Open 657: JK9++ (Game over)

[Tiger moth]

Vote: Spade_Ace

[Tiger moth]

Why did you all sheep me?

Why shouldn't they? I would've done if I didn't forget it was 13 players not 9 like the other games I looked at.

Also, Fountain, why you lied?

What did he lie about?

Vote: MiniDeathStar

For 21. First sentence good. Second sentence bad.

[Tiger moth]

Second sentence was me wondering where he got that "concern" from, considering I hadn't even unvoted Gamma. Idk what's bad about it.

It looked like you were being defensive or trying to direct his answer. Not sure which but either is bad.

[Tiger moth]

He had voted me because he thought I was lying. I clarified I wasn't and he accepted my explanation, but didn't unvote me. I was asking if he had another reason to vote me, and added the wink to make my tone less serious so it wouldn't look like I was continuing to grill him. I didn't think either wagon was going anywhere or moving the game forward so I just wanted to get past all that.

The wink seemed placatory to me. If your question was genuine it shouldn't have needed it.

Did Spade post something before these posts were made? If yes, why was it then deleted?

I didn't see any post from him.


I like alban's 107.

Lane's 131 was good.

@ Secret Agent Jin: Was your vote in 142 rvs?

[Tiger moth]

Bang's catch-up was bad.Kop's catch-up was bad.

What was bad about them?

I spoilered the two posts because they were long af and I just thought I'd respond inline instead of quoting piece by piece. Klingon just happened to be spread over several short posts and that's why I made a separate post for her.

Why force people to take that extra step to read your comments? Replying inside the quote is annoying if anyone wanted to quote what you said because it would have to be separated out. And last but not least, I had to highlight your comments to read them as they don't show up clearly against the MafSilver colour scheme.

The defence of Klingon in that post looked ott. If she was scum wouldn't that be a great way to hide?


Up to date now.

[Tiger moth]

@Tiger moth:

I had a lot to say and splitting the entire quotes would have taken me super long time and they would have all appeared chopped up. I'm sorry I wasn't considerate with the gold text though; I'm using the black scheme and I haven't really tested what works best across all of them. I'll keep that in mind in future, thank you.

What's 'ott'? And sure, maybe. I'm not saying she *can't* be scum; I just don't *think* she is. I can't be certain of anything unless I have evidence.

If Klingon is scum, she may pass under the radar for a while, but I doubt she can last forever. I somehow can't see her surviving to 3-way LYLO and winning with this strategy. I think it's much more likely she'd be policy-lynched when most of her scumreads die as town and her confidence flops. In my experience towns that mislynch a couple times and lose their leaders to nightkills eventually grow paranoid of lurking scum and start lynching the kind of people that mafia would never kill while they still have the chance.

So for the moment I feel safe ignoring Klingon and focusing on other potential suspects. I might revisit her later in the game if I have to.

Sorry for being so grumpy last night. I was very tired.

ott = over the top

Judging by Klingon's join date and post count I doubt she's going to continue like that. How are you so sure that most of her scumreads are town? Looks like you're preparing the ground for a future mislynch or bus (if she's a scumbuddy) here under the guise of a policy lynch.

[Tiger moth]

@ Fountain: Did you miss this?

Bang's catch-up was bad.Kop's catch-up was bad.

What was bad about them?

[Tiger moth]

In the post you quoted I was speaking under the assumption Klingon is scum

My bad. Somehow I missed the opening part of that para. I was focusing on your use of the words "policy lynch" and your suggestion that her confidence would flop when her reads die as town. It seemed odd to use the word policy there, not just lynch. If we're lynching someone we think is scum, that's not a policy lynch. And it's townies who lose confidence when their scumreads flip town, not scum who are glad to have got another mislynch. I think that was what gave me the impression that you were thinking of her as town there.

And please start interacting with people who aren't me. You're not being helpful right now and I can't get a read on you if all you do is tunnel me with "she winked!!!" and "she's totally preparing a mislynch on this townread of hers!!!"

