Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Andresvmb]

So many familiar faces. This should be fun.

VOTE: VP Baltar

[Andresvmb]

Btw I’m VLA until tomorrow possibly (I might log in tonight), but I see the game is really starting to get going.

[Andresvmb]

Because they haven't posted

A few players here have played with me actually - I’m a bit of a slow starter, generally speaking.

[Andresvmb]

I think this Duchess v. Green Crayons fight has the potential to be SvT, but I’m not entirely sure. I’ll explain.

There does not appear to have been any attempt at any time from either player to de-escalate. Now there’s a lot of flinging of words like “mischaracterization” and “lies”, but frankly if I was sitting on either player’s shoes, I would be thinking that maybe the other person is being overly paranoid and tried to probe them some more, or simply focus elsewhere. Duchess tried this to some extent. Green Crayons doesn’t seem to have done it at all. And then multiple votes have piled on Duchess. Do I really believe this is a coincidence of some sort? No, I don’t.

I’ll just put my vote on what I’m seeing as the Scummiest vote on that wagon.

VOTE: Elements

[Andresvmb]

Because they haven't posted

A few players here have played with me actually - I’m a bit of a slow starter, generally speaking.

not this slow tho

Also, I have been reading how you go about probing, and I think it’s quite likely that we will clash. That’s okay though - I don’t mind aggressive players actually, but I can’t say that I am a big fan of overly confident pronouncements. It tends to lead to tunnels from players that think are the greatest thing since sliced bread, and when they’re wrong, it just doesn’t seem to work out well for the Town.

[Andresvmb]

pedit: hi andres!!

Hey Datisi! I’m glad to come across you in another game actually. I can’t say I have any real idea what your alignment is, but I’m hoping for Town since I felt that your paranoia lead to decent places last time.

[Andresvmb]

Actually I should be fair - Green Crayons began probing other players on page 11 I think. I just - I don’t know. I think there’s definitely the potential for 1 Scum amongst {Green Crayons, Duchess}, but I’m just a bit surprised that it escalated so quickly, and that both players became so stubborn about it. I don’t have any experience with either, so I’m not really sure what it means.

[Andresvmb]

but I’m hoping for Town since I felt that your paranoia lead to decent places last time.

...are you sure we're thinking of the same game?

You still were on the right side of the Mason splitting right? And didn’t we ultimately win that game anyway?

[Andresvmb]

Or no, you’re right, I might be thinking of a different game. But! I do think I remember your gameplay decently well, and thinking that you were solid. Despite you carrying this paranoia about my slot for a long time.

[Andresvmb]

No, I was right. Here it is: viewtopic.php?p=12024832#p12024832.

[Andresvmb]

@andres - what are your thoughts on IVD?

Hey VPB. I’ll ISO there and let you know. I’ll say though that as I was reading I got a decently okay vibe from them. Like I put them as a Town Lean and moved on.

[Andresvmb]

What I wrote in my notes actually was openness about one’s Scum game (like in 108) come from really confident players or just Town who is happy to speak about it because they’re not Scum, and I had it as more likely to be the latter. For what it’s worth.

[Andresvmb]

I did also think though that Duchess in 201 had a point, in that Italiano and Green Crayons could be aligned, with Duchess having hit a nerve of some sort. However, I didn’t think that Duchess’ confidence was entirely warranted.

So if you’re asking me what I think on a stand-alone basis, I thought Italiano was okay. Taking a side on the more meaningful spat D1 isn’t necessarily bad. If there’s anything that I would scrutinize later in the game is that little nugget I believe you highlighted about having some faith in Elements’ gut reads. Just something to watch out for.

[Andresvmb]

Maybe if you see IVD as town, that sways your thoughts on who is scum there?

I think I’ve made it crystal clear in other games that I tend to discard my early Scum Reads because they’re certainly not better than random. So I am not making any definitive statements about IVD / Green Crayons / Duchess right now. I just don’t know if it’s SvT or TvT. But you know what? Votes did pile onto one side of the argument. I am firmly convinced that Scum tend to avoid bussing so early in the game (or if they do, it’s because they can’t avoid a wagon out of fear of being exposed). So, what that tells me is that Duchess is more likely than random of being Town. And that perhaps one of those voters isn’t pure.

[Andresvmb]

And why am I discarding it being SvS? Precisely because votes piled on. So if it ends up being Scum theater and some good old fashioned distancing, I’ll be surprised. I thought the escalation wasn’t completely manufactured, but I could be wrong. Still a bit early to tell.

[Andresvmb]

RTP you got prior games you want to own up to?

Withholding the identity of my main for now.

Okay it still took me embarrassingly long to realize who you were.

I won’t blow your spot though.

[Andresvmb]

RTP you got prior games you want to own up to?

Withholding the identity of my main for now.

Okay it still took me embarrassingly long to realize who you were.

I won’t blow your spot though.

YOU CAN’T HIDE FROM ME.

[Andresvmb]

Let me catch up really quick, I’ll be around for a bit.

[Andresvmb]

also im like feeling unsure if im on the right track wrt universes but like my gut strongly makes me feel like andres is scum here.

Your gut is wrong. But perhaps what I’m more interested in is to figure out what universe leads you to the conclusion that I’m Scum.

[Andresvmb]

There are so many alignments up in the air and you yourself don't have anything solid on anyone. This is such an awkward time to settle on shooting inside your poe.

This is pretty solid from you Lotus I would say. I see you’ve been more aggressive than I remember you from the game that just finished (where the minute I developed an inkling that you were Scum, you guys shot me).

[Andresvmb]

Datisi - Haven't figured out how to read this one. I think he's generally quite towny, but other people don't? Not rlly sure what to think.

Who thinks Datisi is scummy?

It’s crossed my mind. They seem over-explainy to me so far.

[Andresvmb]

edit: ok, after writing this post but before submitting, i went to iso andres to see if he's talked about his elements vote, and he actually did, he saw their vote as the scummiest one on the duchess wagon. so that breaks my theory and makes me feel better on andres. false alarm, carry on with your day, everyone. /edit

Can you explain to me why you don’t think Elements is Scum here? I spent some time slowly re-reading the game, and for the life of me I can’t seem to agree with their worldview at all, and I think them putting me as Town was to appease me.

[Andresvmb]

edit: ok, after writing this post but before submitting, i went to iso andres to see if he's talked about his elements vote, and he actually did, he saw their vote as the scummiest one on the duchess wagon. so that breaks my theory and makes me feel better on andres. false alarm, carry on with your day, everyone. /edit

Can you explain to me why you don’t think Elements is Scum here? I spent some time slowly re-reading the game, and for the life of me I can’t seem to agree with their worldview at all, and I think them putting me as Town was to appease me.

What about their world view?

I’m almost done catching up while having re-read the game. I’ll post my worldview and you’ll get what I mean.

[Andresvmb]

RTP's preemptive claim of a secret town tell for Harumi doesn't sit right with me (particularly bc he refuses to engage on it).

Do you think this is something a Partner would do as Scum? Because I seriously doubt it.

[Andresvmb]

that is scummy in what way ... ?

I feel like you’re trying too hard to explain yourself. I don’t know, it’s a vibe I’m getting.

[Andresvmb]

Right now, this summarizes how I’m feeling about slots this game.

Slight Lean Town
{Harumi Ayasato, Testarossa, RTP, RLotus, Green Crayons, Dunnstral}
Neutral
{Duchess, VPBaltar, ItalianoVD}
Slight Lean Scum
{Elements, Datisi, Lunar Martian/midwaybear}

I agree that RTP is Town. I’m probably overly cautious there right now, but I like their take on Testa / Harumi and I found myself agreeing. RTP / Koba is naturally suspicious of me so it is what it is.

[Andresvmb]

Out of Green Crayons / Duchess, I think GC is Townier actually. I don’t really know what to make of Italiano. I thought the defeatism and the post I pointed out where coming from Town, but it isn’t an easy read I’ll admit.

[Andresvmb]

I’m really meh on VPB and I can’t say that I care that my stock is falling in their eyes. But I like VPB as a player so that’s also one I’m trying to think through a bit more.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, Elements’ worldview makes no sense to me at all. I don’t think Dunn is Scum. I don’t think Harumi is Scum either. I think their pushes are nonsense, and I can’t say I see why they are putting Datisi as null but think they’re quite Towny.

[Andresvmb]

Nah Italiano bites back when he gets scumread as town, the defeatism is the nail in the coffin imo

It’s rare that I find Scum giving up D1. I’ve yet to see it on this forum. I don’t find that a “nail in the coffin” at all.

[Andresvmb]

why testarossa town?

I read all of their posts and thought they made sense. I mean it’s early right I don’t have that much confidence that one is right. But I wasn’t particularly pinged. If anything I’m finding pushes there a bit opportunistic, and maybe that’s informing my read too.

[Andresvmb]

Nah Italiano bites back when he gets scumread as town, the defeatism is the nail in the coffin imo

It’s rare that I find Scum giving up D1. I’ve yet to see it on this forum. I don’t find that a “nail in the coffin” at all.

He said himself that he isn't good at scum and gets caught easily, I think the defeatism makes perfect sense for him as scum here.

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

Talk to me about Elements. Because I’m seriously questioning anyone with a TR there. I don’t know - I’ve said this multiple times, I don’t know that I’m good enough to spot Scum D1 and be accurate. But I really want someone to tell me why I should TR there.

[Andresvmb]

why testarossa town?

