Open 473: Jungle Republic GAME OVER

[Tajun]

Confirm

[Tajun]

Alright, I think Whiskers has sufficiently overreacted to warrant a vote.

VOTE: Whiskers

A bit nervous about Alduskkel as well, the mod vote feels a bit forced, and not all that useful. Alduskkel, any thoughts on the minor wagon here?

[Tajun]

Why do you think HD is a townie?

[Tajun]

Pro is going to be hugging Thor's leg the first few days of the game, Thor will defend him right back, and then on day, oh, 3? Prohawk will turn around and say, "jeez guys, I was wrong! Thor must be mafia!"
Aaah, we have two scumteams. ok.

What do you mean by this? Did you mean that you think Thor and Prohawk are on opposed scumteams? If so, why the suspicion of Thor, and why do you think they are not aligned?

also Tajun, i think, asked why I think HD is townie.
I don't necessarily. originally, it was, "He's town if ProHawk is scum", unless ProHawk was sheeping his scumbuddy-- but I doubted that a little bit.
Of course, considering Mafia & Werewolves, "He's not the same alignment as ProHawk" unless prohawk was sheeping his buddy, which = [HD might be either town or scum], if [PH is one of town or scum] = NO USEFUL INFORMATION.

Too soon to call.

I'm almost afraid to ask, but why did you call HD a townie in post 35, if this is the case?

not sure what to make of alduskkel soft pushing the whisker wagon yet.

don't like how easily prohawk was convinced to sheep
or how he passes off some of his vote responsibility to thor
or his follow up attacks on whiskers

vote: ProHawk

Don't like this case one bit. The first two points were irrelevant as they were in RVS, and the third I simply don't agree with. I think he was looking for a wagon to join, and found a weak excuse. I don't like his reactions to Thor page three either.

Page 2 has scum slips for Aldus and town slips for Thor.

Aldus voting mod that is ridiculous and are trying to do nothing and dismiss it as "having fun". Staying in RVS?
I don't have Whiskers and Prohawk as being aligned. I don't buy them as bussing each other. But Whisker's wagon though is built out of confirmation bias that everyone has for Thor so it looks like a damn reach.
Tajun is also scum slipping. Two "question-prods"? Yeah, no. Scum #2.

Vote: Aldus

Where are Thor's "townslips" as you call them? (Yeah, more questions. Deal with it.)

Alright, I think Whiskers has sufficiently overreacted to warrant a vote.

VOTE: Whiskers

A bit nervous about Alduskkel as well, the mod vote feels a bit forced, and not all that useful. Alduskkel, any thoughts on the minor wagon here?

If I may ask, what makes you think it's an overreaction? Whiskers said one, maybe two

minorly

scummy things during his textwall (and frankly, being

too

town once a vote's been placed on you is one of the biggest scumtells of all). Everything else was a completely valid point.

The points were valid enough, on the whole. What struck me as an overreaction was that he decided to make a wall defence of an RVS wagon in the first place, not really how he went about doing it. Serious overreaction to a weak/non-existant case.

Still a bit suspicious, but for now,
UNVOTE:
VOTE: 4nxi3ty

The above is the scummiest thing I have seen so far. The Alduskkel wagon is meh at best, he isn't really being helpful, but he is also not trying to avoid attention, and he seems fairly forthright so far. Ditto the Prohawk wagon; I hate to tell you guys, but assholishness isn't indicative of alignment, and I don't see much of a case beyond that.

[Tajun]

I'm almost afraid to ask, but why did you call HD a townie in post 35, if this is the case?

I thought HD was more likely townie for making the RVS vote on Thor, and ProHawk more likely scum for sheeping it (sneaky sneaky), and that they probably weren't on the same team (meaning, 1 town, 1 scum) because scumplayers don't usually sheep their teammates like that (and prohawk is a very experienced player; 15+ games onsite iirc).
Then I remembered that there are two scumteams, so HD could be scum doing it anyway, and ProHawk could be otherscum.

I had a really weak townread on HD, and now it's a really weak town-or-scumread.

Headache.... Ok, questions for you:

1) Why is voting Thor in RVS a town move by HD? Specifically, why is it now a town move, and in post 24 a scummy move?
2) Why is sheeping an RVS vote scummy when Prohawk does it, and not, say, when Sky does it? Also, why is it at all?
3) What does town-or-scumread mean?

Don't like this case one bit. The first two points were irrelevant as they were in RVS, and the third I simply don't agree with. I think he was looking for a wagon to join, and found a weak excuse. I don't like his reactions to Thor page three either.

scum can be uncomfortable in the beginning of the game, not used to how things are flowing, and make mistakes. Actions shouldn't be disregarded because of RVS.

Actions shouldn't be disregarded because of RVS, certainly, but if tomorrow some clown were to vote the mod I'd take that as ridiculous and probably scum motivated. The reason I didn't say that earlier was that actions must be reinterpreted in RVS, they really have different meanings. I don't think either of those actions you mentioned are scummy in RVS, which leads me to question whether you actually believed your case or just wanted an easy target. I also doubt very much that Prohawk was uncomfortable on page one.

Anyway, not a huge fan of 4nxi3ty's responses, my vote stays atp. In current events, HD's attack on Whiskers is really off, I doubt very much scum Whiskers would intentionally bring the wrath of everyone down on himself by posting a fake vote count, and ProHawk is right that he isn't really scumhunting at all. This would probably be my second fave right now.

Pedit: Welcome Majiffy!

[Tajun]

EBWOP: ProHawk is right that HD isn't really scumhunting at all, in case that isn't clear from context.

[Tajun]

{ProHawk, HD, Whiskers}
Primary lynch candidates.
{Rob, Aldu}
Secondary lynch candidates.
{Anxiety, Thor, Auspicious}
Never lynch candidates.

VOTE: ProHawk

@ Majiffy: Please explain the 4nxi3ty read. I'll assume you have a good reason, if you are putting him in the Never lynch candidates group, and I'd like to hear it.

@Whiskers: Fine, better question smart ass. Why did you say "I thought HD was more likely townie for making the RVS vote on Thor" if you didn't believe it? And why are you denying that you said it when it is in black and white on page 1? You might want to try reading you're own quotes before you call other people idiots for quoting you correctly. BTW, "town-or-scumread" is just about the worst phrasing I have ever heard, if you mean null read just say that.

*goes to post #44*

@Thor: Of the two, one was more likely townie Than The Other.

Ald: It's picking up steam, so I'm wary. Why would a wagon pick up steam? If scum were supporting it.

Currently, I'm torn between listening & sheeping Rob (He's right, HD

has

shown newbishness) and putting my vote back on Pro, and saying, "Well then, let's lynch HD. If he flips scum, we'll look at you next".

Let me put it this way: I'm a bit of a pussy. For all the talk, lynching someone is still a big move and I'm nervous around actually doing it.

Give me a break. This has got to be the worst reasoning for switching off a wagon I have ever heard.
a) There are two scumteams. Even without anyone bussing (which is in no way guaranteed), a scum can get to L-2 without any trouble, especially if he is playing aggressively like Prohawk.
b) By this logic, you would never join any serious wagons.

I note also that you just joined a wagon with one person on, another expressing willingness to join (Majiffy) and myself and others expressing suspicion. Why join this one, if it is scum supported?

Long story short, your arguments don't make any sense, your little connection between Rob and HD screams of deflecting attention, and your inconsistencies in play are adding up beyond my suspension of disbelief. I also note that you have shown suspicion of all three moderately serious non-you candidates (votes on ProHawk and HD, and this little gem "Guys, Aldsukkel's a great lynch, I'm sure, but we can only do one a day and this guy is it."). Is it possible all three are scum? Sure, very long outside chance in this setup. Is it more likely that you don't care who we lynch as long as it isn't you? Why yes, yes it is! For all your talk of disliking wagons, you are front and centre on today's scoping of targets.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Whiskers

[Tajun]

Sorry guys, swamped at work late today and yesterday. Will make a proper catchup post tomorrow.

[Tajun]

Sorry, still busy. I'll have more to say tomorrow. Two things of top priority right now:

1) Whiskers, you wanted to know why I was hammering away at that point. Primarily, it's because I don't believe you that you didn't realize that there were two scum teams, and I think you screwed up hard. It does make sense to say that you believe that Prohawk being scum and HD being not on the same team means that HD is town, but only if you have one of the teams worked out already. Ie. you are on it. I wasn't sure at first, which was why I questioned you on it. But you went from giving a bad reasoning to denying you said it at all, which leads me to believe you were trying to dodge a major screwup on your part, by playing it down as nothing. <-- This is a big part of why I think this guy is scum.

2) Prohawk is town guys. Read his responses again, this guy thinks you are all morons for thinking he is scum. You don't get that when you accuse actual scum, you get people defensive. Prohawk believes what he is saying, he's the only definite town read I've got here.

4nxi3ty's last couple of posts were better. Whiskers and HD are my top choices atp. Still don't really see alduskkel, he is more of a meh read than Prohawk's def town, but I don't really see the reason for him to be the second major wagon. We might get lucky there, but we can do a lot better.

[Tajun]

Ok, going back a little ways:

She's not someone I would want to lynch today for sure.

Why?

She was a town read for me until recently. Right now I would call her null. I want to see more to determine alignment before I push her lynch. I think a flip or two might help me determine her alignment, so I'd prefer to wait on those. Of course, if she were to do anything extremely scummy I would reconsider.

Who's flips would you like to see for determining his alignments? Do you see obvious potential partners, or what?

Do I smell defeat?

No, you read it smart-guy.

C'mon guys, this guy is town to the core. Getting weak town on Sky too, tbh, although I don't like his Prohawk read. Just gut on this one.

2) Prohawk is town guys. Read his responses again, this guy thinks you are all morons for thinking he is scum.

You must be new here.

Fairly... Still though, I've seen his brand of behaviour from a hell of a lot more town than scum in my limited experience. Scum usually either shut up or fight tooth and nail to hang on, he isn't doing either.