I'm already addressing others but there hasn't been much I need to comment on yet. Fountain is stonewalling me so I'm not getting far there and most other stuff that's going on has either been questioned by others or I don't think is alignment telling.

[Tiger moth]

They don't look genuine.

What's not genuine about them?


@ SAJ: Why are you apologising for your reads?

[Tiger moth]

Addressing this for the sake of transparency and completedness. The reason I was hypothetically speaking about Klingon as scum was because you suggested that super confident early reads (which I townread her for) would be a good cover for scum-her. I don't think they would be. How would scum-her explain her confidence once it turns out she was wrong? Because she has to know that's what's coming. I feel like whatever excuse she makes town would stop buying it after a while and lynch her based on principle (rationalising that if she's town, she's an extra suspect scum would never kill). That's what I called a policy lynch. Towns close to judgement day consider everyone a suspect.

That's why the only sound explanation I have is that she genuinely believes she's found the scum. Why did *you* doubt my townread on her? Do you have a reason to suspect Klingon?

I never suggested that super confident early reads would be a good cover. I had the impression that it was poor play and tunnelling you were talking about (from 213 and 216) where you said that she might have no clue what to do next if her reads were lynched and would be lynchbait. That's why I said what I did in 263. It didn't look right in view of her experience.

Do you have a reason to suspect Klingon?

Not up to now except by association.

I've been extremely transparent with you and everyone who accused me and you still think I'm scum. Why?

For the reasons I've already given plus the fact that you keep trying to draw my attention back to you while at the same time complaining that I'm looking at you. The bulk of 272 is a good example of that. It's a weak read but it's there.

----------------------------------------

Klingon is making a lot of assumptions in 275 and 276.

Getting an odd feeling about Charloux.

Vote: Fountain of Dreams

[Tiger moth]

you keep trying to draw my attention back to you while at the same time complaining that I'm looking at you.

'Nuff said. I've given my thoughts on you and I'm drawing a line under this right here. I'm not even going to comment on your 349.

[Tiger moth]

Waiting for alban to reply to Klingon's case. Got my own thought about it but that can wait until alban has replied.

Waiting for Fountain to reply to me.

Waiting for Charloux to explain his comment on Gamma.

Waiting for Kop to catch up. He seems to be over explaining stuff but otherwise has decent comments.

Creature seems to be working his way through the field.

[Tiger moth]

Alban, I don't have any question for you and I don't suspect you. In fact, I have a town read on you. All I was saying in 360 was I was giving you first right of reply to Klingon's 275 and 276 before commenting on them myself. So why the attack on me for that?

[Tiger moth]

I guess you haven't seen my earlier post yet, where I said Klingon was making assumptions there.

[Tiger moth]

I'm having computer problems so I haven't been able to do this today. I'll catch up tomorrow.

[Tiger moth]

Unvote

Catching up

[Tiger moth]

Just finished ploughing through this thread and now I'm tired.

Vote: Secret Agent Jin

Will say something about this tomorrow.

[Tiger moth]

Review of SAJ

142 - Worth coming back to if SAJ flips scum, but not scummy in itself.

210 - Reaching. He's comparing 2 different types of post (208 and 209) and calling it scummy because they weren't treated the same.

212 - How is asking how strong a read is rolefishing? What's scummy about trying to work out someone's alignment? It's actually the opposite.

258 - Was way ott in backing down from his vote on MDS.

406 - Discounts bang's reason for scumreading him, saying he didn't have one and calls it ridiculous without even asking for the reason first.

414 - Says that FoD couldn't handle any pressure and cracked.

444 - Votes Gamma for what he might do, not what he'd already done. Says he's been sceptical of him all game but there's nothing in his posts to back this up. So it's effectively a blank vote, like the one he objected to bang making earlier.

533 - He ditches the Gamma vote as that's not going anywhere now, but doesn't know whether to push MDS or Spade.

