A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Zdenek]

Well today is going to be easy.

[Zdenek]

My current bet is that scum have day talk and Regfan is scum with DCX.

And gut tells me that MoS is scum.

[Zdenek]

How much of the game have you read?

Most of it. I skimmed when I said I'd be keeping up.

[Zdenek]

One thing that is pretty clear is that Tierce is scum:

- the "case" on Feysal at the start of the game.
There's this doozy,

I find it curious that you have null reads on three of the weakest players in the game.


How sad that this thread would ignore redFF's scumminess. Minimum is a bad lynch and, moreover, we wouldn't want to ruin CES's record of not getting lynched, now would we?

UNCHOOSE: Feysal
CHOOSE: Minimum

The two quotes above show why I'm wary of SnowStorm and really want this wagon to go through. He seems to be deliberately use my words for 'things one should qualify as town'.

This is a terrible stretch.

I believe that Tierce is distancing from Feysal she votes off and on him easily, but isn't pushing this idea at all near the deadline.

I agree with the Totally Anonymous Head of the furry critter re: Shinori and redFF. Town guns pointed this way please and thank you.

Contradiction Alert!!!

There is nothing wrong with stating who we'd like to be our nominal Jon Snow, but I disagree with attempts to direct actions on N1.

No one is doing that, thus my confusion as to why he's playing the pity card when no one is pushing him on policy (though yes, he deserves it).

I totally don't think that MoI was playing the pity card and this is just BS time wasting.

Yes, we want a nameclaim + the partner to vouch for him. Then we'll see about swinging this elsewhere.

Deathworthy.

Then when this is the vote count:

The History of the Rhoynish Wars is a book written by Beldecar. A copy can be found in the library of the Red Keep.[1]

Day 1, Votecount 41

Saporerint (6) - bvoigt, Mastermind of Sin, Shadow1psc, BBmolla, Shinori, Albert B. Rampage
Feysal (1) - Starbuck
Shinori (1) - Staeg
Shadow1psc (3) - Lyanna Stark, Benmage, kortul

bvoigt (9) - Plum's Yo Mamma, greenknight, SnowStorm, Dolorous Edd, Tyene Sand, Pandora, MagnaofIllusion, Seraphim, StefanB

Jal (1) - DCLXVI
DCLXVI (2) - Regfan, Minimum

Not Voting (5):

Mockingjaye, Plessiezrus, Jal, Feysal, Saporerint

With 28 alive it takes 15 to lynch.

• Deadline
  : 5th September at 11:59pm Ireland time. (GMT+1)
  
• Countdown to deadline
  : (expired on 2012-09-05 18:59:59)
  
• MJ may be V/la for a hurricane. Starbuck/Benmage/MOI are all V/la.

CHOOSE TO EXTERMINATE

Dolorous Edd (1) - Jal

Feysal (9) - Bvoigt, greenknight, Shinori, DCLXVI, Dolorous Edd, Benmage, Albert B. Rampage, Pandora, SnowStorm

Minimum (2) - StefanB, Lyanna Stark
Starbuck (1) - Starbuck
Shadow1psc (1) - Mockingjaye
greenknight (9) - Plum's Yo Mamma, Minimum, Tyene Sand, Plessiezarus, kortul, Seraphim, MagnaofIllusion, Regfan, Feysal
kortul (4) - Mastermind of Sin, BBmolla, Staeg, Shdow1psc

Not Choosing (1):

Saporerint

With 28 alive it takes 15 to 'Choose'. Once a choose has 15 votes it will be locked in but not end day.

Prodding Tyene Sand and Staeg.

Apparently this weekend is some sort of US holiday, so I'll be a little more slack for picking up prods and might just send a massprod out tomorrow.

she does this:

UNCHOOSE: greenknight
CHOOSE: DCLXVI

A vanity choose (something she's criticized others for doing) after voicing suspicion of Feysal.

The last point against Tyenne Sand is that there's a lot of blathering in her posts and odd voting choices.

[Zdenek]

One thing that really struck me as odd were the Feysal chooses early in the game. I don't think that Feysal comes across as particularly town, and if he were to flip scum I'd probably look into those choose votes pretty carefully.

[Zdenek]

Lyanna, I'll admit the fact the hydra-partner of Shinoris isn't 'new' does weaken the town-tell but while he may be nervous and weak as scum I don't think his solution to counter that would be bringing into it another player he has to have hydra-interactions with since they'd have to fake read disagreements ect.

Regfan could be scum because of this. He's maintaining a town-read for an absolutely ridiculous reason.

On a related note: the hydra dissonance has to end, and if it doesn't we start lynching them. We have to eventually be able to hold these slots accountable for their reads.

[Zdenek]

MoI forgetting about bbmolla being in the game was weird, and his self-choose felt contrived.

VOTE: Snowstorm. The level of crap being posted by yours truly has reached the point of no return.

This is just incredibly bad for MoI - he's voting some one for posting crap rather than for being scum.

MoI's attack on Minimum bothers me too. It reminds me of his attack on Twilight Sparkle in ASOS, where he attacked another Mina-hydra. I kind of think that this is a scum strategy of his because it can give him potentially days worth of time wasting arguments. I also didn't really like when he backed down on that argument and eventually resorted to sniping.

Frankly, I don't think that any of this is all that conclusive, but I don't certainly think that the town reads on MoI aren't warranted.

[Zdenek]

And yes, I 'blather' a lot. That's who I am and how I play. Deal with it.

I'd like rope to deal with it.

[Zdenek]

I jumped off greenknight because he claimed masons. I didn't go back to Feysal because I was not convinced Feysal was scum. And I was the first on a wagon that result in the death of scum. What the hell are you criticizing here? Don't I have a right to start wagons too? Unless you're claiming that I jumped off a mason onto my scumbuddy and pushed that wagon until the end (which was a wagon I had been supportive of from the beginning due to redFF, I have no idea how you think it makes sense for me to be scum at this stage.

The point was that you had the opportunity to Vote for DC and there were votes on him, but instead you decided to push for him to be chosen, when there were no choose-votes on him.

[Zdenek]

Vote: MoI

for loving all the same fandoms that I do.


I'm a little surprised at the quick Chooses right out the gate before you can even get a bead on reads.

Are you also surprised about the quick votes out the gate before you can even get a bead on reads?
Pointless observation to look town and like she's really putting 'thought' into the game, when obviously if she was actually thinking she would realize how much of an inane statement this is.

What's the difference between a choose before you can get any reads and a vote before you can get any reads?

I guess there really isn't one. I just would rather put my Choose vote on someone that could be trusted to follow through on the action rather than give it scum or a policy lynch.

I know we can gain info from the Choose votes, but I still question those who immediately Chose someone because, again, it should not fall into the hands of the scum.

this is something similar to the above, why shouldn't we choose scum? It's a day 1 lynch and if we do get scum with it I'd always take a 1for1 trade, who wouldn't? Another post to look pro-town where if any town-minded thought was put towards it Starbuck would've realised that a 1for1 trade is always worth it.

vote:starbuck

choose:feysal

I think the multi-scum slip is enough to go off at this stage, see how feysal continues to react.

also I'm

V/LA until Friday

, sorry about the timing but I was pre-inned for this and didn't want to miss out, I leave tomorrow so you might get some more posts from me tonight, just posting this in case i forget.

I was bothered like many by Starbuck's early play, but her later play plus this means that she almost for sure not aligned with RedFF/DCX.

[Zdenek]

IIRC Faraday prefers to do over daytalk, but I might be wrong).

In ASOS, LMP and I, a scum team of 2 had day-talk. I don't think that the main scum team did, but I could be wrong.

In AFFC, there was only one scum team with day talk.

[Zdenek]

A few things as I read through again (currently through page 13):

I think D. Edd is pretty obv. town
Shinori/Hyperion is probably town
Staeg seems town.

I would lynch Saporient based on the play of Salamance.

Lyanna, do you still have a scum read on Minimum and could you explain it if you do?

Cow is Town. Yay!

Why?

And I’m outright saying the odds that they are written that way in an Eddard Stark game is as close to zero as they get. I’ve been scum in all of the previous games. Two of which were multi-scum. The scum PMs made NO mention of the other factions directly.

My point to you was this – it looked very much like you are ‘inventing’ a reason to suspect Feysal for bringing up Multi-ball possibilities. And I’ve seen scum use the “they mentioned Multiball, they are scum” to attack Town in games here on-site.

Did MoI ever get around to attacking Sand for basically the same thing?

[Zdenek]

Haven't read Bvoight in ISO, but his posts haven't struck me as too bright or too townie, so I wouldn't weep if the lynch landed there.

tbqh, I think that the claim makes bvoight MORE likely to be scum, but vigs can prove themselves and are counterclaimed with bullets etcetc

Yeah, a bv scum flip doesn't look good for Staeg. The first post looks like distancing and the second looks like gunning for town cred off a Bv scum flip, but he unvotes bv in his next post.

[Zdenek]

Through page 32:

Vote: Pandora

Choose: Pandora

Fuck anonymous hydras.

MoS isn't reading the thread, and this is a pretty silly policy lynch and he's proposing while there is reasonable discussion going on.

EBWOP: oh, I just noticed that CES explained it here. Considering you're voting us, Salamence, shouldn't you be paying more attention to our posts?

This is just to remind myself to keep track of minimum's suspicions of the Salamance slot.

Also thought about Starbuck a bit today and I'm inclined to agree with Nacho, the whole "Give it to a VT so they can shoot" and 'self-vote' given her stance/thoughts on what the choose was is a fairly big town-tell and while I hate to admit it, she's very probably town.

You seem to have no problem with calling other people town. Why do you hate to admit that she is very probably town?

Well let’s see – your reason for calling Feysal scum is not that he called out Multiball but that he didn’t do it in a ‘Feysally fashion’ that indicates Town. It’s wrong but very different from Dol Edd who has possibly committed the “Jump on the first person to mention Multiball as possible / likely” tell that I’ve already explained.

Oh MoI, I expect so much better from you.

If we choose scum,

in the best case said scum misses town and cross kills rival scum

, and in the worst case he kills town, resulting in a one for one trade.

This is multiball?

How can you be so sure (unless it's made obv somewhere)?

UNCHOOSE: Lyanna Stark
CHOOSE: Feysal

PEdit: That.

Actually,

Choose: Feysal

I just re-read the first posts. No where does it state we have more than one scum team. It's indicated a bit, but the way you said it makes it seem more than assumption.

Don't be stupid, you two.

EBWOP: Edd and Tyene, that is.

It's far likely that this is multiball due to several factors, but I hate the way it was worded: Feysal isn't one to gloss over something he's just

assuming

, he's likely to explain it thoroughly.

They literally voted him for the same reason - talking about the game being multiball in a way that made them think that it wasn't an assumption.

Yup Shadow1 is scum also.

You tried to use AFFC meta in GvE, LvC mafia to attack Shadow1. Why do you still think that it's going to work here? Or if that wasn't because of meta, why did you think that he's scum?

Aaand the major hydra dissonance just showed that Edd is (are?) town (again). Thank you, come again, and I really should be napping, this Dornish sun is far too hot to face at this hour.

Hydra dissonance is not a town-tell; it's too easily faked.

I'm not sure how CES can compare between two different games.

Are you saying that comparing of two game (aka meta) isn’t valid?

When you read his whole post, it's pretty obvious what he was getting at:

I'm not sure how CES can compare between two different games. The last game we played I replaced in during lylo, honestly, I don't see how you can compare my lylo play (which is very shitty, I admit) to Day 1. CES never played a full game with me.

MoI is bothering me rather severely at the moment - his argument that Tierce's vote on Feysal was different that D. Edd's is bad and he's taken one line of Sala's post out of context in order to attack him. Both of these things seem fairly scummy to me. The reason that I am bothered is that after playing with MoI quite a few times, I've gotten the impression that he does things like this more as town, and is more careful when he is scum.

Overwhelmed by the pace.

I thought this was pretty obvious. Then again, not that surprising that Tammy can't understand basic implications when she's trying really hard to paint someone as scummy.

Oh the irony.

As for Starbuck, I don't think much of her claim or her Choosing herself. That is the kind of move I could see coming from inexperienced scum under pressure, as a last ditch effort.

Do you think that Starbuck is inexperienced scum?

This has an implication that twists the context of my words. That was my Choice before Tammy posted. It was not whimsical, it was not RVS, but it did not actually have to do with my reads in the game, since she had not posted.

I think that this is a good point against Feysal, and one thing that bothers me a lot is how Sand's scum read on Feysal vanished later.

I expect ~things~ from redFF. I also expect to be disappointed.

Since, he was apparently a scum read of yours, it's strange that you are providing him with the VI defence.

So far I think that Tammy Stark is town, but her comment to Shinori when he replaced in:

Just subbed in, anyone wanna give me a general overview of what's happened? Other than that I'll probably re-read and get fully caught up tomorrow.

##Unvote:

##Unchoose:

Yeah, make this easy and tell us who your partners are

concerns me because she didn't have a scum read on hyperion.

I think that Pandora is town. For a few reasons, but the best so far is post 660, attacks both Shinori and RedFF, but then dulls the attack on Shinori a little.

I think that PlessZar is probably for almost the same reason.

Unvote, Vote: Sala

While I don't have a problem with this vote, it comes at an odd time - Plum had just presented the case against bvoigt - and it seems to go against the flow of the game.

MoI's snowstorm vote comes a little later, it was for pretty bad reasons.

Should bvoigt flip scum, I think these two are good guesses for buddies.

[Zdenek]

To the end of day one.

The content from the rest of Kortul's last post was fine, nice misrep on him.

I doubt that Kortul is scum with DCL.

I'm leaning town on Benmage, but there were a few things that bothered me with his early play - some buddying and I don't like that he called for snowstorm's mason buddy to claim.

If you're SnowStorm's mason buddy, this is your time to claim. Otherwise your Frey friend eats rope.

UNVOTE: SnowStorm
VOTE: bvoigt

Demanding a claim while unvoting makes no sense.

I'm leaning town on Shinori for the reasons surrounding his becoming a hydra.

Assuming bvoigt flips scum, my town read on Tammy will be weakened by this:

So so so tired of Shadow doing nothing but sniping from the sidelines. Like really, I suppose according to Post 724 he's got some magnificent ~role~ he knows will keep him off the lynch/choose wagon but does that mean we have to be subjected to an entire game full of sniping/cutesy gifs/gloating type posts??? Like seriously, can we just lynch/choose him and be done with it? Please???

VOTE: Shadow

I realize this votes means nothing and I'll be moving it tomorrow, but if I had my ice cream and dreams of lynches it would be this one.

Meh, I don't know what to make of bvoigt. We just finished a game together in which he was scum and I got a scum read on him pretty quickly but that might have been due to his reaction to a reaction test. I don't like his responses in regard to satancat though. Feels natural enough, but the bit about town not defending themselves...eh...he used this as part of his case against me being scum when I wasn't in the game we just finished. I'm not sure I can be partial here...but he doesn't feel the same as when he was scum. But, I've seen him make a case against someone (me) when he was scum and it didn't look like his reasons for voting Sala.

VOTE: Bvoigt

My next most viable scum read.

This makes me doubt my previous comment about MoI and bvoigt.

You realize there's a reason we're hydraing, right, MoI?

Bvoigtwagon seems to me mostly a matter of him being not that strong a player but not to the point where it looks like an easy lynch. His posting seems fine to me.

Tammy, you should choose greenknight.

Failure to acknowledge plum's case.

Okay, so I'm not caught up and probably won't be for another 3 days (and uh deadline's in 4 and a quarter so), so I'll join this thread from here and talk and stuff.

This is pretty bad. Staeg started out fine, but his vanishing act and refusing to even try to catch-up is terrible.

