Newbie 2111 - Know Your Skittles! (Game Over)

[Black]

VOTE: Taly because he's the only one I recognize :3

[Black]

Idk not very many posts rn

Solid logic

[Black]

noooo Human! return to the wagon!

Arko is having a bad day, leave him alone

[Black]

But they're also scum :/

Well why didn't you say so?

VOTE: Arko

[Black]

Oh jk. I need to ISO you one sec

[Black]

Ok yep I can confirm you did say that

[Black]

I have noticed that of the 3 people who haven't talked yet 2 of them are SE's and it is RVS so it's worth a shot
VOTE: Taly

I actually think Taly is on vacation but I'm not sure. Am I even allowed to say this?

[Black]

I just noticed we have Human and Human Sequencer. That won't get confusing at all

[Black]

VOTE: human
Clear scumslip knowing there are two town prs

I can't tell if you're joking but you might be onto something. I didn't actually look at the Newbie Setup until now but Options A and B have three chances at 2 town PRs. Option C only has one.

I think role hunting in any form is harmful right now. I don't even know if talking about the Newbie Setup is a good idea

[Black]

VOTE: human
Clear scumslip knowing there are two town prs

I can't tell if you're joking but you might be onto something. I didn't actually look at the Newbie Setup until now but Options A and B have three chances at 2 town PRs. Option C only has one.

I think role hunting in any form is harmful right now. I don't even know if talking about the Newbie Setup is a good idea

So you talk about the newbie setup and then say talking about it isn't a good idea?

I said I don't know if it's a good idea. I gave an outline of the setup and I feel like that's pretty harmful. I think surface level it might be ok to talk about but digging any deeper into the setup and what we could possibly have in this game is a bad idea

[Black]

3. Black
Following Elements

Where?

[Black]

But they're also scum :/

Well why didn't you say so?

VOTE: Arko

I mean...

Ok yeah. I don't consider the RVS much to go by but I agree with you

[Black]

Well I'm going to be honest yes, I just thought it was unnecessary wording

I like the honesty. I get town vibes from the openness. But I'm not sure if this also reads wolf!Human trying to cover his slip

I'm so paranoid already lol

[Black]

Skittles Fact: Isis is an avid stamp collector and owns thousands of stamps and loves to talk about the stamp collection.

what

[Black]

Black, what's your previous mafia experience?

I played on the WotC forums over 15 years ago. This my 2nd game out of retirement

[Black]

I like Arko for town
VOTE: Weuler

Same. His reads post felt like a town post to me

I don't have many reads yet. I've always had a hard time gauging alignments in the RVS

I still don't like Human's "slip" but that by itself is not vote worthy in my eyes

Arko, Elements seem pretty townie

Weuler feels kinda performative but mostly townie

I'm getting null vibes on Aureal

I don't like python's eagerness to discuss roles. Slightly scummy

Taly and Human Sequencer are M.I.A... I think I would like to vote for one of these to get them going in the game and I think Taly is on vacation so

VOTE: Human Sequencer

[Black]

What made you want to retire from retirement?

Honestly, I work from home and have lots of free time, so I figured I would jump back in

[Black]

Weuler, what say you? Are you in fact made of wood?

[Black]

I like this post by python. But I'm not sure I can get on board with the case. Inconsistencies in RVS between two games probably isn't alignment indicative. Weuler's #119 strikes me as him trying to pursue his suspicions on Human based on Human's "slip" rather than PR hunt

[Black]

Actually you're right Python and I didn't even think of it that way. This whole time I was looking through the lens of scum!Human being the only way he could know there are 2 PRs. I wasn't even considering the fact that certain PRs will also know this information too depending on what PR they have

[Black]

Human was null but now that I understand the situation better I think he leans town. His thought progression feels natural and I like that he's making reads already

Weuler loses town points for me here

[Black]

UNVOTE:

HS has arrived!

[Black]

Nm wbu?

[Black]

Fair but if I was scum then why would I give people ground for suspicions when I was dead

What?

[Black]

Based on my “reads” they could try to draw conclusions on who else was scum

I don't know why that comment confused me so much

I don't like the defense "I wouldn't do that as scum" though

[Black]

I expected you of all people to know that an exclamation mark means NOT, not EQUALS.

Omg. I have been doing this wrong for like a week now? How embarrassing

I just woke up and I'm half working half trying to catch up on the last few pages. I'll post my thoughts here in a bit

[Black]

0 experience with Mafia and Mafiascum, 1k hours in Town of Salem

Pretty unsure on your slot. I feel like you're doing a lot of stuff that looks like you're being busy and scumhunting, but it doesn't really line up or do anything logically. But it does seem like it's coming from a genuine place? So I'm getting mixed signals.

It's because you're incorrectly assuming Town of Salem experience directly translates to d1 forum mafia scumhunting.

No nightkills, no elims, no investigative PRs posting results, no unique or unfakable roles claiming (or counter claiming), and no vote for role (Almost all of which would be available by the time you can actually start voting in ToS) means I'm left with relying solely on reading people to find town or scum instead of it being merely one of the tools I'd use to tip my read one way or the other.

To me this feels like a town post. I'm not really sure what HS is expecting from this stage of the game but python gives a perfectly logical and reasonable explanation for the way he has acted

Why do I have to be the one agreeing with Weuler here, this feels like such a weird post

I'm a weird person

Not sure I follow the progression, Humans argument is that scum!Human would be playing against their wincon by giving information for reads. Not liking the defense is fine on its own but it should at the very least be followed up with a reason for scum!Human to do what he did (such as the reads being WIFOM)

Whoops. I thought it was implied in my comment that I don't like the defense "I wouldn't do this as scum" because it feels like such an easy way to get out of early game pressure. I can totally see a scenario where a newmafia caves under the pressure of an early vote and starts throwing out townreads to seem more townie. Defending that with "I wouldn't do that as scum" makes it seem even worse IMO

Someone said they hate walls so looks like it's multi-post time for me. More to come

[Black]

The Aureal/python interaction on page 9 - not much reads coming here but I think Aureal's explanation of leaving me out of the "experienced" list seems genuine. I am getting a slight townread from python here. His thought progression seems to come from that of a townie. I think it's the tone and the way he's presenting his arguments

Weuler has a good response to the pressure on him here

Aureal scumreads Weuler and Human here. The case against Human is the strongest thing we have today so far and I'm finding myself agreeing with her. Punctuation is probably NAI though

Weuler votes for Aureal here?? I don't like this vote at all. It feels really defensive after Aureal pins Weuler/Human together. Maybe she is onto something here

More to come

[Black]

VOTE: humanSequencer

Why? What did I miss? I am still catching up xD

[Black]

Also Aureal at E-2

I get town vibes from posts like this. It's a bias and I understand these comments are probably NAI but I feel like town is more likely to bring this up for everyone to see

(Though given how scummy Aureal is rn I'm probably reading way to much into a possible Weuler/Taly scum team so I'll drop it)

I'll elaborate on why I think 119 is possibly scummy once Human finishes responding to my questions, for now
UNVOTE: Weuler

FoS: Aureal

I've been giving python too many town points I guess. I don't like this post. Mainly because I'm not sure why Aureal is so scummy?

Weuler, Black, Elements, and Aureal; do you think that if Humans post of

There are two sum and two PRs and nearly everyone has posted so far

was a real slip he would need help from another person to conclude the number of PRs in the game or is it possible for him to come to the same conclusion on his own without assistance?

I feel like he could've skimmed the Newbie Setup and read it wrong. I had to read the setup multiple times after the game already started because it just wouldn't click with me at first, so I can see someone else getting mixed up too. It's probably just me being dumb but the newbie setup seems a little confusing for new players

[Black]

I think our best bet right now is Human or Weuler. I'm interested in seeing where Aureal's theory goes so I will sheep her for now

VOTE: Human

[Black]

Also I just realized I may have used wrong pronouns for people and I'm really sorry. I will try to pay more attention to that

[Black]

I'm confused python. Why does Human have to be mason if he's town? Couldn't he theoretically be any of the town power roles that have another PR alongside them? What am I missing here

[Black]

Ok I'm following now. I think my issue with that is the assumption that town!Human was definitely talked to in a PT. Why are we ignoring the more obvious explanation of Human looked at the setup and figured it out for himself?

Aureal's explanation seems genuine, mostly because I had the exact same thought process earlier. I had completely overlooked the fact that town Human could know there are 2 PRs

[Black]

I think human is town

I like weuler and arko for scum at this point. Weuler made jokes all throught the first few pages of the newbie game that was brought up. It's weird theyre not funny here it was something I noticed

Arko just has that big scum energy

Page 7 solve

I understand the suspicion around Weuler but why Arko? Elaborate on said "big scum energy"

[Black]

@python

It dawned on me in #169 that Human's slip was pretty much NAI. I admit I didn't consider the possibility that town!Human could know there are 2 PRs. That was my mistake and it led me to re-read Human's ISO before I wrote #170. After looking at his posts in a new light he leaned town but there were still things I didn't like, such as the rush to townread people after getting pressure and the chance that his slip came from a bad place.

