Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[Mathdino]

I know what town Wisdom looks like, and he usually doesn't do that

Yeah, also look through what borkjerfkin told me to.

BMWS, that question I asked you earlier is now doubly important.

[Mathdino]

@Everyone

: Who would you want to lynch if not wgeurts or Wisdom? What are your thoughts on SilverWolf? (free pass on sheeping the above case; I think I kinda exhausted everything that can be said about her)

I can see Silverwolf as scum if Wgeurtes flips scum. But I'd rather lynch Wguertes first.

Red flag again; "I can see [scumbuddy] as scum if [townperson] is scum."

301 - Furthermore if Wisdom is town, I'm can see Silverwolf being scum after reading this.

Ooh, didn't catch this at first. Might have to rethink my read on Wisdom. However, I think it's notable that Victor rarely includes both his scumbuddies in the same sentence. I don't quite know what to make of this yet.

302 - Sure newbscum would do this. Particular since the scum don't have daychat so Wgeuertes has not had any opportunity to talk with his scumbuddies yet.

Yeeeeep wgeurts is town.

310 - Ok, I can totally see blindmewithscience as scum with Wgeurtes after this post. If Wgeurtes flips scum then he should be tomorrows flip. And if it is Wguetes + blindmewithscience then it's probably means it's not Silverwolf based on the second half of this post.

This seems to be what Mala caught. I think it's notable that he pointed out Silver/wgeurts first, however, and followed up with BMWS/wgeurts. Honestly, I'm more inclined to think of the first as deliberate linking and the latter as an afterthought. Not changing my read on BMWS.

[...]

This, by the way, is what Mala was referring to that apparently points "straight to Wis-scum". I wanted her to flesh out her read a bit more (hence why I kept asking about it) but it's notable that a Wisdom/Victor team would be very consistent on Victor's end.

Friendly reminder that if Wisdom is lynched and flips town, we better take out Constantine and Riddleton. I am literally unable to see a game where all 3 of these people are town. Seriously. It's pretty much impossible at this point.

[Mathdino]

Guys, I get what you're talking about and I assure you I didn't think about that at all when I posted it. I also don't think that's the case btw.

Who is scum?

[Mathdino]

Likely referring to scum in {Wisdom, Constantine, Riddleton}, but not sure.

Wisdom, PoE makes one of the above scum. Unless you want to go after BMWS or something (which would be daft, IMO).

[Mathdino]

No, we're not talking about it openly. If you understand, great, you can answer my question better.

Who is scum?

[Mathdino]

Wisdom, I want you to ISO the players you just pushed again, like bork asked me to do.

Then answer the question again.

[Mathdino]

Agreed. We don't need more discussion on this.

UNVOTE: Constantine
VOTE: Wisdom

Paging

BMWS

,

acryon

,

Riddleton

,

Newbie

.
If any of you don't understand, do the work yourself, seriously.

[Mathdino]

On your suspicions of bork, I really want to note that he waited a long time to open this discussion and only did when people worked together to pressure him on it.

That really reads opportunistic to you? Opportunism would be explaining the read when he first had it, pouncing on it.

[Mathdino]

The VD lynch sucked, nobody who was voting him ever gave any good reason for voting Victor. I hated it and wanted actual scum lynched.

This pings me a little

because it's a pretty hyperbolic/sensationalist take on what actually happened (the 'sucky' lynch that flipped scum vs the 'actual scum' that is both unflipped and, as far as I can tell, you're not actually pushing anymore)

my lynchpool today is probably:

Riddle
Constantine

Wisdom

Newbie

Would not surprise me if both scum were in there.

The rest of my play today is probably going to try to come up with compelling reasons that two of them are town

Wisdom definitely NOT scum w/ Newbie.

leaning newbie town now.

He needed an excuse? He could've jumped on your wagon ages ago, COMBINED with Mala's argument for you being scum, Wisdom.
By the time he made that votepost, he had multiple opportunities to get on your wagon, not even counting "Hey guys, I reread the game, and Wisdom looks scum because [REASONS]".

Edit: Haven't read acryon's post.

[Mathdino]

acryon i love you

please write all my cases for me

literally checked every one of those posts

everything checks out

Edit: It's not scum motivated. What you did was an error, sure. But you would be a helluva lot more careful about it if you were legit playing town.
I, on the other hand, can't understand how you don't see what I see when you ISO those players.

[Mathdino]

Edit: It's not scum motivated. What you did was an error, sure. But you would be a helluva lot more careful about it if you were legit playing town.
I, on the other hand, can't understand how you don't see what I see when you ISO those players.

Not really, in fact, if I was scum, I would be actively looking for such things and there's no chance I'd miss this.
I don't see what you see for the same reason I don't think they're scum together.

Holy shit, you're actually going with "too townish to be town".

Wisdom.

There are pretty much no alternatives.

Considering the correct play for you would probably to start pushing acryon, wouldn't be surprised if that happened in the next page.

[Mathdino]

-In 610 Wisdom mentions masons maybe voting each other to muddy the waters, and this doesn’t really make any sense at all. Town don’t vote players who are confirmed town to them; they either vote scum or vote to pressure those they are unsure about. Very weird comment to make, especially from someone with a good amount of experience.

More wrong. Masons have in mind that scum are looking for them. If they are smart, they'll try to fool scum into making false connections and muddying the waters. As such, voting each other is not that unlikely as you seem to present it.

You've made a logical error. I'm not going to convince you on this so this is mostly so people don't somehow fall for this muddying argument. Consider:

Behaviour A is something that most of the time only masons will do.
Thus, masons are capable of avoiding behaviour A.
This means that doing the opposite of A does not necessarily make someone a mason.
Well guess what.
Masons are still pretty much the only instances of behaviour A.
You don't need to play dumb anymore.

[Mathdino]

Behaviour A is something that most of the time only masons will do.
Thus, masons are capable of avoiding behaviour A.
This means that doing the opposite of A does not necessarily make someone a mason.
Well guess what.
Masons are still pretty much the only instances of behaviour A.
You don't need to play dumb anymore.

That doesn't mean that masons have to be sitting ducks. Anything that might confuse scum is useful.

Your logic disturb me.

No they don't HAVE to be.

But sometimes they ARE. If they display behaviour A, well, ya know what they say...

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and sits like a duck...

[Mathdino]

HAHAHAHAHAHA

You never asked me why I townread you for literally all of D1.

[Mathdino]

Doing that may make it harder for the scum to find the masons, but it also makes it harder for the town to find scum, and the latter is much more important than the former.

How? Do townies scumhunt based on who they think is a mason? That's plain silly.

Uh...

*raises hand*

[Mathdino]

It's relevant because you're going with the 'too townish to be town' argument for all of your scumreads. Like seriously, all of them.

[Mathdino]

No, I just dislike being townread

because scum buddy me all of the time. Therefore

when someone states a townread on me, I want to know the exact reasons

.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

You never asked me why I townread you for literally all of D1.

Didn't we already go over this?

How is that relevant?

lol'd

[Mathdino]

Pretty sure by now that Wisdom knows he'll get lynched and is drawing the discussion out for the benefit of the last scum member. No daytalk, right?

[Mathdino]

Hey guys, Wisdom's at L-1. I want to wait until everyone's read the thread and see who objects to this lynch before a hammer.

[Mathdino]

Ok bork since we're saying things as they are now.

Why the fuck would I post what I posted instead of noting to myself that those two are possible masons? Scum, like you're correctly saying, are constantly on the hunt for masons. How likely do you think it is to ignore such a connection and post something about it like I did? And how likely is it they'll just shut up, don't talk about any connections, and do their work at night?

Things are simple. I didn't even consider them being masons as I made that post, all I was thinking about was whether they make sense as scum together or not. Yes, looking back, I should have thought that that post could have helped scum greatly, but I just didn't. Because I haven't cared to look about who is mason.

So why are you pointing at this and call this scum? Do you think that I'm smart enough not to do this mistake as town but dumb enough to do it as scum? It doesn't make any sense.

1. Participation in discussion, the fact that the topic of Mala and Not_Mafia was 'hot' at the time.
2. The same as the likelihood of making that mistake as town. Unless you take scumnotes on the fly, I don't think you were actively searching for masons at that moment; you were focused on pushing Mala and NM.
3. Not shutting up like that isn't an inconsistency.
4. I'm actually not pointing at your slipup and calling it scum. I'm pointing at the fact that somehow you're totally aware of what you messed up with in that post, and that you continue to push Mala and NM, whose connection you clearly did notice.

[Mathdino]

Do we really need to get a claim to prove your reads are full of shit? Because I think that's exactly what you're going for.

[Mathdino]

You know what, I'm really really sorry for this Mala, but I think this is necessary. If you want to lynch me tomorrow for pointing this out, go ahead.

Nah even If he flips town you'd never get a lynch on me

Either you didn't ISO Mala when I told you to, or you're scum dragging this out.

[Mathdino]

If it's a VT drawing the NK, great, no problem.

Scum faking a mason would be dumb/unnecessary since all it takes to draw out another mason is a hardclaim.

Maybe she's faking a VT, sure.

But at the same time.
Her entire ISO.
It

reeks

of behaviour A.
I don't know how you could possibly think she's scum faking a VT faking a mason.

[Mathdino]

Agree with acryon that pretty much the entire town's input is going to be necessary for this. Will
UNVOTE: Wisdom
for now just in case town gets jumpy.

If I start talking about wisdom there's really no going back.

As long as you have the same scum pool as me (and you do, with one erroneous addition), just keep doing your thing)

I lol'd.

Edit: Guys, if anyone can confirm that Wisdom's reads are not full of shit, please do so. Even without my and acryon's votes, it's highly likely he'll get lynched otherwise.

[Mathdino]

Agreed. Wisdom-add the wack case on Mala as not making sense to me as town.

Mala shouldn't have had a case or a vote on her in the first place.

[Mathdino]

Uh, no, Constantine claimed VT and started fishing for masons after taunting the town by talking about how obvious the mason team was.

[Mathdino]

Yet you're basically unwilling to even consider the possibility that she's not town. I asked you who you'd want to lynch if Mala flips town for a reason, Wisdom (no it's not because I thought Mala was a mason, it's because this is stuff I can use later). You were unwilling to even consider that possibility. All of your D2 actions have hinged on Mala being the wagon.
She flips or confs herself town, you can easily be like "Oh, whoops, let's reconsider my 'reads' and push whatever's the easiest next lynch."

And honestly, Wisdom, the fact that she's the only one displaying that mason behaviour along with her buddy IN THIS GAME is kind of damning. The rest of us have either been attack dogs on everyone, or have explicitly or implicitly claimed VT.
You seriously seem to find her being scum faking a town-self who would fake a mason to draw the NK
is more likely than her being a mason.

Edit: Wisdom. No one else in this game has been doing that. Except Constantine actually but he's obviously not a mason.

[Mathdino]

She's hard defended her townreads, sure, but does she typically pick a townread from like page 3 and defend them for the rest of the game?
Does

anyone

?

Or is it more likely that she'd be like "Hey, so I don't like this post, although I still think he's town"?

[Mathdino]

When it comes to the Victor stuff, well, read this page. I find it hilarious that of the 2 people trying to stop the Victor wagon, one ran a counter case and logicked it out, while the other dismissed it through misrepping:

Translation: Victor is scum for tunneling. Your case sucks.

[Mathdino]

Please read this for more information. Victor made a baseless vote against Wgeurts, he invented new reasoning to support his fallacious claim as he goes along, as he doesn't want to believe the wagon he's trying to push is incorrect.

Translation: Victor is scum for tunneling.

Because town never tunnel, huh?

Your case sucks.

Sorry, did that off of memory, this is the correct quote.

[Mathdino]

This is Riddleton's original case. Wisdom chose to respond to 749, which was only on the low hanging fruit argument.
There were a multitude of other points in there. Not all of them were good, as I addressed, but Wisdom just dismisses the case entirely by boiling it down to one point.

[Mathdino]

Alright, I'll quit arguing. Let's keep things to this page until someone other than me, acryon, bork, Wisdom, and wgeurts posts so acryon's page top will be the first thing everyone sees.

wgeurts, obviously continue doing what you're doing.

[Mathdino]

I just have one question to ask, though.

Wisdom, what are you going to do if all your scumreads (NM, Mala, bork) flip town?

To answer that for myself (scumreads being Wisdom, Riddleton, Constantine) I'll turn to Malakittens and acryon.

[Mathdino]

BMWS is having RL trouble catching up. Newbie's not overly site active. wgeurts is presumably still working on his Mala tunnel and is likely in the past right now. Mala's asleep.

Riddleton's been actively posting in other games for days, including the past 12 hours.
So what's his problem?

[Mathdino]

I apologise, I didn't realise you were on V/LA, and your active lurking is site-wide.

Back to our regularly scheduled program.

[Mathdino]

V/LA maybe? Read my other games... I've said it there. So fuck off.

See the post directly after. I apologised because I didn't notice you were on V/LA (I was bored and phone posting).

[quote="In post 1590, borkjerfkin"

The mason team is Mala, N_M, and myself.

.

Why the fuck did you ouit the mason team like that?[/quote]Brother, Wisdom is scum and we literally just talked for 5 pages about why Mala and NM are masons. If you ISO them, it was INCREDIBLY obvious that Finn/bork was the other one. They never displayed suspicion on each other once.

You do realise, bork, that they're going to be the next 3 NKs, and the game's going to be mountainous from herein, which favours scum?

Doesn't matter. We kill 2 scum in a row, damn well favours town.

I don't agree with this. If this was true, then a mason would have been killed yesterday. I know, NKA sucks, but this would be optimal play for scum.

Optimal play was to kill TTH because she was one of the least manipulatible townies when it comes to Wisdom. I don't think they knew who the mason team was, or like I said, maybe thought TTH/acryon were masons.

^
Yeah. That's why I'm completely confused. Nobody counterclaimed Wisdom when he showed that he understood what TTH was talking about, so I figured TTH was probably right about Wisdom as a mason. If he knew he wasn't a mason, I wonder he didn't deny it...

vote: Wisdom

Also, that hint Malakittens left during twilight completely went over my head.

Newbie confirmed town.

We know the mason team. I'll wait for the confirmation.
I completely agree with Bork's decision to out the masons.

I didn't actually think wisdom was a mason, but I did want to protect him from being mislynched. I think this confirms my suspicion on newbie and acyron.

Don't respond, Math, don't respond, Math, you can do this...

And what specifically makes Wisdom town? Now don't say gut; Mafia's not a feeling game. It's about making evidence and cases, and gut isn't a valid reason to decide who or who not to lynch.

Hmm... speaking of wisdom... I'm remembering him saying that he caught Mala's softclaim during D1 twilight. What made his malapush valid then? (I'm going to make sure that Wisdom did actually say that, just to make sure I'm not messing poeple up.

Mafia actually is a feeling game... jussayin. Gut is a very valid reason if you know someone well. It's actually why I know you're town.
He already WIFOM'd the hell out of Mala's softclaim. I think he thought she was a VT and as I said, went for TTH/acryon or figured it'd be make a whack case on Mala and tunnel her the entire day (like he usually does) to get a claim out of her or lynch someone who's good at reading him.

All I have to say, bork, is Wisdom should've known damn right you were the mason team if he actually ISO'd you and did the work.
Constantine is just being dumb, still wanna PL him tomorrow.
Riddleton's back to casing, at least we have that.

I'll do the PoE myself. Mala, bork, NM, confirmed town. Leaves Wisdom, BMWS, acryon, Riddleton, Constantine, Newbie, wgeurts.
wgeurts is confirmed town due to interactions. If he was scum all along I'm giving him a goddamn medal.
BMWS extremely sure town.
There's scum in {Wisdom, Constantine, Riddleton}, but like I said, it doesn't make too much sense to push a lynch away from your partner and onto another partner. That said, it's still a viable play, and I'll look over interactions tomorrow to see if we can get anything out of this.
If there's not 2 scum in the above and Wisdom flips town, Newbie is scum.
If there's STILL not 2 scum found, it's acryon.

[Mathdino]

You know what, it's Wisdom/Riddleton. That has to be it. Everything about D1 points to Victor/SilverWolf having been a team, especially given the meta analysis. Riddleton still decided to go barrel off after Mala anyway even with the evidence in his face.
Why doesn't this nullify the "doesn't makes sense to distract mislynch with mislynch"? By the time we switched to Riddleton, it was pretty obvious that wasn't gaining any traction at all. The only real people in danger yesterday were wgeurts, Wisdom, Constantine, and Victor; Riddle was barely on the table.

And then even after supporting the SilverWolf/Riddleton lynch D1, Wisdom's been defending his trying to lynch himself all day.

Wisdom/Constantine is impossible, as is Wisdom/wgeurts still. Riddleton's the last scum.

[Mathdino]

Have you ever seen a group of players who've hard defended like that for an entire game, not even pointing out scummy behaviours? Not once did they move out of the null category. One of them put the other 2 masons in nullreads. One started doting over the other 2's posting. One just defended and sheeped the others.

This just doesn't happen. Usually there aren't obvious behaviours to tell them from, yes, but anyone who ISOs them can see it's pretty friggin obvious.

Again, you went with "too townish to be town". The fact of the matter is though, 3 VTs have no motivation to put on a mason act so the scum don't catch them.

Edit: LOL WGEURTS LOL

[Mathdino]

So the best assumption is they were A. VTs who all knew each other was pretending to be a mason, or B. 2 scum buddying a VT to oblivion and the VT doesn't care and decides to reciprocate?

No one other than masons display that behaviour. I agree that masons shouldn't be that obvious, but your "masons shouldn't be obvious" argument has been logically fallacious for a while now.

[Mathdino]

You do realise, bork, that they're going to be the next 3 NKs, and the game's going to be mountainous from herein, which favours scum?

I am convinced that was going to happen anyway. Certainly if it's Wisdom and his 'the whole mason team is my scumlist' schtick that I don't buy at all.

But I'm also forcing day play down a specific road.

This is why we should've been avoiding pre-flip associative, jesus. Already had more than enough associative from Victor to get a lynch.

[Mathdino]

Mala, if Wisdom flips town and you die, who do we lynch? Unless some total pro bags NM's slot, you seem like the primary NK target.

[Mathdino]

You wanna know what's really shitty.

Besides gut, VDA's meta research analysis and Wisdom being off the lynch and being abouestly hard-headed against it I wanna get him lynched.

I don't really see why MathDino is wanting is to get lynched one after another. It's lining up lynches if both Wisdom and I are town and I hate that.

(even then I'd still win over Wisdom)

For your viewing enjoyment

Anyway.

@Wisdom

: If you're town, can you write a case for last words? Lay all your cards on the table. Like I said, your thought process seems fairly similar to mine (most of the time) so I'll try to push a lynch on your case target tomorrow since it looks like I won't get NK'd anytime soon.

Honestly I still prefer Riddleton but if you want to go with Constantine I really have no business complaining, haha.

[Mathdino]

What's the scum motivation in doing what he says I did?

There's no scum motivation in leading town on a wild goose chase / pushing lynches you know won't go through? Like what I did the last time I played this setup?

In fact

http://www.quicktopic.com/49/H/KpjZBCV3DsW
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=25295

I want people to at least experience how scum mindset works in this setup. Last time I played this I had the mason team narrowed down to two possible sets on D1 of a game I had just replaced into. I whiffed on the kill N1, but after that I knew who the team was exactly. It's not that hard to find a set of three masons; they have all the associatives scum have and more because they're not afraid to hard buddy each other. Scum probably knew post TTH flip. TTH was pretty fucking town though so I can't begrudge them that kill.

That didn't stop me from pushing them on subsequent days, because it 1) wastes tons of time (I am actively trying to make sure this doesn't happen anymore today because it's getting out of hand) 2) still looks like scumhunting and 3) forcing the claim allows you to make a 0 info nightkill and 4) sometimes the game just naturally moves there (this happened a lot in my case)

If I may, I'd like everyone to read this QT, if not the thread (good read). This

perfectly

illustrates the motivation in trying to run up a potential mason; nothing is really sure.
So yes, I've read games with masons.

[Mathdino]

You've made 6 pages while I slept, can someone sum them up?

bork's vote on Wisdom was due to 1287, in which Wisdom said, to paraphrase, "Mala and NM are definitely not a team together since they've been buddying and voting together all game".

I forced bork to force me to understand this vote. He told me to ISO the players Wisdom's been pushing today.

