Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Alright, let's see.
Awkward first post, the sort of typical scum who feels like they should say something but can't think of anything to say.Zoronos wrote:Oh man my first game in like a year.
Now I have to remember how to play.
This feels reeeeeeally like a scummy claim to me. Pings me really very hard. Feels like a mafia ascetic trying to act like a town ascetic. It also doesn't necessarily reduce the negative effect of ascetic to claim it, as, if town, eagerSnake is now a free nightkill if scum want to kill him.eagerSnake wrote:Might as well tell you guys now I have the Ascetic modifier so don't waste actions on me.
Gamma's reaction to the claim is town. Zoronos' is not; calling it interesting without giving any comment on what it makes them think of eager's alignment is scummy, and it follows the trend set by their RVS in that it's very empty commentary that feels like scum saying things for the sake of saying things.
Zoronos' subsequent question to me is potentially indicative that he's saying these things because he's bored but I feel like if he was bored town he would at least try to analyze the ascetic claim a bit beyond calling it "interesting."
That's it for up until my last post, gonna split this here to avoid wallposting too early.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Grendel's opening post is also potentially scummy.
Why not just ask the questions? This seems unnecessarily roundabout.Grendel wrote:Anybody up for some questions?
I've been finishing up a new set I want to use.
If this is non-sarcastic then I'm holding you to this - I'd like to hear what actual alignment-indicative or otherwise useful content you're getting out of these questions.Grendel wrote:If its cool I'd like you all to leave me to analyze them,
Also of all games to feel like you need to force an RQS or RVS, this is a very silly one. We havea claim.On page one. An unusual one at that. We have a goldmine of material to analyze already - why do you feel the need to instigate an RQS? RQS and RVS as they're usually conceived are both kind of outdated anyway. There's usually enough substance in the first few posts to get reads that are legitimate enough to argue about, even if they're very unstable.
Zoronos, you're implying a scumread on Grendel; why not follow it up with a vote?
A number of reasons.eagerSnake wrote:Why aren't you voting me then? If you're going to try and push popular opinion in this light then vote me you scared child
VOTE: Zoronos-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I don't really see it as a contribution until I'm convinced that they're useful but I don't have a problem with humoring you (I sort of find it weird that Zoronos explicitly does? not scummy weird but etc and at least they did explain why to some extent)Grendel wrote:Yes, I like to review the question results to see if I can divine some alignments. Why not contribute to the game with your answers?
1) I historically have preferred town but was actually somewhat hoping to draw scum this game because I believe I haven't played a game on mafiascum as bona fide mafia in 2.5 years. Which is ridiculous. 1 game as a traitor in that timespan. And I can say this more openly now since this is the only game I'm in :p.
2) I've been mislynched *mostly* in games that I shouldn't have signed up for in the first place because of not having the time for them, although there was another recent game I played which was the first game I can recall in a long time where I was mislynched and really felt like I shouldn't have been.
3) I don't have a playstyle beyond doing what I feel like doing at the time.
4) Not enough information (although it's ironic that they're both on my scumread list right now).
5) I've learned not to really be excited for games per se because how much I enjoy games is largely a product of factors that can't be predicted at the start of a game.
It's really quite simple. I essentially pay 0 heed on d1 to interactions without flips. Why can't I find you both individually scummy? And further why couldn't I suspect you both of being scum together with Zoronos bussing you? I really don't see what you're getting at or why it's strange to be scumreading both of you.Grendel wrote:I'm interested why you find my entrance poitenally scummy when you feel Zoronos is legitimately scummy. If you thought that Zorones was implying I'm scum then why was your initial reaction to my post, "well that's kinda scummy"? Sorry, but its weird that you'd have me as a tertiary scum read while your top scum is, in your opinion, also scum reading me. If you think he is scum, why do you think I am scum too?
Agreed with eager that nn is probably town. Although I wouldn't go so far as to say that nn can only be scum if they're an alt; that's a bit premature, there can be good players who haven't played on MS before.
I actually find this interesting because after my last game that just ended before I signed up for this one, I sort of had a realization that I (and maybe everyone?) put too much stock in logic or analysis, or the quality of an analysis, as determinative of alignment. Individual players who are logical in their town games will almost certainly be logical and show a level of rigor in their analysis in their scum games. Do you really think simply the presence of analytical thought is indicative of town? Or do you think that the thought process Grendel displayed was more likely to come from town?Zoronos wrote:This is a decently analytical thought though for this point in the game. ++towniness.-
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Took longer than I thought to get to this game today so forgive what is about to be a multipost because I think they're more readable than walls. Alas.
Why yes, how kind of you to notice.Gamma wrote:Serious vote. He doesn't talk about LUV at all but then votes him. Trying to flashwagon are we?
Early flashwagons are great.
And shadow so politely asked for people to join him. Frankly it's rude of you not to join him .
PP actually raises a pretty good point in 149 - you criticize me for trying to flashwagon with my vote on LUV (which was the second vote on him) and then vote me, also as the second vote, in a way that implies that you think it's still okay (or at least possible) for people to be making completely nonserious votes (which, ding ding, mine on LUV was). What gives? If being the second vote on someone amounts to flashwagoning, then why do you get a special designation allowing you to flashwagon? Or did you not really think that non-serious votes were still possible?-
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I also seriously question Gamma calling LUV town at the point of 161, implicitly for his posts on page 7. How is anything LUV said on that page a towntell? I don't care if he did this last game and he was town, that's a terrible reason to call this play town; it's not like it's difficult to emulate that as scum. It also makes me a bit more suspicious of Gamma. It feels like he's just jumping to that conclusion because it helps lend credence to his vote on me if LUV is town.