Aureal then makes her case against Human/Weuler on page 9 and she brought up a few points that I hadn't considered. I'm getting a decent townread from Aureal and I tend to gravitate to players that I townread early. Idk I just find myself agreeing with them and trusting them. Weuler and Human have both done things I like and don't like this game and I think one of them is our best option. I'm willing to test Aureal's scum solve out

[Black]

So yeah to answer your question, the progression wasn't so much anything Human did between those posts, rather what other people pointed out about Human that I hadn't considered yet

[Black]

If Weuler flips town I think it'll be worth looking at Element's progression on him. She townread him early and hasn't had much else to say about him other than he seems wooden, and telling others their votes on Weuler are good votes. Then feels comfortable enough to put him at e-1

My issue isn't the read but I come from a place where bandwagon votes with little explanation or analysis raise eyebrows. I'll admit in my short time here the meta seems wildly different, but it's worth noting. I try to check my bias here because it formed on a different site but I think it'll be a good lead depending on Weuler's alignment

If Weuler flips wolf then I will feel a lot better about Elements. I don't think wolf!Elements would bus their partner in this way. There would be plenty of opportunities for wolf!Elements to take pressure off wolf!Weuler instead of just voting for him and encouraging others to vote for him with little to no reasoning

[Black]

Then maybe we should try to see what Wueler flips then?

I'm down for this. You pushing for a Weuler elim really makes me question Aureal's solve now. Why would wolf!Human go this hard on wolf!Weuler D1? Yeah, could be a bus I know, but it seems unnecessary. Similar to why I don't think it's likely there's a Elements/Weuler wolf team. I just don't see any reason to bus this early when you wouldn't have to

I'm starting to think one of you is wolf and one is town

Aureal what are your thoughts on this possibility?

[Black]

What's the rush? I want to think some more

This is how I feel. I think we are getting valuable conversation and interactions we can use later in the game

[Black]

VOTE: Aureal

go on

[Black]

It feels like you lack conviction behind your votes because ultimately you don't care who gets limmed

This is exactly how I'm reading it tbh. And after looking at Element's ISO again I'm not feeling her coming from a town perspective in a lot of her actions. It just seems like they're willing to jump on whatever case is hot at the time

VOTE: Elements

[Black]

This is exactly how I'm reading it tbh. And after looking at Element's ISO again I'm not feeling her coming from a town perspective in a lot of her actions. It just seems like they're willing to jump on whatever case is hot at the time

Can you tell me why this is scummy?

I find a wolf more likely to jump around helping push wagons without giving any reasons or analysis whatsoever. You put Weuler at e-1 after having a townread on him earlier. Ig I just don't see your behavior as beneficial to the town. But I'd like to hear why you disagree because maybe I'm missing something

[Black]

That was the start of the game it's day 1 reads should change a bit I also used to townread Wueler but Aureal brought up some good points

I'm ok with reads changing. I guess my issue is when they change without any kind of acknowledgement or reasoning. I think townies should be as open and honest with their thought process as they can. I get wolf vibes when people refuse to do this

[Black]

Also, Aureal thinks you and Weuler are wolves together. Thoughts on that Human?

[Black]

Is that what you do when you're scum? or do you try and make up reasoning to go with your pushes so at to appear towny? (i know that's a wifom-y argument but think about it)

I don't think my answer here can be trusted since you don't know my alignment, but I will answer honestly anyway: I try to keep my playstyle consistent when I'm town/wolf, but I do tend to lurk more as wolf and I don't attach as much analysis to my posts

Since that townread I had voted him and called him wooden, clear progression. Also what Human said

I think I look for verbal progression, not implied, but this is fair ig

Day 1 we have nothing so I try to play quite volatile so things happen.

This is a little chaotic but also fair

[Black]

Actually after re-reading it I don't like your last point as much as I did at first, mainly because we have had lots of stuff to work with already today. Why continue to be volatile when things are already happening?

[Black]

Also, Aureal thinks you and Weuler are wolves together. Thoughts on that Human?

As I said she made some good points I was acting pretty scummy the first few pages despite being town

Do you think you giving reads was scummy?

[Black]

I want to UNVOTE: for now because I think after Elements vote on herself she's at e-2. Discussion is picking up and I don't think the Day should end yet

[Black]

Actually after re-reading it I don't like your last point as much as I did at first, mainly because we have had lots of stuff to work with already today. Why continue to be volatile when things are already happening?

What do you want me to look at?

I think just talking about things in general is enough for me. You're already starting to do it. Talking more and being open with your thoughts/reads will make it easier to read your slot

[Black]

The way Black keeps invoking me is interesting, I'm starting to feel like she wants to hide behind me.

I kinda touched on that here. Maybe it's a bad way to play but I can't even really help my brain feeling townie about players I agree with early, even when I try to check my bias

I invoke you because I kinda trust your reads and logic so far and I think your opinions are valuable for this solve. I can see how that looks like I'm trying to hide behind you

[Black]

In my defense I just said I was down to flip Weuler. I didn't vote for him because I don't think we should end the Day yet

[Black]

Python's iso is wild. Not necessarily in a scummy or towny way though, but it's probably something worth analysing.

So you're getting a null read on his iso but it's wild? Can you elaborate?

[Black]

What do you think about that being the only thing he's done?

Updated read:
He's in four other games right now, I think him not posting that much here due to being overloaded is a much more compelling explanation than alternative explanations that would be AI

I think this counts as discussing ongoing games

[Black]

But I'm not sure. Just be careful

[Black]

I think this counts as discussing ongoing games

I asked in advance before posting 365. I will not be elaborating on that read past that though

Ah ok gotcha! My bad

[Black]

Weuler, do you think Aureal is likely scum? I'd like to hear your updated thoughts on her if you don't mind

[Black]

I am going to re-evaluate my vote when I have time later today

Why do I feel like this is dodging my question? I think a yes or no would have been ok. Unless you're just not sure and need to take a look

[Black]

That's fair. Why would wolf!Weuler post that when he could just ignore it for now? Unless he feels pressure to respond. I'll wait patiently for an answer

[Black]

Ok that smiley face looks creepy. Never again

[Black]

Thanks, I will be removing my eyeballs from their sockets now

[Black]

Reading through Aureal's iso I don't really get a scum vibe. My earlier complaints about an argument being pulled from thin air can make sense from TownAureal being very focused on the scum pair Human/Weuler and seeing scum signs when there aren't any. I think a scumAureal could have pushed harder during the Weuler wagon. If her goal was just to lim a townie, then she could at least have voted me when the wagon started picking up.

These thoughts pretty much line up with my own

[Black]

I'm going to try to do a reread in between working and update my list and where I stand on everyone

[Black]

VOTE: Elements

Half pressure, half because she is my biggest scumread. I did quick read through and I'm not getting town vibes from this slot at all

[Black]

VOTE: Elements

Half pressure, half because she is my biggest scumread. I did quick read through and I'm not getting town vibes from this slot at all

What are your reads on HS and StD?

StD - leaning town here. We have similar reads on Weuler and you...we agree that Aureal's "slip" was probably not a slip at all... and he seems earnest. Not getting many wolf vibes here at all

HS - ...who? Is this guy even playing the game? I just checked his ISO and he hasn't posted since the 7th. He has decent posts before that though and his reads aren't awful. But I really don't think we should let anyone get away with 3 days of not providing anything at all

VOTE: HumanSequencer

Talk, please

[Black]

Elements can you elaborate on your StD read?

[Black]

Also the VC is off but whatever

[Black]

@Elements

Elements can you elaborate on your StD read?

[Black]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Elements

Now that HS has been replaced I'm moving my vote back

[Black]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Elements

Now that HS has been replaced I'm moving my vote back

If you're trying to prompt activity, why not vote Arko? He'd have been replaced by now too except he got a totally contentless post in less than two hours after I noted those two were due for prods. And has not been back in the full day since, despite saying he'd get to it soon. That doesn't feel like a great sign.

I actually went though and checked everyone's activity once it hit me that HS hadn't posted in 3 days. I saw Arko's post a day ago and I guess the acknowledgement and apology was enough for me to think of him as "here". When I changed my vote I wasn't even thinking about him. Day won't end anytime soon and Arko will get his pressure if he doesn't follow through

[Black]

Elements does have a scumread on StD

Freedom! Come liberate your slot from being scum with StD

Here they say StD's slot is scum and when questioned about it they just say "it's a vibe thing"

[Black]

I encourage anyone who thinks I have no presence here to read over my iso. I haven't been as active over the last couple of days due to Hogwarts Legacy coming out (I know I'm sorry) but before Friday I was actively posting my reads, thoughts, and progressions.

If pressuring for presence is the intent here, I'm having a hard time finding myself a better candidate than some other players that haven't been as open and active like Arko and Elements

I mean I've given my opinions on everything in the game. I don't know what more I can do here to make you think I have a "presence"

[Black]

I think you make a good point, black really gives me sheeping vibes. I'm also not a big fan of some of their posts, in particular 127 just seems forced and lamist.

I think some pressure is in order VOTE: black

Accusing me of sheeping while actively sheeping. Can you elaborate?

[Black]

Some thoughts about the inactives (or previously inactives)

Arko: Aside from a few brief reads he hasn't really contributed at all. In 2108 a scum did something similar, promising reads "soon" every time they posted. I really don't like this.

Freedom/HS: HS townread Human and Black, cast suspicion on Aureal, Elements, and me then disappeared. Not sure how to interpret that. I expected a bit more from HS's successor, and I hope they provide some more of their thoughts soon.