I ISO'd them, realised immediately that Mala, NM, and bork were the masons (didn't say this) and realised Wisdom was probably scum. His entire scumlist is literally the mason team.

acryon came back and wrote up a long case on Wisdom that admittedly has a lot of confbias.

Riddleton wrote a Riddlecase on Mala.

bork got pissed off at no one understanding what was going on and outed the mason team.

BMWS came back and got mad about the mason team but otherwise has been fairly neutral (also declared V/LA).

Mala has yet to comment.

[Mathdino]

Oh yeah, and Constantine being dumb as usual and Riddleton getting really pissed off at bork for outing the team (he proceeded to vote Constantine). ISO the mod if you want to see where votes are. acryon and I unvoted so we don't get a quickhammer.

[Mathdino]

Got a case coming up? When I say last words, I mean you're pretty much on your deathbed already; I don't mean a twilight case.

[Mathdino]

Okay.

VOTE: Wisdom

Also, just realised,

@Mala

, don't answer that question I asked you about who to lynch if Wisdom flips town. Just discuss in the QT and one of you can post what the dead mason thought.

[Mathdino]

I actually didn't know who the masons were until we forced bork to explain his read. Why would I lie about that?
The moment bork asked me to read the interactions of the players you were pushing, I looked at Mala and NM. Immediately knew they were masons. Then I looked through the playerlist and saw that FinnLaw was the only one neither of them scumread and who didn't scumread either of them at any point in the game. Thus explaining all of bork's behaviour.

I don't know if anyone else knew for sure. But it was pretty obvious to me at least.

[Mathdino]

wgeurts, if Wisdom doesn't really have much more to say, I'm kinda just waiting on your read through to ask for a hammer. The masons should discuss in their PT and we all know who they want to lynch right now. acryon's given his thoughts. Constantine and Riddleton are being dumb. BMWS isn't coming back til the weekend but hasn't displayed objections. Newbie's already decided.

Just waiting on your input.

[Mathdino]

I just have one question to ask, though.

Wisdom, what are you going to do if all your scumreads (NM, Mala, bork) flip town?

To answer that for myself (scumreads being Wisdom, Riddleton, Constantine) I'll turn to Malakittens and acryon.

This is proof that I didn't retroactively decide I always knew who the masons were; I put bork in there for a reason. I put Mala in my own answer because if all those scumreads are actually town, it was pretty much likely Mala wasn't a mason after all.

[Mathdino]

It shouldn't be obvious from reading the game. It only becomes obvious if you ISO Mala and NM and then include Finn/bork.

I'm not saying everyone should've picked this up. But everyone should've picked this up the moment bork explained his vote on you if they did their homework.

Anyway, you drive a good point, hindered only by the fact that Constantine could just be messing with us all. Will push Constantine tomorrow if you flip town.

Who is Constantine's partner?

[Mathdino]

You don't think Constantine tried to bus Victor and acryon to implicate me?

I still kinda like that theory in absence of Wisdom/Constantine and Constantine/Riddleton being a possibility.

[Mathdino]

I was also pretty not-mason, so I could see why they'd want to avoid NKing me.

Here's the thing. Constantine hasn't dropped his scumread on acryon

all game

. acryon is the ONLY one other than Victor that he hasn't even considered being town. He at least changed me to a slighter scumread, dropped his Riddleton/SilverWolf stuff, etc etc.

Constantine ALWAYS seems a bit too sure, but he seems a bit too too sure on acryon.

[Mathdino]

Hmm, let's look at the interactions between Victor, BMWS, and Constantine real quick. Just for the record guys, I'm treating Wisdom like a dead townie for now because we might as well get as much as we can just in case we're wrong.

Victor's first reference to BMWS. "Blindmewithscience is sitting back too much with this post. Especially considering it's his only one outside of rvs. I still like my vote on Wguerts, but I really wish I had a second one for blindmewithscience."

This is BMWS's first response to Victor. BMWS seems to have pretty much missed the whole early Victor FoS wagon; by the time he's playing the game, wgeurts is going full jester play (jk ofc).

356, I mentioned this earlier. Victor links up wgeurts, a townie, with BMWS. He has, of course, already done this with Wisdom and SilverWolf, thus generating Mala's lynchpool of {Wisdom, BMWS, Riddleton, wgeurts}.

"I don't like you, Constantine"] -

everyone in this game

BMWS. He basically reacts to everything Const's said up to that point with total indignation, a hard vote, but the one that really makes me question that this is a bus is pressuring Constantine for his meta. Why would BMWS want that? Would he ask that just for towncred (which he didn't really need)?

Here BMWS gives a summary of this thoughts on Constantine, Riddleton, and the Victor case. His thoughts on Constantine consist of similar indignation, and he criticises Riddleton for not fully responding to my and Wisdom's thoughts on the Victor case. He seems to be a little fencesitty on the Riddleton thing, I can see him wanting to go for that instead of a scumpartner at this point.

But this post is what seals BMWS-town for me, tbh. He continues to question Constantine for meta saying he'd "like to read it during night phase". He does comment on how the Riddleton wagon could be done by the deadline, but that doesn't really read scum for me.

890 gives another summary of the Constantine and Victor wagons, pretty much throwing out the possibility of a Riddleton lynch. He does the same thing Wisdom did, refusing to participate in the Victor wagon, instead opting for Constantine. That's what's confusing. And then here he literally says "THe things is, you voted way too early... No defense from victor, and we were trying to go for a Constantine lynch." Now, I could probably confbias myself into thinking that statement is scummy ("we were trying to go for a different wagon") but scummy with Constantine as scum? No way. Seems completely arbitrary that he'd decide to draw that line in the sand between his scum partners.

BMWS D2 continues to show disappointment with everything Constantine says. No real change. I don't think Constantine's ever said BMWS's name, correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not seeing it. What do you see?

[Mathdino]

"I don't like you, Constantine" -

everyone in this game

BMWS. He basically reacts to everything Const's said up to that point with total indignation, a hard vote, but the one that really makes me question that this is a bus is pressuring Constantine for his meta. Why would BMWS want that? Would he ask that just for towncred (which he didn't really need)?

Here BMWS gives a summary of this thoughts on Constantine, Riddleton, and the Victor case. His thoughts on Constantine consist of similar indignation, and he criticises Riddleton for not fully responding to my and Wisdom's thoughts on the Victor case. He seems to be a little fencesitty on the Riddleton thing, I can see him wanting to go for that instead of a scumpartner at this point.

FTFMe.

[Mathdino]

For sure, hang on.

[Mathdino]

DUDE THAT WAS A HAMMER
UNVOTE: Wisdom

[Mathdino]

FFS.

Okay, Constantine or Riddleton goes down tomorrow. Constantine for pissing me off, Riddleton for probably being the actual scum. BMWS or acryon is partner.

[Mathdino]

MOD STUFF

Here's some expensive wine for saulres. Thanks for doing those VC's. Things were hectic while I was away.

VOTE COUNT!!!!

Wisdom- malakittens, Not_Mafia, borkjerfkin, Newbie
borkjerkfin-
wgeurts-
St. Constantine The Hermit- Riddleton
Newbie-
Malakittens- wgeurts
Riddleton- St. Constantine
Not_Mafia-Wisdom
Mathdino-
blindmewithscience-
acryon-

not voting- blindmewithscience, acryon, Mathdino

Riddleton is V/LA until 11/5/2014
malakittens is V/LA until 11/11/2014
Looking for a replacement for Not_Mafia


With 11 Alive it's 6 to lynch.
(expired on 2014-11-14 21:00:00)


Wow it really did take everyone forever to get ready for Brunch!!! It took so long to get ready that Brunch is no longer being served!!! Wow what chaos, what disarray! You know what? It was probably due to the enemies. Now, the big question is...should you guys just have lunch or move on to Dance Dance Revolution...

UNVOTE:

VOTE: constantine

Okay.

VOTE: Wisdom

Also, just realised,

@Mala

, don't answer that question I asked you about who to lynch if Wisdom flips town. Just discuss in the QT and one of you can post what the dead mason thought.

VOTE: Wisdom
Stupid iPod typo, your now L1 or L2, claim.

Nice going, man.

Eh, regardless, not like we're gonna lose any opinions tonight. Wisdom, I'll try to look through Riddleton/BMWS ASAP. Since you already got lynched, want to provide that case now?

[Mathdino]

D1: OH SORRY FOR HAMMERING I DIDN'T REALISE THE DEADLINE WAS HALF A DAY AWAY

D2: OH SORRY FOR HAMMERING I DIDN'T REALISE THE GUY WASN'T AT L-3

D3: OH SORRY FOR HAMMERING I DIDN'T REALISE THE GUY WAS TOWN
...
D5: OH SORRY FOR HAMMERING I'M SCUM

^Predicted trajectory of game.

[Mathdino]

wgeurts, all your suspects are masons or dead.

You need to look through Riddleton, Constantine, and Victor. One of the former two is getting lynched tomorrow. I'm saying you should do this now because I really want Wisdom's input on this.

[Mathdino]

This would be so hilarious if Wisdom was actually scum and didn't notice that he was hammered. Fair possibility, actually xD

[Mathdino]

Finally. So I did this right before the mod locked the thread, coloured it afterwards. Will analyse based on NK flip in a sec.

Spoiler: VC IIoA

Structure:
[Voter] -> [Votee], [number of votes on Votee], [stated reason if any (I'll put a link if there's a bunch of reasoning)]
[Unvoter] XX [Unvotee], [number of votes on Unvotee], [stated reason if any]

acryon

->

Victor

, 1, RV (later says vote stands due to Victor's questioning/defending)

Mathdino

->

SilverWolf

, 1, RV

Victor

->

Mathdino

, 1, RV

BMWS

->

TTH

, 1, RV

Wisdom

->

NM

, 1, RV

SilverWolf

->

Mathdino

, 2, RV/jokingly OMGUS

Malakittens

->

Wisdom

, 1, RV

Wisdom

XX

NM

, 0

Wisdom

->

Mathdino

, 3, "I like wagons"

wgeurts

->

Wisdom

, 2, "this is not sitting well with me"

wgeurts

XX

Wisdom

, 1, "it's all a reaction test"/"there's nothing to gain here"

Victor

XX

Mathdino

, 2

Victor

->

wgeurts

, 1, no stated reason

Mathdino

XX

SilverWolf

, 0

Mathdino

->

Victor

, 2, asking suspicious questions

TTH

->

Wisdom

, 2, "Not_Mafia and Wisdom have both telegraphed scumreads on Victor, but they seem a lot more guarded about it"

SilverWolf

XX

Mathdino

, 1

SilverWolf

->

Victor

, 3, "making way too much of a simple question as though you are looking for a reason to suspect someone"

Malakittens

XX

Wisdom

, 1

Malakittens

->

acryon

, 1, "I don't like Acyron injecting here"/forced looking posts

Newbie

->

wgeurts

, 2, reaction testing and general sketchiness

wgeurts

->

Newbie

, 1, "her vote was very opportunistic and he hasn't scum hunted"

Mathdino

XX

Victor

, 2

Mathdino

->

wgeurts

, 3, mason fishing

BMWS

XX

TTH

, 0

BMWS

->

wgeurts

, 4, "to add pressure on you so that you'll create a good defense to Mathdino's accusations"

wgeurts

XX

Newbie

wgeurts

->

wgeurts

, 5, "I'm town and I'd rather die quickly and give you info"

wgeurts

XX

wgeurts

, 4, "As requested"

Wisdom

XX

Mathdino

, 0

Wisdom

->

wgeurts

, 5, "I don't like this quick recovery"

wgeurts

->

Wisdom

, 2, =24679#p6313218]Here's the votepost and here's his case later on

SilverWolf

XX

Victor

, 1

SilverWolf

->

Wisdom

, 3, "You remind me of scum trying to push the easiest mislynch"

Newbie

XX

wgeurts

, 4

Newbie

->

Wisdom

, 4, "I actually agree with the case [wgeurts] made against you"

Mathdino

XX

wgeurts

, 3

Mathdino

->

SilverWolf

, 1, Here's the context but just read my case if you wanna know

Mathdino

XX

SilverWolf

, 0

Mathdino

->

wgeurts

, 4, SilverWolf descended to 2nd on my scumlist

acryon

XX

Victor

, 0

acryon

->

SilverWolf

, 1, Here's his case and here's another

Mathdino

XX

wgeurts

, 3

Mathdino

->

SilverWolf

, 2, I didn't like her reaction to me/Wisdom/acryon

Malakittens

XX

acryon

, 0, "I do like Acyron's latest posts so .... yeah..."

Constantine

->

Victor

, 1, no stated reason

Mathdino

XX

SilverWolf/Riddleton

, 1, she was getting replaced

Constantine

XX

Victor

, 0, no stated reason

NM

->

Victor

, 1, no stated reason

Constantine

->

Mathdino

, 1, thinks I'm scum with Victor

BMWS

XX

wgeurts

, 2

BMWS

->

Constantine

, 1 "I don't like you, Constantine

Wisdom

XX

wgeurts

, 1

Wisdom

->

Malakittens

, 1, "I'm not happy with her play. She needs to do more, starting with explaining her reads."

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 2, pointing out associations

Constantine

XX

Mathdino

, 0, "Emotion is a town tell"

Constantine

->

Victor

, 2, no stated reason

TTH

XX

Wisdom

, 3, confusion

wgeurts

XX

Wisdom

, 2

wgeurts

->

Constantine

, 3, "for all these comtradictions"

TTH

->

Victor

, 3, PoE and looking through ISO

TTH

XX

Victor

, 2, "I'm having a reference frame crisis."

Newbie

XX

Wisdom

, 1, let's not talk about this

Riddleton

XX

Wisdom

, 0

Riddleton

->

Victor

, 3, muddafuckin' case

TTH

->

Victor

, 4, here ya go

Wisdom

XX

Malakittens

, 0

Wisdom

->

Constantine

, 4, "bullshit about scumtells"

acryon

XX

Riddleton

, 0

acryon

->

Constantine

, 5, mini case

Mathdino

XX

Constantine

, 4

Mathdino

->

Riddleton

, 1, "more likely lynch"

Newbie

->

Victor

, 5, reasons above

Wisdom

XX

Constantine

, 3

Wisdom

->

Riddleton

, 2, probably same as me

wgeurts

XX

Constantine

, 2

wgeurts

->

Victor

, 6, no stated reason

Mathdino

XX

Riddleton

, 1

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 3, "Riddleton's last post is convincing enough"

Wisdom

XX

Riddleton

, 0

Wisdom

->

Constantine

, 4, presumably to get a lynch

Malakittens

->

Victor

, 7, HAMMERTIME

Spoiler: VCI&A

Malakittens

->

Wisdom

, 1, not going to try to explain this

Riddleton

->

Malakittens

, 1, unknown

Constantine

->

acryon

, 1, unknown (-_-)

Constantine

XX

acryon

, 0

Constantine

->

Mathdino

, 1, disagreement on RVS tells

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 1, reasons already explained + bad lynching strategies

Newbie

->

Wisdom

, 1, presumably D1 reasons + flip

Mathdino

XX

Constantine

, 0

Mathdino

->

Riddleton

, 1, case

Wisdom

->

Malakittens

, 2, case

Not_Mafia

->

Wisdom

, 2, unknown

Newbie

XX

Wisdom

, 2, "I want to see what acryon has to say"

Constantine

XX

Mathdino

, 0

Constantine

->

acryon

, 1, unknown (-__-)

Wisdom

XX

Malakittens

, 1

Wisdom

->

Not_Mafia

, 1, not answering questions

wgeurts

->

Not_Mafia

, 2, ditto

acryon

->

Constantine

, 1, case + D1 reasons

borkjerfkin

->

Constantine

, 2, not answering questions or explaining arguments

borkjerfkin

XX

Constantine

, 1

borkjerfkin

->

Riddleton

, 2, Victor interactions

Mathdino

XX

Riddleton

, 1

Mathdino

->

Not_Mafia

, 3, pressure

Mathdino

XX

Not_Mafia

, 2, playing his town meta

Mathdino

->

Riddleton

, 2

Newbie

->

Wisdom

, 3, likes this post by acryon

Newbie

XX

Wisdom

, 2, wgeurts wrote a "solid case" on Mala

Mathdino

XX

Riddleton

, 1

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 2, mason fishing

borkjerfkin

XX

Riddleton

, 0

borkjerfkin

->

Wisdom

, 3, because "1287 is absolute balls"

Mathdino

XX

Constantine

, 1, not feeding the troll

Mathdino

->

Riddleton

, 1

Constantine

XX

acryon

, 0

Constantine

->

Riddleton

, 2, to sheep

Riddleton

XX

Malakittens

, 0

Riddleton

->

Constantine

, 2, "The overreaction coupled with the hardcore defence of me makes me want to reevaluate my townread on him."

Mathdino

XX

Riddleton

, 1

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 3, policy

wgeurts

XX

Not_Mafia

, 1

wgeurts

->

Malakittens

, 1, case

Let's do this again real quick.

Spoiler: VCIIoA

Mathdino

XX

Constantine

, 2

Mathdino

->

Wisdom

, 4, read the thread if you don't know why

acryon

XX

Constantine

, 1

acryon

->

Wisdom

, 5, case

Mathdino

XX

Wisdom

, 4, "just in case town gets jumpy."

acryon

XX

Wisdom

, 3, see above

Riddleton

XX

Constantine

, 0

Riddleton

->

Malakittens

, 2, Riddlecase

Riddleton

XX

Malakittens

, 1, borkjerfkin claims mason

Riddleton

->

Constantine

, 1

Newbie

->

Wisdom

, 4, "If he knew he wasn't a mason, I wonder he didn't deny it..."

Wisdom

XX

Not_Mafia

, 0, borkjerfkin claims mason

Wisdom

->

Constantine

, 2, WKing

Mathdino

->

Wisdom

, 5, to get last words/case out of him

wgeurts

->

Wisdom

, 6, HAMMERTIME

Edit: Dammit.

[Mathdino]

Victor, BMWS, and SilverWolf/Riddleton

Post 85 by SilverWolf is the first interaction, in which SW semi-awkwardly rambles about how Victor questioning about meta is weird: "It's possible you just want to question Mathdino like you said, but this seems an odd thing to question him about" and ends up FoSing him and voting him. After Mala questions, 98 rambles more and pretty much sheeps the suspicions of others (we went over this).

Here in 121 SW quotes a damn good remark by acryon by calling him out like Mala did on answering questions for people: "You say you are worried about scum controlling the flow of conversations, but don't you think you are doing the same thing by injecting yourself into the conversation and trying to control it?"

This is odd.

SW is currently voting Victor, yet she takes the hypocrisy argument on acryon, in effect soft defending him.

This entire post by Victor, as I said, points to SilverWolf. Nothing new here.

WHOA. Okay. This is weird. wgeurts claims there was scum on his wagon, and SilverWolf responds saying Newbie and I were town and

outright asks him if it's VDA or BMWS

. I don't know if scum like to talk about their teammates like that so overtly.

Input please?

Victor responds saying that wagon analysis is useless preflip.

BMWS's first post directed at SW. He criticises her "incredibly charged response" to my case on her and saying she was "attacking him for pointing out that you haven't posted anything of value. I'm not quite sure how much this affects my opinions of you, Silver", ending the post saying he liked her point on Wisdom and is still undecided. Hmm. Would there be much point in jumping on the interrogation train with a townie while slamming his scumbuddy's reaction? He didn't exactly drop it later. SW responds to BMWS's later summary just saying that she'd deadline lynch wgeurts and thinks BMWS is town.

Once again, Victor's next reads list points straight to SW, saying "If Wisdom is town I can see SilverWolf being scum" and "If Wgeurtes flips scum then [BMWS] should be tomorrows flip". VDA and Silver then have an interesting interaction starting here, where they argue about the case on Silver and Victor criticises her for trying to pull hypocrisy on acryon.

Here BMWS remains undecided on Silver, saying "The arguments against her are much, much stronger than her (pretty weak) defenses" and then following up by asking SilverWolf to create a defence "in order to prevent [his] conversion". Then in response, SilverWolf flip flops on BMWS completely, calling him out for IIoA and opportunism. BMWS responds explaining that he's trying to come to a good decision and once again asks her to make a defence.

Heh. SilverWolf's reads list and her reads on Victor, TTH, and wgeurts. Still slightly suspicious of BMWS, townread on Victor.

448 is another response to BMWS claiming wgeurts/Silver would be possible, and she asks him "How common is it for scum to blatantly defend their partners in these games knowing it will be linked back to them because I haven't seen it." One a sidenote, I think this post semi-proves how unlikely Riddleton/acryon are, seeing as SW pretty much slammed him for what she saw as attributing other people's posts to her, but implicitly townread him as he's "searching for anything to build a case".

