Open 634: Sharing is Caring (Game Over)

[SirCakez]

VOTE: Alexcellent
An excellent RVS vote

[SirCakez]

VI = Village Idiot = bad town player

???

[SirCakez]

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

VOTE: shotty

calling me a VI implies that you know I am town........ can you explain how you know that?

I said VI not TI. Scum live in the village too. Also believe it or not you don't become any less of an idiot just because you are scum.

VI is basically synonymous with bad town. This looks terrible.

[SirCakez]

Yes that was a name pun, not actually a serious vote Max.

[SirCakez]

Putting someone at L-3 isn't antitown. That's not going to hammer unless someone is trying to hammer it.

[SirCakez]

RVS wagons form all the time, not indicative.

[SirCakez]

Building wagons is good for the game. Why are people trying to shoot them down?

[SirCakez]

I thought I posted my reads earlier but apparently not :/
Leaning scum on Shotty, Kurio, Blacle
Leaning town on Anen, Alex, Tex
Haven't read enough of others yet

I see a Kuroi vote. Wagon time
VOTE: Kuroi

[SirCakez]

Your entire "Texcat is scum for putting someone at L-3" push sucks
Despite that push, you only have Tex as nullscum?

[SirCakez]

It's a large part of it, yeah.

[SirCakez]

I like Clumsy's wall actually. I tend to townread walls too much but that one felt genuine.
On the contrary, really don't like Blacle's Anen vote. Liking Anen's post so far, and his reasoning for the vote is "I made myself look scummy to see if scum would go for me." Like wtf, if you're being scummy on purpose then obviously people will scumread you for it.

[SirCakez]

I like Clumsy's wall actually. I tend to townread walls too much but that one felt genuine.
On the contrary, really don't like Blacle's Anen vote. Liking Anen's post so far, and his reasoning for the vote is "I made myself look scummy to see if scum would go for me." Like wtf, if you're being scummy on purpose then obviously people will scumread you for it.

The point of that is to seperate those you scum read you and those who acted opportunistic.

What would the difference even be for that?

[SirCakez]

Don't drink and mafia unless your a professional. If you can't see it masquerade I'm just going to add you to the people who have no memory of what has been posted. That being said I catch all "mistakes" and count them as Lies. I can cloak and dagger all I want. It helps me get reads and I am town and gettting reads is all I can do so If I get lynched for playing differently than you then so be it. Your just not mature enough to read intent.

The best you could hope to pin on me at this point is "sewing confusion." Except I am not the traps are obvious and only scum would entertain them because scum is looking to push a myslynch while town is looking to actually catch scum. In a sense I am the bait. The bait is obvious. And scum cannot and will not resist me. Unless scum is better than I thought. And if thats the case I already in over my head. I have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

VOTE: Wgeurts

Not scumhunting. General Fence sitting. Pushing a lynch on me for anyreason but, "BW exhibits scum intent." This vote is serious.

Yeah this is absolutely ridiculous.
VOTE: BlacleWorks

[SirCakez]

No yeah I definitely think wgeurts is town here, this reminds me of how he was in Borderlands. And all of Blacle's scum reads are "lol whoever voted me".

[SirCakez]

Someone just give intent to get the claim

[SirCakez]

UNVOTE:
Urgh probably legit then. I'm not Vig.
Still think wgeurts is town

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik
going back to this. His contributions have been terrible.

Clumsy why do you think "wgeurts is starting to look like scum"?

[SirCakez]

Damn you're right, I felt like I'd been posting more then that.
Regarding the coasting people - I'd put Persivul in that list. He's been noticeably quiet.

[SirCakez]

Damn you're right, I felt like I'd been posting more then that.
Regarding the coasting people - I'd put Persivul in that list. He's been noticeably quiet.

Last week my cat died, my daughter had surgery, and I was working 12 hour days. Check any of my games, I was noticeably quiet in all of them.

O
Sorry about that

Regarding the Cop - someone nullish and hard to read would be a better target then the top poster IMO.
Blacle please stop arguing that your "scum will jump on me if I play scummy!" plan was good because it wasn't.

[SirCakez]

Wgeurts who are your other scumreads?
Why is Shotty being allowed to coast like this?

[SirCakez]

Your posts are contributing very little. You were sitting on your RVS vote until this morning, like seriously.

[SirCakez]

Why can't I get this shotty wagon going jeez
Texcat wagon stinks.

[SirCakez]

I was giving Persivul some slack since he said he had a lot of stuff going on irl but that instant sheep seems really questionable.

[SirCakez]

Persivul why is your ISO completely devoid of any analysis other then on wguerts?

[SirCakez]

Persivul's KT vote also sucks.
Like what is that, he's going to be replaced in like a day and you know how he is.

[SirCakez]

Baaaaaah

[SirCakez]

Yeah man!

[SirCakez]

Wgeurts we're not lynching the Vig :/
Persivul - you literally went from posting a miniwall about KT to voting wgeurts in 3 posts. What's up there?

[SirCakez]

Not much longer don't worry

[SirCakez]

Oh god the AtE I'm falling for it help
This is serious q.q AtE always gets me

[SirCakez]

A Shotty lynch is good though

[SirCakez]

Kuroi stop please that's not playing against your win condition.
Why did you make a wall about your scumread on wgeurts but not vote him?

[SirCakez]

Wgeurts why not?
TeX it's really obvious if you read the game. His only contributions are defending himself whenever someone accuses him, no scumhunting at all.

[SirCakez]

Masq is a good vig shot yo

[SirCakez]

Wgeurts why not?
TeX it's really obvious if you read the game. His only contributions are defending himself whenever someone accuses him, no scumhunting at all.

One that's not true and two I've been under constant fire with no real reasons the whole game. Once again you give no evidence for your claims you just say welp he deffended himself must be scum.

You're doing it with this post rofl
You're literally not scumhunting at all

[SirCakez]

can nobody hammer until KT gets replaced anyway please?

shotty and pers are both fairly strong town-reads at the moment.

Why? Shotty is strong scum for me obviously and Pers is nullish town, not very strong.

[SirCakez]

We have a little over a day, idk if we can get the votes for Masq.

[SirCakez]

Ya Max we know Masq's voting history is terrible but no time to switch the wagon to him. Good vig shot though.

[SirCakez]

Again you say this but.you have no reasons. You vote me andnput me L1 because me reads suck? That sounds like an omgus to me, also at least I'm giving read lists and reasons.

Posts like these are literally the only thing you're contributing. Where are these "readslist"?

[SirCakez]

Where are "attacking people"? I'm seeing no pushes from you.

[SirCakez]

If he's actually town I'm going to be pissed because he made zero effort to scumhunt all day.

[SirCakez]

VOTE: Masquerade
Obvious reasons

[SirCakez]

haven't put together a readslist yet and think I should

(Blacle)
(Anen, Persivul)
(Maxous, texcat, chilledtea, Clumsy)
(wgeurts, Kuroi)
(Masquerade)

[SirCakez]

Someone give intent on Masq and get a claim pls

[SirCakez]

[SirCakez]

haven't put together a readslist yet and think I should

(Blacle)
(Anen, Persivul)
(Maxous, texcat, chilledtea, Clumsy)
(wgeurts, Kuroi)
(Masquerade)

You've thought of me as scum more than once this game, but I don't believe you've given me a reason why.

Right now, it's because you avoided the shotty wagon completely and rode his counterwagon the whole time.

[SirCakez]

UNVOTE: since no CC obviously
Still was terrible play from Masq

[SirCakez]

Well then
VOTE: Kuroi
Agree with the above + listed reasons earlier

[SirCakez]

Wait wgeurts hasn't come in yet whoops. If he's the JK I'll move back asap.

[SirCakez]

Why shoot Chilled over wgeurts?

[SirCakez]

What does it mean that I am the only one that Clumsy left off his list?

I've got a town lean on Chilled, which just got confirmed by Blade wanting to shoot him. Don't do it, Blade!

How does Blacle wanting to shoot chilled = confirming his as town?

[SirCakez]

I can't interpret sarcasm :/

[SirCakez]

Anen join us on Kuroi for victory!

[SirCakez]

Blacle did you actually read the mechanics of this game?
Let's finish off Kuroi now then lynch his buddy Wgeurts tomorrow.

[SirCakez]

Can we please get rid of Kuroi who just admitted he isn't even reading the game?

[SirCakez]

You said you haven't read the thread since before the weekend = not reading the game. I didn't make up anything.

[SirCakez]

Even if you did scum, how did you miss that JK claim? It was the topic of discussion for multiple pages.

[SirCakez]

I then said I skimmed the game since. The message behind my words for "not reading the game" is that I forgot who was the claimed for the power role.

You said you skimmed the game since???

[SirCakez]

Oh I thought it was this weekend for some reason.
Them how the heck did you forget who claimed JK?

[SirCakez]

Ugh fine
VOTE: wgeurts
Someone else has to give intent for this

[SirCakez]

wgeurtz will mostly flip town though. If you guys want I will hammer.

"Scummy" post. All I said was I am town reading him, that's all. But he is inactive, if you guys don't want to go for kuroi then that leaves little choice. Kuroi and wger are the only ones not voting, I guess kuroi might hammer wgeur himself.

VOTE: wgeurtz

There, hammered.

Wtf is this progression

[SirCakez]

I'm fine with the hammer, its how you went "ugh I'm townreading wgeurts but I'll hammer anyway!" that reads bad to me.

[SirCakez]

Ugh back to this
VOTE: Kuroi

[SirCakez]

You realize the Cop and/or JK might have just also tried to use thri ability at the same time, causing a failure?

[SirCakez]

Presumably the Cop used a shot night 1 and we know you and Masq used shots night 1, so there was probably only one shot available...

[SirCakez]

Is the shot from Masq dying added before other night actions are resolved?

