But I need to do something smart...
VOTE: Something_Smart
This is the only option that has a hint of credibility to me. Honestly, town wouldn't give away their monies at random like that.In post 58, Persivul wrote:Unless your scum buddy told you he had a strong hand.In post 57, lane0168 wrote:And even if that was my plan to give my money away, magna, chances are it goes to town.
Given the abilities in play, Scum would LOVE to get these 1250$ abilities. Especially a Vengeful since they get to one-shot a Townie for free, meaning scum don't really lose momentum from it.MagnaofIllusion wrote:I find it suspect that you just assumed an immediate All-In would not possibly get called. Especially given you told Pers "I'm not going to win". If anyone calls then odds are overwhelming that one person ends up with $1,000 plus in their bankroll immediately. Which if they are scum is not good for Town.In post 53, lane0168 wrote:@magna. I'm not sure I understand the question. I didn't want to consolidate money into anyone's hands but my own. I didn't expect anyone to call. I want money to get the benefits of getting money. So why am I scummy again?
I could certainly see a pre-game scenario where it was decided to try to consolidate money on one scum via an All-in and scum counterclaim.
1- Even scum wouldn't give away monies at random, the only way that it makes any amount of sense is scum trying to give away their monies to a scumpartner with a good hand, to get this perk out ASAP. I called to break that, as I am quite confident in my hand. But here's the kicker: for any townie, doing that is betting blind. It's like how I play poker at home, all-in first hand and get ready to lol. I didn't win an online tour for my stepfather by all-ining, I did it by eating a few dumb all-ins with good hands. Luck played its part.In post 78, lane0168 wrote:@infinity, I don't like mm. Here he says town wouldn't give away their monies random like that. I'm lead to believe he thinks scum would give away their money at random... And yet scum would LOVE to get those abilities. We've already established its hugely beneficial for scum to gain money. And everyone seems to think I'm in a ploy to give my money to mm.In post 61, The MM wrote:This is the only option that has a hint of credibility to me. Honestly, town wouldn't give away their monies at random like that.In post 58, Persivul wrote:Unless your scum buddy told you he had a strong hand.In post 57, lane0168 wrote:And even if that was my plan to give my money away, magna, chances are it goes to town.Given the abilities in play, Scum would LOVE to get these 1250$ abilities. Especially a Vengeful since they get to one-shot a Townie for free, meaning scum don't really lose momentum from it.MagnaofIllusion wrote:I find it suspect that you just assumed an immediate All-In would not possibly get called. Especially given you told Pers "I'm not going to win". If anyone calls then odds are overwhelming that one person ends up with $1,000 plus in their bankroll immediately. Which if they are scum is not good for Town.In post 53, lane0168 wrote:@magna. I'm not sure I understand the question. I didn't want to consolidate money into anyone's hands but my own. I didn't expect anyone to call. I want money to get the benefits of getting money. So why am I scummy again?
I could certainly see a pre-game scenario where it was decided to try to consolidate money on one scum via an All-in and scum counterclaim.
TL;DR Version: Lane, you just made the scummiest move so far, and not just because it's the only big one.
But mm seems to think I'm scum because town wouldn't give money away like that.
@mm, why would scum give money away like that? Especially when they can benefit hugely from getting perks?
Because it has some leanings (some are so soft they don't show up in the final results) and I'm making sure everyone keeps track of that. I'm not writing down people as scum or town this easily as y'all, that's it. Do I need to write down my tiniest leans? People can change my opinion of them in one post.In post 93, Persivul wrote:VOTE: The MM
Based on the chip dumping theory and a reads list full of nulls. If you don't have any reads yet, why put up a list? Oh yeah...because it looks kinda townie.
Your votes for me basically say I'm transparent scum, guys; which would mean I'm bad. I'm not.lane0168 wrote:The mm, who said you were playing badly? I must've missed that. And why is everyone single one of your reads null?
What idea? The chip-dumping theory? Just because I'm confident in my hand doesn't mean I'm scum, otherwise that would mean I was just collecting lane's monies. Besides, lane claimed to have done that with no coordination, so what do you think are the odds of the guy with the nuts be town? Just down to luck, out of the 10 remaning, odds are 2 or 3 are scum, making it like 75% chance I'm town.lane0168 wrote:Who is scum just following Persivul's idea? I'll find you. Unless it's just mm and only mm
I agree that it was a little bit early, but I miscalculated and thought that simply eating one guy's monies would hand me enough to hit a Governor or Vengeful. And frankly, this doubles as a message in retrospect, since I announced my confidence in our hand, it's asking everyone to just go ahead and spare their monies and avoid some humiliation.In post 98, qubixes wrote:I don't understand the bolded part. If you thought scum might do that, then why not wait until the partner shows up and calls? (And take both of their money.) [...]In post 88, The MM wrote: Even scum wouldn't give away monies at random, the only way that it makes any amount of sense is scum trying to give away their monies to a scumpartner with a good hand, to get this perk out ASAP.But here's the kicker: for any townie, doing that is betting blind.[...]I called to break that, as I am quite confident in my hand.
- How long do I wait..? Eternity. Going gung-ho is a bad idea. Who is going to follow if I just say "X is scum"? Noone. So I never follow just gut feeling, or just reason; so usually by a bunch of pages I have reads, but I try to be as soft as possible on them during RVS and immediately after.lane0168 wrote:@the mm. How long do you wait to go full gung-ho with your reads? Why are you concerned about how we will act of you go full gung-ho with your reads?
This could be a case of tunneling on my part, but I really don't like the mm. Unless everything they say is just fitting my preconceived notion. Will consider that
There was too much stuff in rvs that was weird to even comment on infinities read list. Two self votes. Moi changing rvs to bandwagon. Infinity having self at bottom. Wasn't going to get to decipher anything from any of that.
The clearer my reads are to the rest of the town, the better they understand me.qubixes wrote:@The MM
- I don't think the problem with the readlist is the number of null reads (at least to me). But why put them out that early?