Enter Riddleton. Everything that can be said about Riddleton/Victor's been said already. 833 discusses the problems with Riddleton's case and asks Riddleton to defend against Wisdom, to which Riddle refuses.

From there on, not much other interaction. However, I noticed a glaring point.
Does anyone else think BMWS would've just asked his scumpartners what TTH, Newbie, and Wisdom were talking about when TTH convinced herself Wisdom was scum? There's no reason he should have to ask again, since he said he thought he got it. A ton of questions could've been answered N1. Honestly that one point hammers home BMWS-town independent of who the next scum we bag is.
Hmm. PoE and plans in the next post.

[Mathdino]

Finally. So I did this right before the mod locked the thread, coloured it afterwards. Will analyse based on NK flip in a sec.

Spoiler: VC IIoA

Structure:
[Voter] -> [Votee], [number of votes on Votee], [stated reason if any (I'll put a link if there's a bunch of reasoning)]
[Unvoter] XX [Unvotee], [number of votes on Unvotee], [stated reason if any]

acryon

->

Victor

, 1, RV (later says vote stands due to Victor's questioning/defending)

Mathdino

->

SilverWolf

, 1, RV

Victor

->

Mathdino

, 1, RV

BMWS

->

TTH

, 1, RV

Wisdom

->

NM

, 1, RV

SilverWolf

->

Mathdino

, 2, RV/jokingly OMGUS

Malakittens

->

Wisdom

, 1, RV

Wisdom

XX

NM

, 0

Wisdom

->

Mathdino

, 3, "I like wagons"

wgeurts

->

Wisdom

, 2, "this is not sitting well with me"

wgeurts

XX

Wisdom

, 1, "it's all a reaction test"/"there's nothing to gain here"

Victor

XX

Mathdino

, 2

Victor

->

wgeurts

, 1, no stated reason

Mathdino

XX

SilverWolf

, 0

Mathdino

->

Victor

, 2, asking suspicious questions

TTH

->

Wisdom

, 2, "Not_Mafia and Wisdom have both telegraphed scumreads on Victor, but they seem a lot more guarded about it"

SilverWolf

XX

Mathdino

, 1

SilverWolf

->

Victor

, 3, "making way too much of a simple question as though you are looking for a reason to suspect someone"

Malakittens

XX

Wisdom

, 1

Malakittens

->

acryon

, 1, "I don't like Acyron injecting here"/forced looking posts

Newbie

->

wgeurts

, 2, reaction testing and general sketchiness

wgeurts

->

Newbie

, 1, "her vote was very opportunistic and he hasn't scum hunted"

Mathdino

XX

Victor

, 2

Mathdino

->

wgeurts

, 3, mason fishing

BMWS

XX

TTH

, 0

BMWS

->

wgeurts

, 4, "to add pressure on you so that you'll create a good defense to Mathdino's accusations"

wgeurts

XX

Newbie

wgeurts

->

wgeurts

, 5, "I'm town and I'd rather die quickly and give you info"

wgeurts

XX

wgeurts

, 4, "As requested"

Wisdom

XX

Mathdino

, 0

Wisdom

->

wgeurts

, 5, "I don't like this quick recovery"

wgeurts

->

Wisdom

, 2, =24679#p6313218]Here's the votepost and here's his case later on

SilverWolf

XX

Victor

, 1

SilverWolf

->

Wisdom

, 3, "You remind me of scum trying to push the easiest mislynch"

Newbie

XX

wgeurts

, 4

Newbie

->

Wisdom

, 4, "I actually agree with the case [wgeurts] made against you"

Mathdino

XX

wgeurts

, 3

Mathdino

->

SilverWolf

, 1, Here's the context but just read my case if you wanna know

Mathdino

XX

SilverWolf

, 0

Mathdino

->

wgeurts

, 4, SilverWolf descended to 2nd on my scumlist

acryon

XX

Victor

, 0

acryon

->

SilverWolf

, 1, Here's his case and here's another

Mathdino

XX

wgeurts

, 3

Mathdino

->

SilverWolf

, 2, I didn't like her reaction to me/Wisdom/acryon

Malakittens

XX

acryon

, 0, "I do like Acyron's latest posts so .... yeah..."

Constantine

->

Victor

, 1, no stated reason

Mathdino

XX

SilverWolf/Riddleton

, 1, she was getting replaced

Constantine

XX

Victor

, 0, no stated reason

NM

->

Victor

, 1, no stated reason

Constantine

->

Mathdino

, 1, thinks I'm scum with Victor

BMWS

XX

wgeurts

, 2

BMWS

->

Constantine

, 1 "I don't like you, Constantine

Wisdom

XX

wgeurts

, 1

Wisdom

->

Malakittens

, 1, "I'm not happy with her play. She needs to do more, starting with explaining her reads."

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 2, pointing out associations

Constantine

XX

Mathdino

, 0, "Emotion is a town tell"

Constantine

->

Victor

, 2, no stated reason

TTH

XX

Wisdom

, 3, confusion

wgeurts

XX

Wisdom

, 2

wgeurts

->

Constantine

, 3, "for all these comtradictions"

TTH

->

Victor

, 3, PoE and looking through ISO

TTH

XX

Victor

, 2, "I'm having a reference frame crisis."

Newbie

XX

Wisdom

, 1, let's not talk about this

Riddleton

XX

Wisdom

, 0

Riddleton

->

Victor

, 3, muddafuckin' case

TTH

->

Victor

, 4, here ya go

Wisdom

XX

Malakittens

, 0

Wisdom

->

Constantine

, 4, "bullshit about scumtells"

acryon

XX

Riddleton

, 0

acryon

->

Constantine

, 5, mini case

Mathdino

XX

Constantine

, 4

Mathdino

->

Riddleton

, 1, "more likely lynch"

Newbie

->

Victor

, 5, reasons above

Wisdom

XX

Constantine

, 3

Wisdom

->

Riddleton

, 2, probably same as me

wgeurts

XX

Constantine

, 2

wgeurts

->

Victor

, 6, no stated reason

Mathdino

XX

Riddleton

, 1

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 3, "Riddleton's last post is convincing enough"

Wisdom

XX

Riddleton

, 0

Wisdom

->

Constantine

, 4, presumably to get a lynch

Malakittens

->

Victor

, 7, HAMMERTIME

Day's long enough that I don't want to have to do this again in full by twilight. This time this'll actually have a point, though.

Spoiler: VCI&A

Malakittens

->

Wisdom

, 1, not going to try to explain this

Riddleton

->

Malakittens

, 1, unknown

Constantine

->

acryon

, 1, unknown (-_-)

Constantine

XX

acryon

, 0

Constantine

->

Mathdino

, 1, disagreement on RVS tells

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 1, reasons already explained + bad lynching strategies

Newbie

->

Wisdom

, 1, presumably D1 reasons + flip

Mathdino

XX

Constantine

, 0

Mathdino

->

Riddleton

, 1, case

Wisdom

->

Malakittens

, 2, case

Not_Mafia

->

Wisdom

, 2, unknown

Newbie

XX

Wisdom

, 2, "I want to see what acryon has to say"

Constantine

XX

Mathdino

, 0

Constantine

->

acryon

, 1, unknown (-__-)

Wisdom

XX

Malakittens

, 1

Wisdom

->

Not_Mafia

, 1, not answering questions

wgeurts

->

Not_Mafia

, 2, ditto

acryon

->

Constantine

, 1, case + D1 reasons

borkjerfkin

->

Constantine

, 2, not answering questions or explaining arguments

borkjerfkin

XX

Constantine

, 1

borkjerfkin

->

Riddleton

, 2, Victor interactions

Mathdino

XX

Riddleton

, 1

Mathdino

->

Not_Mafia

, 3, pressure

Mathdino

XX

Not_Mafia

, 2, playing his town meta

Mathdino

->

Riddleton

, 2

Newbie

->

Wisdom

, 3, likes this post by acryon

Newbie

XX

Wisdom

, 2, wgeurts wrote a "solid case" on Mala

Mathdino

XX

Riddleton

, 1

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 2, mason fishing

borkjerfkin

XX

Riddleton

, 0

borkjerfkin

->

Wisdom

, 3, because "1287 is absolute balls"

Mathdino

XX

Constantine

, 1, not feeding the troll

Mathdino

->

Riddleton

, 1

Constantine

XX

acryon

, 0

Constantine

->

Riddleton

, 2, to sheep

Riddleton

XX

Malakittens

, 0

Riddleton

->

Constantine

, 2, "The overreaction coupled with the hardcore defence of me makes me want to reevaluate my townread on him."

Mathdino

XX

Riddleton

, 1

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 3, policy

wgeurts

XX

Not_Mafia

, 1

wgeurts

->

Malakittens

, 1, case

Okay, so here's the thing. We've established that the TTH NK is very WIFOMy. Could be to stop a Wisdom wagon, could be to implicate him, and TTH was probably the best NK for either of these purposes as she was one of few whose read on him was unmanipulatable. But here's the thing. His wagon is tiny. It starts with

Malakittens

, followed by

Newbie

, followed by

Not_Mafia

, followed by

borkjerfkin

.

But that's it.

I won't go so far as to say that Wisdom vs Malakittens is TvS, but I will say that there's no question that either Wisdom is scum, or scum is on his wagon and/or is trying to get towncred from calling him town.

Riddleton

hasn't spoken on Wisdom.

Constantine

blind defended him.

wgeurts

is flip flopping but naturally.

acryon

called him town but is barely defending him at all.

Constantine

is the only one that's really implicated here but [hope]we're lynching him anyway[/hope].

Of course, Wisdom as scum could probably push a TTH lynch fairly well, so that seems weird.

Edit: Goddammit. Got distracted for a few hours, came back, and realised how silly this all is. Not deleting because it has the VC stuff and this analysis is the whole reason I did the VC.
The main point that's not total WIFOM is Newbie, Constantine, and to a lesser extent borkjerfkin are acting really weird about Wisdom.
Also I approve of the above post.

Remaining players are Mala, bork, NM, Constantine, Riddleton, Newbie, acryon, wgeurts, BMWS, and myself. I cross the masons and myself off the list, I get Constantine, Riddleton, Newbie, acryon, wgeurts, BMWS.

BMWS/Newbie is impossible, seeing as she would've told him what she meant in the scumthread.
acryon/Riddleton I'm finding unlikely.
Constantine/Riddleton is very unlikely. I should note that his willingness to lynch SilverWolf was obliterated after D1. I won't waste time questioning him about that.
BMWS/Constantine is bad.
wgeurts is a suboptimal choice.

Ugh. This is confusing. I still think Newbie as scum is possible now that Wisdom is scum.

We have 2 mislynches until we hit LyLo. I think the best options for that will be Constantine and Riddleton. If one of them flips scum, we can reevaluate. That said, if one of them does and BMWS isn't really a good option, I think I'm gonna have to go with Constantine/acryon and Riddleton/Newbie.

If they both flip town, we're gonna have a bad time. It'll be left to me, Newbie, wgeurts, acryon, and BMWS, in which case I'd be considering Newbie/acryon as the highest one.

None of this makes sense if Wisdom is town. I really hope he's lying here.

Wisdom, thoughts if you're still there?

[Mathdino]

I don't know why I quoted that.

[Mathdino]

Crossed fingers on Constantine then. G'night.

WGEURTS YOU DISAPPEARED

[Mathdino]

Finally. So I did this right before the mod locked the thread, coloured it afterwards. Will analyse based on NK flip in a sec.

Spoiler: VC IIoA

Structure:
[Voter] -> [Votee], [number of votes on Votee], [stated reason if any (I'll put a link if there's a bunch of reasoning)]
[Unvoter] XX [Unvotee], [number of votes on Unvotee], [stated reason if any]

acryon

->

Victor

, 1, RV (later says vote stands due to Victor's questioning/defending)

Mathdino

->

SilverWolf

, 1, RV

Victor

->

Mathdino

, 1, RV

BMWS

->

TTH

, 1, RV

Wisdom

->

NM

, 1, RV

SilverWolf

->

Mathdino

, 2, RV/jokingly OMGUS

Malakittens

->

Wisdom

, 1, RV

Wisdom

XX

NM

, 0

Wisdom

->

Mathdino

, 3, "I like wagons"

wgeurts

->

Wisdom

, 2, "this is not sitting well with me"

wgeurts

XX

Wisdom

, 1, "it's all a reaction test"/"there's nothing to gain here"

Victor

XX

Mathdino

, 2

Victor

->

wgeurts

, 1, no stated reason

Mathdino

XX

SilverWolf

, 0

Mathdino

->

Victor

, 2, asking suspicious questions

TTH

->

Wisdom

, 2, "Not_Mafia and Wisdom have both telegraphed scumreads on Victor, but they seem a lot more guarded about it"

SilverWolf

XX

Mathdino

, 1

SilverWolf

->

Victor

, 3, "making way too much of a simple question as though you are looking for a reason to suspect someone"

Malakittens

XX

Wisdom

, 1

Malakittens

->

acryon

, 1, "I don't like Acyron injecting here"/forced looking posts

Newbie

->

wgeurts

, 2, reaction testing and general sketchiness

wgeurts

->

Newbie

, 1, "her vote was very opportunistic and he hasn't scum hunted"

Mathdino

XX

Victor

, 2

Mathdino

->

wgeurts

, 3, mason fishing

BMWS

XX

TTH

, 0

BMWS

->

wgeurts

, 4, "to add pressure on you so that you'll create a good defense to Mathdino's accusations"

wgeurts

XX

Newbie

wgeurts

->

wgeurts

, 5, "I'm town and I'd rather die quickly and give you info"

wgeurts

XX

wgeurts

, 4, "As requested"

Wisdom

XX

Mathdino

, 0

Wisdom

->

wgeurts

, 5, "I don't like this quick recovery"

wgeurts

->

Wisdom

, 2, =24679#p6313218]Here's the votepost and here's his case later on

SilverWolf

XX

Victor

, 1

SilverWolf

->

Wisdom

, 3, "You remind me of scum trying to push the easiest mislynch"

Newbie

XX

wgeurts

, 4

Newbie

->

Wisdom

, 4, "I actually agree with the case [wgeurts] made against you"

Mathdino

XX

wgeurts

, 3

Mathdino

->

SilverWolf

, 1, Here's the context but just read my case if you wanna know

Mathdino

XX

SilverWolf

, 0

Mathdino

->

wgeurts

, 4, SilverWolf descended to 2nd on my scumlist

acryon

XX

Victor

, 0

acryon

->

SilverWolf

, 1, Here's his case and here's another

Mathdino

XX

wgeurts

, 3

Mathdino

->

SilverWolf

, 2, I didn't like her reaction to me/Wisdom/acryon

Malakittens

XX

acryon

, 0, "I do like Acyron's latest posts so .... yeah..."

Constantine

->

Victor

, 1, no stated reason

Mathdino

XX

SilverWolf/Riddleton

, 1, she was getting replaced

Constantine

XX

Victor

, 0, no stated reason

NM

->

Victor

, 1, no stated reason

Constantine

->

Mathdino

, 1, thinks I'm scum with Victor

BMWS

XX

wgeurts

, 2

BMWS

->

Constantine

, 1 "I don't like you, Constantine

Wisdom

XX

wgeurts

, 1

Wisdom

->

Malakittens

, 1, "I'm not happy with her play. She needs to do more, starting with explaining her reads."

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 2, pointing out associations

Constantine

XX

Mathdino

, 0, "Emotion is a town tell"

Constantine

->

Victor

, 2, no stated reason

TTH

XX

Wisdom

, 3, confusion

wgeurts

XX

Wisdom

, 2

wgeurts

->

Constantine

, 3, "for all these comtradictions"

TTH

->

Victor

, 3, PoE and looking through ISO

TTH

XX

Victor

, 2, "I'm having a reference frame crisis."

Newbie

XX

Wisdom

, 1, let's not talk about this

Riddleton

XX

Wisdom

, 0

Riddleton

->

Victor

, 3, muddafuckin' case

TTH

->

Victor

, 4, here ya go

Wisdom

XX

Malakittens

, 0

Wisdom

->

Constantine

, 4, "bullshit about scumtells"

acryon

XX

Riddleton

, 0

acryon

->

Constantine

, 5, mini case

Mathdino

XX

Constantine

, 4

Mathdino

->

Riddleton

, 1, "more likely lynch"

Newbie

->

Victor

, 5, reasons above

Wisdom

XX

Constantine

, 3

Wisdom

->

Riddleton

, 2, probably same as me

wgeurts

XX

Constantine

, 2

wgeurts

->

Victor

, 6, no stated reason

Mathdino

XX

Riddleton

, 1

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 3, "Riddleton's last post is convincing enough"

Wisdom

XX

Riddleton

, 0

Wisdom

->

Constantine

, 4, presumably to get a lynch

Malakittens

->

Victor

, 7, HAMMERTIME

Day's long enough that I don't want to have to do this again in full by twilight. This time this'll actually have a point, though.

Spoiler: VCI&A

Malakittens

->

Wisdom

, 1, not going to try to explain this

Riddleton

->

Malakittens

, 1, unknown

Constantine

->

acryon

, 1, unknown (-_-)

Constantine

XX

acryon

, 0

Constantine

->

Mathdino

, 1, disagreement on RVS tells

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 1, reasons already explained + bad lynching strategies

Newbie

->

Wisdom

, 1, presumably D1 reasons + flip

Mathdino

XX

Constantine

, 0

Mathdino

->

Riddleton

, 1, case

Wisdom

->

Malakittens

, 2, case

Not_Mafia

->

Wisdom

, 2, unknown

Newbie

XX

Wisdom

, 2, "I want to see what acryon has to say"

Constantine

XX

Mathdino

, 0

Constantine

->

acryon

, 1, unknown (-__-)

Wisdom

XX

Malakittens

, 1

Wisdom

->

Not_Mafia

, 1, not answering questions

wgeurts

->

Not_Mafia

, 2, ditto

acryon

->

Constantine

, 1, case + D1 reasons

borkjerfkin

->

Constantine

, 2, not answering questions or explaining arguments

borkjerfkin

XX

Constantine

, 1

borkjerfkin

->

Riddleton

, 2, Victor interactions

Mathdino

XX

Riddleton

, 1

Mathdino

->

Not_Mafia

, 3, pressure

Mathdino

XX

Not_Mafia

, 2, playing his town meta

Mathdino

->

Riddleton

, 2

Newbie

->

Wisdom

, 3, likes this post by acryon

Newbie

XX

Wisdom

, 2, wgeurts wrote a "solid case" on Mala

Mathdino

XX

Riddleton

, 1

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 2, mason fishing

borkjerfkin

XX

Riddleton

, 0

borkjerfkin

->

Wisdom

, 3, because "1287 is absolute balls"

Mathdino

XX

Constantine

, 1, not feeding the troll

Mathdino

->

Riddleton

, 1

Constantine

XX

acryon

, 0

Constantine

->

Riddleton

, 2, to sheep

Riddleton

XX

Malakittens

, 0

Riddleton

->

Constantine

, 2, "The overreaction coupled with the hardcore defence of me makes me want to reevaluate my townread on him."

Mathdino

XX

Riddleton

, 1

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 3, policy

wgeurts

XX

Not_Mafia

, 1

wgeurts

->

Malakittens

, 1, case

Okay, so here's the thing. We've established that the TTH NK is very WIFOMy. Could be to stop a Wisdom wagon, could be to implicate him, and TTH was probably the best NK for either of these purposes as she was one of few whose read on him was unmanipulatable. But here's the thing. His wagon is tiny. It starts with

Malakittens

, followed by

Newbie

, followed by

Not_Mafia

, followed by

borkjerfkin

.

But that's it.

I won't go so far as to say that Wisdom vs Malakittens is TvS, but I will say that there's no question that either Wisdom is scum, or scum is on his wagon and/or is trying to get towncred from calling him town.

Riddleton

hasn't spoken on Wisdom.

Constantine

blind defended him.

wgeurts

is flip flopping but naturally.

acryon

called him town but is barely defending him at all.

Constantine

is the only one that's really implicated here but [hope]we're lynching him anyway[/hope].

Of course, Wisdom as scum could probably push a TTH lynch fairly well, so that seems weird.

Edit: Goddammit. Got distracted for a few hours, came back, and realised how silly this all is. Not deleting because it has the VC stuff and this analysis is the whole reason I did the VC.
The main point that's not total WIFOM is Newbie, Constantine, and to a lesser extent borkjerfkin are acting really weird about Wisdom.
Also I approve of the above post.

