Mini 1697 - a Re-balanced Game of Mafia - GAME OVER

[Thesp]

Hello everyone! I tend to be less active on weekends, so I'm just checking in quickly here. I would like to know three things of everyone:
1) How much Mafia have you played before (in person or online)?
2) How active are you typically in a Mafia game? That is, is there sort of a posts per day frequency that's approximately typical for you?
3) Are you scum?

[Thesp]

I don't have a lot of time to check in right now before bed, but I do want to say...

I am currently in this game with fire where he seems a lot newbier than here could possibly mean he is town but maybe. We'lol see

Please don't discuss ongoing games

, even innocently-seeming like this. The site has very, very strict rules about this for a variety of reasons which are generally for very good reasons. Even if it seems harmless, please avoid it going forward.

I appreciate the responses to my questions, they are helping me get a better sense of who's who.

VOTE: unvote

The votecounter will misinterpret this, by the way. Instead, what you'll want to do is this (wrapping this in quotes to avoid confusing the votecounter):

Code: Select all

[unvote]Player[/unvote]

Sometimes a joke is just a joke.

Usually it is, but it's still worth investigating.

This is a very interesting remark from someone who claimed scum.

[Thesp]

I've finally found the thread. Lol.

And...?

Post or Perish.

---

Like, then he comes back and addresses the ongoing game issue but doesn't comment at all on alignment, nor any of the responses.

My apologies, I didn't think it to be as interesting as you apparently do. I'm liking Alchemist21's points re: RadiantCowbells's potential hypocrisy.

Like, Thesp's deliberate attempt to undo progress made in the game

Wha? Are you seriously characterizing your post #7 as progress in the game, and my inquiries to all players as an attempt to undo that?

Would it make a difference if you were to learn that I always open games by asking questions of everyone? Also, I appreciate the content so far (misguided as I think it may be), but I would also appreciate your responses to my questions earlier, and hope it's not too much of an imposition.

---

This comment from Thesp looks like scumhunting but really isn't. He's not analyzing Pistachi0n's alignment, he's not asking her anything meaningful. It's like information instead of analysis, except it's not even informative.

This is fair - though I was really hoping to see pistachi0n's next post before I comment further on this.

---

I'd still like responses from PMysterious and Sword Master as well. I'm honestly a bit dumbfounded that my opening questions have garnered the specific type of attention I'm getting from RadiantCowbells. (I sometimes get stick-in-the-mud types who insist on not answering and making a big deal about that, but those types are more likely scum in my recent experience.) I'm not feeling the "Thesp is changing the subject" angle as feeling very genuine. That said, I'm not interested in a RadiantCowbells lynch today.

I expect I'll place a vote in the next 24 hours, and it's quite possibly on a lurker (or on someone else within a different parameter I'll mention later).

[Thesp]

Why are you doubling down on this?

RVS is over.

You trying to drag me back to this strikes me as odd.

No, I'm curious if your reaction to my opening post is different if I open every game I play in a similar manner. (It appears to be a strong basis for your vote on me, so I feel it's worth exploring. I'm still curious - would it affect your read to know I always open the same way?) Thank you for your responses to my other questions!

Wait wait wait.

What do you want?

That's an interesting reaction to a single RVS vote.

Firebringer is awfully defensive.

Nothing here indicates a non-RVS vote to you?

Not in a terribly strong or interesting way. I don't seem to be the only person with that sentiment. As an aside from a policy standpoint, I can't imagine it would be beneficial to tunnel on one person before half the player list had posted.

[Thesp]

I'm feeling really shitty about mafia right now.

I don't feel like doing this.

I'm sorry to hear that. Take a day off if you need to do so, we'll still be here. I hope you can enjoy the game rather than get too wrapped up in it.

---

This comment from Thesp looks like scumhunting but really isn't. He's not analyzing Pistachi0n's alignment, he's not asking her anything meaningful. It's like information instead of analysis, except it's not even informative.

This is fair - though I was really hoping to see pistachi0n's next post before I comment further on this.

Pistachi0n posted after this in 103, and your 109 didn't comment further on it. Why not?

Her response wasn't as interesting as I'd hoped it would be.

---

Would you all agree that I'm either causing or contributing to a negative play experience in this game?

No.

---

I'm not keen on the RadiantCowbells wagon. I don't mind the Firebringer wagon. All Alone rubs me the wrong way kind of, but I feel like that's because of the vote on me. While I agree with a lot of what eventi says, he seems to be ignoring (or not commenting) on a lot of other things, which I'm not keen on.

