Mafia 158: Titanium. Game over

[Maenara]

The Mafia engages in crime, and hence consists of criminals. Pirates are also criminals, and moreover, 'Mollie' is clearly an extremely unsubtle anagram for 'Mafia', as long as you substitute a few letters. You really couldn't have made it any easier for us.

VOTE: pirate mollie

Also, Myko, would you please start looking for a replacement for Harpo? He has made a total of five posts, he never picked up the Role PM for his Newbie game, and he hasn't been on the site since the day after he joined. Let's face it - He's dead, Jim.

[Maenara]

FoS: Smashbard

Whoop whoop, theory discussion. Me no likey. Let it it be said that I think RVS has advantages, and let that be it from me on that topic.

VOTE: Unvote
VOTE: Eleison

Never, ever, ever do that there. "I'd feel more comfortable revealing it later"? Really? You're either

trying

to get shot, or you're trying to breadcrumb (What's a more unsubtle version? Dropping a loaf would be misunderstood, though the connotations thereof are fitting as well) your way out of a future lynch. Me definitely no likey. If you didn't want stuff known, you shouldn't have said it in the first place. Explain now.

[Maenara]

Headache. May not have read everything properly yet, so I'd like to stay out of the Smashbard-Hikari-Pacman threeway of unreadable-to-newbies-ness for now. Might give that an extra careful read tonight, but more likely it'll be tomorrow or Wednesday. For the rest:

VOTE: Unvote

Eleison is playing poorly, but bad town-play is bad-townplay, not scum-play. I don't like the reaction, and I'm going to be extremely distrustful of any roleclaim made by <pronoun of choice>, but it's not the most scummy thing I've seen yet.

That, you see, goes to...

VOTE: pirate mollie!

Not-so-subtle attack at the person who RVSed you - by indicating that they're lurking, no less, in spite of it only having been roughly 21 hours since said person's last post, and the majority of said hours (Read: About fourteen) having been spent asleep or engaged in that fearsome thing we know as education - followed by an attempt to link together two other players, making observations and poking for reactions, but not committing to anything at all.

You say you're not new to Mafia? I say you're scum.

[Maenara]

Let's get this straight.

Pirate Mollie, who in her very first post tries to incriminate the person who voted for her during the RVS, is now accusing me of OMGUSing for pointing out her lack of commitment and her attempt to stoke as many fires as possible in order to leave all doors open. Meanwhile, Eleison, whose only noteable post so far has been blatant breadcrumbing/softclaiming, criticizes the play of everyone else, and then continues to ... ... Do absolutely nothing? Not try to lead by example at all?

Heheheheno. Don't do that, please?

[Maenara]

...how did you even reach

that

asinine conclusion?

[Maenara]

Hiraki, a short comment on what I was trying to say: You're all experienced players, or at least more so than me. Because of this, the assumptions made by you might not be as easily parsed by those of us who haven't played for as long. It was not meant as a point of criticism, but merely an explanation of why I didn't touch on that part of the thread - It's quite simply harder to get a decent read out of that discussion when you're new, compared to, say, trying to get a rise out of Eleison or Pirate.

This might not have been as clear as I wanted it to be, but I'll blame that on the aforementioned headache.

[Maenara]

I'm really having trouble getting any reads on quite a few of the players here. However, after doing a few Isos in a feeble attempt to be able to do anything at all, here's what I've got.

Spoiler: Town (Strongest to weakest)

Hikari
evilpacman18
Slandaar
McStab
Smashbard
Telo
Thurhame
Jun

Spoiler: Scum (Strongest to weakest)

NJAC
Eleison
pirate mollie
Jun
Theomoaner

Spoiler: Needs more activity

Dividizzle
Shinori
PMysterious

Why, then, do I vote for Pirate Mollie? Because she's bad for town. Like, terribad. In all seriousness, I don't get why she's allowed to continue to exist. She's slinging around accusations based on concepts she clearly doesn't understand, she was straight up lying, concerning me "fading", and she's trying to game the mod. It's just not something we should allow to continue. If not a lynch, I plead for any hypothetical vigilante or similar to put her out of our misery - I know that some might say that her flailing will allow us to determine her alignment on a later day, but all too often, on other sites, I've seen hordes of people with play so bad that one cannot possibly tell their scum from their town, because both are just that anti-town. She really is the typical VI.

And if not Pirate Mollie, then NJAC or Eleison. For the latter, a policy lynch would be appropriate, what with deliberately causing anti-town WIFOM with the hinting and all, as well as the theorycrafting. As for the former...

Look at his ISO. He is definitely not saying enough, chooses to defend a person he sees is under attack in order to establish later town-cred. When then accused of this, he keeps doing it in order to not attract attention by altering his play, but still defends himself against the allegations, before proceeding to... Vote for the person attacking his accusor, calling said person opportunistic and then being so himself?

Methink this is scum trying to establish some town cred for later use.

[Maenara]

Meh. Suppose so.

UNVOTE: pirate mollie
VOTE: NJAC

Want more pressure on that one.

[Maenara]

I put Jun in both.

Totally wasn't an accident either. Nope. Not at all. Srsly, though, I have very little idea about Jun. And yes, of course my read on you is contingent on what others would flip, but that's the case for everyone. Hell, that's why we don't just choose all the lynches on D1.

Reads: Mostly gut. Shan't explain more than necessary, especially not if you're the one inquiring.

[Maenara]

on other sites, I've seen hordes of people with play so bad that one cannot possibly tell their scum from their town,

That's sort of the point of the game isn't it? Not to play badly but to play so that no one can guess your allignment from game to game.

The point is to play so

well

that nobody can tell your scum from your town.

[Maenara]

We love you too, Hiraki.

But fine, the overwhelming consesus has persuaded me to believe that Pirate Mollie is probably just NewbTown. Even so, if there is a vig or something, I don't think Eleison or Pirate Mollie would be the worst possible targets. I'd honestly like to be rid of them, one way or the other, and if it so happens that they die instead of a more useful player, heh, who's complaining?

[Maenara]

Nope, buddying won't work.

Also, your arguments against you breadcrumbing a role on P1 is based on the assumption that you are not, in fact, an idiot. The arguments for you doing so are based on empirical evidence.

[Maenara]

slandaar. I thought we were going to work together.

Gogo buddy admission?

[Maenara]

This is straying a bit close to discussion of ongoing games, isn't it?

[Maenara]

Jun, your only reason for defending NJAC so far is meta from one game.

That's bad.

[Maenara]

Smash, just saying, but there is such a thing as a difference between compromising on P1 and switching from one major scumread which seems unlynchable to a slightly lesser scumread which seems far more popular. Hell, I mainly switched

off

Mollie because she seemed unlynchable. I'd say my read has since muddled, but that'd be a bit of a lie - It never was clear to start with; I just think she's a severely harmful VI who should be policy lynched. If she is scum, not lynching her today will give her basically free reins the rest of the game, because, hey, what can top this? If she's town, she'll continue to clutter up the thread with nonsense, the way she has been, which will distract us from the actual scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pirate Mollie

L-5.

[Maenara]

@Hiraki: Basically, I think he's an opportunistic lurker. Of course, he's gonna get prodded soon, so it may just be that he's flaking. We'll see.

[Maenara]

Smashbard, stop it.

Hiraki may be bitchy all around, but you are doing personal attacks on specific players. That's not cool. Attack people's playstyles as much as you want, but don't descend to this level. That sort of behaviour is far more childish than any "Me no likey" or grouchy snarkiness, and it goes against the spirit of the game. Yes, we need to be able to get people emotional, to make them slip up, but there are limits to everything. With all due respect, I think you've overstepped that particular threshold.

...and as for Eleison making sense; are we even reading the same game?

[Maenara]

That's not to say I'm going to put my vote on any of them in an attempt to "pressure" them into posting more.

Never works.

@MOD: Can we have prods on Maenara, Shinori, PMysterious and McStab please.

Sometimes works.

No, you bloody well can't, what with it not being three days since I posted.

[Maenara]

We'll hold you to that, then.

[Maenara]

Jun, stop defending people via month-old meta. It's not solid enough.

We would get tons of valuable information via a Mollie-lynch, but seeing as that won't happen...

UNVOTE: pirate mollie
VOTE: 10506670

Slandaar for president, Numbers for death! Gogo, scum-lynch the scum-slip.

[Maenara]

I've expressed an interest in working with Mollie several times but other than to identify me as an easy target she's ignored me all game.

I hope she hasn't given up because her level of participation provides plenty of game fodder. I'm willing to vote for her for several reasons:
1. If I vote for her she's at L-1. That's sufficient pressure if she wants to live she'll reengage.
2. If she has given up, we gain what information we can from her flip.
3. I don't see my vote on mysterious doing any good.
I will change my vote as soon as I get to a computer and can format.

Reread the latest page(s) and rewrite, please. Your data is outdated.

[Maenara]

I'm seeing a pattern here.

So am I. Namely, this game isn't going anywhere.

Now, I haven't been here a lot. There are a number of reasons for that, chief of which are physical illness, bad mood, and a serious wish to avoid having to read through this. Now that the former two are mostly gone, I had to do away with the third as well.

You people sure don't make it easy.

What we need, right now, if this game is to get anywhere, is a lynch. Not just any lynch, of course, but not because anyone is particularly indispensable - Only because we wouldn't be able to get just any lynch through. Whenever we find something legitimately scummy - and we have, multiple times - we split into damned fractions and get nowhere. Let's face it, a lot of us are bad players. For most of us who are, it's because we're new, but that doesn't change the facts. And so we tunnel on certain individuals, so we refuse to follow their leads, or those of the people who agree with them.

And we'll never get anywhere like that.

There's been a lot of activity already, there honestly has. It hasn't been a full Day 1 yet, but it's gotten a bit of the way. But we're stalling, because this is turning into a quagmire. So we need a target we can all agree on. Not necessarily the most scummy to any given person, but someone we can all agree that we need to remove.

That person is, of course,

Shinori

.