Right, so here's the thing with that last point on BMWS (him just asking scumbuddy wtf TTH, Newbie, and Wisdom were talking about). It only works if we're looking at BMWS with a reasonably intuitive partner who saw what was happening.

BMWS/Newbie impossible, BMWS/acryon unlikely. Riddle was on V/LA at the time and Constantine is Constantine. So it doesn't really rule him out here.

This game looks like it'll end up as a choice between acryon and BMWS tbh.

[Mathdino]

Sorry for spamposting but why the hell do I keep doing that...

Masons, I expect a verdict tomorrow on the gamestate.

@Mod: Could you freeze the night deadline to give NM's replacement time to catch up?

[Mathdino]

acryon, can you look over my thoughts on Constantine, Riddleton, BMWS, and Newbie, assuming Wisdom is town? In essence:

- Constantine seems most likely scum.
- If it's Riddleton, partner is prob Newbie.
- BMWS cannot have had Newbie as a partner as she would've explained what happened.
- Gonna need input on Constantine/BMWS and Riddleton/BMWS.

[Mathdino]

Also I want to note that if Wisdom flips scum, anything and everything he says after he was first put at L-1 today should be disregarded and ignored as a huge bag of WIFOM. He knew he was getting lynched for a long time, could be why he hasn't provided extremely in depth thoughts.

If he flips town, well, I think we got all the info we're gonna be getting out of him anyway.

[Mathdino]

There's so much disarray as you guys argue and argue and argue!!! You out Mala, you out NM, you out bork, you out everyone because everyone is arguing and arguing!!!! Whoddya wanna lynch? "The hammerer?" replies Wisdom. Whoddya wanna lynch? "I dunno" replies Wisdom. Whoddya wanna lynch? "Oh let's just lynch the troll and chill". Wisdom is not being helpful. Wisdom's ideas are terrible. Wisdom has been sucking all the logic out of this game. But is he just apathetic, or has he really been trying to be a little Debbie Downer...

There's more than one way to manipulate a game. Yes my ancestor was the first Debbie Downer. No I mean that was her name. Debbie Downer. She was on the Titanic and town lost because she was trolling the Masons to tears. And so they literally dayvigged her on purpose to get her to shut up. That's my legacy!""

Wisdom begins laughing maniacally. He laughs so hard he passes out and bangs his head on wgeurts's hammer in the process. Well it could've been worse. He's taken off the game and dropped off at the dead thread to receive medical attention.

@mod: FTFY

[Mathdino]

Alright folks, let's go for a perfect victory. I say we lynch Riddleton.

If anyone doesn't want to lynch Riddleton, take it up with me.

Here are the remaining players:
Mala - town mason
bork - town mason
BMWS - conftown because he shouldn't have been so confused at TTH's interaction with Wisdom if he could've asked him in the PT
Newbie - conftown because she unvoted Wisdom thinking he was a mason
wgeurts - conftown as the counterwagon to Wisdom and also interactions with Victor and wgeurts
Leaving me, acryon, Riddleton, and Constantine.

Read my case on SilverWolf. I even made one for why SilverWolf is implicated if Wisdom flips scum, if you'll recall. Riddleton and Constantine were the only ones that were really steadfast against Wisdom's lynch, but while Wisdom used Constantine as a counterwagon to Victor, he tried to argue against PLing Riddleton yesterday.

Riddleton is the answer. If not, then Constantine. If not, then me. And then when I flip town, lynch acryon and win. And if that doesn't work, lynch wgeurts and win.

Again, if anyone still thinks we should lynch Constantine, take it up with me. I'd be happy to explain more of my thought process here but I'd prefer speedlynching Riddle.

[Mathdino]

Borkjerfkin, what's the masons' verdict? Did Cheetory have any insights?

[Mathdino]

Oh, yeah, and

SUCK IT, CONSTANTINE.

[Mathdino]

ty acryon so helpful
town mvp
let's lynch the remaining

one

TWO scum

Jk. But seriously, I kind of started today expecting you'd go for a speedlynch on Constantine and I just wouldn't reocmmend that.

BMWS cannot have been partners with Wisdom or Newbie because he was all confused about what happened when TTH thought Wisdom was a mason. If he was scum with either Wisdom or Newbie, he would've just asked in the scum thread.

[Mathdino]

Also I will eat anyone who tries to use ANYTHING Wisdom said after the mason shitstorm started as evidence for anything. He knew he was on his deathbed, all that was probably WIFOM.

Edit: Good, we're in agreement. That's me, Mala, and bork for Riddleton, just need acryon to jump on board and we win.

VOTE: Riddleton

[Mathdino]

Just ignore everything Riddleton and Constantine say and we're good. Alright, lemme write you up a case on Riddleton. I really do want a perfect town victory, I've never survived to one of those.

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: Because I'm a Lazy Mofo

Sorry for double post, but I don't think this is Catch 22. It's the pitfall of using AtE in games with (I presume) more logical players. wgeurts lost credibility the moment he self-voted, as does anyone outside of RVS (and some would say inside), so in this case I'm gonna have to defer to Wisdom's reasoning here: frustrated town is usually too frustrated to just go ahead and listen to everyone.

Also, awkward moment when we're all still tunneling wgeurts.

FinnLaw

, you probably didn't notice because I put it in the middle of a line, but I asked what your other reads were, if any.
The problem this game is I've got 4 suspects that I've created (Victor, wgeurts, TTH, Wisdom), but I'm really finding it difficult to even see more than 1 scum in there; I think if I had to pick, it'd be wgeurts-TTH, but even that seems a bit off to me. So let's go PoE.

I'm very much getting a townread on

Mala's

one liner reactions to everything.

blindmewithscience

I'm getting a townread on, he seems like he actaully wants to help and I feel like I'd notice from his first few posts if he was scum (he's very much new to forum mafia, and like I said, I know the guy).
Hmm,

acryon

. I'm a bit biased, because answering questions for other people was one of my problems as town early on. It's not helpful to interrogators but I do see it as trying to help with discussion. Townread on him.

Victor

is town due to the latter half of his ISO. I do hope he posts more results of his questioning though, otherwise I'm still gonna see how he acted in the first few pages as just throwing out suspicions.

Wisdom's

votepost was pretty much the main thing that made me suspect him. I can't see a Wisdom-wgeurts scumteam at all at the moment, so I'll reserve judgment on him until tomorrow. Town for now.

That leaves FinnLaw, TTH, NM, Silver, and Undertaker.

Undertaker

I'm obviously throwing out for now. Did an ISO on

NM

and I realised there's really not as much to discuss as I thought (still not sure what TTH is smoking).

Finn's

whole Catch 22 thing

kinda

leans town, but it also seems like it could be an AtE in defence of a scum-wgeurts (as in "we're being unfair to this guy, give him a chance"). There's also how he responded to wgeurts self-voting. I can see a Finn-wgeurts team. Lean null-scum for now.

TTH

I've already stated my thoughts on. Can't get a friggin read due to her playstyle. She's my only non-lurking nullread.

If you skimmed this post, this is the part where you start reading.

Which leaves us at

SilverWolf

, who I actually ISO'd 2nd or 3rd in order to put her in the townreads list. See, when I ISO people, I mostly look out for anything that was their original reasoning, anything they created. But then I noticed there was basically none in her ISO. Seriously, take a look at it. I'll be here when you get back. Or you could keep Silver's ISO on another tab while you read the below, since I don't expect you to click a dozen links.

Alright. 35 repeats what I said about reaction testing. 84 is literally "I agree". 85 and 86 are suspicion and a vote for Victor, I don't think I have to explain how this isn't new. 95 is literally repeating my (and possibly other's) reasoning for voting Victor. 121 is jumping on Mala's "Stop butting in, acryon, sheesh" train of thought. 135, repetition of wgeurts reasoning for voting Newbie. 207 is fencesitting on the me vs wgeurts issue. Free pass on 238 since I literally asked for her thoughts on Wisdom and NM. And finally, 257 (unvote yourself, wgeurts) was already said by Finn.

I spent most of the game under the impression Silver was being helpful and contributing, but there have been 0 no lines of reasoning in the ENTIRETY of the ISO. I think Silver is playing it safe, blending in. And with that I have my new 2nd highest suspect.

FoS: SilverWolf

. Someone let me know if I'm crazy on this by the way, that took a long time to do. Also open to defence on Silver's part, but honestly, more contribution from her will do more than responding to this post.

Edit: I like Victor's above post.

Spoiler: Only Directed To Newbie

I disagree on wgeurts but I can see where you're coming from, thanks. I do agree that it's very much doubtful they're both scum. I should point out though that focusing on one thing/person at a time is basically tunneling, which pretty much gets us nowhere and blinds us to other possible suspects. After all, there are 3 scum, and there's always the chance neither wgeurts nor Wisdom is one of them.

I'll take you at your word for now because I still think you're town and I still think Wisdom's town, haha. The bussing suspicion was derived entirely from the post you linked to; the fact that you're at risk if you mislynch really just doesn't need to be said, since that's true of pretty much everyone. If Wisdom flips town, I'll still think you're town. You should know that people bus a LOT nowadays, and a lot of the time scum like to stay off town wagons precisely so they're not blamed for it. It's all very WIFOMy and kinda pointless to discuss before D2. Honestly Newbie, I think your issue might be basing too much off of interactions and preconceived notions (Wisdom is scum, therefore the people voting him are town, etc). Scum behaviour is scum behaviour.

But hey, let's compromise

(this goes to everyone voting Wisdom)

. I think Wisdom is town and Silver is scummy independent of him. But I'm going to assume Wisdom is scum and try to take an objective view of this.

Open up this ISO of the two of them. I find it notable that they have ZERO interaction up until isolattion #42, where I had to literally ask Silver what she thought of Wisdom. Spoiler: She approves of him. Hell, even Wisdom is troubled by this (isolation #63). Note that I've pretty much been townreading Wisdom the whole game; if he's scum, he's only pointing out Silver because a wagon could easily form against her from my case while keeping me as a buddy.

So why then, does Silver decide to vote Wisdom instead of the dude who made a crap case against her? Answer: She recognises that Wisdom is bussing her and goes along with it because A. Wisdom is more likely than me to get lynched, and B. She wants towncred for going after scum (she got it from you, Newbie). Now, you may say that Silver just found Wisdom scummier, but everything that was said about Wisdom applies to me as well. Read the post. She didn't mention his votepost like everyone else did.

Not many other singular posts apply, I highly recommend just reading the ISO yourself and coming to a conclusion. How me-who-thinks-Wisdom-is-scum interprets it: Wisdom and Silver don't interact AT ALL until my case on Silver, which suddenly makes them start distancing each other to hell. Silver actually starts ignoring me and tunnels Wisdom for a page. They're banking on one of them getting lynched and the other getting MASSIVE towncred for it due to their bickering.

And yes, this is absolutely a 'damned if you do damned if you don't'. Silver is scummy enough IMO to transcend Wisdom's flip; if Wisdom flips scum, it points to Silver, and if he flips town, it negates your entire reason for a townread on her.

So let us come together, wgeurts-tunnelers, and Wisdom-tunnelers, lurkers and spammers, one-liner-ers and wallposters, let us come together to banish the wolf of silver hide from this town. /endrant
I'm welcome to reasonable critique of the above case, since I AM trying to put myself in a mindset that I wouldn't normally. However, I'd appreciate if you didn't discount it simply because of that.

Not enough to save him from his predecessor, no, and I'm also seeing some merit in the point with Riddleton defending Const.
The scumslip was if anything the straw that broke the camel's back. Eh, more like the 2 kg weight, but whatever.

Regardless, it's the best chance we have of a lynch hitting scum, IMO. I like to temporarily give the benefit of the doubt to replacements, but BMWS, lemme ask you:

Given all that we suspected SilverWolf for, has Riddleton

redeemed

his slot sufficiently to warrant not voting him this close to the deadline?

If the answer is no, I'd recommend switching your vote in the next 24 hours.

Here's where the meat of our Victor analysis is going to be.

Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?

Hey Math, why so keen to get some early meta off Newbie?

I'm not sure what the problem is. I would think getting meta would be sharing useful information. I intend to look at meta of the players here. So even though you said you wanted to know why mathdino wanted that particular info. I guess I fail to see the problem with this and your explanation really didn't help me much. You are making way too much of a simple question as though you are looking for a reason to suspect someone. It's possible you just want to question Mathdino like you said, but this seems an odd thing to question him about. This is something else I am taking note of. FoS VictorDeAngelo

So do a lot of players, but I was wondering why he was looking to get meta off that player so early on. Often people looking for meta in the first few pages would have a particular reason, and I wanted to know his.

Mala looks pretty damn townie off her opening posts. I think I should be able to metaread you fairly well now, so I last long enough I will see if your scum.

Does not read as distancing, reads more like trying to appeal to Mala to keep Victor around.

I don't like Wguerts 105. This post doesn't fit the play at all.

As said, not bussing. 0 interaction with wgeurts.

Nor do I like Wisdom's 108 - particularly since he accused me of reaching and asking loaded questions earlier.

I like both the vote and point from Newbie in 124.

Awful rvs in 127.

@TTH are you really implying in 130 it's a waste time asking for reasoning because if a player is scum they will simply lie or have I misread that?

132 & 134 (this should really be one post anyhow ) Asks to meta read to help players understand his style and then tells everyone to ignore Newbie's meta because "the fact he's provided it probaly means he's aware of it and able to manipulate it."

If Wguerts is scum I can see Silverwolf being scum with him for 135.

Aha, okay. In one of his games he did exactly this. "If [townplayer] is scum, I can see [my scumbuddy] being scum with him." Not making me feel more comfortable about Riddleton.

Is the reason this game is so many pages because wgeurts is multiposting. Actually wgeuers and Newbie. Any chance we can keep it to one post at a time folks?

Blindmewithscience is sitting back too much with this post. Especially considering it's his only one outside of rvs.

Not bussing.

I still like my vote on Wguerts, but I really wish I had a second one for blindmewithscience. Not too sure on anyone else right now. A few players on the list need to show still so we'll see.

And like that - I am gone.

@Everyone

: Who would you want to lynch if not wgeurts or Wisdom? What are your thoughts on SilverWolf? (free pass on sheeping the above case; I think I kinda exhausted everything that can be said about her)

I can see Silverwolf as scum if Wgeurtes flips scum. But I'd rather lynch Wguertes first.

Red flag again; "I can see [scumbuddy] as scum if [townperson] is scum."

301 - Furthermore if Wisdom is town, I'm can see Silverwolf being scum after reading this.

Ooh, didn't catch this at first. Might have to rethink my read on Wisdom. However, I think it's notable that Victor rarely includes both his scumbuddies in the same sentence. I don't quite know what to make of this yet.

302 - Sure newbscum would do this. Particular since the scum don't have daychat so Wgeuertes has not had any opportunity to talk with his scumbuddies yet.

Yeeeeep wgeurts is town.

310 - Ok, I can totally see blindmewithscience as scum with Wgeurtes after this post. If Wgeurtes flips scum then he should be tomorrows flip. And if it is Wguetes + blindmewithscience then it's probably means it's not Silverwolf based on the second half of this post.

This seems to be what Mala caught. I think it's notable that he pointed out Silver/wgeurts first, however, and followed up with BMWS/wgeurts. Honestly, I'm more inclined to think of the first as deliberate linking and the latter as an afterthought. Not changing my read on BMWS.

325 - So you now want to wait and see more from Wgeurtes before making a decsion, but you were happily on his wagon a couple of days ago. I also don't like the way he's trying to band people together.

354 - Calling 262 coaching from Mala is a massive stretch. In fact I've spotted a few spots where I think there might be coaching but this is not one of them. Also roles that benefit from being lynched are called Jesters. You'll note there's none in this game if you checked the setup.

That said, I also don't like how Mala has fallen into the background. The last few posts have a distinct feel of holding back.

Sucks up to Mala and then mudslings her. Mala's town.

@Reinoe

- Any news on the Undertaker's replacement yet?

SilverWolf:

Jingle's advice to playing scum, which Silver reposted in her mafia QT. Notable parts:
"When in doubt, just wait until somebody else posts, and analyze what they said. Basically, try as hard as you can *not* to be the one sticking out of the crowd, especially *right* when people are looking for someone to scumhunt for."
"When in doubt, just wait until somebody else posts, and analyze what they said. Basically, try as hard as you can *not* to be the one sticking out of the crowd, especially *right* when people are looking for someone to scumhunt for."

OH GOD. JUST FOUND SOMETHING HUGE:

Third, if someone (me or otherwise) attacks you for something, don't waste your time being defensive.

Just politely explain why they're wrong (once, and *clearly*), and move on to what's important: looking for *actual* scum

. The reason for this is simple: Scum subconsciously focus on their own guilt, and feel they have to defend themselves; town know they are innocent and don't put much stock in others accusations. This is why overdefensiveness is a pretty reliable scum tell in newbie games.

One of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, both for this unwarranted WKing of wgeurts and for jumping on the easy wagon with rehashed reasoning. I don't think they both are, seeing as they voted together in a short time using the same reasoning.

Actually, my reasoning is pretty solid and I'm sticking with it for now. I am not really caring for the sheeping comments from mathdino or the comments from you either so if you guys get me lynched, I'll flip town, and be out of the game and then you guys can go back to leaving the new players alone-newbie, wegeurts, myself and

actually go after real scum

, unless of course one or both of you is scum doing this in which case, it would make sense.

It gets worse:

Fourth: This is a tricky one, and you'll have to feel it for yourself the balance for how closely you want to follow it: Follow other players' leads (including mine), but don't make it obvious that that's what you're doing. Try not to vote for the same person as someone else *because of the same reasons*; find your own reasons if you can. There are exceptions to this rule, such as when there's not much else to nitpick about them, or when the reason is so amazingly bad that you can't *not* vote them for it. For instance, last game I won as scum, there was a guy who quick-hammered *two* townies before they could claim. It was a no-brainer to vote him. And *not* voting for somebody that scummy is also bad. So like I said, you'll have to feel this one out for yourself.

If it weren't for replacing out, this would be enough to confirm SilverWolf as scum to me. If she's scum, then she's purposefully making her behaviour toward Victor unreadable, so I won't focus much on that. She townreaded and then nullreaded her scumpartner in her scumgame, but Victor acted a lot scummier this game.

Riddleton:

Here is one of his scumgames he replaced into. His partners are Anatole and chaoslord. He starts off distancing his partner but then voting another 'scumread'. His first signature case was on acryon, but a lot of that is because of Riddleton's (also signature) hatred for NKA. His first post with both his scumpartners referenced. Scumreads one of them, sorta townreads the other. Then he outright makes a case against both his scumpartners and proceeds to powerbus the 2 of them, saying they're scumpartners, and flipping back and forth between voting them but being adamant that one of them gets lynched.

Just like NKA, I won't use meta as a justification for a read, but rather to look at consistencies. In this case? Riddleton's behaviour is not in any way inconsistent with his scum meta, and in his scumgame, the majority of his cases were against his scumpartners.

Also, I just realised: His 'scumslip' that I pointed out earlier? Well, it ONLY works if Victor is town. Since Victor flipped scum, it confirms that Riddleton just made a normal mistake there.
So why is Riddleton so hung up on it? Answer: He's advocating for a PL of himself because he knows that'll never happen, and it gives him towncred to talk about his own lynch.

Riddleton's behaviour makes it unlikely to me that he's scum with Constantine. I still don't enjoy having Constantine in the game, but I think in light of the above, I'm willing to switch my vote.

UNVOTE: Constantine
VOTE: Riddleton

[Mathdino]

GODDAMMIT SPOILER TAGS

Edit: Actually, I did a bit of ISOing last night and I came to the conclusion it was Riddleton based on Wisdom's behaviour.

[Mathdino]

You made the right move. Like I was saying while flailing in twilight, the game makes 0 sense if Wisdom is town, given your outing.

[Mathdino]

*raises hand*
I thought I knew the mason team and I was right

[Mathdino]

Mafia prob didn't want a new voice in the game, just in case. NM's slot was unpredictable. Unpredictability is bad.

[Mathdino]

Open up this ISO of the two of them. I find it notable that they have ZERO interaction up until isolattion #42, where I had to literally ask Silver what she thought of Wisdom. Spoiler: She approves of him. Hell, even Wisdom is troubled by this (isolation #63). Note that I've pretty much been townreading Wisdom the whole game; if he's scum, he's only pointing out Silver because a wagon could easily form against her from my case while keeping me as a buddy.