But for now i am more than comfortable with choosing him, and would vote him if his Vote wagon had any chances, he is more scummy than Salamance20.

CHOOSE Shadow1psc

Uhhh...Shadow had more votes than chooses...why the fuck would you be comfortable choosing him but lament the fact that he doesn't have enough votes to be a viable wagon?

In fact, to further illustrate this point, there are two vote wagons of 8 and 6 right now. There are also two choose wagons of 8 and 6. The competition for a Shadow wagon for both voting and choosing is

exactly

the same. The only difference is that Shadow has more votes than chooses. So why the fuck would you say his vote wagon had no chance and then go ahead and choose him, which by your own logic has even

less

of a chance at succeeding?

Unchoose, Choose: Kortul

Kill it with a fiery passion!

You think that is a scum tell from Kortul?

I think this is a pretty bad vote coming from MoS.

Also thank you yes Kortul is scum too.

Why?

So let's vote Sala and choose Kortul. 2 for 2 D1s are hard to beat!

^This please.

Unchoose
Choose: Kortul

This sudden attention on Kortul really rubs me the wrong way. That goes for Staeg too.

Nacho, convince me your Kortul scum-read isn't bullshit.

Regfan, convince me mine is.

Well, he just explained his stance and you ignored it.

So the strength of read in favor of kortul-scum I expressed in my previous post is considerably greater than it should be, upon reflection

Well okay.

19) Mastermind of Sin -- His posts feel barren, but ~~~events~~~ make me think he's town.

can you elaborate?

I feel like Benmage is trying way too hard to get a compromise lynch, rather than picking someone that he thinks is scum and getting that person lynched.

You seem to be one of the few people, if not the only person, to suspect Starbuck. What makes shooting her a better idea than shooting someone who you have a weaker scumread on, but also is more of a consensus choice as scum?

At this moment, Feysal was a potential choice for being chosen, and if bvoigt flips scum, Starbuck is a good guess for a partner.

Feysal's 1263 is a solid post

by 1278-1279 I've started feeling better about Tyene. Then she decide bvoigt is town.

Tyene, post 1294, why was bvoigt town?

What does shadow do? Jailkeep a cop, to find out they have investigate...

Sounds like an uber scum role.

Still down to hang.

My read on Benmage has shifted to leaning scum. He's defended DCL, bvoigt (who will likely flip scum), he demanded that snowstorm's buddy claim and now he'd prefer to lynch the claimed power-role. All of this taken in combination makes him pretty likely scum.

I'm still happy with a Shadow lynch. MoI's "dead man" point doesn't work because we already have outed Masons. I think we should stick with Shadow rather than have someone else claim with less than 2 days to deadline.

Feysal's SS wagon position and greenknight iso make me more comfortable with him as the Choose.

- Iec

EDIT: lolwat.

So it will take a few more days, but the argument stands.

- Plum is probably scum too, based mostly on meta with Nacho.
- Also, pretty much almost every person Kortul looks up is scum.

1. Why?
2. Who?

I don't really understand why you would vote for Stefan over bvoigt here. You don't seem to have a read on either one (unless I'm misinterpreting "haven't found a compelling reason not to vote"?), and bvoigt is surely a more viable lynch at this point?

This is a good point.

And Tyrion is basically Aegon-aligned in ADWD from what I understand (i.e., only have wiki-tier knowledge of books 3-5).

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the mods would have given out scum a fake-claim that is so bad, it could lead to their lynch or no fake claim at all?

Wait, StefanB soft-claimed Tyrion?

Unvote, Vote: StefanB

Kill it with fire.

What?

[Zdenek]

Zdenek--at best you are skimming my posts, at worst you're scum.

I jumped off greenknight because he claimed masons. I didn't go back to Feysal because I was not convinced Feysal was scum. And I was the first on a wagon that result in the death of scum. What the hell are you criticizing here? Don't I have a right to start wagons too? Unless you're claiming that I jumped off a mason onto my scumbuddy and pushed that wagon until the end (which was a wagon I had been supportive of from the beginning due to redFF, I have no idea how you think it makes sense for me to be scum at this stage.

And yes, I 'blather' a lot. That's who I am and how I play. Deal with it.

Explain how me being suspicious of you is scummy, how your read on Feysal developed and, while i asked this in one of my longer posts I'll repeat it here, why you thought bvoigt was town at the end of the day.

Maybe we make like a top 3 townie list... and vote amongst them... so scum really can't kill any of the three.. Me likes this.

I think this roughly a good idea - I mean I think it make sense for us to pick three people to be protected maybe not top three townies. For instance if Shinori doesn't give out his information, I'd like his name on the list.

@Zdenek, i am curious, how do you read the thread? Your comment one thing, than in some later posts comment things that happened earlier. Ie do you reread several times, or are you doing ISOs, or is it something completely different?

When I first said that I'd be replacing in, I skimmed the thread and took note of a few things that stood out to me. Now I've commented on some of those things and gone back over the thread.

Zdenek have you seen Regfan as scum before? To us, the way he voted StefanB looks quite natural coming from him as hypoTown. Plus, Regfan calling people town for reasons God only knows he has doesn't ping my ScumDar (this is Zar speaking).

I have never seen Regfan as scum. Can he not fake his town meta?

What does hypotown mean?

And yes, I was speculating about the night-kills. The way the kills are ignored in current meta is disgraceful--I like discussing them and referring back to earlier impressions on later days.

Examples of you doing this?

Wait, what?

Plum's case wasn't even on the same page...are you kidding me? I voted Sala as a counter to the Minimum wagon (and still think that slot is scum, by the way), there wasn't even a bvoigt wagon at that point. I didn't even see Plum's case at that time...how the fuck could I have been purposefully acting against it? How the hell did you think this was a remotely plausible connection?

Since when do things have to be on the same page to happen close to one another? It was on the next page.

Why did you ignore Plumamma's case?

What does this comment refer to?

The comment about MoI's argument about Shadow's claim being sorted out at night.

You have to compare it to the probability of Tyrion being town -- not just to the absolute probability on its own. Tyrion was what jumped out to me when I went back after reading Stefan and Plessie's comments.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

[Zdenek]

Because the way you're talking about your suspicion of me (and other people) seems to have skips of logic that don't make sense as something that is not deliberate misrepresentation. I might get back to you with more detail.

This has to be the slipperiest wording I have ever seen. If you want to accuse me misrepresenting something, do it with examples. This Zdenek doesn't look like he's not misrepresenting people is bullshit. The fact that you are trying to paint me as scummy with this shit is another reason you need to die.

Knowing that he doesn't have this meta-info tones down my scumread on Feysal, because I originally thought he was deliberately misrepresenting my actions.

Which actions?

Reads, in no particular order within the categories:

Town:
Shinori
Shadow1psc
Plessiezarus (Zar/Plessiez)
Pandora (Shadoweh/Quilford)

Leaning Town:
Lyanna Stark (Tammy)
Dolorous Edd (Ser Arthur Dayne/bodean44)
kortul
MagnaofIllusion
Plum's Yo Mamma (Nacho/Plum)
Feysal
Mockingjaye

Null:
Starbuck
Jal - actually she looked pretty good on the last page.
Regfan
Benmage

Leaning scum:
Minimum (Mina/CES)
Staeg
Magua
Saporerint (Iecerint/Saporovirus)
BBmolla

Scum
Bvoigt - obviously at this point.
Mastermind of Sin
Tyene Sand (Tierce)

Some explanations:

Magna - the concerns that I had about him earlier are alleviated by his play and while I do not find him an easy player to read, I think he's town.

Benmage - meta puts him as town, but his actions clearly benefited scum.

Minimum (Mina/CES) - of their day one play, essentially nothing stood out to me, I find some of their actions weird (I'm thinking especially of Mina's sudden desire to lynch bvoigt right at the end of the day), and I find some of the more emotional posts overwrought.

The read on Saporient is because of Sala's play, and I'm pretty willing to evaluate that slot as time goes on with the new players there.

[Zdenek]

This has to be the slipperiest wording I have ever seen. If you want to accuse me misrepresenting something, do it with examples. This Zdenek doesn't look like he's not misrepresenting people is bullshit. The fact that you are trying to paint me as scummy with this shit is another reason you need to die.

Sit and calm the hell down. Are you just skimming or what? I said I'm in the middle of a gaming session and gave you the cliff notes--you seriously can't expect me to draft a wall while I'm hacking at Eberron critters. I'll get back to you on it, I'm not going anywhere.

As for Feysal, you can start reading my posts and his. I'm not going to rehash that discussion again, it's plenty evident, in our posts, where I changed my mind and I'm not going to phrase it again for your convenience. Go ISO or something while we wait for bvoigt.

First of all, calling that "the cliff's note version" doesn't change anything. To that comment looks like it was worded so that you could paint be as scummy, while avoiding actually accusing me of deliberately misrepresenting anyone.

As for this Feysal business, as far as I can tell the only thing that you could be referring to is this post of his:

You know, explaining that you would have Tammy out of the game before she had posted, and apparently Amrun too if she were playing, does not make any more sense to me. If you were not being whimsical or random voting, what was it? Neither of those players is one I would ever consider lynching on policy. And what was the point of post #237 anyway, since it reads only as being sort of dismissive of their ability as players? For the record, when I said I would have Tammy in LYLO if I could it was not just about her being obvious town, it was a vote of confidence that I would trust her with making the right choice.

That brings me to what I wanted to know in the first place. What is up with the constant jabs between you and Tammy? You act like there is an unresolved grudge or twenty that you are feuding over.

And your read on him changing as a result of you discovering that his meta on you wasn't as good as you thought it was makes no sense considering the other points that you raised against him.

[Zdenek]

You're really wrong on this read. You really really are. I would bet almost anything she's town. I suggest stepping back and re-reading her ISO later on, you'll find that her scumhunting, demeanor and play is actually incredibly townie despite her mind-changes on a few people. Her paranoia about scum in the strong players is super genuine and the manner of her pointing out the Feysal multiball 'slip' as well as Ices PM-posting 'slip' are extremely town.

I disagree. I think that she is attempting to seem town by doing things that she thinks are townie, but that she is being disingenuous. For instance, her demanding and the retracting the demand for snowstorms partner to claim. There's also,

There is nothing wrong with stating who we'd like to be our nominal Jon Snow, but I disagree with attempts to direct actions on N1.

I agree with the Totally Anonymous Head of the furry critter re: Shinori and redFF. Town guns pointed this way please and thank you.

First saying that she disagrees with attempts to direct night actions and she directs them.

do try to make sure to iron out that hydra dissonance. It can be quite bothersome.

Adding a bit more to what Regfan said about Pandora being town: moreso than Shadoweh revealing identities, I believe that Quilford's post in straight contradiction of what she had done (defending Feysal followed by voting Feysal) is a towntell.

She complains about hydra dissonance and then calls it a town-tell. Personally, anything that I think is a town-tell, I'd be quite happy to see coming from anyone because then I could evaluate it to decide if it's genuine or if it's being faked.

So I'm not quite sure why she finds it bothersome, and I think that she's pretending to find it bothersome because hydra-dissonance is a townie thing to complain about.

As far as Tierce's comment about strong players goes,

Mark my words--there is scum among the strong players in this game, and they are hiding in the numbers of townreads (probably to foster paranoia, to which I say whelp, too late, suffering from it since Yesterday).

I don't place much stock in it because the same sentiment was voiced earlier by Minimum.

I really think there are scum among the widely trusted strong players, though, because all the weaker players/easier lynches keep doing stuff that looks town.

Replacing Iece's mispost into his explanation we get:

4. I asked the Mod how he was operationalizing "active" vs. "passive."

5. The Mod clarified that it depended upon whether a player used his ability on selected players.

6. I assume I don't have an active ability, correct?

7. The Mod clarified, resolving the apparent discrepancy.

I don't buy it.

I still need to read PlessZar's posts.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek: for the record, I know for a fact that Tyene had an earlier post saying basically the exact same thing about having town reads among the scum players (referring to the SnowStorm wagon), because when I wrote that post, I was actually thinking, "Oh, Tierce picked up on the same thing."

Are you talking about this one?

There's scum hiding against my magical townreads and this is pissing me off--I literally have townreads on 8/10+ of that SnowStorm wagon, but I also have trouble believing that scum would stay off such a juicy wagon for so long. In addition, if this is multiball, my "is scumhunting y/n" reads get shot to hell and back. Regardless, I am not about to start a wagon on a frigging townread at this stage in the Day. Honestly I'm not even sure how I'd start to go about de-confirmation-biasing myself with this set. I'm ready for a Night and seeing what happens then.

Because I don't think expressing doubt about town reads is the same as thinking there are scum among the strong players.

As for the rest of your points, not to do Tyene's defending for her, but can you explain how any of those are alignment-relevant? Is scum more likely than town to make superficial "contradictions" like "The vig should kill who he wants" and "I wish this player was vigged" (which is different from "We are forcing the vig to kill this player," anyway).

For the point you have mentioned, it wasn't the vig should kill who he wants and I wished this player was vigged. It was: "I disagree with attempts to direct actions on N1" and "Shinori and redFF. Town guns pointed this way please and thank you." I don't think that things like this are particularly strong scum-tells, but I think they are more likely to come from scum because it shows that the person writing them was saying something that they don't actually believe, which suggests that they are saying it for some reason other than that they think it is true, and who says things for that reason - scum.

I don't really feel like going through and explaining why each point I've raised against her is a scum-tell, and I think it should be pretty easy to figure out for most of them. If there is anything you want to know about anything in particular, I'll answer.

1. Because of meta with Nacho.

That's not really an answer.

[Zdenek]

Actually, it is an answer. Just not the type of answer you're apparently looking for. So what are you looking for?

Ideally, descriptions of his play as town and scum, and why his play here is closer to his scum play.

[Zdenek]

My vote's in.

Cow who was an early Town read

Mind saying why?

Regfan didn't single-handedly get DCLXVI lynched (Tyene for one deserves as much or more credit, I think)

I think what you mean to say is that Tyene deserves the credit for making sure 666 was made assassin last night, rather than lynched.

Dear Lord why.

Because hydra-dissonance leads to the slot being able to pick between the stances of the players in the hydra if it ever becomes convenient for the reason "My other head convinced me," and we can't have that as the game goes forward.

This is just ridiculously disingenuous. The whole post smacks of contrived reasons to say something about MoI - which amounts after a couple of paragraphs to the useless 'Townreads on MoI aren't so warranted'. Seriously.

That is ridiculous. MoI switching votes from scum read Minimum to SnowStorm because of SnowStorm posting crap "is" bad for MoI.

And who's the guy who just suggested a policy-lynch of hydras doing hydra things that make them 'less easy to read'?

Was it actaully unknown who was in the hydra? No. Was MoS vote of the hydra for a stupid reason that shows that's not reading the thread or pretending to not read the thread. Yes.

And my gosh, everyone ignored our initial case on bvoigt. Seriously. Basically, too much looks too disingenuous for me to be letting this go any time soon. The whole thing, especially the attacks on Tyene, smack of setting up conventional 'tell parameters' of a sort to make his attacks seem sound. They are not. They ignore crucial and obvious factors.

1. I wasn't in the game when the case on bv. was presented, by the time I was here, he was nearly conf. scum, so what's you're point/
2. There is nothing disingenuous here, so diaf.
3. "Tell parameters?" Are you inventing jargon to try to paint me as scummy because I have no idea what that means.
4. Ok, you think I'm wrong about Tyene. Instead of writing vague BS, point out what you think is wrong.

Okay, bugger that. I can't be bothered to muster the patience to show Zdenek the amount of crap he's throwing in hopes it sticks.

