Star Trek Deep Space Nine Season 1 Mafia(game over!)

[Thor665]

Well reading TAL just got a Smurfton harder... Welcome Thor.

Why would it get harder - you already have his posts and attitudes to consider, yeah?
Also, as far as I can tell I'm a named townie, so...y'know, practically confirmed town till *way* later into the game day unless I'm missing out on some really paranoid theory.

Hi everyone.
Who are we lynching today and why?

I am mildly in support of the Hider based fear lynch of CDB, for the record.

[Thor665]

Well reading TAL just got a Smurfton harder... Welcome Thor.

Why would it get harder - you already have his posts and attitudes to consider, yeah?
Also, as far as I can tell I'm a named townie, so...y'know, practically confirmed town till *way* later into the game day unless I'm missing out on some really paranoid theory.

Hi everyone.
Who are we lynching today and why?

I am mildly in support of the Hider based fear lynch of CDB, for the record.

Reads change based on data. Yeah the whole named townie come on...you are not conftown.

So you did already have a read on TAL then? Because there is no reason for that read to change simply because I am hard to read...unless I'm missing something?
I never said I was conftown - I said I was practically confirmed town till later in the game - do you disagree with that?
Also, why are you arguing things with me that I never claimed?

We are lynching Senator.

Okay.

Vote: Senator

Why?

Titus is being detrimental to town by letting scum skate by with minimal contents. Because they can hop on the wagon with no effort.

So you're saying Titus is obv. town then? Because this sounds like you're saying you know she's town, yes/no?

We. Should. Be. Pressuring. Zabing. And Kling. And Nero.

But instead people like to let Titus tunnel onto a clearly town piss.

Are you pressuring them? You don't appear to be.
Why are any of them scum? I could lynch any of them, but I don't know what the case on them is, so it's kind of hard to sheep you since I'm already sheeping a non-case wagon.

[Thor665]

LittleGumball has been prodded.

Just as a head's up, on the activity chart he is listed as a v/la until the 19th or so. So, methinks either you have to slide with that, or just replace him now.

[Thor665]

I would support replace.
18 days with no posts is BS, even in a large.

[Thor665]

I flip back and forth between maintaining neutrality wrt Titus' stubbornness and thinking she's just going to wait out the wagon. She's not obvtown in either case.

Okay...but when you complain that she's making it easy for scum to hide there is certainly an implication that you don't think she's scum.
So you think it's possible she's scum working to make it easy for other scum to hide, and ergo is scum - that's your current stance?

I presume you've read enough to have a general feel for the game.

Sure, presume away.

I posted somewhere back that I'm using my gut, some moderate scumtells, and meta.

Cool.
Would you like to explain the meta and moderate scumtells on the three of them?

[Thor665]

So who do you think we should lynch if not Senator?

[Thor665]

unvote senator

this was way too easy.

You're probably right, it was so easy.
So...wouldn't that make Senator town and at least one person voting him scum?
So...why aren't you voting one of them?
What are you doing?

his 180 on LQ (he was all for lynching LQ until we had to do it regardless of his alignment)

I really fail to follow how this is scummy.
Your logic is he was scum, pushing a mislynch, and then decided to hard reverse in order to garner towncred or something?

I posted somewhere back that I'm using my gut, some moderate scumtells, and meta.

Cool.
Would you like to explain the meta and moderate scumtells on the three of them?

^^^
@Senator - I *do* talk just to hear myself, because I think I am super sexy sounding. That said, could you field this question please? Unless that's too much to ask...in which case could you clarify that you're intentionally avoiding the question so that I can react appropriately to your dodge?

[Thor665]

Oh, you're a pisskop alt?

In that case - no, it was absolutely not enough because it was just a repetition of what you had ssaid that I had initially questioned.

What actions?
What meta?

Describe them - if you can...?

[Thor665]

Maybe I'm just being stupid, but I'm not following the issue there.

[Thor665]

Okay, so as far as I can grok the issue is thus;

Since the Beloved triggered via lynch or kill - for some reason not wanting to lynch him is pro-scum as then scum could kill him and get a second kill.
But, scum would get the same benefit from a lynch, yeah? In fact, a better advantage, as that would be 2 kills as opposed to one to trigger plus an additional kill.

So your argument is based off the idea that a lynch was the only pro-town play, yes?
I disagree with that logic and can understand other town disagreeing with it.
Did Senator defend his choice in a weird way?

PEdit - did we do a mass claim that I'm missing? Or is there some additional gimmick that happened to LQ after Day 3?

[Thor665]

Oh, you're a pisskop alt?

In that case - no, it was absolutely not enough because it was just a repetition of what you had ssaid that I had initially questioned.

What actions?
What meta?

Describe them - if you can...?

@Senator.

[Thor665]

@Senator - to be precise - I don't need your help to understand logic flaws from Titus. I *do* need your help to understand your own logic.

Work on that?

[Thor665]

Senator said he needed information to use his role, which is exactly why scum would want LQ alive. The longer LQ lived, the worse the game got. He Smurfs with Lylo as well.

I think I understand your issue, I find it pretty thin though.
This is your strongest read?

Nevermind that I only just recently said I wanted the info for myself. She keeps adapting her story

Would your role have benefited more by LQ being alive now, or dead and having caused a quick double night?

[Thor665]

Oh, you're a pisskop alt?

In that case - no, it was absolutely not enough because it was just a repetition of what you had ssaid that I had initially questioned.

What actions?
What meta?

Describe them - if you can...?

@Senator.

@Senator
x2

[Thor665]

I'll relax when a question of 'what's your case' is managed to be answered within ten minutes.
I find it little odd that you need to research why you suspect someone, I'll admit.
But, sure, do the iso research. I'll be around.

PEdit - I agree, you probably have games where you don't show a lick of work and people let you do that. I am not one of those people.

[Thor665]

Would your role have benefited more by LQ being alive now, or dead and having caused a quick double night?

I was hoping to flip him over D2. We have problems tying people to content because some of the players ran LQ through a screen wiring.

If you wanted to lynch him regardless - why oppose lynching him Day 1?

[Thor665]

well...
got nothing to add at moment

What are you planning to do to fix that problem?

[Thor665]

well...
got nothing to add at moment

What are you planning to do to fix that problem?

going to observe things a bit more

Who are your current top suspects?
I feel like you're trying to sit far too much on the sidelines - that makes me feel like you're scum or very weak town, and I am not fond of either.

I'm keeping my vote on Senator for a few reasons.

1.) If he's town, scum could have easily bandwagoned him by now and lynched him off.

2.) If he's scum, his lynch will show that people who were not ready to vote him until it was obvious he was going to be the lynch target to be possible scum.

[3] So he's either scum or will show where the scum should be.

I agree with #2, and thus the conclusion based off it (I'll call it #3).
What proof do you have for #1?

So with some strong presence of anti-town roles (beloved prince, worse than normal, miller) presumably the books are balanced.
One theory I have is Rumpelstiltskin. His post restriction made him a target to be looked at at least early. the character he was in had a couple other characters that were part of his group: Buck Bokai, an Alternative Jazdia.
They weren't inherently hostile in the episode, but their presence did cause danger. I could seem them being a scumgroup, I also feel he was on the wrong side of the fence regarding LQ's lynch.

.
.
.

and then I read that buck bocki was dead and is town. so back to the drawing board.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJxCdh1Ps48

What other thoughts do you have other than a thought you decided to shoot in the face halfway through presentation?
Do you have a top scumread?
Do you consider Titus or Senator more 'correct' in their debate?
Who do you think the Hider hid behind at the moment?

[Thor665]

@Narn - Want to wagon PeaceBringer with me?
Also, could you explain how the Senator wagon is "easy"? People keep saying this, and he's at L-5 or something right now, and only ever got to L-4 as far as I can tell...so...what was "easy" about it?

Unvote: Senator
Vote: Peacebringer

[Thor665]

@Pere - other than CDB, what are your reads of note?

[Thor665]

Don't have many. Got a townread on lickety, and he was so town that everyone had to lynch him.

I'll agree the iso skim I had on him looked pretty townish, so probably a look at the wagon will bear fruit...but, natch, that's true of any wagon on town Day 1, so...eh, whether or not it was a bit of an iffy lynch is besides the fact, really.

Pretty sure Nero is scum, but haven't tied him with anyone else just yet.

I have zero read on him - why is he scummy?

Leaning town on Titus, but that's always grain-of-salt read.

I currently lean that way also.
While we're at it - a much more solid town read on Nai-alphabet. You agree or disagree?

I think the Hider hid behind CDB, so he's scum.

I don't dislike that theory.

You are a slight townread based on Archmage.

I should be a slight town just based off my narf claim, really. But, sure.




@Dave - want to vote Peacebringer with me?

[Thor665]

It didn't help that out dead town gladiator fake-claimed Oracle and said the LQ role did not exist in the game.

And people wonder why I get snarky sometimes.

Pedit @Thor: depends on whether I like the case.

My case is "gut".
What case are you currently selling that is better than that?

[Thor665]

And LQ self voted too?
Oh people.

[Thor665]

He tried to defend crap-logic day1 about the Lickety wagon, so not giving townpoints to him yet.

If defending (or presenting) bad logic was a valid scumtell then this game would be soooo much easier as town wouldn't do it all the time.
But they do.
Are you serious about this as an issue with the slot considering his last handful of posts?

@Thor: Given how

some

people handle it when a thin circumstantial case is presented, I now prefer to line up some ducks first.

So...basically you don't support the case I'm pushing because it lacks 'evidence'.
Okay.
But you also have no case you're pushing.
Okay.
Are you doing anything to form a case? Because if the answer is 'no' then I'm no longer 'okay' with you - you feel like you're justifying doing nothing. Why do you appear to be doing nothing? If you're doing 'something' then what is it? Because you should either have a top suspect or be willing to push a townread's top suspect, or be able to explain why you're not doing one of those two things while "observing".
Whassup?

[Thor665]

Actually, willful ignorance of a logical argument has been a scumtell to me before.

I certainly agree that willful ignorance is an issue and note your stated awareness of uncertainty about Narn's level of expected game logic. Seems to just back my stance that your scum read there is strange at best or suspect at worst. I am serious about my town read there though, like, he is not ringing as scum at all to me.

[Thor665]

I don't have a town read on CBD but I think the "Max hid behind him" case is a pretty big stretch.

vote:Peacebringer

lets get more content out of this guy.

I find the CDB thing a pretty reasonable stretch, myself. The only other stance is 'the Hider was played poorly' which is a reasonable stance to take, but the CDB issue has to be at least just as likely methinks.

I appreciate the vote support, but I take it that means you don't really have other scumreads of note. Do you have any townreads of note for me to consider? How do you feel about my townread on Narn (and, to a lesser extent, Senator and Titus)?

I have a case that I'm not pushing yet because you have a history of whacking people who have bad cases.
It will have to wait until I have some time to put together evidece.

Evidence bores me.
The point of evidence is to convince people to vote your way.
The point of a case is to present a read with a clearly stated reason.
I'd much rather hear the latter and wait for the former than wait for both for no apparent reason other than fear of me calling your case bad (hint: 'evidence' won't change my value call on a case, so...)

Unless you're ok with it potentially being crap? Our track record in games together indicates you're not. I don't enjoy turbo mislynches. In particular when I'm the lynchee.

I suspect that I did not lynch you for having a bad case in the past. I could see me lynching you for having scummy logic - but further effort spent to make the logic look bigger will not change whether I see it as scummy or townish. If you think it will then do what you must - but, for the record, I am *far* more likely to lync people for sidelining and not pushing than I am for presenting cases I think are weak.
For instance, I have called Titus' case on Senator weak - I have not called Titus scum.
I am pretty sure this proves your current presented fears as false in regards to your understanding of how I play the game.

[Thor665]

Masquerade.

Yes, we played together in that game and I pushed your lynch while saying you were lying about your beliefs - not that your case was bad, but that you were lying.
So...as far as I can tell that proves my point.

Got a case yet?

And apparently the answer is 'no, going to sheep a case that hasn't changed since it was first presented'
Meh.

[Thor665]

And apparently also suggest I'm "on to something" even though you refused to sheep me earlier.

[Thor665]

eh, uncertain of the CBD voters-
here is a different interesting direction

vote RIP

What do you not like about the CDB voters? Besides you and Dave I was pretty much a fan of the wagon. What am I missing?

revisiting the zabing run up would also be worthwhile.

Why is that? Is Zabing a strong town read for you?

@Klingoncelt - what is your take on Peacebringer and on CDB and why are you not voting either of them in preference of sitting, alone, on the RIP wagon, a wagon you are not trying to convince people to join?

[Thor665]

Peri and Narn are giving me the heebies...

I have Narn as town and no issue with Pere - what am I missing here?

Titus is pretty null to me. What do you see there?

The current Titus issue appears to be based around the concept that Titus is pushing derp logic.
I see no evidence that Titus knows better than the derp logic, and thus tend to believe that she is pushing something she legit believes in. The honesty of that vibes slightly town to me, though I am quite comfortable with you calling it null.

Not a RIP or Zabing fan.

Outside of their general lurkishness, is there a reason for this?

What do you think of Sinsun?

The slot has done nothing of note since I arrived. I'd support lynching it in the abstract if people began pushing a wagon there.
That said, I'd support a lot of wagons, thi town is paranoid fail as far as actually pushing wagons - we really need some wagons and people are just sitting around doing "observation" it's kind of annoying and dumb, but I've learned that there's no point in explaining to people how their play is dumb, because then they just get pissy and still sit there and do nothing, but then use my annoyance as an excuse. So now I'm being nice/passive aggressive so at least when they are sucking they have to accept the guilt of that onto themselves.
I would really and very strongly advocate that all the people doing spit-all hop on the CDB or Peacebringer wagons though - at least one of those should be exciting to people.

Thor, how would you play hinder (in the abstract)?

On the presumption that my role tranfers information based off my survival/not survival and therefore my sole purpose beyond scumhunting is to make it very clear who I hid behind.
The fact we are *debating* who he hid behind suggests general fail from our Hider. I, personally, favor the CDB thing, but there's a reason I'm not voting CDB at the moment and it's because the crumb was not a very good one.

I've been taking notes, they're not nearly complete yet, but from what little I have, CDB leans Town.
PeaceBringer's on my list to go through later tonight - I have trouble reading him.

How long have you been in this game that you're still needing to take notes to figure out reads?

RIP is definitely playing very strangely.

Scummy strange, 'derp, hat on mah head!' strange, or 'not my usual style' strange.
This comment is of little help to me.

Why do I not encourage others to help me build that wagon? Because usually when I call out for sheep I get mislynched. (I'm one of those that are always read as Scum regardless of alignment. ) I'll say my piece and if others agee they can climb on board. If they don't I'll make note of it and FoS them. For later.

There are two key parts to playing a good town game.

1. Spotting scum.
2. Lynching scum.

You're basically claiming to be doing only one of these.
Whoop-dee-doo, that's not going to help us win even if you're right. So what's the point at that stage?

