Silent Star 1: Lunacy

[lilith2013]

Happy scumday hectic!

VOTE: skitter speedwagon anyone?

[lilith2013]

VOTE: dunn

[lilith2013]

I don’t think “it would be a bad play” is a good reason to say someone isn’t scum. Scum don’t always play optimally.

[lilith2013]

I’m happy with my dunn vote although votato is a close second

[lilith2013]

If you want to talk about it, why don’t you ask me about it instead of snarking at me?

[lilith2013]

because being snarky is more fun.

[boringmode]why did you vote dunn over me lilith? what exactly makes you suspicious of me? why do are you both sheeping me and shading me, and how do you justify playing both sides of this page 2 shitfight?[/boringmode]

You weren’t on my radar until after I voted dunn. I don’t like that you jumped on him and then immediately backed off with “too scummy to be scum.” I don’t think I’m sheeping you, I don’t think I’m shading you, and I don’t think I’m “playing both sides.” I think you might be scum together.

How do you sleep at night with that vote in post 30?

Quite well, thanks

[lilith2013]

why vota?

I think I answered this but lmk if you want more

[lilith2013]

Dunn, if you don’t like my vote on you then why don’t you straight up ask me why I voted? Why this skirting around of trying to throw shade at me for it?

[lilith2013]

skitter I’ve never seen you this excited which is making me a biiiiiiiiit paranoid

[lilith2013]

Overzealous but NOT "wrong" persay

? What’s this in response to?

[lilith2013]

skitter I’ve never seen you this excited which is making me a biiiiiiiiit paranoid

Dunn, if you don’t like my vote on you then why don’t you straight up ask me why I voted? Why this skirting around of trying to throw shade at me for it?

Idk. Loaded question.

You were all ready to go after skitter directly but not me. Why’s that?

skitter I’ve never seen you this excited which is making me a biiiiiiiiit paranoid

Literally what I was argueing and you're now voting me for

mmmm it’s really not

[lilith2013]

I don’t think “it would be a bad play” is a good reason to say someone isn’t scum. Scum don’t always play optimally.

which is why my vote is still there. do we wanna talk about your naked vote or how you're playing both sides here?

You said he’s most likely town though. I don’t like that you’re still voting him even after you defended him.

[lilith2013]

All you did was naked vote so. And yesthat is what I was arguing, I said cheery instead though.

Skktter it's ai because It's a fake persona

You’re arguing that it’s fake, I don’t think that’s what I was trying to get at at all.

[lilith2013]

Also my “mmm it’s not” was directed at “why I’m voting you”

[lilith2013]

you’re making assumptions about why I voted you in order to bolster your argument with me

[lilith2013]

i dunno. anti-town play most often comes from town. but i suppose dunns play wasnt really anti-town. i just see that sort of bad push coming more often from overzealous town trying to get day 1 moving than from scum pushing a mislynch. if dunn is scum then im tempted to say skitter is also scum and this was a distancing play.

But why are you still voting him then?

I see your logic and even if I don’t agree with it, I can understand it - but keeping your vote on him after you’ve put forth this logic makes 0 sense

[lilith2013]

OK. Why are you voting me?

I think you're overestimating how much attention I should have been paying attention to you

Yet you paid attention to me by shading my vote and then picking a fight over what I said about skitter, so...

Exactly how much attention weren’t you paying?

[lilith2013]

OK. Why are you voting me?

Calling skitter out for “trying to push a counterwagon” and “following the momentum,” initially

Then you tried to shade my vote without actually calling me out, and you’re trying to call me hypocritical for a thing I never said.

What’s your view of votato?

[lilith2013]

i actually can see vota wk'ing dunn here

Hmmmm

and tbf i do sometimes keep an early/rvs vote on until i find something better to vote, so i don't find keeping the vote on to be that weird in this context @lilith

I don’t think that’s what’s happening here though - votato seems to be simultaneously calling dunn probtown while keeping his options open to scumread dunn. I don’t think it’s a case of “haven’t found a better vote,” he pretty explicitly said he’s still voting dunn because he could be scum.

VOTE: lilith2013

come at me

[lilith2013]

i dunno. anti-town play most often comes from town. but i suppose dunns play wasnt really anti-town. i just see that sort of bad push coming more often from overzealous town trying to get day 1 moving than from scum pushing a mislynch. if dunn is scum then im tempted to say skitter is also scum and this was a distancing play.

But why are you still voting him then?

I see your logic and even if I don’t agree with it, I can understand it - but keeping your vote on him after you’ve put forth this logic makes 0 sense

where should i move my vote? even if i think the play more likely comes from town than scum, its pressure-worthy and i dont particularly like the skitter wagon. i could vote you i guess, but i feeling you out a bit first.

Who said you had to vote someone else?

[lilith2013]

Votato is always awkward in my viewpoint henceme unvoting early

? But your vote on him was rvs....

[lilith2013]

I am waiting for someone to say hey hey back before I play >:(

Hi!!!! you remind me of some pokemon games!

[lilith2013]

You're really hanging onto that 'he shaded my vote' huh

I don’t think it comes from a town mindset to see a naked vote and not ask why. I think it can come from a scum mindset to see a naked vote and try to shade me to make my vote seem less credible, without actually asking me to expound on my vote.

I could say the same for you on the whole “fake persona” thing

[lilith2013]

I am waiting for someone to say hey hey back before I play >:(

Hi!!!! you remind me of some pokemon games!

The Radja ones or something else o:

The radja ones!

HEY! HEY! HEY! HEY! HEY! HEY! HEY! HEY! HEY! HEY! HEY! HEY!

Does that satisfy your “hey hey” cravings?

[lilith2013]

I miss Radja games he was my favorite mod =[

Same, I was really sad to see that he siteflaked

My hey heys have been satisfied.

By nature Dunnstral is a very reserved scum. I have only seen him play scum once since my return where he matched that playstyle I expected. So I want to say he is town even if his skitter push is a bit odd

I didn’t get that vibe from scum!him at all, iirc he picked a lot of fights in the one game I saw him in

[lilith2013]

Any opinions on other people?

[lilith2013]

i'm not sure i agree with that assessment of scum!dunn

is this @beeboy or me?

[lilith2013]

I didn’t get that vibe from scum!him at all, iirc he picked a lot of fights in the one game I saw him in

What game? my point of reference is MariaR's latest mini theme.

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=82986

[lilith2013]

As a principle I kind of hate meta tbh

[lilith2013]

what about me? </3

[lilith2013]

hi!!

wait, where’s SS? he’s not in this game o.O

[lilith2013]

I'll be honest I don't like reading into 1v1s themselves I've always found that to be kind of garbage but things surrounding 1v1s like the post above tend to be very alignment indicative. Scum tend to not be concerned about players outside said 1v1.

My thought on Lilith goes together with her push on Dunnstral being relatively acceptable as well

how do you weigh that against lilith kinda playing both sides in the 1v1. like i agree with your reasoning, but im still getting pings from lilith stirring stuff up on both sides of the fight.

I observed lilith sort of playing both sides -- She chimed in against both Dunn (34) and skitts (47) but I can easily see town lilith acknowledging different parts of the 1v1, it's not like you have to solely agree w/ one person. On the surface level maybe it's scummy but i didnt interpret it that way

Also did she even really do it past that point anyway? seems like you're making a big deal out of it but i mightve missed what you were referring to

votato is acting like scumreading someone means I can’t also scumread someone on the first person’s wagon. I’m not even being vague and shading people, I’ve been pretty explicit about my scumreads..

[lilith2013]

Like how does what I’ve said constitute “stirring up both sides”?

[lilith2013]

@clover I’ve explained my dunn vote elsewhere, yes it’s serious. I think I’ve since developed a further stance on votato and why I don’t like him. re:skitter I’m not saying it’s AI, I haven’t seen her be excited like this as town or scum. Not a reason to scumread her afaik

[lilith2013]

How do I say this properly...

Lilith I looked at your back and forth with Dunn and I think you're a bit tunneled/focused on him too much. Like, if Dunn is scum I doubt a lot of the reasons you're calling him scum went through his head and was an action he decided to consciously take as scum. That's just, so much early game when really it isn't needed at all.

What a strange post. You’re talking to me like you know I’m town and you’re talking about Dunn like you know he’s town and you’re trying to defend him but you’re not actually pointing out anything towny about him, it’s a very null defense.

VOTE: clover

[lilith2013]

Please wagon clover with me

[lilith2013]

VOTE: clover im ok with this

What's your reason for voting clover?

[lilith2013]

Spoiler:

In my experience from playing with midwaybear, he's always scum

Really? I played one game with you unless I know you somewhere else

I just looked over some of your games. I feel like you get into things faster as town. You start talking about something.

What were you expecting to see from her opening game post? I saw that she did that as scum too in mini 2136(talking about stuff in the game), so I don't think this meta read is correct.

skitter's vote on Dunn is fine because it was a bad push and maybe even a fake push. I do think Dunnstral was reaching with the argument, but I'm still not sure whether that makes him scum.

As the villagers erupt into offering their suggestions on who should be sent down, the bear walks over to the well.

Is this me

You weren’t on my radar until after I voted dunn. I don’t like that you jumped on him and then immediately backed off with “too scummy to be scum.”

I noticed this as well, but I didn't really think his backtrack was scummy. It just felt like he was reconsidering reads which I like.

how do you weigh that against lilith kinda playing both sides in the 1v1. like i agree with your reasoning, but im still getting pings from lilith stirring stuff up on both sides of the fight.

I bet votato is mad that beeboy townreads lilith and he's trying to get him not to.

VOTE: Dunnstral because I think he came out with a purposely bad push to make it look like TWTBAW. Him remaining so stubborn makes me feel good about this.
beeboy can be town for now(not really sure why)

What's TWTBAW?

[lilith2013]

How do I say this properly...

Lilith I looked at your back and forth with Dunn and I think you're a bit tunneled/focused on him too much. Like, if Dunn is scum I doubt a lot of the reasons you're calling him scum went through his head and was an action he decided to consciously take as scum. That's just, so much early game when really it isn't needed at all.

What a strange post. You’re talking to me like you know I’m town and you’re talking about Dunn like you know he’s town and you’re trying to defend him but you’re not actually pointing out anything towny about him, it’s a very null defense.

VOTE: clover

I mean, you're not exactly wrong but what's the problem with that? I always start my games viewing everyone as town until I see otherwise, but even besides that point I am townreading the two of you so yes I am talking about you guys like I think you're town. Plus my first point on Dunn was my defense. I don't really have much else at the moment.

How do I say this properly...

Lilith I looked at your back and forth with Dunn and I think you're a bit tunneled/focused on him too much. Like, if Dunn is scum I doubt a lot of the reasons you're calling him scum went through his head and was an action he decided to consciously take as scum. That's just, so much early game when really it isn't needed at all.

What a strange post. You’re talking to me like you know I’m town and you’re talking about Dunn like you know he’s town and you’re trying to defend him but you’re not actually pointing out anything towny about him, it’s a very null defense.

VOTE: clover

this is a weird reason to vote clover imo
like i'm not sure he's really talking to you like he thinks either you/dunn are town (also didn't he just say on the last page that he was townleaning both of you?)
and i'm also not sure that givng a 'very null defense' is a reason to vote him?

I think it's hard to articulate why this kind of defense feels so off to me - but basically I feel like this is the kind of defense I'd try to make as scum, where I'm trying to stop a wagon but I don't really give AI reasons that someone shouldn't be wagoned (maybe you remember [redacted]?). Clover's appealing to me to "tunnel less" (when I don't think I'm tunneling at all...) instead of trying to convince me why Dunnstral's town. Also I think "that's so much early game when really it isn't needed at all" is also a horrible argument for why someone wouldn't be scum, along the same lines as "that'd be a bad play as scum."

To sum up, I just feel parallels between that post and a post I would make as scum trying to derail a wagon.

How do I say this properly...

Lilith I looked at your back and forth with Dunn and I think you're a bit tunneled/focused on him too much. Like, if Dunn is scum I doubt a lot of the reasons you're calling him scum went through his head and was an action he decided to consciously take as scum. That's just, so much early game when really it isn't needed at all.

am i tunneled/focused on dunn too much?

I looked at your iso again and it seems very reasonable/open. You're talking to others and taking other angles that don't involve Dunn. I don't think you're tunneled atm.
@Midway Wah? Huh? I just like the emojis!

You keep saying I'm focusing on dunnstral but I'm really not....

I looked at your iso again and it seems very reasonable/open. You're talking to others and taking other angles that don't involve Dunn. I don't think you're tunneled atm.

i'm not sure what the difference is between me and lilith then?
lilith has definitely taken other stances too

if anything i would maybe say i'm tunneled on dunn since lilith has moved on and was open to voting votato and i've been doubling down

^^^

I looked at your iso again and it seems very reasonable/open. You're talking to others and taking other angles that don't involve Dunn. I don't think you're tunneled atm.

i'm not sure what the difference is between me and lilith then?
lilith has definitely taken other stances too

if anything i would maybe say i'm tunneled on dunn since lilith has moved on and was open to voting votato and i've been doubling down

I think the main dif that I'm running into with it is you seem very calm and rational where Lilith seems quite angry with Dunn so I can't tell if she

wants

Dunn to be scum and is just adding reasons (and I think that's the case atm) where you're a lot more calm and relaxed so I didn't get the same vibe between the 2 of you. Does that make sense?

re: "seeming quite angry" I think you'll find that's just how I react to people trying to snark at me?
What reasons do you think I'm making up to support scumreading dunnstral? and if so, why are you townreading me?

[lilith2013]

I looked at your iso again and it seems very reasonable/open. You're talking to others and taking other angles that don't involve Dunn. I don't think you're tunneled atm.

i'm not sure what the difference is between me and lilith then?
lilith has definitely taken other stances too

if anything i would maybe say i'm tunneled on dunn since lilith has moved on and was open to voting votato and i've been doubling down

I really like skitter's questioning here and currently liking her for town

[lilith2013]

How do I say this properly...

Lilith I looked at your back and forth with Dunn and I think you're a bit tunneled/focused on him too much. Like, if Dunn is scum I doubt a lot of the reasons you're calling him scum went through his head and was an action he decided to consciously take as scum. That's just, so much early game when really it isn't needed at all.

am i tunneled/focused on dunn too much?

I looked at your iso again and it seems very reasonable/open. You're talking to others and taking other angles that don't involve Dunn. I don't think you're tunneled atm.
@Midway Wah? Huh? I just like the emojis!

Clover, can you point out which skitter posts you read that included "talking to others and taking other angles that didn't involve dunn" up to this point? And then also explain why you didn't count anything I said about votato? I think I interacted with votato a similar amount and with the same "anger" or attitude or whatever you want to call it as I did with Dunn, so what was it about my interactions with votato vs my interactions with Dunn that felt different to you such that you felt like I was tunneling Dunn but not votato?