Whatever your alignment: you're wrong. Plum put it quite well, and considering there is a grand total of three people calling me scum, it's going to be a long time before I can be convinced to spend time defending myself from a lynch that's not going to happen.

Plum's points were garbage. Maybe you won't be lynched . . .

Kill: Tyene Sand

[Zdenek]

This should be interesting. After Blood Bowl and Mafia Behind the Maiden, I'm done mustering the emotional willpower to complain about vid kills. If it's true, so be it, and you're an idiot if you're town. If it's fake, you're an idiot too.

No final reads. tsk tsk.

[Zdenek]

No final reads. tsk tsk.

Stupid Daykill gambit ... tsk tsk ...

Are you reading the things that Tyene is writing:
"Plum put it quite well."
"the way you're talking about your suspicion of me (and other people) seems to have skips of logic that don't make sense as something that is not deliberate misrepresentation"

It's crazy talk. Tierce isn't a VI, so she's doesn't get that excuse for this.

[Zdenek]

I expect I'll be hurting Saporient, but I am willing to wait for a claim.

As far as the Godhand thing goes, I'd like to use it on someone who is null through scummy, but unlikely to be lynched/a good player who if confirmed as town, could have a positive effect on the game. My preferences are, Tyene Sand (Tierce), Minimum (Mina/CES), Benmage and Magua.

As far as this Staeg business goes, the more I think about it the more I think that he is a scum-mason hunter because to me that makes a heck of a lot more sense than him being a weak-town cop (being able to only detect Frey's) and while there is some chance of him being able to detect scum fake-claims, that would require the mods to have given the scum Frey fake-claims and put a Frey cop in the game, which seems somewhat bastard. Basically the only way I can see him as town is if there are a bunch of Frey's in the game, which is conceivable because there are a lot of them, but I think it would be weird, and we have no reason to think that's the case.

MoI, I'm still wondering why you thought Cow was town.

bvoigt defended Starbuck pretty aggressively, and Starbuck had nothing to say about bvoigt, so I would be happy to lynch Scumhunter sometime.

[Zdenek]

My questions to you – why the strong focus on Cow (now Magua) and my read on him? Do you think Magua is scum? Why did you choose me last Night?

Because I didn't see why Cow should have been town, I am trying to get a better read on that slot, and knowing why you think what you do could be helpful.

I think Magua could be scum, but he's not in my top choices at the moment.

Because I think you are probably town and a likely target for a nightkill, so a good person to protect at night.

[Zdenek]

Step 1: ISO Tyene.
Step 2: CTRL-f sala
Step 3: Look at these posts,

At a glance, the Salamence wagon is dull and predictable like my uncle. I have no intention to be part of it.

I'm going to cut you right here re: Salamence and copying behaviors/sheeping. I like your reasoning, but he actually does this kind of thing as town.

So... do the Salamence voters care to tell me why he'd hang a lampshade on the fact that this game is going so much over his head that his reads haven't changed? If he was faking it, I'd expect him to at least have changed a read or two between Post 433 and Post 681.

If he were scum, he'd be trying to look like he's making a real effort. The copy-pasted reads list shows Salamence doesn't really care how he comes across, because he doesn't have anything to fear.

Salamence is such a blatantly easy counterwagon it's almost cute. CES and Mina should be ashamed.

It could be playstyle, and he has been going after the ridiculously easy lynchbait Salamence for quite a while, but it feels like an unnecessary turn of phrase.

Salamence-slot is overwhelmed townie. Swing those wagons elsewhere, please.

Step 4: Notice that her reasons for thinking that Salamance is town are poor and that until he replaces out she mostly defends him by arguing that he's an easy lynch as opposed to arguing that he's town, and that after he replaces out she immediately jumps on the "overwhelmed townie" rationale provided my MoS a few posts earlier.

Step 5.

Vote: Tyene Sand

[Zdenek]

I thought about that, Zdenek.

However, it was first Tyene who pointed out and lead the charge against Sapo D2.

Sap scum-slipped, Tyene had to bus.

What I am fairly confident in is that Sala is very unlikely scum with Molla, Minimum, MoI, Plum and Tierce (Zdenek look at Tierces Post 773 and Salas reaction to it in Post 777, it's not partner-interaction and while Tierce 'defended' Sala with little reasoning from memory I did a similar thing, I wasn't happy with either of the D1 wagons :/ so I can understand her play very much and don't think she's scum from it at all. Plus the manner in which she pointed out Sapors 'slip' and their following interaction about it isn't partners, stop tunneling on her dude.)

I disagree and want her dead.

[Zdenek]

Vote: Staeg

[Zdenek]

Minimum, MoI was asking people to hold off on regular voting until the godhand voting was done, I didn't see you unvote then. There was a pile of support for Staeg's lynch, but you didn't unvote or tell people to hold off on voting. Now you're complaining about a lynch happening that you were on?

I hammered because Staeg is pretty likely scum and didn't see a reason to wait to vote.

[Zdenek]

Shinori gets one post to explain himself.

[Zdenek]

I see Staeg just got hammered. Under the circumstances, I will finish reading during the night phase, and post what I have now.

MoS and Feysal... the fact that you apparently had a town read on us doesn't justify your jail. There was 1) no chance whatsoever that we were getting nightkilled on N2 (since quite a few people wanted to lynch us) and 2) no chance that a jailkeep wagon was going to happen on us. What was the purpose of your strategy?

There was no strategy. I had no idea who was likely to gather votes other than Shinori, and I did not want to vote him because I was fairly sure no scum would try to kill him for that precise reason. I would have been fine with any of my town reads being jailkept, and you had risen to strong town at the end of day one, so I picked you. I was not really aware how many people thought the same, or how many did not.

It is also about Shinori that I want to talk about. I don't think his claim adds up. He claimed to be a type of tracker that learns the nature of the action but not its target. That role is called a follower, and I'm sure Faraday should have known that and used the correct role name instead of sort-of-like-tracker-but-not-really. Another thing is that he claimed that his information would implicate someone as scum with bvoigt, or possibly bvoigt as town, and I don't see how his ability would provide links to bvoigt or anyone else. He was asked to explain his thought process, to which he replied simply that he thought his result made Staeg more suspicious. Why? All that ability would have told him is that Staeg investigated someone. Without even knowing who that was, I don't see how Shinori could begin to speculate on scum investigative roles.

In case Staeg is scum and was forced to claim his true role like Regfan theorized, I could easily see Shinori in the other scum team. His story simply does not make any sense.

[Zdenek]

I jumped to conclusions and thought scum role cop along with something I can't quite say cause rules, it seemed like he was following his scum meta to me partially. That and his play and connections/reactions didn't look good to me. So I thought he was scum. I pushed what I thought was scum.

If you are going to lynch me then do so, I've played bad, but I can guarantee I am town. If we want I can out my night results for the past night as well, it doesn't show much but it implicates someone as most likely innocent more than being scum. I'll still be able to live for one more day, not that it will help too much.

I feel like Shinori's probably town, despite the fact that the post below really makes me want him dead.

I misread shadows saying Staeg instead of BVO. I don't know why.

I'm fine with BVO lynch, however if Bvo flips town we look at staeg and shadows because of weird stuff i got in my pm last night.

##Vote: Bvo

So, you have information that potentially clears Bvoigt and implicates Staeg and Shadow somehow and you're just fine lynching Bvoigt in case? If that's not what you mean, what do you mean?

No I think I actually have info that potentially pegs someone as scum along with BVO. It could implicate bvo as town though but it's also something I don't fele at liberty to discuss because it could just be more beneficial to scum than town.

I'll have to go read mockingjaye, but I find that painful, so I'll do it later, and a scumhunter lynch would be okay, but far from my favorite.

Vote: minimum

[Zdenek]

I'm coming around to Kortul scum. It's basically a gut read based on his fairly generic posts.

Why the vote for Minimum?

Mostly her end of day 3 play.

Mockingjaye's posts make me want to vomit and I get nothing of value out them, but I can see how this:

Is this mockingjaye's first post (EDIT: 2nd)? It looks like she was near the hurricane....It looks pretty null to me, I guess. It's not clear why Shinori gets on the scumlist (EDIT: Hyperion got a big section before), but I suppose it doesn't bother me much.

is unnatural - it's not clear, oh it is, it doesn't bother me much.

I don't object to lynching Anxiety, but it seem like a pretty weak lynch if this is why it's being pushed.

No one thinks Minimum is scum anymore?

Preview edit or Kortul: because very few people think that Tyene is scum, so there is no point on leaving my vote on her. It's probably more useful for me to use it to do other things. I think it's pretty clear why minimum is scum. There's been a lot said already. I don't feel the need to repeat it at the moment.

Are you seriously asking me why I find reading mockingjaye painful? I practically regard that as a confession that you haven't tried.

[Zdenek]

What if we greyscale shinori. He gets one more night to do something useful if he's town and if he's not town he dies. Mostly, I just don't want to deal with him after his poor play excuse and this seems like a reasonable solution to me.

[Zdenek]

Oh yes.

Unvote
Vote: Shinori

[Zdenek]

I don't mind waiting for Shinori to be NK'ed.
I would love to know why plumamma thinks Kortul is town.

Vote: MoS

[Zdenek]

Tammy might be scum because of http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4298801 there were nice wagons on Bvoigt and Salamance at the time.

[Zdenek]

Although, my gut on Tammy screams town, so probably I'll ignore that for now.

Although, rereading my gut makes me think that Mockingjaye was town, and I think that the fact that she works as a member of both scum teams is just as attributable to her lack of activity as the possibility that she's scum.

[Zdenek]

So I've read back over day one.

So many people were defending scum at the end of day one, I don't really know what to say about it. Probably it's best to generally forgive them, but keep it in mind.

If we forgive Benmage for defending scum, he comes across as rather townie at the end of day one.

I'm also pretty much convinced that Regfan is scum.

Minimum is probably not a reasonable lynch today.

I see that Kortul has put in a lot of work at various times during the game. That's pretty townie.

MockingJaye's 1274 is bad.

Tammy started off looking strongly town, but that read diminished by the end of the day.

If Feysal is scum, I agree with plumamma that he is Stannis scum. PoE makes Feysal pretty likely scum.

Because of interactions with flipped scum, I don't think that scum hunter is a reasonable lynch today.

BBMolla's "the aegon faction is split up" could be an attempt at in game communication with the other group and his play could easily make him scum.

I really don't understand the town reads on Hascow and Magua could easily be scum.

So let's see:

Anxiety is an acceptable lynch, primarily because of MockingJaye's 1274.

I'd back a Feysal, bbmolla or Magua lynch.

Optimal lynches would be Sands and MoS.

I don't see myself voting outside of those 6 today.

[Zdenek]

Oops, I meant I'm pretty convinced that Regfan is town.

Also, reading Saporient's claim, I suspect that their scum team probably consists of people who are inactive or fairly weak because of the failure to come up with at least a reasonable claim for their question to the mod.

[Zdenek]

MoS do you think that scum would be more inclined to bus on a choose wagon on day one than on a voting wagon that day?

[Zdenek]

bvoigt (9) - Plum's Yo Mamma, greenknight, SnowStorm, Dolorous Edd, Tyene Sand, Pandora, MagnaofIllusion, Seraphim, StefanB

If there's scum on the wagon its Plum or Tierce.

[Zdenek]

Yoo hoo, MoS,

MoS do you think that scum would be more inclined to bus on a choose wagon on day one than on a voting wagon that day?

Also, reading Saporient's claim, I suspect that their scum team probably consists of people who are inactive or fairly weak because of the failure to come up with at least a reasonable claim for their question to the mod.

Self-watcher is something that does straddle the line between active and passive so it doesn't strike me as that unreasonable? Given the flip, it might even have been a more plausible explanation than the real one.

That's not the part of the claim I was thinking of. Recall,

I'm about to go to bed, but it looks like our claim is warranted.

We are

Barbrey Dustin

. Our flavor is that we hate the Starks. We're supporting the Lannisters mainly out of hatred of the Starks. The flavor makes numerous references to the remains of the Starks, the implication being that our enduring hatred is out of touch with reality.

Our only ability is called

Knick-knack paddywack, give a dog a bone Ned Stark 'aint [sic] coming home

. The ability is described as a self-watcher ability. It's a Passive ability, but I didn't notice that it was so labeled explicitly until Shadow pointed it out. If anyone targets us, we will be told who targeted us. If no one targets us, we will receive no result. Both N1 and N2, we received no result.

Well, it's a bit late for it to matter either way, but you've just been caught in a lie. Can you figure out what it is, based solely on information that is in the thread?

My assumption was that the lie is that they get no result when no one visits them, which is contrary to both shinori's and shadow1's results when they aren't roleblocked.

[Zdenek]

My assumption was that the lie is that they get no result when no one visits them, which is contrary to both shinori's and shadow1's results when they aren't roleblocked.

Nope, that seems fine to me given their ability was a passive. The lie was that Edd obviously targeted Sapo Night 2.

That is correct, Tammy.

Okay. My point is rendered irrelevant.

Tammy, would you agree that this is a reasonable summary of your reads?

Minimum (Mina/CES) -town
4nxi3ty - fencesitting
Tyene Sand (Tierce) -town
kortul - no read
Shinori - town
Plum's Yo Mamma (Nacho/Plum) - ??, but irrelevant
Magua - feels good about, but he's lurking
Regfan - feels really good about
Zdenek - feels really good about
Benmage - town
Mastermind of Sin - looks better, null
Feysal - not stannis aligned, not argon aligned, but agrees with GK
Pandora (Shadoweh/Quilford) - town
Scumhunter - town
BBmolla - town
Jal - null look bad

[Zdenek]

Zdenek, Miss Stark doesn't seem to be on your scum list, so I have to ask, where are you going with this interogation? The point about Sapo's lie is probably still true since any competent team would have pointed out how dumb that self-watcher claim was. Really one has to wonder why they thought it was reasonable at all.

The reason that I don't think that the point stands is that the lie they were caught in was on that they couldn't have been accounted for at night. They were somewhat limited about what they could have claimed because they needed a role that could have justified their question to the mod.

Tammy might not be on my scum-list, but she doesn't get a free pass, and forgetting to scum hunt is something that happens to scum. I noticed that she seemed to have a pile of null or town reads. It's something that want to keep track of.

Since I noticed that about Tammy, I decided to do the same thing for everyone. There is no question that some of these reads are stale, but here is what I could glean from people's ISO's:

Spoiler:

For minimum:

2) Lyanna Stark (Tammy) - town
Mockingjaye3) 4nxi3ty - scum
6) Tyene Sand (Tierce) - town
Petyr Baelish7) kortul - town
Hyperion8) Shinori - unclear
10) Plum's Yo Mamma - town?, but irrelevant
hasdgfas Albert B. Rampage12) Magua - null, more likely town than scum.
14) Regfan - town
pappums rat Amrun Seraphim15) Zdenek - no read
18) Benmage - town
19) Mastermind of Sin - null, thinks positively about
21) Feysal - null
22) Pandora (Hydra) - probtown
Starbuck 24) Scumhunter - town
25) BBmolla - not confident that he's town
27) Jal - leaning town


Mockingjaye (not enough to do this with anx, yet)

1) Minimum (Mina/CES) - Scum
2) Lyanna Stark (Tammy) - never mentions
6) Tyene Sand (Tierce) - no read
Petyr Baelish7) kortul - no read
Hyperion8) Shinori - maybe town
10) Plum's Yo Mamma - town,null but irrelevant
hasdgfas Albert B. Rampage12) Magua - scum/null
14) Regfan - town/null
pappums rat Amrun Seraphim15) Zdenek - no read
18) Benmage - no read
19) Mastermind of Sin - scum/null
21) Feysal - Town
22) Pandora (Hydra) - no read
Starbuck 24) Scumhunter - nullish scum
25) BBmolla - no read
27) Jal - no read (Anxiety thinks Jal is scum.)