VOTE: Sword Master
Post or Perish. I'm just as happy to move my vote to eventi, and if I had two separate votes that's where they would be.

[Thesp]

@Thesp, if you liked my points on RC, AND think that types who attack your RQS like she did tend to be scum, then why aren't you voting her instead of someone who only has a single post in the game?

Good question! As to why not RadiantCowbells, I feel like the recent couple of posts from him feel genuine, and in part I'm not terribly interested in an early Day 1 lynch on someone who has contributed as much as he has, and in part a number of the votes on RadiantCowbells feel sketchy (esp. eventi). I'm voting someone who has a single post in the game because that post was absolute crap and I want them pulled into the game. (No way when they come back should they be allowed to make a post like that, and I want to make that perfectly clear.) I think it's very important on Day 1 to pull as many people into the conversation as possible, and I have zero problems using a lynch to make that happen if need be. I don't want scum skating by, I want plenty of reasonable chances to catch them.

[Thesp]

[total aside]

Why the hell would I tell my scumread why I think they're scum?

It warms my heart to see someone else expressing this notion, when I feel like saying this nearly every game to someone. [/total aside]

---

I'll move my vote to

eventi

as he looks like an opportunistic scum.

:hifive:

---

What do you think I should have commented on that I didn't?

I wasn't expecting a blow-by-blow commentary on the whole game, but not having mentioned any other player at that point feels very odd to me.

I think this is a pretty good Day 1, actually.

[Thesp]

Sorry for my absence today, I've been sick.

---

Are you saying that I'm willfully

ignoring

something in my argument; that I'm being intentionally misleading?

When there have been a few pages of material, and the

only

thing posted by a player jumping in is a case and vote on the leading wagon, it gives me pause.

---

I'm thinking TheDominator37 is scum. I don't like #210.

---

Meh. I think RC is tryhard town. She's NOT worth lynching right now simply because she is movign the game. She'll catch herself up later on in the game if shes scum.

She's not a good D1 lynch at all.

That said, I don't look for buddy combo's day one. I don't think it's worth exploration before the first flip. I'm aware that's not common, but trying to tie people together D1 has consistently in the post caused me to make major mistakes and I've lost town games simply by doing that.

Mostly because I'm aware I can be manipulated later on if I start talking about my tie-ins early.

I agree SO MUCH with this post, save the bit about not finding buddies D1.

---

I like the Eventi wagon.

:hifive:

---

...but I want to engage some other players for a while.

VOTE: Duppin

Where is this guy?

I approve of this! At the same time, it feels like you're looking for a way off the RadiantCowbells wagon in a discreet way. Why vote Duppin over Sword Master?

---

Current favorites for scum: Eventis, TheDominator37, Sword Master. Alchemist21 gets an Honorable Mention.

[Thesp]

davesaz, thanks for immediate posts!

UNVOTE: davesaz

Whoa now, gotta let down a little. This could ruin any chance of any more D1 talk. Slow the votes guys, and let's see if we can find his partners.

There's been practically nothing from you this whole game. Do you still think eventi and TheDominator37 are best bets for scum?

---

As previously stated I believe that was a scum train, so I'd like to look at the people who voted on her. (Alchemist, Firebringer, eventi and TheDominator.

Anyway, I have Alchemist and RC as town and Firebringer is leaning town.

Why do you have Alchemist and Firebringer in the town column?

Nether and eventi are looking like scum buddies VOTE: nether

He calls out eventi, the other person I find suspicious. I am not sure I like the vote on Nether though, I would have prefered if we had voted on eventi.

I agree with this.

---

I think this is a legitimate town-slip from Firebringer.

I don't think he really meant that there are exactly TWO scum in the game.
He just meant that both of us could be scum in his opinion.

Firebringer, is this accurate?

---

Updated favorites for scum: eventi, TheDominator37, PMysterious.

VOTE: eventi

I'm equally happy with a TheDominator37 lynch. I typically have little tolerance for self-votes.

[Thesp]

I'm all caught up, now I need to think about it a bit.
Off the top of my head I'm getting scum vibes that match with Thesp's really well.

:hifive:

---

So PMysterious you have any reads? This feels like your first post in the game. I had to actually look back and see that you were in the game.

Been very lurking this game.

So far I think Nether and Raidant are most likely scum or at least one. If only one then I have no clue on the other. Perhaps dupin.

Anyways going to V/LA till Sunday. Will try to post 1 or 2 times till then, but no promises.

I'm certain Dominator is scum, but like I said, lynching him too early will cause less time for day talk. As for eventi, I'm certain he/she is probably scum too, but odds are probably not exactly the smartest of townies. For now, I'm certain there's nothing coming out of eventi, so I'll lay back on that.