So why then, does Silver decide to vote Wisdom instead of the dude who made a crap case against her? Answer: She recognises that Wisdom is bussing her and goes along with it because A. Wisdom is more likely than me to get lynched, and B. She wants towncred for going after scum (she got it from you, Newbie). Now, you may say that Silver just found Wisdom scummier, but everything that was said about Wisdom applies to me as well. Read the post. She didn't mention his votepost like everyone else did.

Not many other singular posts apply, I highly recommend just reading the ISO yourself and coming to a conclusion. How me-who-thinks-Wisdom-is-scum interprets it: Wisdom and Silver don't interact AT ALL until my case on Silver, which suddenly makes them start distancing each other to hell. Silver actually starts ignoring me and tunnels Wisdom for a page. They're banking on one of them getting lynched and the other getting MASSIVE towncred for it due to their bickering.

And yes, this is absolutely a 'damned if you do damned if you don't'. Silver is scummy enough IMO to transcend Wisdom's flip; if Wisdom flips scum, it points to Silver, and if he flips town, it negates your entire reason for a townread on her.

^This is probably the most important of my past cases right now. I already analysed their earlier interaction. Wisdom-scumflip points straight to SW.

Edit: If Constantine and Riddleton are both not town, I'll self vote and leave LyLo up to wgeurts, Newbie, BMWS, and acryon, minus whoever dies. Nothing is really confirming me as town right now and I don't think I should be alive at LyLo.

[Mathdino]

I do want to hear from Constantine / Riddleton - at least one of them is town.

With luck, Riddleton will still be advocating for his own policy lynch. If he's not, then we need to speedlynch him because he's a liar and we have room for mislynches.

I don't really want to hear much from Constantine other than "I was wrong" and "Argumem de obicular doesn't exist".

[Mathdino]

The fact that part of my scumhunting was active masonhunting and that I'm partially responsible for the masons claiming means that if I'm alive with 2 of wgeurts, Newbie, and BMWS, I'm probably going to die. And die alone and confused, at that, because I'll eat my hat if they're not all town.

I pretty much have Newbie's exact reads.

Let's hammer and win the game.

[Mathdino]

Meh. Just give your thoughts to Mala in the mason thread if we're wrong and you die tonight.

Hey wgeurts, hammer if you're so sure Constantine's town.

Edit: mehhhhh
We pretty much autowin. Someone wants to come up with a reason that Riddleton's not the remaining scum, I'm all ears.

[Mathdino]

Wouldn't it be kind of a dumbass move to bus your partner D2 and try to solo the game 1v8, especially when you're pretty much in the lynchpool due to 6 confirmed townies when your partner flips? The correct move there was to not bus. Like what Constantine and Riddleton did.

Also, I defended Wisdom all game and changed my mind when you spilled it. So did Newbie.

Edit: Eh, there's a good point to be made about Constantine hard-defending Wisdom all game even though he keeps going on about lynching off the wagon of Victor. Plus he was using being right about Victor to justify lynches on 2 very active players.

[Mathdino]

I'd have killed Mala, actually. Jussayin.

[Mathdino]

Oh wait never mind Riddleton was at L-2. Now L-1. One more to win.

@Bork: Alright, fair enough. We'll go over acryon vs Constantine tomorrow if we don't win, methinks.

[Mathdino]

But...

That would mean Constantine would be wrong...

What are you saying, acryon!?

VOTE: acryon
UNVOTE: acryon
VOTE: Riddleton

[Mathdino]

You know, considering you're the third person (Riddle, Math, you) to advocate a pre-lylo lynch of yourselves:

This is not how town wins games. Town wins games by getting other townies to

not

lynch them. Just scumhunt and be town if you're town and trust the other town to pick up on that.

I mean, geez. I have literally never once told town 'lynch me on day X because of paranoia' when I'm town. I've done it as scum.

I'm partially saying that to prove how sure I am of Constantine/Riddleton, and also to allay any suspicions that I might be scum just lining up lynches of Const, Riddle, and acryon. Kind of an in-game bet, if you will.

I honestly don't really care how many mislynches we get after this one as long as we have a confirmed townie in LyLo. Right now I'm trying to rush a perfect town victory (kinda wanna get this game over with to put in my meta and start a new one). I understand if you're a bit put off by that, haha.

Edit: mehhhhh

[Mathdino]

SilverWolf also didn't interact with Wisdom at all until I wrote up a case and

forced everyone else to comment

(that's why I canvas, guys). Wisdom then commented and SW went batshit on Wisdom while completely ignoring me until BMWS and I were like "uh, wtf man".

Edit: Completely agree on BMWS. His slot's been reading town all game, none of his actions make sense under scum standpoint, and I still think his asking questions about TTH and Newbie confirms him 99%.

[Mathdino]

I'm definitely leaning town on bork, but I'm not willing to bet on it.

Eh, honestly, I'd put bork in the town category. What I'm really not sure about is Mala...

Guys, do you think Newbie might be scum!?

[Mathdino]

So this is basically 3 guys dicking around until BMWS or Mala steps in to hammer, or until Constantine steps in and derails the whole thread.

acryon, dude, for a sec I thought your avatar said "People SHOULD be deleted" and I was like "MIKAMI CONFIRMED TOWN FOR LYNCHING L"

[Mathdino]

Loud and clear, bork.

And I can understand being hesitant to end the game since you seem to really think you're gonna die tonight if we're wrong. Like I said, just give Mala a bunch of last words and have her sheep you for tomorrow.

[Mathdino]

you gotta be kidding me

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Constantine

Constantine, then acryon, then probably wgeurts.

[Mathdino]

wgeurts, you sound oddly sure of yourself here.

Please explain. Cuz acryon wrote a pretty damn convincing case.

[Mathdino]

Uhh... so? Ya got the evidence but I don't see how it points to Constantine-town. He used Victor's lynch to justify a lynch on me and acryon.
He WK'd Wisdom all game.
As acryon's case pointed out, he clearly knows better than how he's played this game.
But just to look over this stuff, I'll go ahead and unvote until we get the mason verdict and more discussion.

[Mathdino]

I forgot to unvote.
UNVOTE:
lol

[Mathdino]

borkjerfkin, I'm going to leave it up to you to write a Newbie towncase. If someone votes her in LyLo we're screwed. Alternatively, we could all just agree that a Newbie vote is a scumclaim, but I need you to go back through Newbie's ISO and make sure that she's town outside of her Wisdom interaction.

acryon, BMWS, it's one of us 3. And assuming bork or Newbie dies in LyLo, it's going to be me against one of you if we don't catch scum today. acryon, please go over Victor/Wisdom/me, and Victor/Wisdom/BMWS, and tell me what you find. If you're town, do it without confbias, please.

BMWS, uh, do whatever it is you do.

[Mathdino]

Uh, no. Newbie is pretty much definitely town. If you're town, your job is to decide between me and acryon. I'm leaving bork to Newbie because he has far less information than each of us do.

[Mathdino]

Everyone knows bork is town.
Everyone knows Newbie is almost definitely town.
Yet I'm the only one who knows I'm town, and the same applies to one of you or acryon.

In essence, the 3 of us only have to look at 2 other players, while bork and Newbie have to go over 3.

[Mathdino]

BMWS's first mention of Victor and Wisdom. Pretty much just summarises actions so far, pretty null. Wisdom asks if BMWS has his own thoughts on this. Could be taken as coaching, but otherwise not overly interesting. Victor responds saying he's "holding back too much" in that post and says he wishes he had another vote, but otherwise doesn't cast much other suspicion. Notable that he did the same to wgeurts (his vote) and Wisdom.

BMWS's 241 is a pretty damn townish response to Victor asking him about wgeurts, doesn't seem like someone being interrogated by a scumpartner. Then in 310 BMWS states growing suspicion on both SilverWolf and Wisdom after they argue. Wisdom responds in 319 taunting BMWS to jump on his wagon. Discrepancy with how he acted toward Victor; note that Wisdom also taunted wgeurts earlygame.

The "two sides to this town" post summarises how the game basically became me/Wisdom/Victor vs Finn/Silver/Newbie/TTH/Mala/wgeurts/NM, and discusses how he'd consider himself more a part of the former group. See, while I can see scum voting with their teammates, I don't think it'd make any sense to do it so explicitly, seeing as it'd essentially lead us right to the team. 333 has Wisdom just asking what the point of the recap even was. A lot of Wisdom's questions toward BMWS seem like coaching, interestingly. Wisdom's posting points more toward BMWS/Wisdom than BMWS's does. Can't tell if this was on purpose.

In 356 we have Victor's classic "If [partner] is [alignment], [townsperson] is [alignment]." He did that to Wisdom. However, as we've seen, wgeurts and Silver are both clear, so whether or not this leads to BMWS is questionable. "If Wgeurtes flips scum then [BMWS] should be tomorrows flip". Hm.

BMWS's 387 has a summary of his thoughts on wgeurts and Wisdom, arguing that they're on opposite sides and thus because wgeurts leans scum, Wisdom must be scum. The odd thing about this is if wgeurts ended up actually being the lynch, which was fairly plausible, it'd basically lead straight to Wisdom D2 and then Victor given the already large suspicions on him.

bork, do you think this has any element of scum motivation? I can't tell here.

BMWS elaborates on this in this post. Then he does it again here, repeatedly talking about the arguments against Wisdom being legitimate although wgeurts is still far scummier because ~reasons~.

So later on, Wisdom criticises the Constantine wagon saying he's 'annoying and hypocritical but most likely town'. Clearly true. Note however that this was directly after my and wgeurts's votes on Const.

I believe I went over BMWS's commentary on Victor in a previous post, so skipping that.

bork, did Mala have any more commentary on BMWS's response to her hammer? I think her input would be good here to finish up D1 analysis of him.

D2, BMWS's first content post questions Wisdom and points out that he literally used the phrase "actual scum" that I found in Silver's meta, but goes on to say that he's not seeing Wisdom-scum. His next post, 1594 states a null tell on Wisdom, and then a bit later 1624 questions Constantine as to what exactly makes Wisdom town, refusing to listen to the answer of 'gut'. Funny thing: "I'm remembering him saying that he caught Mala's softclaim during D1 twilight." See, BMWS was under the impression that Wisdom caught the softclaim during twilight itself, when in reality Wisdom caught it after I told him to ISO Mala. If BMWS was scum, he'd have known that Wisdom didn't catch that in the moment because of the scum PT. Dunno what to make of this.

Thoughts, bork/Newbie?

Lastly, I know I said to ignore Wisdom after L-1 but this post is particularly notable for mentioning both acryon and BMWS. He goes after Constantine and BMWS for being overly neutral on him and townreads acryon for tunneling him. Then asking me to do cases on Constantine/BMWS and Riddleton/BMWS, ending the day saying scum is Const/BMWS.

Last post is just 1821 which is BMWS putting Const at L-1 and telling the town not to hammer until Const checks in. Townpoints there.

No verdict until the acryon notes.

[Mathdino]

So later on, Wisdom criticises the Constantine wagon saying he's 'annoying and hypocritical but most likely town'. Clearly true. Note however that this was directly after my and

wgeurts's

BMWS's votes on Const.

FTFMe

[Mathdino]

The BMWS wagon is making me really uncomfortable. I've got some games to look at and I'll come back and read this in more depth.

[Mathdino]

If I have one problem with Mathdino is that he pushed town literally all game until my Wisdom thing.

The problem here is we're literally left with Newbie, and the 3 people who were pretty much pushing Wisdom-sponsored lynches. This applies to all of us.

[Mathdino]

but to me it was ultimately a null/lean scum-motivation.

You think that particular interaction with Mala leans scum? Why

It's not that I necessarily think it leans scum on its own or very strongly. More-so that I think it more leans-scum to me than leans-town if that makes sense. I think it is mostly a null, but if the choices are between: (A) Town genuinely annoyed/curious about why the quickhammer and (B) Scum using twilight to feign townie frustration, then in the case of BMWS, I choose (B).

To expound on that, the only way I really see that being scummy from BMWS is if he were scum trying to fake that exact interaction so that I'd townread him for it.

Which is something he would have no idea I'd do at that point.

The alternative is that he was actually really worried about Mala after that hammer, which did not involve hedging on Vic's alignment. That makes this more about Mala than Vic, and the only reason that would be the case was him trying to figure Mala out.

So it doesn't look like bmws was genuinely trying to read mala there?

See, it's that section that really solidified BMWS-town for me. And no, I don't think he was trying to read Mala. Like I said D1, I know BMWS personally, and that is literally exactly how I'd have expected him to react to a situation like that. A "WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT" type thing, just hoping that the answer was a good one. I just don't know if that's something he'd try to do for towncred.

Mathdino in particular has been getting almost no pressure from anyone due to how townleader-y he's been the whole game. You just wrote him off as well - just wondering where your head is there.

He did a similar thing to Newbie (even going so far as to suggest voting Newbie is a scumclaim). That seems like a really silly thing to say.

I said it was that or someone could write up a bunch of reasons it's not Newbie, or reasons it could still be. The fact of the matter is, the setup stuff that happened in the past few days almost completely clears her.
If this comes down to LyLo and you die, bork, then it's going to be between 2 of {me, acryon, BMWS} and Newbie. That's not going to be pretty if we still have paranoia about her slot.

[Mathdino]

In that regard, you and Mathdino become more attractive lynches than BMWS/Newbie.

That being said, someone killed not_mafia (a slot that had pretty much done nothing) and Mala (a slot that had posted nothing substantive since D1) over me (someone who has been continually engaged since my replace in).

That is likely not an accident and could actually point to one of BMWS/Newbie scum (the two slots I have defended the hardest).

That's what's making me a little iffy about acryon being scum. Based on your reads, you could've been predicted to go after him immediately, and it'd be game over for him.
I'm going to have to look over Newbie myself then.

[Mathdino]

But at the same time, look at BMWS right now. He literally says he'd be more willing to vote acryon over me, and then he writes a case where everything leans null-town. Wouldn't optimal play here be to get me and bork to jump on acryon, enter tomorrow and try to survive LyLo?

Really do have to look over Newbie again.

[Mathdino]

Newbie,

why are you not voting me? Your reasoning for voting BMWS would make me think you'd be more willing to vote me on those points.

[Mathdino]

He votes wgeurts

here but adds "only so that he can create a good defense to Mathdino." The way it's worded is really weird, as if he knows that wgeurts is town and is just looking for an easy avenue to back out of wgeurts' lynch or an easy avenue to stay on it.

Next,

he decides to jump on and hound SilverWolf

(this is before Riddleton replaced her) along with Mathdino, Wisdom, Acryon, and VD (

which is funny because all three mafia are amongst the five

) for her over emotional response to Mathdino's questioning. Mathdino even calls attention to his buddying.

His next vote is on Constantine

. Constantine was a pretty easy target at the time because of his obnoxious behavior. Also note that Constantine was one of the alternate lynches to VD.

He mentions not finding Wisdom scum

. He also makes a show of getting on Constantine's case and asks him what exactly makes Wisdom town when he never explained why he himself doesn't think Wisdom isn't scum. Still doesn't vote for Wisdom ever after this post.

All in all, I think he jumped on easy town lynches while avoiding Wisdom's and VD's

.

Vote: blindmewithscience

You've gotta be kidding me, Newbie. I bolded things that BMWS has done that are exactly what I've done.

You need to explain what makes my play and BMWS's play different, because I'm seriously getting the idea that you're hopping on an easier lynch.

[Mathdino]

Newbie, I can see it because from my standpoint I've been more townish than BMWS from the moment I got my PM.
That's not what I'm trying to establish.

I'm trying to see what it is that sets BMWS apart from me in your eyes. Because at the end of the day, you're scumreading BMWS for doing

exactly

what I've done and you need to expand on that a bit. Does my townishness outweigh the fact that I've done those things, or is doing those things just not scummy for me?

Basically what I'm saying is "Try again" when it comes to that BMWS case.

[Mathdino]

bork, Newbie's case sucks, I'll just leave it at that. acryon's is alright, but Newbie is making me think she's going after BMWS solely because he's an easier lynch target.

So yeah, I'm going to ask why she's townreading me, because based on her BMWS case, she shouldn't be.

[Mathdino]

So just to be clear, you find my jumping on bad lynches outweighed by the more townish things I've done? Because your post also doesn't illustrate why BMWS is jumping on easy lynches and I'm just misguided.

[Mathdino]

Hmm, alright.

Have you looked over acryon yet? Decided why it's not him?

[Mathdino]

^This.

I was just about to say that the fact that everyone is townreading me is giving me the same pause that bork is getting from even being alive.
One of them knows I'm not an easy target.

[Mathdino]

It's creepy, isn't it?

I'm going to go look over Newbie's meta.

[Mathdino]

I fully admit to being a not-so-great scumhunter. Your 'consistently wrong' thing is reminding me of how according to mastin, her scumtells are literally just being wrong about the game. Unfortunately, I'm not as good as her.

Check Stack The Deck and Thesp's game. In neither was I on a scum lynch, and I'd even hard defended scum on multiple occasions.

[Mathdino]

bork, question.

Wouldn't optimal play for me as scum here be instead of writing up a case on BMWS that mostly comes to the conclusion of null-town, write a case on him showing he's scum, be wrong about that, kill you, and enter LyLo with acryon and Newbie fighting each other?

Wouldn't that have been easier?

[Mathdino]

Ah, difference. Wisdom was trying to cover his ass after he made a mistake. He did one careless thing that we saw through. The answer to his 'why would I do that' question was really just 'you were being dumb'.

I'm asking you what optimal play would be in my position, being townread by everyone except you. I spent 20 mins writing up that case on BMWS. That was a conscious and thought-out decision, I think that's clear regardless of my alignment.

Why would I do that, going against both acryon and Newbie (hence drawing out the day), instead of going along with it and killing you for an easy LyLo?

[Mathdino]

But I wouldn't.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if I were scum, I'd have this game in the

bag

, and I'm not the type to draw things out unnecessarily.

It's kind of like how you know someone is town in LyLo by the fact that they don't hammer. A bit premature, I know, but still. Doing what I'm doing now would be against my wincon.

Newbie's town meta isn't interesting. She replaced in late and she was an inno child so the play would be fairly different.

[Mathdino]

2nded

.

I'm not hammering BMWS though, don't worry. I honestly doubt I'm going to be voting him today; this game doesn't make sense with him as scum.

[Mathdino]

In the house, gimme a sec. I can understand why you had issues with my questioning of Newbie, so I'll explain that with your case.

[Mathdino]

There are just things that don't sit well to me in his ISO and interactions today with people have been weird. I don't care how much he posts or how wordy those posts are.
I have compelling reasons to think others are town. acryon's trajectory on BMWS is a bit weird with his interaction with me - although his confusion as to why I'm just not getting it points to it making sense to him - but his ISO just doesn't read scum. I'm not sure how to articulate it. I do think one of the people pushing Constantine is probably scum because he was just such an easy target.

He was also the obvious one what with... everything we had to suspect him; I'm not sure anyone even disagreed with that lynch.

I think a common theme for him is that his read on people is somewhat overly commensurate with how much other people's cases make logical sense, which is something I kinda associate with scum who have no true gut reads because they're scum. Stuff like 830. There's a weird seam there between 'Riddleton's case on Vic sucks so I still think Vic is town' and 'Riddleton is scum for his [dubious] freudian scumslip' that just doesn't seem organic to me.

Yeah, I remember that. Basically, people default town to me. When I see cases written by strong players, I think "Oh, this is probably going to point out something I haven't seen before", hence the 'prepared to vote Victor'. Of course, then I realised the case sucked, so I was back to square one with Victor. The scumslip thing was more of a nail in the coffin of an already scummy slot; recall what I asked people that day or D2, can't remember, it was "Is what Riddleton's done enough to redeem him from all the scummy things SilverWolf's done?" I gave Riddle a free pass since he was a replacement and not playing terribly, but then came the mistake he made and I was ready to go after the slot again.

Only thing I'm getting from people townreading Mathdino is 'lol effort'. I hate to burst your bubble, but effort posting isn't alignment indicative. You can write cases to make any point you want, as evidenced by the fact that all of the people he's pursued as such have flipped the wrong way.

No, that's not a scumtell. But it's also not a towntell - there is obvious potential for scum motivation to do what he's done this game: aggressively and exhaustively pursue town. It gets them lynched and gets him townread. I think he knows when to capitulate (note his absolute deference to me as soon as I became confirmed, and I don't just mean not suspecting me, I mean not ruffling my feathers at all) and when to fight for things.

