Newbie 1920: North America [Endgame]

[Zeito]

VOTE: persivul. Only scum show up that fast.

Yo o/ This is also my first game on forums, so I'm not really used to having to post proper responses rather than hitting enter after typing three words, but hopefully it still turns out well

I like the questions, it seems nice to have some substance on day 1 other than just rvs.
1. I've been mainly playing a lot of short-deadline games in a chatroom (usually about 7 minutes, allowing actual read games rather than just info games), but have played a few longer-deadline games in other places, just not on forums.
2. An actual chance to pmeta myself I cant say how this will change on a chatroom, but I play aggressively, without being scared to joke around here and there.
3. In my better games, I act similarly to how I would in #2. In worse games, like when I play as solo scum, I'm too nervous to replicate the level of activity I get in 2.
4. I tend to rely on the scumtells I've built up from my small amount of experience, including scumhunting, townleading, etc, and (after a scum flip) how players interact. Looking at the motivations behind their lynches and kills is also a fairly strong way to figure out where exactly people want to place themselves.

I'll be placing my vote on VOTE: Skellen to start with (I think that's how you do vote tags...?)

[Zeito]

I didn't mean to quote teacher, I was just trying to see if I could figure out how to do vote tags ^^;

[Zeito]

Not gonna quote like 5 responses so just take a look at TheASC's most recent post - I personally have just placed an rvs to being with as it can sometimes lead to discussion (although being honest on the simulator we've played on most this rarely happens unless you get people to sheep you for pressure) but the rvs seems to have worked here because we're talking about it so much.


"this degree of lampshadeyness about an RVS, and then selecting a nonappearing player, seemed a bit forced. Why not make a joke? Why not pick a poster? How did you pick Sekaedy of the rest of the list?"
I should probably quote this... but, bah! I have yet to get used to forums.

It may seem like I'm defending TheASC here, and take away from that whatever you wish, obviously at this stage I have no idea whether they're scum or not and I'm not committing to any town read on them at this point. I personally voted Skellen mostly because they hadn't been voted yet, whether in fear of being seen as 'sheeping', or just seeing if I could get a reaction that hadn't been obtained yet. I assume TheASC may have done something similar. (Re-reading his post he actually said exactly that).

On a further note, somebody commented that the rvs seemed scummy, as if to fit in with the crowd. I considered whether this response was scummy or not and decided it wasn't, but in an... unstable way. One of the ways I read scum (don't think I mentioned it in my big post, oopsie!) is by how far players are willing to put themselves in the spotlight, and I feel that pushing this early would unnecessarily make them a topic of discussion. They may not have considered it could put attention on them, though.

I also agree that commenting "Why not make a joke?" is a little strange. I'm not sure how to read this, though. Could it be considered sheeping the original person who said it was scummy? Maybe, but I don't wish to lean either side from one post.


I feel this is how I'm going to be playing on these forums, every now and then popping on to summarise my thoughts on things people have said in a fairly rambly way.

[Zeito]

Hadn't even read the second page, seeing votes build up this quickly for what was essentially an rvs is going to give me a lot of things to read on their wagon if they get lynched.

I'm going to now reposition my vote. VOTE: teacher

[Zeito]

Not worried about hammer, just sharing reads and positioning myself as I feel necessary

[Zeito]

Better hope he's scum, or that the 2 awol players aren't.

Not sure what exactly it is that you're saying here. Are you saying that the two missing players would lynch me the second they have the chance if they're scum?

Correct-a-mundo.

Largely disagree with this, scum has no reason to quickhammer day 1, especially with both players quickhammering. Reading the wagon after he has flipped is something I will be doing, but I'm not going to get on him for now, as he has largely been pushed because of an RVS vote.

What imo is the difference between your (or any other) and ASC's vote is imo his need for justifying for shoving his vote in later after all the others immediately voted. Imo that wasn't even necessary as RVS is pretty arbitrarily as GW said in another post. It looks a little bit defensive for such a trivial matter. The vote itself is ok.

Then again, you know him probably better than most of us, would you say it's rather a clumsy newbslip by ASC or is that more out of character for him to explain/justify himself over such small things?

On another note one thing pings me off here though. Why were you afraid of "sheeping" in RVS? Or to put it the other way: afraid of what?

To answer your first question, his justification for placing an RVS later is maybe a little unnecessary, looking back. Although I would assume it's simply to clarify it was an RVS rather than a vote 'for no reason', it could also be overly cautious about placing an rvs. I generally distrust pmetas though, so I can't tell from my experience of games with him.

I put "sheeping" in quotation marks because sheeping wouldn't really exist in these early stages. I guess I mentioned it just because from my experience RVS votes are always spread across almost every player, and although this generally fails to generate much discussion without sheeping for pressure, it's still the most natural thing for me to do.

I wanted to wait a little for reactions

Meh. What kind of better reactions could you have hoped for with voting no lynch instead of pushing a person that is giving you scummy vibes? I mean you voted later when Persivul did the first step, but errrh... I don't understand the reluctance at first.

Yeah I'm not seeing a scum agenda here from ASC other than lamist-y posting, not unusual from newbie.

Can you explain what lamist means in this context with ASC? I know what it stands for, but after having read it several times (in both positive and negative ways, I think) I don't really get how it is supposed to get interpreted as it sounds like it can be judged in any way.

Waiting for Persivul to place the first vote before being comfortable to do so yourself is also a little off to me.

#23

@teacher - this was the part I agreed with regarding the "Why not make a joke statement, for reference. I don't really see why not making a joke seems strange to you.

[Zeito]

Sorry for prod - overall my only town read is currently on scum reading, and scum lean on teacher for now. Would like to hear more from Sekaedy.

Slightly suspicious of GrandWazoo also, but I don't think scum would have the audacity to pull this:

Yeah I'm not seeing a scum agenda here from ASC other than lamist-y posting, not unusual from newbie. Better hope he's scum, or that the 2 awol players aren't.

first in-game town read awarded.

and then both lynch the same player on day 1. (chennisden) Thus, if one were to flip scum I would likely dim my view of the other being scum. This could be considered WIFOM, but I think using that as a counter-argument here would be 'bad wifom'. I have to commit to some reads one way or another. Feel free to ask me to expand on why I think this is bad wifom, but I don't want to ramble too much about it for no reason.

As for chennisden, I believe this could be a possibility for scum, trying to push TheASC and waiting but only being confident after teacher's vote, but I'm not really sure if this is inherently scummy or just not completely confident / feeling it is the best lynch.

@Skellen, @TheAsc, are you both comfortable with the players you're voting right now?

[Zeito]

Persivul seems to have some decent reading following his lynch which makes me inclined to believe he’s scumhunting even though he gave this reasoning later. I hadn’t realised Sekaedy voted me for... forced wording? “position myself wherever I see necessary” vs whatever exactly Sekaedy said... I initially thought he was voting me purely for RVS, or possibly a gutread. Posting on forums makes me feel like I’m writing a letter, so I wouldn’t be surprised if my wording came off a little stiff. Reading into that and using it as reasoning for a lynch without being explicit that’s the reason you’re lynching it is beyond me, though. teacher giving a townread for this is also strange - I would at least expect them to be reading, and wouldn’t townread someone for it. I would like to hear from Sekaedy himself though, rather than teacher’s commentary on it.

[Zeito]

also my profile picture is pope rat, so if i didn’t use equally fancy wording to accompany that i wouldn’t be playing my part well

[Zeito]

I don’t like you townreading people based on wording, I didn’t even give that post too much attention since it was rvs. You town read people based on single posts, just like you did with wazoo. Your reads smell funny, you’re getting too defensive, which is what I wanted.

