Mini 2136 | City That Never Sleeps [Game over!]

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Hello friends! This is my first game in almost 4 years... so please be gentle with me

VOTE: GuiltyLion

I think I still have some traumatic memories from playing with scum!you..

-Lilith (the smarter head)

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Will follow an experimental playstyle this game, probably modelled some combination of Not_Mafia's and Boonskies' play.

:X

I am excited to treat this game as an exercise in pedantry, sophistry, and massive wall-posting. I promise you townsfolk that I'll have one moderately large wallpost full of mafia theory and some information about the game in lieu of analyis.

:X

-Smart

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I thought you weren't gonna RVS?

-Smart

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Hey Auro, can you talk about your nom vote?

Also Smart you totally could have taken the pagetop don’t make me bus you

-Smarter

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I should correct myself. My vote isn't random. its Low Information

I’d like to hear your thoughts on nom too.

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I should correct myself. My vote isn't random. its Low Information

I’d like to hear your thoughts on nom too.

- Smarter

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howdy i have mechanical reasons to wish to be on all wagons

VOTE: BBMolla

This is pinging me

-Smarter

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Hey Auro, can you talk about your nom vote?

Also Smart you totally could have taken the pagetop don’t make me bus you

-Smarter

Auro, I'd like a response please.

I do think failing to pick up on obvious jokes can reflect cognitive load, and scum generally has greater cognitive load than town

VOTE: Something_Smart

Nah, I got the joke. The post still pinged me.

I’d like to hear your thoughts on nom too.

I don't like the 2 naked votes then a "pagetop"

I would like to see them get more involved in the game

Okay cool.

Vote her with me Smart

You said your vote wasn't really serious before. Has that changed?

Oh I just realized that Smarter is different than Smart.

Correction: Vote her with me Smarter

Yes, Lilith is the smarter head

- Smarter

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Nah, I got the joke. The post still pinged me.

What's the part that pinged you?

I'll talk about it after she's posted again.

- Smarter

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I do think failing to pick up on obvious jokes can reflect cognitive load, and scum generally has greater cognitive load than town

VOTE: Something_Smart

My ability to fail to pick up on obvious jokes is not to be underestimated.

-Smart

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wasn't the other head the one that said that the post was pinging them?

I assumed Auro was referring to my 28.

also i'm assuming smart = something_smart?

Yes.

-Smart

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i think that auro's present gimmick comes from town more often than not

I would expect that he planned to do it before seeing his role PM.

-Smart

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Something_Smart, have you not considered that there is a mechanical reason to want to be on the wagon as town?
To take up a slot that scum could have taken; thus forcing them to stay off of it?

Was this question meant for me? SS hasn’t talked about the post we are discussing afaik

- Smarter

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The lilith head I think asked someone about an obvious joke, and the quote I posted is a general rule of thumb. It was interesting that they expected me to respond properly when I was gimmicking: prodding me and trying to get me to engage is something I ~kinda~ see as a convenient spot for scum to sit on.

? These are two different topics - 1st is I asked about the post by Eve and 2nd is I asked you about your nom vote? If the nom vote was supposed to be a joke too then that totally went over my head. I thought it was not a joke based on your “low information stage” wall.

- Smarter

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Something_Smart, have you not considered that there is a mechanical reason to want to be on the wagon as town?
To take up a slot that scum could have taken; thus forcing them to stay off of it?

People who are good cop checks should try to stay off wagons, and people who are bad cop checks (either because they are widely townread or because they are widely scumread and likely to be mislynched anyway) should try to be on wagons.

Similarly all townies should self-hammer when they're about to be lynched in order to increase the cop pool.

-Smart

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I guessed you guys probably had a pre-game chat about mechanics and strategy - is that incorrect?

It is incorrect. We mostly talked about our playstyles and whether they would work well together after all this time.

-Smart

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Was this question meant for me? SS hasn’t talked about the post we are discussing afaik

I guessed you guys probably had a pre-game chat about mechanics and strategy - is that incorrect?

We didn’t talk about mechanics pre-game, probably because SS knows I’m trash at mechanics

- Smarter

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Uh hold on let me check

- Smarter

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This game title is going to get "It's Time" by Imagine Dragons stuck in my head every time I look at it, isn't it.

-Smart

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@Smarter: The expectation that I would explain properly, I meant, when I had just posted a naked vote on you pasting some quote.
@The Mechanics part: That's interesting timing on both your responses there (apologies, I know it's a minor thing), but okay

Lol legit not planned. We haven’t talked to each other in a few hours

- Smarter

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Do you generally not discuss play strategy with other heads at least after receiving a town role PM, Smart?

How to play our specific role maybe, but not public things like this. We can discuss those in the main thread with everyone else.

-Smart

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yo lilith how much mafia experience do you have?

~25 games (excluding games where I replaced out, including about 5-6 games where I hydraed, also including 2 games that were “dual” and essentially could be counted twice). Time period ranges from ~Oct 2015 to ~Oct 2016

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VOTE: arcyon
red flags all over that post above

Elaborate?

-Smart

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I thought 107 was towny.

-Smart

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I think calling what I'm doing "scumhunting" at all would be an overstatement.

This line.

-Smart

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But why would you write that as scum? "Yeah, I'm not scumhunting."

Like sure you could do it but I feel like most people would feel they would just be opening themselves up to further pressure.

-Smart

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Yeah this is pretty much the biggest redflag imo, this is like trying to defend yourself in the worst way possible? I don't know.

Exactly. Why would you try to defend yourself in the worst way possible?

-Smart

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Okay but in all seriousness I'm not assuming scum are hypercalculating. I'm just assuming they think before they speak.

-Smart

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p-edit: oh you're going the 'too scummy to be scum' route I guess

I guess that's the type of argument that you could say I'm making. But really it's just that it's superficially scummy-looking.

-Smart

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I haven't hydra'd in a while. Having to sign each post when they're all one-liners is annoying

-Smart

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I just wished he were more indignant. I accused him! Why would he be so willing to acknowledge that they were weak questions but then also suggest that I'm a good vote because I pushed him on it, it also feels like there's dissonance there.

So it sounds like you don't like his response because it was unexpected?

-Smart

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I would like to see more from the acryon slot, I don’t think there’s enough to really make a read yet.

Please correct me if I’m wrong here since my theory skills leave something to be desired - in terms of theory, I think we can’t leave Eve alive when (if) we get to LYLO. I can’t imagine she’ll be the NK unless scum believes her claim, as there’s just enough WIFOM there to produce confusion for us. Not saying she needs to be the lynch today (although I’d be okay with it if we can’t compromise anywhere else), but I do think she needs to be lynched before LYLO. Thoughts?

I’m actually pretty interested in Allomancer as well. He’s only been in thread 3 times and all of those times it was to talk about an “RVS” vote

- Smarter

Pedit: acryon has posted more! I’ll read and post my thoughts on that

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Re: Fluffing -- She went from questioning you to fluffing you here (ironically while talking about fluffing).

It doesn’t seem like the link is going to a post, what’s the post # for this

- Smarter

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So it’s a lot harder than I thought it would be to write up posts for this game while on work calls...

@acryon, 170 feels like attempting to show that you’re giving content and then filling in the spaces with insubstantial.... stuff. Even the content parts are insubstantial, like there’s no attempt to gather more info for reads. Re: The part with GL you don’t even seem to be pushing GL more, which I would expect if you were town. The rest of it seems like posting just to look like you’re doing stuff.

Like here’s your post:
- you don’t like GL but don’t actually try to push him or ask questions to try to understand GL’s thoughts
- still on an argument about meta from several pages ago. As GL said, it’s as if you were trying to create a “gotcha!” moment and failed and now feel like you have to defend yourself because someone questioned you on why you did that in the first place
- response to gender mistake
- skitter too dumb? But again, no push resulting from it, like you’re hoping someone else will jump on it instead
- joke about nom voting you but you haven’t questioned or pushed nom, even though nom is voting you based on the same post as GL. Why call out GL but not nom?
- once again, you say GL is wrong but don’t make an attempt to push or understand GL’s motives
- explaining your username

My main question is:

how do you feel about nom? She seems to be scumreading you for similar reasons to GL, but why haven’t you addressed that and are focusing on GL’s vote? What is your nom read? Secondarily, why have you not pushed GL further? Or for that matter, skitter?

Overall I feel like you are not attempting to engage others but more waiting for them to engage you. If you’re town, I would expect/like to see more pushing and questioning.

———

I‘m leaning towards town!GL. GL seems to be transparent in his thought process and reasoning, and his thoughts about acryon and skitter mirrored what I was thinking as I read through.

What are people’s thoughts on Auro? I just reread his ISO and there’s less content there than I remember. I like his most recent content a bit more as it seems he’s developing a line of questioning towards GL that (I think?) is trying to understand GL’s thought process, but a lot of his ISO consists of fixating on GL’s usage of the word “paranoid” and questioning us on mechanics. I’d like to hear what other people are thinking here.

I have to confer with my other head but I’d be on board with an acryon lynch today. Like I said, it feels like he’s deliberately keeping his pushes at arm’s length and not engaging with them. Also in terms of the skitter and GL comments he’s been making, I have yet to see a post about either of those slots that is actually directed towards the person he is pushing.

Pedit: alright another post to respond to.

Why do you like Eve? She’s had about 0 actual content this game

What about skitter did you not like? Does this go back to the “too dumb” thing you said in 170? Why do you think what she said is “too dumb”?

Once again, feels like you are trying to have others push GL for you, I don’t see any attempts from you to engage with that slot beyond surface level. Same goes for skitter.

Of course you agree with nom’s 149, she’s defending you!! my questions to you above still stand.


- Smarter

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Oooh got the pagetop!!

@ nom why'd you change your vote from bbmolla to me at that juncture?

scummy opening from what I know about your meta
my vote would be somewhere else right now but seriously if you're town with me this game should honestly go pretty fast, you're high sort priority

This reverses my previous stance on Nom.

Auro, can you explain what about this made you reverse your previous stance and townread nom?

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I’m not really seeing the reasoning for town!nom.

I think a big cause of my uncertainty is the lack of push from acryon, who’s defending himself from GL and voting GL for it but didn’t even react/respond to nom’s comments on acryon’s post (which were in line with GL’s comments). The more I think about it, the weirder it seems.

- Smarter

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That awkward moment when to want to vote and unvote someone at the same time.
Blergh
VOTE: Eve let's see what happens here

That awkward moment when to want to vote and unvote someone at the same time.
Blergh
VOTE: Eve let's see what happens here

what are you thinking about their entrance?

Moreso than what they posted the bbmolla vote makes no sense and I lowkey think they just sheeped my vote considering mine was just before

Well why did you vote BBMolla if it wasn't sheeping or for building a wagon

VOTE: Karnage

he told me he was scum in our pT

i voted him because this felt like a overdone i'm scum joke

there's more creative ways to call yourself scum surely

like i only vote my townreads because i'm usually wrong and it's the best way for me to flip scum

also as the traffic analyst i should be the hammer of any and all wagons

if something hits L-1 i am swinging in

Hey nom, what did you get out of this vote/push? Are you satisfied with the Eve slot/do you have a read here? You dropped the questioning on Eve after she responded but never said anything about what came of it.