I am going out of station from tomorrow, Can someone give a quick insight on what's going on here because I am certain that I wont have time at this moment to catch up this game but when I return I surely will go back and get some understanding. So, anyone is dear enough to give me an insight?

Here is your insight - get a vote in play and stop doing nothing.
Here are some good options for who to vote;

1. CDB - because you think the Hider hid behind him.
2. Peacebringer - for twigging Thor's gut and being otherwise not helpful.

Both of those are very valid wagons.
Pick one.
Quite frankly, you should have picked one before going on this odd pseudo-v/la.
I don't even understand what you're doing to help town at this stage.

[Thor665]

Okay?

[Thor665]

A gentleman never says.

[Thor665]

Revisit means run him up again... he got off scott free- happens a lot around here... it is stupid

Why was he worth the initial run up?
Who do you think derailed his wagon?

why do you have Narn town and no issue with pere?

Narn town due to his readslist.
Pere as null because he hasn't done anything alignment indicative that I have seen - do you see something I should pay attention to?

No seriously, I have known Thor the longest and he knows my game well. In the last game we played I read him totally wrong. So I am reluctant to put my thoughts out until they can be clear to me.

But not reluctant to claim the conclusion? Meh.
This is kinda dumb and assuredly a time waster - what are your value calls on CDB vs. Peacebringer - that Senator wagon is dead in the water. Move.

what do you consider helpful and how are others fitting into that helpful mode?

Scumhunting and proactive vote movement.
Others are doing it - you are not.

How is interaction, say for example, different than Narn and Pere who have done nothing, really?

Narn has allowed me to townread him - Pere is hard pushing a read.

Or is my "nothing" more prone to wig you out?

Your nothing is absolutely not in the same ballpark as theirs.

2 more people I would say have done nothing RIP and Zabing done compared to me who you think has done nothing?

I agree, both of them are worthy of wagons. I don't understand how I implied different at any stage in this game.

and what have you done.

Offered clear reads and pushed a prime scumspect clearly.

YOu have not lynched scum

Naturally - no one has. What of it?

and right now you are just defending folks who are randomly doing nothing and pointing at others.

I agree - I am offering town and scum reads and making a stand on them.

Sure, it is how you play the game, but you are presenting hypocritical arrogance if you are town. If you are scum, please, by all means, continue.

I don't think you and I agree on what constitutes hypocrisy.

Whoops. Hang on. Investment in this game has been pretty low since I realised the depth of the Smurfshow. Can't promise being caught up tonight but I'll aim for some contributions tomorrow.

Are you trying to claim scum?
It's working on me, if you are.

If I don't know a player (there are several in this game I don't know) I'll ISO not only this game, but go into their profile and search through everything they've done here. I continually update their in-game ISOs as the game progresses. In a game this size I'm lucky if I can get to half the players.

What players have you completed and what are your reads on them?

That's your cross to bear. If you agree with my reasoning, jump on the wagon. Or not.

I don't think you remotely understand my issue or how your play is anti-town in my opinion.

[Thor665]

Even if we take these as being equally likely, it still means CDb is the best lynch today, right?

In a statistical vacuum of reads - assuredly yes.

@Thor, you trying to say I must vote CDB or PB does not make me want to vote either of them.

Okay...are you arguing that your Senator push is going "anywhere at all"?
Because it's pretty clear that it isn't. Which means my *core* point of "your vote is being useless" is provably true. At that stage I suppose you can ignore my value call on what the two most viable wagons are - but it is *STILL* intrinsic upon you to get off your duff and do something rather than to ragdoll, yeah?

What do you think of this?

I fail to follow how only playing in Mishmash games and being a "n00b" precludes his ability to be aware of players.
I already fail to have a town vibe towards Zabing so...I guess you have encouraged thaat, but I also hardly see a slam dunk of a case either - I think the case on CDB is stronger, and I think my gut on Peacebringer is functionally equally valid.

[Thor665]

Since I joined the game 4 days ago there have been a grand total of;

10 votes placed.
2 naked unvotes.
All done by a total of 7 different players.

There are still 17 players alive in this game.
4 players aren't even voting right now.
We have only 9 days till deadline.
The largest wagon is currently at L-5
3 separate players have claimed they wish to see multiple wagons this day phase.
An additional 2 expressed issue with how there was only one wagon to analyze.

I am just going to go out on a limb and suggest that there are potential solutions out there at the moment.
Hint: get your vote in play/consolidate your vote.
Also, if we don't adjust pace it will assuredly be a deadline lynch - is everyone else okay with that? I think those usually end sloppily and not good for town - of course if no one else has an issue with it we can continue doing what we're doing, but if you don't think that's a good idea I would point you to my Hint above.

[Thor665]

@Mod - we also have multiple players in 10+ day absences. I fully understand that replacements at this stage are an issue, but...seriously, they're not playing the game. It's kind of uncool. Feel free to make me a DayVig - I'll sort this business in short order.

The only players that are violating their posting requirements are zabing12, who will be replaced soon, and Jamerius, who has been prodded.

[Thor665]

Anyway, this whole day is a cluster____ like yesterday.

No - it isn't.
What this day *is* is a lurk fest.
You are part and parcel of that problem as far as I can tell since your vote is currently on Senator (a dying/dead wagon) and you are complaining about RIP more than you are complaining about how the Senator wagon has literally shredded to pieces.

Would you be in support of either a Peacebringer lynch or a CDB lynch? I consider both of them fairly viable wagons at this stage and both are drastically in need of more support.
Which do you like better? Could/would you vote one of them? If not - I would at *least* suggest a move to RIP, a player multiple other players have expressed issue with and who, unlike Senator, has not had multiple people call him townish.

Just a thought.

[Thor665]

Thor, do you have a town read on Sen?

If Sen is Senator - then yes. I already stated as such.

THor I don't play the way you do and I am not going to go point by point.
I have to go back and get a reread on the zabing situation.
I play differently. Differently is not scum, it is just different.

Good plan, it wouldn't look good for you. But I will accept that as quiet acceptance that I'm not hypocritical and that you are indeed not doing anything.
I guess I look forward to your eventual read on a lurkflake slot?
Different is not assured scum, I agree.
But playing scummy and calling it different is not actually a valid defense of scummy play. Your play is not pro-town play, therefore it is valid to have issue with it.

Pere as null because he hasn't done anything alignment indicative that I have seen - do you see something I should pay attention to?

I don't like the feel of his game. I have been in a few games with him. Just something different here.

So 'gut'.
Meh, I don't feel it - not going to support a wagon there at this moment. Hope that clarifies my stance on Pere for you.

[Thor665]

8 days till deadline.

The only vote move since yesterday is SimSun voting me for trying to direct votes.

Just saying.

[Thor665]

Actually, I forgot about RIP and Nero hopping to Zabing the lurkflake.
I'm actually okay with that wagon move.

People should still be consolidating a lot more than they are currently.

[Thor665]

Do you think all theory 7 scum are aligned?
Because otherwise I don't really grok your issue.

[Thor665]

Eh, actually, don't bother answering that question - I townread you now and I don't need the headache.

[Thor665]

Why do you Townread Sinsun?

Town paranoia whilst selling the idea of seven aligned scum.

scummy is a pejorative with little meaning

Agreed, it is still the entire basis of the game we are playing.

[Thor665]

Reading everything from the start of Day 3, will put conclusions into a longer post. Just quoting this because it'd fuck up the formatting if I saved it for that post:

If you have something that speaks stronger than this post about who the Hider picked to investigate, then please give it. Otherwise, it's WAYYYYY too obvious he hid behind you.

Two deaths on Night 1, one of them a Hider
One death on Night 2

I feel like you think this is a knockout - but I fail to see how it is.
Whether or not there is one scum group shooting does not actually suggest the Hider didn't hide behind scum.
What am I missing here?

[Thor665]

Also I never said they were all aligned, I said anti-town. So interesting choice of words there Thor.

If you don't think they're aligned then what is your actual fear?

[Thor665]

Also I never said they were all aligned, I said anti-town. So interesting choice of words there Thor.

If you don't think they're aligned then what is your actual fear?

It's only logical for anti-town to want town cop/doc gone as soon as possible, so a mutual temporary alliance to eliminate them is not hard to see the possibility of. One side knows it isn't their guy being lynched and the other side knows it isn't theirs, so they're willing to lynch them off.

The last sentence makes sense, I'll just presume that is your answer.
You're being silly.

[Thor665]

RIP and CDB are tied right now.

Unvote: Peacebringer
Vote: CDB

Now they are not.

5 days left.

[Thor665]

The RIP wagon should probably also expand on their reasons for voting him and (though it will freak Sim out) advocate for people to move votes there.

@Klingon
@Nero

As the two least scummy votes on there, methinks this duty falls to you, as I expect nothing much from your co-voters (they may feel free to prove me wrong, however, I like surprises)

I would also love to see someone offer up a hammer intent on CDB so we have some time to assess it prior to deadline. Let's see, we have 4 lurksacks who are not voting - no help.

@Simsun - what's your read on CDB (and, for that matter, RIP)? Your Jamierus wagon is actually sadder than the vote on me, because at least you kind of had a unique-ish reason to push me. I am pretty sure Jamierus is being pushed for lurk, which is hardly a shocking and new thing in this thread (As even you outlined in your case on me) Also, as you may have noticed, you have zero support. You should at least offer views on the top wagons, even if you're unwilling to offer hammer intent. Please and thank you.

[Thor665]

Yes, vote me to 'compromise' with five days before deadline just after I catch up and get fully engaged again. That doesn't look like a calculated attempt to off me before I say something sensible at all.

Well if you're caught up, you can say something sensible.

I kind of agreed with this on first read, but on second read, not so much.
I'll agree he's not saying anything groundbreaking or sheep-worthy...but I don't really think he's saying stuff that lacks sense and he does seem to at least be offering a few reads.
Am I missing something?

[Thor665]

vote cdb. RIPs always something like this

go metadive

Do you think RIP is townish?
Or are you just defending him from the specific case of "seems to suck for contributions"?

@CDB - you have had a hammer intent posted against you and posted since then without claiming. Was this intentional? I'm fine with you if you'd prefer to not claim prior to being hammered, i just want to make sure that's your goal.

Also - any changes to your last read list? Or is it still solid at this stage?

[Thor665]

I think RIP is a bad lynch for this game. Weaker case

Is it? I kind of disagree - honestly I find it interesting he won out while my Peacebringer wagon faltered and died with a more active push effort behind it. You don't find that interesting case-wise? I'm marginally tempted to flip him on a pet theory of Peacebringer being the opposite alignment of him. It's not like it would gamble much town scumhunting prowess.

[Thor665]

Opinions on wagons always matter.

What is yours on CDB at the moment?

[Thor665]

It's that missing Vig kill that has me confused.

What Vig kill were you expecting and what Night was it missing from?

[Thor665]

There was only one kill Nights 1 & 2, assuming that Maxwell hid N1 (and I think he did.) Now assuming that the Mafia made the kills, where are the Vig kills? Surely there's a Vig, maybe a PGO, possibly a 3rd Party in a game this size. Why only 1 kill both Nights? Something doesn't add up here. It's bugging me.

I have been in Larges with limited kills.
Also, quite frankly, what you're arguing here is a viable reason to argue for a SK or a second scum team just as much as to argue for a Vig.
that you went Vig as first and only is kind of unsettling. I intentionally use that word and not scummy, because I'm not sure if it's scummy or not, but it reads weird to me. Let's drop this because of the two alternatives I can see one is good and one is derptastic, and I can't figure out how to properly address it at this point.

You say you vibe town on CDB, but you seem to agree that it's a 50/50 for who Max hid behind - wouldn't that make CDB a fairly smart lynch choice unless you solid read him as town?

[Thor665]

CDB, reads please. Like full on wall reads. We are near deadline.

Klingon, You're willing to hammer before people read the claim?

So to clarify - you still think he's scum, but are worried people will derp hammer him too soon - yeah?

I just ... I need you to be sane in this game, Thor, because I think you're town and I have little-to-no faith in a huge chunk of this playerlist. Smurfing read what I'm writing, OK?

Dude - I asked if your list was still solid. I read it. Excuse me to all high hell for being of the opinion that reads can change within 3 pages - because they can. Stop the drama, it annoys me.

You realise that, if Max died because he targeted me, you'd still have to explain why scum shot Saint, right?

We have to "explain" that regardless of whether we think Max hid behind you - so it was either a Vig or an odd scum kill shot choice. That's what it is and it has *nothing* to do with clearing you.
Why are you acting like it does?

Unless you think Max didn't hide behind anyone and got nightkilled.

If he did this then I am offended by his play.
I don't think that happened though. Do you?

Then you have a Night 2 with only one death to explain.

Which will likely be easy to do as I am willing to bet there is at *least* one kill preventing role in the game.
Why are you acting like this would be difficult to believe?

[Thor665]

Thor, FFS, context. Davesaz specifically said that his vote stayed on me because he couldn't explain why scum shot Saint. I was pointing out that someone shot Saint and, until evidence otherwise is apparent (i.e. More than one non-hider death in a night), we ought to assume that it was scum, therefore Saint being shot is not a reason to maintain a vote on me because Saint got shot whether or not Max hid behind me. The 'didn't hide' thing was to show that implausible things have to be true for his reason to make sense.

His comment literally lacked any teeth at all as far as an attack on you - if I'd been you, and town, I'd have been asking why he was soft distancing from his read on me. Not debating a silly point that doesn't even suggest you're scum by arguing another silly point that doesn't suggest you're town.

But I am serious - do you think your raised issues remotely damage his stance if he thinks scum not killing a Miller somehow suggests you're scum? Because your defense does nothing to suggest your town, and it is a defense post, yeah?

Forgive me for getting angry about the reads list thing, I suppose - an early start on little sleep and a lot of a cold plus gamestate equals cranky - but the fact that I spoke to a changing read on Titus should have made it clear that I'd say when reads change within three pages of a list.

I will agree that you indicated a read had changed and that I, later, asked you if any of your reads had changed that you wanted to clarify prior to death.

You are slightly selling me on Titus.
Why do you have Peacebringer as town - is it due to scumreading RIP or is he town free of that interaction?

[Thor665]

So I agree with CDB that he is "slightly selling" me on you being scum and suddenly I'm being weird in how I'm interacting with him because I'm not calling everything he says a lie and that makes CDB less scummy to you?

Tell me more.

[Thor665]

Pretty much. You have been all over popular decisions with no depth.

I don't think that's true. I've pressed two cases - CDB and PeaceBringer. I created the Peacebringer wagon. So...at worst you have me at 50% popular, yeah? Meanig I'm 50% non-popular, right?

You're not treating CDB like he's a scumread. You could get to me/CDB as buddies with the same posting (still wrong) but you're being far to friendly and open to someone you're scumreading.

How am I being "too friendly and open" exactly?
I agree that I'm discussing reads with him, and do not appear to be 100% convinced he's scum.
I fail to see how that makes me scum. Nor how, even if you think it does, why it translates to a RIP vote rather than a Thor vote.