But I'm the candidate you chose to pressure? Seems convenient to do so right after someone else expresses suspicion. I mean you jumped on that

[Black]

What do I mean by this? For every other poster here I can at the very least give a one sentence description on them or their behavior or their reads from memory without checking ISOs

Black though? Nothing comes to mind. Going through their ISOs their reads are basically whatever everyone else is reading at the time. When you have the same amount of posts as other active users but are somehow less memorable than the person who joined late and almost immediately afterwards replaced out there's something scummy going on

So I'm scummy because you can't remember me? Like I've done plenty this game worthy of a one sentence summary. The fact that you can't give me one seems to be a you problem. I think you've tunneled pretty hard this game and forgot to even read or acknowledge my posts because I've been here. Just not over the weekend

[Black]

No, but I don't get it. What are you two trying to pressure me to do?

[Black]

No, but I don't get it. What are you two trying to pressure me to do?

Are you asking if votes have a purpose other than for limming?

You voted for me because "pressure is in order" ...what are you pressuring me to do?

[Black]

I think you've been flying under the radar for a while.

Again, I'm not following here. I haven't been here this weekend but prior to Friday, I was active daily posting my reads, thoughts, and progressions. You two saying I'm not doing anything is disingenuous especially when my ISO says otherwise

[Black]

what's happening is no one is reading Black despite Black posting their reads decently often

This is what makes me think python is just forgetting about everything I've said this game. His main reason for thinking I'm scummy is that he can't summarize my game or my behavior with one sentence, and that I'm "less memorable" than other players. This just doesn't make sense to me because I've posted so many thoughts and opinions. One would have to actively try to not know anything about me. Or maybe he just didn't notice me over the tunneling he's done? Python's scumread boils down to not knowing anything about me but it's not like I've been quiet or reserved this game

[Black]

I am not complaining about your lack of posts.

So you are pressuring me to post more content then?

Put our iso's side by side and tell me honestly who you think has provided more content this game

[Black]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Arko

I think we're better off pressuring the lurkers that haven't contributed much this game

[Black]

That's the thing, you

are

an active poster.

When I can say something about

everyone else

and that list includes a person actively prod dodging and another person who replaced out, the fact that I can't say anything about you is significant.

Everyone else has let enough of themselves as a person slip through this game to cause them to either play differently, make unique reads, keep pushing a read after people have moved on, or otherwise done something weird. All of that makes them memorable. You not being memorable means I have determine if it was done deliberately to fly under the radar as scum!Black or if it's just

I see what you are trying to say. I think. You're worried about me because I haven't done anything memorable in your eyes and you think I might be deliberately trying to fly under the radar. I don't really know what to say about this. I have tried my best this game to give my thoughts and opinions on everything I can. I think you'd be better off asking me specific questions about people/events. If you can't find a memorable post or opinion of mine then talk to me about the game. I'm an open book

I'm not saying you haven't done anything, I'm saying you haven't done anything memorable. I might be missing it but can you point out even one read that you were on before everyone else or one read that you stayed on after everyone else moved on or one post that you made that sparked more than 2 posts worth of discussion before 485?

So this is the criteria for being memorable? Being on a read before others? Staying on the read? Sparking conversation? I feel like I've done these things whereas some other players here haven't, but I will do the research for you

1. Being on a read before others

I don't like python's eagerness to discuss roles. Slightly scummy

Weuler's #119 strikes me as him trying to pursue his suspicions on Human based on Human's "slip" rather than PR hunt

I don't like the defense "I wouldn't do that as scum" though

To me this feels like a town post. I'm not really sure what HS is expecting from this stage of the game but python gives a perfectly logical and reasonable explanation for the way he has acted

Weuler votes for Aureal here?? I don't like this vote at all. It feels really defensive after Aureal pins Weuler/Human together.

If Weuler flips town I think it'll be worth looking at Element's progression on him. She townread him early and hasn't had much else to say about him other than he seems wooden, and telling others their votes on Weuler are good votes. Then feels comfortable enough to put him at e-1

StD - leaning town here. We have similar reads on Weuler and you...we agree that Aureal's "slip" was probably not a slip at all... and he seems earnest. Not getting many wolf vibes here at all

2. Staying on a read
I don't have quotes here and I'm not sure what you even mean by this. I'm still on a lot of my reads? I lean town with Aureal, StD, probably Human, and probably you despite the tunneling. I lean scum with Elements, Weuler. I'm pretty null on Freedom and Arko. These reads are constantly changing and evolving but I haven't strayed from any of them and I don't understand what makes any of this less memorable for you

3. Sparking conversation
There are too many instances of me asking questions and trying to get information out of people. I'm not going to quote them all here. I think you should really look into my ISO and not just skim it, but actively read my posts and the conversations that were going on at the time I posted them. If that still doesn't give you an idea on how I've been playing then we can discuss anything you'd like

[Black]

UNVOTE: Arko since he is getting replaced

[Black]

I think both Elements and STD are good targets for elimination. Let's see how serious Ele is about his sr on std.

UNVOTE: Black
VOTE: STD

Can you explain why you think StD is a good option? Earlier I believe you said you would prefer a Black/Elements lim. You kinda explained why you don't want to lim either of us but did you ever explain your scumread on StD? Sorry if I missed it

[Black]

Black, what are your thoughts on an StD lim?

I don't understand the case against StD at all. I townread him. I just skimmed his ISO to see if there was something I missed and I just get the vibe that his perspective is coming from that of a townie

[Black]

also i can't keep quiet im sorry if i'm speaking out of turn. but it's hurting people i care about so i can't

please don't play hogwarts legacy don't buy it don't do anything with it

i won't be talking about this further

I just want to say I hate JK Rowling with a fiery passion. And that is all I will say about this as well <3

[Black]

I'm glad you finally read my posts. Maybe now you can give me a one sentence summary?

[Black]

Also I'm curious what the raw data would look like if you did this with the other 7 players

[Black]

If you're expecting me to give some big day 1 solve, it's probably not gonna happen. Why are you holding me to this standard? This is my 2nd game in probably 18 years and when I used to play it was on a completely different site with a very different meta. I don't feel like I'm even in the top half of wolf hunters here tbh but I feel like I'm trying my best

I would like to hear from Arko's replacement. Another perspective can only be beneficial for us

I will try to have more unique reads I guess

[Black]

My point is that your actions and your vibes create a contradiction. If you're good at scumhunting like your vibes suggest then I can't explain the lack of results in a town!Black game.

Lack of results? I feel like my scumreads are pretty decent and the results have yet to be seen. I don't know what vibes I give off that I'm good at scumhunting but this whole thing seems to be you expecting me to play a certain way and me not meeting your standard. I think you should lower your standard

If you're inexperienced at scumhunting like you say you are and your results suggest then I can't explain your confident vibes without suggesting that your posts go through several editing passes instead of posting whatever is in the post once you put your read into words, which would imply a scum!Black game

This whole bit about results is a really weird progression you are making. It sounds like it's coming from an informed place. How do you know my reads are bad? Do you know Elements and Weuler are town? Why are you picking me out of everyone to say my scumhunting is bad? And don't say my "confident vibes" because that isn't going to cut it

[Black]

Generating content from yourself and others, forming opinions, and then pushing those opinions until you've reached a conclusion, that's what d1 scumhunting is all about in my eyes. When I look at you throughout this game, I don't see that.

I'm curious, do you see this with the other players?

And as for the "confident vibes", that's the point. The vibes you give off in your first game of mafia are not going to be the same as the vibes in your 5th game and those aren't going to be the same as your 1000th game. The more you play the more experienced you become; the more experienced you are the more confident your unfiltered self will be and the more competent your unfiltered selfs slothunting will be. The more time you spend on drafting a post the more you can stray from this, but a contradiction in confidence and competence arising from that is an indicator that you're taking the time to do drafts instead of posting the first draft as soon as it's done. In my eyes, that's a scumtell

I don't spend any time drafting my posts? I write them and press submit. This scumtell is in your imagination

[Black]

Are you seriously scumreading Black for using proper grammar and thinking about what to write?

Yes because it creates a contradiction. Go take a good hard look at Blacks posts throughout this game and tell me if that looks like someone actively trying to scumhunt or if it looks like someone trying to be present without explicitly fluffposting.

This post bothers me. I may not be good at scumhunting but there is no doubt I

am

actively scumhunting. I may not be as thorough as you but I think my style of play is just fine. I make reads, question people, post my thoughts, explain my progressions. I don't know how you want me to play python

[Black]

I don't know how you want me to play python

I want you to come to your own damn opinions instead of waiting for other to do it for you

Why are you being rude now? My opinions have been my own. I'm sorry that other people shared similar opinions dude. I seriously don't know what to say to you. Please hyper tunnel on every other player and show me how they are doing such a good job scumhunting and coming up with such unique opinions

[Black]

1) There's a difference between not getting any traction but pushing anyways when you think you have something (town tell) and not getting any traction and then moving on to easier targets (scum tell)

What are you even saying? I've been on my top two scumreads for most of this game. I haven't moved on at all. I voted for inactives but I made it clear it was to get discussion going. So again this is another scumtell you have of me that I'm not even guilty of...

[Black]

What are you even saying? I've been on my top two scumreads for most of this game. I haven't moved on at all. I voted for inactives but I made it clear it was to get discussion going. So again this is another scumtell you have of me that I'm not even guilty of...

What are YOU saying? You've been on the Human wagon when there was an active push on a Weuler/Human scumteam, then you switched to Elements when STD replaced and started a wagon on her.