I read all of their posts and thought they made sense. I mean it’s early right I don’t have that much confidence that one is right. But I wasn’t particularly pinged. If anything I’m finding pushes there a bit opportunistic, and maybe that’s informing my read too.

You said you found yourself agreeing with what RTP said about testa, but RTP said their read on her was based on meta. So what exactly do you find yourself agreeing with?

I found myself agreeing with RTP’s view of slots in general. Not the specific reasons behind them necessarily.

[Andresvmb]

Nah Italiano bites back when he gets scumread as town, the defeatism is the nail in the coffin imo

It’s rare that I find Scum giving up D1. I’ve yet to see it on this forum. I don’t find that a “nail in the coffin” at all.

He said himself that he isn't good at scum and gets caught easily, I think the defeatism makes perfect sense for him as scum here.

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

Talk to me about Elements. Because I’m seriously questioning anyone with a TR there. I don’t know - I’ve said this multiple times, I don’t know that I’m good enough to spot Scum D1 and be accurate. But I really want someone to tell me why I should TR there.

Nothing they've done really sticks out to me, nothing out of the ordinary. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a reason they are town, but they are kinda just null in my eyes.

Really? Because I called them Scummy, put a vote down there, and haven’t been around much (though I’ve been trying to pay attention specifically to how certain slots are interacting with each other), and they called me Towny because others said so? And why would they like my take on GC/Duchess when it directly contradicts how they reacted to interactions there (by putting a vote down on Duchess). Does that make any sense to you at all?

[Andresvmb]

And what I had put down for Testa was that I got positive vibes from them doubting a TR on them in 190. But it’s weak right they just haven’t been around enough to form a strong enough view.

[Andresvmb]

Also 351 pinged me from Lunar. I don’t agree with their view on GC and I think this is easily a post Scum could make.

[Andresvmb]

I just can’t for the life of me see how they arrived at that wall with all of their views. I just don’t see it. Who knows maybe they’re right and I’m trash. I have found myself in a few games viewing things the complete opposite way. But you know what? Harumi seemed okay to me. Admitting that a lot of the players were null to them seemed honest to me. Not an attempt at leaving themselves open to just doing whatever - just honest. And Dunn is way too aggressive in their retort to VPB when coming back for Scum. I have been wrong about this before, so take it with a grain of salt. But Dunn

does not seem to give a crap

. Could it be coming from Scum? Yeah, sure. For now I don’t think so.

[Andresvmb]

Also 351 pinged me from Lunar. I don’t agree with their view on GC and I think this is easily a post Scum could make.

It seems like most of your scum reads are based on them having reads you disagree with

Yeah. It’s how I tend to go about D1’s. Anybody who seems to be pushing the game in a direction I can’t follow is usually on my shit list.

[Andresvmb]

Also 351 pinged me from Lunar. I don’t agree with their view on GC and I think this is easily a post Scum could make.

It seems like most of your scum reads are based on them having reads you disagree with

Yeah. It’s how I tend to go about D1’s. Anybody who seems to be pushing the game in a direction I can’t follow is usually on my shit list.

Thinking about it, this probably makes you pretty easy to pocket haha

It takes a while for me to form a hardened view of the game. So I don’t think so. You’ll see me constantly flip flop if things are going haywire, and I try to stay independent as much as I can. I also constantly re-evaluate based on new information. It’s really rare that I’ll carry a wrong read from D1 all the way to the end. In fact I’ve yet to do it in the 8 games I’ve played here.

[Andresvmb]

Is it bad that I'm sensing a potential pocket/manipulation strategy from andres? Might just be me though.

And who do you think I’m trying to pocket exactly? Because if I was Scum, and I’m looking at the landscape, I would be trying to pocket those that have thrown Town Reads my way (say those that felt positively after my first real entrance), and perhaps appeasing those that know me best (excluding Koba who I know for instance is most suspicious of stuff like that). I don’t need to pocket you Harumi I’m sorry to say, particularly since you’re gathering some votes and don’t have a strong presence in the game yet.
If you’re going to throw stuff my way, I would like for you to think through what the Scum motivation is. Because right now all I’m seeing is paranoia, but not a whole lot of sense.

[Andresvmb]

Personally I'm more interested in Dunnstral and whether he always is this lurky and fluffy.

I'm down to wagon GC.

Do you need something?

Why are you posting regularly in other games but not here?

Why did you ignore my request for some reads?

Because I didn't see it.

This game isn't interesting right now

Reads: Green Crayons, Reformed Toxic Player for town

Scumreads: Not really sure, Elements was/is being weird, Testarossa I understand little of what is going on in her head despite her posts and it feels like she's said less than she has

VOTE: Testarossa

Out of all of the ways in which someone can respond to an accusation of lurking while returning to a thread, I thought this was on the more confrontational side.

[Andresvmb]

Everybody plays Scum differently. I suppose we all have different views as to how Scum play. I find that independent thought and a baseline skepticism / hostility tend to be difficult for Scum to genuinely maintain. But I know what you mean - that unnecessary aggression that allows for a shit push, yeah Scum do that all the time.

[Andresvmb]

is there a reason why that part of my post was quoted for this question?

In that particular case, I only did it so that I could keep track of where I was when re-reading the game. But honestly I don’t know how to feel about you Datisi. From where I sit, you are almost justifying having a negative view of my slot as something that just happens for you naturally even when I’m Town, and even when your first impression doesn’t quite match with how I have actually played the game so far. And I’m saying this since you admitted that I did provide some explanation for my vote on Elements when at first you thought I hadn’t given any.

[Andresvmb]

Also, I forgot he is voting one of your top townreads. Lol

Meh I’m not particularly strong on anyone right now. If I was, you should find me suspicious.

[Andresvmb]

How is it aggressive to say 'this game is boring, so I'm not play'?

You didn’t think the first question was confrontational at all? And admitting that they think the game is boring seemed somewhat aggressive to me. Aggressive in a “I don’t give a crap about what you think of me” kind of way. I need to find a better word for it.

[Andresvmb]

why is that scummy

I find large explanations or cases on anything D1 to be suspicious. It makes me think you’re full of hot air.

[Andresvmb]

i was also asking why were you asking me in particular that question about elements, sorry if that was unclear

Why don’t you just answer the question? I’m clearly skeptical there - I want to see how you think.

[Andresvmb]

^Though now I see you’ve rescinded your TR. But I’m trying to judge players based on how they’re viewing the one player I’m most skeptical of.

[Andresvmb]

don't you think i'd have picked something that's i also don't then debunk myself 3 seconds later?

I’m not quite sure what you were trying to do to be honest with you.

[Andresvmb]

even reading your latest posts i want to vote you because to me you seem pretty sure about elements

You have not played with me enough if you think this is me being sure of a read. I have self-hammered while calling for someone’s head in all caps when I was sure of a read (and mind you, I was right). This is me inviting discussion and disagreement. It’s the best way to test a theory and read others.

[Andresvmb]

This seems like a blanket scumread, and I don't know if you really believe that it applies to every player.

It doesn’t though. I only said it made me suspicious. It just makes me want to look closer. If I was using it to SR every player, then I would have to have negative Leans on Duchess and Green Crayons (and maybe even Italiano) based on their exchange and I don’t.

[Andresvmb]

Also, I don't think people should be townread for "not caring about perception". Most players are easily able to fake that type of uncaring tone as scum.

This is fair. It has to be combined with some attempt at solving, it can’t be just I don’t care what you think and I’m going to sit idly by. So I understand for example where VPB is coming from, where they’re being skeptical about the fact that Dunn appears bored and uninterested in solving. But I would argue that Dunn has given some opinions, and they don’t seem insane to me.

[Andresvmb]

You have literally an opposite opinion from him on your strongest read!

I don’t know why you keep saying this. Testarossa is not my strongest TR. If I had to say who I think my strongest TR is right now, it would be RTP.

[Andresvmb]

Also, dunn has not really stated opinions beyond gut and tone as far as I can tell. That's either lazy or scummy. Tell me how I'm wrong here?

I’ve already explained my view on Dunn. I don’t have a problem with you disagreeing.

[Andresvmb]

And like, I get you are saying you don't have strong feelings about anyone in the game, but I'm only going off your list. Testa is listed second in that list.

Okay but even if I was organizing them from strongest to weakest, they still wouldn’t be my strongest TR.

[Andresvmb]

In any case, I organize folks in tiers in my head, mostly. And if I had a really strong opinion of someone, you would know. You asked me about Testa already and I gave you an answer. I don’t understand why you’re insisting that it’s my strongest TR when I clarified that already.

In any case, even if they were, that’s not entirely why I’m skeptical of players here. I don’t understand Elements’ entire worldview. I feel they put a Scummy vote down, and I am entirety skeptical of their grouping of players in general. There’s a difference of degree here.

[Andresvmb]

Also, what’s wrong with gut and tone, exactly? It’s D1. There’s no concrete information. Most of what we’re using to read players is based on anyone’s interpretation of anybody else’s words and motivations.

[Andresvmb]

Also, what’s wrong with gut and tone, exactly? It’s D1. There’s no concrete information. Most of what we’re using to read players is based on anyone’s interpretation of anybody else’s words and motivations.

I mean, in my experience playing with you, you have gotten into some very deep arguments about specifics. The problem with gut and tone is that they are feeling words with no justification. I'm not saying a person can't use them, but if that is the entirety of your case, it sure makes it impossible to pin you to a position if you change your mind later.

I'm all about accountability, and it's impossible to make someone accountable for tone. I'd expect you to get that.