[Thor665]

What are your thoughts of Klingon wanting to hammer before the claim is reviewed?

That he is treating him as a 100% scumread.
Which you find scummy that I'm not, and scummy that he is.

[Thor665]

Thor, you also were willing to go onto Senator with no reason and left when it wasn't popular.

I disagree with both the timeline (I think I was amongst the earliest, if not the first, Senator town callers) and also with my motivation for voting him.
But that moves your examples to...2 "popular votes" as long as we ignore the lengthy non-popular vote?

Either you scumread him and note his last reads are must to save himself or you townread him and listen. You're picking scumread and listen which does not compute.

It's what I always do - because if you listen you get them to talk, and the purpose is to get them to talk regardless of alignment.

Klingon is worse but we are at deadline lynch. Given you plus Senator plus Klingon, I am voting RIP.

But the only reason you're townreading CDB is based off of me and Klingon being scum, right?

What are your thoughts of Klingon wanting to hammer before the claim is reviewed?

That he is treating him as a 100% scumread.
Which you find scummy that I'm not, and scummy that he is.

Nah, she's shutting off communication before evidence is reviewed. It's not just a checkbox to get a claim. We actually discuss it.

I agree - you are calling me initiating open conversation with someone I am calling scum to be scummy and calling Klingon's desire to shut down communication and aggressively lynch someone she's calling scum scummy.

I will admit that sounds insane on your part, but I think we're saying the same things, yeah?

[Thor665]

You're confused by me, Titus? I'll try to clarify.

Klingon is scum for wanting a hammer on CDB before claim discussion.
Thor is scum for his playing too nice and not treating CDB like a scumread.

I am calling this illogical.
If A is true than B is not, and vice versa.

I am trying to help analysis of the claim and analysis of CDB's reads - you are calling that 'too nice'.
Klingon is trying to shut it down and just lynch him - you are calling that 'too harsh'.

Meaning, apparently, you think the only town path is some odd middle of the road wherein you don't listen to anything the scum player says and.or don't ask abou tit - but also sit around and wait for other people to weigh in before clarifying that you are content to hammer a scum read who just claimed VT.
And, also, this makes CDB townish.

I find that really illogical, and you do not appear to be addressing my issue at all - if you have feel free to quote it. I must have missed it.

[Thor665]

Doing it where he says his scumread persuaded him of something yet not calling it distancing or bussing is simultaneously stating CDB is town AND scum.

I wasn't aware that I'd claimed Daycop who already knew CDB's alignment.
You're basically accusing me of not being certain of an alignment prior to a flip - last I checked that should be a null to town tell, yeah?

[Thor665]

Doing it where he says his scumread persuaded him of something yet not calling it distancing or bussing is simultaneously stating CDB is town AND scum.

I wasn't aware that I'd claimed Daycop who already knew CDB's alignment.
You're basically accusing me of not being certain of an alignment prior to a flip - last I checked that should be a null to town tell, yeah?

If you were actually displaying that uncertainty, maybe. You aren't. You're full steam ahead lynch CDB.

You are right, besides me conversing with him and assessing his reads in an open way to the point you're suggesting I have cognitive dissonance due to not treating him as confirmed scum - I am absolutely just full steam ahead on him.

[Thor665]

This looks like misrep.

Are you calling it a misrep or not?
Because I am calling it as very much what you are saying, so if it's a misrep I am endorsing it again, and twice more.

[Thor665]

You are right, besides me conversing with him and assessing his reads in an open way to the point you're suggesting I have cognitive dissonance due to not treating him as confirmed scum - I am absolutely just full steam ahead on him.

@Titus - the above is too complicated for you to understand?

[Thor665]

I'll break it down for you.

1. You are saying that I am full steam on CDB being scum.
2. Except you admit that I am talking to him like he might be town and/or that I consider him town.
3. You are then calling me scum for doing 2. while believing 1.
4. You fail to prove 1. at any point or stage, and ignore that 2. actually suggests that 1. is not true, and has never been true, and you have no reason to believe 1. except by making it up to make me look bad.

Make sense now?

[Thor665]

I'll break it down for you.

1. You are saying that I am full steam on CDB being scum.
2. Except you admit that I am talking to him like he might be town and/or that I consider him town.
3. You are then calling me scum for doing 2. while believing 1.
4. You fail to prove 1. at any point or stage, and ignore that 2. actually suggests that 1. is not true, and has never been true, and you have no reason to believe 1. except by making it up to make me look bad.

Make sense now?

4 is utter gibberish.

One is proven by you not moving off of lynching CDB and insisting he is scum.
Two is admitted by you.
Three is accurate.

What do you think I am saying in 4?
Walk me through it slowly so I understand where I'm losing you.

#1 is not proven by me still supporting a lynch. You can support a lynch and not be convinced that you are 100% right...unless I'm missing something?

[Thor665]

add in mod allowing players with extended VLAs...

Seeking replacement. I just replaced one player today already, and I am enforcing the one post every three days rule, which is all I can do as mod.I have actively replaced 5 players already, so I'm not sure what more you would have me do.

I will say I actually agree with his issue.
Taking a v/la of an entire day phase except for the last day is displeasurable in a player when the point of the game is based off reading interactions.

[Thor665]

I certainly support that, I am vaguely praying she did not know she was taking that trip, otherwise I am rather miffed at her also.

I swear there used to be a movement based around modkilling habitual lurkers. Back in the day I found it draconian, but my older and more biter self sees the appeal now.

[Thor665]

* The CDB situation is weird... there's bad play there either way, and I'm not sure what to think of that. We don't have any way of knowing who goofed up, and I'm not sure we should be basing a wagon on bad play when we don't know who made the bad play.

Isn't that an exact description of why he should be lynched? Especially ASAP? Especially with a VT claim?

As a player, he doesn't seem as scummy now that he's doing things . Sins doom and gloom about scum trying to lynch an active player is all kinds of crazy and I'm going back and forth between manipulative scum and '15 join date that doesn't know how to play.

I went with the latter. It seems to hold far more water.
He strikes you as secretly manipulative?

[Thor665]

* The CDB situation is weird... there's bad play there either way, and I'm not sure what to think of that. We don't have any way of knowing who goofed up, and I'm not sure we should be basing a wagon on bad play when we don't know who made the bad play.

Isn't that an exact description of why he should be lynched? Especially ASAP? Especially with a VT claim?

Not necessarily if the goof up was scum killing a miller and CDB really is a VT. If that's what indeed happened, then all we really gain by lynching him is another green flip. And yes, I recognize that there is some info we get from that, but, I'd rather use the time we have to lynch people that have actually behaved like scum, and I just don't see that in this case.

I will agree that there is a chance that CDB is town (though this makes me scum, just ask Titus) but I fail to see or grok how that chance is any worse than the chance anyone has to be town at this stage. The issue is that the Hider thing is an issue, and it's a perfectly functional lynch other than that. Your case on Simsun. for instance, is based off derp play and OMGUS. I don't even accept either as particularly clear scumtells, so when I look at that vs. a lurker lynch in RIP, and a Hider check in CDB - I don't see a lot of particular win glowing from any of the wagons, but I know which makes more basic strategic sense to me.

He strikes you as secretly manipulative?

I think scum would be perfectly able to yell out "oh there's scum on the CBD wagon and Ima lynch from it!" Do you not think he is capable of such? Why?

That isn't what you initially accused him of. You accused him of intentionally playing badly in misrepresenting the quality of a wagon in order to make that call.
I do not see him as playing cunning on that level - no.
If you think he's just scum trying to avoid voting a lynch wagon, I could possibly get behind that idea, but he seemed perfectly willing to help lynch LQ, so I'm not sure that makes sense to then get gunshy at this stage unless you think the leading wagon is a buddy, in which case let's lynch CDB anyway.

[Thor665]

The three days till deadline does suggest you need to work it in hyperdrive if you wish to work it though.

[Thor665]

The three days till deadline does suggest you need to work it in hyperdrive if you wish to work it though.

I just got into this game, and I've hardly played with anyone here. I don't think I have the charisma to pull off something like that right now. That said, I still believe my vote is in the best place right now, since I don't really like either of the wagons. I'll keep watching/reading, and if someone can convince me that lynching one of the two wagon targets is the best play, I will re-consider.

This post is a cop out.

1. You don't think you can advance your wagon of choice.
2. You don't like any of the current active wagons.
3. So you're going to sit, immobile, on your wagon - not selling it, but inviting others to sell their wagons to you.



Look, if you think your wagon is actually good then sell it. Fuggin' sell it. I don't care if you're about as charismatic as the love child of MoI and Majiffy after a weekend bender. It is your wagon, you see scum, you need to make that clear, you need to tell people about it, it is on *you* and only you to make things happen. Worse case? You'll be proven right and nothing will change...which is exactly the best case scenario if you sit on your thumbs doing nothing, so you're risking nothing by at least giving enough of a fig to try.

Second off, if you dislike the other wagons, why in the world are you asking to be sold on them? That makes no sense. Either you are receptive to the wagons - in which case say so. Or you are not, in which case say that. But to say both? It makes you sound like a mop. Ready to be pushed around and soak up whatever dreck someone feels like shoving your face into. Is that what you are? A mop? Because if you're a mop what the hell is this solo vote gak? You either have opinions or don't, and both are okay in a general sense, but don't roar like a lion when you're a mop, and don't try to soak up stuff with your mane if you're a lion. Be what you are - and the first thing to do is figure out what the hell you are.

Thirdly - I literally just went into an opinion on your wagon, and my wagon,a nd even the RIP wagon - why not respond to that at the very least? I mean, you literally just asked for some opinions - and I gave you some. Yet you don't even talk to me about what was offered. So do you want to talk over stuff at all? Or if you do are you needing it in a different format? And if so - it's on you to clarify the format you need.

Fourthly - I lied when I said I wouldn't get annoyed this game. Trying to be sit back is hard as hell. I am continually bewildered by the path of site meta at the moment.

[Thor665]

Then stop talking to him - I have, it cuts down on a lot if that's your actual goal.

[Thor665]

Because CDB hasn't done anything actively scummy. The ONLY case against him is some weird post that may or may not be a crumb. That's literally the only case against him. I don't like strictly associative cases.

It's not an associative tell, it's a Hider theory.
Basically the Hider did one of two things.

1. Hid behind a claimed Miller.
2. Hid behind scum.

If 2 - the *only* likely crumb is CDB.

So, basically, it's a 50/50 scum chance on a hunch. Which is actually shockingly stronger than your case on Simsun or the case on RIP, or the case on Klingon, by a rather large degree.
No?

Do you mind helping me out here? Why is she obvscum? If you have oulined the case before, I'd be ok with a link to that.

You mean besides the fact she wanted to kill CDB the second he claimed without discussion?

1. Klinong actually didn't do what you (and others...Titus was the starter as I recall) are saying she did.
2. Even if she did - what "discussion" is going to happen from a VT claim? A counter VT claim? I fail to follow the issue. Basically if anyone is going to unvote after a VT claim then they're pretty suspect to have been voting in the first place.

[Thor665]

Both sides of that argument seem silly to me, so I don't consider it as mattering nor worth discussion. It was an iffy move regardless of your alignment in my opinion, and also I don't think your crumbing looked like an attempt to draw NK attention, which is the only pro-town move of it. I'm more than willing to accept you're Bashir. I'm less willing to accept that it is remotely alignment relevant.

[Thor665]

I buy the bashir claim.
looking at the other options.

Why is Bashir town?

[Thor665]

The CDB wagon is still a thing people.
I have no idea why people want to force another claim after unvoting a push to a VT claim - that is the definition of someone you lynch after said claim.

[Thor665]

No Thor, it's not. When people believe said claim and he's pro-town unlike you, we keep him alive.

I agree that people seem to believe that he's Bashir.
I do too.
I am not sure what that has to do with alignment.

Als, i am very much unsure what that has to do with VT being believable as a claim or not.

And I am even less sure why "active" is being taken as a town tell - as that's all you keep pointing out about his "townishness".

The wagon is over, we're not lynching CDB, suck it up. You got served on your fail attempt to lynch a townie.

Okay?

I have no idea why people want to force another claim after unvoting a push to a VT claim

I have no idea why you can't seem to see that there are a number of us town reading him, and are reluctant to vote what we feel is likely another mis-lynch.

I can't believe that you fail to notice we had him at L-1 with a *double* hammer intent.
Meaning it didn't matter that other people didn't like the case - what mattered is the people who decided him claiming Bashit and VT somehow made him more town than prior to that moment.

[Thor665]

ChannelDelibird(8) - displaced, PerigrineV, Narninian, davesaz, Titus, Senator, Thor665, RIP

[L-1]

We had this ^^^
Plus both Nero *and* Klingon with hammer intent.

Then he claimed Bashir and VT - whoop-dee-doo, as though any of that means anything to his alignment.

Now we have this;

KlingonCelt(4) - Senator, Sinsun1, Titus, RIP (though it's starting to shift back to RIP now)

Meaning the following players;

Senator
RIP
Titus

Decided that "Bashir" or "VT" somehow made CDB more town.
That's screwy.

[Thor665]

For someone who asked me whether any of my reads had changed, Thor, I don't know why you're not asking about whether or not people felt that my play

after

my claim has changed their minds rather than the claim itself.

Literally two of them have already claimed the claim as a reason to town read you.

Also, presuming you are town, what do you think of you being obligated to claim, and then people turning around and wanting a claim after yours.
Do you think your claim looked townish?
Do you think your play post claim looked townish?

[Thor665]

Nope. CDB is still scum. I rather have Klingy lynched over RIP, and CDB over Klingon

You sat on other votes for some time if that's your belief.

[Thor665]

Didn't you just change because you suddenly noticed you thought RIP looked scummy at some point post claim?

Yeah - you should be on the list too.

[Thor665]

I'm town and I'm a conditional tracker.
Tall need to unvote ASAP.
If I live to end of day 4 I'll get a track ability.

What happened to having a power tonight?

Existence of beloved prince supports the claim

It does? Explain then, I'm totally missing it.

How do you read RIP, Thor?

Lurksack - I've said this before.
If I was scum reading him I would have voted him ages ago.
If I was town reading him I'd be calling the case bad as opposed to ineffable.

1) What a silly question. I remain irritated with the fact that it got to my needing a claim based on what little there was, but I certainly prefer seeking someone else's claim, someone who might actually be scum other than myself, whom I know is town and am therefore incentivised against lynching, than ... what? Rolling over and saying 'I claimed, guess I might as well be finished off?' No.

2) I'm in a bad position to answerthis question because I know it came from town, but I suspect that it's not as obvtown as it might have been as I likely overestimated the obviousness of my early-game crumbing so the desired effect of drawing a nightkill might not have happened even if the LQ backfire hadn't been a thing.

3) I figure I've been pretty transparent about what I'm thinking and feeling, so sure.