If you want an example of what staying on a person you scumread looks like, Aureals vote has been on me for 2/3rds of the game with just as many posts

Just because I move my vote doesn't mean I have moved on from them as a scumread. And in Weuler's case I don't even need to vote to keep him as a scumread. Let me play Mafia how I want to play it. Your issue with me at this point seems personal

[Black]

Generating content from yourself and others, forming opinions, and then pushing those opinions until you've reached a conclusion, that's what d1 scumhunting is all about in my eyes. When I look at you throughout this game, I don't see that.

I'm curious, do you see this with the other players?

And as for the "confident vibes", that's the point. The vibes you give off in your first game of mafia are not going to be the same as the vibes in your 5th game and those aren't going to be the same as your 1000th game. The more you play the more experienced you become; the more experienced you are the more confident your unfiltered self will be and the more competent your unfiltered selfs slothunting will be. The more time you spend on drafting a post the more you can stray from this, but a contradiction in confidence and competence arising from that is an indicator that you're taking the time to do drafts instead of posting the first draft as soon as it's done. In my eyes, that's a scumtell

I don't spend any time drafting my posts? I write them and press submit. This scumtell is in your imagination

Also you never answered my question here. I would like to know your answer

[Black]

And in Weuler's case I don't even need to vote to keep him as a scumread.

You're kidding right? You pretty much entirely moved on from Weuler after 307 onto Elements in 321 all the way up to 494 when you needed to respond to Weuler pushing you in 487. That ain't keeping him as a scumread in my eyes

I don't care what it looks like to you. Weuler never left my scumreads after I told Human I would be down to vote for him. I don't have to be actively tunneling on a player to keep my eye on them

[Black]

Literally your entire case against me is I'm not playing mafia how you think I should be playing. You're even making stuff up in your head to convince yourself I'm scummy like I spend time perfecting my posts and I moved on to easier targets. You're tunneling and it is blinding you

[Black]

Generating content from yourself and others, forming opinions, and then pushing those opinions until you've reached a conclusion, that's what d1 scumhunting is all about in my eyes. When I look at you throughout this game, I don't see that.

I'm curious, do you see this with the other players?

Of the people playing:
Aureal yes
STD yes
Human no
Elements yes
Freedom still catching up
Arko in the process of being replaced
Weuler no

Could you provide examples of what you consider good scumhunting from StD and Elements when you get back?

[Black]

It's just python and Black are my highest TRs so I'm against voting either today.

I also TR'd python early on for the most part. He did a couple things early that I didn't like that made him lose some town points in my eyes though such as wanting to talk about PRs so much. His tunneling this game suggests he's either an overzealous townie or an opportunistic wolf. I'm leaning toward the former but I noticed something from him when I was trying to gauge his alignment. He made a big post talking about how he plays as town versus wolf.

As town adopting a no trust necessary, highly analytical position does a few things:
1. Lets me generate reads in such a way that I can quickly identify if new information should cause that read to change (e.g. 406)
2. Ensures that people understand the why of those reads if I die, so that if new information comes up that should change those reads I don't need to be alive to explain it
3. Allows me to avoid using my poor tone-reading skills and instead focus on what I'm good at

This is the first part where python talks about the benefits of his playstyle as a townie. What stands out to me here is #3. Python admits he has poor tone-reading skills, yet the majority of his case against me involves my "confident tone" and how it doesn't match my analysis. I feel like town!Python would understand this and not tunnel on me for something he could be wrong about

As scum it allows me to:
1. Push for miselims in such a way as to avoid being considered scummy (After all, if people agreed with my reasoning then shouldn't everyone on the wagon be considered scummy instead of just me? Or even everyone off the wagon for knowing that they'd flip town and not wanting to look scummy?)
2. Bog the game down in long fights that seem town on town in order to reduce the chances of my scum teammates saying something scummy

Here python talks about the benefits of his playstyle as a wolf. #2 is interesting because he has definitely succeeding in bogging the game down. He first tunneled on Aureal and now he's tunneling on me

There's a few things you can do if you suspect I'm scum:

2. Look for people I'm not reading even though I should be. As town!Python I only have a limited amount of time and energy to do in depth analysis, as scum!Python I will take advantage of this perception to hyperfocus on people I know are town in order to avoid having to give a read on my scum partner. Asking me about my read on a specific person means I need to give a response instead of conveniently ignoring them

Here python says he only has a limited amount of time and energy to do in-depth analysis when he's town. Uhh? He definitely had plenty of time and energy to go through my entire post history and cross-reference everything I've said with other posts. He also has been giving in-depth analysis way before the tunnel on me (see Aureal and Weuler). So python's own description of his town play doesn't match his actual play this game. Furthermore he goes on to say that as scum, he will

take advantage of this to hyperfocus on people he knows are town

. This is alarming for a couple reasons. One, he hyperfocused on Aureal and has since switched his read on her completely and now thinks she is town. Two, in python's progression against me he said

twice

that I'm not producing results, but how would python know this if he's not scum? I have expressed scumreads on Human, Elements, and Weuler, so how could town!python possibly know I'm wrong about these people? This combined with the two imaginary scumreads on me made me look at python's hyperfocus in a new light

Python explains that as scum he will do these things to take pressure off of his partner. I was trying to look at interactions and I found python defending Arko's slot:

Arko: Aside from a few brief reads he hasn't really contributed at all. In 2108 a scum did something similar, promising reads "soon" every time they posted. I really don't like this.

I think he's a decent candidate for a day 2 policy elim if he keeps doing it and no one else outs themselves as scum (Scum sure as hell aren't gonna nightkill him, if he's scum for obvious reasons and if he's town then him being alive in ELO is a dream for them), for day 1 though I feel like a flip from an active poster will do more to generate reads that lead to effective elims later while also giving him the chance to either replace out or start actually participating

7. Arko - Day 2 policy elim is statistically better

Python seems pretty adamant on keeping pressure off of Arko. I agree with the stance that we should let Arko be replaced but I find it really odd that python went out of his way to respond to Weuler being suspicious of the inactivity. It almost reads like we should ignore Arko completely today and deal with him on D2. I'm still working to figure out if python just ratted on himself with this big post but if he does flip red, based on his own analysis of his wolf play, I think we should look at Arko/Meg as a possible teammate

[Black]

Python is a they/them

Crap. I apologize

[Black]

I would go and edit those pronouns if I could. I will make sure I don't do that again

[Black]

Honestly I feel like the whole thing between black and python is probably townvtown I've townread them both at points and honestly Python's argument isn't enough for me to think Black is scum.

What bothers me is that python says they do this as scum. They bog the game down with long arguments that seem townvtown. That's what makes me raise my eyebrows

[Black]

Them being the scummiest

Did you explain why they are the scummiest? I tried to look and all I could find was your "vibe" comment about StD and nothing really on Freedom. Why are you throwing out these reads and statements with no explanation behind them?

[Black]

#665 and #666 is the best analysis I've seen from you all game. Idk why it took 27 pages but better late than never!

I have some comments on your reads but I think I would rather wait for StD and Freedom to address you before I speak on them

[Black]

Everyone who is saying Black is just following other's reads, iso StD and Freedom and tell me anything actually substantial they've done.

I think it's just python? Maybe Weuler, but he hasn't had much to say about it since he voted for me

[Black]

Pages 1-16

Elements: feels town, there's some pressure there but I don't think it's for particularly good reasons

Python: Townlean. A lot of work to solve even if I disagree with some of the cases being presented. There's a bit of weirdness that I feel could be scum motivated but if that grows apparant by the time I catchup I'll elaborate.

Aureal is basically the same as python for me minus the weirdness.

Black: Townlean here too, like their posts so far and feel grounded.

I'm curious about this python read but I will wait for you to catch up

[Black]

Pages 1-16

Elements: feels town, there's some pressure there but I don't think it's for particularly good reasons

Python: Townlean. A lot of work to solve even if I disagree with some of the cases being presented. There's a bit of weirdness that I feel could be scum motivated but if that grows apparant by the time I catchup I'll elaborate.

Aureal is basically the same as python for me minus the weirdness.

Black: Townlean here too, like their posts so far and feel grounded.

I'm curious about this python read but I will wait for you to catch up

Caught up what do you want to know

I was wondering if you can elaborate on the "weirdness" and if you still townlean him after catching up. But if you want to wait until you're not on mobile then that's ok

[Black]

Pages 1-16

Elements: feels town, there's some pressure there but I don't think it's for particularly good reasons

Python: Townlean. A lot of work to solve even if I disagree with some of the cases being presented. There's a bit of weirdness that I feel could be scum motivated but if that grows apparant by the time I catchup I'll elaborate.

Aureal is basically the same as python for me minus the weirdness.

Black: Townlean here too, like their posts so far and feel grounded.

I'm curious about this python read but I will wait for you to catch up

Caught up what do you want to know

I was wondering if you can elaborate on the "weirdness" and if you still townlean him after catching up. But if you want to wait until you're not on mobile then that's ok

Actually was mostly covered in the thread (hadn't read it yet) about the neutrality/purely analytical style and I think python both justified it well and has had their play be more TI since. Moving them up to full townread.

This progression concerns me. Python basically admitted they like to hyperfocus on people as scum to draw attention away from their scummate. Their slot has been linked to defending the inactivity of your slot in between their tunneling of Aureal and me. Your initial read of them being weird and then the progression to them being full town is alarming

[Black]

I'm convinced if one of python/Meg flip wolf, the other is guilty as well

[Black]

Yes I think if one of you is wolf then the other one is as well

[Black]

But I don't know if either of you are wolves. This is a progression I made based on python's own analysis of their wolf play

[Black]

Not unreasonable, although I don't really know if we'd need to defend each other right now as partners since neither of us seem particularly likely lim candidates.

