Mini 1653: A Game of Pokes - game over

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: Hodor Hodor

I don't like any of the posts that he has made thus far. He's super scummy.

[Wickedestjr]

What's everyone's experience levels?

~40 games played, ~10 games read

Glad you guys agree with me.

Why did you vote me not Kelbris?

Why didn't

you

vote Kelbris?

[Wickedestjr]

Did you see this:

Hello everyone, I am looking forward to playing with you all.

Just an FYI, if it seems like I am not responding quickly to asked questions, keep in mind that I live in the AEST time zone, so while you may be awake, I may be asleep or out doing other things.

?

[Wickedestjr]

It is also the reason why even though the two kind of said the same thing in their own way about being inactive, I differentiate the two and see something wrong with one and not the other

I assume that Slandaar is the one you ‘see something wrong with’. But you also said;

And yet you're voting for him.

And yet

it is a random vote

that can be changed at any time.

So you randomly voted for a player that you also see something wrong with? That's... lucky.

And since we're in the RVS of the game, what's everyone's story of how they picked their user name. I'm a fan of the MN Vikings and that's about all there is to it .

There’s not really any story behind mine. I’ve been using “Wickedestjr” for over a decade. It was the first numberless name I could come up with that was unique enough to never get taken on other sites.

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote. Vote: kelbris

He seems a little bit too cautious - even for an inexperienced player.

[Wickedestjr]

I would also like to claim VT

That

must

be a record… You are not supposed to claim this early. These are the reasons why you would want to claim as Vanilla Townie;
-You are one vote away from a lynch.
-You are the most popular lynch option with just two days left before deadline.
-We have reached a point in the game where the town has agreed to mass claim.
-Your claim provides information about somebody else’s claim.

Your claim was not made for any of the above reasons - it was a mistake. I will now refute your reasons for claiming;
-Claiming just because people suspect you is bad. You were not at risk of getting lynched. The best way of removing suspicion is by defending yourself and scum hunting. You claimed VT, but that doesn’t make it more likely that you are town. You could very easily be scum lying.
-You said that your claim removes targets for the vigilante, but that is not true. The hypothetical vigilante has no reason to believe that you are VT rather than scum. Your claim actually makes it more likely that a vig kills you because they know you are not a town power role.
-You said that your claim removes targets for the doctor. But this is also not a good reason - if you were suspected enough that you felt the need to claim, then the hypothetical doc wasn’t going to protect you anyway. Doctors generally protect players that are not suspected by others.
-You said that your claim removes targets for the cop, but this is also not true. Claiming VT does not confirm you as town because you could very easily be mafia lying. You are just as good an investigation choice as you were before.

Your claim does not make it easier for any town power roles. But if you are town, then it does make it easier for scum. Scum want to kill power roles and, if you’re town, they know not to shoot you.

[Wickedestjr]

FA_Q2

, in your experience, have you ever seen anyone claim prematurely like this?

kelbris

, why did you vote for Slandaar?

[Wickedestjr]

I like the Hodor Hodor vote (but not as much as my kelbris vote).

Slandaar could be scum, but not for the reason that Cheetory provided. I think that was obviously an imitation of kelbris. Not sure how its being read differently.

I would appreciate if nobody else explained their vote for Slandaar before kelbris does.

[Wickedestjr]

kelbris

, why do you think Slandaar’s post was a reaction test? When did you come to this realization?

vikingfan

, you asked Flames to talk about other players besides Hodor. I couldn’t help but notice that you’ve only talked about kelbris. Do

you

have thoughts on any other players?

havingfitz

, what was wrong with randomidget’s defense?

Cheetory

, you said havingfitz is going after the “two easiest targets”. How is randomidget an easy target?

burn

, please respond to my post 59.

[Wickedestjr]

Does randomidget strike you as a hard to lynch player?

No, but he doesn't seem like a particularly easy target either. Your comment just surprised me because randomidget has been ignored by everyone other than havingfitz and randomidget is not inexperienced.

[Wickedestjr]

Catching up today. Just read page 5.

not sure why but wicked's post to kelbris stands out to me as odd, seems like over explaining to me

Of the last four games I’ve played, including this one, there has been a premature claim in three of them. That’s 75% of my last four games. I want it to be 0%, this isn’t RtR. I’ll do all that I can to enlighten players that think premature claims are necessary.

I came to the conclusion that Slandaar's post was trying to gauge reactions was after he revealed that he was imitating me

Slandaar revealed that he was imitating you in post 21, yet you didn’t vote him until post 65. By this point, Riblet had joined the bandwagon and it had become clear that burn and Cheetory were fairly committed. I sense opportunism here.

Flames of Disaster *votes Hodor, is challenged to justify his vote, and immediately asks for replacement. I need to look at his profile and see if this is typical behavior or if this is possible scum having trouble standing up to scrutiny.

I'm going to

vote Flames

at this point because I really didn't like the way that whole sequence went there.

So you think that Flames cast a vote that he couldn’t justify and then decided his best game play was to leave the game entirely? That was foolish of him to forget that he’d have to

explain

the vote. And leaving the game is an unusual strategy- interested to see if it works out for him. More seriously, this is an awful vote.

[Wickedestjr]

Just read page 6.

I don't really wish to post life story but I am not well currently so will post properly when I can.

VOTE: Riblet

Naked vote is, well... naked.

How about explaining why riblet is scum?

There were a few naked votes cast prior to this one. Why is it that you only comment on the one cast by Slandaar, the top lynch candidate?

Wickedestjr - Like the avy. Don't like post 79. Let's not get bogged down in game theory. The time for instruction is over - we are swimming in the deep end and it's sink or swim.

This would be a valid point if I had prematurely lectured on something irrelevant, like… say… mafia acronyms. But I didn’t lecture on mafia acronyms. I gave

relevant

claim advice in response to a player,

after

they had made a mistake that my advice could have prevented.

“Deep end swimming”, while ideal, is hindered by page 3 role claims. If kelbris isn’t taught why page 3 claims are bad, then what’s stopping him from doing it again? If somebody else had made the theory post, I’d’ve been happy not to, I’ve already done it several times. It frustrates me that my theory post is receiving criticism- I don't think it's telling, I’m just sick of early role claims.

Riblet

, correct me if I’m wrong, but your vote for Slandaar originally seemed based on his lack of contributions. Why is this a problem for Slandaar rather than the other player(s) that have/had not contributed?

[Wickedestjr]

Read page 7.

Haven't got much to say at the moment, however after reading through Slandaar's latest posts, I am adamant that he is one of the scum. Also, just a quick comment, quite surprised there were not more posts made while I was asleep, in my other games there were quite a few made which is why I made the timezone comment in the first place-seemed like everyone was online when I was not.

This feels like a lazy scum post.

Then we have Riblet contradicting himself about what is a content post, I posted a vote and this is avoiding posting content, he posts a vote and it's a content post. These two stances can't coexist.

You roll your eyes as if Slandaar's point here is ridiculous. But I see no issue with it. Can you please explain how he is wrong?

[Wickedestjr]

Caught up.

Vikingfan

, why would Flames, as scum, cast a vote that he couldn’t justify?

Riblet

, why would Slandaar, an experienced player, steal the inexperienced player’s excuse in order to lurk? That is 100% ridiculous - it was obvious he was imitating before he even said that he was imitating. I thought we were done with this discussion when Cheetory finally conceded. BTW, the ‘illness’ is probably true even if he's mafia.

Kelbris is way to defensive for my liking. However I dont think he is scum I just think he is dumb and again in my experience dumb =/= scum.

Careful here. Inexperience is not a town tell, it is a player trait that exists before role pms are sent out.

[Wickedestjr]

There are four players that I have decently-strong reads on right now. Ignoring everyone else for the time being.

havingfitz - Town - Seems to genuinely care about scum hunting. Play also feels different from last time we played together where he was scum.
Aristophanes - Town - Not for his play but for his predecessor's play. He seems okay so far, but Cheetory's last few posts really felt townish.
kelbris - Scum - I am always hesitant to scum read inexperienced players, but I still suspect him. He seems too cautious and his Slandaar vote is weird.
Riblet - Town - His argument for Slandaarscum is horrible (even if Slandaar is scum), but it feels like he legitimately believes in it.

[Wickedestjr]

@wickedestjr did you read my reads section of my last post? I explained in a bit of detail as to why I voted for Slandaar and why I suspect he is scum.

Yes, I read the post.

...

So many replacements... geesh. I just hope that Riblet's replacement can see that Slandaar was imitating kelbris- I'm adding Slandaar to the 'decently strong town read' group.

[Wickedestjr]

Kelbris

, please respond to post 212. Why did you ignore it?

[Wickedestjr]

Prod dodge... Sorry guys. I promised myself that I'd spend some time here today, but I was just way too busy. Will try to post tomorrow.

[Wickedestjr]

Just read page 10.

I think I responded to you before Wicked, but this sentence from before pretty much sums it up for me. Not sure why you're asking me the same question over again but again, I thought it suspicious he did a naked vote, then when challenged, he left. It was fishy to me so I figured it was worth a vote to state as much but obviously I wanted to give his replacement a fair chance. And others didn't like Flames' play either, as you will see by the thread.

This post in no way shape or form answers my question. That’s why I keep asking it.

I understand/understood why you voted Flames. You clearly stated (multiple times) that you thought it was scummy how he voted Hodor and then left when the vote was challenged. I’ve understood that - that is not what I am asking you about.

I’m not asking

for

the reasoning, I’m trying to ask you

about

the reasoning that you have already given. I asked a simple question that you have avoided answering: why would Flames cast a vote that he couldn’t justify?

I’m starting to get the impression that you can’t answer this question, even though it’s a question you should have asked yourself before voting Flames (if you were town trying to vote for scum).

After looking back, my best scumread is random. Everyone else is null for me at this point.

Random, why do you believe kelbris is town? you say he is but don't give any backup for it. You make a lot of statements but don't back them up. People don't like backing up their statements because it provides something that can be referred to later.

VOTE: vote random

I dislike this post. Here vikingfan asks a question that havingfitz has already asked and ignores the post where randomidget answered. It’s also weird how he ignored random’s kelbris comment originally and is

just now

interested nine pages later.

Unvote. Vote: vikingfan

[Wickedestjr]

Caught up.

wait.
but i was playing with riblet?
wtf???
like i was in the game the same time with riblet.

WTF

Yup. Just look at post 258 a few posts up. Then vote for massive for being a massive dumb dumb. lol

I think you should read and think before insulting another player’s intelligence.
-As massive pointed out, he didn’t even scum read Riblet in the post that he voted Oka. Did you read the part where he said “Riblet’s case is hands-down awful, but I can’t see scum sticking out their neck like this” ?
-You acknowledged that Riblet and Oka were in the game together and still didn’t realize that your vote made no sense. How could massive confuse Riblet with Riblet’s replacement (that wasn’t actually his replacement) BEFORE Riblet’s replacement even came into existence? Sounds like something out of a sci-fi film.
-Essentially, you vote massive for what you

believe

to be a dumb mistake or misreading. Hmm… should we all vote you now for your

actual

mistake?

I'll be very curious to see how Saul recovers, since 216 should make it clear that I'm not interested in lynching either Riblet (now Formerfish) or Slandaar, and that's also the same post I vote Oka in.

So you are claiming that post 216 did

not

contain your reason for voting Oka? If not, what

is

your reasoning?

1. Why can’t you read post 216 and see, for yourself, that there is no reason for voting Oka?
2. Why can’t you read the post 276, the post you are responding to here, and see massive’s reasoning?

Currently trying to figure out if Saul is a.) scum or b.) town that thinks he can scum hunt without reading posts…

I think we need a flip to get some direction in this game though. We are all over the place.

Someone tell me who would give us the most direction and is most likely to be scum. I will sheep a vote on them because this D1 is far too scattered.

It would be unusual if we were all on the same page. Not sure what your issue here is. Please do your own scumhunting.

[Wickedestjr]

It's not like I answered his questions for him.

I'm just frustrated because your vote was awful and you're continuing by asking questions that are already answered! e.g. You asked him why he voted Oka in the post immediately after he explained the vote... Why was that necessary? C'mon...

[Wickedestjr]

Well, after finally finding out what tunneling is, I have decided to UNVOTE: as I was blinded by my own ideas which I got from the Slandaar vs Riblet arguement. It was foolish, I see that now.