[SirCakez]

My lynch pool today was going to be (Max, Chilled, Clumsy) but I think Ranger's right that that was a crumb clear. I remember thinking it was a bizarre townread at the time, makes much more sense if she had a clear on him.
So then yeah Max or Clumsy is fine for the lynch today.

[SirCakez]

I could see Persivul as a busser on Shotty. He only really started pressuring Shotty after he came under a lot of pressure on himself.
Maybe Max/Persivul?

[SirCakez]

I posted why Shotty was scum like three times and it went ignored consistently until the end. If you seriously wanted a case to see why he was scum then you were either not reading the game or scum.

[SirCakez]

Anen I'm not ruling him out, I just saw the Max/Persivul pairing more likely then, for example, Clumsy/Persivul or Clumsy/Max from the VCA you did.

[SirCakez]

I haven't received much pressure, true.
I really think Anen is town here though and Max's case on him doesn't read well to me at all

Clumsy what are the "good points" of the wall?

[SirCakez]

I am very sure Anen is town here, especially after these last few posts. Max's defense is just making me more confident that Anen's right here.

[SirCakez]

Persivul when you get here talk to us about Max and Anen mainly.

[SirCakez]

And Max?

[SirCakez]

I like that hammer from Persivul if Max flips scum, if Max flips town then not so much.

[SirCakez]

Thank you!

[SirCakez]

Highly doubt Anen is scum, Max's case on Anen yesterday felt far too manipulative and dedicated to be on a fellow scum buddy. And I've had a very strong townread on him all game.
Unless Tex majorly screwed up somehow then chilled is town.
So that leaves me with Persivul, who makes a lot of sense as a Shotty buddy like I said earlier.

I could see Persivul as a busser on Shotty. He only really started pressuring Shotty after he came under a lot of pressure on himself.
Maybe Max/Persivul?

[SirCakez]

Wgeurts we're not lynching the Vig :/
Persivul - you literally went from posting a miniwall about KT to voting wgeurts in 3 posts. What's up there?

It's pretty fucking obvious - a good player came in and voted gurts, making a wagon I had deemed not viable now seem possible.

So you weren't going to vote for him because you thought he was scum, but when opportunity struck you jumped right on? It is obvious you are scum.

Just lynch me. I have never seen so much stupidity in a single game.

When I flip green, read this game in which I was scum and wguerts was town:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=62219

and ask yourself,

why did wgeurts think this was persival's scum game?

I don't know if gurts is scum trying to run the town, or town trying to be a leader and not knowing WTF he's doing. Either way, he's going to lead town to a loss. When I flip, note that his two big pushes were both town. Then decide whether you think he's scummy and you want to lynch him, or he's incompetent town, and you just want to ignore his reads (or perhaps do the exact opposite of his reads).

will you WAGON shotty with me, wgeursts?

Eh, why not?
VOTE: drmyshottyizsik
That name is going to be a pain with the automatic votecount lol

All 3 scum in one post???

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

Official Vote Count

Persivul

(4): texcat, wgeurts, drmyshottyizsik, KuroiXHF

drmyshottyizsik

(3): SirCakez, Aneninen, Persivul

wgeurts

(2): BlacleWorks, Clumsy

texcat

(2): Maxous, KainTepes

Masquerade

(1): Alexcellent

Not Voting

(1): Masquerade

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-04-12 01:00:37)

You jumped on Shotty only when he became your counterwagon, and made little effort to push him before. The first vote was apparently a "flip off to wgeurts" like you said yourself.

[SirCakez]

Framer isn't better then Rolecop?
And yes that's my theory. It was an easy bus and Shotty was clearly going down within a day or two, but there was next to no pushing there until the counterwagon formed.

[SirCakez]

Are you seriously pushing me saying urgh as a scum tell lmao

[SirCakez]

If Anen is scum and orchestrated that whole thing with Max then props to him. I really, really doubt it though.

[SirCakez]

So your entire case for me being scum is that I said urgh?

[SirCakez]

I'll push on buddies all the time (see Borderlands where I scumread my buddy Beeboy basically the whole game) but I don't like actually pushing them through to a lynch. It's stupid to kill off buddies for "towncred" when you could work more on building rapport with town and getting mislynches instead.
Plus bussing makes it much harder to win in endgame.

[SirCakez]

I didn't expect Blacle to quick hammer and I don't think anyone else did either.
The fact you're trying to use the ugh/,urgh thing as some sort of scum-indicative thing is terribly scummy.

[SirCakez]

Because Blacle couldn't have quickhammered by himself at L-2? Max was the one to put Kuroi to L-1 and we all know Max's flip.

I say ugh/argh/etc as both alignments all the time. I could go dig up quotes of it but it would be a waste of time.

[SirCakez]

Because wgeurts started trying to lynch Blacle, the confirmed Vig, and then disappeared for all of Day 2

[SirCakez]

VOTE: Blacle

I'm really sick of people declaring themselves conftown, even if they're joking.

VOTE: Kuroi

VOTE: texcat

No JK should def be protecting the confirmed town lol

We can't keep him alive long enough to make a difference, unless you're proposing we don't use any of our actions for cop investigations. We just protect one wild conftown every night and gain no new information from our PRs.

VOTE: wgeurts

Maxous. Wgeurts is the only one who pushed for my lynch and it was indeed a terrible push. I honestly don't know how I got to L-1. Perhaps its a matter of insecurity that lead those people to be lead astray. I have to come realize that being sure of yourself in this game tends to bother some individuals.
I'm picking up what your putting down. However, I happen to think that Wgeurts is actually scum and tried to push a scum myslynch on what appeared to be a weak player(me). I think your vote would be better on Wgeurts than anything else. Wgeurts flip will give you more traction for your push on Texcat if he flips town, and it wont damage your traction if Wgeurts flips scum.
Do you agree?

D1 scum generally don't lead a lynch wagon right from the start. They wait to see how things develop and help push a wagon that's already started. If you're right that he's the only one who pushed you, that's townie for D1.

VOTE: texcat

VOTE: Masquerade

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

Just ran across this from gurts in the discussion forum:

People should stop trying to act townie intentionally as town, due to that a meta can form with "how town should act" which scum players of a certain level can easily replicate as their scum-game. People should just play as they do naturally. That way people are forced to look genuine as scum which is harder and not just meet a set of standards.

Why aren't you following your own advice? You expect people to do certain things you consider townie even if they don't feel like doing it naturally.

VOTE: wgeurts

BW is now conftown. It's doubtful his entire wagon is town. The BW L-1 is at post 226. The texcat is at 318. That's way too fast, so there's most likely scum on there too. The two wagons have Alex and Kain in common. Alex had scum read both BW and texcat as early as 120, so his presence isn't troubling. Kain's first and only reference to texcat was the vote.
VOTE: KainTepes

Also BW if you shoot me, we policy lynch you and then the town loses you are solely responsible. If you want to win don't be an idiot.

Fear mongering. Suggesting a PL on a PR. What would professor guerts say about such play? Pretty sure he'd call it scummy.

VOTE: wgeurts

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

Like to compare
Here's Persivul's voting history day 1
Guy went literally everywhere but the kitchen sink with his votes, including voting all three PRs and both mislynches of Day 2/3 at some point.

[SirCakez]

Guilty as charged! Town is motivated to go literally everywhere early in the game to form reads. Scum don't have that motivation, which is why voteparking is considered scummy.

No, it reads to me like trying to force a wagon through anywhere you can before ending up having to settle for Shotty when you became a leading wagon and needed to take pressure off yourself.

[SirCakez]

I'll go quote digging later -_-

[SirCakez]

No, it reads to me like trying to force a wagon through anywhere you can

In my experience, scum don't try to force wagons through anywhere they can on D1. They apply minimal pressure and wait to see what develops.

before ending up having to settle for Shotty when you became a leading wagon and needed to take pressure off yourself.

Again, it's ridiculous - in general, and for my scum game specifically - to theorize that I'm scum who needed a counter wagon...

and I went to a scum buddy for the CW

. CWs to scum are town. I was the CW to shotty, who was scum. That makes me town.

And you sure were putting minimal pressure down with those naked votes everywhere

I went over this earlier. Shotty was clearly going down within a day or two, you were still savable, no other wagon was viable when you were the leading wagon. Makes the most sense to start bussing there. This is supported by your complete lack of pushing Shotty before (aside from your "flip off wgeurts" vote).

[SirCakez]

Neither of your votes on scum looked like serious bussing. Max was clearly the lynch for the day as was Shotty. You weren't an actual strong pusher on either, and you clearly attempted to avoid voting Shotty aside from your joke vote for an extended period of time.

[SirCakez]

Whoops that was my bad. Max was 100% the lynch for the day though.
About bussing - you yourself admitted you have bussed as scum before. Just because you don't do it often doesn't give you this big clear and you're acting like it does.

[SirCakez]

Whoops that was my bad.

That happens when you're just making it up as you go.

Max was 100% the lynch for the day though.

So why didn't you vote him?

Also, why did you say that I'd look good if Max flips scum? It was apparently a lie, as now you're pushing me.

About bussing - you yourself admitted you have bussed as scum before. Just because you don't do it often doesn't give you this big clear and you're acting like it does.

If someone looks at my links and reviews my scum games, then yes, it should give me a big clear.

And you're not?

Because I didn't want to quick hammer?
I thought it was Clumsy before you but that was wrong obviously.

???
You said you've bussed before, you don't have a big clear.

[SirCakez]

All right, I am here. I will be re-reading from day 2 since so little happened from that time.

Sir Cakes, I want to know your opinion on anen.

I think he's almost assuredly town from the way Max pushed him.

[SirCakez]

Sooooo, an unrelated question to both cakes and pers. Would you guys consider yourselves good at LYLO/MYLO as town?

I rarely make it to LyLo/MyLo as town actually, so this is unusual for me.
The one time I remember being town in LyLo in a finished game was Open 623 where I was the mislynch for the scum win.