- Smarter

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Alright, I think I'm satisfied with nom and Auro's responses to my questions atm.

I‘m leaning towards town!GL. GL seems to be transparent in his thought process and reasoning

Subject: Newbie 1995 Mafia PT

okay so I've played with Karnage / George before. George is somewhat mislynchable IIRC, Karnage I think I've only seen his scumgame but he seems competent, we might have to plan on NKing him

generally I don't like to bus - people will WIFOM their way out of a lot of associatives as long as you are actually engaging with your partner to some degree - and my goal is to make sure all my pushes sound reasonable/genuine. It works pretty well in newbie games cause newbies often fall for the logical = townie fallacy and there are usually enough lurksacks / people-playing-weird to burn through the first couple mislynches. but lemme know what your experience is, what you feel comfortable with, etc

I just wanted to add this here, sorry for the shade, GuiltyLion

I'm not gonna say I'm incredible at reading GL because 1) I've failed several times; and 2) it's been a few years now since I played with him, but I do also

feel

like this is town!GL. I know that's not really a good explanation but tbh my best reads usually can't be explained so... /shrug

What are people’s thoughts on Auro? I just reread his ISO and there’s less content there than I remember. I like his most recent content a bit more as it seems he’s developing a line of questioning towards GL that (I think?) is trying to understand GL’s thought process, but a lot of his ISO consists of fixating on GL’s usage of the word “paranoid” and questioning us on mechanics.

Have you not noticed me forming a townbloc already, consisting of you, Karnage and Nomnomnom?
I believe I've also listed reasons for townreading them - if you disagree on any at any point of time, let me know.

Yeah, I originally had good feelings about the townbloc, but then I reread your ISO this morning and I'm not as solid in my read on you as I was when you initially townblocced (sp?). So I'm just trying to get a feel for everyone's reads and see where they're at. In particular I think I'd like to hear from GL since he had some misgivings on you in the beginning.

I have to go back to working but will respond to acryon's posts as soon as I can.

- Smarter

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Yeah, I originally had good feelings about the townbloc, but then I reread your ISO this morning and I'm not as solid in my read on you as I was when you initially townblocced (sp?). So I'm just trying to get a feel for everyone's reads and see where they're at.

Sure, that's fair. But you do agree on my current proposed townbloc, right?

I'm good with karnage atm, and feeling better about nom after her most recent back-and-forth with acryon. I wouldn't say yall are super strong townreads for me, and nom in particular I'm still fairly null on, but I'm probably more okay with this being today's wagon over everyone else. I mean, we have:

• Eve - only shitposting so far
  
• Saurusaurus Rex (butchered sp, whatever) - hasn't even come back to the thread since his RVS vote
  
• Allomancer, who first said his Eve vote wasn't that serious then tried to get us to wagon her, then tried to "gotcha" nom and disappeared
  
• BBmolla, who seems to be having it rough irl so hasn't posted

Not comfortable with any of them because I have little to actually form a read on those slots. I'd want to include GL since I'm still leaning town on him but it seems like no one else is.

Btw @mod, when will sarusuarus rex or however you spell it be prodded?

Acryon, your posts are not doing anything to change my mind. I apologize for misremembering the posting order/which post that nom had originally voted you for, but even in the most recent conversation, you were answering questions but not adding anything of substance or asking questions. As I said, I would expect town to be reaching out more and putting out feelers even on D1 - doesn't have to be "making a big case" like you're implying I said (also, way to put words in my mouth, because that is not what I said), but just engaging with others. And I'm not seeing that from you, it feels like you're being super passive in terms of interacting with other players.

@nom, what are your thoughts on acryon after your most recent convo and subsequent pondering? you seem to have backed off of that slot pretty quickly earlier, why was that?

- Smarter

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according to my own vig-minded scumhunting I would be shooting Allo right now so I should probably VOTE: Allo
This lack of commitment on every single subject so far is concerning and feels like scum who doesn't want to commit to reads just yet.

100% agree with this, which makes me feel better about the nom slot as well.

I'd definitely like to see something from Allomancer that isn't related to stuff from 6 pages ago, given there's been a lot more content than when he last posted. He just picked out a bunch of random and mostly irrelevant pieces of posts from people to respond to. I especially would like to hear thoughts about the GL vs. acryon stuff, given that he seemed to have been defending acryon before and is now shading acryon (and btw, copied my reasoning for said shade). I mean, this also applies to him - makes a post to throw some shade on acryon who is arguably currently getting the most shade in the game, then immediately drops it and doesn't attempt to engage acryon whatsoever. Shade with no bite.

Allomancer, at a minimum I'd like to hear reads from you.

Alas, my other head is apparently MIA so I am claiming my vote rights now.
VOTE: Allomancer

- Smarter

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Acryon, your posts are not doing anything to change my mind. I apologize for misremembering the posting order/which post that nom had originally voted you for, but even in the most recent conversation, you were answering questions but not adding anything of substance or asking questions. As I said, I would expect town to be reaching out more and putting out feelers even on D1 - doesn't have to be "making a big case" like you're implying I said (also, way to put words in my mouth, because that is not what I said), but just engaging with others. And I'm not seeing that from you, it feels like you're being super passive in terms of interacting with other players.

I don't disagree with you as much on how the game should be played as I do your characterization of how I've played the game. Ideally we'd agree on both if we're on the same side (which I think we are), but c'est la vie. Moving on.

If [acryon] himself can see that his post didn't look like scumhunting then he needs to give more explanation as to whether and/or why he finds me suspicious for calling that out.

I thought of a (probably bad) analogy.

GuiltyLion rolls up on acryon's house and sees him working in the front by some soil where he's planting seeds. GuiltyLion says "Wow that's a bad garden. You don't even have anything growing." Not only would it be 1) disingenuous and silly to criticize the garden at that stage, it's also 2) possible acryon is planting the seeds exactly right, and it

is

going to be a good garden. I'm less interested in arguing 2), but 1) is why I have an issue with what GL did.

I like Eve.

Mostly tone, especially in the back and forth with skitter where I felt skitter appeared inauthentic--Eve appeared the opposite.

When you say you like Eve, it's not clear — do you townread Eve or do you just enjoy her posts?

Townread.

Thanks for your response. I think I might be confbiasing myself atm so I'm going to back off for now and come back to this later. Seems like SS saw something towny in your posts so I'll need to discuss with him.

- SMarter

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I thought of a (probably bad) analogy.

GuiltyLion rolls up on acryon's house and sees him working in the front by some soil where he's planting seeds. GuiltyLion says "Wow that's a bad garden. You don't even have anything growing."

I like this guy.

-Smart

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This lack of commitment on every single subject so far is concerning and feels like scum who doesn't want to commit to reads just yet.

How do you differentiate scum who doesn't want to commit to reads just yet from town who doesn't want to commit to reads just yet?

-Smart

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Votecount 1.4

Target	Wagon
nomnomnom (2)	Karnage (26), Eve (118)
Allomancer (2)	nomnomnom (211), The Limit Does Not Exist (213)
acryon (2)	skitter30 (104), Allomancer (215)
The Limit Does Not Exist (1)	Auro (42)
GuiltyLion (1)	acryon (15)
Auro (1)	GuiltyLion (4)
Karnage (1)	BBmolla (7)
Not Voting (1)	SausasaurusRex (219)

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-05-03 00:18:59).

Btw @mod, when will sarusuarus rex or however you spell it be prodded?

I prod players after 48 hours of inactivity.

Thanks @mod. Btw I think GuiltyLion should be voting acryon in this VC.

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Votecount 1.2

Target	Wagon
GuiltyLion (2)	The Limit Does Not Exist (5), acryon (15)
The Limit Does Not Exist (2)	SausasaurusRex (6), Auro (42)
acryon (2)	skitter30 (104), nomnomnom (108)
nomnomnom (2)	Karnage (26), Eve (118)
Eve (1)	Allomancer (14)
Auro (1)	GuiltyLion (4)
Karnage (1)	BBmolla (7)
Not Voting (0)

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-05-03 00:18:59).

@mod same here, I think GuiltyLion should be voting acryon starting at 106

this is correct. previous votecounts have been corrected. thanks

-nsg

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Multi-quoting is an absolute bitch on mobile so I’ll respond to things when I get to my laptop.

- Smarter

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Following up on some questions I never got answers to:

1) @ nom & GL

What are people’s thoughts on Auro? I just reread his ISO and there’s less content there than I remember. I like his most recent content a bit more as it seems he’s developing a line of questioning towards GL that (I think?) is trying to understand GL’s thought process, but a lot of his ISO consists of fixating on GL’s usage of the word “paranoid” and questioning us on mechanics. I’d like to hear what other people are thinking here.

Yeah, I originally had good feelings about the townbloc, but then I reread your ISO this morning and I'm not as solid in my read on you as I was when you initially townblocced (sp?). So I'm just trying to get a feel for everyone's reads and see where they're at. In particular I think I'd like to hear from GL since he had some misgivings on you in the beginning.

@nom, @GL, I'd like to hear from you two regarding your reads on Auro. GL, have your feelings on him changed since the "paranoia" back and forth?

2) @ nom, you also seem to not have interacted with GL directly at all. What are your thoughts on him in general and also specifically regarding him joining the Allomancer wagon?

3) Sorry more questions @ nom...

@nom, what are your thoughts on acryon after your most recent convo and subsequent pondering? you seem to have backed off of that slot pretty quickly earlier, why was that?

I'd like to hear your thought progression on acryon as well. Particularly when you first unvoted, and then after you asked him what his vig shot you would be, you said there was a lot more to work with - I'd like to hear what conclusions you drew from that conversation.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Calm down Smarter, there’s no need to prod me yet. It’s been a little longer than I thought it had been, but I’ve not broken any rules. My lurking won’t become a regular thing, I assure you.
In response to Auro’s townbloc, I disagree with Karnage’s placement. He isn’t scummy, but neither is he amazingly towny. I agree with placing Nomnomnom there, however.
I’m townreading both players in TheLimitDoesNotExist, so UNVOTE: . I know it’s ironic for me to say this, but I’d like more content from Eve. Her posts don’t seem very towny, but I’m willing to overlook that as early-game banter if her play gets better. If it does not, I think she is the correct day 1 lynch, unless someone else does something worse.
If anyone has any questions for me, ask and I will answer.

Sausasaurus, thoughts on the Allomancer wagon?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

VOTE: acryon

nice looks like ya'll saw the same shit as me

How far have you read up to?