I do feel teacher has been making reads in strange places, although they have at least been making them. Sometimes I myself can make reads from places that seem very small, although usually this is in faster games. But if you find anything which doesn't make sense from a town perspective, I think it's fine to scumread off of that. I do also think they have the right to defend themself without being labelled as defensive - I can't be sure as to whether this is scummy or down to the player. I think your initial reasoning for voting him was fine, however.

Scum, I have no interest in continuing this if you aren’t going to answer my questions:

What specifically about my readslist smells fishy?
Do you now agree that your statement in 90 was wrong, and that sekaedy’s 41 did in fact mirror zeitos wording in 38?

I have no problem with you suspecting me, nor with your having different reads. I do have a problem with you ignoring the questions.

I told you, you’re just giving town reads based on single posts, like wazoo’s post or sekaedy’s post. I’ve already addressed this though, my case revolved around your first question lol

Even if I’m wrong, that doesn’t still refute my case on you, which was “who gives town reads based on somebody’s choice of words in a rvs vote” , so you still have no defence in my eyes.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree. I read off of single posts. You don’t. Ok. But “fishy” suggests it’s manipulated for ulterior motives.

Different reads does not mean different alignments. We clearly have different reads, but I think we have the same alignment. The key is to try to understand the other persons head - why they think the way they do, and whether it shows a consistent thought process and approach to the game.

Knowing what you know about my process, do you think somebody applying it would have different reads than I posted?

I'm not really sure why you brought up "I think we have the same alignment" in this post, it comes off almost as if you're trying to move them to your side. I'm starting to reconsider your lynch though, your responses seem mostly fine and it does come across to me as if you've been scumhunting.

Yeah, idk what happened, must’ve missed it. I don’t have the energy to have a debate on why your reads don’t benefit town, I’ll just leave you be.

VOTE: Wazoo

You’re still in rvs.

This is my new townblock:

Wazoo, teacher, me, asc and zeito, although I’d like more posts from both of them

What I find really weird here is why you suddenly townlock teacher after seemingly giving up on arguing with them and shifting earlier.

[Zeito]

Yeah, idk what happened, must’ve missed it. I don’t have the energy to have a debate on why your reads don’t benefit town, I’ll just leave you be.

VOTE: Wazoo

You’re still in rvs.

Persivul seems to have some decent reading following his lynch which makes me inclined to believe he’s scumhunting even though he gave this reasoning later. I hadn’t realised Sekaedy voted me for... forced wording? “position myself wherever I see necessary” vs whatever exactly Sekaedy said... I initially thought he was voting me purely for RVS, or possibly a gutread. Posting on forums makes me feel like I’m writing a letter, so I wouldn’t be surprised if my wording came off a little stiff. Reading into that and using it as reasoning for a lynch without being explicit that’s the reason you’re lynching it is beyond me, though. teacher giving a townread for this is also strange - I would at least expect them to be reading, and wouldn’t townread someone for it. I would like to hear from Sekaedy himself though, rather than teacher’s commentary on it.

I think I asked you already that, but you didn't respond to it. On what exactly is your vote on teacher based at? I think originally it was that "make a joke" comment by teacher that threw you off, however teacher clarified in #62 this issue. Is it now because of his Sekaedy "townread"? I am wondering because you were on teacher as the first person and when he was the hot iron that got discussed today you were rather a bystander and didn't persuaded him further.

My vote on teacher was mostly based on my belief that chennisden seemed like an easy push after he decided to vote for TheASC only after somebody else did. The "make a joke" thing did come off as strange to me also. However, chennisden has done nothing to indicate to me that he is a easy push that flips town, so looking back I'm starting to feel more and more like his vote was justified. Regarding his Sekaedy townread, I genuinely have no idea why you would townread a player off of this still, it comes across more as lurking than anything, but iirc I placed my vote before this, so my original reasoning wouldn't've been based on that.

[Zeito]

My vote on teacher was mostly based on my belief that chennisden seemed like an easy push after he decided to vote for TheASC only after somebody else did. The "make a joke" thing did come off as strange to me also. However, chennisden has done nothing to indicate to me that he is a easy push that flips town, so looking back I'm starting to feel more and more like his vote was justified. Regarding his Sekaedy townread, I genuinely have no idea why you would townread a player off of this still, it comes across more as lurking than anything, but iirc I placed my vote before this, so my original reasoning wouldn't've been based on that.

Yes you did before that. But that was not the point. As I said teacher clarified what his motivations were behind the joke comment, which was the original reason iirc. I was just wondering as you never reflected on that and instead just sticked to teacher until his townreads where the hot topic. Looking back I also saw that you were prodded though, so maybe it might have been because of absence.

If you're suggesting I only began to reflect on town!teacher when other people did, you're acting as if I can't let other people change my mindset. I can and will reflect on my reads and change them.

Prodge til tonight. I’ll answer more in depth later Skellen but I thought ASC was pretty towny. The questions weren’t really for him but to see if anybody would jump in the shade without any real analysis and Chennis did. I agree with Wazoos read on ASC which is why Wazoo for my first out of null town.

First off, I can explain / make up motivations for any of my posts, even if I'm scum. Someone else doing so doesn't change the fact they originally said something that came off as strange to me.
Secondly, "The questions weren’t really for him but to see if anybody would jump in the shade" is not a motivation that would make me want to lean town on teacher.
I'm glad he gave his motivations, but I didn't place my vote hoping to pressure him into giving them, nor did I place my vote assuming that he had no motivations. I placed my vote because I found what he said awkward and a forced way of pressuring someone, and this has not changed. What has changed are his later responses, which I addressed in some post above.

[Zeito]

@ those scum reading scum reading (couldnt resist), I get why, but I also see alot of town motivation for his actions. Regardless, in my view it is better to leave him alive spewing across the thread during day 2, because if scum he provides more associatives. Even if you think he is scum, I might hunt for his partner on this low-information day.

I’m a tad busy rn (I’ll get on soon and hopefully start actually picking apart the 3 pages of stuff (omg)) but the main reason I don’t want a lynch on scum reading today is because I sill think they’re giving us a lot of our activity, they’ve been helpful for generating reads on other players as well as themself, so I think they’re helpful for town right now. They won’t be if they’re a scum pr though, so if the players on them do have a strong read and are confident of it I think that’s fine. I would prefer a different lynch for today though.

[Zeito]

Regarding scum reading (the player):
First off I think there's a line between wagon hopping and changing your reads, one is scummy and one is towny, but I'm leaning the latter on SR because it feels like they did it knowing they could be sr'd for it #165 (and then later shifts onto Persivul).

It’s not shady, I’m just a really indecisive person and I like to be as transparent as possible. I advocated for you not getting lynched in my first posts as well, I still stand by it, but regardless of the flip, I think this is the most beneficial lynch at the moment. Sorry, chennis

I think being indecisive is fair. I think we disagree on how far chennis would be helpful as an info-lynch if they flip town, though.

Also, I saw they asked to be hammered at some point. I do not know how to read defeatism.

However, scum reading has been putting townreads on players fairly unnecessarily, #182 highlights my thoughts on this, I would like you to provide some reasoning with these if possible, even just 'gutread'.

Regarding chennis:

It’s not shady, I’m just a really indecisive person and I like to be as transparent as possible. I advocated for you not getting lynched in my first posts as well, I still stand by it, but regardless of the flip, I think this is the most beneficial lynch at the moment. Sorry, chennis

VOTE: scum reading

Advocating policy is something scum does.

Finding and lynching scum is something town does.

Like I said before, I had originally voted teacher after they voted chennis because it felt like chennis was an easy push. However, I'm starting to scumread chennis more and more.
#165
"Scumreading seems like he wants to prevent my mislynch, but then he switches to voting me very fast. / Shady shady" You do this immediately after, townreading scum reading in #163 without much reasoning to do so, and then voting him after one post. Was your original townread just that frail?
You did give reasoning, however - "Advocating policy is something scum does." But I do feel he has a point, chennis would be an easy lynch in the later stages of the game. It comes off more to me as if he was just thinking it through more.
I'm inclined to vote chennisden, I think. I'll review at the bottom of my post.

