Newbie 1718 [Game Over!] Mafia
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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I know it's still early in RVS, but does something about this vote seem deliberate to anyone else?
(mafia scum doesn't have a [hr] so just imagine this is a nice, clean horizontal rule)
House, as the IC, do you have a private thread in which you comment on us newbies' plays to give constructive criticism? I noticed that a couple of the ICs from the games I read did that, but not all of them did.
Also, if you're lynched early into the game (despite my comment i'm that suspicious of your move), are you still allowed to provide help with theory questions about the game, so as long as you don't provide gamebreaking information? Because if not, it seems like there's a penalty to us accusing you too early in the game if you could help newer players out.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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I gotta stop writing messages while in a hurry, I've made three typos this game already... :KIn post 11, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:I know it's still early in RVS, but does something about this vote seem deliberate to anyone else?
(mafia scum doesn't have a [hr] so just imagine this is a nice, clean horizontal rule)
House, as the IC, do you have a private thread in which you comment on us newbies' plays to give constructive criticism? I noticed that a couple of the ICs from the games I read did that, but not all of them did.
Also, if you're lynched early into the game (despite my comment i'mnotsuspicious of your move), are you still allowed to provide help with theory questions about the game, so as long as you don't provide gamebreaking information? Because if not, it seems like there's a penalty to us accusing you too early in the game if you could help newer players out.
also sorry for not snipping that quote, i'm on my phone-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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I see my mistake, I just read a very long (and constructive) mod pt. For some reason I was under the impression that it was an IC who wrote it. Definitely not the same thing!In post 13, House wrote:I have never heard of an IC PT, so I'm asking the mod for clarification on the ability to post in there once dead. I highly doubt it, though.
But I do wonder about the design decision behind the possibility of ICs dying early. Was the idea that by the end of D1, players would be able to go without their IC if they were lynched or NK'd? I guess that bridge'll be crossed when we get there.
Oh, of course not. I was just wondering what would happen theoretically.In post 13, House wrote: That said, you should not want to lynch ANYONE frivolously, not just the IC. If I'm scum, I need to swing just like anyone else.
It gets screwed up on my phone, sadly. But it works fine on my computer!In post 13, House wrote:Also, you can quote a partial post by highlighting the text you want to quote and clicking the quote button.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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Even in RVS, nothing is truly random. By deliberate I meant that there was some sort of alignment-related motivation behind it, be it town or mafia. Obviously it's not enough to build a case, but I think it's interesting that someone put a random vote on someone before seeing how they react.In post 17, Harlii wrote:
Is your meaning by "deliberate" because I also voted for Smurphinator? I'm not sure what else you could mean by it. If so, I can see your point, though I'm not sure if that really provides that much information yet, given that it's still RVS (I think). It's certainly something to be noted.In post 11, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:I know it's still early in RVS, but does something about this vote seem deliberate to anyone else?
Maybe that's just my tendency to overanalyze things, especially when there's nothing to make a strong case with yet. I mostly pointed it out because I'm not even sure if it could be read as town or mafia.
Of course, I would not be surprised if itHouse wrote: It IS deliberate.
I chose that person to vote because they used 'ph' instead of 'f' in their name.
Hence, not smurftastic.wasa random vote. It's just that if I still hadn't casted a vote, I most likely would have picked a person no one else voted for unless their reaction to being voted for made me suspicious.
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I'm also not sure how I feel about makesnosense's vote or how House moved his vote.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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I should clarify, there's nothing interesting about putting a random vote on someone who didn't react. I meant it's interesting to put asecondvote on someone before they acknowledge the first, in case it wasn't clear from context.
This is what I assumed, and I'm going to have to agree about your suspicion.In post 23, House wrote:
I moved my vote because my first vote was rvs and my second is based on suspicion.In post 22, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:I'm also not sure how I feel about makesnosense's vote or how House moved his vote.It justmakes no sense.
Although I should also point out that I didn't intend to cast any sort of suspicion onto you, especially because I can see town-motivated reasons to try to start an RVS-bandwagon (if you can call it that).-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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Personally, I dislike makesnosense's vote because House didn't even get the chance to clarify that he made a RVS vote that was tangential to mine.
