Open 670: Near Vanilla (Over)

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VOTE: Hawk

He asked for a wagon on him so I'm obliging.

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You spelt Hawk wrong.

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I did what now?

Your vote seemed too considered. Which could mean that you wanted either to avoid being on a town wagon or to switch attention away from a scum wagon. Or it could mean that you wanted to see who reacted to your vote. Your comment suggests it probably wasn't the second one.

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Music Box - Voted on Hawk because his earlier vote seemed "considered", which is a really weak explanation without some backup, ESPECIALLY whilst in RVS.

Course it's weak. That's more or less par for the course for a p2 vote when we're still just moving out of rvs. The original rvs wagon had lost momentum due to the replacement and Hawk's avoidance of the wagon made me curious so I decided to give him a poke to see what came of it. Not sure what you mean about backup as I explained what led to the vote.

Why "ESPECIALLY whilst in RVS"? Do you expect

stronger

reasons in rvs than later?

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I didn't want to be on that wagon cause I didn't want to play this game apart of an early wagon?

The value of a wagon isn't just pressure on the wagonee, it's also in looking at what people do around it.

At music box. What do you think about LUV's naked vote? What about Nebula?

I have no problem with naked votes if they're followed up later. Nebula seems ok so far. I disagree with your claim that there was a contradiction in his post.

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I'm voting for Music Box because her tone feels forced and I didn't like how she misrepresented Hawk.

For the first part, you're voting me for the same reason as I voted Hawk? What do you think of the tone of Hawk's 12? For the second part, what did I misrep?

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@Musicbox. So you'd rather I just sheep the wagon vote when literally 4 people had commented yet? (It was just me, BBT, Lowell who hasn't said anything since, and Magna) I mean sure watching how everyone else played around that wagon would have been interesting but I just chose to spread the votes instead.

And what did you gain from that?

41 and 47 look like town to me. I think he is genuinely trying to figure nebula out, and not trying to do so for the looks or to trap them. That was the most town like interaction I had looked at so far.

What about the contradiction he claimed to have found in nebula's post?

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No? I don't understand what you're getting at in regards to why I voted for you.

Hawk's tone in 12 doesn't make me feel a way. You said that Hawk asked for a wagon.

I said of his, "seemed too considered"; you said of mine, "feels forced ". That's what I meant by the same reason. And Hawk didn't literally ask for a wagon. His post just prompted me to decide to start a wagon on him to help me sort out whether he had a town motive.

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lol at nebula. I was enjoying your delightfully well-written English.

@ Sesq: Any response to my 96?

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Why the delayed response to that?

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Engagement from you, who took my RVS vote for a bit more than that. (I can see the effort here it doesn't) gives me a softer townlean on you. Conversation with LUV and Magna also kinda came from my actions. I'm town leaning Magna for legitimate attempts to scumhunt.

And we got people mindlessly Sheeping (Ala Lowell) Who hasn't contributed to much but some 1 to 2 sentence answers to some questions and "Agree" when referencing Magna going over my ISO.

So some soft townleans and a scumlean so far from what I've done. I mean I'm sure this will all be more insightful as the day goes on but it's just how I chose to start the game?

It was the question of whether you were seeking engagement or avoidance that I was for looking for an answer to earlier when I voted you. Your first response gave me the feeling that it wasn't engagement but I think I've seen enough now to be satisfied with a town read on you.

UNVOTE: Hawk

Why did you choose to engage me rather than throw and RVS vote? Why not engage Nebula who was being Wagon'd or someone else?

The impetus on the wagon had died and your vote and comment intrigued me. The other posts there all looked like normal rvs stuff.

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For the second time of asking:

@ Sesq: Any response to my 96?

@ Toto: Did you miss my 172? I don't think you replied to my 127 either.


I'll look at some of Nebula/Penguin's other games in the morning to see if he's made similar comments to the "bad lynch" thing before. His p1 post didn't seem like a softclaim to me.

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That doesn't answer my questions:

Not sure what you mean about backup as I explained what led to the vote.

Why "ESPECIALLY whilst in RVS"? Do you expect stronger reasons in rvs than later?

Can you explain what you meant by these?

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Why the delayed response to that?

I thought it was a joke the first time.

What changed your mind? The way you came out with that exclamation looked like you were seeing the comment for the first time, which I didn't think you could have been. It felt false.

See I would buy that if it wasn't for your word choice.

I don't get it.


I don't want to lynch nebula toDay.