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

@skitter, these two lines contradict each other (emphasis mine):

I guess in writing this out though it might comes down to differing interpretations of tone.

p-edit: oh you're going the 'too scummy to be scum' route I guess

well not too scummy to be scum exactly so much as i'm not sure that scum think to respond to that accusation that way

like if you've accused scum of not scumhunting i think the natural reaction is to go like: 'no i have been scumhunting', or to deflect, but this feels more tongue-in-cheek and a bit more self-aware than that to me

that being said that's kinda like the only line in his iso thus far that i thought was low-key townie

@ limit hydra: 170 isn't chock-full of content but it's kinda demonstrating

a tone that's been peppering his posts that i think is low-key townie.

like he's being ~self-aware / earnest / tongue-in-cheek-y'

Which is it, acryon only said 1 line that was lowkey townie or he's been lowkey townie throughout multiple posts? Can you explain this contradiction? Presumably you wrote both of these posts after catching up on the whole thread, right?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Calm down Smarter, there’s no need to prod me yet. It’s been a little longer than I thought it had been, but I’ve not broken any rules. My lurking won’t become a regular thing, I assure you.
In response to Auro’s townbloc, I disagree with Karnage’s placement. He isn’t scummy, but neither is he amazingly towny. I agree with placing Nomnomnom there, however.
I’m townreading both players in TheLimitDoesNotExist, so UNVOTE: . I know it’s ironic for me to say this, but I’d like more content from Eve. Her posts don’t seem very towny, but I’m willing to overlook that as early-game banter if her play gets better. If it does not, I think she is the correct day 1 lynch, unless someone else does something worse.
If anyone has any questions for me, ask and I will answer.

Sausasaurus, thoughts on the Allomancer wagon?

- Smarter

Also Sausasaurus, I'd like to hear your thoughts on Karnage.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Hey @Karnage, I'd like to hear where you're at in this game as well. It seems like you haven't said much since defending acryon and that's honestly all I can find in your ISO since RVS. Do you have any reads? What are you thoughts on the Allomancer wagon?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

YES I GOT THE PAGETOP!

Speaking of pressure, UNVOTE: .

Something_Smart, have you not considered that there is a mechanical reason to want to be on the wagon as town?
To take up a slot that scum could have taken; thus forcing them to stay off of it?

Eve didn't respond to my post, but this made a good point that relieves my initial concerns over Eve. That plus she seems to be just shitposting means there's really not much to read into there.

However, given that she's just shitposting, I really would like to see some actual content from her.

i don't like this post because he's both agreeing i have a mechanical reason as town so it's not scummy but also that i'm shitposting which should mean he knows i was joking

VOTE: allomancer

This post makes me feel slightly better about Eve I think, but also that's L-1 on Allomancer so preferably I'd like to hear from everyone again, especially Allomancer.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Alright bbmolla, since you're in this thread:
- What do you think of the Allomancer wagon?
- What do you think of everyone backing off acryon?
- Any reads, besides your acryon vote?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Which is it, acryon only said 1 line that was lowkey townie or he's been lowkey townie throughout multiple posts? Can you explain this contradiction? Presumably you wrote both of these posts after catching up on the whole thread, right?

no, i was catching up as i was reading and changed my mind as to how much weight i would be giving the tone as i read more of his posts, which is why i unvoted

i'm roughly here:

townie: limit, karnage, maybe acryon maybe auro
not townie: allo, maybe gl, maybe bbmolla

everyone else: not sure yet and/or i don't remember they're in the game

i was thinking of voting allo but i was kinda getting the vibe that if did l-1 eve might lolhammer and don't think we're quite ready for that yet

Hmm okay.

What are your thoughts on nom slot? You seem to disagree with Auro's reasoning for townreading nom, so are you scumreading her?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

well I guess scumreading isn't the right word since you don't have her in your "not townie" pile, but do you have reasons to lean in either direction for nom?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

- What do you think of the Allomancer wagon?
I fail to see the reasoning for it, did I miss something
- What do you think of everyone backing off acryon?
No idea why
- Any reads, besides your acryon vote?
not really but I'm more someone who gets reads by interacting with people
Rex's catchup post was scummy

1) Here's my & nom's reasonings in this quote (nom's in the sub-quote):

according to my own vig-minded scumhunting I would be shooting Allo right now so I should probably VOTE: Allo
This lack of commitment on every single subject so far is concerning and feels like scum who doesn't want to commit to reads just yet.

100% agree with this, which makes me feel better about the nom slot as well.

I'd definitely like to see something from Allomancer that isn't related to stuff from 6 pages ago, given there's been a lot more content than when he last posted. He just picked out a bunch of random and mostly irrelevant pieces of posts from people to respond to. I especially would like to hear thoughts about the GL vs. acryon stuff, given that he seemed to have been defending acryon before and is now shading acryon (and btw, copied my reasoning for said shade). I mean, this also applies to him - makes a post to throw some shade on acryon who is arguably currently getting the most shade in the game, then immediately drops it and doesn't attempt to engage acryon whatsoever. Shade with no bite.

2) most people seem to agree that acryon's tone is town-y.
3) What about Rex's post seemed scummy to you?

I don't think Rex and Skitter are scum together

Why's that?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Hmm okay.

What are your thoughts on nom slot? You seem to disagree with Auro's reasoning for townreading nom, so are you scumreading her?

- Smarter

i don't have a solid read yet. auro seems to think he's good at reading her, which is why i'd like to hear a bit more about why he's townreading her

the one thing that's pointing a bit towards town is the vig-logic thing because i know that that's a mindset she had been thinking of applying towards her towngames

That's interesting. Isn't that something she could fake as scum fairly easily? What makes you think it points to town!nom?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

does someone have townreads on Limit that is for beyond reasons that they post walls just curious

Is you calling Sausaurus Rex's post scummy related to this?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

@Skitter, can you talk about your Karnage read?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Okay, why?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

yeah he saw what I saw from acryon so lean town

Why is it easier for town to see what you scumread than for scum?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I mean

I generally don't think scum are actually scumhunting they're just looking for shit they can say is scummy

no?

Sure, but I'd imagine there's a decent amount of overlap between what a townie would say is scummy and what a scum would say is scummy. And most people are probably pretty decent at knowing what they'd call scummy as town?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Oh, and: Crayon, suppose I am scum, with the devious plan of forming a "townbloc" that lets me slip by.
I have never advocated for being on it myself, for starters. So, at the very least, I must be shoving my buddy in there (otherwise there's a 2/5 chance of a guilty which is just bad strategy).

Who do you think it could be? Or is it that I'm yet to add them?

This is silly. There's no guarantee that you can't change your reads, or that people will listen to them, and 2/5 chance of a guilty isn't so high that it makes no sense to run the risk as scum.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

You said it makes you not scum with anyone out of your townblock. That's the claim that I don't accept.

And one scum getting guiltied is not the end of the world for scum, especially because any scum offwagon that isn't guiltied will look better because they were off the wagon and opened themself up to potentially getting guiltied.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Not just that: It's a risk with no payoff, since there's no direct reason they become part of a voting bloc the next day.

There's pretty much no such thing as a risk with no payoff for scum. If scum stay off the wagon and aren't investigated, they look townier because they opened themselves up to getting guiltied.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Why wouldn't I, though? You admitted yourself that you didn't see any benefit to staying off as scum. I think it's likely that you really believe that.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Is there a point to this conversation, Smartypants?

...yeah? We're discussing whether staying off the wagon is towny.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Hi yall - apologies for lack of posts today. I'm really burnt out from work atm and need a bit of time to just be a vegetable. Ideally will be back in ~24 hours or shortly after.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I don’t think we should follow through with the allomancer lynch. Whilst his ISO isn’t

good

, it’s not terrible either. I think the best course of action is to scumhunt a little more first, to see if anyone else seems more scummy. We have a deadline, and we may as well use all that time. If allomancer still seems the scummiest after that time, then we can lynch him. But my point is that we shouldn’t lynch him yet.

You’re saying that on page 16 we don’t have enough info to lynch, but you were happy to say that Eve should be lynched back on page 9 for even less content than Allomancer has as of 371. What’s up with that?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I am also taking the “forming townbloc” kind of approach to this game as I think I’m better at that.
Nom - 291 puts her as my strongest read (on top of the fairly strong read I had before). For that particular post, I can’t see scum producing this content and it feels organic to me. General feelings I have on her posts are similar. I like that multiple times she has said “I need to think/go reevaluate my reads,” that comes across as genuine for me; I liked her evaluation/push of Allomancer and the Allomancer wagon; and I’m just generally feeling that her thoughts have started to resonate with me over time, so I feel good about this slot.
GuiltyLion, Auro, Karnage - leaning town for various reasons and at varying degrees.

• I want to like Auro more but tbh he only seems to have stepped up his scumhunting after I questioned him about it, so he’s back to a townlean.
  
• Karnage’s tone is obvtown but I’d like to see you put your vote somewhere and be more active with pushing - seems like you attempted it in 305, I want more of that.
  
• GL still feels town to me - most recently 336 resonates with my own thought process

Everyone else:

Eve sounding horrible
Allomancer sounding horrible
Sausasaurus rex sounding horrible
Skitter apathetic af
Bbmolla meh
Acryon I’m still on the fence about

I could be convinced of a lynch anywhere in there I think.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Sorry I’m realizing now that my whitespacing in that post left something to be desired.... lmk if yall want that reformatted so it’s not just a giant block of text.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Ill at ease* sorry
This eve push doesn't inspire me confidence

It’s currently Auro, bbmolla, and acryon on the Eve wagon.

Who out of those is putting you ill at ease? Are you scumreading any of them?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Fuck I lost my post

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Gahhhhhhhhhh okay to summarize because no way am I retyping all that:

Took a look back in the thread and Eve’s wagon didn’t start until around the same time as/after Allomancer made his first post since the Allomancer wagon formed. I think I’m with nom on this one and am still good with Allomancer wagon. This actually brings my Auro read back down for now as I think he may have started Eve as a counterwagon to Allomancer. I’ll need to reread more closely to see how Auro reacted to the Allomancer wagon but that’s for later.

Back to my vegetable mode. I’ll try to be back in maybe 12 hours but no guarantees. I may need another night as a vegetable.


- Smarter

Pedit: okay I think I really misunderstood what you tried to say because this is what I’m referring to:

Calm down Smarter, there’s no need to prod me yet. It’s been a little longer than I thought it had been, but I’ve not broken any rules. My lurking won’t become a regular thing, I assure you.
In response to Auro’s townbloc, I disagree with Karnage’s placement. He isn’t scummy, but neither is he amazingly towny. I agree with placing Nomnomnom there, however.
I’m townreading both players in TheLimitDoesNotExist, so UNVOTE: . I know it’s ironic for me to say this, but I’d like more content from Eve. Her posts don’t seem very towny, but I’m willing to overlook that as early-game banter if her play gets better.

If it does not, I think she is the correct day 1 lynch, unless someone else does something worse.

If anyone has any questions for me, ask and I will answer.

I was originally really confused by the “if it does not” because I couldn’t figure out what that meant, so I assumed you just meant “let’s lynch Eve,” but now I see that you meant “if her play does not get better.” So that’s my bad.

But as acryon is saying, you’ve produced so little actual content that I still have bad feelings about your slot. You have yet to provide an actual read on anyone and have up to now only suggested a policy lynch on Eve, but tbh your defense of Allomancer is sooooo fencesitty (hopefully I’m using this term correctly). Here’s your post:
- let’s not lynch Allomancer
- his ISO isn’t that scummy
- okay I guess we can lynch Allomancer if no one else is scummier

Which is basically the same kind of wishywashiness I felt from you on Eve.