I feel like with this post and your next that you were trying to retroactively justify why you called me out and not skitter for "tunneling" dunn.

[lilith2013]

beeboy can be town for now(not really sure why)

midway, did you ever elaborate on your beeboy read and why you think he's town? has he done anything that pushes you in one direction or the other since you initially said this?

[lilith2013]

Wow, sorry I'm so late to the party guys. This game is moving fast. I don't like Beeboy's entrance at all. It seems to try and derail the momentum building on Dunn, before swinging into to defend him when he starts posting content. What's up with that? Why did you want people to say hi so much?

VOTE: Beeboy

This post feels kinda disjointed in relation to the gamestate, and I think might have been an attempt to swing attention away from the me/dunn/votato/skitter stuff going on - which I could see either as trying to derail a wagon on a buddy or like.. trying to derail the reads that the four of us were developing there.

Tux, what was your Dunn read when you posted this?

[lilith2013]

and is that really your only take away from what has been an eventful 7 pages?

did you ever explain what exactly I said that was "stirring up both sides" of the Dunn wagon?

[lilith2013]

and is that really your only take away from what has been an eventful 7 pages?

did you ever explain what exactly I said that was "stirring up both sides" of the Dunn wagon?

shading people defending dunn as well as people attacking dunn. you were fence-sitting and playing both sides.

How was I fencesitting? I clearly said I was scumreading both of you. Who did I shade that was defending dunn and who did I shade that was attacking him?

[lilith2013]

Can someone actually define what fencesitting entails, because I can't find it on the wiki and I feel like I might not actually know what it means

[lilith2013]

and is that really your only take away from what has been an eventful 7 pages?

did you ever explain what exactly I said that was "stirring up both sides" of the Dunn wagon?

shading people defending dunn as well as people attacking dunn. you were fence-sitting and playing both sides.

How was I fencesitting? I clearly said I was scumreading both of you. Who did I shade that was defending dunn and who did I shade that was attacking him?

by scumreading both of us you were able to play both sides and fence-sit. you scumread both of us. thats playing both sides. you shaded me and dunn, for instance.

Do you think my reasons to scumread both of you were invalid? I didn't think you were scummy until you jumped off the dunn wagon, so I don't really get what you mean by "both sides." By the time I said I would vote you, you were already defending dunn.

[lilith2013]

"playing both sides" would be like me scumreading both skitter and dunn, which clearly isn't happening

[lilith2013]

Okay but it's not like you and dunn were arguing about something and I said "oh I can see it from both sides," my reads were totally independent and again, I didn't scumread you until you and dunn were on the same side so I really don't get why you keep saying I'm fencesitting.

[lilith2013]

and is that really your only take away from what has been an eventful 7 pages?

did you ever explain what exactly I said that was "stirring up both sides" of the Dunn wagon?

shading people defending dunn as well as people attacking dunn. you were fence-sitting and playing both sides.

How was I fencesitting? I clearly said I was scumreading both of you. Who did I shade that was defending dunn and who did I shade that was attacking him?

by scumreading both of us you were able to play both sides and fence-sit. you scumread both of us. thats playing both sides. you shaded me and dunn, for instance.

Do you think my reasons to scumread both of you were invalid? I didn't think you were scummy until you jumped off the dunn wagon, so I don't really get what you mean by "both sides." By the time I said I would vote you, you were already defending dunn.

yeah i think they were. dunn seems pretty town, and im town. throwing that much shade at people i townread generally means either my reads are awful or you're scum. dunning-kruger says youre scum

..... I don't think that means what you think it means

[lilith2013]

This isn't a matter of you pushing me, it's me pushing you because your statement about me playing both sides doesn't make sense

[lilith2013]

I wouldn't be voting you if you were vocally scum reading Dunnstral. It's just without that step I think an already iffy case just has a clear logic error you seem to want to avoid.

yeah I think I'm here as well

[lilith2013]

beeboy if you're trying to pocket me i'm gonna be so sad

[lilith2013]

Why would I as scum derail a thread through fluff to try and save a townie.
Your accusing me of an indirect defense but saying Dunnstrals alignment doesn't matter because I could gain cred for a defense you can't see.

You're saying it's OMGUS but I am trying to engage you about the flaws in what your doing and I still feel you are talking around them :/

stop reading my mind in the future

[lilith2013]

I'm townreading beeboy pretty hard now, lol

[lilith2013]

Nahdia why do you think that post by me was scum?

VOTE: Tux

This isn't a strong vote, but the fact he's making the same kind of push as mid pointed out feels like such an odd coincidence to me that I wanna explore this a bit more.

What does this mean? How is it town-indicative for Dunn but scum-indicative for Tux?

The only thing I can think of is that you're positing that Tux saw Dunn's original push, saw that people said it was too scummy to be scum or whatever, and tried to do the same thing so that people would say the same thing about him?

[lilith2013]

How do I say this properly...

Lilith I looked at your back and forth with Dunn and I think you're a bit tunneled/focused on him too much. Like, if Dunn is scum I doubt a lot of the reasons you're calling him scum went through his head and was an action he decided to consciously take as scum. That's just, so much early game when really it isn't needed at all.

am i tunneled/focused on dunn too much?

I looked at your iso again and it seems very reasonable/open. You're talking to others and taking other angles that don't involve Dunn. I don't think you're tunneled atm.
@Midway Wah? Huh? I just like the emojis!

Clover, can you point out which skitter posts you read that included "talking to others and taking other angles that didn't involve dunn" up to this point? And then also explain why you didn't count anything I said about votato? I think I interacted with votato a similar amount and with the same "anger" or attitude or whatever you want to call it as I did with Dunn, so what was it about my interactions with votato vs my interactions with Dunn that felt different to you such that you felt like I was tunneling Dunn but not votato?

I feel like with this post and your next that you were trying to retroactively justify why you called me out and not skitter for "tunneling" dunn.

In regards to Votato to me your tone seemed quite different compared to Dunnstral or at least that's how I took it. Why I didn't say anything about Votato from you is...I can't really remember. I just know when I was looking at your iso and skitters side by side and the way you guys were both interacting with Dunnstral that it felt very different. Like:

Spoiler: Quotes here

I don’t think “it would be a bad play” is a good reason to say someone isn’t scum. Scum don’t always play optimally.

which is why my vote is still there. do we wanna talk about your naked vote or how you're playing both sides here?

You said he’s most likely town though. I don’t like that you’re still voting him even after you defended him.

All you did was naked vote so. And yesthat is what I was arguing, I said cheery instead though.

Skktter it's ai because It's a fake persona

You’re arguing that it’s fake, I don’t think that’s what I was trying to get at at all.

i dunno. anti-town play most often comes from town. but i suppose dunns play wasnt really anti-town. i just see that sort of bad push coming more often from overzealous town trying to get day 1 moving than from scum pushing a mislynch. if dunn is scum then im tempted to say skitter is also scum and this was a distancing play.

But why are you still voting him then?

I see your logic and even if I don’t agree with it, I can understand it - but keeping your vote on him after you’ve put forth this logic makes 0 sense

OK. Why are you voting me?

I think you're overestimating how much attention I should have been paying attention to you

Yet you paid attention to me by shading my vote and then picking a fight over what I said about skitter, so...

Exactly how much attention weren’t you paying?

Feel pretty night and day to me. Maybe that wasn't your intent but that was how I took it. Also, if I was trying to correct myself as scum I don't think I would've taken half measures like this, but then again I don't think I would've taken this angle to begin with but that's going down a path you probably don't care for.

Why are you hard townreading beeboy?

Yeah I've said I respond with attitude/sass whatever according to the post I'm replying to (or maybe not in so many words, but this is what I meant)

votato's post towards me seemed to be in good faith, so I gave him the courtesy of responding in kind - but when he was snarky at me, I was snarky right back.

Same goes for my interaction with Dunn, except Dunn kept being snarky to me so I kept being snarky to him.

[lilith2013]

as I was catching up on the thread, I'd have a thought and then beeboy would say my thought in his next post, which is pretty creepy but I think it's a good sign that his thought processes are town thought processes

[lilith2013]

Also I kind of think the opposite of what Tux said about him happened - beeboy dove straight into the conversation about Dunn as well as the interactions between me and votato, and tried to engage directly with us in real time. I think scum would be more likely to take more of an arms' length approach to wagons and interactions not involving them

[lilith2013]

Are you close to unvoting me yet Lilith? This is starting to get a bit stale to me! But, if the answer is no I will argue until you heart is content and I am in your town pool.
pedit: Mostly timing. Dunn did it first and yes exactly what you're saying

I'm still rereading, I'm not sure yet

[lilith2013]

im getting weird vibes

was there gonna be any followup to this

I'd also like to hear what you were getting weird vibes about and why

[lilith2013]

i think beeboy is townie
i'm having gutscumpings on nahdia rn

saaaame

[lilith2013]

This would be the play, find a hole then build a read around the hole you saw.

could you answer this please:

Why is there a 25 minute gap between your initial read and the elaboration to it without new information?

Basically what I am getting at is your retroactively justifying a read based on my thread opening.

do you think the elaboration was due to your/votato's reaction to the original post?

was kinda hoping someone would react to my first post but i guess you all just don't care about me. i see how it is.

just gonna say this from the top and maybe ill do better sticking to it: im going to be making an effort to limit the hours in which im an active participant in this game. i enjoy mafia a lot but i also find it exhausting when im constantly thinking about it which leads to apathy. please do me a big favor and yell at me if you notice im posting in the thread all throughout the day. i will be happier and honestly probably better/more engaged in this game if i can practice a little restraint.

why share this? i understand the logic of holding yourself to that but do you have an expectation of others actually discouraging you from posting throughout the day?

additionally, what sort of reactions were you hoping for?

How did the responses to these questions help you sort beeboy and nahdia (or how did you hope the responses would help with sorting them when you asked the questions)?

[lilith2013]

Hmm, I just don't know how else to express it. Like if you reread the game in context the wagon is forming on Dunn on page 1, and they aren't RVS votes. Beeboy makes an entrance on page 2, but says nothing. Doesn't even RVS vote. They post again at the end of page 3, only to reintroduce their entrance post. Content doesn't come from them till page 4. It's just so weird like he is there watching the game unfold but not commenting on anything, while the game seemed clearly passed RVS.

Besides all that.
I have town pings from MT, Lilith, and Kanna.

Votato and Nahdia aren't sitting right with me.

Weird that you still don't have a read on Dunn...

[lilith2013]

I think it's hard to articulate why this kind of defense feels so off to me - but basically I feel like this is the kind of defense I'd try to make as scum, where I'm trying to stop a wagon but I don't really give AI reasons that someone shouldn't be wagoned (maybe you remember [redacted]?). Clover's appealing to me to "tunnel less" (when I don't think I'm tunneling at all...) instead of trying to convince me why Dunnstral's town. Also I think "that's so much early game when really it isn't needed at all" is also a horrible argument for why someone wouldn't be scum, along the same lines as "that'd be a bad play as scum."

To sum up, I just feel parallels between that post and a post I would make as scum trying to derail a wagon.

Well Lilith, the thing is I am not you and what you would do as scum is probably much different than what I would do as scum. Otherwise the game would be down to a science no? Plus the whole base of your point is wrong to begin with!

? I'm using what I think I would do as scum as a frame of reference for what I expect other people to do as scum. Obviously everyone's different but I can see parallels between the motivations behind your post and what I've felt when I played scum.

What do you mean by "the whole base of my point is wrong"?

I do feel like you were tunneling on Dunnstral maybe you don’t, but those are my feelings on the matter. I already explained in my post on skitter about that. Why do you think that’s scummy though? Plus, I did explain why I think Dunnstral is towny you just didn’t like the reason/think it was AI. Of course, I could give you more reasons on why Dunnstral is towny beside his early game posts but that’d be a lie. I don’t have anything else to really base it on. I think his content is fine, but to say it’s super towny besides what I’ve said would be false.

I think that's just it - you were trying to convince me that he was town but you couldn't give me any reasons why he was town.

I think I've addressed the tunneling/tone thing in a post on this page - fairly sure I reacted with the same tone to votato at one point. How did that come across as tunneling to you?

re: "seeming quite angry" I think you'll find that's just how I react to people trying to snark at me?
What reasons do you think I'm making up to support scumreading dunnstral? and if so, why are you townreading me?

Are you trying to say that you're not angry/being sassy in return to him? Because that's how I'm taking it and normally when someone is angry they want someone to be scum so normally points that wouldn't be scummy you look at as scummy. (hence tunneling) For example:

You're really hanging onto that 'he shaded my vote' huh

I don’t think it comes from a town mindset to see a naked vote and not ask why. I think it can come from a scum mindset to see a naked vote and try to shade me to make my vote seem less credible, without actually asking me to expound on my vote.

I could say the same for you on the whole “fake persona” thing

This post for example is just trying to find scummy things that aren't really scummy to begin with imo. The naked vote thing for example happens by...just a lot of people normally. It's not really a thing and Dunnstral doing that doesn't really prove much one way or the other.

I clearly admitted that I was being sassy in return? Sure, I'll admit that I could be confbiasing but that's not at all what you said in your first post when you tried to get me to stop pushing him. However I think this might be a language barrier issue? Because the phrase "making up reasons" sounded like you were saying I was fabricating reasons, but based on this post it seems like what you actually mean is that I'm seeing everything as scummy even if it's not necessarily as scummy because of my bias.

Now then! I have a few questions for you if you don't mind. What's your read on: Nahdia/Tux if any. How do you feel about Tux vs Beeboy

should be fairly clear what my stances are on them from my catchup posts - let me know if any are unclear

[lilith2013]

clover did the thing where he assumed people were town. he's commented on other people's gamesolving, but hasnt actually done any himself. he also sheeped onto your wagon pretty opportunistically. overall theres nothing townie about the slot but a few things that strike me as off. he said he wants to "explore you" a bit more, but hasnt done anything to explore you or prod you or anything. hes just kinda floating by.

I know I've already asked this but I will again: What's wrong with assuming people are town? Let's just ignore the fact that is my playstyle and let me just ask what the issue with that is. Yes, I am assuming people I am townreading are town. Also I feel like I've been game solving plenty! Maybe not as fast paced but it would be a lie to say I'm not trying to solve

When you talked to me/about Dunn, it came across like you

knew

we were both town and were kind of slipping that you had that knowledge.

[lilith2013]

I'm mind melding with tux on his other reads and that is bothering me a lot. Outside Nahdia I think their push on me is realistic but wrong, their opening matches a 1 note DM where we agreed our old playstyle were overwelming. Neither of which make Nahdia town but they both justify what they have done.