Regarding GW:

@GW:
To begin with I usually have troubles with reading erratic players like SR. What indicates town in his case is his effort as he is aggressively lashing out in any directions to get a grip on other players. Although it bothers me that he tried twice to after the guy who hasn't even been in the thread for 2-3 days and is now finally getting replaced. In case of his interaction with teacher for me the most important post #152 is where he explains his motivation. I can sympathize with that attitude, because in my first game with teacher I had the very same mindset with instantly jumping at teacher at the first opening to get a better impression of his personality, even although definitely not that aggressive as SR does. Also I am doubting if scum!SR would have been that bold to provoke such a 1v1 with a player like teacher on Day 1 considering the attention it caused.

It's that very erratic style of play that's striking me as anti-town. Wagon-hopping betrays a lack of conviction, at best. Directing investigative roles 77 out of the gate. "Pushing" a player that isn't here, as you said. Saying the chennisden wagon is would be a waste of time 158 then doing an instant 180 and voting them 162. Declaring "pressure vote" on Persival without actually voting. Voting me 149 for still being in RVS after I'd explicitly stated it was now a real vote 108. As for the 1v1 with teacher, I see both sides making a big deal over trivial matters. No problem with this in principle, since it often gives the other players insights into the two players' alignments. But in this case I didn't come away with any better idea on how to sort them. I don't know if his push on teacher was "bold" or just distracting.

Chennisden has redeemed himself somewhat so

VOTE: SR

Sorry if you've already responded to this, I'm reading through and typing these out as I go. How has chennisden redeemed themself?

My problem isn't with your activity, SR, but in the nature thereof. Bandwagon-hopping and "swinging at random" IS distracting, hence anti-town. As is your push on teacher, based on a single post (which was itself about the ASCwagon over a single post) It would be like me jumping on teacher over the RVS opening-tip analogy. Trivial points like this don't merit pushes unless you show they're part of a larger scum agenda.

As Persivul says, orchestrating wagons for "pressure" is futile. If you think someone's scum, just vote them and say why. Now nobody will feel pressured by your vote because the target knows it's not a serious wagon and you'll be voting someone else in a page or two.

GW has continually cited SRs posts as distracting, but it seems they weren't that distracting (since you obtained a scumread off of them). I'm assuming I'm being pedantic and you meant more like "they meant to be distracting" but I have to agree that there wasn't much to distract from - scum doesn't tend to distract town with themself, at least not from the games I've played.
I do feel GW is justified in reading SRs votes as wagon hopping, he does change his reads a little quickly, and they seem a little unstable. He has mentioned his votes are like this however (whether you trust self pmeta like that or not) and like I said before, he has recognised that wagon-hopping is scummy yet seems to continue to do so to push for reads.

Regarding Persivul

I think he's made some strong points and shows effort to scumhunt, although many of them do seem to be metas. I'm fairly unsure of this slot, but I don't think it's the lynch for today.

A lynch on me would actually give zero information.

Why is that?

Last time I heard that argument, it was from scum. Just sayin'...[/quote]

Meta reads like this make it seem like you have reasoning to be scumreading something but without making you show us that reasoning. In this particular case, I do agree it feels a little scummy to argue that, but I would like you to show us more of what you're thinking, basically.


I'm sure there's a limit to the length of a post that y'all can take and it's 4am so I'm going to continue looking at this tomorrow. I will quickly summarise where I'll put my vote for now though, and where I would be willing to shift it to.

VOTE: chennisden

See "regarding chennisden" above. A lynch on TheASC would be fine too, but I have a stronger scumread on chennis right now, as well as the belief that if he were to flip town he would give more info than town!asc lynch.
I would also be happy with a lynch on GrandWazoo (see above).

I would prefer not to lynch Sekaedy, Skellen, teacher, or Persivul today. To me Skellen is bleeding town right now, I've commented on Persivul above, Sekaedy is inactive, and I no longer have a strong scumread on teacher.

As for a lynch on SR... possibly. I also wrote some thoughts about him above, and although it may look like I'm defending them, I mostly just want to distinguish between being indecisive and wagon-hopping. Whether or not I would feel comfortable voting SR I'm not completely sure about, so maybe they would be my fourth option to lynch today. Like I said, I'll post more tomorrow and hopefully we can reach a decent lynch.

[Zeito]

It’s not shady, I’m just a really indecisive person and I like to be as transparent as possible. I advocated for you not getting lynched in my first posts as well, I still stand by it, but regardless of the flip, I think this is the most beneficial lynch at the moment. Sorry, chennis

VOTE: scum reading

Advocating policy is something scum does.

Finding and lynching scum is something town does.

Lynching chennisden day one gives zero information, trust me, he’s one of those players. He’s so suspicious that he would be a safe vote for mafs to jump on his wagon and lynch him and people won’t suspect a thing because he’s that suspicious. That’s why I’d go for someone else

Scumreading seems like he wants to prevent my mislynch, but then he switches to voting me very fast.

Shady shady

His point is quite valid though.

So basically, the reason that I’m not advocating for a chennis lynch is because he plays scum EXACTLY as he plays town, he is extra suspicious, lurking (like he is right now) and so I’d rather have an investigative on them because there’s legit no way to read this dude

We might not have an investigative (jk/doc) and a person like that shouldn’t survive til lylo. Jus sayin.

Trying to work on that - I'm a newish player so I have a couple kinks in my gameplay to figure out as town.

And also I might be an easy mislynch during D1 but keep in mind I'm also an easy mislynch during LyLo

If you're gonna lynch me, do it when it has least bad impact and reveals the most information

@GW:
To begin with I usually have troubles with reading erratic players like SR. What indicates town in his case is his effort as he is aggressively lashing out in any directions to get a grip on other players. Although it bothers me that he tried twice to after the guy who hasn't even been in the thread for 2-3 days and is now finally getting replaced. In case of his interaction with teacher for me the most important post #152 is where he explains his motivation. I can sympathize with that attitude, because in my first game with teacher I had the very same mindset with instantly jumping at teacher at the first opening to get a better impression of his personality, even although definitely not that aggressive as SR does. Also I am doubting if scum!SR would have been that bold to provoke such a 1v1 with a player like teacher on Day 1 considering the attention it caused.

It's that very erratic style of play that's striking me as anti-town. Wagon-hopping betrays a lack of conviction, at best. Directing investigative roles 77 out of the gate. "Pushing" a player that isn't here, as you said. Saying the chennisden wagon is would be a waste of time 158 then doing an instant 180 and voting them 162. Declaring "pressure vote" on Persival without actually voting. Voting me 149 for still being in RVS after I'd explicitly stated it was now a real vote 108. As for the 1v1 with teacher, I see both sides making a big deal over trivial matters. No problem with this in principle, since it often gives the other players insights into the two players' alignments. But in this case I didn't come away with any better idea on how to sort them. I don't know if his push on teacher was "bold" or just distracting.

Chennisden has redeemed himself somewhat so

VOTE: SR

My problem isn't with your activity, SR, but in the nature thereof. Bandwagon-hopping and "swinging at random" IS distracting, hence anti-town. As is your push on teacher, based on a single post (which was itself about the ASCwagon over a single post) It would be like me jumping on teacher over the RVS opening-tip analogy. Trivial points like this don't merit pushes unless you show they're part of a larger scum agenda.

As Persivul says, orchestrating wagons for "pressure" is futile. If you think someone's scum, just vote them and say why. Now nobody will feel pressured by your vote because the target knows it's not a serious wagon and you'll be voting someone else in a page or two.

A lynch on me would actually give zero information.

Why is that?

Last time I heard that argument, it was from scum. Just sayin'...