- I tried to find out by looking through your earlier games. I only found one, where you replaced in. That is correct?
Can I ask what NAI means? The wiki points me to a random player. (Is it "Not An Issue" or whatever?)Infinity 324 wrote:Was NAI, he seemed to read too much into it
Tanks.In post 127, Something_Smart wrote:NAI = non-alignment-indicative
1- I may have done what I criticized lane for, but I'm sure I got this pot in the bag. Securing the money away from the scum's the name of the game, since even one scum purchasing a vengeful or governor day is time lost for town. I'm not sure baiting the scum was even possible, but right now I agree that this move makes me look scummy -- that is, if I'm lane's partner but other accusations don't hold water as far as bets go.RedCoyote wrote:RE: lane's 78
I can see the thought process here more clearly than I can see the scumlane argument.
The scumlane conclusion argues that lane knowingly went all in in an attempt to consolidate funds to the scum team. Reasonable, but it requires that lane came up with a devious and clever strategy to act on immediately. He would necessarily have gotten attention for this bet, which the scumteam had to know. Were they betting (heh) that we would ultimately ignore it? I just think it sounds too complex. It's reasonable, but I don't think it's likely.
Now, lane proposes an interesting counterargument. The MM suggested that the above scumlane argument holds water. He wasn't the original one to propose it, but he is a follower. There's a caveat though. MM called lane's bet. Ergo, what The MM is criticizing lane for he just did himself.
Then again, perhaps MM is that sure that lane is scum that he's willing to gamble all his money in an effort to stop lane from winning. On the other hand, if his hand is weak, he's giving the scum a sizable pot now...
The question everyone has to ask themselves, if you were townMM, would you have called scumlane? If so, why didn't you? If not, why would townMM do this?
---Playing the newbie card is unnecessary and will detract from your status in my eyes, not improve it.In post 88, The MM wrote:I'll be coming up with a readslist as well as I can, but keep in mind that didn't help me much in my first game so don't be surprised if I only dig myself deeper and you end up lynching me.
---Why would you assume the former if you don't know him, however?In post 90, The MM wrote:I'm undecided between thinking this was a scummy move to pass money to scum, or really just a mindless bluff, but I'd think lane's better than that.
I also get a sense that you are trying to have it both ways. These two statements appear to contradict somewhat:In post 90, The MM wrote:I'd think lane's better than [making a mindless bluff].---In post 90, The MM wrote:I'm convinced [lane] plays dumbYeah, you are definitely my top townread right now.In post 91, Persivul wrote:It shouldn't matter for today. If Lane loses as he says he will, then it would be the winner we would want to lynch. I'm kind of kicking myself for mentioning the possibility when I did. It might have been more informative to let the hand play out before saying anything.
VOTE: The MM, L-2.
That struck me.In post 107, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Posting for my benefit for later reference – FA and Pers have both made “13 player oops” slips.
That was the plan in a shellnut, though you put it to parody levels. But wanting to look as Town as possible is not limited to scum.In post 107, MagnaofIllusion wrote:The bad part of MM’s full readslist is not that it is not strong. I don’t expect that on Page 4. Why it may be an example of scum play is it appeared right after MM had drawn a couple votes (Infinity and Lane) and has the feel of “Have to post content to look Town before a wagon develops”.
I need to push this point as I do not understand this attitude of lane towards callouts. This bluff was hasty.In post 107, MagnaofIllusion wrote:I think Lane’s response to the pressure has been Null/Reasonable but this post pushes my gut.In post 75, lane0168 wrote:Otherwise it could just be someone who tried to bluff and got called. You guys obviously know nothing about poker. People bluff. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. I think it's obvious you guys know nothing about poker to think that there would obviously be a call on all in first hand. You're trying to make it scummy when it isn't.
Lane made what is the equivalent of Newb101 Poker Bad Play. Going effectively All-In the first hand with what he is claiming is a bad hand is the kind of thing you see from complete novice players. And yet his response is to basically ridicule everyone who suspects him as not understanding poker.
I agree this is arrogant of me to say that, but when you take things at face value, I decided that if that was how you played then perhaps I should lay it down in terms that speak to you.In post 107, MagnaofIllusion wrote:For someone who decried players taking things at face value there is an awful lot you are expecting everyone to just take at face value in this response for it to be reasonable.In post 97, The MM wrote:What idea? The chip-dumping theory? Just because I'm confident in my hand doesn't mean I'm scum, otherwise that would mean I was just collecting lane's monies. Besides, lane claimed to have done that with no coordination, so what do you think are the odds of the guy with the nuts be town? Just down to luck, out of the 10 remaning, odds are 2 or 3 are scum, making it like 75% chance I'm town.
I agree that I jumped in a bit too early, which drew all sorts of non-benefices.In post 111, Persivul wrote:Actually MM would look a lot better if he had simply said he has a great hand and so he called. Claiming he was pre-empting scum's plan is bad. As has been already noted, if here were really thinking at that level, he would have waited for scum to call before going in himself.In post 109, MagnaofIllusion wrote:It is also possible that MM has a good 5 card draw hand and he pre-empted scum’s plan as Town.
This sounds like such, but my bet was short-sighted and I recognize it. I was kinda between "oh look some guy's all-in'ing and I'm sure to eat him let's f*ckin do this" and "some dumbnut's bluffing is killing the gimmick, let's stop this rite now" in my head.In post 134, lane0168 wrote:Yes, but it feels like you're just trying to come up with reasons for why you didn't wait for my partner to call if that's what you were really thinking when you called me. You wanted to put a stop to it, and you thought 1000 would be enough for the most expensive abilities. Where did you come up with 1000 being the most expensive abilities? Did you never actually look at the abilities in the first place? Because if not, I'm having trouble figuring out why you'd think 1000 was for the most expensive ones. And if you had looked at them, I'm having trouble figuring out why you'd think 1000 was the most expensive ones?In post 130, The MM wrote:I just made the mistake of thinking the most expensive abilities were prized at 1000 (instead of 1250) and thus I'd only need to eat your monies to get the best abilities in the game. Does that answer your question?