[SirCakez]

I already said I didn't think Blacle would quick hammer and apparently neither did Tex or Clumsy

[SirCakez]

*facepalm*

Anen vs Max yesterday was clearly not scum vs scum Chilled. I'm very confident Anen is town.

[SirCakez]

I've talked about the leaving my vote on Kuroi thing Day 3 twice now. No one expected Blacle to quick hammer, it's that simple.

[SirCakez]

Oh I just found a game where I said urgh as town that Persivul conveniently missed
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... h#p7655582
So there ya go
Also I said it in a marathon game as town as well but Persivul admitted he wasn't counting that at least

[SirCakez]

I can look at the Persivul game when I get home Anen but be forewarned I'll probably be conf biased when I look through.

[SirCakez]

Oh boy this is gonna be fun
Right off the bat: Persivul made literally 0 mention of any of this until today. I was a townread of his for my Shotty push until today as a matter of fact, suspect in itself.
Now

Spoiler:

Looking at cakez' ISO:

55 - starts the shotty push on a weak pretext - whether VI specifically refers to town or is just a way of calling someone stupid

This was the third page. Push reasonings aren't going to be very solid.

137 sounds forced - "I thought I posted my reads earlier but apparently not." It's only his 8th post and the 137th post overall - why would you think you've already posted a reads list? How can you not remember whether you did so or not in the previous 7 posts?

Because I was playing (and still am tbh) in like 8 games at the time and this one wasn't my top priority.

186 - interaction with shotty is bad

"bad"
Best reasoning 2016

205 - switched to BW becuase "Yeah this is absolutely ridiculous," then blatant rolefishing in 231 - "Someone just give intent to get the claim."

His case on wgeurts was awful. It basically summed up to OMGUS.
And then he was sitting at L-1 and likely going to be lynched yet was refusing to claim. Getting a claim there isn't rolefishing?
And to top it off, YOU were the one to give intent and try to get the claim in 230 and 233

258 - with claim in hand he moves back to shotty.

Yeah I don't like to continue pushing confirmed town.

265 - says that I've been "noticeably quiet." Prior to that he had 16 posts, I had 13 - not much of a difference, shows he's not really paying attention to the thread.

See above

293 - gives suggestions on the cop target to make it easier for the framer to get a hit

Suggesting Cop targets isn't a scumtell?

311 - "Why is Shotty being allowed to coast like this?" As we've discussed, bussing is most effective if you get credit for pushing the wagon. But, he doesn't have a real case to push, so we get general statements like this.

I did talk about my reasoning for pushing Shotty more then once. See 563, 600 and 612.

313 - 314 - 315 - These are horrible in hindsight. Cakez wants a shotty wagon, but all he can come up with for a reason is that shotty isn't contributing.

See above + not contributing is a pretty good reason to wagon someone.

354 - He can't come up with a good reason to push shotty, but he wants that town cred when shotty eventually flips, hence another general complaint as in 311 - "Why can't I get this shotty wagon going jeez"

See above + this was a valid complaint, the wagon was very difficult to get started.

General comment - most of his posts are one or two lines.

You've played with me before as town (Evolution Mafia), you know this is my playstyle and trying to push it as a scumtell is misrepping.

489 - "A Shotty lynch is good though" - Like 354 and 311, he doesn't have a case on shotty, but it's like he knows a shotty lynch is going through, knows shotty is scum, and wants the town cred for it.

See above

546 - asks for a vig shot on Masq without reason given

This should have been SUPER obvious. There's a reason Masq was wagoned immediately day 2.

563 - more bad interaction with shotty

"bad"
Still not good reasoning

564 - this one's really bad - "Shotty is strong scum for me obviously" - why strong scum? You keep telling us what a great lynch he is, but your only arguments are that he's not active enough, and the VI thing that you dropped a long time ago. But then he goes on to say, "Pers is nullish town, not very strong." But he previously said about me:
359 - "I was giving Persivul some slack since he said he had a lot of stuff going on irl but that instant sheep seems really questionable."
425 - "Persivul why is your ISO completely devoid of any analysis other then on wguerts?"
447 - "Persivul's KT vote also sucks."
473 - "Persivul - you literally went from posting a miniwall about KT to voting wgeurts in 3 posts. What's up there?"
He makes more points against me in that span than he ever does on shotty...but it's still "A shotty lynch is good" in 489, and he reads shotty as strong scum, while I'm nullish town. This is a huge red flag that cakez was scum knowingly bussing.

Grouping this all together.
The reason I had you as nullish town at the time was because you stated you had IRL issues going on, which gives you somewhat of a pass as compared to Shotty who had no excuse, + you were actually scumhunting, although haphazardly, at the least unlike shotty.
And once again see the above posts where I made my points on Shotty

So tl;dr misrep, hypocrisy and only bringing up these "points" against me when he has nowhere else left to go

[SirCakez]

Anen I didn't respond to your ISO because it was mostly commentary and not faked analysis intended to misrep like Persivul's "ISO".

[SirCakez]

Good point
VOTE: Persivul

[SirCakez]

Yeah I should have voted earlier, that's a reasonable paranoia. It would have been up to Anen either way though, lynch doesn't go through without him on it.

[SirCakez]

Of course

[SirCakez]

I'm going to go through the rest of Persivul's misrep ISO when I get home, not ignoring it fyi

[SirCakez]

haven't put together a readslist yet and think I should

(Blacle)
(Anen, Persivul)
(Maxous, texcat, chilledtea, Clumsy)
(wgeurts, Kuroi)
(Masquerade)

Masq, wgeurts, texcat and Kuroi were all dead so my null pool turned into my scum pool.
Nice try.

[SirCakez]

We could pass the night but presumably Pers will just kill Chilled. Better to have two confirmed town then one.

[SirCakez]

Current reads:

BlacleWorks - conftown due to unCC'd claim

Town

Aneninen
SirCakez

Lean town

Alexcellent

Null/Need to sort

Maxous
KuroiXHF
Clumsy

Null-scum

KainTepes
Masquerade

Scum

wgeurts
drmyshottyizsik
texcat

And that accusation is just awful because you too made 0 mention of a scumread on Max until Day 4, and you also had Max "safely in your null reads".
You're trying to frame things as scummy that you did yourself.

[SirCakez]

Basically yes since I had a pretty strong townread on Anen, a slight townread on you at the time that got readjusted later and Ranger was conf town. Left me with that null pool from POE.

[SirCakez]

Alternatively you just kill Chilled who is pressuring you much more then Anen and have a much easier win in 3p LyLo with Anen as Anen is questioning himself on me.

[SirCakez]

Yo I'll be here in about two hours as I'm currently stuck on the worlds worst service.
I see Persivul has thrown out a bunch of posts so will deal with them then.

[SirCakez]

Alternatively you just kill Chilled who is pressuring you much more then Anen and have a much easier win in 3p LyLo with Anen as Anen is questioning himself on me.

A chilled kill would be NAI for me, as it's to my benefit but also the logical play as he's the conftown.

There would be no reason for me to kill Anen.

First off Anen is confirmed town so that's false
A Chilled kill would 100% point to you. He's the one who has been focused on you consistently while Anen is reevaluating.

[SirCakez]

Anen I didn't respond to your ISO because it was mostly commentary and not faked analysis intended to misrep like Persivul's "ISO".

Whut?!

Cakes why are you not voting pers if you are town reading anen?

Good point
VOTE: Persivul

Paranoia is shared.

My problem is. Persivul doesn't look more town than he did. SirCakez looks more scum than he did.

A lot of the ISO was things like, "moving back and forth between Blade and Shotty" for example. I could go through the ISO if you think it would help.

[SirCakez]

Let's see...you just said that in a me-you-cakez lylo you would lynch me. Anen is at least somewhat conflicted. So, yes, cakez would now obviously kill anen.

And this goes back and contradicts what he just said earlier about the Chilled kill being NAI. If I would "obviously kill Anen" then a kill on Chilled would automatically point to Persivul.

[SirCakez]

Oh wow.

unvote : persivul

Give me a reason then. I am all ears as to why cakes is scum.

Check my ISO analysis of him. There's plenty of reasons there. You just haven't listened.

Your reasons are terrible and I outlined how they all stunk.

[SirCakez]

There is one hundred things that make me suspicious of you, and it isn't like cakes just coasted along, his activity throughout the game actually made sense.

Now that we know that one of us bussed shotty, show me how cakez' push on shotty makes sense.

How does it not?
He was coasting the whole day, no scumhunting, had terrible reactions to being pushed by me.
Your push on him was far worse. You hopped on and developed a scumread on Shotty with little reasoning behind it.

[SirCakez]

Pers's conversation with me feels town.

Cakes has been reluctant to have a conversation and do anything drastic. I really don't like that. Him not voting pers felt like he was waiting for anen to follow through as well.

This game is not easy, I think I might have said this a 100 times already.

I am completely open to having a conversation, I've already had several with Persivul in particular. What do you want to discuss?

[SirCakez]

Oh boy this is gonna be fun
Right off the bat: Persivul made literally 0 mention of any of this until today. I was a townread of his for my Shotty push until today as a matter of fact, suspect in itself.
Now

Spoiler:

Looking at cakez' ISO:

55 - starts the shotty push on a weak pretext - whether VI specifically refers to town or is just a way of calling someone stupid

This was the third page. Push reasonings aren't going to be very solid.

137 sounds forced - "I thought I posted my reads earlier but apparently not." It's only his 8th post and the 137th post overall - why would you think you've already posted a reads list? How can you not remember whether you did so or not in the previous 7 posts?

Because I was playing (and still am tbh) in like 8 games at the time and this one wasn't my top priority.

186 - interaction with shotty is bad

"bad"
Best reasoning 2016

205 - switched to BW becuase "Yeah this is absolutely ridiculous," then blatant rolefishing in 231 - "Someone just give intent to get the claim."