I just disagree at a fundamental level that those opinions are, or should be viewed as, contradictory, for the reasons that (1) they can easily both be true and (2) we're not at a stage of the game where we should think about reads based on interactions.Zoronos wrote:It seems like he's holding contradictory opinions and trying to justify them after the fact
I actually like Zoronos' recent posting more on a gut level that I'll try to justify more later, but I'm not particularly suspicious of him anymore; he's at least following pretty clear lines of thought. I actually also like his insistence that we shouldn't care about the ascetic claim; it seems somewhat more likely than not to be genuine.-
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@boring's 202, not quite true, it's not like his claim guarantees that he's going to die tonight. He could be an ascetic power role or an ascetic townie if he's town, and this really should be something we err on the side of not speculating about for obvious reasons.
I like PP's reaction to Grendel a lot, he gets town points. I very much dislike Gamma switching off of me and onto Zoronos when (1) I had given nothing responding to his "serious vote", (2) he criticized me for "trying to flashwagon" which makes it sound like at least at some level he disapproves of early wagons, and his vote on Zoronos casually makes it the largest wagon yet at 4.
You seem to be misunderstanding how I made those posts. Those were essentially two halves of one post; I essentially only read the thread up to a certain point, posted 61, continued reading, then posted 64. Note the last sentence of 61 explaining this. No reason to make a vote in 61 when I might make another in literally the next post. I mean, Gamma even explained this for me in 63. Inn wrote:Also, in 61 he gives a reason for snake being scummy. In 62 snake calls him out on it (why don't you vote me then?) and in 64 he goes on to ask Zoronos why he didn't follow up his scumread with a vote. He ends 64 by voting Zoronos.
Here's what the problem I have with that exchange - he doesn't vote anyone in 61 himself (which contradicts his line of questioning to Zoronos in 64). After snake calls him out in 62, he claims to have a "number of reasons" to not vote for snake (wut?) and then goes on to vote Zoronos.alsogave reasons for Zoronos to be scummy in 61, not just eagersnake. It's not like I voted zoro out of nowhere. I also don't really have much interest in lynching eager today unless he acts exceptionally scummy (and I think his play since claiming is somewhat town). The claim has a chance of sorting itself out for free if he's town and scum consider the free potentially-pr shot worth taking.
For reference, on weekdays I mostly post right after getting back from work and right before bed. But I don't always get to the game after getting back from work. And I'll often peruse the game during work so I have some idea what I find interesting when I actually get to it later.nn wrote:Also, implosion went dark after leaving his vote on luv. It's been ~18 hours since he last posted-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Not really gonna read Grendel or LUV's thick posts for now. Loosely, townpile right now consists of {shadow, nn, pp, eager, zoronos, grendel}. Why yes, for the observant eye, that does include all three people I called scum on page 3. They all started acting townier. I think Gamma is a great vote right now:
-his switch to Zoronos makes very little sense when he's gotten nothing out of his vote on me, and it seems to contradict his apprehensiveness towards flashwagoning (even if his problem with my vote was that I didn't explain it, that still doesn't jive with either the fact that he implied that we were still in RVS as PP pointed out, or him using the word flashwagoning when describing it which implies that he thinks early wagons are bad).
-the reason I had for weakly townreading him early isn't actually any good (it was 22, which is no reason to townread him if eagerSnake is town).
-he's managed to say a lot without really saying a lot. It took him 30 posts to get to his first "serious vote" on me, almost all of which is non-content and really none of which gives any indication on what he's thinking about anything (he mentions "a few townreads" without naming any). He's clearly engaged in the game. He does a lot of clarifying things (linking the wiki, mentioning that I have half a wall to go). But he gives no content. Just a bunch of stuff which gives the illusion thereof, until he latches on to literally the easiest reason to vote someone. I really find it hard to believe that the first thing he found seriously scum-motivated was seeing me, an experienced player, dropping a vote on someone without giving any reasoning. Would Ireallydo something like that as scum but not as town? I'd hope he'd realize that there's no way I would do something like that as scum unless it's the kind of thing I'd do as town as well.
And I mean, come on:Gamma wrote:And it's not that I specifically townread LUV,
If it was a bad reason to vote him based on meta, you would have said such; you did not say that. You called him town. In quite the most explicit way possible. You don't just get to say X, and then go back and say no, when I said X I meant Y.In post 161, Gamma Emerald wrote:LUV is town
VOTE: Gamma-
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This is a nice distortion of what I said; I said that you unvoted without having gotten anything out of the vote on me, and listed other problems with it as well.In post 255, Gamma Emerald wrote:I'm sorry, did I say I townread you when I voted Zoronos?No I didn't.
This is a self-defeating sentence; the definition of OMGUS is when player A votes player BIn post 256, Gamma Emerald wrote:This feels like an extended explanation of a OMGUS vote.for the reason that player B voted player A.OMGUS is not a meaningful phrase when describing votes that have other reasoning listed.
Am I not allowed to vote you without it being OMGUS just because you voted me? Does the fact that you voted me somehow give you immunity from being scumread by me, without it being scummy for me to scumread you because it's OMGUS?
Calling my vote OMGUS is just childish.-
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it's 1 am and I have work tomorrow.In post 258, Gamma Emerald wrote:I forgot about that.