Where are your reads? Your pushes? Your attempts to engage literally anyone?

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I don’t think Eve’s content has got any better, and I would prefer to lynch her than lynch Allomancer. However, I would still like to wait a little before we do so, in order to gather more information for later days and for day 1. My point in 371 was to discourage an immediate lynch on Allomancer and encourage people to gather more information before making a final decision on a day 1 lynch.

Okay now I’m riled up so holding off on vegetable mode to reply to this.

Allomancer is no longer at L-1. Why are you still so worried about him getting lynched?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I don’t think Eve’s content has got any better, and I would prefer to lynch her than lynch Allomancer. However, I would still like to wait a little before we do so, in order to gather more information for later days and for day 1. My point in 371 was to discourage an immediate lynch on Allomancer and encourage people to gather more information before making a final decision on a day 1 lynch.

Okay now I’m riled up so holding off on vegetable mode to reply to this.

Allomancer is no longer at L-1. Why are you still so worried about him getting lynched?

- Smarter

Also honestly if your

only point

in making that post, after having 150 additional posts of content to read through and gather information from, was to say that we shouldn’t lynch anyone right away....

I’m definitely on board to lynch this slot too.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

That weak attempt to halt the Allomancer wagon

after Allomancer was no longer at L-1

is maybe the post that has given me the top skeeviest vibes so far in this game. I’m thinking an Allomancer/Sausasaurux rex scumteam isn’t out of the question here.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Damn I missed the pagetop

Okay now officially back to vegetable mode. I’ll be back either tonight after work or tomorrow morning.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Fuck I lost my post

The trick is to only post one-liners so it's not a problem if you lose one

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

But why would scum want to be off the wagon?

We just had this conversation lol.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I already apologized for misreading 219. Unfortunately I can’t delete posts or make people ignore posts that I already agreed are invalid based on my misunderstanding

I was clearly referring to lack of reads in 371 and the 0 progression shown there even though there was an additional 150 posts since your previous post

Literally all you said of substance (ie related to actual people in this game and not theory) in 371 was re: not lynching Allomancer

I don’t think I’ve misrepresented anything here. Sure, I’ve drawn conclusions about your motivations but I’m fairly sure that’s called scumhunting. If Allomancer is the only person you mention in your first post in 7 pages, that shows me that your primary motivation in writing that post was about Allomancer.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I guess I’m back out of vegetable mode as this thread is now active

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

If Smarter did not understand what I meant by the phrase “If not,” then he should have asked for clarification before making conclusions based upon it.

Ironic coming from someone who is jumping to conclusions instead of assuming good faith.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

You mind being in the cop bloc with me and the other cool kidz?

Who is this directed to?

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I’ll need to reread more closely to see how Auro reacted to the Allomancer wagon but that’s for later.

I offered no stance on Allomancer, and he went on my "idk" list.
I didn't even read his posts, really

Simple reasoning for Eve vote: I can't sort her playstyle as I don't find it very transparent, and since I don't find her pro-town either, she's a perfectly good lynch.

Allo can go to the copbloc, as he should be much more easily sortable.

Who do you think is scum? Do you have scumreads?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

If Smarter did not understand what I meant by the phrase “If not,” then he should have asked for clarification before making conclusions based upon it.

Also, I should point out-- this is true, of course. It's always better to ask for clarification than to jump to conclusions.

But just because that's what she SHOULD have done doesn't mean that she's more likely to do it as one alignment than the other. Either she actually misread, or she did it intentionally to try to make you look scummy. If she misread, then obviously the problem is between computer and chair and not in our role PM. So it's only scummy if she intentionally misrepresented you to make you look scummy... but what would we gain from that, since she'd know you would just call her out and then we would look bad?

There's really no reason to do that on purpose, and there's no information to be gained from it if it was an accident.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Oh I was already writing that post before you asked us to talk to you so I guess that works out

Okay. I’m not like 100% happy with that answer but I guess I can’t really fault the Eve vote.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

That was @Auro

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Yo Smart/Smarter wanna talk to me about anything that doesn't require me to read posts?

That's a pretty harsh restriction. What did you have in mind?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Acryon agreed with me when I said “where are your reads? Your pushes?” etc

So if you say I’m strawmanning you there, then acryon must be too.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Literally no one is or was saying we should lynch right now. The Allomancer wagon had already gone back down to 3 votes by the time you posted, so 1) we weren’t even in danger of lynching too early, and 2) Allomancer in particular was not in real danger of being instalynched, especially since an Eve wagon was also building at that time.

Yet you still chose to focus your first post in 7 pages on Allomancer being lynched too early. Please note what I said -

I am focusing on the parts where you actually mention a person who is in this game

, because I don’t count the game theory part as being AI. Your post doesn’t mention anyone else. (Which is where my questions, “where are your reads? Your pushes?” etc come from in the first place).

Once again - I don’t think I’m strawmanning here. I conclude that your motivation behind writing that post is driven by a desire for Allomancer to not be lynched based on the above.

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Literally no one is or was saying we should lynch right now. The Allomancer wagon had already gone back down to 3 votes by the time you posted, so 1) we weren’t even in danger of lynching too early, and 2) Allomancer in particular was not in real danger of being instalynched, especially since an Eve wagon was also building at that time.

Yet you still chose to focus your first post in 7 pages on Allomancer being lynched too early. Please note what I said -

I am focusing on the parts where you actually mention a person who is in this game

, because I don’t count the game theory part as being AI. Your post doesn’t mention anyone else. (Which is where my questions, “where are your reads? Your pushes?” etc come from in the first place).

Once again - I don’t think I’m strawmanning here. I conclude that your motivation behind writing that post is driven by a desire for Allomancer to not be lynched based on the above.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Rex, I can guarantee you 100% that the slot you're pushing is town.
Enable HH:mm::ss (optional) in account settings; then observe the timestamps of posts of both heads.

You will find that they are posting independently, and I struggle to imagine how they could possibly be coordinating that.

Then, go ahead and read a Something_Smart scum PT. You will find that he plans out a lot of things. Perhaps the Crown of Misery one, where he was scum alongside me.

Then, ask yourself if he would suddenly abandon a pattern of careful posting and planning and pursue a strategy where he and his partner freely, independently post strong stances.

Then, you tell me if you still think they're scum.


:3

This

is why you’re townreading us???

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

What? No, I think the Traffic Analyst should literally roll a die to decide who to cop.

Or we could leash them, and then have them claim iff they got a guilty. That way we could get an innocent without outing them.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I already considered that, but that would also ensure the inno'd person gets NK'd. I don't want Skitter/GL to be NK'd like that.

If we can manage to force scum to kill whoever we want, I call that a win. We wouldn't have to leash the traffic analyst onto such an experienced player.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

i mean, that's kinda what your slot did here too but ok

Well, sure. I didn't say it was scummy, just erroneous. I didn't read the posts closely but it looks like lilith made a mistake, which happens but of course should be avoided as much as possible.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

and smart is also a lot more passive than i'd expect him to be

Really? Have we played together recently other than in PYP? Because I was hella passive in that game.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I don’t think we should follow through with the allomancer lynch. Whilst his ISO isn’t

good

, it’s not terrible either. I think the best course of action is to scumhunt a little more first, to see if anyone else seems more scummy. We have a deadline, and we may as well use all that time. If allomancer still seems the scummiest after that time, then we can lynch him. But my point is that we shouldn’t lynch him yet.

You’re saying that on page 16 we don’t have enough info to lynch, but you were happy to say that Eve should be lynched back on page 9 for even less content than Allomancer has as of 371. What’s up with that?

- Smarter

... this is also a strawman, this is what they actually said:

Her posts don’t seem very towny, but I’m willing to overlook that as early-game banter if her play gets better. If it does not, I think she is the correct day 1 lynch, unless someone else does something worse.

he's saying that *if* she doesn't play better, she's correct lynch
that's not the same as saying she should be lynched

Yeah I fucking got it, there's no need to beat a dead horse... My reading comprehension isn't the best when I'm burnt out, mentally drained, and attempting to write posts in between work calls. If you caught up on the thread, you should see I already responded to the accusation that I was strawmanning in 417 and 437, and I still believe that I wasn't misrepresenting anything. Actually, I'll just quote them for you:

I already apologized for misreading 219. Unfortunately I can’t delete posts or make people ignore posts that I already agreed are invalid based on my misunderstanding

I was clearly referring to lack of reads in 371 and the 0 progression shown there even though there was an additional 150 posts since your previous post

Literally all you said of substance (ie related to actual people in this game and not theory) in 371 was re: not lynching Allomancer

I don’t think I’ve misrepresented anything here. Sure, I’ve drawn conclusions about your motivations but I’m fairly sure that’s called scumhunting. If Allomancer is the only person you mention in your first post in 7 pages, that shows me that your primary motivation in writing that post was about Allomancer.

- Smarter

Literally no one is or was saying we should lynch right now. The Allomancer wagon had already gone back down to 3 votes by the time you posted, so 1) we weren’t even in danger of lynching too early, and 2) Allomancer in particular was not in real danger of being instalynched, especially since an Eve wagon was also building at that time.

Yet you still chose to focus your first post in 7 pages on Allomancer being lynched too early. Please note what I said -

I am focusing on the parts where you actually mention a person who is in this game

, because I don’t count the game theory part as being AI. Your post doesn’t mention anyone else. (Which is where my questions, “where are your reads? Your pushes?” etc come from in the first place).

Once again - I don’t think I’m strawmanning here. I conclude that your motivation behind writing that post is driven by a desire for Allomancer to not be lynched based on the above.

If you still think I was strawmanning, let's hear your reasons for it.

Also let's revisit your post:

I don’t think we should follow through with the allomancer lynch. Whilst his ISO isn’t

good

, it’s not terrible either. I think the best course of action is to scumhunt a little more first, to see if anyone else seems more scummy. We have a deadline, and we may as well use all that time. If allomancer still seems the scummiest after that time, then we can lynch him. But my point is that we shouldn’t lynch him yet.

this all at once sounds: svs, wishy-washy, and throwing in platitudes to try to prevent an allo lynch (which isn't imminently happening anyways ...)

How is this different from my response to his post? Sounds like you're saying the same things I did. Who's strawmanning whom now?

