Open 465 - Wot's... Uh the Deal? (Game Over! Town Win!)

[Adam-12]

/confirm

[Adam-12]

One more WOOT! C'mon!!

[Adam-12]

Do you guys know each other from previous games?

[Adam-12]

I don't RVS as I see you didn't either.

His response read to me as familiar with the ":P".

Did you scan all players to see who was around?

[Adam-12]

Ya, I went to sleep.

[Adam-12]

@Levi: Why did you prolong the pre-game?

[Adam-12]

@Shrimp: So is your vote serious or not, I can't seem to tell...

[Adam-12]

Mala didn't sound sarcastic to me...

[Adam-12]

How long have you been playing Mafia Levi?

[Adam-12]

@Levi: Well, you are better than when you first started. So use the wisdom you have acquired and play your best!

[Adam-12]

@Shrimp: What gave you the idea that Mala was being sarcastic?

[Adam-12]

Well, I assumed it was sarcastic, because it just seemed so ridiculous to vote someone (seriously) because of that in the start of the game.
Maybe I was wrong.
If I was wrong, then I guess my vote would have turned from a semi-serious vote to a serious vote.

I don't understand. How would Mala being serious about Levi make your vote serious for Mollie??

[Adam-12]

@Shrimp: How long have you been playing Mafia?

[Adam-12]

I think I will do this:

Vote Shrimp

Vote Count

Levianthan93 (L-4): Malakittens

Pirate Mollie (L-3): Shrimp85, ProHawk
Shrimp85 (L-2): Pirate Mollie, Adam-12, Malakittens

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[Adam-12]

@Mala: How much do you remember playing with Mollie? Was she town or scum?

[Adam-12]

I reviewed Shrimp's overall post history and I seriously don't think he believes what he is posting itt.

[Adam-12]

By the way, Leviathon, the mafia use quicktopic to chat to each other.
I was told that the mafia could only use it at night.
But it's a seperate website, so I don't understand how it would be possible to NOT be able to chat during the day.
I'mma just ask the mod...

@MOD, could you explain a wee bit about this? thanks

This quote would demonstrate someone that is a "complete newb" to mafia and someone that is not familiar with how things work here. I think that he has far more experience that what he is portraying here; i.e. he's not a complete newb to Mafia or this site.

I also think he used the Levi issue as an excuse to vote for Mollie disingenuously.

[Adam-12]

I think he has also tried to avoid responsibility for all this by claiming to be drinking.

[Adam-12]

Also in Werewolf, it is commonly referred to as Villager.

[Adam-12]

@Mollie: What is your read on Hawk so far?

[Adam-12]

So you guys have played together before?

[Adam-12]

is this a question for the sake of a question?

@Shrimp: So is your vote serious or not, I can't seem to tell...

If you read his vote post he at the same time mentions his vote as RVS in a playful manner & as a serious vote for a scum tell. I hold that as disingenuous voting where he can swing responsibility both ways. So, no not a useless question at all.

[Adam-12]

No, first time together. Adam, whats your read on mollie?

I don't like the process she went through to vote Levi and if she is scum I read her as very calm and collected scum. Her demeanor would indicate that is possible for her.

[Adam-12]

Which reminds me:

@Mollie: Why did you switch your vote from Levi?

[Adam-12]

Not at all. In both cases valuable information was concluded from that question.

[Adam-12]

is this a question for the sake of a question?

@Shrimp: So is your vote serious or not, I can't seem to tell...

If you read his vote post he at the same time mentions his vote as RVS in a playful manner & as a serious vote for a scum tell. I hold that as disingenuous voting where he can swing responsibility both ways. So, no not a useless question at all.

It looked like shrimp maybe voted molly just as a joke at first. but then, when it was brought to his attention that malakitten was actually serious about her vote on leviathan for not confirming right away, and then saw molly's post where she somewhat furthered the idea by asking mala if it was because she thought leviathan wanted more time in pre scum chat... then his vote turned to a serious one.

i don't know if that makes sense.

guess what i'm trying to say is that i don't find shrimp all that suspicious. and i am wondering about molly myself.

Did you read the link that Mala provided about this?

[Adam-12]

@Mantis: Or let me put it another way, you don't think scum would not confirm because they are chatting in the Q/T & would be otherwise occupied? Isn't it a reasonable motivation for ultimately falling asleep instead of confirming?

[Adam-12]

Well, lets let everyone settle in so we can discuss it.

[Adam-12]

Well the "otherwise occupied" is what really sticks for me.

[Adam-12]

Its a major wagon atm.

[Adam-12]

Well the "otherwise occupied" is what really sticks for me.

Yea... but when it all comes down to it, do you think it's a good solid reason for a vote?

Yes.

[Adam-12]

Its a major wagon atm.

Ok, forget it.

Levi is obviously town, his explanation proves that whereas Shrimp's explanation proves he is scum.

The point is that the original case on Levi IS a good reason to vote (the only problem is Levi is town).

[Adam-12]

Ya well, there is no reason not to bring it out I guess, I think everyone here (and anyone else reading this thread later) knows that Levi is town.

[Adam-12]

Ya, that's why I tend to like querying people before voting them.

[Adam-12]

Ok that leaves Guille who has posted on site but not here.

[Adam-12]

Vote Count
Pirate Mollie (L-3): Shrimp85, ProHawk
Shrimp85 (L-3): Pirate Mollie, Adam-12

Not Voting: Code, Guille, Levi, Mantis, Mala

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[Adam-12]

Mod: Can you do the votecount like this? ^^^

I knew I was missing something...

[Adam-12]

Explain how your vote turns from a semi-serious vote to a serious vote? I don't completely understand.

Where did you learn about this quick topic?

My vote turns serious mode because I find the reason to vote Leviathon very lacking.

This is not an explanation to the specific question of why your vote

turned

serious; its obvious that you found the case (erroneously) lacking on Levi. The question is actually:

Why did your vote turn serious once you discovered that Mala wasn't being sarcastic.

And btw, how in the heck could you even see Mala as being sarcastic in the first place?? These statements of yours lack a genuine feel to them and I think you made them so you could justify yourself in your vote for Mollie which you appeared to be having some self-conscious trouble with.

And for the second question, Adam-12 should be able to answer this question if he actually DID read my history.
In my first game the discussion about quicktopic came up. Check it for yourself if you like.

@MOD, could you explain a wee bit about this? thanks

This quote would demonstrate someone that is a "complete newb" to mafia and someone that is not familiar with how things work here. I think that he has far more experience that what he is portraying here; i.e. he's not a complete newb to Mafia or this site.

Ofcourse I'm not a complete noob, I never stated that I was.

@Shrimp: How long have you been playing Mafia?

You can see this right under my profile pic.

This is an outright lie based on my research and its the reason why I am sure you're scum. Your disingenuous voting and related unsupportable statements are what brought me to look at you more closely and discover this. Clearly you have manufactured a newb-town image here out of whole cloth.

I think he has also tried to avoid responsibility for all this by claiming to be drinking.

Whaat? Are you serious? I never said that, I made typo's, I did not try to avoid any resposibility... besides, what responsibilities DO we have?
You don't even know what you're talking about.

We have responsibilities with our voting and I am sure you are quite well aware of that.

[Adam-12]

No, first time together. Adam, whats your read on mollie?

I don't like the process she went through to vote Levi and

if she is scum I read her as very calm and collected scum

. Her demeanor would indicate that is possible for her.

lol, where the fuck would you get that idea.

From the way you handled the probing from Hawk.

[Adam-12]

Shrimp, I need to ask you a serious question. If you want to help the town find scum, I am asking you to please answer it.

Would you be able to make the following statement: "I"m not a total newb because I've played alot of Mafia in r/l and have been hanging out on this site."

Vote Count

Pirate Mollie (L-4):

ProHawk

ProHawk

Shrimp85 (L-4): Adam-12, ProHawk

Mantis (L-4): Pirate Mollie
Adam-12 (L-4): Shrimp85, Guile

Not Voting: Code, Levi, Mantis, Mala, Adam-12

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[Adam-12]

First off, I want to say that mantisdreamz seems to be the only one understanding why and what I did. you can see that in post post 87.

His posts are full off useless questions.

Not at all. In both cases valuable information was concluded from that question.

Where is this valuable information?

It showed me that Levi was town for example.

Levi is obviously town, his explanation proves that whereas Shrimp's explanation proves he is scum.

The point is that the original case on Levi IS a good reason to vote (the only problem is Levi is town).

Now Levi IS obviously town?
Why?

Hawk very well pointed out what I also believe about Levi: His playstyle precludes the motivation to stall a Q/T. This is also further brought out by his defense post.

[Adam-12]

Which reminds me:

@Mollie: Why did you switch your vote from Levi?

[Adam-12]

When the vote seemed to be a serious one, that's when mine turned serious, because that would mean that pirate mollie purposely joined a serious vote in RVS stage.
Meaning pirate mollie was creating a wagon

based on so little information

.

Did you read the link Mala posted about this? He NAILED scum doing this.

[Adam-12]

You never explained your vote for Shrimp in the first place. So how did he look more scummy?

[Adam-12]

Ok, based on all this posting from Shrimp I think his mindset is clear when he voted for Mollie and I think he really believed it. I can even support his vote, after a fashion.

When I ISO'ed what I thought was his sitewide posting history earlier I thought I found a condemning quote from him but upon going back to try and find it again, I can't find it. I had several pages open at the time and was also working. I'm not sure who the quote was actually from but its not from him.

This means my case on him has evaporated.

I'm sure someone will say something like, "Oh, look he votes you and you cave" or "The wagon dissipates and you hop off" but I really don't care. The most important thing is the integrity of my play.