Also, you're not reading LUV's major contribution? Any reason other than being a lazy reader?-
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Phone post.
Gamma, I'll read luv later. I have limited time and for now thought addressing other things would be more worth that time. And if you think I'd accuse you of omgus then I question whether you actually read what I said... it isn't omgus if you give material reasons.
Nn, i really have no idea what you want from me. I respond to events in the order I read them (i.e. The order they were posted) and I did respond to what you said. Would you rather I respond to what you say first, before reading the rest of the game in order? Would you like me to mold my real life schedule around this game? I really have no idea why you're calling my posting pattern scummy.-
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False? I address them directly in 254.nn wrote:Also that from 247 - 261 he addresses a significant number of issues, but ignores the ones I've raised with him.
@Grendel, and @anyone else who wants to know why PP is town: PP's reaction in 219 and 221 makes me think town for a few reasons. 1, I think he shows genuine contempt, and that contempt indicates that he genuinely doesn't think your points have merit, meaning he's either town, or he's scum who thinks your line of reasoning is completely wrong which I find less likely because 2, it's antithetical to what I saw of PP's play in my other game with him. I pressured him a lot in that game; I was town, he was scum and he was, I think, a bit more hesitant to engage on such a direct level with calling the arguments I was making bad. He answered the queries I had about him and didn't really comment as much on the quality of my reasoning, iirc. Or at least it doesn't stick in my mind. I think the reaction of calling you bad town or scum is relatively unlikely to come from the scumgame that I saw in that game. 3, those posts in addition to contempt show a certain level of him feeling like he's in-the-right (since he's talking about how he was just being honest with his answers) that I think is consistent with town who feels like they've been accused for bs reasons.
Another case of Gamma misrepresenting things; PP isn't tunneling Gamma by any stretch, he had just given his first significant post explaining why he thought Gamma was scum and his vote wasn't even on Gamma.Gamma wrote:Keep the shovel: makes it easier to tunnel.
Ironic since I can think of at least three counts in this game where he has used terminology (omgus, tunneling, and even literally calling LUV town) to mean things that they don't mean at all.Zoronos wrote: Gamma strikes me as the kind of person that likes to be 'technically correct'.
If anything this is scummier than if he had called you scum for his analysis; by taking the antagonistic stance towards you without actually giving any meaningful commentary on your alignment to go with it, he provides the illusion of content. And I don't think contentiousness is an aspect of personality that scum are likely to consciously mute to a large degree; maybe somewhat but *shrug*.aZoronos wrote:This kind of play annoys me, however, I feel that it is less likely to come from scum because it's an inherently antagonistic stance. He didn't call me scum for thinking about Ascetic in terms of being like Miller since they were both negative utility; he just called me wrong and insinuated that I was bad.-
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Can you quantify exactly what you find similar?boring wrote:Gamma is acting exactly like he did in our last game.
A note on Zoronos: I actually think I might have trouble reading him accurately. He feels very town but I think there's a pretty decent chance that I'm just reading him based on playstyle. I like the way that he's analyzing the game.-
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And I think the most damning thing about Gamma (which I've mentioned but no one seems to have noticed) is still this flat-out contradiction. It's indicative that he doesn't actually have a consistent internal state of reads in his head; if he actually didn't hold the opinion that LUV was probably town, he straight-up would never have explicitly called LUV town. The fact that he called LUV town and then said that he doesn't actually believe LUV is town (just that a particular argument was bad) is very strong evidence that he's just pretending to have reads on people.-
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I'm feeling pretty lazy right now (just got back from trip) so i'm mostly gonna skim the last (many) pages.
Game with PP for whoever asked.
It was a newbie and I was the IC but there was a decent amount of vaguely-directed pressure on me throughout the game. I was never really considered strongly town except by like one person.Grendel wrote:In your last game with him, how much ‘ethos’ did you carry? E.i. would it have been scary for Scum!Pengiun to 1v1 you in that situation?
I don't really make much of him not answering the questions then answering them later. I mean it could be scum trying to fit in but -shrug- scum feeling the need to fit in aren't usually going to say explicitly "well everyone else is doing it." I can see it as that but also as just him being disinterested in RQS and then seeing people answering the questions and being like oh well why not i guess.
PP 431-433PP's entire page 18 also reads town... textbook annoyed town. Doesn't read at all to me as scum giving up. Continuing to give opinions and reads but clearly disgruntled.
This is such a deeply counterproductive way to look at the game on d1. Seriously. Even assuming 3:10 you have about a half a percent chance to correctly guess a 3-player scumteam. There's absolutely no reason to think about entire scumteams on day one. It just clouds judgment on individual players.Grendel wrote:Does anybody have some hypothetical scum teams cooked up?
I can't I.D. third scum for my scum team and want to hear some interactions people may have caught between people.-
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I think I felt a visceral lack of genuineness in PP's reactions in the other game I played with him. I feel none of that here.boring wrote:PenguinPower - Bad votes, reactions lack a feeling of authenticity, posts lacking substance, and dismissive in a way that I only see with scum.
485 is possibly a sign of gamma-town (the first sentence); i'll need to think over it more. Not enough atm to outweigh other things.
I think the PP and Gamma wagons are probably both pretty telling. Or they will be on future days, more accurately.