Can you explain what was wrong about your vote? What made you realize this/change your mind? This is a strangely radical change in stance.

whilst I don't like Vikingfan's post asking RM about his message about me "doing this as town" nine pages later, it is possible that Vikingfan did not read that post until now so I am not voting for him either.

Why would hypothetical townVikingfan not read that post? It was mentioned several times.

The cop-directing conversation seems unhelpful. It’s a weak reason to suspect Oka, but I don’t find massive suspicious for using it…

Starting to think Saul is just stubborn town…

Mod: Can you replace burn?

[Wickedestjr]

Ah okay, I was just curious. Sucks that people keep replacing out. Most certainly not your fault! You're doing great!

[Wickedestjr]

Having fitz - scum
Fa02 - nul-scum

Can you explain these?

[Wickedestjr]

Just read page 14. This has been a very busy/distracting weekend (I know... I suck...), I'll catch up on the rest tomorrow. Given that the deadline is closing in, I'll try to make this game more of a priority this week.

The Monkey might be scum.

MonkeyMan, you acknowledged most of Oka's comments against you, but seemed to ignore the following quote. Can you please respond to this:

You criticize me for low content, as scum.
But you say FA is null for low content.

?

I don't care. It's lazy either way.

You should care. Context is everything. In context, that question could not be characterized as "lazy."

Even if I were just going to throw my hands up in the air and say "Wow! You got me! That was a lazy question!" Does the rest of my body of work strike you as lazy? Again. More context.

I'd say outside of that post your content is average. But that is a telling post for me. You seem to think that people shouldn't take into account individual posts and should only look at the larger picture. Are you afraid of being discovered for your scummy intentions?

If this isn't a loaded question, then I don't know what purpose it serves. This whole post feels out of place.

[Wickedestjr]

Read page 15.

Wicked...what's your opinion towards Saul Goode?

I think Saul's town. His unhelpful questioning of massive (even after I explained why his vote was bad) was frustrating for me, but seems indicative of a stubborn townie.

Havingfitz, why do you have such a strong town read on FA_Q2?

if lynching me causes monkey to be lynched. then kelbris.

im down

This feels genuine...

@Oka: Sorry to burst your bubble, but lynching you will have nothing to do with weather or not I am lynched. You are scummy by yourself.

This feels a little bit like scum that wants to survive after pushing a known mislynch...

[Wickedestjr]

Hmm... scum team could be something like Viking/Monkey with massive or kelbris... just an idea.

[Wickedestjr]

Read page 16.

vikingfan – town

Explain this please.

[Wickedestjr]

Read page 17.

That's because FA is a replacement, and I was mixed on the two different players.

I don't understand this. By the way, FA is not a replacement...

I'd say outside of that post your content is average. But that is a telling post for me. You seem to think that people shouldn't take into account individual posts and should only look at the larger picture. Are you afraid of being discovered for your scummy intentions?

If this isn't a loaded question, then I don't know what purpose it serves. This whole post feels out of place.

It's not a loaded question, I was trying to gauge the players state of mind. I wanted to know why he constantly says that people need to look at the larger picture.

It is a loaded question, because it makes the unverified assumption that Saul is scum. If Saul were to respond to that question and no side comments, he would look bad regardless of his response. e.g. Yes, I am afraid of being discovered for my scummy intentions. OR No, I'm not worried about being discovered for my scummy intentions.

Your other comments allow Saul to respond, but the question itself is far from legitimate.

Kelbris

, what is your read on vikingfan? What did you think of his vote for Flames?

[Wickedestjr]

Slandaar, I'm very sorry for my recent activity - life has just been very busy. Fortunately, I've only got a page left to catch up on...

[Wickedestjr]

All caught up... Okay we have three and a half days left- I think it's time that we start narrowing our focus. Pretty sure this is the current vote count;

massive(1): Saul Goode
vikingfan(2): Wickedestjr, randomidget
OkaPoka(3): massive, Monkeyman576, Kelbris
Monkeyman576(1): OkaPoka
kelbris(1): Formerfish
randomidget(3): havingfitz, FA_Q2, vikingfan
Formerfish (1): Slandaar
Not voting: Aristophanes
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

My favorite lynch options are vikingfan, kelbris, Oka, and Monkey (in that order).

vikingfan- The vote for Flames is still bad. He even admitted that he didn't know Flames' motivation, as scum, to act the way that he did. Also, I have a hard time believing he missed the 'randomidget thinks kelbris is town' discussion - his vote for random seems opportunistic.

kelbris- A close second. He is still scummy for his weird Slandaar vote and explanations before/after. This lynch also has two key benefits: a.) He has claimed VT already. Lynching kelbris removes the opportunity for other roles to be outed. There's a good chance he's scum, but, even if he isn't, the loss is small because he's not a power role. b.) His lynch could be very informative. He has made a lot of posts and it feels like he has been one of the major focuses of this game. One of the primary goals of day 1 is to get information and I think his lynch gets it, regardless of the flip.

Oka- I currently town read Oka, but that town read is very weak. The lynch-chain post feels like a town tell, but I realize that that could be the intention behind it. I'm certain of the fact that Oka's lynch would be very informative. In particular, I think Oka's flip could help us read massive and Monkey - I see possibilities of bussing there, if Oka flips scum.

Monkey- His play so far has felt off for reasons I've explained.


Aristophanes should cast a vote- think for yourself please. Saul, Slandaar, and Oka should probably vote elsewhere.

[Wickedestjr]

Sorry my mistake, must have confused him with someone else.

Ugh… seriously?

I’m not buying this.

For those that haven’t been following this exchange, please don’t skim, I’m going to recap.

Monkey replaces in with this post;

Spoiler: ooh ooh aah aah

Initial reads. Intentiaonally general, since it is still early in day 1. Will try and be more specific in the future.



Massive: Town. Willing to scumhunt and stand up to criticism.

Havingfitz: Town. Some good activity and content.

Wickedestjr: Town. Is asking good questions and interacting with different people.

Aristo: I like Aristo more than his predecessor(Cheetory). But for now I'll say null.

Vikingfan: Scum. Not a lot of content, voting for low hanging fruit(random).

FA_Q2: Null. Would like more content, but can't really say he's scum.

OkaPoka: Scum. His predecessor was low content, and he is low content. Not a coincidence.

kelbris: Town. Like his content and analysis.

Slandaar: Town. More colaborative and less antagonistic than I've seen him before.

Saul Goode: Scum. Don't like that he's not willing to read through 13 pages to figure out a case.

randommidget: Town. Not the strongest player but seems to be responding well to criticism.

Formerfish: Town. Like his content, don't like that he is responding to me similarly to another game when he was scum, but will keep an open mind on him.

Vote: OkaPoka

Look at the Oka and FA reads. Monkey scum read Oka for low content but null read FA_Q2 for the same trait: low content. When Oka points this out, Monkey ignores him.

Then I bring it up again and Monkey responds with, “That's because FA is a replacement, and I was mixed on the two different players.” This is an awful explanation though, because FA being a replacement does not change the fact that Monkey null read him for low content when he thinks this is a scum tell for Oka. It doesn’t matter if he confused FA with another player - he

still

null read FA for low content, something that he voted Oka for. Also, FA is still not a replacement.

I think Monkey slipped up. Either that or he’s town whose thought process I simply can’t comprehend.

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote.

- This is obviously not happening, not sure it's my favorite option anymore anyway.

The three options seem to be random, kelbris, Oka.

random- My least favorite option of the three. I just don't think any of the points brought up against him are very telling, I think he'd be at least trying to appear pro-town if he was scum. He has so little content that I also think his already-risky lynch reveals little in comparison to the other two options - of the three, his lynch would disappoint me most if wrong.

kelbris- The scummiest of the three for me. The sacrificial-acceptance post is pretty null, don't fall for it. Oka started playing that card first. Even if he's town, this is still a great strategic choice for the reasons previously stated.

Oka- Slight town lean on this slot. Not familiar with his play, but I tend to believe in

his

recent game-over/okay-with-own-lynch mentality. Admittedly, I think that's the only reason I had for town reading him, but it's a decently-strong feeling. It's not an awful lynch, if wrong, but I think it's wrong enough of the time that I'd prefer the kelbris lynch over it.


The fourth (and more difficult to organize) option is Monkey. I think that the point I made in my last post is very strong. Ignoring a good question and coming up with some garbage/irrelevant excuse, when asked again, seems like a clear scum response. I know it's only one point against a player that just recently replaced in, but I'm not feeling super excited about the other options. I'm going to

Vote: MonkeyMan

and, if there is still negligible interest by 1:30 pm GMT-5, then I will switch to the kelbris wagon.

P-edit: There's one. Good start!

[Wickedestjr]

Look at the Oka and FA reads. Monkey scum read Oka for low content but null read FA_Q2 for the same trait: low content. When Oka points this out, Monkey ignores him.

Originally his read is basically saying that two players being low content is suspicious/too much of a coincidence. There is a difference in the reads at that point but, yes, there does seem to have been some mistake in his read when he tries to explain it.

I don't think this makes a huge difference. He

still

null reads one slot for a point that he uses to vote another player. Two players exhibiting a null tell should not indicate scum. Null + Null =/= Scum

Also, more importantly, if this was the key distinguishing factor -

why didn't Monkey just say this

? Despite given several opportunities, he didn't ever say that when I questioned him- so it must not have been part of his thought process and we can ignore this possibility.

OK, I have no idea why Wickedest and FA are starting a counter-COUNTER-wagon with 18 hours left. And I have no idea why Kelbris is still defending Riblet/Fish with that horrible "I'm going to ignore what the slot originally did" logic.

I'm trying to start a counter-counter wagon with 18 hours left, because I was too busy the day before and now I'm dissatisfied with the bandwagon options. I'm not going to refrain from voting my top suspect just because of the time- he's already got three votes, this is now just as much a candidate as Oka or random or kelbris.

If you have an issue with this bandwagon, please criticize the reasoning and not the way in which it formed (which I see nothing wrong with).

[Wickedestjr]

The current vote count;

OkaPoka(5): massive, Monkeyman576, Kelbris, Aristophanes, randomidget
MonkeyMan576(3): FA_Q2, Wickedestjr, OkaPoka
randomidget(2): havingfitz, vikingfan
Formerfish(1): Slandaar
kelbris(1): Formerfish
massive(1): Saul Goode


massive and Formerfish are probably not getting lynched today...

[Wickedestjr]

Monkey seems town from the experience I have with him. His style is frustrating and I don't particularly like it, but it doesn't make him scum. I don't think that he slipped anymore than Massive did, which wasn't a slip either.

Have you ever played with Monkeyscum? I've been scum buddies with him before and iirc, players got frustrated with him. I don't think meta can explain the big mistake that he has made here.

I completely agree with Saul and havingfitz in that the Oka wagoners look scummier than the Monkey wagoners...

I feel good about this lynch.

[Wickedestjr]

It's all up to havingfitz. Oka and Monkey should probably claim.

[Wickedestjr]

That's a smokescreen. At T-minus

18 hours

, as a townie, you should be focusing on the available options and ensuring there IS a lynch. Just because you got lucky and had two other people jump aboard (

FA who voted at the same time as you and who couldn't have read your case

, Oka who is voting only out of self-preservation) doesn't change the fact that you could have just as easily hung that vote out there uselessly and had no one join your cause, thereby possibly avoiding lynching ... someone.

Firstly, as a townie, I'm not going to sit back and relax when I don't think the right player is getting lynched. Sorry, not happening. Kelbris lynch would have been satisfactory, but Monkey was much scummier.

Secondly, I promised that I would switch my vote if there wasn't any Monkey support by a particular time. I would never let the game go to no-lynch, especially on day 1. I understand that this game is in desperate need of information, I would never cast a vote that I feel lacks potential.

Thirdly, I think it's very rare for a game to go no-lynch on day 1 by accident. I believe we had

26 hours, not 18

at the time I casted my vote for Monkey. It's not difficult to create a bandwagon in that amount of time.

Fourthly, small other correction: FA voted Monkey 15 minutes after I posted my case. Not before or at the same time. I don't think it's a coincidence that FA voted Monkey around the time I made my case.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: It's also not like my point against Monkey is brand new. I've been communicating with him about this pretty much since he replaced in.