Tierce:

1) Minimum (Mina/CES) - town
2) Lyanna Stark (Tammy) - town
Mockingjaye3) 4nxi3ty - no read.
Petyr Baelish7) kortul - town
Hyperion8) Shinori - town
10) Plum's Yo Mamma - town?, but irrelevant
hasdgfas Albert B. Rampage12) Magua - town
14) Regfan - town
pappums rat Amrun Seraphim15) Zdenek - scum, lyncher?
18) Benmage - no read
19) Mastermind of Sin - weak scum read
21) Feysal - weak town? weak scum?
22) Pandora (Hydra) - town
Starbuck 24) Scumhunter - starbuck was town, but she suggests that scumhunter is trolling with his Jamie Claim
25) BBmolla - weak town
27) Jal - isn't scum, but perhaps that's weakened

Kortul:

He's made his reads clear. post 2394

Shinori:

1) Minimum (Mina/CES) - scum
2) Lyanna Stark (Tammy) - town
Mockingjaye3) 4nxi3ty - no read
6) Tyene Sand (Tierce) -town
Petyr Baelish7) kortul - no read
10) Plum's Yo Mamma - town
hasdgfas Albert B. Rampage12) Magua - scum
14) Regfan - town
pappums rat Amrun Seraphim15) Zdenek - no read
18) Benmage - town
19) Mastermind of Sin - scum
21) Feysal - town?
22) Pandora (Hydra) - no read
Starbuck 24) Scumhunter - scum
25) BBmolla - no read
27) Jal - no read

Magua:

It's clear.

Regfan:

Clear.

Benmage: It's hard to actually tell because of his willingness to lynch town.

1) Minimum (Mina/CES) - town
2) Lyanna Stark (Tammy) - town
Mockingjaye3) 4nxi3ty - town
6) Tyene Sand (Tierce) - town
Petyr Baelish7) kortul - null feeling better
Hyperion8) Shinori - scum
10) Plum's Yo Mamma - plum
hasdgfas Albert B. Rampage12) Magua - scum?
14) Regfan - town
pappums rat Amrun Seraphim15) Zdenek - scum?
19) Mastermind of Sin - town
21) Feysal - scum
22) Pandora (Hydra) - town
Starbuck 24) Scumhunter - town
25) BBmolla - scum
27) Jal - scum?

MoS:

Clear from his recent posting

Feysal:

1) Minimum (Mina/CES) - town
2) Lyanna Stark (Tammy) - town
Mockingjaye3) 4nxi3ty - town
6) Tyene Sand (Tierce) - leaning town
Petyr Baelish7) kortul - town
Hyperion8) Shinori - scum?
10) Plum's Yo Mamma - probable town
hasdgfas Albert B. Rampage12) Magua - null?
14) Regfan - town
pappums rat Amrun Seraphim15) Zdenek - null?
18) Benmage - leaning town
19) Mastermind of Sin - scum, then feeling better
22) Pandora (Hydra) - town
Starbuck 24) Scumhunter - scum
25) BBmolla- town
27) Jal-null

Pandora:

1) Minimum (Mina/CES) - null
2) Lyanna Stark (Tammy) - town
Mockingjaye3) 4nxi3ty - town
6) Tyene Sand (Tierce) - town
Petyr Baelish7) kortul - town
Hyperion8) Shinori - scum
10) Plum's Yo Mamma - null
hasdgfas Albert B. Rampage12) Magua - null?
14) Regfan - town
pappums rat Amrun Seraphim15) Zdenek - town
18) Benmage - scum
19) Mastermind of Sin - town
21) Feysal - scum
Starbuck 24) Scumhunter - null, scum
25) BBmolla - null
27) Jal - not scum


Starbuck/Scumhunter

No point, just awful


BBMolla:

Pretty clear

Jal:

1) Minimum (Mina/CES) - scum?
2) Lyanna Stark (Tammy) - scum
Mockingjaye3) 4nxi3ty - null, scum?
6) Tyene Sand (Tierce) - scum, not with argon
Petyr Baelish7) kortul -null/scum
Hyperion8) Shinori - town
10) Plum's Yo Mamma - ??
hasdgfas Albert B. Rampage12) Magua - town?
14) Regfan -town
pappums rat Amrun Seraphim15) Zdenek - no read
18) Benmage - scum?
19) Mastermind of Sin - no read
21) Feysal - null/scummy?
22) Pandora (Hydra) -??
Starbuck 24) Scumhunter - ???
25) BBmolla - ??

Some points:

Considering her lack of activity, MockingJaye looks pretty good.

It is hard to actually tell with Benmage because of his stated willingness to lynch town reads.

There was no point to doing this with Starbuck because she appears to have no suspects

I found it hard to get a precise idea of what Jal thought about people because it's not always clear while she's interacting with people.
It's basically useless on the recent replacements

People with a definite lack of scum reads:
Tammy
Minimum
Tierce
Feysal

[Zdenek]

I don't think minimum belongs on your list though as they've expressed a scum read on mockinganx and jalpine.

Although I do think it's worth noting that in each of your people without scum reads, it's people who don't tend to make lists so it's more a playstle preference than it is a lack of reads

Okay, they have a scum read on Jal. That brings them from one to two scum reads. They certainly stay on the list.

Having scum reads is not a play-style thing.

[Zdenek]

I don't mean having reads, but making lists. I'm thinking that there are players like regfan who are really transparent and give you updated reads regularly, and there are those who don't.

What's your point?

Also, I've been thinking about how that godhand happened, mainly because every time I think abut the end of day one I want to lynch benmage for defending scum and really wish that he was godhanded. Anyway, he was the most agressive pusher of plum, which might indicate that he's scum trying to avoid being flipped. Aside from that once w start getting flips from the people those wagons were on, they could be useful. At the moment, not so much I think.

[Zdenek]

Feysal is a strong townread for interactions with flipped scum

What is your opinion of:

I think the multi-scum slip is enough to go off at this stage, see how feysal continues to react.

I think he's voting Feysal and gassing up the escape pod.

I still think MoS is scum. Of the other wagons, I'd be most inclined to switch to Feysal, maybe scumhunter, I would not vote anxiety anymore.

[Zdenek]

What Pandora said. In GvE (and other games) I remember Feysal being a lot more active. But his interactions with the flipped scum so far lead me to believe he's probably town, so I still think he's a bad lynch.

Which interactions make you think that he's not Stannis aligned?

[Zdenek]

Vote: Feysal

[Zdenek]

First I try to put some effort into this game with what little time I have (there's a reason I'm only in one game right now), and immediately you come after me for not putting MORE effort into the game. And then I have to spend the rest of my time explaining to your fucking retarded brain why I'm not doing MORE to scumhunt, when YOU are the exact reason I don't have time to do MORE. So seriously, fuck off and get off your goddamn high horse.

I'm done with you and your bitch ass.

Mod: Replace me

MoS pulled this spazz (albeit over something differrent, I think) and replace out move as scum in Consulmaker III. That game was lost to the crash, but there's some over lap between that game and this one, so someone might be able to remember it better than me.

Timeater, have you been following along the game at all? If not then why did you instantly come in and claim?

Why the hell did you ask him this and feed him a possible response?

no longer comfortable with a timeater lynch.

Why?

I think the only right course of action here is to just lynch the slot (and anyone who thinks this isn't a scum tell for Pine is pretty naïve.)

Do you have an example of this happening with him as scum?

[Zdenek]

First I try to put some effort into this game with what little time I have (there's a reason I'm only in one game right now), and immediately you come after me for not putting MORE effort into the game. And then I have to spend the rest of my time explaining to your fucking retarded brain why I'm not doing MORE to scumhunt, when YOU are the exact reason I don't have time to do MORE. So seriously, fuck off and get off your goddamn high horse.

I'm done with you and your bitch ass.

Mod: Replace me

MoS pulled this spazz (albeit over something differrent, I think) and replace out move as scum in Consulmaker III. That game was lost to the crash, but there's some over lap between that game and this one, so someone might be able to remember it better than me.

Was that the game where he replaced out after fighting with grey ice? He mentioned that one in GvE. I was taking the replace out from the fight as a bit of a town tell, actually.

Yes, that's the game.

And another thing, in GvE, MoS pulled the do nothing until people might lynch me trick and then do something a bit over the top. In that game he decided to argue that after tunneling on each other most of day one that Tammy and I were probably scum buddies. I know it's not the same thing, but it fits a pattern of doing nothing, then doing something controversial.

Meta-wise, I'd have to say that MoS is scum.

I had a leaning scum read on jal, but this is not a reliable scum tell for pine though I will say its odd he replaced in if he wasn't going to have time, and that shoot I forgot to bookmark is a pretty reliable scum tell anyway, but replacing out isn't a scum tell. I've been in three games where pine replaced out and two were town where one was scum.

A sample size of 3 is irrelevant (and 1 out of 3 is just average anyway, so it's not a real sign it's not). Pine dislikes and lurks as scum.

These are not examples.

I was scum with Pine in AFFC, my impression was that he had a great time.

Mastermind of Sin's replace out is either a towntell or a nulltell, but is certainly not a scumtell. I was reading it as a towntell (replace out due to actual anger at being misrepresented). Adjusting slightly after Zdenek saying he did this as scum in Consulmaker III, but I'm still not seeing it as a scumtell -- I'm seeing it as something that MoS does as an emotional response, making it a nulltell.

Have you seen him do it as town?

Continue to have a scumread on this slot. Timeater replacing hasn't really changed anything. Immediate claim in first post just screams of having ISOd his predecessor, but then he denies having done that.

Yep.

Alright, so inspired by Regfan's defense of Feysal I checked Feysal's play in AFFC:

Looking at what's left of AFFC, Feysal's posting rate is something like half of what it was in that game. This already sends off warning bells. Early on he gave a few town-reads, he attacked MoI and voting Magister Ludi for doing nothing. He continued to give town reads - one on the leading wagon and push Ludi and argue with MoI. He attacked Magua and MoI. So he had three scum reads: Ludi (that was early and later he voted him because of his gambit), Magua and MoI, with MoI being the strongest. He also thought that Plum and me were scum. Magua became town to him because of his interactions with MoI. Finally he voted Plum because of someone else's case.

Looking at this, I disagree with Regfan's point #1 about Feysal.

The only reason Timeater might be town is the early VT claim, which is a pretty risky move coming from scum, I still think lynching him is fine.

[Zdenek]

Okay so reviewing Feysal's play here, it doesn't actually look all that different from his play in AFFC. The only thing that stands out is posting rate.

Now I have to go check out a scum game of his.

In Chronotirgger, Feysal's posting rate was even lower than it is here. He starts off being confused by a flash wagon and not really sold on any of the current suspects. He gave out a town read on Tierce. He gave out scum reads on Spyrex, Staeg and Elmo. He switched his vote to Shadow Dancer. Then Drey. Without commenting I think on Shadowdancer/his replacement. He calls Spyrex scum again. He votes Elmo. I think without mentioning Spyrex. The rest of the game seemed to be mostly about setup spec/role interactions.

One difference is that it seems like he only posted when he was caught up, rather than while he was trying to catch up. He also didn't have any solid suspects during the game. On the other hand I believe that was the main reason that Spyrex was suspicious of him, and it's an easy thing to correct for (and, for instance, ending up being overly focussed on one person).

All this considered, I don't think that the meta on Feysal is relevant to his alignment.

So the bottom line is that he's playing like scum, so we should lynch him.

[Zdenek]

@Zdenek - this is how your last post reads to me;

I did research on Feysal's scum meta.
It doesn't match his play here.
I would like to lynch him here.
Therefore I'll say the meta doesn't matter because he could have changed it.

Try:
I did research on Feysal's town and scum meta.

There's a difference, namely a lack of strong reads when he plays as scum that he got heat for as scum.

It's something he'll probably want to deal with by making sure that he has strong reads when he plays as scum.

In this game he's been strongly focussed on a single player. This matches more with his town play than with his scum play, but it could be him over-compensating for something he was caught for in a previous game.

So his meta doesn't matter.

[Zdenek]

I did research on Feysal's scum meta.
It doesn't match his play here.
I would like to lynch him here.
Therefore I'll say the meta doesn't matter because he could have changed it.

Explain what you think is the scum motivation behind this.

[Zdenek]

Pushing through the Feysal lynch - derp.

I'm calling him obv. town as of now - you may react accordingly.

Why is wanting to push through the Feysal lynch scummy?

[Zdenek]

Fair enough.

Vote: Feysal

Let's speed lynch him too, just for yucks.

@Zdenek - this is how your last post reads to me;

I did research on Feysal's scum meta.
It doesn't match his play here.
I would like to lynch him here.
Therefore I'll say the meta doesn't matter because he could have changed it.

Unvote: Feysal
Vote: Zdenek

Pushing through the Feysal lynch - derp.

I'm calling him obv. town as of now - you may react accordingly.

I see him as obv. town - that seems self explanatory at that stage.
You are pushing the wagon.
You are doing so with questionable logic.
QED

You voted Feysal, said nothing about him, attacked me when I tried to figure out if the meta arguments regarding Feysal made sense or not, said that now Feysal is obv. town, and conclude by acting as though you saw him as obv. town before I tried to work out if the meta arguments made sense.

Vote Thor

[Zdenek]

If you want to see faulty logic check out Thor's:

He disagrees with my interpretation of Feysal's meta, I guess, because he doesn't argue that I'm wrong. The post where he votes me is essentially just rhetoric. He explains that he thinks that I'm scum for trying to push the Feysal lynch, and that now, Feysal is obv. town. Then he says that he thought Feysal was obv. town, a lie, and that he sees me as scum trying to push that lynch through with questionable logic. Exactly what he thought is questionable is completely unclear and if it's the meta business, then I'd say that Thor is an idiot if he thinks people as scum don't try to correct their meta after they're caught for something.

[Zdenek]

The only thing that makes sense is that Thor is reaction testing of some sort.

No. He's scum. Vote him.

What did you think 2704 was?

Bullshit rhetoric.

[Zdenek]

But, in addition to that, that I also was hiding my reasons for thinking you were scummy...even though I stated them when I voted?

What is this nonsense?

Here's you:

@Zdenek - this is how your last post reads to me;

I did research on Feysal's scum meta.
It doesn't match his play here.
I would like to lynch him here.
Therefore I'll say the meta doesn't matter because he could have changed it.

Unvote: Feysal
Vote: Zdenek

Pushing through the Feysal lynch - derp.

I'm calling him obv. town as of now - you may react accordingly.

I see him as obv. town - that seems self explanatory at that stage.
You are pushing the wagon.
You are doing so with questionable logic.
QED

[Zdenek]

The first post is a blatant misrepresentation of why I think Feysal's the meta arguments about Feysal aren't strong. Namely the fact that he was caught as scum for main thing that I see as a difference, not having strong suspects, it's an easy thing to account for, and in attempting to account for it, he could have over done his attack on the Timeater slot. Are you trying to argue that people don't try to adjust their scum play when they're caught for something?

In the second post you appear to have decided that Feysal is obv. town because I've been pushing his lynch.

In the third post you act as though you thought Feysal was obv. town before and that you're read on him is one of the reasons that you think I am scummy.

It's bullshit.

[Zdenek]

Yeah, but you actually say you see this as in line with his town meta.
And then kept pushing him with that as the excuse.
After looking at one scum game.
It all feels quite fake and the logic doesn't follow through.

Yes. It does. Regfan fan made a meta defense of Feysal. I decided to check to see if it held water. I don't think that Regfan's defense does. I found another difference, and decided that it didn't matter.