I'm tempted to throw boring into my scumpile for reasons that I'm not sure have merit. 3rd vote on what I suspect is a wagon on pp-town where i suspect the first two votes are also from town, and her reads list. It feels somewhat forced or like she's posting it for the sake of having posted it. It also feels like the reads themselves make a lot of sense from scum; the top several players are all my more confident townreads, so it's consistent with my view of the game that she'd have sprinkled her scumbuddies near the middle. Although again I don't want to put too much stock in that since it's dependent on reads of other players. Calling PP "dismissive in a way I only see with scum" is just weird. I see that kind of dismissiveness so much with experienced town players who feel like they're dealing with newbies and PP's dismissiveness looks pretty much identical to that to me; the way she qualifies it as "only in scum" sounds like it might not be accurate because of that.
I want to call Maria town but that's entirely gut that I'll probably try to substantiate later.
That mostly just leaves LUV, dierfire and prism to sort.-
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Lots of reasons for townreading shadow. In no particular order, 399 looks genuine, I like his early commentary on eagersnake's claim (he comes off looking like unsure town), 267 sarcasm is i think a slight towntell, his votes on LUV and Penguin feel like they're aggressive and pushing the game forward and taking stances in a way that has obvious town motivation and puts him in the limelight if he's scum, his re-vote and "flail scum flail" around the pp fakehammer look townish. The votes are probably the strongest reason among those. It feels like he's actually trying to accomplish things and get the game moving with his votes rather than voting to blend in.
Gamma still in my scumpile. 485 is essentially an inkling of looking like he has an actual internal set of opinions on how scummy everyone in the game is (the lack thereof being one of my problems with him, which I've mentioned) but like I said it isn't enough to outweigh the things I find scummy from him.
Zoronos read hasn't changed much I think (still I'd say weak town)-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I am reading through these past ~10 pages and holy hell is this cringey.
Mods putting in things that will get cced is nothing new. Very seriously nothing new. It isn't bastard. I put two town bodyguards in a large normal 5 years ago. Approved. The last large normal I was in had two macho townies which is pretty much the closest fucking thing i can think of to two town ascetics (or ascetic roles) SS and eager both read extremely town to me in the exchange.
I'm actually having trouble reading this shadow seriously you're wrong. eager isn't guaranteed scum from his claim *AT ALL*. Please stop acting like this is a 100% thing and basing all of your reads off of that assumption.-
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I also really really hate this:I've seen so many town ask this question before even when it was clearly on the first page and ugh. This reaction to maria saying that just feels so contrived like you're trying to preempt anyone from calling her town for saying it but you don't really want to commit to calling maria scum for it.
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He claimed an ascetic modifier rather than ascetic because he doesn't want scum to know that he isn't a power role... or because he's an ascetic power role and wants to claim honestly.Shadow wrote:Snake IS scum, he didn't claim ascetic, he claimed having ascetic modifier because that doesn't give him protection from being watched doing the kill etc.
His play makes complete sense if he's town.-
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@Prism: I somewhat meant to respond to those but got sidetracked and somewhat didn't really feel like they merited response? I mean you didn't really explain why you thought I was scummy for the most part, you just kind of listed things you thought were scummy.
No idea what you mean by this.On the other hand his read on Shadow is complete yuck and considering the thought that goes into most things I'm finding it hard to believe that this is the read getting the stamp of approval.
You don't like it because... townies are never unsure about things (hint: not the case)?I really don't like the noncommittal read on Maria in #562
You don't like it because... townies never seek advice when they're unsure about something (hint: not the case)?or the halfhearted opinion fishing on boring in #563.
I mean this I can kind of see? it's just wrong. I think almost everything he's done is pretty scummy but that was a reason to think he was town. I townhunt as much or more than I scumhunt, typically, so I'm looking a lot for things that I think are unlikely to come from scum or that indicate a consistent internal thought process that's motivated by trying to find scum.#565's opinion on Gamma looks to me like either distancing from the wagon before it flips or fishing for a future derailment more than a real reconsideration.
I guess I didn't really read 599 after 592 but.
Sure. But I've also committed to tons of reads. Including reads that are quite divisive (townreading penguin). Do you want me to commit to a read on every single player in the game? I feel that's unreasonable. But I still feel like I should try to sort everyone in the game. I think it's silly to imply that I should be confident in every read I have and I feel like that's what you're implying here.In general I think noncommittal reads are more likely to come from scum. They're a good multitool-they're reads so nobody can complain about you not giving content, they're easy to justify ("I like X and it makes me lean town on them") or shrug off entirely, they're easy to go back on ("After thinking about X I guess it's not that big of a deal, on the other hand Y really makes me lean scum") in future days, and they serve as additional justification for narrowing your choice of votes.
Here you go not explaining what you're referring to WRT my shadow read at all again.On Implosion, I really should have linked Implosion's #562 over his #563 as better illustrating my point. It's entirely possible he has a read with weak reasoning as he states and wants other opinions. On the other hand, that isn't necessarily true, and his other posts make me think it isn't. I'm not buying what he's selling on Shadow and I'm not buying the paragraph of "tempted to scumread boring but I just don't know" while making sure to keep pushing Gamma.
And just saying you're not buying it, again, does not merit a response from me; i can't respond to you with anything more than "you're wrong" if you don't explain yourself. So. You're wrong.
Yes, hence me not really being sure! Funny how the fact that parts of it made sense as coming from both town and scum, yet there being things that made me somewhat suspicious, led to me having an unconfident read!Presumably, boring's reads make a lot of sense as town considering they're implosion's reads too. Yet, that isn't the implication here.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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oh my god dudeIn post 801, Shadow_step wrote:
?????In post 798, implosion wrote:
He claimed an ascetic modifier rather than ascetic because he doesn't want scum to know that he isn't a power role... or because he's an ascetic power role and wants to claim honestly.Shadow wrote:Snake IS scum, he didn't claim ascetic, he claimed having ascetic modifier because that doesn't give him protection from being watched doing the kill etc.