I don't want to lynch him the most. There are others who I find legitimately scummy. He's not so much one of them. But he is terrible. He has done nothing to move the game forward, what-so-ever, he has tunnelled almost solely on two players, and worst of all? He's said that he doesn't care if we lynch him.

No town ever says that when they're not in danger.

He's not the lynch Gotham wants, but he's the lynch Gotham needs.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shinori

[Maenara]

Yadda yadda. Yes, I'm not adding much to the game, much in the same way as I generally try to refrain from building houses on top of active volcanoes.

Would everyone be so kind as to

post your top-three lynch list, or your reasons for not releasing this

, as your very next post. That way, we might actually settle on an agreement, rather than just letting the mudslinging continue into day 2? Thank you.

This thread is a hassle to read, and we need a new day.

Personal list, no particular order:

Pirate Mollie
Shinori
Telo

[Maenara]

Smashbard, you're massively overestimating the worth of previous material. Evil, feel free to read from here on, with only occasional trips back into that mess. More ain't worth it.

I'm totally okay with a Shinori lynch. Nobody should say that they don't care if they're lynched. Let's see how he defends himself.

VOTE: Shinori

[Maenara]

Oh, and seeing as NJAC hasn't been replaced, I definitely want an explanation for his not voting yesterday. The same is the case for numberscum.

[Maenara]

The problem, in this game, with automatically declaring all lurkers scum is that, no matter how you put it, we have a lot of bad players. Yes, I'm amongst them, big surprise. Doesn't change that fact. And we've got people doing things they really shouldn't have. The only real activity is the Combi/Telo shouting match, Smash venting at everyone for doing nothing, and Theo bitching at everyone for doing nothing.

Yeah, we need to do something, but if this game is to get anywhere, lynching the worst offenders (I'm looking at Shinori here), would make it more readable

and

give us some info do actually analyze.

I'm more than willing to do isos on everyone and go back to trying to put proper effort into the game, but I want Shinori lynched first. If he's town, his prior statements indicate that he's not playing to his win condition. If he's scum, he needs to die. It's that simple.

[Maenara]

How does Eleison/NJAC/Unknown sound?

Shinori seems pretty cleared town by now. Thanks for deciding to become useful.

UNVOTE: Shinori

VOTE: Eleison

Yep yep. Early game was terrible, he's trying to fly under the radar after discussing it with his scumbuddies. He needs to die, so sayeth the Lord Bandwagon.

[Maenara]

Yeah, today looks pretty good. Assuming three scum and a SK (That'd be a reasonable distribution, no?), any town member would have effectively three innocents (Themselves, as well as the masons), leaving 11 still-living players among whom 4 are worth lynching. Those are decent odds, methinks. This would, of course, necessitate a blocked kill this night, but that too is a possibility.

UNVOTE: Eleison
VOTE: NJAC

The wagon train goes on and on.

[Maenara]

Three anti-town roles in a 16-player game is too few. Whether or not one is a SK is not what matters.

You're one of the four because your lurking and returning always comes at far too convenient times, and because you're so busy defending yourself and never committing to scumhunting.

If I knew who the other three were, I'd lynch them.

[Maenara]

Oh, fake a bit more ignorance, Jun. Everyone can see that it's virtually guaranteed there'd be at least 4 anti-town players, and I'm guessing that there's a SK or similar because I find that most 16-man games would probably have some sort of 3rd party.

@Qwints: Tell me, then, why I as mafia would prefer to blatantly bandwagon people to generate pressure, rather than spending the time building towncred while town tore itself apart. I mean, look at it. We've been spending ages getting absolutely nowhere. Yeah, I've been sheeping, but that's because this town needs a bit more cohesion. As for Pirate Mollie, any reading at all will tell you that I loathed her play-style, and thought she was not helping town at all. My read on her straddled the border between VI and scum, but I honestly don't see what your problem with that is.

[Maenara]

This sequence is also strange to me. Maenara, who "no likey" theory discussion (post 12) and is surrounded by "more experienced" players (post 91) assumes that there is a third part involved based on her experience with 16-man games - despite her only other games being 2 newbie games and 1 large theme. Set-up speculation at this stage seems unhelpful given the fact the only info we have is 2 flipped townies and 2 claimed masons.

An amateur player who dislikes theory discussion performing premature setup speculation SCREAMS hidden information to me. The roles aware of a blocked night kill would be:
1)any mafia member if the mafia kill didn't go through;
2)a serial killer whose kill didn't go through; or
3)a town power role who somehow gained hidden information (no one should speculate on this at this point for obvious reasons)

Oh, for...

I never claimed to be certain that there's a 3rd party, I just find it more likely than only a single kill role in a 16-man game with masons, while giving both kills to the mafia seems imbalanced. Only three non-town players in a 16 man game with masons is virtually impossible. My point is not that it had to be 3 scum and a SK, I was just assuming that for the sake of the argument.

And yes,

excessive

setup speculation is bad. That's why I didn't go into detail before people started pressing me on why I'd set it. The only thing I was doing, initially, was saying that there was probably 4 anti-town players, one of whom I just assumed, again, for the sake of argument, was a SK. Like I said later, though, that doesn't matter, and all that matters is that we've got a reasonably good chance of hitting scum,

which was my freaking point.

As for the experience thing, my problem isn't with understanding setups, it's with reading players. Two very different skills.

So, a cumulative list of my outstanding questions for

Maenara:
Q: What "valuable information" did we learn from lynching mollie?

Hard to say on D2, but since y'all seem to believe that there'd be scum on Mollie's wagon, that narrows it down quite a bit.

Q: Is there a reason to not connect you and Telo?

Not that I can see, beyond there not being any reason to connect us in the first place.

Q: What was the point of post 775?

Trying to get people to be more willing to pressure folks and adding to what Smash had just said.

[Maenara]

I'm not certain yet.

There. Is that clear enough?

[Maenara]

Then there is not very much I can do to convince you otherwise.

[Maenara]

Fine. My statement was hasty and partly motivated by the attempt to get people to do

anything], as we were stagnating. The lynch, while taking place, did not happen the way I'd assumed it would, and we have too few data points at current time to do much with it other than declaring Shinori an idiot for hammering. I really can't say more at current time; I don't remember more about the exact thoughts going through my head at the time.

Also, NJAC is still totally scum for doing nothing, reappearing at the most convenient of times, and being unwilling to do anything risky at all.

Oh, and Jun, but saying that at the moment just sounds like an OMGUS.

[Maenara]

Wow good catch about Maenara's position on discussing the setup. I missed that.

And to answer your question, I would have to actually be scum with Maenara to be bussing her. But if it gets us to lynch scum, I don't care what you think since its not really convincing imo to hear someone say no, i'm not bussing Maenara since I'm not scum. I think Maenara's lynch would give us the most information and has the highest probability of hitting scum at the moment.

Oh, for...

I never claimed to be certain that there's a 3rd party, I just find it more likely than only a single kill role in a 16-man game with masons, while giving both kills to the mafia seems imbalanced. Only three non-town players in a 16 man game with masons is virtually impossible. My point is not that it had to be 3 scum and a SK, I was just assuming that for the sake of the argument.

And yes,

excessive

setup speculation is bad. That's why I didn't go into detail before people started pressing me on why I'd set it. The only thing I was doing, initially, was saying that there was probably 4 anti-town players, one of whom I just assumed, again, for the sake of argument, was a SK. Like I said later, though, that doesn't matter, and all that matters is that we've got a reasonably good chance of hitting scum,

which was my freaking point.

As for the experience thing, my problem isn't with understanding setups, it's with reading players. Two very different skills.

No. Not a good catch.

Keep scumming it up, Jun.

[Maenara]

You miss my point.

My criticizing you in that post sounds like an OMGUS, because you're currently attacking me.

Of course, you totally are scum, but that's irrelevant to that particular point.

[Maenara]

Y'all are ignoring the fact that scum would rather

not

be seen doing everything scummy. "Oh, sure, let's go ahead and lynch everyone who has actually tried to encourage activity while not being one of the three we've got a massive crush on!"

I mean, really. What is up with this. Eleison was objectively terrible on D1. Him getting to four votes was not scummy. Analysing based on wagons while ignoring things like what NJAC has (not) been doing is just downright dumb.

[Maenara]

Provisionally? NJAC, Jun, numberscum. Decreasing order of certainty, though, and some of them are very likely to change as I read on.

I'm kinda uncomfortable with that "after we lynch you", though.

[Maenara]

...wait, so because some people defend them for stupid reasons, it's a policy lynch? What?

[Maenara]

EBWOP "followed Smashbard"

Actually, let me direct that last question to hiraki and maenara:

Why did you join the shinori wagon and why did you get off?

Because Shinori had done just about the worst thing you could do, and he was being a thoroughly horrible player; even going as far as to state that he didn't care if he was lynched.

I jumped off because his defense genuinely seemed town-like, and hence, I'd gained what I wanted from the wagon - A better read on Shinori.

[Maenara]

@Mae, I see you dodging my question, please answer it:

Also, NJAC is still totally scum for doing nothing, reappearing at the most convenient of times, and being unwilling to do anything risky at all.

When are those convenient times and why are they exactly convenient for me? Did I mention I had RL stuff to deal with?

Those convenient times are the only times you actually bothered to say more in a post than "I totally iso'd this guy, he's scum", or, in other words, while defending yourself.

And yeah, you mentioned you had real life stuff. So what? Anyone could say that.

The only two realistic wagons you've committed yourself to was the one on the person now shown to be a mason, and me. You've been way too careful not to say anything.

Also, besides me who do you think is scummy right now?

If you read my posts at all, you'd know. I stated as much explicitly a few posts ago.

[Maenara]

Oh, bloody hell, messed up the quote tags. Obviously, there should be another end-quote after your self-quote.

[Maenara]

I've already explained why I want NJAC pressured. I don't know with whom he'd be associated, except possibly Jun. I don't even recall why I had Telo as a subject; I've read her posts outside this game and have come to expect absolutely zilch from her, so her slot is a complete null-read on my part.