His case on wgeurts was awful. It basically summed up to OMGUS.
And then he was sitting at L-1 and likely going to be lynched yet was refusing to claim. Getting a claim there isn't rolefishing?
And to top it off, YOU were the one to give intent and try to get the claim in 230 and 233

258 - with claim in hand he moves back to shotty.

Yeah I don't like to continue pushing confirmed town.

265 - says that I've been "noticeably quiet." Prior to that he had 16 posts, I had 13 - not much of a difference, shows he's not really paying attention to the thread.

See above

293 - gives suggestions on the cop target to make it easier for the framer to get a hit

Suggesting Cop targets isn't a scumtell?

311 - "Why is Shotty being allowed to coast like this?" As we've discussed, bussing is most effective if you get credit for pushing the wagon. But, he doesn't have a real case to push, so we get general statements like this.

I did talk about my reasoning for pushing Shotty more then once. See 563, 600 and 612.

313 - 314 - 315 - These are horrible in hindsight. Cakez wants a shotty wagon, but all he can come up with for a reason is that shotty isn't contributing.

See above + not contributing is a pretty good reason to wagon someone.

354 - He can't come up with a good reason to push shotty, but he wants that town cred when shotty eventually flips, hence another general complaint as in 311 - "Why can't I get this shotty wagon going jeez"

See above + this was a valid complaint, the wagon was very difficult to get started.

General comment - most of his posts are one or two lines.

You've played with me before as town (Evolution Mafia), you know this is my playstyle and trying to push it as a scumtell is misrepping.

489 - "A Shotty lynch is good though" - Like 354 and 311, he doesn't have a case on shotty, but it's like he knows a shotty lynch is going through, knows shotty is scum, and wants the town cred for it.

See above

546 - asks for a vig shot on Masq without reason given

This should have been SUPER obvious. There's a reason Masq was wagoned immediately day 2.

563 - more bad interaction with shotty

"bad"
Still not good reasoning

564 - this one's really bad - "Shotty is strong scum for me obviously" - why strong scum? You keep telling us what a great lynch he is, but your only arguments are that he's not active enough, and the VI thing that you dropped a long time ago. But then he goes on to say, "Pers is nullish town, not very strong." But he previously said about me:
359 - "I was giving Persivul some slack since he said he had a lot of stuff going on irl but that instant sheep seems really questionable."
425 - "Persivul why is your ISO completely devoid of any analysis other then on wguerts?"
447 - "Persivul's KT vote also sucks."
473 - "Persivul - you literally went from posting a miniwall about KT to voting wgeurts in 3 posts. What's up there?"
He makes more points against me in that span than he ever does on shotty...but it's still "A shotty lynch is good" in 489, and he reads shotty as strong scum, while I'm nullish town. This is a huge red flag that cakez was scum knowingly bussing.

Grouping this all together.
The reason I had you as nullish town at the time was because you stated you had IRL issues going on, which gives you somewhat of a pass as compared to Shotty who had no excuse, + you were actually scumhunting, although haphazardly, at the least unlike shotty.
And once again see the above posts where I made my points on Shotty

So tl;dr misrep, hypocrisy and only bringing up these "points" against me when he has nowhere else left to go

I'm re-quoting this for reference.
Persivul used a TON of bullshit in this ISO and used several points that were not scummy. He has completely avoided responding to this as well.

Two examples of this in here - he accused me of rolefishing by asking someone to give intent on BlacleWorks.
Here's the kicker - Persivul was the one to declare intent and get the claim!

Another example - he stated that "most of my posts were one-two liners". Persivul has experience with me before, this is consistently my playstyle. Trying to use it as something to back up his case is a scum move.

[SirCakez]

Continuing Cakez ISO:

570 , 589 - Odd interactions with max regarding a possible Masq lynch, calls for a vig shot on Masq.

"Odd interactions" is just shade throwing, there's nothing there that's actually scum indicative.
Same thing applies to asking for a Vig shot on Masq. That's not scummy but he's trying to play it off like it is. Masq was very scummy, Persivul joined the wagon himself the next day.

626 - The

pretend I don't really know

twilight post.

This was clearly a legitimate twilight post because I was worried Shotty would flip town as he claimed town post-hammer and wgeurts was backing him up but he was just twilight trolling.

655 - "haven't put together a readslist yet and think I should." This guy really can't remember if he has put reads lists together, indicating that he's not really making reads. Max is safely in the middle.

I hadn't made a readslist up to that point, unless you count 137 but that wasn't a complete list so I discounted it
So I didn't forget anything, and saying that means "I'm not really making reads" is crap.
Max being null - this is hilarious because Persivul ALSO had Max as a solid Null. So he's basically also calling himself scum for this.

662 - "Someone give intent on Masq and get a claim pls"

This is just a random quote from my ISO, not even analyzed.

672 - To kuroi, "you avoided the shotty wagon completely and rode his counterwagon the whole time." Kuroi was on me during the shotty wagon, so he admits I was a CW to a scum wagon.

Shotty was the counterwagon to you, not the other way around. Being wagoned at the same time as another scum does not preclude you from being scum, especially when you weren't the counterwagon, the scum was.

General - a lot of 1-liners without content.

This comment about my meta again, which also applies to Pers himself who has an ISO loaded with one-liners and naked votes.

833 - Another request for intent

Another piece of commentary not actually analyzing[/quote]

I've talked about D3 before but have a little more to add.

Kuroi was lynched in under 11 hours. Cakez was on that wagon, just voting and saying "Ugh back to this" in 862. There were about 4 hours between L-1 and hammer. Cakez was very active in other threads during that time. He likely knew about the L-1 (Kuroi pointed it out) but didn't unvote. The new part that I just noticed: he was back posting just 12 minutes after the hammer.

OTOH, I made two posts that day, 1 general, 1 pressuring Kuroi but not voting.

I think this is the fourth time Pers has mentioned this? The answer will be the same every time - no one expected a quickhammer from Blacle. There were also two dead town on the wagon, did they unvote? No, because no one expects confirmed town to quickhammer.

[SirCakez]

Chilled's later comment is irrelevant. You stated I would kill Anen, thus a Chilled kill would point to you by your own reasoning.

[SirCakez]

That's the answer of scum who doesn't want to actually look at their case being shot down.

[SirCakez]

How does it not?

You gave more reasons to scum read me then you did shotty, but shotty ended up as strong scum, and you had me at nullish town.

He was coasting the whole day, no scumhunting, had terrible reactions to

being pushed by me.

Your push on him was far worse.

You hopped on

and developed a scumread on Shotty with little reasoning behind it.

You're forgetting that we know we're dealing with a bus here. A D1 early position bus is a waste unless you get town cred for it, and you don't get town cred if you don't push. By saying that I just hopped on rather than pushed is a factor indicative of me as town, while your admitted push points to you as scum.

Because some analysis and scumhunting (wgeurts) > no pushing.
Plus like I've said more then once you said you had IRL issues so I cut you some slack

That's completely not true. Being a vote on a scum wagon is a vote on a scum wagon. Also like I said earlier, it appeared to be a spot-of-the-moment bus rather then a dedicated push for towncred. Just hopping on isn't indicative of town.
P-edit: Yes I'm arguing with myself lol

[SirCakez]

Oh boy this is gonna be fun
Right off the bat: Persivul made literally 0 mention of any of this until today. I was a townread of his for my Shotty push until today as a matter of fact, suspect in itself.
Now

Spoiler:

Looking at cakez' ISO:

55 - starts the shotty push on a weak pretext - whether VI specifically refers to town or is just a way of calling someone stupid

This was the third page. Push reasonings aren't going to be very solid.

137 sounds forced - "I thought I posted my reads earlier but apparently not." It's only his 8th post and the 137th post overall - why would you think you've already posted a reads list? How can you not remember whether you did so or not in the previous 7 posts?

Because I was playing (and still am tbh) in like 8 games at the time and this one wasn't my top priority.

186 - interaction with shotty is bad

"bad"
Best reasoning 2016

205 - switched to BW becuase "Yeah this is absolutely ridiculous," then blatant rolefishing in 231 - "Someone just give intent to get the claim."

His case on wgeurts was awful. It basically summed up to OMGUS.
And then he was sitting at L-1 and likely going to be lynched yet was refusing to claim. Getting a claim there isn't rolefishing?
And to top it off, YOU were the one to give intent and try to get the claim in 230 and 233

258 - with claim in hand he moves back to shotty.

Yeah I don't like to continue pushing confirmed town.

265 - says that I've been "noticeably quiet." Prior to that he had 16 posts, I had 13 - not much of a difference, shows he's not really paying attention to the thread.

See above

293 - gives suggestions on the cop target to make it easier for the framer to get a hit

Suggesting Cop targets isn't a scumtell?

311 - "Why is Shotty being allowed to coast like this?" As we've discussed, bussing is most effective if you get credit for pushing the wagon. But, he doesn't have a real case to push, so we get general statements like this.

I did talk about my reasoning for pushing Shotty more then once. See 563, 600 and 612.

313 - 314 - 315 - These are horrible in hindsight. Cakez wants a shotty wagon, but all he can come up with for a reason is that shotty isn't contributing.

See above + not contributing is a pretty good reason to wagon someone.

354 - He can't come up with a good reason to push shotty, but he wants that town cred when shotty eventually flips, hence another general complaint as in 311 - "Why can't I get this shotty wagon going jeez"

See above + this was a valid complaint, the wagon was very difficult to get started.

General comment - most of his posts are one or two lines.

You've played with me before as town (Evolution Mafia), you know this is my playstyle and trying to push it as a scumtell is misrepping.

489 - "A Shotty lynch is good though" - Like 354 and 311, he doesn't have a case on shotty, but it's like he knows a shotty lynch is going through, knows shotty is scum, and wants the town cred for it.

See above

546 - asks for a vig shot on Masq without reason given

This should have been SUPER obvious. There's a reason Masq was wagoned immediately day 2.