VOTE: Whiskers

Probably the worst misrep I've ever seen on this site (pay no attention to my join date :/)

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Alduskkel

I'm surprised that wall actually convinced me to unvote Whiskers. Oh well, it did.

I've also still got this problem where you voted me because I messed up the votecount. Someone pointed out (maybe it was actually Prhawk?) when PH said he was at L-1 when he actually wasn't, you didn't check anything, you just went along with it.

And don't think I'm not wary of uctriton in that post-- he quite often championed me, and that sets off all kinds of warnings in my head.

So all together we have:
you vote me.
uctriton makes a post that makes me out to be some great obvious townie.
you are "surprisingly convinced" by it.
It looks like scumbuddy coaching. Is it too early to tell? Yeah, but that doesn't mean I'm not suspicious.

Vote: Human Destroyer

Argh. Each time someone brings up Prohawk, he looks like scum. But each time I look at HD, HE looks like scum.

This reads like a bus to me. The comment is awfully weak, I doubt scum would respond to coaching that obviously, and Whiskers leaves himself room to jump back to Prohawk if things heat up on HD. The fact that they are two of my top scum reads doesn't hurt, but I think it holds water on its own. 306-309 also looks like distancing.

After post 310, I like 4nxi3ty more. Sky isn't such a bad choice, but right now Whiskers and HD are top priorities.

On the Thor Majiffy fight here, I'm getting town on Majiffy (especially after 340), not sure about Thor. Definitely not my top choices though.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Human Destroyer

I still prefer Whiskers, for the record, but this guy is a good second choice.

[Tajun]

Who's flips would you like to see for determining his alignments? Do you see obvious potential partners, or what?

I don't discuss hypotheticals. I have some stuff in my notes, but it's all contingent on my assumptions regarding the alignments of others being correct, which is not always the case. Discussing a hypothetical situation for IF we lynch a specific person and IF that person flips scum is a waste of the town's time.

---

I stopped reading the Majiffy v Thor slap-fight around half a page ago. Answer this for me, Majiffy. What is the scum motivation for what Thor's done? It looks to me like you're splitting hairs with him over the exact meaning of his original post without actually establishing that scum-Thor would be more likely than town-Thor to do all this.

Don't like this. It's too easy to interpret any kind of a flip as scummy (or towny for that matter) on another, unless you make a prediction you are just being wishy washy saying you want to wait for flips. If you think a particular flip would change your opinion, say so and say which one. Otherwise, you are just leaving your options open to make a case later in any scenario, which reads as pretty scummy from where I am sitting.

I still prefer Whiskers

, for the record, but this guy is a good second choice.

Why vote me if you prefer Whiskers?

Oh, by the way, Aldus is still scum, you guys should all join his wagon

Because he has had lots of pressure, and people don't seem to register the fact that his responses have been ridiculous. You could use some more pressure, and you're a very good lynch in my books. You're a very close second, btw.

Oh, by the way, Aldus is still scum, you guys should all join his wagon

Tell me why. I don't see him as that bad anymore.

But first, I'd like to mention that my Alduskkel read has slipped back to nullish. I re-read his ISO and the case wasn't that strong as compared to other reads I have. I might revisit him in the future when he has more content out.

My early suspicions are just that - early. They weren't that substantial. Don't get me wrong - Alduskkel is still on the scummy side of null. He's certainly not screaming townie. He also hasn't acted as scummy as my other scum reads, though.

In other words, think of my reads like a line. Early on, Alduskkel was the player closest to the scum side of the line, but he still was never terribly far from the center. Alduskkel hasn't moved on the line, but other people have moved past him by doing things that are more scummy than him.

These quotes strike me as off. Alduskkel comes in, acts in a way you deem scummy, then disappears, and he first slips back to nullish for his trouble then back to maybe a bit scummy? You don't seem too sure what you think of him, and, frankly, the scummiest thing I have seen from him is that he disappeared after pressure started to fade on him, leaving us to make cases on other targets and ignore him. You seem to be not troubled by this. If he flips scum, I'm looking at you next.

[Tajun]

BTW Auspicious, you don't need to unvote before voting for it to count. Some people appreciate it, but most people have votes up usually anyway, so the unvote is implied.

[Tajun]

I think Majiffy has the upper hand in this brawl as well. But the case is so ridiculously nitpicky, I don't think it's the best choice for a lynch.

Rob seemed entirely too hesitant on that vote. I feel like he was weighing in some unknown factors in his mind before finally committing.

^This and this. The "case" on Thor is pretty weak, based on an anal take on a post which I happen to agree with. Rob is being intentionally thick, not sure why but I like Sky's explanation. Feeling town on Sky atp. ProHawk's post 413 was terribad, forgot to mention that last time. Doesn't really strike me as scummy, but I'd be far less broken up if he were to die, however he might flip. Lynching scum is really obviously better, you get better information (can look for connections between the player and others, not just who attacked whom) and even if we were lynching randomly the odds would be way better if we were to lynch more scum. Thing is, I can't come up with a reason for scum ProHawk to spout such insanity, any more so than town ProHawk. Still convinced this boy is flipping town.

Pedit: Curious about why you think Sky is a decent chance scum/partner for HD, auspicious.
And is that all you have on him uctriton? There are people out there seriously in need of lynching, I don't really think he is one of them.

[Tajun]

Then why'd you change?

Because you weren't answering or even trying to engage me, other than saying "eh I don't know I'm not sure hmmmmmmm".

Thor vs Majiffy? I'm null on them both. I just know that they're not aligned. The only thing I have is that Majiffy's approach was more aggressive than Thor. I'm not going to pull a guess out of thin air with that.

I'll add my voice to the choir of those who would like an explanation on this. Also, by "not aligned", are you eliminating the possibility that both are town?

Because you weren't answering or even trying to engage me, other than saying "eh I don't know I'm not sure hmmmmmmm".

I admit to missing your first question about how you remind me of me awhile back. Show me where I say "hmmm."

Also seconding Thor's question as to how you know they're different alignments. Bussing does exist.

How and what have I dodged?

The whole making Najiffy find quotes towards the end of the massive back and forth. And some of the posts where you just come in and say blanket statements like "pedantic" or "you bore me."

And now I question my weak town on Sky. Something about this and post 465 strike me as off, like he is making excuses for future behaviour. Sky, could you link us to a town game where you play as what you call "dodgy"? Also, I'm curious why you automatically assumed that uctriton meant not the same scumteam, rather than not both the same alignment (town or scum), as it seemed to me.

It *is* an attempt to discredit you - yes. I thought that was fairly clear. I honestly didn't think you could do it, and you're proving me right thus far.

I thought I was quite lacking in credit already, but if you insist.

-Dodging and dancing around answers to Majiffy's inquires about why the people on ProHawk's wagon were on there for "provably bad" reasons.
-Forcing Majiffy to prove you wrong rather than you proving that you're right; if you're right, why can't you prove it?

Liking my vote where it is a lot right now. Majiffy and Thor had basically the same arguments; that the other was refusing to make his point properly. Frankly, the whole thing looked like a pissing contest to me. HD, however, has decided that Majiffy's arguments were superior, and that he is worth sheeping. I'm not seeing anything but opportunism here.

I'm saying this:

Majiffy has won the argument against you. You've been doing dodgy stuff that makes you null. This is significant because you've lost your standing as pro-town.

But I am not going to lynch you today because there are better candidates.

This comment also weirds me out, at a gut level. Can't put my finger on it, maybe just that I don't think the argument was a beatdown as much as others do, maybe this seems like he is leaving his options open too much, but something seems wrong here.

[Tajun]

^How would you expect me to react differently as scum?

(Hint: I generally don't like self-hammering)

the way you want point out who to look at is very much a town thing to do
scum you probably doesn't have enough experience to fake something like that

Really? That would be odd, as just about every game someone ends up posting like this while getting lynched. Any reason you don't think HD would be able to?

HD, what is your current take on Whiskers?

[Tajun]

Sorry, been busy (read: drunk) this weekend.

Okay... Suspicions on Majiffy and Rob for jumping off that wagon so quickly upon being told to by Thor, whom they BOTH have claimed to have had suspicions of... Majiffy, could you explain how your read on HD evolved?

I'm off V/LA now. I kept up somewhat with this game while on V/LA, but frankly discussion seems to have stalled. Thor and Majiffy are essentially using the same arguments against each other. They're both being lazy hypocrites. Thor's being more upfront about it than Majiffy. Both of them are starting to look like complete null to me.

Sky's looking more townish in my book. His direct interaction with 4nx doesn't look to be coming from scum, in my opinion.

Lastly, HD's recent posting is not scum-HD, at least not that I remember. HD gives up much quicker than he did as scum. He doesn't keep scumhunting and broadcasting reads.

That leaves me with literally one scum read in ProHawk, which is fucking pathetic in a game where 5/12 players are scum. I fail.

Unvote
Vote ProHawk

Rob, could you explain this? I really don't follow what you said there about HD. Did he give up quicker as scum (and could you post a link)?

Thor, could you explain your HD read? I don't see anything particularly town in his recent posting, picking a fight to avoid going to the gallows is pretty standard in my experience. And now he is going for a lurker lynch, essentially (aldus is a pretty easy target if he is trying to deflect). I still think he is flipping scum, unless someone can give me a damn good reason why not.

[Tajun]

HD's comprehension of the argument we had leans him town. I reckon scum would be more apt to ignore the argument entirely.

Comprehending that argument wasn't hard. You wanted Thor to post an explanation for a comment, he didn't want to. You called his refusal scummy, he said prove it. It went on for a day and a half and spammed the thread for about three pages. Is this the only reason you have for backing off after sending him to L-1 and forcing a claim?

[Tajun]

TBH, Whiskers has floated back to null for me as well, I liked some of his recent posts (575, 578) a fair deal. But if HD was out to deflect his upcoming lynch, I think he would have put the time and effort in to reading that thoroughly as town or scum, to find another target. I don't really see how that changes things on his end.