Python defended Arko's inactivity and suggested we should worry about him D2. And they went out of their way to stop Weuler from suspecting/voting for Arko. Idk it just seems weird to me. A town perspective should be ok with pressure votes and fos'ing inactives

[Black]

What's your elim pool for today black?

I'm still figuring that out. Elements and Weuler lead the pack for me still, but Elements is starting to contribute in ways that I like, and python has suddenly pinged me with their tunneling/made up suspicions of me/wolf and town gameplay reveal

[Black]

Not unreasonable, although I don't really know if we'd need to defend each other right now as partners since neither of us seem particularly likely lim candidates.

Python defended Arko's inactivity and suggested we should worry about him D2. And they went out of their way to stop Weuler from suspecting/voting for Arko. Idk it just seems weird to me. A town perspective should be ok with pressure votes and fos'ing inactives

I get it but I don't think it's unreasonable for town to want to deal with an inactive slot or not want to vote there yet

I get not voting their themselves. But calling someone out for doing it and having an issue with them being suspicious of the inactive slot is what I'm not following. It's not like Weuler was saying we should vote out Arko. He didn't even vote for him. He just said Arko's inactivity was suspicious and python seemed to have an issue with that

That in itself isn't the most suspicious thing in the world but when you read over python's description of how they play as scum, it matches up to how they are playing this game, including the subtle defense of Arko

Not sure if python or Meg are the best options for a lim today but them being linked is definitely worth noting

[Black]

Walk me through your elements scumread

I had an issue with Elements' random voting and bandwagoning because there didn't seem to be any reasoning for it. At one point early on she even got Weuler to e-1 but didn't provide any analysis or reasoning. I've always viewed behavior like this as scummy. Kind of just pushing mobile wagons and not giving any reads or anything seems like a common wolf tactic. Elements has made some posts I consider pro-town since then but I'm not sure if she's doing it because people scumread her for all this or what, so I'm still trying to figure that out

[Black]

I feel like Python was giving Freedom a pass too though for not having caught up reading yet. It's been four days now.

I'm not seeing this in python's ISO but maybe I'm missing it

[Black]

Python, I pretty much agree with a lot of what you are saying in that wall. Your playstyle leans townie but like you said it also can come across as wolf imitating townie. I still think comments like this are disingenuous:

If I go and say Meg is scum because their name starts with M and Mafia starts with an M and they flip scum, that's not good scumhunting
If I go and make an in depth analysis on Weuler and come to the conclusion that Weuler is scum due to multiple well-thought out reasons and they flip town, that's not bad scumhunting

I play this game somewhere between these two and I don't think I should be criticized for it. My opinions and reads aren't basic but I also don't feel confidently enough in them to make in-depth analysis or multiple well thought out posts. I think there is value in giving opinions and asking questions and then getting a behavioral read on things. The analysis will come as more information does. For now I think I should be allowed to play how I want, and of course you are more than welcome to think I'm scummy for it

Regarding Arko I just want to reiterate that I will

never

suggest we lim an inactive. I will vote for pressure, push for prods/replacements, etc... but if someone is just straight up not here then that should always be a last resort. This is assuming the player didn't do many scummy things before they vanished a la Arko

[Black]

I'm going to have to do another look over the game in the morning and decide who the best vote is here

[Black]

Ok. Time is running out and it's time to make a decision here.

Before yesterday my most confident scumread was Elements and I wasn't even really confident in the read to begin with. But Elements hit me with 3 posts that I consider very pro-town and they made me rethink things:

StD does not feel town to me. His scum read on me is based off of my vote hopping, which is NAI for me.
269 are the only reads with anything about them other than on me (which again is just for vote hopping). StD then leans on those initial reads as a way to discredit Python saying the only notable thing he's done it to scum me, then by 570 those reads are gone and StD is now towning everyone else?
the only read StD has is that I'm scum.
596 is indeed a cop out, if no one is pinging you why not try and do something to make someone ping you like, idk, voting someone. The whole iso is bland

It doesn't give PRs more info?
It gives them more WIFOM too

They also don't know your alignment so you could be deliberately giving false information to lead them away from who you want to kill. You're also if town telling scum who you think any hypothetical protectives should target and therfore who they shouldn't kill

I'm pretty convinced these posts come from a town perspective. They could be wolf!Elements doing townie things to seem more townie but I don't think that possibility is enough to make Elements our best lim candidate today. If we continue to get analysis like this from Elements then I think she can be valuable for the solve moving forward. Most of my suspicion toward Elements came early when I didn't really understand her playstyle. The bandwagon votes and lack of analysis to back up any of her opinions screamed wolf to me but can easily be explained by Elements herself:

#665 and #666 is the best analysis I've seen from you all game. Idk why it took 27 pages but better late than never!

I'm much more of a vibe read kinda bean than an analysis based reads one

I'm buying this for now even if it could come back to bite me in the butt later

That leads me to my other main scumread: Weuler. Early on Weuler did some things that I liked and didn't like.

Things I liked:
1. Discouraging PR talk
2. Honesty and admitting when they were wrong
3. Going after inactives

Things I didn't like:
1. Felt very surface-levely
2. Case against Aureal was weak
3. Sheeped python when python accused me of flying under the radar

Like Elements though, Weuler seems to be providing more after he was called out for not doing much. I originally wanted to lim Weuler because a) his surface level playstyle was scummy, and b) I thought his alignment would give me more insight into my scumread on Elements because it was around this time that Elements was acting her scummiest and she also put Weuler at e-1. Now that I'm starting to townread Elements I don't think seeing Weuler's alignment helps me in that regard. Seeing him flip town would no longer convince me that Elements is scum like it would have earlier in the game. Weuler has gotten less surface-levely as the day has progressed so I would rather keep him to D2 to see if we can get more of this

When looking elsewhere for a better lim candidate, I don't think Human, Meg, or Freedom are good options at all. I TR Human, Meg's slot could easily be lurky scum but she has had several posts that I consider pro-town since replacing in, and I'm not getting much from Freedom at all. I think that lim'ing Freedom gives us the least amount of information to work with if he does flip town

This leads me to python. This slot is giving me problems. Like Weuler, there are things I really like and things I really don't like coming from python.

Things I like:
1. Good analysis and seems genuine in scumhunting
2. Early progressions felt pretty pro-town to me
3. Overall knowledge of mafia and human psychology in general

Things I don't like:
1. Eagerness to discuss PRs early in the game as well as recently
2. Tunneling while coming up with imaginary scumreads on me
3. Steering the protective role toward certain candidates

#3 here is the scummiest thing they have done all game IMO and Elements was quick to point it out. Python is the type of player that if they're scum, keeping up this type of playstyle should eventually cause them to post themselves into a corner so to speak. If they're town, they are incredibly valuable to town winning the game, and for that reason I don't think they are a good option D1. I would like to hear more from them D2 and possibly get more in-depth analysis on some other players

This finally leads me to StD. I townread him early due to a couple reasons: we agreed that Weuler and Elements were kinda scummy and we also townread Aureal. My opinion on these players (especially Elements) has changed so I no longer consider this a "mindmeld" situation between us. I had to go back and read his ISO to confirm my townread and other than some vibey stuff early, I didn't really get the same read on him as I did at first. StD has been pretty surface-level this game but with just a sprinkle of effort thrown in. It seems like they are doing just enough to be considered helpful and useful, while still maintaining tunnel vision on Elements/Weuler. The whole switching between Weuler and Elements pinged me as him not really caring who gets eliminated as long as it's one of the popular wagons. He couldn't even give a reason for switching from Weuler to Elements when asked about it. My opinion of StD has changed in light of my unexpected TR of Elements, and I think this is the best option for us

VOTE: StD

[Black]

I changed my mind

This was your reasoning for switching from Weuler to Elements after 4 hours. You never elaborated when asked about it. Then you switched back to Weuler shortly after? Also with no reasoning?

Now you give the reason that you're down to vote either, but I'm getting weird vibes here and see 3 options:

1) You're scum and Weuler/Elements are town
2) You're scum and Weuler is your buddy
3) You're town and Weuler/Elements are TBD

The liklihood of you being scum here seems greater than you being town

[Black]

Black aren't all the reasons you townread weuler for textbook townie things?

Because if the reasons you don't want to lim there are all not including anything they actually think about the game that should show its more likely to be scum faking townie than actually an engaged townie

There are other Weuler posts I townread and I can point them out if you'd like. I was just giving examples of things I liked from him from earlier in the game. I agree that he could easily be wolf pretending to be town and that's how I feel about Elements too. However they have both started to contribute more than they did early in the game and I'm seeing more town posts from them than I did before. I'd rather keep them both alive to see if this trajectory continues

I'm not seeing that same progression from StD

[Black]

that also seems like a fallacy to say i'm more likely scum than town

I just meant in the three possible scenarios I see here, two of them include you being scum. I like the chances there

[Black]

I have no idea when I did the things on your list @black

What?

[Black]

Black aren't all the reasons you townread weuler for textbook townie things?