563 - more bad interaction with shotty

"bad"
Still not good reasoning

564 - this one's really bad - "Shotty is strong scum for me obviously" - why strong scum? You keep telling us what a great lynch he is, but your only arguments are that he's not active enough, and the VI thing that you dropped a long time ago. But then he goes on to say, "Pers is nullish town, not very strong." But he previously said about me:
359 - "I was giving Persivul some slack since he said he had a lot of stuff going on irl but that instant sheep seems really questionable."
425 - "Persivul why is your ISO completely devoid of any analysis other then on wguerts?"
447 - "Persivul's KT vote also sucks."
473 - "Persivul - you literally went from posting a miniwall about KT to voting wgeurts in 3 posts. What's up there?"
He makes more points against me in that span than he ever does on shotty...but it's still "A shotty lynch is good" in 489, and he reads shotty as strong scum, while I'm nullish town. This is a huge red flag that cakez was scum knowingly bussing.

Grouping this all together.
The reason I had you as nullish town at the time was because you stated you had IRL issues going on, which gives you somewhat of a pass as compared to Shotty who had no excuse, + you were actually scumhunting, although haphazardly, at the least unlike shotty.
And once again see the above posts where I made my points on Shotty

So tl;dr misrep, hypocrisy and only bringing up these "points" against me when he has nowhere else left to go

I'm re-quoting this for reference.
Persivul used a TON of bullshit in this ISO and used several points that were not scummy. He has completely avoided responding to this as well.

Two examples of this in here - he accused me of rolefishing by asking someone to give intent on BlacleWorks.
Here's the kicker - Persivul was the one to declare intent and get the claim!

Another example - he stated that "most of my posts were one-two liners". Persivul has experience with me before, this is consistently my playstyle. Trying to use it as something to back up his case is a scum move.

Persivul you ever gonna respond to this or just keep dodging?

[SirCakez]

Persivul you ever gonna respond to this or just keep dodging?

I wasn't planning on doing either, but if you insist:

Persivul used a TON of bullshit in this ISO and used several points that were not scummy. He has completely avoided responding to this as well.

I found the responses so weak that it was pointless to dignify them with a response. When Anen likewise said they were devoid of content, that confirmed my opinion.

Two examples of this in here - he accused me of rolefishing by asking someone to give intent on BlacleWorks.
Here's the kicker - Persivul was the one to declare intent and get the claim!

And? I said some time ago that our ISOs had a lot of similarities. I'm not disputing that. Since Chilled thinks my ISO is very scummy, I actually like it when you point out the similarities.

Another example - he stated that "most of my posts were one-two liners". Persivul has experience with me before, this is consistently my playstyle. Trying to use it as something to back up his case is a scum move.

It was an observation for chilled and anen to do with as they like.

But you know what's scummy? Saying that someone is dodging because they don't comment on every post. Have you commented on every post that mentioned you? If not, are you also dodging?

-Of course you made no mention of that until Anen said something. Looking for approval assuredly.
-So you're calling yourself scummy basically. OK!
-You needed to state your "general observation" twice because ?

I don't expect a response to every post but when you ISO someone and they respond to the whole thing I think responding to that is pretty reasonable.

[SirCakez]

Shit how'd you figure that out Anen?

[SirCakez]

I'm here now, catching up in a bunch of games at once.

[SirCakez]

The biggest gripe I've with sir cakes is he didn't vote anyone and it definitely looked like he was waiting for L-1 on pers.

This is pretty silly though. A hammer wasn't going through without both you and Anen voting. Witholding my vote just so I could hammer as scum would be pointless.

His answer to your question was strange.

It was sarcasm if the rolling eyes didn't make it obvious.

He has been just as guilty of framing persivul as persivul has been of framing cakes.

Could you provide examples of this?

So it isn't like he is OMGOBVTOWN but yeah these things can be nai as well.

The biggest problem right now is I feel pers's outburst to the pressure is probably town. Cakes hasn't been under that kind of pressure yet so it is difficult to see whether he is town/scum.

It's called AtE yo. Screaming and cursing isn't a towntell. I just finished a game (Amazing World of Gumball) where a scum (Most Serene) did this ALL game. Constantly caps spam, cursing, insulting. They were still scum.[/quote]

[SirCakez]

Cakes has definitely not done much analysis this game. Problem is, pers hasn't done much either.

There is another thing about cakes I didn't like - He pointed out that he would have "liked pers better" if max flilps scum. That was pointed out as captain obvious by pers and that discussion made me feel that maybe cakes was posturing.

This was because I was expecting Clumsy to be the last scum if Max flipped scum. I didn't think Persivul would hammer a scum buddy like that at the time.

[SirCakez]

The OMGOBVTOWN sentence was a typo from the quote wall I was doing, ignore that oops.
Anything you want to discuss with me, ask away.

[SirCakez]

The biggest gripe I've with sir cakes is he didn't vote anyone and it definitely looked like he was waiting for L-1 on pers.

This is pretty silly though. A hammer wasn't going through without both you and Anen voting. Witholding my vote just so I could hammer as scum would be pointless.

No. It wouldn't be pointless. The way the game was moving if we assume that you are scum, all it required was a vote from anen and me towards pers and you would have hammered.

Think about it - if I'm scum and put my vote down, then I'm stuck waiting for you and Anen. If I'm scum and don't put my vote down, I'm stuck waiting for you and Anen. The only real difference is the order of the votes.

His answer to your question was strange.

It was sarcasm if the rolling eyes didn't make it obvious.

Yeah that sarcastic answer was strange.

I'm sarcastic all the time. Not sure how that's strange.

He has been just as guilty of framing persivul as persivul has been of framing cakes.

Could you provide examples of this?

There is a post where you point out "scummy" things pers did on day 1 to which he replied "guilty as charged".

i don't understand how this is framing.

The biggest problem right now is I feel pers's outburst to the pressure is probably town. Cakes hasn't been under that kind of pressure yet so it is difficult to see whether he is town/scum.

It's called AtE yo. Screaming and cursing isn't a towntell. I just finished a game (Amazing World of Gumball) where a scum (Most Serene) did this ALL game. Constantly caps spam, cursing, insulting. They were still scum.

Obviously there is a difference between genuine and fake outbursts, this one feels genuine.

Not really? He basically insulted you and gave up. Read more like fed-up scum to me, although that's confirmation biased.

Bolded and underlined my words. Got kind of messed up.

[SirCakez]

Both

[SirCakez]

I'm aware the hammer is important lol. I'm saying it's mostly irrelevant due to the fact no lynch was going through without both of you regardless.
And it wasn't me vs Persivul solely until a day or so ago also, you two weren't 100% confirmed town until then.

[SirCakez]

That's exactly why it is confirmation biased, because I know he's scum. I could go in and show why it's scum AtE but I know it's scum AtE and you don't so that part of it would be biased.
I was confident in Anen being town but I didn't want to put down a vote quickly like Persivul ended up doing on the very off chance either of you were scum. It's basic paranoia.

[SirCakez]

Oh I'm talking about a different kind of confirmation bias, I think that's the confusion. As in I already know something is true so when I try to explain it the bias of knowing it's true will be part of the explanation.
I was sure Persivul was scum from my reads earlier. Like I noted Day 4, Max/Persivul seemed like a likely scum team, and I've had a solid townread on Anen the entire game. I wasn't 100% sure Pers was the scum until you both became confirmed town via not hammering, but I was like 80% sure beforehand.

[SirCakez]

True, it was just the best term I could think of for it. I don't think it has a name.

Didn't want to quickhammer him
Which raises the irony of how much Persivul has been attacking me today for allowing a quickhammer Day 3 when he quickhamemred Max himself

[SirCakez]

Town obviously
Because I was trying to sort out the two remaining scum rather then pressuring specific people, it's clear from my ISO that day.

[SirCakez]

By looking at associations? Seems p obvious to me.

[SirCakez]

To put it simply, if you were scum instead of persivul, I think it would have been pretty convenient for you coast in the background watching the show that town displayed hoping that they lynch clumsy/persivul without you interfering, instead of max. How would you defend yourself against that accusation?

I said I wanted Max lynched clearly though, I didn't put a vote down but that's where I wanted to go

Is it wrong that I just read the above post in some Villain's voice like "Nice...[evil smile, rubs hands] Even if you guys end up blowing it up, [hehehe].."

It's because he is a villain!

[SirCakez]

I haven't received much pressure, true.
I really think Anen is town here though and Max's case on him doesn't read well to me at all

Clumsy what are the "good points" of the wall?

I am very sure Anen is town here, especially after these last few posts. Max's defense is just making me more confident that Anen's right here.

Whoops I didn't say I wanted him lynched clearly but I did make it clear I thought he was scum.

[SirCakez]

I said Anen's case is right and Max's case is bad, and that Anen was town, thus meaning Max was scum. P simple.

[SirCakez]

I have no idea, other then presumably Tex checked you night 1 from the crumb clear post she made Day 2.

[SirCakez]

That's because my phone service has gone to shit recently and I can't make big posts like the ones I'm about to make from mobile.

[SirCakez]

This is pretty silly though. A hammer wasn't going through without both you and Anen voting. Witholding my vote just so I could hammer as scum would be pointless.

Not really, and I saw ChilledTea explaining it later.

I still don't understand this, "not really" isn't very helpful.

It was sarcasm if the rolling eyes didn't make it obvious.

Still a null at best.

I wasn't arguing it was indicative of anything so ok?

Cakes, do you know that persivul is scum, or do you feel that persivul is scum?

Both

At this state of the game this made no sense.
ChilledTea is not scum, nor me. So if SirCakez is town he

must

know Persivul is scum (and vice versa).

I know he is scum, and I feel he is scum. That's why I was pushing him mainly the whole day even before you and chilled became conf town. They aren't mutually exclusive.