Lynching me because I don't have a particularly good case on anyone at the moment is just ridiculous. Person without case != scum, and if we assume for the sake of argument that I'm the former, how do you expect me to prove this? I've defended myself against whatever things you find wrong with my past behaviour, but you ignore it.

Sweet Cthulhu, stop looking for by-the-book tells for a moment, and try to consider the motivations behind people's behaviour, will you?

[Maenara]

Also, don't you think it's a bit peculiar that seemingly everyone is just fine with this wagon? Wasn't that your main complaint about the other wagons?

[Maenara]

stop looking for by-the-book tells for a moment

So you admit you're giving off by-the-book tells?

I admit that I've messed up a few times, like putting Telo as a scum-read rather than a null-read, probably overstating the potential gain from a wagon on Mollie, and so on and so forth. Messing up as town is seen by a lot of people as scum. I cannot objectively judge whether my behaviour seems scummy, only if it is motivated by such or not, but seeing as y'all seem to think I'm behaving like scum, and I sure ain't motivated by any such role, by-the-book tells seems to be the only option left.

[Maenara]

Okay, okay, I admit it. I've been doing a lousy job, mostly accusing NJAC of doing the exact same things I've been doing, and been reluctant to change my views. A lot of my bad behaviour stems from frustration with the game - We aren't exactly the best crop of players (You know who you are), but as I'm one of the worse ones, I cannot justify things using this.

Mea culpa.

I'll try to do some more useful stuff. Thanks to Buldermar for summarizing everything in that monstrous abomination of a wall there. It helps clear things up. At the moment, I'm looking at a Jun/Dividizzle/CombinatorialEnigma/Buldermar as the anti-town players, in one way or another, though this is solely gut-based. I'll try to build up a case later, and actually do it this time.

For what it's worth, I have not been breadcrumbing anything, and I ask that you lynch me immediately if I at any point during the game claim that any post prior to this one was hinting at my role. Just as an assurance.

[Maenara]

Oh, bloody. I forgot to unvote.

Sorry.

UNVOTE: NJAC

With that out of the way ...

The Chronicles of the Terminally Insecure, Or
"Why We Need To Lynch Dividizzle":

Members of town, bussing scum, and Buldermar - Allow me to present a humble case on why Dividizzle has not been doing anything pro-town in this game, and why I'd appreciate it if he'd just lay down and die. "But surely Dividizzle has done nothing to deserve such a cruel fate," I hear you cry. But hasn't he? Truly, I had not considered him overly much, during the course of the game, but he recently caught my eye, and since then, my estimation of him has only turned worse.

Let me guide you through the infernal plains of his posts:

I'm not convinced by Eleison's plan either. @Eleison, you say you don't want to reveal your town reads but you also tell Mae and Mollie to stop intown bickering. Does that imply that you have a town read on them both?

A few posts into the game, Dividizzle is already busy looking for the reads of townies, the better to exploit them later, and align himself with fruitful wagons.

Unvote
Vote: Eleison

Sorry if this has already been mentioned as I read a little bit briefly while catching up but I am suspicious of Eleison's firm approval of Maenara's scum, town, inactivity list, given the fact that he is listed as number two on that list.

@Eleison: if you like those lists, how do you explain you appearing as scum to him?

Creating dissent within town, fishing for further elaboration and trying to make people slip up. Considering that we now know that Eleison is overwhelmingly likely to be town, this does not reflect too well on him.

After doing my reread, my initial reaction is that my two favored scum targets are NJAC and themoaner. Now I know that isn't terribly surprising because they have both drawn suspicion already but I want to point out a couple exchanges that made me question them.
In post 148, NJAC references themoaner and says he can’t tell if he’s scummy or not, keeping both distance and a lack of suspicion on him, then voting for someone else.
In post 183 he once again acknowledges that he had initial scum reactions to themoaner but then backs out.
Finally in post 242, NJAC questions why the wagon on themoaner died but quickly switches attention and places a vote on Slandaar for dubious reasons. It is worth noting that in the previous two posts he claimed that the wagon on themoaner didn’t look good, and then changed his mind to wonder why it didn’t go further.

I can’t tell if this is the play of a couple scum interacting. It raised suspicion with me because it just seemed very phony, as if placing some blame would distance him but not enough to actually cause themoaner any danger. Thoughts?

Also, just to add my opinions on two of the other most argued over players, I think both Pirate Mollie and Jun are giving me town vibes, albeit not in normal ways.

Picking targets already chosen by others, stokes the fire but refuses to commit. "I can't tell if this is the play of a couple of scum interacting" - then why say anything at all?

Lumping together a town member and a scumbuddy in the end, too, defending them both very vaguely, and trying to make town associate them with one another.

I agree that Mcstab's iso looks sketchy. Care to elaborate on why you wouldn't want a vote on him Slandaar?

An attempt to get people to focus on McStab; trying to start a wagon without committing on his own.

I just did a reread of Mollie's iso and here are some thoughts:

- I'm not as concerned about her wild scumhunting as themoaner is. While she does do quite a bit of jumping around, it strikes me as overzealous but not overtly suspicious.

- The references to the other mafia site do seem mildly scummy. I am not as held up over her self-description as new or not but she does use the other site and its different setup to deflect criticism or suspicion at times.

- The most town-leaning point for me is that Mollie and I have had some overlap in other scum suspicions. obviously this could mean that I have been incorrect, but it is hard to view Mollie as scum for that reason.

- I do agree that she has reacted poorly to pressure from votes.

@Slandaar: You seem confident about this vote but haven't articulated a case against Mollie, why do you find her so scummy?

"I think Mollie is town-like, only she's scummy, only she's a bit town-like, but she's still scummy." - Making sure to have plenty of options later on, eh? Also, in the end, "Please, Slandaar, tell me what you think so I can fit my views into that."

I could support a Mcstab lynch. Although the fact that we now know he has requested replacement means in theory we should give the replacement a chance to say hello.

Also @Slandaar: in reference to you saying that if we lynch a lurker it should be PMysterious, I think the case against NJAC goes beyond just lurking. I detailed the beginning of it in an earlier post and when i get more time tonight, I can state it more.

"Hey, I'm still totally in favour of you people lynching McStab, but I don't really want to commit to it, you know? Also, I can totally argue for why others are scum, so don't focus on the fence I'm sitting on, please?"

I would like to see what NJAC and PMysterious have to say in their return before I get behind the lynch of numberguy.

@NJAC and PMysterious: please thoughts on what has happened and on suspicion of your inactivity?

"Hey, uhm, yah. I'm still careful. Please say something so you can dig your own grave, instead of me shooting you."

@Smash: Usually scumslips scare me in terms of being a rationale for quicklynch because they seem like they are often toeing the line between damning and trivial. I also have just found that D1 is harder for me because I like to rely on analyzing a person's overall actions/interactions. I have to leave but more to post this afternoon.

Here he then goes on to explain that no, he totally can't be held responsible for what he's doing on D1, because hey, it's not like he has the same things as his disposal as everyone else. Get a grip, Div.

Sorry guys, had some technical difficulties yesterday. I have been set back by the recent replacing and returning. A couple things I think though:

buldemar's claim that any town player (regarding mollie) would have read previous games strikes me strangely. I still don't think I can get behind a Mollie lynch but I could get behind a numbersguy lynch and I agree that could give us a lot of information about Mollie as well.

As for numbers guy, I don't think the 'scumslip' was incredibly telling (as previously stated) but I do think his reaction has been poor, focusing on the issue and continuing to try to talk around it. I feel like town would have acknowledged that something they said was construed as scummy instead of backing into a wall and taking a me vs. them attitude.

Unvote
Vote: 10506670

And here he finally thinks he's found a wagon which can be lead into a mislynch without him appearing culpable. The part about not believing the scumslip (Note that it's "As previously stated" - Making sure to seem very consistent) is especially brilliant - He can then, after a mislynch, argue that it was totally Numbers' fault for reacting poorly, as well as all the people who started the wagon for using a false tell.

Mollie I agree that we shouldn't lynch over the scumslip itself but I think his defense has been poor. His play has seemed more scummy to me than Thurhame was.

Still making sure to not seem culpable after a mislynch...

I don't like the speed at which Shinori got votes, though I will say his defense was less than convincing. Also, the "die"/didn't know it was hammer seems very suspicious to me.

Also, just to point out, theomoaner arguing with telo seems almost similar to his argument with Mollie (in manner not necessarily in content) on the first day and that didn't turn out well (lynching Mollie the townie).

I think I look at some voting things.

And here we have another wagon which he'd like to have succeed without appearing responsible. He follows his standard procedure of declaring the person somewhat scummy for minor reasons, but still condemning others for their actions, so as to have others to lynch in retribution once it flips town.

He then goes on to sow discord 'round Theomoaner, while defending the person he sees as an easy target. The latter is always popular amongst scum, because hey, there's a good chance they'll die, and that means extra town-cred.

I have never played with masons before either, but clearly they were in contact so the other option is that they are mafia, which could explain the day 2 start. This doesn't seem reasonable because one would suspect that mafia would target a claimed mason with a night kill.

So anyway, it's interesting that Eleison notes Maenara and Hiraki switching votes to his wagon because on the original Mollie wagon they constitute the beginning impetus. Maenara goes as far to point out L-5, implying for the first time a lynch really coming. It is interesting to note that Maenara was not on the final Mollie wagon, though both were on Shinori at its peak.

Also should be pointed out, that aside from Smash and Eleison, the two that were on the final Mollie wagon as well as the Shinori wagon that rapidly gained steam were buldemar and hiraki. Buldemar is on the Mollie wagon despite not really having too much fault with Mollie (correct me if I'm wrong), but he states that he'd rather see a Mollie lynch than no lynch. Then on day 2 proceeds to go right after shinori. I may be grasping at straws but that seems like blaming shinori for an incorrect mollie lynch that he participated on but distanced himself from.

Alright, I need to go to bed, I will puzzle over this a bit more and i'll be on tomorrow.