But we both agree Kanna and MT are playing like town and we both are getting pings from Votato without overly getting a scum read. And we have similar meta pools on all 3 players. Albeit I could be giving Kanna needless space due to noughts and crosses and I may just get slapped one day because of that.

Why is it bothering you? Are you no longer scumreading Tux because his reads line up with yours?

[lilith2013]

for example, see midways above post. he agrees with my thinking, but the part of his post where he does his own evaluation is based on a post that i hardly see as AI, and is to me far less AI than other posts tux made. id scumread most people for that sort of post. but with midway, ??

Wow I might actually be townleaning votato????

[lilith2013]

@mod I really appreciate that you edit the pagetop on every page with a link to the VC on that page

[lilith2013]

Ah I'm getting flashbacks to last game. Let me grab some coffee

How so?

[lilith2013]

?

[lilith2013]

are you scumreading me seriously or is this just a shitpush

[lilith2013]

If the former - I think anyone who's played with scum!me (especially you) should recognize this is pretty far out of my scumrange. If the latter, I can pretend I'm still scumreading you if you want.

[lilith2013]

I was even using it as my frame of reference for Votato’s push on me. Although that might be a bit unfair

Can you elaborate on what this means? Was the votato in that situation scum or town?

[lilith2013]

although i would appreciate it if you at least pretend to scumread me, itll make me feel a bit better about myself.

Okay scum

[lilith2013]

Yeah, I guess I'm asking whether the push that is most similar came from town or scum?

[lilith2013]

there is only one votato!

errrr I meant more like "was the person who represents votato in that scenario town or scum"

[lilith2013]

So are you townreading votato?

[lilith2013]

If the former - I think anyone who's played with scum!me (especially you) should recognize this is pretty far out of my scumrange. If the latter, I can pretend I'm still scumreading you if you want.

This kind of comment always feels townie to me, but i just looked through your scumgame (guns and roses iv) and errrr...i disagree. maybe i'm paranoid. i think you seem "townie" based on your fearlessness, but that's a playstyle. why do you say you're out of your scumrange?

I can’t fake gamesolving on a macro level, basically. Have you read any of my other games?

[lilith2013]

VOTE: raven

[lilith2013]

^lack of coherent thought process. Raven’s posts feel even more disassociated from the gamestate than tux’s were.

[lilith2013]

What has drusilla posted that pinged you as town?

[lilith2013]

This would be the play, find a hole then build a read around the hole you saw.

could you answer this please:

Why is there a 25 minute gap between your initial read and the elaboration to it without new information?

Basically what I am getting at is your retroactively justifying a read based on my thread opening.

do you think the elaboration was due to your/votato's reaction to the original post?

was kinda hoping someone would react to my first post but i guess you all just don't care about me. i see how it is.

just gonna say this from the top and maybe ill do better sticking to it: im going to be making an effort to limit the hours in which im an active participant in this game. i enjoy mafia a lot but i also find it exhausting when im constantly thinking about it which leads to apathy. please do me a big favor and yell at me if you notice im posting in the thread all throughout the day. i will be happier and honestly probably better/more engaged in this game if i can practice a little restraint.

why share this? i understand the logic of holding yourself to that but do you have an expectation of others actually discouraging you from posting throughout the day?

additionally, what sort of reactions were you hoping for?

How did the responses to these questions help you sort beeboy and nahdia (or how did you hope the responses would help with sorting them when you asked the questions)?

@skitter this was kind of a weird post to me because I felt the opposite of that here - like I’m not sure how these questions would help her discover beeboy’s or nahdia’s alignments

[lilith2013]

I guess there might have been some underlying thread that she just hasn’t explained yet but I’d like to hear what that is

[lilith2013]

This feels like her method to shade/vote whoever she wants.

I'm not seeing any anger in her posts. She doesn't feel snarky - she's slimy, she seems to h ave an agenda to push

she has more 'heft' here than i've seen from her in recent scumgames
there's an over-arcing thought process that follows/flows from post to post that i dont' think she's fully capable of faking as scum

and to elaborate on what i said before:
i think this push is bad but kinda unlikely to come from scum since lilith is a fairly popular townread and it's a strange place to push here when there's multiple easy/more lynchbaity options
and i think scum!you would maybe back off if beeboy is telling you he thinks she's town, and you're doublilng down

Haven’t read the original posts yet but I agree it’s a really weird thing to start pushing me here instead of any other already-existing wagon

[lilith2013]

Skitter, any thoughts on raven?

[lilith2013]

Idk if it’s really as easy as raven/nahdia but that’s kind of where I’m at

[lilith2013]

Yeah I feel you - I’m not gonna argue that you’re wrong, I just want to see for myself what that thread was before I’m prepared to agree on that read

[lilith2013]

I’d rather be voting raven for pressure since I feel like nahdia is already getting a decent amount of pressure from you, but if it came time to vote for execution, I’d definitely be on the nahdia wagon

[lilith2013]

Sounds good

[lilith2013]

So are you townreading votato?

No no, what I'm saying is a referenced a town case against me to try and see if I got similar feelings to this game and I haven't got that. So, I then looked at his points themselves and I didn't really think they came from good faith

Can you explain more? What made you think his arguments weren’t made in good faith, and do you see a difference between my points and his? (iirc a lot of the points he made are along the same lines as mine)

[lilith2013]

I really want that

[lilith2013]

pagetop

[lilith2013]

tux is town. lilith is town? kanna is a bit townie based on first impression. but again, need a lot more content. morning is townish, but need a bit more. im less confident in morning being town than most games. could be the gamblers fallacy making me skeptical, or maybe its something else. but town for now. skitter gives me townvibes, but need to see more content. beeboy gives early townvibes? but has been strange. its page 13, so thats about all youre gonna get. that leaves a PoE of
{clover, midway, nahdia, raven, drusilla}. midway im not willing to lynch at this stage, but mostly because hes LHF and will probably be obvscum later on if scum. im happy leaving my vote on clover pending content from the other slots.

Three of your possible PoE could also be argued as LHF, two of which haven’t posted much content. Why is your focus more on posters with less content than more active posters?

This is pinging me a bit. It reads like, if I can’t push Clover, i’ll shift my focus to the lower content posters, which in general is something scum tends to do more than town.

By definition POE will include people who haven’t been sorted yet because they haven’t posted enough. Why do you have an issue with votato not having a townread on people who haven’t posted a lot? I think that’s a completely fair stance to take.

[lilith2013]

Also it’s a really weird conclusion to draw that votato is focusing on any of the low-content posters because he basically didn’t mention them other than in his poe list.

[lilith2013]

Also I feel like you are just lacking a certain level of aggro compared to the rest of the playerlist. If this is the style of game you like I think your reasoning and pushes should be more like leading the charge yourself I guess? I am not basing this on meta and more just your comment on the game relative to how your playing. Like to put it the best I can I think your adding on to what is going on / analyzing the field. While i feel like you implied you like the more leadership approach people are taking to the game.


I am not voting you because I am not sure I have enough yet but that is what is going through my head.

I do not really understand this quote from beeboy, but maybe his way of scumhunting is too bigbrain for me.

I’m with skitter on this one - nahdia didn’t seem to react to tux at all, only to beeboy’s reaction to tux, which links back to my hypothesis of scum being more at arms’ length from interactions

[lilith2013]

I do not really get the votes on nahdia right now btw. The stance on beeboy's frustration with tux was fine to me. I can sorta see what they mean by that, but I still think beeboy is overall more townie. I don't really see why scum would try to paint it as a 1v1 especially if there wasn't a lot of momentum at the time.

Sorry I had two quotes up in separate tabs and I typed my answer in the tab with the wrong quote what I just said be in response to the quote above.

Repasted for convenience:
I’m with skitter on this one - nahdia didn’t seem to react to tux at all, only to beeboy’s reaction to tux, which links back to my hypothesis of scum being more at arms’ length from interactions

[lilith2013]

Sorry I had two quotes up in separate tabs and I typed my answer in the tab with the wrong quote what I just said

should

be in response to the quote above.

Apparently I’m a pirate now. Ebwop

[lilith2013]

Also I feel like you are just lacking a certain level of aggro compared to the rest of the playerlist. If this is the style of game you like I think your reasoning and pushes should be more like leading the charge yourself I guess? I am not basing this on meta and more just your comment on the game relative to how your playing. Like to put it the best I can I think your adding on to what is going on / analyzing the field. While i feel like you implied you like the more leadership approach people are taking to the game.


I am not voting you because I am not sure I have enough yet but that is what is going through my head.

I do not really understand this quote from beeboy, but maybe his way of scumhunting is too bigbrain for me.

@midway: Beeboy was following up on an inconsistency between votato’s expressed feelings about the game and his actual play, and I’m always on board with following up on inconsistencies. What did you think beeboy’s post meant/what the intentions were behind it and did you think this post was scum-motivated?

[lilith2013]

Hm i mostly agree with this. It feels like a lot of players this game have similar reads, with maybe Clover and votato being the most controversial ? Both are some of my more liked townreads

Leantown on Tux. Votato, Dunn, and Clover i'm inclined to think are town as well. I have lilith there too but i forget exactly why.

Skitts gave me townvibes in our previous game enough to hold me off of her wagon when it really should've been obvious :X She has a handicap where i set her a bit down in my reads on purpose cause i think regardless of alignment she's going to trick me at least once or twice

Beeboy I mostly recall fluffposting as well as engaging with Tuxes scumread which i agree wasn't well founded, however, i think it's not inherently towny to think that since it felt pretty clear. Oh I do lightly like 296 though since he's fair to both Tux and Nahdia

i don't know anything about midway's scumgame but i am a bit wary of lynching them early as well based off my previous game with him

Any scumreads, MT? /what’s your current POE?

[lilith2013]

? I think nahdia is scummy

[lilith2013]

For your convenience, I have consolidated all my outstanding questions in one post!

Spoiler: @midway

beeboy can be town for now(not really sure why)

midway, did you ever elaborate on your beeboy read and why you think he's town? has he done anything that pushes you in one direction or the other since you initially said this?

I do not really get the votes on nahdia right now btw. The stance on beeboy's frustration with tux was fine to me. I can sorta see what they mean by that, but I still think beeboy is overall more townie. I don't really see why scum would try to paint it as a 1v1 especially if there wasn't a lot of momentum at the time.

Sorry I had two quotes up in separate tabs and I typed my answer in the tab with the wrong quote what I just said be in response to the quote above.

Repasted for convenience:
I’m with skitter on this one - nahdia didn’t seem to react to tux at all, only to beeboy’s reaction to tux, which links back to my hypothesis of scum being more at arms’ length from interactions

Also I feel like you are just lacking a certain level of aggro compared to the rest of the playerlist. If this is the style of game you like I think your reasoning and pushes should be more like leading the charge yourself I guess? I am not basing this on meta and more just your comment on the game relative to how your playing. Like to put it the best I can I think your adding on to what is going on / analyzing the field. While i feel like you implied you like the more leadership approach people are taking to the game.


I am not voting you because I am not sure I have enough yet but that is what is going through my head.

I do not really understand this quote from beeboy, but maybe his way of scumhunting is too bigbrain for me.

@midway: Beeboy was following up on an inconsistency between votato’s expressed feelings about the game and his actual play, and I’m always on board with following up on inconsistencies. What did you think beeboy’s post meant/what the intentions were behind it and did you think this post was scum-motivated?

Spoiler: @Tux

Wow, sorry I'm so late to the party guys. This game is moving fast. I don't like Beeboy's entrance at all. It seems to try and derail the momentum building on Dunn, before swinging into to defend him when he starts posting content. What's up with that? Why did you want people to say hi so much?

VOTE: Beeboy

This post feels kinda disjointed in relation to the gamestate, and I think might have been an attempt to swing attention away from the me/dunn/votato/skitter stuff going on - which I could see either as trying to derail a wagon on a buddy or like.. trying to derail the reads that the four of us were developing there.

Tux, what was your Dunn read when you posted this?

Hmm, I just don't know how else to express it. Like if you reread the game in context the wagon is forming on Dunn on page 1, and they aren't RVS votes. Beeboy makes an entrance on page 2, but says nothing. Doesn't even RVS vote. They post again at the end of page 3, only to reintroduce their entrance post. Content doesn't come from them till page 4. It's just so weird like he is there watching the game unfold but not commenting on anything, while the game seemed clearly passed RVS.

Besides all that.
I have town pings from MT, Lilith, and Kanna.

Votato and Nahdia aren't sitting right with me.

Weird that you still don't have a read on Dunn...

Spoiler: @drusilla

This would be the play, find a hole then build a read around the hole you saw.

could you answer this please:

Why is there a 25 minute gap between your initial read and the elaboration to it without new information?

Basically what I am getting at is your retroactively justifying a read based on my thread opening.

do you think the elaboration was due to your/votato's reaction to the original post?

was kinda hoping someone would react to my first post but i guess you all just don't care about me. i see how it is.

just gonna say this from the top and maybe ill do better sticking to it: im going to be making an effort to limit the hours in which im an active participant in this game. i enjoy mafia a lot but i also find it exhausting when im constantly thinking about it which leads to apathy. please do me a big favor and yell at me if you notice im posting in the thread all throughout the day. i will be happier and honestly probably better/more engaged in this game if i can practice a little restraint.

why share this? i understand the logic of holding yourself to that but do you have an expectation of others actually discouraging you from posting throughout the day?

additionally, what sort of reactions were you hoping for?

How did the responses to these questions help you sort beeboy and nahdia (or how did you hope the responses would help with sorting them when you asked the questions)?

Spoiler: @beeboy

I'm mind melding with tux on his other reads and that is bothering me a lot. Outside Nahdia I think their push on me is realistic but wrong, their opening matches a 1 note DM where we agreed our old playstyle were overwelming. Neither of which make Nahdia town but they both justify what they have done.

But we both agree Kanna and MT are playing like town and we both are getting pings from Votato without overly getting a scum read. And we have similar meta pools on all 3 players. Albeit I could be giving Kanna needless space due to noughts and crosses and I may just get slapped one day because of that.

Why is it bothering you? Are you no longer scumreading Tux because his reads line up with yours?

Spoiler: @Clover

So are you townreading votato?