The next few posts are him getting defensive when TT looks at him.

687 - His comment on Spade's 471 is reachy again. What does "but doesn't continue on making it seem like that was good enough to pass." even mean? He says that Spade doesn't even try to elaborate on why his actions were not scummy, but it's up to SAJ to prove they are if he thinks they are, not the other way around. He describes Spade's 552 as "just one big attack with erratic behaviour, a small blow up in my opinion. Very scummy to me.", which is not at all what I saw in it. Same with 669. Telling someone to replace out is bad.

[Tiger moth]

Basically SAJ is making up scumreads instead of just writing about them.

[Tiger moth]

My comments and replys are in green above.

I guess you're using the MafBlack theme? Your replies don't show up as green to me, just black like the rest. Obviously I know what I wrote there but anyone else using the MafSilver theme wouldn't be able to tell which are your words and which are mine. As each of my points were prefaced with a post number it would have been easy for you to use that to label your replies instead of burying them in my post and making it harder for quoting and replying.

I'll reply to your post and the rest when I've got a bit more time than I have just now.

[Tiger moth]

What are the cases on Gamma and Spade? I'm not seeing either of them.

[Tiger moth]

Don't want to vote alban or Creature. Could go for Klingon, bang or lane. Maybe MDS. But that's not much help as none of them have votes on them yet.

There are too many I'm not sure about so for now my vote's staying on SAJ.

[Tiger moth]

@ MDS: Thanks for posting your case on Spade.

@ Spade: It looks like you never commented on 645. Can you do that now please?

[Tiger moth]

In #377 Spade responds to Alban's pointed question from #369 about what are his opinions on me. Spade writes a long post about how its good to see Alban, analyses everyone else, but again noticeably drops me.

Then almost as an after thought, writes #368 saying anyone wants to ask me question? I somehow dont like this pattern. I cant put my finger on whats bothering me but it looks weird. I dont expect a town Spade to ignore such questions. As a town Spade is usually very proactive, asking a lot more questions almost grilling people. I find that completely absent in this game. Initially I tried to give him benefit of doubt thinking it maybe because its his first game on this forum and he is unable to find time to tackle all the information flow from so many players. But I cant put aside the possibility of a scum Spade trying to lurk in general to avoid risk of slipping and appearing only when questioned directly. So either he is a disinterested townie or quite likely a scum who is overwhelmed, doesnt want to make mistakes. If he is scum, his repeatedly ignoring me in his analyses could be-
1. A given up scum trying to buddy up to a townie to take me down if he flips scum
2. A scum avoiding to ruffle my feathers coz I know his play style quite well?I am a bit unsure whether I am being paranoid. Anyone else felt this unusual?

I can understand him missing you once. It happens. But this goes beyond that. I don't think you're being paranoid.

I so, so didn't want to put up any defensive posts unless i was in L-1.

Why leave it so late?


Ok. I've seen enough to add Spade to my "could vote" pile. What about Gamma? The only thing that stuck out about him is the wagon he got going on himself as a reaction test and I think that's something he could have done as either alignment, but it felt more town than scum. He jumps at stuff a lot but that as well I think he'd do as either alignment.

[Tiger moth]

SAJ's reason for voting Gamma (830) is awful.

[Tiger moth]

I hardly think the last few pages equals "zero effort".

[Tiger moth]

If you want to compromise on a vote why move your vote off Spade who has been receiving more interest?

Or if you don't want that you could help push a wagon on SAJ.

[Tiger moth]

Ok. No love for a SAJ wagon so that will have to wait.

Vote: Spade

[Tiger moth]

Unvote: Spade

I'm not happy with the company I'm left in there.

Both. Gamma maybe has the slight edge. I don't think that self vote was town at all. It was just a show to get pressure off himself. And if worked. And just their interactions just seem so... Off, shady, fake. Just makes me feel yucky

Gamma wasn't under pressure at the time. It was Charloux who was under pressure there.


