Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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A few players here have played with me actually - I’m a bit of a slow starter, generally speaking.In post 85, Elements wrote:Because they haven't posted-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I think this Duchess v. Green Crayons fight has the potential to be SvT, but I’m not entirely sure. I’ll explain.
There does not appear to have been any attempt at any time from either player to de-escalate. Now there’s a lot of flinging of words like “mischaracterization” and “lies”, but frankly if I was sitting on either player’s shoes, I would be thinking that maybe the other person is being overly paranoid and tried to probe them some more, or simply focus elsewhere. Duchess tried this to some extent. Green Crayons doesn’t seem to have done it at all. And then multiple votes have piled on Duchess. Do I really believe this is a coincidence of some sort? No, I don’t.
I’ll just put my vote on what I’m seeing as the Scummiest vote on that wagon.
VOTE: Elements-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Also, I have been reading how you go about probing, and I think it’s quite likely that we will clash. That’s okay though - I don’t mind aggressive players actually, but I can’t say that I am a big fan of overly confident pronouncements. It tends to lead to tunnels from players that think are the greatest thing since sliced bread, and when they’re wrong, it just doesn’t seem to work out well for the Town.In post 274, Reformed Toxic Player wrote:
not this slow thoIn post 271, Andresvmb wrote:
A few players here have played with me actually - I’m a bit of a slow starter, generally speaking.In post 85, Elements wrote:Because they haven't posted
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Hey Datisi! I’m glad to come across you in another game actually. I can’t say I have any real idea what your alignment is, but I’m hoping for Town since I felt that your paranoia lead to decent places last time.In post 272, Datisi wrote:pedit: hi andres!!-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Actually I should be fair - Green Crayons began probing other players on page 11 I think. I just - I don’t know. I think there’s definitely the potential for 1 Scum amongst {Green Crayons, Duchess}, but I’m just a bit surprised that it escalated so quickly, and that both players became so stubborn about it. I don’t have any experience with either, so I’m not really sure what it means.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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You still were on the right side of the Mason splitting right? And didn’t we ultimately win that game anyway?In post 281, Datisi wrote:
...are you sure we're thinking of the same game?In post 279, Andresvmb wrote:but I’m hoping for Town since I felt that your paranoia lead to decent places last time.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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No, I was right. Here it is: viewtopic.php?p=12024832#p12024832.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Hey VPB. I’ll ISO there and let you know. I’ll say though that as I was reading I got a decently okay vibe from them. Like I put them as a Town Lean and moved on.In post 291, VP Baltar wrote:@andres - what are your thoughts on IVD?-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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What I wrote in my notes actually was openness about one’s Scum game (like in 108) come from really confident players or just Town who is happy to speak about it because they’re not Scum, and I had it as more likely to be the latter. For what it’s worth.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I did also think though that Duchess in 201 had a point, in that Italiano and Green Crayons could be aligned, with Duchess having hit a nerve of some sort. However, I didn’t think that Duchess’ confidence was entirely warranted.
So if you’re asking me what I think on a stand-alone basis, I thought Italiano was okay. Taking a side on the more meaningful spat D1 isn’t necessarily bad. If there’s anything that I would scrutinize later in the game is that little nugget I believe you highlighted about having some faith in Elements’ gut reads. Just something to watch out for.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I think I’ve made it crystal clear in other games that I tend to discard my early Scum Reads because they’re certainly not better than random. So I am not making any definitive statements about IVD / Green Crayons / Duchess right now. I just don’t know if it’s SvT or TvT. But you know what? Votes did pile onto one side of the argument. I am firmly convinced that Scum tend to avoid bussing so early in the game (or if they do, it’s because they can’t avoid a wagon out of fear of being exposed). So, what that tells me is that Duchess is more likely than random of being Town. And that perhaps one of those voters isn’t pure.In post 294, VP Baltar wrote:Maybe if you see IVD as town, that sways your thoughts on who is scum there?-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Okay it still took me embarrassingly long to realize who you were.In post 358, Reformed Toxic Player wrote:
Withholding the identity of my main for now.In post 357, Green Crayons wrote:RTP you got prior games you want to own up to?