His play makes complete sense if he's town.
Doesn't want scum to know he is a PR? What kind of town lies wtf
Ascetic PR is useless. If they want him to be unable to be protected by doc they would give him the machp modifier. What is the point of an ascetic PR and a town ascetic?
IT'S EXPLICITLY NOT A LIE. it's just not claiming his entire role. An ascetic PR makes sense if we have a doctor and an investigative role, or a watcher, or a tracker, or a neighborizer or FUCKING ANY OTHER POWER ROLE that targets him. Or maybe the scum have a rolecop and being ascetic means they can't figure out what he is. Or maybe since you're a town ascetic they chose to make him ascetic rather than macho to increase the symmetry of the setup.
Literally i can come up with reasons for like another ten minutes if you want to-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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The point isn't the game size, it's that it happens in normals. He's claiming that it's bastard; it's very simply not bastard to have a setup like that in a normal with this site's current meta.
In fact it's almost a point in favor of them both being town that podoboq, the mod, was one of the macho townies in that game; it seems likely that he saw that component of the setup design, liked it, and reinterpreted it for whatever setup we have here to get two town ascetics.
But the fact that the examples I can think of off the top of my head happen to be larges isn't important; what's important is that they're games that were judged normal on mafiascum.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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shadow please fucking actually engage with the points I'm making.
I know this site's meta way, way better than you do. It's objective. It's not up for debate. It is a very simple truth that two town ascetics is completely possible. I don't care if you scumread him for other reasons. But please stop this line of argument. You're wrong about that point. He might be scum (i still don't think he is) but you are 100% wrong about that point.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Three things.shadow wrote:Show me a game with 2 town ascetic and I *might* reconsider.
Macho is not a neg utility like ascetic so this doesn't apply.
One, please take a step back for a moment. The fact that you're saying you *might* reconsider if I show you very direct proof that you are wrong meansyou are being way too goddamn stubborn right now.
Two, there's a first time for everything. I'm not going to look through a thousand mini normals to find a game that has precisely two ascetics; it quite possibly hasn't happened, I have no idea if it has. That, again, does not make it bastard.
Three, ...what? Macho is straight-up a negative utility role. It's probably the single closest modifier to ascetic.
And @zoronos, site meta is very important when shadow's primary line of thought is "X would be bastard on this site, and this is a normal game, therefore X cannot be happening in this game." The first premise is flawed because he doesn't understand site meta.-
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It's not a super common occurrence to put two "counterclaiming" roles in a setup together and I'm not claiming it is. But (1) it happens and (2) podoboq having been in a game with an incredibly similar setup quirkand having had macho townie as his role in that gameis about as good of circumstantial evidence as you can get that it could be happening here.-
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I find the first bolded so, so hard to believe. You had a scumlean on him and the thing holding you back from that wasIn post 1037, boring wrote:@eager - I'm not sure you understand what buddying means. Most of what you posted was criticism. Also, why do you keep repeating that I'm happy about the conflict? I've been around for very little of this little scum theater.
@town? - eager has been coasting,and the only thing in the way of my gut scumlean was the fact that he had an uncc'd claim.A cc from an obvious town player was more than enough reason to vote him. Either way, how can so many of you accept eager's piss-poor "town" performance without resistance? I mean, eager has bragged twice now about how shitty town is playing by not calling him out for his lazy vote. You're all just taking the insult with pride, it would appear.The only positive thing I can say about this development is my wagon. It decreases the likelihood that eagerSnake, MariaR and implosion are ALL scum.I'll have to try to knock at least one out of the running.
If scum want to chainsaw me up to L-1, that's fine, but don't let them hammer without warning. I'll try to be back again tomorrow to check on things.
p-edit - S_s's play and tone were very aggressive early on.an uncced ascetic claim.When (1) tons of people have been explaining why it makes sense for him to claim it as a mafia ascetic (so the claim itself isn't a strong reason to townread him). And more importantly (2), being an uncced ascetic isn't a particularly townish thing... like, I can understand this if he were an uncced cop or doctor or tracker or generally an uncced power role, because making a power role claim puts you in the limelight and makes you suspicious if you don't die the next night. But I find it hard to believe that this was the only thing holding you back from scumreading him or more specifically that it would hold you back from scumreading him.
Second bolded part feels super contrived. Calling an L-2 wagon on herself positive as if to shout "hey, i don't really care if i'm lynched bc i'm not scum" from the rooftops with no regard to how harmful it would be if we lynch her and not eagerSnake in the event that she's town and he's scum (which, to be clear, I do not believe but she does). Giving the positive that you've eliminated one out of 200+ possible scumteams further evidences that she doesn't actually feel like the wagon on her is a good thing, she's just BSing to try to look like town-who-doesn't-care-if-they're-wagoned. If she were town she would be concerned about the wagon on her competing with the wagon on eagerSnake, or if she was genuinely glad about it would have more to say about it than "these three people aren't all scum" which is so likely to be true a priori as to have evidence in favor of it be utterly meaningless (reducing an 0.5% chance to an 0.1% chance is not meaningful, and that would require insanely strong evidence to do). We'll see what she has to say when she gives more analysis on it.