[Wickedestjr]

VOTE: Monkey

We had nine hours left, could have at least waited for a claim...

...oh well, I wouldn't have believed a power role claim anyway.

[Wickedestjr]

Working on a post now.

[Wickedestjr]

havingfitz

, what made you decide to vote Monkey? You were leaning towards voting Oka in your last post before hammering.

We had nine hours left, could have at least waited for a claim...

...oh well, I wouldn't have believed a power role claim anyway.

Did you see fitz's earlier post about how he had RL tonight? So he had to post when he did to break the deadlock because he won't be on for the rest of the evening.

Yes, I was fully aware of fitz's post. I don't think that justifies the pre-claim hammer. e.g. havingfitz could have asked somebody on the Monkey bandwagon to unvote until Monkey claimed: I would have been happy to.

At this point in time you state that Kelbris is the scummiest of your scum reads. Why, at this point in time, do you not vote for Kelbris? There are two votes on him (Fishie, Oka) and NO ONE is voting for Monkey (until your preview reveals that FA just did). He is the counterwagon you want and can probably run up. So why avoid that? Yes I realize you "wouldn't let a no-lynch happen" but I just cannot understand for the life of me how STARTING a new wagon at T-X hours (your vote was Thurs 10pm according to my boardclock, deadline was at Fri 5pm) when you have half-a-wagon started on one of your actual scum reads.

I've explained this already.

I voted Monkey instead of kelbris because I thought he was significantly scummier. I had a strong point against Monkey whereas my suspicion of kelbris was (and still is) pretty gut-based. I voted for the player that I suspected the most, because

that is what my role pm tells me to do

. I don't know how else to explain why I vote for my top suspects...

Why does Monkey's lack of votes make him a bad lynch candidate? Clearly his lynch had potential because it ended up getting majority. And it's not like we lynched him using brand new evidence - the point we lynched him for had been discussed for several days. It was clear that he couldn't explain his slip up.

Now that you know Monkey was town, how do you feel about your case on him?

Monkey, as town, must have had some reason for slipping up the way that he did. But he wasn't able to articulate. That lack of explanation indicated to me that he didn't have a town thought process behind the slip up. I still believe that the case was strong/valid.

[Wickedestjr]

Speaking of Oka...I really do not like his choo choo contentless votes so far on D2 and combined with his presence on the Monkey wagon, he is firmly entrenched in my top three suspects (kelbris, random Idget & Oka).

I don't have the ego to think they are all scum but I could see 2 of them being scum. 1 scum in the group would be a disappointment and 0 would require I pursue remedial scum hunting in some Newbie games.

If you had one try, right this second, to guess the scum team, would kelbris/random/Oka be your best (yet not fully confident) guess?

I want to hear from wicked personally myself and random is not doing anything to erase my suspicion of him with his extremely low contributioin quotient. He's still my #1 suspect currently and there's no way on earth I want him to last until endgame. Unfortunately it takes other people to create a wagon to at least get him to contribute.

Upon preview, wicked's working on his post so that's a start.

Why do you want to hear from me?

[Wickedestjr]

I need to re-evaluate. Thoughts and vote coming up later...

[Wickedestjr]

This I don't understand. If you would have been happy to unvote until Monkey claimed, then why didn't you? you could have easily said that you were waiting until he claimed.

I didn't un-vote because a.) I wasn't expecting havingfitz to hammer and b.) un-voting can be seen as false expression of doubt, even if I make it clear that I'm just waiting for a claim.

Because I was A, interested in hearing your responses to massive's questions and B, interested in getting input from the players who haven't chimed in yet on day 2 of the game (now day 3).

You were interested in hearing my response to massive's questions about my vote for Monkey?

Huh...

You didn't seem interested when you made this post:

UNVOTE: I can get on board with a monkey lynch, I'm not a fan of the oka wagon or the people on it. VOTE: monkey. Posting from my phone so if this looks strange that's why.

[Wickedestjr]

Moving my vote to Monkey vice Oka wasn't too difficult for me. Oka was at the tail end of my preferred three suspects yesterday and looking at the wagons...I did not want to be on the same wagon as my top two suspects when there was a wagon that had 2-3 of my stronger town reads on it.

You chose to vote the player that your town reads suspected instead of the player you suspected... and it wasn't a difficult decision? Hmm...

I just noticed something about Slandaar after reading his ISO. He never ONCE voted for me, despite Oka's insistence that he wanted me dead yesterday and Monkey today.

Huh... I generally get a scum feel from many of kelbris's posts, but this seems like a town tell. I'm inclined to think that kelbris-scum would be more aware of who he's getting votes from.

The two people Slandaar was tunneling

Riblet/Formerfish or Cheetory/Aristophanes

we should choose a lynch from those two tbqh.

This post is currently the front runner for scummiest/laziest post of day 2. Can it be beat? Time will tell.

[Wickedestjr]

Still need to do some rereading before I figure out where I want my vote...

[Wickedestjr]

Hmm... the scum team could be something like havingfitz/viking/FA_Q2. If not, then I could be wrong about one of Saul/random/Aristo... Still need to think about it some more. If I had to vote right now, I think I'd revote for viking.

I agree that we shouldn't lynch so quickly - I for one am not ready for this day to end. The case (that Oka isn't being productive) is boring and not at all convincing for me.

[Wickedestjr]

Why me?

Mostly POE, slight gut vibe... I know that's a dissatisfying answer, but it's all I've got. You haven't done anything super scummy, but you also haven't done anything that havingfitzscum isn't capable of.

So are you comfortably reading massive,

kelbris, Oka

and Fish as town?

Not at all. The 'guess' that I just made is fairly weak, but it was my favorite at the time I made it.

I think the odds would favor listing 6 players and having all the scum team in it...though I'm not confident you have.

Hey, I clearly listed a top three...

Is that the only case that's been made against Oka?

...pretty much, I can't remember any other reasonable points. Please give me a post number that presents another reason for lynching Oka.

What are your thoughts on active lurking? More likely to be from town or scum?

It's annoying and anti-town, but annoying and anti-town =/= scum. And sadly, it's probably more likely to be from town.

[Wickedestjr]

viking...

I don't think you ever listed me as scum so your point to havingfitz doesn't make sense.

I haven't, yet, but you've been a main candidate so far and wicked has listed you as a scum candidate before. When I was asking, it wasn't a reflection of how I felt about you, it was a reflection of how wicked felt about you. Make sense?

I have never listed Oka as a scum candidate. In fact, he is one of the few players (if not, the only player) that I have consistently town read.

[Wickedestjr]

Oka is probably town and this recently-formed wagon on random is even worse. Can we vote somebody for something

other

than lack of contribution? I

still

get the impression that these wagons revolve around contribution-levels. Sorry, but I don't sign up for mafia games to policy lynch. We are currently pursuing null tells that towns chase after in virtually

every game

that I've played... Maybe that's why everyone's so bored. Oka and random clearly don't care about racking up town points. Let's go after something more interesting, like vikingfan's interest in my Monkey-case only after he helped with the mislynch:

Because I was A, interested in hearing your responses to massive's questions and B, interested in getting input from the players who haven't chimed in yet on day 2 of the game (now day 3).

You were interested in hearing my response to massive's questions about my vote for Monkey?

Huh...

You didn't seem interested when you made this post:

UNVOTE: I can get on board with a monkey lynch, I'm not a fan of the oka wagon or the people on it. VOTE: monkey. Posting from my phone so if this looks strange that's why.

Vote: vikingfan

[Wickedestjr]

I don't think that my votes specifically are based on activity in the way that you are saying. My vote on Oka had reasoning behind it, you could just disagree with those reasons. My vote on Rando is for reasons other than activity as well. You try to make it seem like these are both only attempts at policy lynching slots based on inactivity and a general lack of give a fuck from those slots. I would like to think that the slots are acting in such a way that there are easily seen scum motivations behind their play right now. Who do you have on those wagons voting for policy lynches?

Firstly, I don't think I ever used the word 'activity' when describing the cases against Oka and random. If I did, then I didn't mean to. I get the impression that the cases revolve around lack of contribution/care. Yes, you and others have given multiple reasons for voting Oka, but they all seem to revolve around the same unconvincing/irrelevant theme. The only outlier that I noticed is this;

Then there is the attitude. It reeks of caught scum trying to give as little away as possible.

...which is really ambiguous and you've given no evidence for it.

@Wicked - I agree with this statement, fwiw:

I feel like you are slightly misrepping the reasons people are voting the slots that they are.

For me it's more of a poe thing and strength of Town reads.

I don't think that's enough to put someone at L-1 on day 2.

[Wickedestjr]

We now have 9 days to lynch. We're getting hung up attacking non-players and scum are happy to let the conversation die.

Monkeyman576(7): FA_Q2, Wickedestjr, OkaPoka, Saul Goode, vikingfan,

Slandaar

, havingfitz

Gotta figure that this isn't all town. If Oka is scum, then two of his buddies aren't on his wagon, so there's at least one more scum on Monkey's wagon. Who is it?

What do

you

think?

[Wickedestjr]

Hmm, after reviewing your ISO, in post #437, you note that oka is a very weak town read but also acknowledge that oka would be a very informative lynch. Do you still believe this?

Yes, but I would prefer a suspect lynch over an information lynch now that it's day 2.

Any particular reason for this? Or is it simply this previous post?

Post 565

is

my reason.

To start with, I don't get your claim that you weren't expecting havingfitz to hammer. You yourself specifically said it was all up to havingfitz to vote, havingfitz noted RL reasons why he had to hammer soon. What exactly did you expect to happen? When players reference R/L events, I tend to believe them unless given pressing reason otherwise and I haven't seen it this game. also, you can specifiy that you're watiing for a claim when you unvote and people can take it as they will. plus, a little later, you note that you wouldn't have believed a power role claim anyway so obviously a claim didn't matter to you at all.

If havingfitz needed to hammer prematurely, then I would have expected him to say who he was planning to vote - then somebody with more time on their hands could unvote until the claim came. There's no doubt in my mind that havingfitz's activity constraint was legitimate. Also, this game has been filled with mistakes and misreading - if I unvoted, I wouldn't trust everyone to understand that I was only doing it for havingfitz. Finally, it doesn't matter if I wouldn't have believed a claim (I'm pretty sure I admitted that after the hammer) - it's still good practice to claim before lynch - if Monkey had claimed something like tracker or vigilante, then it might have been worth it to keep him alive an extra day even if it seemed fake. I also don't want this town getting in the habit of hammering pre-claim...

But I'm not sure why you're still questioning me on this. I'm satisfied with how the day ended, the hammer issue was just a slight problem for me that I hope is corrected in the coming days.

[Wickedestjr]

@Wicked...are you talking about random Idget's vote on Oka when you say "it's not enough to put someone at L-1 on D2? If so...does that do anything to your opinion of random Idgit? (aside from the fact he's in you stand by group of suspects)

random was the one that put Oka at L-1, but I was actually talking about Saul's reasoning. I believe Saul said he suspected Oka for POE, and I responded that that wasn't good enough for an L-1 bandwagon.

The horrible L-1 vote from random doesn't really change anything for me. It falls in line with the rest of his bad play. Also, I have thought and still think random is town.

I get a "no what do YOU think" and a lambasting of the mere suggestion of discussing it.

I wasn't trying to be rude. I didn't explicitly answer your VCA question because I thought my answer was obvious - I'm voting for vikingfan and I've also expressed suspicion of FA_Q2 - both of them were on the Monkey bandwagon.

Sure. If Oka is scum and there's a viable bandwagon, his buddies aren't going to sit on Oka for towncred in the off-chance he gets lynched -- they're instead going to (at least one) vote for the counterwagon in an attempt to save their buddy. Make sense?

Yeah. I had forgotten Oka was the CW so I didn't put that together. Did anyone move from Oka to Monkey towards the end, though? That's the place to look if you are going to follow through with this plan...

Nobody switched their vote from Oka to Monkey, but it is worth noting that havingfitz said he was more suspicious of Oka the post before hammering Monkey. If Oka is scum, havingfitz is a nice candidate for partner.

[Wickedestjr]

Oka is the better choice imo

, as the CWs yesterday are glaring.
It seems people are okay either way though, so here we are.

VOTE: Idget

Uh what.