1) It is not a silly question, allow me to re-phrase it in a way you can't get confused about; Do you think there were scum on your wagon? Do you think they were rolefishing, lynchfishing, or both? Where do you think they are now?

2) I cannot imagine how you thought those crumbs would pull a NK. What do you think of the reaction to your claim? Specifically the people saying they believe you are Bashir while unvoting you...does that not strike you as crazy-sauce?

3) Enough to garner unvotes when compared to your pre-claim game?

[Thor665]

Just so u guys know I have a power to use tonight.
I can use it to get a result to help us.

I'm town and I'm a conditional tracker.
Tall need to unvote ASAP.
If I live to end of day 4 I'll get a track ability.

I mean - one of these is a lie - or you're *really* confused about your claim.
Which is it?

[Thor665]

CDB remains - and isn't actually doing anything once pressure dropped off, and also doesn't have a claim worth spit, and though I actually buy RIP's claim at the moment I'm amazed I'm the only one even questioning it since it has a hole the size of Washington state in it.

I would rather lynch Titus or Klingon than Senator.
I would rather lynch CDB than him too.

[Thor665]

Why do you want Senator to remain? He's accused most players of being Scum, but hasn't built a case on anyone.

How is that a scumplan exactly?
I have stated a townlean on Senator a long while back, and nothing much has changed it. I don't see his play as pro-scum. I do see his play as abrasive, I am currently reading it as abrasive town. Mostly on gut, I'll admit, but it doesn't feel like a scumsucker to me. Frankly, that he's emerging as a third derp claim runup while no one is analyzing RIP nor asking why they stopped suspecting CDB hardly fills me with much excitment of the prospect of a wagon run on him.

Why does it thrill you?

at this point its CDB or Klingy.

Titus is shamelessly hopping around.

Vote CDB then.
I lean town on Klingon.

[Thor665]

He was at the point where he was forced to claim, and yet you couldn't get him lynched.

What is your take on how that wagon fell apart and why?

[Thor665]

I'm talking CDB, not RIP - I thought you were also talking CDB since that's who Senator was talking about.
I will ignore you missing the hole because...yeah, why not.
That said - could you answer the question again based on CDB as who I'm asking about?

[Thor665]

Did you read the wagon breakup?
Having an issue with why the wagon existed should not affect your ability to assess how it broke up nor how you feel about the reasoning stated - at least I don't think it should.

[Thor665]

Did you read the wagon breakup?
Having an issue with why the wagon existed should not affect your ability to assess how it broke up nor how you feel about the reasoning stated - at least I don't think it should.

I scanned it previously, as it had pretty much broken up by the time I subbed in. I'll go through and read it fully now...

Going through and re-reading it, I still can't tell you much about why it broke up, no one seems to spend a lot of time talking about it. It's almost as if the goal was never to lynch him, but only to get a claim out of him, and once that happened, no one cared anymore. It's weird.

I agree the breakup was messed up, and have my own theories.

On the presumption that you are town reading CDB - shouldn't your working theory be that the scum were trying to just force a claim and then went and pushed for another claim target (RIP - another wagon you fail to support) So why aren't you considering that in Senator (who actively opposed the RIP counter push)? And why aren't you pushing on some of the people present on both wagons?

Are you town? I had that vibe earlier - I'm losing it now.
Save my opinion of you?

[Thor665]

However, mafia either helped or stayed out of the fray and let him bury himself.

I agree, scum either voted for LQ or didn't.
CDB did one of the above.
Would you like to vote him?

we all pretty much know by now, wanting the BP alive is a heavy scum motive.

I was not there then, but I will happily agree that I would have actively opposed the idea of lynching the Princess claim on the belief it was a true claim.

[Thor665]

All of the same people are always talking. Chances are that most of the townies are the in actives over the mafia. This I think is easily supported by the number of trains that run off track or suddenly get changed.

Why does that conclusion happen?
Theoretically couldn't all of the wagons be getting run off the tracks because town is easy to confuse, whereas scum have an agenda and would stick to it?
Also, you're saying all the lynch wagons are on town reads - why would scum bother to derail or change those?

Why do you townread CDB?

[Thor665]

Thor, seriously, stop ignoring me. Why do you scum read CDB. Besides being the key source behind trying to say the hider hid behind him which I and many others doubt because Max would most likely try the best survivability till later in game when his role is more vital. Doing a maybe hide behind scum would be a risky move and with who and how people flipped, I seriously doubt Max hid behind CDB with even the remotest chance.

So besides the hider theory, what else do you have? If you can't answer this, you are tunneling on a single questionable post.

I have multiple times stated my issue with CDB and made no illusion at all about how deep or wide ranging the read was.
If you didn't like it before, and I haven't announced a brilliant new insight and revelation since the last time I stated my case (which, honestly, was probably a day or two ago at most) I have no idea why you're double checking now.
I understand that you don't like the case.
I don't really care at this stage - you play in a way and with a logic that I don't think will ever connect with mine.
Go be quiet and keep voting a wagon that is going nowhere and that you're not pushing functionally and let me work. Or expect to be ignored more in the future. But don't act like I'm not being clear with my thoughts.

[Thor665]

Senator has accused most of the players of being Scum, myself in particular. It would be nice if he had any sort of case on any of us, but at best he simply picks up talking points from others.

I am more than willing to agree that he's doing this.
I am less willing to accept it as an example of scum play as opposed to 'play that I disagree with'.
Where's the meat?

RIP may or may not be some kind of PR, I'm stepping back from him

for now.

The push on him was iffy, and seemed to accelerate after he started dropping role hints all without anyone calling him out for being derp and dropping role hints, then aided by a dash of whipped cream and derp as no one examined the claim except me...who isn't even on the wagon nor particularly in support of it. I was hoping to get a town read off reactions, instead I got a wet fart in my face. it was unpleasent on so many levels.
Yes - we should totally drop that case and move on, I agree.

I was Townreading CDB until the Hider issue came up. I'm still not sure that he's Scum. FoS, yes, definitely.

Then vote him - he's riding a ruddy VT claim. Who cares if he's town at this point? He's worth flipping to simply solve the Hider question.

But Senator's playing a lame game

As opposed to everyone else? C'mon - what is this?

it's almost like he's trying to get lynched. I'll be happy to accommodate.

[Thor665]

You seem to have missed all the math that was done in that regard.

No, I saw the math - I just don't think it makes as much sense as you want me to believe it does.

[1]LQ claimed. Upon his being lynched, the next Day was skipped, giving both Scum and the TownPRs an extra Night for actions.
[2]With him lynched D1, it hindered Scum because they had to shoot blind. They wouldn't know who the PRs were.
[3]If Scum (and some Town) kept LQ alive until later in the game, Scum would have likely known who some of the PRs are.
[4]If LQ were kept alive until LyLo, Scum would win.

[5]So the D1 lynch was the optimal play. We didn't lose anyone too valuable.

1. Yup.
2. So...basically by lynching him Day 1, you gave scum a town lynch (their optimal result Day 1) and a Night Kill opportunity...just like a regular Night 1. And then also a second kill afterwards for free. So they got 2 blind shots where otherwise they would only get 1, and also got a town lynch. Yeah - how terrible for them...?
3. That is a potential, yes. Docs would have also known who a claimed Princess was too. Also Watcher roles. Or other interesting possibilities.
4. Yes, his death would rob town of a lynch attempt, as scum could get an additional kill - just like they did in this game and just like town was robbed of a lynch attempt.

5. Eh... No, the lynch was only "optimal" if you thought he was scum, or were convinced he was town and wanted to let scum kill in the less info stage and town lynch in the higher info stage, but that's a bit of a gamble on slim percentages in any case, and also robs town of a lot of info early on - as we currently see. I actually, personally, think early info is more valuable than late game percentages, but that's because I believe scumhunting is an actual tool that is more powerful than random guessing. If you *disagree* with that, then, yes, you made an acceptable choice. I would have opposed it like the dickens though.

It's not a guaranteed support, and my hurried about-to-go-to-sleep wording from last night could probably have done with less certainty, but the relationship between the two roles really rather struck me.

Eh, yeah, sure, maybe.

While I generally share your opinion that we shouldn't assume that good guys in the show can't be scum in this game and vice versa, all the flips that we've had so far have been from characters (or other shows' creators, grumble grumble) who were good people - or at least, not bad guys. I can understand why people would go 'oh, yeah, he's probably Bashir, which means he's probably not scum'. I'm not going to disagree with you when you tell people that being Bashir doesn't guarantee my alignment, but I'm also not going to go around yelling at people who unvote me because of it because a) clinging to that is more likely to be an inexperience tell than a scumtell for a lot of players in this game and b) there'd be a bit of the turkey arguing for Christmas about it.

I really dislike this "well, questioning people doing stuff that benefits my chances of avoiding lynch (as a VT) is silly of me" line.
It does not read as town.
VT town's job is to question stuff and place votes.
You're acting like your job is to survive. It is killing any glimmer of town I get from you when you occasionally say something that is not empty and look like you're scumhunting.

Probably? Off the top of my head I can't recall if I posted more before or after, but I certainly got more emotional - at least with Titus. I don't really want to talk about this, though. I don't really see self-analysis being very helpful because I know I've been town the whole way through, and I've had no trouble agreeing with every one of my posts this whole game, so I'm pretty willing to call myself obvtown before, after, and during my claim.

Second verse, same as the first.

tl;dr

Narninian might be the best candidate for scum on my wagon. Displaced is maybe my next guess.

I really like Narn for town ever since when I replaced in Day 3, asked for reads, and got a list of town reads and no scum reads. Do you think he's clever/cowardly enough to go for that play as scum? Because I'm not getting that.
I rather dislike the sudden weird surge on him and Senator now from people too. One is based off "lurk!" again, as far as I can tell (what even is the case on Narn?) and the other is some newbies and some other players who really should know better, wagoning someone for, functionally, being annoying.

[Thor665]

Thor I hated how narm just comes out of lurking to jump on top wagons that pick up fast.
Instead of just shamesly voting, he makes sheep remarks and this shows a struggle.

So, he lurks and then votes people citing other player's cases as his own reasoning - which is more scummy to you than if he just voted without claiming reasons?
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here, but if it's what I think you're saying I disagree with you.
I'll agree he hasn't been around and seems to have relatively empty votes.
That was something a lot of people called scummy on you too.
I still disagree with it as a tell.
All it's saying is that Narn, and you, are playing in an obnoxious way that is not pro-town. It does not scream scum intent though. I think a lot of people on this site play poorly. If I always voted people whose play I found unhelpful/annoying I would never need to scumhunt or look for another tell again.

Look at how senator's vote moves. Look at his comments about other people's votes. Note hypocrisy.

I am agreeing that he is aggravating as a poster.
I'm asking why that makes him scummy.
You're listing habits that show he is an aggravating poster.

I've been reading the game and have apparently missed the "moves" the "comments" and the "hypocrisy" that are scummy.
I might agree that some of his votes and stances are obnoxious - I've even called him out on some derp play and had him respond that I'm wrong even though (to my mind) I'm blatantly right. But the only one I have that seems telling kind of hints that CDB is a scum partner, if it's actually true, so it doesn't really sell me.
I agree that he denigrates others votes. I don't see attacking votes or wagons to be a proven scumtell (I would go so far as to say it blatantly isn't).
I also suspect that you're using hypocrisy wrong and that there is none.
Do you have examples of any of this (maybe just 1-2 of each?). And, along with those examples, thoughts as to why you see scum motivation as opposed to a disagreeable poster? (the hypocrisy would probably be the closest thing you're arguing to a scumtell - as I agree that hypocrisy is more often than random chance a scumtell over poor play, so feel free to focus on that one)

RIP, Thor help us flip Sen and prove he's scum. The guy is clearly making Smurf up and now he's trying to take over the conversation by posting over and over and over. He's at best anti-town, and at worst obvscum.

Is he making up stuff worse than Titus - a player you're apparently fine with and are voting in agreement with at the moment?
What's he making up?

I don't care for the 'at best anti-town' jargon. That easily applies to a large swathe of this game. I could apply it to my wagon of choice also. So what? Doesn't make them scum.

1) My job partly

is

to survive, at least in as much as it is to kill scum before we are dead. I know that lynching me does not get scum, ergo resisting my own lynch is important.
2) I am even more conscious of the necessity to push to survive at the moment because it would be

so easy

just to say 'well, I guess we can afford to clean up the ambiguity in the supposed crumb by just getting my lynch out of the way', especially when I am actively hating participating in this game. Even if you guys end up following through and lynching me, I won't be sad. But I don't want to throw more replacements into this game and I don't want to be one of the many slots phoning it in, so I am left with no option than to continue playing to my wincon until I can't, for integrity's sake. Resisting a lynch based almost only on a wholly unconvincing 'crumb' is, like, the first thing to address on that front.
3) You're acting as I'm not trying to do both survive

and

figure out who's scum and place votes, and I'm doing what I can.

1. Does not adddress my issue.
2. Does not address my issue.
3. This does address my issue and, yes, I am saying that - I am saying 'what you can' equates to basically nothing, and that you are in full on survival mode.

Second verse, same as the first.

What the smurf were you expecting me to say here? I don't think that there would have been any response to that question that would have made you happy, but I don't see why my answer should surprise you.

Saying 'I don't see self analysis as helpful' and being generically happy with the result without caring about the reasoning of other players didn't 'surprise' me, no.
It did ping me as scummy though - which I indicated to you.
I was not really 'expecting' anything...well, I dunno, I guess with my read on you I was probably expecting the question would either weaken or strengthen the read, and I can get a little focused as a habit, so probably intended it to strengthen my belief. It assuredly did, because it showed, yet again, that in my analysis of you I'm seeing hard defense and zero scumhunting or town analysis and paranoia.

[Thor665]

What I'm seeing in Senator is changing his vote frequently and without any apparent reason. I read that as scummy because I see him probing for a lynch, any lynch, while at the same time not staying on a wagon or doing anything to push it.

I will happily agree he's probing for a lynch. Sadly, I know he, and many other players, do that as town. I am one of them, frankly, I'm just usually aggressive enough to push through the lynch without too much hopping.

I disagree that he's not doing anything to push his chosen wagons. I don't think what he's doing is great for that purpose, but attacking other wagons and kind of incessently noting his wagon as generically good *is* pushing the wagon.

He's tunneling Titus but voting everywhere else.

He waas voting Titus for some time, as I recall, and I sort of feel like he just recently voted Titus, albeit for a short period of time.
I really don't think they are scumbuddies though - and unless you're suggesting they are scumbuddies I fail to see how attacking Titus but "refusing" to vote him is scummy.

I see this as setting a stage for later being able to say that he voted people after they flip scum, without having to ever say once why he thought they were scummy or make a case on his own. BTW this might also be a good 3rd party case.

I agree players (town or scum) claim past brilliance off derp votes they never pushed hard and even do so into post game meaning they believe what they say.
But, frankly you're suggesting something he *might* do in the future as a scum case...that doesn't really work.

As far as the comments and how they are hypocritical, yes examples would be nice. My previous post was late night on a tablet. This post is mid workday.