Actually I did it from your reaction to his meta, but, yes, my belief of your alignment colored my belief of his and vice versa. It's very Catch-22

Scum posting.

Why exactly were people voting Jal

Whats the case

Well Thor is obviously scum.

Jal attacked a lot of people, but didn't seem to maintain too many clear scum reads at least near the end of her time in the thread, which makes it hard for me to get a handle on her. She continued to attack both Snowstorm and D. Edd after they were essentially cleared, which reads to me as unnatural and possibly contrived, but not obviously scummy.

[Zdenek]

So yeah, reading the thread, I'm laughing my ass off at Thor defending himself by asking people to explain how he's scum in any way. It's scum complaining about being caught for what he thinks is the wrong reason (except, it's not the wrong reason.).

Jal obv. town is something I totally don't see considering her pushes on almost conf. town, after they were almost conf. town.

To regfan, I've explained my town read on MockingJaye. Yes, there's a serious lack of posting from her, but when she showed up she looked okay. It's true that she fits with both scum teams, but for me the game is not at the point where I'm willing to lynch a slot that's not a scum read because of PoE. That said, Anxiety's push against Jal when he replaced in, and now backing off of Thor is a problem for me, but only if one of them flips scum, and I'd rather investigate that possibility by lynching Thor

Just to clear this shit about what I was saying about Feysal's meta up. I simply don't think that his meta is going to get us very far in trying to read him. He's obviously a player who pays attention to his own meta, and I strongly suspect he's sort of player who will try to adjust his play. I think that the case for him being scum is fine and that the defense of him being town based on his meta is weak. He's never been my first choice, but it's compromise time, so I'm happy to vote there.

[Zdenek]

You also still haven't really said how I'm scum other than that I'm "ridiculous" so, yeah, I'm whining about it - is that why I'm scum now, or was there previous reasoning?

Thor is playing dumb.

I've been clear.

[Zdenek]

You also still haven't really said how I'm scum other than that I'm "ridiculous" so, yeah, I'm whining about it - is that why I'm scum now, or was there previous reasoning?

Thor is playing dumb.

I've been clear.

[Zdenek]

Jal obv. town is something I totally don't see considering her pushes on almost conf. town, after they were almost conf. town.

Examples of this?

Jal 1044 - Snowstorm after the mason claim.
Jal 2118 - D. Edd after he'd just dueled scum.

[Zdenek]

You've also misrepresented my argument for why I think that the meta arguments about Feysal aren't strong.

Thor is playing dumb.

I've been clear.

This is your stated case thus far;

You voted Feysal, said nothing about him, attacked me when I tried to figure out if the meta arguments regarding Feysal made sense or not, said that now Feysal is obv. town,

and conclude by acting as though you saw him as obv. town before I tried to work out if the meta arguments made sense

.

I don't understand how that makes me scum even if it was true, and it has bits that aren't (highlighted in red).

Actually I did it from your reaction to his meta, but, yes, my belief of your alignment colored my belief of his and vice versa. It's very Catch-22

[Zdenek]

zdenek can you share your reads on everyone else on the thor wagon?

I think Anxiety is probably town, but that's mostly PoE.

Minimum could easily be scum.

Tyene was my strongest scum read, but that read's been weakened by Shinori not tracking her anywhere yesterday and the fact that all of the flips so far have been goons. Also almost everyone else calling her obv. town until recently has caused me to shelve that.

Tammy was a very strong read early in the game, but that's weakened over time, but I'd still say that she's town.

[Zdenek]

That quote strengthens what I'm saying and doesn't suggest that I retroactively made the read backwards in time. It specifically has me even saying when you presented that case was when my opinion shifted - so...

Then explain how you came to your reads, because that ...vice versa ... catch-22" business in your post make no sense to me.

[Zdenek]

That quote strengthens what I'm saying and doesn't suggest that I retroactively made the read backwards in time. It specifically has me even saying when you presented that case was when my opinion shifted - so...

Then explain how you came to your reads, because that ...vice versa ... catch-22" business in your post make no sense to me.

I said that your take of his meta made him look town.

You don't think that after being caught for something as scum, Feysal would try to correct for that?'

I also noted that seeing your take of his meta made you look scum.

As far as I can tell, that's because of a misrepresentation on your part of what I said.
[quote="Thor"}
Considering your push both actions compounded on each other - making a Catch-22 strengthening cycle as well.
[/quote]
This is multiball, so that's bullshit.

Seemed pretty clear what I meant to me - and I can't figure out where you think I was saying I had the read *earlier* than that, wanna clarify that?

Because you said:

I see him as obv. town - that seems self explanatory at that stage.
You are pushing the wagon.
You are doing so with questionable logic.
QED

which implies in part that you think he is town, and that you think I am scum for pushing a wagon on town. The argument that he'd be cleared as town because someone scummy is pushing the wagon is wrong because this is multiball. Implying that you needed to have a town read on him before hand.

[Zdenek]

bit of a non sequitur here

Does everyone agree that we are dealing with 4 man scumteams, where currently the Stannis faction has 3 players left and the Aegon faction has 2 players left?

I think that's a good guess, but in ASOS there was a larger scum team of, I think, 5 and a small one of 2, so I wouldn't necessarily bet on them being symmetric.

[Zdenek]

1. Have uneven scumteams.

He modded ASOS, so this is wrong.

[Zdenek]

Well maybe he wouldn't anymore.

[Zdenek]

You have examples he's done this in the past?

It is my belief that most scum are caught by derp and luck rather than legit tells, I see players occasionally adjust but changing play meta is a difficult task and would usually require you to aim to do it first in town games to establish it as 'meta' in any case. So, if he is changing, the real question is 'is he changing to match his already existing town meta' and if we accept that his town meta and scum meta are now identical...it's still pretty scummy to cite meta as worth anything when trying to lynch him.

I don't need examples of him adjusting his play in the past to think that he would do it now, because it makes sense for him to try to do adjust his play by making sure to have a solid suspect because it's something that he just got caught as scum for failing to do.

The rest of your post is complete bullshit and doesn't apply to what I've been saying because guess what, I'm not citing meta as being worth anything when it comes to reading Feysal, in fact my whole point has been that it isn't.

You seem to have more issue with my town read than with my scumread - which makes your vote shift less sensible, and this also proves no misrep on my part. It does prove that you think my logic is bad, I suppose, but that is meaningless to what you're saying it means.

I think that your town read on Feysal is absolutely bullshit.

The misrep is here:

@Zdenek - this is how your last post reads to me;

I did research on Feysal's scum meta.
It doesn't match his play here.
I would like to lynch him here.
Therefore I'll say the meta doesn't matter because he could have changed it.

The first post is a blatant misrepresentation of why I think Feysal's the meta arguments about Feysal aren't strong. Namely the fact that he was caught as scum for main thing that I see as a difference, not having strong suspects, it's an easy thing to account for, and in attempting to account for it, he could have over done his attack on the Timeater slot.

How does that imply I needed a townread on him beforehand?
How does that logic work when i clearly said I just got the town read right then?
Again, as far as I can tell you're proving that what I've said happened did happen and then acting like it somehow...doesn't?
Oh, it's because you *think* I must have done it beforehand and ignored when I said I didn't, is *that* what is making me scummy? That would make as much sense as I think this case does.

If I'm wrong, please clarify where and how, thanks!

It doesn't make any sense for you to gain a town read on him because I am attacking him because this is multiball. So either you had one on him to begin with or your reasons for having one are garbage.

I do not believe that you are this stupid, so my only conclusion is that you are scum pushing nonsensical bullshit.

Thor is obviously scum.

[Zdenek]

Had some time during lunch to start reading through the pages, got some questions.

@Zdenek

- have you seen any comments/discussions/etc during or after ChronoTrigger, that the absence of solid suspects "was the main reason that Spyrex was suspicious of" Feysal? Ie is it your own opinion, or there is anything that indicates that Feysal also thought it was the reason for his failure as a scum? And another question, not related - what is your opinion on motivation behind Thor665 attack on you?

It my opinion based on quotes like this from Feysal's ISO:

The one that annoys me most is SpyreX, who called me suspicious for not having strong reads

and the fact that in reading his ISO, it's pretty clear that he had no strong suspects.

I have no idea how Feysal thinks this fact impacted the game.

I think Thor is attacking me for reasons along the lines of what Magua had to say:

Zdenek: God, I loved playing against him in War in Heaven III when I was scum and he was town, and he managed to just rub everybody the wrong way, and I see him doing it here. I do skip most of his posts, though, because my limit for quote-striping is about on par with a snail's limit for salt, but he's still town.

I see myself as being a pretty safe player to build a wagon on (at least in most games), and I think that Thor, being familiar with this from Mirror Mafia, was trying it here. That said he could very well be scum trying to deflect a wagon off of a buddy or just trying to get into the game by pushing on the first thing that catches his eye after replacing in.

All that said, Feysal is still the better lynch today.

Vote Feysal]/b]

[Zdenek]

Forgot to paste in:

But at least now I know what the case is, it's "Player X is too good to neener-neener-neener"

That's not the whole case.

@Zdenek - what is this "better" Thor you're familiar with...is it scum Thor?

I'm thinking of the Thor with the Best IC award and your join date, whose reading comprehension should be better than what you're displaying here. You've attacked me for bs reasons, had that pointed out to you, and persisted attacking me for those same reasons.

Oh wait, this gets funnier. Looks like in Storm of Swords Thor *was* town...with scum Zdenek, let's look at some interplay;

"Thor has not answered my questions about the "logic loops" that he's claimed that I've made, and yesterday he said that he thought I was town and voted me in hopes of preventing a Feysal lynch. "
Thor changes scum and town reads quickly and without explanation. Scummy Zdenek hops on this.

"[Thor] say

meh to someone who thinks that I am scum, which appears to agree with your feelings, and then you vote for me, providing no reason, when yesterday you thought I was town?"
Again, Thor with sudden reverse reads - look how scummy Thor is.

He also kept demanding that I explain how I saw holes in his logic.

That is, again, SCUM Zdenek responding to TOWN Thor.
Any similarities?
Any evidence of Zdenek expecting me to be "better"?

Knock my socks off everyone.

This is fucking ridiculous.

Me thinking that changing reads randomly is scummy, is not dependent on my meta.

I am not even arguing here that you need to explain holes in logic, I am saying that you are absolutely wrong.

Also, notice the cognitive dissonance:

Yeah, but you actually say you see this as in line with his town meta.
And then kept pushing him with that as the excuse.
After looking at one scum game.
It all feels quite fake and the logic doesn't follow through.

He criticizes me for just looking at one scum game, but when he wants to use meta, he only looks at one of mine.

Had some time during lunch to start reading through the pages, got some questions.

@Zdenek

- have you seen any comments/discussions/etc during or after ChronoTrigger, that the absence of solid suspects "was the main reason that Spyrex was suspicious of" Feysal? Ie is it your own opinion, or there is anything that indicates that Feysal also thought it was the reason for his failure as a scum? And another question, not related - what is your opinion on motivation behind Thor665 attack on you?

It my opinion based on quotes like this from Feysal's ISO:

The one that annoys me most is SpyreX, who called me suspicious for not having strong reads

and the fact that in reading his ISO, it's pretty clear that he had no strong suspects.

I have no idea how Feysal thinks this fact impacted the game.

I think Thor is attacking me for reasons along the lines of what Magua had to say:

Zdenek: God, I loved playing against him in War in Heaven III when I was scum and he was town, and he managed to just rub everybody the wrong way, and I see him doing it here. I do skip most of his posts, though, because my limit for quote-striping is about on par with a snail's limit for salt, but he's still town.

I see myself as being a pretty safe player to build a wagon on (at least in most games), and I think that Thor, being familiar with this from Mirror Mafia, was trying it here. That said he could very well be scum trying to deflect a wagon off of a buddy or just trying to get into the game by pushing on the first thing that catches his eye after replacing in.

[Zdenek]

Vote: Feysal

[Zdenek]

Tyene's stances on Feysal day one are clearly explained.

I agree with Dolorous, to an extent. This is a suicide mission, so we have no way of forcing the assassin to kill who we want. Therefore the ultimate decision lies with the vig, but in the meantime we should of course offer our input. What does it matter anyway how we dispose of suspect players? From the scumhunting point of view, none. Everything we say will influence the choice made by whoever we eventually send, and right or wrong,

what we say will be used to determine where our own loyalties lie.

What is suspect about this multiball thing (by all means, pappums--go read a few Feysal posts elsewhere) is the offhanded way Feysal addressed it, as anyone who has read or played with him will realize. Feysal has a tendency to wax prose over every single point that is not an established fact, and here there was an 'assumption' that he simply took and ran with without developing it. It feels awkward, out of place--as if it is already fact for him because he knows his scumteam is too small to be alone.

And if, by chance, he is not a traitorous servant of the enemy, this is most certainly a man I trust with killing that bastard on the Wall.

If you want to

subvert

my meta, you will have to try harder than this.

The boldface is mine.

It's Feysal dropping traitor-tells, and Tyene making it clear she's looking for a traitor.

This is happening.

Vote: Tyene Sand

[Zdenek]

If Tyene flips Stannis, we auto-lynch Regfan.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek, go re-read Tierce-RedFF/DCL interactions. They're not partners. Pretty sure she's town.

You're going to have to point them out to me because what I care about is Tierce chastising people for being on vanity wagons and suggesting that she'd prefer to choose someone who she trusted with a kill, and then as a lynch wagon was building on DCL, she decided to start a vanity choose wagon on him.

I found another person with an investigative role if that matters at all.

I can out the name if we want.

Anywho I'm off to work Be back in a few hours.

Can you say what the investigative role is or is that all you know?

[Zdenek]

I can totally see the scum logic in bussing a buddy to pick up an extra kill and town cred, and it even makes more sense if you think that you have a traitor you can recruit.

[Zdenek]

I can totally see the scum logic in bussing a buddy to pick up an extra kill and town cred, and it even makes more sense if you think that you have a traitor you can recruit.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek, you do realize Tierce knows Feysal's no good at scum, right? Signalling to him or counting on him for long-term success seems imprudent.

What I see is her traitor hunting and her read on Feysal developing unnaturally.

To recap:
She thinks he's scum for the multiball slip/ not explaining his assumption that the game is multiball.
She makes the "traitorous" comment, Feysal makes the subvert comment in his next post (post 224).
Tyene lays off Feysal, and unchooses him.
Tyene accuses Feysal of twisting her words, and later chooses Feysal again.
All of this points to her having a scum read on Feysal.
She unchooses Feysal and chooses MoS after MoS posted a shitty case against her.
She starts to back away from her scum read on Feysal, saying that it was due to her thinking that he had meta on her, which perhaps he didn't have, which is a ridiculous reason to back off of a scum read because she's essentially relying on a scumread's word about whatever meta research he's done.
After that she basically fence-sits on Feysal.

[Zdenek]

V/LA until Tuesday

[Zdenek]

Anxiety, first of all, going from thinking that you are an acceptable lynch to being unwilling to vote for you is hardly a huge change in opinion. Secondly, it had nothing to do with you thinking that I am town. The fact that you are suggesting that it is means that you haven't actually read my posts, where I clearly state that MockingJaye actually looks pretty good when it comes to having clearly stated suspicions.

I have no idea how bbmolla's claim clears him. He could easily be aegon scum, making sure that the other groups knows they are separated, and his soft claim of being important and not wanting to be nightkilled are not particularly townie either. I would not vote him today because there are several better lynches, but there's no way I'd write him off as town.