Because if the reasons you don't want to lim there are all not including anything they actually think about the game that should show its more likely to be scum faking townie than actually an engaged townie

There are other Weuler posts I townread and I can point them out if you'd like. I was just giving examples of things I liked from him from earlier in the game. I agree that he could easily be wolf pretending to be town and that's how I feel about Elements too. However they have both started to contribute more than they did early in the game and I'm seeing more town posts from them than I did before. I'd rather keep them both alive to see if this trajectory continues

I'm not seeing that same progression from StD

Counterpoint: Std is town

Do you townread StD?

[Black]

that also seems like a fallacy to say i'm more likely scum than town

I just meant in the three possible scenarios I see here, two of them include you being scum. I like the chances there

Do you think scum!Std does not claim a PR here?

The only possible fake claim for scum!StD would be VT right? Or am I missing something?

[Black]

i could lie about being a pr to bait a counter claim if i were scum

Ok, yeah I can see that, but that would definitely end in you being eliminated, whereas a VT claim is your best option to avoid that

[Black]

While being a likely lim by claiming vt accomplishes ????

Isn't this WIFOM? Y'all are both saying scum!StD would claim PR but how do we actually know that?

[Black]

i could lie about being a pr to bait a counter claim if i were scum

Ok, yeah I can see that, but that would definitely end in you being eliminated, whereas a VT claim is your best option to avoid that

Do you think Std is working hard to avoid elimination?

Absolutely. He has posted more content since being at e-1 than he has all day. Are you not seeing the flurry of posts as suspicious at all??

[Black]

I think StD's actions over the past couple days are wolf motivated. The back and forth between Elements/Weuler especially. StD's main reason for thinking Elements is scum is because Elements has a "garbage" read on him. In the same post he admits that, he says Weuler is giving him null vibes:

i just got new kittens and have had a busy weekend, will try to be more active.

im pretty null on weuler and arko at this point and think Elements is just scum. their read on me is garbage and they keep pushing it like it's obvious but they can't explain it themself.

i'm still having trouble placing other slots into reads.

Then he ends up voting Weuler claiming "something feels off", and that Weuler was more "jokey" in another game they played together, but he backs off of this stance pretty quickly, and his reasoning is that "Weuler actually did make a joke"

what made your read go form scum to null?

Weuler pointed out they posted a joke which made me rethink

So at this point StD has Elements as a scumread and Weuler as a null read. But he then proceeds to switch between the two randomly and reveals that he just wants one of the two eliminated, doesn't matter which, and would be willing to wagon either of them

i think both could be scum so i'm waffling on both of them and more interested in the one i can potentially get limmed

StD has also admitted he won't vote for a TR when he SRs someone. Voting for a nullread when he has a scumread on someone else is fishy to me too and makes me think StD doesn't want to vote for a SR but instead he's willing to vote on whatever wagon has the most mobility

I'm not really going to vote for a town read when I sr someone else so that seems a little disingenuous but I certainly could be more active in interacting with people that is fair

I understand I could be wrong here but I want to trust my gut about my Elements read. And if I'm going that route then my gut also tells me StD is scum

[Black]

i also don't think that's true

i think that you're getting fussed over me changing my vote once and ignoring what content i have provided.

It's deeper than that for me. But I can promise you I haven't been ignoring your content. I just used to look at your content in a townie light, and after rereading this morning that just wasn't the case

[Black]

Like that's normal regardless of alignment, and it's not trying to be particularly convincing to move someone's vote off

I suppose you're right, posting a lot at e-1 is NAI, but I personally don't think a townie should wait until this point to go into defense mode

[Black]

I'm not seeing that?

VOTE: weuler

willing to do elements too

im not going to come up with a flashy analysis wallpost here so if you think i'm scum go ahead and lim me and then consider elements and weuler tomorrow.

This is considered "defense mode" to you?

[Black]

I mean it does address the votes on them no? What do you mean by defense mode?

Well he's not really defending himself here is he? He actually seems pretty defeated and accepting of his fate

If I'm town in this situation then I'm going through the thread to strengthen my scumreads. I think StD isn't confident in his scumreads at all and isn't able to do this, and my gut tells me it's because he's a wolf

[Black]

I thought you said earlier he was acting to not get himself limmed and that made the claim make sense?

That was after he went to e-1. My post was about when he went to e-2

[Black]

Okay I really don't want to quote Black's 785 and snip it down from a phone. So I'm just going to say that the opening of the last paragraph does not seem to be true. Dragons has never said anything about me other than answering Python's question about the supposed scum slip (which I did find a bit weird since it wasn't addressed to him), let alone expressed an early townread. So where is this early on "mindmeld" with him idea coming from?

Yeah I looked back and you're right. I think I equated StD thinking you're telling the truth as him townreading you and believing your explanation regarding the wolf PM. This was definitely part of the mindmeld for me but not the only factor involved

[Black]

That's the same page within just a few hours. I don't think that's a particularly meaningful separation.

I found the change in tone scummy. At e-2 he said "vote for me if you think I'm scum" but then at e-1 he's flurryposting and suddenly defending himself? This doesn't seem like town behavior to me

[Black]

If I'm town in this situation then I'm going through the thread to strengthen my scumreads. I think StD isn't confident in his scumreads at all and isn't able to do this, and my gut tells me it's because he's a wolf

I'm actually finding his lack of confidence rather townie. This game is hella squishy. I think there's been too many slots that just haven't been giving much. Granted, he is one of them but there's enough others that I think it can still be valid.

OK, I can see this perspective. I might be viewing this as scummy because after my reread most things StD was saying seemed scummy to me

[Black]

VOTE: Black

Interesting progression

[Black]

Okay I really don't want to quote Black's 785 and snip it down from a phone. So I'm just going to say that the opening of the last paragraph does not seem to be true. Dragons has never said anything about me other than answering Python's question about the supposed scum slip (which I did find a bit weird since it wasn't addressed to him), let alone expressed an early townread. So where is this early on "mindmeld" with him idea coming from?

Yeah I looked back and you're right. I think I equated StD thinking you're telling the truth as him townreading you and believing your explanation regarding the wolf PM. This was definitely part of the mindmeld for me but not the only factor involved

Okay, so what's with the line about your opinion on these players having changed? I don't think your opinion on me has changed.

Nope. That line was about Elements/Weuler

[Black]

i could lie about being a pr to bait a counter claim if i were scum

Ok, yeah I can see that, but that would definitely end in you being eliminated, whereas a VT claim is your best option to avoid that

Do you think Std is working hard to avoid elimination?

Absolutely. He has posted more content since being at e-1 than he has all day. Are you not seeing the flurry of posts as suspicious at all??

I'm not Meg but isn't this NAI?

Yeah, and I admitted that to Meg after thinking about it

[Black]

Freedom sighting is nice. What are your thoughts here?

[Black]

Surely you have more to contribute than that?

[Black]

Freedom would you mind sharing other TRs you have of StD? I'm having a hard time clearing him over his claim. He's an experienced player and I'm not following why everyone is expecting him to do the usual scum thing here

[Black]

Welp. The deadline is in 14 hours and I'll be busy tonight so I won't be around much. I think as long as we go StD or Weuler we have a decent shot here

[Black]

Whoa

[Black]

Oof

Looks like we're in row 2 but could be any column

Also...hi furtive :3

[Black]

Yeah, Weuler is probably just a wolf at this point. I don't think Weuler/StD is t/t but I guess it's possible. The Elements hammer felt weird too

[Black]

I'm curious about your Aureal read. I think she's my biggest TR and python never really explained why they thought she was scummy either

[Black]

Looks like I was wrong about their partner, but for now I think this is a good vote
VOTE: Elements

I'm not really sure any votes right now are good. It only takes 4 to lim and there are still two scum running around. I feel like it's really important to take our time and make sure we get it right today

[Black]

I was going to ask fugitive why they townread elements but he's only seen the first 10 pages and I too used to townread him but at the moment I am split between weuler and elements and the whole town does not want to get to 5p Elo

What is 5p Elo?

[Black]

Ah ok. Yeah, this is a really important vote.

My strongest TRs are Aureal and Human. Python's slot still confuses the heck out of me, somehow scummy and townie at the same time. Freedom's inactivity was sus but he got replaced so that's probably NAI, and furtive is already posting valuable content. I keep going back and forth on Elements and Weuler this game but if I had to guess... that's our scum team

[Black]

Looks like I was wrong about their partner, but for now I think this is a good vote
VOTE: Elements

I'm not really sure any votes right now are good. It only takes 4 to lim and there are still two scum running around. I feel like it's really important to take our time and make sure we get it right today

Without votes there is no pressure

I like pressure, and idk maybe I'm just wrong here, but I think it's risky to vote unless we are sure. 4 to elim just seems way too easy for wolves to manipulate

[Black]

I want to read more of the game obviously before I pass judgement, but I don't want to read it all at once

Take your time lol. D1 went down to the deadline

[Black]

I expressed it in some of my earlier posts. But basically I don't like some things they have done this game. Openness to discuss PR roles early and also it felt like they were trying to lead the protective role towards the end of D1. Then their whole case against me felt forced and two of the scumreads they brought up were completely made up. Python's ISO is full of posts from both alignments IMO and it's hard to gauge his alignment

[Black]

They're* alignment

[Black]

Their* ...I need coffee

[Black]

Just to briefly clear up the hammer reasoning
I scumread StD over Weuler and StD had already claimed. I didn't want Weuler to claim and narrow the pool for who to kill.
I still think Weuler is probs town

I was going to push Meg today for the unvote on Weuler but guess I won't be doing that!