No no, what I'm saying is a referenced a town case against me to try and see if I got similar feelings to this game and I haven't got that. So, I then looked at his points themselves and I didn't really think they came from good faith

Can you explain more? What made you think his arguments weren’t made in good faith, and do you see a difference between my points and his? (iirc a lot of the points he made are along the same lines as mine)

Spoiler: @Raven

tux is town. lilith is town? kanna is a bit townie based on first impression. but again, need a lot more content. morning is townish, but need a bit more. im less confident in morning being town than most games. could be the gamblers fallacy making me skeptical, or maybe its something else. but town for now. skitter gives me townvibes, but need to see more content. beeboy gives early townvibes? but has been strange. its page 13, so thats about all youre gonna get. that leaves a PoE of
{clover, midway, nahdia, raven, drusilla}. midway im not willing to lynch at this stage, but mostly because hes LHF and will probably be obvscum later on if scum. im happy leaving my vote on clover pending content from the other slots.

Three of your possible PoE could also be argued as LHF, two of which haven’t posted much content. Why is your focus more on posters with less content than more active posters?

This is pinging me a bit. It reads like, if I can’t push Clover, i’ll shift my focus to the lower content posters, which in general is something scum tends to do more than town.

By definition POE will include people who haven’t been sorted yet because they haven’t posted enough. Why do you have an issue with votato not having a townread on people who haven’t posted a lot? I think that’s a completely fair stance to take.

Also it’s a really weird conclusion to draw that votato is focusing on any of the low-content posters because he basically didn’t mention them other than in his poe list.

Spoiler: @MT

Hm i mostly agree with this. It feels like a lot of players this game have similar reads, with maybe Clover and votato being the most controversial ? Both are some of my more liked townreads

Leantown on Tux. Votato, Dunn, and Clover i'm inclined to think are town as well. I have lilith there too but i forget exactly why.

Skitts gave me townvibes in our previous game enough to hold me off of her wagon when it really should've been obvious :X She has a handicap where i set her a bit down in my reads on purpose cause i think regardless of alignment she's going to trick me at least once or twice

Beeboy I mostly recall fluffposting as well as engaging with Tuxes scumread which i agree wasn't well founded, however, i think it's not inherently towny to think that since it felt pretty clear. Oh I do lightly like 296 though since he's fair to both Tux and Nahdia

i don't know anything about midway's scumgame but i am a bit wary of lynching them early as well based off my previous game with him

Any scumreads, MT? /what’s your current POE?

[lilith2013]

Sorry i agree with you that raven is a better wagon

Do you wanna vote raven then?

[lilith2013]

Did you have any read on Tux from the Tux v beeboy thing?

[lilith2013]

@nahdia see this post:

I do not really get the votes on nahdia right now btw. The stance on beeboy's frustration with tux was fine to me. I can sorta see what they mean by that, but I still think beeboy is overall more townie. I don't really see why scum would try to paint it as a 1v1 especially if there wasn't a lot of momentum at the time.

Sorry I had two quotes up in separate tabs and I typed my answer in the tab with the wrong quote what I just said be in response to the quote above.

Repasted for convenience:
I’m with skitter on this one - nahdia didn’t seem to react to tux at all, only to beeboy’s reaction to tux, which links back to my hypothesis of scum being more at arms’ length from interactions

It felt like maybe the reason you jumped in with a comment on beeboy instead of tux was that you were uncomfortable with engaging with tux’s posts directly. Which goes along the same lines as the “arms’ length interactions” I’ve been talking about.

I didn’t see that you had mentioned a reaction to Tux so I’m gonna reread your ISO and get back to you

[lilith2013]

Where did raven say they were having a hard time getting into the game?

[lilith2013]

Imo raven saying “The more I read, the more confused I am” feels more like a performative “poor me” than like, a reachout for someone to help get her engaged

[lilith2013]

Raven's posts don't seem to have a coherent thought process behind them, the statements in the posts are disjointed, and her points also feel very distant from the gamestate, like she's avoiding talking about the biggest events of the game (ie skitter vs dunn, tux vs beeboy).

Her reaction to being in votato's POE was really weird - she assumed votato was focusing on "LHF" (including her) when I disagree with that entirely, which I think could indicate feeling nervous about being in POEs/being pressured; and she also shaded votato for this and like, ascribed scum motivations to votato's post that I don't see at all.

Also she seems to say "I don't understand X" or "I'm confused about Y" a

lot

which comes off as like.. an excuse to not provide more substantive content (see: performative "poor me")

[lilith2013]

low hanging fruit

[lilith2013]

Link to VC on this page.

I mean, I feel like I've developed decent reads on everyone who I've interacted with, so who's left? people who I haven't talked to, which is pretty much equivalent to low-content

[lilith2013]

I feel like that mischaracterizes my play entirely, it's not like I came out of the gate pushing low-content people, I've only come to this point after POE

[lilith2013]

that was @nahdia

[lilith2013]

beeboy and midway, can you answer my questions to you? I helpfully consolidated everything into 512

[lilith2013]

i dont know how one reads Raven' posts as disconnected when they all seem to follow a very clear progression. like, she's devoid of content, yes, but it's all rather consistent content. she outs a few scattered thoughts as the game progresses, but there are two consistent arcs:
her confusion on how to read me

Already mentioned that I think her confusion comes off as performative

and her read on votato, which she updates as she goes.

And I don't think the votato read/progression is a valid one. 467 is like, leading up to scumreading both votato and you. She agrees with your push on votato but questions it at the same time.

I mean, I feel like I've developed decent reads on everyone who I've interacted with, so who's left? people who I haven't talked to, which is pretty much equivalent to low-content

so you're townreading everyone you've interacted with?

No - what I mean is that I feel like the people who I still need more content from to sort are mostly in the low-content end of the playerlist. Also I feel like I've followed up with most of those people in one way or another (see 512 - this includes drusilla, MT, raven, and midway)

[lilith2013]

I'm mind melding with tux on his other reads and that is bothering me a lot. Outside Nahdia I think their push on me is realistic but wrong, their opening matches a 1 note DM where we agreed our old playstyle were overwelming. Neither of which make Nahdia town but they both justify what they have done.

But we both agree Kanna and MT are playing like town and we both are getting pings from Votato without overly getting a scum read. And we have similar meta pools on all 3 players. Albeit I could be giving Kanna needless space due to noughts and crosses and I may just get slapped one day because of that.

Why is it bothering you? Are you no longer scumreading Tux because his reads line up with yours?

It's not that simple. I feel like the self doubt he expressed was making me think he could just be having a rough time with bad reads. It's not the first time I've been tunneled by town for bad reasons.

I don't think he is town yet but I am moving towards being unsure because I am getting pings elsewhere from Votato and Drusilla

What pinged you about votato? was it just the incongruency between him saying he was excited for the game and then not really taking much of a lead on pushing people?

[lilith2013]

Idk if it’s really as easy as raven/nahdia but that’s kind of where I’m at

which is it. do you need more content from our slots, or do you think we're scum?

VOTE: lilith

.... can’t it be both?

[lilith2013]

@Dunn, what makes you think Skitter’s posting is “fake”?
I don’t understand Nadhia at all.

@Votato, what is so scummy about Clover not having any confident scumreads early on D1?

these 3 lines are about completely separate things - so I don't see a coherent thought process behind this post.

[lilith2013]

The more I read from this game, the more confused I get. I’m liking Votato a bit better now but I still don’t understand why Clover is his #1 scumread.

I have 0 experience with Lillith but nothing she’s posting is particularly pinging me.

Anyone here have meta on Nadhia? I’m having the most trouble trying to parse her.

@Dunn, can you please answer my Skitter question? Thanks.

And thanks @mod for preventing me from undue eyestrain.

Also these

[lilith2013]

Nahdia, I'm arguing that each of her posts, taken individually, doesn't make sense to me and I don't understand how she comes up with a post with this many different things going on that don't seem to be connected.

[lilith2013]

What pinged you about votato? was it just the incongruency between him saying he was excited for the game and then not really taking much of a lead on pushing people?

His town bloc pushes with both MT and Tux were very bizzare to me. Had a slimy mix of being both tactical and presented as for fun.

I just don't think it was accomplishing anything outside giving himself a safety net given he isn't working that close to either Tux or MT. Not to mention Tux was getting pinged by Votato so it doubles as a "please back off"

You don't see me appeasing to Nahdia because we are friends,I am just playing it out.

Okay, thanks

[lilith2013]

Am I missing out on why Kanna is townread cause I'd love to be clued in.

I think her takes have been somewhat similar to MT's, and most people seem to be townreading MT so I guess they also townread Kanna by association? But I don't really think I'm there on either of them yet.

I think it's hard to gauge Ravens 466 without knowing exactly where she was during the catch up. Being disconnected/having a dif viewpoint isn't scummy it's how you present it that should be what you're looking at.

Sure, that's why I'm pressuring her so I can see if the disconnect I feel is in fact AI.

[lilith2013]

Clover you feel fairly town to me by play but the amount of townreading you do is kind of alarming. I know you said your playstyle is to find townreads but you don't seem to be considering that people could be scum at all? and that's concerning.

[lilith2013]

Spoiler: When you last posted on page 13 and see the game is at page 24

Actually thinking about that now, those were both related to special setup mechanics. Maybe the setup not having special mechanics is changing how he opens -- Obviously that doesn't change how he did stand out as townie in those games but it makes me wonder

We can talk set up if you'd like. The only thing that comes to mind is I've never played a game with potential bastard mechanics and I don't know what that entails.

why is everyone afraid to lynch me because of my town meta? I just want to be townie for once

I town read this sentiment, asking to be lynched or town read just feels like something that wouldn't come from scum. @Midwaybear have you played scum before?

i think i'm here right now

<Morning Tweet, Tuxedo Mask, votato>
<beeboy, Dunnstral>
<Clover Ebi, midwaybear>

<skitter30, lilith2013, Raven Branwen, Nahdia, drusilla> -- POE

I assume this goes from town to scum? Could you elaborate on these reads, please? Have you sorted anyone else from your POE?

Wow, sorry I'm so late to the party guys. This game is moving fast. I don't like Beeboy's entrance at all. It seems to try and derail the momentum building on Dunn, before swinging into to defend him when he starts posting content. What's up with that? Why did you want people to say hi so much?

VOTE: Beeboy

This post feels kinda disjointed in relation to the gamestate, and I think might have been an attempt to swing attention away from the me/dunn/votato/skitter stuff going on - which I could see either as trying to derail a wagon on a buddy or like.. trying to derail the reads that the four of us were developing there.

Tux, what was your Dunn read when you posted this?

If I was to rank the initial situation from town to scum it would go Lilith, Skitter, Votato, and Dunn. I understood the wagon but didn't have that strong of a ping from anyone except you.

Derailing the current discussion with a weird entrance? That's what I said Beeboy was doing. Do scum me would do that, accuse someone of doing something as I was doing it?

im super skeptical of lilith, but at the same time pushing tux at this point feels really out there to do as scum?

I don't feel this way, they were catching up and someone had asked their thoughts about it specifically.

Also I kind of think the opposite of what Tux said about him happened - beeboy dove straight into the conversation about Dunn as well as the interactions between me and votato, and tried to engage directly with us in real time. I think scum would be more likely to take more of an arms' length approach to wagons and interactions not involving them

Could you elaborate on what you mean here?
I feel they did talk about the situation at hand, but I think it's pretty observably untrue that they "dove straight into the conversation". Their first post was page 2 and they didn't comment till page 4.

Hmm, I just don't know how else to express it. Like if you reread the game in context the wagon is forming on Dunn on page 1, and they aren't RVS votes. Beeboy makes an entrance on page 2, but says nothing. Doesn't even RVS vote. They post again at the end of page 3, only to reintroduce their entrance post. Content doesn't come from them till page 4. It's just so weird like he is there watching the game unfold but not commenting on anything, while the game seemed clearly passed RVS.

Besides all that.
I have town pings from MT, Lilith, and Kanna.

Votato and Nahdia aren't sitting right with me.

Weird that you still don't have a read on Dunn...

I don't feel strongly about them. I've played with scum Dunn before, they replaced scum you in that game actually, and it was very different from here. But also like the whole context of that game feels inapplicable here.

The more I read from this game, the more confused I get.

What is confusing you about this game?

VOTE: raven

Bleh, I don't like this post. It seemed you were building up to a scum read on me in your catch up. Where did it go? Was it just because in your catch you saw that people weren't pushing me anymore?
VOTE: Lilith

Idk if it’s really as easy as raven/nahdia but that’s kind of where I’m at

Can you elaborate on this? Something about it feels very off.

I think Drusilla is asking questions that I don't believe are particularly helpful for them solving people and I don't really understand the story they are trying to tell within their posts.

Do you think town players form stories? Are there specific questions you find unhelpful?

I actually feel weird about how my wagon collapsed.

Also VOTE: Lilith, the real vote is in the spoilers. So this is for Heccy boy.

Wow this whole post is yikes

At any given time, I've had like 5 threads of thought going at the same time - me pursuing a different thread of thought just reflects who is posting additional content for me to add to that particular thread. I put down my thread of thought about you and then couldn't really do anything more about it because you didn't post any more after that? My main point about you was that I expected you to have some read on Dunn when you accused beeboy of derailing Dunn's wagon. Now that you've answered that you still don't have a read on him, I can pursue that thread further, and yeah maybe that results in a scumread, but I don't really know before I get that info (which at the time, I didn't have). Can you explain what you think I should have done instead when I didn't have enough information to feel like I could scumread you?

I'm always going to put my vote where I feel it's best used at the time - so me voting raven means that at that time, because of her most recent post, I felt that was the best thread for me to pursue out of the threads I had going. Based on the responses I get from the questions I put out, that could change and then I would change my vote, but without getting more information to build on each thread (which I was in the process of doing), I can't develop my reads further. I'm pursuing whatever information does come up but if I don't get more info I don't really have anything to pursue..

[lilith2013]

and is that really your only take away from what has been an eventful 7 pages?

did you ever explain what exactly I said that was "stirring up both sides" of the Dunn wagon?

shading people defending dunn as well as people attacking dunn. you were fence-sitting and playing both sides.

I need to re-ISO her, I see a few people as having done that. Maybe she just expresses it more cohesively than Nahdia?

? What does this mean, do you think nahdia was fencesitting?

[lilith2013]

How did the responses to these questions help you sort beeboy and nahdia (or how did you hope the responses would help with sorting them when you asked the questions)?

beeboy's response kinda helped me to see it from his perspective. or at least it feels consistent with his reaction. it is still hard for me to see that exchange as tuxedo mask making a read and then spending 25 minutes justifying it as opposed to elaborating on it due to reactions. i guess i was hoping for nahdia to explain why they made the original post because it seemed like an expectation they wouldn't actually have of other players so it seemed more likely to me that it was to preemptively explain possible observable differences in play. when they said that they were hoping someone would react to it i noted that it is strange that someone looking for reactions to their post would have missed my reaction, as well as the possibility that they had some way of gauging reactions to it, so i asked what reactions they were hoping for as well. from nahdia's response it seemed like they hadn't really thought about it but i didn't know what to make of that.