Lynches in order of preference:

SAJ
Lane, bang, Klingon
Spade, MDS, Charloux
TT, Gamma
Kop, alban, creature

[Tiger moth]

Well that's not true so I don't know why you would say that. I was putting a bunch of pressure on gamma and spade was questioning him on a couple things and so did mini. Charloux was saying he'd kill gamma if he had the chance. Why are you lying? And how am I second in line?

You were the only one pressuring Gamma at the point he self-voted (apart from SAJ's 444, and you could hardly call that pressure). Everyone else was talking about other things. Charloux wasn't calling Gamma scum; just wanted him out of the game.

You're joint second because your reads don't seem to have progressed since 422 and you've come in close to the end complaining that others aren't working towards a lynch and seemingly willing to just push any wagon while others are trying to work things out. Your vote on alban was awful.

[Tiger moth]

Lane: Did it really need 6 posts to reply to my post about you? There were only 2 votes on Gamma when he self-voted, and one of those was an rvs vote, so no pressure from votes really only you pushing him.

I asked you what the case on Gamma was, following your vote switch to Spade, and you just ignored me. You also ignored the rest of the discussion when you posted your complaint in 898 and then voted alban who you didn't appear to even be scumreading.

Vote: Klingon

I prefer this to the Gamma wagon but I can switch if necessary.

[Tiger moth]

I've looked at who else might vote Klingon and I don't think we're going to get enough votes there. I'm unlikely to be able to get on again before the deadline, except for possibly a few minutes in the morning so I'm switching now.

P edit: And you ninja'd me so vote deleted for the moment.


@ SAJ: Nice double misrep there.

But why did you say there was no pressure on gamma then say there was when I said there was. You admitted there was pressure. Which contradicts yourself when you said gamma wasnt under pressure. I ignored the conversation because I didn't have anything to add to the conversation. And if you wanted the case on gamma you could've iso'd me if it was that important. Or reread and found it. Did you do that? And I've explained my vote on Alban

Looks like I used the word pressuring in 1115 when pushing would have been better. I don't see that that matters. My point still stands.
You wanted to get a lynch but didn't have anything to add to the discussion about the wagons. Ok.
Yes I have looked at your ISO, and read the context as well, but wanted peoples current thoughts on it as I didn't think it was enough.

[Tiger moth]

Has Gamma claimed yet?

[Tiger moth]

I want to flashwagon SAJ but I'm pretty sure it's a non-starter so too much of a risk.

[Tiger moth]

Do you know his meta?

[Tiger moth]

I'll look at that Day 2 then.

For now, is there someone who's going to be around for a bit that can unvote so I can get my vote on tonight? I don't want to hammer without giving Gamma a chance to claim.

[Tiger moth]

Thanks.

Vote: Gamma

[Tiger moth]

I think we should take a close look at Spade. He was a vanilla townie who was townreading the scum and we had claimed PR. I'm struggling to see a reason why Spade makes sense as a night kill with so many other juicy targets around, unless it was a strategic kill to protect more valuable scum that Spade was onto, or possibly something to do with Creature's claim?

Maybe because Spade was familiar with alban's playstyle? But so was bang so there might have been more to it than that. Or maybe bang is also scum.

WTF! My reads completely sucked.I was seriously scumreading Spade, null to town reading Alban, and thought I will ISO and look into Kling.

Bad feels from this.

Minimum 2 PRs were there- hider and creature. So its definitely not TTTTTTT nor TTTTTT. It can be any of last 6 scum roles and corresponding power roles.

We don't know for certain that Creature is PR. But yeah, it can't be 6T as that doesn't allow for vig/SK.

Actually I've thought about it a little and I think the most likely scenario is that the mafia killed Klingon who failed to hide (to protect alban and possibly Fountain/Ted), orrrr they tried to kill someone else and doctor saved the day (and Klingon died somehow). Because like, Spade makes literally zero sense as a mafia kill. I think Spade/alban were killed by SK and/or vig(s). Doesn't really matter I think.