Also, just to note, this hinges on the fact that the Mollie lynch killed a town and that the Shinori wagon gained steam a little bit too quickly for my suspicion.

Sowing a lot of discord, stoking a lot of fires, but ultimately settling on absolutely nothing.

It's not ideal that we claimed so early, as the original plan was to bread crumb our roles with the whole first letter of every post Day 2 thing, then refer back to Day 2 to confirm the surviving mason if one of us should die. But other circumstances have arisen, which gives me red flags on quite a few players behaviors. More on that once I've had a chance to analyze Mollies Day 1 wagon, Slandaars interactions & Shinori's day 2 wagon.

I feel like I am missing something simple here. Why would that be a better scenario? Wouldn't it be better to have two confirmed town than one after the other dies?
I also missed the reason why you had to claim so early, if not for the one post I remember seeing in which you stated you had good reason to believe eleison was town, but then more conversation went on after that.


I'm not 100% convinced by the argument that it would make no sense for a mafia group of more than 2 to declare 2 of their members to be mason partners. Why would they be leaving their other members in the dust? They would be in the exact same position as before. If two of their mafia could develop town cred, it would be extremely beneficial to them.

Trying to appear suspicious yet reasonable about the masons claim. Damn those Masons, eh, Dividizzle? So pesky with their confirmed town-ness.

Vote: Maenara

I think Maenara is the scummiest player right now. I am also much more comfortable with a Maenara lynch than a Jun lynch. Jun has made some strange comments but not particularly scummy in my eyes. As for the case on maenara, aside from what I was already suspicious of, I think qwints reason #2 in post 814 is telling. Looking at Maenara's ISO and focusing on analysis of mollie, he jumps from all sides of the spectrum. He also shows, in my opinion, way too much pleasure in lynching someone he very well admits could be town.

"Aside from what I was already suspicious of, which I won't mention, of course, I'll totally follow this wall-driven bandwagon, as it seems to have an impenetrable line of reasoning, and also, my past tactics don't seem to have worked, and I want the day to end."

Why did you consider the wagon scum-driven? Who do you think was driving it?

It was more than one post delayed. It could be interpreted as if you were deliberately postponing voting to allow picking a target more likely to get lynched. That is scummy.

I found it perculiar that you would make a case against me in that way without really following up on it. It could be interpreted as if you were testing if others were willingly buying it before placing your vote. Avoidance of placing votes could be scummy because it allows for it not to be too "locked", which would lead to missing out on other lynching opportunities.

I think it's important that we get a clear answer from Hiraki soon regarding Shinori.

It was the fact that town had just driven a mistaken lynch in Pirate Mollie and while I was feeling hesitant, others seemed very willing to quickly load up on another wagon. As I just pointed out, it surprised me to go back and see that both masons (whose claim I am trusting for the moment) were on it.

It was one of MY posts delayed, perhaps you were unclear about that. And it occurred after all that stupid arguing that derailed a lot of things. Then I did look at voting and rather than making a ‘case’ against you, I pointed out something interesting.

Whose claim he's trusting for the moment? Oh, hell no, he's not. This so doesn't fit with what he said only a few posts ago. He can't both be like this, and claim to be suspicious about them earlier on. There's no way that's consistent.

Oh, and he's trying to make excuses for his past fence-sitting. Too little, too late, scumdizzle.

VOTE: Dividizze

Also, Buldermar, are you a serial killer?

[Maenara]

Because I think that one has the potential to end the day too early. By all means, I want the pressure to stay on him, too, but he's already been in the spotlight, and there's no way he's gonna succeed in slipping by after this. The same can't be said for Dividizzle.

[Maenara]

It was a big wall. I forgot the question by the time I hit bottom.

Q: Will you be willing to lynch Shinori? What do you think about Shinori ignoring me? What in Shinori's defense did you find particularly town-like?

Answer: 1) Ambivalent on that one. Can I say "Yes, but I'd rather lynch someone else"? He's annoying, but I think there's greater chance of hitting scum elsewhere. 2) A weak scum-tell. Also, very consistent with his behaviour, sadly. 3) Uh, not quite sure. Mostly a gut read, really. It felt like he'd previously just been messing around, and now finally decided to actually go and help the rest of town. Given that my main beef with him was him acting like a useless, tunneling, apathetic arse, it didn't take much to persuade me to switch the vote to someone else I found suspicious, once he started looking like he was actually going to do something for a change.

[Maenara]

Because I think that one has the potential to end the day too early. By all means, I want the pressure to stay on him, too, but he's already been in the spotlight, and there's no way he's gonna succeed in slipping by after this. The same can't be said for Dividizzle.

Why are you so concerned about the day ending early?

Because short day = bad for town.

[Maenara]

He's not doing it anymore, and I wouldn't mind seeing him vigged or something, but I'm ambivalent on lynching him at current time when I have people who are scumreads rather than badtownreads.

[Maenara]

I didn't have any proper reads back there. It was all a huge freaking mess of everyone doing nothing, and everything grinding to a halt. This day, we're getting something useful done, which is why I think we should keep doing that. Granted, half of it is a wagon on me, which isn't exactly as useful as I'd like, but it still promotes useful scumhunting and such.

[Maenara]

Right. Y'all admit they were completely different situations, and yet I still need to die for it?

Yes, I want either Dividizzle or Jun to be lynched today. No, I'd rather not have any of them lynched this exact minute, as we can still gather more information. Yesterday, on the other hand, we were being lead on a wild goose chase all over everything, and were busy tearing the town apart rather than getting anywhere.

If you can't see the difference between the two days, and why one warranted an early end and the other didn't, you need glasses. Yes, "short day = bad for town", but "the day 1 we were having = worse for town". There, is that simple enough terms?

And I like the fact that nobody actually bothered to comment on my case on Dividizzle. Sure looks like a townie thing to do, that.

P-edit: No, I haven't, because Shinori was already on the wagon.

[Maenara]

Okay, for all y'all who think I'm scum for my actions on D1, I'm going to ask you to do one thing.

Don't iso me. Rather, read my actions in context. Look at when I said what I said, and how things were(n't) proceeding.

And would someone please step off my wagon so some lynch-happy goon can't jump in and hammer me?

[Maenara]

Okay, fuck that. I defend myself, people tell me to give them a case. I give them a case, they tell me that I'm muddling the waters. I defend myself, they say that I need to stop doing that and give reads instead.

Dividizzle is fence-sitting scum, Enigma is lurking scum, Buldermar is either very pro-town or a SK fishing for Doc protection, Jun is also trying to fence-sit and commits to about as little as Dividizzle, qwints is town with super plus tunneling powers, Shinori is town who doesn't play to his win-condition, Telo is town with no idea how to play in general, Eleison and Smashbard are masons, Hiraki is town but doesn't care overly much about the game either, numbers is a null-read, theo is as well, NJAC is town who needs to add more to the game, mykonian is the mod and I'm frustrated.

There. Fine.

[Maenara]

Thank you TBM, that's saved me posting a wall of invective.

I don't know why I fall for these things but go on, Maenara, why do you think Buldermar is an SK?
I can't get why you would list Telo (now TBM) as town when earlier she was completely null because you were "expecting absolutely zilch from her" (#880).
Why has NJAC gone from the top of of your scum list to being town?

I think Buldermar is a SK because I think he'd totally do that, and I've already vaguely mentioned the chance of there being one, so there has to, damnit. Also, he just feels wrong. Might be someone else instead, though. Like, uh, you.
Telo town because she hasn't slipped up yet and she would have, oh yes, she would. Not a particularly strong read, but better than nothing.
NJAC isn't scum because my reasoning on him was total bullshit and I was latching onto him because I'd neglected the game and had almost zero proper reads, and I remembered latching onto him for lurking and disappearing and such earlier on, so, given that I am, of course, omniscient, I decided that I had to have been right back then, and resumed wagoning him. Then I realized I was doing the exact same thing, and it suddenly didn't seem as scummy.

[Maenara]

*because he'd totally act massively pro-town in the hopes of nailing scum early and going on to seem conf-town while he murdered us all

[Maenara]

Well, of course.

[Maenara]

Nope, try again.

That's quite an impressive amount of zeal and certainty, along with deviation from your usual style, for someone with only a single vote on them, though.

[Maenara]

Why would you ever hammer if you're "pretty damn sure" she's town?

Because of a mathematical advantage?

NLing is almost always strategically disadvantageous in any situation like this.

Yeah, but it's not like it's the day before the deadline. There's still discussion that can take place that we don't want to cut off.

How about you give us some of that, then? We've had precious little discussion from you.

Also, mostly waiting for TBM to continue saying stuff so we can get on with the game.

[Maenara]

Dare one suggest that Sir has been focusing over-much on one's person, perhaps even to what less charitable people might term the neglect of everything else? If so, one could, perhaps, further suggest that Sir has been taking quite a long break from Mafia, and that hence, Sir's reads are completely and utterly screwed up beyond comprehension?

Seriously, someone step off before I'm hammered, and try paying attention to A) The wagon on Jun, B) My case on, and interaction with, Dividizzle, and C) Enigma's terribad lurking.

[Maenara]

Ugh, fine, nobody cares about Dividizzle.

Lynch him and Enigma if I die at night, please.

UNVOTE: Dividizzle
VOTE: Jun

Also obvscum.

[Maenara]

I don't know why nobody joined it.

Oh, you mean the Jun thing?

Keeps going back to voting for lurkers. Starts his very first post by throwing FOSes at people but still only does a "random" vote. Until his 32th post, only mentions Dividizzle in terms of "Could be lurking scum, need him to post more", but still puts him in his "leaning town" pile. Makes sure to mention Hiraki every time he mentions Dividizzle, to tie together their status. Been bussing Enigma for a long time while said player wasn't under fire, in order to firmly cement his own rep, should Enigma be lynched.

They're so obviously a scum-team. Do you want me to do it on a post-by-post basis?

[Maenara]

I want Dividizzle to give his reads on Jun and Enigma.