Posting from work because I really needed to get this off my mind while it's fresh. Will have more to say on the es-ss fiasco later. But it's gonna be more of what you've already heard.-
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I mean, I'm also getting tired of repeating myself. I can be a bit more specific. eager's insistence that they're both town, the way he's doing it, and his irritation resulting from shadow's play are pretty damn close to how I'd respond as town. They are also somewhat close to how I'd respond as scum. So I don't really read him solely off of the fact that he's calling himself and shadow both town. I think he is making an effort to get shadow to reconsider and has realized that it's futile, and that's not really useful for determining his alignment.In post 1133, Gamma Emerald wrote:
@implosion and nn30In post 1118, Gamma Emerald wrote:I need further input.
I mentioned that Grendel's summary made me rethink some things. What I'm having issues dealing with is determining the motivation behind a certain play. This play is the "both are town" idea that Eager and Maria have suggested. Thing is, I've used this defense before...
...As scum. It's a great way to avoid getting trapped in a CC if it works. What I need to know is if this is something you agree is something scum would do. I'm feeling incredibly confused right now and this feedback will help.
I want input on this.
I think the emotional content of his reaction looks consistent; I think he was looking like town before shadow claimed; I think the way he talks about shadow (i.e. 1060) sounds more reminiscent of town who has given up because they realize they're up against someone who will never change their mind rather than scum, who I feel would spend more energy directly trying to prove that they are town to players other than shadow. I think two town ascetics is honestly more likely than a town ascetic and a mafia ascetic, or than a town ascetic and a mafia goon or whatever fakeclaiming ascetic, because of the context of the large normal I linked where podoboq was one of two macho townies.
So yes, what eager is doing is something scum would potentially do but it's also certainly something town would do and it looks that way to me. I agree with his 1119.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I think Zoronos has said pretty much everything I want to on this page (and/or I agree with him). 1131, pretty much 1132 (not guaranteed bc he might claim it to preempt something like an investigative no-result on him but seems less likely the more i think about it), the first half of 1142 (i.e. the maria question being unenlightening - i also wonder why gamma specifically asked about those two when I've been pushing the same angle), and 1144.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Like I've said many times already. As someone who has been on this site ~6 years and who has seen tons of normal setups (and is very familiar with what normalcy means on this site, and who has read a number of normal game normalcy/balance review threads): it's perfectly possible to create a setup with two town ascetics that both counts as normal and would be approved for balance. Yes, it will probably take some finagling (either we have a lot of power or a lot of our PRs are passive, most likely, or the mafia also have roles that the ascetics screw with) but it is by no means out of the question or, imo, even that strange. Uncommon, sure.In post 1177, PenguinPower wrote:
Because I don't see how an combination of roles including two of those modifiers would be approved for normalcy and balance. I can't be 100% confident, but I'm confident enough at this moment.In post 1164, Zoronos wrote:What makes you confident of that?-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Not sure what you mean by this; when I said your earlier post didn't merit a response, I mean in the way that it wouldn't merit a response from you if I said "Prism is so scummy, vote: prism". It doesn't merit a response if there are no specific points to respond to.Prism wrote:Why approach someone else's townread the same way I did if he thought such an approach "didn't merit a response".
Consistency is a towntell in an extremely specific way and although I'm not going to ISO myself you should see that if you look at how I use it; consistency is a towntell insofar as it indicates that a person has an internally consistent set of reads. Consistency on its own isn't always a tell. Experienced players will be consistent almost always, and many players will have some inconsistencies in what they say as their reads change or they forget about minor things they noticed earlier. The main time I remember citing consistency earlier was in criticizing gamma for being inconsistent about a major read (or at least what seemed like a major read) over the span of <24 hours, which indicated a lack of a consistent internal thought process. Consistency in general is not indicative of town.Prism wrote:The first part is consistent with what boring's said throughout the game, with implosion specifically citing consistency as a towntell repeatedly throughout the game.
Golly, you sure do know a lot about the way that I think about the game of mafia for having met me like two days agoPrism wrote:The second part is just downright awful and a major stretch, and again I find it hard to believe that with the level of thought implosion tries to appear to put into the game, this is one of the ones getting his mental stamp of approval.
Also there's more of that non-specificity you seem so fond of... you're essentially saying "this is bad" and leaving it at that.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I actually phrased that a little poorly. When I say an "internally consistent set of reads," essentially, what I mean is that they're a set of reads that, in a sense, actually exist. A set of reads that are actual opinions that the actual person has about things that have happened and what alignments people are based on those things, rather than opinions that were manufactured and that they're simply trying to keep straight "externally" in the sense that they're not things that they actually really believe.
You're misunderstanding me... it sounded based on what you said that you believed that *I* thought that consistency is necessarily a towntell. I'm trying to clear that misunderstanding.Prism wrote:Acting like I don't know consistency isn't necessarily a towntell has to be a joke. It really does.
This is subjective, not objective. The degree to which a consistent sequence of stated thoughts indicates that someone is actually genuinely thinking about alignments is, like almost all good indicators of alignment, almost entirely subjective. So I simply disagree.Prism wrote:His description of how he views consistent internal thought process is exactly how boring's read on Eager was consistent.
That post was pretty much train of thought; I didn't say literally everything that I thought about it. I didn't mention that her reads being similar to mine was a particular reason for me to be uncertain because I was basically spending my thought in 562 trying to figure out what about her post it was that I found scummy.Prism wrote:He explained in #802 that this was a reason for why he was unsure on his read on her, but this isn't true. Go look for yourself at the context he used it:-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Anyway, to finally get around to boring...