Why is this more likely than scum killing Spade, considering he's well known by alban? This feels like some kind of diversion.

Not caught up yet so this might have already been covered.

[Tiger moth]

Looking at Klingon's ISO, she clearly breadcrumbed that she was hiding behind alban to check him out, so I don't like that lane seems so adamant that she didn't.

Well, when we go into Night I can search though Alban's ISO, maybe I'll see something Towny in there. Maybe.

I'll ISO Alban, and with any luck I'll have time to ISO the other three on my Scumlist.

Because, Tiger moth, Spade_Ace was trusting alban with his firstborn. He was his top town read, along with bangthemafia and me.

Surely that's all the more reason to kill him early if he's wrong, before he changes his mind. Hoping that the rest of us will trust his reads after he's dead?

What about SAJ?

Scumread. Same as yesterDay. But I need to check out some ISOs.

[Tiger moth]

I haven't had time to look at this today, much less do the ISOs I wanted to. I'll get on it tomorrow.

[Tiger moth]

@ MDS:

So you're thinking it's HHK?TTT ? I don't think we've ruled out the possibility of 0, 1 or 2 Ts have we?

Creature isn't a killing role

How do you know this?


Having been through alban and SAJ's ISOs again I still read SAJ as scum. Deer looks town. Lane is likely town. I don't like the way Charloux is switching around but I think prob town. Kop, I don't know but I haven't reviewed him yet. MDS is town. Creature is an enigma but I've not seen anything actually scummy from him. Bang is most likely for the other groupscum.

[Tiger moth]

Who hasn't claimed yet? As we've gone so far with all the claims we might as well go the whole way and do a full massclaim. I think it will clear the air. I'm vanilla townie.

@Tiger moth, why do you think bang is in the mafia team? Either he pulled off some masterwork distancing or I just don't see it in his ISO.

I'll dig out the details on this.

[Tiger moth]

Hiding shields you from kills but not from other actions like protection or investigation.

According to the wiki Hider is untargetable for all roles, not just killing roles.

Have Creature shoot Lane, and have Lane jail creature.

Actually Mafia should have Rb so Lane would die.

Unless Lane is mafia, in which case Creature would be blocked which would prove nothing, assuming they haven't already used their block.


I'll reply to SAJ's 1455 later today when I've got time for more than just quick notes.

[Tiger moth]

33 46 215 220 looks like a bad attempt at making a case towards MDS
263 pointing out that MDS is setting up a possible future bus on Klingon (town)
270 seems like a back out of the case she was setting up on MDS
341 still pushing MDS and a slight nod at Kling
351 still refusing to acknowledge the possibility of Town!MDS
371 Town read on Alban (scum)
689 724 725 The start of the big push on me (town). I will come back to 724 later.
850 Half of her "could vote" players are town and she has a "won't vote" on scum Alban.
894 Added town!spade to could vote list.
1100 all her top voting list is town (excluding bang)
1138 1158 pushing on Klingon (town)
1162 wants to flash wagon me (town) which is a bad choice, period, on anyone.
1431 only now that we are starting to claim does tiger actually read the PRs as town

Above is my quick thoughts on Tiger and the way i am reading her is Scum but ill wait to vote to see what peoples thoughts are.

The first 3 posts you quote were minor things that happened right at the beginning of the game. Putting a gut feeling into words really. Not sure why you included 220 there.
263: Yes, I did say that. So...?
270: I admitted that I misread part of her post. How is that backing out of a case which I hadn't even made?
341: Yes, I was still explaining myself to MDS and I made a comment on Klingon. Why is that a problem to you?
351: We weren't getting anywhere with that discussion and it was time to stop because it was becoming a distraction. I'd said in my previous post it was a only a weak scumread so you're wrong to say that I was refusing to acknowledge the possibility of MDS being town.
371: Yes, I had a town read on alban. So... ?
689 724 725 Yes, I made a case on you.
As for the next few posts you link, I guess they prove I'm not omniscient.
1162 My comment about the flashwagon was a reply to Creature's 1161 and I said it was a non-starter, which is the opposite of what you are saying here.
1431: Despite the impression you're trying to give here, I think Lane is the only read that I've really changed.