A reason would have been nice, but during RVS I'd be willing to let a move like that slideifhe had voted for literally anyone other than House. Without a joke reason, I'd be incredibly skeptical of MNS if it tried to say it was an RVS vote.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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Ebwop, oops, i don't know how one messes up that badlyIn post 30, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:Personally, I dislike makesnosense's vote because House didn't even get the chance to clarify that he made a RVS vote that was tangential tomineHarlii's.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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Wow, the juicy discourse ends as soon as I wake up. I'll most likely post a more detailed post later, but at the moment, I'm not exactly a big fan of RC's entrance. Everyone else seems OK, and even then I don't really have much of a reason to even suspect him. I definitely want to wait to hear RC's logic behind his initial vote, but with him moving it so quickly I don't think it'll be convincing. Keeping my vote where it is until later.
Do any of the other newbies want to join me for a meta-read of House and RC? I'm probably going to start over the weekend (i.e., after finals), but I think for us, understanding where they're coming from would definitely be useful. There really seems to be something personal with RC's vote.
Final thoughts, I actually really hate that I'm the universal townread this game, since my chances of being nightkilled go up so quickly. With the whole fiasco in setting up 1715, I waited a while to get into this game. I guess that's life though.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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I'm not caught up since my last post, but I'm not even sure if the post I've been working on all day is useful.
I'm trying to figure out the argument given against House (i.e., the initial vote of VC), but now that Doctor Pepper is the only person on that wagon, I'm not sure how useful it'll be. I still would like to know RC's train of thought at the time, and I guess that's why I'm just trying to figure it out on my own.
The post is a really long wall, too.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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Under the spoiler tags, I have a post-by-post analysis of the suspicion directed towards House, because I'm honestly still unsure about why people are legitimately suspecting House. Like I said before, it's kind of dying out, but I feel as though the explanation behind it was lacking, so I'm going to try to amke a little sense out of it. There's also some explanation about my play from around RVS because it centered around House, but I'm also going to summarize the spoiler tag because I think you guys would prefer analysis over summary.
Spoiler: A post-by-post summary of the case vs. House
It seems that the potential arguments versus House are mostly based on:
- A: Me questioning whether House's first vote was random or intentional.
B: He reacted to MNS voting him without a reason, which looks jumpy and overly defensive.
C: House's reasoning for voting MNS was that he performed an anti-town action, which isn't a valid reason to vote because even town members do anti-town things.
D: House pushed for a bandwagon onto RC by disagreeing with their actions.
butHouse. B I disagree with, I felt he was criticizing his anti-town behavior, not defending himself. C is a fairly reasonable argument, but I think the vote on MNS is well-placed. D is just wrong.
Now, you might not have asked for it, but here it is: The post 11/12 explanation! This might end up being redundant with what I wrote in the spoiler but just roll with me here.
My "weird buddying with House" in constantly saying that I was not suspecting him was to make sure this isn't how my post is viewed. But then why would I want to ask the question I posed in post 11/12? Simple!In post 68, Racer64 wrote:Hello, sorry for not being here most of yesterday. I had a funeral to attend, and then I couldn't get to my computer room last night due to some guests we have. I've adjusted my schedule, so I should be more active. I would however like to announce a V/LA for Saturday and Sunday. I have an airsoft game all Saturday, and on Sunday I'm not sure where our guests will want to go. With that out of the way, here's my current read on the situation.
This really rubs me the wrong way. It seems like Giga's trying to cast suspicion on House merely for being the second to vote on Smurf. Yet that's entirely what one would expect given the random nature of the RVS stage.In post 11, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:I know it's still early in RVS, but does something about this vote seem deliberate to anyone else?
I wanted to see how quickly people agree or disagree with the post, and whether or not they think it's questioning or suspicion. I was genuinely curious as to whether or not it was a random vote, but ultimately I don't think it would have mattered. I do like that it helped us get out of RVS fast and onto actual discussion (ending at post #20 is pretty good, right?), but I think it ultimately backfired on me and makes me much more confusing to understand.
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This post was pretty long and honestly I'm worried that it's confusing. If anyone needs clarification on anything I wrote I'll be happy to explain it again. I spent way too long with this post and usually when I take a long time writing something it just becomes unnecessarily long and difficult to follow.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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The popular scumtell with lurking is usually opportunistic lurking, or lurking for the sake of avoiding the need to defend yourself. I think Smurf just hasn't logged into MafiaScum the past day or two.In post 81, Racer64 wrote:Hence why I only put Smurf at [-1]. On my scale that's still neutral, and once they post, that will change. However (and correct me if I'm wrong), this is also a soft indicator of a mafia member. Mafia needs to deprive town of as much info as possible. The less one posts, the less their posts are scrutinized (up to a point). In conclusion, the [-1] is just a placeholder, nothing more.