UNVOTE:

Third scum confirmed!

So, here's the plan.
1. Today, we lynch eventi.
2. Tomorrow, we lynch TheDominator37.
3. On D3, we lynch PMysterious.

That's the end of the plan, because by then we will have won. I'm open to discussing changing the order on these, but I'm pretty happy with killing all of them.

[Thesp]

I haven't seen anything terribly compelling this weekend, other than I wouldn't mind if Firebringer died, and I like All Alone's case on TheDominator37.

eventi's wagon seems to have nearly dissipated, so...

UNVOTE: eventi
VOTE: TheDominator37

I'm still happy lynching either one, or even PMysterious. I'd like to see us move towards a lynch or at least real threat-to-lynch very soon, so we're not forced by a deadline. Remember, if we hit deadline without a lynch, it's a no-lynch, which is one fewer opportunity for us in this setup, and something scum would love. We've got plenty to work on, there's no reason we couldn't do a lynch several days before our deadline. Let's move, people.

[Thesp]

The deadline is 5 days from now.

And now it's even closer to deadline.

I'm not feeling the Netherspite wagon at all. I'd still prefer an eventi wagon, but very happy with my TheDominator37 vote, and would be quite happy with PMysterious pressure/lynch as well. I'd also love to see some prods and a votecount.

[Thesp]

I think it's a shame we're letting TheDominator get away with his behavior

I can't argue with you there! Same could be said of PMysterious.

---

Why dont you like the Nether wagon Thesp and duppin? Because Eventi?

Netherspite feels pretty genuine to me. Also, there are at least 4 better vote candidates, even if I didn't feel he was genuine.

Everyone wants to vote Dom, he is probably just town.

What in the world has given you the impression that he's probably town?

[Thesp]

I think it's a shame we're letting TheDominator get away with his behavior

That's why you're voting

Thesp

instead of him?

Also, what exactly happened between #290 where you call him just a clown and #316 where you seem to be first time suspecting him?

Oh my goodness that's amazing. It would be so great to lynch both eventi and TheDominator37.

[Thesp]

With the deadline looming, we need a lynch pronto.

If you're not on Netherspite, TheDominator37, or eventi, you'd better move to one of them or come up with a very, very good reason for not doing so

now

.

I'm happy lynching TheDominator37 or eventi, and will move my vote to either to secure a lynch. I am opposed to a Netherspite lynch.

RadiantCowbells, PMysterious, davesaz, I'm looking at you.

[Thesp]

Because i havent decided. Surely that is obvious.

No. It was not obvious.

At this point, you've got plenty to work from to make an educated guess. Remaining on the sidelines at this point only increases the chance of a no-lynch, which is very, very bad with this setup. We only have a certain number of lynches, and no-lynching removes one of them from our arsenal.

Move.

Get to lynching.

[Thesp]

Wouldn't scum want day to go shorter?

Not inherently. (For example, there's a point of diminishing returns where more content is counter-productive.) In this case, though, there's a real threat of no-lynch with three competing wagons and some general inactivity (including a search for a replacement). Scum want this to drag to no-lynch. I'm skeptical that a hurried deadline lynch with a few more pages of content in a 16-page game is better than a calculated lynch at this point.

Still happy lynching either TheDominator37 or eventi. I don't buy the "gambit" bit TheDominator37 has claimed.

[Thesp]

I'm showing as an unofficial votecount:

eventi

(5): Netherspite, pistachi0n, TheDominator37, davesaz, duppin

TheDominator37

(3): All Alone, Thesp, eventi

Netherspite

(3): Quaroath, Alchemist21, Firebringer

Firebringer

(1): RadiantCowbells

Not Voting

(1): PMysterious

---

I'm happy to switch to eventi, which would put us at 6 of 7 needed to lynch, with 2 days to go. Time to claim?

[Thesp]

VOTE: eventi

[Thesp]

VOTE: eventi

This is L-1 (I suppose you forgot?)

I did not forget. Happy with this lynch.

[Thesp]

I'm going to be out of town this weekend, and will try to check in via mobile to switch my vote as needed to secure a lynch, but I'm still thinking eventi is scum. Would certainly be willing to switch to TheDominator37, but it looks like that wagon has entirely evaporated. I would strongly consider a Firebringer lynch if needed (and would do so to prevent no-lynch), but a Netherspite lynch is just terribad.

I absolutely do not like cop/doc directing. Super super super negative points to Persivul for that.

[Thesp]

Okay, I'm resetting my reads. The Firebringer kill disturbs me a lot and I can't think of any reason why he would be the kill over half of the players still alive.