I don’t think random is going to give us any info at all and is a sub par lynch compared to Oka.

The problem is, I don't want random anywhere near lylo. I agree oka is probably the most informative lynch, but if oka is town,

I think he could be very helpful in endgame

. I can't see random being that, whether he's town or not.

Might be a bit of a stretch...

[Wickedestjr]

Finace was in the emergency room tonight. I did not have time to do anything.

No worries, real life comes first. I wish you both the best of luck.

@Iknal

You should title this thread "A Game of Pokes" for all the prodding and dodging

Seconded.

[Wickedestjr]

still waiting on that random case

Are you referring to random's case on vikingfan? If so, what do you think of

my

vote for vikingfan?

[Wickedestjr]

As for the vote, wanted to psh for L-1 claim early so we could make a good decision in enough time to not be rushing, especially with all the inactivity.

We have five and a half days left - plenty of time to get a lynch through, even with inactivity. No need to force a claim from somebody that you didn't actually prefer to lynch.

I have since gone through and compared the two and like the Idget lynch better. Still want dat claim tho.

You voted random fifteen minutes after saying Oka was the better choice. You "have since gone through and compared the two" in fifteen minutes?

[Wickedestjr]

Between Oka and random, I think Oka is a much better lynch.

Unvote. Vote: OkaPoka

(L-2 I think)

[Wickedestjr]

Post(s) coming soon

[Wickedestjr]

Ughh... I'd been town reading random pretty much all game, but that 1-shot vig claim just feels weird...

I need to think about him and Oka... Kop is probably town.

Also, if he's town, mis-kill prevention is an

awful

reason to lynch random. There are ways around it.

[Wickedestjr]

We could tell random who to kill. That doesn't prevent mis-kills, but it does remove the fear of having a kill in the hands of an untrusted player.

[Wickedestjr]

Ughh... I'd been town reading random pretty much all game, but that 1-shot vig claim just feels weird...

I need to think about him and Oka... Kop is probably town.

Also, if he's town, mis-kill prevention is an

awful

reason to lynch random. There are ways around it.

how is kop town?

Kelbris was town for a reason that I gave not long before he replaced out. Kip appears not to care about how he is perceived. It's largely a gut feel, but I think he's genuinely interested in hunting scum, even if he's not doing much.

We could tell random who to kill. That doesn't prevent mis-kills, but it does remove the fear of having a kill in the hands of an untrusted player.

This is a horrible idea. Iso me and find my post where I already explained why this will never work.

I checked your iso and... I saw no reasoning given. Please quote and bold whatever it is I'm missing.

well it mainly comes from his white knighting me day 1 and the fact that he wants to pick who to vig for random.

Don't accuse me of white knighting. I get that accusation all the time as town and it is incredibly annoying. Believe it or not, it is very common for me to disagree with the majority (and correctly so). I can't remember the last time I defended a townie, as scum, with the intention of getting town points later.

Also, I never suggested that I decide on a vig shot. I'd love to, but I'm fully aware of the fact that I'm not confirmed town. What I had in mind: we all, together, make the decision if we feel that we can make a better choice than what random would.

[Wickedestjr]

there are so many reasons why we shouldn't decide the kill.

but mainly that allows scum to manipulate the very own pr's shot we have in place. and im having none of that.

And how exactly would scum manipulate the pr's shot? With a redirector? Well, redirectors aren't normal. With a role blocker? Well, that's not really a problem here either. If scum role blocked random's shot, then we don't have to worry about a mis-kill. If scum let random shoot, thinking he would hit town, then the worst case scenario is that a scummy player dies and we can lynch somebody else instead - which isn't too terrible considering we lost our cop already.

Also, if random is a one shot vig and we kept him alive and allowed him to shoot whoever he wanted, then he could accidentally shoot another town power role. If we tell him who to shoot, that is no longer an issue.

Do you have any confidence whatsoever that rando would actually make the kill? Given his posting, I can't be sure that he would do it.

I think, if he's a one shot vigilante, then he would shoot who we told him to, with the condition that he gets lynched otherwise. He's useless, but not rebellious.

And then we're up a creek without a paddle because say he doesn't make the kill. is it due to lack of activity or due to him being scum or ?

If there's no shot, then you don't have to worry about a mis-kill... The lack of a kill doesn't seem like a problem worth discussing right now- it sounds like tomorrow's business.

[Wickedestjr]

link

Exhibit A

Post 826: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2488580

But the fact you have a strong town read on Wraith is quite funny, you are either naieve as hell or just have an off day on your scumdar

Post 859: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2491193

I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say if you flip town, wicked is probably mafia. What better way to earn town cred than to support a townie and say he is not scum.

In this game, I was town and, whada ya know, Wraith was also town.

Exhibit B

Post 1586: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5940888

It looks like he's trying to be off wagon when we flip town, but he doesn't know what to do with himself.

In this game, I was town and, whada ya know, Lying Cat was also town.

Exhibit C

Post 535: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p6008535

I was telling that, if we mislynched two times, than we may be looking at wrong directions, thus being manipulated by scum either on-wagons or off-wagons. You and Egg was the two popular town reads, so it worths looking at you.

I saw many scum defending the mislynch candidate to gain town credits. And you may be one of them.

I made several posts on day 2 of this game which undermined/opposed the popular bandwagon. Nevertheless, that player was lynched and flipped town. Here, I’m accused of potentially trying to get town credit. I was town.

[Wickedestjr]

Do I trust him? No.

I don't see any reason not to trust him. Like I said, he's useless, but not rebellious. Also, lynching somebody to prevent a mis-kill is still awful.

If we give 2-3 choices they could try to pick who he would target to frame him when one kill comes out,

If random shoots scum, then this isn't an issue. If random shoots town and scum gives up their night kill for the sole purpose of framing random, then that's also a good thing - scum doesn't kill and our vig kills a suspicious townie that we would lynch otherwise.

there could be a role blocker on the scum team that would simply block Rando and frame him, or scum could just no kill to have only one flip tomorrow, then same boat for Rando.

Key word is 'could'. I also don't see the issue with scum 'framing' him. If scum roleblock random in order to frame him, then there is no vig shot tonight and random's a lynch candidate tomorrow. How is that any different from the alternative plans of A.) lynching him today or B.) keeping him alive and telling him not to kill? It isn't.

And with regards to picking those targets, scum would have a voice in the discussion and could just let Rando make the kill because they know it is going to be on town most likely (depending on the targets).

Scum also have a voice in tomorrow's lynch. Think of this hypothetical shot as a replacement for the next lynch.


Seriously guys? These arguments against my idea are plain awful.

[Wickedestjr]

No, it is terrible for him to reveal the target because it directly allows them to manipulate the power.

They can choose whether or not to roll block it based on the target or whether or not to kill him based on his target. Essentially it would give the scum team the information they need to decide if role blocking is something they should do or are they going to get another dead townie out of it.

It is unlikely that he will end up taking out a scum – declaring it beforehand is almost like protecting scum from his ability.

I already explained why this isn’t an issue. First paragraph of my 815, the post that this is a response to…

Wicked. If we tell Rando to shoot Kop and Kop is a town PR he is going to out himself to avoid dying, which is just as bad.

It’s not “just as bad”. It’s actually “slightly better”. In one scenario, random kills a town PR. In the other scenario, the town PR is outed but they either survive or are killed by scum instead of by a vig. Sounds better to me.

And with a missing kill Rando gets speed lynched tomorrow.

there could be a role blocker on the scum team that would simply block Rando and frame him, or scum could just no kill to have only one flip tomorrow, then same boat for Rando.

Uhh wat... How can you say both of these things?

Yes they do, but its harder to convince other people to vote with you for a lynch than it is to convince one guy with a gun to take aim and fire. And I would like to have our vig be useful and not be mislynched tomorrow.

I don’t think you make a legitimate argument here. You say it’s easier for scum to convince one guy than it is for scum to convince a majority. But you ignore the fact that it’s also easier for town to convince one guy than it is for town to convince a majority. Scum don’t become more powerful in the ‘convincing one guy’ game.

Do you have experience where leashing a vig/SK worked? If you do then I am all ears. If not then I'm going with people better at this game then I am who have derided the idea of leashing in any capacity.

I think I’ve only advocated leashing once (I can’t remember what game) and it probably didn’t work.

Did the ‘people better at this game’ deride leashing even when the vig was an irrelevant/useless player?

[Wickedestjr]

@wicked do you agree to have whiteknighted me?

I agree to have defended you. I disagree that I am scum trying to earn town points by doing so, if correct.

@wicked in all those cases, the player you defended flipped town. is there any difference in this game?

Yes, they were all town. That is kinda why I used those players as examples. If you're town, which I think you are, then this game is no different from the rest. What is the point of this question?

Please

drop this point. It is 100% garbage, you have no good reason for thinking I’m scum. I have even given evidence that disproves your point against me. What more do you want?

[Wickedestjr]

Also, if random is a one shot vig and we kept him alive and allowed him to shoot whoever he wanted, then he could accidentally shoot another town power role. If we tell him who to shoot, that is no longer an issue.

Why do you think that us directing random's shot would be any better at avoiding a town power role?

Scenario to prevent: random decides, on his own, to kill Kop. Kop dies and flips town PR. Scum kill a very pro-town VT that same night.

Example of directing: We agree, as a town, to direct random's shot to Kop. Kop responds, "no, don't shoot me! I'm a cop!". random instead shoots scum or a scummy VT. Scum probably kill Kop.

Result: Scum/scummyvt and (probably, but not certainly) Kop die. This is better than the original scenario where Kop and a very pro-town VT die.

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked would probably be the best candidate for that.

I will not be doing this.

Random, are you going to shoot Kop? Yes or no? It looks like that's the plan we're going with so I want confirmation from you that you are following along with this plan.

Who said this was the plan we were going with? When did this become "the plan"?

Firstly, I thought you said you weren't on board with the directing plan...

Secondly, Kop is probably town and I would be disappointed if he died tonight.

[Wickedestjr]

then why vote me?

I think you have a greater chance of flipping scum than random/Kop AND I think your lynch is more informative.

I would much prefer lynching vikingfan, but I haven't been able to get support from anyone other than random.

kop is vt...

I realize that. It was just an example.

[Wickedestjr]

So you think im town, but i have a greater chance at flipping scum
seems legit!

Really? This is not a difficult concept. I think you are town, but my townread on you isn't as strong as my town reads on random or Kop. What's the problem here?

[Wickedestjr]

Scum are probably in {FA_Q2, havingfitz, massive, vikingfan}.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm not really on board with it but given the short duration until the deadline, I'm going with it because it seems like everyone else is and I can't change people's minds. That's why I'm trying to make sure random is the one who's on board with the plan because he's the one we're counting on.

I thought most players were opposed to directing the shot. Who do you think supports the idea of directing random's shot?

Let me ask this question: let's say random doesn't post that he's going to shoot. What do we do then? go ahead and vote oka and hope random follows through? Skate with a last-minute plan at the last minute? I don't think enough people will go for that. Unless town has a massive about-face that I haven't seen coming yet.

I'm comfortable lynching Oka and hoping random follows through. I don't see any good alternative.

[Wickedestjr]

So you think im town, but i have a greater chance at flipping scum
seems legit!

Really? This is not a difficult concept. I think you are town, but my townread on you isn't as strong as my town reads on random or Kop. What's the problem here?

im questioning the fact that you want to lynch a townread.

I don't want to lynch you. You're just a better option than random and Kop.

[Wickedestjr]

Mod: I am V/LA from May 3rd to May 5th.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm back. Catching up now.

[Wickedestjr]

Read page 37.

Didn't think of that -_-
I still have mt shot if I was rbed.

random, this really needs an explanation.

What made you abandon vikingfan as a top scum candidate from end-of-D1 to post 646?

MonkeyMan temporarily replaced vikingfan as my top suspect.

You answer questions from him even. Your interactions with him post-vote even don't seem like you think he's scum (see 699, 815 for example).

I’m not going to put any less effort into answering somebody’s questions just because I think they are scum.

For now...I'll close this with saying I do not think we can bring random Idigit to LYLO....when is where we will be with one more mislynch.

There’s another solution - lynch somebody with greater likelihood of flipping scum and avoid LyLo entirely.