I think tomorrow I'm going to post reads of my own. I spent way too much time today on that one post and I need to catch up for the last real day of school, haha.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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Reading Foe's ISO, this is pretty much untrue. Foedufafa, as RC is on V/LA, didn't getDoctorPepper wrote:I will get to this game soon, but I will say foe is suspicious af for latching on to any wagon picking up steam and getting off them once the heat is offoffthe wagon, he simply changed his vote from a vote to a FOS. That seems pretty normal, especially considering that half of the active players have also applied a pressure vote onto makesnosense at some point (me, House, Harlii, and Foe. 4/7!). I don't see Foe as opportunistic at all, especially because getting to L-2 is a pretty important goal in terms of discussion.
By the by, that does mean thatmakes no sense is at L-2. Please don't vote for him any more, because otherwise he could be quick-hammered!
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Will post my reads after school, I only have 10 minutes of class left and that's not enough time to write.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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OMGUS, especially in Day 1, is not really that scummy imo. It's crappy reasoning, especially late game, but that's about it. I think that House's argument in that it was anti-town behavior was pretty valid, and he's even off of that wagon by now because there're scummier people. If anything, the fact he's on Racer now kind of shows me that he's not tunneling or looking for even a lynch, as with his vote, we'd be at L-1 and ready to hammer. Thank god we're not, btw.In post 97, makesnosense wrote: @foe and giga:
Explanation for "Defensiveness":
* On this post, House immediately OMGUS me without even trying to understand why I'm voting him (which was really just RVS). That's what I would have expected from an IC-town. Thus, I believe he meant to play that to his alignment by threatening me to back off with a vote.
* His interaction with RC on Post 42 and Post 44 also shows high level of defensiveness over a mere suspicion on him.
All it really did was give people reasons to vote for you, so if you see that as beneficial to the town, then I don't know what to say. I don't see how making yourself look suspicious intentionally is productive.In post 97, makesnosense wrote:
I'd like to believe that my naked vote has promoted more discussion than an ordinary non-interesting reasoning that anyone whether scum or town can possibly contrive. But then again, that's a matter of personal opinion.In post 80, gigabyteTroubadour wrote: In a way, makesnosense and Harlii's reactions are polar opposites. Harlii is behaving in the most pro-town way possible by promoting critical discussion, while makesnosense acted very anti-town by making the meaning of its vote ambiguous.
Simply generating discussion is not exactly a good endgoal for a reaction test, anyway. There needs to be something that can divide town-motivation and scum-motivation in it. I could just say, "Hey guys, I'mtotallynot scum! Trust me!" and that would generate a lot of discussion. But would it be helpful? Probably not.
what the hell..................... i don't like this new bbc system.................. discusting..........Racer64 wrote:
i don't know if i'll use it since the makeshift rule has its own character, but yes that's what I was looking for...
I'm pretty pooped from finals (a lot more than I thought), so if you don't mind I'm going to give very simplistic reads...
Town
{Harlii} – Pretty much the safest townread out of the 9 of us. Harlii, while not incredibly active, writes posts that show that he's thinking independently but is willing to work with the town. Scum have to try to blend in and move with the popular opinion, and even though Harlii's currently on the main wagon (MNS), I think his reasons go beyond what other people wrote.
{Foedufafa} – I think trying to pressure RC was more of a newbie-move, which is why I'm not really looking into it. Posts #77 and 79 were pretty good, and I'm not really concerned about the fact he's also voting on the popular wagon. Especially because itismy wagon, the MNS wagon is mainly pushed by town and town-motivated reasons. Even if MNS is not today's lynch (which I think is how this day will go), it kind of helped me see how the town is divided and better surmise what everyone's motivations are.
{House, gigabyteTroubadour} – Yes, I do tend to include myself in reads in places other than the very top. I think it's useful to gauge how I think the town should be/is reading me, and I think I am around the townier side of null. Anyway, my ploy at the very beginning of the game seemed confusing and didn't end up helping that much (other than getting out of RVS which is always good). But, the goal was to see how the town would be divided about something so innocuous, and I thought it worked (until MNS clarified that it voted randomly... but still, way too coincidental).
As for House, I'm worried that I'm confusing his push for discussion and careful thought is just him playing his IC role. Were he a SE, I'd probably switch him with Foe but I'm trying to carry a little bit more caution around him because he's allowed to undermine his win con. Other than that though, I can see why people may not like how House is defending himself, but it looks like it's coming from a good place to me.
Null
{RC} – I didn't like RC's entrance, but House made a good point about how RC did behave in a townish way by changing their vote. I want to wait before making any more decisive reads though.
{Keyenpeydee} – Should be obvious by now. (Also welcome!)