Cool, thanks.

[lilith2013]

do we have a different definition of LHF or something? what i mean is like, she's pushing the same people she says she needs more content on as scum. the reads feel "easy".

i mean she also explained why she's scumreading her, it's not like she's just going like 'meh skitter isn't here so i'll vote her' or something

i guess. my feeling was just that like, raven and i have both been fairly low impact posters thus far. so it's "easiest" to scumread us because we're not likely to hit back hard.

tux is town. lilith is town? kanna is a bit townie based on first impression. but again, need a lot more content. morning is townish, but need a bit more. im less confident in morning being town than most games. could be the gamblers fallacy making me skeptical, or maybe its something else. but town for now. skitter gives me townvibes, but need to see more content. beeboy gives early townvibes? but has been strange. its page 13, so thats about all youre gonna get.

that leaves a PoE of
{clover, midway, nahdia, raven, drusilla}

. midway im not willing to lynch at this stage, but mostly because hes LHF and will probably be obvscum later on if scum. im happy leaving my vote on clover pending content from the other slots.

This is why I’m voting votato. This post has never sat right with me and it strengthens my Clover tl as well because it was only after I posted that I thought they were unalligned that he switched his vote to me. Clover unlike votato didn’t react suspiciously to that.

Can you explain why you think 321 is focusing on low hanging fruit? I just really disagree with that statement, like all votato was doing was stating that he didn't have townreads on those people and therefore they were in his POE, and (same as me) that naturally happens to include lower content people because he wasn't able to sort them yet due to low content. The way I read it, he wasn't saying that anyone was scummy for being low content, just that he didn't have townreads on them.

i mean i never said my clover scumread was that strong. but its still the strongest scumread i have? i mean clover has a point, but i dont think clover's scumread on me is any better. i think everyone is kinda waiting for scum to appear and reveal themselves, which for some reason they dont seem to want to do.

Well D1 is hard because it’s only when you get flips that you can really get good reads.

I would say that I think it’s extremely unlikely that you and Clover are aligned, so if either one of you flips scum, the other one is very likely to be town.

Is this truly a coincidence, that he switches his vote to me right after this post?

Can you quote the posts where that happened? You keep saying "it was only after I said they're not aligned with Clover that votato voted me" but the vote came way later - As far as I can tell, his vote on you was 120 posts after this.. You're ascribing a cause and effect here that, again, I just totally disagree with

[lilith2013]

Hi Starbuck! Welcome!

[lilith2013]

vla until july 21st

(I’m really fucked at work for the next two to three weeks, just wanna pre-empt any lags in activity from me. I’ll still be active and post as much as I can, but there might be days where I can literally only work and sleep)

[lilith2013]

do we have a different definition of LHF or something? what i mean is like, she's pushing the same people she says she needs more content on as scum. the reads feel "easy".

i mean she also explained why she's scumreading her, it's not like she's just going like 'meh skitter isn't here so i'll vote her' or something

i guess. my feeling was just that like, raven and i have both been fairly low impact posters thus far. so it's "easiest" to scumread us because we're not likely to hit back hard.

tux is town. lilith is town? kanna is a bit townie based on first impression. but again, need a lot more content. morning is townish, but need a bit more. im less confident in morning being town than most games. could be the gamblers fallacy making me skeptical, or maybe its something else. but town for now. skitter gives me townvibes, but need to see more content. beeboy gives early townvibes? but has been strange. its page 13, so thats about all youre gonna get.

that leaves a PoE of
{clover, midway, nahdia, raven, drusilla}

. midway im not willing to lynch at this stage, but mostly because hes LHF and will probably be obvscum later on if scum. im happy leaving my vote on clover pending content from the other slots.

This is why I’m voting votato. This post has never sat right with me and it strengthens my Clover tl as well because it was only after I posted that I thought they were unalligned that he switched his vote to me. Clover unlike votato didn’t react suspiciously to that.

Can you explain why you think 321 is focusing on low hanging fruit? I just really disagree with that statement, like all votato was doing was stating that he didn't have townreads on those people and therefore they were in his POE, and (same as me) that naturally happens to include lower content people because he wasn't able to sort them yet due to low content. The way I read it, he wasn't saying that anyone was scummy for being low content, just that he didn't have townreads on them.

i mean i never said my clover scumread was that strong. but its still the strongest scumread i have? i mean clover has a point, but i dont think clover's scumread on me is any better. i think everyone is kinda waiting for scum to appear and reveal themselves, which for some reason they dont seem to want to do.

Well D1 is hard because it’s only when you get flips that you can really get good reads.

I would say that I think it’s extremely unlikely that you and Clover are aligned, so if either one of you flips scum, the other one is very likely to be town.

Is this truly a coincidence, that he switches his vote to me right after this post?

Can you quote the posts where that happened? You keep saying "it was only after I said they're not aligned with Clover that votato voted me" but the vote came way later - As far as I can tell, his vote on you was 120 posts after this.. You're ascribing a cause and effect here that, again, I just totally disagree with

Raven, can you respond to this please

[lilith2013]

and is that really your only take away from what has been an eventful 7 pages?

did you ever explain what exactly I said that was "stirring up both sides" of the Dunn wagon?

shading people defending dunn as well as people attacking dunn. you were fence-sitting and playing both sides.

I need to re-ISO her, I see a few people as having done that. Maybe she just expresses it more cohesively than Nahdia?

? What does this mean, do you think nahdia was fencesitting?

@Raven also this one

[lilith2013]

Spoiler:

Yes because her tone seems genuine to me, what’s wrong with that? Is she? It reads more than she’s concerned about us both being LHFs in this game. Do you disagree that either of us would be easy pushes to make?

- it's more the fact that you keep making a Big Deal over the fact that you don't know how to read them and that you're making a point of making this known. it feels kinda fake.
- I dont' think they're lhf
- you might be (@nahdia in a vacuum i think raven might be lhf but i don't think lilith is approaching it from that angle)

Yes, I have been talking about it a lot which Nahdia mentioned as well and my response to you is the same as what I posted to her. I don’t see why you think that’s “fake” though.

My two cents: when you talked about nahdia, there was no actual analysis shown of her posts or opinions given on the things she's said, it's just "oh I can't read Nahdia, Nahdia is giving me a lot of trouble, does anyone have Nahdia meta." Which comes across as just for show, instead of explaining how you view each of her posts and why you're having trouble with reading her. Your recent posts about her have been better but I'm not sure if it outweighs the initial lack of analysis given because we had to prod you into giving your reasoning first.

Spoiler:

i guess. my feeling was just that like, raven and i have both been fairly low impact posters thus far. so it's "easiest" to scumread us because we're not likely to hit back hard.

@ raven posts like these feel partner-y

Can you tell me why? You keep saying that she’s trying to “tie” herself to me and “defend” me and I agree with Kanna as I don’t see how she’s doing either one of those things with that post. Why is calling us both lhfs read as “partnery” to you at all. I don’t get it.

I had posted a shitton of content by that point and the thing that Nahdia chose to engage me on was my read of you, they came to your defense on that read, and as far as I can recall hasn't engaged with like.. anything else I've said besides reads on you and them. Then Nahdia voted me and it was, again, partly because of my read on you. So yeah I think there's an associative there.

[lilith2013]

Spoiler:

i don't really see the raven/nahdia link and it feels weird how she's portraying it that way like in these posts:

a) raven is making a point of making it known that she can't commit to a read on nahdia
b) nahdia is defending raven from being pushed
c) what do you think of the fact that lilith also sees the associative?

Find me the quote where Nahdia is “defending” me. Calling us both lhfs isn’t defending.

Spoiler:

and is that really your only take away from what has been an eventful 7 pages?

did you ever explain what exactly I said that was "stirring up both sides" of the Dunn wagon?

shading people defending dunn as well as people attacking dunn. you were fence-sitting and playing both sides.

I need to re-ISO her, I see a few people as having done that. Maybe she just expresses it more cohesively than Nahdia?

? What does this mean, do you think nahdia was fencesitting?

I don’t and still don’t understand her reasoning for most of her reads which initially pinged me but she comes off as so sincere, it’s really hard to distinguish between confused town and scum posting. Her recent posting and in particular, her questioning of me, makes me lean to confused town. When I compare her posting with votato, it’s literally no contest. I am concerned that she is being scumread because of low charisma and I would rather vote a slot I feel more confident on.

I’m really not liking Skitter pushing us together as buddies. What are your thoughts on that? She keeps buddy reading a post that doesn’t read to me that way at all as her main reason for continuing to push this narrative and I also don’t understand why she feels I should be able to alignment lock anyone today. I’m not even alignment locked on Starbuck/votato rn and should probably unvote her pending more content.

UNVOTE:

@Raven, here's the series of posts where Nahdia argues against my read on you.

lilith can you like, summarize your raven read? i see a few points directed on them in your ISO but a general summation would be nice.

oh, funny that should come up. because it's basically what i think of you.

that you're pushing LHF that is. not that you are.

i dont know how one reads Raven' posts as disconnected when they all seem to follow a very clear progression. like, she's devoid of content, yes, but it's all rather consistent content. she outs a few scattered thoughts as the game progresses, but there are two consistent arcs:
her confusion on how to read me
and her read on votato, which she updates as she goes.

I mean, I feel like I've developed decent reads on everyone who I've interacted with, so who's left? people who I haven't talked to, which is pretty much equivalent to low-content

so you're townreading everyone you've interacted with?

i dont know how one reads Raven' posts as disconnected when they all seem to follow a very clear progression. like, she's devoid of content, yes, but it's all rather consistent content. she outs a few scattered thoughts as the game progresses, but there are two consistent arcs:
her confusion on how to read me

Already mentioned that I think her confusion comes off as performative

and her read on votato, which she updates as she goes.

And I don't think the votato read/progression is a valid one. 467 is like, leading up to scumreading both votato and you. She agrees with your push on votato but questions it at the same time.

I mean, I feel like I've developed decent reads on everyone who I've interacted with, so who's left? people who I haven't talked to, which is pretty much equivalent to low-content

so you're townreading everyone you've interacted with?

No - what I mean is that I feel like the people who I still need more content from to sort are mostly in the low-content end of the playerlist. Also I feel like I've followed up with most of those people in one way or another (see 512 - this includes drusilla, MT, raven, and midway)

whether or not the confusion is performative or the votato progression is invalid, it's consistent. which i point out because you referred to her posts as "disconnected". and i dont see how you could have come to that conclusion

Idk if it’s really as easy as raven/nahdia but that’s kind of where I’m at

which is it. do you need more content from our slots, or do you think we're scum?

VOTE: lilith

[/quote]

[lilith2013]

@mod I think I might have fucked up the coding in my previous post. can you please help fix it D:

[lilith2013]

@mod oh nvm, it seems to not be affecting other posts

[lilith2013]

Can you explain what you think I should have done instead when I didn't have enough information to feel like I could scumread you?

You gave about the answer I expected. I understand wanting to pressure people that are present in the thread. Though I do still find it weird you didn't acknowledge my posts after my push on Beeboy, or how others responded to those posts. Like you were apparently mindmelding on Beeboy, so did that mindmeld break when they gave reasons for unvoting me, or did you agree? Also, you say now you can continue pursuing it now that you know my view of Dunn, is this it? I kind of thought there would be more for the follow up.

What posts do you want me to acknowledge? I was catching up on like 300 posts, I only commented on the stuff I thought was important.

My reads have diverged from beeboy's but that doesn't mean my original reasons for townreading him aren't still valid. As I said, the fact that he was having thoughts so similar to mine is a good sign his thought processes are town thought processes, and I think beeboy really got engaged with the conversations that were happening and wasn't afraid to give his opinions on the wagon that was happening at the time. iirc you disagreed with my description of what happened, but I don't really feel like it's worth arguing with that because you basically seem to have locked in your idea of what happened and I don't wanna put in the effort to argue if I don't think the argument will be successful (ie by changing your mind).

Your continual lack of read on Dunn is problematic, for much the same reasons I was scumreading nahdia. Dunn's wagon was the first big event in this game and instead of giving your opinion on Dunn, you latched onto beeboy instead. That reads as if you are uncomfortable with interacting with the main wagon. The "read" you gave me in response was basically a non-read, so it feels like you went straight for beeboy without thinking about what beeboy's motiviations would have been in defending the dunn wagon there and what that would indicate about dunn's alignment. That's a missing link that I often can't replicate when I'm scum.

In post 488, lilith2013 wrote:
Idk if it’s really as easy as raven/nahdia but that’s kind of where I’m at

Can you elaborate on this? Something about it feels very off.

You didn't address this. What did you mean here?

both in my poe -> both had posts that pinged me -> I think both might be scum. What's "off" about this progression?

Why is like 80% of your content in the last several days focused on me?

[lilith2013]

Lilith asked me for my current PoE on page 21 ! Here it is as i’m rereading that page:

{Lilith}
{Votato, Tuxedo}
{Clover, Skitts}
{Dunn}
..
{Beeboy, drusilla}
{Kanna, midway, Raven, Nahdia}

Spoiler: some notes

Votato/Starbuck’s weird disconnect with how he wrote his read of Dunn and how he recalled it in his mind feels town (i explain this in 338). I liked his reads decently as well. Him keeping Clover in the scum pile would have been mildly concerning had i not townread him. I recall at least one other person not liking that as well -- I think their suspicion of that was well founded but i think this outweighs his pocket clover scumread


Agree with Skitts’ positioning on lilith, I think lilith is just town here from her saying this is out of her scumrange combined with skitts saying there’s more “heft” in this game than her usual scumgame. Skitts’ take on drusilla is a pretty good look since it's a slot i don't think ive seen talked about much. Think if skitts is scum it’s definitely not with Nahdia at least.


Yeah i think i’ve decided that Lilith is town today. Additionally if she is scum, i feel like it’s something that’ll become more clear with time, if skitts/lilith’s takes on her meta are to be believed

Holy shit 512 dawns on me how much content lilith has been creating

I see that lilith actually wanted to hear the exact same thing from Nahdia that i did. And nahdia quotes their response to me to her lol (519)

I haven’t really made up my mind on the bottom half. I would probably vote Nahdia first (at least, if it still were page 21) since so many players took stances on them and it’d be more informational than Raven/Kanna/midway imo. Idk if they’re the most likely to be scum yet though

i am going to complete the reread hopefully on sunday since ill be gone tomorrow. I have a little more time tonight to comment on anything if anybody has something they'd like to point out

UNVOTE:

Hey MT, I have issues with your read on me. Do you have any opinions on the actual content I posted, other than saying that I have a lot and that skitter is calling me town?