I am with you regarding the need for accountability and for some reasoning behind votes in general. But I also don’t expect most players to have very well thought out reasons for putting down votes D1. That’s all I was trying to get at. Intuition is important man.

[Andresvmb]

Not really a fan of Andres arguing that Testa was his second strongest townread. That seems like a weird point to focus on.

This is wrong. Look - what I was trying to do was simply show that even with the most generous interpretation of the post with my reads, he was still incorrect (remember, VPB tried to argue that my view of Dunn is illogical because I was signaling that Testa was my strongest TR, which I never stated and my structuring didn’t imply). So no, Testa is NOT my second strongest read. Just so we’re clear. And it’s obviously less so since they have yet to come back into the game.

[Andresvmb]

@RTP I think there’s Scum pushing Italiano. I don’t think this frustration/defeatism is coming from Scum, but honestly, I have revealed this to be a bit of a weak spot for me. I obviously think midwaybear’s seeming POE for today is rubbish, and I need you to look a bit closer there. I also don’t like Datisi’s 618 (seems like Scum sidelining a player that is maybe an easy push here). However, this whole thing is a bit binary. If they’re right about Italiano, then I expect {Green Crayons / Datisi / midwaybear} and to a lesser extent VPB to come out looking stronger for it. If Italiano is Town, then it’ll make it more obvious that we’re in part being led astray by Scum.

[Andresvmb]

^oh and RLotus too. RLotus also seems convinced Italiano is Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I'm townreading VPB, RTP, and Elements.
I could elim Andres, Italiano, and Harumi. Could basically compromise on anyone else with a decent enough case.

And this is the POE I’m talking about.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll be back with some thoughts tonight.

[Andresvmb]

Goodness - work ran late yesterday and this game is ever expanding. No matter - I’m done with this big project so I’ll have some time tonight for sure. In any case, we still have time. And it’s good that some of the flakier slots are all getting replaced it seems. Should help long-term.

[Andresvmb]

"there's scum pushing italiano, if italiano flips town these people are +scum" while not actually getting to any conclusions who it is and why. though i admit this is way too surface-level than i'd like, so i'll reread/reskim his iso again Soon(tm) and see what i find.

I need to read (I’m doing that now so give me like an hour or two to update all of my reads), but it’s really hard to pinpoint exact Scum on a wagon for a player you think is Town yeah? I may think I’m decent but that’s quite the ask. Here it’s probably a player that’s in the background. So if I had to take an early guess, I would say RLotus is maybe more likely than you are to be Scum upon an Italiano Town flip.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah I mean my nulls haven’t done anything to warrant movement. Harumi and testa fell off the face of the earth, dunn and elements lurks as usual.

I will say i did waiver on my andre townlean, because reading testarossa town is absurd to me, but I liked his explanation on how he goes about day 1s, felt towny.

And yeah I’m pretty much fixated on Italiano for now

Defeatism isn't towny. Yall are letting him off way too easily. At most that post should be NAI.

I’m not sure how I feel about this. Lotus you’re very critical of Italiano’s AtE and defeatism, but up until this point (I’m not fully read up so give me some room here), you haven’t commented on the fact (as far as I can tell) that Elements had

repeatedly

self-voted, leaving them at null. I think that’s interesting.

[Andresvmb]

Meh. I need to move my vote.

I’ll sit here for now.

VOTE: RLotus

[Andresvmb]

Meh. I need to move my vote.

I’ll sit here for now.

VOTE: RLotus

Have you finished catching up?

Not completely. But VPB sounds like Town to me, and your push there seems bad (around 869). If you flip Scum I would flip RTP too actually. You guys seemed overly aligned there for a bit. If VPB is onto something, he’s being sidelined in a rather aggressive way.

[Andresvmb]

RTP is pushing {GC, Elements}, and you RLotus are pushing {VPB, ItalianoVD} while leaving Elements at null and attacking some of the “lurker” slots. Somethings not right. I would gamble Datisi is siding somewhat incorrectly? But is maybe too transparent with their logic and reads for Scum. I also thought Battle Mage was Town and don’t understand the discredit there from RTP.

[Andresvmb]

This game man. I honestly feel I’m flip flopping a bit hard since I had RTP as my top TR but I feel like Koba would maintain their SR of my slot instead of beginning to reverse it just because I expressed positive feelings there. Where’s the stubborn self-confident Koba I know?

[Andresvmb]

I’m still some ~300 posts behind so I need more time. I’m going to have to ISO some slots actually.

[Andresvmb]

why is BM town to you?

They came in and shared my view of Italiano for instance, and I didn’t see that vote hopping and pressure they were doing as coming from Scum. Like pressuring you with a vote and then moving it while asking questions just seemed like Towny behavior in a game that was somewhat stalled.

[Andresvmb]

im trying to remove the stubbornness from my play since its been holding me back. its the easiest thing for me to tap into when im scum though - you would know.

Yeah but it’s how I TR you. It’s much harder to do when you don’t behave stubbornly, and make wild pronouncements. Interestingly I liked that you were posting drunk there for a bit hahaha

[Andresvmb]

you saw me flip flop in our last game a lot - i was even then trying to change my stubbornness then.

Are you sure we’re talking about the same game? Convincing you about Cook was like pulling teeth.

[Andresvmb]

what do you think of GC @andres.

Ask me questions about individual players once I’m done catching up. That way I can get the context of posts when I ISO. Hard to do if I haven’t caught up completely.

[Andresvmb]

Another note. VPB and Datisi have a strange connection this game. The most obvious thing is that Datisi followed VPB both to Dunn and to RTP. I've also noticed reading through VPB a couple moments where VPB and Datisi were kind of just assuming each other's alignments, as if they already have knowledge of each other's alignments.

Idk if scum would really make it this obvious their connection to each other. I'm not going to jump to conclusions atm, but it is something interesting to note for later.

this is sorta the place im also looking at if one of GC/Elements ends up being town.
ive basically PoEd it down to 5 names i think. (if i reread both VP/Datisi and they're town that makes it even better)

GC/Elements/BM/VP/Datisi <- this PoE may likely win the game here.

if im FoSing another masonry here imma be big mad tbh. and if i AM please do not assume im scum for it bc i will always fos masons who are bad at pretending uninformed bc yall always play like u got an agenda to save ur mason partners and it makes it harder for town to scumhunt.

Okay if I was going to be critical of any post, it’s this.

There’s absolutely no way you think that POE wins. I don’t believe it for a second. I’m not going to even pretend to have a decent handle on this game. But a 5 person POE at this stage, while already declaring a potential switch onto other players if one of your main SRs flips Town, seems just plain Scummy. And you’re sheeping what me now and abandoning this POE?

[Andresvmb]

VPB and Datisi are not both Scum here. I’m going to go out on a limb and claim that’s impossible based on how they’ve played. GC yeah maybe is Scum, but if they’re not, then what? You agree one of Italiano/Duchess deserves some scrutiny then right? But no mention of that? I’m not following.

[Andresvmb]

after blatantly misreading me last game u should be more cautious u know?

Well my misread wasn’t that aggressive, and I am cautious around you. You’re good. But you *are* admitting that the view you expressed earlier this game was wrong? I’m just skeptical of the fluidity behind your views here that’s all. If it’s a deliberate attempt at moving away from your meta then I don’t know what you want me to do about that.

[Andresvmb]

Reformed Toxic Player (3): Battle Mage, VP Baltar, Datisi

Yeah like both Datisi and VPB aren’t voting for you RTP as Scum Partners. Like no way.

[Andresvmb]

i have a huge dislike of lotus' 869 bc it seems like half the posts are baltar asking someone about their negative read on someone else and lotus framing that as taking advantage / trying to get onto a misexe wagon. i was actually decently town on lotus bc i thought the arguments he was making against italiano rang honest but this is just... bad.

re: 871 - might come as a shocker, but (1) i townread baltar (2) i play town by working with my townreads. like yeah i'm assuming his alignment bc i think he's town?

Fascinating. We actually reached the same exact conclusion independently.

[Andresvmb]

Reformed Toxic Player (3): Battle Mage, VP Baltar, Datisi

Yeah like both Datisi and VPB aren’t voting for you RTP as Scum Partners. Like no way.

Why they are both very town read

If they’re both very TR, why would both risk that Town cred by being early on a Town wagon? I know I wouldn’t.

[Andresvmb]

Not saying it can’t happen btw. But if they’re both not feeling pressure, they would avoid linking themselves together in the early game is my feeling. Unless they both want to power wolf (and that’s exhausting), I think it’s totally reasonable to assume they’re at least not Partners.

[Andresvmb]

Not saying it can’t happen btw. But if they’re both not feeling pressure, they would avoid linking themselves together in the early game is my feeling. Unless they both want to power wolf (and that’s exhausting), I think it’s totally reasonable to assume they’re at least not Partners.

honestly i was never even thinking in this direction bc theres nearly nothing to suggest that those 2 are partners with eachother.

My point is a bit different. I’m critiquing the construction of that POE you put out there. I don’t think there was much thought put into it, outside of grouping some players that are skeptical of your slot {BM, VPB, Datisi} [and c’mon they’re not all Scum that’s like impossible], and some easier slots to push given the game state in {Elements, GC}, though I suspect you couldn’t get a GC execution through (and maybe that’s the point).