Scummyish but still pretty null
{makesnosense, Racer64} – My views on MNS should probably be pretty clear by now, but they've been a bit more forgiving now. I really wanted some clarification on its views, especially considering the naked vote that I thought was made with my "suspicion" in consideration. I haven't really liked some of its other plays, but that's about it.
Racer64 iswaytoo paranoid. And I'm not saying that because I got a -2 on his read scale. Giving House, Smurphinator, and RadiantCowbells scummier leans just felt really unfair, especially considering the fact that DoctorPepper got a completely neutral score. The way I read this is that Racer64 and DoctorPepper are a scumteam, and that readlist was an attempt at trying to distance himself from his partner without outright bussing him.
Was kind of ironic to post since House suggested the same scumteam, although I get why it was brought up. I still think you're the less scummy player of the two.In post 81, Racer64 wrote:If DP were Scum!Racer's partner, S!Racer would hardly be foolish enough to put him as a true neutral read. I understand you're putting pressure on me to defend my statements.
{DoctorPepper} – Giving outright wrong reasons to accuse someone is hardly justifiable. His recent activity reminded me to move my vote over, actually, because I think the MNS wagon got about as far as it needs to. There is also nobody so far that I think could team with MNS, but Racer and DP looks like a possible team. Still not a lynch vote, I just want you to give a defense when you get the chance. Also, thank you for that last post, MNS.
UNVOTE: Makesnosense
G(lance)OS: Makesnosense(you know, just a little less than a finger of suspicion)
VOTE: DoctorPepper
Again, welcome keyenpeydee! When you get the chance, I think it'd be best if you could post your reads so we know what sort of direction you're thinking of moving.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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I was not prepared for hammering this quickly. What happens if DP flips town? Scum? I have no clue what really happens in either scenario. I'd really like to hear House's thoughts on this specifically since he's the one giving his intent to hammer.
I'd unvote to reflect on the fact that I want more time to think about this, but I don't see RC, Racer, or KNDP quickhammering, nor do I see DP self-voting. My vote stays, I guess.
We have like 10 days before the deadline, too. Is it bad to ask we use a little bit more time to think about this? We also have two (three? DP is too, right?) players in V/LA whose input could point us in another direction.
Also I'm not really going to defend against the people scumreading me because I can see why some of my plays could be viewed as scummy in retrospect. Would like to know the specifics though for future reference.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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UNVOTE: DoctorPepperIn post 139, DoctorPepper wrote:
You're flip floppy and your vote after House expressed displeasure makes me sense you feel the need to be liked and make people like you. Kinda scummy of you to vote right after the IC tells you to.In post 133, Harlii wrote:I get the distinct feeling that RC isn't going to be back to explain for a while, and I don't think I'm willing to wait that long. I'm willing to take the (not that risky, in my opinion) risk here for reasons I explained earlier. To, again, put DP in L-1:
VOTE: DoctorPepper
(House: I was willing to unvote earlier in the interests of getting more analysis from more sources, which always seems beneficial. Apologies for screwing around with my vote and such, but it's my first game and I'm still trying to figure out what I think is good play in various situations)
Also lol for the IC committing the very non IC play of intending to hammer right away, early on the day to deny town information. Jeez.
I will not claim. This is just straight up bad play. If you mislynch me this early without anything to go off but 'Defending the V/LA player' and 'basing reads off supposedly shaky stances' then so be it. I see my wagon is heavily scum motivated, and if you don;t see it well sucks for this town
House needs to convince me to bring him back to L-1. I really think I need to reanalyze my reads, I knew there was something wrong about House wanting to hammer so quickly.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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Honestly I still don't think Harlii is that suspicious, he just comes across as very new to mafia as a whole. Wishy-washy voting is normally pretty suspicious, yes, but when everyone's a newbie I think it's a bit more normal to be unsure of yourself. If anything, beingIn post 141, DoctorPepper wrote:Not claiming, but in case I get quick hammered my watch list is House, foe and Harli. Gl town.
Good for you for coming back to your sensestooconfident in your reads seems more scummy for a new player. With some experience on Harlii's side it'd be a lot different.
If this wagon has made me want to think more about my reads, I think House is the person I'd move down. I see a MNS/House scumteam as a possibility, but nothing more than that.
Maybe, but I'll have to give it more thought. This is just pretty difficult because I'm pretty much going the opposite of my initial gut feelings.DoctorPepper wrote:I guess this is kinda my fault for providing cursory glances and just making posts when I read them on my phone without double checking if what i said was correct, I'll get on this when I have more time.