Second, unless we have some fourth party ("Elsewhere, Brienne of Tarth looked for Catelyn Stark"), we are missing only one night kill (night 1), and i believe the missing kill belongs to Aegons, therefore Stannis didn't recruit Feysal (i asked are there any other ways to recruit traitors, but nobody answered). Actually, Aegons know better, whether they missed at night 1 - if they didn't (shoot mason??), then they will figure out that Feysal was recruited and kill Tierce.

Why do you think that the missing kill belongs to the Aegon faction?

As far as the setup speculation goes, 3+1, 2+2, whatever, don't seem all that reasonable in a game this size. Splitting them up to weaken them seems somewhat unreasonable. With the groups split up and counting traitors, I don't think that 5 people scum teams are unreasonable. Asos was a scum group of 5, a scum group of 2 and a lyncher with 25 total, so in this game, two scum groups of 4 makes sense, but I'm not sure that keeps making sense if the groups are split up.

why did you think there was a connection between tyene and regfan?

He's defending her. He's basically conf. town though, so I don't care anymore.

Feysal - lol. Hey Feysal, who are you a Neighborizer to, little Freak?

Jeyne Poole.

For better or worse, I'm name claiming now. I'm Jeyne Poole, and this is false.

We've had no flipped protective roles and there could be one, so I'd prefer to not mass-claim.

Thor can still die.

Anyway, obviously Tierce isn't getting lynched today. So on to option two,

Unvote
Vote AVox

[Zdenek]

Jiminy Jesus H. Christ, I can't believe you nameclaimed in response to Feysal. What. The. Fuck.

Better to get it out of the way now rather than later.

[Zdenek]

I like Kortul's theory that the missing kill N1 was the Aegon factions.

One thing we should be careful about is that I believe there were Name-cop Godfather's in ACoK, so name-cop investigations aren't auto-clears, but I think that if name copping is restricted to the joat, then it is very likely there aren't any of those in this game.

I have no idea how bbmolla's claim clears him. He could easily be aegon scum, making sure that the other groups knows they are separated, and his soft claim of being important and not wanting to be nightkilled are not particularly townie either. I would not vote him today because there are several better lynches, but there's no way I'd write him off as town.

You think he's scum who softclaimed a PR and that he was important as a trick to outwit the other scumteam somehow?
I don't get how that works.

BBMolla's actions don't make sense as scum though unless you think he's scum from [whichever team it was he claimed knowledge of] and he's betting the other team doesn't kill him because they want to leave him alive to help hunt down [whichever team he's giving info on].

So basically he's scum banking that the other scum team won't have enough paranoia to shoot him at some point?
Meh.

Should he be?

Enough people think he's, at the very least, confirmed [not the scumteam he reported on] which means he's a high priority shot for [other team unless they're dumb]. I don't see enough interest in lynching him to really think they expect him to be lynched, and I don't predict it will happen anytime soon - so really the most exciting thing to do is try to look at the kills and figure why they were worth more than killing BBMolla (and gauging by the quality of his play otherwise - it's not hard to guess) but he's really not a good lynch at least until we've wiped out the scum team he's clearly not a part of.

Lawlz.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zdenek

More lawlz.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: AV

First a shitty Minimum vote that you backtracked from and now this?

Is this the post you were referring to with regards to MockingJaye?

It was 2470.

why AVox instead of Thor, he had more support at the time?

I think MoS was scummier and AVox has done nothing to change that opinion.

see no reason to fight an AV lynch, but:

Anxiety is an acceptable lynch, primarily because of MockingJaye's 1274.

Secondly, it had nothing to do with you thinking that I am town. The fact that you are suggesting that it is means that you haven't actually read my posts, where I clearly state that MockingJaye actually looks pretty good when it comes to having clearly stated suspicions.

his original reason for being okay with my lynch was mjaye posted something scummy yet now he is saying he changed his mind because mjaye's posting looked good. It doesn't add up. If I die tonight, hopefully someone will follow up on this tommorow.

Holy fuck. I don't have to think that everything that comes out of a players mouth is townie to have an overall town read on the slot.

[Zdenek]

The first is Thor saying that he doesn't understand how BBMolla could be scum. The next two are him explaining how he could be.

[Zdenek]

Bvoigt is scum. Investigation returned

no active role

.

Then why are you not voting him? o.O

Also, what result would you get if you were roleblocked?

Proceed with the AVox lynch.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek, I think you've misunderstood the context of Thors posts. All of them are him saying that he doesn't think Molla is a good lynch.

No, that isn't what he's saying in all of them, and that is exactly my point.

Briefly, I say, BBMolla's claim doesn't clear him, but that I wouldn't want to lynch him today because there are better lynches. Thor says that he doesn't get how that works. He's disagreeing with me. In the other two posts to some extent, it looks like he's agreeing with me, that BBMolla's not clear, but that he's not a good lynch.

He attacked me just for the sake of attacking me and over something that it seems he agrees with.

so you thought I was an acceptable lynch depite having an overall townread on my slot

The development of my read on your slot should be incredibly clear if you were actually reading my posts. Here you go:

Leaning Town:
...
Mockingjaye

I don't object to lynching Anxiety, but it seem like a pretty weak lynch if this is why it's being pushed.

Although, rereading my gut makes me think that Mockingjaye was town, and I think that the fact that she works as a member of both scum teams is just as attributable to her lack of activity as the possibility that she's scum.

MockingJaye's 1274 is bad.

Anxiety is an acceptable lynch, primarily because of MockingJaye's 1274.

Anxiety is an acceptable lynch, primarily because of MockingJaye's 1274.

From the post where I evaluated people based on how they maintained suspects:

Considering her lack of activity, MockingJaye looks pretty good.

I would not vote anxiety anymore.

To regfan, I've explained my town read on MockingJaye. Yes, there's a serious lack of posting from her, but when she showed up she looked okay. It's true that she fits with both scum teams, but for me the game is not at the point where I'm willing to lynch a slot that's not a scum read because of PoE. That said, Anxiety's push against Jal when he replaced in, and now backing off of Thor is a problem for me, but only if one of them flips scum, and I'd rather investigate that possibility by lynching Thor

Moreover, the post where you said that you were leaning town on me was 2523, and the post where I decided that your slot was 2470, so your initial point against me, that I changed my read in response to you stating yours is garbage too.

Zdenek, those quotes that you grabbed if anything point towards the claim being legitimate, it makes it look like MoS didn't understand his role and thought it might have been similar to a roleblocker and thus wanted to know if Shadow1s result could have been wrong due to his N1 action. But in truth it doesn't roleblock at all.

No, Regfan. We aren't not lynching obv scum AVox because maybe MoS didn't understand his role, when it far more likely that AVox just claimed something that he thought would make sense, but doesn't considering MoS's comment following Shadow's report.

[Zdenek]

The attacks on me are essentially unfounded nonsense. Anx's my "read changes are agenda based" is too vague for me to respond to it, and I have no idea what 'slip ups' Pandora is talking about.

Minimum, could you say from where you're getting your scum-meta on Pine?

It's true that AVox doesn't fit well as Aegon, still don't see how he's not Stannis and I totally think that MoS would want to setup a solid claim quickly.

As far as the other wagons on Thor and Timeater go, I'm pretty happy with both of them, so that's all good.

[Zdenek]

As far as the other wagons on Thor and Timeater go, I'm pretty happy with both of them, so that's all good.

Says the guy voting AV while the wagon flakes out from under him and he doesn't address the claim.

But he's town and Thor is derp - carry on!

Holy fuck die.

Unvote
Vote: Thor

[Zdenek]

don't want a thor or tim lynch at this point.

As far as the other wagons on Thor and Timeater go, I'm pretty happy with both of them, so that's all good.

Says the guy voting AV while the wagon flakes out from under him and he doesn't address the claim.

But he's town and Thor is derp - carry on!

Holy fuck die.

Unvote
Vote: Thor

what was scummy about that post from thor? Not seeing anything that would cause a 'holy fuck die' reaction.

I've commented twice on AVox's claim. Thor is ignoring that and pushing my lynch for what seems to me like no reason at all.

[Zdenek]

Your two comments are 'lynch him' and 'claim was probably crumbed by MoS for faking later'
You don't explain why you think MoS would do that,

It's obvious.

nor do you attempt to justify how the claim looks false when it actually doesn't.

Yes, he almost certainly did use rolestop on Shadow. I don't think that's particularly relevant to him being not Stannis.

You also are not actually addressing all the people who are unvoting *because* of the claim,

Yes, I have.

and, indeed, cheerlead other wagons from the sidelines all while still voting AV until I called you on it and then you quickly moved.
::shrug::

I stand by my stance.

There's little chance of AVox being lynched today. You and Timeater are both scum reads too. Frankly, I don't care all that much which of scum reads gets lynched, it looks like it will be Timeater, but it's probably more productive to vote you at the moment.

[Zdenek]

Of course, I've what I think of your slot.

I was bothered like many by Starbuck's early play, but her later play plus this means that she almost for sure not aligned with RedFF/DCX.

You seem to be one of the few people, if not the only person, to suspect Starbuck. What makes shooting her a better idea than shooting someone who you have a weaker scumread on, but also is more of a consensus choice as scum?

At this moment, Feysal was a potential choice for being chosen, and if bvoigt flips scum, Starbuck is a good guess for a partner.

bvoigt defended Starbuck pretty aggressively, and Starbuck had nothing to say about bvoigt, so I would be happy to lynch Scumhunter sometime.

There was no point to doing this with Starbuck because she appears to have no suspects

[Zdenek]

the case on zdenek as i see it:

>want him to explain his read of me and contradict his autolynch regfan statement
>no response

NOPE!

I explain my read on you in Post 3292.
I explain my issue with Tierce and Regfan here:

why did you think there was a connection between tyene and regfan?

He's defending her. He's basically conf. town though, so I don't care anymore.

>pull up example of why i want him to explain (his change of read after i call him leaning town) plus a vote
>first point of why i am wrong is that it wasn't a huge change?
second point is that it had nothing to do with me all about mockingjaye looking town

The reason that I decided that I would no longer lynch you was given before you called me leaning town.

>i pointed out that his original reason for wanting my lynch was that mjaye did something scummy and it didn't make sense with reasoning that she looked town
>he explains that not everything that a player says has to be town to have an overall townread

I have no idea what your point is. I can be wrong, and if I don't have a solid read on someone, from whom I can see some scummy things, I am not going to oppose their lynch.

how he describes his mjaye read as overall town directly conflicts with him being okay with my lynch earlier.

No it doesn't. Being okay with you being lynched and actively wanting you dead are different things.

he then tries to go back and go 'look. see. my read developed and changed throughout the day' but that doesn't change how he described his read.

i am wondering if his constant need to stick to mjaye being the reason for his switch is just him avoiding that i did something to change his mind.

and i think some of thor's and tim's points against zdenek are valid as well.

SINCE THE REASON THAT I CHANGED MY READ WAS GIVEN BEFORE YOU STATED THAT I WAS LEANING TOWN FOR YOU, THIS IS BULLSHIT.

I don't think that a single reasonable point has actually been raised against me.

[Zdenek]

the case on zdenek as i see it:

>want him to explain his read of me and contradict his autolynch regfan statement
>no response

NOPE!

I explain my read on you in Post 3292.
I explain my issue with Tierce and Regfan here:

why did you think there was a connection between tyene and regfan?

He's defending her. He's basically conf. town though, so I don't care anymore.

>pull up example of why i want him to explain (his change of read after i call him leaning town) plus a vote
>first point of why i am wrong is that it wasn't a huge change?
second point is that it had nothing to do with me all about mockingjaye looking town

The reason that I decided that I would no longer lynch you was given before you called me leaning town.

>i pointed out that his original reason for wanting my lynch was that mjaye did something scummy and it didn't make sense with reasoning that she looked town
>he explains that not everything that a player says has to be town to have an overall townread

I have no idea what your point is. I can be wrong, and if I don't have a solid read on someone, from whom I can see some scummy things, I am not going to oppose their lynch.

how he describes his mjaye read as overall town directly conflicts with him being okay with my lynch earlier.

No it doesn't. Being okay with you being lynched and actively wanting you dead are different things.

he then tries to go back and go 'look. see. my read developed and changed throughout the day' but that doesn't change how he described his read.

i am wondering if his constant need to stick to mjaye being the reason for his switch is just him avoiding that i did something to change his mind.

and i think some of thor's and tim's points against zdenek are valid as well.

SINCE THE REASON THAT I CHANGED MY READ WAS GIVEN BEFORE YOU STATED THAT I WAS LEANING TOWN FOR YOU, THIS IS BULLSHIT.

I don't think that a single reasonable point has actually been raised against me.

[Zdenek]

Don't understand Zdenek position. @Zdenek, why and how "it's probably more productive to vote at the moment"?

Timeater was V/LA / not posting in the thread.

[Zdenek]

I don't think that a single reasonable point has actually been raised against me.

FYI this is insanity and patently untrue.

no example?

[Zdenek]

Can someone explain to me why Regfan is conftown?

name cop result

[Zdenek]

I think that every point that's been raised against me is stupid or false.

[Zdenek]

Just because you believe it doesn't make it true. I feel my points against you are solid and true and that they haven't been defeated and that your case on me is silly and false and has - derpy-doo.

DIAF.

You look obvscum because it's awkward as hell to make your first post about how you're worried about people screwing up a deadline that's 2 weeks away, that's why no one bothered to explain their vote.

No vote on obv. scum ICEninja, but he would have been at l-1 so okay.

Thor's points against.me.

@Zdenek - this is how your last post reads to me;

I did research on Feysal's scum meta.
It doesn't match his play here.
I would like to lynch him here.
Therefore I'll say the meta doesn't matter because he could have changed it.

Unvote: Feysal
Vote: Zdenek

First of all, this was all bullshit, and my analysis of Feysal was awesome and exactly right.

Your meta points against me are irrelevant. I've not asked you to explain your logic, I've told you that you are wrong, and even if I had asked you to explain your logic that is not alignment relevant.

I didn't vote tor you at the start of the day because you are not my number one scum read.

Your attack of me over my stance on BBMolla was BS because it turned out that you essentially agreed with me.

Your attack of me over not addressing AV's claim was garbage because I had.

I think that's everything.

[Zdenek]

I think that every point that's been raised against me is stupid or false.

Honestly this feels like a rather constructed thing to say. Its so over the top and blantatly arrogant it feels like it was made with the purpose of cementing the concept of a hard-headed character. It doesn't feel rooted in reality. Is Zdenek that disconnected? I say no. Speaking from personal experience, this is just the sort of thing I'd say as mafia.

Hey scum, if that wasn't just bullshit rhetoric you would have given an example.

[Zdenek]

1. Your analysis was based on a misrepresentation of what I was saying, and I was right about Feysal, so standing behind this is just bizarre.

2. I said that I don't think that bbmolla's claim clears him and that there are much better lynches. Are you saying that you disagree?

3. You have literally never accused me of having an akward approach until now, and that is stupid accusation anyway. What are you talking about? If it's about the meta points, I am saying that your argument is wrong because I am not asking you to explain your arguments, and on top of that, your use of meta is alignment irrelevant. If it's about somethings else you're going to need to clarify.

4. What hypocrisy are you talking about and yeah, I'm pretty happy voting for anyone I think is scum at this point, which isn't scummy at all.

[Zdenek]

>Give analysis on one of zde's posts
>He uses the fallacious logic of saying that because I did not give a specific example of a point raised against him in a prior post the analysis I just raised is invalid.

Also: cherrypicking

Cherrypicking? LOL. We are in the middle of a discussion, how is the cherrypicking?

As for the rest, you seems to think that there are reasonable points that have been raised against me. I've already suggested that you should give an example. I don't think that there are any. As for your previous comment, it is totally invalid.

I think that every point that's been raised against me is stupid or false.