Okay. If you presented hypocrisy in this post I totally have missed it, or we have a disagreement about what hypocrisy is. I think the closest you came was the Titus thing, which isn't really hypocrisy, but would at least be lack of inner logic - that said, I disagree with you on the concept that he isn't voting Titus, and also disagree on the idea that they are scumbuddies.

Do you think CDB is still likely town at this stage?

[Thor665]

RIP, Thor help us flip Sen and prove he's scum. The guy is clearly making Smurf up and now he's trying to take over the conversation by posting over and over and over. He's at best anti-town, and at worst obvscum.

Is he making up stuff worse than Titus - a player you're apparently fine with and are voting in agreement with at the moment?
What's he making up?

I don't care for the 'at best anti-town' jargon. That easily applies to a large swathe of this game. I could apply it to my wagon of choice also. So what? Doesn't make them scum.

2134 2137 2149 largely outline my case against him.

Also, I never said I was OK with KC. In fact, I said I'd think more about her, and asked for a TL;DR version of the case against her, and was never give that. So, right now, I don't know how I feel about KC, but to categorize it as "apparently fine" is inaccurate.

Your case appears to be that he (intentionally?) thought you were pushing RIP and then later stated that he didn't like the vanity wagon you were pushing, and you argued that it was fine for you to be pushing a vanity wagon.

I don't think the RIP thing was intentional myself, that looks like a derp. Maybe he is scum, maybe he is town, both are capable of recalling things wrong. At best I see an argument for 'not reading much/skimming - ergo likely scum' which I'll agree is a case, albeit not a particularly strong one as I know lots of town players who will do little gaffs like that, and he even corrected afterwaards which makes it look unpremeditated to me. Like, if he had held to his guns, or tried to twist your words, that would be something. I think you have a case of 'bad play' here. I see no reason to presume it has a scumgenda.

I will note that Titus is also making stuff up and has *not* claimed it was a mistake. Why aren't you having issues with her?

As to the vanity wagon - hell, I also think you are sidelining. I said as much to you outright when you started pushing it. Is having that belief really evidence of scum? I don't think so.

I am unsure how Klingon got into this conversation, maybe you didn't quote part of my reply? I'm too lazy to check after clicking your other links so willingly. I do appear to bring up Titus - did you get those confused? The language seems to imply this. I was meaning Titus - not Klingon. You appear to be treating the same tell differently from the two players for no discernible reason - it makes me dislike you and the wagon.

PEdit - okay...but it's the same tell. So, what do you know about Senator to make his use of the tell scummy and Titus is just Titus? I ould actually tend to reverse the issue in my own head off what I think of the two players.

[Thor665]

He is playing naive - I would like that to stop.
You are playing poorly however, I'd like that to stop too - unless you think distracting our overabundance of newbs is remotely helpful?

[Thor665]

The Fox has replaced Little Gumball. The Fox has requested replacement.

Uff da.

[Thor665]

Maybe you can walk me through where you claim Titus made stuff up?

About Klingon wanting an immediate lynch with no conversation post claim - literally all evidence points to the opposite of that conclusion. Yet Titus keeps saying it like it's true, and then other lackwits are echoing it - because apparently they don't have brains between their ears.

Thor, I have not made Smurf up.

Titus - you have made Smurf up.
Or lack reading comprehension.
I was giving your the benefit of the doubt on the 'common sense' scale.

Why do you buy his claim?p

The crumbs look fairly legit to me. Certainly enough to buy a day or two.
Why do you not buy the claim?

(Or Ill just sheep Thor, however Im feeling tomorrow)

Sheep me now, vote CDB.
Buddying me tomorrow won't buy as much cred.

Tbh I kinda hate this setup here. Claiming character names and no punishment is so bad that's not even fun or challenge me mentally to play.

Please vote CDB.

[Thor665]

Hint: get your vote in play/consolidate your vote.
Also, if we don't adjust pace it will assuredly be a deadline lynch - is everyone else okay with that? I think those usually end sloppily and not good for town - of course if no one else has an issue with it we can continue doing what we're doing, but if you don't think that's a good idea I would point you to my Hint above.

[Thor665]

The one posted three pages ago and re-posted on this page is probably a pretty clear picture.

In other news - people still won't vote you.

[Thor665]

I'll even go ahead and predict a town flip.
That wagon does not fill me with happy thoughts.

Regardless of alignment Senator played badly - other people playing badly does not justify further bad play, natch.

=====================

Senator(8) -

Riabi, KlingonCelt

, Titus, Sinsun1,

Salamence20

, Nero Cain,

ChannelDelibird

,

Narninian

, Senator

Based on a town flip - these are my thoughts on the wagon.
Yes, I understand fully that Salmance = Peacebringer.
Yes, I am fully aware that I had been calling Titus town earlier - Titus has worked very hard to destroy that read.

@Senator - claim any shots you made thus far, please. Currently your claim is not very helpful.

[Thor665]

If this is what all theme games run like I wont be playing them.

This is what Larges with lots of new players play like - also, new site meta.

Claim your shots, if any, please.

[Thor665]

@Thor, or maybe you can just realize that Senator is STILL likely just playing to the flip. He's probably scum. If not, no regrets because CDB is likely town.

Salmance is the only player that really gives me the jeebies on that wagon. If I had to pick a second scum on there, I'd go Nero/Narnian but those would be stretches that make Strech Armstrong look like a seasoned tunneller.

I would pick CDB and probably you.

[Thor665]

It also occurs to me Titus that you called me out on dinging you for making stuff up - but when I explicitly state what you're making up you go dead quiet on the subject.
I'm going to clarify now that I'm straight up scumreading you.

[Thor665]

Vote: CDB

The Narn vote looks silly to me, but I like that RIP at least comes out of the gate swinging.
That said - we had like 3 counterwagons to this guy yesterday.
Hint.

[Thor665]

::crickets::

[Thor665]

CDB has nine lives and lived through a doc claim. (Yes he didnt claim doc, but would a doc claim doc?
I unvoted him for his claim, but I don't think thats enough for me now.

...what?

To both lines - I need more explanation of that.

One of the things KlingonCelt said was pointed out as seemingly having too much info. She mentioned a vig without there having been any results which pointed to one. When called on it she danced around the issue saying she expected multiple kills in a large, but it still raises the question why she'd think vig and not SK for the source of the expected kills. One possibility is a BP scum, which is sometimes used as a way to balance town killing roles. Or asking about vig while also looking like genuine town can be an indicator of being a BP SK herself (though lack of even more kills speaks against that). I'm not ready to string her up to test the theory but it should be remembered for later.

I agree with this, had similar thoughts, and like that you brought it up.
We're still lynching CDB today though - so don't shift that vote.

[Thor665]

CDB has nine lives and lived through a doc claim. (Yes he didnt claim doc, but would a doc claim doc?
I unvoted him for his claim, but I don't think thats enough for me now.

...what?

To both lines - I need more explanation of that.

Basically mirroring what you've said. There were a lot of counterwagons/defense of CDB yesterday and I think that was scum's doing. He also lived through the night after claiming a character that would be the clear/only logical choice to be the doctor. I know he claimed a vanilla townie, but I'm thinking that is increasingly unlikely with 2 heavy negative town roles and a townie role already outed.

So you're saying you bought his claim yesterday because you thought he was saying *wink*I'm not a Doc*wink* and that, therefore, scum not killing him equates to him being scum?

[Thor665]

Well that scum kill told me that my reading people might be totally Smurfing off this game rather than Senator being a total dumbSmurf as the sole reason.

For that reason, am going to give Thor a pass for awhile. Still think he is scum, but I need some distance to reevaluate that read.

CDB I still think is town.

"I am thinking my reads might not be all that accurate, so I need time to reassess them...except for that CDB read, that one is solid."

I feel like I have to be reading this wrong.
Clarify your current thoughts?

[Thor665]

Salmance is the only player that really gives me the jeebies on that wagon. If I had to pick a second scum on there, I'd go Nero/Narnian but those would be stretches that make Strech Armstrong look like a seasoned tunneller.

I would pick CDB and probably you.

[Thor665]

I need to reassess my reads but it's not like I stop believing I am right because I need to reassess.

Well...obviously you do to some extent - you don't reassess correct reads, you reassess reads you're questioning.
I feel like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth to me.
Clarify?

Based on this alone, without having read reasoning for voting, I'd probably put my scum placements on either Kling or Titus, and Nero and, if I HAD to put a 3rd and knowing that Salamence is town, either Sinsun or Channel or Narn.

I'd put Suzune as town because I townread Jamierus. I'm liking Dave.

I like your reads.
Let's speed lynch CDB.

Thor what if I told u I know one thing.

I would pray that you knew more than that.

Utterly amazing that somehow that did not get lynched yesterday, and Senator did instead.

I blame you lurking out and letting the inmates run the asylum.
Yeah - it was a poor lynch, but how was it shocking? I don't recall you in the trenches on a daily basis fighting the good fight. Even if CDB flips scum I want more out of you if you want to be town bloc.

Can someone summarize all claims that have not already flipped?

Oh who cares? That will matter on Day 6 or if you're a scum roleblocker.

@Suzune - why no CDB vote? Talk to me.

[Thor665]

I have no vote on CDB bird simply because I do not think he is scum. Easy plain as day. Now sure looking through his ISO I can see why you would think that because he pushed so hard for the lynch of the beloved princess on day one.

That and having activity directly connected to the amount of push on him, and a dearth of scumhunting, and the Hider theory - yes.
Honestly, I didn't even realize he was a pusher for the BP - and I'm not actually willing to call that a scumtell, but him being on both lynch wagons that were both on town is a pretty valid reason to flip him also.

But compared to everyone here, he is the only ones with a reads list post 1798, two actually, post 2292, which honestly is a pretty townie thing.

Honestly - no, I don't think it is. But even if you think stating reads is townie (which, in a loose sense - sure) what has he done with these statements? As far as I can tell - not much.

His claim was pushed and he was able to defend it well.

What?
He claimed VT - his claim was never attacked, so he didn't need to defend it at all.
I will also, restate, that I am more than willing to believe that his role is indeed Bashir.
I will then also add - so what?

Plus, I believe his frustration was genuine meaning that he was indeed town here post 2315.
You think when he's scum he would not be frustrated if being lynched?
I am, regardless of my alignment.
Are you not?

I have noticed Thor that you have a habit of shooting down other peoples ideas or writing entire novels for why their plans are wrong. Not saying that is bad, just that you are not listening either.

I would surmise that because I am able to specifically describe my issues with their thoughts that I am very much "listening".
There is a difference between listening and agreeing.
You disagree with me here - does that mean you aren't listening?
Let me know.

I thin you reasoning following why CDB must be scum is poor.

Why?

So I think you claim that he must be scum because he did not die holds no weight and is entirely impracticable.

I never claimed that unless you mean my counterwagon argument - in which case your stance makes no sense to me.
So either you need to explain it more, or notice that you're confusing me with Narn.

unvote

for now...

Why?

RIP you said you were a conditional tracker? Does this mean you did some tracking already or do you not get to do it at all until tonight?

This is not pro-town fishing at this point.
Unless he wants to flat out claim something - does it matter?
Hint: no.

[Thor665]

Spoiler: Fixed

I have no vote on CDB bird simply because I do not think he is scum. Easy plain as day. Now sure looking through his ISO I can see why you would think that because he pushed so hard for the lynch of the beloved princess on day one.

That and having activity directly connected to the amount of push on him, and a dearth of scumhunting, and the Hider theory - yes.
Honestly, I didn't even realize he was a pusher for the BP - and I'm not actually willing to call that a scumtell, but him being on both lynch wagons that were both on town is a pretty valid reason to flip him also.

But compared to everyone here, he is the only ones with a reads list post 1798, two actually, post 2292, which honestly is a pretty townie thing.

Honestly - no, I don't think it is. But even if you think stating reads is townie (which, in a loose sense - sure) what has he done with these statements? As far as I can tell - not much.

His claim was pushed and he was able to defend it well.

What?
He claimed VT - his claim was never attacked, so he didn't need to defend it at all.
I will also, restate, that I am more than willing to believe that his role is indeed Bashir.
I will then also add - so what?

Plus, I believe his frustration was genuine meaning that he was indeed town here post 2315.

You think when he's scum he would not be frustrated if being lynched?
I am, regardless of my alignment.
Are you not?

I have noticed Thor that you have a habit of shooting down other peoples ideas or writing entire novels for why their plans are wrong. Not saying that is bad, just that you are not listening either.

I would surmise that because I am able to specifically describe my issues with their thoughts that I am very much "listening".
There is a difference between listening and agreeing.
You disagree with me here - does that mean you aren't listening?
Let me know.

I thin you reasoning following why CDB must be scum is poor.

Why?

So I think you claim that he must be scum because he did not die holds no weight and is entirely impracticable.

I never claimed that unless you mean my counterwagon argument - in which case your stance makes no sense to me.
So either you need to explain it more, or notice that you're confusing me with Narn.

unvote

for now...

Why?

RIP you said you were a conditional tracker? Does this mean you did some tracking already or do you not get to do it at all until tonight?

This is not pro-town fishing at this point.
Unless he wants to flat out claim something - does it matter?
Hint: no.

[Thor665]

I mean, if that is the deciding factor here when looking for scum, based on what you are saying of course, then look at all the scum I found. Isn't it odd though that both Senator and LQ voted for themselves, (sorry random thought)

Thank you for arguing something I'm not claiming?
But, yes, I will agree that it seems a wise course of action to lynch our scummiest read from those bolded names.
Mine is CDB - who is yours?

However if everyone did something of a semblance when people flipped we would have something interesting to go back and look at. It would be able to guide us a little.

Nah - you ignore their reads lists - you look at their votes and pushes. Reads lists are empty without action.

Rather then have one person constantly try to sway the town to one vote. It allows the mafia to easily sheep which is what is weighing down the town.

And yet I *still* haven't managed to force through a wagon yet - weird.

Unless i misread, and my knowledge of the theme is nonexistant. He claimed doctor not vanilla townie.

You REALLY BADLY misread.

Are you suggesting that being able to defend yourself and be reasonable are not townie.

No - I am suggesting he hasn't done either, and certainly hasn't done either based around his claim.

I thought he handled it correctly when pushed and it looked townie to me. I apologise that you do not seem to think so.

How did he "look townie" to you?

I guess no, I am not. I enjoy the limelight of being mafia on stage. I feed off the attention and it allows me to hone my story better. As a townie I get frustrated because little information that I have cannot clear me and I when I have no way of obtaining new information it becomes a stress. It is harder to tell the truth in mafia then to tell a lie. The truth can only be told so many times in so many ways. While if you are lying it can be more interesting or more pointed.

So your working theory is that he plays like you, and not like me.
Why?

As I said, which was clearly missed. The mafia has reason to leave alive those who are likely to cause the town to lynch them. Why remove townies that the town will just lynch themselves. That is why saying, because he wasn't killed at night despite his role, proves he is town. It a ridiculous argument. However, technically it was Narm's claim but you said you agreed to his thinking so I attributed it to you as well in my notes.