[Tajun]

That's a fair point, but it is somewhat nullified IMO by the fact that he was asked specifically about why he was targeting Thor, which he had chosen to do on fairly sheepy reasons originally. He made it sound good, yeah, but frankly I don't see a lot of new insight in his analysis of it.

[Tajun]

How so? I don't think he is scummy for explaining his Thor read, and his read on the fight. I just don't see where you get town on him from it.

PEdit: This was at Majiffy.

[Tajun]

I don't really see it. I guess if Rob comes back with a history of HD giving up as scum and not as town, I'll reconsider (or I'll do the research myself tomorrow maybe). But absent of that, I don't think I see this. If I had put myself in a bad spot by sheeping a vote, then been asked to explain it, you'd better believe I would do it if the case was already made for me, whether I was town or scum. I don't think this is a reliable town tell.

[Tajun]

Then why did you put him to L-1 a full 2 days after he voted Thor (claiming to be sheeping you)?

[Tajun]

That's... actually, that's a surprisingly good answer, considering. Meh, I'll check the meta tomorrow.

[Tajun]

@HD: Going after Whiskers was the first offence. A visceral reaction to his votecount might be a vote on him, but five seconds of thought makes it obvious that he had no reason to do that as scum. Your jumping all over it made it look like you were more interested in getting your vote on him earlier than others than you were about thinking whether that was likely to come from town or scum. Dropping your vote like you did felt off as well. Your push on Aldus seemed like a vote placeholder, telling people that they should vote him and that he was scummy repeatedly doesn't exactly count as pushing his wagon. When Thor became the flavour of the week, you jumped over there, claiming sheeping as your reason. Your responses under pressure are passable, but going through your entire set of posts I see very little scumhunting and a lot of reacting to specific questions, along with sheeping arguments.

Am trying to go through HD's meta, but he is active in about thirty games.

@Mod: Can players post links to ongoing games, to show meta? We won't discuss them beyond that, I swear.

It doesn't really matter right now I guess, since his wagon has fallen to pieces, but I'd like to figure his meta out.

Alduskkel I can see as a worthy lynch maybe, but sky I can't really. Gone back and forth on him a bit, but all told a weak town read there.

@auspicious: Can you explain your suspicion of sky? You keep saying he seems like scum, but I don't see any reasoning there.

VOTE: Alduskkel

His lurking is beyond bad right now. Let's see if votes wake him.

[Tajun]

Well I have scum meta now, but I'm not sure how well you'll get an idea of my scumplay because the setup is quite unorthodox.

Also you're voting the same person as your supposed "biggest scum read"

Thx, I'll take a look. BTW, with 2 scumteams that means less than nothing. Although I don't really put you both on the same team, I could easily see you two on opposing ones. We shall see.

As for the Aldus PL, I am fine with it. He is a bit scummy, and we have a fair deal of info from interactions with him over the day. In addition, the mafia have every reason to lurk like that and not participate usefully, there's a pretty good chance he'll flip maf (although wolf I kinda doubt, unless that is just his style).

[Tajun]

I still think he is a bit scummy, from his earlier posting. I prefer his more recent posting, although I find his recent disappearance odd, to say the least. Not a bad lynch, all told.
Alduskkel, what are your thoughts on Whiskers?

[Tajun]

4nxiety what is it that bothers you so much about an Aldus lynch.

don't have a strong read on ald. Some of his posts are good, others not so much. I'm not in the business of lynching null reads.

Which of his posts are good? I don't see a lot to like in that iso.

We've still got a couple days, it's not a major issue if people aren't on a filling wagon right now. Actually, what people do when a deadline is imminent is where some of the best info comes from, IMO. Let's see what our missing comrades have to say here, I'd guess that at least one or two of them are scum not wanting to pick a side here.

[Tajun]

Still think that Hawk is town, although his recent downturn of activity is a bit awkward. Whiskers' buddying argument is a stretch, I'm having a hard time seeing those three as being that obvious, and very rarely can that be seen day 1 in my experience. I think Aldus is our best option here, out of those two (three, if sky is considered).

BTW,

I'm pretty sure that that is L-1 on Hawk

, although someone should check that properly, I have to run.

[Tajun]

Whiskers is pretty bad, but I think a big part of me just wants to kill him to end the post wall insanity. On the other hand, reading Thor's last six posts of day one, especially

I will clarify that I do still support a Whiskers lynch if people wise up.
I oppose the Ald lynch now.

and

Because of the way you are pushing him and the way Whiskers is defending him.
Don't get me wrong - his posting is bad, but the relationships look better for him.

I think we already have our man. Post 762 is absolutely toxic, in a two scumteam game this is way beyond irrelevant. I don't think he had a reason to ditch Aldus' wagon, and considering how much it has screwed the wolves to lose a man day one, I think he just aborted the bus and tried to redirect the lynch without a good reason because he didn't think he could win if he lost his partner too early.

VOTE: Thor

[Tajun]

Don't even fucking start. Majiffy has done this twice, once with me, once with Thor, and is trying to get me to do it again. You want the walls to stop? Fucking back me up. Or back Majiffy up. Or do something. Right now it's me against him, and he has the advantage of ignoring what he doesn't want to answer and interpreting the things I write in ways that don't make sense, but would seem to prove me to be scum.

You've done this with me and Thor as well, every time a wagon appears on you you defensive wall post until the other person gets tired of arguing. It makes me want you dead, to be blunt, because I can't parse through your godawful walls and I have difficulty determining anything worthwhile about your alignment from those posts. But I'm not going to vote you, because I think that Uctriton's post 225 makes you very unlikely mafia and I think that Thor is the final wolf. Vote stays right where it is.

HD is a solid option as well, if we want to lynch maf today instead of wolf. From Uctriton's only post with content:

Tajun pointing to HD, starting to scumhunt. Feel better about Tajun.

Page 7:
I'm null towards the HD wagon. I'm going to need an explanation on where the scummy is. Good on Whiskers for calling out the fact it's seeming to pick up too much steam at once.

He likes me for attacking HD, but feels the wagon is null, and doesn't see how he is scummy? Right. Later:

HD also has a wagon on him but I need to ISO him more. I have odd times deciding him based on his tone.

And HD I'm waiting for his meta to clear so I can read it.

Unvote

on Sky, I've gotten a town read on him in the second half of the posts.

Aldus has still disappeared and is turning into a PL that I'd be fine with.

I have a town read on HD. His passive attitude is because he's short or something. It flows with his meta.

All told, this reeks of trying desperately not to have any interesting interactions with a buddy. And, from HD,

PEOPLE THAT YOU SHOULD BE SAD FOR EVER CONSIDERING FOR LYNCH:

Majiffy
uctriton

No reasoning or anything crazy like that, just a townread on a (now) flipped scum who had done nothing worth looking at all game. Not to mention the fact that HD was already the scummiest person in the thread as of yesterday, IMO.

[Tajun]

Go back and tell me who each one of your nameless quotes was from and then I'll read your wall. This is posting 101, guys.

P-edit: What HD said, I guess. I doubt my area will be hit bad, though.

Well. Let's see, there's uctriton in the first three, like I said. Then there's HD in the last one. You know, also like I said. You might want to take reading 101 before you try teaching posting 101.

@Tajun: I argued a little bit with Thor, to try to get some value out of the Majiffy vs Thor fight. I vaguely remember arguing with you, but wasn't that also, you know, for some reason? Like, to get answers or understand something? Majiffy is perpetuating arguments for argument's sake.

It's the way you do it. You take a five line post against you and turn it into a two wall rebuttal. God, you were doing it by page 2, that's why I voted you in the first place. Then it happened with me. Then with Majiffy. Majiffy is a bit like that, but when he was fighting with Thor he was hammering home a point. It happened to be a weak point, but he was focused and targeted. The only time he has gotten into these bloody wall wars is with you, because neither of you seems to be able to describe in a concise and organized fashion what your issues are.

[Tajun]

It's the way you do it. You take a five line post against you and turn it into a two wall rebuttal.

It's because it's easy to make bad attacks in just a line or two, but to reasonably refute them could take paragraphs.
In this case, it doesn't help that Majiffy is fighting me on every little thing, whether part of his attack or not.

And if it happened once, fine. But every page is just you arguing right now, and it is making it impossible to tell what your point is without parsing your posts for an hour. Next time Majiffy makes a wall attack on you, tell him to find a few specific points to make or to cram it with walnuts. Don't engage him when he is being an ass.

[Tajun]

a) Do you have a point?

b) If I was his partner, I would have done any coaching in QT. A tad blatant there, no?

[Tajun]

I see. So the options are:

1) I failed to notice that my partner was viciously engaging everyone with walls day 1, in spite of the fact that I voted him for it, or somehow forgot/failed to give him that info in QT. I then decided to blatantly do it in thread instead.

OR
2) I think that there is a decent chance that Whiskers is town, and I just wanted to stop the wall insanity.

Tough call.

[Tajun]

Thor, could you explain post 762? That is, could you explain the reasoning through which you decided Aldus was town from those interactions?

[Tajun]

I thought Whiskers' defense lacked any real logic - hence was scum defending suspected town for town points later.
I thought that too many people were pushing him for reasoning that was, in reality, pretty weak, therefore likely scum pushing him.
There were enough numbers in those groups combined to make me suspect scum from both teams were pushing Aldus and therefore he was more likely town than scum.
I said all that already though and am basically just re-stating it here, maybe clue me in to what point is confusing you or seems strange?

The reasoning was a bit weak, sure, but I don't really get how you got town from that. I guess I can see it though. What are your thoughts on Whiskers now (other than not as scummy as sky)?

Whiskers, since you haven't felt inclined to place a vote, would you mind telling us how you feel about the players today? Do you still think Auspicious is the most likely scum, and how do you feel about HD and Thor in particular?

Prohawk, what in god's name is this?

There are only two wolves Thor. You don't need to save anyone else.

This desperately needs an explanation.

[Tajun]

If he is a wolf, he already knew that. Try again.