This case seems to boil down to the suggestion that I'm scummy for not knowing players alignments in advance, which doesn't make sense, plus a few things SAJ has made out to be other than they actually were. Much of it is just statements of things I did without saying why he thought they were scummy.

[Tiger moth]

Plus you only commented on the points you wanted, you skipped the whole section about your votelist against town.

I addressed them here:

As for the next few posts you link, I guess they prove I'm not omniscient.

Why is it scummy for me to add Spade to my votelist but not for you to scum read him?

Also, what did i make out to be other then they were, what posts did i twist?

351, 1162 and 1451. I already said why.

[Tiger moth]

@Tiger moth: I don't think Jin is mafia. Sounded too uninformed and those things are difficult to fake. He could be an SK, but somehow I don't see SK!Jin shooting alban. Alban makes most sense as SK!bang and SK!Deer. I think Jin is town. He's just a little bad at this.

I think it was 406 that made me think he might be linked with bang, but that only applies if bang is mafia too. Apart from that I don't see much to link him with others apart from his mindset that people should know who is town or scum, which feels more groupscum. Not quite sure how to explain that better. Other than that he just feels individually scummy.

Tiger moth, Deer, mind if I VOTE: Kop?

I'm fine with Kop if we're voting for a VT. I don't see Deer as scum.

I'm going to do a vote count before voting.

[Tiger moth]

Unofficial vote count

ScumDeersAreTasty - 1 - Charloux
Secret Agent Jin, - 1 - Kop
Kop - 3 - Secret Agent Jin, lane0168, Creature

Not Voting: Tiger Moth, ScumDeersAreTasty, bangthemafia, MiniDeathStar


Out of those, I'm ready to lynch SAJ or Kop.

[Tiger moth]

The only niggle I have about lane is 1306. It doesn't really make sense that lane would jail Klingon after reading her last few posts.

[Tiger moth]

It doesn't make sense to jailkeep someone you think could be scum?

No. It doesn't make sense for town to jailkeep someone who has said they were going to look into someone at night, because it would prevent them doing so. But it does make sense for scum to block and/or try to kill them. Which is probably what happened and explains the missing scum kill.

[Tiger moth]

Hider is untargetable so block fails.

Just so we're clear. You think it doesn't make sense to use a jailkeep on someone you think is scum. Whether to block their kill or any of their power roles

No. I'm saying that Klingon's last posts should have made town you give her the benefit of the doubt and not tried to jail her. You said that you had thought about them. I don't understand how you could have read and not seen it as a crumb. But alban and his buddies would have seen them as a definite threat and acted accordingly.

[Tiger moth]

I have the nagging feeling that scum JOAT claiming jailkeeper with the night kill target just sounds way too obvious to be true.

Tiger moth, you see scum in bang+lane and Jin, correct? Earlier you implied that scum!Jin relies on scum!bang, but that would mean lane is not part of the mafia. Something doesn't quite add up.

I was reading Lane as town toDay but his claim to have jailkept Klingon doesn't feel right. I'm wondering if he claimed JK because he thought he might have been tracked to Klingon. That could apply as either solo or group scum. I think Jin is individually scummy but could be groupscum with or without bang.

[Tiger moth]

And if he indeed did, Vig is anyway amongst us, and will claim that later. So we will come to know.

I took this as bang soft-claiming vig.

[Tiger moth]

@Everyone please answer this:

Which scenario do you think is more likely?
3 of {Jin, Kop, Tiger moth, SDAVT} are scum?
Or 2 of {lane, bangthemafia, Creature and Mini} are scum?

The latter. Probably lane/bang.

Does the site seem slow to anyone else? I'm trying to go back over some stuff but it's taking ages to load.