[lilith2013]

Btw, I am not actually feeling anyone's Raven read, I don't really see where that read is coming from.
Someone help me with that, they just read as null for me.

The only thing is she called Nahdia LHF, which I agree even cutting out all knowledge from outside this game just isn't true. Although I just don't think this game has LHF, even the newer players like Tux are perfectly capable of defending themselves.

beeboy, here's my read on raven:

Raven's posts don't seem to have a coherent thought process behind them, the statements in the posts are disjointed, and her points also feel very distant from the gamestate, like she's avoiding talking about the biggest events of the game (ie skitter vs dunn, tux vs beeboy).

Her reaction to being in votato's POE was really weird - she assumed votato was focusing on "LHF" (including her) when I disagree with that entirely, which I think could indicate feeling nervous about being in POEs/being pressured; and she also shaded votato for this and like, ascribed scum motivations to votato's post that I don't see at all.

Also she seems to say "I don't understand X" or "I'm confused about Y" a

lot

which comes off as like.. an excuse to not provide more substantive content (see: performative "poor me")

[lilith2013]

also relevant:

Imo raven saying “The more I read, the more confused I am” feels more like a performative “poor me” than like, a reachout for someone to help get her engaged

[lilith2013]

@Dunn, what makes you think Skitter’s posting is “fake”?
I don’t understand Nadhia at all.

@Votato, what is so scummy about Clover not having any confident scumreads early on D1?

these 3 lines are about completely separate things - so I don't see a coherent thought process behind this post.

The more I read from this game, the more confused I get. I’m liking Votato a bit better now but I still don’t understand why Clover is his #1 scumread.

I have 0 experience with Lillith but nothing she’s posting is particularly pinging me.

Anyone here have meta on Nadhia? I’m having the most trouble trying to parse her.

@Dunn, can you please answer my Skitter question? Thanks.

And thanks @mod for preventing me from undue eyestrain.

Also these

Nahdia, I'm arguing that each of her posts, taken individually, doesn't make sense to me and I don't understand how she comes up with a post with this many different things going on that don't seem to be connected.

Nahdia did you have any response to this?

[lilith2013]

Raven, pretty sure you also have yet to respond to these:

tux is town. lilith is town? kanna is a bit townie based on first impression. but again, need a lot more content. morning is townish, but need a bit more. im less confident in morning being town than most games. could be the gamblers fallacy making me skeptical, or maybe its something else. but town for now. skitter gives me townvibes, but need to see more content. beeboy gives early townvibes? but has been strange. its page 13, so thats about all youre gonna get. that leaves a PoE of
{clover, midway, nahdia, raven, drusilla}. midway im not willing to lynch at this stage, but mostly because hes LHF and will probably be obvscum later on if scum. im happy leaving my vote on clover pending content from the other slots.

Three of your possible PoE could also be argued as LHF, two of which haven’t posted much content. Why is your focus more on posters with less content than more active posters?

This is pinging me a bit. It reads like, if I can’t push Clover, i’ll shift my focus to the lower content posters, which in general is something scum tends to do more than town.

By definition POE will include people who haven’t been sorted yet because they haven’t posted enough. Why do you have an issue with votato not having a townread on people who haven’t posted a lot? I think that’s a completely fair stance to take.

Also it’s a really weird conclusion to draw that votato is focusing on any of the low-content posters because he basically didn’t mention them other than in his poe list.

[lilith2013]

I don't like this vote, as it feels overreactive. I read Clover as trying to sort Dunn and Lilith and just taking a different POV. It feels more like Lilith putting words into Clover's mouth rather than asking to him elaborate further.

Starbuck, I since retracted my read on Clover - I think partially it was a language barrier issue where the specific language he was using pinged me, and also partially his playstyle of treating everyone as town until proven otherwise.

[lilith2013]

I'm positive there's scum on my wagon. I can't understand anyone who's seriously scumreading me - if you think I am capable of creating this much content with so many different underlying threads going on when I'm scum, then I'm actually super flattered you think I'm that good, but I feel like I'm the most obvtown slot in this game.

re: Raven/Nahdia wagons, they have 0 traction somehow! literally it's just me and skitter voting them.. if they are in fact low hanging fruit, then scum should have been all over those wagons.

[lilith2013]

why is everyone reading for partners on day 1?!

seriously, has this become part of the site meta? it's wild to me.

back in my day

, we would wait for scumflips to read far into associations.

yes....?

I mean, at first, I only put your names together because you were both in my POE and I had pings on both of your posts, but you've since defended each other so there's an associative there whether you want there to be or not. You can't erase that associative and pretend that it doesn't imply something about your alignments.

[lilith2013]

Can you explain what you think I should have done instead when I didn't have enough information to feel like I could scumread you?

You gave about the answer I expected. I understand wanting to pressure people that are present in the thread. Though I do still find it weird you didn't acknowledge my posts after my push on Beeboy, or how others responded to those posts. Like you were apparently mindmelding on Beeboy, so did that mindmeld break when they gave reasons for unvoting me, or did you agree? Also, you say now you can continue pursuing it now that you know my view of Dunn, is this it? I kind of thought there would be more for the follow up.

What posts do you want me to acknowledge? I was catching up on like 300 posts, I only commented on the stuff I thought was important.

My reads have diverged from beeboy's but that doesn't mean my original reasons for townreading him aren't still valid. As I said, the fact that he was having thoughts so similar to mine is a good sign his thought processes are town thought processes, and I think beeboy really got engaged with the conversations that were happening and wasn't afraid to give his opinions on the wagon that was happening at the time. iirc you disagreed with my description of what happened, but I don't really feel like it's worth arguing with that because you basically seem to have locked in your idea of what happened and I don't wanna put in the effort to argue if I don't think the argument will be successful (ie by changing your mind).

Your continual lack of read on Dunn is problematic, for much the same reasons I was scumreading nahdia. Dunn's wagon was the first big event in this game and instead of giving your opinion on Dunn, you latched onto beeboy instead. That reads as if you are uncomfortable with interacting with the main wagon. The "read" you gave me in response was basically a non-read, so it feels like you went straight for beeboy without thinking about what beeboy's motiviations would have been in defending the dunn wagon there and what that would indicate about dunn's alignment. That's a missing link that I often can't replicate when I'm scum.

I mean if you're talking about Beeboy V. Me I would have expected you to comment on how it concluded. It seems like an odd omission from your catch up.

I don't think breaking a mind-meld with someone implies you don't read them as town. However, since you were hopping on a bunch of Beeboy's posts to comment that you agree and it was the conclusion of Beeboy V. Me I did expect something like "what are you guys doing he doesn't have a Dunn read?" or "I wouldn't unvote here." You know what I'm saying, it feels like a missing link.

Okay now you’re literally using the words I used about you

I talked to beeboy already about that, and at the time you had yet to respond to me about whether you had a read on dunn so that wasn’t something I felt I could bring up as an argument because I didn’t know whether you had a read on dunn when I asked beeboy about you.

I already said that I only commented on things I thought were important. During my catch-up I was more focused on how other people were responding to your interactions with beeboy, as well as the lack of Dunn read from you that persisted, so I guess I didn’t think the ending if the interaction itself was notable.

You really seem to want to 1v1 me here, and like.. your reaction to my one question to you was way overblown. Why are you coming after me so hard? Is it because you saw that dunnstral was called town for pushing me and you want the townpoints too? Sorry, no townpoints for you.

In post 488, lilith2013 wrote:
Idk if it’s really as easy as raven/nahdia but that’s kind of where I’m at

Can you elaborate on this? Something about it feels very off.

You didn't address this. What did you mean here?

both in my poe -> both had posts that pinged me -> I think both might be scum. What's "off" about this progression?

Why is like 80% of your content in the last several days focused on me?

This is what interests me at the moment.

I didn't complain about the progression. You asked if it was really so easy as Raven/Nahida, and then said that's where you
are at. That implies you view them as the scum team. Now this pinged me because its a closed set up, and this comes off like a scum slip. Because you seem to think we're looking for two scum. Why?

.........

I’m used to playing in micros. For whatever reason, I always initially think it’s two scum. I realized after I made that post that it likely was a three-man scumteam, but I still stand behind that post. Even if they’re not

the

scumteam, I’m still POEd down to them somewhat.

[lilith2013]

I will do another catchup in a bit and shock warning: they will very likely be disjointed, disparate and unconnected, like they are every damn game I do catchups (particularly extensive ones). @Lillith

I’m pretty much allergic to wall posts and my strongly preferred stream of consciousness post by post responses kept getting me yelled at and accused of spamming and derailing the game, so this is my best attempt to compromise the way I like to do catchups and still be considered of others.

I also said I was confused primarily about Nahdia’s posting because I was but I’m liking her posting more and more and am starting to develop a strong town lean on that slot.

More to come.

i mean the thought did cross my mind that as scum you don't really have the need to produce this much content.

idk. i guess you do have a reason to be scumreading raven, though i disagree with pretty much the whole thing. even so it's at least a bit less convenient now.

@both raven and nahdia: I think I just really struggle to see what the underlying thoughts are behind the posts. Raven, I don’t mean to bash on your posting style, it’s something I’m also having trouble with for drusilla, and this is the main way I read people - understanding the thought process behind the posts and whether those thought processes are town indicative or scum indicative. If I can’t get to/understand the thought processes behind the posts, then I form a scumread on that person because I think either they’re trying to hide their thought processes or their thought processes don’t feel like something I could see from town. I think I’d actually prefer the “spammy” stream of consciousness posts tbh, because that would help with letting me see what your thought processes are, but I think I also have a high tolerance for reading posts if my post count is any indication...

[lilith2013]

Raven, can I get responses from you on these things:

do we have a different definition of LHF or something? what i mean is like, she's pushing the same people she says she needs more content on as scum. the reads feel "easy".

i mean she also explained why she's scumreading her, it's not like she's just going like 'meh skitter isn't here so i'll vote her' or something

i guess. my feeling was just that like, raven and i have both been fairly low impact posters thus far. so it's "easiest" to scumread us because we're not likely to hit back hard.

tux is town. lilith is town? kanna is a bit townie based on first impression. but again, need a lot more content. morning is townish, but need a bit more. im less confident in morning being town than most games. could be the gamblers fallacy making me skeptical, or maybe its something else. but town for now. skitter gives me townvibes, but need to see more content. beeboy gives early townvibes? but has been strange. its page 13, so thats about all youre gonna get.

that leaves a PoE of
{clover, midway, nahdia, raven, drusilla}

. midway im not willing to lynch at this stage, but mostly because hes LHF and will probably be obvscum later on if scum. im happy leaving my vote on clover pending content from the other slots.

This is why I’m voting votato. This post has never sat right with me and it strengthens my Clover tl as well because it was only after I posted that I thought they were unalligned that he switched his vote to me. Clover unlike votato didn’t react suspiciously to that.

Can you explain why you think 321 is focusing on low hanging fruit? I just really disagree with that statement, like all votato was doing was stating that he didn't have townreads on those people and therefore they were in his POE, and (same as me) that naturally happens to include lower content people because he wasn't able to sort them yet due to low content. The way I read it, he wasn't saying that anyone was scummy for being low content, just that he didn't have townreads on them.

i mean i never said my clover scumread was that strong. but its still the strongest scumread i have? i mean clover has a point, but i dont think clover's scumread on me is any better. i think everyone is kinda waiting for scum to appear and reveal themselves, which for some reason they dont seem to want to do.

Well D1 is hard because it’s only when you get flips that you can really get good reads.

I would say that I think it’s extremely unlikely that you and Clover are aligned, so if either one of you flips scum, the other one is very likely to be town.

Is this truly a coincidence, that he switches his vote to me right after this post?

Can you quote the posts where that happened? You keep saying "it was only after I said they're not aligned with Clover that votato voted me" but the vote came way later - As far as I can tell, his vote on you was 120 posts after this.. You're ascribing a cause and effect here that, again, I just totally disagree with

Raven, can you respond to this please

Spoiler:

Yes because her tone seems genuine to me, what’s wrong with that? Is she? It reads more than she’s concerned about us both being LHFs in this game. Do you disagree that either of us would be easy pushes to make?

- it's more the fact that you keep making a Big Deal over the fact that you don't know how to read them and that you're making a point of making this known. it feels kinda fake.
- I dont' think they're lhf
- you might be (@nahdia in a vacuum i think raven might be lhf but i don't think lilith is approaching it from that angle)

Yes, I have been talking about it a lot which Nahdia mentioned as well and my response to you is the same as what I posted to her. I don’t see why you think that’s “fake” though.

My two cents: when you talked about nahdia, there was no actual analysis shown of her posts or opinions given on the things she's said, it's just "oh I can't read Nahdia, Nahdia is giving me a lot of trouble, does anyone have Nahdia meta." Which comes across as just for show, instead of explaining how you view each of her posts and why you're having trouble with reading her. Your recent posts about her have been better but I'm not sure if it outweighs the initial lack of analysis given because we had to prod you into giving your reasoning first.

Spoiler:

i guess. my feeling was just that like, raven and i have both been fairly low impact posters thus far. so it's "easiest" to scumread us because we're not likely to hit back hard.

@ raven posts like these feel partner-y

Can you tell me why? You keep saying that she’s trying to “tie” herself to me and “defend” me and I agree with Kanna as I don’t see how she’s doing either one of those things with that post. Why is calling us both lhfs read as “partnery” to you at all. I don’t get it.

I had posted a shitton of content by that point and the thing that Nahdia chose to engage me on was my read of you, they came to your defense on that read, and as far as I can recall hasn't engaged with like.. anything else I've said besides reads on you and them. Then Nahdia voted me and it was, again, partly because of my read on you. So yeah I think there's an associative there.

Spoiler:

i don't really see the raven/nahdia link and it feels weird how she's portraying it that way like in these posts:

a) raven is making a point of making it known that she can't commit to a read on nahdia
b) nahdia is defending raven from being pushed
c) what do you think of the fact that lilith also sees the associative?

Find me the quote where Nahdia is “defending” me. Calling us both lhfs isn’t defending.

Spoiler:

and is that really your only take away from what has been an eventful 7 pages?

did you ever explain what exactly I said that was "stirring up both sides" of the Dunn wagon?

shading people defending dunn as well as people attacking dunn. you were fence-sitting and playing both sides.

I need to re-ISO her, I see a few people as having done that. Maybe she just expresses it more cohesively than Nahdia?

? What does this mean, do you think nahdia was fencesitting?

I don’t and still don’t understand her reasoning for most of her reads which initially pinged me but she comes off as so sincere, it’s really hard to distinguish between confused town and scum posting. Her recent posting and in particular, her questioning of me, makes me lean to confused town. When I compare her posting with votato, it’s literally no contest. I am concerned that she is being scumread because of low charisma and I would rather vote a slot I feel more confident on.