I need to digest the recent flurry of posts and re-read the day to find a new direction.

Unvote

[Adam-12]

You never explained your vote for Shrimp in the first place. So how did he look more scummy?

in post #25 he looked like he was hedging his bets; offering up a rvs vote yes leaving wiggle room for it to turn serious. which is exactly what he did.

Ya I think we both saw that. I think he has adequately explained it as well.

[Adam-12]

It showed me that Levi was town for example.

Here you still don't answer my question, you just state that his answer shows you he is town...how does it do so?

It got me to ISO him and see his level of experience, and him to confirm it in thread.

mafia talk time? they can do that? I thought you could only do that during a night thing. and go where mollie? hasn't the game just started? as for being on the sight, I'm always on the sight or at least I always have the sight on tab on my computer even if i'm sleeping. that way its easy access to follow my games and see who post what and I can be updated faster and respond quicker.

This post just totally nails it.

[Adam-12]

@Mod: Like updating the votecount at the top of the page, however would like a timestamp for your updates. Also the current VC is incorrect, I am at L-3.

[Adam-12]

OK upon skimming the thread here, its obvious that certain people think asking questions is "baaaaad" and that somehow I MUST have scum intent because I do so. I will lay that to rest right now. I do not ask questions without a reason and the number one reason I do so is to gain information. Information is the thing we have the least of.

Those that are incorrectly attributing scum intent to my questions can just as easily see the other side of the coin and see town intent if they wished.

Of course SOME questions ARE scummy and should be lynched upon (rolefishing for instance or questions that contain a scum slip). Pointless questions can also be seen as posturing which would be scummy.

Simply, asking questions is a major way that I scum hunt. The other is watching everything that everyone does.

I will be digesting the thread anew now that everyone is present and giving my reads.

[Adam-12]

Ok, done.

Mala -- I like his original case on Levi and find it more likely from town than scum. His shift from Levi and subsequent vote on Shrimp was also quite good. His queries of Levi sound genuine town trying to verify alignment. I like his interjection into Mantis-Mollie early on. I think his unvote of Shrimp was warranted with the caveat. I expect he will have more content upon his return and see him as town.

Levi -- There is no doubt whatsoever that Levi is a very new player that would be incapable of understanding what stalling of confirmation is. There has been accusation in this thread that he does not have a town role pm (Blacksmith Gate) and that as a new player did not know how to properly claim town (as scum). I think this is possible. Even though my read on Levi is as very new town, I think this accusation could have merit and we need to keep it mind going forward. As it is I think he is town.

Mollie -- I did not like her early "asking of permission" to vote Levi which gave me an early possible scum read. I think its good to note her early calling out of Mantis. Even though her vote was not explained for Shrimp initially, she did so later on in the thread and sounded genuine about it. She also explained her initial vote for Levi and made me feel better about it as well. I think she might of misunderstood about Blacksmith Gate in her calling out of Mala which is evidenced by her later calling Mala town. Being consistent with her initial calling out of Mantis, she votes him on meta, at the very least this should bring Mantis to provide more definitive content which should be helpful. I like her appraisal of Shrimp, finding it quite accurate. I like and share her Hawk town read and find her explanation of it genuine. I especially like the interaction of Mollie-Hawk and find it quite genuine. Mollie has become a strong townread for me.

Shrimp -- I didn't like Shrimp's fencesat vote of Mollie (not because I had a town read on her at that time but because of simply what it was). I think he completely misread the Levi case which caused alot of confusion in this thread because of his reactions regarding it. At this point, I actually believe his Mod query on the QT as genuine based on his overall posts. I find his "wall of posts" style difficult to deal with and riddled with so many innacuracies that would require a larger wall to properly address. It took me quite awhile to finally understand what he was trying to say about the Blacksmith issue and I think that is a problem of imprecise/difficult wording; the same thing with his stance on the Levi issue and vote for Mollie. His OMGUS case on Mollie is completely inaccurate. His PR Gate is completely inaccurate. He has not understood Mollie's stance on Hawk. Ultimately his case on myself boils down to asking questions (which he has failed to understand the import of) and OMGUS. However, I must agree with Hawk regarding his town alignment. Based on what I have gleaned from his posts (it was very difficult), I must hold that he is town. I think it will help us to be able to look elsewhere for scum.

Hawk -- I like his perception regarding Levi being too new to prolong the confirmation (I think Shrimp was trying to say the same thing but it was too difficult for me to understand him). I like his Mala +town points for ending RVS. I also liked his initial read on Mollie with the way she voted for Levi and completely shared that view. I think his strong push on Mollie was very pro-town. I absolutely cannot fault him for his semantic-based argument, re: Shrimp. His quick reversal out of it and town read of Shrimp is very good. Again the Mollie-Hawk interactions are quite good. Hawk's content is light but I am not too worried about it, when he does post, it is quite good and I have him as town.

Mantis -- He asks Mollie for her summary of the game but adequately explains that it is also to get a read on her; based on their meta-playing history, I think I buy that. I think he has clearly misunderstood how I scum hunt; asking questions are not bad unless you can actually show that they have scum intent and this includes negating town intent. He defends Shrimp which I think shows insight because its not easy to do. I don't like how he didn't read Mala's link, re: confirmation stalling, but yet dismisses Mala's case. His post count is very light and I am not able to get a read on him. I think this is partly because he entered the game late and was not able to participate in the early game with the rest of us. I agree with Hawk that we need to see more content from Mantis.

Code -- One post. Not liking this. Obviously this can't continue.

Guille -- One post. He has obviously misunderstood my method of scum hunting; blanket labeling questions as "scum loaded" is too easy. Has a scum read on Mollie?? I think its clear he has simply skimmed this thread. We definitely need to see more content from him than this.

I actually was quite confused about this game when I first started this post. But now I am able to see that we have established a good block of reads based on solid information. I think scum reside in the following:

Code, Guille, Mantis

Towards this end:

Vote Guille

[Adam-12]

Adam:

Others have asked this, but I'm going to ask it in a different way. How does asking about Mafia experience and asking questions of games did you play with Player "X" help this game? What information so far have you gotten from them?

What makes me wonder is this:

Or let me put it another way, you don't think scum would not confirm because they are chatting in the Q/T & would be otherwise occupied? Isn't it a reasonable motivation for ultimately falling asleep instead of confirming?

It seems as if you took my stance very seriously, but with held a vote. I am not sure why exactly you withheld it.

Levi is obviously town, his explanation proves that whereas Shrimp's explanation proves he is scum.

The point is that the original case on Levi IS a good reason to vote (the only problem is Levi is town).

When did you see that it was a good reason to vote?

You never really explain why those explanations prove each or even point that direction.

I've only skimmed your post yet but I figured I would answer this since I saw it.

Asking if one player has played with another shows their familiarity with their gameplay for meta reasons which will help me to direct further queries. Trying to identify & clarify a certain "familiarity" that players seem to exhibit towards each other also could help identify scum teams.

Ok the point on Levi was very good but Shrimp dismissed it like it was garbage and then based all of his subsequent actions on that. I had a scum read on Shrimp and needed to find out if he really believed what he was saying regarding the Levi case because it looked to me like he mas maufacturing a viewpoint to justify his behavior. Also, Mantis dismissed the case and I brought it up again to further promote my scum read on Shrimp.

Even though the case on Levi is very good, of course it doesn't mean that he is ironclad 100% scum. If you look in the thread you see that I queried Levi quite strongly (what Mantis called "inferring") and was ready to vote him based on his response. His subsequent response made me back off of him quite quickly as I think everyone else did as well. Thats when I turned my attention to Shrimp.

Looks like popular opinion is with the stupid way. Fine, I didn't love any of you anyway.

Vote Count

Mantis (L-4): Pirate Mollie
Adam-12 (L-3): Shrimp85, Guile
Prohawk (L-4): Malakittens
Guile (L-3): Adam-12, ProHawk

Not Voting: Code, Levi, Mantis

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[Adam-12]

Well I definitely disagree with the Mollie and Hawk reads from you Mala.

What do you think of Mollie's explanation regarding role PM case pushing?

Also, what do you think of how and why Hawk holds Shrimp as clearly town?

[Adam-12]

I like the top of page myself alot. When the page loads you can see everything.

[Adam-12]

@Mantis: Have you read Mala's link, re: prolonging confirmation?

[Adam-12]

though, i don't really get this post (at the time didn't get it much either)

Its a major wagon atm.

Ok, forget it.

Levi is obviously town, his explanation proves that whereas Shrimp's explanation proves he is scum.

The point is that the original case on Levi IS a good reason to vote (the only problem is Levi is town).

because Adam, weren't we just talking about how you think it's not unreasonable for Levi to be possible scum because he took long to confirm?

and then it seemed like a few posts later, you were stating that Levi was obvious town. how did you make that leap?

There are two separate things here:

1) The CASE against Levi which is strong but was dismissed by you and Shrimp
2) Levi's alignment which appears town (with the caveat about a bad newbtown claim but I actually doubt that actually)

So its one thing to talk about the validity of the case (to validate motivations for initially pushing it and invalidate motivations for decrying its validity) but its something another to talk about his alignment which was made clear subsequent to the case being generated, right?

[Adam-12]

Replying to This post

[Adam-12]

Replying to This post

Try this link:

^^^^ Sorry this link

[Adam-12]

what has he done though that looks horribly scummy?

Nothing apart from the confirmation stall which WAS a good case even though it ended up being wrong.

It was tough, but ultimately I have Shrimp-town as well.

[Adam-12]

Replying to This post

Try this link:

^^^^ Sorry this link

just read it. that's not always going to work

Correct but it is a valid scum tell and is a strong case. That's one of the reasons why Shrimp's reaction confused me so much.