I want Enigma to give his reads on Jun and Dividizzle.

I want Jun to give his reads on Dividizzle and Enigma.

Thank ye.

[Maenara]

Jun: obvscum

Div: useless lurker (yeah, yeah, I know I'm being hypocritical by calling out someone else on that), not sure but leaning lurky town.

Is lurking to a grotesque degree, yet answers an hour after I asked?

Definitely scum too. Thanks for cementing my read.

[Maenara]

They're so obviously a scum-team. Do you want me to do it on a post-by-post basis?

I do want

Not tonight, then. Tomorrow, peut-être.

Request that the Mod includes exact times with deadline for the purpose of clear understanding.

[Maenara]

NJAC is using bad one-game meta, though.

[Maenara]

The PbPA was meant to be of Jun alone (Though obviously, his interactions with other show from it), but in light of recent events, I'm not doing it 'till next day, as we won't be lynching him anyhow, and playing your entire hand right before scum get to kill someone is stupid.

I trust that, should I against all expectations die tonight, town will not fall victim to WIFOM and lynch the wrong person. Unless there's a very good reason to believe anything to the contrary, kill Dividizzle, then Jun.

UNVOTE: Jun
VOTE: Shinori

Also, FYI, I'd definitely not be okay with a lynch on you, Buldermar. I think you might potentially turn out to be a SK, but at the moment, you're a very useful asset to town either way.

[Maenara]

That's L-1, by the way, if I can count.

[Maenara]

And I'd still like an actual time on that deadline, so as to avoid getting caught in an accidental no-lynch.

[Maenara]

Pathetic attempt at getting me mislynched today, scum.

Vote: Dividizzle

[Maenara]

...why did I vote like that?

VOTE: Dividizzle

[Maenara]

Because the guy whose lynch I didn't advocate, but which I compromised on, turned out to be town? Because the guy who constantly tunneled on me D2 was killed during the night?

Look, there's such a thing as scum creating WIFOM, but I wouldn't be stupid enough to highlight it in the very first post of D3, posted 17 minutes after the day started, if I'd been the one to kill him.

Now can we please kill the obvious scum of obviousness?

[Maenara]

Maenara should win a scummie for her WIFOM in first few posts of the day.

Thanks.

Seriously, though, it's freakin' obvious. Don't all it WIFOM just beccause there are multiple possible reasons; it's not that hard. Assuming, for a moment, that the masons are actually masons, scum would only have one reason to shoot Qwints: His reads. He was being way too conspicuous to be a PR, so those were the only thing he had left. Now, seeing as he mainly had strong opinions on a single player (Guess who), that leaves two options, MeScum and PeopleTryingToSetMeUpAsAMislynchScum (Hereinafter referred to as Diviscum).

The former, really, makes no sense, for one reason: The nightkills.

If I'd been the one in charge of that kill, I would've been on a scum-team. It's the same kind of kill two nights in a row, and I really doubt the mafia would voluntarily abstain from murdering someone twice. Now, I have one challenge for y'all: Find out who the hell I'd be with. It wouldn't be Eleison/Smash, because we're already assuming that they're town. NJAC? Naw, campaigning too much for his death earlier on. Jun and Dividizzle? Going too much after them unprovoked. Buldermar? Yeah, that's totally why I'm trying to make people suspicious of his otherwise strongly-pro-town looks. Hiraki? ...that one it could be, I suppose, but I suspect he wouldn't be as happy to bus me were that the case, though who knows. Numbers? Meeh, he hasn't really done much, so who knows? Same with TheButtonmen, who replaced Telo, with whom Qwints insisted I was buddying, so I suppose you'd think that. Theomoaner? Oh, hells no.

...actually, reading back, he could be...

Okay, but still. This requires a scum-team of me and three of {Hiraki, Numbers, TheButtonmen, Theomoaner}. Do you really see that happening?

Of course, most of y'all are going to ignore that while shouting "WIFOM!" without understanding that this is not reason for total discarding of an idea, but I've digressed enough. Besides, by now, you should be paying attention to the interaction between me and said individuals, so I hope you'll take that as enough proof.

It should be obvious by now that there are only a few viable scumblocks. We need to hit some of the people who will tell us most about which of them is the right one. Dividizzle is as good a target as any, and he's scummy as hell.

Go.

[Maenara]

Weak defensive post, do something. Commit.

[Maenara]

Are people fully content to simply ignore Dividizzle? I mean, okay, fine, there are other people who are scummy too, and I wouldn't mind lynching them either, but holy hell, how is it that nobody ever says anything about him?

[Maenara]

How does that even make sense.

[Maenara]

What bad counting? I counted right. Mykonian messed up.

Maenara, I would like you to at least acknowledge these questions, and if possible answer them please.

... It's the same kind of kill two nights in a row,

In what way?

and I really doubt the mafia would voluntarily abstain from murdering someone twice.

Why would you even think this?

I'm not ignoring your Dividizzle case. I'm just trying to sort out my suspicions before moving on to yours. There are probably four scum to find, I have my own ideas about who they are and I need to work through them before moving on.

For the first one: Someone apologizing, the death-text being "X was killed". There's no difference between them, and there often is, when it's mafia vs. SK.

As for the issue of mafia not abstaining from kills, well, that's just common sense isn't it? My point was, it's probably the same faction which has managed to kill twice in a row, and my money is on both being done by the mafia.

[Maenara]

Oh hai Jun. Nice to hear from you. If I flip scum, Hiraki is scum bussing me, and if Dividizzle flips scum, I'm scum bussing him? Fancy how you're trying to recover from your whole scum-team imploding.

[Maenara]

EDIT: Herpaderp, that makes no sense. Nevermind my last post. I need some time to think, what I just said was just... Bleh. Disregard that there.

[Maenara]

Theo, I don't know if there's a SK, but my logic works regardless of whether or not there is one - My point is, even if one such exists, the Mafia are virtually guaranteed to be the ones to have done both kills. Hence, if I was in charge of the kills, I'd have to be mafia. I don't know if there's a SK, and I'm not even particularly in favour of the theory anymore.

I still have to think up an intelligent response to the whole deal with Jun. Also, TBM, how's your view of Dividizzle?

[Maenara]

I don't care much about the slip, but I want him dead regardless.

Also, is that video-posting even within site rules? Isn't it communication outside the game kinda... Banned?

#Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, alliances, etc. Using knowledge from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.
# Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where explicitly allowed to do so by your role/moderator. Likewise, do not use bbcode to hide secret messages - this equates to discussion outside the thread.

[Maenara]

Request that the Mod resolves the question of whether or not CombinatorialEnigma's actions fell outside site rules.

If they don't, 's all good, but I wasn't sure if you saw it while it was non-bolded.

[Maenara]

Good to know ^_^

[Maenara]

For the record, my problem with Enigma posting that video is that it gives him a downright ridiculous advantage. Body language and similar are incredibly important to communication, so the fact that he posts a video of himself is as close to cheating as you can get without it apparently being so.

@Theo: I agree with your comments about night actions. Do you think Mae is scummier than CE?

Yes I do.

Speaking of Maenara and Enigma, I found this strange.

I don't care much about the slip, but I want him dead regardless.

Maenaras case on Enigma is that he is lurkerscum, a case that has not been improved upon other to add that he has been bussing her other scumread Dividizzle, but without having any evidence to back this up. She even makes the point that she doesn't even care about the one potentially scummy thing he has done, which means that she is pushing for

another

policy lynch on a lurker.

She actually made a semi-convincing case on dividizzle but nobody bought it, so instead of trying to improve it she went back to policy lynch on a lurker.

The hell I did. I'm still on Dividizzle, and for good reason. I said I wanted him dead, not that I wanted him lynched now. I still want people to explain why they're not in favour of lynching Dividizzle. Like Buldermar indicated, though, I've got him tied up with Enigma, and this, combined with the latter's less-than-stellar record, is why I want him dead too. Of course, now his video comes and gets me all confused, which annoys me to no end. If another video is posted, I'm replacing out, because that is just bullshit.

@Maenara: what happened with your case on Jun? why to pick dividizzle instead? and what do you think about the Masons?

My case on Jun doesn't synch up as well as it should with his recent behaviour, and it confuses me. I've still got him as a weak scumread, but no more than that, whereas Dividizzle is pretty much asking to die. As for the masons... I don't like it. I can't get myself to lynch them today, but I don't trust them.

[Maenara]

I hate to admit it, but at this point I don't think scum would so blatantly keep on this stupid hat thing just to get a rise out of Jun and I.

WIFOM.

Scum by their nature have to be self preservationists,

Or just stupid.

and openly taunting all of us with his wine and hat jokes is practically begging for people to call on him for a lynch based on policy.

I thought you weren't in favour of those?

Hell, he might even be a Jester, wanting to be lynched.

No, he can't be. This isn't a bastard game. He is not a Jester. Stop trying to spread confusion.

But at least I'm having second thoughts as to his scumminess.

Try looking at his actual play rather than this moronic exchange of bad jokes. Better yet, take a gander at Dividizzle.

Unvote.

Vote: Maenara

I think Qwints would want this lynch more than anybody.

Because the player who had recently returned to Mafia, and whose reads had been proven elsewhere to be outdated, who was also tunneling to an extreme degree... That player, yes, he must obviously have known exactly what to do, and we should hence do exactly what he would have done... yesterday.

Yeah, no.

Tell me, Smashbard - What did you and your "mason"-buddy agree on for today? He seems to be lying low a bit.

[Maenara]

<snip>

Stop that.

Seriously. I do NOT want people to lynch me because I want a fair game. I think the video was a clear breach of site rules, I think it ruins the game, and I don't want to be in the game if it's repeated, no matter what the mod rules about it being allowed. I think it should've merited a modkill, and I realize that I don't have a say in that, but it's my bloody opinion and I'm entitled to it.

I will not have you trying to lynch me because I want to stick to site rules. Find me scummy? Then go ahead. But this is fucking bullshit, and I won't abide that.