I’m really not liking Skitter pushing us together as buddies. What are your thoughts on that? She keeps buddy reading a post that doesn’t read to me that way at all as her main reason for continuing to push this narrative and I also don’t understand why she feels I should be able to alignment lock anyone today. I’m not even alignment locked on Starbuck/votato rn and should probably unvote her pending more content.

UNVOTE:

@Raven, here's the series of posts where Nahdia argues against my read on you.

lilith can you like, summarize your raven read? i see a few points directed on them in your ISO but a general summation would be nice.

oh, funny that should come up. because it's basically what i think of you.

that you're pushing LHF that is. not that you are.

i dont know how one reads Raven' posts as disconnected when they all seem to follow a very clear progression. like, she's devoid of content, yes, but it's all rather consistent content. she outs a few scattered thoughts as the game progresses, but there are two consistent arcs:
her confusion on how to read me
and her read on votato, which she updates as she goes.

I mean, I feel like I've developed decent reads on everyone who I've interacted with, so who's left? people who I haven't talked to, which is pretty much equivalent to low-content

so you're townreading everyone you've interacted with?

i dont know how one reads Raven' posts as disconnected when they all seem to follow a very clear progression. like, she's devoid of content, yes, but it's all rather consistent content. she outs a few scattered thoughts as the game progresses, but there are two consistent arcs:
her confusion on how to read me

Already mentioned that I think her confusion comes off as performative

and her read on votato, which she updates as she goes.

And I don't think the votato read/progression is a valid one. 467 is like, leading up to scumreading both votato and you. She agrees with your push on votato but questions it at the same time.

I mean, I feel like I've developed decent reads on everyone who I've interacted with, so who's left? people who I haven't talked to, which is pretty much equivalent to low-content

so you're townreading everyone you've interacted with?

No - what I mean is that I feel like the people who I still need more content from to sort are mostly in the low-content end of the playerlist. Also I feel like I've followed up with most of those people in one way or another (see 512 - this includes drusilla, MT, raven, and midway)

whether or not the confusion is performative or the votato progression is invalid, it's consistent. which i point out because you referred to her posts as "disconnected". and i dont see how you could have come to that conclusion

Idk if it’s really as easy as raven/nahdia but that’s kind of where I’m at

which is it. do you need more content from our slots, or do you think we're scum?

VOTE: lilith

Raven, pretty sure you also have yet to respond to these:

tux is town. lilith is town? kanna is a bit townie based on first impression. but again, need a lot more content. morning is townish, but need a bit more. im less confident in morning being town than most games. could be the gamblers fallacy making me skeptical, or maybe its something else. but town for now. skitter gives me townvibes, but need to see more content. beeboy gives early townvibes? but has been strange. its page 13, so thats about all youre gonna get. that leaves a PoE of
{clover, midway, nahdia, raven, drusilla}. midway im not willing to lynch at this stage, but mostly because hes LHF and will probably be obvscum later on if scum. im happy leaving my vote on clover pending content from the other slots.

Three of your possible PoE could also be argued as LHF, two of which haven’t posted much content. Why is your focus more on posters with less content than more active posters?

This is pinging me a bit. It reads like, if I can’t push Clover, i’ll shift my focus to the lower content posters, which in general is something scum tends to do more than town.

By definition POE will include people who haven’t been sorted yet because they haven’t posted enough. Why do you have an issue with votato not having a townread on people who haven’t posted a lot? I think that’s a completely fair stance to take.

Also it’s a really weird conclusion to draw that votato is focusing on any of the low-content posters because he basically didn’t mention them other than in his poe list.

[/quote]

[lilith2013]

I will do another catchup in a bit and shock warning: they will very likely be disjointed, disparate and unconnected, like they are every damn game I do catchups (particularly extensive ones). @Lillith

I’m pretty much allergic to wall posts and my strongly preferred stream of consciousness post by post responses kept getting me yelled at and accused of spamming and derailing the game, so this is my best attempt to compromise the way I like to do catchups and still be considered of others.

I also said I was confused primarily about Nahdia’s posting because I was but I’m liking her posting more and more and am starting to develop a strong town lean on that slot.

More to come.

i mean the thought did cross my mind that as scum you don't really have the need to produce this much content.

idk. i guess you do have a reason to be scumreading raven, though i disagree with pretty much the whole thing. even so it's at least a bit less convenient now.

@both raven and nahdia: I think I just really struggle to see what the underlying thoughts are behind the posts. Raven, I don’t mean to bash on your posting style, it’s something I’m also having trouble with for drusilla, and this is the main way I read people - understanding the thought process behind the posts and whether those thought processes are town indicative or scum indicative. If I can’t get to/understand the thought processes behind the posts, then I form a scumread on that person because I think either they’re trying to hide their thought processes or their thought processes don’t feel like something I could see from town. I think I’d actually prefer the “spammy” stream of consciousness posts tbh, because that would help with letting me see what your thought processes are, but I think I also have a high tolerance for reading posts if my post count is any indication...

I believe that but then you probably don’t have the experience of having people tell you that you clogging up the thread with useless repetitive posts makes it unfun to play with you, because it makes the game unplayable and difficult to read.

I actually did temporarily revert to that posting style when I made those 4 posts in a row on votato but because it wasn’t a complete catchup, my fear of spamming resulted in my misconstruing the timeline of his posting. I made my post wrongly accusing him of sr me right after I posted my I think he and Clover were unaligned post, BEFORE I read that he thought I was scummy, so I decided that unless I spammed the thread with numerous catchup posts in a row, I was going to continue making those kind of mistakes, so I’m sorry if that makes it harder for you to read me but making posts with several unrelated comments is just the way I do my catchups, so there’s absolutely nothing “disconnected” about that.

I'm closing in on 150 posts and no one has complained about that yet; I made probably 30 posts very close together at one point while catching up, and again, no one has complained.. I feel like this is a bit of a flimsy excuse. I want you to post your thoughts because otherwise how are people supposed to read you?

[lilith2013]

Also until recently I had this sense that you were constantly in "catch-up mode" and not really creating your own content/pushing interactions. It's better now but I also feel like that's at least partly because I started pushing you and you started receiving pressure

[lilith2013]

literally how? i was wary of lilith's reads because they seemed convenient & i didn't understand the reasoning. but looking closely at her posts, it did raise the question i asked of her. what about that screams partner like, at all?

You're right. The more i think of it it's wk-y and not really partner-y

I'm very confident there's at least one scum in that pair. For a while i thought it was svs but i think it's svt now and that raven likes being defended by you

skitter, when you say "raven likes being defended by [nahdia]," is that implying that raven is the S in the SvT? How can nahdia be WKing raven then?

[lilith2013]

We will just have to agree to disagree wrt votato’s PoE post. I still consider that to be scummy but I liked Star’s catchup, so I think votato may just be one of those posters who posts scummy irrespective of alignment. It did seem to me that most who tr him were basing that off of meta, so I can see how that’s possible.

But yes, I did/and still do think that him posting that he’s pretty much voteparking Clover unless he can imo switch to one of the lower content posters is something more often than not, I’ve seen scum do, so I think that was avalid read.

As regard to your other question, are you literally not reading my posts because I already explained that when MWB asked me the exact same thing and I just did it again in my most recent post, so I don’t understand why you keep asking me a question, I’ve not only explained once but twice now?

ok then just say that you already answered it elsewhere, that's not even the main point of my post.

I really don't see an issue with votato saying "clover is my strongest scumread, unless someone who I haven't had enough content from to read yet becomes a stronger scumread than clover and then I would vote the person who is scummier"

[lilith2013]

Isn't that what everyone is doing all the time in mafia

[lilith2013]

On reread I'm actually not satisfied with how votato moved on from his clover scumread and some other stuff, but I think that's a separate issue

[lilith2013]

I can't find any follow-up engagement with clover where votato tries to engage and sort clover more, and he only started questioning clover again after I did.

pedit: my reads on you and nahdia started as independent reads. nahdia chose to defend you, which links you whether you want it or not.

[lilith2013]

Spoiler:

Can you explain what you think I should have done instead when I didn't have enough information to feel like I could scumread you?

You gave about the answer I expected. I understand wanting to pressure people that are present in the thread. Though I do still find it weird you didn't acknowledge my posts after my push on Beeboy, or how others responded to those posts. Like you were apparently mindmelding on Beeboy, so did that mindmeld break when they gave reasons for unvoting me, or did you agree? Also, you say now you can continue pursuing it now that you know my view of Dunn, is this it? I kind of thought there would be more for the follow up.

What posts do you want me to acknowledge? I was catching up on like 300 posts, I only commented on the stuff I thought was important.

My reads have diverged from beeboy's but that doesn't mean my original reasons for townreading him aren't still valid. As I said, the fact that he was having thoughts so similar to mine is a good sign his thought processes are town thought processes, and I think beeboy really got engaged with the conversations that were happening and wasn't afraid to give his opinions on the wagon that was happening at the time. iirc you disagreed with my description of what happened, but I don't really feel like it's worth arguing with that because you basically seem to have locked in your idea of what happened and I don't wanna put in the effort to argue if I don't think the argument will be successful (ie by changing your mind).

Your continual lack of read on Dunn is problematic, for much the same reasons I was scumreading nahdia. Dunn's wagon was the first big event in this game and instead of giving your opinion on Dunn, you latched onto beeboy instead. That reads as if you are uncomfortable with interacting with the main wagon. The "read" you gave me in response was basically a non-read, so it feels like you went straight for beeboy without thinking about what beeboy's motiviations would have been in defending the dunn wagon there and what that would indicate about dunn's alignment. That's a missing link that I often can't replicate when I'm scum.

I mean if you're talking about Beeboy V. Me I would have expected you to comment on how it concluded. It seems like an odd omission from your catch up.

I don't think breaking a mind-meld with someone implies you don't read them as town. However, since you were hopping on a bunch of Beeboy's posts to comment that you agree and it was the conclusion of Beeboy V. Me I did expect something like "what are you guys doing he doesn't have a Dunn read?" or "I wouldn't unvote here." You know what I'm saying, it feels like a missing link.

Okay now you’re literally using the words I used about you

I talked to beeboy already about that, and at the time you had yet to respond to me about whether you had a read on dunn so that wasn’t something I felt I could bring up as an argument because I didn’t know whether you had a read on dunn when I asked beeboy about you.

I already said that I only commented on things I thought were important. During my catch-up I was more focused on how other people were responding to your interactions with beeboy, as well as the lack of Dunn read from you that persisted, so I guess I didn’t think the ending if the interaction itself was notable.

You really seem to want to 1v1 me here, and like.. your reaction to my one question to you was way overblown. Why are you coming after me so hard? Is it because you saw that dunnstral was called town for pushing me and you want the townpoints too? Sorry, no townpoints for you.

In post 488, lilith2013 wrote:
Idk if it’s really as easy as raven/nahdia but that’s kind of where I’m at

Can you elaborate on this? Something about it feels very off.

You didn't address this. What did you mean here?

both in my poe -> both had posts that pinged me -> I think both might be scum. What's "off" about this progression?

Why is like 80% of your content in the last several days focused on me?

This is what interests me at the moment.

I didn't complain about the progression. You asked if it was really so easy as Raven/Nahida, and then said that's where you
are at. That implies you view them as the scum team. Now this pinged me because its a closed set up, and this comes off like a scum slip. Because you seem to think we're looking for two scum. Why?

.........

I’m used to playing in micros. For whatever reason, I always initially think it’s two scum. I realized after I made that post that it likely was a three-man scumteam, but I still stand behind that post. Even if they’re not

the

scumteam, I’m still POEd down to them somewhat.

Why do you think it’s likely to be a “three-man scumteam” and if your initial belief was that it was two, then how are you seeing Tux as thinking this as a scumslip?

13 players -> most likely 3 scum based on ms meta?

I think Tux has picked me to tunnel in much the same way he seemed to have picked beeboy to tunnel, without showing any development in the read but rather as if he had decided that he was going to push me and picked whatever posts he could find that he could remotely paint as scummy. I wanted to save this for after he responded to me but basically his pushes on both me and beeboy don’t have that feeling of weaving the underlying threads of gamesolving, they feel like isolated interactions that he can’t link to other thoughts about the game. The “missing link” that I mentioned.

[lilith2013]

UNVOTE:

I need to reevaluate some things. MT makes me really uncomfortable with how hard she is townreading me for reasons I can’t find. having a lot of second thoughts on votato’s lack of engagement with clover who was supposed to be his strongest scumread and then apparent passiveness in trying to sort the people he put in his poe.

[lilith2013]

I’m having a lot of second thoughts about votato^

[lilith2013]

Kanna, why did you join and why did you leave the nahdia wagon?

[lilith2013]

True, I have seen that as well, so I don’t understand why either Lillith or Skitter think it suspicious that neither Nahdia nor I are being wagoned. My point was that it has been scum more often than town that has tended to go after the least charismatic slots. That’s exactly what happened in the game where I referenced RC for example. Both scum and town deathtunnelled LHF!Lovebird in that game and incorrectly townread scum!Formerfish. He had a real uphill battle convincing everyone that he was right. That’s why I’m always wary when I see LHF getting wagoned, especially on D1. Not saying LHF can never be scum, just that low charisma is a very poor barometer for reading someone on D1 anyway

My point is that if you’re supposed to be LHF, why is no one else jumping on these wagons? I know I’m town and if you’re also town/LHF then scum should have leaped at the chance to gain momentum on your lynch by following my lead.

[lilith2013]

Raven do you have any reaction to my 693 and 694? You seemed to be insisting for evidence of what skitter and I were saying and I gave you my evidence and you keep ignoring me

[lilith2013]

I can't find any follow-up engagement with clover where votato tries to engage and sort clover more, and he only started questioning clover again after I did.

pedit: my reads on you and nahdia started as independent reads.

nahdia chose to defend you, which links you whether you want it or not.

Please explain HOW? Kanna and Tux have also defended me. Are they “linked” to me as well?

I don’t think Tux has defended you? seems like he is more just taking any post I make and trying to paint me as scummy with it.

Kanna just said “I think she’s town” but I don’t feel like she was particularly advocating against your lynch.

Nahdia argued with me point for point as if she really didn’t want you to be lynched.

All three of those situations are wildly different.

[lilith2013]

What I don’t understand is why MWB so strongly tr him for that?

Okay, what’s your read on midway then?