[Andresvmb]

Not saying it can’t happen btw. But if they’re both not feeling pressure, they would avoid linking themselves together in the early game is my feeling. Unless they both want to power wolf (and that’s exhausting), I think it’s totally reasonable to assume they’re at least not Partners.

honestly i was never even thinking in this direction bc theres nearly nothing to suggest that those 2 are partners with eachother.

My point is a bit different. I’m critiquing the construction of that POE you put out there. I don’t think there was much thought put into it, outside of grouping some players that are skeptical of your slot {BM, VPB, Datisi} [and c’mon they’re not all Scum that’s like impossible], and some easier slots to push given the game state in {Elements, GC}, though I suspect you couldn’t get a GC execution through (and maybe that’s the point).

i assumed both GC and elements wouldnt flip scum there

Okay but the rest of your POE is literally the three players that were voting you at the time. There is no way in hell you’re going to convince me there’s nothing fishy about that. Particularly after you had already stated that players tend to SR you. I can’t remember exactly if you proceed to disagree with RLotus on VPB while drunk immediately before or after that POE (I think it’s after), but just very clearly there’s something off about how you’re approaching this game I feel.

[Andresvmb]

ok i got to drunk and distracted - but pls dont vote VP i dont think htats scum

I think he is scum tho

pls trust the drunk koba i think vp town

Yeah it was after.

[Andresvmb]

can you cite a scum game of mine where my reads were this chaotic btw

No I can’t cite any game where you’ve been this chaotic at all. It’s confusing as hell to me. That’s why I’m struggling with how to read you.

[Andresvmb]

I'm not following.

I think more often than not you would not as Town look at three players voting you early in Day 1 and place all three in the POE, particularly when they’re all active and explaining themselves. There’s no chance in hell I would ever assume myself (unless I was some sort of genius and I’m not) that they’re all Scum or that they all deserve to be in the POE. The fact that you immediately went against one of those reads is confirmation enough that after you saw the votes, you realized just how unrealistic that position was.

[Andresvmb]

elements, do you have like, thoughts on things that are happening right now?

battle mage is town
vpb is town
rtp is rapidly becoming scummier
RL has also dropped in my reads

And well yeah I’m glad I moved away from Elements. I was a bit confused by the self-votes and didn’t like that early wall of reads, but this is exactly how I feel reading up to this point.

[Andresvmb]

On 786 RTP mentioned the stuff about his POE, and it looks like his scumread of BM started formulating on 787. The wagon on RTP didn't start until 799.

Is your theory that the entire Scum Team saw themselves placed on a POE by Koba and they all coordinated votes back to back onto them? Because I’ve seen some blatant Scum play in my day but this would absolutely take the cake.

[Andresvmb]

Regardless, RTP didn't see 3 people on their wagon and decide to POE them

That’s not what I said though. I just said the POE was poor, and I think Koba realized it and quickly changed tactic. I don’t see any other reason why Koba would quickly switch their read on VPB there while drunk. I don’t even think there’s much in the form of content from VPB to prompt the change. Just Koba doing some drinking.

[Andresvmb]

I think more often than not you would not as Town look at three players voting you early in Day 1 and place all three in the POE, particularly when they’re all active and explaining themselves.

That is what you are saying here no?

So Koba throws suspicion towards those slots, they all vote for Koba, and Koba places them all in the POE they identify as the winning POE after, only to hard go back on their read of VPB, and you are defending the POE? Am I getting this right?

[Andresvmb]

I'm just saying I don't think the POE had anything to do with the votes on them. Why he changed his read on VPB, I don't know.

Okay but you’re fighting an argument I’m not making. I said those slots were skeptical of Koba. Not that the POE came about because they were voting Koba.

[Andresvmb]

VPB had already posted 698 for example, and mind-melded with Datisi shortly thereafter.

[Andresvmb]

andres do u still fos lotus

Yes.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t think RLotus has demonstrated that at all to be totally honest. And what does being new have to do with anything? Some players can play Scum decently well. RLotus did a good job fooling people last game we played. They completely avoided being suspected aggressively and bussed effectively.

[Andresvmb]

can you respond to the lotus + GC question andres.

I already answered that once I’m caught up I’ll provide an opinion on GC when I have some time to ISO. I don’t see why I need to shift focus just yet.

[Andresvmb]

This I called him scummy for since he was already settling on a POE when so many alignments are up in the air.

How in the world can you post this and not criticize RTP/Koba for it and defend them now? I’m so confused.

[Andresvmb]

I didn't have nearly the aggression that game that I do this game, in fact my pushes were very soft, if you want to believe my self meta.

You agree that different games call for different approaches yeah? If you played exactly the same as Scum every time, you would make for a really poor Scum player. And from what I can gather, you don’t seem like a bad Mafia player at all to me.

[Andresvmb]

andres at which point did you realize i was koba?

When I wrote that I wouldn’t blow your spot.

[Andresvmb]

I'd like to point out that GC's been extremely vague about reasoning and cannot ellaborate when pushed on and starts talking in circles or just reverts to other points, or just points out shallow things

This feels very agenda’y’

I think this is a bit of a reach actually.

[Andresvmb]

Alright I’m going to stop around post ~1000 I’ll be back tomorrow I need to sleep.

[Andresvmb]

I’m back. Sorry about that - it’s been a super busy week for me.

I’ll try and completely catch up and give some additional thoughts.

[Andresvmb]

Btw I really do think Lotus is just Scum here.

[Andresvmb]

Vote VPB whenever you feel like voting for scum

Elements vote there looks pretty terrible. Although it doesn't make a lot of sense for him to do it to his partner, so if VPB does flip red, some slight town points to Elements. Same for VPB if Elements flips red.

The two main wagons are starting to look pretty bad to me

Just generally, this is what I have been getting - and this is all general and no I won’t link specific posts that’s hard enough to do and I just haven’t had time. My thoughts are a bit disorganized because I’ve been starting and going, and I haven’t really been able to read the progressions and the game in one straight shot. So that’s creating a lot of confusion for me.

I think {VPB, Datisi, RTP, Duchess, Elements} are Town. There’s varying reasons for this group in my head. {Datisi, VPB} are clearly trying to solve, don’t seem informed to me, and I can’t say I find them particularly objectionable (they’re also likely not aligned I think, and that has to do with how they’re treating each other). I’ve disagreed with Datisi on a few reads (most notably Italiano if I remember correctly) but overall yeah I’m okay with tone/approach. I think VPB has been irritable/solvey and they’re not backing from a fight (say for example, with Green Crayons). I think that’s likely coming from Town.

RTP is confusing the crap out of me. But a few things - they’ve exhibited genuine attempts at pursuing particular slots with no regard for how they come across (I can think of a few dogged fights with Battle Mage / Green Crayons / VPB / Datisi / Italiano just from the top of my head), they’ve been all over the place really (and it doesn’t immediately strike me as flip flopping for the sake of it - and really how does that help you as Scum?), and most importantly, there’s a lot of emotion coming from them (and it feels genuine, which already VPB and Datisi have spoken about). I do overall after a lot of thought can’t say I think RTP is Scum.

Duchess seems thoughtful to me, and Elements I have already made some points about but I do think that they’ve made some good arguments, and do come somewhat across as low hanging fruit in a way (they’ve self-voted repeatedly, openly admit to having little to contribute at times, etc.). So yeah RTP, you’ve SR here at different times and I think you’re wrong.

So, if you look at the game with those slots as Town, I’m starting to think that {Green Crayons, RLotus, Dunnstral} and to a lesser extent midwaybear all make sense as potential executions. Do I think this is totally correct? No, frankly I’m really uncertain on Italiano. I thought they were being wrongly pushed, and had some emotion I thought would be hard to fake as Scum, but they had a reachy argument about RTP I didn’t like, and I could just be wrong and some of my TRs right about the slot. Battle Mage has generally seemed good to me, but if I’m coming to the conclusion that RTP is Town, you have to question just how insistent Battle Mage has been there. But I mean I am also stubborn, so I don’t want to overly focus on that. And Dunn is frankly somewhat marginal. I don’t like how Dunn keeps insisting that their lurkiness is NAI. I mean, you’re intentionally making yourself hard to read.

There’s a lot that’s pinged me about RLotus. They made some point that I was trying to come in, appear like Town, and then dodge. But c’mon now, that’s straight up bullshit. They don’t like that I’ve been stubborn about their slot, and they’re trying to discredit me. It isn’t trying to figure out my alignment. And they have articulated that they think I make some good points every now and then, but I’m trying to come across as Town? Nonsense. If you think my pushes are bad that’s one thing. That doesn’t seem to be the main issue, but again I would need to read closer since I have bits and pieces of the game I haven’t gotten to.

[Andresvmb]

So I have the game something like this?

Lean Town
{RTP, VPBaltar, Datisi, Elements, Duchess}
Slight Lean Town
{Harumi Ayasato/maxwell, Testarossa/Battle Mage}
Neutral
{ItalianoVD, Green Crayons}
Slight Lean Scum
{RLotus, Lunar Martian/midwaybear, Dunnstral}

[Andresvmb]

I’m just going to come out and say - fully expect me to constantly re-evaluate upon flips and information. I’m doing my best here, but just generally speaking, I feel really uncomfortable in this game. There are some games where I get some Town reads and I think to myself okay this is a sufficiently strong anchor to move forward with. I am really not getting that vibe here. I could absolutely be misjudging multiple players here and just be completely wrong.

[Andresvmb]

And, why only a slight scum lean if you think this?

Because I would never be arrogant enough to assume that D1 my reads are golden. I don’t know how many times I need to say that I’m really uncertain in general. So why would I put anyone here as a strong read in either direction?