• - He could be scum. He's been a consensus scum suspect who is only alive by virtue of his claim. Of all the players left in the game; wicked and Kop are the only two who haven't voted random at some point.
  - He could be the one who is bulletproof. A bulletproof SK is not that uncommon and he would be crazy not to claim vig if put at L-1.
  - He could be town telling the truth. But how will we ever know? Even if he is town telling the truth...he apparently can not prove it and his play to this point in the game makes him a town terrible option for a LYLO situation. If scum do have a RB they aren't going to waste a kill on random and will just keep preventing him from proving his claim.

In all three of the above scenarios random idgit is a liabilty and town is better/stronger without him. With a huge bonus if he turns out to be an anti-town role.

I disagree with the bolded. If random is SK, then he is an awful lynch because there is likely a mafia role blocker role-blocking him every night anyway. If random is town, then we absolutely can’t afford to mislynch him because it means seven-man lylo tomorrow which is super tricky.

And there’s little evidence for him being mafia.

[Wickedestjr]

havingfitz is starting to feel like town again, even though I dislike his push for a random lynch.

Vote: vikingfan

- trying this again, hoping it finally works - he is still my top suspect

viking/FA/massive perhaps

[Wickedestjr]

He's at L-2

[Wickedestjr]

That said, it also seems like random isn't getting any traction either so it may be time for us to start branching off to other prospects, much as I don't like rando's play. And to answer the question, I'm not sure if he's scummy or not to be honest. I just know his play is definitely not helping town, especially with his outright refusal to answer questions. Plus, he posts a case on me, declares it to be part 1, I rebut it, and he comes back again and posts a couple of one-liners and never posts part 2, much less rebut what I wrote.

Any thought on finding scum among the vote counts? It's page 39 and we've yet to see much investigation on those. Currently, fitz (though forced to be the hammer), wicked, and FA are the ones on both lynches so that is a place to start.

If you are town, interested in considering other options and analyzing the vote counts, why don't

you

contribute to the endeavor? It seems like you are waiting for somebody else to start, which is strange if you are town.

[Wickedestjr]

wrt wicked Post 951 - who has a greater likelihood of being scum than random Idgit and why?

The only

stronger

town reads I have are on Aristophanes and Kop. Aristophanes is a gut read and I've explained my Kop read already. So the players that I believe have a greater likelihood of flipping scum include everyone else: massive, you, vikingfan, FA_Q2, and Formerfish.

And why does the possibility that random could be an SK continually getting RB'd make them a bad lynch? SK or mafia...if either is left standing at endgame it still equals a loss for town.

True, an SK is a role that needs to be eliminated in order for town to win. The hypothetical SK needs to be eliminated...

at some point

. But if randomidget was an SK and we lynched him today, I think that puts us in a tougher spot than leaving him alive.
a.) We lynch random, he flips SK, next day is seven man lylo with three scum. We have to lynch correctly three times in a row without the scum (which make up half the town at this point) manipulating any single townie.
b.) We don't lynch random today, we still have an opportunity to lynch mafia today. And if we are wrong, then random's shot is a (somewhat unreliable, yet existing) safety net.
I feel that the latter option would give town an extra chance.

Town can afford one more mislynch. Unless there is a very credible/strong case on someone else being scum (which doesn't seem to be the case up to this point per the results)...then I would rather focus on someone I genuinely suspect who at the same time...if town...who's mislynch would be balanced by the benefit gained of not having them in LYLO. But I do not think random Idigit is town.

Technically, yes town can afford a mislynch. But I think our chance of winning after a mislynch is really small. Town would have to lynch correctly three times, scum will have a lot of influence, and if any single townie makes a mistake then it's game over. Seven man lylo is so tricky, that today is lylo as far as I'm concerned.

I'm a huge proponent of votecount analysis but this game has not been good for that. D1 everyone was pushing for Monkey or Oka...and they were lynched in that order. So D1 scum could have been on either wagon just as easily as the other. The D1 wagons basically cancel each other out wrt vote analysis benefit. And D2's mislynch (Oka) was at one point or another voted by everyone still in the game (except for you).

For the most part, I agree with you here. But I would like to point out that scum don't usually vote together.

[Wickedestjr]

I said that I wss used to shot being conserved if roleblocked due to town of Salem.

I read that post. I just didn't see why you would be so confident if you were basing this off of another game. Perhaps you should check with the mod?

[Wickedestjr]

FA_Q2, what do you think of vikingfan?

[Wickedestjr]

Mod:

Please prod vikingfan and Kop.

We might have lost Kop...

[Wickedestjr]

I kinda agree with Fitz because the whole idea of Rando being town is predicated upon the idea that scum have a role blocker or some sort of protective role saved Viking. I am discounting the protect on Viking because why would anyone save him? So that leaves a rb or a lying Rando. If Rando was playing the game and helping us find scum in anyway shape or form then this would probably be a different discussion. However he's not. Barring scum slipping in some catastrophic way and outing themselves I think that Rando would be a good lynch for information and to save us from ourselves later in the game.

Think about it. Rando comes to lylo with us and we are stuck in the same situation with him. If there is a rb do you think he's going to allow Rando to get a shot off, and that is taking into account that Rando has any shots left. If Rando is lying then we are right back where we started.

You keep calling this a policy lynch when its really not.

Would you consider lynching one of two people who've claimed the same role as a policy lynch? No, you would not.

I agree that, if random is town, he was role blocked last night. However, I disagree that we should lynch random for information. It is day 3, one day before LyLo, we should NOT be information lynching right now. We need to be lynching the player that is most likely to flip scum.

Correct, if there is a role blocker, then random will not get a shot through tonight and he never would. That's not a reason to lynch him though. A role blocked shot is not a liability, it's just a lost benefit.

I have read this post several times and, I'm trying to understand, but I can't - what is the relevance of the bolded? Nobody cc'd vigilante.

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked...Is a fake/unproven claim a liability?

I don't think so. It's unhelpful, but unhelpful =/= harmful.

Even if Kop/random are town and mafia believed that random would shoot Kop, there is still incentive to role-block him. 1. There's always a chance that random won't shoot as expected and scum don't necessarily want to risk losing one of their members. 2. Kop is mis-lynchable the next day.

I think it's most likely that scum have a role-blocker AND Kop is town.

vikingfan is at L-1, he should claim.

[Wickedestjr]

Speaking of claiming, it's the day before LyLo - usually the best time to mass claim imo. Is anyone else interested?

[Wickedestjr]

Can someone link to a good case or two on viking?

No quick hammer would be nice too.

My suspicion of vikingfan is largely POE/gut, but here are links for the more concrete points that I have provided:
Post 172
Post 278
Post 565

Wickedest

: Does your gut read on Aristophanes have any non-gut aspects?

I townread Cheetory for the stubbornness in his awful Slandaar vote as well as for the manner in which he replaced out. But my town read on Aristophanes, in particular, is solely gut-based.

[Wickedestjr]

*Prod dodge* even though I responded eight posts ago

Nothing more to say right now

[Wickedestjr]

Eh... while I think vikingfan is the best lynch today, I don't think he was bread crumbing there. The 'tracking' comment was made on day 2, after the cop had already died.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm starting to think havingfitz is scum again.

I like post 1045.

#783 - asks mod about a replacement for random....lol....he really wants random gone one way or another. I prefer the vote over the replacement.

If you are scum and random is town, then it would make sense for you to want him lynched before replaced. If you are town, why wouldn't you be willing to wait for a good replacement?

[Wickedestjr]

- What is there to like about FA's post?
- Why, as town, would I prefer a replacement to a lynch over someone I believe to be scum?

- Even if you acknowledge that viking and random are most likely not partners, I still think your read on viking is strange given how much you have pushed for a random lynch. How likely is it that random is scum?
- Well it seems that most of your case against random revolves around his lack of contribution/interest in the game. random hasn't given us much information to work with, so I'm not sure why you wouldn't want a replacement. It might not change your mind but it could at least strengthen the scum read that you already had. If town, a replacement could also yield a scum hunter that puts more effort in.

[Wickedestjr]

Prod dodge. Will try to post tonight or early tomorrow. Waiting for a hammer...

[Wickedestjr]

If I was really scum, you'd expect to see scum out there defending me given the state of the game and that's not happening.

Now is a perfectly reasonable time to bus because scum can afford to lose a member for the benefit of earning town points. This is an awful argument.

Kop is probably town, I've explained why, and will be disappointed if he is lynched today...

[Wickedestjr]

Also I wouldn't have my shot if blocked :/

[Wickedestjr]

I

also

need to reread a little bit. My reads haven't changed, but I'm not yet sure which of my suspects I want to be voting right now.

[Wickedestjr]

If there is a protective role in this game, I think it would be best if they NOT claim at this point. Unless...
a.) They're about to get lynched.
b.) The player they protected last night is about to get lynched.

The no kill doesn't really help us that much, because we still have three lynches, but if we can prevent another kill, then we essentially win an extra lynch, which is a huge advantage. It is essential that the protective role stay hidden because of this possibility.

[Wickedestjr]

Actually, you know what, scratch post 1094 - I do

not

need to reread right now.

I have had decently strong town reads on Kop, random, and Aristo for a while now. That leaves FA_Q2, Formerfish, havingfitz, and massive. I was starting to reconsider Formerfish, but then I noticed this post;

Massive, what were you looking at when you voted? The last page has a vote count that shows viking at l-1 as well.

This post seems to convey some mild frustration with massive for accidentally hammering. If Formerfish was scum, and partners with viking, then he probably would not be so obvious in his frustration over the viking lynch. This makes a lot more sense coming from Formerfishtown that preferred a Kop lynch and genuinely believed that viking was town.

havingfitz is also town for asking if random shot last night. If he was scum then he would have probably figured out that random no longer had his shot - either he would have read random's posts more carefully or his partner would have informed him.

Sure, both of these points could be defended by WIFOM, but I really don't think that Formerfish/havingfitz are being tricky right now.

That means the scum are FA and massive.

Vote: FA_Q2

[Wickedestjr]

He did sound annoyed at the hammer, but how does that absolve him?

Because scum don’t want to make it obvious that they’re frustrated when their partner gets lynched.

And Wickedest, I call bullshit on him missing that post by Random.

So you think he saw the post and is acting like he didn’t? Why would he pretend to miss a post? He should be reading more carefully, but I do think random’s comment was easy to miss.

Do you have an actual case on FA and Massive or just a non-case for FF and Fitz?

Just a non-case for FF and Fitz. I don't see why that's a problem though. I've caught many a scum team from POE (it's half the reason I'd been trying to lynch viking all game). FA_Q2 and massive are competent players and they're not going to exhibit any obvious scum tells.

This sudden jump to conclusions seems really rash and I am losing some of the townlean I had on you.

It’s not a sudden jump to conclusions. I’ve been scum reading them for a while now.

[Wickedestjr]

Let's see if I can get something started. VOTE: vote kop since massive and aristo have already indicated interest in going after him. and 2 days is nothing, wicked got monkey lynched in less time. though like i said, there really shouldn't be a deadline without a player in kop's slot, unless he's the one we pick to lynch. There's no question his slot has been scummy across 2 different players.

I don't like this either - Viking knew he was going to be lynched at this point.

It was obvious that he would not be getting a wagon on KOP

to take his place.

I just don't know if i am going to read too much WIFOM with this post.

This is a weak point. The random wagon was not getting any support, Kop was really his only option. And the bolded is false - two other people immediately followed viking's vote.

[Wickedestjr]

Say what you want about POE, but there's absolutely no reason for me to hammer my scumbuddy when I can ignore the thread and let the no-lynch happen. There's no amount of towncred that replaces a scumbuddy. A no-lynch is as good as a mislynch if I'm scum.

You said you didn't know you were hammering...

And you can't honestly believe all of this. Firstly, a no lynch was never going to happen. I believe there was ~25-30 hours left at the time of your hammer. It's unreasonable to think that one vote could not get cast in that significant period of time. Secondly, a scum buddy is valuable, but the scum buddy in this case was already getting a lot of votes. I think town credit can replace a scum buddy that is already about to get lynched.

Have you ever bussed as scum before?

[Wickedestjr]

Okay, but the tone doesn't sound "annoyed townie" to me. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I'm not satisfied with that. If Formerfish was town that wanted Kop lynched instead of vikingfan, how would you have expected him to react differently?