I should probably have separated these out a little.

[Zeito]

Ugh, I didn't mean to requote those. Apologies for filling up y'alls' screens so much.

[Zeito]

I'm going to try and post a series of shorter posts rather than single long ones, which will hopefully encourage me to post more and to pull my weight a little better.

im like two pages in atm but the scum team is TheASC and GW

Like I summarised in the long post somewhere on page 14, I do have an SR on GW and I would be happy to vote them. From the interaction with GW quickly defending TheASCs RVS post their team could make sense to me.

[Zeito]

zeito's thought processes are wonky, but there are a lot of them. This is the slot that is going to ping me scum but end up town at a rate at least greater than random.

I've debated with myself whether to talk about reads surrounding me because metaing yourself can come off strange in various ways, but I've decided to. I appreciate that my thought processes are pretty wonky, I'm not used to such an abundance of information. Still getting used to that!

I actually thought the townreads on me were a little weird, considering I haven't been posting much and it looks like I'm happy to slip under the radar and keep my options for a lynch open. I'm not saying that I think people are pocketing me, though.

[Zeito]

I didn't realise TheASC was hammered. Personally I would've liked to keep the doctor claim around to see whether it died during the night, but my read on it wasn't exactly close to town. Doctor does seem like one of the easier claims to make, though.

[Zeito]

URAP's reasoning that scum often greets the entire thread in newbie forum games was... strange, but if it has a proven rate then I'm not going to complain about it. If TheASC has been hammered, I'm going to leave the rest of my posts until after the flip. From there I'll start analysing interactions, either unreasonable pushes if they flip town, or forced defenses if they flip scum. If it does flip scum, I will have some strong town reads on some of the people who pushed it, because bussing day 1 can be pretty catastrophic.

Upon reading SRs reply: I'm happier with that lynch tbh. My point above regarding interactions still stands. "either unreasonable pushes if they flip town, or forced defenses if they flip scum. If it does flip scum, I will have some strong town reads on some of the people who pushed it, because bussing day 1 can be pretty catastrophic."

[Zeito]

URAPs logic seems sound, a massclaim today would stop us from messing up in lylo. I don’t really understand the popcorn thing, but I’ll wait my turn. I need to figure out my reads on URAP - him townleading as scum (wolfing?) is one of the scariest possibilities in this game. I’ll post more on this tonight.

[Zeito]

I'm VT. Writing up my reads now.

[Zeito]

First of all I want to discuss

TheASC

- he's not stupid, and he's not a bad player (imo) - I could genuinely see him going for a Doctor claim as scum, especially with a 2/3 chance of success. It makes sense as scum, because otherwise he'll likely be lynched. The problem is, there is obviously a very real chance he is actually Doctor. I thought the initial reasons were too minor (the #18) and also the reasoning of 'Hello everyone', and I don't see any player meta coming off of his initial RVS vote (that's generally what we do back home!) but he hasn't done much to come off as particularly townie to me - talking about himself and the gamestate, but rarely providing or showing evidence that he has made solid reads.
Apart from this one:

Hey everyone. Sorry I haven’t been too active recently; this game blew up very quickly and I’ve struggled to keep up. Hopefully this post summarising my thoughts and reads should help out.

Current notes/reads, roughly sorted from most to least town top to bottom:

scum reading:

Seems to be consistent with her original post stating that her “reads will change a lot”, which explains the 10 votes on 6 different people. She took initiative pressuring chennisden in #77. Seems to be actively trying to read people, as can be seen from having almost twice the number of posts as the second-most active player. However, a lot of this could be post inflation over trivial matters such as the “necessary to position” wording, i.e. quantity over quality. In her #192, she states that she is “filling pages by myself”, which also implies that she was pushing for quantity over quality. She also states in #109 that “You don’t get pressure with one vote, when there’s a wagon with 3 votes and one with two”, before rapidly moving around her vote… for pressure. Asking to be hammered in #203 seems incredibly strange, especially considering she was at L-3 at the time.

Sekaedy:

Lack of posts makes him harder to read (who doesn’t love a bit of irony) although I’ll do what I can. I’m not really sure of the importance of the “necessary to position” wording in his Zeito vote (#41) but that seems to have been a topic of discussion. I admit it shows that he read Zeito’s post and copied the wording, but I’m not sure that’s significant, never mind alignment indicative.

u r a person 2:

I haven’t had much time to look at their posts, but they seem to be very pro-town, quickly and efficiently slotting into the game and making reads straight away. Definitely redeemed Sekaedy’s slot.

teacher:

Early questioning phase showed an interest in getting early activity (#8). Took initiative early on, questioning my RVS vote (#20). As mentioned elsewhere, teacher spent a considerable amount of posts discussing seemingly unimportant topics such as the RVS analogy and the wording of Sekaedy’s vote on Zeito. While this may be insignificant, taking initiative with the VC in #238 definitely feels pro-town.

Zeito:

From the beginning, Zeito’s posts implied that they were trying to learn about how to play in this new format. Currently playing how town!Zeito tends to do – questioning people for information and not being afraid to shift their vote for pressure.

Skellen:

Questioned my RVS explanation post early, presumably to get more information about it, as it was admittedly a rushed post on my part with justification that was admittedly not the best. Kept conversation going on page 3 by responding to many messages with what I assume was an interest to keep the game going while getting information. While her activity level was lower midgame, it’s seemed to pick up again over the last day.

Persivul:

I was initially suspicious of Persivul due to the concise non-committal answers to teacher’s questions in #28 followed by a vote for me without explanation in #29. However, looking through his later votes I see that short snappy replies are the usual for him.

GrandWazoo:

Good early interactions with me and teacher. GW inspired conversation with their early points about RVS in #27 and QH in #33, even if the points made weren’t the best. Seemed strongly against scum reading’s seemingly random vote switching. Seems to be pushing scum reading incredibly heavily.

chennisden:

Was suspicious of my RVS vote in #22 but didn’t feel like committing to an early vote until Persuval had voted for me first, even though I already had one vote from Skellen. This could potentially be an attempt to create an early wagon, but in that case, I don’t see how being the 2nd vs 3rd vote would make that much of a difference. Stated unhappiness about “the amount of people on TheASC’s wagon”, although this can be taken many ways. Was the wagon too big or too small? States that I remind him of his own scumplay in #74 without giving explanation as to how I remind him.

With this in mind, I feel the best move from here is VOTE: chennisden

These are fine reads, although the order is a little interesting. "From the beginning, Zeito’s posts implied that they were trying to learn about how to play in this new format. Currently playing how town!Zeito tends to do – questioning people for information and not being afraid to shift their vote for pressure." - I was placed in the middle, with Sekaedy above me, but I couldn't really figure out why Sekaedy was there. Maybe you could elaborate on this? I know it's quite late for my review on you.

If he was something, he would've claimed at lynch minus one

Claiming VT is still a claim.[/quote]
I get a gutread feel off of this which is like trying to defend GW somewhat for towncred, although they weren't too strongly vocal about it...

I’ve decided on a lynch and I’m never moving my vote, I promise, I’ll be consistent, I’d like some pressure on chennis and I’ll give my reasoning after he’s at L-2, I wanna see something

Unless I'm mistaken, he's currently at L-2. 7 players left means 4 to lynch, and Chennis is currently being voted for by you and urap.

The thing is, stuff like this makes up most of TheASC's iso, which I don't really like. I don't think this lynch is a bad option, although I'm still consolidating my reads.

TLDR; I scumread TheASC slightly right now.

[Zeito]

Regarding

URAP

- they jumped in and started townleading (pretty lucky we have one, considering I'm too lazy to do so on forums and teacher died during the night), but I'm cautious to instantly townlock them for this, it seems like it would be very easy for scum to lead our game astray here, considering they were a large part of our lynch on GrandWazoo, giving most players the confidence to do so. I genuinely have no idea how to read these kind of wolf / townleading players, so ideally I'd like to look over some games to pmeta them a little. I generally don't like pmeta, but it can't hurt to give it a try here. Saying that, does anybody have a way I can get access to a lot of their games? Navigating a forums website is constantly a last resort for me.