VOTE: Sesq

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Because I think he's scum.

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So why remark on my 'fake' push on him?

Why not? There's more than one scum.

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Yet half a day later you were voting alongside him again.

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The word obliging. It completely changed the tone, voice, attitude, and imagery of your statement. It also made me think you thought Hawk was asking for a wagon.

Changed it from what? It was just a figure of speech. A way of saying that my vote was a response to my curiosity about his post, explained in 50.

Also are you guys even suggesting scum like to vote together? I can see this from MB but Hikaro, really?

Why wouldn't they do that sometimes? You seem to be pushing some quite narrow ideas of what scum and town would do.

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Why BBT?

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Music Box - I thought he was voting me as a counter to nebula but

seems to think I'm scum with again,

seemingly no reason behind it.

What did you mean to say in the bolded bit?

As for reason, you've been evasive in your responses to me for a start; 84 seemed too defensive and too careful about your vote for Toto, but without actually saying why you voted him; 129 using the 'look, he did it too' diversion tactic. Not going to write out a full case as I think most of it has already been covered in the thread.

And there's a difference between him voting me as a counter to neb (but placing me at null or something) and voting me for being scum.

I wouldn't have voted you if I had you as null. Not unless we were close to deadline, which we aren't.

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I'd think you'd be more concerned about who I'm voting today instead of tomorrow

I've already made my decision on nebula so wasn't so interested in that. But looking back I see you haven't explained why you're voting him. So why?

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Hiraki has already said why he's townreading Nebula and Nydus.

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I remember him saying more about nebula, although that may have been just repeating the same thing. I'm just getting a bad feeling about this current push on him.

i dont think SESQ is scum...... wagon speed too fast,, also she seems to come from a townie place

You could say the same about the wagon on Nebula. They grew in parallel with each other. Why did Sesq's wagon seem different?

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cos when i posted that nebs wagon was smaller,, KAINTGEPS

When you posted that, the wagons were exactly the same as they are now.

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And on the specifics of his behavior, while I am willing to go into open discussion about things and be 100% honest, nebula seems to be dodgy and avoidant and declared to stop speaking about Toto and I. The associations between him and Hiraki also seem to be strongly pointing to them being scum together, mainly Hiraki's lack of explaining for his strong townread (and then later refusing to go into it more for "overexplaining", despite the fact he didn't do jack shit.)

I do realize I'm sounding the same horn with this post but I think it's good to explain to people why I sit where I do.

Nebula's decision to stop speaking about Toto and you was actually a town point for him. And he did chip in again when he thought it right to do so.

Why are you getting a bad feeling?

I'm not exactly sure. It was an impression I got from reading the last several pages in one go. I think it was the feeling that people were realising that the Nebula wagon had stalled and were trying to find an alternative. I'll look at that more closely tomorrow; or more probably Monday as I might not have time to concentrate on this on Sunday.

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I haven't had time to look at this today. I'll catch up tomorrow.

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If Sesq is objectively scummy, why not put your vote down? I think there is quite a bit of resistance from the wagon given it's been between L-2 and L-3 for the better part of D1. Normally we would have at least run her up to L-1 by now.

Toto did put Sesq to L-1 for a couple of hours before starting the wagon on Hiraki. I haven't managed to follow up that feeling I had about that wagon yet.

Just going to catch up with the last 8 pages now.

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See neb? This is what opportunistic looks like.

Getting some bad vibes with these two.

This sequence of posting makes Sesq town for me.

He votes Nebula after their discussion. Soon after, both Kain and Toto jump on the Nebula wagon. Now, the way I see it is like this. Sesq!Scum just sits back and enjoys the growing wagon on the person he is voting. It's exactly what he would have been hoping would happen when he voted.

However, he doesn't do this. Instead, he questions

both

people who just jumped on the Nebula wagon with him - it's a town paranoia of 'Woah, why did they both just join so quickly'. Scum don't pick up on things like that, unless Sesq/Nebula are both scum - and I'm like 95% sure they're not.

Sesq voters should move swiftly over to Lowell.

Thanks.

Yet she stayed on the wagon herself. Wouldn't town have backed off after being sheeped like that?

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I think it is important to note that looking at Sesq versus Nebula one of those players has been investigating multiple votes for scum reads while the other has set weakly on a wagon most of the day.

I don't think that's a fair comparison. Nebula has voted three different players, in each case being the first to vote them, and Sesq has voted four, but two of those were sheeping Toto.