I won’t blow your spot though.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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YOU CAN’T HIDE FROM ME.In post 361, Andresvmb wrote:
Okay it still took me embarrassingly long to realize who you were.In post 358, Reformed Toxic Player wrote:
Withholding the identity of my main for now.In post 357, Green Crayons wrote:RTP you got prior games you want to own up to?
I won’t blow your spot though.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Your gut is wrong. But perhaps what I’m more interested in is to figure out what universe leads you to the conclusion that I’m Scum.In post 419, Reformed Toxic Player wrote:also im like feeling unsure if im on the right track wrt universes but like my gut strongly makes me feel like andres is scum here.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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This is pretty solid from you Lotus I would say. I see you’ve been more aggressive than I remember you from the game that just finished (where the minute I developed an inkling that you were Scum, you guys shot me).In post 451, RLotus wrote:There are so many alignments up in the air and you yourself don't have anything solid on anyone. This is such an awkward time to settle on shooting inside your poe.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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It’s crossed my mind. They seem over-explainy to me so far.In post 481, VP Baltar wrote:
Who thinks Datisi is scummy?In post 479, Elements wrote:Datisi - Haven't figured out how to read this one. I think he's generally quite towny, but other people don't? Not rlly sure what to think.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Can you explain to me why you don’t think Elements is Scum here? I spent some time slowly re-reading the game, and for the life of me I can’t seem to agree with their worldview at all, and I think them putting me as Town was to appease me.In post 385, Datisi wrote:edit: ok, after writing this post but before submitting, i went to iso andres to see if he's talked about his elements vote, and he actually did, he saw their vote as the scummiest one on the duchess wagon. so that breaks my theory and makes me feel better on andres. false alarm, carry on with your day, everyone. /edit-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I’m almost done catching up while having re-read the game. I’ll post my worldview and you’ll get what I mean.In post 512, RLotus wrote:
What about their world view?In post 511, Andresvmb wrote:
Can you explain to me why you don’t think Elements is Scum here? I spent some time slowly re-reading the game, and for the life of me I can’t seem to agree with their worldview at all, and I think them putting me as Town was to appease me.In post 385, Datisi wrote:edit: ok, after writing this post but before submitting, i went to iso andres to see if he's talked about his elements vote, and he actually did, he saw their vote as the scummiest one on the duchess wagon. so that breaks my theory and makes me feel better on andres. false alarm, carry on with your day, everyone. /edit-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Do you think this is something a Partner would do as Scum? Because I seriously doubt it.In post 462, Green Crayons wrote:RTP's preemptive claim of a secret town tell for Harumi doesn't sit right with me (particularly bc he refuses to engage on it).-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I feel like you’re trying too hard to explain yourself. I don’t know, it’s a vibe I’m getting.In post 502, Datisi wrote:that is scummy in what way ... ?-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Right now, this summarizes how I’m feeling about slots this game.