[Adam-12]

Mantis, who is scum?

i just said

. i'll do a reread of the last several pages

!


but off the top of my head, and from last night's reading,
i think malakitten and leviathan look town

Mala looks town? I thought you didn't like the Levi case??

[Adam-12]

guille missed that Adam said his case on Shrimp evaporated

I like Mala's posts up to this point.

Quite a bit of pages last night. Good information.

Vote Adam

It seems like he is focusing all his attention on shrimp, especially on something that was quite minor, IMO. It will be interesting to see where he goes from here after he backed down from his Shrimp crusade.

There is something more from him that caught my eye. His questions are loaded questions. I only see scum intent in loaded questions.

My runner up scummy is Pirate Mollie. This one is more gut that anything else, and that I don't see much scummyness from the other posters.

Looks like a scum skim to me...

[Adam-12]

maybe it's not the same thing entirely..
but it is still not enough for people to call out scum on him.

Even with a link proving the same?? How can you believe this??

[Adam-12]

Ok, I think I am starting to like Mantis here. At first I was like, "Why is he asking his scum read for advice/reads and saying he isn't sure about whether they are scum?"

We need to be careful because I think he might be at L-1...

He definitely needs to get on here and respond.

[Adam-12]

I just wanna confirm that Guille is at L-1 and so no quick hammers.

[Adam-12]

@Mantis: What is your take on Mollie at this point?

[Adam-12]

I het charts.

[Adam-12]

Btw, I don't think its healthy or proper to hold someone that does a drive-by post like that as null...

[Adam-12]

Are you guys fucking serious?

He posted once and you are all ready to hammer him? Either he's seriously town and everyone's about to quicklynch him or he's scum with his partner seriously bussing his ass. I'm not convinced of the latter.

Hold your damn horses and wait for codeX to post reads.

I don't like this post.

[Adam-12]

mantis have you looked at any pairings. this is something that I really didn't have much experience with cos most of the games we play are larger but in the couple of completed games on here it was interesting to go back and see the relationship between the 2 scum. it was really interesting in the newb game.

not sure cos I am still trying to figure out if bussing is a huge thing on this site cos of the style of how people are lynched. would someone bus their teammate in order to gain town cred on d1 and then play the game like an indie? I dunno. I could see them fosing them even voting for them but not pushing their lynch but then in my newb game I let scum slide cos of this very same thinking. well that and cos majiffy was retarded enough to give them a town read when I was questioning them right before he died.

Working publicly on pairings before there are any flips is anti-town just as an FYI. Generally it devolves into setting up chain lynches.

[Adam-12]

Guille -- One post. He has obviously misunderstood my method of scum hunting; blanket labeling questions as "scum loaded" is too easy. Has a scum read on Mollie?? I think its clear he has simply skimmed this thread. We definitely need to see more content from him than this.

First off, you seem to be labeling anyone who posts infrequently as scummy. Do consider that some of us do not have the ability to check and post 24/7. As a matter of fact I have posted every day since the game started. You are not the only one who thinks this way though. Mala has pointed this out several times.

Well I notice that you skated by RVS and posted elsewhere but not here. Is that because of "limited access" too?

About your question thing. Obviously, the problem is not that you are asking questions. The problem is that the questions are Loaded Questions. I will elaborate more on this tomorrow.

That's fine. I stand by every single question I asked.

On #181 leviathan is concerned with the inactive players. calling them lurkers. I remind everyone that being inactive and being scum are not correlated. It is a fair point to start from because scum want the games to be slow paced and with little attention as possible. So, considering the inactive players and prodding for activity is a good way to access scum. However, I think that you have better reads in this list than going for the "lurker". Curious though, since I find that your list is lack luster and only contains assumptions that everyone but the people who haven't posted are town.

You didn't just lurk, you also did a drive-by post after a full 10 pages of activity, which becomes active-lurking which is entirely different and scummy.

Mantis vote on me in # is bad. She points out misinformation in #202, and even after mentioning me as scum several times, she doesn't vote until #229, with a vote on Mollie in between.

I think she was warranted on calling you scummy. What you have done so far IS scummy. Personally, I didn't find what she did regarding the error as scummy; just pursuing a valid scum suspect.

molly, what are your thoughts on guille?

guille is moving with the herd and it depends on who you think is scummy.

look at who will be feeding this shit right now.

I don't think that actually answers Mantis Questions.

Here I must agree. That statement of Mollie's made me scratch my head too. I'd like to know what she meant.

And finally for today, so that I can leave and do some other stuff.

Hope to see you soon because you have some more posting to do.

[Adam-12]

Lol.

Adam? Why don't you like that post? Was it the cursing?

No duh ProHawk you couldn't hammer him because you were voting for him.

Guille love, I didn't suspect people because thy are inactive. I clearly state that they are null because no read can be made on them. -_-

I don't like interfering with pressure being applied to an active lurker, which is helpful to the game state.

[Adam-12]

@Mantis: What is your take on Mollie at this point?

[Adam-12]

Well I definitely disagree with the Mollie and Hawk reads from you Mala.

What do you think of Mollie's explanation regarding role PM case pushing?

Also, what do you think of how and why Hawk holds Shrimp as clearly town?

[Adam-12]

@Mala: Ok those are interesting points about Blacksmith Gate but my query about Role PM case pushing was about the way the Hawk was voting for her which gave her an early town read on Hawk.

The speed of his switch I don't think is the issue which is why I asked "How and Why" he made the switch. Have you examined that?

I tend to agree with you on rolefishing btw. I have caught scum doing that.

You like to lurk?? That is anti-town at best. At this point Guille is active lurking and needs to continue to post content to rectify that. So far he has gotten a free pass for skipping RVS while posting elsewhere and scum-skimming a single post with 10 pages of content.

[Adam-12]

Well first off, I don't think it is constructive to talk about pairings without flips and I think were better off not going down this road until at least D2.

But:

I have noticed some shifting regarding Mala's posting. I am still processing it all and am not sure what to think at this point.

I have not seen a single thing that Hawk as done that leads me to think he is scum as long as he keeps posting.

[Adam-12]

also, why exactly is it no good to talk about potential pairings?

It is really tinfoil hat without some flips (specifically scum flips). It creates a false sense of certainty and moves the scum hunting analysis into the realm of "pairings" which is deceitful. Its wine you don't wanna drink until you have something solid to go off of (scum flips).

[Adam-12]

Its a disease that is also commonly associated with tunneling.

Vote Count

Adam-12 (L-3): Shrimp85, Guile
Prohawk (L-3): Malakittens, Pirate Mollie
Guile (L-2): Adam-12
Code-X (L-4): Leviathan93
Pirate Mollie (L-4): ProHawk

Not Voting: Code-X, Mantisdreamz

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[Adam-12]

also, why exactly is it no good to talk about potential pairings?

It is really tinfoil hat without some flips (specifically scum flips). It creates a false sense of certainty and moves the scum hunting analysis into the realm of "pairings" which is deceitful. Its wine you don't wanna drink until you have something solid to go off of (scum flips).

we all know that it is wine in front of us. But i don't think it hurts to speculate right now.

Speculating in private is fine if you want to but posting about it will affect public mindset and thus potentially votes and that's anti-town.

[Adam-12]

I have noticed some shifting regarding Mala's posting. I am still processing it all and am not sure what to think at this point.

could you try to explain?

Well there some issues on the table but I am working through it as we speak. I think Mollie noticed the change too. I'm 4 pages back atm. I will update when I'm done.

[Adam-12]

also, why exactly is it no good to talk about potential pairings?

It is really tinfoil hat without some flips (specifically scum flips). It creates a false sense of certainty and moves the scum hunting analysis into the realm of "pairings" which is deceitful. Its wine you don't wanna drink until you have something solid to go off of (scum flips).

we all know that it is wine in front of us. But i don't think it hurts to speculate right now.

Speculating in private is fine if you want to but posting about it will affect public mindset and thus potentially votes and that's anti-town.

but you've said that it will create a false sense of security. But just because you say that, i don;'t see how it will create that. how is it much different from stating your scum reads and who you think could be certain scum?

The problem is we don't have flips and are uncertain of alignments. Using "pairing" to scum hunt without scum flips is a false scum hunting technique; its illusory. Scum hunting is based on scum tells by individuals, when the individual actually flips scum then its safe to hunt by pairings.

[Adam-12]

Hunting by pairings is like eating donuts, you get a quick high but ultimately no nutrition and a sugar/carb crash. Individual scum tells are the meat and potatoes of scum hunting.

[Adam-12]

Why?

Null means you have no read on them. If they don't post how can you actually have an accurate read on them?

We do have a read on Guille. He actively lurked through RVS (while posting elsewhere) and skimmed 10 pages of content with a single post. I don't think that's null at all.

[Adam-12]

Hunting by pairings is like eating donuts, you get a quick high but ultimately no nutrition and a sugar/carb crash. Individual scum tells are the meat and potatoes of scum hunting.

that doesn't even make sense! you just thought it sounded good to say it.

Actually I am a big fan of metaphors. But eat donuts if you like.

[Adam-12]

Yes every player has ostensibly view these actions with their own eyes, therefore "we".

[Adam-12]

He did not participate in RVS at all and definitely posted elsewhere but not in this thread; I even made a comment about it at the time I noticed it.

[Adam-12]

Going to nitpick a bit here. Which is amazingly uncanny for me.

I think you have wayyyy to many innocent reads or gut feels to be exact.

The only two scum reads that you have are because they either posted once or not at all. >.>

ProHawk isn't acting totally innocent to me, but he's acting scummy. He wanted to get Guille a hammer on him without allowing Guille to explain or even having CodeX post his reads or views on any material. To me finding connections based off one post is hard depending on whether or not Codex or Guille were to flip scum.