VOTE: python

Why do you think Weuler is town? And why did you vote for me towards the end of D1?

[Black]

I'm curious about your Aureal read. I think she's my biggest TR and python never really explained why they thought she was scummy either

Thought I went over it in 255? Short answer though was that I took Weuler and Aureal missing the possibility of mason!Human to be slot indicative

Whoops, I see now. I guess I just thought there was more to it. I didn't mean for it to seem like I didn't read your reasoning XD you have to admit it was kinda tucked away a little

Do you still think Aureal is scum? If so I'm curious if you think an Aureal/Weuler scum team is possible since she has pretty much been gunning for him all game

[Black]

Yeah I asked her about the Weuler townread and she said she was going to reset herself. I guess we'll see what she thinks after a refresh

[Black]

Also I don't think we should end day yet. We also shouldn't let it get as close as it did D1. We have plenty of time to talk and figure this out

[Black]

Black, is there anything you want from me? I've read the first 30 pages and the last few.

I can't really ask for more than what you're doing. I don't understand why Human accused you of not saying anything? Like you came in firing off reads and opinions so I'm not sure what that was about

I'm trying to figure out what Weuler flipping town would mean for the Elements and Human slots. I think Elements could still go either way and that her defense of Weuler would just look kinda genius? but Human would just be wolf right?

I probably need to do another thread skim and look over some interactions but it will have to wait until tomorrow. Funny how I'm way less busy at work than I am on the weekends. That's wfh life for you

[Black]

I think I disagree that a Human/Weuler team is unlikely. I think Weuler/Elements is

more

likely but the end of D1 really raised my eyebrows and I think this Human/Weuler interaction is noteworthy:

I'm sorry I had no idea if you guys would come to a consensus when I went to sleep probably should've just hammered in the morning but I was tired and now I don't know why I was thinking that

Because we could actually have flipped weuler if I didn't vote change

I see this as two possible reactions:
1) Human is newtown and he just thought a Weuler flip would be better than an StD one
2) Human is a wolf with Weuler and switched his vote to save him

I feel like #1 is more likely. I've been getting newtown vibes from Human all game and this wouldn't really be any different. #2 is still possible though and it felt like Human regretted switching to StD which could be coming from an informed place if he is scum with Weuler

Python, I'm wondering why you don't consider this an option? Is it because the only way you can see wolf!Human is if he is paired with an inactive player that hasn't been able to help him? I would argue that Weuler has been pretty inactive and surface-level this game, as well as being a new player, so the pieces to your Human/furtive puzzle could still fit if we substitute furtive for Weuler

I want to try to comb back over the game and make a post analyzing player interactions. I will try to do that at work today

[Black]

Ehh. I'm not seeing the same problems as you, but I'm also not nearly as analytical and thorough as you so I might just be missing something here. I like your 3 possible scumteams but I think Weuler/Human is a decent 4th option. Human helped push the StD counterwagon foward whether we can explain the success of the counterwagon or not

I think the lim order should be Weuler >> Elements >> Human and it's probably just gg before we even get to Human. I'm down to go Weuler >> Elements >> Black too, just as long as everyone agrees to lim Human after me if Elements flips town

[Black]

Also, I think Weuler should probably just claim at this point since it's pretty obvious he's the #1 suspect

[Black]

Black I think the most important thing to consider when looking at how likely a Weuler/Human game is is how capable do you think scum!Human is when it comes to realistically bussing Weuler in posts like 762, 768, 770, 782, and 784

These are the types of interactions I wanted to look at when combing through the thread but I just haven't been able to yet. Human jumps on and off the Weuler wagon a lot here. I feel like this could just as easily come from newscum as newtown? But that's if you are just looking at this string of posts in a vacuum. Obviously when we look at Human's game as a whole there are other things that point to newtown

I'm down to go Weuler >> Elements >> Black too, just as long as everyone agrees to lim Human after me if Elements flips town

That'd be one miselim too many:

Flip Weuler 1v4 after nightkill
Flip Elements 1v2 after the nightkill

Whoops. My math wasn't mathing

[Black]

claim or I hammer

What? You're willing to hammer someone you think is town? This feels performative

[Black]

I dunno, I sorta feel like if it was Weuler and Elements he wouldn't still be slipping up on her pronouns??

I kinda had this thought too, but then I asked myself if these two would be using each other's pronouns at all when talking in the PT. What I don't understand is Elements has corrected me the few times I used the wrong pronouns but she hasn't corrected Weuler at all? Idk what that means but it's weird

[Black]

claim or I hammer

What? You're willing to hammer someone you think is town? This feels performative

performative, more like outted

I'm down to flashwagon Elements if people prefer to Weuler, but I want both gone in the next 2 days

Weuler is still the more likely scum option to me tbh. I would rather go Weuler then Elements but if I'm in the minority then I can go either way I guess

[Black]

I don't think pronouns are really relevant to the game apart from that we should use other players' preferred ones

This is pretty much how I feel too

[Black]

I'm not sure what to make of the VT claim. I was sus of StD when he claimed VT but people pointed out that was wrong of me since scum would more likely claim a PR. Do we still feel that way? There is either a Tracker or Neighbor still running around

[Black]

EBWOP: I just noticed JK could have been our only PR

[Black]

If Weuler claimed PR and there was no counterclaim, we absolutely unvote right? Am I missing something?

To me a lot of what makes Elements scummy is her connections with scummy Weuler. If he claimed PR and become conftown I don't necessarily think I would just pivot to Elements. I would have to rethink my scumteam

[Black]

Ok yeah I was missing something lol. Scum!Weuler could claim PR in that setup and still not get counterclaimed. Good point

[Black]

Well that is unexpected. We definitely need to let whoever is replacing Elements get caught up. There's a little under 5 days to the deadline so I feel like we have plenty of time

[Black]

o noes, someone pushing back against Python, I didn't think that was allowed in this game???

I did it before it was cool

[Black]

Lots of walls to read. I'm going to pour my coffee and try to digest it all

[Black]

The HS/freedom/furtive slot is very very likely scum, IMHO. I think furtive is playing too relaxed and his analysis is incredibly lazy, having seen him in games he's more capable than what he's given here. I also think the previous occupants of the slot weren't very towny.

I'm not going to be able to give a meta analysis on furtive. I do have an opinion here but the only game we've played together is ongoing so I can't really share. Can you elaborate on why you think HS/freedom were scummy?

The HS/freedom/furtive slot is very very likely scum, IMHO. I think furtive is playing too relaxed and his analysis is incredibly lazy, having seen him in games he's more capable than what he's given here. I also think the previous occupants of the slot weren't very towny.

From my earlier reading of the game I thought Python and Aureal were both kind of obvtown and while I want to double check them to make sure I'm not overlooking them, initial feeling is scum would more likely reside in weuler/human/furtive/black, and right now I've come to weuler town and furtive scum leaving one in human/black most likely

So you say all we have is analysis from a different game and then you use the argument of analysis from another game...

I think this is a good statement by Human that got a little overlooked. Catboi responded but didn't really address Human's point. Catboi is kinda dismissive of the Weuler case and seems to think the argument about Weuler from another game isn't much to go on, however he contradicts himself by saying the furtive slot is "very very likely scum" because of how furtive has played in other games.

Here's an iso from furtive in another newbie game. While he uses a similar catchup style between the two games, clck the spoilers and note the difference. He's writing a lot more in that game. More depth of thought. Here his posts don't amount to much more than napkin scribbles. He's a good townie but it hasnt really shown here. In that game there's also more fluidity to his reads, he's reacting and re-evaluating and questioning people. There's basically none of that here.

What I've learned after taking ~5 minutes to skim over furtive games is that he doesn't have a consistent playstyle. I would like to know other reasons why you scumread this slot that don't have to do with your meta read

Still catching up but this post is already getting pretty wall-y

[Black]

I want to hear more from (and talk more to) Aureal and Black at this time.

I'm trying. Two wall posters is a lot

[Black]

Catboi knows it's a lot easier to try and make town look scummy than scum look towny, so it's no wonder he talks as little as he can about Weuler.

This is a good point but kinda nullified by Catboi's extensive towncase on Weuler

Part 1 of the towncase (my responses in blue):

catboi why do you townread Weuler?

the early game questioning of human, 119 and 122, feels like a real enough attempt at solving where they're suspicious of the thing human said but are asking for clarity.

Wolves do this too I think. Jumping on the first thing that seems kinda scummy. This feels NAI to me

callout in 136 of black's post as being "look at me i'm so townie" is also fine, i think that's a plausible read to make that can be a sign of actually scumhunting.

Agreed here

I think the progression from 217 to 394 looks like a believable enough re-evaluation, the fact that this happens

after

the pressure on Weuler lowers means it's not being done as a survival tactic.

The vote on Aureal seems a little omgus, and then backing off of it when most of the playerlist townreads Aureal seems opportunistic

I thought the vote on Black in 487 was one scum would be less likely to make, checking context though I can see it was following in response to Python voicin suspicion on Black so it could be scum sheeping a townie there. Not saying that

is

the case but it's possible. Still it feels a logical enough follow-on from 469. The question to Freedom in 488 also feels like there's a town thought process to it - suddenly he suspects Black, saw the previous player in tat slot had townread them, and asks the replacement about it. I think there's probably a train of thought here of thinking there might be a connection between the two players and trying to draw something out with that question. The fact it's not made explicit makes it more likely to be a genuine thought rather than a manufactured one.