Slight Lean Town
{Harumi Ayasato, Testarossa, RTP, RLotus, Green Crayons, Dunnstral}
Neutral
{Duchess, VPBaltar, ItalianoVD}
Slight Lean Scum
{Elements, Datisi, Lunar Martian/midwaybear}
I agree that RTP is Town. I’m probably overly cautious there right now, but I like their take on Testa / Harumi and I found myself agreeing. RTP / Koba is naturally suspicious of me so it is what it is.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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It’s rare that I find Scum giving up D1. I’ve yet to see it on this forum. I don’t find that a “nail in the coffin” at all.In post 521, RLotus wrote:Nah Italiano bites back when he gets scumread as town, the defeatism is the nail in the coffin imo-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I read all of their posts and thought they made sense. I mean it’s early right I don’t have that much confidence that one is right. But I wasn’t particularly pinged. If anything I’m finding pushes there a bit opportunistic, and maybe that’s informing my read too.In post 519, Dunnstral wrote:why testarossa town?-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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We’ll have to agree to disagree.In post 524, RLotus wrote:
He said himself that he isn't good at scum and gets caught easily, I think the defeatism makes perfect sense for him as scum here.In post 522, Andresvmb wrote:
It’s rare that I find Scum giving up D1. I’ve yet to see it on this forum. I don’t find that a “nail in the coffin” at all.In post 521, RLotus wrote:Nah Italiano bites back when he gets scumread as town, the defeatism is the nail in the coffin imo
Talk to me about Elements. Because I’m seriously questioning anyone with a TR there. I don’t know - I’ve said this multiple times, I don’t know that I’m good enough to spot Scum D1 and be accurate. But I really want someone to tell me why I should TR there.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I found myself agreeing with RTP’s view of slots in general. Not the specific reasons behind them necessarily.In post 526, RLotus wrote:
You said you found yourself agreeing with what RTP said about testa, but RTP said their read on her was based on meta. So what exactly do you find yourself agreeing with?In post 523, Andresvmb wrote:
I read all of their posts and thought they made sense. I mean it’s early right I don’t have that much confidence that one is right. But I wasn’t particularly pinged. If anything I’m finding pushes there a bit opportunistic, and maybe that’s informing my read too.In post 519, Dunnstral wrote:why testarossa town?-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Really? Because I called them Scummy, put a vote down there, and haven’t been around much (though I’ve been trying to pay attention specifically to how certain slots are interacting with each other), and they called me Towny because others said so? And why would they like my take on GC/Duchess when it directly contradicts how they reacted to interactions there (by putting a vote down on Duchess). Does that make any sense to you at all?In post 528, RLotus wrote:
Nothing they've done really sticks out to me, nothing out of the ordinary. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a reason they are town, but they are kinda just null in my eyes.In post 525, Andresvmb wrote:
We’ll have to agree to disagree.In post 524, RLotus wrote:
He said himself that he isn't good at scum and gets caught easily, I think the defeatism makes perfect sense for him as scum here.In post 522, Andresvmb wrote:
It’s rare that I find Scum giving up D1. I’ve yet to see it on this forum. I don’t find that a “nail in the coffin” at all.In post 521, RLotus wrote:Nah Italiano bites back when he gets scumread as town, the defeatism is the nail in the coffin imo
Talk to me about Elements. Because I’m seriously questioning anyone with a TR there. I don’t know - I’ve said this multiple times, I don’t know that I’m good enough to spot Scum D1 and be accurate. But I really want someone to tell me why I should TR there.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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And what I had put down for Testa was that I got positive vibes from them doubting a TR on them in 190. But it’s weak right they just haven’t been around enough to form a strong enough view.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All Trades
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I just can’t for the life of me see how they arrived at that wall with all of their views. I just don’t see it. Who knows maybe they’re right and I’m trash. I have found myself in a few games viewing things the complete opposite way. But you know what? Harumi seemed okay to me. Admitting that a lot of the players were null to them seemed honest to me. Not an attempt at leaving themselves open to just doing whatever - just honest. And Dunn is way too aggressive in their retort to VPB when coming back for Scum. I have been wrong about this before, so take it with a grain of salt. But Dunndoes not seem to give a crap. Could it be coming from Scum? Yeah, sure. For now I don’t think so.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Yeah. It’s how I tend to go about D1’s. Anybody who seems to be pushing the game in a direction I can’t follow is usually on my shit list.In post 533, RLotus wrote:
It seems like most of your scum reads are based on them having reads you disagree withIn post 531, Andresvmb wrote:Also 351 pinged me from Lunar. I don’t agree with their view on GC and I think this is easily a post Scum could make.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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It takes a while for me to form a hardened view of the game. So I don’t think so. You’ll see me constantly flip flop if things are going haywire, and I try to stay independent as much as I can. I also constantly re-evaluate based on new information. It’s really rare that I’ll carry a wrong read from D1 all the way to the end. In fact I’ve yet to do it in the 8 games I’ve played here.In post 537, RLotus wrote:
Thinking about it, this probably makes you pretty easy to pocket hahaIn post 535, Andresvmb wrote:
Yeah. It’s how I tend to go about D1’s. Anybody who seems to be pushing the game in a direction I can’t follow is usually on my shit list.In post 533, RLotus wrote:
It seems like most of your scum reads are based on them having reads you disagree withIn post 531, Andresvmb wrote:Also 351 pinged me from Lunar. I don’t agree with their view on GC and I think this is easily a post Scum could make.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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And who do you think I’m trying to pocket exactly? Because if I was Scum, and I’m looking at the landscape, I would be trying to pocket those that have thrown Town Reads my way (say those that felt positively after my first real entrance), and perhaps appeasing those that know me best (excluding Koba who I know for instance is most suspicious of stuff like that). I don’t need to pocket you Harumi I’m sorry to say, particularly since you’re gathering some votes and don’t have a strong presence in the game yet.In post 547, Harumi Ayasato wrote:Is it bad that I'm sensing a potential pocket/manipulation strategy from andres? Might just be me though.