I don't know why he would want to pretend that, but you see what I'm saying, no?
He should have read that in the ISO, especially if he was trying to figure Random out, not paint him for a lynch.
He wasn't actually looking at Random else how would he have missed that!

If there's no reason for him to pretend that, then no, I don't see what you're saying. random didn't use the phrase "the mod told me that" (or anything along those lines), so I can understand it being overlooked.

So, if I read this right, "They seem town, so they must be scum." Is that correct?
In my experience, that's usually wrong.

Wrong. That is not what I said. I said they wouldn't exhibit any obvious scum tells. They are both competent, and I doubt they'd display obvious scum tells as either alignment.

I suspect them because they haven't said or done anything that I'd expect them not to say or do as scum.

So what you're telling me is that you pre-PoE'd them based on a gut feeling that Viking was scum pre-lynch even though you have not actually seen enough to call them scummy???

Uh wat... What in the world is this...?

See post 952. I called the team viking/massive/FA before viking was lynched - because I had town read everyone else by that point. Viking flipped scum, so I continue to suspect massive and FA. I don't know how/why you don't understand that...

[Wickedestjr]

@wicked...

the no kill does help us because instead of needing 4 votes to get a mislynch...scum now need 5. Same as yesterday. I do not see how they have benefited from not killing. Assuming it was a conscious decision.

I wasn't trying to say that scum benefitted. I'm glad it happened, I was just saying that we don't get an extra lynch from it.

Can you restate why you think Kop and Aristo are town?

Kop seems interested in scum hunting and I get the impression that he doesn't care about how he's perceived. Quotes for my kelbris and Aristo town reads;

I just noticed something about Slandaar after reading his ISO. He never ONCE voted for me, despite Oka's insistence that he wanted me dead yesterday and Monkey today.

Huh... I generally get a scum feel from many of kelbris's posts, but this seems like a town tell. I'm inclined to think that kelbris-scum would be more aware of who he's getting votes from.

I townread Cheetory for the stubbornness in his awful Slandaar vote as well as for the manner in which he replaced out. But my town read on Aristophanes, in particular, is solely gut-based.

[Wickedestjr]

By the way, this is a town post;

I knew viking was scum in the manner how he tried to pin something on me.

[Wickedestjr]

Say what you want about POE, but there's absolutely no reason for me to hammer my scumbuddy when I can ignore the thread and let the no-lynch happen. There's no amount of towncred that replaces a scumbuddy. A no-lynch is as good as a mislynch if I'm scum.

You said you didn't know you were hammering...

And you can't honestly believe all of this. Firstly, a no lynch was never going to happen. I believe there was ~25-30 hours left at the time of your hammer. It's unreasonable to think that one vote could not get cast in that significant period of time. Secondly, a scum buddy is valuable, but the scum buddy in this case was already getting a lot of votes. I think town credit can replace a scum buddy that is already about to get lynched.

Have you ever bussed as scum before?

1:

My hammer post stated what the timer showed. You've had timer / deadline issues all game, haven't you?

2:

And evidently I was the only one not voting. Do you think any of the people not voting for vikingfan would have moved?

1: Your hammer post clearly says "one day five hours" which is equal to 29 hours and, thus, falls within the 25-30 hour range that I gave. I can count. That's plenty of time to get a hammer.
2: Yes, any competent player with town's best interest in mind would switch their vote to a less-preferred bandwagon, if it was necessary to prevent a no-lynch.

Withholding your vote would have never resulted in a no-lynch...

[Wickedestjr]

And nice leading question. Do you ask a lot of questions where the answer is obvious and known to all players?

It's not a leading question by any means, it's a simple yes or no question - and the answer is not obvious to me.

You said "there's no amount of town credit that replaces a scum buddy". If you honestly believed that, then you would have no reason to bus. If you can honestly say that you've never ever bussed, then I would retract my scum read on you completely.

But if you can't honestly say that, then I have no reason to trust that you wouldn't bus vikingfan here.

I'm not sure why you don't want to answer. Saying "yes" in no way proves that you are mafia (it just means it's still possible), and I understand that. I just want some insight into your bussing history...

[Wickedestjr]

You haven't explicitly answered yet, but it seems pretty clear what your answer will be, judging from posts 1112 and 1119.

When you say "yes", can you give me the name of the last game where you did? Thanks.

[Wickedestjr]

If you think I would bus vikingfan in this situation, do you also think I would present a comprehensive case on his scummy behavior during the Randomidget shooting fiasco?

Yes, that would not surprise me. Following the crowd, alone, would serve no benefit to you.

If you think I would bus vikingfan here, how do you feel about being the (arguably) person paying attention and having a legit reason to vote randomidget?

I'm sorry, I don't know what you're asking here...

If you want a busser, it's FA (see 1029) who is happily jumping on your bad argument.

Sounds good (but that doesn't make you town), you should vote for him.

And the answer is, of course I bus buddies as scum. Everybody busses. Which is why it's a ridiculous question. The question you want, if it's a legitimate question, is "have I ever lynched a scumbuddy" and the answer to that is no. My games list is in my wiki entry.

What specifically do you mean when you say "lynched a scum buddy" ?

[Wickedestjr]

"Not a PR" is not a reason to vote someone.

This seems like a misrep.

[Wickedestjr]

I suspect them because they haven't said or done anything that I'd expect them not to say or do as scum.

This is a horrible argument.
From what I gather, everyone else is a townread then, and they are Null, thus the closest to a scumread you have?

Pretty much - they've flown under the radar for most of this game and I think there's a reason why. I'm much better at finding townies than I am at catching scum. So I rely on the first to accomplish the latter.

[Wickedestjr]

Will try to get to this tonight.

[Wickedestjr]

For the sake of argument, why are two voters on the wagon of a now-confirmed scum more suspicious than two voters on the counterwagon to said scum?

I've already explained why I suspect you and FA. It has nothing to do with the fact that you both voted for vikingfan. You both could have voted for Kop yesterday and I'd still suspect you. Admittedly, I would suspect you

more

if you had voted Kop yesterday, but your vote for vikingfan doesn't help your image enough for me to townread you.

For reference: Does 1019 look like the work put forth by a scum bussing his buddy?

It doesn't seem particularly telling either way.

And the answer is, of course I bus buddies as scum. Everybody busses. Which is why it's a ridiculous question. The question you want, if it's a legitimate question, is "have I ever lynched a scumbuddy" and the answer to that is no. My games list is in my wiki entry.

What specifically do you mean when you say "lynched a scum buddy" ?

I mean "voted to lynch a scum buddy."

So you are claiming that you have bussed a scum buddy, but never voted for a scum buddy?

You should really be better about looking it up. Or maybe you've already seen 1029 and think it means something else?

Yeah I saw the post. Don't worry about me, I'm reading carefully.

It's a misrep because you're implying that FA voted viking solely for the fact that he was not a pr. But FA had other reasons, the belief that he was PR is simply all that was preventing him from voting viking initially.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm trying to keep up with activity, seeing he is the best vote, but finding it hard to make a thoughtful post to my thoughts on other bits as I am dealing with a family bereavement at the minute.

Sorry to hear that Kop.

No worries wrt activity, real life comes first.

[Wickedestjr]

Wickedest

: In this post, you criticize havingfitz for relying on strong townreads as one of the reasons he chose who he voted for at the end of D1. Considering your entire case today is centered around relying on strong townreads, and considering you've said that's the most common way you play the game, why would this strategy surprise you?

The context is completely different. havingfitz didn't vote MonkeyMan for POE, he voted MonkeyMan because he was following his strong town reads.

[Wickedestjr]

Still feeling comfortable with my vote...

[Wickedestjr]

I acknowledge that I screwed up yesterday, no excuses for that mislynch. Sorry FA, you really did nothing wrong.

[Wickedestjr]

Wickedest's POE is now officially 0 for 2.

Actually my POE is 1 for 2. I was wrong about FA, but right about you.

When I called you scum, you tried using your vote for vikingfan as a defense. I made it clear that I wasn't going to let bussing fool me, but you mentioned that you don't vote for your scum buddies. At the end of our conversation, you said:

I am claiming I have never voted to lynch a scum buddy

If massive is telling the truth about this, then his vote for vikingfan is basically proof that he is town in this game. So of course, I had to check his past games.

There are two things I noticed when looking through massive's games. First, is that he draws scum A LOT (lucky!) - enough that if there were a game where he bussed, it would be easy to miss. The second thing I noticed is that massive

has

voted to lynch a scum buddy. Even though he said he has

never

done that. Hmm.

Take a look at this game:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=59089

The scum team in this game was Boonskiies, Anatole Kuragin, and massive. I will provide some quotes from that game:

Spoiler: massive bussing

I forgot about Boonskiies's nonsense. 93 isn't "overanalyzing" despite what Boon says in 101; it's so much WIFOM I considered photoshopping his name on a box of Franzia. And on top of that, he actually stole that L-1 Autohammer from bjc in 1582 as a Playstyle Methodology? I say let's let the neighbors sort themselves out tomorrow.

vote Boonskiies

That vote stayed there until post 698.

GreenCrayons: In addition to the two posts I linked earlier which have my early thoughts, this is what I see from Boon up to my wanting to start a new train:

750 - Continuing to feed the "neighbors are both scum" conspiracy nonsense.
752 - His BBT vote is based solely on town-reading Csareo. That read is in 352 and is caused by one Csareo post.
831 - Backs Csareo's misunderstanding of English. Hard to imagine both of them miscomprehending that.
843 - Claims that BBT's scum case has many points, but doesn't enumerate them, or really seem to have deviated from "BBT is scum because Csareo is town" (since it also defends Csareo); also buddies nicely up to Jagged who has just arrived.
847 - Somehow becomes the main proponent for correctly understanding BBT, 16 posts later.

Add to that:

1235 - Continues to be the only person hunting an SK.

And this:

I have stated multiple reasons, and any competent person would understand why I'm voting BBT.

Talk to us like we're five and incompetent. Besides what I've mentioned above (the fact that you town-read Csareo) give us the ESPN Highlight Reel of why you are voting BBT.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Boonskiies

That vote stayed there until the end of the day. Next he voted for his other scum partner;

You seemed unsure on that read TTH, what's changed?

You want complete honesty on that answer? (Well, you're getting it, so too bad if you don't.)

The reason for my initial doubts was that I thought Anatole was hinting at bulletproof. He talked about it being an "all-passive" game, which leads me to believe that he has one. Regardless of how rational or irrational, that thought has taken hold and I really don't want to be lynched to be rewarded with shooting a bulletproof.

Now he's trying to slam the breaks on my lynch while projecting the "don't shoot me" attitude onto Boonskiies in case I get the couple more votes. So I'm back to thinking he's scum now.

So this case is very good and I would happily sheep this buuuuuuuuuut since you seem insistent on voting for yourself, I'll start the train.

VOTE: Anatole Kuragin

That vote stayed until the end of day 2.

massive, you don't remember voting for BOTH of your scum buddies? This game was just nine months ago. There is no way you forgot about that game. It is much much more likely that you are scum trying to earn town credit, hoping that nobody would actually check your meta.

Now is a great time to mass claim, and I think massive-scum should start us off.

[Wickedestjr]

Jesus Christ not this again. You continue to spin this "never voted a scumbuddy" thing to however it fits your argument when clearly what we have been talking about FROM THE START (and what's relevant to this game!) is whether or not I have ever placed the lynching vote on a scumbuddy.

1. No, this is wrong. I was never interested in hammer voting specifically. I was interested in your general bussing history. In post 1122, I said "I just want some insight into your bussing history...". No mention of hammering. Later in our conversation, this occurred;

And the answer is, of course I bus buddies as scum. Everybody busses. Which is why it's a ridiculous question. The question you want, if it's a legitimate question, is "have I ever lynched a scumbuddy" and the answer to that is no. My games list is in my wiki entry.

What specifically do you mean when you say "lynched a scum buddy" ?

I mean "voted to lynch a scum buddy."

So you are claiming that you have bussed a scum buddy, but never voted for a scum buddy?

Clearly I wasn't interested in hammer-votes specifically. I just wanted to know if you had ever voted for a scum buddy which is exactly what I said. If you were town, you would have just answered this (simple) question clearly and said "That's wrong, I HAVE voted for a scum buddy", because you have. But you didn't and you are scum.

