The important thing is just about understanding why you did what you did, and whether it was overall a good line of thought or a bad one. If it's good (even if wrong) keep doing it, if it was bad (even if right) then you need to understand it enough to change it to be better next time. If you can't describe why people are voting a wagon then, even if you agree with the wagon, you should still try to get that info out of them for later analysis. Even if I had flipped scum it would have been good info to have because...y'know, what were their reasons? Were they bussing me, or were they just town? You would have a hard time telling without knowing their reasoning *then*, you don't want it later, you want it at the moment.

[Thor665]

Oh- Oh- Thor, do me

You were a frustrating slot to me because you looked pretty town, but seemed utterly unwilling to try to understand the Burn case even though you asked for it (and received it...) multiple times. I think the biggest issue with us was one of poor communication, and at least on my end I eventually gave up trying because I couldn't figure out where the breakdown was. I thought I had laid the case out for you quite clearly, and yet you kept asking for it for some reason...I'll be curious as to your own thoughts on that one.

As far as the rest of your play, I clearly think your Burn=Town case was pretty bad, though at least you explained it, and you were a little blind on Sakura (when someone asks you the case on her and your answer is 'my entire iso' that is probably a tunnel case, not a good case). That said, your play was still overall quite townish. You had stances, you generally were willing to explain them clearly, and you were painfully obvious in your desire to debate and question conclusions, all of which is solid, solid, pro-town stuff. Heck, by Day 3 your reads were starting to narrow down in good ways and most of your reads were pretty accurate. I'd say if you can avoid mental tunnels (you should always be able to explain the case you have and present it in words) and also if you can figure out the miscommunication thing with me (why did you keep asking me for my Burn case...like, literally the 1st or 2nd thing you asked of me was for the case, and I gave it to you, and then you just kept asking constantly every time I wanted to lynch Burn) it would tighten up your game. A lot of your other play is already quite good and doesn't need much help...besides avoiding needing replacement

Interesting that town didn't push no-lynch at 4 player lylo too.

The scumpool was down to two players - if they had no lynched one of the obv. town players would have been NKed and they would have been in the exact same situation with no new info.

The only time a 4p Lylo is worth no lynching on is if you have 4 scumspects, or no generally agreed upon town read, or have some interesting PR interactions still possible (like a claimed Doc you're not sure is the Doc or something)

I actually usually advocate avoiding the no lynch in that setup, because I think it's just being lazy and dumb most of the time. I do admit I am in the strategic minority when it comes to that, but I think the evidence is clearly in support of my position. It's bizzare how many times I see a 4p lylo go something like "Well, scum is either X or Y...thank gawd no one suspects Z...let's no lynch because 4p lylo!....oh, Z is dead and was town...well, scum is either X or Y and now quickhammers from scum are possible and we don't have Z for input anymore, huzzah, what a pro-town strategy!"

[Thor665]

Yeah, I think the biggest issue with that strategy is the number of people who just follow it blindly. Like with so many things in this game, there are few absolutes, and the individual situation should be assessed.

[Thor665]

From memory I felt like the case on burn was boiling down to double standards, so was really looking to find just what nuances of the thinking you felt were more likely scum than not.

There was no double standard.
Let's look at this again;

Here I am answering your question of what the case is;

Okay, but...I'm actually confused as to your inability to see where I was getting at considering you think his 'brain to paper' reaction is all swell (and, indeed, that's the crux of his defense) Allow me to spell it out even more slowly.

1. He understands that reads can change and are not set in stone.
2. He understands that pressure reads exist.
3. He understands that pressuring people is a pro-town thing.
4. He used an answer that you liked that can be summed up as "because it's what I thought, so I shared it with people!"
5. He had no issue with my pressure on Daughter

and...

He thought it was sloppy and bad of me to announce that I'd be willing to lynch him.


Do you notice the disconnect now?

You reply that you basically think he had no strategy behind doing that (something I never claimed he did) and decided, basically, that him contradicting himself was a towntell because scum would, presumably, be more careful.

I then say that you appear to understand my case and just disagree with it, so why ask me about it?
You return with this clunker of, basically, 'Thor is being pro-town so he's possibly scum'

To the second, Post 74 makes your intentions slightly clearer (if retroactively) but I wouldn't presume to put anything past you as scum, including extremely pro-town Day 1 play driving town out of RVS which inadvertently ends in a speedlynch.

It dies down for a while with you pushing Gale/Sakura and me pushing Burn more. You then ask this;

If you have the time, I'd be interested in your case on burn, if you feel strongly about it.

Which...is a case I'd told you about already, and you had said you understood.
I repeat the case to you.

You express willingness to lynch Sakura or Burn.

The next day Burn is town for you for reasons of...not sure.
You occasionally kind of poke at me to "update my case" as though, somehow, as a case becomes older it loses veracity.
You manage to spot that Zipper is iffy and you and I more or less find common ground trying to get him dead though Bald keeps distracting you (in your defense, Bald was trying really hard to be distracting)
You then replace out.

That was pretty much it.

You couldn't particularly explain your Burn=town case. (the best you got was he was 'open' and had committed a special town tell of yours)
I explained my case to you multiple times.
You never told me you saw a double standard there, and if you had I would have crushed that thought.
Like I said, it really felt like we were having issues communicating even though I had you as town and, at least on Day 2, you seemed to have the same read on me.

[Thor665]

It's what they pay me the bigs bucks for.

...though now that you mention it I'm not sure I've seen a check yet.