If you’re going to throw stuff my way, I would like for you to think through what the Scum motivation is. Because right now all I’m seeing is paranoia, but not a whole lot of sense.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Out of all of the ways in which someone can respond to an accusation of lurking while returning to a thread, I thought this was on the more confrontational side.In post 366, Dunnstral wrote:
Because I didn't see it.In post 355, VP Baltar wrote:
Why are you posting regularly in other games but not here?In post 354, Dunnstral wrote:
Do you need something?In post 351, Lunar Martian wrote:Personally I'm more interested in Dunnstral and whether he always is this lurky and fluffy.
I'm down to wagon GC.
Why did you ignore my request for some reads?
This game isn't interesting right now
Reads: Green Crayons, Reformed Toxic Player for town
Scumreads: Not really sure, Elements was/is being weird, Testarossa I understand little of what is going on in her head despite her posts and it feels like she's said less than she has
VOTE: Testarossa-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Everybody plays Scum differently. I suppose we all have different views as to how Scum play. I find that independent thought and a baseline skepticism / hostility tend to be difficult for Scum to genuinely maintain. But I know what you mean - that unnecessary aggression that allows for a shit push, yeah Scum do that all the time.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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In that particular case, I only did it so that I could keep track of where I was when re-reading the game. But honestly I don’t know how to feel about you Datisi. From where I sit, you are almost justifying having a negative view of my slot as something that just happens for you naturally even when I’m Town, and even when your first impression doesn’t quite match with how I have actually played the game so far. And I’m saying this since you admitted that I did provide some explanation for my vote on Elements when at first you thought I hadn’t given any.In post 553, Datisi wrote:is there a reason why that part of my post was quoted for this question?-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Meh I’m not particularly strong on anyone right now. If I was, you should find me suspicious.In post 555, VP Baltar wrote:Also, I forgot he is voting one of your top townreads. Lol-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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You didn’t think the first question was confrontational at all? And admitting that they think the game is boring seemed somewhat aggressive to me. Aggressive in a “I don’t give a crap about what you think of me” kind of way. I need to find a better word for it.In post 555, VP Baltar wrote:How is it aggressive to say 'this game is boring, so I'm not play'?-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I find large explanations or cases on anything D1 to be suspicious. It makes me think you’re full of hot air.In post 556, Datisi wrote:why is that scummy-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Why don’t you just answer the question? I’m clearly skeptical there - I want to see how you think.In post 559, Datisi wrote:i was also asking why were you asking me in particular that question about elements, sorry if that was unclear-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I’m not quite sure what you were trying to do to be honest with you.In post 559, Datisi wrote:don't you think i'd have picked something that's i also don't then debunk myself 3 seconds later?-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 8778
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You have not played with me enough if you think this is me being sure of a read. I have self-hammered while calling for someone’s head in all caps when I was sure of a read (and mind you, I was right). This is me inviting discussion and disagreement. It’s the best way to test a theory and read others.In post 564, Datisi wrote:even reading your latest posts i want to vote you because to me you seem pretty sure about elements-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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It doesn’t though. I only said it made me suspicious. It just makes me want to look closer. If I was using it to SR every player, then I would have to have negative Leans on Duchess and Green Crayons (and maybe even Italiano) based on their exchange and I don’t.In post 569, midwaybear wrote:This seems like a blanket scumread, and I don't know if you really believe that it applies to every player.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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This is fair. It has to be combined with some attempt at solving, it can’t be just I don’t care what you think and I’m going to sit idly by. So I understand for example where VPB is coming from, where they’re being skeptical about the fact that Dunn appears bored and uninterested in solving. But I would argue that Dunn has given some opinions, and they don’t seem insane to me.In post 569, midwaybear wrote:Also, I don't think people should be townread for "not caring about perception". Most players are easily able to fake that type of uncaring tone as scum.