This isn't the point I was making. This is actually just a non-sequitur to the point I was making. I just straight-up don't believe that the ascetic claim from snake would have as big of an impact on your read of him as you're implying that it did. You continuing to just call him "uncced" as if that means anything real when his claim is just an ascetic continues to further this.If you bothered to open an ISO, you'd see that I've been pretty clear about my feelings regarding eager's claim. That being, he was an uncc'd town claim, which left unchallenged, left him as a prime night kill target (because of the probably confirmed town status). As I also stated several times, if he lived to tomorrow, I'd re-evaluate. So for Day 1, uncc'd regardless of how untown he seemed, I didn't feel like I had much choice but to accept him as confirmed town.
You said "The only positive thing I can say about this development is my wagon." So, what are you even saying? You're literally calling your wagon a good thing. And "this development" is vague. Saying that you meant that as the "only" good thing about "this development" (which I took very vaguely to be the you-and-eagersnake competing wagons thing) does not change my point in the slightest that you called the wagon on you a good thing... I really have no idea how this is supposed to be a response to the point I made. It's like you're misreading your own sentence as far as I can tell, which makes me think I'm just misunderstanding what you're trying to say here. You didn't say "the only good thing about my wagon was X," you said your wagon was the only good thing about something else...I very much care if I'm wagoned. You may have missed it, but I said "the only good thing"... as a rule, when someone says "only", they mean just the one.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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This day is starting to really bore me. It's the same song and dance of the same people saying eager is town and the same people saying he's scum and no one budging. And I still have yet to see any reason that I agree with for me myself to budge.
I like boring more for scum than gamma at this point. She's my top scumread. I want to gut townread prism but I don't feel like I have any actually good reason to yet. Same with LUV, my gut says town and has for a while but I'm not sure where it's coming from. I could conceivably see dier as scum but still have no strong feelings on him; I'm also growing potentially suspicious of grendel, or at least he's not giving the townvibes he was.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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As for why boring has gone up over gamma she just keeps posting things that feel scum-motivated, I think the way she's pushed eager makes a ton of sense as scum and she hasn't posted anything that has pinged me as town. Gamma has also started posting more things that give me a gut town feel. I'm probably going to have to just evaluate him better later.
The fact that multiple people have any inkling of suspicion towards shadow is still deeply confusing and distressing.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I think this is fair, but is typical of me on d1. It's relatively rare for me to get a scumread on d1 that I'm confident enough on to want to try to steer the conversation. Much more common is for me to get a townread that I'm confident enough to try to steer the conversation on, which you can probably see is the case with eager and to some extent shadow.Zoronos wrote:Now, on Implosion. He's been thin all game; that is, my general impression is that he doesn't do a lot to try and steer the conversation. He comments on this, but doesn't push. I am suspicious of anyone willing to just float along.
I have a similar opinion wrt eager's mention of nolynching as a possibility as those who have weighed in, it really just doesn't make any sense at all. It could be a scum ploy but why the hell would he do it as scum, but also why the hell would he say it as town, etc. Not ultimately super meaningful I think.
On the other hand, I hate to beat a dead horse of almost-everything-boring-says-sounds-scummy but I really dislike boring's reaction... again.
This is such an incredibly tepid response for someone who has been pushing eager so consistently since shadow claimed. Compare penguin's reaction, and Zoronos's reaction, and even nn who remarks that it's worth looking at his old games based on this. boring's reaction just reeks of scum who doesn't know how people are going to react and wants to test the waters before committing to saying something like "oh my god, only scum would possibly suggest a no lynch, can we please lynch him already." Which I would expect from town-boring here (obviously not in those words but etc).boring wrote:So, rather than lynching scum (or at the very least learning from a town flip), you're suggesting we give them a free night kill, and start this mess up again tomorrow? We're better off lynching today. Even if it turns out to be me (though I'd hardly call that "plan A").
That paragraph from boring does not read like town talking to their top scumread. It does not read like town with a strong investment in lynching the person they are talking to. I could buy it as town talking to someone that they're trying to make up their mind on. But I can't buy it as town talking to their top scumread. It just sounds like detached, rehearsed advice.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Not gonna respond to everything boring said but:
This is a lie; nothing in your post implies that his idea was scummy, only that it was a bad idea. Either this is a lie or boring is heavily overestimating how much sentiment she put into that post.I made it pretty clear I found his idea scummy
For reference:
This is not calling his idea scummy, it's calling it bad and giving him advice, as I said.So, rather than lynching scum (or at the very least learning from a town flip), you're suggesting we give them a free night kill, and start this mess up again tomorrow? We're better off lynching today. Even if it turns out to be me (though I'd hardly call that "plan A").-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I'm so glad to see that you being wrong about something that you were literally 100% sure of has so caused you to even take one second to reconsider any of your thoughts on the gameShadow wrote:That's a weird kill.
Definitely made to frame boring.
This is not reason to townread her... nor is it reason to attribute the Maria kill to "definitely a frame on boring." It's a reason to have boring as null.Shadow wrote:Yes. But I haven't seen anything scummy from her to make me think she is scum. She believed my claim holy hell she must be mafia. No, it doesn't work like that.
I absolutely fucking would have for all of the goddamn reasons I said yesterday... I was very confident you were town so it's not like you had access to any information that I wasn't at least pretty confident of that had any implication on eager's alignment. And we could have just not mislynched him at all... which would have been my preferred world.Shadow wrote:I caused the day 1 mislynch?