[Maenara]

For far too many cases we've been going "Hey guys, this is either a really strong scumtell.....OOOOR it's a perfectly reasonable town reaction". And it's honestly making me sick. Can we all just grow some collective balls here and lynch someone for their scumminess and stop making excuses for them?

Yes. Please.

Here, have a case:

The Chronicles of the Terminally Insecure, Or
"Why We Need To Lynch Dividizzle":

Members of town, bussing scum, and Buldermar - Allow me to present a humble case on why Dividizzle has not been doing anything pro-town in this game, and why I'd appreciate it if he'd just lay down and die. "But surely Dividizzle has done nothing to deserve such a cruel fate," I hear you cry. But hasn't he? Truly, I had not considered him overly much, during the course of the game, but he recently caught my eye, and since then, my estimation of him has only turned worse.

Let me guide you through the infernal plains of his posts:

I'm not convinced by Eleison's plan either. @Eleison, you say you don't want to reveal your town reads but you also tell Mae and Mollie to stop intown bickering. Does that imply that you have a town read on them both?

A few posts into the game, Dividizzle is already busy looking for the reads of townies, the better to exploit them later, and align himself with fruitful wagons.

Unvote
Vote: Eleison

Sorry if this has already been mentioned as I read a little bit briefly while catching up but I am suspicious of Eleison's firm approval of Maenara's scum, town, inactivity list, given the fact that he is listed as number two on that list.

@Eleison: if you like those lists, how do you explain you appearing as scum to him?

Creating dissent within town, fishing for further elaboration and trying to make people slip up. Considering that we now know that Eleison is overwhelmingly likely to be town, this does not reflect too well on him.

After doing my reread, my initial reaction is that my two favored scum targets are NJAC and themoaner. Now I know that isn't terribly surprising because they have both drawn suspicion already but I want to point out a couple exchanges that made me question them.
In post 148, NJAC references themoaner and says he can’t tell if he’s scummy or not, keeping both distance and a lack of suspicion on him, then voting for someone else.
In post 183 he once again acknowledges that he had initial scum reactions to themoaner but then backs out.
Finally in post 242, NJAC questions why the wagon on themoaner died but quickly switches attention and places a vote on Slandaar for dubious reasons. It is worth noting that in the previous two posts he claimed that the wagon on themoaner didn’t look good, and then changed his mind to wonder why it didn’t go further.

I can’t tell if this is the play of a couple scum interacting. It raised suspicion with me because it just seemed very phony, as if placing some blame would distance him but not enough to actually cause themoaner any danger. Thoughts?

Also, just to add my opinions on two of the other most argued over players, I think both Pirate Mollie and Jun are giving me town vibes, albeit not in normal ways.

Picking targets already chosen by others, stokes the fire but refuses to commit. "I can't tell if this is the play of a couple of scum interacting" - then why say anything at all?

Lumping together a town member and a scumbuddy in the end, too, defending them both very vaguely, and trying to make town associate them with one another.

I agree that Mcstab's iso looks sketchy. Care to elaborate on why you wouldn't want a vote on him Slandaar?

An attempt to get people to focus on McStab; trying to start a wagon without committing on his own.

I just did a reread of Mollie's iso and here are some thoughts:

- I'm not as concerned about her wild scumhunting as themoaner is. While she does do quite a bit of jumping around, it strikes me as overzealous but not overtly suspicious.

- The references to the other mafia site do seem mildly scummy. I am not as held up over her self-description as new or not but she does use the other site and its different setup to deflect criticism or suspicion at times.

- The most town-leaning point for me is that Mollie and I have had some overlap in other scum suspicions. obviously this could mean that I have been incorrect, but it is hard to view Mollie as scum for that reason.

- I do agree that she has reacted poorly to pressure from votes.

@Slandaar: You seem confident about this vote but haven't articulated a case against Mollie, why do you find her so scummy?

"I think Mollie is town-like, only she's scummy, only she's a bit town-like, but she's still scummy." - Making sure to have plenty of options later on, eh? Also, in the end, "Please, Slandaar, tell me what you think so I can fit my views into that."

I could support a Mcstab lynch. Although the fact that we now know he has requested replacement means in theory we should give the replacement a chance to say hello.

Also @Slandaar: in reference to you saying that if we lynch a lurker it should be PMysterious, I think the case against NJAC goes beyond just lurking. I detailed the beginning of it in an earlier post and when i get more time tonight, I can state it more.

"Hey, I'm still totally in favour of you people lynching McStab, but I don't really want to commit to it, you know? Also, I can totally argue for why others are scum, so don't focus on the fence I'm sitting on, please?"

I would like to see what NJAC and PMysterious have to say in their return before I get behind the lynch of numberguy.

@NJAC and PMysterious: please thoughts on what has happened and on suspicion of your inactivity?

"Hey, uhm, yah. I'm still careful. Please say something so you can dig your own grave, instead of me shooting you."

@Smash: Usually scumslips scare me in terms of being a rationale for quicklynch because they seem like they are often toeing the line between damning and trivial. I also have just found that D1 is harder for me because I like to rely on analyzing a person's overall actions/interactions. I have to leave but more to post this afternoon.

Here he then goes on to explain that no, he totally can't be held responsible for what he's doing on D1, because hey, it's not like he has the same things as his disposal as everyone else. Get a grip, Div.

Sorry guys, had some technical difficulties yesterday. I have been set back by the recent replacing and returning. A couple things I think though:

buldemar's claim that any town player (regarding mollie) would have read previous games strikes me strangely. I still don't think I can get behind a Mollie lynch but I could get behind a numbersguy lynch and I agree that could give us a lot of information about Mollie as well.

As for numbers guy, I don't think the 'scumslip' was incredibly telling (as previously stated) but I do think his reaction has been poor, focusing on the issue and continuing to try to talk around it. I feel like town would have acknowledged that something they said was construed as scummy instead of backing into a wall and taking a me vs. them attitude.

Unvote
Vote: 10506670

And here he finally thinks he's found a wagon which can be lead into a mislynch without him appearing culpable. The part about not believing the scumslip (Note that it's "As previously stated" - Making sure to seem very consistent) is especially brilliant - He can then, after a mislynch, argue that it was totally Numbers' fault for reacting poorly, as well as all the people who started the wagon for using a false tell.

Mollie I agree that we shouldn't lynch over the scumslip itself but I think his defense has been poor. His play has seemed more scummy to me than Thurhame was.

Still making sure to not seem culpable after a mislynch...

I don't like the speed at which Shinori got votes, though I will say his defense was less than convincing. Also, the "die"/didn't know it was hammer seems very suspicious to me.

Also, just to point out, theomoaner arguing with telo seems almost similar to his argument with Mollie (in manner not necessarily in content) on the first day and that didn't turn out well (lynching Mollie the townie).

I think I look at some voting things.

And here we have another wagon which he'd like to have succeed without appearing responsible. He follows his standard procedure of declaring the person somewhat scummy for minor reasons, but still condemning others for their actions, so as to have others to lynch in retribution once it flips town.

He then goes on to sow discord 'round Theomoaner, while defending the person he sees as an easy target. The latter is always popular amongst scum, because hey, there's a good chance they'll die, and that means extra town-cred.

I have never played with masons before either, but clearly they were in contact so the other option is that they are mafia, which could explain the day 2 start. This doesn't seem reasonable because one would suspect that mafia would target a claimed mason with a night kill.

So anyway, it's interesting that Eleison notes Maenara and Hiraki switching votes to his wagon because on the original Mollie wagon they constitute the beginning impetus. Maenara goes as far to point out L-5, implying for the first time a lynch really coming. It is interesting to note that Maenara was not on the final Mollie wagon, though both were on Shinori at its peak.

Also should be pointed out, that aside from Smash and Eleison, the two that were on the final Mollie wagon as well as the Shinori wagon that rapidly gained steam were buldemar and hiraki. Buldemar is on the Mollie wagon despite not really having too much fault with Mollie (correct me if I'm wrong), but he states that he'd rather see a Mollie lynch than no lynch. Then on day 2 proceeds to go right after shinori. I may be grasping at straws but that seems like blaming shinori for an incorrect mollie lynch that he participated on but distanced himself from.

Alright, I need to go to bed, I will puzzle over this a bit more and i'll be on tomorrow.

Also, just to note, this hinges on the fact that the Mollie lynch killed a town and that the Shinori wagon gained steam a little bit too quickly for my suspicion.

Sowing a lot of discord, stoking a lot of fires, but ultimately settling on absolutely nothing.

It's not ideal that we claimed so early, as the original plan was to bread crumb our roles with the whole first letter of every post Day 2 thing, then refer back to Day 2 to confirm the surviving mason if one of us should die. But other circumstances have arisen, which gives me red flags on quite a few players behaviors. More on that once I've had a chance to analyze Mollies Day 1 wagon, Slandaars interactions & Shinori's day 2 wagon.

I feel like I am missing something simple here. Why would that be a better scenario? Wouldn't it be better to have two confirmed town than one after the other dies?
I also missed the reason why you had to claim so early, if not for the one post I remember seeing in which you stated you had good reason to believe eleison was town, but then more conversation went on after that.


I'm not 100% convinced by the argument that it would make no sense for a mafia group of more than 2 to declare 2 of their members to be mason partners. Why would they be leaving their other members in the dust? They would be in the exact same position as before. If two of their mafia could develop town cred, it would be extremely beneficial to them.

Trying to appear suspicious yet reasonable about the masons claim. Damn those Masons, eh, Dividizzle? So pesky with their confirmed town-ness.

Vote: Maenara

I think Maenara is the scummiest player right now. I am also much more comfortable with a Maenara lynch than a Jun lynch. Jun has made some strange comments but not particularly scummy in my eyes. As for the case on maenara, aside from what I was already suspicious of, I think qwints reason #2 in post 814 is telling. Looking at Maenara's ISO and focusing on analysis of mollie, he jumps from all sides of the spectrum. He also shows, in my opinion, way too much pleasure in lynching someone he very well admits could be town.