I'm aware the hammer is important lol. I'm saying it's mostly irrelevant due to the fact no lynch was going through without both of you regardless.
And it wasn't me vs Persivul solely until a day or so ago also, you two weren't 100% confirmed town until then.

I don't think NoLynch was ever considered seriously as an option.
And the lack of your vote is indeed concerning.
Persivul was examining me as a possibility and I was a real option for ChilledTea for a long time. We can't rule out that you wouldn't have turned against me if a vote for me had arrived.

I think it was, there was a big discussion about who the nightkills would point to.
I was hard townreading you the whole day and you think I would have turned against you if you had gotten votes on you? Hell no.

Yeah but you were pretty confident of anen and I wasn't. What were you waiting for before voting? You weren't even trying to figure out anen (or me) all you did was try and figure out persivul. Your actions have been regarding persivul only so you should have either voted him or you should have been doubtful of anen.

Also that.

I responded to this already pretty sure. Basically I was focusing on Persivul because he's the one I thought was scum. I'm not going to branch out and "investigate" a hard townread.

Because I was trying to sort out the two remaining scum rather then pressuring specific people, it's clear from my ISO that day.

Show me those posts.

I'll grab quotes in my next post.

I too have a question, both for Persivul and SirCakez.
If you were scum, whom would you have targetted at Night1 for the Kill and why?

Probably you since you were a consistent townread for me the whole day

[SirCakez]

My lynch pool today was going to be (Max, Chilled, Clumsy) but I think Ranger's right that that was a crumb clear. I remember thinking it was a bizarre townread at the time, makes much more sense if she had a clear on him.
So then yeah Max or Clumsy is fine for the lynch today.

I could see Persivul as a busser on Shotty. He only really started pressuring Shotty after he came under a lot of pressure on himself.
Maybe Max/Persivul?

Anen I'm not ruling him out, I just saw the Max/Persivul pairing more likely then, for example, Clumsy/Persivul or Clumsy/Max from the VCA you did.

I haven't received much pressure, true.
I really think Anen is town here though and Max's case on him doesn't read well to me at all

Clumsy what are the "good points" of the wall?

I am very sure Anen is town here, especially after these last few posts. Max's defense is just making me more confident that Anen's right here.

Quotes for Anen

[SirCakez]

This is horrible.
SirCakez and Persivul are just mirroring each other. When Persivul's pressurized, SirCakez does almost nothing. When SirCakez gets pressurized, Persivul does almost nothing.

You know what's horrible? When chilled votes cakez, you said he ninja'd you, indicating you had been planning on voting cakes. You wouldn't be putting someone at L-1 if you weren't comfortable with lynching them. Yet, he remains unlynched.

Taking your time to make a decision is fine, but putting someone at L-1 in mylo implies that you've made a decision, and saying that you ninja'd his vote implies that he was going to put cakez at L-1. I get that it's tough to be the one pulling the trigger, but regarding this:

SirCakez and Persivul are just mirroring each other. When Persivul's pressurized, SirCakez does almost nothing. When SirCakez gets pressurized, Persivul does almost nothing.

I have 180 posts and cakez has 140. I can't speak for cakez, but it seems to me that enough information is there from the course of the game, and the beginning of this day. Lack of information isn't the problem. What we do at this point when the other is "pressurized" is insignificant compared to what's already out there.

@anen: Here's an idea...let's lynch cakez and win this thing...

Wow you sure are eager for a lynch, huh?

[SirCakez]

I have no idea, other then presumably Tex checked you night 1 from the crumb clear post she made Day 2.

Why no idea? When you're a cop, do you (or would you, if you've never been one) target people at random? Presumably not. You have various criteria you use to select a target, and you could have applied those criteria to this situation and drawn some conclusions.

I don't know the mind of Texcat, why would I know who she thought seemed like a good target (other then crumbs like the Chilled one)? This is just shade throwing.

[SirCakez]

Ok caught up. Persivul's play now reeks of scum who's managed to reverse a predicament into an advantageous situation and is desperate for a win. Don't fall for his "lynch Cakez NOW and win" crap please.

[SirCakez]

Because if you were town, you would want to actually give the confirmed town time to make a decision instead of trying to pigeonhole one comment into "hurr durr you should have lynched him by now".

[SirCakez]

UNVOTE:

We definitely need to talk about this. I agree that persivul has been attempting to manipulate, he has been doing that since the beginning of this day. Unfortunately, some town members tend to play that way as town. They think manipulating other members of the town gives them a better chance of surviving and this is sometimes not differentiable.

Persivul wouldn't have been this blatantly scummy if he was scum. He is not reserved, he is completely ruthless in his approach. That is town carelessness.

Cakes is slower? He knows he doesn't have to do much to get a win. If he plays it quietly he wins.

Why is persivul town? Because of day 1 - he pushed a lot of people and has generally been pro-active with his reads. He was pushed by shotty as a counter wagon. His interaction with shotty doesn't seem scum vs scum.

He has analysed the situation always. He doesn't reach a conclusion without reason, like cakes does all the time. Cakez is basically "Hey, these are my reads. It should be obvious why - " Persivul is "Hey these are my reads and this is the reason why - "

Remember the texcat question? Persivul gave the right answer. He is analysing the game and is town. Cakez is not in a position to analyse because he is scum.

Cakes waiting on his vote is a far bigger alarm than persivul trying to get his opponent lynched. Persivul's outburst was town.

-"Too scummy to be scum" is a horrendous reason to townread people.
-How has my play recently been "quiet"?
-Pushing a lot of people is more a scum tell then town. Pro-active with his reads - not really? Go review his ISO, he just flung votes where they would stick.
-Persivul NEVER explained reads until Day 4 lol. For example he was all over Tex day 1 and never laid out a case there. I made a quote wall of posts talking about my Shotty read.
-"can't analyze because he's scum" what the fuck?
-Anyone can fake an outburst

like damn come on

[SirCakez]

Persivul's been trying to manipulate me and his latest posts have shown it clearly. (Eg. the fact how hard he's been trying to make me end the game with lynching SirCakez.) His gameplay is much more "gamestate-sensitive", I mean he's trying to exploit everything and turn everything on his side.

And?

As I see it, you're interpreting the facts through this: "Namely, if we lynch Persivul and SirCakez gets away with it, noone will blame us. But if we lynch SirCakez and he flips town, we won't be called good players for a long time..."

So, yes, I need to try to manipulate you. Logical arguments don't overcome emotional impediments.

Plus, I can only work with what I have. You said the cakez vote ninja'd you and I'm working with that. If you didn't really mean it, then my arguments based on it aren't going to be accurate.

This is super obvscum. Admitting he's twisting Anen's words into trying to force a lynch.

[SirCakez]

The observations that persivul is making comes from town, anen.

Saying "I think max/persivul is the most likely pairing" like sircakez said is one thing, however analysing why sir cakes is town and why maxous looks bad because of the shotty lynch like persivul did at the end of day 4 is another.

The observations that persivul is making comes from town, anen.

Saying "I think max/persivul is the most likely pairing" like sircakez said is one thing, however analysing

why sir cakes is town and why maxous looks bad

because of the shotty lynch like persivul did at the end of day 4 is another.

Excellent point, and for another reason. We didn't know that Ranger would vig Clumsy.

If I were scum at that point, I would have been planning for two more lynches after max

- one with 5 people left, then one at 3 person lylo. The people I had to choose from:

Anen
Cakez
Chilled
Clumsy

Clumsy was being scum read by others and so was an easy choice, BUT...I still would have needed one more lynch to win. Where would I get that?

Anen - I put a town read on him in 1003
Cakez - I put a town read on him in 1007
Chilled - cop crumbed

I didn't leave myself another lynch after clumsy.

Here's a mafia PT showing that I do plan out NKs and lynches when I'm scum:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=62220

QED mothafuckas!

This is the smoking gun. Scum knows that if Max goes, they need two possible mislynches. Clumsy is one. Chilled is basically conftown. Anen has been widely town read. That means scum!pers needs to start setting up cakez, or scum!cakez needs to start setting up pers.

Cakez is town. Check his D1 play. Decent pressure on multiple targets, first person on shotty, plenty of chances to move if the shotty pressure was just distancing, interactions with shotty don't read as SvS.

Here I say straight out that cakez is town. Scum!pers at best would have said something like

I'm not sure about cakez

. More likely he would have said

cakez pinged me in a couple posts, but I think max is scummier

. There's no way he can afford to give cakez a full town read here.

can nobody hammer until KT gets replaced anyway please?

shotty and pers are both fairly strong town-reads at the moment.

Why? Shotty is strong scum for me obviously and Pers is nullish town, not very strong.

haven't put together a readslist yet and think I should

(Blacle)
(Anen, Persivul)
(Maxous, texcat, chilledtea, Clumsy)
(wgeurts, Kuroi)
(Masquerade)

I could see Persivul as a busser on Shotty. He only really started pressuring Shotty after he came under a lot of pressure on himself.
Maybe Max/Persivul?

Cakez begins setting me up out of the blue, after having me as a town lean previously.

Your thoughts Anen?

Grouping these together since they're all about the same thing
Persivul clearly did not think Clumsy was getting vigged, he admitted as much himself. The plan was likely push on Clumsy the nest day then set me up on the day he was pushing Clumsy. He was expecting another day in there that he did not get, which is why his push from townread to scumread today is so awkward.
And his point about not leaving anyone to push is moot, because he is pushing me right now! The townread on me clearly meant nothing.

[SirCakez]

This is super obvscum. Admitting he's twisting Anen's words into trying to force a lynch.

Total misrep. It's clear I'm saying that IMO Anen used the term incorrectly. When someone says they were ninja'd in a forum context, in my experience they're saying that another person said something that they were about to say themself. Chilled voted for you. Anen then said that chilled ninja'd his vote. I don't know how to take that other than to say that Anen had decided to vote you, but then held back only because Chilled had voted you.

It seemed rather obvious to me that he meant his post got ninjaed, not vote. He's stated now as well that he didn't mean he was going to vote so ???