For now, I think I'll have to convince you to go foe-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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Also I should add that claiming Day 1 pretty much hurts town no matter what. Claiming VT narrows down the pool of power roles for mafia to hunt down, while claiming a power role just makes you a certain target, especially if you're helpless (Doctor, Cop w/o doctor, etc). Any BP Townie claim should be seen as scummy anyway.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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House, before I decide whether or not to return to the wagon, what happens if DoctorPepperisn'tscum? Because if DP is right in that this is a scum-motivated wagon (which he can really only be right about if he's town (or if this is an elaborate bus that imo is pointless unless DP ultimately is not lynched)), pretty much all of the people I've townread are scummier. Seeing an "intent to hammer" post pretty much tells me you're ready to lynch, but I think it's way too early to consider that. I, at the very least, want to know what DP flipping either alignment means.
WeIn post 148, DoctorPepper wrote:See there are good reaction tests and there are bad ones.Getting to a point where a hammer is necessary and getting a role claim 4 days into the 14 day Day phase of the game probably isn't a good reaction test.The way to avoid a derp hammer would be "someone unvote until we get enough info"don'twant a roleclaim, which is why I'm really uncertain about House's reaction test. I still don't think DP is town, but I want House to answer my question because I really was hoping that it was going to be brought up before L-1.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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kind of irrelevant to the game but if you dislike using they as a singular pronoun, do you mind using she? Thanks.In post 152, House wrote:There only useful thing that has come from this wagon is a more solid townread on Giga than I already had (which makes me doubly curious about RC's Giga read).
I was hoping to get everyone's reaction to L-1, not justhisand DP's. Though I did get Harlii's earlier, so there is that.
Would have been nicer if everyone had an opportunity to weigh in on it while it was ongoing, though.
And on that note: RC, do you use she or he? Your main says she, but your alt says he so I'm really not sure.
Anyway, my plays this game were pretty terrible I think. I'm still adjusting to the slower pace of a forum, and I'm seeing that making rash decisions have really bad consequences even in the short term. In my face-to-face game, people are generally too scared to vote to lynch, so I have to really push the town in a direction to generate discussion. In my chatroom games, RVS is also non-existent, and five-minute deadlines and a general hatred of extensions mean that you have to make quick decisions.
Ilikethis better, but I'm just making myself look a lot stupider because I'm not a hotheaded person by nature, but I'm trying to force myself to be from past experience.
I think I still townread House but there's a lot more doubt in there. I need a moment to decide whether or not I should validate that doubt or not.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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I'm pretty much asking him who the next scummy person is or who the next "non-scum who gives off a scummy vibe" is though, not looking for a reaction. I want to know so that before DP's hammered, the person hammering at least has a backup plan for the 5-2 scenario. I'm pretty sure House would want to lynch Racer64 if DP flips scum, but I honestly would not know where to go with a town!DP.In post 159, Harlii wrote:I feel like the answer to 'what happens if DP was lynched and town' doesn't legitimately change if House is scum or not. In either case, does he not say something along the lines of "I was wrong, so I should re-evaluate reads of the people DP was against" leading to targetting probably Foe (given the history between foe and DP) or really anyone else he hasn't read as hard town? As town, he obviously wants to move on to finding the next scummy person, and as scum, he wants to move on to the next non-scum who gives off a scummy vibe while distancing himself from the town lynch. What changes isn't really his reaction, but how people would read his reaction. In every case of retrospect, it makes sense for him to not hammer DP, because he'd be super suspicious if DP was town and he was scum, and as a town, it seems like it's not worth the risk to hammer someone potentially scummy this early.
It generallyisworth the risk of mislynching D1, because the information you can get from a townflip and nightkill can be very informative. If you look at the lynch accuracy stats of Matrix6, our chance of mislynching goes down no matter what. 6-1 is probably the most desirable outcome that we can at least rely on, and the chance of mislynching is still around 50%. 5-2 is not as good, but we have a 1 in 3 chance of correctly lynching. It's a big difference, but we're not completely screwed if we mislynch.
If we do end up with a mislynch, I'd at least want it to be a very informative mislynch.
Also I should have predicted that House wasn't going to hammer, especially considering I kept pointing out that I don't want to be on a lynchwagon yet... Really sorry for ruining your reaction test :/-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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This is why I'm not too upset about unvoting (if I were I would have revoted).In post 161, DoctorPepper wrote:Im just gonna weigh in and say how worried I am over the fact that its only 5 RL days and we have a bunch of other players who have not given significant contribution to the game and somehow everyone assumes I'm still gonna be the lynch target for today
Only thing is atm I can't see another viable person of interest. Foe is pretty much townread by everyone and is my new "safe townread," so I'm not sure your wagon is going to catch on. RC is a pretty popular townread too.