[Andresvmb]

Why doesn't this apply to me also?

You’ve been somewhat tunnely from what I can recall (Italiano, VPB, Me). It doesn’t help that I think all of those are wrong.

[Andresvmb]

How in the world have I tunneled you lol

After everything I’ve posted, this is what you’re going to say? It’s like you’re just trying to be dismissive.

[Andresvmb]

1326 - @Datisi to answer some of the stuff you asked me here. I don’t think I ever go Scum on that wagon, no idea who and stop trying. I make statements to frame my thinking and I try to narrow it down. It should be obvious to you know that I’m leaning most strongly at RLotus being that Scum I was referencing there. And we were on opposite sides of the Italiano discussion. That’s what I meant with you siding incorrectly.

[Andresvmb]

^obvious to you now*

[Andresvmb]

Datisi, Duchess, Elements, RTP, and VP Baltar.

:O

[Andresvmb]

No I'm asking how I have tunneled. Virtually every time mentioning you I express doubt that you are actually scum and I could be wrong, and haven't been focused on you.

And? It’s true about VPB/Italiano for sure. Less so about me. Though you’ve had me as a Scum Lean with some uncertainty for a bit (and I think it’s total crap).

[Andresvmb]

Which brings me to Andre who was seemingly trying to take advantage of town's division. His stubbornness when chatting with RTP and I gave me a bad initial vibe. It seems like he is deadset on scumreading the two of us rather than even entertaining that we are town. Some people just do this (me at times), but the impression I got from him in the last game I played with him is he spends a lot of time weighing both scenarios. Another thing is I get the impression that he pops in, does his due diligence to stay soemwhat townread, and dips out. As if he is maintaining his image rather than trying to solve the game.

Just, no. How am I trying to take advantage of Town’s division? This is a complete nonsense argument. I have NOT been stubborn about RTP. I think you’re purposefully attaching yourself to RTP here, since they’re always going to attract more attention than you and are far more likely to piss other players off. But I have been very much oscillating on my read on RTP and that is completely obvious. Like what a horrendous way of portraying my play.

[Andresvmb]

Btw I really do think Lotus is just Scum here.

can you just trust that we can sort that more in the long run - if they stay alive for a while they will show their colors more obviously - i do trust they are newer.

Honestly? No, I think you’re giving RLotus the benefit of the doubt because they’ve defended you, and you got sensitive about the attacks you’ve been getting from Battle Mage, but for example I don’t think Elements flips Scum (so why in the world would I compromise there), and I don’t really think VPB makes any sense right now (if anything I think that’s one slot that makes a lot of sense to wait on, and I’m TR’ing right now). Maxwell printed basically the same reads I have (so that seems entirely silly to me), so where exactly do you want me to vote?

[Andresvmb]

But the way you are pushing onto me seems like you aren't giving me a fair shake, like you are confident. This is why it feels bad to me, like you are pushing me for an agenda reason rather than actually trying to evaluate me. Why don't you express deliberation if you aren't sure, rather than attacking everything I post at you?

I have disagreed with basically every major action and push you’ve made this game. And I’ve explained why. I really don’t care how you feel about my slot or if it makes you think I have an agenda. It is what it is. I have a whole view of the game, and you make a decent amount of sense to me as Scum. I don’t know if it’s exactly you, but I don’t really know what else to do.

[Andresvmb]

But the way you are pushing onto me seems like you aren't giving me a fair shake, like you are confident. This is why it feels bad to me, like you are pushing me for an agenda reason rather than actually trying to evaluate me. Why don't you express deliberation if you aren't sure, rather than attacking everything I post at you?

I have disagreed with basically every major action and push you’ve made this game. And I’ve explained why. I really don’t care how you feel about my slot or if it makes you think I have an agenda. It is what it is. I have a whole view of the game, and you make a decent amount of sense to me as Scum. I don’t know if it’s exactly you, but I don’t really know what else to do.

So, your scum read of me boils down to disagreeing with my actions this game. Namely, my push on Italiano and then VPB, which you read them both town or not scum at least. Is that a fair summarization?

Somewhat. I think your arguments against VPB for example were bad (VPB went through them in detail and generally speaking I agree - you stated multiple times that they weren’t trying to solve for example which just rang like a generality and false), and your tunnel of Italiano (which you admitted but more recently seem to have backed off somewhat) just didn’t feel right to me. And since I’m TR’ing Elements and I know my alignment, I can’t say I think you’re Town.

[Andresvmb]

I don't see how lunar has been scummy - can you explain?

i've played with votato a lot - learning that the slot was votato actually clarified my read there.

That was so early and they just posted some reads flatly and then got replaced. Why are you so sure of that read? I don’t know if this is meant for me (probably Italiano) but I’m mighty confused as to why you’re holding on to that read so hard.

[Andresvmb]

I do not think that scum reading people because they have reads you disagree with and scum read people you find town is an effective strategy at finding scum.

Sure. But this is (again) mischaracterizing how I’m approaching the game. And you’re doing this a lot, frankly. I guess that’s the biggest reason I find you Scummy. You did this with VPB, you’ve done it to me, and you’ve done it with Italiano too. I am quite obviously trying to read through emotion as well (I’ve made multiple statements around this, and it’s obviously impacting my reads of Italiano and RTP), what I’m perceiving as sensible, honest arguments (I made this point about maxwell, I feel this way in a lot of instances when I’m reading Battle Mage, and I sense it coming from some of the discussions I’ve read from Elements and Datisi for instance), and I’m trying to make sense of positioning (which I’m noticing from you and actually, Green Crayons). If I was going to compromise anywhere, it would be there actually - I would vote for Green Crayons here too.

[Andresvmb]

I'm still here on RTP. Come back. It's warm and cozy. Or how about maxwell for lazily riding RTP's coattails in pushing a GC vote on weaksauce theory, after RTP early called his slot town.

Yeah I would nuke this too.

[Andresvmb]

if I had to have a PoE right now: italiano, dunn, andres(something doesnt feel right here), duchess, elements(just based on them falling off and my flip on my GC read here)

You know what I keep hoping for? I hope that one game, just one game, we both come in as Town, correctly read each other as Town, and play solidly from there. Outside of the very first time we played together (and you still kept going back and forth on me there), we’ve been unable to get on the same page. I don’t think you’re Scum here (I’m going to agree with VPB that you’ve put out way too much AtE for that and though I’ve seen you be manipulative, I don’t really believe you would do all that for a win). But you’re way too paranoid of me in general. I don’t know what it is. And it’s funny because I literally have yet to play Scum here.

I laughed at your comment about deleting the account if you’re 0/5 btw hahaha but nah that isn’t going to happen.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Green Crayons

[Andresvmb]

I’m off to bed. I’ll be around tomorrow night, and definitely for deadline. I have my view of where things are, and I’m going to try and stay faithful to that (unless something dramatic happens). I think we need to consolidate amongst a few options now - there’s some wagons that realistically are really not going to materialize, so I would encourage those players to reconsider. If I think my vote isn’t going anywhere, I’ll do the same. And I’m looking at you {Elements, Datisi} in particular to reconsider away from maxwell - that’s a crap wagon honestly. Midwaybear really should be putting a vote down too.

[Andresvmb]

why is it a crap wagon? i don't think i've yet to see something that said townie to me from max and i remember harumi being one of my first scummy gutpings this game.

You literally made my point in this post. It’s a crap wagon because you’re quite undecided about your read (though I think maxwell is Town), you guys aren’t really pushing hard for it, and it’s most likely not going to happen today. Outside of what I may think of the slot, there’s clearly not a whole lot of interesting in resolving there. So your vote is wasted.

[Andresvmb]

^whole lot of interest*

[Andresvmb]

Slight Lean Town
{Harumi Ayasato/maxwell

You didn't really explain this read.

I have, you just haven’t read all of my posts. Though some of it I suppose is implied. We seem to have a broadly similar view of the game. I know my perspective is Town right. And since they clearly came to some of these conclusions before I made any points public, they seem independent of any influence from me. So I’m going to lean positively overall.

[Andresvmb]

Counterpoint, andres, is I think resolving Italiano at least gives us some information given most people have stated some kinds of thoughts there.

I’m not going to disagree with you that flipping Italiano will resolve more than a few questions. That’s fair. I will say though, whenever I see that varying camps are looking to compromise somewhere, I very rarely get the feeling it’s the right choice. I would be more aggressive in defending Italiano if I was surer that they’re Town. I might want to ISO there and figure out bottom line what I think is going to happen. But I have to tell you - overall, I’m not particularly positive on it flipping Scum. But if you read the Large Normal I played recently, this is also not as obvious to me as flipping Nero was that game (where I was far more certain that it was a mistake).

[Andresvmb]

he was talking about my prior vote on max. which like, i disagree with it being wasted, because scum's gotta be somewhere, and at this point i don't have a problem voting for someone i don't townread.

We clearly have different philosophies about what makes sense, so I don’t want to get too bogged down on this. But to be transparent with you, you sitting alone or on a 2 person wagon as Town doesn’t help. To me, broadly speaking, it helps the Scum. Unless you’re able to convince people you’re correct (and I think you’re just wrong there but whatever), then it’s a total waste of time in my view. Yeah, Scum’s gotta be somewhere. But you’re giving the Scum more leverage to direct the execution if you take yourself out if you will by voting for a wagon that is unlikely to materialize (in my estimation).

[Andresvmb]

I might want to ISO there and figure out bottom line what I think is going to happen.