[SirCakez]

When I get home, hard to link stuff from mobile

[SirCakez]

UNVOTE:

We definitely need to talk about this. I agree that persivul has been attempting to manipulate, he has been doing that since the beginning of this day. Unfortunately, some town members tend to play that way as town. They think manipulating other members of the town gives them a better chance of surviving and this is sometimes not differentiable.

Persivul wouldn't have been this blatantly scummy if he was scum. He is not reserved, he is completely ruthless in his approach. That is town carelessness.

Cakes is slower? He knows he doesn't have to do much to get a win. If he plays it quietly he wins.

Why is persivul town? Because of day 1 - he pushed a lot of people and has generally been pro-active with his reads. He was pushed by shotty as a counter wagon. His interaction with shotty doesn't seem scum vs scum.

He has analysed the situation always. He doesn't reach a conclusion without reason, like cakes does all the time. Cakez is basically "Hey, these are my reads. It should be obvious why - " Persivul is "Hey these are my reads and this is the reason why - "

Remember the texcat question? Persivul gave the right answer. He is analysing the game and is town. Cakez is not in a position to analyse because he is scum.

Cakes waiting on his vote is a far bigger alarm than persivul trying to get his opponent lynched. Persivul's outburst was town.

-"Too scummy to be scum" is a horrendous reason to townread people.
-How has my play recently been "quiet"?
-Pushing a lot of people is more a scum tell then town. Pro-active with his reads - not really? Go review his ISO, he just flung votes where they would stick.
-Persivul NEVER explained reads until Day 4 lol. For example he was all over Tex day 1 and never laid out a case there. I made a quote wall of posts talking about my Shotty read.
-"can't analyze because he's scum" what the fuck?
-Anyone can fake an outburst

like damn come on

1) Too scummy to be scum is not the only reason to town read persivul. Also, "scummy" in this case basically means careless or uncontrolled behaviour which is most likely to come from town.

2) I've pointed out recently that you have been very reluctant from doing anything drastic. That's being quiet in my opinion.

3) No. Pushing people is town. He didn't push a lot of people but I agree with anen that his position on texcat was bad.

4) Not necessarily. I think he explained his short term town read on wgeurtz. He was never asked for an explanation till day 4 but he still gave analysis of the game.

5) Yes.

6) No.

-I didn't say it was. "Careless and uncontrolled" - what makes this more likely from town then scum?
-what is something "drastic"? The vote? That's the only thing I can think of
-He voted literally half the playerlist day 1. That's a lot of people. He had no focus in his pushes, he was just trying to get something to stick.
-If that's your definition of " analysis" then I've sure done a lot more then Persivul up to today.
-???
-???

[SirCakez]

At this point you're just conf biasing and looking for reasons to townread Persivul that aren't legitimate, like his "outburst" earlier. Nothing you're saying is a solid towntell and at worst some of the stuff you're using to townread him is scummy (pushing a lot of people Day 1). You need to go review his ISO and then come back.

[SirCakez]

I want to make links and quotes to support my case on pers, not just a couple sentences. Chilled's thing could be answered without those.

[SirCakez]

I'm going to respond to the posts on this page first, then will do the case.

[SirCakez]

Well cakez, town really has no reason to control their behaviour. Or at least, less reasons to control their behaviour.

I am not saying pers is obvtown. So telling me to check his ISO is silly because I've done it.

His interaction with shotty and your interaction with shotty makes me feel that you are the scum, not him.

His outburst was legitimate. I can't see scum explaining their situation the way he did. It was too accurate to be from scum.

Also, why are you defending yourself by comparing yourself to persivul? It has already been established that you and pers have played ridiculously similar to each other.

You however have been more careful, and he has not.

Tell me cakez, why weren't you NK'd night 1 for basically being conf town by starting the wagon on shotty? Scum are afraid of town that are confirmed - or very close to confirmed.

Alex was not a threat compared to you. No reason to think alex was PR any more than you.

-That's not true. If town starts flailing around and cursing out people then they cause chaos and are inviting themselves to be mislynched. So town definitely has motivation to keep controlled.
-It is basically what you are saying though. You haven't even considered him as scum for several days.
-His interactions with Shotty were very bad. Little to no interaction, then he developed a sudden scumread on Shotty just when he became the leading wagon.
-How is being accurate in an outburst exclusive to town? Scum can describe their own play and curse at people.
-I'm not? You're the one bringing up comparisons.
-How should I know the answer to that? Ask Persivul, he's the scum.

[SirCakez]

Like, if we are talking of confirmation bias, then I am confirmation bias against persivul, not you cakez. Why?

Because I called a max/pers scum team on day 2 itself.

So it should be like a victory to me that I caught both scum on day 2. But that isn't how mafia works.

So yeah.

*slaps*
You're confirmation biasing by looking at everything from the perspective of Persivul town, Cakez scum. Persivul posted some seriously scummy shit trying to rush the lynch and you basically ignored it. At the least Anen saw it for what it was.

[SirCakez]

If pers is scum he was too stupid to kill you on night 1. He went for alex who town read him instead of going for someone who was widely town read - either you or anen.

You on the other hand - it is possible that you killed alex. PR hunting is the possible reason.

Alex also townread me, this is irrelevant.
This is an example of your confirmation bias. Why couldn't Persivul have been PR hunting?

[SirCakez]

Dude, I fucking get it if you have emergencies with your pets or families or whatever but if you're not going to be able to play this game, you should replace out.

Only three people have more posts than me. A couple people with fewer posts probably have more real content, but still, I'm at least in the middle of the pack as far as contribution goes. Check Masquerade's ISO and vote him if you want to charge someone with not playing the game.

p-edit: take your head out of your ass and put your vote somewhere useful.

This is bad, now this is the "why me fry my tell" I thought I saw with Clumsy earlier. Also the whole "I wouldn't do this as scum is" not correct as he does this as scum. I'll get some games as evidence.

What games was he scum and played like this? The meta might change my read.

I'll read through, and I might just go hunting through some of his other games and I'll give it some thought.

He hard defended you for all of two posts sure, but then he said this.
Showing he was clearly open to changing his read on you

[SirCakez]

Why Persivul is scum

1. Threw votes absolutely everywhere Day 1. This clearly looks like scum trying to push through lynches on anywhere possible. He voted Blacle, Kuroi, Texcat, wgeurts, Masquerade, KainTepes/Chilled, and finally Shotty.
Below is his vote history from Day 1. He changed his vote a whopping 10 times in total. There was no dedication behind any of his pushes.

Spoiler:

VOTE: Blacle

I'm really sick of people declaring themselves conftown, even if they're joking.

VOTE: Kuroi

VOTE: texcat

No JK should def be protecting the confirmed town lol

We can't keep him alive long enough to make a difference, unless you're proposing we don't use any of our actions for cop investigations. We just protect one wild conftown every night and gain no new information from our PRs.

VOTE: wgeurts

Maxous. Wgeurts is the only one who pushed for my lynch and it was indeed a terrible push. I honestly don't know how I got to L-1. Perhaps its a matter of insecurity that lead those people to be lead astray. I have to come realize that being sure of yourself in this game tends to bother some individuals.
I'm picking up what your putting down. However, I happen to think that Wgeurts is actually scum and tried to push a scum myslynch on what appeared to be a weak player(me). I think your vote would be better on Wgeurts than anything else. Wgeurts flip will give you more traction for your push on Texcat if he flips town, and it wont damage your traction if Wgeurts flips scum.
Do you agree?

D1 scum generally don't lead a lynch wagon right from the start. They wait to see how things develop and help push a wagon that's already started. If you're right that he's the only one who pushed you, that's townie for D1.

VOTE: texcat

VOTE: Masquerade

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

Just ran across this from gurts in the discussion forum:

People should stop trying to act townie intentionally as town, due to that a meta can form with "how town should act" which scum players of a certain level can easily replicate as their scum-game. People should just play as they do naturally. That way people are forced to look genuine as scum which is harder and not just meet a set of standards.

Why aren't you following your own advice? You expect people to do certain things you consider townie even if they don't feel like doing it naturally.

VOTE: wgeurts

BlacleWorks (6):

Alexcellent

, wgeurts, Aneninen,

KainTepes

, SirCakez, texcat (L-1)
texcat (3): KuroiXHF, Maxous, Persivul
wgeurts (1): BlacleWorks
Maxous (1): Clumsy
KainTepes (1): drmyshottyizsik

Not Voting (1): Masquerade
________________________________

texcat (6): KuroiXHF, Maxous, Persivul,

KainTepes

,

Alexcellent

, Masquerade (L-1)
wgeurts (2): BlacleWorks, Clumsy
Aneninen (1): drmyshottyizsik
Persivul (1): texcat
drmyshottyizsik (1): SirCakez

Not Voting (2): Aneninen, wgeurts

________________________________

BW is now conftown. It's doubtful his entire wagon is town. The BW L-1 is at post 226. The texcat is at 318. That's way too fast, so there's most likely scum on there too. The two wagons have Alex and Kain in common. Alex had scum read both BW and texcat as early as 120, so his presence isn't troubling. Kain's first and only reference to texcat was the vote.
VOTE: KainTepes

Also BW if you shoot me, we policy lynch you and then the town loses you are solely responsible. If you want to win don't be an idiot.

Fear mongering. Suggesting a PL on a PR. What would professor guerts say about such play? Pretty sure he'd call it scummy.

VOTE: wgeurts

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

2. He developed a super sudden scumread on Shotty that looks like a clear bus to protect himself when he became the leading wagon.
Here are all of his posts that mention Shotty.
First quote is a question
2nd and 3rd are his "flipping off wgeurts" posts that aren't serious.
4th is explaining the definition of anti-town to Shotty
5th and 6th is where his Shotty scumread randomly develops and he puts down his vote on Shotty. No explanation at all for this.
And to boot, in the 9th quote, when asked for the case on Shotty, he says Tex isn't reading the game or is scum. ]
Like I don't know how you can say he's been analyzing with these interactions with Shotty.