That leaves KNDP, House, me, MNS, Harlii, and Racer64. While atm they're ordered in how happy I'd be with their wagons (least happy to happiest), a Racer64 wagon would kinda suck since he's on V/LA. After looking at the voting patterns, Harlii's a lot more of a null read to me but I don't feel ready to call a wagon onto anyone.
Mind you, that's not a readslist. KNDP is definitely not a townread to me. Not to suggest Town!KNDP is impossible, but I disliked his entrance.
Also since I've looked at the voting patterns, it's my votes that get wagons rolling this game it seems . Don't know if that's good or bad though.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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In post 171, Harlii wrote:To add additional questions:
1. What happens when someone gets all 5 votes on them? I assume the mod shows up at some point, but what happens in the time between the vote and the mod showing up?
2. 'Scumhunting" I assume means actively trying to get people to react in scummy ways, i.e. through reaction tests, y/n?
Not the IC but I got this one!!
1. Votes no longer count, and everyone has to wait for the mod to announce the lynch scene. The time before that is referred to as Twilight, and people are still free to post. Usually the lynchee gets 1 uninformative "Bah!" post and is not allowed to talk, but that varies from mod-to-mod.
2. Not really about reaction tests. They can be part of scumhunting, but the more important thing is looking for scumtells, or things that imply that someone is scum. Think if it as looking for ways people lie in real life, like looking to the left to get more time to think, or being suddenly nervous.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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In post 186, House wrote:
So?In post 185, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:House, Racer isn't voting for me, or anyone for that matter.I still think he's pretty suspicious but I want him to defend himself once more before placing a vote, his V/LA ends tomorrow.
There's nothing wrong with him coming back to some pressure.
Oh, no, I agree, it's just that if I try to join a wagon, I want it to at least be based in the truth. Racer64 originally voted for his scumread, but it was a bad read so he unvoted and iirc never voted again.
Also, I know I said I wouldn't vote until I hear a defense (mostly because my suspicion came from his nullread on DP), but it's not like I can't unvote if I think he makes a good argument. So with that in mind...
VOTE: Racer64-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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Because I agreed that he needed some pressure? He's been mostly on V/LA and unlike RC there's not really anything to justify anything more than a townread. So giving him 2 votes of pressure seems better than 1.In post 192, House wrote:
Racer never voted you. At all. And, he WAS voting for his number 1 scumread.In post 187, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:In post 186, House wrote:
So?In post 185, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:House, Racer isn't voting for me, or anyone for that matter.I still think he's pretty suspicious but I want him to defend himself once more before placing a vote, his V/LA ends tomorrow.
There's nothing wrong with him coming back to some pressure.
Oh, no, I agree, it's just that if I try to join a wagon, I want it to at least be based in the truth. Racer64 originally voted for his scumread, but it was a bad read so he unvoted and iirc never voted again.
Also, I know I said I wouldn't vote until I hear a defense (mostly because my suspicion came from his nullread on DP), but it's not like I can't unvote if I think he makes a good argument. So with that in mind...
VOTE: Racer64
Why didn't you push me for putting out such a twisted case? Why vote for him when my post was untrue on two premises?
I'd like a DP lynch better but I think DP/Racer is a likely scumteam, so it wouldn't hurt to push a Racer wagon if it ends up building a better case for either.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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fuck i meant nullread but what's the point
I hope you have a backup plan for my mislynch, because I don't see what information it would give besides the fact I'm innocent.
1 is wrong because you say he voted for me.
2 is wrong because you say he voted for me.
That's only wrong on one account to me unless I'm missing something.
At least I townread you harder now because Scum!House would have missed that typo to use me as an easy mislynch tomorrow.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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With my Harlii townread going down the drain, yes. Foe is my only solid townread and I tend to agree with your reads and claims.In post 201, House wrote:
You had this doubt when I simply stated intent to hammer, yet zero doubts when I posted a factually inaccurate case along with a vote?In post 153, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:I think I still townread House but there's a lot more doubt in there. I need a moment to decide whether or not I should validate that doubt or not.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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Harlii's still a townread then?In post 166, House wrote:I was really liking Harlii's posting until the self-proclaimed major townread and nk paranoia. That was bad play if town, and manipulative if scum. Still mulling that one over.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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In post 207, House wrote:
Harlii is not a person of interest for today.In post 206, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:
Harlii's still a townread then?In post 166, House wrote:I was really liking Harlii's posting until the self-proclaimed major townread and nk paranoia. That was bad play if town, and manipulative if scum. Still mulling that one over.