You don’t have to waste your time bro. You can just vote. If you’re town you’ll figure it out on Day 2

I’m just going to say that I am free to use my free time however I want haha

[Andresvmb]

i don't remember fighting with Baltar so what's this?

Yeah, I had no clue what this is referring to either. I assume some misremembering.

Yeah, sorry. I meant these arguments:
1051 - Duchess
1146 - RLotus

Trying to keep track of who is fighting who is not the easiest from memory.

[Andresvmb]

no mention of Harumi/maxwell in the town reads but also left off elim pool. what's up?

Uhm, I have definitely tried to place everyone in my head and express a read. I have a whole silly pyramid I built with literally everybody’s name on it. So I’m not sure where this is coming from. I made one adjustment after the pyramid I posted which is to switch you with midway (and I’m partly influenced by RTP you could say on that one).

[Andresvmb]

last minute wagons can materialize and hit scum idm datisi voting his heart

I have yet to see a CFD in this forum lead to Scum I have to say. But there’s always room for a surprise.

[Andresvmb]

last minute wagons can materialize and hit scum idm datisi voting his heart

I have yet to see a CFD in this forum lead to Scum I have to say. But there’s always room for a surprise.

Cfd?

Chinese Fire Drill.

[Andresvmb]

Obviously it’s not going to fail every time. But it always feels random to me. It leaves the game at the mercy of the most active players, and if you have good Scum, it leads to some bad conclusions typically.

[Andresvmb]

We clearly have different philosophies about what makes sense

why does this feel like a lowkey insult

It’s not an insult. And I haven’t checked the rules but I tend to be a lot less forgiving of this attitude when a majority is needed for an execution. If you just need plurality, then I tend to be far more stubborn about my vote (and would wholeheartedly endorse your strategy). I just remember that most games here need majorities so I try and push for consolidation more aggressively.

[Andresvmb]

I think VPB has been irritable/solvey and they’re not backing from a fight (say for example, with Green Crayons)

i don't remember fighting with Baltar so what's this?

So, if you look at the game with those slots as Town, I’m starting to think that {Green Crayons, RLotus, Dunnstral} and to a lesser extent midwaybear all make sense as potential executions.

no mention of Harumi/maxwell in the town reads but also left off elim pool. what's up?

no mention of Harumi/maxwell in the town reads but also left off elim pool. what's up?

Uhm, I have definitely tried to place everyone in my head and express a read. I have a whole silly pyramid I built with literally everybody’s name on it. So I’m not sure where this is coming from. I made one adjustment after the pyramid I posted which is to switch you with midway (and I’m partly influenced by RTP you could say on that one).

Yeah I saw your pyramid in 1536 but your big substance post of narrowing down your elim pool was in 1535 and 1535 didn’t mention harumi/max. Just wanted to know basis for your read on the slot. If you put it somewhere I missed it so just link me to it and call me dumb.

1608

And it’s obviously not dumb since VPB also asked it.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah, I definitely agree. I'm not confident at all in this being the right choice, but if I'm going to compromise, at least I'm voting with my top town read.

You’re also voting with your top Scum Read if I don’t have it wrong. Right?

[Andresvmb]

Are you asking me why I'm not voting him right now?

more or less, yeah.

People are smart they’ll figure it out.

so you *are* being bussed, thanks!

I really hope Italiano is Scum, only because if not, these sorts of posts are going to look so Scummy in retrospect.

[Andresvmb]

Ignore the part where Datisi would be stating the obvious if Italiano is in fact Scum. It’s the dismissive attitude (and the appearance of piling on hard) that will be tough to overlook if wrong. That’s all I’m telling you. I never understand these seemingly smug statements D1.

[Andresvmb]

I would like to hear andre's thoughts before we end the day if possible

I’m almost sure Dunn is going to flip Town. I don’t know if that’s what you want to hear. But it’s definitely what’s going to happen.

[Andresvmb]

And if anybody thinks {VPB, Datisi, Green Crayons, RLotus} are all Town and voting correctly here after how yesterday went, then you’re a fool. And the speed?

C’mon guys. What’s going on?

[Andresvmb]

Yeah I agree for this reason I think there is a reasonable chance there is no scum on that wagon or one at most maybe.

This is garbage. I would say the exact opposite - there’s at least one Scum on that wagon for sure. The same core of folks pushed RTP and Italiano. But nah, everybody is Town? What are you blind?

Is anybody paying any attention to anything RTP even posted?

[Andresvmb]

If as a Town we eliminate Dunn this quickly, then you might as well expect me to slack going forward. Because that would be horrible. Can we at least give this day a chance? Whoever is Town on that wagon should Unvote. Give players a proper chance to re-read and post like Cookie Monster who says they’ll post their thoughts. The timer between days ran so long that I didn’t feel like doing much in between to be honest. But this feels almost intended to cause Town apathy - and if you’re helping it, you should seriously reconsider.

[Andresvmb]

@VPB have your views changed at all now that you see the same folks that pushed Italiano come out for Dunn? Or you think your read there is correct still?

[Andresvmb]

Hi andres~

Hey Mom. I want the same as Dunn actually - some sort of explanation as to why you thought Battle Mage’s posts were Scummy. Because I actually didn’t agree.

[Andresvmb]

@maxwell can I trust you here? I honestly don’t trust any of you right now, and I need some sort of anchor in this game. I was TR’ing you yesterday slightly but I’m not sure you’re clear since you landed on ItalianoVD.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah I agree for this reason I think there is a reasonable chance there is no scum on that wagon or one at most maybe.

This is garbage. I would say the exact opposite - there’s at least one Scum on that wagon for sure. The same core of folks pushed RTP and Italiano. But nah, everybody is Town? What are you blind?

Is anybody paying any attention to anything RTP even posted?

VPB and Datisi are pretty strong townreads for me at this point. The way the wagon formed started with RTP then Datisi, VPB, and I jumped on. Assuming VPB and Datisi are town, what reason does scum have for voting there? It seems like they would just be incriminating themselves after Italiano flips town and better off staying off.

If there are compelling reasons to believe VPB and/or Datisi are scum then I can see that perspective.

This is a horrible take and you’re wrong. It’s like asking - what reason does Scum have for voting Town?

[Andresvmb]

@RLotus how do you know that Town were just going to flop onto Italiano? I don’t think I was going to vote there. I would have already by the time that the wagon was holding up had I believed it to be correct. You can never really be sure that a particular wagon was going to go through. And that’s the point.

Also, how are VPB and Datisi your strongest TRs? That’s nonsensical. I don’t think both are Scum I’ll say that. But your strongest TRs? Really? RTP was leaning more positively on VPB, so I can maybe see that one. Datisi? No chance in hell. You’re just not reading then.

[Andresvmb]

There were two viable alternatives in my mind to Italiano yesterday that could have gone through actually - You RLotus, and Green Crayons. I was more skeptical of Green Crayons actually succeeding but I warmed up to it at the end, as I expressed to RTP. So yeah the final vote was all scattered outside of Italiano but I don’t think that’s a true reflection of the game state.

[Andresvmb]

I also though Italiano wasn't playing in a PR-indicative way, which is why I'm so annoyed he selfhammered without a claim.

When I read that they had refused to claim, I thought it was clear that they were a PR or Scum actually. A VT probably just claims because it doesn’t change anything. So it wouldn’t have saved Italiano I don’t think. That’s my take - but maybe it would have meant some players unvote then I don’t know.

[Andresvmb]

Frankly I think I’m alive and RTP is dead because yeah, you could be Town Lotus. But you’re just way off. Voting with the same people that lead to Town multiple times just doesn’t make any sense. Where’s your sense of skepticism?

[Andresvmb]

Dunn's unexplained aversion to voting Italiano at that point pinged me at the time as him possibly voting a scum buddy for future town cred.

Okay but Italiano flipped Town so how is this remotely relevant?

[Andresvmb]

You seem confident in the fact that Dunn is town. What is your view on the game currently?

This is not a great way to put it. I don’t have confidence that the player is Town. If I was reading Dunn in a vacuum, I would have them as null at best. They’re not really contributing much, and they haven’t posted a whole lot.

But do they seem like the logical conclusion to RTP and Italiano both flipping Town to you? Not to me. And why is the same group of folks just happy to run them up today? I would like to focus some attention on all of the slots that pushed Italiano and/or RTP at different times. And there’s some. I also trust RTP’s intuition, even when they were scattered. I think there’s some good pushes in there. Had RTP been all wrong they don’t get killed (or if they’re effectively pocketed).

[Andresvmb]

Dunn's unexplained aversion to voting Italiano at that point pinged me at the time as him possibly voting a scum buddy for future town cred.

Okay but Italiano flipped Town so how is this remotely relevant?

You kidding? You know scum know who the town are, right?

You said you were SR’ing Dunn and midwaybear. Today. But your explanation is something that literally didn’t happen. So what are you saying exactly?

[Andresvmb]

Like how can you possibly know they’re both Scum? And that Dunn decided to land on midwaybear at the end of the day for “future Town cred”? Why are you so willing to give all of the early Italiano pushers a pass? Is it because you were one of them too?

[Andresvmb]

outside of the start of the day, rtp was consistently townreading me

This isn’t strictly true, since they actually were voting you at one point.

[Andresvmb]

also i believe you haven't answered me some stuff from yesterday.

If you want an answer to something ask it now. I am not going to go back and look for questions I may have missed.