TLDR; Still thinking. Need pmeta.

[Zeito]

Pers, who would you lynch today?

And actually I won't be terribly opposed to my own lynch. I'm a good player who's having a bad game. It happens. I probably shouldn't make it to lylo.

This reads pretty scummy to me - like "I would understand a lynch on me here." Fishing for some people to townread the cooperative player. Follow it with a "Just make sure not to fuck up lylo" and you're good to go, that's exactly what I say when I get heat as scum. I can't base Persivul's meta off of my own, but I don't like it.

And as for my scum teams, I would say:

TheASC + SR / URAP

chennis and Persivul's initial push on TheASC mean my chance of seeing them as a scumteam is smaller. I find scum tends to find it too risky to have their scumteam be two townies, so URAP and TheASC is a possibility. SR has immediately shifted the focus off of TheASC with his Gladiator chennis thing, which is interesting too.

chennis + URAP / Persival

Persivul has barely interacted with chennis from what I've seen, and URAP could possibly have made the stronger play of getting people off of chennis at least for one day to significantly strengthen the scumgame.

[Zeito]

Saying that, does anybody have a way I can get access to a lot of their games? Navigating a forums website is constantly a last resort for me.

Just look into his profile and look into the topics he posted in, there you should find all games he was in. If you want to see scum!urap as replacing late into Day 1 and attempting the massclaim at Day 2 too I can recommend Newbie 1916 as I witnessed that first hand. Don't know his town games, but I think he listed all his Newbie games in #342.

ty

[Zeito]

I still have a strong town lead on Skellen.
For my read on SR, it's not too far either way right now. I'm going to have to really sift through SR's content and do my best to form a good read with such an abundance of information.

[Zeito]

This is some typa confidence I really have only seen from a select few players before lol.
URAP + TheASC was a scumteam I saw from catching up on this - URAP has scumread ASC but pushed the other lynch hard as hell, seemingly hoping to keep him alive for another, get him lynched the next day, bus for towncred, and win in the next lylo. It seems like a decent scum strategy. URAP subbed in and immediately called ASC scum, got the other person lynched. They then made a new partner for TheASC... and has tried to lynch the other person.
It's needless to say I think the lynches today should be between chennis, ASC, SR, URAP. I'm still not completely sure on Persivul, but they aren't the lynch for today.

From reading URAPs iso, I couldn't come up with much. My pmeta is pretty lacking. He seemed happier to townread people as town, I think, and launched into this game with a similar tone to his scum game, at least in my opinion.

Honestly at this point I think we have enough people scumreading TheASC for them to be a viable candidate. @URAP, @Skellen, @SR, lmk how you feel about this. If TheASC were to flip scum I think his most likely partner would be URAP.

chennisden is a viable option for a lynch, I guess. I don't really agree with the chennis / URAP scumteam. chennis seemed to lead a scumread on URAP being pretty uncertain on them and having reasoning to do so. I also don't think SR + chennis is a thing (in case anyone thought it was).
Some of the things chennis has done has come off as sort of scummy to me:

Town block : ASC, Skellen, Zeito, persivul, scum reading

Don’t you dare go at each others necks after I get nked , you have my reads

Why do you assume you will be NKed?

Teacher was a "town leader" (which might've gotten him NKed)

Wouldn't better kill options be {URAP, Zeito} (assuming they're both town}?

This reads to me almost as if those two are exactly what they discussed during the night.

Personally however I would prefer the lynches to be between SR and URAP. The gladiator fight!
SR's recent posts read like me doing everything in my power to sway town when I'm about to be lynched as scum. Honestly, both URAP and SR come off scummy in various ways to me. But it does seem in his tone like he's ready to congratulate himself when (hypothetically) chennis flips scum. His overconfidence is tricky to read in various ways.

I want to hear people's thoughts on an ASC vote today before placing my vote on either URAP or SR.

[Zeito]

Sincerely sorry. I'm going to sit in the naughty corner for a bit and then come back and sheep you non-stop.

[Zeito]

And why would you want me to be careful I was scum. Surely you want the opposite from me - reckless abandon?

[Zeito]

I mean I was asking for thoughts on ASC. It seems I got a pretty strong response. URAP / ASC isn't showing too strong with URAP's lynch then, guess that was a miss.

[Zeito]

830

Yes, you already talked about my scum team, and I already responded to it, right above this post. "I guess it was a miss". Your reasoning makes sense.

[Zeito]

Maybe getting some scum reads on me are going to pressure me into being a little more active. It's not really mafia if everyone townlocks you, to be honest.
At this point, SR will push me as scum whether I vote chennisden now or not. "He bussed when I pressured him" vs "He refused to lynch his partner". So I don't really care at this point. So I'm going to think it over a bit more before deciding whether to vote either.

[Zeito]

I think me and you might have different attitudes towards lynching SR, you've lynched about 300 people this game, I've lynched about 2. By your thought process I should be lynching whoever you think I should be lynching, but I'm not going by your thought process.

[Zeito]

It’s the easiest scum lynch of my life in every game I’ve played, Town of Salem, Throne of Lies. Easiest lynch, no remorse. Caught scum.

You will regret this so much

Whether its through mislynch or when I win with town, you will

Unless you're planning on claiming a pr, why will we "regret this so much"? A town flip is unfortunate, but it's not like we've accidentally lynched role cop. These games often come down to lylo. This reads like panic to me a bit.
I didn't like the idea of chennis x ASC because chennis literally said he was sus with one of his first posts, but that could be some weird noobmeta attempt to push them apart. chennis saying it was sus but not lynching for it is also suspicious, but I can't see why he would vote for TheASC after somebody else did. Who wagons their teammate day 1?

[Zeito]

You can lynch me tomorrow so I can prove urap wrong tho

Suicide play rarely comes from scum. (Yes, WIFOM, but I would still argue it holds true in most cases). Has anyone happened to go through SR's meta and seen any suicide play from scum!SR?

[Zeito]

Can I also get an unofficial vote count for when I wake up? It would be pretty helpful, I've mostly been anxious about lynching because I haven't sifted through these posts to make my own votecount, AFAIK lynches are on ASC and chennis. Thank you in advance if somebody does this

[Zeito]

Everyone should sheep me so we get rid of scummy people, regardless of his flip, we’ll have tons of information going into the next day. Info+ getting rid of scum / getting rid of the scummiest looking town benefits town regardless of the situation.

You can lynch me tomorrow so I can prove urap wrong tho

I'm sorry SR, I truly value your contributions this game, but sit your ass down. You were quite ready to push chennis today, and even got into a gladiator fight with URAP at some point. I was the one who brought up ASC after seemingly everyone scumread them but didn't want to lynch them. I brought up the URAP / ASC scumteam based off of that fact, but we've already discussed this.

I'm assuming any scumreads from me at this point are going to come from the fact I brought up ASC but was hesitant to vote them. It reads like an awkward attempt to bus, no? If you're going to mislynch me tomorrow, at least do it for that and not for whatever dejected reasoning SR is going to throw up before changing his vote 15 times and eventually settling it on whoever the general majority is on.
I'm not going to self-pmeta based on how I bus in the games I've played before. I'll leave that up to you. Feel free to ask me questions on how I would say I play games however, since none of the games I've been in have been recorded on here.

Let's assume I'm scum for a sec! (SR and Persivul, I'm guessing your eyes just lit up).
- I defended TheASC at the very beginning, and placed my vote on I think it was Skellen at the start? (Skellen has since obv!towned with their playing and their vote on ASC). Seems reasonable. Can't remember how me and ASC interacted after this.
- Me and ASC decided to kill teacher, who had townlocked me.