IN THIS GAME, IT MAKES NO SENSE FOR ME TO HAMMER VIKINGFAN IF HE IS MY SCUMBUDDY.

2. This is another instance of scum-massive trying to confirm himself as town. I don't care that you hammered. Want to know why I don't care?

Because you didn't even KNOW that you were hammering.

Remember this;

My hammer: I saw FA's post at the bottom of 43 and thought I was posting immediately after it. I didn't go back and see there were additional posts until I saw some non-FA post immediately above my posted vote.

You are more competent than this. You cannot exhibit an accidental action and then say "oh, I'm town, I wouldn't have done that as scum" when the action itself was ACCIDENTAL. You are scum for trying to confirm yourself as town using this awful logic.

I HAVE NEVER HAMMERED A SCUMBUDDY.

3. This is also a lie. See this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=9170
massive and neko were scum partners.

Spoiler: massive hammering a scum buddy

I'm more than happy to hammer.

Just to quickly counteract EA's thought process: Given that the town has been REALLY weak up to this point (a weak doctor and no information roles), it was highly unlikely that there wasn't going to be some sort of information role reveal today. At five people, the best info we had to go on (starting the day) was who afatchic might have protected. I'm sure the Mafia have already thought about this, but Neko was definitely on the "possible" list. I think qwints's "attack" on neko is a distraction. I don't think they could have won the game without attacking one another here.

vote neko

Vote Count
neko2086 - 3 (stef, Erratos Apathos, massive)
massive - 1 (neko2086)

neko had spent the previous few days looking shifty. He'd spent much of the week debating his points from on top of the stepladder that he carried round with him, and speaking with a similar accent to Joe Pesci. Too similar for most folks' taste it seems, because it didn't take long after the group began opening up for them to conclude neko2086 was doing his best to make them all be dead. It's massive who finally decides enough is enough and shoves neko into the town fountain. Alas, his tiny legs are too weak to keep him afloat and he drowns. A quick search of his teeny body reveals a pair of binoculars, he must have been a

Tiny Mafia Watcher

. The town rejoice and head for bed. Or for the nearest bar and then bed. Or the nearest bar and then a kebab and bed. Or the nearest bar, a kebab and then the gutter. We've all been there, there's no shame in it...

It's now Night 5. I'd like to get the day rolling as soon as possible so that we can let Day Five roll over Christmas

Vote Count
massive - 2 (qwints, Erratos Apathos)
qwints - 1 (massive)

massive isn't above a little pleading to keep his life. Even after EA and qwints decide that he's the only remaining threat to their town's miniscule population he refuses to go quietly into the night. Alas, his voice is a little too high pitched to be trustworthy and before long he's face down, and twitching in a pool of his own teeny tiny blood. He was a

Tiny Mafia Goon

, and he deserved his messy death (not shown). Snow starts to fall, and sleigh bells can be heard for some reason. The town is safe for now. Until the citizens start trying to solve all their problems wit murder anyway...

Your next defense is probably going to be "OH, that game was soooo long ago, I forgot". Well, when you claim, in all caps, that you have never done something- you better be sure that you're telling the truth- and you weren't.


4. You should have been more specific when you said "voted to lynch" because it doesn't immediately imply hammering. "Hammering" is one word and easier to write out than "voted to lynch", yet you chose to use the latter, more ambiguous phrasing. Voting somebody, in general, implies voting to lynch them. For example, when I

Vote: massive

I didn't just hammer you, but I AM, most certainly, voting to lynch you.

[Wickedestjr]

If somebody has a protective role of any kind, they should claim right now.

[Wickedestjr]

I think we should still mass claim. Massive, want to pick someone?

[Wickedestjr]

Okay, I'm a VT.

Formerfish.

[Wickedestjr]

massive, who did you protect?

[Wickedestjr]

I was told I'm some sort of PR. I don't want to get into it much, but there was a voice and a vote involved. Wait a minute, fuck I'm a vt. Explains why all my attempted night actions failed.

Hmm... did you breadcrumb this anywhere?

[Wickedestjr]

Jesus H. Christ.

It was a fucking joke. Ari, you're a vt, doesn't it say in your role pm that you have a voice and a vote?

You people have a real problem understanding jokes.

Oh! It was a joke...

Ok, well, what is your actual role claim then?

[Wickedestjr]

Ok I don't remember, lemme check real quick...

[Wickedestjr]

Does it say you have a voice and a vote?

It does say something along those lines!

Unlike FF, I'm not a power role, though.

I think that was the joke. FF said he was a power role and then jokingly claimed VT instead... He has yet to reveal what his actual powers are. Whatever they are, I hope they can help town win this thing.

[Wickedestjr]

If FF has a role pm saying he has a voice and a vote as a VT, but is a PR, would that not make him scum with a fakeclaim of VT?

Huh... that sure sounds right to me. I say we just assume that's right and quicklynch him tonight, before he even gets the chance to explain himself.

Are both the words "voice" and "vote" present in your PM, Wicked?
If not, is one of the words replaced by a different keyword?

I'm not yet sure of the answer to this question. My team of investigators is working on it right now.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm reading a certain amount of snark in this post. Am I correct?

Wha...? No... I'm being

completely

serious.

[Wickedestjr]

I am a vt.

I got the vote part right, and assumed that the voice part would be there since it is a pretty standard thing to put in vt role flavors. That's my bad for assuming it would be in this one.

It's fine. I think Aristo and I were both just joking around.

[Wickedestjr]

I still am curious what the missing word is.
I know what it is.
Anyone else know what it is?

This conversation is slowly drifting into rule-breaking territory, that's why I avoided answering seriously. Discussion of role pm wording is against the rules. Also, it's pointless because the mod provided the vanilla townie role pm on the first page for everyone (even the mafia) to see.

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote.

[Wickedestjr]

Hmm... there's no way havingfitz and massive are both town. Hider, cop, one-shot vig, and doc make for an overpowered town. Also, iknal had three town power roles in the last game he modded.

I will be voting for one of those players. Most likely massive - but there are two minor things giving me pause;

Firstly, havingfitz, everyone seemed to town read me by the end of day 1. You weren't afraid that I would get night killed night 1?

Secondly, if massive is scum then that means he no killed on night 3 to setup for a doc claim. This is possible, but also pretty strange.


There are a lot more reasons for massive scum, though;
-See post 1175. He's been caught in a few lies after trying to confirm himself as town.
-Doc/Cop/Vig is a pretty unoriginal setup for us, it makes more sense that a hider would be in play to add some uniqueness.
-Doc/Cop is also potentially a deadly combo for scum. We know that there is a scum role blocker (because random's shot failed), but if that role were to get lynched on day 1, then there's nothing stopping the Doc/Cop team from taking over.


TL;DR - I'm probably going to end up voting massive again, but would like havingfitz to answer that question.

[Wickedestjr]

Prod dodge, will get to this tomorrow

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked's play over the last couple of days has really pushed him back to suspicious to me

Ridiculous. You have no reason to suspect me.

You may not like my POE scum hunting style, but I have explained why I rely so heavily on POE, can provide plenty of evidence for using it in the past, and have had plenty of success using it in the past. You don't like that I have scumread you despite you voting for vikingfan, but you have lied several times - my attack is perfectly valid and you haven't defended it.

havingfitz

have you ever breadcrumbed a town power role as scum before?

I'm ignoring the power role action discussion until iknal answers those questions and until I have had a chance to think it over.

[Wickedestjr]

A hider choosing to hide can not have night actions happen on him, unless they happen on the person he's hiding behind.

Does that mean the hider dies in both of the scenarios Aristo posted?

[Wickedestjr]

Aristophanes, havingfitz, Formerfish, Kop, what do you guys think of my post 1175? I think it's a pretty strong case for massive being scum and, for that reason, it kinda bugs me that everyone completely ignored it.

I can summarize here, but I still think the post itself is worth reading.

I called massive scum yesterday and he tried using his vikingfan vote as a defense against my suspicion. He pretty clearly claimed that he had never voted for a scum buddy before - this was a lie, I found games where he had. Then he changed his claim to "I have never hammered a scum buddy before" in order to try confirming himself as town. This is also a lie, I found a game where he hammered his scum buddy. It's also very scummy because he is trying to gain town points for his hammer

even though he didn't know that he was hammering

.

How is this, in any shape or form, town?

[Wickedestjr]

My defense is this: If I'm not the doctor, you have no explanation for no kill on N3 that doesn't involve wacky "scum skipped a kill" speculation.

That's not overly wacky. Firstly, the no kill didn't give town an extra lynch, so it doesn't really harm scum that much. Secondly, if it's sooo crazy for scum to no-kill, then the no-kill makes a really strong case for you being town... hmmmmm.

The argument from my end was and ALWAYS was "I have never hammered a scum buddy." It follows logically since my argument at the very start of D4 was "there's no amount of towncred that replaces a scum buddy."

Yes, but

I

was the one questioning you, and I

never

used the word 'hammer' when I was questioning you, I used the word 'vote' and 'vote' is all that I meant. You're ignoring this. When somebody asks a question, you should answer

their

question, not create a new question that is easier for you to answer. The "there's no amount of towncred...." line is not only relevant to hammer votes, the L-1/L-2/... votes also put a scum buddy's life at risk in exchange for town credit.

You did a very nice job of hunting up a game from, what, 2004?, that showed I could hammer a scum buddy. Shouting "LIES" at a failed memory from 10+ years ago is a little extreme, but since it's the ONLY thing you have, you gotta run with it.

It was actually 2008. Seven years ago, but it didn't take me long to find it. And it's not my fault that you made a claim that wasn't true. You should check your facts before saying you've NEVER done something. If I were making a claim like that, I would check my past games or use the phrase "I think", neither of which you did.

Why wouldn't I? You're obviously working very hard to shoehorn a case onto me that you yourself claimed started due solely to POE.

It started off as POE, there's nothing wrong with that. I made it clear that POE was enough reasoning for me, I have no reason to "work very hard to shoehorn a case" against you. It doesn't matter how the case starts, if I find better reasons then I will use them. And you're crazy if you think I'm not going to have issue with you lying. You never once said "Oops, my bad, I was wrong", you're continuing to defend your blatant lies and make me look like a misrepresenter. That's because you received a mafia role pm which told you that your objective is to avoid getting lynched.

You're trying to make it seem like I'm on a mission to get you lynched, but keep in mind: I clearly said that I would townread you if you were telling the truth about the meta. I was willing to town read you.

You're patently ignoring the rest of the town, despite the fact that even if I AM scum, there's still another scum out there that you've already mentally cleared.

You aren't trying to solve the game any more.

I'm not voting you right now. There's a reason for that. I'm focusing more on you because a.) there is much more evidence that you are scum and b.) up until now, I wasn't sure who your partner would be.

massive, if you are town, you are one of the most unreasonable players I have ever met. I've enjoyed playing with you up until today and am hoping that you are scum.

[Wickedestjr]

I think the scum are massive and Kop.

Still pretty confident that exactly one of havingfitz/massive is scum. Their power roles, together, make the town too strong. On the flip side, I think there's no way this town doesn't have a protective role. I have explained why massive is the scum of the two. Hopefully, I have convinced the other townies out there.

I have explained why I townread Aristo. That town read is the only one I'm still really comfortable with. This day has given me two more reasons to believe that;
-He was trying to use role pm wording to find scum.
-He's really focusing on power role actions after we lynch one of Kop/FF. It genuinely feels like he's trying to find a solution for town.

Below are quotes that I think speak for a massive/Kop team.

1. This interaction doesn't feel like scum buddies;

Spoiler: massive and Formerfish

Massive. You need to pull your head out of your ass here. Kelbris said that with a VT claim a cop would know not to investigate him. Oka said that if they were a cop, Kelbris would be high on their list of targets for an investigation. Oka is telling Kelbris why their theory on claimed VTs helping town is incorrect. This is not an example of someone trying to direct PRs, this is an example of someone explaining what they would hypothetically do in a given situation.

Look, if you don't like finding out why I'm voting for someone, then don't ask, OK? I realize that this is somewhat misdirected at you, but honestly I could give a rat's left nut if you agree with what I found scummy about Oka, and having both you and Saul step up to defend him is patently ridiculous. What could possibly be so townie about Oka that the both of you feel this strong of an urge -- strong enough to evidently vote ME -- to protect him?