[lilith2013]

Spoiler:

True, I have seen that as well, so I don’t understand why either Lillith or Skitter think it suspicious that neither Nahdia nor I are being wagoned. My point was that it has been scum more often than town that has tended to go after the least charismatic slots. That’s exactly what happened in the game where I referenced RC for example. Both scum and town deathtunnelled LHF!Lovebird in that game and incorrectly townread scum!Formerfish. He had a real uphill battle convincing everyone that he was right. That’s why I’m always wary when I see LHF getting wagoned, especially on D1. Not saying LHF can never be scum, just that low charisma is a very poor barometer for reading someone on D1 anyway

My point is that if you’re supposed to be LHF, why is no one else jumping on these wagons? I know I’m town and if you’re also town/LHF then scum should have leaped at the chance to gain momentum on your lynch by following my lead.

Not necessarily, scum doesn’t always jump on LHF but it happens more often than not but I think this take is wifom.

How is this wifom exactly? Scum want to mislynch people; I agree on the point that scum often go for LHF because they’re easy to mislynch. It’s really weird that out of both your wagon and the nahdia wagon, neither skitter nor I got any support there (although tbh if you flip town, I think that implicates votato and MT and I’m starting to doubt them for other reasons so I might be coming around to you actually being LHF. I’m just still trying to figure out why it felt so difficult to get people to vote you.)

Do you think I’m scum?

Spoiler:

I can't find any follow-up engagement with clover where votato tries to engage and sort clover more, and he only started questioning clover again after I did.

pedit: my reads on you and nahdia started as independent reads.

nahdia chose to defend you, which links you whether you want it or not.

Please explain HOW? Kanna and Tux have also defended me. Are they “linked” to me as well?

I don’t think Tux has defended you? seems like he is more just taking any post I make and trying to paint me as scummy with it.

Kanna just said “I think she’s town” but I don’t feel like she was particularly advocating against your lynch.

Nahdia argued with me point for point as if she really didn’t want you to be lynched.

All three of those situations are wildly different.

Yes, but you’re conveniently ignoring the fact that you and Skitter keep pushing us together. No one has done that with either me and Kanna or me and Tux.

I don’t think I was doing that before nahdia started defending you, only after? I mentioned your names together but only because I thought you were both scummy, not because I saw anything partner-indicative. It was only after the nahdia defense that I thought came off really strong that I started thinking about it that way.

[lilith2013]

What I don’t understand is why MWB so strongly tr him for that?

Okay, what’s your read on midway then?

Ironically, one thing I did like about votato’s posting is he wanted more time to sort out MWB. I’m not sure who to vote for yet but I’m sort of getting the feeling that MT is buddying you and I’m also not tr Skitter’s deathtunnell on Nahdia, so rn, I think I’d prefer either to MWB.

It seems like midway responded to this, did you have any thoughts on that? Quote below:

What I don’t understand is why MWB so strongly tr him for that?

I don't townread him for that; it's more like not really thinking that was scummy. I townread him for trying to sort people and scumhunt. I honestly don't think the PoE post comes from scum either.

[lilith2013]

UNVOTE:

I need to reevaluate some things. MT makes me really uncomfortable with how hard she is townreading me for reasons I can’t find. having a lot of second thoughts on votato’s lack of engagement with clover who was supposed to be his strongest scumread and then apparent passiveness in trying to sort the people he put in his poe.

What about Starbuck? How did her entrance affect that read?

Her catchup posts are pretty null to me, I haven’t really found anything that resonates as strong town and I also didn’t really see anything that I thought wasn’t fakeable.

[lilith2013]

Raven, have you posted reads recently that I could reread?

[lilith2013]

Okay then I think I’m back to “I’m still trying to figure out why there weren’t more people jumping on your wagon if you’re town/LHF” unless it’s literally MT and/or votato

[lilith2013]

Do you have any thoughts on that?

[lilith2013]

I will admit I've been slowly edging Kanna to my scummy pile but if my townreads are saying she's town I'm more than likely wrong than correct. I should go read Skitter and Nahdia more closely after some tea.

My confident townreads are now looking something like Lilith/Skitter/Beeboy/Raven/Dunnstral

Hey ftr I don’t think kanna is particularly towny, and also you should have more faith in yourself.

[lilith2013]

Also @Clover how were you reading votato/how are you reading starbuck?

[lilith2013]

Raven can I get responses to these?

What I don’t understand is why MWB so strongly tr him for that?

Okay, what’s your read on midway then?

Ironically, one thing I did like about votato’s posting is he wanted more time to sort out MWB. I’m not sure who to vote for yet but I’m sort of getting the feeling that MT is buddying you and I’m also not tr Skitter’s deathtunnell on Nahdia, so rn, I think I’d prefer either to MWB.

It seems like midway responded to this, did you have any thoughts on that? Quote below:

What I don’t understand is why MWB so strongly tr him for that?

I don't townread him for that; it's more like not really thinking that was scummy. I townread him for trying to sort people and scumhunt. I honestly don't think the PoE post comes from scum either.

Okay then I think I’m back to “I’m still trying to figure out why there weren’t more people jumping on your wagon if you’re town/LHF” unless it’s literally MT and/or votato

Do you have any thoughts on that?

[lilith2013]

Raven, have you posted reads recently that I could reread?

Are you asking if I’ve made any kind of list yet? The answer is no.

I still think Kanna, Clover are town. Lean town on Nahdia, Tux. Null on most, still haven’t made up mind on beeboy, Dunn, you. Drusilla isn’t pinging me and I think MWB could possibly be this game’s Lovebird.

So that leaves MT, Skitter and Star, so I will probably vote amongst those three. I would really like to hear more from Star.

Also can you explain the Tux read? Can you also explain why you asked me about Tux accusing me of slipping and how my response to that affected your read on either me or him?

[lilith2013]

I will admit I've been slowly edging Kanna to my scummy pile but if my townreads are saying she's town I'm more than likely wrong than correct. I should go read Skitter and Nahdia more closely after some tea.

My confident townreads are now looking something like Lilith/Skitter/Beeboy/Raven/Dunnstral

Hey ftr I don’t think kanna is particularly towny, and also you should have more faith in yourself.

I really don’t understand this, don’t you think her thought processes have made logical sense?

I’m lacking the ~townvibing~ feels that I think I should be getting. skitter and beeboy both give me ~townvibing~ feelings.

[lilith2013]

skitter, when you say "raven likes being defended by [nahdia]," is that implying that raven is the S in the SvT? How can nahdia be WKing raven then?

skitter has been openly scumreading nahdia. why were you thinking that could be the case, lilith?

I was super confused by how I read it and I thought that meant there was a huge hole in skitter’s argument (that raven liking being defended = scummy but that wasn’t what skitter was trying to say)

[lilith2013]

i do not mind answering questions with regards to my thought process after the fact as i have learned that this is something people sometimes have difficulty understanding with regards to me (thanks to clidd) but if i am expected to present it alongside the questions it kinda defeats the purpose. how would i ask skitter about a potential town indicative reason for a behaviour without informing her answer without hiding my thought process, for instance?

That’s fair - I don’t think the actual entire thought process needs to be revealed in real time, but I do think that there should be evidence of the thought process happening and evidence of how a push is helping someone sort a slot or move towards a solve, if that makes sense. I’m okay with that as long as I can get information on what the thought process was after the fact.

[lilith2013]

MT makes me really uncomfortable with how hard she is townreading me for reasons I can’t find

i feel p good with mt town actually
also there's a lot of people who are townreading u p hard, why does mt ping you in particular?

I feel like other people who are townreading me can point to a post and say “here’s why I thought this post was towny/here’s why it makes me think Lilith is town.” MT’s townread of me is basically “skitter thinks she’s town and she has a lot of content.” I can’t tell whether she’s actually read any of my posts and thought they were towny, which really bothers me because I feel like she’s just trying to blend in with the other people who are townreading me.

[lilith2013]

btw today’s the official start of my VLA. At a minimum I’m probably not going to be around during the daytime anymore.

[lilith2013]

He accused me of slipping, not the other way around

[lilith2013]

prodging, will try to read after work today

[lilith2013]

I feel like Raven should feel more paranoid about you defending her so strongly and instead kind of took your motives for granted

[lilith2013]

I don’t necessarily agree with skitter that it’s svt though

[lilith2013]

I feel like Raven should feel more paranoid about you defending her so strongly and instead kind of took your motives for granted

idk how many ways i can say that i wasnt so much defending raven as i was questioning the legitimacy of your reads.

Sure the intent you had was to question my reads but the result of it was that you were effectively defending raven, no? Like chainsaw kind of defense

[lilith2013]

I feel like Raven should feel more paranoid about you defending her so strongly and instead kind of took your motives for granted

Why? I don’t see that at all. I’m also becoming more and more confident that Nahdia is town. She just went from looking to a counterwagon to Skittter to hard doubling down on Skitter. How much more anti-survivalist can you possibly get?

I think this is a really bad take, bad as in not making sense to me at all. Why should I be remotely paranoid of a slot hard defending me that I am feeling more and more confident is town? In what world does that make an iota of sense to you?

What do you think about Star’s thinking you and Skitter are tagteaming because I’m seriously starting to wonder about that as well?

At the time you had no read on nahdia and were verbalizing how much difficulty you had reading them. If someone were to come in defending me the way nahdia did, I’d feel pretty paranoid that they had ulterior motives for doing so. And look, you’re now townreading nahdia so if it was scum!nahdia then the move worked to start pocketing you and if it was town!nahdia then I’m right and your not being paranoid is suspicious.

Re: Starbuck, I think Starbuck is kinda scummy and votato was pretty scummy. Starbuck has been shading me basically since I announced that I was no longer townreading her slot, so I don’t really put a lot of stock in how she is painting me and skitter. As for my actual opinion on me and skitter, she definitely knows my scumgame the best out of the people in this game and she’s probably second-most familiar with my scumgame out of people on this site. I don’t see any issue with her townreading me so hard when my scumgame is vastly vastly different from my towngame and she would recognize that. I think it’s natural to look to a person that you strongly townread for guidance/for help/whatever in a game where you need to identify other town and work together with them, and people trying to shade us for that when it’s a major winning point for town is really off. Like I think skitter has a really strong towngame and I think I have a decent towngame as well, and scum are probably afraid that we’ve townlocked each other because that means it’s a very very uphill battle for them. I think it could be suspicious if skitter was trying to create a townbloc and put herself in it but she hasn’t done anything of the sort.

tldr, I now want to vote Starbuck

[lilith2013]

VOTE: starbuck

I’ve been leaning this way for a while on votato’s slot and how he was scumreading Clover but then never engaged to try to develop that read and also didn’t really engage with people in his poe to try to sort them either. Starbuck trying to shade me and skitter townlocking each other is also really bad and the rest of her catchup hasn’t change my mind about that slot.

[lilith2013]

Oh skitter read my mind - starbuck trying to shade me for having too MANY posts is also really bad. It is actually part of my meta that as scum I struggle to create content but also the nature of the content itself is very superficial. Even if you don’t know that, I’m not calling myself obvtown for the amount of posts I have but rather that I would not be able to fake the gamesolving that I’ve done in my posts. (this is also @kanna)

Ftr I was told that people hate walls, so I switched to multiple smaller posts because I thought that would be easier to read. Apparently it’s not???

[lilith2013]

I feel like Raven should feel more paranoid about you defending her so strongly and instead kind of took your motives for granted

idk how many ways i can say that i wasnt so much defending raven as i was questioning the legitimacy of your reads.

Sure the intent you had was to question my reads but the result of it was that you were effectively defending raven, no? Like chainsaw kind of defense

How? Skitter is saying she’s tr me off of meta and still not not walking back her one scum in Nadhia/me theory in the event of a Nahdia townflip. She’s on the one hand is claiming that she would recesses if Nahdia flipped town but she has given no INDEPENDENT reason for thinking I could be scum other than that.

If Skitter is pushing Nahdia in good faith and tr me off of meta, then don’t you think the logical thing would be to stop pushing that narrative in the event of a Nahdia townflip?

? I don’t understand how this was in response to the post you quoted

skitter already explained this and I think her explanation was fine

[lilith2013]

lilith i would switch to starbuck if we're approaching deadline and we need my vote but i would much rather nahdia

Okay. I’d also switch to nahdia if deadline approaches and I can’t get support on Starbuck.

[lilith2013]

i think that there is some link between nahdia and raven, by virtue of lumping themselves into the same category and defending themselves as a group (and they're both doing this).

i'm not sure if it's:
- scum/scum who feel that since the partner associative got caught out they need to vehemently deny it
- or one of them is scum and is utilizing that link to say that: 'hey, this is a non-scummy behavior. multiple people (including people that i know to be townies!) are doing this'. this is what i meant by tying themselves to one another. i currently think we live in this universe. i think nahdia has seen that raven is getting flak for similar things that they are, and is defending *both* of them together in an attempt to minimize what they're being scumread over. and i think raven likes being defended so is just taking nahdia's side and defending them back.

Here’s skitter’s original explanation

[lilith2013]

@raven I disagree that it’s the same thing, but regardless, I feel like I then spent quite a bit of time engaging you to try to determine if the disconnect I felt was AI whereas starbuck hasn’t done that all, she’s just throwing shade at me and seeing if it will stick

[lilith2013]

@Starbuck, how have we misrepresented your posts? Where did you say that the reason you wanted me to post less was so that other people could speak? Iirc you’ve only pointed at my post count to say that I’m clogging up the thread and could be scum for flooding, and also to shade me saying that I’m obvtown

[lilith2013]

How come you’re just voting now?

[lilith2013]

Oh I see, fair enough

[lilith2013]

We’re not lynching skitter today. Irrelevant to my locktownread on skitter, I think this sums it up quite well:

That being said, I think that mislynching skitter on D1 is basically a wet dream for scum, and so I'm not really interested in lynching here.

Also we have 24 hours left so I’m moving to nahdia wagon. There’s a possibility I won’t be back before the day ends and I’d like my vote to be useful.

VOTE: nahdia

@Clover, midway is not happening today. I think you need to pick a wagon to be on.

[lilith2013]

Same goes for everyone not voting or on a vanity wagon (dunnstral, midway, drusilla, starbuck, MT).

[lilith2013]

I think the starbuck wagon can happen!!!

VOTE: starbuck

[lilith2013]

so a deadline wagon on midway as a counterwagon to starbuck?

[lilith2013]

no thanks

[lilith2013]

gg! thanks for pulling out the win, town!! and thanks to hectic for modding!

I was so sad that i got NKed right after figuring it out also I just wanna point out this (n1, post-town realization) gem from my pt with tux:

Nahdia’s prob my second pick [for mafia] after dunnstral

Unfortunately I got bamboozled by my own wolf-partner D:


also, I was ready to bet money on mwb being a jester because of the ridiculous things he was saying. half the time I was like ???? when I read his posts. please try a bit harder to be towny when town, friend.

[lilith2013]