"Aside from what I was already suspicious of, which I won't mention, of course, I'll totally follow this wall-driven bandwagon, as it seems to have an impenetrable line of reasoning, and also, my past tactics don't seem to have worked, and I want the day to end."

Why did you consider the wagon scum-driven? Who do you think was driving it?

It was more than one post delayed. It could be interpreted as if you were deliberately postponing voting to allow picking a target more likely to get lynched. That is scummy.

I found it perculiar that you would make a case against me in that way without really following up on it. It could be interpreted as if you were testing if others were willingly buying it before placing your vote. Avoidance of placing votes could be scummy because it allows for it not to be too "locked", which would lead to missing out on other lynching opportunities.

I think it's important that we get a clear answer from Hiraki soon regarding Shinori.

It was the fact that town had just driven a mistaken lynch in Pirate Mollie and while I was feeling hesitant, others seemed very willing to quickly load up on another wagon. As I just pointed out, it surprised me to go back and see that both masons (whose claim I am trusting for the moment) were on it.

It was one of MY posts delayed, perhaps you were unclear about that. And it occurred after all that stupid arguing that derailed a lot of things. Then I did look at voting and rather than making a ‘case’ against you, I pointed out something interesting.

Whose claim he's trusting for the moment? Oh, hell no, he's not. This so doesn't fit with what he said only a few posts ago. He can't both be like this, and claim to be suspicious about them earlier on. There's no way that's consistent.

Oh, and he's trying to make excuses for his past fence-sitting. Too little, too late, scumdizzle.

VOTE: Dividizze

For the record, this was his response:

This is the second time Maenara has pulled a brand new case out against competing wagons and declared it to be the unifying case that all town could agree upon. Though it’s obviously about me, I think it should look contrived and desperate to anyone reading it. @Maenara: if you have any specific questions that you want me to address from your case feel free to ask them, rather than me picking apart the whole thing.

[Maenara]

Quote the site rules that forbids the video. Site rules have logical priority over individual game rules - if you can find a rule that explicitly forbids it, I shall reconsider my stance and vote on you.

I felt that it felt within this:

# Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where explicitly allowed to do so by your role/moderator. Likewise, do not use bbcode to hide secret messages - this equates to discussion outside the thread.

[/quote]

In any case, what matters is not whether or not you agree that this should be forbidden - The mod has already made a ruling, and that's final. What matters is that you're trying to get me lynched, apparently based solely upon my stance on this issue, which has no relation to my in-game alignment.

[Maenara]

I am angry about it because it's a kind of information that I feel has no place in a game of forum mafia. Body language influences your perception of people massively, and if you want to dispute that, I think there are a few psychologists, neurologists, anthropologists and so on that would like a word with you. It doesn't "tie into" any theory; it's just a shitty thing to do.

Seeing as y'all apparently want to lynch me, I'd like you to do me a favour: Agree on why, so I can actually defend myself. I see one hell of a lot people jumping on me, apparently each for their own reason. This should tell you a bit about how solid the case on me is - If you cannae even agree on what I've done wrong, why are you stringing me up?

[Maenara]

...

You know what? I'll go along with Buldermar's lynch-a-mason suggestion. Things in this game just don't add up the way they oughta, and neither Smashbard or Eleison

feel

town - Smash did early on, but it has deteriorated today. Jun has gone too muddled for me to know if he's scum, and CE's antics have messed up any chance of getting him dead too. Nobody seems to be willing to go along with Dividizzle, and so it's pretty much the only option left.

Please note that I'm not sheeping Buldermar on this on, and that I take full responsibility for the suggestion, as well as whatever fallout may occur, should it go through and end in a town-flip.

[Maenara]

Not voting before we decide on which mason to lynch first, though.

[Maenara]

Frankly? Yes. Yes, it is worth lynch.

[Maenara]

Get off your high horse before you fall off. I forgot to answer because of a certain lil' incident with a certain lil' video.

Me wanting him dead means I - based on what information I have at the moment - reckon he'd be a fine lynch on another day.

And yeah, I do have opinions on the rest of y'all. TBM asks questions that need to be asked, so he lives. Hiraki is too apathetic to say much of anything, so he's too shaky to lynch at the moment. Numbers is a null-read 'cause he ain't saying much of anything. Got a sorta townie read on NJAC after my skirmish with him. Buldermar is Credit To Team, and needs to stay alive if only because he's one o' the few people I can see making sense around here. And you? Eh, you dig and you contribute. If you're town, we need to keep you around, and if you're scum, it'll be more clear when more things have happened.

There.

And concerning lynching the 'masons' - If they really are masons, the mafia ain't gonna shoot them tonight when they didn't last night. We'll be heading into MyLo with two huge piles of WIFOM. And they're tied to each other, which means we get to know the alignment of more folks. If one flips scum, we've nailed two, and if he flips mason instead, well, the mafia can choose between letting us have a confirmed townie and having no chance of hitting a power role.

How's that for a deal?

[Maenara]

There is a legitimate reason to believe they lied. This is Mafia. Also, Smashbard has lost a ton of the townread on him today, with Eleison never having one in the first place.

In any case, if the Mafia chooses to kill the other mason, that means they have no chance of hitting a power role, assuming that any such exists. If there's a cop or a doc, that's solid gold in usefulness to town.

Anyhow, I'm starting to lean heavily towards them being scum. Why, you ask? Simple:

Why would real masons ever out both at the same time?

[Maenara]

1) I jump on convenient wagons because it's interesting to see how people react under pressure. Sadly, others seldom seem to join me on said wagons, which of course makes me wonder why they're called convenient in the first place. In any case, there's a difference between joining a wagon and staying there until someone is lynched. Day 1 was a mess, but I'm fully satisfied with the D2 lynch; we needed someone everyone could agree on, and Shinori really was the best choice.

2) Depending on me is stupid. Depend on Buldermar or Theo, depending on which side you lean to. Duh.

3) Eleison. If they turn out to be masons, Smashbard is more useful alive (If they leave him alive) than Eleison is.

[Maenara]

...which, of course, begs the question of why I have yet to

UNVOTE: Dividizzle
VOTE: Eleison

There.

[Maenara]

@Mod: My last post was not 72 hours ago. I thought prods were three days without action. Considering that it hadn't been this long yet, and that the two days of non-posting were during the weekend... Yeah. Also, you failed to note my last post, which was in fact a vote for Eleison.

@The Rest of Y'all: And what the hell is up with everyone going "Oh, let's ignore Maenara, except when we're convinced she's scum." Yes, I jump a lot. That's not scummy - That's as townie as it gets. Any competent scum, that is to say, anyone who poses a threat, has a bloody plan. Why do they have a plan? Because they already know who's scum, that's why! Town needs to test the waters, which is what I'm doing. And I'm not the only one either - The rest of y'all change your votes as well, I'm just not too cowardly to actually vote. The rest of y'all? Oooh, no, better just throw accusations at anyone, without actually voting, much safer.

D'you know why this is bad? Because votes can be checked more easily, when looking back.

To y'all who throw out reads and accusations, but never really change your vote, looking back to find out what you did is a quagmire. Have to slog through foot-long posts, and when we finally do point it out, you can just say that you were airing the idea. It'd be true, too - Only it does look a bit better on your CV. Me? Display posts by user: Mykonian; Ctrl+F; "Maenara". There you go.

But fine, find it scummy if you will. That's not the main problem. What really bugs me is that y'all are stuck in the "What-if-Maenara-is-scum"-mindset. And it's good to be suspicious, but gods, it's not the only option. Imagine, for a moment, that I'm town. Do you see what you're doing wrong, or do I need to point it out?

You are ignoring my points.

Even if I was scum, you'd have no reason not to pay attention, not to debate what I was saying. If I then flipped scum, you'd know that I was saying it because it was what town oughtn't think, but which I wanted them to. But if we accept that I'm town, it gets even worse. The hell I'm jumping around - What else am I to do, when I bring up cases and people ignore it? Discuss what I'm actually saying. Think "Maenara is probably scum" if you will, but how about "...but she still might have a point here"? I miss that.

Now, onto the points. Dividizzle still ain't doing anything. He's letting the game slide by, letting everyone absolutely screw themselves over and only jumping on the wagons that seem to have major traction - Except, granted, for the one on the masons, which he must've miscalculated. Probably was because Buldermar started it. He keeps asking questions, too - Not the good kind, the kind that goes "So, why did you shoot Mr. Doe, scum?", but the kind that are more like "So, what do you think we should do now? Because I'd sure like for you to like me." He's obvious scum, and there's only one person, as far as I can see, with a townread on him.

That person, of course, is Smashbard. If Smash and Eleison really are the masons, I weep for town. It's... Not very good. They've messed up the claiming, in such a case, Eleison has dropped the ball by disappearing half the time, no matter the reason, and Smashbard's reads are all over the place. Calling Dividizzle town for wanting to lynch masons while calling Hiraki town for not wanting to lynch masons? Anyone? It's... Not very good. And his bull about having town-reads on people because they trust him as town - The only others who know if he's speaking the truth are mafia. If anything, absolute certainty on the issue is a scumtell. Smashbard seemed like town the first day, but by now, his absolutely off-his-rocker arguments have torn that apart.

CombinatorialEnigma... I don't know. All I've read from him screams scum, along with Dividizzle at the very least and possibly Jun, though that one confuses me too. But his stupid bloody video and the bet which everybody seems to be focusing on annoys and confuses me. I'd like him to actually take a stance, and start doing some proper pro-town work. That, indeed, would be nice.

Theo is a null-read leaning town. He can call it fence-sitting if he wants, but I've got absolutely no reason to want him dead and gone. If he's town, he's doing a good job, if he's scum... He's also doing a good job, because I have nothing on him I could make stick. He doesn't like me, but what the hell. I know I've been playing poorly too.

Numbers... Needs to post more and stop rolefishing. Like, now.

More might follow, but I'd like it if people would actually try to comment on what I've said without going "You're scum and therefore all you say is scummy and we don't trust that, so we'll ignore it."