Plus to label someone "scum" only because you have too many innocent reads isn't that good. It comes off as a "forced" feeling.

^Adam, you are trying to go head-to-head with a professional site tracker here...

Well that's good and fine but Guille needs to step it up just the same.

[Adam-12]

1) He completely missed RVS
2) He posted in other games while this game was active
3) He finally posted here with a post that was an obvious skim and light on content

He needs to rectify this. There is no stretch and certainly no need to be defending him. I am sure he can defend himself since he is a Mod and everything.

Vote Count

Adam-12 (L-3): Shrimp85, Guile
Prohawk (L-3): Malakittens, Pirate Mollie
Guile (L-2): Adam-12
Code-X (L-4): Leviathan93
Pirate Mollie (L-4): ProHawk

Not Voting: Code-X, Mantisdreamz

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[Adam-12]

What don't you understand about he doesn't need anyone to defend him and he can defend himself!?

Posting elsewhere and not posting on this site is active lurking along with his skim post.

Are you going to keep going here??

[Adam-12]

Malakitten, why are you sticking up for Guille so much?

Not the best question to ask at this particular moment 9.9

Maybe we can shelve this until after Guille starts posting regularly?

Pretty please?

[Adam-12]

lol xost

What does xost mean??

[Adam-12]

Malakitten, why are you sticking up for Guille so much?

Not the best question to ask at this particular moment 9.9

Maybe we can shelve this until after Guille starts posting regularly?

Pretty please?

I was trying to respond to this earlier.. but, it confused me too much. i wanted to ask you why that question to mala should be shelved? but since you seemed so adamant about not asking this question, i didn't actually want to ask you.

Simply because she would answer it with more defense of someone that should be defending themselves.

Vote for stopping discussion is lol's

Be caught up soon.

[Adam-12]

ProHawk isn't acting totally innocent to me, but he's acting scummy. He wanted to get Guille a hammer on him without allowing Guille to explain or even having CodeX post his reads or views on any material.

This is totally off base to the point of being opportunistic. I will let Hawk explain if he wants to.

[Adam-12]

@Mala: Ok those are interesting points about Blacksmith Gate but my query about Role PM case pushing was about the way the Hawk was voting for her which gave her an early town read on Hawk.

The speed of his switch I don't think is the issue which is why I asked "How and Why" he made the switch. Have you examined that?

I tend to agree with you on rolefishing btw. I have caught scum doing that.

You like to lurk?? That is anti-town at best. At this point Guille is active lurking and needs to continue to post content to rectify that. So far he has gotten a free pass for skipping RVS while posting elsewhere and scum-skimming a single post with 10 pages of content.

[Adam-12]

eta: I do like your pointing that adam is asking loaded questions though cos that is indeed what he was doing loaded questions can be pretty scummy since the whole purpose of them is to spin in a fake scumtell later.

I stand by every question I ask. If they are loaded then they are loaded with town intent. If someone wishes to view them as scummy they can just as easily as they can see the other side.

[Adam-12]

OK upon skimming the thread here, its obvious that certain people think asking questions is "baaaaad" and that somehow I MUST have scum intent because I do so. I will lay that to rest right now. I do not ask questions without a reason and the number one reason I do so is to gain information. Information is the thing we have the least of.

Those that are incorrectly attributing scum intent to my questions can just as easily see the other side of the coin and see town intent if they wished.

Of course SOME questions ARE scummy and should be lynched upon (rolefishing for instance or questions that contain a scum slip). Pointless questions can also be seen as posturing which would be scummy.

Simply, asking questions is a major way that I scum hunt. The other is watching everything that everyone does.

I will be digesting the thread anew now that everyone is present and giving my reads.

This is pretty much all I need to say on the topic.

[Adam-12]

Ok work is ramping up here. I won't be able to catch up for a couple of hours. One major thing I can say is that now that I have had a chance to re-read Guille's post I have been able to understand it more completely. He has actually done what I wanted him to do; commit to posting regularly with content. I didn't catch that drift on my first skim and response. Another thing that has happened is that upon reviewing all of Mantis's posts, I find her a scum hunter after my own heart. I have watched her cycle through each and every player one after the other and scum hunt them all. Therefore I am moving her into the town list.

The chances of finding two scum in the two lowest posters of the game is not very good in my estimation. Therefore at least one of my town reads is probably wrong. After I finish catching up I will be re-evaluating my reads to find which direction I will need to push.

One thing I don't like is how Guille has not commented on the major events of the day. He is holding his comments to his reads with not much else. I would ask him to demonstrate that he has read the thread by giving us a summary of the goings on.

[Adam-12]

No, first time together. Adam, whats your read on mollie?

I don't like the process she went through to vote Levi and

if she is scum I read her as very calm and collected scum

. Her demeanor would indicate that is possible for her.

lol, where the fuck would you get that idea.

From the way you handled the probing from Hawk.

[Adam-12]

@Mod: Can we please prod Code

[Adam-12]

@Mala: Ok those are interesting points about Blacksmith Gate but my query about Role PM case pushing was about the way the Hawk was voting for her which gave her an early town read on Hawk;

what do you think of her reasoning on that

?

The speed of his switch I don't think is the issue which is why I asked "How and Why" he made the switch.

Have you examined that

?

I tend to agree with you on rolefishing btw. I have caught scum doing that.

You like to lurk?? That is anti-town at best. At this point Guille is active lurking and needs to continue to post content to rectify that. So far he has gotten a free pass for skipping RVS while posting elsewhere and scum-skimming a single post with 10 pages of content.

[Adam-12]

She won't put any heat back on me for catching her scumminess early on (in fact she tries to buddy up), until she gets something that she has backup on (Mala) and that appears scummy at first glance?

Hawk, what do you mean by this? I don't get your Mala reference.

[Adam-12]

but you've said that it will create a false sense of security. But just because you say that, i don;'t see how it will create that. how is it much different from stating your scum reads and who you think could be certain scum?

The problem is we don't have flips and are uncertain of alignments. Using "pairing" to scum hunt without scum flips is a false scum hunting technique; its illusory. Scum hunting is based on scum tells by individuals, when the individual actually flips scum then its safe to hunt by pairings.

yes but it also gives you the chance to step back and see who has interacted with who. for example, i would say that you and shrimp are not scum together. someone may also say that mollie and i aren't scum together.

i'm not going to argue it though, i think i can see somewhat what you mean.. in that, it's best to just focus on one person at a time... and being that that can even be difficult in itself (to find one scum).. that it's even more wifom to look for 2 at once.

but still it's still good to look at who has kept a distance from one another.

Ya, we pretty much can't help having those thoughts run through our head but its best to keep them on a leash so we stay sane and grounded in actual scum tells. Its also an easy way for scum create cases because you only have to show simple connections or lack of them based on unknown alignments.

[Adam-12]

Da fuck?

So because I was trying to avoid a hammer on Guile so he could post and for Code to post it's opportunistic?

1) Do you believe its bad for town to lurk?
2) What is the best way to deal with lurkers?
3) Have you ever heard of "pressuring lurkers"?

If you could please answer the 3 questions above honestly, confining your answers to your personal views on the questions asked.

[Adam-12]

eta: I do like your pointing that adam is asking loaded questions though cos that is indeed what he was doing loaded questions can be pretty scummy since the whole purpose of them is to spin in a fake scumtell later.

Or maybe, I dunno, scum hunt? >.<

Please see my post on the matter.

[Adam-12]

Malakitten, why are you sticking up for Guille so much?

Not the best question to ask at this particular moment 9.9

Maybe we can shelve this until after Guille starts posting regularly?

Pretty please?

I was trying to respond to this earlier.. but, it confused me too much. i wanted to ask you why that question to mala should be shelved? but since you seemed so adamant about not asking this question, i didn't actually want to ask you.

Simply because she would answer it with more defense of someone that should be defending themselves.

Vote for stopping discussion is lol's

Be caught up soon.

not really when you consider that scum are the ones who either want to stop discussion or steer it.

LOL. Are you examining the particular case here? She was clearly defending someone that needed to defend themselves. I don't need someone else providing answers to explain a suspect's behavior when I am waiting for those answers from that suspect, so yes its total lol's in this case. There was also no reason for this behavior as he only had one vote against him.

[Adam-12]

Ok caught up.

So, Mantis has been moved to the town category. This means that most likely one of my town reads is incorrect. Of the town reads I have, I am not willing to consider Hawk, Levi, Mantis or Shrimp.

That leaves Mala & Mollie.

Mala -- At first I was really turned off by her summary post (#166) which really sounded off with her suspicion of Mollie & Vote for Hawk. Later however she explains the Hawk vote and unvotes which looks genuine to me because I can understand the lure of the strong meta pull for Hawk. She didn't seem to see how Guille was active lurking even though he posted elsewhere on this site without posting in this game and when he did finally make his first post, it was apparent that he clearly skimmed. She then goes over the top defending Guille against pro-town pressuring even to the point of saying she likes to lurk as town and going in-your-face yelling about it even when he only had one vote on him. I find this behavior bizarre but am hard pressed to believe that (or even explain how) she would do this as scum; the only explanation I have is that she has some kind of affinity with Guille having played with him before and being in a game he is modding and so for her it became personal and beyond the scope of this particular game. She is queried by Mantis about her odd recent postings and apparent lack of scum hunting and replies that she was reaction testing; ultimately I think I buy this because this game is showing itself difficult to figure out and I think she is experiencing some of the same frustration that I have been. Her vote for me for stopping discussion is just bad but I have a set of questions set out for her which should help me understand it better. Ultimately I think its just a residue of her defense of Guille which I actively opposed her on. So with everything taken into account, I am finding it hard to paint a scum picture with Mala.