Whilst I feel that TheLimitDoesNotExist is clearly mafia

Really? You don't think they could be reading things wrongly, Rex?
You're 100% sure they're being disingenuous and not that there's a miscommunication somewhere?

i think they're being disingenuous, yeah
sauce is fine, i think
i think he seems to be a 'slow and steady' sort of player who wants to utilize the full time as much as possible, which is why he told us to slow our horses on allo and even now he's saying that he isn't advocating a limit lynch right now

his allo push was bad but he exhibited the same mindset in ... all three of his stated lynch/scum options (eve, allo, and limit), so i think that this is just how he approaches the game and how he feels about the best way to use our time

smart is shading your townbloc strategy, and smarter is misrepping people to push them
and smart is also a lot more passive than i'd expect him to be

Way to immediately back off of your claim that sausasaurus was scum based on his 371. You now turn around and say that you're totally fine with that slot. How did you get from "this is svs, look at him trying to stop the allomancer lynch" to "sausasaurus rex is fine and limit is being disingenuous" even though you

literally had the same response as me to sausasaurus' post

?

and smarter is misrepping people to push them

or at the very least, is repeatedly pontificating about how bad a person's post is and framing things in a negative light in order to get their point across

once again....

you had the same response as me

. Let's recap my response (excluding the misunderstanding part):
- I say sausasaurus is fencesitty (1)
- I say he's trying to stop the Allomancer wagon (2)
- I say I can see an Allomancer/Sausasaurus scumteam (3)

And let's recap your response:
- you say it's svs (3)
- you say he's being wishy washy (1)
- you say he's throwing out platitudes to stop the Allomancer wagon (2)

Note that the numbers 1/2/3 indicate points where

our responses matched

.

I also don't think I was "repeatedly pontificating." I made a set of posts about how I felt about him in real time with my thought process, and responded to his responses. I feel like you're trying to misrep me now so that no one pays attention to my thoughts on Sausasaurus.

Karnage’s tone is obvtown

when did you form this read?

203 is the first time I explicitly mentioned it, in particular based on 201 where I would not expect scum to question being placed in a townbloc, but I've been townleaning/townreading him for the majority of the game. I revisited this read in 250, basically wanting Karnage to get more activity in so I could see if I needed to update my earlier read; and his series of posts in 298, 299, 301, 305, and 306 helped solidify that townread for me.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I don’t think we should follow through with the allomancer lynch. Whilst his ISO isn’t

good

, it’s not terrible either. I think the best course of action is to scumhunt a little more first, to see if anyone else seems more scummy. We have a deadline, and we may as well use all that time. If allomancer still seems the scummiest after that time, then we can lynch him. But my point is that we shouldn’t lynch him yet.

this all at once sounds: svs, wishy-washy, and throwing in platitudes to try to prevent an allo lynch (which isn't imminently happening anyways ...)

Another question for you, skitter:

Who is the other "s" in "svs"?

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I don’t think we should follow through with the allomancer lynch. Whilst his ISO isn’t

good

, it’s not terrible either. I think the best course of action is to scumhunt a little more first, to see if anyone else seems more scummy. We have a deadline, and we may as well use all that time. If allomancer still seems the scummiest after that time, then we can lynch him. But my point is that we shouldn’t lynch him yet.

this all at once sounds: svs, wishy-washy, and throwing in platitudes to try to prevent an allo lynch (which isn't imminently happening anyways ...)

Another question for you, skitter:

Who is the other "s" in "svs"?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Hold up, how did you end up with townread on Sausasaurus?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Also I just wanna point out one more thing about the Allomancer wagon/Sausasuaurus post that I think we all missed...

Somehow, we all assumed that it took 5 votes to lynch and we (actually I think it was me, I think I should take responsibility here) announced Allomancer at L-1 when he had 4 votes,

even though it's actually 6 to lynch.

So Allomancer was never actually at L-1 (again, totally my bad. Brain not working properly this week due to work), and Sausasaurus comes in telling us not to lynch Allomancer, who by that point was already down to L-3! Definitely not in danger of being lynched quickly!

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

These posts about sum up the stance of people on the wagon:

according to my own vig-minded scumhunting I would be shooting Allo right now so I should probably VOTE: Allo
This lack of commitment on every single subject so far is concerning and feels like scum who doesn't want to commit to reads just yet.

100% agree with this, which makes me feel better about the nom slot as well.

I'd definitely like to see something from Allomancer that isn't related to stuff from 6 pages ago, given there's been a lot more content than when he last posted. He just picked out a bunch of random and mostly irrelevant pieces of posts from people to respond to. I especially would like to hear thoughts about the GL vs. acryon stuff, given that he seemed to have been defending acryon before and is now shading acryon (and btw, copied my reasoning for said shade). I mean, this also applies to him - makes a post to throw some shade on acryon who is arguably currently getting the most shade in the game, then immediately drops it and doesn't attempt to engage acryon whatsoever. Shade with no bite.

Allomancer, at a minimum I'd like to hear reads from you.

Alas, my other head is apparently MIA so I am claiming my vote rights now.
VOTE: Allomancer

- Smarter

I think I disagree. That post in particular shows a nuanced thought over a player. If a scum isn't a stream-of-consciousness machine, they mostly produce content that is fairly one sided on people and tend to categorize as GOOD, BAD or WISHY-WASHY. Producing a post that goes like "I heavily disagree with what you say and here's why... but I think I townread you" takes either a townie mind, or a scum that understands how to properly replicate that kind of nuance, which is honestly hard as fuck.
If we're talking about suspect timing, I'd recommend checking the progression of Allo regarding Eve and Acryon. Suddenly understood eve was shitposting when I said it was shitposting, and suddenly produces a real vote and thought on a player when I accused him of not doing that, on a player everyone more or less suspected previously. That timing and progression is just really bad. I think that the wagon forming really fast is just due to conversational missteps from Allo rather than having scum support. That's my inner feeling on this one.

yeah this is extremely on point

I didn't say it but to +1 and summarize, the thing I disliked most from Allo was the late-ness to it's acryon vote. It was shading acryon but then only voted it once pressured by both Limit and nomnom. The unvote without going somewhere new, even when the juicy acryon wagon was right there, suggests to me Allo isn't interested in voting scumreads.

Allo has still not generated pro-town content ever since he was pushed and only threw shade at Eve. This is still the best lynch today.

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I think if it was a mislynch scum would be hopping on that wagon by now

Not sure I'd recommend using this logic on D1 of a 9:2 game. (Or ever, really, but especially not now.)

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I think if it was a mislynch scum would be hopping on that wagon by now

Not sure I'd recommend using this logic on D1 of a 9:2 game. (Or ever, really, but especially not now.)

-Smart

meh, myself and two of my strongest townreads are on the wagon. Eve was voting it and actually

unvoted

and still hasn't voted back despite being the main counter wagon. If scum benefit from this lynch I don't see it, IMO it is the best possible place for a vote right now.

?? Your 524 is referring to the bbmolla wagon. This post doesn't make any sense. No one is on that wagon except Eve.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Oh sorry I misread again... 524 was TO bbmolla ABOUT the allomancer wagon. Please ignore me.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Auro, you didn't mention Skitter's push on us regarding the Sausasaurus rex post at all. What were your thoughts on that?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

sorry there are pronoun mistakes in many places in that post above, I apologize Allo, I should have proofread that more and I'll try to be a more careful in the future

I think this should read "Auro," not "Allo"

catching up on posts

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Sorry, I'm also more tipsy than I thought and the Auro/GL back and forth is beyond my comprehension for tonight.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Auro, you didn't mention Skitter's push on us regarding the Sausasaurus rex post at all. What were your thoughts on that?

Haven't really read them in much detail , but from what I remember those attacks seemed to be "you're calling Rex disingenuous but you were not making a honest attempt at understanding him as well". I don't think Smarter's engagement with Rex was

disingenuous

, but I can see how Skitter sees it could be. I think that angle of her push is legitimate too.

Please read 514 and then tell me your thoughts. She called us disingenuous after making a post that directly agreed with my response to Sausasaurus.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Her other attacks on Smart regarding his shading of my proposed strategy are legitimate, to my eyes.

What do you mean by legitimate? Because "shading" is really charged diction to describe me disagreeing with your opinion and offering my own.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Even then, do you consider it a bad thing to propose another alternative that can be discussed? I never claimed that my idea was absolutely the best one.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Auro, lilith wants me to remind you to respond to 514.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

For the record, while I don't think leashing the cop is necessarily best, I have heard only qualitative arguments against it. Leashing the cop has the quantitative benefit that it can allow for mechanically confirmed innocents without causing the traffic analyst to immediately get killed. There's no corresponding benefit to not leashing the cop, and flexibility, while it might be important, certainly can't be said to be measurably better.

In other words I think you guys should consider it a little more deeply than you have been, if only because discussion is good and this is a thing you guys seem interested in discussing.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

The argument that scum can manipulate it is one that I think in

theory

should not be an issue, since we'd be aware of scum wanting to leash the investigation to a stronger player so they can kill off that player.

The argument that the cop can follow their own reads doesn't really necessarily prove that the cop's reads are gonna be better than the collective town's. Does anyone know the average rate of cops getting guilties vs. towns lynching scum? That would be an interesting statistic.

Being able to have accountability in results, as well as making sure the cop is not leashed to themselves, are valid points.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

@514:

Okay, cool, so she didn't catch up in thread with your clarification on the "strawman" when she made that point... ok? So?
Like you think as scum she reads your clarification and goes "oh lulz let me attack them for it anyway"?

Saying the same things as you did later does not mean she can't point out a specific point of yours against Rex as a strawman.

You do realize that she was making posts as she caught up, right? Look at the sequencing of posts and her progression on Rex there - I thought that much was obvious?

Yes, she points out a post from Rex as SvS-y and what not, attacks your attacks on him because they feel disingenuous to her, then progresses to a nullish read on Rex - I frankly don't see the problem here. It's just a thought process? Perhaps if you read it under that light, you will see that her posts are consistent with updating beliefs on catching up, instead of looking for consistency as a single belief state as a whole.

I don’t see any transparency behind how she started at “Rex’s post is scummy and here’s why” and “Rex’s post is fine and Smarter is disingenuous for having the same reaction to that post that she herself did.” It feels like a contrived progression on us and I think town is more likely to react favorably to someone showing a similar thought process to them instead of attacking said thought process. On top of that it feels like she’s more interested in telling everyone that we’re misrepping than engaging with us and trying to understand our thought process if in fact she thinks we are being disingenuous, like she’s just decided that we’re scum and yet doesn’t vote us or further engage to solidify that read.

Frankly, I don’t think I was misrepping at all; if you believe I was misrepping, then so was she because she posted the same 3 points that I did; and her calling us disingenuous and misrepping is in fact a misrepresentation itself of my actual progression on Sausasaurus Rex.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Which part of our process do you think she is calling disingenuous?

It seems to me like the “strawmanning” part was the only reason for calling us disingenuous in the first place and that is the basis for calling me “misreppy.” This is something I’ve already addressed and her continuing to bring it up without addressing my posts that address it is doubtcasting me for something that she should either be fine with based on my prior posts, or bringing up with me directly to sort out. Instead she continues to call us misreppy, again after the strawman situation should have been cleared up, and makes it sound like my entire response to Sausasaurus’s post is misreppy and therefore invalid just because of that one mistake I made. She’s using the one part of my response that could be construed as misreppy and acting as if that’s my entire argument. If you put aside that piece, our responses to Sausasaurus’s post are the same yet she doesn’t acknowledge that whatsoever and solely focuses on the one part of my posts that could be vaguely misconstrued and pushes that. I believe that counts as strawmanning too?

You don’t think that’s suspect at all?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Which part of our process do you think she is calling disingenuous?