Oka is saying, if he were the cop, that the claimed VT would be tops on his list of people to investigate. Not a popular wagon. Not a person he's trying to figure out the alignment of. Not anyone who's actually done scummy things, of which there are plenty to choose from. SPECIFICALLY the claimed VT, SPECIFICALLY because he claimed VT out of the gate. Obviously Oka is NOT a cop due to his wording, so who exactly is this phrase for? It's definitely NOT for Kelbris in an attempt to explain to him why his early play is bad for the town (otherwise someone else would have mentioned it by now, since everyone already weighed in on this a week ago). So what is it? A scare tactic? Legitimate good townie play?

No. So you must believe that Oka is just a bad enough player to actually investigate a claimed VT on N1. He even SAYS it would be wasted, but that he'd still do it. (Note that I am just now even seeing how in 199 Oka knows that investigating Kelbris N1 would be wasted, and doesn't even consider the result that a cop might get a guilty on Kelbris, despite that being the ENTIRE POINT of that sentence.)

So is that the Oka that you're defending?

Slandaar, I see you posting, and it's not lost on me, I'll follow up in another post, no sense in it getting lost in this.

The tone is overly frustrated and the response is too in-depth.

2. This post seems relevant now;

Massive: town, after reading his posts I can see nothing that makes me suspect that he is scum.
havingfitz: null, at this point in the game I have seen nothing to sway me either way

Massive read is odd. Kelbris doesn't apply the same logic to Fitz (and other null players or vice versa - Massive read should be null)

Kelbris town reads massive for the exact same reasoning that he used to null read havingfitz.

3. Strong Kop tell;

Do we really believe the hider claim? I mean doc, cop, hider, and vigilante a bit too overpowering? Me personally, believe that is too town sided personally.

I'm not fully sure anymore, tbh. I am going to have to think about this.

Kop expresses doubt in the hider claim because hider/doc/cop/vig is too strong. However, this argument is equally valid against the doctor claim, yet Kop doesn't express doubt in the doctor claim.

4. Last second effort to distance pre-lynch;

Let's see if I can get something started. VOTE: vote kop since massive and aristo have already indicated interest in going after him. and 2 days is nothing, wicked got monkey lynched in less time. though like i said, there really shouldn't be a deadline without a player in kop's slot, unless he's the one we pick to lynch. There's no question his slot has been scummy across 2 different players.

5. As I said before, Formerfish wouldn't have blatantly voiced his frustration with the vikingfan hammer if they were scum buddies. He is sensible enough to stay quiet in this situation.

[Wickedestjr]

Here is what I propose.

Vote: Kop

Lynch Kop.

If and when Kop flips scum, havingfitz can hide behind massive tonight. If and when havingfitz dies during the night, massive is confirmed scum the next day. If havingfitz survives, he is confirmed and is lynched instead.

[Wickedestjr]

No quickhammer on FF tells me he is the right choice.

This is a very weak argument considering if Formerfish is town, then one of the scum is voting for him right now - a quick hammer is impossible.

[Wickedestjr]

Two things I would like to point out regarding my last big post.

I. The case against massive is very strong. He's found something wrong with almost every aspect of it, but that's because he's scum trying to defend himself - his defense is awful.

And points #2 and #3, in particular, show some strong bias from the kelbris/Kop slot in favor of massive.

II. I know you guys will be skeptical about my point #4, but bear with me please. I found a game of vikingfan's where he was scum. It was a very long time ago, but not many games ago for vikingfan and I think it's worth considering: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=3269. In this game, vikingfan voted for townies the entire game until right before he got lynched on day 3 - he voted for his scum buddy. Looks awfully similar to this game. He was scum, got lynched on day 3, every vote was for a known townie until the final vote for Kop. I seriously don't think this is a coincidence.

[Wickedestjr]

I will also be V/LA this weekend. PLEASE vote for Kop and if you do vote for Formerfish, please don't lynch him before I get back (Monday afternoon/evening).

[Wickedestjr]

Mod: Request for extension on deadline for (a) Wickedest's VLA and (b) if you're really replacing Formerfish

Thirded. In a MyLo scenario, we really need to have everyone here.

Answering questions now.

[Wickedestjr]

Wickedest

: why does the interaction by vikingfan on Kop make Kop scum, but the interaction by Kop on vikingfan (see my ISO for post numbers, am on phone) have no effect on your read of Kop?

I think vikingfan bussed Kop and Kop bussed vikingfan. You're implying that those two ideas contradict each other, but they don't. I don't see why I can't believe both. This question makes no sense...

vikingfan's last-minute vote for Kop looks like an attempt to earn some town credit right before he's about to get lynched. If Kop is scum, then vikingfan was loyal to his partners for the entire game until he decided he had to bus. This series of town votes followed by a single bus at the end is exactly what he did in another game where he was scum.

Kop's vote for vikingfan does nothing to make me townread him - it never has. He was the first to vote for vikingfan on the day that he was lynched, but I had tried getting Viking lynched once or twice before then. It's not like Kop led the bandwagon here. Kop ignored vikingfan until the start of day 3 and then was quick to vote for him - it looks like he was (perhaps) told to bus the night before and he went with it.

[Wickedestjr]

There was no real need at the time for me to bus.

That's a great time to bus for town credit - when there's no need for you to.

What has changed Wicked, since this post? Now that you are trying to drive a wagon onto me, I've gone from decently strong town reads, to now possibly flipping scum.

By the end of day 4, I had decent town reads on everyone other than FA and massive. FA flipped town, so now I know that I was wrong about at least one of my town reads. I think you are the town read I was wrong about.

[Wickedestjr]

Scum have an opportunity early on D3 where they can railroad Randomidget for the failed vig shot; 899 pretty much blows that chance out of the water by outlining probably exactly what happened (which we only know now that Randomidget is confirmed town).

You act like the failed vig shot is a huge sign in favor of random-scum, but that's not true. random didn't even receive a vote for the first two pages and the first vote that he did receive was from havingfitz, who had already been calling him scum for the entire game. AND EVEN THEN, the lack of a kill wasn't even one of havingfitz's primary reasons for voting random. The day 3 random mislynch was not the low hanging fruit that you say it was.

899 is a huge leap considering people were telling him to shoot Kop and it feels more like Kop knows too much than that he genuinely figured it out.

The problem is that it's more than simple bussing. Viking's vote at the end of D3 is a throwaway vote; if you want to meta and say "well he voted a scumbuddy in another game," then kudos, but there's no other indication anywhere in the game that Vikingfan and Kelbris / Kop were buddies.

You are exactly right about viking's vote being a throwaway vote! He knew it wouldn't lead to a lynch, a very safe time to bus... It wasn't just 'a vote for a scum buddy'. It was a last minute bus that he knew wouldn't work. It's not just that he "voted a scum buddy in another game" it's that he voted for only town until it was clear he was going to get lynched, and then he cast a throwaway vote for a partner. The voting patterns are exactly the same and you are painting an unfair broader picture of it all.

If you want me to vote Kop, you're going to have to convince me that scum roleblocked Randomidget N2 and then decided that scum theater between Vikingfan and Kop was the play D3; and NOT to try and mislynch Randomidget.

Lol, I don't care about convincing you. You're scum with him. I'm trying to convince Aristo and havingfitz.

Roleblocking randomidget was the ONLY choice that you could have made. random was obviously going to shoot vikingfan or Kop, both of whom are scum.

Scum theater between vikingfan and Kop is not expected, but it's perfectly normal if scum are smart/tricky. Scum have already shown their ability to be smart/tricky by killing evilpacman/Saul on night 2 - a completely bizarre night kill, when I was a more popular town read and I was repeatedly pushing for viking's lynch.

[Wickedestjr]

Aristophanes, PLEASE unvote.

You can't deny Kop/kelbris's bias in favor of massive. They are partners.

[Wickedestjr]

No comment on my fitz read?

What's there to say? I agree with you, I already thought fitz was town.

UNVOTE:

I still think Fish is scum.

We can lynch Kop, I think they are buddies.

Fitz, hide behind Massive.

If you live, massive is cleared and it is FF scum.
You die, Massive scum.

How is that proposition?

Perfect, that's exactly what I proposed... But I'm not sure why you think massive and havingfitz are both town...

[Wickedestjr]

[Wickedestjr]

Trying to lynch one of my town reads while he has flaked is scummy as shit.

For the record, Mod said that the day was ending in (expired on 2015-06-28 22:55:05) regardless of Fish's presence.

However, I think this is a problem.

Mod:

Can we please get an extension until the Fish replacement can come in (at the very least just to vote for the other wagon)? If it weren't a MyLo/LyLo scenario, then I wouldn't care that much. But this is almost certainly MyLo and it's impossible to get a scum lynch in MyLo when a townie is gone.

[Wickedestjr]

Come on, you said you thought it was Kop/Fish. I think it's Kop/massive.

The plan that agreed on (literally yesterday) ensures a town win for both of those guesses. Lynching Fish is only a town win for your guess.

[Wickedestjr]

You speak so certain that fish is town. Only scum would know that.

Or I'm a very confident townie.

VOTE: wicked

I am unvoteable for today because I cannot be scum unless havingfitz is. So, if you wanted to lynch me, you'd have to vote for him first.

And massive as claimed doctor am I right?

And havingfitz as claimed hider am I right?

[Wickedestjr]

*sigh*

You're right.
VOTE: Kop

My reservation is that if it's not FF/Kop it's FF/Massive and thus, for me, FF is the better vote as he has the crossover.

Kop, don't be dumb.

There are only two ways this can go wrong.

1. There is scum in {Aristo, havingfitz, Wickedestjr}. - At this point, I strongly doubt that.
2. The day ends in a no lynch if the Mod doesn't allow Formerfish to get replaced first. - *fingers crossed* that would really stink.

[Wickedestjr]

I am not being dumb.

You're not dumb, but your vote for me is foolish if you're town. It is completely impossible for Fish and I to be scum together, yet you just switched your vote from him to me.

[Wickedestjr]

havingfitz says that he hid behind me on night 1. Hiders die when they try to hide behind mafia. So, if havingfitz is telling the truth, I cannot be mafia.

[Wickedestjr]

Thank you N!

Welcome back Aeronaut. Unless you think, in the next 29 hours, that you can sway half the town in a new direction - it's you or Kop today. Yes, it is MyLo and we do not

have

to lynch today, but havingfitz's hider claim serves as an investigation for tonight which we can only use if we lynch scum today. No lynch is simply not an option.

If Kop is scum and we lynch him, then havingfitz really should hide behind massive. I

still

believe that it's very unlikely their roles are both in this game.

[Wickedestjr]

r u srs

[Wickedestjr]

Bleh

GG scum.

Sorry town (especially Kop/massive).

[Wickedestjr]

Thanks for the game iknal and N!

We can't see the scum thread yet.

[Wickedestjr]

Nice hider claim havingfitz - I'll getcha back!

Aeronaut, you played phenomenally.

We should have mass claimed on day 4.

[Wickedestjr]

what would a mass claim day 4 have accomplished wicked? You bought the hider claim it seemed like to me.

If we mass claimed on day 4, then FA wouldn't have gotten lynched - we would have lynched between the two claims. Yes, I would have been tricked by havingfitz and pushed for a massive lynch. But even so, havingfitz would've been lynched on day 5. We would have made it to four man MyLo with only one scum left and it could have been different. If we had mass claimed on day 4, and havingfitz claimed VT, then massive would have been confirmed town - this also would have made it different. My scum read on Kop was largely based on my strong pre-assumption that massive was scum.

This isn't to discredit scum's win. You guys played well and earned it 100%. But I think this game shows that mass claim should happen the day before MyLo/LyLo.

Aristo, I'm also sorry for not listening to you yesterday.

[Wickedestjr]

I expected my doc claim to hold a lot more sway than it did (somehow) and thought it would be enough to conftown myself.

In hindsight, it should have. But once I thought I found a scum slip, I stuck to it and tried to justify all the things that (in reality) indicated you and Kop were town. I had a horrible case of confirmation bias this game... Never been so ignorant.

[Wickedestjr]

Happy Scumday Fitz!

Agreed w.r.t. that policy. Luckily it didn't matter in this case, but you never know.