Honestly this feels like a rather constructed thing to say. Its so over the top and blantatly arrogant it feels like it was made with the purpose of cementing the concept of a hard-headed character. It doesn't feel rooted in reality. Is Zdenek that disconnected? I say no. Speaking from personal experience, this is just the sort of thing I'd say as mafia.

If it's so over the top, arrogant or not rooted in reality, it should be easy for you to find examples to back up your previous stance, but there aren't any here. It's completely devoid of content.

[Zdenek]

1. My point is based on an aspect of your meta we disagree on, not a misrep.

2. I said that I do think BBMolla's claim clears him.

3. I called you out immediately when you flopped onto me - it was an awkward transition and was blatantly omgus to me calling you out for ducking addressing the AV situation while sideline cheering other wagons.

4. The hypocrisy would be the hypocrisy of supporting wagons you weren't voting while not advancing wagons you were voting.

1. How is god's name does my meta relate to what I had to say about Feysal's meta?

2. No.

he's really not a good lynch at least until we've wiped out the scum team he's clearly not a part of.

3. I'd addressed the AV situation. I'd disagreed with the reasons for why he was being unvoted. You're clearly not reading my posts, and I have only one vote, but more than one scum read.

4. There is no way that I am getting someone lynched while they're being defended by some of the people in this game. Sitting my vote on AVox or Tyene until the deadline would be complete unproductive.

[Zdenek]

Okay, then you disagree with my call on Feysal's meta, even though I didn't really make one except maybe about how you addressed it.

This makes no sense to me in the context of the discussion. You said

1. My point is based on an aspect of your meta we disagree on, not a misrep.

Your comment there doesn't even mention my meta.

Also, yes, on BB.

Repeating yourself doesn't make it true;

he's really not a good lynch at least until we've wiped out the scum team he's clearly not a part of.

pretty clearly suggests that you don't think he's cleared.

No, you had offered vague whines on the AV situation and did not address the issues at all and then started selling other wagons while sitting on him.

I was not vague at all.

It's true that AVox doesn't fit well as Aegon, still don't see how he's not Stannis and I totally think that MoS would want to setup a solid claim quickly.

Regfan had said that AVox is very unlikely to be Stannis, and his explanation is that it's because of using up the one-shot. I think that this would be a fine use of a one-shot like that.

As far as why I was voting Tyene earlier in the day goes, that's because I still have some hope that eventually I'll change someone's mind as new information becomes available.

[Zdenek]

1. Thor your 3402 is the first place where you suggest that my reading of Feysal's meta has something to do with my meta. It makes absolutely no sense.

2. It does not suggest that you think he is clear. I can't believe that you are even debating this. THe words around it, do not suggest that he is clear either.

3. I think that it's obvious why MoS would do that to set-up a claim. His style of play makes him hard to read, making him an excellent choice for investigations. In this game there likelihood of there being investigative roles other than cop is really high, so he'd probably want a solid claim. I was addrressing everyone unvoting when I made that post, I don't see the need to call out everyone by name. I don't have an AV=Stannis case, but I certainly don't think that he's not Stannis, and I've made my stance on MoS clear - early in the game it was gut based on him making mediocre/poorly timed attacks against people, his VCA was thoughtess, and later it was meta - i've seen him pull the whine and replace out move as scum, and the do very little until pressured and then do something big move as scum too (in this game that was his vca).

4. No what was scummy of you was trying to get me lynched for "not addressing the AVox wagon" which I'd clearly done.

[Zdenek]

1. I honestly don't even know what you're accusing me of now, you're the one who said my issue was about Feysal's meta. I said it was about you.

No. I've made it totally obvious what I am talking about and this is false. I cannot see this as anything other than a deliberate attempt to obfuscate the details. The topic numbered 1 in the discussion was explicitly about my interpretation of Feysal's meta. Check it:

1. My analysis remains fine on your Feysal push.

Then in 3402 somehow my meta becomes an issue:

1. My point is based on an aspect of your meta we disagree on, not a misrep.

I call you on it, and now you say it was somehow about my meta.

What the fuck, die.

2. Except that it does suggest that. 3229 explicitly calls him not scum, 3233 (which you're quoting a part of) is part of a theoretical discussion of why he supposedly should be dead if he was town but not if he was scum, and I still say he shouldn't be lynched.

No it doesn't.

BBMolla's actions don't make sense as scum though unless you think he's scum from [whichever team it was he claimed knowledge of] and he's betting the other team doesn't kill him because they want to leave him alive to help hunt down [whichever team he's giving info on].

So basically he's scum banking that the other scum team won't have enough paranoia to shoot him at some point?
Meh.

It says he doesn't make sense as scum, unless… I'm not say it's a case against him, but again it's pretty clear that you're not saying that you think he's clear.

3. How would establishing a claim of a roleblocker help him from a cop?

You're not even reading.

In this game there likelihood of there being investigative roles other than cop is really high, so he'd probably want a solid claim.

Note: other than a cop.

Thor is desperately full of shit and I desperately want him dead now.

Either of the other two wagons would be better then this.

Come vote Thor then.

[Zdenek]

Can we please lynch Thor. He's scum and I'm tired of this.

[Zdenek]

Which post?

[Zdenek]

I think you are confusing the word response with the word explanation.

[Zdenek]

Or something because it looks like in the first post you are accusing me of not doing something that you asked me to do, and the when I point out that I did explain myself to you, you act as though the problem was that I hadn't done it in the first place.

Why is this so confusing?

[Zdenek]

Oh I see, you're talking about your 2983. Okay, fine.

[Zdenek]

kortul is scum as fuck, sure

kortul is town as fuck, though.

hmm?

3. How would establishing a claim of a roleblocker help him from a cop?

You're not even reading.

In this game there likelihood of there being investigative roles other than cop is really high, so he'd probably want a solid claim.

Note: other than a cop.

Thor is desperately full of shit and I desperately want him dead now.

why are you treating not reading as a scumtell when not too long a go you misread one of my posts?

and thor is correct about zdenek urging on both wagons but not committing to either one until being called out on his av vote is scummy.

There is something badly wrong with you if you think that Thor ignoring something from a post of mine that he was immediately responding to is the same as me not realizing that you were referring to a line in one of your posts from 20 pages ago.

Your really grasping at straws, and you should stop it.

[Zdenek]

Why are you so sure on Timeater when, on Day 3 you're still unable to tie him in functionally to a scum group?

Here we see Thor defending Timeater on the grounds that he hasn't been functionally tied to a scum group. If this was actually important to him, he would have tried to tie me to one, he hasn't, and was just blowing hot air.

I believe that his failure to follow the lines of our discussion were deliberate.

I also regard Thor's recent comments about what he thinks bbmolla's claim clearing him as deliberate lies about what he mean when he initially commented. As evidence of this fact, when I responded earlier with the same interpretation as I am giving now, his response was, not exactly, but now he is clearly suggesting that he thinks I was just wrong.

[Zdenek]

misreading a post is a common occurrence here and you using it as justification for a lynch bothers me.

I'm not.

what is your read of me?

Seriously, how do you not know this? You being aware of my read on you was the entire basis for your attack on me from earlier.

[Zdenek]

V/LA Until Monday/Tuesday

God willing Thor will dead by then.

[Zdenek]

Vote Timeater

[Zdenek]

AVox should have never been "confirmed town" and is still probably scum.
Thor is still scum.

Vote: Thor

[Zdenek]

FUCKING CUT THE DOUBLE TUNNELING SHIT OUT NOW
ZDENEK WHO THE FUCK ARE YOUR SECONDARY AND TERTIARY SUSPECTS
GOD DAMN IT

My current thoughts are that there are four remaining scum, I think they are in:

Tyene
Thor
AVox
Minimum
Magua
bbmolla

arranged in order from most to least likely to be scum.

[Zdenek]

I've decided that Tyene is almost certainly a traitor, based on her use of the word traitorous on day one, and generally passive style of play this game. If she was recruited, it was on N1, by the Aegon faction, which isn't out of the question, considering the missing kill that day.

[Zdenek]

Passive style of play? Me? Have you even LOOKED at the Activity Overview?

The issue is your lack of suspects.

I was the one who landed the most weight on Saporerint's PM fail?

There was literally no way he wasn't getting lynched after that, so yes, bussing would make sense.

Frankly, I have no idea, how someone with no suspects can possibly be obv. town.

[Zdenek]

And the idea that I am tunneling at this point is fucking ridiculous.

[Zdenek]

THOR!

[Zdenek]

I've decided that Tyene is almost certainly a traitor, based on her use of the word traitorous on day one, and generally passive style of play this game. If she was recruited, it was on N1, by the Aegon faction, which isn't out of the question, considering the missing kill that day.

Also this seriously, seriously, seriously sucks.
You tried tying Tierce to Feysal initially, and then when he flips Stannis Traitor, you're all "WELP GUESS SHE'S AEGON" which is just fucking stupid.
the painting tierce as traitor train has passed a long time ago, it's time to start looking somewhere else.

Look, her read on Feysal changed, and as far as I am concerned it did no for no apparent reason. Maybe she thought Feysal was looking for a traitor; I don't know, but I'm not pushing for her lynch now, and I'm hoping that she does something actually makes me think she's town in the meanwhile.

[Zdenek]

Vote: Zdenek

this lynch should've happened yesyerday.

Yesterday I pushing zdenek to go into more detail with his read on me because, despite what he may say, his read wasn't very clear. It went from an acceptable lynch for an mjaye post to an overall town read on mjaye back to there being some connection between me and thor. The progression and the lack of being able to flat out state someone is town, null, or scum is scummy

I'm done acknowledging your existence. A Day ago it was Feysal-making-me-Stannis, now you're trying to shoehorn me in Aegon.

this is a very good point. It is a very dissonant jump in logic.

I haven't reread much recently, instincts are telling me I should start with pandora.

Oh dear lord, what are you talking about.

Any way, let's mass claim.

[Zdenek]

what I am talking about is you taking a very vague and wishwashy stance on me, with very little followup. Even when I said I was no longer comfortable with thor's lynch you never asked me to explain why. Shows a lack of interest in discerning my alignment.

Not to mention a major disconnect in thinking tyene was a stannis-traitor yesterday to thinking she is a aegon-traitor today.

1. What do you of of Tierce having no suspects?
2. I assumed you weren't comfortable voting Thor because of your scum read on me, and me voting him. Am I wrong?
3. I think Tierce is either a traitor or looking for a traitor. I've decided that it's more likely that she's a traitor, and I don't think there are two Stannis traitors. There's no disconnect, just a change of perspective.
4. What are your other reads?

[Zdenek]

Anx, you should probably look at how wishy washy your reads on Pandora and Magua are, and then realize how stupid your case on me is.

[Zdenek]

Well, you are wrong, but that's not the point. The point is that you think I'm scum for something that you are doing. So assuming you are town, you should realize just how dumb your case is.

[Zdenek]

Having wishy washy reads.

[Zdenek]

My change of read came before you said your read on me was leaning town.

[Zdenek]

Your case is weak and you're pathetic for being so satisfied with it that you are doing nothing else.

[Zdenek]

I am not doing nothing else I am currently re-reading the thread(mainly magua and pandora) and waiting to see who pushes for a massclaim and who lets it go.

If my case is

so

"weak" and I am

so

"pathetic", why are you so concerned about it? I am the only one voting you and I wasn't even in your scumpool, yet you are solely focused on shutting down my "dumb" case. You've completely stopped pressuring your thor and tyene scumreads despite being

so

adamant about lynching them earlier.

I'm concerned because your bullshit will lead to my lynch at some point in time.

No one cares about my Tyene case and I have nothing new to present on her, so I'm putting that to the side.

My vote is on Thor.

[Zdenek]

Jeyne Poole, VT

Tyene goes next.

[Zdenek]

I am randyll tarly, basically a joat, last night I investigated regfan and got back cersei lannister as a character name.
had a one shot roleblock that mockingjaye used on dolorous edd.
there is another aspect to my role that was used night two and night three that I do not want to reveal if possible.

[Zdenek]

I'm pretty sure Anx should full claim, but I have town read on him, so I am in somewhat willing to accept this, I just I hope he knows what he's doing.

[Zdenek]

Okay, so here's my current take on this Anx business.

The badish.

1. MockingJaye does fit in with any scum team.

2. The fact that he supported a mass-claim while both not intending to claim himself, and not wanting to Minimum to claim. This shows cognitive dissonance. Considering the amount of power that's already flipped/claimed and his bulletproof claim, I think that this could easily be him trying to get a doc outed provides scum motivation.

3. The Rolecop/roleblocker aspect of his role in the presence of the torturer and the Frey-cop.

4.

I am randyll tarly, basically a joat, last night I investigated regfan and got back cersei lannister as a character name.
had a one shot roleblock that mockingjaye used on dolorous edd.
there is another aspect to my role that was used night two and night three that I do not want to reveal if possible.

I don't have 6+ abilities, I only have 3, one of which that was active the other nights but hasn't been used up.

dammit nacho, i am town, and i have a one shot bulletproof that can't be used the same night as other abilities.

That could be a miswording, but it might also just be him being lying scum using the possibility of having another action to cover for the possibility gf begin tracked, and then forgetting that he did it. Shinori was still in the game when he claimed first.

The goodish:

1. MockingJaye was rather aggressive in her pushes.

2. He's been pushing this garbage case on me, which makes me angry, but it's not scummy. The fact is that as scum, he'd be loathe to eliminate me as a potential buddy to his partner (who may or may not exist considering there's a traitor), so should he be Stannis, this is irrelevant.

3. Some of his reactions seem really legit. For instance his reaction to me wanting to lynch Regfan if Tyene was scum over his defense of her, after he role copped him as Cersei.


The bottom line is that I am fine with this lynch. God knows I've been wrong before.

Unvote
Vote Anxiety

[Zdenek]

Unvote

An explanation would be good, but I am still happy with lynching Thor.

[Zdenek]

Vote Anxiety

[Zdenek]

This is a prod dodge.

[Zdenek]

already claimed.

i believe magua and minimum are the only ones left so magua is next.

and i don't think it is a good idea for minimun to reveal their ability.

Does anyone understand this post? It bothered me when I first say it, since there is no reason for Anxiety to have this information. The way I am interpreting it is that Anx's scum team has a role-cop, and that Minimum is not on the same team as Anx.

Am I missing something?

[Zdenek]

I see that he saw minimum as an investigative role. I guess he just got more info than he claimed.

[Zdenek]

Opps no that's wrong. I misread.

[Zdenek]

I've been looking over the game again, and have trying to figure out how to scum hunt using relations on the Aegon side. My current thinking is that informed means that person was aware of their teammates. In practice, I think that this means on day one Feysal was aware of (at least) one other Stannis person, who he could neighbourize night one, and then if they wanted they would be able to recruit him N2 or later. I don't as strong an opinion about how it worked on the Aegon side. The mirror situation would be bvoigt (not informed) was part of the main group and that Salamance (informed) was not. But without Salamance having the ability to contact his buddies, I think this makes less sense than the reverse situation.

[Zdenek]

I've been rereading today, and so far the two people who I think are reasonably likely to be scum and Stannis aligned are Kortul and Anxiety, so needless to say, I am not surprised by this at all.

[Zdenek]

To clarify:

I think that Minimum is fairly likely to be town because of interactions with both Salamance and bvoigt D1. Specifically, they were cross-voting with Salamance for quite a lot of D1, and bvoigt was on the Salamance wagon. They unvoted to vote DCL, and then unvoted DCL, which makes me think that they weren't bussing there. (However, due to Aegon being split up, the reasoning for them not being a member of that faction is fairly weak).

Tyene Sand (Tierce) - probably not Stannis aligned due to interactions with RedFF.

Magua - I have a gut town read here.

AurorusVox - town because of being the only protective role.