And seeing as we're apparently going to believe the bloody masons after all, I'll go back to trying to get Dividizzle strung up.

UNVOTE: Eleison
VOTE: Dividizzle

[Maenara]

Oh, come on. Unilaterally declaring a person scum is always worth commenting on, whether or not one agrees. CE's bull about not having something to comment on, for instance, while he refrains to actually address my points, is somewhat suspicious. He doesn't even bother to say why he finds my wall scummy, but just dismisses the entire thing.

Perhaps if people are ignoring my points, it's because they're stuck in their perceptions, and can't be arsed to actually sit down and think?

Well, or scum. There's that, too.

[Maenara]

I'm not scum, Maenara. You just made a whole post about thinking outside your perception, about considering other options if your top scum read isn't scum. Yet, you don't seem to be doing that at all. I'm confused and probably too cautious, but that doesn't mean I'm scum.

You're not acting the way a confused townie does. You're acting the way scum in over the heads do. There's plenty of action taking place with which you're generally satisfied, and you're not quite sure how to push it in the right direction, so you pipe down, only to appear whenever you're attacked.

More than half of your recent posts have been within two or three hours of mine. Funny how you always appear in order to deflect attention when I pipe up.

One of the things that makes me question you is statements like the one you made about CE: "All I've read from him screams scum." You have made similar statements about me. These are obviously ridiculous, because it makes it seem like you are trying so hard to twist every little thing into a scum read, when in reality if someone is scum then likely a large number of the things they say can seem very town, but they will mess up or get caught doing something anti-town. That's when you get them. You decide who you want to be scum and then take every little thing they say and create this story about how each thing is oozing scumminess when in reality, it isn't.

I don't believe in single scumslips. That's not how you catch people. Sure, they're a convenient excuse to put them under pressure, and see if they slip up some more, but by themselves, they're not enough.

Despite this, my vote now goes to CE. The fact that he is on the Maneara wagon but Maenara isn't on the CE wagon seems important to me too. Mae could easily push for a CE lynch as CE is doing for Mae. However, if CE were to be town, then I think that whole issue with Maenara protesting the video becomes much more important.

Vote: combinatorialEnigma

Let me guess. You figure that either CE or I am going to be lynched today. If CE, your scumbuddy, gets lynched, you want to be on his wagon in order to get town-cred. On the other hand, you don't want to push it any harder, so you come up with bullshit reasoning. On the other hand, if I get lynched, you don't want to be anywhere near my wagon, because that'd be bad, especially when I'm pushing for your death.

@Theo: Yes, I'm bad at presenting cases. I'll admit that. A large part of that is that I look for trends in behaviour, rather than individual slips, as mentioned, and it's harder to quote a single post when that's not what's twinged my ScumDar. You already said that you found the case semi-convincing, and you had your own suspicions on Dividizzle before, so I'd just like you to, you know, help me out a bit. You're better at questioning people and presenting concise cases, that much is probably already apparent, and even if you end up lynching someone else today, it'd be in your own interest to have Dividizzle solidly pressured.

@Smashbard: Your reason for believing Dividizzle to be town is that he wanted to lynch the masons. This, in spite of the fact that so did I, one of your biggest scum-reads. That's... Mildly inconsistent.

[Maenara]

...

Majiffy.

Replacing Eleison.

Well, this game has just changed.

[Maenara]

I already laid this out as to why Dividizzle is town to me. So its very interesting for Mae to complain about being ignored when he ignores my own reads I already stated. We really are a black tea set.

I don't ignore your reads. In fact, I commented on them in my post up there. Namely, your read on Dividizzle is far-out and absurd, and your justification for having him as townie is the same as your case for having Hiraki be scum.

[Maenara]

Okay, granted, I misread that. Bleh.

Your reads are still screwy.

[Maenara]

Oh, look, Majiffy is expecting everyone to win at Mafiascum by following his flowchart!

More explanations.

@Dividizzle: You're not actually saying anything. "I'm not scum. Why? Because I'd totally be voting for you, even if I'm not. And I don't lynch based on slips, but I don't do it based on body of work either." How is that a defense in any way, shape or fashion?

[Maenara]

Fine, we'll lynch bloody Enigma. Heavens know he hasn't been too busy proving himself town.

UNVOTE: Dividizzle
VOTE: CombinatorialEnigma

PEDIT: Buldermar, stop being an arsehole. Majiffy is a jerk, but there's a line between trashtalk and saying "your limited mental capabilities". Don't fucking cross it.

[Maenara]

Yes, Buldermar, there's a difference. Majiffy is just being rude and aggressive at everyone. You're deliberately insulting someone by stating outright that they're a less than functional person, which, had it been true, would have been a life-altering handicap, and hardly something to use this way.

It is, if you will, the difference between someone whirling a big stick around at everyone, and someone taking a scalpel to another persons face and then salting the wounds. Both are unpleasant, but the second rather more so, and it's not a level of discourse that you should sink to. Crude, aggressive and vulgar, I can handle - Hell, I do it myself. Demeaning and malicious? Not so much.

P-Edit: That's right: Mae is very scummy, and she's the opportunistic scum we can't let go.

How the hell am I opportunistic? I keep trying to sway people into voting other wagons than the ones currently leading! If I was opportunistic, I'd've just constantly joined the biggest wagon by essentially repeating what others had already said.

Compromising on a lynch is not the same as being opportunistic, nor is using slips to apply pressure, for reasons which I've already stated. I am tired of a smear campaign being run against me because I'm willing to change my votes at a quicker-than-tectonic pace.

[Maenara]

This is Mafiascum, not some social justice warrior idiot's tumblr.

#You should not make any post, or start any thread, with the intention of abusing, ridiculing, insulting, offending, or upsetting any other user on this site. Within a game, criticism of another player's play is acceptable - making it personal is not, and may result in action by the moderator of that game. Outside a game, determination of the intention of the poster will be made by mith, or someone appointed by mith.
# Most "swear" words are not banned. However, going out of your way to annoy or upset users who find certain words offensive falls under the previous guideline.
# Certain words which are particularly offensive to a group of people (by race, gender, sexual orientation, or mental capacity) may be deleted on sight depending on the context.

Indeed. This is Mafiascum. And you might wish to acquaint yourself a bit better with the bloody rules of the place, instead of insulting me when I ask another player to keep it a bit more civil.

[Maenara]

1) I meant that I'm a new player playing sorta poorly, in case you hadn't noticed. "Depending" on me is stupid; you should listen to my opinion, and weigh my arguments, but depending on me is out of the question, and hence a lousy hypothetical.

2) No way, no how. I'm not comfortable with the way the tone is going at the moment, and I'm perfectly within my rights, commenting on it.

[Maenara]

Just to clarify: are Buldermar and Theo obv. town? and when you said "depending on which

side

you lean to", what do you exactly refer to with "side" and how it relates to Buldermar and Theo, who of them is in the good side?

Now, just because you're a newb it doesn't mean you can't understand the game and be confident about yourself, right? Buldermar led the Shinori's wagon and he was wrong, he's not been in the site much longer than you, but he was confident about his read and tried to lead town where he thought was the best lynch. Think about it and tell me why town couldn't depend on you at any moment, just like it could depend on any of us...

Your play is harmful for town as you just point out some "scummy" things but you're not confident about it (and don't even care to press your scummy read enough) and spread your votes everywhere when there's a chance. If your wagons don't gain the "traction" you expect, maybe it's because you're not pushing enough, so you, in an OPPORTUNISTIC way, simply goes over someone who has gained that "traction".

This play of you is making you look very scummy and that's why my bet is on you...

Theo and Buldermar were the only ones actually arguing for stuff, and they disagreed. Hence that.

Buldermar said "Hey, let's do a compromise lynch" and we all did it because time was running out. It's not the same situation.

I press my bloody read, but people ignore it. There's nothing bloody opportunistic about abandoning one's pet wagon and compromising towards the end of the day.

None of what you're saying is making actual sense, and I don't see you scumhunting at all. Should I revoke my town-read on you, or are you going to say something useful? Your playstyle-critique-to-scumhunting ratio is not particularly good. That needs to change.

[Maenara]

Right, let's just lynch Enigma, seeing as he apparently doesn't have the decency to replace out when he no longer cares about the game.

[Maenara]

Stop bloody spamming the thread.

@TheButtonMen, Numbers, Majiffy: Vote for either me or Enigma. Anything else is ridiculous at this point.

[Maenara]

...two town roleblockers?

[Maenara]

Yes. Clearly, I'm scum, which is why I so strongly campaigned for CE's lynch.

Except the part where I didn't. Look, we're looking at probably four scum total. If I'm one, go ahead and try to construct a bloody scumteam with me in it. Not many possibilities, are there? Now, look at Dividizzle - Try to construct one permutation where he isn't on the scumteam. It's not very easy.

Continue to think me scum if you absolutely must, but the probability of hitting scum on Dividizzle is quite simply greater.

I haven't had time to re-read everything yet and try to connect the dots, myself, but at least consider stuff before lynching me. Even if you do end up deciding that I'm obviously scum, you have nothing to gain from lynching me quickly. At best, you end up tomorrow in MyLo once more, this time with even fewer leads, and at worst, you lose.

Meanwhile, I'll try to salvage what has been a thoroughly horrible performance by myself and try to link together some folks with the recent deaths in mind. I did expect Theo to be town, but heavens know the same can't be said for CE. Good riddance to bad rubbish, even if I'd have preferred to not lose the role he had.

Be back with more tomorrow.

[Maenara]

You're right, Dividizzle.

You're also still scum.

VOTE: Dividizzle

Another post of nothing but game theory, and I refuse to believe in any situation with a 4-man team not including at least one of Buldermar and Dividizzle. This is not to say that I suspect Buldermar particularly much at current time, merely that if Dividizzle is town, I believe he is almost certainly scum.

[Maenara]

Oh, look, the mafia is going for a flawless win.

[Maenara]

Well, it just so happens that I am, in fact, a vanilla townie.