[Tajun]

What do you want me to try exactly? His response was a sarcastic, "look at how dumb this sounds" to make it seem like he isn't a wolf. My response was one-in-the-same.

... I have to be honest, it didn't read that way. Guess sarcasm just doesn't translate well, since I can't think of a single reason scum-hawk would do this either.

UNVOTE:

Thinking.

Thought of anything yet?

@Sky - so the first half of your reasoning equates to null in your own words. The AFKness is limited in scope as I did go on a sitewide V/LA but will happily listen to what things you think I dodged. The counterwagon...why is my vote the worst on it in your mind?

I don't recall you announcing a V/LA. You were active until the most critical point of the game, which leads me to wonder why you weren't here. You were also the last on my counterwagon, long after it was deemed I wasn't to be yesterday's lynch. What more, you gave no justification other than not wanting Aidus dead, and whaddya know? He was a wolf. What more, you have placed another vote on me, a wagon that also has no steam, when you could have perfectly compromised on a Whiskers lynch. This is why you are the worst of the counterwagoners.

Thor is right, this is terribad. Your argument defeats itself; if Thor was trying to save his bud, why not vote Whiskers, a far more potent wagon? Did you think this through before you wrote it?

I forgot that I agreed that you were not the lynch.

Why didn't you put your vote some place useful then?

Thanks for just admitting you intentionally impeded progress.

So now you're saying Whiskers is also my partner?

Nope. I'm asking why you aren't voting him/her right now, considering you wanted him/her dead yesterday. Why do you want to slow progress down even more? Yes, I know I'm not on the Whiskers wagon. But I don't want to lynch town. You on the other hand, think s/he's scum. Correct me if I'm wrong.

@Whiskers, m/f? Bout time I resolved this.

People who aren't voting Whiskers...why?

Thorscum that's why. Just look at his second to last post.

And now you are going out of your way to make irrelevant points look scummy. You seem desperate to attack Thor, with frankly pathetic arguments, and I want to know why. For now, you shot to #1 on my list.

VOTE: Sky

[Tajun]

Tajun, Tajun, Tajun...

You're so town, y u no vote Whiskers with me?

Part of me wants to, but Uctriton's posting convinced me he isn't the last maf, and he isn't even at the top of my wolf pool. Pretty low percentage shot atp. What are your thoughts on Sky?

[Tajun]

ebwoy: One of the remaining maf, not the last. Last wolf is possible.

[Tajun]

Awesome. That's a terrible argument, but sure, why not. Any thoughts on who *is* scum, or are you just going to keep telling us why you aren't?

[Tajun]

Isn't it though? Do you have a point/case/vote you would like to share with the class, to supplement your accusations?

PEdit: @Whiskers, comment 1092.

[Tajun]

I seriously don't get why Whiskers isn't dead yet. It's pretty much universally agreed here that she's WW; while Thor and Sky are likely to be scum, they're a smaller threat (especially since they can't kill). Why on earth are you splitting the vote on this?

Right, if we lynch the werewolf.

The case on me is: "Whiskers defended the werewolf," right?

Basically. You defended Aldus when there was no reason for you to. He hadn't dropped any towntells, and frankly, even if he was town, we would have been better off without him. While I can understand not necessarily scumreading him (and instead scumreading someone like Thor), there was literally no reason for you to townread him.

This is the case you feel should convince us all? If not, then please explain how you came to the conclusion that Whiskers is definitive scum in need of death, because I don't see it.

Thor is right, this is terribad. Your argument defeats itself; if Thor was trying to save his bud, why not vote Whiskers, a far more potent wagon? Did you think this through before you wrote it?

...aannnd you're argument defeats itself. WIFOM.

... Whaaat? You're going to have to do better than that.

@Whiskers - why no vote yet?

^ This. FUCKING GOD, THIS.

Your logic to clear Sky now is no scum would bus a buddy and then not bus a buddy later. However, you do think that both he (when you were wrong about his reads) and I were bussing Whiskers and are now fighting the wagon and refusing to bus.

Thor, could you explain what you mean here? Really don't follow your point.

4nx looks worse again, although I honestly can't tell if his posts are scummy or he thinks he has hit something big and I just can't see it.

[Tajun]

Screwed the pooch on those tags, sorry. That's Thor's quote, not Rob's.

[Tajun]

Gotcha, thanks. His points make even less sense when you consider that he is calling Whiskers a likely WW, and not a maf. 4nx, an explanation please?

[Tajun]

Right, that's Rob, my bad. Lost track of the last couple pages in my mind. I think Rob is the only one still entertaining the idea that Whiskers is a good choice for a maf, so I won't bother repeating why it is unlikely. I will say, however, that if we target him as a likely WW, ruling out the idea of him as an uct partner, we have to be three times more certain of that likelihood than of other players to even beat random chance (prob of 9 sided die hitting scum, 3 in 9, prob of Whiskers wolf (ruling out maf) 1 in 7 (without taking into account play)). Am I that certain that his posting is partner defense and not town misguided play? No, I am not, and frankly I think that this lynch is a mistake.

PEdit: Will do, 1 sec.

[Tajun]

Majiffy: Strong town, just gut. Engaging people, driving the play, etc.

Thor: Looking a bit better of late, but still weak scum read, mostly because he fits well on either team and I don't have any trouble imagining him having trouble making himself look town if he so desires (which he would, presumably, with a wagon on him).

Whiskers: Not a maf, could be WW, but not sure on that. Meh.

HD: Pretty well certain that he is maf. See post 975, and note that since being called out as such he has done nothing but prod-dodge. Avoiding outing his partner? Oh yeah.

4nx: Posts need more capitalization . Seriously though, you're near the middle of the pack, said some stuff I agree with and a lot I don't, but don't see much scum intent. Probably weak town if I had to choose.

Sky: A lot more I don't like, and also fits in well with both teams. Scum.

Rob: Pisses me off, he's like Prohawk minus smart. As much as I would enjoy seeing him die, I don't see anything scummy there. Weak town.

Auspicious: Posts seem genuine, but needs more content. Another weak town.

Prohawk: Said earlier why I think he is town. His recent indifference has weakened it a bit, but still solid town there.

Pedit: Thor, can you comment on Uct's post 225? I have a

really

hard time seeing Whiskers as Maf after that.

[Tajun]

Pedit: Thor, can you comment on Uct's post 225? I have a

really

hard time seeing Whiskers as Maf after that.

Because Uct had a town read on her? I'm not sure why that should sell me unless you're saying Uct doesn't do that with scum buddies. Is that what you're saying?

I don't know about uct in particular, but nobody I have seen does THAT with a buddy. Calling him very much town, talking about him smacking down walls, praising his every move, etc. Seems more like the kind of a thing a scum would do to someone he thought was town, so he could go "told ya" after the lynch. It is possible he was just playing a very deep game on us, but reading the rest of his posts he didn't exactly seem like the deep game type.

Vote: ProHawk

That's dumb and you know it.

I fuckin love this guy.

I have a town read on HD. His passive attitude is because he's short or something. It flows with his meta.

PEOPLE THAT YOU SHOULD BE SAD FOR EVER CONSIDERING FOR LYNCH:

Majiffy
uctriton

Don't think uct and HD would defend each other like this as a scum team

I hate it when people make me question my reads... Reread both ISOs. Uctriton's iso points to HD scum in all posts except the one quoted, imo. On the other hand, you have a point on HD's posts, very few scum who think they are going down give a townread on their partner, and I don't read HD as a mastermind particularly either. Could just be a fluke on his part though, and frankly his ISO from today is pretty non-existent. Not sold on him maf anymore, but I'd certainly like to see some analysis from him if he wouldn't mind.

On Whiskers' posts 1170-1174 - I read these as town, he is being pretty blunt and he reads as annoyed, not terrified. He has also thought things through pretty well (1174) and is sharing it bluntly. Also believe his self-hammering comment, which he would (hopefully) never do as a wolf in this situation. I might not like his play much, but I think it is town.

Hmm, Aus and Majiffy beat me to the punch on this comment. They both get towncred. Next post will have Sky case.

[Tajun]

Case on Sky is mostly gut, but here goes.

Posts 97 through 234 are full of WTF? Tunneling on someone who looks like he is going down with a piss-poor case and no analysis is never a good start.

Post 390 4nx3ity makes a very good point,

that's kinda the point, sky has been playing in a way to not get noticed or step on as few toes as possible. He picked two people in prohawk and whisker to attack, two people who were already getting a lot of attention already, an attack that other people wouldn't really be bothered by. (also his reasons for thinking their scum felt weak imo)

Sky blows it off with

I'm glad you're still going on gut reads here.

Frankly I agree with this read of his play, and I don't like the reaction one bit.

The post 454 attacking Prohawk after the wagon had fallen apart was better, seemed genuine. Still, with two scum teams a genuine read on someone doesn't make a person town. He gains a couple points I guess.

I'd guess that at least one or two of them are scum not wanting to pick a side here.

Stating intent to hammer.

Yeah, I know it's cheeky. But I'm calling this one sketchy as fuck.

Also, you two making that list minute change. I sure as shit hope you get me lynched or get online before the deadline because I will not be happy with a no lynch.

And again, this just reads as brutal. Maybe it's just a personality conflict, but the fact that he needs to say this tells me he doesn't believe it.

The vote on Aldus was one of the weakest, he had barely mentioned him all game up until that point. This screams of bussing a surefire dead partner for towncred. Admittedly, near deadline it isn't the worst, this could be town play, but I still don't like it.

His posts today are a giant pile of wtf as well. His attack on Thor was bizarre, and when I called him on it I get

I'm not gonna explain scum strategy to you.

as a response. If he had a good answer for my question, I'm betting he would have said so.

Uct's moves on Sky are nullish, actually they are weird regardless of Sky's alignment. Aldus' are fairly meh too. He's my fave as a wolf right now, and a passable candidate for maf as well.

[Tajun]

Oh yeah, that aldus is one sketchy ass mofo. But I was referring to sky, as with the rest of my post. Just meant Aldus' interactions with Sky didn't really feed the case, but they don't harm it either imo.