Pandora (Shadoweh/Quilford) - town because of role-synergy with Shinori and the reasons that regfan gave.

BBmolla - role makes no sense as stannis at all

Thor665 - I think he is more likely likely to be Aegon aligned due to Jal's interactions with the Salamance slot.


To summarize my thoughts as of now, I think the scum teams look like:

Stannis:
Kortul
Anxiety,

I can't rule out Magua, but such is life.

Aegon:
Thor
*Trying to be diplomatic,* one of bbmolla, Magua, Minimum, Tyene.

I'd be happier if my read on Magua was based on more than just gut.

My reasons for thinking Minimum's not Aegon are weak given that Aegon's split up

There's also the possibility of bbmolla being Aegon aligned and the purpose of his claim being to inform the other Aegon scum of their presence, his votes on Salamance and defense of bvoigt don't help me feel great about him, but it's iffy.

My current goal is to try to get more solid reads on these four and specifically trying to see what I can do about my Tyene read that seems to be contrary to most people's.

[Zdenek]

Kortul, why do you think that Regfan was almost confirmed town?

[Zdenek]

Well bbmolla is officially town because two bp on one team is Lolz and anx would have claimed bp earlier if it was a gambit.

Vote: Thor

[Zdenek]

In this post you call Kortul Stannis-scum; you give reasons for all your reads except this one. Can you explain how you decided he was Stannis scum? Also, could you re-evaluate given 4nx's Aegon-flip, or at least tell me if the "one of..." reads can apply to Stannis scum in place of 4nx?

Reading how Kortul talked about both bvoight and Salamance on day one, it's not too likely that he's Aegon aligned. Well, considering we know they were split up, this isn't the strongest point, but it makes him being scum less likely. On the other hand, I don't see Stannis scum sticking their necks out and voting Thor like he did at the end of the day yesterday.

[Zdenek]

Without the finished reread ISO is the way to go, so i will check Salamence20 and bvoigt (two leading wagons for Vote);

Says he's going to look into both his buddies.

With meetings/etc only finished Salamance ISO. I think he is leaning scum.

Says Salamance is scum, which is a plus.

Can those who vote bvoigt explain, why he is more scummy than Salamance20 (or why Salamance20 is town for you, if that's the case)? If this is meta based, are there clear examples of bvoigt!scum or Salamance!town that you can link to?

Pushes Salamance.

At the same time it appears that Salamance20 has a reputation of VI (MoI) and "blatantly easy counterwagon" (Tierce), which explains most of my points against him (except for catching up post). Since he replaced out, VI part hopefully is out of picture now. Will reassess the read on Sala slot once his replacement will start posting content, but for now bvoigt is more viable lynch out of two, even though i am still not happy with it.

VOTE: bvoigt

Gives Salamance the benefit of the doubt and votes bvoigt.

I definitely prefare Shadow wagon to bvoigt or Saporerint. Will ISO DCL and/or Stefan after reread (or if their possible wagons will start moving). But if all wagons will be stuck, will reassess leading wagons closer to deadline and make a final decision, nolynch is definitely the worst outcome.

One definite issue is that he didn't spend long on the bvoigt wagon, and switched to Shadow pretty fast. So these pushes could be bussing, but I'm pretty unsure about that and there are a couple of posts that seem pretty townie to me.

[Zdenek]

If they were both the leading wagons though...seems like by definition he would have to talk about them, yeah?

No. It would be nice if the lead wagons were always addressed, but they aren't. Anyway, that's not the only point.

[Zdenek]

What are the other points?

They're in the same post where this one was. I can go look for his posts that I was talking about later, but why don't you try reading?

Avox, I'd say that PoE makes Kortul pretty likely to be scum, but it also makes minimum and Magua pretty likely to be scum. On the other hand, I think that Thor is more likely to be scum than any of these three, so I'd rather lynch him today, see what he flips and what we are left with tomorrow.

[Zdenek]

So you have Thor as top scumread, with kortul/minimum/magua as all tied for the last two spots?

Yeah, that's pretty close to where I am at.

I'm just trying to figure why you think a soft bussing action at the stage where two Goon buddies were on the block equates to a clear Kortul

At this point, I want to lynch you for misrepresenting my stances. It's not about a clear Kortul, it's about who is most likely to flip to scum.

We should lynch Thor because is he effectively only on the defensive, and he is bullshitting rather than scum-hunting.

[Zdenek]

Reading how Kortul talked about both bvoight and Salamance on day one, it's not too likely that he's Aegon aligned. Well, considering we know they were split up, this isn't the strongest point, but it makes him being scum less likely. On the other hand, I don't see Stannis scum sticking their necks out and voting Thor like he did at the end of the day yesterday.

I gotta say.
That reads as 'Kortul isn't likely scum' to me.

Thor try reading. Since Aegon is split up, what happened on day one, doesn't give a strong argument for him not being Aegon.

I'm fucking tired of this. Lynch Thor.

[Zdenek]

2. I said that I do think BBMolla's claim clears him.

So now, when it's more likely than it was before that BB's town, you change your mind?

[Zdenek]

Why did you change your mind?

[Zdenek]

Paranoia.

So where did your suspicion of Minimum go?

[Zdenek]

The point was he'd seen me as town playing like that - so why did he find it *so* objectionable and obv. scumThor here?

Judges?

LIES!

Oh wait, this gets funnier. Looks like in Storm of Swords Thor *was* town...with scum Zdenek, let's look at some interplay;

"Thor has not answered my questions about the "logic loops" that he's claimed that I've made, and yesterday he said that he thought I was town and voted me in hopes of preventing a Feysal lynch. "
Thor changes scum and town reads quickly and without explanation. Scummy Zdenek hops on this.

"[Thor] say

meh to someone who thinks that I am scum, which appears to agree with your feelings, and then you vote for me, providing no reason, when yesterday you thought I was town?"
Again, Thor with sudden reverse reads - look how scummy Thor is.

He also kept demanding that I explain how I saw holes in his logic.

That is, again, SCUM Zdenek responding to TOWN Thor.
Any similarities?
Any evidence of Zdenek expecting me to be "better"?

Knock my socks off everyone.

I am thinking the Kortul wagon should also probably go away.
I am leaning lynching Zdenek or BB today - who is interested in either of those, I'll sheep you.

Thor is flailing. Lynch now please. His suspicion of bb has changed for no discernable reason, and was adamant that BB was town earlier.

[Zdenek]

The quote you provided supports what I'm saying now.

I've explained the reverse on BB.

No, it does not.
Now,

The point was he'd seen me as town playing like that - so why did he find it *so* objectionable and obv. scumThor here?

Then,

That is, again, SCUM Zdenek responding to TOWN Thor.
Any similarities?

In the first you are arguing that I should not find you scummy because you also play like this as town, and in the second you are trying to argue that there are similarities between my play in ASOS and here.

Paranoia.

*spreads arms wide*

Are not explanations.

[Zdenek]

You saying that you play like this as town is irrelevant. If you are aware of your own meta, you can play to it. The point you were trying to make with each of those posts is clearly different, and I've explained that already.

As for *spreads arms wide* how that could possibly be an explanation for your change of reads, I'll never know.

You have been full of shit since replacing in. I believe that you have been deliberately misinterpreting things (even things that you have said yourself). I am not actually interested in your explanations because as far as I can tell you will anything that sounds good in the moment to justify whatever stance you think will best serve you. Doing these things is why you are scum.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek, a moment of your time while you're wailing at Thor, why would Thor actually put his vote where his mouth is against you when the only hope I see of him surviving today involves voting kortul? Can you explain what he's doing from a scum perspective?

That's basically pure wifom that you are getting into. From a scum perspective, he does it, so that people will think what you are thinking.

[Zdenek]

@Zdenek: Who do you think is scum besides Thor?

You, Minimum, Kortul in some order. I'm hoping that Thor's flip will help me decide which.

I like WIFOM though. An saying 'because scum would want you to WIFOM' can explain practically any townie thing anyone does, but it doesn't make suboptimal choices better. I'm really not feeling like you're thinking this through any harder then Thor is scum because scum now lynch.

No, the primary reasons that I think that Thor is scum are his changes of reads that make no sense and the fact that he is misrepresenting things.

[Zdenek]

Hammer hammer
Bo bammer
Fee fie fo fammer
Hammer

prod-dodge.

[Zdenek]

Prodded. Sorry.

Why isn't Thor dead yet?

[Zdenek]

I've been explicit about why I think you are scum.

[Zdenek]

I don't really care how other people are getting to the conclusion that you are scum.

Why do you think that Magua and Minimum are town?

[Zdenek]

1. I know - it's one of the things I keep calling you scummy over. But I'll take that to mean 'I recognize that there isn't actually any case on Thor, but would prefer not to dwell on that point because it's an easy mislynch'

2. Magua for how he's responding to the wagons. Minimum only for the claim.

1. This is why Thor is scum. He says there is no case on him. I tell him I've explicitly said why he is scummy. He asks me about other people's cases, I tell him I don't care about them, then he turns around and acts as though that was an acknowledgement that there is no case on him, which it patently wasn't. It's crazy talk.

2. Well I can see that there is no point in trying to actually discuss there alignments with you,

Someone hammer.

[Zdenek]

Minimum, where did you get your meta on Pine lurking as scum?

[Zdenek]

I'm willing to sheep dead people at this point since they can't be worse then I am right now.

How about dead people who weren't lunatics and actually put some thought into their reads, like Magna and Plumamma?

[Zdenek]

Yeah I can't imagine why you would accuse the guy who thought you were scum of being a lunatic.

Okay, so then explain to me Thor's reads/changes of reads on Minimum and bbmolla.

Presently, I'd be inclined to vote for Minimum today - most likely to be scum, not Stannis aligned.

[Zdenek]

sorry scum that is Stannis aligned

[Zdenek]

I reread the first 20 pages, and the only thing that stands out to me, is that the list of people who expressed suspicion of Minimum early on and the list of people night killed killed has a big intersection: Plessiezarus, MoI, Lyanna, Benmage, Regfan, Tyene.

[Zdenek]

Yeah, I'm being spiteful.

But feel free to ignore the significant piece of evidence against AV I just brought up.

Which piece?
The activity one was lame.

All we know for sure is that the Stannis faction had a traitor. We don't know that Stannis had to do the NK, and anyway, that's unlikely because on N1 AVox role stopped Shadow.

[Zdenek]

There's almost zero evidence supporting AVox rolestopping Shadow.

Missing kill n1 and shadow surviving n1.

[Zdenek]

Do you think this sounds like someone who believes that MoS is not scum but is leaving himself open to mislynch him, or thinks there is a reasonable chance that MoS is his teammate?

What do you think?

I would say leaves open to mislynch as possible Stannis scum.

Kortul, my guess is that the scum teams are 3-1 (traitor), 2-2 (split).

[Zdenek]

@Zdenek, i think i remember you saying before that MoS possibly protecting Shadow doesn't exclude him from being Stannis. Did you change your view on this? If yes, what's the reason?

Well, that doesn't exclude him from being Stannis, but I've got to bet on town having a protective role.

Magua, what do you think about NK's and minimum being scum?

[Zdenek]

Magua, is the only that you want to vote me day one voting patterns?
Are there any votes from my slot that you think are scummy or is you suspicion of me based solely on you doubting that Minimum is Stannis because they unvoted DCL?

[Zdenek]

Is there a reason aside from the nightkills that you think we're most likely to be Stannis? Walk us through the steps that led you to that conclusion--your proclamation that we were Stannis came out of nowhere. What do you think about the other players in this game--town, Stannis, Aegon, not sure?

Well I think AVox is probably town because I suspect that town has a protective role, and I think that there are good reasons to think that Pandora is town mostly brought up by Regfan earlier in the game. So that leaves You, Kortul and Magua as the remaining scum. Because of your interactions with Sala and Bvoigt I am inclined to think that you aren't Aegon aligned, so that leaves you as Stannis. I think that Kortul as Aegon makes sense. That leaves Magua as probably Stannis. Though, my views on Magua's and Kortul's alignments aren't as strong.

I am deeply saddened by AVox's scum list.

Anyway, I haven't read any of the long posts yet. I'll be back tomorrow.

[Zdenek]

Mod: can we get a deadline extension because there's no way that I am going to be able to give this game the necessary attention in the next 6 days.

[Zdenek]

2. DCLXVI was being bussed by the entirety of his team D1 in a Large Theme

Considering that in exchange the Stannis faction picks up a NK and town-cred, this would actually not surprise me at all.

Makes a lot more sense as some sort of claim gambit.

What sort of claim gambit are you thinking of?

I'm clearing Magua because he's obvobvTown)

Why?

Minimum, I still want you to tell me where you are getting you meta on Pine lurking/lurking to the point of replacement as scum.

Zdeken is neighbourizing Stannis scum

This is just insane.

[Zdenek]

I have been doing all of the posting. I think I said awhile back that I could dehydra but I really love this furry little guy. He hasn't posted in our QT since.. awhile ago. <_< Sorry but you'll have to settle for 100% pure refreshing spring Shadoweh.

Are you making fun of my spelling? I think I was still drunk when I wrote that. I kind of still have a hangover now <.< You know what would be cool is if you did the thing I asked you to do so we can lynch you faster.

I'm not making fun of your spelling. The idea that I am neighborizing Stannis scum is insane - specifically the idea that I would have claimed Jayne Poole after Feysal who was going to flip Stannis specific neighborizer, neighborized me is crazy, because of possible night actions.

I've been clear about my top three Minimum, Magua and Kortul.

[Zdenek]

Feysal was lying.
Zdenek was being honest.
This is very sad.

A haiku for ADWD.

The two people I think are town, think that I am scum, and we don't all agree on a single read. This should mean that I am wrong about something, but I feel like Regfan and Plumamma would turn over in their graves if I ever voted for Pandora, and I agree with Regan's reasons for thinking that Pandora is town from earlier. AVox/MoS make sense as scum from a play perspective, except for a couple of points, his claim and how it came out, and I'm hesitant to believe that town has no protective role.

I don't see the difference in Kortul's play in this game and MoI's Dresden Files game that Minimum sees.
Magua calling me town all game, and switching because of is Feysal thing now, when it happened so long ago is bizarre.

V/LA until Monday

[Zdenek]

I see I've been prodded. Will be back later.

[Zdenek]

Kortul why are you ruling out a Minimum-Magua pair?

[Zdenek]

That's just dumb.

[Zdenek]

Still want you to say where you got your meta on Pine from?

[Zdenek]

Vote: Minimum

Scummy interactions with MoI at the start of the game.
AtE when pressured.
What seems to be a fake case on pine.
Complaining about the Staeg lynch when their vote was on him.
Unlikely to be Aegon.

[Zdenek]

How about we lynch someone who is scum, rather than me based on "reasons" and prob. scum Magua's PoE case.

[Zdenek]

Sorry for flaking. Well done Shadoweh and Magua. Weird how everyone kept talking about how Regfan's reasons for Pandora being town were why they thought Pandora was town, despite the fact that Regfan almost completely recanted in his second post before death.

Zdenek I don't know why you're upset with me (are you upset with me?) but if you are and you want to say something, please PM me about it.

I'm not.

[Zdenek]

So I was really pissed off when Staeg was actually hammered.

Sorry.

[Zdenek]

So I was really pissed off when Staeg was actually hammered.

Sorry.

(Well if you thought Staeg was scum and were happy it's fine and not your fault at all Zdenek)

I'd prefer to not make people angry, but such is life.

[Zdenek]

For what it's worth, my "study" in this game indicates that people without scum reads are more likely to be town. I guess I can see it making sense because scum know that they need to scum hunt, so they make sure to keep their ducks in a row. More research is probably required.