Mollie -- Upon my re-examination of Mollie I did come across something I missed earlier but stands out to me now. Across many of her posts she seems preoccupied with being lynched and declaring that she is not scum. These declarations have also been accompanied by AtE which I found odd; such as, "When I flip re-examine this" and "I am looking to be the next lynch, I can see things going that way" and "Let me post these reads before people follow Hawk in lynching me". Her vote for Hawk had no explanation. She also directed the tracker/watcher in post #247. She also tends to describe her behavior as scum to show herself as town (self meta); such as, "I WoT as scum" and others. What I liked about Mollie was her level head, strong demeanor & mafia skills and these traits created a town profile in my mind that sort of hid these other subtle signs of scum-conscious behavior. The easy scum tells are usually the ones that result in a D1 lynch of a townie. I am always in favor of the more subtle tells because they're the ones that tend to catch scum. I think a vote here is in order.

Regarding Guille, I expect him to honor his expressed intention to post regularly with substantial content and would ask that he give a summary of the major events of the day (Mala's RVS Levi case, Blacksmith Gate, Mollie-Mantis Meta, Myself vs. Shrimp, Hawk vs. Mollie and anything else of note that he finds). I am not concerned very much about his case against me as every one of my questions have been designed to hunt scum and with substantiation of such, the discussion should move elsewhere.

Unvote, Vote Mollie

[Adam-12]

Now that I think about it, I think that RVS tell on Molly does show scum-conscious voting behavior and both Hawk & I were correct in noting it.

[Adam-12]

LOL. Good point. You got me. I was incorrectly using RVS as synonymous with "early game".

Thank you for clarifying your posting history.

Glad you're committed to posting in this game and that is what is important.

[Adam-12]

Ok that leaves Guille who has posted on site but not here.

This post is where I checked your posting history and found you had posted elsewhere but as far as I am concerned, this is moot because you are not a lurker.

However, Code is another issue. I am looking forward to his slot being replaced which should happen in the next 24 hours. I think it makes sense to allow his replacement to post before ending the day.

[Adam-12]

I suppose that's possible. I am kinda tired right now and am going to hit the sack soon. If I did mess up I'm sorry.

[Adam-12]

^^^ LOL

>:D

[Adam-12]

Ok, on Levi. For him to be playing the newb card is deeply as he is playing it, he would have to be skilled scum and from reviewing his sitewide ISO, he just isn't. I read him as genuine inexperienced town.

On Guille, I have him back in the "null" pile. This is twice you have called him "over-defensive"; I don't get it. Now that the guy has a heartbeat he will be posting regularly and with content. If he is scum it should come out on subsequent days.

I also have my own "love/hate" relationship; its with "minimalist" players. Done right, its helpful to town and I think Hawk is doing it right.

Ya, the guy you don't remember is (soon to be replaced thank you!)Code.

[Adam-12]

I work in an inbound callcenter from home that runs 24/7. I find myself working overnight alot.

[Adam-12]

Ok, I think I have misunderstood the term "groom" and I suspect it comes from another site. I thought it meant setting someone up for later lynch but I think what it really means is "buddying"??

[Adam-12]

thinking on all of this mantis your votes and foses look truly terrible.

I'm finding her to be quite thorough and genuinely active, is this wrong?

[Adam-12]

What does "set up for a endgame or midgame nk flip" mean?

[Adam-12]

thinking on all of this mantis your votes and foses look truly terrible.

I'm finding her to be quite thorough and genuinely active, is this wrong?

well one can be thorough and active and that have nothing to do with one's alignment. her reactions look very genuine I disagree with her foses and votes. her fos on levi looks good to me though cos it did look like he kind of knew how

also why are you talking to me like I am town aren't I the evil scum lord or something like that.

I don't think your reads are unimportant.

[Adam-12]

@Mantis: What do you think about my post regarding Mollie? Does it make any sense? I'd rather hear your full opinion in your own words than address any specific concerns/thoughts that I have.

[Adam-12]

I would like to note that I particularly do not like this quote:

but addressing the subtle observation factor...just coming off of 3 games where I was scum. the audio one on this site, TO and ratskep.

the eau de scum perfume has not worn off I suppose

This is a very clever statement that sounds good on the surface but really boils down to saying, "I know I looked scummy but I just played 3 games as scum in a row and so its not my fault" but at the same time she demonstrates deep knowledge of scum game play (especially evidenced by her most recent posts). I find this to be manipulative and a serious case of cog-dis; which is she, an expert player or one that is swayed by forces beyond her control?

My opinion at this point is that she is trying to weasel her way out of suspicion in any way that she can and the cog-dis here is pretty good evidence of that.

[Adam-12]

@Mantis: What do you think about my post regarding Mollie? Does it make any sense? I'd rather hear your full opinion in your own words than address any specific concerns/thoughts that I have.

i've got to properly read the last 2 pages or so but i'll get back to you on this in a bit

Thanks. I think it will be helpful to me.

[Adam-12]

Code has 3 hours to post. Which means I have to stay up and watch 4 more episodes of Lost. It's so hard being me, sometimes. >.>

You can do it! COURAGE!

[Adam-12]

I would like to note that I particularly do not like this quote:

but addressing the subtle observation factor...just coming off of 3 games where I was scum. the audio one on this site, TO and ratskep.

the eau de scum perfume has not worn off I suppose

This is a very clever statement that sounds good on the surface but really boils down to saying, "I know I looked scummy but I just played 3 games as scum in a row and so its not my fault" but at the same time she demonstrates deep knowledge of scum game play (especially evidenced by her most recent posts). I find this to be manipulative and a serious case of cog-dis; which is she, an expert player or one that is swayed by forces beyond her control?

My opinion at this point is that she is trying to weasel her way out of suspicion in any way that she can and the cog-dis here is pretty good evidence of that.

it all falls apart when you have to marry the idea that I am okay with getting lynched. like

really

I am okay with getting lynched.

speaking of cognitive-dissonance you have been treating me like town and trying to milk me for inside scum play but keeping your vote on me. lol

^Adam, maybe you should remove your vote from mollie, if you are town.

Because she is saying she wants to be lynched? Frankly, in evaluating her defense overall, I don't get a solid townie feel from it. I think she is a master manipulator and I am definitely feeling that but I don't like the cog-dis at all.

[Adam-12]

And the anti-town statements aren't in her favor either.

[Adam-12]

I would like to note that I particularly do not like this quote:

but addressing the subtle observation factor...just coming off of 3 games where I was scum. the audio one on this site, TO and ratskep.

the eau de scum perfume has not worn off I suppose

This is a very clever statement that sounds good on the surface but really boils down to saying, "I know I looked scummy but I just played 3 games as scum in a row and so its not my fault" but at the same time she demonstrates deep knowledge of scum game play (especially evidenced by her most recent posts). I find this to be manipulative and a serious case of cog-dis; which is she, an expert player or one that is swayed by forces beyond her control?

My opinion at this point is that she is trying to weasel her way out of suspicion in any way that she can and the cog-dis here is pretty good evidence of that.

it all falls apart when you have to marry the idea that I am okay with getting lynched. like

really

I am okay with getting lynched.

speaking of cognitive-dissonance you have been treating me like town and trying to milk me for inside scum play but keeping your vote on me. lol

^Adam, maybe you should remove your vote from mollie, if you are town.

Because she is saying she wants to be lynched? Frankly, in evaluating her defense overall, I don't get a solid townie feel from it. I think she is a master manipulator and I am definitely feeling that but I don't like the cog-dis at all.

not necessarily just because she says she wants to be lynched. but an overall feeling im getting from her recent posts.

i'll ask you this way... if you put mollie aside who would be your other top choice? and then after your top choice, who would be your second choice?

I'm going to wait for Code to replace and think about that. At this point it would be people that could be scum with Mollie; I'm not going to try and hunt pairs but view individual scum tells. I like my vote but do let me know if I am missing something.

[Adam-12]

Ok, on Levi. For him to be playing the newb card is deeply as he is playing it, he would have to be skilled scum and from reviewing his sitewide ISO, he just isn't. I read him as genuine inexperienced town.

the last sentence... that's the whole point though. that you read him that way (if he is scum).

Ok, but the idea that he is "playing the newb card" is just not applicable here. A case for newb-scum is possible but I haven't gotten that feel from him unless you mean Blacksmith Gate.

[Adam-12]

Well with Hawk, it starts with agreeing on reads. I noticed the exact same thing he did on Mollie and completely understand his push on her from that perspective. I like how he also attacked Shrimp and came away from that with a Shrimp town slip. Again, I like his very good pressure on Guille. And ultimately, it took some time, but I have come to agree with him on Mollie; I think we have both discovered that her defense seems scattered. Ultimately I think Hawk and I just think the same way and seem to see the same things.

[Adam-12]

Also, I admire minimalist posters that know how to do it right, because I don't >.<

[Adam-12]

WOOT! GO BABY GO!!!!!!!!!

[Adam-12]

lol the Puma!

[Adam-12]

Great work btw thank you.

[Adam-12]

@Mollie: So far I have not once agreed that I have treated you as town (since my vote for you). Have I been evaluating your defense? Yes. Treating you as town? No.

[Adam-12]

^ Yeah what he said.

"I'll have that replacement in a Majiffy!"

[Adam-12]

"WHO'S THE MOD WE LOVE TO LAUD!?"

What I do have is a very special set of moderating powers. Powers that make me a nightmare to posters like you. If you stop making bad puns, that'll be the end of it; but if you don't: I will look for you, I WILL find you, and I will modkill you.