[Tajun]

VOTE: HD

Unvote: ProHawk
Vote: HD

UNVOTE:
VOTE: HD

Hey so

No

Considering that pretty much the entire case on me is that I jumped ship from the Aldus wagon and returned to the ProHawk wagon when I thought he was going to flip town...yeah, have fun with that.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Sky

Sheeping 4nx because I'm far and away too lazy to actually go and do the work myself

Maybe tomorrow if I live that long

^I am 100% game for this lynch too, but I would still prefer Sky, simply because I think he is a more likely wolf and equally likely anti-town. HD isn't even pretending to scumhunt anymore. Also, see my iso for a case on you if you are curious, I don't feel like reposting it here.

I don't know about uct in particular, but nobody I have seen does THAT with a buddy. Calling him very much town, talking about him smacking down walls, praising his every move, etc. Seems more like the kind of a thing a scum would do to someone he thought was town, so he could go "told ya" after the lynch. It is possible he was just playing a very deep game on us, but reading the rest of his posts he didn't exactly seem like the deep game type.

I do this sort of thing as scum - I actually think a number of players do. Is your stance that it doesn't happen, or simply that Uct seemed too derp to do it - you seem to be claiming both, clarify?

I have personally never once seen it happen, not to this extent. More the latter though I suppose, I wouldn't be shocked to see more experienced players do so, but most people I know put their buddies in the meh-scum to meh-town range, or bus them all out. It might be worth giving uct a meta check to see if he is smarter than I gave him credit for, I'll do that when I get the chance. For now, I don't see it.

Thor looks better by the minute to me, not sure where sky sees otherwise. Sky, could you give us a read on HD and Prohawk?

[Tajun]

((Uct never was a lynch, not ever. He was nightkilled. Scumslip? I don't think he was even ever a candidate to be lynched. ))

ime scum often immediately characterize awkward phrases as scumslips.

HD isn't even pretending to scumhunt anymore.

This happens when a town player loses interest in a game too.

True, but usually being voted is enough to stimulate a persons interest. I am not sure what is up with him, if he has just given up or what, but he is active and scumhunting on a half dozen other boards and utterly useless here, not just recently. Not to mention he is as scummy as anyone else on this board.

@Rob: What is your opinion of Whiskers' reactions at the end of page 47?

[Tajun]

Ok, skimmed through a couple of Uct games;
Town:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
Meh.
Scum:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
^In this one, he bussed both allies like they were going out of style, after ignoring them early.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
^In this one, he was totally useless, not mentioning his partner once until postgame. Of course that is in about 5 posts total.

Nothing definite obviously, but nothing to indicate that uct is a mastermind either. My read stands.

The whole Prohawk/Rob/Thor argument of the past page gives me a headache, if only because there are two scumteams. Thor seems to be making a big deal out of not a whole lot, don't really like that. On the other hand, even if he is scum he should be scumhunting, so maybe he has a point and I am just being dense. Whole thing just weirds the hell out of me though.

[Tajun]

@Tajun - read on ProHawk, go.

Still town, not a chance I am going there today. See my iso, none of the reasons have changed. As for his recent behaviour, I feel a bit of the malaise here too, I don't see anything scummy there.

@Thor, post 1312: What in god's name are you talking about here? If you accept the premise that a CW to a wolf would not form on a wolf, then that tells us PH is not a wolf, in both cases. If you don't accept this premise, then it tells us nothing, in both cases. So WTF are you talking about?

@post 1318: Wow, where to begin. Here ( http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p4733346 ) is my Sky reasoning, in case you want to pay attention to what is going on. Again, mostly gut, but that is the best metric I have. Secondly, PH was the primary CW to Aldus, not Sky, and I note that Aldus never once tried to go after Sky, so

Sky got enough late minute support Day 1 versus a wolf

is a grotesque misrepresentation of events. As for your "reasons" to not lynch Sky, ie. your gut town read on him (is there anything else?) I happen to feel the opposite. So no, my vote stays, although I am more than willing to discuss HD. Whiskers is out as well.

[Tajun]

2) Prohawk is town guys. Read his responses again, this guy thinks you are all morons for thinking he is scum. You don't get that when you accuse actual scum, you get people defensive. Prohawk believes what he is saying, he's the only definite town read I've got here.

In post 234, Sky wrote:
Do I smell defeat?

In post 235, ProHawk wrote:
No, you read it smart-guy.

C'mon guys, this guy is town to the core. Getting weak town on Sky too, tbh, although I don't like his Prohawk read. Just gut on this one.

Hmm, thought that I wrote more than that. Still, his reactions are dick-town and not dick-scum. Basically, he calls out people for bad behaviour and is frustrated when the town is screwing up. Yeah, still gut, but I'm not lynching a gut town read.

What are *you* talking about? He wasn't the counter wagon, the wolf was the counter wagon - and that makes a lot of difference.

I must be a fucking moron then, because all I can see here is that in either case you get the exact same info, ie. not likely a wolf if you buy that premise (which I don't really).

is a grotesque misrepresentation of events.

How?

The way you phrased it seems like you are saying "we wouldn't have two primary wagons on wolves at the end of day one, because a wolf wouldn't start a wagon on another wolf, therefore sky is not likely a wolf". This is a brutally bad interpretation of what happened, as a) Aldus did not start that wagon, join that wagon, or have anything to do with that wagon other than give a townread on sky, and b) Sky only jumped to Aldus when it was clear that he was getting lynched with or without his help.

It's not a gut read, it's showing a legitimate read growth and suggesting that it stems from legit town interaction as opposed to scum hunting for mislynches.

although I am more than willing to discuss HD. Whiskers is out as well.

Why is Whiskers out?
Also, want to shift to HD instead of Sky then?

Would it be reasonable to assume that your reason for thinking this is town behaviour is because he is calling you likely scum for changing your read on him to town unnaturally, thus indicating that he is more interested in finding scum than in seeming town? Otherwise, I am not sure what you mean here.

Whiskers is out because I don't think he is maf (see many previous posts) and I liked his reactions on page 47 (think he's town). I could to HD, although I am still betting maf and not wolf there. He'd be my compromise lynch, if I can't have sky, but I'm staying here atp.

[Tajun]

I must be a Smurfing moron then, because all I can see here is that in either case you get the exact same info, ie. not likely a wolf if you buy that premise (which I don't really).

Well, yeah, maybe you are a moron, but let's look at this;

You're saying the order doesn't matter and the only question is whether it suggests he is or isn't Werewolf.
But, why does it *ever* possibly call into question that he's a werewolf. The answer is because the lynch was a werewolf and theoretically the other werewolf would have attempted to avoid lynching their bud and pushed for a counter wagon.

But, right there, we see that order matters - because unless the wolf was pushed first there is no need for other wolf to push a counter.

So, if it does matter - than order of when the wagons appear matters.
Make sense?
Go play more newbies...

But if both are wolves, then this argument runs both ways, ie is valid regardless of which one is lynched. So this argument must be equally valid regardless of the one who is lynched, therefore is valid regardless of whether he was the counter or the original.

Please someone back me up here, I feel like I am going nuts.

The way you phrased it seems like you are saying "we wouldn't have two primary wagons on wolves at the end of day one, because a wolf wouldn't start a wagon on another wolf, therefore sky is not likely a wolf". This is a brutally bad interpretation of what happened, as a) Aldus did not start that wagon, join that wagon, or have anything to do with that wagon other than give a townread on sky, and b) Sky only jumped to Aldus when it was clear that he was getting lynched with or without his help.

A) This is not relevant to my point.
B) This is also not relevant to my point.
You've also kind of misrepresented my point, but I am saying that, of the available suspects, Sky is less likely a wolf than others.
I also think he looks town for other reasons besides that which makes him less likely mafia and thus a poor lynch.
Also, as you mock this, I would note I'm using more and better logic than your case so...maybe I should just say gut and scream 'nyah!' at you or something? Get over your bad self and at least try to address the points in a sensible way if you're going to attack them - also, are you seriously arguing Sky=werewolf here? You appear to be trying to do so.

Ok, then what is your point? That it is unlikely that we would put wagons on the two wolves day 1? Because unless you can show a reason that these two are correlated, this is irrelevant, as a matter of simple statistics. I understand your argument on Sky, but I will counter by saying that attacking people with town reads on me is one of the first things I learned to do as scum. Sky doesn't strike me as the kind that would miss a trick like that. And I do think Sky is a decent candidate for wolf, although I was more trying to make the point that I don't see any evidence refuting that than I was that he is.

Still happy with the hammer, Sky's final post was alright but nothing breathtaking, imo.

Also,

But, yeah. I won't oppose this lynch, because... eh. I could see it.

Whiskers is town guys. This guy is just saying whatever is on his mind, not at all in a scum mindset.

[Tajun]

actually scratch that PHtown read. Uct calling him scum yet not placing him in the scum pile of reads And later on no vote while calling him scum, definitely fishy.

The NK of Thor makes it look even worse for you.

what makes you think this?

Majiffy, PH, Rob scum? maybe. Want to hear Tajun's thoughts first.

Think about the motivations behind a Thor kill. Why on earth would a werewolf kill off Thor when Thor could have been a (relatively) easy target as a lynch due to his help on the Whiskers wagon and his still-being-aliveness. Thor is automatically suspicious when he lives for a long time, so why would scum kill him off if they had been willing to leave him as long as they had? He was only getting more suspicious with time. I reached the following possibilities:

1) Killing Thor earlier would have caused suspicion to fall on the werewolf.
2) Thor, for whatever reason, was starting to catch onto the werewolf or would probably be suspicious of them the following day.

So who fits that criteria? Majiffy.