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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I don’t know why you keep saying this. Testarossa is not my strongest TR. If I had to say who I think my strongest TR is right now, it would be RTP.In post 583, VP Baltar wrote:You have literally an opposite opinion from him on your strongest read!-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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I’ve already explained my view on Dunn. I don’t have a problem with you disagreeing.In post 583, VP Baltar wrote:Also, dunn has not really stated opinions beyond gut and tone as far as I can tell. That's either lazy or scummy. Tell me how I'm wrong here?-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
- Jack of All Trades
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Okay but even if I was organizing them from strongest to weakest, they still wouldn’t be my strongest TR.In post 585, VP Baltar wrote:And like, I get you are saying you don't have strong feelings about anyone in the game, but I'm only going off your list. Testa is listed second in that list.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
- Jack of All Trades
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In any case, I organize folks in tiers in my head, mostly. And if I had a really strong opinion of someone, you would know. You asked me about Testa already and I gave you an answer. I don’t understand why you’re insisting that it’s my strongest TR when I clarified that already.
In any case, even if they were, that’s not entirely why I’m skeptical of players here. I don’t understand Elements’ entire worldview. I feel they put a Scummy vote down, and I am entirety skeptical of their grouping of players in general. There’s a difference of degree here.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
- Jack of All Trades
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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I am with you regarding the need for accountability and for some reasoning behind votes in general. But I also don’t expect most players to have very well thought out reasons for putting down votes D1. That’s all I was trying to get at. Intuition is important man.In post 597, VP Baltar wrote:
I mean, in my experience playing with you, you have gotten into some very deep arguments about specifics. The problem with gut and tone is that they are feeling words with no justification. I'm not saying a person can't use them, but if that is the entirety of your case, it sure makes it impossible to pin you to a position if you change your mind later.In post 592, Andresvmb wrote:Also, what’s wrong with gut and tone, exactly? It’s D1. There’s no concrete information. Most of what we’re using to read players is based on anyone’s interpretation of anybody else’s words and motivations.
I'm all about accountability, and it's impossible to make someone accountable for tone. I'd expect you to get that.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
- Jack of All Trades
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This is wrong. Look - what I was trying to do was simply show that even with the most generous interpretation of the post with my reads, he was still incorrect (remember, VPB tried to argue that my view of Dunn is illogical because I was signaling that Testa was my strongest TR, which I never stated and my structuring didn’t imply). So no, Testa is NOT my second strongest read. Just so we’re clear. And it’s obviously less so since they have yet to come back into the game.In post 640, midwaybear wrote:Not really a fan of Andres arguing that Testa was his second strongest townread. That seems like a weird point to focus on.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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@RTP I think there’s Scum pushing Italiano. I don’t think this frustration/defeatism is coming from Scum, but honestly, I have revealed this to be a bit of a weak spot for me. I obviously think midwaybear’s seeming POE for today is rubbish, and I need you to look a bit closer there. I also don’t like Datisi’s 618 (seems like Scum sidelining a player that is maybe an easy push here). However, this whole thing is a bit binary. If they’re right about Italiano, then I expect {Green Crayons / Datisi / midwaybear} and to a lesser extent VPB to come out looking stronger for it. If Italiano is Town, then it’ll make it more obvious that we’re in part being led astray by Scum.-
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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- Location: NY, USA
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Andresvmb He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 8778
- Joined: July 26, 2020
- Pronoun: He/Him
- Location: NY, USA