ASC is absolutely scum. I forgot about the hey everyone. Not moving ever again. Nice to see you urap.

However, even though they townlocked me, killing them would make sense because of posts like this. I would ask though, what's the point of killing teacher if I was then going softbus ASC? It's just a waste.

It's interesting that:

- The wagon is on ASC
- When asked, I was the one who implicated Zeito as partner

Yet, Zeito comes in and basically gets into a 1v1 with SR.

This is cute. I acted snarky and sarcastic with SR because I wanted to, but where at any point did you see me voting them? This is faked and halfhearted. Even SR didn't vote me. But, with Skellen being such an obvious townie, you can't have two townlocks in the game. Time to start putting some heat on another.
I could have very easily pushed chennis and got them lynched if I was scum, but perhaps from your eyes, as a noob I was too scared to get a townie lynched, and instead wanted to softbus? That's a shame.

Anyway, I never said I was doctor, just that I was claiming doctor. There's a subtle difference.

This man...

Regarding the others:
chennis is a decent potential partner for TheASC. Like I mentioned before, I could see this play trying to softbus quickly to distance them, saying their first post seemed scummy. I still don't really understand the wagon, but after another player voted, maybe they thought people would scumread them for not being on the wagon?
Either way, wasn't on ASC today, and didn't put much heat on them.

I don't believe SR is the partner of ASC. He would obviously realise ASC is going to be lynched at some point and has most of the heat, so at this point he has to deepwolf. He would've put heat on ASC and wouldn't have suicide played with chennis. If he was scum and said to lynch chennis into him, we would've gone: chennis -> SR -> ASC, and promptly won the game.
I don't believe this is the play, so SR is now town in my mind.

Lol, not hammering this wagon that got to L-1 within 3 minutes. Feel free to associate me with ASC if she flips scum, idc

I don't think scum writes this. Everything in my mind is telling me to WIFOM and disregard my read, but I'm going to stick with some confidence.

Persivul
lol, this boi really started pushing me after asc got lynched. where is teacher

URAP
The defense against the URAP/ASC scumteam made sense, but I still stand by the fact URAP seemed to try and get anyone but ASC lynched despite holding a strong scumread on ASC. They did comment about this (I tried to scroll through but I couldn't find their response), but the fact they made that play still stands. I'm about null on URAP though.

I'm thinking chennis / Persivul -> URAP
Either chennis or Persivul into the other, into URAP.

[Zeito]

Are we allowed to link videos? I have a nice video that I think fits about how I'm acting right now. Or search for yourself "Celestia Ludenberg snaps". That's me rn.

[Zeito]

It only makes sense though, Zeito. It's simple PoE. A wagon that's built up in 3 minutes on a scum needs to have townies on them. So the choice is between the 3 of us. The both of you are equally suspicious. Chennisden for being suspicious af and not contributing, and you for pushing chennisden with ASC on day one. Contrary to popular belief, scum don't like being on a townie wagon on day one. It's a coin flip in between the three of us. You're probably scum, I'm basing it off of Chennisden being suspicious and bad as both alignments (I'm getting back for you calling my reads trash, chennisden) so you'd be the other one.

Oh... damn. Well, I'll vote myself with you tomorrow then.
(I was going to say "I'll nightkill x" but that brings up a whole fuckton of WIFOM that I don't wish on anybody. Best to avoid it)

[Zeito]

I still townread you SR, so unless chennis flips scum, I'm assuming scum panicked a tad when Skellen voted ASC and wanted to make sure they were on the wagon. This would make sense to me.

[Zeito]

You have had a whole game to make reads, but when it comes down to it you're only confident enough to base your reads off of the scum wagon.
I'm only getting lynched tomorrow if URAP and Skellen want me lynched, otherwise I refuse to be lynched. If URAP and Skellen scumread me, then letting me survive would just cloud lylo anyways. My lynch is in their hands.

[Zeito]

No, SR wasn't on them.
As for scum who panicked, that would be likely Persivul imo - your vote was first which is less of a panic and more of a decision to bus (assuming you're scum).

[Zeito]

I still townread you SR, so unless chennis flips scum, I'm assuming scum panicked a tad when Skellen voted ASC and wanted to make sure they were on the wagon. This would make sense to me.

the vote order was actually me -> pers -> skell

VOTE: asc

VOTE: asc

Fuck you beat me to it.

VOTE: TheASC

VOTE: TheASC

L-1

and I think this was the other post you were looking for

It seems like a decent scum strategy. URAP subbed in and immediately called ASC scum, got the other person lynched.

i pushed him to L-1 and was going to have ASC lynched, but I was hesitant to immediately push through the doctor claim because, and I can say this now because the game has ended

I just lynched claimed and real doctor, Chenn in our game recently. it's the gators game in my wiki, if interested.

That's also a reason why I keep saying chenn is lynch bait.


I'm absolutely fine with an asc lynch today.

I had forgotten you were first. It makes me townread you a tiny bit more. Feeling pers / chenn rn. I'll take a look at that game, but actually that does make sense.

[Zeito]

I didn't mean to upset you, chennisden, I love you. Love you too, urap.

[Zeito]

3 votes in 3 minutes. Persivul could've easily pushed the easiest "mislynch" but he didn't. He could've pushed a chennisden case and skellen was on my side for a bit as well. He was reluctant to though. Why would he turn to his scum buddy, especially in this situation. Persivul is a high skilled player. He wouldn't bus in this situation.

It's a coin flip in between the two of you. Zeito, you're most likely scum.

You forgot to say you pushed an off wagon vote with ASC on chennisden. Chennisden voted asc and mentioned he isn't happy with the wagon being filled with few people. As a new player on this website, chennisden wouldn't have pushed his scum that hard and neither would ASC push chennisden. So, through the almighty poe, you're scum.

I've written and posted my response, so at this point I'm going to start roleplaying as scum. Woe is me!

[Zeito]

Seriously though, I'm only happy getting lynched if one of them is from URAP / Skellen. If they aren't sure about me then me making it to lylo isn't helpful. SR is towntunneling me, and one of chennis/Pers is scum pushing my lynch for obvious reasons (I flip town).

[Zeito]

Sorry, I'm taken

by me !!!!

[Zeito]

I would’ve killed Urap personally if i were you. Your nk helped my poe a lot, I was starting to suspect teacher at the end of day one

It would help if you told them what exactly was the scumtell inside that spoiler. I write some REALLY long posts.

[Zeito]

Assuming ASC flips red, you

MUST

lynch Zeito tomorrow for this vote and post. No ifs, ands or buts.

It would help if you told them what exactly was the scumtell inside that spoiler. I write some REALLY long posts.

[Zeito]

I was going to respond to the first quote with some snarky comment.

[Zeito]

And now I wait for for 15 uses of the word WIFOM and a line from SR about how I killed my townlock because it makes me look clear.

[Zeito]

That was the worst shit that could happen to me here fairly obviously, for I get lynched before lylo then at least it wasn’t in lylo though

[Zeito]

This is very much a thing for me to get defensive about

[Zeito]

It sounds more like you knew you’d get pushed so you killed him and have started the day already defending yourself. The urap nk is the only thing you’ve got for a defence.

vote : zeito

“URAP got nk’d” is probably a much shittier defence than whatever URAP had in mind for the proxy 1v1 he was talking about before. You believe it’s likely that I thought the URAP nightkill would be a stronger defence for me than URAP himself? Obviously, it isn’t.

[Zeito]

You don't have to argue with the man willing to listen to a scum case coming from you. Big mistake.

First of all, you just managed to completely ignore my point whilst still responding to it. Was I wrong? How do you respond to this?