1) Killing Thor early would have brought the heat potentially on Majiffy because they were majorly arguing with each other. Majiffy-scum would never in a million years kill off Thor early in this game due to how the argument was going. This explains why Thor wasn't killed earlier.
2) Majiffy would have been destroyed by Thor in Day 4 due to the quick-hammer. Thor is a good player in this game and he would have been all over it. He also definitely has meta on Majiffy that the rest of us probably don't have, so he'd be extra-dangerous to Majiffy following such a controversial move. Majiffy is likely to want Thor gone even though Thor was becoming suspicious because leaving Thor in the game when he would undoubtedly start targeting Majiffy is way too risky.

Ok, so we have systematically lynched/had NK'ed all of my scum reads except HD. I've got town on 4nx, Majiffy and Hawk, obviously one of which is wrong, I'm guessing Prohawk but I'll have to have a closer look. Fortunately, Rob's posting has gone from bad to terribad in the last day and a half, and his run on Majiffy, who was not on, near or in the same timezone as Thor list of lynchables:

Vote: Whiskers

Also willing to do an HD, Anx, or ProHawk - in that order.

for being the most likely to kill Thor with the reasons he gave above is incomprehensible. HD is still scum, unless I am off by a mile. Happy to vote either of them. From NK analysis, guessing that HD is the wolf, not sure who else would have chosen Thor last night, when he was a plausible mislynch.

4nx, why the town read on HD?

[Tajun]

Any reason we should doubt his claim (ie suspect him as the wolf)? Otherwise, I'm happy to let him live, because:
1) If we lynch the wolf, we lynch him tomorrow.
2) If we lynch town, he dies tonight (wolf has no choice but to kill him) giving us another chance to take the maf.
3) If we lynch the other maf, he either dies or lives tonight, kind of irrelevant, then we still have to get the wolf tomorrow (can lynch him in 3 player lylo).

Actually, come to think of it, that could be his plan, to claim maf as a wolf, hoping that we get into scenario 3 and have to try to lynch the wolf tomorrow (which is, ironically, him). Actually, I think that is the most likely scenario, I don't really see the benefit to doing this as maf, but as a wolf he has bought himself a chance at the win if we let him live. Thoughts?

Pedit: I see what you mean, but the fact that he turned it on so strongly there feels tremendously unnatural to me. Especially immediately after the death of the seer, it really makes me uncomfortable.

Pedit2: Agreed.

[Tajun]

Cause one of the mafiaosos would have countered Rob's claim if he was lying to sure up the Wolf-kill.

Why?

[Tajun]

Nope.

[Tajun]

That would be pretty dumb, they would go from a decent chance of winning in either case to giving the town a 3-1 split with two lynches. I'd just let it slide.

On another note, if Hawk was maf I'm guessing he would have known their wincon, so unless he is playing a deep deep game he is likely not. Could still be a wolf I guess.

Pedit: Got a response hey? Not seeing what you mean; in a four player game with you (if you are a wolf) you stand a better chance than anyone if we think you are maf, because we can't lynch you. You get two chances to kill the maf (one lynch, one kill) ftw.

[Tajun]

Pretty dumb, kinda like claiming Mafia to be auto-lynched in the late-game to make your team get to 1?

Pretty much, yeah.

[Tajun]

HD looks hella town after that tajun post (eventhough he

could be

probly is wrong)
^the amount of effort + looking for next probable wolf after being wrong = town reactions

hmm PH and Majiffy, trigger happy votes?

Tajun. Majiffy. PH. Hypothetical question -- If you were wolf and had to kill someone tonight... who would it be and why?

Or he has turned it up, to try to avoid being lynched. His case is pretty weak, screams of finding another target to me. I'm down for this lynch

VOTE: HD
(as he predicted). As for who I would kill, it depends who we lynch. If we hit town, then I would take out Rob. We hit maf... actually, I'd still take out Rob. Changed my mind, Rob would be a dead man regardless.

@4nx: It actually makes more sense to target someone other than Rob regardless. If we hit a townie, we've eliminated a future mislynch, and the wolf still has to kill Rob. We hit maf, they're finished, and we only need one more ftw. We hit a wolf, we lynch Rob tomorrow. Compare and contrast with lynching Rob, in which case the wolf gets to kill whomever they want, probably one of you, myself and Majiffy. I am pretty sure this gives us our best shot, unless Rob is a ridiculously bizarre wolf.

[Tajun]

I didn't really see the need, since no one was listening anyway, but if you really want:

So, the HD case starts off with, Taj never voted with Aldus, which scum never ever do. He forgets to note that aldus only EVER voted for Prohawk, who I had a stated town read on. Then he claims that I kept calling the Aldus wagon meh, then voted for it late without explanation. Which is essentially true, as the only other serious option was Prohawk. Who, as it turns out, I had a town read on (go figure!). So, the case is essentially, "taj had a townread on hawk and acted in a completely sensible fashion under that assumption, and is too grotesquely incompetent to make his bussing anything less than transparent by giving better reasons for his vote."

Am I missing anything?

[Tajun]

And are you seriously calling my reaction OMGUS? I've wanted you dead since page 5. Last

page

I said you were the scummiest person in town. 4nx, you can't seriously think this guy believes his case.

[Tajun]

Fine, proper defense it is then. Enjoy the wall.

Note that the goal of looking at these interactions is to see if they make sense from a wolf-wolf perspective.

Alright, I think Whiskers has sufficiently overreacted to warrant a vote.

VOTE: Whiskers

A bit nervous about Alduskkel as well, the mod vote feels a bit forced, and not all that useful. Alduskkel, any thoughts on the minor wagon here?

Nothing unreasonable here I suppose. If you assume they're both wolves, this would be a bit of early distancing.

Page 2 has scum slips for Aldus and town slips for Thor.

Aldus voting mod that is ridiculous and are trying to do nothing and dismiss it as "having fun". Staying in RVS?
I don't have Whiskers and Prohawk as being aligned. I don't buy them as bussing each other. But Whisker's wagon though is built out of confirmation bias that everyone has for Thor so it looks like a damn reach.
Tajun is also scum slipping. Two "question-prods"? Yeah, no. Scum #2.

Vote: Aldus

Where are Thor's "townslips" as you call them? (Yeah, more questions. Deal with it.)

*snip*

The above is the scummiest thing I have seen so far. The Alduskkel wagon is meh at best, he isn't really being helpful, but he is also not trying to avoid attention, and he seems fairly forthright so far.

Note that he goes asks what Thor's townslips are and not what Aldus's scumslips are. Doesn't really explain his read on Alduskkel very much with a fairly murky "Well he seems forthright."

It was clear what people's problem was with Aldus. I disagreed, but I'm not going to ask an obvious question. Thor on the other hand, wtf did he get that?

Still don't really see alduskkel, he is more of a meh read than Prohawk's def town, but I don't really see the reason for him to be the second major wagon. We might get lucky there, but we can do a lot better.

I do hope you folks are taking notes, this is the third time he's called the Aldus wagon a meh wagon.

Yup. And by this time, wolf Tajun has realized his partner is never EVER going to make it to lylo and is now a liability to be bussed the fuck out of. You know, if wolf tajun existed that is.

These quotes strike me as off. Alduskkel comes in, acts in a way you deem scummy, then disappears, and he first slips back to nullish for his trouble then back to maybe a bit scummy? You don't seem too sure what you think of him, and, frankly, the scummiest thing I have seen from him is that he disappeared after pressure started to fade on him, leaving us to make cases on other targets and ignore him. You seem to be not troubled by this.

If he flips scum, I'm looking at you next.

I've done this as scum before; bus my buddy while lining up an "If X is scum, you're scum with him." situation. Note that he never follows through with this. Also calling the Aldus wagon meh #4.

Yup, never followed through with it. Why wouldn't I, as a wolf, follow through? This is a far better case for me being maf, all told. Or forgetful.

Thor, could you explain your HD read? I don't see anything particularly town in his recent posting, picking a fight to avoid going to the gallows is pretty standard in my experience. And now he is going for a lurker lynch, essentially (aldus is a pretty easy target if he is trying to deflect). I still think he is flipping scum, unless someone can give me a damn good reason why not.

Calls Aldus an easy lynch despite never stating any sort of townread on him. (Note: This isn't as bad in multiball as it would be in a single scumteam game)

Aldus

was

an easy lynch. My case was that you weren't bothering to make a case, ie were being opportunistic.

Alduskkel I can see as a worthy lynch maybe

, but sky I can't really. Gone back and forth on him a bit, but all told a weak town read there.

@auspicious: Can you explain your suspicion of sky? You keep saying he seems like scum, but I don't see any reasoning there.

VOTE: Alduskkel

His lurking is beyond bad right now. Let's see if votes wake him.

BOOM

So...he's called the wagon meh 4-5 times now...and now he just kinda jumps on calling it a lurkervote,

despite criticizing my own lurkervote in the exact same post.

Or thirty votes before, but sure, why not. Clearly you missed my point, which was that you seemed equally happy to lynch anyone, and were hopping from going wagon to going wagon. I, on the other hand, was trying to get you lynched for about 200 posts immediately before that, and decided that it wasn't going to happen and would have to settle.

As for the Aldus PL, I am fine with it. He is a bit scummy, and we have a fair deal of info from interactions with him over the day. In addition, the mafia have every reason to lurk like that and not participate usefully, there's a pretty good chance he'll flip maf (

although wolf I kinda doubt, unless that is just his style

).

This kinda comes out of nowhere. This is also unexplained. Note that he didn't start calling Aldus scummy until after it became a relatively popular wagon.

True. Of course, he wasn't all that scummy before he decided to lurk through his own lynch squad, but why not, I'll give you that one.

I still think he is a bit scummy, from his earlier posting. I prefer his more recent posting, although I find his recent disappearance odd, to say the least. Not a bad lynch, all told.
Alduskkel, what are your thoughts on Whiskers?

Asking Aldus about reads, possibly setting up a fake associative tell between Aldus/Whiskers? Actually, this whole conversation between them seems like exactly that.

Or I was trying to scumhunt, you know, get reads about one person I thought might be maf to use against another I thought might be. Note I never used this against whiskers, so, once again, this isn't an actual point or anything.