Either you didn't look at them, and in that case you would have no idea or reason to believe abilities are different prices, so that's not the case.
Or you did look at them, and would then see the prices. And see they are different prices for different abilities. Which must be the case. So how do you come up with 1000 being the most expensive abilities?
Are you just making up excuses now?
Like I said, I just thought I was doing everything in the same go. Avoiding other townies from losing their money, killing the scum passing money gambit and taking a bunch of money myself. I don't consider money going to the hands of one townie bad per se, though of course the situation makes scum comes to mind, but sometimes the townies must make use of these PRs.In post 139, qubixes wrote:I do agree with lane here that it feels like you are making up excuses. One of the underlying reasons I asked about the sentence specifically, is because it suggests that you were trying to prevent a scum plan. That could have been true. But now instead you claim that you were actually thinking about getting enough money to get the most expensive item in the shop. Did you consider that it is quite bad for a townie to have a lot of money/abilities compared to the others? Because scum don't have that particular problem.In post 126, The MM wrote:I agree that it was a little bit early, but I miscalculated and thought that simply eating one guy's monies would hand me enough to hit a Governor or Vengeful. And frankly, this doubles as a message in retrospect, since I announced my confidence in our hand, it's asking everyone to just go ahead and spare their monies and avoid some humiliation.In post 98, qubixes wrote:I don't understand the bolded part. If you thought scum might do that, then why not wait until the partner shows up and calls? (And take both of their money.) [...]In post 88, The MM wrote:Even scum wouldn't give away monies at random, the only way that it makes any amount of sense is scum trying to give away their monies to a scumpartner with a good hand, to get this perk out ASAP.But here's the kicker: for any townie, doing that is betting blind.[...]I called to break that, as I am quite confident in my hand.Why was it short-sighted according to you? Because you didn't wait for the potential scum partner to show up? Or because you miscalculated the shop prizes? Or both?In post 136, The MM wrote: This sounds like such, but my bet was short-sighted and I recognize it. I was kinda between "oh look some guy's all-in'ing and I'm sure to eat him let's f*ckin do this" and "some dumbnut's bluffing is killing the gimmick, let's stop this rite now" in my head.
I was sure to only need to take one guy's money because of my own habits when I create such game systems, which is basically me screwing myself over, but whatever. I sure hope Kappy folds, at least this entire thing will have harmed the least people possible and I still get 1k$ until some people decide it's a great idea to lynch me.
UNVOTE: lane, by the way, that's useless to keep it there.
Also, why is it useless to keep your vote there? He is the only NULL (+scum) read in you read list. Did it change?
I will wait for the hands to be revealed, but I feel like you are playing from a scum perspective. The admissions of trying to look town, being rash with your bets don't make me feel better either.
It could. Emphasis on nervous.In post 185, lane0168 wrote:I guess it could just be nervous noobtown?
2 times the base money. Plus you can't really chide me about not reading the rules -- you didn't bother about the fact that jokers exist because the mod needed 55 cards to hand 5 cards to 11 players.lane0168 wrote:Then he came up with he just thought he needed 1000 for the highest priced abilities... Where did that number even come from?!
1- Persivul stressed it enough: people with too much money are lynch-bait. I also have remaining symptoms from my last game where I was like lynch bait for the entirety of day 2 and even a while into day 3 until the other people started pulling their weight (and I started not trying to -- obvious reasons), so I'm not trying to drag those sniper scopes on my face and wasting one day for a town that would love to lynch me into oblivion. You in particular have seemed very forthcoming in regards to lynching me, perhaps that backs my soft scumread on you? I think you're just being a simpleton here. That's an insult, yes, but I'm stating what I think of your recent behavior.lane0168 wrote:Then he added that he was saving other Townies from throwing their money away. He has a straight. Honestly why would he care about other Townies throwing their money to him if he knows he town? Why would he care of he was scum? He wouldn't either way. This is a contrived excuse.
Once again, seeing lane's play as scum was nearly my first thought on that (gut feeling just said "eat him").In post 188, Something_Smart wrote:Time for a few questions.
[...]
MM (refer to 90), why wasn't 42 a big leap to take? Did the idea occur to you when you called? Why was my post (16) a "candid dream", and how did that not stand out to you?
Still to MM, when did you realize the top tier abilities were $1250 and not $1000? Why did you obviously invent new reasons to back up your call after the fact? What is your read on lane? Do you have any reads stronger than the ones expressed in 90?
I am. This is my second game with people who actually know how to play. What makes you say I'm not?lane0168 wrote:@the mm, why are you letting people think you're a noobie, when you're not
I am. This is my second game with people who actually know how to play. What makes you say I'm not?[/quote]lane0168 wrote:@the mm, why are you letting people think you're a noobie, when you're not
I don't have a definite plan in head, so I'm open to suggestions. The Tracker shot is tempting me as the most obviously townie ability of choice, then again I don't know who I'd track. The Tracker shot has the advantage of being refunded if the target does nothing.Persivul wrote:MM, if you end up with your current cash at end of phase, what will you do with it, and why?
This is highlighting RC as potential scum. I just registered it as a nastier townie but yeah, I'd like to see RC's input before scumreading.In post 203, MagnaofIllusion wrote:[...]