[Adam-12]

Ok, I think I have misunderstood the term "groom" and I suspect it comes from another site. I thought it meant setting someone up for later lynch but I think what it really means is "buddying"??

why are you asking me this if you are town and think that I am scum it seems like you are wavering on your read cos who the fuck cares what terminology scum use.

So clarifying terms that YOU use in explaining your reads means I am treating you as town?

thinking on all of this mantis your votes and foses look truly terrible.

I'm finding her to be quite thorough and genuinely active, is this wrong?

why are you asking me for my read on mantis if you think I am scum. you shouldn't be trusting my reads on anybody if you think I am scum you dummy.

Asking you to flesh out your read on another player so I can analyze it means I am treating you as town? No. I already have Mantis as strong town. But even without that, defending a town read is not bad.

What does "set up for a endgame or midgame nk flip" mean?

again why are you asking your main suspect for scum about terminology usage or game strategy? you look like a cat who is playing with its food like seriously you are not treating me as scum here.

Querying you here revealed quite a bit about your level of experience and brought me to dig deeper to analyze your defense.

thinking on all of this mantis your votes and foses look truly terrible.

I'm finding her to be quite thorough and genuinely active, is this wrong?

well one can be thorough and active and that have nothing to do with one's alignment. her reactions look very genuine I disagree with her foses and votes. her fos on levi looks good to me though cos it did look like he kind of knew how

also why are you talking to me like I am town aren't I the evil scum lord or something like that.

I don't think your reads are unimportant.

they should be if you are convinced I am scum before you have a flip.

This has got to be disingenuous; surely you know that scum reads are important too right? Of course, analyzing your defense is necessary -- I am not a cop with a guilty on you.

@Mantis: What do you think about my post regarding Mollie? Does it make any sense? I'd rather hear your full opinion in your own words than address any specific concerns/thoughts that I have.

wtf is this shit I don't even. you are either trying to garner support if you are scum for what you think is an easy lynch or you are town trying to gain clarity on a waffely read. since you are saying that you are convinced that I am scum well......

I said earlier that I have felt you are a master manipulator and your responses brought me to doubt my initial reads. I know that you and Mantis have played extensively together and I wanted to see if anything I said could be discounted by meta or if I was totally off base in my perceptions. She didn't point anything out so...

plz clarify the cog-dis that you are banging on about tia.

I explained it in my original post where I underlined it. Could you please quote that post and ask specifically about it?

[Adam-12]

This list of anti-town statements was generated subsequent to a wagon being formed on you:

already knew I would most likely be lynched I have played enough games I can see where the herd is going called it earlier

This is a defeatist attitude that is not helpful to town.

my game is going to look scummy cos I don't care what I look like.

Town doesn't say this.

also I do not mind getting lynched

Town doesn't say this.

I am good with my lynch at least it will provide info for my team

Yes, but only as a LAST DITCH EFFORT for town. Town doesn't say this the way you have expressed it here.

like really I am okay with getting lynched.

Town doesn't say this.

Vote Count

Adam-12 (L-3): Guile, Malakittens
Leviathan93 (L-4): Pirate Mollie
Code-X (L-4): Leviathan93
Pirate Mollie (L-2): ProHawk, Shrimp85, Adam-12
Malakittens (L-4): Mantisdreamz

Not Voting: Code-X

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

I didn't see any vote changes on the previous page but I'm also one foot out the door so if I made any mistakes lemme know in bold and I'll fix them when I drunkenly stumble in the door tonight.

[Adam-12]

You are not a derp, I don't see how you can possibly believe that being lynched as town is good for the "town team". This is manipulative cog-dis.

[Adam-12]

If a town player doesn't want suspicion on their head (a +town sentiment within reason) then they shouldn't make statements such as, "My game is going to be scummy because I don't care how I look". Your logic is self-defeating and self-incriminating.

[Adam-12]

Taking your logic to its natural conclusion, you should be D1 lynched every game UNLESS your gameplay is naturally pro-town and you don't need to be concerned with how you look but you say, "My game IS gonna look scummy" in which case you aren't in the realm of logic at all.

[Adam-12]

Keep in mind, your anti-town attitude is not the primary reason I am voting you but it definitely is the reason I am staying on your wagon until it lynches.

[Adam-12]

I hope people can see how terribly circular her logic is here, if you can't just ask me, I will go off on it.

In a sentence:

If you want to help the town team, then care enough about your play to post as town does!

Don't sit here and tell us, "My image is compromised and so its better for the town if I'm lynched" when its your own admitted fault!

Its just more AtE plain and simple.

[Adam-12]

My case on Mollie boils down to:

1) Her RVS scum-aware vote for Shrimp
2) Her obsession with being lynched & declaring she is not scum
3) Her directing of the Tracker/Watcher
4) Cog-dis & AtE in her defense when wagoned
5) Her anti-town attitude when wagoned

Feel free to inquire about any point.

[Adam-12]

I want to comment on issue du jour (Mollie vs Adam) before I branch out at all:

1) Mollie -- why's your vote on Leviathan when you're pretty adamantly calling Adam scum? You're not even attempting to push your own wagon, and since I'm reading it as PoE due to #415, it really makes little sense considering your past few posts and the gamestate that your vote would be where it is. What gives?
2) Adam -- why are 2), 4), and 5) scum tells and not personality tells? What does 1) even mean?

Number one is her post where she asks Mala if Levi was trying to stall the confirmation. Both Hawk and I noticed it as scummy and I personally labeled it as "asking for permission". Its overly self-conscious. Of course we are talking about RVS here so obviously no major case but sometimes RVS tells pan out as true and I think that is what happened in this case.

I suppose Number 2 could be a personality tell except I see it as a scum technique to allay suspicion; it worked on me for quite awhile.

Number 4 revolves around cog-dis which is more of a sign of a scum mind that overcompensates for its known guilt and when discovered in a player's defense, is a sign that player is scum. For the AtE its the same thing.

Number 5 basically boils down to a "too scummy to be scum" defense or "in your face scum" defense. I think I even detest that even more than lurking and I clearly think she is using this a way to excuse away her behavior and suspicion.

[Adam-12]

In my process of evaluating her defense, her initial responses got me to doubt the validity of Number 2 and forced me to look deeper into her recent posts. That's when I discovered the cog-dis and identified that she was being manipulative. That's when the case started to stick for me.

[Adam-12]

@Mod: Can we prod Levi please?

[Adam-12]

i think that she's town. pretty certain actually.

And... what revelation have you that we don't?

QFT.

[Adam-12]

Actually I was inquiring about her revelation as was Hawk.

[Adam-12]

Just for public consumption, I'd like to point out that cog-dis & directing PR's are scum tells.

It is the nature of Mafia however that most every scum tell can be denied almost to the point of saying that scum tells don't actually exist.

So it really comes down to your opinion of whether that person is scum or not.

Just woke up here, so going to be reviewing the thread and hoping to see a votecount soon.

[Adam-12]

I think Guille is at L-1?

[Adam-12]

Ahh wonderful. So which one of you had the scummiest response to...

So on that note....

Guille

any last words before the blacksmith hammers your head in?

Mala... just kinda pissed off at the speed of things.
Molly, now #244 combined with #247 are great.
Shrimp... just trying to sort things through as usual - ObvTown

In other words, who decided to take that line and twist it to make a case against a townie while attempting to gain town-cred all at the same time? You know who I think it is, buut I will let you decide.

For the record the blacksmith

equal

ProHawk. And I had no intent to hammer.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pirate Molly

The winner Molly it is. PS - the only reason Shrimp and I make a cute couple is cause we are both ObvTown!

Guille, can't wait to see who your vote lands on tonight.

If this post was a magazine I would buy a lifetime subscription. I don't know how keeps reading my mind or making plays that I wish I could, but he does.

Not understanding the Hawk vote here for you Code-Bork.

Could you please comment on the days events? I will post a list in a second.

Vote Count

Adam-12 (L-4): Malakittens
Pirate Mollie (L-2): Shrimp85, Adam-12, Guile
Guile (L-2): ProHawk, Pirate Mollie, Mantisdreamz
ProHawk(L-4): borkjerfkin

Not Voting: leviathan93

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[Adam-12]

1) Mala's RVS Levi case
2) Blacksmith Gate
3) Mollie-Mantis Meta
4) Myself vs. Shrimp
5) Hawk vs. Mollie
6) Myself vs. Mollie you have talked about
7) Hawk vs. Guille I & II

[Adam-12]

i think that she's town. pretty certain actually.

And... what revelation have you that we don't?

i've played with her many many times before and her posts look genuine to me right now.
thinking that guile is scum and i want to vote him but am going to check to make sure i'm not hammering (in order to give him leeway time to claim if he has to)

Can you please elaborate?

[Adam-12]

why are you resurrecting a post that was like 200 posts ago and you have since replied you have a mancrush on hawk boy we get it.

mantis you see him as town and hawk boy is treating him as town but really I don't get it. it isn't cos he is trolley tracking on me it is cos that the reasoning behind it is dumb and too dumb for a player who thinks he needs to give me advice on how to play.

This post was in response to Code-Bork who referenced it on his case for Hawk.

Bork I would like some evidence that you've read the thread besides just some reads and be able to get a better feel for you as you missed out on about 15 pages of content playing with us.

I don't take your refusal in a positive light and because I don't understand your Hawk vote, I find this suspicious.

[Adam-12]

I need to do a re-read too but I'm not liking Code-Bork at all.

[Adam-12]

Kind of tired today.

[Adam-12]

The votecount appears wrong as it has Guille not voting.