Again, I fully admit I'm not an amazing scumhunter. But being wrong is not a scumtell, you have to understand this. Your case reads to me like you can't make sense of this game otherwise and you're trying to show people that a townread on me isn't accurate, and if so, I get that. But none of this makes me scum. It just shows the game isn't completely inconsistent with me being scum.
On the capitulation, I work with my townreads. That's all I got, I don't see the issue with that.

I think there are hints of TTH being on to him too (604).

Yeah, I buddied Wisdom too much early on. He was my strongest townread and his playstyle really spoke to mine. I do hope you can see why I did do that, though, and how it makes sense from a town perspective.

I don't get the "Newbie if you're scumreading BMWS for hopping on to X wagons you should also be scumreading me for it" angle because it's fucking weird to have come from town.
1) Town should realize that scum buddy/sheep/parrot/whatever town all the time
2) BMWS is tonally nothing like Mathdino this game (hell just look at the postcount) and you're not comparing apples to apples at all. Hell you bolded what the wagons were while glossing over the reasoning. You really want to argue that BMWS made the exact same arguments that you did for everything? No? Then your point is bad.
3) The whole 'write a better case on BMWS' (rather then 'you scum Newbie?') request after all that gives him an easy out to just hop on BMWS later if whatever Newbie writes passes the smell test for

the other townies

(or at least he can sell it to them later so they buy it). This point is important - it's less about whether or not Newbie is scum for making the argument and more about making sure that his sheeping that BMWS isn't going to turn town against him tomorrow, because that is ultimately the difference between a town win and scum win tomorrow if he's scum. His whole thing about 'not lynching BMWS right then plays against scum-Mathdino's wincon' is fucking bollocks.

I understand your issue with this, it was a ballsy line of questioning. Here's what I was going for: I thought it might've been possible Newbie had been going after the low hanging fruit today, and wrote up a case on BMWS instead of acryon or me because BMWS is easier to lynch. What made me suspicious is the fact that while acryon's case on BMWS was in depth as to the interactions between him and Wisdom and Victor, or the style of his posts, Newbie's case outlined behaviours that were not exclusive to BMWS. I figured that if she was town, based on her case, she should also be scumreading me for the same behaviours. So I told her to differentiate us, and put it in her own words.

acryon already wrote the best case on BMWS that's going to come today, IMO. The only thing that'll convince me to vote him is a damn good reason that acryon and Newbie are both town; this will have to override my huge gutread on him along with the part where he could've asked Wisdom wtf people meant when it came to the mason thing if he was scum. That's not what I was going for, and again, I highly doubt I'll be voting BMWS today. The idea was to see Newbie's thought process, because I already know acryon's fairly well.

What I meant back there was I came out of the gate with a case on BMWS after reading his ISO. You're correct in one thing: it IS easy to force a case to swing a certain way. My point is, with acryon and Newbie both suspecting him, why would I not write up a scumcase on BMWS, show everyone my 'thought process' as I usually do, and then enter LyLo with acryon and Newbie both townreading me?
Do you really think I would've gotten any flak for voting BMWS after writing a case on him? Would that be a sensible prediction given the position I was in?

Edit: Uh, shit. Sorry.

[Mathdino]

If you're town, then I apologise for that. I don't recall calling your reads crap, but rather suspicious. Your Wisdom case read bussing at the time, and your BMWS case read like going after low-hanging fruit. Your reads list was extremely fencesitty.

Honestly, before wgeurts/Constantine got offed, I'd have gone with acryon, but as it is, his behaviour is starting to make me lean to you. I agree that BMWS's input is going to be important here.

[Mathdino]

looking through more D1 stuff:

Mathdino's push on Wgeurts for 'mason fishing' (as if that were easily discernable between looking for scumbuddy interactions, especially considering it was pretty obvious Wgeurts generally had no idea what the fuck he was doing regardless of alignment) on D1 was fucking awful

Forgot to respond to this. What threw me for a loop was that wgeurts entered the game with a Slayer Gambit and generally showed himself capable of

pretending

he had no idea what the fuck he was doing (and has shown himself to be capable of that in other games), so I figured he was mason-fishing using the mask of a newbtown. I realised the error when NM (in one of his actual useful posts) pointed out that if wgeurts is pretending to be newbtown, that extends to his games sitewide, which doesn't seem sensible.
Everything there hinged on the idea that wgeurts DID know what he was doing and was pretending not to. He's rolefished before as scum.

[Mathdino]

Alright, let's look at Newbie.

16 by Wisdom was an initial interaction, literally "Hi Newbie, how do you feel about voting Mathdino with us". Bit weird, nothing Wisdom hasn't done to town. Here you can see the resulting conversation, where they discuss the merits of RVS and Newbie seems to miss that Wisdom's vote was a serious one. Now then, the initial reason we all suspected Victor was for being semi-suspicious of me for asking for Newbie's meta. In 80 he says it's 'premature'. It's unquestionable this was out of place as any alignment, so the question is whether he did that in the hopes of getting suspicion going on me, or to defend Newbie. The latter scenario isn't inconsistent; his early weirdness might've been a result of premature panicking, resulting in soft-defence. Moving on from that,

Newbie's vote on wgeurts was sketchy, let's be honest. It's a soft-defence of Wisdom combined with a conspiracy theory on wgeurts. Here she discusses Victor claiming she voted wgeurts because he stood out to her (not bad) and then claims she was suspicious of Victor for the same reasons everyone was, but that his responses satisfied her. Except... she never stated suspicion on Victor. I said this before I think.

213 has Victor stating he likes "both the vote and point from Newbie in 124." Nothing standing out. Then here in 228 Newbie almost preempts her suspicion of wgeurts, saying that as town, she often jumps on extremely scummy players and they end up flipping town. Reads like preparation for possibly being wrong about wgeurts.

237, her Wisdom case. Now, let's be clear, Wisdom was not scummy D1. It was D2 where he stood out, but not early D1. See, Newbie was the first one to write up a case on Wisdom, stretching his actions a bit to look scummy, followed by going back to wgeurts. Scum tends to be hyperaware of their partners' shady behaviour because they know each other to be scum. wgeurts going after Wisdom, that makes sense from his perspective since he knew himself to be town and he was half OMGUSing. But Newbie- there wasn't really much to be suspicious of Wisdom for at that stage. Wisdom did not respond to said case.

Then right after I asked Newbie what her thoughts were on Wisdom's wgeurts votepost, Newbie votes Wisdom here with the validation of wgeurts's case. Then in 313 she arbitrarily townreads Silver for agreeing with her, and states that a Silver/Wisdom pair is unlikely for no discernible reason. But 324 is what I had an issue with back then. Newbie goes out on a limb and states that if Wisdom flips town, she's probably going to be a top scum candidate. This shows awareness of other's perception of her, and the fact that she was willing to gamble that made me think she might've been bussing Wisdom. I actually forgot about that until I think acryon brought it up. Well, Wisdom flipped scum and Newbie got her towncred.

341 shows a conversation between Wisdom and Newbie, where he repeats that one of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, but that he's leaning toward SW. Newbie responds saying it can't be helped if multiple people find an action scummy. But here's the thing I don't like: Wisdom asks Newbie directly, " How do you think your and SW's votes look". He's asking her about how others would perceive her behaviour. This very strongly suggests coaching to me. Then in 389 she responds to my bussing accusation, along with echoing the statement that Silver/Wisdom aren't scum together with the statement that wgeurts is not bussing Wisdom. Doesn't state reasons for coming to this conclusion. Also I don't know about acryon, but I found her response to my thoughts on her/Wisdom rather scummy with the knowledge now that Wisdom is town.

681 is why we townread Newbie. This, I'm still having an issue with reconciling. I suppose scum-her could be just going along with TTH, but I don't know. I want to note to acryon, however, that BMWS had a very similar interaction, except he just didn't realise what we were talking about. So I guess the only person clearable from that is TTH?
I don't know. Moving on. Directly afterwards she states intent to go back to look at Victor because "a lot of people seem suspicious of him." Hm.

I believe I already commented on the fencesittiness of her reads lists, I'm not going to go back to that.

Reaction to the Victor lynch: Here she states that she wants more from Victor, saying there's more time for that, but then states that Victor was probably willing to run up the time in 925.

Here, here, and here Wisdom defends Newbie pretty hard. And then here Newbie agrees with Wisdom on the entire Mala argument but keeps her vote on Wisdom.
I didn't really feel like goign through and analysing the majority of the Newbie/Wisdom interaction, because it's back-and-forth and tiresome and could go either way.

But I do want to note one thing last. Newbie's cases on Victor and Wisdom were well thought out, somewhat in depth (her case on Victor was her reads list). However, her votes for Riddleton, Constantine, and acryon had literally nothing attached to them, they were bandwagoning (her wgeurts reasoning was pretty short). Her case on BMWS was the first case and vote she's made that wasn't on a scumpartner. I think this game she's been hyperaware of what her scumbuddies have been doing, and thus was able to gather up more info on them as opposed to the other wagons.

Edit: Responding to the above in a sec. Sorry for the length, I sometimes treat the thread as my personal notes.
tl;dr: The only thing stopping me from voting Newbie is the TTH interaction.

[Mathdino]

What threw me for a loop was that wgeurts entered the game with a Slayer Gambit and generally showed himself capable of pretending he had no idea what the fuck he was doing (and has shown himself to be capable of that in other games) so I figured he was mason-fishing using the mask of a newbtown.

lol no you didn't

you arbitrarily decided he was mason fishing because "interactive tells are different in a mason game" which is a silly argument in and of itself - just because masons will act a certain way doesn't mean that scum will necessarily act differently than normal to compensate, nor should you be holding anyone to that arbitrary standard you just created. But I think you know that.

Even if you hadn't said that, I can't get from "wgeurts is capable of playing dumb as scum" to "wgeurts is necessarily mason fishing right now and could not possibly be pre-flip associative scumhunting and is therefore scum", because legitimately dumb town would obviously be genuinely trying to hunt via associative tells, considering that's exactly what he said he was doing. The slayer's gambit or whatever the fuck doesn't even apply here; he's just scumhunting, which is the obvious way to interpret Wgeurts' play that you somehow missed.

Not buying it.

Uh, yeah, I did, check my ISO. I expanded on this a lot in D1.

Interactive tells ARE different in a mason game. Wisdom tried to draw an association between 2 masons. Obviously he was incorrect (saying one of them was scum). Scum won't act differently, but when you try to draw associations, you have to be careful that you're not confusing scum with masons. I hold wgeurts to the standard of not drawing pre-flip associations in a mason game, just in case.

I didn't say he could not POSSIBLY be doing that. I found that the most likely scenario, compounded with the other scummy things he was doing. The moment someone uses a slayer's gambit or intends to look newbtown, they lose newbtown credibility with me. The fact that he was outright asking people straight up if they were masons was a bit too much for me.
I want to note again that wgeurts has in the past used his newbtown persona to rolefish as scum. I think my suspicions of him for that were very founded.

tl;dr: If you pretend to be newbtown once, you can do it again. Simply assuming he was newbtown would be naive (in absence of knowing his meta).

[Mathdino]

Well, it was a conclusion a fair number of people had made, so I'm sorry for being wrong on that. Do I need to say again that

wgeurts has rolefished under the guise of a newbtown persona before

? Check Stack The Deck, it just finished. That suspicion was not at all unfounded.

No, I'm voting because in that post there is some real scummy stuff. Just because Newbie voted me doesn't give im the right to be immune from me. The fact you're saying this shows a weak link woth Newbie, if he flips scum I'll be suspicious of you.

I just realised, you're mason fishing, aren't you? Interactive tells are very different in a mason game.

Yeah, this is enough for me to UNVOTE: Victor

VOTE: wgeurts

I brought up mason fishing because he kept talking about weak links. It looked like he was trying to get one of us to comment on said link.

A. My logic was just fine, thank you (until the meta argument on wgeurts), and
B. I am not scum for being wrong.

Edit: Yes, that's exactly what I did. Still not seeing the problem.
What are your thoughts on the Newbie case other than just thinking I'm scum?

[Mathdino]

I'm not perfect. Is that what you want? Who would you have preferred I vote back then?

[Mathdino]

No, I want you to answer me. If you were in my position back there, having just seen wgeurts done a crapton of scummy behaviours and then start pointing out 'weak links', what would you have done? You're the one that voted Wisdom for trying to draw associatives.

Spoiler: wgeurts rolefishing like hell

OMG

IF YOU'RE A VIG CLAIM

then we'll know if the second option actually happened. If you're a cog also say who you killed!

No, because if a vig killed droog it means the scum

had

to be roleblocked as the bodyguard didn't die. If the vig claims and calls his kill it'll confirm tex as scum.

You saying you're the vigilante?

You saying you're the vigilante?

No.

Why would you otherwise want to claim. Your post makes no sense.

This is after a claim was made that could be counterclaimed by several roles. If a vig existed, the claim would be nullified. Here wgeurts tries to demand a claim from the vig instead of just letting the vig shoot.

Can't we policy lynch random midget with the added bonus of him being possible scum more so than others?

Or we could lynch him because he's probably scum and not cry if he's town. Policy lynch D2 is a terrible idea.
If he doesn't get lynched today, it's probably because he became not-useless and thus a LyLo asset.

Yeah but if he's like now and he flips town honestly I won't cringe (Well, I will as yeah 2 dead town but you get the point). He's being useless and still isn't responding,

we need one more vote so we can demand a claim

. Which will give info.

Someone please L-1 him so we can demand a claim, he's useless as he is now but a claim could give good information.

Textcat you just blew up again and you're playing horribly different to your newbie game however it's ongoing so I can't discuss it. I'm seeing a possible newb try-harding and loosing his cool. It's that or you have more experience with mafia and you are generally playing town or scum. I must ask you however, to answer this:
Have you had any experience of mafia outside of MS?
If so, where and can you give links if possible?
I don't have enough info to meta you yet so in the mean while...
VOTE: RandomMidget
No way you recovered from hating on me and capsrage to being the damsel in distress. You too are a newb to mafia so this whole "I'm having trouble scum-hunting" seems like your changing your story without realising it. First it was you were lurking to not get lynched, then it was because you've got IRL problems and are having trouble scum-hunting. I fell for you flail but you recovered too quickly, in an almost faked manner. You have no excuse as town to not try and scum-hunt or not state your oppinions, you shouldn't care what others think you should just do something.

Claim.

Go ahead and claim

, also nobody hammer or I'll personaly force a lynch on you tommorow. Declare intent, I want this midget to squirm.

I elwas referring to PRs. And rown and Scum are already going to soft claim town. I've already pointed out the misreps please read my posts.

I'm not looking for role tells, I'm looking for who's not mafia.

I want you to claim however as if you are PR

to give you a chance to not get mis-lynched. It also allows for counter-claims ect. so it can help the town. It's normal to claim at L-1 I'm pretty sure.

I did it to Random Midget actually just to point that out. However I thought it's site meta to claim at L-1 this happened in all my newbie games for instance. I also wanted him to claim as to give himself a chance to save himself if he's a PR (hence I said don't hammer, we need as many PR's alive as possible.) and if he false claims as scum it could lead to a counter-claim. Basically I want to be sure we're hitting scum with the lynch,

Aronis refused to claim and look what happened. Claims as said before provide info and it's D2 and we really need to avoid a mis-lynch

. That's why I wanted him to claim.

His ISO if you ctrl+F 'claim' is just kind of lolworthy. And I townread him that game because I assumed he was being newbtown going by his meta.
Edit: responding in a sec

[Mathdino]

So you mean
kinda like
your post on me?

I wrote a case on BMWS. There wasn't scum motivation behind his posts.
I looked at acryon's ISO. I didn't feel like writing anything because I was having issues seeing scum motivation, especially with the Wisdom push and backing off for more discussion D2. And his behaviour today has been insanely townish.
I looked at Newbie's ISO. I can see scum motivation.

There aren't many options here, bork. The post on Newbie was if anything to show how her play has been consistent with scum, because BMWS and acryon have been inconsistent with a scum play.

[Mathdino]

You went after me, bork, because the game doesn't make sense to you with acryon, Newbie, or BMWS is scum.
I understand that. I don't have an issue with that.

However you have to understand that that's the reasoning behind both of our suspicions; of the 3 remaining players, Newbie is the only one I can see being scum after everything that's happened, and that's only if I ignore the TTH interaction.

[Mathdino]

@Newbie:
1. Can't argue with your first point really.
2. Not sure if you know the definition of fluff- fluff is posting that's unrelated to the game. Wisdom was very much contributing to discussion back there. I think the main reason you saw that he wasn't scumhunting is because you knew he wasn't.
3. But it was the confidence that gets to me. Saying that you're liable to getting lynched if you're wrong is pretty unnecessary.
4. Yes, I know your reads list was done on purpose. That's why I didn't comment on it again; I just made a note there to say that I wasn't skipping over that in your ISO.

Edit:
@bork: Yes, you're right. I'm retroactively defending my logic as valid, because you seem so opposed to the idea that it's POSSIBLE he was rolefishing from our points of view back there. I was unaware of any of his meta when I voted him. However the fact that he made the Slayer Gambit means, again, he's capable of pretending to be newbtown and using it to his advantage.
Yeah, this pretty much amounts to 'I could've been right' but that's all I got when you're slamming me for making that vote which I thought was perfectly valid.

@Newbie: Nah, here's the thing. If he were scum, what he should be doing right now is making the argument that acryon is scum. Self defence, essentially. But he comes in, reads acryon's ISO, and... reads everything as null.
My response: What?
It's town because it holds true to his earlier play of trying to figure the game out, even when he might get lynched due to the lack of other suitable lynch candidates.

[Mathdino]

On the contrary; I find my read on BMWS to be strong enough that I won't be convinced to vote him. Knowing him, I don't think he'd fake the question about the TTH incident, and I think it'd be difficult for him to fake trying to figure out the game. I know his thought process. I've competed with him. This game is

exemplary

of said thought process.

However, a case on acryon might convince me, and I don't want to do anything until acryon and BMWS check back in.

[Mathdino]

Counterquestion, Newbie, what will convince you to not vote BMWS? 2nd: Suppose BMWS walks in here and self hammers and bork dies tonight. Who do you vote?

[Mathdino]

Your argument is a bit difficult to respond to due to the structure, but I'll do what I can. Actually, I'll summarise a history of me and wgeurts:

1. This game happens, the dude pretends to be newbtown as a reaction test and then tries to point out weak links and then asks for a claim.
2. Not_Mafia points out that if wgeurts is pretending to be newbtown, he's extending that meta to the entire site, which is implausible. So I stop being suspicious of him; I'd never looked at his meta before this point.
3. I later townread wgeurts solely due to interaction with Victor; this interaction is stronger than the meta argument to prove he's town.
4. Meanwhile, in the other game, I excuse all his actions as newbtown because that's what I know of his meta, which was not only present here but also in like 3 games that I read containing him. He's a bit out of touch when it comes to L-1, hammer, and claiming conventions. There was a PokerFace game that illustrated this IIRC.
5. wgeurts flips scum in the other game and I realise that the whole newbtown pushing for claims like hell thing was all a ruse, and that he is in fact capable of using his meta to his advantage to rolefish.
6. wgeurts gets modkilled here. Can't remember which of 5/6 happened first, but whatever. By this point I was ignoring him in favour of Const/Riddle.
7. You claim that my initial reasons for suspecting wgeurts were BS and I shouldn't have suspected him for that.
8. I use Stack The Deck to show that no, it wasn't BS, because people like wgeurts DO use the guise of newbtown to rolefish, so it's ludicrous to say that I should have just ignored that.

The crux of the matter is you're saying I shouldn't have suspected wgeurts for that, and I'm saying yes, I really should have, suspecting him was the right thing to do in that situation.

[Mathdino]

Because that game happened after I was aware of his meta. I didn't want to make the same mistake I did here, of suspecting him for making dumb moves.
Guess what? I was wrong in that game. I should have suspected him as the others did instead of making excuses for him.

You've never answered me on this question and I really do want to know this: Who would you have had me vote back then? A lurker? Someone on V/LA? Wisdom, one of the most active players before he'd done anything off?

wgeurts was the scummiest person at the time. I'd make that vote again if I were to play this again. And you'll note that multiple other people pretty much used the exact same mason-fishing argument when it came to suspecting him.

[Mathdino]

Brother, you're slamming me for having suspicions that were shared by a whole lot of people that were built on very legitimate reasons. If you were there, would you really have defended what wgeurts was doing?