So Lane had a stupidly bad hand. I want to see your full thought process now that we see that is indeed a fact.In post 114, RedCoyote wrote:I have not characterized my lane read as a townread. I do not think the evidence is there to call him a scumread, however. Should he have a bad hand, I will reassess at that time.Yeah, I had forgotten you hopped on MM. Why did you just happen to hop on the biggest wagon again?In post 138, RedCoyote wrote:I'm already voting, actually. Did you see the Vote Count?This reaction seems a little odd to me given Kappy was set to auto-fold in under 7 hours.In post 155, Persivul wrote:Sorry, but I didn't join a poker-themed game to get one crappy hand and then have to wait forever for the next deal.So what exactly did the hands show you then?In post 161, Persivul wrote:No reason to change before the showdown. The hands might tell us something.
I played a lot of them, something like 14, but they were never played seriously. Full of leaks, day phases that lasted 3 days or less, perpetual RVS or outside-reason-based voting (outside of swingy setups). If you want the full curriculum, please go bother wgeurts instead. But seriously, this isn't real mafia, this only teaches you the basic mechanics, which is why Ilook like I'm swimming fine. But this never taught me to read people, much less actually judging my own actions in hindsight, so I'm swimming in all directions without really knowing where I'm going. My knowledge of Mafia is still passable and rudimentary, so I count myself as a newbie.Infinity 324 wrote:I do want mm to respond about the games he played off-site though.
I feel like you're trying to make me snap at you. i've already explained that most of these games taught me nothing about serious play like in here. This is entirely different. I will be holding that newbie tag until I prove I'm competent. Is that even true yet? I doubt it.In post 222, lane0168 wrote:15 games played and 3 games hosted. And a read through your first game, tells me you really shouldn't be hiding behind a noobie tag. But it's a pretty convenient way out that people suggest you're a newbie and you do nothing to explain even that you've played 14 games and hosted 3 elsewhere, regardless of the quality of those games
Why not? Persivul looks kinda shady and wildcard-ish to me, but I understand the vote against lane.In post 231, Infinity 324 wrote:You have any other reads? Why vote lane over persivul?
I can't even believe he's saying this just like that. Assassin, I don't know if it's a good idea to get the most fingers of suspicion cast on you.In post 256, Fire Assassin wrote:Not much, and Probably.In post 255, Infinity 324 wrote:What's up, are you scum?
- I did like Infinity's 219 too, but that's mostly due to bias.In post 280, Something_Smart wrote:Infinity's looking fairly towny with his 219 and 220.
Argument over MM's experience is longer than it needs to be.
232: @MM what about the things you mentioned that Persivul did was scum indicative?
The confidence in 242 in my experience is more likely to come from scum.
276: yes, you should do that.
Because I am a newbie. But you're confusing "newbie" with "bad. I'm bad only relatively to you, maybe, because I'm not good at reading people.In post 265, qubixes wrote:Choose? Why draw the newbie card, when you consider yourself at least not bad?In post 195, The MM wrote: I am [a noobie]. This is my second game with people who actually know how to play. What makes you say I'm not?
VOTE: The MM
Ain't ya got nuthin' better to say?lane0168 wrote:Wow, that's bad.
You're just waiting for a wagon to hop on?BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Any chance of a real wagon developing?
That's true, but right now I have a bunch of cards in my hands (not as far as poker goes, I folded), because I can Commute or Rolestop myself to avoid getting killed, or bank on the fact that scum expects me to to track peepz instead (or do anything else). Really, the scum just gave a focal point to the mindgames played on them now, and that focus is me.Persivul wrote:The role fishing charge is terrible in this setup. The people with enough money to buy roles is public knowledge, and scum will be motivated to kill those people.In post 283, FA_Q2 wrote:Persivul is next because of his reaction to me calling him out on role fishing. Rather than engage me on it he sidestepped it and went OMGUS with a bullshit reason.
You know, the scale of being good and bad isn't exactly one-dimensional. There's about as many scales as there are aspects to Mafia, which is a lot. But if you want to make a flat scale, bother to adjust the levels. It'd more look like this:In post 340, qubixes wrote:@MM: I can't really follow the logic. [Mafia scum Pro's ---- you ------ Mafia scum newbies ------ everyone else] Like that from good to bad?In post 296, The MM wrote:Because I am a newbie. But you're confusing "newbie" with "bad. I'm bad only relatively to you, maybe, because I'm not good at reading people.
I agree with the basic idea. Lane looks pretty townish to me now.Infinity 324 wrote:I like MoI's defense of mm, but lane has no reason to go all in as scum if mm is town, which basically debunks a large part of the case on him. (I didn't think it was scummy in the first played, I tried to bluff too cause I wasn't used to this many players in a poker game). Lane and mm are both town guys. Seriously.
It only takes one slip, you know. But so far I've somewhat liked MoI's vibes -- barring that. Once again, pure gut...Infinity 324 wrote:I don't like how MoI is using a meta argument to try to prove he's town and not having paranoia that he might be wrong on rc again, but ehh his other posts have been so town
What's so wrong about it. I called to break the idea, just not in the most effective way. Other reasons are at the side.In post 340, qubixes wrote:Here he basically tells us that he tried to do something good for town by calling, through breaking scum's plan. The word "to" is the important bit, if he said "I called and I broke that" for example, it would be a different thing. His response wasn't very convincing, giving all sorts of reasons why he called, and saying that I/we are reading too much into it. It just seems to me he tried to look like a white knight fighting for the good of town.
You're assuming it made things worse, but you're not even saying "it's an easy way for scum to break debate" or any reason though.In post 340, qubixes wrote:Admitting to try and look town because of pressure. Admitting it doesn't really make it better in my opinion.In post 128, The MM wrote:That was the plan in a shellnut, though you put it to parody levels. But wanting to look as Town as possible is not limited to scum.In post 107, MagnaofIllusion wrote:The bad part of MM’s full readslist is not that it is not strong. I don’t expect that on Page 4. Why it may be an example of scum play is it appeared right after MM had drawn a couple votes (Infinity and Lane) and has the feel of “Have to post content to look Town before a wagon develops”.