[Andresvmb]

No I'm not saying I was scum reading midway. I'm saying that is one possible answer for Dunn's avoiding an inevitable wagon.

You could make this point about literally anyone not voting Italiano at the end of the day.

[Andresvmb]

Probably should check your facts on that

You’re voting with them on Dunn. What do I have wrong in your view? I’m just trying to understand - why are you so confident you’re right when all of you were so wrong yesterday?

[Andresvmb]

i mean like
ok

let's imagine town!italiano for a moment. from his pov, you got me. this annoying fucker who keeps calling you scum right. you're being voted. you go "ok vote me out then catch the scum on my wagon on day 2". who is scum on his wagon? no clue. his green flip will "give insight" on those who weren't on him. what insight? none.

like if you're town and you're being voted you already know your own alignment you know the votes are wrong. if you're showing some thought about the game ("there's scum on my wagon") then surely you're actually thinking about who tf is the scum on your wagon. and i'm trying to get it out of him, like i'm trying to provoke him into actually giving a response.

(a) in response, he actually gives insight on who he thinks is scum, who isn't scum, shows any sign of a will to live, or even tells me to go fuck myself, idk literally anything
(b) he shuts down, goes "people will figure it out", and shuts up again bc of fear of spweing partners

what do you think, which way does (b) cut?

I don’t have any confidence you can correctly point out the Scum at this point. So I’m going to formulate my own views while I buy some time. Ending the day quickly and not letting any of the players sitting on the periphery just remain so is not going to help long-term.

[Andresvmb]

???
i'm not trying to "end the day quickly", i'm voting who i find suspicious, and i already said if there's a lolhammer they're getting policied tomorrow

I didn’t accuse you of wanting to end the day quickly. But multiple votes all quickly piling on absolutely risks that possibility. And we’re not really in a good enough place to want to see that happen.

[Andresvmb]

The problem here is that everybody is looking at the game as if Italiano was the inevitable conclusion to the day and no one else had any chance of getting voted out. But I don’t remember it feeling like that at all. I thought Italiano ended up being the execution because, yes, to some extent none of the alternatives really mustered enough support. That’s obviously the case. But it’s not like no one else was suspected or pushed, or that no one thought Italiano could possibly flip Town. We really don’t think the Scum sealed the outcome in any way? If the Scum felt no pressure during the day, then yeah maybe they didn’t care to create any sort of stir and they just let the Town eat themselves. And that does happen a lot around here so I might just be overly positive on folks in general. But given the player list, I want to believe this is not true.

I think the loudest pushers for anything are probably Town here anyway because well, it’s how it tends to be. But I will be damned if I don’t at least push people to think a little harder about what’s happening.

[Andresvmb]

and rn im looking between andres/datisi for most likely scum.

theres a reason i think pearl fey is town but i wanna wait to reveal it to see if that wagon builds cuz i wanna see game state before i out it cuz i think its relatively strong of a reason to townread them.

do you wanna say anything about it?

@rtp, i don't like being ignored.

I think you're a bit too complacent + just ur energy feels off from when I have seen you as town.

@rtp, i am correct to assume that you're getting to my 205, right? also interested in hearing why harumi is town.

ur whole energy is complacent - its not just 1 post its the way u present urself.

i cant just quote 1 post - its the whole collection of them that screams it to me.

rtp, why are you asking me that when you still refuse to work with me?

I'm not sure where I'm refusing to work with you.

I don't think its unreasonable for me to ask what your progression on a slot has been.

i think italiano is v towny here

I feel as though if i am right on elements/GC then datisi/vp contain last maf based on how quick they both reacted to my fos on those 2 - please sheep this if both elements and GC indeed flip scum.

The idea that RTP had Datisi consistently as Town is obvious horseshit.

[Andresvmb]

nope, that's true. i was an rvs vote (that's the only time they voted me), which they kept for a little bit, then decided i'm probtown and never included me in the poe. so.

This is literally incorrect as I just pointed out. So you did argue it, and are wrong. So please stop.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Green Crayons

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Dunn

Works for me.

I will not be consolidating onto Dunn. Sorry.

[Andresvmb]

outside of the start of the day, rtp was consistently townreading me

This isn’t strictly true, since they actually were voting you at one point.

nope, that's true. i was an rvs vote (that's the only time they voted me), which they kept for a little bit, then decided i'm probtown and never included me in the poe. so.

andres, that's not what i'm arguing. i'm arguing tehy had me consistently as town *after a certain point* - i believe it was somewhere around me voting them, or a bit later. like i k n o w they suspected me for a while on d1

And these are far from the same. Like obviously not the same. So the second one is just revisionist history once you get called out on your bullshit. Because the first post is that - bullshit.

[Andresvmb]

the "oh if italiano flips then datisi looks bad bc datisi was smug" (i think) stuff. like *why* is that scummy to you

You were clearly trying to convince whoever expressed any doubt that Italiano was Scum. And you did it repeatedly. Even making the argument that if they were Town, they weren’t that useful (implicitly - particularly in that long post I quoted on this page), so what’s the harm? Why would I TR you for all of that?

[Andresvmb]

which brings me back to asking why are you singling me out like that, acting as if they didn't have a townread on me at all. (and like, i'm going with the assumption that someone's reads in the later part of the day trump those in the earlier part.)

I’m not just singling you out. But you’re voting Dunn while thinking everything is good and dandy when you were so obviously wrong D1 and you don’t seem to even want to re-evaluate what happened. I would say that applies to a lot of the Dunn voters who’ve remained where they are actually. And you were vocal and wrong - and seemed smug about it. You should feel the need to re-read and make some arguments and you’ve made a basic one about Dunn and that’s it. Do you agree with RLotus that there’s few chances of there being Scum on the Italiano wagon? Do you really believe that’s the universe we’re in right now? And what are the rest of your reads?

[Andresvmb]

if you think my arguments were bad, fine, say that and let's discuss it, but i don't feel like that's the argument you're making?

What is there to discuss? Italiano is dead and it’s in large part because of you. So unless you want to actually express some more detailed reads all around, why would I not put you on the spot? You deserve it.

[Andresvmb]

Where is @Elements? I want to see what you think now.

[Andresvmb]

Dunn's unexplained aversion to voting Italiano at that point pinged me at the time as him possibly voting a scum buddy for future town cred.

Okay but Italiano flipped Town so how is this remotely relevant?

You kidding? You know scum know who the town are, right?

You said you were SR’ing Dunn and midwaybear. Today. But your explanation is something that literally didn’t happen. So what are you saying exactly?

No I'm not saying I was scum reading midway. I'm saying that is one possible answer for Dunn's avoiding an inevitable wagon.

Also then why is Dunn again voting for midway then? Do you think it’s a Partner that is insisting that their buddy is Scum? They could easily pivot somewhere else if that were the case no? Do you think there’s no chance midway gets flipped here?

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

I’m going to need more from you than this, that’s for sure.

[Andresvmb]

you didn't like my push on italiano. ok. italiano flipped green i was wrong. ok no shit. i'm asking how/why you're reading it as scum shitpush vs town genuinepush. like i'm not saying i shouldn't be put on the spot. i'm asking to see your thought process.

I just hate your smugness about it. I do. Green Crayons and VPB both expressed doubts (which btw makes me thing you’re the one with the genuine push and they’re the potential Scum), but I’m getting constantly annoyed about being in these games and not really being able to form a solid Town core early. I dislike that you didn’t re-evaluate there at all even after Italiano’s emotional content skyrocketed, and were so dismissive about the whole thing.

[Andresvmb]

i don't think green played a part in that at all?

If I remember correctly, RTP’s strongest SR was GC, and they were in most of their solves.

[Andresvmb]

room-temperature take: italiano is hoping that the "i give up" ate makes townies defend him / reconsider

also if he flips scum i'd bet good

money

brownie points that he's being bussed rn

Yeah I mean that’s what bothered me but why I asked for his explanation re town POV.

Green Crayons might not have voted Italiano, but they definitely left themselves open. And they expressed a TR at times but they were happy to discredit at others as well.

[Andresvmb]

Post 1378 and Post 1429 echoed suspicions i had about RTP at the time.

i've put a pause on my RTP suspicions for reasons, so this is a "other player voiced reasons to suspect RTP that mirrored my own reasons" read

And once Italiano becomes a near certainty, this comes out? And you’re not suspicious?

[Andresvmb]

ok so i was working under the assumption that you hating my smugness = scumreading it but now i'm confused. can you lay out what's your read on me right now?

I’m skeptical that you have the game right, I don’t think Dunn will flip Scum, and I’m just generally annoyed that there’s so much... passivity in this game. I don’t have you as Scum right now. But I don’t like arguments that are easily disproven either. Trying to discredit me by making an argument that was false IS annoying. I am not just blindly going to follow along here. I want to see people be aggressive and push to figure out what’s going on. 6 votes so quickly on Dunn - does that seem like an engaged Town to you?

[Andresvmb]

but i think my question still stands. you seem to insist on going back and keep calling the wagon bad - who do you think is the scum on it then?

I don’t want to reveal this just yet. We need more content - and I’m trying to avoid getting into a shit fight with everybody because that doesn’t help either.

[Andresvmb]

i preferred elements over VD, but still had them both on town side of the line. i would've voted either to avoid no elim, obviously.

So who is Scum to you then?

[Andresvmb]

that said i'm still not satisfied with your response. if you don't have me as scum, why was your reaction so (for a lack of a better word) sour in 1779 when talking about me?