It seems to me like the “strawmanning” part was the only reason for calling us disingenuous in the first place and that is the basis for calling me “misreppy.” This is something I’ve already addressed and her continuing to bring it up without addressing my posts that address it is doubtcasting me for something that she should either be fine with based on my prior posts, or bringing up with me directly to sort out. Instead she continues to call us misreppy, again after the strawman situation should have been cleared up, and makes it sound like my entire response to Sausasaurus’s post is misreppy and therefore invalid just because of that one mistake I made. She’s using the one part of my response that could be construed as misreppy and acting as if that’s my entire argument. If you put aside that piece, our responses to Sausasaurus’s post are the same yet she doesn’t acknowledge that whatsoever and solely focuses on the one part of my posts that could be vaguely misconstrued and pushes that. I believe that counts as strawmanning too?

You don’t think that’s suspect at all?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

@514:

Okay, cool, so she didn't catch up in thread with your clarification on the "strawman" when she made that point... ok? So?
Like you think as scum she reads your clarification and goes "oh lulz let me attack them for it anyway"?

Saying the same things as you did later does not mean she can't point out a specific point of yours against Rex as a strawman.

You do realize that she was making posts as she caught up, right? Look at the sequencing of posts and her progression on Rex there - I thought that much was obvious?

Yes, she points out a post from Rex as SvS-y and what not, attacks your attacks on him because they feel disingenuous to her, then progresses to a nullish read on Rex - I frankly don't see the problem here. It's just a thought process? Perhaps if you read it under that light, you will see that her posts are consistent with updating beliefs on catching up, instead of looking for consistency as a single belief state as a whole.

I don’t see any transparency behind how she started at “Rex’s post is scummy and here’s why” and “Rex’s post is fine and Smarter is disingenuous for having the same reaction to that post that she herself did.” It feels like a contrived progression on us and I think town is more likely to react favorably to someone showing a similar thought process to them instead of attacking said thought process. On top of that it feels like she’s more interested in telling everyone that we’re misrepping than engaging with us and trying to understand our thought process if in fact she thinks we are being disingenuous, like she’s just decided that we’re scum and yet doesn’t vote us or further engage to solidify that read.

Frankly, I don’t think I was misrepping at all; if you believe I was misrepping, then so was she because she posted the same 3 points that I did; and her calling us disingenuous and misrepping is in fact a misrepresentation itself of my actual progression on Sausasaurus Rex.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

203 is the first time I explicitly mentioned it, in particular based on 201 where I would not expect scum to question being placed in a townbloc, but I've been townleaning/townreading him for the majority of the game. I revisited this read in 250, basically wanting Karnage to get more activity in so I could see if I needed to update my earlier read; and his series of posts in 298, 299, 301, 305, and 306 helped solidify that townread for me.

what was the point of 277 and 279 ?

Trying to engage you primarily

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Yeah I fucking got it, there's no need to beat a dead horse... My reading comprehension isn't the best when I'm burnt out, mentally drained, and attempting to write posts in between work calls. If you caught up on the thread, you should see I already responded to the accusation that I was strawmanning in 417 and 437, and I still believe that I wasn't misrepresenting anything. Actually, I'll just quote them for you:

it's possible that you misunderstood his point, sure

but:
1. the two of you have strawmanned and/or misrepresented people's arguments in other places too, so it's not like this is the only instance or anything

Please show me where this happened

2. rex seems to be the sort of player who is cautious of wagons going too high and of lynching too early; this is a common thread in his post that i pointed out early; he's already done this three times this game. given that ... bashing him on the fact that he wants people to slow down a bit and calling him out on it and getting into a fight with him about it seems a bit silly

Sure but you’re calling me disingenuous for it instead of, I don’t know, just drawing incorrect conclusions

How is this different from my response to his post? Sounds like you're saying the same things I did. Who's strawmanning whom now?

you realize that i can think his post is bad but at the same time dislike how you interpreted, right?

How is how you interpreted it different from how I interpreted it?

and that i can change my mind about what i thought about his post once i read more of his posts?
and that his latter posts invalidated what you were calling him out for there
and where did i strawman, pray tell?

See posts above where I just quoted myself

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

? no you weren't?

I feel like I was. I didn't really push my reads aside from my Billy scumread D1, but even that I backed off on before the end of the day.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

or alternatively, ss do you have any hydra scum games you can point me to?

Not recently. I think this was my last one.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Oh nvm you're talking about a different game, ok

Yeah sorry

This is the game in question, so people can see what I'm talking about. Skitter was scum, I was town.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Yup, and sorry @Lilith but I think Skitter's right here, but further engagement about any of this is fruitless, personally.

So skitter drops the entire push and says "okay I guess hydra is town" as soon as she receives external pressure regarding her push on me, and you're just cool with that? I can concede that her posts reflect thought progression in terms of the change in Sausasaurus read that I didn't see before, but she has repeatedly called us misreppy, contrived, and disingenuous for multiple different posts we made, not just the initial misunderstanding that happened, but she has never once outright called our slot scummy for it and also didn't vote us. Skitter might be satisfied to "drop it" seeing as she couldn't get any traction on us, but I'm not cool with this just being pushed aside.

You know what, let me put my vote where my mouth is: VOTE: skitter

Here I feel like she ignored the main point of my posts to pick apart the pieces that she could call disingenuous. Emphasis mine on sections that she just flat out has not bothered to respond to.

Spoiler: Quote wall #1

I don’t see any transparency behind how she started at “Rex’s post is scummy and here’s why” and “Rex’s post is fine and Smarter is disingenuous for having the same reaction to that post that she herself did.” It feels like a contrived progression on us and I think town is more likely to react favorably to someone showing a similar thought process to them instead of attacking said thought process.

On top of that it feels like she’s more interested in telling everyone that we’re misrepping than engaging with us and trying to understand our thought process if in fact she thinks we are being disingenuous, like she’s just decided that we’re scum and yet doesn’t vote us or further engage to solidify that read.

Frankly, I don’t think I was misrepping at all; if you believe I was misrepping, then so was she because she posted the same 3 points that I did; and her calling us disingenuous and misrepping is in fact a misrepresentation itself of my actual progression on Sausasaurus Rex.

- Smarter

Which part of our process do you think she is calling disingenuous?

It seems to me like the “strawmanning” part was the only reason for calling us disingenuous in the first place and that is the basis for calling me “misreppy.” This is something I’ve already addressed and her continuing to bring it up without addressing my posts that address it is doubtcasting me for something that she should either be fine with based on my prior posts, or bringing up with me directly to sort out. Instead she continues to call us misreppy, again after the strawman situation should have been cleared up, and makes it sound like my entire response to Sausasaurus’s post is misreppy and therefore invalid just because of that one mistake I made.

She’s using the one part of my response that could be construed as misreppy and acting as if that’s my entire argument.

If you put aside that piece, our responses to Sausasaurus’s post are the same yet she doesn’t acknowledge that whatsoever and solely focuses on the one part of my posts that could be vaguely misconstrued and pushes that. I believe that counts as strawmanning too?

You don’t think that’s suspect at all?

- Smarter

See Quote Wall #4 below for all the other places where she shaded us but didn't call us scummy.

------------------------------------------------------
The rest of this post is @skitter

Spoiler: Quote #2

She’s using the one part of my response that could be construed as misreppy and acting as if that’s my entire argument.

not really, but ok

i think that once the misrepping thing had been cleared up and that rex's pov regarding how lynches ought to be done should have affected how you were reading his posts, and instead you just doubled down on saying it was scummy that he was wanted to immediately prevent an allo lynch

IIRC you called my entire push disingenuous when in fact 1) I'm trying to draw conclusions about motives based on posts which, as I've said before, I'm fairly sure is called scumhunting; and 2) you yourself said it was scummy that he wanted to immediately prevent an allo lynch. So it seems like you're taking the handy veil of "misrep" and applying it to my entire push even though the remainder of my engagement with Sausasaurus mirrors your own reaction. What about my posts was misreppy?

Spoiler: Quote #3

I don't feel that Lilith is coming from a place of intentional misrepresentation though, I think she just doesn't understand the double standards that others perceive. Skitter, what do you feel about Lilith's continued engagement on this?

i think her engagement back on this is p decent, and the more i'm bickering with her about this, the more i'm feeling we're both very firmly entrenched in believing that 'our side is right' and I've been sniping back because i feel like she isn't really understanding my pov, so i feel like i need to keep repeating myself to get my point across

and i think she's doing the same thing to me, and that she's annoyed with me for the same reasons, and so i'm not entirely sure i can fault her for that

i am willing to acknowledge that she may have misunderstood rex's initial post about eve, and the more i'm bickering about this the more i'm kinda feeling like she sincerely believes what she's arguing

No I'm annoyed because all you've done is call us disingenuous and misreppy as well as doubtcast us, and I'm really fed up with it. I don't feel like you've engaged with us in good faith and have basically taken the approach to our slot as if we are confscum and you responded to every single post we made that way until you got pressure to drop it. Like how fucking easy is it to just call us "disingenuous" at every turn? Then you don't have to engage with us at all because you can just say "oh that post was disingenuous." Your responses when I try to engage with you on pretty much anything have most if not all called us misreppy, disingenuous, contrived, and purposefully taking posts out of context to distort them, but don't actually address my questions and points directly. Here are some of the times you shaded us (I'd like to say "all" but I'm sure I missed some; also I excluded posts that are already quoted in this post elsewhere):

Spoiler: Quote wall #4: skitter shading our slot

Whilst I feel that TheLimitDoesNotExist is clearly mafia

Really? You don't think they could be reading things wrongly, Rex?
You're 100% sure they're being disingenuous and not that there's a miscommunication somewhere?

i think they're being disingenuous, yeah
sauce is fine, i think
i think he seems to be a 'slow and steady' sort of player who wants to utilize the full time as much as possible, which is why he told us to slow our horses on allo and even now he's saying that he isn't advocating a limit lynch right now

his allo push was bad but he exhibited the same mindset in ... all three of his stated lynch/scum options (eve, allo, and limit), so i think that this is just how he approaches the game and how he feels about the best way to use our time

smart is shading your townbloc strategy, and smarter is misrepping people to push them
and smart is also a lot more passive than i'd expect him to be

and smarter is misrepping people to push them

or at the very least, is repeatedly pontificating about how bad a person's post is and framing things in a negative light in order to get their point across

If Smarter did not understand what I meant by the phrase “If not,” then he should have asked for clarification before making conclusions based upon it.

Ironic coming from someone who is jumping to conclusions instead of assuming good faith.

-Smart

i mean, that's kinda what your slot did here too but ok

lol I don't know how anyone can read posts like 514 and think that limit hydra is scum

Allo/skit kinda feels like The Solve for me rn.

uh no, it's disingenuous, ate-y, and acting like i'm incapable of changing my mind

“Rex’s post is scummy and here’s why” and “Rex’s post is fine and Smarter is disingenuous for having the same reaction to that post that she herself did.”