Only scum should be disappointed after the day 1 lynch. If that had happened today or tomorrow. It would have been horrible for us.
Don't you dare tell me that you would have believed Eager's claim in my position.
I'm legitimately going to stop interacting with shadow unless he can tone down his ego because it just feels entirely unproductive like i'm beating my head against a brick wall. And it's also making me kind of angry.-
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In post 1556, Shadow_step wrote:Town doesn't react the way he did to my claim.In post 1541, podoboq wrote:-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I'm curious what you mean by this; it seems like it could mean pretty much anything. My best guess is that you mean to say that I brought up a wagon on you as a counterwagon to eagerSnake? And it sounds like you're trying to imply that that was a scummy thing to do? Which I find deeply confusing. So I'd like some clarification.@Prism - You were after implosion yesterday. His tunnel timing me seems less than a coincidence,
I'd also like some clarification on how you (seemingly, I may be misinterpreting things here) are simultaneously criticizing me for tunneling you on d1 and for not having strong reads on d1.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Take this with a grain of salt because there's definitely a grain or two in there from my current mood: generally, shadow's reasoning for me being scum feels to me like it amounts to "I wasn't right yesterday, so no townie can POSSIBLY have been right yesterday."
which is, once again, projecting his feelings that eager was necessary to lynch at some point on to the whole game... I honestly would have loved to take both of them to endgame. I mentioned eager as one of my strongest townreads and fought his wagon for as long as it seemed like it would have any chance of actually doing anything for a reason. And it's honestly insulting for shadow to imply that there would be a point where we would "have to pl eager." I just on-principle disagree with that sentiment.
It's just absolutely infuriating to be called scum for having been correct about eagerSnake by the person who caused his lynch, won't admit that they caused his lynch, and is now continuing on to day two without even a tiny shred of humility or any indication that he's re-evaluating his view of the game in light of his by far strongest scumread flipping town. And yet he's still probably town.
Which is just infuriating.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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In other news I'm very curious to hear a lot from Grendel on boring after this...I was going to look more into boring since she is the leading wagon, but I feel like Snake is much scummier atm.Well, I'll look into Boring too, but many of your posts have been down right manipulative.If Snake does flip town I will advocate lynching boring tomorrow.
For those not seeing what I am here: it looks really very waffly. I question grendel having this consistent attitude near the end of the day of "I'll get to boring later."Yeah i'll look into boring. I was really hoping that Eager would be an open shut case, but I'm beginning to think its not.-
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eager and you and... me i assume and... who else? d4 lylo would (assuming 1 kill per night) have 5 people. The answer to this entirely depends on what happens between now and then and who those other people are, although it seems like it would be moot since you were never even willing to consider the hint of a possibility that eager would be town, so if you were both town here my vote wouldn't matterIn post 1581, Shadow_step wrote:Okay so we are in day 4 lylo, with both Eager and I alive. Who do you lynch ?
If you're making the argument that bringing you both as town to LYLO loses us the game because you'll auto-vote eager, then
1) you're missing the fucking point of YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE HAD EAGER 100% AS SCUM.
2) that rests on shaky logic to begin with because we would have had one extra lynch opportunity that wasn't on eager before then, and so we'd be less likely to be in a bad situation in the first place.-
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They also believe them less readily because lynching a townie who is claiming their role is a perfectly valid way to get a mislynch... scum don't actually believe or disbelieve claims, they simply choose which to portray, and there are good reasons for scum to portray either belief or disbelief of a true claim, which are basically the same as their reasons to portray belief or disbelief of any player in the game.Scum believe claims more readily than town because they know that town generally don't have any motivation to lie.
It really wasn't. As far as I can tell, you're still viewing the game through rose-tinted glasses. You still think eager was obvious scum, and you aren't looking at my reasons for thinking he was town through an objective lens, you're looking at them through the bias that eager was obvious scum, so it's unlikely that a townie could have been right on him.Your reason to believe that we both were town ascetics was some what far fetched.
What about maria's reasons? Were they far-fetched? What about eager's reasons? If yes then your argument loses a leg because we suddenly have multiple examples where town can have reasons for thinking eager was town that you view as far-fetched; if no then it loses an arm because there were good reasons to think that eager was town (although you can still view my reasons as far-fetched, though at that point I'd simply disagree).-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
- Polymath
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I agree that PP's end of the day yesterday isbadbut I don't think it's all that scummy, maybe a bit. He mostly just looks disengaged to me, and that's null. I still think his early game was very townish.
@Grendel, I can somewhat see boring's read change as being not cautious enough for scum. I don't think that's nearly enough of a point in her favor to balance out all of the things that I've found scummy from her, a couple of which you paraphrased quite nicely.
I question this characterization of my play yesterday. I felt like I was beating a dead horse essentially writing essays on how every post she made scummy.Zoronos wrote:However, he doesn't spend a lot of time actually prosecuting his scum read on Boring (that's where his vote was),-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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@dierfire: last think I see you say about boring is that you've read up on her but don't find anything really alignment indicative. What do you think of her after the eager+maria townflips, and/or why don't you agree with my points on her?
@LUV: can you elaborate on why you disagree with the case on boring? Can you elaborate on your null-scum read on prism, and on your scumread of penguin (is it just lingering things from long ago, or is it more strongly based on his recent posting)?-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
- Polymath
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