Scum are usually more careful; I trust this applies to myself too -- but you wouldn't know. Also, there's a difference between one play and the player. One bad play does not necessarily make a bad player.In post 340, qubixes wrote:In post 88, The MM wrote: And to all of you who say I'm playing bad, that's normal: this is my second game here, and it's months after my first due to a quite tense situation I got into IRL. As for being hasty, I was: one of the primal needs of the human body is sleep, and I was in lack of it. I'll be coming up with a readslist as well as I can, but keep in mind that didn't help me much in my first game so don't be surprised if I only dig myself deeper and you end up lynching me.In the first quote he tells people to keep in mind that he might be playing bad, because it is only his second game etc. So, he is pre-emptively defending himself with the newbie/being bad card. Then in the second quote he says that he wouldn't be so bad and transparent as scum. I think he's using both sides of the argument here.In post 97, The MM wrote:Your votes for me basically say I'm transparent scum, guys; which would mean I'm bad. I'm not.
My reads are null with very soft leans in case you can read and spot them.
You did. By the way, I'm late for that but... NO!In post 484, lane0168 wrote:Did I honestly just say "just so you NO"?! Wow
And how so? You're not just thinking of brutalizing people into voting someone else without presenting evidence, are you?In post 509, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:We're both being sensible. Except for now you're voting me when we should be voting MM.
Normally I should find this offensive, but I think lane has a point there. BBT has been relatively unhelpful.In post 513, lane0168 wrote:I'm surprised and insulted you expect people to think you're townIn post 498, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Not at all. I'm much more surprised, and insulted, that you think this is indicative of my scum play.
But the poker stuff IS a minigame, Fire. Also, that plan relies on trust in one player to work. If that player is scum, town's screwed. Besides, there's no such thing as a universally-townread player in here.In post 551, Fire Assassin wrote:Anyone want to comment on my plan to throw games so one of us tomorrow gets BP and good abiliites?
Or we just going to treat the poker stuff as a mini game?
Basically, I was just telling him to shut it and let conversations (real ones) happen. Also, it's a very soft scumread on the premise that he's alienating discussion, which is anti-town.In post 558, FA_Q2 wrote:Why mention that you do not 'like' fire and then suddenly say it is not alignment indicative? Why mention it at all then?In post 446, The MM wrote:Jeesh, the animosity. I'm starting to lose track of where the debate ends and where it begins...
Fire is stirring too much things up. That's not a playstyle, that's nearly comms sabotage.
I feel like Fire only sees the game by "himself and the rest" given how he said lane was unresponsive while he hadn't answeredto him, andyet(seeing as lane ninja'd me).
I don't consider this competence.
Ccl: I don't like Fire Assassin. I won't say it's alignment-indicative, but it's in no way town.
I don't like this post at all...
First off, you're scum. Now we're even. If you don't feel how stupid this sounds, you are bad and you should feel bad.In post 566, Fire Assassin wrote:First off, you are scum.In post 562, The MM wrote:But the poker stuff IS a minigame, Fire. Also, that plan relies on trust in one player to work. If that player is scum, town's screwed. Besides, there's no such thing as a universally-townread player in here.
By the way, crappy hand: Fold.
Second of the mini game helps us with the main game, its not just simple tacked on gimmick to keep us busy during the main game. We can use it to get closer to our win condition in the main game. By using the mechanics to our advantage, do you not get that?
We can't do what i am suggesting today, but I think we throw some games to Farside/Persivul tomorrow to get them some items/roles to use like BP and Tracker.
And yes, there is rarely a "universal" town read, but there is usually one enough people can agree on that is appropriate like 80% of us agree one player is town, its probably likely they are in fact town.
Sure, I'll ISO s_s.In post 583, Infinity 324 wrote:I'm bored and this game is going nowhere. Someone talk to me about s_s
You're making a misassumption. I'm only saying "you are scum" with no backup to the claim as an imitation of him to prove how his argumentary sucks. Everything else you need to know about what I think of him is in my previous posts anyway.In post 588, farside22 wrote:Mm: why are you scum reading fire?
To all of you americans.In post 732, lane0168 wrote:Lol happy 4th of July
Sometimes, things are better unchanged. I've always felt that FA_Q2 was scumhunting and we butted heads because he scumread me at some point.In post 757, Something_Smart wrote:That's the thing.In post 756, The MM wrote:Where did I scumread FA_Q2? Oh, that's right. Nowhere. My opinion of him never changed.
Why have you been consistently calling FA town and trying to direct people away from him without showing any evidence of trying to sort him?
And the way you say "why would I be scumbuddies with FA_Q2" implies that there is a compelling reason for younotto be buddies. Since you pointed to none and there is none, it comes off simply as desperation at being caught.
Now you're trying to defend anything I say about him by simply contradicting my assertions, and conceding but waving away the things you can't contradict.
I feel really good about this lynch now.
Fire, you misunderstand "not calling you scum" for "reading you as town".Fire Assassin wrote:You have stated you thought I was town implicitly at least 2-3 times or at the very least no alignment. You have stated I was scum after I was voting you and pressuring you. This post screams more scumminess in various places that I dont' think I need to point out.
Just because of how fast you went on it, with no justification whatsoever at that. It's not a hard scumread but it's suspicious to me.In post 772, lane0168 wrote:@the mm, please explain why me starting the fire wagon is scummy for hopping on the fire wagon?
I was there before you man. I know this sounds hipster as shit, but I get the feel it's only after I pushed my idea that you went there.In post 774, lane0168 wrote:And by fast you mean the fastest? As in first? After previously scum reading him?
QFT.In post 822, Shadow_step wrote:Seriously??!!In post 821, Fire Assassin wrote:We should all be following the plan of betting and giving the hands to our townread.
Right now I am curious on that kill?
BBT wasn't really trying in the game if my memory serves right.
If you give a lot of money to a single player and IF they are town, scum know who they should NK.
If your townread is scum then lol.
First, maybe wait up: there was over 1 day before the deadline.Shadow_step wrote:Attempting to put shade on lane here without really committing to it.