Second of all, you don’t seem to distinguish between scummy plays, and plays you don’t understand. You see a player not doing what you’re asking, not pushing another player, and your first assumption is ‘scum!’? A scum player should absolutely be pushing players throughout the course of the game, especially when they themself are under heat. Me not doing this is not townie, but I don’t understand why you believe it’s scummy.

Now maybe your response (assuming you will actually give one, which is unlikely) will be that I’m a noob player who doesn’t understand how to push players properly and thus is spending their time only defending themself. You would actually be pretty close to the truth here, this is ofc my first forums game and thus I’m not very good at ‘making a case’ on players with so much shit to go through, but I did bring up ASC himself when you were pretty reading to get chennis lynched. In fact, you were ready to get yourself lynched in order to do so. Has this changed? I’m not asking because I suddenly want chennis lynched instead of myself, but it seems like your reads have changed pretty drastically since the ASC flip. Did you not think he would be scum?

I’m not pushing someone because I don’t have a strong enough case on either Pers/chennis (my current scumpool) to push either of them right now, but I’ll look over them when I get home. Interactions with TheASC will be the first place I look. In the meantime, consider looking into the motivations behind a post rather than scumreading it if the motivations don’t instantly come from your viewpoint. We have played very differently this game, albeit I would say you’ve played with a lot more confidence than I have.

[Zeito]

inb4 he responds with flat out refusal to listen until I start pushing somebody, and then calls me scum for pushing a case half heartedly in order to save my own ass. Right now it looks like you want to push me over chennis so that you can get chennis lynched in the next lylo phase and win, but your suicideplay earlier still just doesn’t come off as scum to me still.

@Skellen, @chennis, excuse me if you’ve already posted about this, but if you haven’t, what are your thoughts on Persovul right now?

[Zeito]

Please can you respond to the first point I actually made as well. See “first of all” in my post. This was what I wanted you to address initially, which you ignored.

[Zeito]

This:

Spoiler:

Right now it looks like you want to push me over chennis so that you can get chennis lynched in the next lylo phase and win

Followed by this:

Spoiler:

but your suicideplay earlier still just doesn’t come off as scum to me still

Is a questionable attempt to manipulate me. You are omgusing me without placing an actual vote and then you say "but I still think you're town". This shit doesn't add up. If you believe I'm town, why are you having this conversation with me in the first place?

Hi, this is called making reads. I looked at the things you were saying and decided whether it was scummy or not. Did you actually think I was trying to manipulate you here? There’s no point trying to do that.

I will respond to the rest when I get home.

[Zeito]

What I do know is that you're way scummier than Persivul, that's for sure. So go ahead and get into a 1v1 with him.

@Persivul yo, game's starting, you have to be here

I'm here and watching. Nothing's been said to change my mind so far. I think zeito's scum who's in a really bad position and doing what he can.

Reads? The first spoiler is from the PoV of me being scum.

The second spoiler you admit I'm a townread despite what you have said earlier.

So it was an attempt to throw shade which you have completely refuted yourself. What was the read after all because that post didn't make any sense. You pointed out something that makes no sense and has no ties with the conclusion of your post.You won't win a fight against me Zeito, I'll act like the day has just started and nobody has posted anything.

Have your 1v1 with Persivul now.

Often a good way of making reads is to assume the scum mindset and find motivations from there. Pushing me has scum motivations, so I got a scumread by doing so. I wanted to express that evaluation, but since I still held a townread on you I wanted to mention that too. Is it maybe redundant to mention that you said something scummy even when I townread you? Sure. But I tend to throw out my thought process no matter how you want to read me for doing so.

You’ve assumed I’m scum, and are now making up scumtells in everything I say.
I’m not even arguing with you to make you townread me at this point though, there’s no chance of that happening, I’m just trying to correct what I believe to be a flawed scum read from scum reading (look, I made one too!).

I’m not quite home yet, I just had a few minutes to spare.

Since half of the other players now scumread me (possibly including one scum), I’ll hopefully make something decent that town can have a look at to get a second opinion of who scum probably was from my perspective (if either of Skellen or chennis decide to vote me) in an hour or so, for after my death.

[Zeito]

Spoiler:

Regarding scum reading (the player):
First off I think there's a line between wagon hopping and changing your reads, one is scummy and one is towny, but I'm leaning the latter on SR because it feels like they did it knowing they could be sr'd for it #165 (and then later shifts onto Persivul).

It’s not shady, I’m just a really indecisive person and I like to be as transparent as possible. I advocated for you not getting lynched in my first posts as well, I still stand by it, but regardless of the flip, I think this is the most beneficial lynch at the moment. Sorry, chennis

I think being indecisive is fair. I think we disagree on how far chennis would be helpful as an info-lynch if they flip town, though.

Also, I saw they asked to be hammered at some point. I do not know how to read defeatism.

However, scum reading has been putting townreads on players fairly unnecessarily, #182 highlights my thoughts on this, I would like you to provide some reasoning with these if possible, even just 'gutread'.

Regarding chennis:

It’s not shady, I’m just a really indecisive person and I like to be as transparent as possible. I advocated for you not getting lynched in my first posts as well, I still stand by it, but regardless of the flip, I think this is the most beneficial lynch at the moment. Sorry, chennis

VOTE: scum reading

Advocating policy is something scum does.

Finding and lynching scum is something town does.

Like I said before, I had originally voted teacher after they voted chennis because it felt like chennis was an easy push. However, I'm starting to scumread chennis more and more.
#165
"Scumreading seems like he wants to prevent my mislynch, but then he switches to voting me very fast. / Shady shady" You do this immediately after, townreading scum reading in #163 without much reasoning to do so, and then voting him after one post. Was your original townread just that frail?
You did give reasoning, however - "Advocating policy is something scum does." But I do feel he has a point, chennis would be an easy lynch in the later stages of the game. It comes off more to me as if he was just thinking it through more.
I'm inclined to vote chennisden, I think. I'll review at the bottom of my post.

Regarding GW:

@GW:
To begin with I usually have troubles with reading erratic players like SR. What indicates town in his case is his effort as he is aggressively lashing out in any directions to get a grip on other players. Although it bothers me that he tried twice to after the guy who hasn't even been in the thread for 2-3 days and is now finally getting replaced. In case of his interaction with teacher for me the most important post #152 is where he explains his motivation. I can sympathize with that attitude, because in my first game with teacher I had the very same mindset with instantly jumping at teacher at the first opening to get a better impression of his personality, even although definitely not that aggressive as SR does. Also I am doubting if scum!SR would have been that bold to provoke such a 1v1 with a player like teacher on Day 1 considering the attention it caused.

It's that very erratic style of play that's striking me as anti-town. Wagon-hopping betrays a lack of conviction, at best. Directing investigative roles 77 out of the gate. "Pushing" a player that isn't here, as you said. Saying the chennisden wagon is would be a waste of time 158 then doing an instant 180 and voting them 162. Declaring "pressure vote" on Persival without actually voting. Voting me 149 for still being in RVS after I'd explicitly stated it was now a real vote 108. As for the 1v1 with teacher, I see both sides making a big deal over trivial matters. No problem with this in principle, since it often gives the other players insights into the two players' alignments. But in this case I didn't come away with any better idea on how to sort them. I don't know if his push on teacher was "bold" or just distracting.

Chennisden has redeemed himself somewhat so

VOTE: SR

Sorry if you've already responded to this, I'm reading through and typing these out as I go. How has chennisden redeemed themself?

My problem isn't with your activity, SR, but in the nature thereof. Bandwagon-hopping and "swinging at random" IS distracting, hence anti-town. As is your push on teacher, based on a single post (which was itself about the ASCwagon over a single post) It would be like me jumping on teacher over the RVS opening-tip analogy. Trivial points like this don't merit pushes unless you show they're part of a larger scum agenda.