Not sure about Lowell. Slips and mixing up games happen, but 1017 feels odd. Why didn't he just glance at his ISO before posting? I think scum would be more careful to check but this feels almost deliberate. Am I reading too much into it?

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Nebula voted Sesq at 133. He OMGUSed me at 346 and retracted it at 403. So Nebula hasn’t voted “three different players”. And no, he doesn’t get credit for Hellfire’s RVS vote.

Oops! Yep, you're right about that first vote being HM's, not Nebula's. My notes let me down there. But he certainly didn't

retract

that scumread on you; just moved his vote back to Sesq.

Meanwhile Sesq has voted Toto (84), Nebula (144), Elena (765), Hiraki (783), and Nebula again (963). Every vote move after his first Nebula vote as been while she is either the Top or Second wagon. Check through the Vote Counts yourself if you like.

Yep, four different players like I said, two of which were sheeping Toto. (That's three sheep votes if you include following Toto back onto Nebula, which I didn't earlier.) What was your point here?

Want to fence-sit on Lowell harder? So you think he “went back to review his ISO” in this game as Town and came up with a player not in this game as a Top scum pick as Town? Really?

Yes, I'm fence-sitting here. Maybe slightly on the town side of the fence. Are you saying he is more likely to make that mistake as scum? I don't think so. It's more likely to be non-alignment indicative. I just had a bad vibe from his post.

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I haven't been able to get to this today but I should have plenty of time for it tomorrow.

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1) I didn't see him having votes at all I voted and then went back to work I came back and Lowell was lynched to my shock

So you dropped a vote close to deadline without even checking the gamestate?

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Sticking with this for now:

VOTE: Sesq

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I don't disagree; but, why?

I gave my initial reasons in 501. Since then the wagon stalling while opponents of it were trying to find a viable counterwagon made me more certain.


1243 is bad. Why the mockery?

HAHAHHAHAHAHAAAHAHHAHHA This is absolutely a game of logic, and your lack of it will get you thoroughly lynched by me. You have no logical reason to scumread me. You have admitted it and it will be well-known.

Since when has lack of logic been a scumtell? In fact, earlier you seemed to favour gut over logic when you said to Nebula in 132: "In terms of logic you do present good points with rather unfortunate framing, but my gut is still going off like mad."

I've said that Magna pushed for a Lowell lynch because he thought Lowell was scummiest-looking. Not implausible.

Also, I find it interesting you're describing us as SvT.

Also, what you said was an argument from popularity, as your context was in that because people agreed with you on me being scum, that means I'm scum, which is always a stupid argument. Also, you never made any point about No-lynch. Ever. This is out of nowhere.

Why do you find it interesting that Nebula's describing the two of you as SvT?
And why are you saying that thing about no-lynch? I feel like you were trying to start an argument there, because all Nebula seemed to be implying was that if it wasn't for the derailment to Lowell, you would have been lynched by default.

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I've said that Magna pushed for a Lowell lynch because he thought Lowell was scummiest-looking. Not implausible.

Also, I find it interesting you're describing us as SvT.

Also, what you said was an argument from popularity, as your context was in that because people agreed with you on me being scum, that means I'm scum, which is always a stupid argument. Also, you never made any point about No-lynch. Ever. This is out of nowhere.

Why do you find it interesting that Nebula's describing the two of you as SvT?
And why are you saying that thing about no-lynch? I feel like you were trying to start an argument there, because all Nebula seemed to be implying was that if it wasn't for the derailment to Lowell, you would have been lynched by default.

As for my interest in him describing it as SvT, it's more of a "lol hes obvscum" thing more than any constructive observation. As for no-lynch, I don't think it would ever have won, and as for my wagon vs. Neb's, I think either of us could have been lynched and I really don't care too much now.

It sounded more like you were trying to suggest he had made a slip of some kind, and are now backing down on that. And you dodged my question about why you made a point of saying that thing about no-lynch.

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It's amazing how I was barely talked about at all day 1 and now I'm the rage

I had a town lean on you Day 1, but I didn't like the way you claimed not to be around during the Lowell lynch, and then when called on that you said you'd just voted without checking anything.

I don't see why this defense is good tho. If you were TRing Sesq why vote MoL instead of Nebula as possible especially since you SR neb. Are you SRING Neb solely from today then?

Elena was already voting Nebula and moved her vote off Neb to vote Magna.

Actually, if we pulled together people who were split amongst you and hiraki, and had a few less people rarely active, we could have had a lynch on you going.