Spoiler:

I'm not a vig but I'm not sure I would cc if I were

Why the fuck not? It's a guaranteed scum kill.

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

That instant sheep was basically me flipping off gurts...

Please explain to me how you can be anti town but not mafia in a 2 faction game? Also what do you mean by the numbers? Are you say we should randomly guess all the time and ignore logic, reason, and statistics?

Anti-town simply means play that does not advance the game. Unfortunately, this isn't as easy to determine as some people think. For instance, people are saying that my lack of explanation for my votes doesn't help the rest of town understand my concerns and so doesn't advance the game. That's playing by the numbers. However, it could be that I'm voting merely to see reactions. OTOH, consider detailed charges: they do help other town understand your concerns, but they also help scum understand your concerns and adapt their behavior accordingly.

What's town, anti-town, or scum therefore comes down to motivations. Another example: it's simplistic (i.e. by the numbers) to say that I was being opportunistic by joining a wagon. You need to consider other factors: was I in danger myself? Was there another wagon going on at the same time that I might have been trying to counter? I.e., did I have real scum motivations for getting on the wagon? If not, isn't it possible that I had unstated reasons to join it, or simply wanted to see the reaction to additional pressure?

will you WAGON shotty with me, wgeursts?

Eh, why not?
VOTE: drmyshottyizsik
That name is going to be a pain with the automatic votecount lol

All 3 scum in one post???

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

If I voted for shotty now would I be hammering?

Not even close. He's at L-4. You can vote him now, we need the consolidation and you've made your point about gurts loud and clear. I think pigeon's plan is good - lynch shotty, then you can decide what to do with the vig shot.

I'm not going to vote shotty.

Why not?

@ texcat: You haven't been reading the thread? I understand that question from a replacement, but from someone who's been here all along, it indicates:
- you're not following the game, or
- you're his scum partner, and you hope that no one wants to be bothered repeating what's already been said, thus giving you an excuse not to join the wagon.

Current reads:

BlacleWorks - conftown due to unCC'd claim

Town

Aneninen
SirCakez

Lean town

Alexcellent

Null/Need to sort

Maxous
KuroiXHF
Clumsy

Null-scum

KainTepes
Masquerade

Scum

wgeurts
drmyshottyizsik
texcat

3. His entire case on me today has consisted of hypocrisy and misrep.
Examples include
-The entire "urgh" push. This is reaching to the maximum. Even worse is the convenient fact he "missed" a town game of mine where I said it. See 1041 and 1065 and 1091.
-He's been trying to use the Kuroi quicklynch as a scumtell for basically the entire day. He's mentioned it easily 5-6 times, and it has been explained more then once (no one expected a Blacle quickhammer). Now-confirmed town Tex and Clumsy were also on this wagon without unvoting. See 1053, 1056, 1098, 1194, and now 1391. Consistently bringing it up and acting like it's some new revelation when he's mentioned it multiple times before.
-A ton of hypocrisy regarding scumreads on Masquerade. He pointed out that my scumread on Masquerade was random and tried to push me asking for a Vig on Masq as scummy, yet he himself was a pusher on Masq with little to no development of a scumread on him. See 536 and 651. Had Masq as nullscum while Tex and wgeurts were scumreads, yet pushed on Masq instead. Also another example of little to no explanation of his scumreads.
-Loads of bullshit in his "ISOs" on me. For example, he accused me of rolefishing for asking someone to give intent to hammer on Blacle, when he was the one to provide intent himself, and repeatedly mentioned "lots of one-liners" when he has experience with me and knows this is my playstyle.. It's scum just cherry picking whatever they can mold to look scummy. See 1182 and 1193.

[SirCakez]

Like, if we are talking of confirmation bias, then I am confirmation bias against persivul, not you cakez. Why?

Because I called a max/pers scum team on day 2 itself.

So it should be like a victory to me that I caught both scum on day 2. But that isn't how mafia works.

So yeah.

*slaps*
You're confirmation biasing by looking at everything from the perspective of Persivul town, Cakez scum. Persivul posted some seriously scummy shit trying to rush the lynch and you basically ignored it. At the least Anen saw it for what it was.

No?

Okay so listen up. Do you know why I was unsure of anen? It was because I was getting town vibes from persivul. Before I considered your case I decided to consider my townread's case just to be sure.

After I went through anen, I realized certain things which made my town read on him stronger.

So it came down to you vs persivul which I felt because of the evidence persivul is scum.

However upon reflection there were many things I did miss, some of which were pointed by persivul so this is not at all confirmation bias.

I maybe wrong but it isn't confirmation bias, that is for sure.

Also, scummy =/= scum.

I've considered both of your cases. So not confirmation bias either.

You say you aren't confirmation biasing but then

Since you are scum, and pers has so much stuff on him, he is alive and so are you.

This is confirmation bias. Assuming one thing and fitting the facts to it.

[SirCakez]

Well cakez, town really has no reason to control their behaviour. Or at least, less reasons to control their behaviour.

I am not saying pers is obvtown. So telling me to check his ISO is silly because I've done it.

His interaction with shotty and your interaction with shotty makes me feel that you are the scum, not him.

His outburst was legitimate. I can't see scum explaining their situation the way he did. It was too accurate to be from scum.

Also, why are you defending yourself by comparing yourself to persivul? It has already been established that you and pers have played ridiculously similar to each other.

You however have been more careful, and he has not.

Tell me cakez, why weren't you NK'd night 1 for basically being conf town by starting the wagon on shotty? Scum are afraid of town that are confirmed - or very close to confirmed.

Alex was not a threat compared to you. No reason to think alex was PR any more than you.

-That's not true. If town starts flailing around and cursing out people then they cause chaos and are inviting themselves to be mislynched. So town definitely has motivation to keep controlled.
-It is basically what you are saying though. You haven't even considered him as scum for several days.
-His interactions with Shotty were very bad. Little to no interaction, then he developed a sudden scumread on Shotty just when he became the leading wagon.
-How is being accurate in an outburst exclusive to town? Scum can describe their own play and curse at people.
-I'm not? You're the one bringing up comparisons.
-How should I know the answer to that? Ask Persivul, he's the scum.

1) You and me both know town doesn't always do what is best for town. Town also tends to play more in accordance to their emotions and more open with them, sometimes leading them to look very scummy.

2) It is either you or him. Asking me to look at his ISO either implies that he is OBSCUM, which he isn't, or implies that I am saying he is obvtown, which I am not.

3) No his interactions with shotty were ok, better than yours. You actually don't need to interact with someone to have a scumread on them.

4) No. Accuracy is important.

5) You are the one who defended yourself by saying persivul has done this or that. So you are comparing yourself to persivul.

6) I get that an answer was not available easily for that question, but it was more of a rhetorical question.

1 - Persivul isn't one of those players who "loses" control as town or plays by his emotions. You're doing this stupid reverse psychology thing of "oh town looks scummy some times, Persivul looks scummy, Persivul must be town!" and it's awful.
2 - You're acting like he is. All of your posts are shit full of it.
3 - Go look at the case I just posted and say that's still an "ok" interaction.
4 - Obviously it is, but scum can be accurate just as easily, if not easier, then town.
5 - good god man
you're the one constantly comparing him to me and bringing up the similarities. I could make a quote wall of it but I'd rather not.
6 - ok?

[SirCakez]

"VOTE: Blacle

I'm really sick of people declaring themselves conftown, even if they're joking."
That's not RVS

And the hypocrite thing is only part of it. His interactions with Shotty suck, he threw votes everywhere, he never explained his read on Shotty. None of these relate to the hypocrite thing.
p-edit: holy fuck
I think I could quote my rolecard right now and you'd still think I was scum
persivul was right, you are fucking impossible to talk to

[SirCakez]

Persivul is right as in you are a stubborn ass who refuses to concede anything.
Scum can be frustrated.

[SirCakez]

You don't need to be stubborn about shit
Anen isn't being stubborn and he's doing vastly better scum hunting then you right now

[SirCakez]

[SirCakez]

For comparison to someone who is not being stubborn

[SirCakez]

You are very stubborn T-T
Like I've been arguing with you for like 7 pages now and it's not affecting your read on me obviously.

[SirCakez]

*taps fingers*

[SirCakez]

q.q

[SirCakez]

I think the biggest problem for scum was three easy mislynches (Tex, Blacle, Masq) all drew the PRs. So we were stuck killing players with, let's say, not the strongest of day play. Which left me stuck in LyLo with you three very strong town players and forced me to 1v1 Persivul which was brutal.

[SirCakez]

I don't even mind losing fyi because I think town totally deserves it.
Also chilled don't take the stuff I said insulting you earlier seriously, that was just a scum tactic.

[SirCakez]

Yeah Blacle's play was cringeworthy. Would have been amazing for scum if he wasn't a PR T-T

[SirCakez]

It got me really far Shotty :p
My experiments in bussing have not panned out well though

[SirCakez]

You can release scum chat, not much in there.

[SirCakez]

The signal ended up being irrelevant anyway due to the quickhammer. I thought it was fine since it wasn't actually a code or encryption.

[SirCakez]

I also considered shooting Anen or Chilled instead of Ranger because of her hard townread on me FYI, but I was worried she would immediately become suspicious of her townreads if someone else was shot given she was the confirmed town and obvious shot for scum.

[SirCakez]

So you weren't bussed, right shotty?
Also note to self: never 1v1 Persivul. He will decapitate you.

[SirCakez]

Yeah basically
Also Max caught Anen's fake Cop crumb and we avoided him just for that. Didn't quite pan out for him :p

[SirCakez]

O.o
Well glad I didn't go for that then

[SirCakez]

To be fair I don't think I would have gotten half as townread without the bussing. I was basically coasting from that until the last day.