Still think that Hawk is town, although his recent downturn of activity is a bit awkward. Whiskers' buddying argument is a stretch, I'm having a hard time seeing those three as being that obvious, and very rarely can that be seen day 1 in my experience. I think Aldus is our best option here, out of those two (three, if sky is considered).

BTW,

I'm pretty sure that that is L-1 on Hawk

, although someone should check that properly, I have to run.

Last interaction with Aldus, calling him the best lynch, despite never stating any sort of decent reason for joining the wagon.

Other option was my townread Hawk.

If you want the tl;dr of it, there's early distancing, calling Aldus' wagon meh then suddenly joining it for the purposes of "lurker pressure" in the same post where he criticizes me for a lurker vote, setting up for the fake Aldus/Whiskers pairing, and calling Aldus the best lynch despite never really stating a reason to call Aldus scum.

VOTE: Tajun

That's one interpretation. The other is that I still didn't particularly like the lynch, but went with it rather than my townread. This is the one supported by, you know, evidence.

a) In the same post you voted him as a pressure vote for lurking, you criticized MY vote as a pressure vote for lurking.
b) Later on, your interactions with Aldus read as setting up a fake Aldus/Whiskers pairing.
c) Pretty much 0 reasoning for lynching Aldus. Rather than push a lynch through on a scumread, you kinda went "Fine, I'll join this wagon that IMO is on shaky grounds since my scumreads aren't being lynched anyway." Which is a towncred grab for a scum lynch. (Well, avoiding being called a wolf, whatever) The whole switch to Alduskkel in general looks more like following the crowd than anything.

a) I was criticizing you for doing zero scumhunting, of which lurker voting was one example.
b) Dream on.
c) No, that is something a moron would do in that situation. If I was a wolf, I wouldn't have fucked around, I'd have bussed him hard.

Actually, you've only expressed suspicion on me when it was convenient. Also noting that you're trying to lynch the wolf today and you're lynching me when you've been calling me mafia, not wolf, all game. The one time you mention HD-wolf was a vague "NK analysis", which I've already explained is a decent wolf tactic to get someone lynched. It's even better that you haven't explained why I would make all 3 NKs so far at all.

This is a BOLD FACED LIE. I have never, EVER stopped suspecting you. I thought you were a maf from interactions with Uct, but that was secondary to the fact that I thought, and MOST CERTAINLY NEVER STOPPED EVEN FOR A SECOND THINKING, that you were not town. You want to know why you would make the kills? One and two were obviously aimed at seer hunting, regardless of who made them. Three, on the other hand,

Vote: Whiskers

Also willing to do an HD, Anx, or ProHawk - in that order.

Boy, that was tough. Who might want Thor dead?

[Tajun]

tl;dr, HDs case is a joke, predicated on an assumption that I am an incompetent idiot. I called the aldus wagon meh because it was meh, I joined because it was the best option available, and his entire case on me is taking everything I said about aldus and interpreting it in the worst possible way. Ten seconds of thought tells anyone with a brain that my actions make more sense if I DON'T know Aldus' alignment.

[Tajun]

HD/Rob scumteam. Rob hops on when HD tells him to, realizes how bad it looks, goes back to voting me.

Kinda doubt that Rob would claim if his remaining partner was going down in flames right beside him. Stupid though his plan was, I'm hoping that he's not that crazy.

I see you didn't actually address the part where you jumped on the wagon, and the inherent issues with that jump compared with your previous behavior. Or, if you did, it wasn't in the section where you voted Aldu.

Inherent problems such as? I didn't like the wagon because I didn't think Aldus had done anything all that scummy. Then he lurked through two interesting conversations and forgot to scumhunt. I was never fully convinced he would flip scum, but he was useless and a bit scummy, and the only other serious option was my townread. I'm having trouble figuring out why you find that scummy.

[Tajun]

Ok Majiffy, if you're busy giving reasons it must be me, I'll at least volunteer one it isn't.

Tajun, you didn't seem to think I was scum for a really long time, then suddenly you thought I was an okay lynch. What happened?

ProHawk, you're a lynch candidate, if you think you're not then you're lying or severely mistaken.

I doubt that a scumbuddy would bring attention to his partner's poor bussing attempt, unless he is playing a bizarre game. Of course, if we aren't partners it makes perfect sense to ask questions like these.

Eh if we're aiming for mafia it'd be better just to go with Rob.

I still don't think Rob is a good lynch, even in that situation. It gives the wolf the option to choose a target, and eliminates one of our chances to catch him. Since we are down to two, that's a pretty serious blow. If we hit the second maf, that at least makes our endgame easier (although we still only get one more shot at the wolf). I don't see any benefit to lynching Rob, unless we think he might be a wolf.

[Tajun]

Prohawk's case on 4nx isn't bad. In addition, he has really caught my attention with his attempt to get Rob lynched, which really only a wolf should want right now. Still prefer HD though, his play is scummy as fuck and his case is blatantly aiming for another target.

Tajun, who do you think is likely to be second mafia?

You or Hawk, tough to say. I don't think even Rob would claim maf in a crossbus situation, which basically rules out majiffy. Remote possibility of HD, unlikely for the same reason but who knows wtf was going on in Rob's head there anyway, so still possible. Between you two I haven't really settled yet, have to read past interactions with Rob but nothing stuck out about either of you from Uct that I recall.

[Tajun]

Sorry, busy tonight. I'll respond to this insanity tomorrow.

[Tajun]

There is no fucking way HD is wolf. It just makes absolutely ZERO sense.

His posting for most of day 1 and day two was that of a man who had given up hope. He was doing nothing, no scumhunting whatsoever, especially day 2. Then, day three comes around, and with the seer dead miraculously he finds his second wind, new life in the game. And suddenly day 4 comes around, and his biggest remaining enemy wakes up dead. You're clearing him on a too scummy to be scum argument. Seriously, that is the only reason why, "scum wouldn't partial bus a team-mate." That's literally the only possible argument I see against the HD lynch.

In addition, he has really caught my attention with his attempt to get Rob lynched, which really only a wolf should want right now.

this isn't true. Wolf shouldn't care about who gets lynched. No matter who it is, they are in the same situation tomorrow: survive tomorrow's lynch.

I have already explained the benefits to a rob lynch today, which I believe trumps any negative you've brought up. The second mafia stands to gain from rob not being lynched too, a buffer from the wolf nk.

You know why I asked you that question, taj, right? Because you agreed with me that we should hunt for the second mafia, yet you didn't take any initiative to do so.

~~~

wish HD would post more. Getting paranoid doubts about Rob not taking the HD hammer when it was available, right now I would say it was because Rob was more interested in lynching wolf than a mislynch, but the more HD lurks the more that 'what if' gnaws at me.

Wrong.

Wolf is in a very different situation tomorrow. Two reasons for this:
1) Rob lynch allows the wolf to target a nightkill at will. Non-Rob lynch means they have to kill Rob (to prevent a maf vic) or no kill (which would be idiotic, as maf win in a three player situation with a wolf if one maf is alive).
2) Rob lynch eliminates one mislynch, giving us only one shot at the wolf. Non-Rob lynch gives us two shots.
It is way,

way

better for the wolf if we lynch Rob today. Seriously, I don't see how you don't get this. It is far better for the maf if we don't, but you know who else it is better for? The town, genius. We get

two

shots to kill the wolf instead of one, and Rob dies regardless. And I have eliminated two suspects from the likely maf pool, which has been far more effective than any straws you have been grabbing at.

Wouldn't make sense to hammer me, especially if he thinks I'm town; he has to lynch wolf or is pretty much fucked.

I don't know if Rob thought far enough ahead but a wolf lynch is a little bit worse for mafia than a town lynch.

wolf gets lynched, rob gets lynched the next day: 3-1 two lynches to hit mafia.

town gets lynched, rob gets nk: 2-1-1 town need to lynch wolf leaving only the next day

in both scenarios mafia needs to survive two lynches except with the second example a lynch is spent looking for wolf.

a rob lynch is the worst case scenario for mafia because wolf could end up killing them off, which is why tajun being strongly against a rob lynch is making lean mafia on him.

Good god 4nx, I really hope you are the wolf, because you are embarrassing yourself if you aren't. Read my argument for why we shouldn't lynch Rob, and actually try thinking about it. You too majiffy, if you still think Rob lynching would be an effective tact against maf today.

And, Prohawk being the only person in town making any fucking sense, naturally he has been voted for. Nice. This town is fucked.

[Tajun]

Hey, sorry but I am VLA until tuesday night, life has come up.

[Tajun]

2) Rob lynch eliminates one mislynch, giving us only one shot at the wolf. Non-Rob lynch gives us two shots.
It is way,

way

better for the wolf if we lynch Rob today. Seriously, I don't see how you don't get this. It is far better for the maf if we don't, but you know who else it is better for? The town, genius. We get

two

shots to kill the wolf instead of one, and Rob dies regardless. And I have eliminated two suspects from the likely maf pool, which has been far more effective than any straws you have been grabbing at.

I already understand that side of the argument.

With a rob nk you are only eliminating a single suspect since we already know rob is scum, which is the same as a rob lynch just in reverse.

You are arguing that two shots at lynching the wolf is the best move. I am arguing that the two shots is negligible when there is significant uncertainty in the majority about who is wolf. I like the idea of getting one more night of night-kill-analysis to figure things out with the added benefit of the mafia potentially being wiped out, which isn't possible with a non-rob lynch. (tbh neither strategy is game breaking)

~~~

Tajun, how do you go from saying 'hd wolf, ph/anx most likely mafia' to 'hd wolf, ph town, anx could be wolf'? I am just not following that thought process very well.

Two shots is negligible in comparison to one? WTF is this? That's like double, unless my math is wrong. And you are dead wrong about the mafia being wiped out being impossible without a Rob lynch, if we hit maf number two there is still a good chance Rob will die. The only way I could see you making THAT particular mistake is if you are confident that the second maf isn't being lynched today, which would only be possible if you knew who it was (hint for all: Only one way that would happen). But no, a Rob lynch is literally the worst possible option for today. The fact that you are calling me scummy for explaining this one using logic is the sketchiest thing I have seen from you all game.