Those votes weren't split. They were all on Nebula, all but one moved to Hiraki, then they all moved back to Nebula.

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I did look before posting that. There was no one on Hiraki that hadn't previously voted Neb and didn't move straight back to Neb after Hiraki's wagon collapsed.


As for the no lynch thing, it was you who brought that up, but in an odd way, like you were trying to imply that Neb was saying it but at the same time saying he hadn't. It didn't make sense.

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Huh? Why ask that when you just quoted it in your last post? It was in 1243.

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That's a misrep of what he was saying (quoted below). It's clear to me that he was speaking in general terms when he said no one wanted a NL, not this game in particular. You took it out of context and tried to make a thing of it.

That's why I said 1243 was bad. The whole post seemed designed to make Nebula look bad and had no substantial points in it.

"Also argument from popularity"....lulz. Just gonna say lulz. It's not an argument from popularity, it's the fact that no one (except scum) wants a NL, and history shows the leading wagon usually goes (unless derailed).

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Hey Music Box – who is scum? You seem to be doing a lot of nitpicky pointless debating with Sesq and defending of Nebula without committing to pretty much anyone else as a suspect. Why is that Town behavior?

I'm concentrating on Sesq because I believe she's most likely to be scum and I don't want her to slip off the hook. I've also got a mild scum read on Elena but I don't think she's scum with Sesq. My other reads are varying degrees of town apart from Riley, who I do need to follow up on due to her Day 1 voting, promising to vote Sesq but never actually committing then jumping on the Lowell wagon near the end. I think she has a good chance of being scum.

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And, no Toto, I was not softing D1

Maybe not a soft claim as such, but the only other time that I could find you making a similar comment was in a game where you were a cop. That's really the main reason I was townreading you.

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VOTE: Magna

Sesq for one partner. I think Riley might be the other based on her voting.

... and MB has been lurking the whole game.

Not lurking. I just can't post as often as some of you seem to be able to.

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That depends on what you call content.


What did you mean when you referred to Hap's "previous aliases"?

I think I know why he was an alt now.

Since Nebula would have decided to use the alt before he got his role PM, I don't see how this is relevant.

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Yes, it's quite likely, and I think it might be Riley in both cases. During Day 1 she was pushing both main wagons but voting neither for most of the time, before putting Lowell to L-1, and then Day 2 she again didn't commit until putting Nebula to L-2 (although I think she wasn't around so much that Day).

Sesq is also on the second wagon but I suspect it's either/or, not both of them together.

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Congrats!


And good point. Toto's name should be in orange there.

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I remember thinking that but I need to go back and find out why.

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It was posts like 306, 310, 884 that made me think they weren't partners when I originally read them and it was those rather than the later posts that I was thinking of when I wrote that. But there's other posts like 885 that could be either coaching or buddying so they could just have been distancing.


But while going through their ISO's to check that I spotted this:

Riley Cake - acts in a way that's kind of... well, an act. Probably someone's alt, I don't really care.

She's a friend on Discord, me and a few others told her about this place. I don't want to say anymore as I don't want game stuff ending up there at all.

In the first quote Sesq is trying to disassociate herself from Riley. In the second she admits knowing her. I don't see any reason for her to do the first unless they are both scum.

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But if she scumread you why didn't she vote you instead of just promising to?

As for the Lowell flash wagon, I think we should move back to Neb, as I don't feel super confident on Lowell, but I would be willing to compromise.

This isn't "refusing to get on Lowell's wagon". If anything it's giving slight encouragement to it. And in 1139 you were "definitely leaning" scum on him. You said you were uncomfortable with it but I didn't see any refusal.


VOTE: Sesq

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Also, even if this is a good point on her, how does that make me scum?

It doesn't necessarily. That part was more about Riley than you.

What else would "I don't feel comfortable with this, everyone should move over to nebula" mean? If I were scum, what reason would I have not to go on Lowell's wagon?

Maybe you thought it would look town? Or were still hoping for a Nebula lynch? I don't know what was in your mind there but to me it looked like you were nudging the wagon along.

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@Toto and MB

If part of the reason you think Sesq is mafia is an association with Riley, shouldn't you guys be voting Riley?

My scumread on Sesq isn't based on the association with Riley.

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@ Hiraki: I'm trying to work out why you switched to scumreading Hawk, from your links in 1558, and as far as I can make out it was because of his switch to calling to calling Nebula town in 1334. Is that right?