[Tiger moth]

I'm not sure if Deer is reading less than he appears to be, or more than he appears to be.

[Tiger moth]

Also I think we both have said enough. I would like other players' opinion on our interaction. If they feel I hav been insulting in any way, I will leave this game right now

I think tension has been rising on both sides but I don't think either of you went too far.

[Tiger moth]

There's something I need to go back and check on. Too late tonight so it will have to wait until tomorrow.

[Tiger moth]

Okay folks. Randomidget just confirmed to me in PM that vengeful kills bypass an SK's vest. Let's do this.

So... My paranoia about you is now confirmed.

No mod is going to reply by PM to a question you asked in the thread, and even if you asked by PM as well no mod is going to give you privately information about another player's role without giving it to everyone else as well. If you really did get a PM about it that would mean you're either vengeful, which you can't be unless one or possibly two other players are lying, which is

very

unlikely, or you're the SK. If you didn't get a PM you could also be mafia, but I think that's less likely from your play.

[Tiger moth]

@ Creature: Who did you shoot last night?

[Tiger moth]

That is an absolutely terrible plan. We literally have a guaranteed scumkill if we lynch Charlie. Why are you opposing it?

How is it guaranteed? It's only a 66.6% chance, and I don't think he is scum.

[Tiger moth]

And it looks like I've been ninja'd again. I wrote this a couple of hours ago then came back to finish it off and there's a lot more posts there. So I'm sending it anyway before I continue with this or look at those.

@Moth and Deers: Is there interest for a MDS lynch?

No. If she is scum she can't win anyway with her plan as she either gets nightkilled or if not she gets lynched the next Day if she kills the other scum. If she doesn't the VT-scum can't give themself away by resisting a no-lynch and she gets shot the next night. So we need to decide between the other two.

That would have been easy if town just kept their trust in me. Idk how many more times I have to prove that literally everything I've been doing all game has come from a town mindset and utterly destructive to scum!me. Jfc it's super stressful to have to reassert myself over and over and over.

This is precisely why people are wary of trusting you. Town doesn't need to do this. Nor does town need to throw mud like you did here:

Tiger moth on the other hand has been super uninvolved this game.

This is not true at all and makes me wonder about your motive for saying it.

[Tiger moth]

I'll reply to 1996 later but to give Charl the chance to subit his vengekill I'll hammer now.

Vote: Charloux

[Tiger moth]

Vote: Secret Agent Jin

Creature: I wasn't lurking. I just haven't been able to post as much as the rest of you. I'll be happy to answer any questions you have.

My early thoughts on why SAJ is scum are in 724, and my response to his comments on me are in 1604.

[Tiger moth]

I can't prove a negative. All I can do is try to explain why you are. I ought to go back and update my case on you, but it'll be flavoured by confbias now so I'm not sure how useful that will be to Creature.

I guess you chose BP? That would explain the missing N2 kill, if you didn't have strongman to get through the jailkeep. It would also explain why you shot MDS, so that she couldn't give the result of her track on you if that's what she did.

[Tiger moth]

See, this is the hard thing about proving VT because those things could literally go for you too. I havent had a single night action all game. The hard thing about all this is that Creature has the most important vote all game. Anything i say, you could just say the same thing. I have zero idea why i am at endgame with you. I understand that you could have made a point to take me to endgame as you have set up a scum case against me all game and basically set up this exact situation between me and you. The only question is why didnt mafia kill me? It astounds me that they let me live, exceot that i was the perfect mislynch. I am newer, i dont have a full graso of all the MS meta plays yet, and its easy to make a case on me.

I think you're laying it on a bit thick here. Mafia only had two kills. One was on Spade, presumably because he was familiar with alban and bang's play, and one on Kop, which Charloux said was an attempt to get the SK. So you're saying it

astounds

you that Kop was shot instead of you?