VOTE: MM
What would you have done differently?
Are you meaning that we should look at the reads made during day 1 and take them completely opposite? Who didn't even get real votes on? Who looks in control?In post 825, Something_Smart wrote:I think I understand the BBT kill. It strikes me as kind of a "don't rock the boat" kill, to eliminate a strong player who hadn't really contributed much this far.
It reminds me of the droog kill in this game.
And I think what it suggests is that town's collective reads are way off, as they were in that game. I'm very disappointed that my MM/FA theory didn't end up being true, and I think that flip means that MM is town too. I definitely want to take a closer look at farside once again.
@Shadow: if only one person wins a hand in any given day, they will be bulletproof the following night. That's the mechanic that Fire wants to (ab)use by throwing hands to townreads.
I won a hand, I was freaking Bulletproof. Read'em rules.In post 830, lane0168 wrote:Wait, why did I vote something_smart?
VOTE: the mm
Why aren't you dead? You had a lot of money
There was one day. Of course it did.In post 831, lane0168 wrote:Did it look like shadow was going to really more? He said he was reading, and went straight for intent to hammer and had time to talk . I'm not letting a replacement in that spot get a hammer. The day has gone on long enough.
What do you think shadow would've said that he couldn't say today? Or that would change the lynch? Nothing.
Plus you're probably scum so I'm not sure why I expect your case to make sense
No. I tried.
Scum didn't no-kill because no-killing is useless in nearly all circumstances. Killing BBT was always going to be more efficient than no one.In post 854, lane0168 wrote:Really? Why didn't they no kill then? How do you know scum aren't afraid of a tracker? And why isn't it smart for town to use a tracker?
What did the mm do last night?
I could afford it. It cost 1000$, I had 1160 or something. So yes, I bought it.In post 856, lane0168 wrote:He can't afford it... So what about it?
Getting town vengefuls - known vengefuls - is ASKING for scum to go around and kill them later on. That has some bad points because welp, everybody knows this is who they're going after. But it has some good points in that a vengeful who survives is likely scum - but at this point killing them costs us a townie.In post 866, lane0168 wrote:Here's the deal, if we don't get to use the items the night we buy them, we can't afford not to get all the powers.
If the mm bought the tracker, that's 4500 dollars left out there?
We need to get 2 people 1250. They can both get vengeful. This is the least we should try for.
2000 left. We get 2 people around 750. They can get jail keeper.
We'll go for who we think is Towniest?
That way we have the maximum abilities might 3?
Reading the rules is not only for scum.lane0168 wrote:Scum would definitely know only people on the lynch get money.
Town make obvious mistakes like that.
Its in the rules.
Therefore you're scum
To all of you munchkin rules-lawyers, slip police and other self-righteous jackasses: I thought that Bulletproof went to any player who won his hand by himself. Ties can happen, and all.Shadow_step wrote:I think its bullshit.In post 886, lane0168 wrote:@shadow, how do you feel about about the mm using being bulletproof as an explanation for why he wasn't killed last night, when yesterday he commented on a plan to get one person to win so they were bulletproof, saying that plan relies on trust in one player to work? Also after something_smart talked about the rule?In post 562, The MM wrote:But the poker stuff IS a minigame, Fire. Also, that plan relies on trust in one player to work. If that player is scum, town's screwed. Besides, there's no such thing as a universally-townread player in here.In post 551, Fire Assassin wrote:Anyone want to comment on my plan to throw games so one of us tomorrow gets BP and good abiliites?
Or we just going to treat the poker stuff as a mini game?
By the way, crappy hand:Fold.
I'm folding because I have no interest in tossing the little that remains of my money to the first lucjy guy, that's pretty much that. Antes will probably eat at the rest of my wallet like popcorn but it barely matters at this point.In post 930, Fire Assassin wrote:Bet $40
I have no idea why everyone is folding when we can organize this much better.
Just frustrating me and I am probably going to stop talking about this mechanic and just focusing on scumhunting.
I have town reads on Lane and Wingback,
I feel pretty confident on those, I am thinking that MM is scum, but unsure of allies still.
Something Smart possibly not sure on who with?
Farside I am null on but I could possibly see it.
TOo many preflip asosciations.
I say we flip MM today and if we are wrong we can reaccess.
ANyone elses thoughts? (Not on the poker mechanics that we obviously can't do)
All your monies are belong to me, which ofc would make me lynch bait because scum wants the power roles dead. It's one of the few cases whereIn post 954, lane0168 wrote:Really? So you're completely writing off the possibility for the mm scum as well. Brilliant. Absolutely fucking brilliant. The mm can't possibly be scum. The only explanation is he must be mislynch bait. What the fuck? There are several reasons he should be lynched. Love how he's one of the leading wagons all day yesterday and all of a sudden hes lynch bait.
I don't like the term "frazzled" for some reason. Going against the flow is kind of in my personality, especially when the flow is dictated by other people.In post 957, Infinity 324 wrote:He seems like frazzled noob town the whole game and has been going against the flow mainly. He seems to believe what he says.In post 954, lane0168 wrote:Infinity. Why is the mm town then? Why do you townread him?
Pish. I already folded anyway. Heck I don't even care about being all-in at this point, I just wanna choose who I'm giving my monies to.In post 971, lane0168 wrote:On the next hand, I want the mm to bet 300. He should have no problem with this, because if he doesn't have that much money, it can't go through.
Notice how doing this hastily can lead to scum getting PRs, laneplz.lane0168 wrote:So if you were town youd realize the only way to get power roles was to maximize poker hands
I'd bet $1000, but hey, I folded already.lane0168 wrote:Nice. I'm actually not sure how much money you have mm. So just bet 500 so we can be sure. I just want to know you bought tracker. Then we know for sure someone needs 1250. It's the town thing to do.