PH I'm not positive is town, but if he isn't we're uberfucked anyway, as he is the only person left in town with a brain working properly. You I think are a far better candidate for maf all told, but if HD isn't a wolf you'd be my best second guess. Don't think that's likely though.

It amuses me that HD missed the "hope" portion of my post, which was clearly the point, and implied that I was scummy because of it. The rest of his accusations are based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how scum play the game. Less amusing.

Tajun was very confident about HD being mafia before today:

HD: Pretty well certain that he is maf. See post 975, and note that since being called out as such he has done nothing but prod-dodge. Avoiding outing his partner? Oh yeah.

Yet today he turns around and says HD is unlikely to be mafia, all for the convenience of a wolf push.

True, but it becomes far less likely considering Rob's play, for reasons I have explained. If I wanted a clear wolf push, I would have sheeped/pre-empted Prohawk's case on you, but I would rather actually lynch the wolf than target at random and hope for the best.

[Tajun]

And, for the tl;dr crowd out there:

HD: Wolf
4nx: Maf
Hawk: Smarttown
Majiffy: Lazy/Not really paying attention town

Probably.

[Tajun]

That all you have to say Majiffy?

yep i am good with tajun lynch

And you are dead wrong about the mafia being wiped out being impossible without a Rob lynch, if we hit maf number two there is still a good chance Rob will die.

...wolf has no motivation to kill rob at that point since he is dead weight.

Wrong, Rob should still die. He is dead weight, but everyone believes he is maf, so he won't get lynched tomorrow if he is around. He is the only sensible choice for a kill, as that forces the town to choose from 4 tomorrow instead of three.

The only way I could see you making THAT particular mistake is if you are confident that the second maf isn't being lynched today, which would only be possible if you knew who it was (hint for all: Only one way that would happen).

^stretching a game theory discussion into a scumtell instead of looking at my interactions with Uct and Rob.

Actually, this one you have a point, it was pretty weak. I'll go through you and uct/rob when I get the chance (still busy).

The fact that you are calling me scummy for explaining this one using logic is the sketchiest thing I have seen from you all game.

actually I am calling you scummy for a variety of other things. That was merely a speculation that mafia stand the most to gain from a non-rob lynch, and your reaction to my pushing that is something to consider

Sure, but if I can't stretch game theory discussion into a scumtell then neither can you.

Tajun, how do you go from saying 'hd wolf, ph/anx most likely mafia' to 'hd wolf, ph town, anx could be wolf'? I am just not following that thought process very well.

this was never answered (though you did switch back to your previous notion in your latest post).

No.1 wolf cand: HD
No.2 : You

No.1 maf cand: you
No.2: PH (ints with rob don't make sense on others)

That clear things up?

[Tajun]

You're right Anx, went through all of your scum-games and I can't really find any wishy-washy play with any of your scum-buddies.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Majiffy

Thats L-1 Majiffy.

^ Here's your obvwolf. Like I've

been

voting.

One of us is doing this very wrong, and I don't think it is me. Can you

please

try explaining your points?

Scared to lose your comrade Rob?

Because at the time you decided to vote, not a whole lot of people were considering Majiffy as a wolf-candidate, you sat as the lone voter on Majiffy until people started voting for him. It was the perfect bus for when we lynched the wolf without your help, and wouldn't consider Majiffy as your partner because what a derp strategy right?

This still makes no sense, none whatsoever. If Majiffy was the second maf, there is no reason,

absolutely none

, that Rob would claim maf in that situation. A cross-bus does not end with one partner claiming scum. Ever. No. This is beyond crazy. Rob's defense statement was smoke and mirrors, Majiffy is

not

the maf.

I don't like Majiffy's recent posting any more than you do, but unless you can give me a damn good reason he is the wolf I am not voting him.

I could compromise on a 4nx lynch if you want, but I would still rather do HD.

[Tajun]

I'm guessing he is town, yeah. The hammer doesn't ring as scummy to me to be honest, Whiskers was going down regardless and I doubt anything interesting would have happened had he waited. Could have let us have a day or two, but I get the feeling that was more impatience than scummy intent. His attacks on PH are bad, and the primary reason I consider it possible he is a wolf. Not buying maf though, that is just too bizarre, even in this screwed up game.

I'm not going to force a no lynch, lynching town would probably be better than that in this setup at this point, at least we would eliminate a future mislynch. Lynching Rob certainly would be, although I maintain aiming for the wolf (or, if necessary, maf2) would be better. I want to see what others have to say though, we still have 2 days so the panic need not be in full force yet. Who would you be willing to lynch?

[Tajun]

Either Rob is playing a deep-game, in that he wants Majiffy to look like his partner, or Majiffy is actually his partner. It looks more like the latter however. If you were in Rob's position, would you just give up on the person you had pushed as a wolf this whole time? Would you just give up a mis-lynch? The unvote when Majiffy was at L-1 just does not make any sense to frame Majiffy as mafia when a town-Majiffy-lynch, or wolf-Majiffy-lynch would have furthered his team's win-con.

That wouldn't be a deep game. That would be about the shallowest level possible. "Hey, everyone knows I am maf? Why don't I defend someone to see if I can get my partner a free lynch later?"
Or even "Hey, why don't I unvote to see if someone will put him to L-1 so I can hammer?"

No, this doesn't count as reasonable.

VOTE: 4nxi3ty

If we're compromising, this is the one I'd go for. PH and Majiffy both still read town here. Majiffy's play the last few pages has been better, and PH seems to be playing sensibly.

[Tajun]

VOTE: Tajun
Unlikely both maf were both voting wolf, HD can't be wolf, ergo Tajun is wolf, 4nx is last scum.

Airtight logic you got there. Almost as strong as your case on PH, which in no way didn't exist in any form.

Why have you concluded that HD isn't a maf?
Do you have a non-stupid reason for thinking HD isn't a wolf?
Does it not bother you that Rob was clearly intentionally misleading town?
Why should we believe that you that you aren't a wolf?

A few of the questions that pop into my head when you brilliantly vote me out of the gate in MYLO.

[Tajun]

1) If HD is maf, 4nx wolf is consistent with your earlier post.
2) Wolf wouldn't be this wolfy? Yeah, no.
3) So you'll ignore his words. Well played.
4) Another convincing argument from Majiffy.

What else you got?

PEdit: I would go with "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING?????" but I thought making you feel as idiotic as you seem to be playing might be more effective.

[Tajun]

And I share the scum read on 4nx, as you would know if you had been paying attention for the last day or so.

[Tajun]

Playing with a 4nx wolf, HD maf theory. Primary issue is that it is still tough to see Rob claiming with his partner as close to being lynched as he was. Other than that, I quite like it. Only person I am ruling out for maf is Majiffy, regardless of what PH had to say.

[Tajun]

Only person I am ruling out for maf is Majiffy, regardless of what PH had to say.

I'm assuming this is because of Rob's push on him early Day 4?

Mostly. Also the fact that Rob decided to defend Majiffy yesterday, after it was made clear what everyone thought of his words.

Liking my theory more the more I think about it. 4nx's ints with Aldus are pretty toxic, and HD works better as maf than wolf in every way short of Rob's claim. Got to go with my gut on Majiffy town here.

VOTE: 4nxi3ty

[Tajun]

(would appreciate some feedback from someone on my tajmafia theories)

I heartily disagree with them.

Where you at HD? Trying to decide whether a hammer now would reveal you as maf?

[Tajun]

Not quite my intention, although I certainly wouldn't object. Mostly wondering why his other games deserve play and this one does not. Only reason I can see is that he is uncertain about whether finishing you off would doom him or not.

[Tajun]

Dang. Nice shot. Did you have me figured, or was it a lucky guess?

FTR, I really did like 4nx as the wolf, and the townreads on Whiskers and PH were genuine. Was never sure about Majiffy.

I'm cool with sharing the QT, Rob and Uct?

I'll analyse more when I get the chance.

[Tajun]

Dang. Nice shot. Did you have me figured, or was it a lucky guess?

I spent about 4 hours reading uct and Rob's ISOs over and over looking for associative tells.

I saw a lot of anti-associative tells with Rob-HD.

Still felt like a potshot though.

Good to know. I was wondering if 4nx's excellent analysis on me had finished us off, or if it was something else. He is definitely my choice for town MVP, lynched or not.

Here is the maf QT:
http://www.quicktopic.com/49/H/ieVrGBe9Aru

Nothing too exciting. Apparently I did consider Majiffy a possible wolf day 1 (forgot about that ). A couple points for players:

Whiskers: You were obvtown, for anyone who knows your meta. Like really,

really

obvtown. Never ever vote yourself as town, but other than that you got a pretty bad time this game, most of it undeserved IMO. Don't argue every bloody point though, pick your battles better.

Sky: Sorry if I came off as too big of a dick.

Majiffy: You played well, and deserved it. Wouldn't have hurt my feelings if you had missed though. Bold move day 1 (2?) directing the seer.

Thor, HD was a counter to Ald, but it wasn't initiated by Ald, so how does that remove the likelihood of him being a wolf?

In other news, Whiskers still looks worse than Sky, and everyone who was screaming at me for being a jerk for opposing Whiskers and pushing Sky is now pushing Sky and opposing Whiskers.
Is this some sort of new game meta where it's just 'call Thor scummy no matter what he does and then do the opposite' playstyle?

Is this some sort of new game meta where it's just 'call Thor scummy no matter what he does and then do the opposite' playstyle?

Yeah I've actually got everyone but you in a QT and we're giggling like schoolgirl over this. Took you long enough to catch on.

It would explain a lot.

This is officially my favourite set of quotes I have ever read on this site.

That's about all I've got. Is there a dead players QT?

[Tajun]

Oh, also thanks to Josh for the modding, everything went smoothly.

[Tajun]

Haha probably not, but that's a real shame. I had a lot of fun reading your posting this game.