It feels like a contrived progression on us

no, this is a contrived understanding of the progression of my rex read and my issue with your post, but ok

A prime example of you using this "disingenuous" bs to deflect engaging with us directly, is that you have yet to directly respond to my 514 in which my main point was that your initial reaction to Sausasaurus' post aligned almost exactly with my own reaction. Here's your reply:

Spoiler: Quote #5

Please read 514 and then tell me your thoughts. She called us disingenuous after making a post that directly agreed with my response to Sausasaurus.

yes, i agree that rex's post was bad

however, my point is that you took his previous post of context to make a point.
and that you've done this in multiple places

and reading more of his posts makes it clear that he strongly believes in taking things slow and not lynching too fast. instead of acknowledging that this is his mindset towards the game and having that influence how you're reading him, you doubled down on calling him scummy for not wanting to immediately lynch allo (437) and said he was arguing in bad faith. (419)

Once again, how was my calling him scummy for wanting to prevent an Allomancer lynch different from you calling him scummy for wanting to prevent an Allomancer lynch? At worst I extrapolated to drawing a conclusion that was more extreme than yours but from my perspective you had exactly the same reaction that I did. By the time you came to the thread, there were more posts to look at, but when I made those posts, there weren't. So I feel like not only are you shading me here for something that you did yourself, but also I didn't have all the context at that point to begin with and you're accusing me of taking the post out of context on purpose. In addition you have yet to explain:
- what about my push was misreppy? because you definitely called it misreppy
- how was I being disingenuous?

Oh, and here's another one:

Spoiler: Quote #6

Yeah I fucking got it, there's no need to beat a dead horse... My reading comprehension isn't the best when I'm burnt out, mentally drained, and attempting to write posts in between work calls. If you caught up on the thread, you should see I already responded to the accusation that I was strawmanning in 417 and 437, and I still believe that I wasn't misrepresenting anything. Actually, I'll just quote them for you:

it's possible that you misunderstood his point, sure

but:
1. the two of you have strawmanned and/or misrepresented people's arguments in other places too, so it's not like this is the only instance or anything

Please show me where this happened

2. rex seems to be the sort of player who is cautious of wagons going too high and of lynching too early; this is a common thread in his post that i pointed out early; he's already done this three times this game. given that ... bashing him on the fact that he wants people to slow down a bit and calling him out on it and getting into a fight with him about it seems a bit silly

Sure but you’re calling me disingenuous for it instead of, I don’t know, just drawing incorrect conclusions

How is this different from my response to his post? Sounds like you're saying the same things I did. Who's strawmanning whom now?

you realize that i can think his post is bad but at the same time dislike how you interpreted, right?

How is how you interpreted it different from how I interpreted it?

and that i can change my mind about what i thought about his post once i read more of his posts?
and that his latter posts invalidated what you were calling him out for there
and where did i strawman, pray tell?

See posts above where I just quoted myself

- Smarter

You called us out for taking posts out of context, misrepresenting other people's arguments, and strawmanning multiple other times but have yet to show us where we did that. Instead of engaging directly with us on any of those posts that you believe we've misrepresented, you try to doubtcast us now, presumably way after any of these misreps happened. You jumped immediately to calling our posts disingenuous instead of giving our slot any benefit of the doubt that there was miscommunication or just incorrect analysis happening. Also I have yet to see a convincing reason that your reaction wasn't the same as my reaction to Sausasaurus' post.

- Smarter

p.s. sorry for the wall, nom :/ I tried to spoiler as much as I could

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Re: Quote #6 (594), I believe skitter has not responded at all to my post there.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I don't know. I'm in no mood to try to parse that wallpost right now.

I'll see if lilith can give the sparknotes on her skitter reasoning.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Do you have a preferred lynch?

I have very few reads actually. You and acryon are my only townreads worthy of the name, and I don't have any scumreads.

So no, not really.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Would like it if you talk to Lilith and help critically evaluate Skitter/Allo, etc.

We just talked about skitter for a bit (someday I will stop accidentally typing shitter and having to correct myself, but it is not this day ).

She said the gist of her reasoning was that skitter was trying to call us out for being disingenuous and misrepping without actually engaging us to see why we were acting that way. I do feel like she engaged us to some extent, so I don't totally agree with that claim, but she also backed off kinda suddenly without really resolving the issue.

Overall verdict is I don't really agree with the reasoning per se but I also don't object to the vote.

As for Allo my brain has nothing but from a quick ISO skim I like 465 - 466.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

So skitter drops the entire push and says "okay I guess hydra is town" as soon as she receives external pressure regarding her push on me, and you're just cool with that?

Oh, god, no, she took a step back and reached the correct assessment that this is fruitless and your arguments sound sincere even if wrong.

I think the way you go about this (her attacking you without voting you) lacks nuance.

I'm curious: are you on the same page about Skitter as Smart? Does he agree with your arguments?

I don't think my approach lacks nuance at all. I am pretty bad at explaining clearly what I mean because my brain works in really weird ways, so hopefully my sparknotes version will help:

• Skitter has repeatedly called our posts disingenuous, contrived, strawmanning, and misreppy but has not engaged us directly about it. When I try to engage with her on clarifying what about our posts are disingenuous/misreppy/etc her response has basically been "no you're disingenuous" "no your post was contrived" etc and she's used that to deflect the actual points I'm making so she gets away with not actually responding directly to my points.
  
• She has been skirting around us this whole time and tried to throw as much shade as possible without herself ever getting directly involved in pushing/engaging with our slot by asking us to explain our reasoning, calling us scummy, voting us, etc.
  
• I think if she were town, she would try to actively engage with us on things she thinks are disingenuous or misrepresentative to gain understanding of whether we have a town or scum mindset, and instead she is simply announcing to everyone else that we are being disingenuous.

Hopefully this makes clear that it's not her attacking me without voting our slot that's my issue, it's the fact that she has repeatedly deflected my attempts to engage with her directly and danced around throwing us shade without actually calling us scummy as if she's hoping someone else will push us.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

ok, but you actually, like, had reads that you were sharing, and had a pretty strong thread presence and whenever things started to go in a direction you didn't like, you would definitely let people know

that's not happening here. i have no idea what your reads are and you're basically popping in to bicker about mechanics with auro and that's like all i can remember you doing

It depends very much on the specifics of the game. I got pretty tunneled in that game which is unusual, and I also had to deal with wagons on my townreads. (Which isn't that unusual, but isn't really happening here because I don't have as many townreads.)

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

._.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I guess it's sufficient if she really did change her mind but that post reads like a "let's agree to disagree" post except she seems to be simultaneously admitting that she was wrong and insisting that she was not wrong.

I do think further discussion probably would illuminate the issue more, though it would also distract the hell out of everyone else.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

yeah so this is kinda what i meant by passive ^

I certainly don't disagree with the assessment that I'm passive in this game.

I disagree with the suggestion that being passive is somehow uncharacteristic of my towngame.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

So skitter drops the entire push and says "okay I guess hydra is town" as soon as she receives external pressure regarding her push on me,

and you're just cool with that? I can concede that her posts reflect thought progression in terms of the change in Sausasaurus read that I didn't see before, but she has repeatedly called us misreppy, contrived, and disingenuous for multiple different posts we made, not just the initial misunderstanding that happened, but she has never once outright called our slot scummy for it and also didn't vote us. Skitter might be satisfied to "drop it" seeing as she couldn't get any traction on us, but I'm not cool with this just being pushed aside.

i mean, this is also at best an uncharitable way of reading my what i said ?
like idk what you expect me to say here, it's just another example in the pattern that I've called out already

either you're scum trying to find ways to throw shade on people, or you're town and are really good at misreading people's intentions
i'm not sure that re-litigating this argument is really going to get us anywhere tho :shrug:

like this entire paragraph kinda proves my point

do you want me to go through it all again in answering the rest of your post or

Let's revisit this D2.

I'm still not happy with this slot but I think I let my anger get the best of me this weekend, and it's becoming wholly unproductive. I wrote an extremely long post and then deleted it because at this point I'm letting my emotions cloud my judgment. I'm still on board with an Allomancer lynch since nothing he's said since my initial vote has made me feel better about him, and I will come back D2 with a hopefully fresh brain and mind and can be a bit more analytical instead of emotional when it comes to skitter.

VOTE: Allomancer

L-1

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I think if Allo scum flips it would be most helpful to get a cop in Skit/Karnage

We don't get any cop shots after a scumflip.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Can someone sum up the case on Allo for me?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I could write a case of the scummy things he did but a more convincing sentence is that ever since he was pushed he has yet to produce a pro-town content or anything that comes close to solving and that should already be enough of a redflag to lynch there on day 1.

That doesn't seem like a red flag to me; a red flag would be something that indicates a scum agenda, but I don't see how this helps further a scum agenda.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

yes we do? We don't get a hood created, but we do still get a cop shot

We get a traffic analyst shot, which determines if the target can communicate privately with any other living player. Since the sole remaining scum cannot communicate privately with any living player, they can't be found by that shot.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Allo just made the perfect case in his last post just a second ago.

Okay, that's fair.

But obviously the case must have extended further back than that.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

If we do decide to lynch Allo, they should selfhammer.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

You don't need a wallpost about Allo to understand why he's a good lynch today.
Scum agenda is making people go away by being the most silent you can get away with and let people get paranoid with other slots like Eve.
Again there's no one here with an actual towncase for Allo.

I mean, that sounds like regular lurking to me.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I feel like I should probably read a Karnage post.

(Not that I haven't been I just haven't been paying attention to him at all.)

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Did a quick ISO skim, his posts seem reasonably dynamic. They don't really look that agenda driven.

I wouldn't call him a townlean but I would say he's > rand town.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I mean, sometimes you get behind and need to catch up. What don't you like about them?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

gonna put on my Auro cap here and ask you to elaborate which sequences of posts were dynamic in a way that scum couldn't fake. I agree he doesn't seem to have much of an agenda, but my point is if Allo and Eve are both town then he hasn't needed to have an agenda

Can I put on my Auro cap and ask you not to put words in my mouth?

I never said that scum couldn't fake it; in fact, I think I pretty conclusively suggested the opposite by saying that this wasn't even strong enough to be a townlean.

68, 168, 169, 201, 298, 305, 453, 457, 461 are some ones that stand out as not really pushing a specific agenda.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

People were townreading noms? What for?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

sorry I guess I just misunderstood what "> rand town" means if not a townlean... since 80% random odds any given slot is town this game from town!PoV.

Just a terminology thing, I guess. It's just a way of saying that it's a very weak read.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

also I am voting Karnage in spirit but I imagine I still haven't earned wagon privileges yet

Vote who you want, we'll sort the wagon out when we decided conclusively who to lynch.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Smart, what do you think about swapping out Nom and Karnage from the townbloc, and replacing them with Molla and one of Skitter/Lion?

Why are you asking me specifically?

If I were to build a townbloc it would look something like {Auro, acryon, maybe BBmolla, maaaaybe Karnage}.

If you're talking about who I think should be on the wagon, I think it depends on who's getting wagoned because for the purposes of allowing a TA check we're going to assume they'll flip town. So we should figure that out first. (And obviously, how people act once wagons start getting serious will help inform my read of them.)