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MUSIC BOX AND TOTO!!! Dontcha think it's wayyyy to early to say I'm scum because i'm partners with Sesq when Sesqy hasn't even flipped yet?? THAT'S JUST SILLY!!! You'll find yourself barking up the wrong three!!!!

See 1532. My read on you wasn't based on a link with Sesq.

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Elena was voting Magna all Day 2. Also if Sesq is scum I don't think Elena could be her partner, based on Day 1 interactions..

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@ Hiraki: I'm trying to work out why you switched to scumreading Hawk, from your links in 1558, and as far as I can make out it was because of his switch to calling to calling Nebula town in 1334. Is that right?

Correct - also note that ISO 63 is Hawk flipflopping for strange reasons onto the Nebulla wagon during D1. With the Nebula flip, it doesn't look pretty.

Where did Hawk flipflop on Neb Day 1? Your ISO 63 doesn't seem to relate to that. His read on Neb looked more like natural read progression to me. It was his jump on and off your wagon that bothered me more there.

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First, is it possible that scum are just buddying me in order to try to get me lynched? Riley is smarter than she seems, I know her outside of this game.

Who apart from Riley are you saying is buddying you? And how would buddying you help to get you lynched?

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When I said scum here I was referring to Magna and Riley, and it seems pretty obvious why, because if it looks like there's an associative tell there you're going to vote for it (me on riley)

I thought you were claiming multiple scum were buddying you toDay, that's why I asked.

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Sesq was only at L-1 for two hours from when Toto voted her in 442 to when he moved his vote to Hiraki in 459.

Why did you keep flipping between Riley is partnered with Sesq and not. Particularly considering this back and forth back and forth in a 17 post timeframe..

I already explained this in 1537, which you quoted, after Toto asked me about it. There was no back and forth. I originally thought that they weren't partners but by the time I wrote 1474, echoed in 1520, I thought they might be.

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Town. I was just trying to sort his 1532 where he says either/or but probably not both because surrounding it he seems to think partners is likely. Am I misreading MB?

Firstly, I said "might be", not "likely". My reads on the pair were originally independent of each other. Secondly, as I already said, that was from memory of my earlier read.

I remember thinking that

but I need to go back and find out why.

It was posts like 306, 310, 884 that made me think they weren't partners when I originally read them and

it was those rather than the later posts that I was thinking of when I wrote that

. But there's other posts like 885 that could be either coaching or buddying so they could just have been distancing.

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Both Music and Hikari had just gone from not voting to voting you one post count prior. I don't think they're scum otherwise the 3rd non Magna scum buddy would have just lynched you. (aka Riley since she did say she would hammer, Elena stays on Nebula and then switches to Magna as her next change of vote, and if I was scum I could have just sheeped Toto since I was town reading him early game and as scum if you were both town I shouldn't have cared which way it went.)

This assumes that the people not on the wagon were actually around to post during that 2 hour window Sesq was at L-1. Looking at the time of day that happened it's possible they weren't.

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I'd rather stick with lynching Sesq as I'm more certain there but if we can't then I'm prepared to switch to Riley.

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Also, if it flips Red, someone must have bussed Sesq at some point. So think about that too. (i.e. Hiraki / MB)

You mean one of the two who've been most consistent in wanting her lynched the whole game?

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VOTE: No lynch

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Riley is still my top FoS, followed by Hawk. Only problem with them being the scumpair is their Day 4 play which rather rules it out for me.

I'll check out the other possible pairings later.

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I've been through the ISOs looking at the possible pairings. Magna was voting both Hawk and Hiraki Day 1, but the Hawk wagon was earlier in the Day so probably not so significant. Day 4 Hawk was voted by all the others, Hap being first to quit the wagon and move back to Sesq.

Most Likely: Hap/Riley

Next most likely: Hiraki/Riley, Hap/Hiraki

Less likely: Hap/Hawk

Unlikely: Hawk/Hiraki, Hawk/Riley

All this tells me is that Hawk is more likely to be town. I'm townreading both Hap and Hiraki but at least one of them must be scum by poe.

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Not discounting anything. I was just trying to get things clear in my own mind. I was hoping to get a more definitive result, which I didn't but the timing of the votes mean that the last two options are unlikely.

Riley is still my top scum read so unless anyone's got a really good reason why not, that's where my vote's going today.

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I'll have to check back on my notes for that but I don't think I'm wrong on both you and Hiraki so it must be Riley.

VOTE: Riley

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Good game all.

Thanks to Creature for modding it!