I still find this whole progression by Weuler scummy. Sheeping python felt weird and then Weuler never went anywhere with it. He just kinda dropped the sr on me like he did Aureal. I can't remember the timing but I'm pretty sure he stopped being sus of me after python also stopped

The thought on Arko in 490 is also not bad, trying to pattern match behavior in a previous game to this one again feels like someone who is actively thinking about the game.

Agreed here, although I don't think it's abnormal for wolves to do this to appear more townie

The stuff about exploring if STD and Elements could be scum based on scum doing something similar in his last game (531 546 549 552) also seems like someone who is

really thinking

about the game - even while voting elsewhere they're exploring different suspicions, you can see where weuler's thoughts are coming from, all of it is pretty believable to me in that I don't get a sense of it being forced or opportunistic.

I just don't consider "really thinking about the game" as alignment indicative. Do you think all wolves just kinda lolligag through the game without trying to seem townie?

This is why I asked what the case was, because the reasoning presented for suspecting Weuler seems less than stellar.

[Black]

I think this is a good statement by Human that got a little overlooked. Catboi responded but didn't really address Human's point. Catboi is kinda dismissive of the Weuler case and seems to think the argument about Weuler from another game isn't much to go on, however he contradicts himself by saying the furtive slot is "very very likely scum" because of how furtive has played in other games.

You really are completely missing the point if you think I didn't address that and that's an extremely level 0 notion of a contradiction.

I don't think the meta argument against Weuler is convincing because the premise is under-developed. The most furtive has said is that Weuler is "more energetic" in his other games, which is incredibly vague.

I think furtive is scum here because his analysis is insubstantial and lacks depth in comparison to how he plays as town in other games.

These are very different arguments. Are you really having trouble understanding why I believe this to be different?

In your opinion do you think furtive has a consistent playstyle as town, or as scum?

[Black]

Catboi knows it's a lot easier to try and make town look scummy than scum look towny, so it's no wonder he talks as little as he can about Weuler.

This is a good point but kinda nullified by Catboi's extensive towncase on Weuler

What do you think prompted the big case

You already know I think it's just Weuler/Catboi here so this comment feels weird and pockety

[Black]

Catboi knows it's a lot easier to try and make town look scummy than scum look towny, so it's no wonder he talks as little as he can about Weuler.

This is a good point but kinda nullified by Catboi's extensive towncase on Weuler

What do you think prompted the big case

You already know I think it's just Weuler/Catboi here so this comment feels weird and pockety

I didn't know that - you aren't voting

I explained why I wasn't voting. We have 4 days until the deadline, there is no rush

[Black]

Catboi - did you miss my question in #1147 or di you conveniently skip over it?

[Black]

Hey if we're gonna be hyperposting we might as well make it easier on the people that'll have to catch up by not quoting 4 layers deep just to respond to the latest post

What? They don't have to read the quoted part since they should have already read it...

[Black]

Ok, my bad. I'll work on that. I think it's just muscle memory to quote people

[Black]

I think this is a good statement by Human that got a little overlooked. Catboi responded but didn't really address Human's point. Catboi is kinda dismissive of the Weuler case and seems to think the argument about Weuler from another game isn't much to go on, however he contradicts himself by saying the furtive slot is "very very likely scum" because of how furtive has played in other games.

You really are completely missing the point if you think I didn't address that and that's an extremely level 0 notion of a contradiction.

I don't think the meta argument against Weuler is convincing because the premise is under-developed. The most furtive has said is that Weuler is "more energetic" in his other games, which is incredibly vague.

I think furtive is scum here because his analysis is insubstantial and lacks depth in comparison to how he plays as town in other games.

These are very different arguments. Are you really having trouble understanding why I believe this to be different?

In your opinion do you think furtive has a consistent playstyle as town, or as scum?

From what I've seen, like a lot of newer players, he's significantly weaker as scum than as town and doesn't really replicate the solving process he has as town.

Would it matter to you at all if I went on a deep dive to elaborate on my feelings there, or would you be annoyed at me dumping a bunch of extra homework on you? I want to be able to present stuff in a way that's actually parseable/readable to folks. The meta against furtive I thought was pretty self-evident, if folks aren't seeing it I'd deep dive but A) that's a bunch of time spent analyzing games that are not this one and B) is going to be a lot to work through. I'm getting shot down immediately with everything I present so I'm questioning if people are literally that locked in that nothing I say matters or what.

I hope you don't consider what I'm doing as "shooting you down". I just want to pick at some of the things you've said that I find interesting. And yes I personally won't mind if you elaborate your feelings here. If it is a lot of "homework" I can't promise I can get to it or read over it in a timely manner but I will try my best. I think you should play how you want and not really worry about what other people think of it

I would still like an answer for my question in #1147 if you don't mind. What did you find scummy about HS and Freedom?

[Black]

Cat - if your meta read on furtive is your only sr on him then yes, I would appreciate it if you did elaborate. I personally won't view it as scummy if you do. You've been providing a lot of analysis from this game so it's not like you would be using the meta case as a way to get out of talking about current events

But like you said I think your main focus should be this game. I just think if furtive is your #1 Sr and your only evidence is from other games, it would be useful to expand on that

[Black]

Just me or does this feel like catboi is using chainsaw defence

Posts like this make me think Human is more experienced than he actually is. There was also another term he mentioned earlier that I didn't know about (Elo 5 or something?)

Maybe I'm just dumb though

[Black]

Human what is your mafia experience? Have you played forum mafia a lot?

[Black]

Don't have any forum experience but the wiki is informative

So you learned what "Elo" and "chainsaw defense" means by reading the wiki? Not saying you're lying but I just wanted you to clarify

[Black]

Cat feels more towny than elements, but I'm wary about replacements to suspected slots, as it seems like replacing in has a tendency to clear any slot.

I find it strange that Elements and now Cat are the only players that tr you

A) scum!Weuler getting aid from scum!Cat
B) town!Weuler getting cleared by informed scum!Cat
C) town!Cat has a bad read on scum!Weuler
D) town!Cat has a good read on town!Weuler

I feel like one of these is true and it just feels like A is the most likely atm

[Black]

E) Cat wnats to argue with everypone

If you consider this to be an option, what alignment do you think Cat would be here?

[Black]

Your points against freedom make sense. I was sus of his inactivity but I never really got around to analyzing the little activity he did bring to the table. Now that you are bringing his posts to light I'm starting to understand the read better. Also to answer your earlier question Cat, I have no clue how you would play as wolf. When someone I'm suspicious of starts saying "I wouldn't do this as wolf" I start to zone out. Just feels too wifom. But I do understand motives and such must be considered when trying to find scum. I just think it's too easy for wolves to fake motives or do the illogical play to try and say "why would I do that?" If you are scum with Weuler then you coming in here seeing a weak case against your scummate gives you an avenue to defend him while still appearing like you're town. It's risky because if we mislim today because of you, the next two lims will be you and Weuler. But the payoff if you can avoid that is just y'all winning the game

[Black]

I'm having a hard time processing things but I don't have a good excuse other than I think I'm just bad at mafia

Cat's wallpost analysis seems like it comes from town but wolf is just as capable of posting this way so idk

I feel lost

[Black]

Black, can you E-1 Weuler.

VOTE: Weuler

I think there's an 80% chance Weuler is wolf here. If he flips wolf then I feel like it's just him and catboi but now i'm starting to wonder if it could be Weuler/Human. If he flips town then I think catboi is probably town too and I'm not really sure why Human thinks cat should go either way. I'm having a hard time figuring out why wolf!cat would try this hard to clear town!weuler when they could have easily just went along with the game flow and voted Weuler out?

If Weuler flips town then my scum team is probably Human/furtive or Human/python? I don't really feel confident here though

@Cat: It's not necessarily that you are being confusing. You make good points and I like your work ethic in regards to figuring the game out. I just dont feel as analytical as you/python and I don't have the time to go through the thread and reinforce my stance or to figure out where to pivot if I'm wrong. It just feels like a lot of work and I just don't seem to have the time or motivation for it. It's nothing you are doing wrong. I just kinda feel helpless? Since I joined this site a month ago I just keep making bad read after bad read. I don't trust my abilities at all and because of this I don't even feel confident enough arguing my position

[Black]

@python/Cat - I don't want to derail the thread with this so I'll just say I appreciate the advice. I feel like I will be more helpful once I get used to the meta and the people that play here. And obviously if Weuler flips scum that will be a small boost to my confidence haha

I have tr'd Human for most of this game because a lot of his weird actions can be explained by him being newtown but now I'm rethinking that

Cat - Do you consider a Weuler/Human team possible or are you still sold on Weuler being town?

[Black]

Okay, I've solved, it's Human and Weuler. GG all, especially Taly and Human Sequencer.

I don't know what to say here

Like what if Aureal was just right here? Why did this solve leave Human speechless?

I have some time to go through the thread rn so I'm going to try to get a fresh perspective

[Black]

A little bit of mafia.gg and town of Salem but that's pretty much it.

Don't have any forum experience but the wiki is informative

Is this a lie or am I nitpicking words here? He played on mafia.gg a little but then later said he doesn't have any forum experience? Mafia.gg is a forum correct?

[Black]

Ahh ok. I tried looking it up and couldn't find much about it so I just assumed it was a forum. That point is pretty null then