I’m sour because if you’re not Scum, it’s someone you TR and they’re hiding behind you. And I find this whole situation somewhat annoying because the odds of me not just pointing who that is but then convincing enough people to trust me here are just... not great. I guess I’m already annoyed at how difficult I see the path ahead? But haha it is what it is I suppose. Though VPB saying I’m full of shit I believe is a decent start.

[Andresvmb]

Aight I’m done. Make it happen max, so I can finally end this day.

if he had something to claim, he would have already.

Not claiming.

it was literally a couple of posts above your vote on midway

i don't think it's fair to say "not my fault nobody cared" when it's kinda obvious you didn't *try* to convince anyone

Are you really arguing that Dunn had a strong enough voice D1 to direct what was going to happen? That seems misguided to me.

[Andresvmb]

Like how can you possibly know they’re both Scum? And that Dunn decided to land on midwaybear at the end of the day for “future Town cred”? Why are you so willing to give all of the early Italiano pushers a pass? Is it because you were one of them too?

This is such a bad post, btw.

I never said I know for a fact midway and dunn are scum. I offered a theory that I think makes a lot of sense. The shade at the end of your post is also completely unfounded. I never gave a free pass to people on that wagon, nor am I asking for a free pass. You're making an awful lot of innuendo with zero reason other than...

*Checks notes*

..I still think my top scum read is scum.

Meh. I think you’re being overly confrontational here. I don’t trust that the same set of folks that lead to nowhere are going to lead somewhere this time around. And that makes me suspicious why? So Italiano not being to point to exactly who was Scum on their wagon wasn’t enough proof that maybe, just maybe, Town have a feeling when they’re being pushed in bad faith but can’t exactly point to who?

[Andresvmb]

I counter by asking you who else was a viable yeet? As someone who tried to get traction other places, I assure you it was not easy.

If I remember correctly, deadline wasn’t some hours away. There was more than a full day left. My point is that with enough discussion, you never know what can happen. And there had been multiple votes for Green Crayons and RLotus even. Are you dismissing every other wagon that day as not viable? Because that seems laughable to me.

[Andresvmb]

So Italiano not being to point to

Not being able to*

[Andresvmb]

why is this day not over

I’m going to be completely honest. I hate this post. I really do. It reminds me of every time I see impatient Scum in games that don’t want the wagon to move anywhere else. It’s really too bad I’m not good enough at this game to say this with any confidence.

[Andresvmb]

there is something rubbing me the wrong way about this, considering you were quick to yell at me yesterday when i was voting maxwell because "that wagon wasn't happening, we need to consolidate because it's majority, you're being anti-town by being on a 1-2 vote wagon". also like, at that point the game was pretty dead, with the day going for like 14 days.

I mean haha sure. I was yelling at you to consolidate somewhere that was plausible, really. You would be hard pressed to find anybody here who would argue that maxwell was remotely likely to be executed yesterday. So what’s your point? If you didn’t agree, you would have kept your vote there.

I just think there’s some nuance here that appears to be getting lost. I wasn’t like running around saying we need ensure a majority by voting and executing Italiano. You must at least agree with that. So clearly I was looking for options outside of that, and the only way to make that happen was by seeing others consolidate. With a completely scattered vote, then you make it impossible to find alternatives to the current trajectory. In a way, that’s what’s happening here too. You again have multiple votes in myriad places, and some concentration on Dunn.

All I’m seeing is a bunch of excuses as to why we executed Town at the end of the day. The only reason a wagon even built there to begin with was because of faulty arguments - arguments that you must at least recognize RTP for example fought against, even if they ended up voting for Italiano and not believing how they constructed their end of day reads list. And the wagon against Italiano seemed to fade at one point, only to resurface. There’s definitely Scum there, and that’s why I am not entirely comfortable with the same set of folks dictating what happens today.

[Andresvmb]

So andres, comparing the Italiano wagon to the Dunn wagon, it looks like the only overlap is Datisi, Lotus and myself, right?

So you think there is definitely scum in that group who is leading a speed yeet D2?

Yes. I would be floored if you were all Town.

[Andresvmb]

cookie's readslist feels awfully forced. i feel like the reads description was copy/pasted 10 times over because (other than the elements one) i feel like none of them are actually saying anything.

Can you be more specific? What read doesn’t make sense to you? Like what is forced or insincere about it?

[Andresvmb]

So andres, comparing the Italiano wagon to the Dunn wagon, it looks like the only overlap is Datisi, Lotus and myself, right?

So you think there is definitely scum in that group who is leading a speed yeet D2?

Yes. I would be floored if you were all Town.

Alternatively you could argue that you’re all bad Mafia players. That could also be the case since I believe all of you voted for RTP at different times. Up to you what you want me to argue.

[Andresvmb]

^actually I checked - RLotus didn’t vote for RTP or at least I couldn’t find a vote. And from what I can tell, they had RTP as Town. So if Dunn flips Town, I’m going to agree with one of RTP’s early POEs that one of {Datisi, VPB} has one Scum.

[Andresvmb]

So if Dunn is flipped and they flip Town, I’m going to really struggle picturing a world where you’re both Town. I don’t think that’s particularly likely in such a situation.

[Andresvmb]

Regardless, that’s quite speculative right now. I am trying to be more realistic. Scum tend not to be so loud. You guys are being loud. I think there’s Scum hiding behind you. And I would be amazed if the Italiano wagon was pure.

[Andresvmb]

Ended up being a busier weekend than I thought. I’ll get back to this later today.

[Andresvmb]

I have more pressing matters atm, I'll get to this game "properly" when that's dealt with

Is this ever going to happen?

[Andresvmb]

i'll get to your other stuff tomorrow. i'm decently confused about your recent posts, claiming you'd be floored if dats/baltar(/lotus) was all town, then turning around and calling that speculative because we're being loud and scum often isn't loud. i feel like i need to review your d1 again which i do not have the brain cells for right now

I tried to explain this I believe but maybe I wasn’t clear. I would be floored if you were all Town in the universe that Dunn is Town. Because then that’s two consecutive executions of relatively easier players to push lead by a combination of the group I highlighted plus a few other actors.

[Andresvmb]

i feel like i'm reading... needless aggression from you here. not quite sure what to make of it, i'll have wait until you elaborate on your "there's scum in this group" vs "probably not because you're being loud" arguments. i don't get them.

For this, I’m going to have to re-read D1. And a bit like you, it feels like a drag and I haven’t gotten around to doing that carefully. But anyway, I am trying to do two things at the same time.

Given what I’ve seen and read, I don’t think I can, at this point in time, narrow down the Scum (if there indeed is one) between {You, RLotus, VPB}. You and VPB keep throwing skepticism my way, voted for RTP, and ended up on Italiano (and were somewhat tunneled), whereas RLotus thinks I’m obvTown today, called me Town yesterday as well, and did not end up on Italiano. There are enough other players that think that I’m Town that I think one of two strategies could be playing out (if I may say so): either whoever is the Scum is trying to disagree with me, but not attack me directly (since I’m being TR by a lot of players in the game), or I’m being hard TR to be pocketed. For me to feel like I have a better sense of the game, I’m going to have to see probably some more flips and reactions. That’s the truth.

On the other hand, I feel it’s entirely sensible to push some of the players RTP was skeptical of already. RTP thought Green Crayons was Scum throughout most of the day, included them in most POEs, and I also thought had some bad interactions (if you take the view that Duchess / GC was SvT, and given the fact that multiple votes piled onto Duchess, then it’s not out of the question that GC could be Scum just from that). I think pushing there is entirely warranted. I haven’t seen anything today that would make me reconsider either. That’s where I ended up yesterday, and that’s where I’m voting today as of now.

[Andresvmb]

I still don't see scum in VPB and Datisi after reconsidering. After reading a couple VPB games, it seems like he has a tendency to try to discredit people pushing on him as town. At first I thought it was scummy, but I think that is town behavior for him.

I still have this lingering gut paranoia about him regardless. Maybe he could be a deepwolf here? I dunno I guess I can't shake the feeling I got day 1. Anyway, he's in my townblock.

This actually makes no sense to me. So I’m going to say I think it’s coming from Town.

I mean, you say that a player that is discrediting those that question them after they’ve made a consistently bad push, and gives you bad vibes, is in your Town block, but could be deep Scum? What Scum doesn’t try to take advantage of these points unless they’re taking about a Partner?

[Andresvmb]

You know VD is town which is why you preemptively defended him against a threat level 1 question.

Looking back, I find this Scummy.

GC was trying to consistently build a case against Duchess, who was criticizing GC’s line of questioning of Italiano. At first, GC makes the point that Duchess is trying to defend a Partner, and that they’re both Scum. But once Italiano takes offense at Duchess’ “defense” (Duchess seemed to insist that they weren’t defending Italiano but only criticizing GC’s approach), and turns around and votes Duchess, GC drops that line and argues that Duchess *knows* Italiano is Town, and is basically White Knighting Italiano and putting them (GC) in a bad spot. Now that we know that Italiano is in fact Town, this feels very much to me like Scum that is trying to take advantage of a situation to paint another player as Scum at all costs. Because well, didn’t this merit some reconsideration perhaps a little sooner? It came later, if I remember correctly, but only after the wagon on Duchess didn’t quite work out, and the attention shifted decidedly against Italiano. I am going to rely a little less on my memory and see if this played out how I remember it, but it is something worth returning to.

[Andresvmb]

If I’m wrong on GC btw, I would flip {Duchess/Cookie Monster, RLotus}. I think that would make a lot of sense.