OK, but if you're going to suggest that our reads aren't similar, then I don't see how that quote from you implies Harlii's anything but a nullread.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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Discussing the read on Harlii is relevant to me though, you said I was inconsistent for saying I both generally have agreed with you (why I put a vote on Racer64 without much thought) and distrusting Harlii.In post 209, House wrote:
Harlii is not the subject of discussion. You adding a vote after a contrived case on Racer64 is the subject of discussion.In post 208, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:In post 207, House wrote:
Harlii is not a person of interest for today.In post 206, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:
Harlii's still a townread then?In post 166, House wrote:I was really liking Harlii's posting until the self-proclaimed major townread and nk paranoia. That was bad play if town, and manipulative if scum. Still mulling that one over.
OK, but if you're going to suggest that our reads aren't similar, then I don't see how that quote from you implies Harlii's anything but a nullread.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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Also I voted for Racer because you specifically said this... If you had corrected yourself I wouldn't have changed my mind about staying on an unvote.In post 186, House wrote:
So?In post 185, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:House, Racer isn't voting for me, or anyone for that matter.I still think he's pretty suspicious but I want him to defend himself once more before placing a vote, his V/LA ends tomorrow.
There's nothing wrong with him coming back to some pressure.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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How can you say I've been sheeping you? I was the first to push for both of this game's major wagons (MNS and DP), and you weren't even a part of MNS at its end. Also, me unvoting DP because I didn't want you to have the power to hammer implies that I haveIn post 212, House wrote:So you're admitting that you've been sheeping me instead of forming your own reads?somedistrust of you.
Really the only time I've sheeped you is the vote you're scumreading me for, which is fair, but I think my mislynch will be incredibly unhelpful to the town because it doesn't incriminate Scim!House at all.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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In post 220, House wrote:
You jumped on an entirely inaccurate case as an excuse to cast a vote.In post 219, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:No, they don't, but I want to better understand House's case besides that one slip. I just personally would not be so certain about someone being scum unless I know what I want after a correct lynch and after an incorrect lynch.
That. Is. Not. Town.
The case wasn't even why I wanted to vote. I think DP/Racer is still a possible scumteam and apply pressure onto him. If I wanted to jump on a vote because of your inaccurate case, my first post in response to you would have been a vote. You telling me "My case might be inaccurate but it's still good to pressure him" persuaded me to vote, and I justified it because I can unvote when I need to.
At this point I realize I can't defend myself (and House is totally justified to put this much pressure on me, whether or not this was a test at first or a legitimate scumread), so I'm trying to make sure Town isn't fucked when I flip town.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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I meant more than a nullread. It makes no sense because it's not what I intended to write. I don't think anyone can possibly townread Racer and that's what I would have said if I didn't make that stupid error.
I still think Racer's nullread is weird and I want him to explain himself. That's what I mean by pressure. House's view on the weirdness of the vote (why not giga?) was different from mine (why DP?) but House and I were still on the same track with the DP read.
I think House went off on me because RC, who he trusts more on the basis of skill, has me as a very strong scumread (yet he's not on my wagon yet) and he wanted to see how I would put up with a fight. I failed miserably, and it's really starting to frustrate me because I thought I was better than this :/.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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I'd be less defensive about my lynch if:
Spoiler: Point A (spoilered because it's long)
B: I had a stronger case against Harlii, who is a hell of a lot more scummy to me after this fight and also the end of DP's wagon. More on this in C.
C: It wasn't Father's Day and people weren't busy. Some town reactions could have at least steered this in the right direction, and the only people who commented on this were Harlii and DP who are the last people I buy as town at this point. The fact that both of them are waiting for other people's reactions too (Harlii has consistently had a neutral tone to his questions, and DP implied that he felt I was scummy but didn't even vote. Both show they're afraid to take a stance) should at least seem a little scummy, even if you don't trust me.
I'm hoping that if House successfully gets a lynchwagon on me, I get a long twilight phase so I can at least try to do a post-mortem scumhunt while I'm conftown. Assuming that's allowed, of course.
And, also pointers on how to talk my way out of situations like this would be nice, because in my chatroom experience, I constantly get mislynched for "slips" like that while being hounded by a significantly more experienced player. You'd think I'd learn from some experience. It's hard to justify weird actions that you do anyway because you think it's the right thing to do, but surely if I'm town there's some way I can persuade the rest of the town that I'm innocent. I'd probably prefer this post-death or post-game though when I'm confirmed innocent.
also kraska77, welcome!-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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OK, who is that scumread? It can't possibly hurt your scumhunting if you state who your target is. After all, you were under suspicion and it wouldn't kill to give some reads.In post 228, DoctorPepper wrote:You're throwing things around here, I implied what you did was scummy, I didn't say I thought you were scum. Consider the fact that I have another scum read who isn't actively posting and I still need to get an answer from that guy.