My point with all of this is that nothing you OR me have done with whole game helps Creature because SK is standalone scum. The scum that have been lynched doesnt matter because they were all enemies to the SK. The only thing that sort of clears me a little bit is that taking you to the end with me would be stupid. You constantly jabbed scumreads at me and by your posts i should be confscum. It makes no sense for me to not kill you early on before your case was built enough. I would have happily taken people like Deers, Kop, anyone outside of you and creature. I even made a point earlier to state the fact that i would have LOVED to have MDS over Creature at the endgame if i was SK because she would have been more likely to mishammer with me.

By "early on" you mean N1? I guess you thought killing me then would point too obviously at you, due to my case on you, and on subsequent nights it wouldn't have made sense for you to narrow the VT pool by killing me. As for MDS over Creature, as I said earlier, that was probably due to the track.

[Tiger moth]

I was right along side MDS when she was theory crafting after the mass reveal. I was throwing out possible situations and putting together different combinations to get the correct setup we had. I will look back and present post numbers in a minute. All Tiger was doing was pushing for my lynch during that time or being quiet. If i was SK then it would be easy to just sit back and agree with people's decisions and ride the wave to the end.

Set-up spec and tactical planning are not my thing so unless I see something I want to comment on there I'll just let those who do like it get on with it, just chipping in when I've got something to add. As I did on a couple of occasions. I prefer to concentrate on scumhunting, which means a lot of rereading which is where most of my time went. I followed up my read on you because I was still scumreading you, and as events have turned out it seems I was right. The only thing I didn't finish that I wanted to was my analysis of bang who I was also scumreading. I got half way through then stopped to take a closer look at Kop and Deer when it was suggested to lynch among the VTs.

[Tiger moth]

How would you know which kills were SK and which were Mafia?

Bang and Charloux claimed their kills.

[Tiger moth]

Is there anything I can do to help you, Creature?

[Tiger moth]

I guess I would just play it as a VT.

[Tiger moth]

My last post referred to day play of course, not night play.

[Tiger moth]

Prod dodge.

[Tiger moth]

I can't think of anything to add to what's already been said.

[Tiger moth]

I'm here now. What exactly did you want from me?

[Tiger moth]

I'd have to go back and look to jog my memory.

I'm not new to mafia (or to this site).

[Tiger moth]

Only MDS I think. See 1939 for that. Not sure what you're getting at by my being incentivated to post by something. Most of my posts are that I think. From Day 2 onward things got a bit too mechanical for my liking.

Yeah, sitting and waiting till 3p LyLo to make a scumcase on the other scum candidate is like the easiest thing.

I made my case on SAJ back on Day 1, in 724.

[Tiger moth]

That was the first time I'd ever played SK.

I shot Lane N2. I can't remember exactly why, but I think it had something to do with not being sure about you. I'll try to recall that better later.

As to my posting; I wasn't lurking. I'm just not around all day so can't keep up the high posting rates that people seem to expect these days.

[Tiger moth]

I wasn't uninvolved, apart from with the discussion on which setup we had, and I think my ISO bears that out. All my scumhunting was genuine, and that included my early suspicion of SAJ. I thought he was mafia at the time.

[Tiger moth]

Good game everyone!

Night 1 I had originally planned to take out Klingon as I thought she was mafia, but when I checked her ISO to see whether it could backfire on me I saw the crumbs so switched to Alban to get two for the price of one, and to avoid having two confirmed town as I was reading Alban as town.

[Tiger moth]

1. When SK chooses Ninja / Strongman, do they get to choose ONLY one of these 2 actions each night? I thought everynight it will be a combo of both.
2. Tigermoth, did you mastermind the final day with SAJ? Or was it just a coincidence that SAJ was alive till end? I mean did you plan on day 1 that if you go to a LyLo, 1 of your players will be SAJ?

1. SK has to choose each night which one to use. It would probably be overpowered to have both.
2. It was just a lucky coincidence. I think it would be very difficult, for me anyway, to plan that far ahead as a third party.