It's a rhetorical question that you choose to not answer in favour of tunneling, essentially.

[Mathdino]

See #3. wgeurts was practically confirmed town to me after searching through Victor's meta and his interactions with wgeurts. Furthermore, I'd already PoE'd wgeurts off the table.

I didn't meta him because once again, the Slayer Gambit at the beginning of the game proved he was capable of pretending to be town.
Why do you find it so odd that I didn't meta wgeurts, when I practically meta'd half the rest of the playerlist? Who I choose to meta is pretty much determined by the surety of my reads (or when I want to draw associatives).

Look bork, you of all the people in this game need to be considering 2nd options and expanding on this since we're not going to have your thoughts tomorrow if we lynch wrong. That's cool, I'm scum. Great. So who do we lynch if I flip town? Have you actually considered my Newbie case?

Edit: A question that you're throwing out as a result of tunneling. Who would town-me, reasonable-me, me-that-uses-perfect-logic vote?
Edit2: Right. I goaded him into asking me if I was a mason. Makes sense.

[Mathdino]

k. so.
Case 1: I'm town and tunneling wgeurts. I don't expect wgeurts to say 'yes' to the mason-fishing question (it was rhetorical) because I think he's scum and lying.
Case 2: I'm scum and jumping on wgeurts. I don't expect wgeurts to say 'yes' to the mason-fishing question because why would town try to do that?
It was a rhetorical question that he was going to answer 'no' to either way.

If someone does something stupid and then claims that the right response to their reaction test was to call them newbtown, I'm going to expect them to be a lot more competent. So yes, if they do or say something with scum motivation that looks newbtown, I'm going to assume they're faking it. Again.

Edit: I meta'd him after NM pointed out his meta. This changed my perception of wgeurts in both games.

[Mathdino]

Yet I've seen a lot from BMWS and acryon that would be more likely coming from town than scum, and in fact is inconsistent with them being scum.

I also don't think you've mentioned anything about me either that would be more likely to come from scum than town. Wrongness is not a scumtell. Being on town wagons is not a scumtell. It's equally likely from both alignments.

Look, we're all stretching things here because we expected scum to be in Constantine/Riddleton. But at least be honest about it, because for the most part all 5 of us were townreading each other before the modkills.
I'll be honest. Newbie's behaviour was fishy to me up until you 'confirming' her as town. BMWS and acryon were always townreads.
Yet on your side, you were townreading me in full before this happened and you PoE'd me as scum. Why was this wgeurts voting stuff not apparent to you before?
Probably because objectively looking at this game without PoE, I'm town.

Edit: Their response is a nulltell. Some people are calm, some are emotional. I don't do reaction tests.

[Mathdino]

Newbie was the first person to write a case and provide a ton of reasons on why Wisdom was scum. TTH's vote was explicitly a gutread. Her later tunneling didn't come until after Newbie.
Scum don't just gutread each other as scum, AFAIK.

[Mathdino]

That's great. bork, unvote now and come up with a 2nd suspect. You WILL die tonight after I flip and I'm completely unsure as to which of acryon and Newbie is scum. Assume I'm town for 10 seconds so we can figure this out. Doesn't matter to me if I get lynched at this point.

[Mathdino]

You're not GOING to be left alive tomorrow.

[Mathdino]

I've just been reading along, because I think it is better for the sake of the argument to see him answer your questions 1-on-1 without my interjections, which would certainly be somewhat biased due to my long-standing Mathdino town-read. I'll be honest that

this conversation has definitely made me feel worse about him

. I will also say that I have been in similar situations as Mathdino before and

answered questions poorly

as town, which could be happening here, but with how confidently he has been playing a lot of this game, that's a little harder to believe.

I think your arguments have a lot of merit, and his responses to your arguments didn't exactly help his case

. But I don't think it's completely crazy to look to you since you're the only conftown. I know it's kind of a crappy position for you to be in, but with so much uncertainty, it just makes sense to put extra stock in the one certainty we have.

Yeah, I mean Silverwolf never seemed to explicitly state a suspicion of Mathdino, but 347 from him really looks like maybe he should have.

I think your case is good

, and

this conversation between you two has done some serious work to convince me

. I do want to point out that I am taking full responsibility for this vote. Bork is already in a position of sort of being stuck with the weight of the town, and I have no interest in pretending he forced me into this decision. This is making me feel really stupid for feeling like I was on the same wave-length with Mathdino most of the game, but this game has already proven how weak my gut can be I guess.

Definitely never thought I would be doing this:
VOTE: Mathdino

acryon. Look at yourself. I bolded the reasoning for your vote.
Explain how this has convinced you and what about my play in the past few pages gives his argument merit. Because from my perspective, I'm being voted for defending the logic that's been shat on.
The fact that you're not even explaining what led you to this decision but you repeated that bork convinced you like 5 times is making me reconsider my Newbie read.

No one hammer anyone until bork and the hammered person come up with tomorrow's lynch candidate.

Edit: Yeah, I agree. Good.

[Mathdino]

Awkward moment when if someone steps in and hammers me, that's on you...
>.>
<.<
>.>

I am not going to let myself die if acryon and Newbie are just gonna quicklynch BMWS come LyLo.

[Mathdino]

bork, can you unvote like now? I am not going to lose this game because someone PoE'd a newbie out of the realm of possibility of being scum.

[Mathdino]

1. 241 is not a response to a scumpartner.
2. The ol 'two sides to this town' (ain't big enough for the both of us) post, scum would not explicitly draw a line and step on the side with both their scumpartners.
3. 387 leads everyone STRAIGHT to Wisdom if wgeurts ended up getting lynched, which was a real possibility.
4. His 'why did you do that?!?!' to Malakittens after she hammered. This is gut. His response was literally EXACTLY how I'd have expected him to respond as town.
5. "I'm remembering [Wisdom] saying that he caught Mala's softclaim during D1 twilight." This must have come from town because if he were scum, he would've just asked Wisdom in the scum PT. He wouldn't have used that wording.
6. Puts Constantine at L-1 but tries to get the town to slow down the lynch until Const checks in.
7. The smoking... anti... gun?

Wait, so if you 3 are the masons, could someone explain the "specific setup-related thing" that happened starting with post 666? I thought that that was mason-related but it doesn't seem to be...

This. Could not have come from scum. He would've just asked scum in the PT.

[Mathdino]

Newbie, let's not forget his entire D3 play:

How does Bork have less information? Pls explain.

If I'm deciding between you and acryon , I'd vote aceyon for now

. I'll go through Both of you though,

trying to find scum without confbias

.

Whoops, fell asleep while looking through acryon's ISO
I'm a bit busy ATM, but got through about 2/3 of it all. I'll just point out a few things right now, and try to make a larger post later.
556: IF he were scum, then it would be really weird for him to directly point out his two scumbuddies, especially at this point in the game.

For me, this leans him null-town.

560: Says that scum-Wisdom leading the wgeurts lynch is highly unlikely. I semi-agreed with this at the time, though it obviosuly turned out to be incorrect.

This brings him back to null.

1221: Thinks Wisdom is misguided town, Constantine is scum, but

with valid reasons

(and both ended up incorrect).
I'll try to post something more substantial later.

He comes in and after being asked who he'd lynch between me and acryon, he'd choose acryon.
Cool.
Then why would he make a case that shows acryon is null?
He went through acryon's ISO, just like I asked him to, and he's clearly having trouble finding any scum after getting rid of his confbias. Scum in his situation SHOULD be writing up a case on why acryon is scum if only in self preservation, and then latching onto bork's argument to get me lynched in LyLo, at which point he endgames Newbie.

[Mathdino]

Can everyone here please provide their lynch orders?

Mine is Newbie, acryon, BMWS, myself.

Newbie

, what do you mean by 'get away with the same thing VD was doing'?

[Mathdino]

Provide your lynch order, Newbie.

The point on 387 is that he stated (repeatedly) D1 that Wisdom and wgeurts are not scum together. Over. And over. And over. And he knew that wgeurts was a very likely lynch that day.
He did it again here.
And again here.

Yes, it occurred to me, but this is combined with everything else. And this is COMBINED with my really strong gutread on him that's been present from the beginning.

What's the alternative to getting acryon lynched? Scum has to survive. Town doesn't.

He's putting things off because he's been really busy this week. This is a sitewide 'putting things off'. Don't misrep that.

Edit: hang on

[Mathdino]

Specifically:
-The wgeurts meta situation is a very weird slip, and I didn't buy your answer to it.
-Post like 1956 are awkwardly emotional compared to the way you've played a lot of this game.
-1928 in general is very on-point.

I don't feel the need to go through and put my thumbs up on everything he has said that I agree with and thumbs down on your responses, as I think the conversation speaks for itself. I have no reason to re-hash good arguments that he has already made. I won't say I'm 100% confident you are scum, but I am more confident in bork's case on you than in any case I have on anyone else. Maybe that's just a cop-out, but as the only confirmed-town, I have good reason to believe his play more than anyone else's, so putting extra weight on his input just makes sense IMO.

-I get defencive of my reasoning. I take pride in my reasoning. bork claims that I should never have voted wgeurts, I say 'like hell I shouldn't've'. It doesn't say why I'm town but it does say why that wasn't a bad move.
-I'm an awkwardly emotional guy. And I'd prefer my first loss to be a game I played poorly.

So what I'm getting is,
tl;dr: You're a sheep.

Edit: Give your lynch order, acryon.

[Mathdino]

Because I'm not ready to lynch anyone until I see people's lynch orders.

Do you see scum motivation in this?

[Mathdino]

bork, lynch order. After all, it looks like acryon'll be a bit lost without confirmed town's help tomorrow.

[Mathdino]

Can someone explain how I contradicted myself? All of the last 2 pages make sense to me.
Like, quote something and bold it, hit me over the head with it.

So Newbie, I'm guessing your order is then BMWS, acryon, me, you?

[Mathdino]

Getting lynched and acryon and Newbie lynching BMWS is a definite loss. I will lynch myself over a NL if the lynch orders prove satisfactory.

[Mathdino]

A. I run the danger of actually lynching someone. Which I don't want to do right now.
B. I want to see how other people are voting first.

Can you point out that contradiction?

[Mathdino]

I already made my case. I need BMWS's input before moving forward.
Do you really think that voting you is going to encourage more people to?
I also kinda want acryon to stop being a sheep and provide his own thoughts on this.

[Mathdino]

I'm also not saying I am ride or die with bork or anything, but I am finding myself trusting his reads more at this point than my own. Which is a little sad, but it's the fact of the matter.

So what you're telling me.
Is because he's confirmed town.
You trust a different confirmed town more than yourself, who is (presumably) confirmed town?

If you lynch me, 'ride or die' is exactly what you're doing.

The entirety of 2023 is just showing an inability to think for yourself. So go through my ISO. Go through Newbie's ISO. You already went for BMWS's so screw that. Show me why I'm a better candidate than them just because bork says so.

Also, you guys have yet to point out the contradiction. The conversation very much does not 'speak for itself'.

[Mathdino]

I'm not sure if this is a case of moving the goalposts or straw manning.

Quote the section where I contradicted myself.

[Mathdino]

Nice, you quoted bork.

bork claims that it was bad to vote wgeurts because the correct conclusion was that wgeurts was newbtown.
I say no, that's stupid, voting wgeurts was the right move at the time.
He says that it was a bad conclusion that wgeurts was rolefishing.
I say no, that's stupid, here's a bunch of examples that show wgeurts rolefishes.

I use Stack The Deck to show that bork's wrong and that people DO rolefish, and that it's dumb to be voting me because I made the conclusion that wgeurts was doing so. Stack The Deck did not inform any of my decisions this game. I feel as if my actions this game are justified enough to speak for themselves.

[Mathdino]

Lemme rephrase just in case.
I use Stack The Deck to show that bork's wrong.
I am not using it as justification for my original vote.
My original vote was because at the time, the Slayer's Gambit showed me that wgeurts was probably pretending to be newbtown.

[Mathdino]

I 'seemed to imply'? Really? You're going with that?

looking through more D1 stuff:

Mathdino's push on Wgeurts for 'mason fishing' (as if that were easily discernable between looking for scumbuddy interactions, especially considering it was pretty obvious Wgeurts generally had no idea what the fuck he was doing regardless of alignment) on D1 was fucking awful

This is the statement I'm trying to prove wrong. He says my push was 'fucking awful' and says it was pretty obvious wgeurts was newbtown and NOT mason-fishing.
I could've used any random person pretending to be newbtown when they were actually rolefishing. It doesn't matter that it was wgeurts. The point is, IT HAPPENS, and the assumption that someone is rolefishing especially after already pretending to be newbtown is a reasonable assumption to make.

Edit: It proves that rolefishing under the guise of newbtown happens, and bork is crazy for thinking that pushing wgeurts for that is awful. Again, I could pull any instance of anyone rolefishing like that and it'd be equivalent to the Stack The Deck point. But none of that informed my decision back then.

[Mathdino]

Par. A. Noi. A. Before this game even started I knew it was going to be different because you had to watch out for pre-flip associatives. See, if Newbie or BMWS made a statement like that, I'd have been fine and just told them to shut it. But wgeurts already used a newbtown persona, so from the beginning of this game I trained myself to watch out for him because I figured he's a lot more competent than he appears to be.
He was the best suspect at the time, and then came the "which one y'all motherfuckers is the mason" which just solidified my vote.

Edit: Yeah pretty much.

[Mathdino]

acryon, this is why I want you to go through my ISO. At the end of the day, bork is attacking me for a bad vote on a townie, and I'm not even trying to prove I'm town when it comes to this; I'm trying to prove that as a townsperson that was the right move.

We can't stay on this forever.

[Mathdino]

I can't even spoiler this crap because it has a spoiler in it. But you guys have a serious case of amnesia (granted, so do I, since you convinced me that 162 was literally the only reason I voted wgeurts).
This is why it isn't a contradiction, brother.

@Wisdom: The way wgeurts handled that seem pretty natural (I still don't like the Slayer Gambit). He seemed more focused on reactions to it than your own reaction; personally I wouldn't have expected much from you, considering you basically taunted him into voting, haha. I can't say I like how he's responding under pressure though.

Agreed on TTH though, scumhunting isn't the same as throwing out suspicions.

@wgeurts:

Don't spend all your posts defending. What're your reads

? Anything you've found interesting/want to point out?

Since when are early reads of little value

? I'm not asking you to dayvig scum, I'm asking you to participate in discussion

other than just defending yourself against... a couple questions

. The more we talk the more likely scum emerges.

Still not sure whether to FoS or to write off as current playstyle.

Yeah,

Slight FoS: You.

Why does acro seem town?

I gotta go somewhere now, but first of all

Please stop quoting text walls, it disincentivises catching up.

All you have to do is delete any quotes-within-quotes, only keep what you're responding to.

@wgeurts: ...

did you seriously just OMGUS Newbie... I'm keeping my vote on Victor but the way you're responding to people's attacking is really making me uncomfortable.

@Everyone else (mostly TTH): Not enough time to respond, will come back to this later.

This post is gonna be a joyride. NO ONE QUOTE ALL OF IT.

Spoiler:

As you can see from the bolded, Wisdom challenged wgeurts to do something about his discomfort of wagons. He most likely didn't expect that kind of response from Wisdom, and he kind of had no choice but to vote Wisdom since it would've looked bad not to back up his words after he put on a show of showing strong dislike towards Wisdom's random lynch in the first place.
[...]
With a little heat, he caved and unlynched, falling back on the explanation of reaction fishing. Lol. He even admits that his reasons were BS from the jump, but covered it up well with a "you're definitely town because you reacted a certain way to my sketchy reasoning, sketchy reasoning I definitely did on purpose."

Sorry, but that argument very much seems out of thin air. It wouldn't have looked bad at all to dislike something and not vote based on it; half the playerlist has done that. Again, I don't LIKE what he did but he's completely consistent with wanting to leave RVS.

Also, how was that pressure?
A quick ISO would already show that Mathdino had incorrectley read my playstyle. I had litteraly already said something along the lines of I'm going to yank us all out of RVS. This also seems really opurunistic as discussion is going on this subhect already and you're just like "Hey, guys check this new definetley not based off others case on wgeurts.". This seems really scum to me, the timing is just perfect.
VOTE: Newbie
I'll ISO in a second to see more.

I did? Show me where. My point was I wasn't sure if everything you said before the gambit was part of the gambit itself. And yes, it's not based off of others. Where's the opurunism in voting what she finds scummy?

You do know I already said they were weak as heck in or shortly after the vote and before pressure?
I beg you haven't even truely read all my posts and you jumped on me using others reasoning and some made up crumpets.

Also, if you've read my votes after that my intent was to get us out of RVS and the vote was a tool. Please meta read me and you will see this, votes are tools while needed and weapons once the time comes.

Haha, yeah I'm right. A quick ISO has shown you've done no scum hunting and literally just jumped on me out of the blue once people discussed my play. Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.

I recommend others to look at Newbies ISO.
Ignore his meta, the fact he's provided it probaly means he's aware of it and able to manipulate it.

I don't like these posts at all.

At the very least they showcase misguided arrogance, and at the most it's scummy

. It'd be a dumbass move to not read your posts whether town or scum (although given your post spamming, it wouldn't be as dumb now). Newbie did do scumhunting; her first target was you. Do you not count that as scumhunting because you were her first suspicion?

And lastly, did you just SELF-META

right before saying that Newbie providing her previous games should be discounted??? Newbie giving links for us to read is helpful.

You telling us why you're town because of it is suspicious.

I expected an OMGUS accusation to come from somewhere. Honestly I do find OMGUS rather weak, it basically allows you to attack someone as scum and if they retaliate you can shrug it off as OMGUS. I'm not voting Newbie as OMGUS, I'm voting him because her vote was very opportunistic and he hasn't scum hunted what so ever so far yet suddenley leaps on to me as discussion on me arises. If Newbie's actions change so will my read however if someone votes someone after they vote them it doesn't have to be OMGUS. It would have been OMGUS if I had no reasons to do so and voted him because he voted me. I did have reasons so no OMGUS. Now I can hear people saying;
"You only voted him because of his vote and push in his post though."
No, I'm voting because in that post there is some real scummy stuff. Just because Newbie voted me doesn't give im the right to be immune from me. The fact you're saying this shows a weak link woth Newbie, if he flips scum I'll be suspicious of you.

Is there anything Newbie could've said in her vote post that you wouldn't find suspicious? And I'm not sure how pointing out OMGUS is showing some sort of link. I have a townread on Newbie. However I could have a scumread on her and still think you're OMGUSing.

What the heck is wrong with random voting in the RVS?
My vote on him was almost litteraly based off thin air.

That was not a random vote. You made up a BS reason and voted him for reactions. That's not random.

You're being seriously inconsistent, man.

And yes, it was LITERALLY based off of thin air.

Okay I decided to spoiler the above but I highly recommend y'all reading. If you're gonna quote parts of it, remove the spoiler tag.

Conclusions: wgeurts is way scummier than I thought before

, but since I still don't think Victor and he are scum together, I'm going to keep my vote on Victor for now. Scumspects are in order, Victor or wgeurts, and TTH. Newbie still seems town.

No, I'm voting because in that post there is some real scummy stuff. Just because Newbie voted me doesn't give im the right to be immune from me. The fact you're saying this shows a weak link woth Newbie, if he flips scum I'll be suspicious of you.

I just realised, you're mason fishing, aren't you

? Interactive tells are very different in a mason game.

Yeah, this is enough

for me to UNVOTE: Victor

VOTE: wgeurts

You did read this post, right?

At post 127, I thought you were misguided. At post 131 I thought you were being arrogant. At post 134 I thought you were hypocritical. And by the time I went over 140 and 142, I thought you were inconsistent and scummy. By the time I noticed what I interpret as mason-fishing, I thought you were scum

.

Do you not care to respond to the rest of my post?

Scum want to find masons because masons are the only people other than scum that know people's alignments. So they look for interactive tells.

Which is what you just did with me and Newbie.

Well, on the bright side, you've answered my "Have you ever played with masons" question with a full-on "No".

Scum wants to find masons, because masons can confirm themselves as town by claiming.
Scum wants to kill known masons because they are confirmed town and thus unlikely to be lynched.
You pointing out possible 'weak links' is anti-town because it helps scum PR hunt.
You seriously wouldn't kill masons over a VT?

I legitimately can't tell whether you're pretending to not understand this or really don't. If you don't, then you're noobtown. But given your Slayer Gambit earlier, this could be just one more big reaction test.
My vote stands.