I never said I agreed to that thinking.
Your notes need work on that, and also on what CDB claimed.
Maybe on more stuff too - your notes worry me now - I don't think they're very accurate.

Would you like to post them? I could offer some thoughts.

[Thor665]

Klimt is PR town or scum. I

know

this

is why I ask. If he's claiming hidden info he might as well out it, he's already claimed so its not fishing.

I'd actually missed that.
That is an incredibly derpy thing to out if it is an out.

@RIP - why in the universe would you bother claiming or intimating a PR positive on anyone? That's pro-scum any way you cut it - are you claiming scum? I'd like to know.

[Thor665]

@RIP - frankly, claim who Kling targeted. If Kling disagrees with you as to who she targeted my desire is to lynch you immediately. Because town tracker does not randomly announce PRs. Scum tracker without daytalk does.

[Thor665]

Of course you'd still be a tracker then - unless a rolecop.
Meh, claim anyway.

[Thor665]

Well technically you did claim it. You said, " but him being on both lynch wagons that were both on town is a pretty valid reason to flip him also." So I merely pointed out the number of people that were on both lynch wagons. Mine is Narn. I made that clear the other day. Likewise, I think it is worth to run analysis on the other trains that did not make it through. I find it suspect that they were smooth enough to kill one on the Senator's train because that would force us to fight internally rather then move forward.

Technically I am also an avacado.

Remind me of the Narn case - he's still town in my book for offering a limited reads list that was only town. That's an unusual scum play for a newb, and he strikes me as very newb. Your counter?

However, considering you are a huge advocater for it and still remain alive bares many questions too does it not.

I don't think it does at all - do you?

Ah, the doctor mishap came from here: post 1862. Oops~

Mmm.

I mentioned twice now that I thought he was quite townie looking and mentioned why I though. You would refute it and then ask me why again. I have nothing new to provide you at this point in time I believe that they are leaning townie. I understand that is not your perspective but it is mine.

You stated he looked townie around the claim.
None of your prior reasoning explained why he looked townie around the claim - if it did quote it and I'll admit the fault.
I thought it was a valid question since 'look townie' is as applicable as 'looked scummy' - you don't care how they looked, you care why people are saying they looked one way or the other. The emptier the answer the more suspect the belief. It's why I ask - I want to know if you've actually thought this through, or are just tossing empty words at me.

So your working theory is that he plays like you, and not like me.
Why?

Haha, no. But you ask me if it does not apply to me, so I responded to that question. It did not come off as particularly anti-town to me. Perhaps it would be better for you to explain your stance about why you think he is mafia. Perhaps we would get more places.

You really dodged this question.
I gave my reasons for finding him scum at the start of our conversation a few hours ago - which of them do you not understand? I'll happily expand on any of them and not dodge questions like you did here.

I'm trying to point out to you how empty your theory for town CDB is - why are you so against noticing that this is the case? You can still stick to 'gut' and call it a day on your beliefs, but it is not functional to be selling gut to other people as more than gut. That's the purpose of this attack from me towards you. You are feeling very empty in factual reasons for your beliefs - agree/disagree?

For that you deserve my apology. You spoke in the conversation I interjected into. So I placed you on the same page. I apologise. My notes are my ideas and thoughts. Yours are clearly yours. While they are in contrast to one another, I do not believe that makes them wrong.

Well...outside of stuff like 'what did CDB claim and what did Thor actually say he believed' - those are actual facts that are either correct or incorrect.

You are not the mayor so you have not position to say all of my ideas are wrong

I'm not saying they're all wrong - I'm saying some are assuredly wrong and that it leaves me concerned about the 'facts' you are using to base beliefs on.

it is just your opinion of the situation because you are not confirmed townie yourself.

Doesn't matter actually - some people here are town, some are not. Such is Mafia.

I will take that as a 'no' to sharing your notes/thoughts then?

[Thor665]

Based on this alone, without having read reasoning for voting, I'd probably put my scum placements on either Kling or Titus, and Nero and, if I HAD to put a 3rd and knowing that Salamence is town, either Sinsun or Channel or Narn.

I'd put Suzune as town because I townread Jamierus. I'm liking Dave.

I like your reads.
Let's speed lynch CDB.

I appreciate the sentiment but I'm not into speed lynches. I'm more interested in what Channel has to say since I believe he hasn't posted all Day. (going to go check up on that right now to make sure i'm not talking out of my rump)

Yep - that really long lynch yesterday was the way to do it. My bad

[Thor665]

@Thor: Yep, I was certainly around yesterday so I most definitely obviously know everything that happened.

Well, you know we lynched town and you know I made a comment about 3 counterwagons to CDB - what else would you like to be filled in on in order to make speedwagoning tasty looking to you?

[Thor665]

Who cares - he's dodge scum or lurk VT
Go read his comments from yesterday near lynch - I highly doubt anything of worth has shifted. Maybe he'll shift his value call on me and/or Titus - but he already had a moment looking down the guns.
Why would you expect anything new or interesting today?

[Thor665]

So RIP lied and has zero hidden info, but he really doesn't like you, Narn. Any idea why?

If you think RIP is lying why aren't you voting him?

So which scum play is unusual for a newb?

Having nothing but townreads - I said that already.

Does being new at the game exempt you from being mafia?

No.
Not that I ever said it did.

Underestimating those you think are weak will get you every time in my opinion.

So will overestimating people - the goal is to read accurately, naturally.

I don't think it does at all - do you?

We need to be careful, I love to wax mafia theory and to see other people do it but we are treading into only theory crafting here. I find it interesting which you need to dissect everyone's posts and to be very active in voicing an opinion. People who do that are usually portrayed as threatening. So I am merely suggesting that since you are still alive that is bears why. The mafia is clearly controlling this game, finding out what the points of strength for them are needs to be the goal. Otherwise, we will be crushed in coming days. So now, in my opinion, it is time to question the actions of the last two days so we do not fall into a routine that gets exploited.

So you...do think it's scummy of me to be alive?

Words are empty, I have nothing concrete like actual evidence to back my claim. I just believe that posts like this, post 1396, post 1798, post 1960, post 1965. I was told once in a mafia game, here on this site, that mafia do not need to actively scum hunt. Rather mafia need to look for inconsistencies that can be exploited and make it look like it is someone else's idea. This was interesting to me at the time and I find it interesting and something I keep on the back burner. I believe that his posts show active thinking and moving. Also a honestly about bad moves and active rethinking showing that the thinking is not locked on something. Being locked, unless you are sure, on one idea limits you ability to see a person as something else.

The first link is defense of himself and a soft attack on KC.
The second is a reads list wherein he states Senator is town for the exact reasons he will later vote Senator and has moved KC to a mushy middle read from the first post.
The third is him arguing with Titus - I don't see why that post is any more or less scummy than any other in that exchange.
The fourth is him being annoyed at Titus still.

I don't see active thinking or moving (well, actually I guess he did move Senator from town to scum when he had the chance to help push through the lynch), I don't see admission of wrong unless you're arguing the soft move of KC from scum to 'meh' counts.

Your read feels still like gut to me, gut paired with a lack of desire to admit it's gut.
For the record I feel as though I grok your read now - you have no obligation to reply to this comment.

I apologise, I do not understand what the question is then. You asked if I thought he played like me and I said probably not. If there was a much larger question being asked you are going to have to ask again.

The larger question is why you townread him off something based on a theory of how he would react - I wanted to know if you had any basis for thinking that he would react one way or the other. You dodged that, by saying you didn't think he was you (okay, fine) but then leaving empty why you then think his reaction was, thus, townish.

This is the case you meant?

Yes.

I have never seen people so fixated over a hider before.

Dunno why not - a dead Hider is like a Cop claiming a guilty. It really kind of matters to sort it out.

However, I fail to see how the amount of someones scum hunting and how often they play are good factual reasons. (Those were taken from your read that I quoted earlier).

You're somewhat misrepresenting those - but I will happily agree that neither of those are facts. Well, theoretically they are both facts, it's just neither are functionally provable facts. I admit they are assessed opinions I have made. Don't really see how this matters though - I felt I was clear enough in what I meant even if I botched a potential word. Let us rephrase to 'presented solid reasoning'? There is a big difference between "I town read him because he presented a lot of town reads (a provable fact) and no scum reads (a provable fact) and I don't see that as coming from newbie scum (a presented opinion)" vs. "his posts feel townish to me".
In the first - you understand why I believe what I believe. In the second, I am saying 'gut' in a fancy way.
Makes sense?

This is an interesting question and I approach it with some uncertainty. Strangely enough it looks like a trap.

That is strange - why do you think me asking to see your notes on the game is a trap?

Also, they are written down in my notebook since my laptop had to go into the computer store because he was getting my too hot so I would have to type them all out for you. I will continue to comment on actions of the game and you will see more colours from that. I believe this answer may disappoint you but so be it~

No - I have literally never gotten "notes" from anyone before. Well, I did once, but it was scum faking the notes, and I caught them off that. Everyone else always demurs for various reasons. I mostly ask out of morbid curiosity and because it's an interesting thing to mine reactions off of.

[Thor665]

#2576, If I only reassessed reads I had doubt over Thor, I'd reassess everything. I may be confident but I don't stick to reads I feel are "right" when shit hits the fan. I was wrong on my biggest scumread. I have to reset everything. That's the way it is.

Then you *are* claiming that you're reassessing CDB?

The more you try to make my reset confusing, the harder it is to actually reset on your slot.

Don't care - I'm asking you questions so I can read you. If me doing so prevents you from reading me - that's on you to solve.

[Thor665]

You are like an eel.

[Thor665]

I didn't trek anyone.
I think Klingon is scum cuz her play is bad and distant.
I'm pretty sure narm is scum. I want to resolve him

Please sheep me now.

[Thor665]

U are voting CBd. He claimed the guy that should be a town. Idk

How is Bashir town?
Do you know something about the scumteam that I don't?

Also we can get rid of peregrine anytime.
Dude just claimed scum by calling me and CBd scum yet he is not voting any of us?

We want to catch your other scumbuddies before lynching CDB.

[Thor665]

@ Thor. I do not know how you divide the posts up nice and neat like that, but I envy the ability.

I copy the first part of the quote then just paste it in every time when making new quote lines.

A little touchy aren't you? I did not say you said that. It was a question I asked in response to your comment about his newness.

That's like me asking you why you scum read me because I'm a man.
Yeah, sure, it's a question - but it's a non-sequitur and has no bearing to anything you've said.
This explanation feels weird.

I merely wonder if your constant need to lynch CDB is advantageous to the mafia. Just a thought I was having.

Let's lynch him and find out.

If you reveal all of your hand, then everyone including the mafia sees how you see. It makes one more easily manipulable because I would be telling exactly what I thought was townie and scummy.

I would be quite happy if scum felt obligated to always do what I considered pro-town tells.
It's why I state what I consider townish and scummy all the time.

A question for everyone: If CDB didn't exist, who would be your lynch target for today?

As in he 'never existed in the game'?
Eh - hard question to parse.
I'll answer 'if CDB were suddenly mod confirmed town, who would you lynch?'
Answer: Titus.

CDB is still in the game, however, and is not mod confirmed town.

[Thor665]

How bad is it that RIP just town slipped but I still want to lynch him so I never have to read one of his posts again?

I hope you're not talking the pisskop thing, because that's not a town slip - that's a "I'm a derp" slip, and that's alignment neutral.

[Thor665]

She said she'd be back on the 22nd and she is now out of V/LA mode, so to ignore her now is to let scum slip under the radar completely.

Do you want to speed lynch her or no?

Because if the answer is 'no' then your vote should be on CDB.

[Thor665]

I am displeased with how many people are saying they are okay with CDB as a lynch target - while failing to vote him.

Go check his last post and remind me again why he's not already swinging?

[Thor665]

Why you in such a hurry to end the day Thor?

Gee, I dunno - maybe it's because I'm smart and figured out something before something else happened, what could it be...

Ok, we went about 12 hours with no one posting there. What the ever loving Smurf?

In a weird way, we have hit a dead end. Or simply we are rehashing the same material over and over, with everyone either being on one side or the other of issues. OR simply we need to talk about who would make not jsuta good lynch target but also look for the rest of the scum team as a whole, forward planning.

Oh...look at that.

In other words, a speed CDB lynch is still a good option.

Because by the time people are complaining about no one posting while not offering anything themseleves - and multiple other people are going 'er...dunno' then the day's conversation is already over.

Lynch CDB.

Also;

@Mod - v/la; about 3 days, certainly by the weekend at some point I'll be posting.

[Thor665]

No. Dr. Bashir and Garek were both working on DS9, but they weren't closely aligned. Bashir was too busy having a crush on Jadzia Dax. Garek was trying to keep a low profile and stay on everyone's good side.

They were always the buddy pair during Season 1 though because Bashir wanted to derp around playing spy.
The Bashit/Miles combo didn't pop up till later on as I recall.
I would easily expect a flavor mention - my PM had a flavor writeup.

We are down to 8 days till deadline.
So we're actually going to manage to deadline derp lynch CDB...whee.
Why not just lynch him now then, if we're all so apathetic, let's speed things up.

[Thor665]

Also, I will explicitly state that I don't care what (if anything, or ever) CDB might manage to add to the game at this point.
Rope, rope and a drop.

[Thor665]

Yes but once I'm conf town I feel like CBd will be too. I don't see why killing him now will do any good

How does you being town make CDB town?

Can someone please tell me what sense it makes to be lynching CBD when he's not done anything scummy?

I don't know about other people, but I have claimed that CDB *has* done scummy stuff.
Also, even if you think he has done nothing scummy at all - then you shouldn't be debating that, you should be pushing someone you think has done something scummy.

Why do we want to kill someone who is/was an easy frame job if they've not done anything to be worried about?

Even presuming he has done nothing to worry about - the reason he is an easy frame job is *exactly* the reason to kill him. SOmeone isn't an easy frame job because they look like town last I checked - which means you agree that he doesn't look town, and at that stage that's already halfway to being a valid lynch option.

That whole wagon worries the hell out of me. Especially considering how little opposition there is to it.

I will agree that it is a wagon with little opposition that is proving really hard to push through.

Scum is clearly running this game, it seems like they might want this lynch as well.

Then why didn't it happen yesterday when we got him to L-1 with double hammer intent?

We no longer have the luxury of lyncyhing "for information" now we need to actually lynch scum, or we're going to find ourselves in a world of hurt really fast.

Agreed.
Though every lynch is "for information".
That said - every vote should also be on someone you think is potential scum.
I believe that to be true about CDB - look at his last five posts or so and explain to me why you think any of it looks like town. I don't think you can. If he is town, he is playing in an anti-town and pro-scum manner by dramatically avoiding giving input. If he is scum he is working an acceptable defense by playing the lurk card, and is assuredly trying to minimize his interactions at this stage.