The primary use is depriving scum of these roles. No lynch-stall or reward for getting lynched. But it's a major waste of town's money. Then again, town's uses for JK is scarce and it can just whiff entirely without refund, etc... Honestly, to my eyes, nothing is as worth as a tracker - except maybe the neighborizer, and even then.Shadow_step wrote:I don't understand(?)In post 983, lane0168 wrote:Nice. I'm actually not sure how much money you have mm. So just bet 500 so we can be sure. I just want to know you bought tracker. Then we know for sure someone needs 1250. It's the town thing to do.
What is the use of governor or vengeful to town ?
Oh, given what I know, I can take guesses as to why I'm still alive with Lane's money free for use, thank you very much Mr. NoonehastherighttothinkthingsIdont.In post 995, Fire Assassin wrote:No, no, no, no.In post 970, The MM wrote:I'm folding because I have no interest in tossing the little that remains of my money to the first lucjy guy, that's pretty much that. Antes will probably eat at the rest of my wallet like popcorn but it barely matters at this point.
Lynching me is exactly what scum want you to do; it's the reason they left me alive in the first place since I wasn't BP. Now consider why I was left alive.
Possibly seeing me and farside as scum is kinda dumb imo, considering I've said I'm kinda scared of scum!farside, maybe you were too busy drowning in your own made-up scumtells on me to notice.
Lynching me is wasting the Tracker shot. This is complete and utter town sabotage, since the Tracker shot isn't given to anyone. This entire plan is dumbnut.
You can't explain why scum left you alive, you can let others speculate, but you can't say "I am a mislynch bait" that makes it all null. Self awareness of the situation can be more scummy than town, if you understand you are likely lynch target that isn't more scummy I don't think, but its definitely not points in your favor.
And we all wanted you to fold anyways, because you are a scum suspect, why would we want you to win?
Also, why are you attacking you and farside as alignment but not any of my others, why does that sound more ridiculous beyond "I am scared of scum farside!" cause that doesn't sound like a actual reason for you two not being aligned?
Then you call my scumtells "fake", listen if I am faking it, I am scum, right?
WHy do i get sense of you keep going back and forth between wanting to call me town and wanting to call me just hard scum but don't want to commit.
This sounds like something scum would say. Why would they kill Infinity? Oh yeah, to push for my mislynch some more, since Infinity's the only guy with the right idea on me.In post 1014, Fire Assassin wrote:Don't bother to pretend to skim, you are dying tonight regardless.In post 1013, Infinity 324 wrote:Alright you're going to have to say them again, I certainly haven't seen any good reason to scumread mm. It's possible I skimmed over them cause I really just didn't see it.
Shooting scum? With what? You can't even. Now you're just being a retard.In post 1016, Fire Assassin wrote:Shooting scum is always good idea.In post 1015, Infinity 324 wrote:It's really not a good idea to kill me tonight.
Discrediting me for my past game as town? Yeah right, great idea. This is bullshit. Scumflag for the pointless-ass shade casting.farside22 wrote:No he doesn't.In post 999, Infinity 324 wrote:MM may not have strong reads, but he definitely has strong opinions...
I agree with the part where there's no case on MM.
His opponent ions are weak as shit.
"Fire is scum because he called me scum" "farside is scum because she scares me as scum"
Ignoring is one past game played on this site from you is horse shit.
1) It's a metaphor. I barely see anyone questioning farside.In post 1023, Fire Assassin wrote:Few things here:In post 1022, The MM wrote:Also, I was scared of scum!farside because you (as well as a bunch of other people) are just licking her feet and guess what? She's antagonizing me too. It's worth a scumread. Keep in mind, y'all were scumreading Magna, but now farside has replaced it's like she's town regardless of slot. Disgusting.
I don't exactly recall where I called your reads fake, but I think my scumread on you is set in stone. The more I tried to play like you're town, the more you make me scumread you. I read you as scum for life, and so until the game proves me wrong, but one thing's for sure, you won't.
1) When has anyone been licking Farside boots and
2) Where has anyone called her strong town? or even massively switched reads on the slot?
I know I have her as weak town at best right now and thats a recent development.
Your scumread is "set in stone"? Okay. Good work.
You would definitely have killed me if given the chance last night. This is a fakeclaim for sure. Even if there is a power role, I'm sure it's NOWHERE this powerful. Because really in this way you don't benefit from anyone getting money from poker hands.In post 1024, Fire Assassin wrote:I am a vigilante. Do you think the only power roles town has are the ones from these poker matches? Ha, that's funny.In post 1022, The MM wrote:Shooting scum? With what? You can't even. Now you're just being a retard.
In the end, it's but a few dollars but lane really wants to see it, so go ahead and laugh at how puny my 500$ actually are like.In post 1052, lane0168 wrote:Waiting on the mm to bet 500
I think I'm going to require proof that Fire is town, because nothing he does is town. Even though I'm guilty of the game philosophy I accused him of having (playing for myself only), at least I have the excuse of being scumread by all the guys who can't be bothered to really know how I play; I need one thing that says he's town. I find none.Shadow_step wrote:What in their interactions makes you think that ?In post 1046, RedCoyote wrote:SS and Fire is town-town, who else is going to have the balls to say this?
If the first 4 are misinterpreted, I think you should go and check around the next 90 or so. Voluntary ignoring.In post 1071, farside22 wrote:Ugh I hate getting interrupted!!!
This is going to be sloppy.
I didn't read the long post by MM. The first 4 along was misinterpretation big time.
Second I'm a replacement here. I didn't sign up to see how many players started this game so I naturally assumed mini theme being 12 to 13 players. Rc should be lynched for making no case and sitting up the thread.
Mm should be lynched because he's scum.
I fully endorse my own lynch just so people will look hard as fuck at rc and his complete lack of scum hunting this game day and day 1.
I got to go now.