I'm still surprised that no one who has been on has voted for me though, I thought that if House felt one way the rest of the town would follow. I guess I can believe that you, DP, would be less likely to follow House, but Harlii? Town really needs to be more active.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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He bolded the very thing that tore apart his case on Racer though. That tells me he acknowledged it, and his response tells me to dismiss it. Which I did!In post 186, House wrote:
So?In post 185, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:House, Racer isn't voting for me, or anyone for that matter.I still think he's pretty suspicious but I want him to defend himself once more before placing a vote, his V/LA ends tomorrow.
There's nothing wrong with him coming back to some pressure.
And I interpret your neutrality as stalling to see if any wagon catches on. You've been mid-votes on both of the major wagons (MNS and DP), which also corroborates this suspicion to me.
I also feel as though you've been mimicking my play throughout the game in order to gain House's trust (you've made the same comment about how people are townreading you and thus making you susceptible to a nk, for example. you also criticized your own play right after I did too if memory serves right), but I feel that it's more paranoia than something worth pursuing. I'm probably going to go through our combined ISOs to try to connect the dots on this one, but I don't expect it to go far.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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IIn post 238, foedufafa wrote:This is just factually inaccurate. You have another post as well where you cite your votes as getting major pushes going throughout this day. However, MNS was actually the first person to vote for DoctorPepper before you chose to. And with the MNS wagon you had him as your RVS vote which you never changed, but never made any indication that you were with Harlii and I in pressuring them for more activity. The first thing you say about it is "makesnosense is at L-2 no more voting for him." Unless you can direct me to a post where I'm mistaken about your involvement in that(I don't think I am but you have a lot of posts to sift through) it seems that you're misrepresenting your influence on this game.reallydisagree. My vote on MNS became non-rvs as soon as MNS voted, although I couldn't indicate such until way after that. Yes, I was the second vote on DP, but that's still early enough in the wagon. Plus, I don't think MNS has much influence in the game, so I'm not sure if the DP wagon would have caught on had I not voted for it. Maybe I'm overestimating my own influence, but that's legitimately how I saw this.
I got off of MNS because I got the post I wanted (post #97). In retrospect I regret this because MNS's activity has been dead after that post, but I'm more convinced of a DP/Racer or Harlii team and I want to focus on them more. RC did vote for MNS so I think we'll see more of that wagon.
The point is though, I think it's better to be early in the wagon than it is late in the wagon.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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solid entrance from kraska, this slot's in good hands
I'd be happy with a MNS lynch too but I'm still hesitant because I still think DP and {Harlii/Racer64} is a possible team. I want MNS to be at least more active before making a solid read on it, especially because Town has been very inactive in general.
Also, while you're here, do you think you could provide a list of reads?-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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House didn't press me to vote for DP, I was the second person on that wagon. I unvoted because while I don't trust DP, I felt House was ready to hammer before I was, and I at the very least want to weigh all of the possible outcomes before anyone's lynch or mislynch.
I voted for Racer without really taking House's case into consideration because Racer was my next vote regardless. House just persuaded me to join the wagon earlier than I would have. I'm not denying my Racer vote was bad though, but I'm standing by it.-
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gigabyteTroubadour Jack of All Trades
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I've been mulling about my read list, and I have more scumreads (including myself, because I always try to guess where most of the town reads me) than townreads. There's 9 players in every game, and only 2 of them can be scum. How can I have 5 possible scumreads?
If you're wondering what it is at this point...
Town
House
Foe
Raska/RC
Mafia
Racer64
gigabyteTroubadour
MNS/Harlii
DoctorPepper
I hate paranoia in Mafia because this is a cooperative game for even town players, and paranoia simply makes it difficult to come to a consensus and work together. V/LAs are ending soon and I hope that's the impetus we need to actually start moving on this game.
Emotionally I feel conflicted about my Harlii read, mostly because Harlii was at first my top townread. There's a lot of room for scum motivation in his posts, just as there is for newb!Town.
I'm also voting for my least scummy scum because the only thing I have against him is that I read his read on DP as a distancing attempt, and that wouldn't look good if DP flips scum. I want to pressure him, see how he reacts, and see how other players react too. I'm probably going to move onto a more realistic lynch vote (MNS or DP) unless Racer64 slips.-
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