I don't see anywhere in your posting here any opinion about a superior lynch option though.
Maybe I missed it?
If you're so opposed to CDB you need to offer an alternative, not simply empty defense (an I do find this defense very empty - it's a defense that could be applied to anyone "oh, what is the use of lynching someone who may be framable? And scum probably want it, because there is no counter...even though a counter can be a town or scum effort - and there were multiple counters to it yesterday" It's meaningless, and (on a personal note) annoying, because it's not even addressing my raised issues with the slot.

[Thor665]

Not Voting

(5): Channel Delibird, ArcAngel9,

Riabi

, PeregrineV, Narninian

I mean, seriously now - what are you doing?

[Thor665]

Though, honestly, what the hell is Pere doing also.

@Pere - weren't you for this lynch?

I kinda want to lynch Pere just for being a lurksack now - I don't think I've ever seen him do that before.

[Thor665]

That puts us at L-3 on CDB.
Beware the rage of this unrestrained war wagon of speed so fast it's unnerving[/sarcasm]

[Thor665]

RIP[2]: Davesez, Riabi

Mod actually has Riabi up twice, so maybe he's actually advancing this case.
I'm not sure what the case is, but I'm sure it's better than the one on CDB. I may have to go look.

[Thor665]

Post 2597 looks pretty damning to me. It does look like RIP lied. He's definitely my strongest scum read so far.

I actually don't dislike this case.
But, meh, the CDB one is just as good in my opinion.
Maybe we'll lynch RIP tomorrow.

[Thor665]

Though, thinking about it, beyond "he's derping it up to cloud things" I'm not sure I actually see the scum motive to the lie.

So I guess I'd support lynching him for signal/noise ratio issues, but will clarify that though I think there is a possible lie, I'm not sure what the scum goal was. So...?

[Thor665]

I find the push on RIP not very impressive - it is based on the presumption he would openly admit he was lying as scum...while ignoring that the "lie" has been in existence for over a Day Phase at this point, and was something discussed yesterday.

The collapse of the CDB wagon leaves me cold and dead inside.

I think RIP's case on Gumball is silly, but pings town in its logic.

Let's lynch CDB still.

[Thor665]

Seriously though you really are just as bad as Nero. I love how all of the people in this are so fixated. It is like playing with a town that no longer hears new posts of they do not relate to the mid set they are locked into.

I am aware of and assessed the RIP case.
I find it lacking.
Failure to vote switch does not equate to "blind tunnel" and thinking that it does is a tunnel all its own.

The RIP case - if it's minted win, then the CDB case is as well, and I don't get town vibes from CDB like I do RIP.

[Thor665]

Agreed - but I'm not sure how that maters today, because until we get a mafia flip any and all interactions are theoreticals. We need the first flip to do any scumhunting past witchhunting.

[Thor665]

Mod did a vote count yesterday, just about 24 hours ago - and it's not like the votes have exploded with furor since then nor has the deadline changed.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7022338

RIP wtf

[Thor665]

RIP is not being super helpful; I am still confused about his "I lied" statement

To clarify it - it has to do with his claim, which vacillated from being able to track night 3 to night 4 and other general obfuscation BS he is spewing which is then attached by others to a scum meta of his wherein he, as scum, fakeclaims and spews BS.

He is assuredly spewing BS - that is without doubt at this stage.
The question then becomes "do you think that is something he does as scum (assuredly yes) but not as town (I have heard no one discuss this even though it is at the crux of painitng him as a quality lynch)

If he ends up dead soon, I will be quite happy. But, frankly, the case against that lurker/replace slot pings to me with town paranoia and some semblence of sense - assuredly enough to want to leave him alive for a day to see what happens over and above CDB's obvious game lurk as opposed to site lurk leaves me quite dead as to the idea of making it the wagon today on the case as presented.

I have no idea why anyone is confused about the "lie" at this stage though - you and the eyeglass avatar girl are both expressing that. Why are you confused? And if you are confused - why not do a bit of research; it has been discussed.

I also don't like the speed (not in real time necessarily but on posts) at which that wagon flipped.

Eh - I am very neutral on that and don't see the blatant scum energy considering the playstyle of this game and the amount of time most people seem to be spending on setting their reads.
Who do you think are the scum pushing that shift?

[Thor665]

Thank you for FINALLY coming up with an explanation for your statement. Originally my vote was to pressure you into an explanation for said lie but at this point I really do want to lynch you.
sozzles friend

So you're saying you like his explanation but want to lynch him anyway?
What are you doing?

[Thor665]

Thank you for FINALLY coming up with an explanation for your statement. Originally my vote was to pressure you into an explanation for said lie but at this point I really do want to lynch you.
sozzles friend

So you're saying you like his explanation but want to lynch him anyway?
What are you doing?

I never said I liked it. I still think it's an awful move.

What made it worth pushing him as scum where, prior to that, you were simply pressuring him?

[Thor665]

What made it worth pushing him as scum where, prior to that, you were simply pressuring him?

I've thought RIP was scummy for a while now:

Spoiler: a couple examples

ISO'd Zabing slot aka Riabi and I think that Riabi would also be a decent lynch. Mostly for tunneling Senator but also because he used to be Zabing. He often sits on the sidelines and dodges around questions and doesn't really answer/give an opinion.

So yeah, in order of who I want to lynch at this point: RIP, very closely followed by Kling, and then Riabi.

Vote: KlingonCelt

Jumping to the top of my scum list, you've been on both town lynches and at the moment I'm townreading Sinsun.

RIP has slid a little bit down my scum list (switching places with Kling basically) because he's starting to remind me of a player back "home."

Channel has climbed up my scum list a little bit.

For me, this whole situation is even more incentive to lynch him.

None of that actually resembles reasoning - so basically you're pushing on a gut read to "pressure" him and then are like "oh yeah, but I always found him scummy".
Meh.
I find you just as questionable at this stage.
Let's lynch CDB.

I am for the lynch.

I'm also greedy and want the full scum Monty.

Or as close as possible to it by the time day ends.

I don't want to have to deal with another full day of this.
Vote CDB now.

[Thor665]

Pretty sure you've been at L-1 for many pages. Being the (potentially) awesome (conditional) town tracker you are, it's surprising you haven't been hammered by scum already.

If I was scum and he was town I wouldn't - would you?

At this point, the ONLY chance RIP is town is if ALL the scum are voting him which I find hard to believe. So therefore I believe him to be scum 100% at this point, not a single doubt in my mind about that.

Again - if I was scum, I would not speed hammer him for lulz if he was town - would you if you were scum and not voting him?

Today we lynch RIP, tomorrow CDB and from there hopefully we have more concrete reads on those protecting the two.

So how about we lynch CDB today and Rip tomorrow then? If we're lining up lynches let's go with CDB first, I'm down to at least support you on that.
Frankly, if you think hey're both potential scum I would think that CDB havingg 4 separate counterwagons pushing to avoid his lynch would be more off-putting to you than Rip, no?

[Thor665]

Thor, the CDB lynch is for information. The RIP lynch is because he's acting super scummy.

I rather disagree with you on that. I think the RIP case is an annoyance based one, and I'm fine with that - and I even think there is some scum flavor there, but hardly a giant wall as compared to CDB.

Do me a favor - go check CDB's activity on site, then in this game, and then get back to me and tell me he's not being scummy and is just an 'info lynch'.

I'll wait.

Thor, it would hardly be a quick hammer at this point. Why do you think scum would fear the hammer if RIP is town?

I'm not saying they would or wouldn't fear the hammer - I'm saying if I was scum I wouldn't do it if he was town (I'd certainly do it if he was scum and my buddy though, barring a useful PR) and I'm questioning the people who are claiming that because he's not hammered he *is* scum.

Anyone saying that is making the case - they need to back it up.
Do you disagree?

I am voting RIP since I don't find his claim that believable and he is ad homming me like a good little scum.

Eh - I will admit I skimmed that conversation like a beast, but he's shown omgus and ad hom throught the game as I recall. Dunno why you think that's his scum only play.

think he's plenty capable of playing like this as either alignment so how should we tell the difference?

I don't think we can tell the difference - it's why I don't like the people pushing the case with that as a reason. If I can't tell the difference I'm pretty sure they can't either, so why are they pissing on my leg and claiming it's rain?
Conversely people are being very honest and clear about their reasons for lynching CDB, those reasons are not forced, and though people are complaining they are not enough, I like the honesty of the wagon more, and also like how difficult it has been as a value call far more than the "he's not hammered yet!" crowd...which even if they think that's a thing, theoretically should apply to CDB too - so why aren't they applying it? It's weird to me.

C'mon Nero, let's give him a day to get a result and reassess - I really want this CDB lynch.
Do you think CDB is town?
Like - in any way at all?

Also Thor, if RIP is scum do you think his "clear" on CBD says anything about him?

I must have missed the claimed 'clear' but considering what he's currently claiming it was a lie that he never intended to back up, so it's basically just stupid play regardless of his alignment, yeah?
I don't really draw any conclusions from it in thinking about it, nor does it change my desire to see CDB dead - should I or should it?

I want to lynch him because I believe he is scum. I thought he was scum before and I think he is scum now. All that happened was he moved up my priority list when he didn't explain what he meant by "I lied" (presumably until his scumbuds could tell him how to attempt to fix the situation. That's part of the reason why I think his explanation is BS, if he had come up with a reason in a timely manner then it wouldn't look like he had to get help in a scumchat). You can't say "I lied" and then not expand on that and then get mad and insult/accuse everyone who votes for you and expect people to go "oh wait he claimed, that must make him town =^)" and unvote.

You're arguing he's derp scum, getting daytalk advice from scumbuddies, yet still going off reservation with the stuff he's been saying thus far?
If I'd been his bud he would have had serious walking papers after that Day 3/4 nonsense yesterday - I'm not seeing this. The concept of your scum case for him is starting to require a lot of weird attached things from your point of a few hours ago of 'gut and I was pressuring him'.

[Thor665]

@KlingonCelt - I will agree that this game seems massively averse to the idea of lynching CDB, yes.

I don't think you're selling me like you think you're selling me.
I've also claimed to have some town vibes off RIP -so you're *really* not selling me the way you seem to think you're selling me.

[Thor665]

Though currently CDB is at L-4.

I *do* think 4 votes in 49 hours should be pretty freakin' doable.

[Thor665]

KlingonCelt[2]: Suzune, RIP

As frontrunners for "our votes are useless" we have these guys.
Also we have AA and CDB, if either of them ever comes back to the game.

[Thor665]

So, if CDB shows up, you should get your lynch - but I'll assuredly get RIP, meaning I only need 3 other votes.
If you move I only need 2.
I also think I half have Suzune, seeing as how she is also supporting a wagon RIP is on - so maybe I only need one if you move.

Wanna move?

[Thor665]

RIP scum prob points to CDB town though.

I would guardedly agree to that.

[Thor665]

Thor, you better be right.

Okay?

The town has been going around and around for days. Looking at the same people.

I don't think that's true at all - CDB has only really been issues for this phase and last phase. RIP has only been an issue for this phase.
Also, if someone is a hot scum read last phase, it *makes sense* that they would continue to be an issue next phase barring a change of info. There has been no change of info.

Unfortunately I do think it's that hard. If you have to get to the point where you are choosing between lynching a vt or a town power role and you cannot decide. That should the red flag.

I don't understand what you're saying here - clarify?

But it is time to think outside the box or we will lose.

Town has only had 2 lynches to itself, and no scum flips - I think your railing against the past monolithic methadology is somewhat misplaced.
I will agree we need to lynch scum - but that is true regardless.
I see no evidence that there is a past pogrom that people are married to, nor that it is leading them astray - I will note I am probably as strong a candidate for "tunneled" as you can list in this game. I opposed the Senator lynch yesterday. So, functionally, me trying to get CDB lynched *is* a new idea insomuch as I appear to have been right in my reads thus far.

[Thor665]

Yeah not touching the CDB wagon. It's a mislynch being offered to avoid Thor/Nero

What game are you reading?
I'm not even in the least amount of lynch threat, and Nero is barely a wagon.

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

CDB flipping town was just a slap in the face.

I don't think that's really true - it was always a 50/50.

[Thor665]

Yes - I never said it was a bad wagon to push through. What I said was that it shouldn't feel like a slap that it flipped town and was a 50/50 - a number I touted *during* the push on him, as I recall.
So do you have a point? Or were you just going for the empty rhetoric jab?

[Thor665]

Oh, wait, am I supposed to pretend that I'm gutted for *gasp* being wrong in a game of Mafia?
I must have missed the memo.

[Thor665]

My point is that you're high on my suspect list for pushing what was, in my view, a terrible wagon. It's one thing if you had good reasoning, but, I never felt like there was any good reason to vote CDB.

Okay?
I disagree with you - there was good value in that wagon, and CDB played like scum for the entirety of that day phase.

[Thor665]

Frankly - the blind defense of that play is kind of weird.
Even if you though my case on Day 3 was bad - by Day 4 CDB basically claimed scum and lurked out...yet you still think it was a bad wagon then? Meh.

[Thor665]

Actually - I'd like to hear your value call on CDB's play yesterday and my lurk case on him.
Y'know - since you thought there was "never" a reason to vote him.

[Thor665]

Sure, he was lurking, but I don't find lurking to be alignment indicative. I've been burned on that assumption too many times.

Sure - except I didn't call him scummy for lurking in general - I called him scummy for lurking in this game while specifically not lurking in any of his other ongoing games.
Which is quite different.

Frankly - the blind defense of that play is kind of weird.

I'm not actually defending his play, it wasn't great. I was (and have been) questioning (what is primarily) your case against him, and questioning the motivation behind it.

You're not?
You said there was nothing to find him scummy over...so now you're saying that his play was "bad" but "not scummy at all"? I feel like you're splitting hairs here, no? You're the one saying the attack was bad - shouldn't you be able to defend that stance?

[Thor665]

Wonder if Thor can explain the thing about being a named townie to me.

Sure.
I'm a named townie.
What else is there to explain exactly?
You need to clarify the confusion if you want education.

[Thor665]

You're still not explaining your question.

[Thor665]

I mean, if you don't want an answer and just wish to point out that Thor is often condescending to silly commentary - mission accomplished.
But I don't think that comes as a shock to anyone.
Did you even have a question?

[Thor665]

I mean, if I had to guess at your question - my counter question would be "show me all the examples of 'named scum' in any game anywhere ever.
Then that should tehoretically sort it out.
But that presumes that your confusion is "why is a named townie town?" but maybe your issue is "how are you a named townie" or maybe your issue is "why is this clearly not a gambit" o maybe your question is "what even is a named townie"

I have better things to do then answer all these questions.
So ask what you need to learn - and play the game functionally that way instead of doing this.

[Thor665]

Thor, can you explain what you mean when you say you are a "named townie"? Specifically in this game...

Because my role exists for the purpose of presenting my name.
A named townie is an innocent child lite - more doubt worthy, but built for the purpose of a soft clear.
If you didn't understand this you should have said something when I first claimed it.

every town player who's died so far has had a unique name
how is your role pm different

Read the above, you apparently don't understand what a named townie is. After reading the above - ask what you need to clarify this info.