[Adam-12]

Well considering that I haven't read most of the thread, I can't exactly give you evidence that I've read most of the thread

. Stop giving me homework; it's demeaning.

And the post you quoted is awful.

hawk boy if borky turns out to be scum this is what I mean by scum bumping against the tide. do you see where I am coming from? it felt like town coming together with you mantis adam and I.

also

guille read one of my old games is that typical for scum to do on this site or are they like bork and can't even read the game that they are in

? in my experience scum tends to be the latter.

also shrimp guy, grooming is what you do during the game in order to prepare for endgame and if

mantis were scum she would not want me around for endgame.

I like and agree with the first post.

I am willing to trust my town read on Mantis.

Unvote, Vote Bork

Btw, I think Shrimp's issue with her play boils down to scum hunting technique. I actually am reading more accuracy in Shrimp's posts of late.

[Adam-12]

If Mantis is correct (I think she is town), Hawk-Mollie are a strong town voting block and I remember how that felt early on. I actually liked that feeling.

At this point, Bork is whey scummier than Mollie.

[Adam-12]

Besides this Guille thing was just another probe, amirite?

[Adam-12]

Ya he did have a good point there. I'm glad you guys are following the rules even on Skype.

[Adam-12]

You're not supposed to buy it. You're supposed to die.

You first?

[Adam-12]

Besides this Guille thing was just another probe, amirite?

Answer this then:
1) What was the catalyst for the inquiry into Guille?
2) What info has he divined from it so far?

Those questions should be directed to him. Let us say that I just agree with his technique; I think there is a reason he has "pro" in his name.

[Adam-12]

Your replace-in is typical of scum: Deer in the headlights. Scum paralysis; the overbearing weight of the thread and desire not to read. To "mail it in" if you will.

[Adam-12]

@Bork: I outline my initial reads in my summary post; apparently you didn't read it.

Since then those reads have remained true as his posts continued. He just thinks like I do and plays like I wish I could. I have agreed with every aspect of his play; I know that sounds over the top but its true.

Vote Count

Adam-12 (L-4): Malakittens
Pirate Mollie (L-3): Shrimp85, Guile
Guile (L-2): ProHawk, Pirate Mollie, Mantisdreamz
ProHawk(L-4): borkjerfkin
borkjerfkin (L-4): Adam-12

Not Voting: leviathan93

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[Adam-12]

I'm saying that the broader the subject matter I'm being asked to comment on (Like the whole freaking game), the less possible it is to be concise without cherry picking and

not giving anyone a good insight into my overall thought process

.

ORLY?

[Adam-12]

Why does this "reading the game and giving substantive input is bad for the town" sound like a bunch of happy horse crap to me?

[Adam-12]

Levi needs to get in here and make some noise or I don't condone him living to LYLO even if he is town.

You read my mind again.

[Adam-12]

@Mollie: I wasn't planning on giving him a "free game pass" but his D1 actions are very pro-town so far.

I thought your conversation about hiding/blending in vs. bumping against the tide revolved more about independent thought vs. going with the group; I don't see how it relates to putting people in my town pile?

I will let Hawk respond to the points that specifically apply to him.

[Adam-12]

That's a huge generalization anyway. It's an acceptable meta tell if someone tends to post way more or less as scum but it doesn't work as an across the board tell.

Why's not reading the thread scummy?

When I replace in as town, it kinda helps me get, I dunno, scum reads? I kinds like to get the "full picture thing" like the rest of players have (If you don't need scum reads, don't worry about it).

Your question is a joke right?

[Adam-12]

what do you think of hawk boy saying that a scum flip from either of us would clear the other?

I see his point but its really theoretical and doesn't add any weight to a case unless we are deadlocked and evaluating comparative lynch strength. When a scum actually flips, statements like these have value.

[Adam-12]

what do you think of hawk boy saying that a scum flip from either of us would clear the other?

I see his point but its really theoretical and doesn't add any weight to a case unless we are deadlocked and evaluating comparative lynch strength. When a scum actually flips, statements like these have value.

[quoteokay but can you also see how knowing my alignment and wondering if guille might be town cos of reasons already stated do you see how it kind of looks like how it is a sweet set up for a double town lynch?

I don't see him using this as part of a scum case. He can correct me if I am wrong but I just see this as a potentially helpful comment down the road and possibly even as a note to himself. But you are right that "hunting in pairs" is similar to "lining up lynches", until we have a scum flip.

I am okay with my lynch and I know that you think that this is anti-town but I am not a player to have in lylo unless I am convincing enough that I am really town and right now it doesn't look like I am. on-line gamers will know what I mean by "tanking". that is what I am doing I am tanking for town. we obviously have different playstyles and that is honestly what I was trying to get you to see earlier in the game, look at the substance beyond the style.

If this is true, how in the world can you say that its because you just played 3 games in a row as scum -- that is practically a scum slip and most certainly is cog-dis given your experience level.

[Adam-12]

Right, you would "confirm a town player", +1 town.

[Adam-12]

I don't buy the oppressed-lylo-martyr-logic because its simple, care enough to play like town and drop all that excess baggage.

[Adam-12]

When I said she was right, I meant in general about "pair hunting".

[Adam-12]

@Mollie: You are trying to say that you started this game with the intention of "tanking" on purpose??

[Adam-12]

I also must say, yes you have been vociferous and very active but my gut (without re-ISO-ing you) is that you haven't done very much actual scum hunting; its just how I feel. I will be doing a re-read tomorrow and I will evaluate how much of your posting is actually scum hunting.

[Adam-12]

Reading other games is looking for meta.

Pray-tell

what negative attention did you intentionally garner?

@Pirate Mollie:

The only other game that you used the word Grooming was the Newbie 1286 game.

I don't want to read through it, can you give me a summary of where that got you, considering you were town in that game.

Conclusion: Adam has the best case on Mollie, and I agree with him.

She is inconsistent.

She overreacts to certain accusations and her OMGUS is off the charts.

See bold. It sure looks like he is trying to use it to support his conclusion of you being inconsistent to me.

@Adam, my statement was in no way linking two scum together, but rather just the opposite - read my equation if you are confused.

wrt my bold: you are spinning this. I drew negative attention at my entrance into the thread which you voted on didn't you?

So, you're saying you purposefully questioned Mala to look bad?

You are saying 2 things at once: 1) You drew bad attention from the beginning of the game, 2) You purposefully drew bad attention once you started getting votes on you

I don't understand this.

[Adam-12]

i know that she hates being mislynched as town. so that could account for her response.

So she is lying about the oppressed-lylo-martyr-logic?

What about being mislynched as scum?

[Adam-12]

I keep coming back to hawk boy cos of how sticky his vote is and he is not even trying to look anywhere else this is what I did in the audio game it gave me leeway to prime you and maestro for an endgame scenario as in I left you 2 alone and made so much noise with thor that it allowed the both of you to lay on the periphereal so that there was no clearcut path that pointed to either of you when I was lynched.

You were scum in that game? And made yourself a martyr for your team?

[Adam-12]

shrimp guy looks opportunistic as a smurf but again retarded town herd mentality/confirmation bias and all. adam and shrimp look like they might be classic forum mafia xenophobes as in they don't know how to assimilate different playstyles or lateral thinking unless you pretty it up for them.

I like lateral thinking which is why I appreciate Hawk's posts, had you as an initial town read and why I liked your between rounds communication so much. I have a serious problem with players who use lateral thinking as an excuse for scummy posts; based on your defense I don't see you as a "clean" lateral thinker.

Town aligned lateral thinkers don't use cog-dis in their defense; manipulative scum who know they are guilty do, under the guise of lateral thinking (see scum perfume & oppressed-lylo-martyr logic).

[Adam-12]

so if I step away from a d1 town pile on and look at who is skating on the edges it puts hawk boy, malacat, guille and levi in the forefront. not touching malacat til d3 and hawk boy is getting his hands somewhat dirty so if I work from a hawk boy might actually be town axis that leaves guille and levi. guille got super cranky and looks like he is playing it safe cos why has he not followed his "gut bad pizza read" read and just vote me already cos there is the possibility of knowing how I will flip that's why. that is what I mean by playing it safe.

I find this to be a very pro-town post segment.

@Mantis: Mollie normally does this as scum too, right? This is the first solid, non-manipulative defense I have found from her.

[Adam-12]

I would like to note that I particularly do not like this quote:

but addressing the subtle observation factor...just coming off of 3 games where I was scum. the audio one on this site, TO and ratskep.

the eau de scum perfume has not worn off I suppose

This is a very clever statement that sounds good on the surface but really boils down to saying, "I know I looked scummy but I just played 3 games as scum in a row and so its not my fault" but at the same time she demonstrates deep knowledge of scum game play (especially evidenced by her most recent posts). I find this to be manipulative and a serious case of cog-dis; which is she, an expert player or one that is swayed by forces beyond her control?

My opinion at this point is that she is trying to weasel her way out of suspicion in any way that she can and the cog-dis here is pretty good evidence of that.

manipulative eh? where is the cog-dis btw?

Ok, I missed that you asked that question while quoting my post.

The cog-dis is how you use the faulty notion of "scum perfume" as an excuse for looking scummy. I would expect this defense from someone with less than 9 games, not somebody with over 90. The dissonance comes with other of your defense when you demonstrate deep knowledge of scum play. You can't possibly expect me to believe that somehow because you played scum your last 3 games that you can't help looking scummy; if you look scummy as scum then you are either a newb or scum trying to pull the same sort of defense that you are trying to pull now. Based on your skill set, its just not possible that "scum perfume" even exists in your game and your using it as a defense shows a scum mindset that is trying to overcompensate for its guilt with a faulty excuse.