That was written before 181. Now you are FULL ON MASON FISHING

.

Lynch this guy

. I can't really put it any other way.

This is the evolution of my read on wgeurts. There were a MULTITUDE of reasons I had for finding him scummy, and 169 outright states that the mason-fishing point was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Thanks, by the way, for making me forget that I voted him for reasons other than mason-fishing.

[Mathdino]

He wasn't. Because he's town. This brings me back to...

I'm not perfect. Is that what you want?

[Mathdino]

The reason I thought he was mason-fishing is because I was paranoid, he was already insanely scummy, and I was uncomfortable with being linked with Newbie. 140 is what made me think this.

[Mathdino]

Here's what I do remember after looking over those posts: I reread my quote wall as I usually do for EBWOPs, and 140 just made me go "Holy shit, he's pushing a scum agenda there" and voted him.

Question: as scum, why would I not vote him after the huge wall of evidence I had on him? Why bring up mason-fishing and use that as a reason instead?

[Mathdino]

BMWS, I want your lynch order. I'll sacrifice myself if it turns out I'm just gonna get lynched in LyLo anyway, and if I agree on the person you're planning to lynch if I die.

Counterwagons can be a sort-of tell on the accuracy of the wagon you're on. Generally it's much easier to form wagons on town than it is on scum.

Newbie was pretty much completely inactive D2, and Wisdom and Mala kind of hijacked the entire day, so there wasn't much to push when it came to Newbie. I got pretty confident one of Wisdom/Mala was scum and that one of Constantine/Riddleton was scum; Newbie was the tertiary suspect up until the Wisdom can of worms was opened.

And in case you guys didn't notice, the above post is still insanely town, FYI. The scum is in acryon or Newbie.

[Mathdino]

I think it's a bit pseudosciency (certainly nothing to be used to blind someone)

omg

[Mathdino]

Oh, you're right, you weren't. I think I thought you were lurking because
1. Your posts had very very little content and thus I forgot about you, and
2. We post at different times.

Basically what I'm saying is the others hijacked the day.

[Mathdino]

This is boring.

Newbie, how would you feel if I self-hammered?

[Mathdino]

Acyron isn't confirmed scum. Nothing in this game is confirmed, but I guarantee you town will win by lynching the two people off the wagon and the last two people on the wagon

This is completely wrong. If I had to throw out numbers I would say when scum are on a wagon it is 25% in the beginning, 50% in the middle and 25% in the end. The absolutes you are trying to put on this game are completely wrong and are severely skewing your perspective.

Funny thing I noticed. acryon has never been on the middle of a wagon. Literally all his votes were either the 1st vote on someone, or among the last votes.

BMWS, get in here, there's nothing to do.

[Mathdino]

Still accurate, yes.

In an ideal world, Newbie and acryon would vote each other in RVS and BMWS would be the arbiter and would look through the game and make a good decision, but that doesn't look like it'll happen.

[Mathdino]

After Wisdom died, the playerlist was:

Constantine, Riddleton, wgeurts
borkjerfkin, Malakittens, Not_Mafia/Cheetory
Mathdino, BMWS, Newbie, acryon
The correct play here for scum would be to go after Constantine and Riddleton, obviously. Still no idea what was up with the Cheetory kill.

After Riddleton died, the playerlist was:

Constantine, wgeurts
borkjerfkin, Malakittens
Mathdino, BMWS, Newbie, acryon

Correct play is to go after Constantine. Malakittens was against a PL on Constantine after D2. Mala's original lynchpool was {Wisdom, BMWS, Riddleton, wgeurts} and later added acryon and Newbie. Her townreads were me and (I believe) Constantine. The below is bork's reads list:

These are my tiers from most to least likely for scum #3

Dude it's probably Riddleton

Riddleton

If that doesn't pan out look here

Constantine

Swore this dude was town for how he interacted with Wisdom today but

acryon

If we get here something is seriously wrong

wgeurts, Mathdino, BMWS

No

Newbie

Remember, scum had no idea we'd end up with wgeurts and Constantine getting modkilled. After Const's lynch it would've been me, acryon, Newbie, BMWS, and wgeurts.

bork harddefended Newbie from the first time he mentioned the Wisdom/Newbie interaction, while he essentially lined up acryon for a lynch. On the other hand, of the current alive players, I'm the only one that Mala defended while she lined up everyone else for lynch.
I think it's Newbie.
Also gut says BMWS wouldn't kill Cheetory.

[Mathdino]

From me/acryon/Newbie/BMWS/wgeurts, consider:
Newbie would be practically confirmed town from what bork said. The lynch at that point would be acryon going off of everyone's lynchpools back then.
At that point, the last lynch would be either BMWS or wgeurts.

Remember, had bork died instead of Mala, a Constantine lynch might not've happened. Keeping bork alive was the best way to ensure that occurring.

You know what, I don't have any idea where this is heading.
tl;dr The NKs don't benefit acryon at all, and I don't think BMWS would've made them.

[Mathdino]

I think flip constantine / acryon in my 'lynch them in this order' list, imo. I think constantine's just constantineing.

This is all I saw that says you did that.

Anyway, acryon's statement that he'd be all for clearing him or something back in D3 looks very townish.

All I really want right now is acryon saying he'd vote Newbie over BMWS come LyLo. At that point I'll ask BMWS to hammer me.

[Mathdino]

Precisely.

BMWS, this day is going to end with either you hammering me or helping me get acryon to vote Newbie.

It is literally not going to end in any other way.

VOTE: Newbie

[Mathdino]

If it makes you feel any better, bork, there's literally no way I as scum can win this unless I pull some super WIFOMy "leave bork alive and kill Newbie to point away from me" gambit.

[Mathdino]

459 had a sig bet, this is related...?

Anyway, yeah, I know you have to discount it.
That's exactly why I said I can't win this if I were scum.
Lynch Newbie tomorrow.

[Mathdino]

To answer the question, yes. After all, if I somehow convince you to lynch Newbie today and she flips town, I'm getting lynched tomorrow no matter what thanks to bork. The order doesn't really matter.

If anyone wants it, I can provide a towncase on acryon, but I'm pretty sure no one cares right now, lol.

BMWS, you're forgetting that Newbie is scumreading you and if she wants to survive D5 is probably going to try and get acryon to lynch you.
I doubt you're going to be the arbiter here. This isn't an ideal world.

You can hammer me once
A. acryon voices intent to vote Newbie.
B. There are no loose threads in discussion.

And Newbie, if you're town, for the love of god stop tunneling BMWS. The fact that he's town should be hitting you over the head like a goddamn anvil. Spend your time on acryon, cause no one else seems willing to.

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: A Not So Brief History Of My Read On Newbie

Newbie and Wisdom both seem town.

Newbie still seems town.

Still think Newbie and Wisdom are town.

I just realised that I completely forgot to include Newbie in my reads list. Everything on her ISO with the exception of the wagon hop to Wisdom seems townish, but what I don't get is how or why she got convinced so easily by someone she thought was scum a page prior. I could see how she might fall for the AtE self voting/unvoting stuff, but that doesn't negate everything did beforehand.

Newbie, sorry for the rampant questioning, but can you explain this more?

On a sidenote, I forgot to say this earlier, but I'm not sure what I think of Newbie's overconfidence that Wisdom isn't town (saying she'll be a top suspect if he does). On the contrary; if Wisdom is lynched and actually flips scum, I'm turning to you for bussing the guy.
Slightly leaning town on Newbie, I don't think that's gonna change until we get at least a flip.

I'll take you at your word for now because I still think you're town and I still think Wisdom's town, haha. The bussing suspicion was derived entirely from the post you linked to; the fact that you're at risk if you mislynch really just doesn't need to be said, since that's true of pretty much everyone. If Wisdom flips town, I'll still think you're town.

If you flip town? I still have my suspicions on wgeurts. I think Wisdom may have a point on there being scum in {SilverWolf, Newbie} but as I said I'm not prepared to go after Newbie without at least a flip. I'll also go over some wagon analysis, but I can't exactly do that right now.

And now, an intermission with a bonus case from wgeurts:

Ok, you first with me say you thought my unvote was suspicous without further reasons. You then post a long post using all reasons others have worked out and discussed for a while. The discussion was a few pages long and you didn't find my vote so scummy at first otherwise you would have pushed it and/or voted me. You did neither and decided to lurk, that isn't scummy in its self however one of your forst posts afterwords instantly used others reason right after discussion to jump on me.
Then the same happens with your vote on wisdom, you lurked and then suddeneley you jump on wisdom

Using arguments others were alreay discussing

. You didn't even help discuss, you just jumped, like that. Your not scum hunting, as you said you are new. A new scum I would expect to see taking their chances when they pop up and you are. There's no scum hunting on your behalf, most if your posts contain nothing new and are worthless fluff. Your trying to look town but are faking it badly like a newbie.

I also heavily suspect wisdom.

Sorry for putting you on hold Riddleton but I wanted to address some of Newbie's analysis first.

On the other hand, the way that he went after Silverwolf did feel just a bit opportunistic. Point #2 of that entire post seems like reaching if acryon was referring to SW trying to get the wagon off of herself. Also, I don't like how he shares that he heavily thinks wgeurts is town but would still be alright with him getting lynched, even though that's not something he would prefer. Looking at it from a scum perspective, it would allow acryon to be okay with a townie getting lynched while being able to fall back on "well, I did say I didn't like the idea of voting him in the first place."

Understand that even a D1 random lynch is better than a no lynch because it gains information, and a policy lynch is certainly better than NL. The lynch is the only power town has. Better use it.

SilverWolf: I can see people's points about her earlier posts mostly agreeing with other people's reasonings, but she did add a bit more her insight into things. ex. (I think she was even actually the first one to specifically mention a slayer's gambit), ex., ex., ex., ex..

On the other hand, her defense against mathdino, acryon, and Wisdom didn't come off too well. Who knows, maybe SW is just an emotional person, but it did not look good for her.

This pinged me; I can't say I'm comfortable with this part of the post. This read seems much more IIOA and summary than any sort of analysis, and really comes across to me as fencesitting. At any point you can make a stance on SilverWolf and it'd still be consistent with this post. Do you

have

a read on her, Newbie?

Here's my other issue with your post, Newbie. You're on the fence with literally almost everyone in this game, it's mostly just "this is a good point, this is a not-so-good point" but I got nothing out of reading that, not even where you stand, which defeats the purpose of reads list. Furthermore I'm not even convinced by anything you've said since you don't have a stance to really argue for. There's MORE than enough information in this game to come up with something but I'm not even sure who you'd be for or against lynching, and we're nearing deadline fast.

Here's another question, since you apparently liked the post where I asked something like this. Who are your top 2 candidates for lynching (outside of policy)? What other suspicions were you talking about here?

Addendum because I don't feel like putting it above: I have a fleeting suspicion that Newbie went with this reads list because she felt compelled to in order to be active and provide thoughts, not because it really helps scumhunt. Reading through her ISO gives me a definite feel of fencesittiness on anyone that she's not currently voting on.
Since we're nearing deadline I'm not going to push a Newbie lynch (and I still have to look over Victor) but I think this stuff should be kept in mind just in case. Very much beginning to rethink my read on her in light of Silver's meta and what people are reading off her AtE stuff.
Oh, yeah,

FoS: her

.

It's incredibly unlikely to me that Newbie and Silver's slot are both scum, thus my unFoSing.

Mala may have a point, if I'm putting on my "Victor-is-scum" glasses.

Here's an ISO of Victor and Newbie.
Note that they had 0 direct interaction, the only indirect interaction at the very start was Victor being all "Mathdino y u ask Newbie for meta". Now, Newbie didn't really do anything about that, but I can't blame her for that.

However, this is the first time Newbie references Victor. (#137) She claims she was suspicious of him in order to prove she's scumhunting to wgeurts, but this is only after the fact, and he's apparently fine in her book now.

#213, Victor agrees with Newbie. Admittedly not too major, but we're being exhaustive here.

#702, Newbie's reads list. To quote Newbie, "[Victor's] early questioning of mathdino was odd, but he had a good point." Eh, not terribly in depth but okay.

#825, BAM, Newbie is suddenly willing to lynch Victor without any explanation and while apparently townreading Victor. I said that one of Constantine's 'scumtells' (I'd prefer to call them scummy actions) is correct, and that's voting one way and reading another. Here's Newbie's votepost. No explanation.

#897, but wait, there's more! Newbie for the first time provides a reason to suspect Victor (while she's actually suspecting him)... except these reasons formulated when Victor posted after she voted. She provided a reason to keep her vote on him, but not why she voted him.

Newbie's presence on the Victor wagon is overall fairly suspicious and can very well be taken as bussing.

Lastly, Newbie admits that Victor was likely to just run up the time, but still doesn't support Mala's hammering him. She seems so certain after her votepost that Victor's scum, but also very much wanting to give him a voice in the matter.

think the scum on the wagon are in {SilverWolf/Riddleton, Constantine, Newbie}. SilverWolf due to her initial reaction to my and acryon's suspicions. Constantine due to how he's trying to use his being right today, and of how incredibly sure he was about Victor without being able to explain why. Newbie, well, I explained that in twilight and I'll explain it again once this thread calms down.

Therefore, if I had to call the scumteam, it'd be one of {Constantine, Riddleton, Wisdom}, and one of {NM, Newbie, maaaaybe Finn/bork}.

^
Yeah. That's why I'm completely confused. Nobody counterclaimed Wisdom when he showed that he understood what TTH was talking about, so I figured TTH was probably right about Wisdom as a mason. If he knew he wasn't a mason, I wonder he didn't deny it...

vote: Wisdom

Also, that hint Malakittens left during twilight completely went over my head.

Newbie confirmed town.
[...]
I'll do the PoE myself. Mala, bork, NM, confirmed town. Leaves Wisdom, BMWS, acryon, Riddleton, Constantine, Newbie, wgeurts.
wgeurts is confirmed town due to interactions. If he was scum all along I'm giving him a goddamn medal.
BMWS extremely sure town.
There's scum in {Wisdom, Constantine, Riddleton}, but like I said, it doesn't make too much sense to push a lynch away from your partner and onto another partner. That said, it's still a viable play, and I'll look over interactions tomorrow to see if we can get anything out of this.
If there's not 2 scum in the above and Wisdom flips town, Newbie is scum.
If there's STILL not 2 scum found, it's acryon.

Newbie - conftown because she unvoted Wisdom thinking he was a mason

And you guys are voting me for having been wrong. I've totally called the scum on multiple occasions, if only by PoE and pre-flip associations that no one listened to

Point is, my Newbie townread has never had a reason other than gut and the TTH interaction.
So BMWS, the answer to your question is no. There's really nothing that's made Newbie town according to D1 and D2 me.

[Mathdino]

Because BMWS is town and if it's not you, it's acryon.

I believe they came to the conclusion that I'm scummiest, and I've already placed my vote, soooo

[Mathdino]

I find acryon more likely than either Newbie or BMWS to kill Cheetory.

BMWS, I rescind the hammer request. Need to think about this.

Newbie, if you think I'm town, and if you are town, you
need
to
stop
tunneling
BMWS
now.

He is NOT scum. He wouldn't kill Cheetory. He wouldn't have gotten all confused about the TTH-Wisdom interaction. He wouldn't have opened today with a null case on acryon after saying he wanted him lynched.
You need to trust me on this.
Just stop it.

[Mathdino]

I've already commented that I don't think giving out a lynch order is good for town.

I also don't feel comfortable just blindly agreeing to lynching someone tomorrow if MD flips town. I do think there is a much greater chance that Newbie is scum than BMWS, but I also don't like the idea of locking myself into something like that, because every flip (MD, although not so much Bork since he is conf), provides information. I'm not going to speculate on what that information is, because I still think MD is likely scum, but I think we are at a point in the game where certain ideas for the future are better left closer to the chest. If scum knows exactly where my head is at, it's a lot easier to gear arguments toward or away from it. If they don't, it's a lot easier for scum to slip up trying to figure that out.

This is terrible.

1. We know who's going to be in LyLo tomorrow assuming scum don't get all cheeky and leave bork alive again. No point in not discussing it now.
2. How does my flip give you ANY info? If I'm scum, then you win. If I'm town, then you're in LyLo. Flips give nothing if there's only 1 scum left.
3. What is scum going to do knowing who you want to lynch? What are they seriously going to do? If you notice them

trying

to do anything, then you have your scum.

bork, do the same thing to me that I did to Wisdom at the end of D2. It's the smart way to progress. I'm getting lynched today. That's a given. Now reason with me as if I were town because someone's gonna have to get lynched tomorrow.

[Mathdino]

I already did. Next question.

[Mathdino]

oh for the

1. Someone's going to die tomorrow, so if we don't have a plan I'm not going down without a fight.
2. how is it
are you even
So what you're telling me is in order for you to consider the possibility of my being town, both me AND whoever gets shot have to die. You've got to be kidding me. So how are your time and resources best spent now then? Waiting around for the deadline to come and sheeping bork because you can't trust yourself? I'd rather get scum today too, acryon, but that's not going to happen unless you quit your sheeping. If you plan on lynching me today, that's going to happen. So you need to treat me like I'm dead town for the remaining 4 days until the deadline so we can talk about D4.
3. Dude, if they don't kill bork, then bork's gonna be the arbiter and scum give themselves a much lesser chance of winning. And how is the direction of their play going to do anything? 4 townies are better at discussion and scumhunting than 2 townies, and we're far better off deciding LyLo now rather than after 2 people are dead.

You have no idea how hard it was articulating how inane that post is.

[Mathdino]

holy shit
nothing else is going to happen today

The way this gap is going to be closed is with me getting hammered, acryon.

Nothing

is going to change between now and tomorrow other than 2 townies dying.

Nothing.

Scum has no one to talk to, they've had enough time to regroup and make plans, all that scum can do between now and then is the NK and they'd have to be friggin idiotic to not kill bork because if they don't, if bork uses his mind he's got a greater than 50% chance of catching them.

Yes it goddamn makes sense from my standpoint. If you were going to die would you be sticking your head in the sand?

[Mathdino]

How is there

ANY

town motivation in choosing to withhold your reads for tomorrow until after 2 of your audience members die and are rendered unable to respond to it?

[Mathdino]

How is there

ANY

town motivation in choosing to withhold your reads for tomorrow until after 2 of your audience members die and are rendered unable to respond to it?

[Mathdino]

That's all well and good.

But what changes between now and then other than 2 people dying? Is this just because you don't want to be the guy giving out his reads first? Because everything you just said applies to the beginning of tomorrow, before anyone else talks.

[Mathdino]

You have no idea how much I want to scumread you for this conversation.

I haven't seen statements this game this inane since Constantine and wgeurts's "HEY MAN ARE YOU A MASON!?!?"

So basically what I'm getting is, you're not going to talk to me about the other players for as long as you're voting me, and you're going to keep voting me as long as you're sheeping bork's argument.

For fuck's sake. Do I need to self-hammer?

[Mathdino]

His 'credibility' says jackshit about the quality of his case. Someone being confirmed town does not make them God. And if you mean his scumhunting credibility, hell, he pretty much had the exact same reads as me including the fact that the only person he was correct on was Wisdom.

acryon, how bout you sum up your current reasons for voting me? Because last I checked when it came to that conversation, the only thing you still have an issue with is the fact that I brought STD into the equation (Stack The Deck >.>) along with my 'awkwardly emotional' 1956. Everything else has yet to be explained because you basically point to bork's case and say "that guy's got it".

By not talking to me, you understand that you're writing off a potential confirmed townie's contribution to the discussion of your reads and thoughts.

[Mathdino]

You know what

Check my ISO. Throw bork's case out the window. Build your OWN case on me and let's see how that goes. Because your vote on me has 0 credibility.

[Mathdino]

Furthermore, the fact that you're letting your reasons for voting me be someone ELSE'S thoughts basically means there's nothing I can say that can stop this lynch in absence of getting bork to change his mind, and we all know that's not happening.

I'm not sure which of you is worse here. The guy who convinced himself that my play and my being wrong is scummy because he can't see anyone else being scum, or the guy who sheeps the first one.

[Mathdino]

I'd rather get scum today; I don't think that's crazy.

You're not going to 'get scum today' if you do 0 scumhunting.

Edit: whoa

Okay first of all there wasn't that much to show why you agreed with bork then other than "his case is good".

And no, you don't need to explain why he's more trustworthy. That doesn't make his arguments

better

. It just means you have no reason to scumread him for said arguments.