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I don't put much stock in my ability to read either of them, especially early.

If I had to pick one I'd pick GL because he seems to be making largely reasonable points while skitter has been saying a lot of things that don't make sense.

...I may actually have just talked myself into reversing that, now that I think about it, because not making sense is usually a towntell and GL is known to have a very solid and logical scumgame.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

So, to sum it up: I have no clue.

Lilith played a fair amount with GL back in the day iirc, I'll see if she has anything on him.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I mean... you can't ask me about something and then forbid me from talking about that thing. Of course we don't have to dredge it back up, but that's obviously what I'm referring to

Other than that, I don't know. That argument was the only really notable thing she's done so far.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Lilith says she has a gut townread on GL based on his thoughts resonating with hers.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

And not the defense of me, or attack on GL?

Right, there was the push on GL. Now that you mention it I did remember that. I can't really find any reasons for it in her ISO?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Nom definitely goes into the copbloc. Molla goes into the copbloc.
I'm ambivalent about Karnage. If you and Smart think so, you could swap him out for any of Skitter/GuiltyLion.
I wouldn't leash the cop to just two slots though, but the cop could assign a higher weight to Nom when they roll the die

I still prefer GL in the copbloc

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I'd rather be honest and say that I have trouble reading most of the game rather than pretending to do and prodging and shit.
Just blergh skitter is voting me for a garbage reason kinda makes me want to vote there too now, couldn't we just have voted allo and went to day 2.

nom, can you clarify whether you legitimately thought that was a slip or were just joking?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Also why did you vote Eve if you still prefer Allo lynch? The Eve wagon is gone I think

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

GL, what are your thoughts on Sausasaurus Rex right now? Still townreading him from tone?

It feels like everyone basically gave him a pass even though he's produced less content than Eve/Allo/molla

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

also apologies for being MIA in thread for a few days, work got a little crazy (internal audits.. scary shit)

I'm trying to catch up on the rest of the thread and will also try to read Auro/GL walls with no guarantee of success. Also I'll try to sort out my reads again because I'm basically starting from scratch with the disintegration of the Allo wagon. If anyone has any specific posts they want me to look at or questions or such, please lmk

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Nom definitely goes into the copbloc. Molla goes into the copbloc.
I'm ambivalent about Karnage. If you and Smart think so, you could swap him out for any of Skitter/GuiltyLion.
I wouldn't leash the cop to just two slots though, but the cop could assign a higher weight to Nom when they roll the die

I still prefer GL in the copbloc

- Smarter

Oops I meant to say GL in the townbloc

But also this may change pending reread

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Sausasaurus you have yet to respond to my 417 and 437.

Also, what was your read on Allomancer when you voted him in 802?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

And I think pressuring nom has merit too

Molla, this is the first time you mention nom this game. Can you talk about your read on her before and after the allomancer wagon died?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Isn't Allo better on-wagon?

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Isn't Allo better on-wagon?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

hey allomancer there's ~5 pages since your last post, any thoughts on content in those pages?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

our mod needs a prod :/ hopefully she's okay, looks like she hasn't posted onsite for a couple days

still rereading, I'm doing a post by post ISO thingy so this is gonna take a while

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I think nom is town for most recent posts

what about her recent posts seems town to you?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Like honestly I'm actually having some trouble seeing who is scum if both Allo and Eve are town here, and that usually indicates skitt scum.

Can you explain this part more?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Hi GL, what's your current read on acryon? I don't think you've mentioned him since 509. Is he still your strongest townread, and can you share your thoughts on his recent posts?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Like honestly I'm actually having some trouble seeing who is scum if both Allo and Eve are town here, and that usually indicates skitt scum.

Can you explain this part more?

- Smarter

If I can't say for sure "X is scum" then that means the scum is good and obviously I look at the more competent player on the table if that's the case.

Sorry I guess I wasn't clear - why skitter in particular here?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Eh, fuck it. The fact that skitt actually voted me after stating that karnage is scum and dropping that read really fast is a really big red flag and I am not taking chances.
VOTE: Skitter
bbmolla feels a bit sketch too, I don't know where this day is going and honestly I'm having no fucking clue right now.

Er... I don't think skitter ever said "karnage is scum," in fact the exact words were "i'm ok pressuring this" which sounds like it's just a pressure vote and not a serious scumread

relevant posts quoted below

i think that eve is basically lynchbait and i dont' really want to end the day voting there, it would kinda feel like a waste after everything
it's like voting notmafia ... yes they're annoying and not being +townie but that doesn't inherently make them scummy

nom you're basically voting people for 'not doing townie things' as opposed to 'for doing scummy things', which i think is kinda fallacious and i think you can find something better to push
and why are you dropping allo now anyways ?

i'm ok pressuring this VOTE: karnage

While at first I thought Karnage seemed like town, the fact that multiple people have defended him as just being gut town feels odd. It feels like one of {acryon, molla} could've said that to try to prevent a wagon forming on a partner without having to describe their reads. I also don't like molla's posting generally, that I'm no longer sure which of those two could be scum.

VOTE: Karnage

Easier than having to guess between acryon and molla.

He's been dipping in and out of thread for the last several days wothout really doing anything anf giving vague 'i looked at his iso and i dont see why he's scum type reads'
Like he had a few takes in the beginning of the game that i kinda liked but those sorts of takes kinda disappeared

Also i wasnt aware that townposts made u disengage so strongly? Can you point to another time that happened?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

nom vs skitter feels like SvT here but I'm not sure which is which.

Actually it feels to me that skitter is only scum if noms is.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I don't understand why hypo crumbing is better than hypo claiming... if scum are on the lookout for crumbs anyway, then why not just make it explicit?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Give them a lot more work to parse?

I don't really think it's that hard to spot crumbs if you know exactly what you're looking for...

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

@acryon, can you explain your progression on Allomancer? It seems like you're scumreading him in 696 then flip flopping/unsure of him/nulltown (?) read in 702. Then you vote him in 711, and then in 735 you seem to be pushing for the lynch to go through. Afterwards you jump off the wagon in 811 and seem to be leaning town, but in more recent posts (895) you've said that Allo is still a lynchable slot for you. I'd like to hear what your thought process has been on this slot and also your current read.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

also I am voting Karnage in spirit but I imagine I still haven't earned wagon privileges yet

GL said he would be voting you except he was respecting the townbloc/copbloc stuff, which I think was fair enough reason not to vote you at the time

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

My preference is to lynch Allomancer. Eve should definitely be in the cop bloc; if she does not unvote in the next 24 hours, I think we should just lynch Eve!

{Acryon, 1/0, Karnage, BBMolla, Rex, Allomancer} -> Lynch Wagon
{Nomnomnom, Skitter30, GuiltyLion, Auro, Eve} -> Cop bloc

I would be wary of swapping GL into the townbloc at this moment, even though I townread him.

if we’re choosing between the two D1 wagons I think it’s gotta be Eve, and switch Eve and Karnage

I still prefer GL in the townbloc over karnage, bbmolla, and rex

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Auro why don’t you want GL in the townbloc still?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Unofficial VC by Smarter

Allomancer - 1/0, rex
Eve - auro, nom
karnage - allomancer
Nom - eve

Not voting - karnage, GL, bbmolla, acryon, skitter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

if she does not unvote in the next 24 hours, I think we should just lynch Eve!

Also can you explain what you meant by this part?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I agree but I’m saying she should be the lynch and therefore on the wagon

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I agree but I’m saying she should be the lynch and therefore on the wagon

Right, I was talking about in the case that she isn't. I do doubt she would agree to self-hammer though

I guess that’s true, who do you want to be hammer then?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Also I think we have to consolidate in like the next 24 hrs so let’s go

VOTE: eve

- Smarter

———————

Unofficial VC by Smarter

Allomancer - rex
Eve - auro, nom, acryon, 1/0
karnage - allomancer
Nom - eve

Not voting - karnage, GL, bbmolla, skitter

The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-05-03 00:18:59).

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

If nsg isn’t back when deadline hits, we should reach out to listmod to see if we can get a backup

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I think Allomancer should be on the wagon for reasons

- Smarter

———————

Unofficial VC by Smarter

Allomancer - rex
Eve - nom, acryon, 1/0
karnage - allomancer
Nom - eve

Not voting - karnage, GL, bbmolla, skitter, auro

The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-05-03 00:18:59).

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I believe I had considered your reasons myself at one point beforehand, and dismissed them. I would strongly say he belongs to the cop bloc lol.

Oh? What made you think the reasons shouldn't be considered? If you're right then I'd rather lynch allo still.

- Smarter

———————

Unofficial VC

Allomancer - rex
Eve - nom, acryon, 1/0
karnage - allomancer
Nom - eve

Not voting - karnage, GL, bbmolla, skitter, auro

The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-05-03 00:18:59).

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I think that whichever of Allo/Eve we lynch, the other should be on the wagon.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

@mod can we get a prod on Sausasaurus and in ~2 hrs also on Eve?

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

With that said it's funny that people are THIS scared of my scumgame that they're ready to reference everything I said in scum PTs in the past
However you guys fail to realize that I'm just town with an agenda of trying to advance my own reads, really.

Eh maybe it's lazy.
Maybe that's what it is.
I'm lazy and I hate going in circles, I just want a lynch.

These kind of contradict each other?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

is there some kind of general consensus I'm missing that nom is a good scumplayer?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I'm rereading over the thread now and will let you know.

When I first saw her flail-y posts they seemed kinda towny to me, like her frustration was genuine, but she seems to slip back and forth between being frustrated/confused and seeming confident in her reads which strikes me as really strange.

Skitter, are you also positing nom/karnage theory like GL?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Yeah I think I'm on board with a nom wagon

VOTE: nom

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Oh my.

Sorry I wasn't able to get to this game today, I had a project I was supposed to be working on and I kept getting distracted.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I think that whichever of Allo/Eve we lynch, the other should be on the wagon.

-Smart

do you mean off the wagon ?

I meant on the wagon.

It's kind of irrelevant now because I made that comment when I was under the impression that Allo and Eve were going to be the two main wagon contenders. I suppose this reasoning can still apply with noms and whoever in Allo/Eve we think is scummier.

But the idea was that if we lynched one of them, the other would be the obvious lynch for the next day, and if the traffic analyst checked that person and got an inno, they'd pretty much have to out themselves to stop that person from being lynched, or at least be very obvious about it.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

VOTE: Nom
Just get me out of here so you can learn you reads lesson

._.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

also can't help this lol

MAFIA IS NOT A LOGIC GAME

I also think "logical analysis" only works up to a point, I don't think of mafia as centrally a game about town being logical and scum being illogical, more so a game of town being genuine and scum being disingenuine. Sometimes I just genuinely feel things a certain way even when I recognize logically it totally could be the other way. I'm getting annoyed you can't seem to pick up on my genuinely believing the points that I'm making, and are attacking them more with a lens on finding things to logically nitpick over

Mafia is not a logic game, but logic can get you really far, a lot farther than most people think. But it is only one of several equally valid ways to play.

-Smart