[Adam-12]

Taking your logic to its natural conclusion, you should be D1 lynched every game UNLESS your gameplay is naturally pro-town and you don't need to be concerned with how you look but you say, "My game IS gonna look scummy" in which case you aren't in the realm of logic at all.

my game is protown cos after a while people learn that I naturally arrive on scum at some point but it is true it takes a stronger player to pull the retards off of me and circumvent scum. my play tends to attract retards and scum who are looking for an easy lynch.

you fucked up adam you know I am not scum and now you are reaching in order to mainstay your vote. you should look up what "tanking" means.

by what you have posted I am either teh ultimate scum queen or what I am does not make sense to you what does not make sense to me is that you are trying to have it both ways which is why I am fosing you hardcore.

Ok, this post was misunderstood by me upon first glance.

Once I am done with my catchup, I will also evaluate her overall gameplay from the perspective of a very subtle "tanker" now that she admits and clarifies it here.

I still feel that post #595 is right on the mark regardless.

[Adam-12]

ALL of his posts (few I might add) are like this. What is the deal with these fence sitters this game? Guille, you are taking your sweet time which just may be how you play, but its lookin bad to me. I would much rather see you take time to compile a complete post, instead of leaving us with bits and pieces and have to wait a whole day to get part B.

@Guille: Why did you say earlier that because you "have to go home" you cannot devote more time to Mafia; shouldn't it be the opposite?

[Adam-12]

@Pirate Mollie: The only other game that you used the word Grooming was the Newbie 1286 game. I don't want to read through it, can you give me a summary of where that got you, considering you were town in that game.

@Guille: Can you please clarify what you were asking about in this post and why you asked it? It seems irrelevant to me and I don't see where you were going with that question.

[Adam-12]

adam, hawk boy, does that explain why mantis thinks that I am town? when you have played together that much you pretty much have a good grasp of their meta. while mantis and I both have the potential to sneak past each other as scum it is very rare that one of us will give the other a super strong town read and it not be correct.

@Mantis: So is that correct or is it you want to wait until later. I don't recall you commenting on this yet?

[Adam-12]

Sorry for all the posts I was catching up overnight. It was my fault for being lazy and not keeping up. I am still 4 pages back. Going to sleep now.

Just want to say that game state over the weekend suffered from the following things: Mala VLA, lack of Levi posting & replacement of Code. I expect that these things will be rectified by this evening. Even though we are at 25 pages for D1, I think as long as Bork & Guille keep posting, we will be doing very well and can safely proceed even farther into D1.

[Adam-12]

Adam.. Do you have a finished town game, here or another site?

Yes, if you ISO me its the only other game I have of record.

[Adam-12]

Sorry for all the posts I was catching up overnight. It was my fault for being lazy and not keeping up. I am still 4 pages back. Going to sleep now.

Just want to say that game state over the weekend suffered from the following things: Mala VLA, lack of Levi posting & replacement of Code. I expect that these things will be rectified by this evening. Even though we are at 25 pages for D1, I think as long as Bork & Guille keep posting, we will be doing very well and can safely proceed even farther into D1.

Sorry that should be Bork, Guille and MOST ESPECIALLY LEVI.

[Adam-12]

adam I don't think you quite get how cog-dis works. saying that I may be wearing eau de scum cologne cos of lingering scum games is not cog-dis it is an admission stating that I had a streak of scum games and sometimes when a player has this when they get into their next game they will sometimes post from what appears to be from a scum POV even though they are not.

So, with over 90 games under your belt, you actually still suffer from newb-scum disease? The answer is no, right? That is why it is cog-dis.

hawk boy is demonstrating cog-dis by keeping me in his scum pile when he has clearly stated that scum try to hide and blend in. he put his vote on me early and at a time when it was really obvious that I was not trying "hide" and "blend in". then he says that the reason I was not "hiding" and "blending in" was cos he and others wouldn't let me.

I believe his explanation of this. I don't think he is a robot.

cog-dis is also saying that when you apologised you were being sarcastic when it was sandwhiched between serious posts. not to mention it was also downright douchey if he was being sarcastic.

I accept douchey. Many of his posts cause me to laugh. He has style. Even if it was me in the crosshairs, at least I would be wagoned with style.

you should have trusted mantis's read on me she just watched me play 4 scum games (2 at TO, 1 at ratskep and the audio game here) she probably has a better grasp of my scum game then anything else that you guys can come up with.

This may be true with the caveat of what Hawk points out (knowing each other's weaknesses) and also what Guile has mentioned along the lines of Mantis' town read always being vague.

do you even remember why I drew so much suspicion? cos I sheeped malacat when other players had the assumption that it was still rvs.

Shrimp's notion that your vote was bad for wagoning I find and have found incorrect. Your vote was fine in and of itself (even though it should be noted because it is wagoning) because it was justified. It was the way that you went through the process of justifying it that made it scummy. Ultimately though, its just an RVS tell which is only a potential indicator.

[Adam-12]

Btw, your explanation of the RVS case shows the understanding that fits why your process of justifying it was scummy.

[Adam-12]

Back to catching up.

[Adam-12]

and guille with his 2 huge posts with a bunch of links, doesn't make me feel good about him. like i said before, if mollie is town, i think scum are really banking on getting her lynched today. and by guille making huge cases, it will provide town with all sorts of 'evidence' to lynch her. and then, when she flips town, guille will point back to his posts and say 'well, look at everything i had on her!' why is he going to such huge effort to get her lynched?

I disagree with this. Upon my re-read of Guille's two posts on the matter, I found it for the most part, well reasoned, especially her over-reaction to Hawk's Guille tarp and how Mollie insisting that I am treating her as town is cog-dis.

It is obvious though that Mantis is protecting Mollie in any way that she can. Even though I am starting to see that Mantis' posts are kind of with everything always qualified, I think she is genuinely scum hunting. I am hoping it might be a D1 issue and not a playstyle issue.

[Adam-12]

Levi!!! You are killing me. If you can, without going back to look at the post you quoted, paraphrase the whole thing, then I might believe you actually agree with it - the whole thing.

You quoted a post, and said "I agree". This is the most lazy, lackluster post full of nothing. You are being lazy and not contributing. If I didn't have you on my list of prob-town, you would be due for a D1 lynch. Keep it up and you will be the D2 lynch.

@hawk you are completely wrong about me quoting something and saying "I agree" what I said was that "believed this analysis makes her seem town to me" yes I technically agree with her disagreement about meta with you. but that wasn't what I was saying. nor was I saying that her disagreement with you made you scum. When I said later I agreed to it when you made your post about me quoting someone and wanting my "real" input I said it was because I agreed with it too. then you said that my agreement is lazy and not contributing. how is it not contributing? i'm giving you my thoughts even if they come from someone else. shouldn't that tell you my side of things and what I believe and how I act? and whether I am scum or town or not? and personally I don't think i'm going to make it to day 2. maybe i'm not lynched day 1, but I already claimed town and mafia is probably going to kill me during the night so you have nothing to worry about. and is that a threat by the way? you say you believe me to be town, but then you would go ahead and lynch me anyway? I claimed already. whether you believe me or not I see it scummy that you would do so much to want to lynch someone who is town.

Your ISO has become the lightest of any player here. Have you read every post in this game (caught up)?

[Adam-12]

LOL your summary reads very closely to my actual notes and actually is a little better than my notes for that post. >.<

[Adam-12]

Even though I think Mantis is scum hunting I think she can benefit from your advice as well since I have encountered several posts now where she pretty much says the same thing.

[Adam-12]

I am having personal issues in my life right now but I am going to fight to catch up -- it just might be a little slower than I would like.

[Adam-12]

You take actual notes? You work way harder than I do

I have found I don't always read things correctly the first time through. I think Mantis has the same issue. Taking notes forces me to mentally process what is said, its not 100% perfect but it is demonstrably better than simply reading.

[Adam-12]

Even though I think Mantis is scum hunting I think she can benefit from your advice as well since I have encountered several posts now where she pretty much says the same thing.

oh i tend to repeat myself, i become disillusioned into thinking that the more i say what i think to be true, the more it will come across as true!


anyway, what did you guys think of guille's latest posts?

Some of his points a I disagree with but as a whole I am liking his recovery process and mostly agree with him.

[Adam-12]

Even though I think Mantis is scum hunting I think she can benefit from your advice as well since I have encountered several posts now where she pretty much says the same thing.

What I meant here was that you seem to make statements that make a conclusion but don't give us insight as to why so we can properly gauge your perceptions.

[Adam-12]

@Levi: I believe you are town.

Just wanted to say that trying to determine a player's alignment, making cases on people and trying to obtain a lynch you agree with are the 3 top responsibilities of a town player. In order to do this we have to be honest about what we see. The key to determining a player's alignment, the foundation of the process, is: "Does this player believe what they are saying?", because scum have to lie, town almost never does.

Its OK to call people scummy for performing actions that you believe are scum motivated and can substantiate in words. In fact its one of your primary duties to do so. The goal is to find and lynch scum.

I know you have been lynched in the past and it didn't feel good. Its good to remember the reasons you were lynched so you don't repeat them again.

The reason why we must obtain a lynch as town is because if the day ends and we don't, we get "No Lynch" which means no flip and it is as if D1 has started over; this gives the advantage to scum.

That's why we must work hard to find the players who are lying in the thread and it should be the reason behind just about everything you post.

[Adam-12]

the scum cologne is something that I have noticed cos after

a

player comes off of a series of scum games they tend to post from a scum motivation i.e. obsessed about indies, special hunting, etc I am thinking of borealis that is why I track on her so hard.

Yes but your use of the scum cologne was not in defense of Borealis but in defense of yourself.

Why, not once, have you been able to refer to this in the first person (ie "I")?