Welp, my money would get eaten up by antes in a few hands or so because I have like $100 or a bit more left. I have no reliable way to make it 550 in short time, so I figure keeping these few pennies to me has no use.In post 1074, Infinity 324 wrote:Seriously, you just gave away your money?In post 1058, The MM wrote:In the end, it's but a few dollars but lane really wants to see it, so go ahead and laugh at how puny my 500$ actually are like.In post 1052, lane0168 wrote:Waiting on the mm to bet 500
Raise $500Now shut up and take my money.
If you guys think this is scum I don't even
Fold
Just ISO him. I'm sure he has a big absence period.In post 1075, Infinity 324 wrote:I could also see RC as scum btw, I don't remember any of his posts since I stopped scumreading him d1 and that's probably a bad thing.
I didn't know it was written in the rules that you had to be an ass. I remember a Vig forcing me along, but at least for all the douchebaggery he played his Vig with he had the decency to threaten townies with his Vig shot as a scumhunting plan. You have no such excuse for behaving like a complete douchebag like you do right now.In post 1076, Fire Assassin wrote:This game isn't worth the headache:
VOTE: MMDon't remember why I was voting SS over MM, but he is also in my scum pool. Shooting Infinity tonight. MM gets lynched today.
That about settles it.
1- Not my thing to answer.In post 1089, Wingback wrote:Catching up from page twenty-one. Finished up to page thirty-eight. I wanted to get current but I'm totally exhausted and there are a lot of recent walls so I'll get to those tomorrow.
1) Who is this oppposition? 2) What wagons were they trying to form? 3) How did you stop them (links to posts and arguments you made where your arguments derailed a wagon)?In post 506, RedCoyote wrote:I think you and Pers directly pushed MM more than I did, but I think I was most effective at stopping the opposition, so to speak, from forming other wagons outside of MM.
What does acting on a poker hand have anything to do with alignment?In post 597, RedCoyote wrote:Also, farside, you must act on your poker hand in your next post or you will get scum points from me. Same with Wingback. I'm putting you two on notice.
Scum white-knighting town is not uncommon, and if he's a bit "too nice," why is he your top townread?In post 709, The MM wrote:Infinity feels a bit too nice to me, white-knighting and whatnot, but he's still my top townread because I doubt he's scum hiding behind that to make a friend of me
You had your vote on MM before you moved it to FA_Q2. Why does an FA_Q2 townflip mean that MM is town? If you didn't have independent reasons to think he was scum, why were you voting him?In post 825, Something_Smart wrote:I'm very disappointed that my MM/FA theory didn't end up being true, and I think that flip means that MM is town too.
Hate the hedging here. Defends Farside against Shadow while at the same time setting up to push Farside. Why even add that last bit?In post 829, The MM wrote:Self-consciousness isn't a scumtell though. If I didn't have a lane to vote for, I'd be doing the same. Farside's next post better be convincing tho.
100% agree with Lane's Post 888. In fact, nearly everything The MM said this game sounds like bullshit.
This doesn't make any sense. If you correctly thought that "In post 912, The MM wrote:I thought that Bulletproof went to any player who won his hand by himself. Ties can happen, and all.if only a single player wins a hand on any Day phase they will be Bulletproof the following Night phase", as it mentions in the OP, then you would know that you weren't bulletproof since I won a hand too. If you incorrectly thought that all players who won hands in a day became bulletproof that night, why didn't you as Lane said, suggest that we all win a hand?
Why Farside as opposed to say, RedCoyote? It seemed to me that RedCoyote and BBT knew each other well from the past. When BBT got killed, that was the first person I considered looking back at.In post 912, The MM wrote:I'll voice another suspicion of mine: farside sounds to me like the kind of "in-control" self-defined intelligent people who I'd expect a BBT kill from. VOTE: farside
I find that hard to believe. Played with him in Mini 1800. He was scum there and suspected plenty but he stuck with the game and his team ended up winning. If you are actually arguing that you think he left the game because he was scum and afraid of getting pressured, that's a ridiculous assumption. You've spent most of D1 telling Farside how you and she are town together but a BBT kill suddenly makes you decide that your townreads are wrong? This reads opportunistic considering Farside was getting some heat from a few others as well.In post 913, RedCoyote wrote:[MoI] may have wanted to get out of dodge this game because he thought he was setting himself up to get pressured.
This isn't accurate. BBT was your top scumread but when did FA_Q2 become one of your biggest scumreads? All you said about FA_Q2 was that you are not opposed to his lynch but you didn't think that was the best we could do which sounds like you had him as null at worst. You said the same for MM but MM seemed to be a higher scumread than FA_Q2. Why do BBT and FA_Q2 flipping town means you throw all your D1 scumreads out the window? In fact, BBT hopped onto the MM wagon putting him at L-1 which was what triggered you to jump off of MM and go for BBT instead. Now that we know BBT was in fact town, that should alleviate at least some of your reservations about an MM lynch.In post 916, RedCoyote wrote:I guess you just skimmed over the part where I said I had to essentially rethink my entire game and throw D1 out the window. Two of my biggest scumreads just flipped town.
That's the end of page thirty-eight. Going to get current tomorrow. I have a few comments on optimal poker strategy as well which I'll get into, and then summarize all my reads in detail.
Lane, think of it a second. You were scumreading me for keeping my money, and now you're still scumreading me for keeping it.In post 1098, lane0168 wrote:But why did you check wingback? Literally nobody suspected that slot
Is that a reason not to? No, it's not.lane0168 wrote:But why did you check wingback? Literally nobody suspected that slot.
What part of "keep your money is a scumclaim" doesn't mean that you'll scumread me for keeping my money?In post 1103, lane0168 wrote:@the mm, I was never scum reading you for keeping your money. You continually respond to things that were never said. If you had kept your money that would be a scum claim. Scum still benefit from buying the tracker, and in fact if you are scum, I'm not surprised that's what you did. However, I'm willing to see where your tracker goes tonight.
Quotes aren't important, I included what you said was Townie, and why its not.