Having a unique name doesn't prove shit. I'll be that Scum have unique fakeclaim names as well.

I'm starting to doubt Thor.

What are you even talking about?
I'm *not* claiming that I have a role with a name and thus am town. That would be stupid and make no sense, and if you *did* think that is what I was doing you should be racting a LOT stronger than "doubt".

So what do you think I'm claiming and why does it only create the start of doubt in you as opposed to dismissing me as a dolt?

[Thor665]

Please be more detailed. What do you mean by "Innocent Child Lite"?

I mean innocent childe but not as powerful.

Are you saying that, like with an innocent child, the moderator can be bade to post in-thread that your role is a given name?

Why in the universe would you think that?

If that's true, why didn't you have the moderator do that when you first claimed?

[Thor665]

Okay - baby steps;

1. Innocent Child Lite - the word "lite" is used as presented here; http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lite the term to note would be definition #2
Innocent Child is presented here: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... cent_Child

2. As a portmanteau (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/portmanteau - again, #2) of the two concepts what I am attempting to suggest is a combination of them to be read as one concept.

3. Boiled down - an Inocent Child is a mod confirmed townie.

4. By using the word "lite" I am saying I am a lesser version of this.

5. You can't really be a lesser version of mod confirmed while still being mod confirmed - so your whole "have the mod confirm you" is pretty clearly rather silly to request - and is a waste of time that annoys me.

6. What I actually am, is a named townie - which is, something that was built into the game to create a likely mod confirmed town, as the only value and/or purpose of my role is to, by dint of the role, show that I am not likely a scum slot.

7. You can gather this because it is rather unlikely that the mod would choose to hamstring a scum role with something that is, by definition, the opposite of the purpose of scum (to blend in and not have to reveal a fake claim)

8. There are potentially valid reasons to doubt this - none of which anyone is even close to, and all of which I've offered to debate. There might be more, but I am unaware of them. I only really have issue with Titus about it though, as she's the only one doubting it who I think is smart enough to grok how clear I already am, and even had an earlier conversation with me about it that she's now basically acting like it never happened.

9. I apologize for thinking that anyone understood this deep concept. My bad!

Any other questions?

[Thor665]

Wonder if Thor can explain the thing about being a named townie to me.

Sure.
I'm a named townie.
What else is there to explain exactly?
You need to clarify the confusion if you want education.

I looked and didn't see this claim.

What are you talking about? You are aware that I'm not the only player who has held this slot - yeah?

With that said,

@Thor

- who are you claiming to be, again?

Do you recall the Rumpelstiltskin thing on Day 1?
If not - then that's who I'm claiming.

You really can't seem to grasp what I'm trying to ask of you and I think that incapacity stems from excessive readiness to assume that others are stupid.

Or the *fact* that you're not actually asking me clear questions. Let's see if you do it this time in your quest for understanding.

You should try using the principle of charity sometime, thor. The principle of charity requires interpreting a speaker's statements to be rational and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation. Even if if your interpretation turns out to be wrong, you'll at least avoid spending time making long and useless posts.

Nope...you lecture me about stuff and complain that I'm not answering your question.

Wonder why I think you're asking questions badly?
No idea, really.

[Thor665]

If someone with communication skills understands what Thor means by "Named Townie", could they please explain it to me and why I should care?

Like - is this your question?
You mean my "baby steps" post didn't manage to convey 'named townie' to you?
HOW?
WHAT IS STILL CONFUSING?
YOU NEED TO TELL US - SO WE CAN ANSWER.

Like, give me an example of a role pm that a Named Townie might have.

The link that Pere provided *did exactly this multiple times* so it doesn't appear to be what you need - or you did not click the link and read it.

[Thor665]

such a piece of work

^^^
Also not a question nor clarification.

[Thor665]

Do you recall the Rumpelstiltskin thing on Day 1?
If not - then that's who I'm claiming.

OK, just looked it over. Is there a "role" attached to that name, because I think that is what Psyche is asking for.

So you're asking for a full claim - with no L-1 wagon on me and the biggest raised issue being Titus' non-case and some other people being unable to grok that I'm clear and having a pseudo-case of "he's a potential suspect"?

I'mma go with - no.

[Thor665]

Also, I don't think that's what Psyche is asking for at all - but then again I'm a bad communicator.

[Thor665]

I'mma go with - no.

[Thor665]

If 'post restricted townie' doesn't do it for you, than nothing further I clarify will make me any more obviously town or more obviously fakeclaiming scum.
So pick one and move on with the evidence in front of you - why is this difficult?

[Thor665]

Like - if I claimed 'post restricted watcher' then I would either be town or fakeclaiming scum.
If I claimed any other PR attached to the post restriction - same deal.
Also, same deal if I claimed non-PR town.

Literally that is only helpful to scum - or to sort me at the singular moment that enough people find me to be scummy to be pushing me to a lynch situation.
I oppose the former - and refuse to consider the other unless town and/or scum goes through the effort of at least creating a wagon so we can analyze it.

What are you smoking, Pere?

[Thor665]

I'm at 'derp play' myself.
What are you going with?

[Thor665]

If you were watcher specifically, you would have saw everyone hitting Suzune last night and would spill it and win us the game.

If you claimed another PR, it may or may not be confirm-able.

If you claimed non-PR, it might also be confirmable.

1. That would not win us the game in any way at all.
2. Yes, but pay attention to #3
3. Yes, which casts doubt on why it would matter then.

Claiming too soon is bad for town because scum know who to kill. At this point, we are at 9-5 or 9-4-1, so I was hoping your claim would have more value in confirming you town than in hiding you from scum.

I'm already a known enough commodity in that respect unless you can explain something I'm really missing.
What are you smoking Pere?

The link that Pere provided *did exactly this multiple times* so it doesn't appear to be what you need - or you did not click the link and read it.

there is no role pm in the link

Sure - just...y'know....roles.
Or would the way the mod wrote up those role PMs change things somehow?

and in fact it's still ambiguous what makes you a named townie;
for example, we don't know what "useless" pr you have
your explanation of your role ("innocent child lite") combined with the wording left so much ambiguous that I found myself unable to really follow your claim
i'm really not the only person itt who didn't understand so please don't hurt me

So...basically you want a full claim from me and that's the only way to remove ambiguity for you?
That seems weird.
Especially since just the claim of post restricted serves, alone, as a valid stance for named townie - do you not grok how that works?

I think Thor claimed Post-Restricted Townie.
Whatever it is, we should probably just check his posts for scumminess like we do anybody else's.

Oh, okay, so your confusion was because you hadn't even been aware of that...even though I literally had just said it in conversation with you and Pere.
Do you grok now?

I just find having to claim when RIP had nothing on me p ridiculous. Its not pro-town on his part.

but also http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Rumpelstiltskin

Your claiming Rumpelstilskin?

Vote: Pere

And to claim you're reading?
At best you're skimming - very light skimming.
No me gusta.

A player can be playing poorly and still be townie, I'm not sure how that's splitting hairs.

So why do you think his bad play came across so alignment neutral as to make my attack of it bad?
Because if you can't explain that - you are splitting hairs as far as I can tell.

[Thor665]

Okay - so let's walk through two questions;

1. Do you think, if the claim is true, scum would likely have this role? (if yes my rejoinder is to disagree with you - but this will end the conversation)

2. Do you think my previous slot holder struck you as the type of scum to go for the long con in faking this role?

[Thor665]

if it's a useless role, then what's the rationale in not full claiming?

it seems that its only use is in being claimed so that you can clear yourself

*cough*NamedTownie*cough*

I agree with you.
Yes.

[Thor665]

Also, maybe a misconception I'm seeing on your part;

The "post restricted" is the useless part.
Make more sense now?

[Thor665]

I agree - I never said it was.
have other posts you may have missed right before that.

[Thor665]

okay archmage is town so thor is town
we can now lynch people who have called thor scum

That would be you, Ika, Titus, and Riabi as I recall.

@thor: What do you think of 3228? Am I being too quick to accept this explanation? I tend to do that at times...

What do you think that "explanation" serves as? I see nothing that effects my issue with the slot.

actually
pere can also be town

I'll second the 'why?' on this statement.

if thor realllly thinks titus is scum i'm willing to go with that too

I also think Pere is scum, and for basically the same core logic of 'playing intentionally poorly' so why are you okay with the one and not the other?

1. you are correct it would not win us the game in any way. However, it would tell us who has a active power role as opposed to a passive one. That kind of information is important for the town and will aid it. You could use it to force people to role claim based on what we know happened last night. This would clear up a lot of interesting things and might eliminate the number of suspects that we have. Why does no one else think like this? We need to use the roles we have as a town to our ability now. They cannot kill us all at night but we might be able to determine who would most make the kill and that would heavily aid the town.

By this logic we should massclaim.
Would you support massclaim?
If so - why are you not pushing it?
In not - what do you see as the difference?

Seriously Thor what is your problem with claiming. You have been dancing around it all phase. Unless you are the hero or something you are basically saying you are the watcher and if you aren't then clearly you are leaning heavily on mafia. So what be it?

I really don't understand what you're saying here, so can't really respond properly. If me not being a Watcher makes me scum...okay?

I mean seriously have what role. A post restricting role. It sounds like a totally believable scum ability to me. Like a silencer.

Do you even understand what I'm saying when I say Post restricted? Because it really looks like you don't. Which leads us to...

Do you think my previous slot holder struck you as the type of scum to go for the long con in faking this role?

Since I have known you for three phases now, do you think it matters what you slot holder did on day one?

Well...for *starters* reading him would probably clue you in to what I mean by 'post restricted'.
Second off - yes, I *do* think that every single player who occupies a slot can help you learn the alignment of he slot.
I also think it is very applicable to the question of my claim on multiple fronts - since he's the one who did it,a nd I replaced in after the fact.

PeregrineV[1]: Nero Cain

[/area]

Vote: Pere

@Mod

Vote: Pere
Vote: PeregrineV

[Thor665]

I am not pushing for a massclaim, because mass claims are boring. The difference I was suggesting was that if you were a watcher, you would have seen who is an active power role. By seeing who is an active power role we can work out who among those who attacked could be mafia.

Yeah...so, basically, I would have a list of Town PRs and 1 (or maybe more) scum.
I could then offer that list and...what?
Or I could not offer the list and just say 'I suspect this guy' which would be indistinguishable from what I'm doing.
I don't understand what you want or think here nor why you think it is pro-town.

You have been playing with your claim all round. It is driving me crazy. That is all that second message reads.

I have not played with my claim at all - my stance has remained constant. What I am dealing with is multiple people randomly requesting I claim with no actual sensible reasoning behind the idea. That is not me "playing" with anything. That is me repeatedly saying 'no' or repeatedly asking 'why would that help?' Neither of which affect my claim.

Apparently then i do not know what post restricted means in this form. One would consider it to mean you cannot say certain things, post a certain number of times, or something of the like. There was a post restricted earlier in the game they spoke in rhymes.

Yeah...that rhyme guy, weird that.

Are you kidding me?

pere is a hunch
he's always sort of disengaged
but this time he's comparatively more searching

Examples?
I don't feel this about Pere as a player.

[Thor665]

@Suzune - in addition to looking up that random rhyming guy, could you explain how I'm "playing" with my claim?
Like, *very* specifically?

[Thor665]

1. It did last game (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4686165)

I'm not smoking anything, and you know this.

Actually, dave seemed to get what I was pointing out with Nero's posts, although it had to be pointed out to him. Since I assume you read his posts also, how you are not getting it?

As a matter of fact, other than your stated "no read" on Nero, you've had surprising little interaction with him. And conversely, he with you. It reads like some sort of weird Q&A that neither of you seem to give 2 shits about the answer the other one gives, because it doesn't seem to go beyond that.

And combine that with a "No me gusta" vote on me at this point?

Kind of thinking you are scum with Nero at this point. Which would make more sense with the answers you've given to many questions.

1. I looked at that one - there is nothing even close to the same evidenciary situation you are talking about here in that game.

I think you are smoking something - because I give you the benefit of the doubt of being more clever than you appear to be acting. If I'm wrong clue me in, I'll agree there is some confbias in that belief, but you feel shockingly lackluster right now. Like, even your response to #1 - are you kidding me? You must be smoking something to toss that out as remotely the same situation as here - yeah?

I think I "get" what you're going at - I just disagree that it's a good sign for you and also kind of think you're lying about it in any case.

I will agree that I have not particularly interacted with Nero. I have not particularly interacted with a decent sized chunk of this game, frankly, so it's an easy point to level against me.

Yes - "no me gusta".

Eh, see how that one flies, Orville.

[Thor665]

I mean, frankly, prior to this point I hadn't interacted with you - are we scumbuddies and this is a bus?

This is why you feel lacking. No me gusta, Pere, no me gusta.

[Thor665]

That information is not indicated in the role PM.

[Thor665]

Want to vote Pere while you wait?

[Thor665]

@Thor

Yeah...so, basically, I would have a list of Town PRs and 1 (or maybe more) scum.
I could then offer that list and...what?
Or I could not offer the list and just say 'I suspect this guy' which would be indistinguishable from what I'm doing.
I don't understand what you want or think here nor why you think it is pro-town.

I am uncertain what you do not understand about what I am saying. This is a simple role. When a watcher or tracker gets a result that will favor the town. They begin to look through ISO for something to prove that what they are doing might be shady and make connections. As far as I can see, this is the way the role is played. I have played many watchers in the last year and you just need to be credible. Do you know know how to play one? Or quick obviously you are not one because despite your love to argue that you are correct I see no reason to push me for how to play a role. All roles are important to the game, I should not have to coach you on how to play one. Don't get me wrong, I like to hand out free information sometimes but clearly you can handle it.

I fail to understand what you're arguing now.
As far as I can tell you seem to be debating if I know how to play as a Watcher (okay...) but without addressing why a Watcher should claim result (which I thought you were arguing earlier) and appear to be arguing that a Watcher should just use their result to assess things (which for all you know, I'm doing - so why are you suggesting that I'm playing Watcher badly?)

???

So are you the watcher or aren't you the watcher. Which is it? How many times are we going to go in circles about it? There is your specifically.

I am not claiming Watcher nor am I claiming non-Watcher, nor have I ever done so at any point in this game.
I have (repeatedly) stated that I am not claiming for no reason beyond random people asking me to claim.
So - to this additional random request - no, I am not claiming.

[Thor665]

Vote: St Augustine the Hermit

Could also still do Pere, frankly.

[Thor665]

Vote: St Augustine the Hermit

Could also still do Pere, frankly.

While I don't necessarily disagree, why?

Pere for reasons stated yesterday.
St. Augustine because, looking at the wagon, it's the first vote that feels buss-y to me besides Psyche's and I am mildly buying into the idea Narn checked him so rule him out. Sinsum's vote is also a bit iffy, but I consider the St. Augustine slot to be overall more ecchy.