As Persivul says, orchestrating wagons for "pressure" is futile. If you think someone's scum, just vote them and say why. Now nobody will feel pressured by your vote because the target knows it's not a serious wagon and you'll be voting someone else in a page or two.

GW has continually cited SRs posts as distracting, but it seems they weren't that distracting (since you obtained a scumread off of them). I'm assuming I'm being pedantic and you meant more like "they meant to be distracting" but I have to agree that there wasn't much to distract from - scum doesn't tend to distract town with themself, at least not from the games I've played.
I do feel GW is justified in reading SRs votes as wagon hopping, he does change his reads a little quickly, and they seem a little unstable. He has mentioned his votes are like this however (whether you trust self pmeta like that or not) and like I said before, he has recognised that wagon-hopping is scummy yet seems to continue to do so to push for reads.

Regarding Persivul

I think he's made some strong points and shows effort to scumhunt, although many of them do seem to be metas. I'm fairly unsure of this slot, but I don't think it's the lynch for today.

A lynch on me would actually give zero information.

Why is that?

Last time I heard that argument, it was from scum. Just sayin'...

Meta reads like this make it seem like you have reasoning to be scumreading something but without making you show us that reasoning. In this particular case, I do agree it feels a little scummy to argue that, but I would like you to show us more of what you're thinking, basically.


I'm sure there's a limit to the length of a post that y'all can take and it's 4am so I'm going to continue looking at this tomorrow. I will quickly summarise where I'll put my vote for now though, and where I would be willing to shift it to.

VOTE: chennisden

See "regarding chennisden" above. A lynch on TheASC would be fine too, but I have a stronger scumread on chennis right now, as well as the belief that if he were to flip town he would give more info than town!asc lynch.
I would also be happy with a lynch on GrandWazoo (see above).

I would prefer not to lynch Sekaedy, Skellen, teacher, or Persivul today. To me Skellen is bleeding town right now, I've commented on Persivul above, Sekaedy is inactive, and I no longer have a strong scumread on teacher.

As for a lynch on SR... possibly. I also wrote some thoughts about him above, and although it may look like I'm defending them, I mostly just want to distinguish between being indecisive and wagon-hopping. Whether or not I would feel comfortable voting SR I'm not completely sure about, so maybe they would be my fourth option to lynch today. Like I said, I'll post more tomorrow and hopefully we can reach a decent lynch.

Assuming ASC flips red, you

MUST

lynch Zeito tomorrow for this vote and post. No ifs, ands or buts.[/quote]

Woah... what happened? What changed? You even bolded it!
Don’t worry, if you’re scum I’m sure you can pocket SR tomorrow and get chennis lynched.

[Zeito]

I have literally no idea why it got formmtted like that. It loses some of its snark power

[Zeito]

SR, you realise you don’t have to cross? It isn’t lylo. Why did you shift off me? Like seriously, scum!persivul would take a lynch on me with grace, he set it up yesterday. Why is voting you so scummy? Why did you OMGUS?

[Zeito]

Percy (can I call you that? or will you policy me) please tell me that isn’t your sole reason for lynching him.

[Zeito]

I thought it was because he was pushing you to lynch me in an effort to then get you lynched the next day, and you saw that pressure coming from him, which would make sense, but it’s not really what you said

[Zeito]

SR, can you confirm that you scumread Persivul more than me right now?

[Zeito]

Just trying to figure out where THAT came from.

[Zeito]

@Zeito:

I dashed through your ISO and I think you didn't really answered this or I might have overlooked it. But while I wrote about it: Why haven't you hammered ASC? As I said in my former post, I interpreted your post #826 like an attempt to rally people for a ASC wagon as there were enough suspecting him.

(I'll get to why I read Persivul as I did tomorrow, it's pretty late for me too right now and I procrastinated... nothing? By laying in bed for a while.)

It got to something like 3 votes and then I think I was just afraid to hammer or wanted to go through some isos a bit more. I mean, things are never really a hurry on here, so I don't get much incentive to hammer. It's not like ASC was surviving that phase, so I'm not reading too far into that wagon tbh. I wouldn't be surprised at all if scum was on that wagon.

[Zeito]

u r a person 2 was killed. He was a

Vanilla Townie

.

This is the obvious kill.

Interested to hear your thoughts on why this was an obvious kill. If it's so obvious, what does the nk point to for you?

this is obvious because URAP would probably find scum #2

and it points to scum wanting to not be found

(which - basically is nothing for now)

thoughts:

scum reading saying chen-asc team is not possible - i like it (ty for noticing)

scum expecting town to follow his lynch order and stuff - seems like scum upset that his planned chen/urap lynch did not go through and buddy was lynched

scum getting mad - seems fake af

You and Zeito are the weirdest players of all time. What is your read on me? In the same post you give reasoning for town!me and then scum!me , you’re just pointing out information without a conclusion based on analysis.

Zeito, gun to head, who do you want to lynch today? No explanations, just give me a name.

See, this is the fundamental difference here...
Maybe we like to think first, vote later? Either way, looks like you’ll have to shoot me. (How did u get that gun owo)

[Zeito]

You have no scum reads on day 3?

I don't appreciate your subtlety in regards to me not thinking when I vote. I totally have. It's a 50/50 on you vs Persivul.

I guess we'll see after the game.

VOTE: Zeito

(How did u get that gun owo)

What a lame way to throw shade kappa

oh my god
this is called a joke


i have reads but i’m not willing to vote yet just because u are trying to get me to. you overestimate the amount of influence that you have in this game.

i will vote. on my own terms. when i am ready. and when i feel my vote is on the right person

[Zeito]

like we have 5 days, bitch boi. i’d love to take my time and place a vote during the weekend

[Zeito]

i appreciate u trying to move things along but like relaxation, i don’t want to vote just because you forced me to

[Zeito]

See, this is the fundamental difference here...

Maybe we like to think first, vote later?

2. An actual chance to pmeta myself I cant say how this will change on a chatroom, but

I play aggressively

, without being scared to joke around here and there.
3. In my better games, I act similarly to how I would in #2. In worse games, like when I play as solo scum,

I'm too nervous to replicate the level of activity I get in 2.

Scum by your own admission.

A lot easier to play aggressively on chat-based mafia.

[Zeito]

A lot easier to play aggressively on chat-based mafia.

You're capable of playing aggressively in posting and tone. You've shown that since ASC was lynched and I named you as partner.

You're still not aggressive on votes, which would be expected from scum in this gamestate.

You seemed so happy to denounce me as scum from my own meta, I kinda wish I would flip red for ya

I’ve explained why i’m not enthusiastic to vote, i’m posting on phone and not in a position to run through other posts to make sure of my decision. I will do so when I’m happy to.
I’m being aggressive in tone, but not in my plays. I’m being analytical in my plays.
You named me as partner, but all I can say is a pretty WIFOM statement - I’ve learnt how to bus from some good players, and that isn’t it. It’s awkward, and shows i’m not confident in it.

[Zeito]

Actually that’s not true, I learnt by seeing people bus awkwardly just like that, and deciding to avoid making plays like those. Either way, you can’t really prove that...

[Zeito]

Can everybody submit the two people they want to lynch right now (one today, and one in lylo) so I can review it when I get back? I’m assuming I’ll be in most of those, but I’m curious to see exactly what the game plans here are.
Nah e hypocritical, since I haven’t really given mine yet, but it would help.

[Zeito]

I’d love to see urap’s reaction after this game, knowing he townlocked Zeito

This will be quite ironic after I get lynched.

[Zeito]

Still not voting, chennisden and skellen you’ll have to lynch the scum by yourselves.

Oh? Are we time pressured? Are we time pressured? Is scum typing out the kill right now? Am I in desperate need of typing out my lynch before the scum picks off another player? Or is this annoying nagging just you either being impatient or panicking to push a mislynch.

[Zeito]

skellen played mad that game yo