That'll happen sometime tomorrow.

This is the same for me - I have a lot of catching up to do after being out of town and my anniversary yesterday (13 years!). I'll try to read up, but the Firebringer kill is one I wouldn't have predicted. (Maybe avoiding a doc protect? I'm happy not to have the distraction in any case.)

I have seen several people saying that some others were confirmed in twilight by reactions to things - I'd love to hear why, as I didn't have any reactions or feelings as to anyone being confirmed.

[Thesp]

I haven't re-read yesterday, but I have read in this sitting from ~page 20.
Reviewing Firebringer's posts from yesterday, here's who I think comes across worse:
Netherspite
RadiantCowbells
Thesp (<-- not actually scum, but does come across worse)

TheDominator37 seems more likely to be town after that kill.

If for some strange reason you will flip town I'll consider

Alchemist

and

Firebringer

to be townier than I currently think.
As for scum I will look among

All Alone

,

Thesp

,

TheDominator37

,

RadiantCowbells

.

Persivul

is also under suspicion for me but it does not depend on your flip.

Netherspite

, why is TheDominator37 on the likelier-to-be-scum list here?

---

Nether, does it concern you at all that out of 6 people on the eventi wagon, you're the only one active in discussion as the phase winds down?

Persivul

, what do you make of this? Also, for what it's worth...

Third...it pretty much sucks that you bring up my meta to indict me and no one has a problem with it...yet when I then defend with meta, duppin and ank view it badly, and say

I'm

the one bringing it up.
...
OK, meta can be used to attack someone, but that person cannot dispute that attack. Got it.

This is how meta (and WIFOM) actually works. When you are reflexively aware of your own meta, it becomes less useful in analyzing you, and if you're consciously aware of it and use it in argument, it is then a tool for you to wield rather than a tool for others to analyze.[/theory]

---

I like duppin's appearance on page 23.

---

eventi - you bastard (assuming you're telling the truth)! Well done though, and I still don't think nether's case was good.

@Persivul

Please do not disappear, I'm curious about your opinion on the 'flip'.

Assuming he's scum, there's at most one scum on his wagon, and likely not even that. I have to agree with duppin that, excluding me, it will be a decent town block to work from.

Persivul seems a lot more skeptical of the scum claim, as if he knows it's hogwash. Hmm.

---

3. I thought it was weird that Pers went from "hammering eventi is scum" to "now that we don't have much time left, I take that back, hammering is good but I'm not going to hammer yet" to finally hammering eventi, the town player.

Pistachi0n

, I didn't get this impression at all - I thought the transition was very normal. Can you point to where you got the feeling from Persivul that "hammering eventi is scum"?

---

Alchemist21's opening vote today rubs me the wrong way.

---

I was online when phase started but purposely waited to see who would push me despite the fact I was vindicated by the flip.

Persivul

, you were vindicated by the flip? How so?

---

How often does 3 townies d2 instantly vote on another town?

duppin

, this is a bad line of argument. I want to hear who you suspect and why, rather than "Odds are good that 1 in 3 is scum!".

And I'd love to see you respond to All Alone's push on you.

I'm not sure what there is to respond to. I asked a question of pistachi0n, didn't find his response interesting, and didn't pursue pistachi0n later in the day. That's accurate. All Alone thinks I was shying away from the limelight by that (if I understand correctly). I wasn't consciously doing so and I'm not sure I agree with his assertion, but it's not terribly interesting overall. I would like to see what All Alone thinks of a wider swath of people. Looking back over him, it's slightly more interesting that he was really sold on Firebringer's townie slip.

---

When Eventi claimed scum in Twilight, Nether and RC caeeied on trying to form reads based on associatives that he was scum. Tbh Nether hammed it up a bit, but considering his overall play it wasn't surprising, and RC just completely fell for it and had the most genuine reaction.

Alchemist21

, is there anyone you feel didn't come across well in twilight?

---

Pistachio town game:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=62219

Pistachio made RVS vote then changed it 4 times D1.

Pistachio scum game:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=62222

Pistachio made RVS vote, never changed it.

This game: made RVS vote, changed it once to eventi.

So, her D1 voting pattern was much closer to her scum game than her town game.

>>> Note to self - come back and review this when you have time. <<<

---

duppin's discussion with Netherspite feels very genuine to me.

---

I'm not happy with TheDominator37 claiming. Grr.

---

I have a lot more questions than I have answers today, and after re-reading I feel a lot different than yesterday. (For example, I think TheDominator37 has been terrible a lot, and I had him as a top candidate for scum, but admittedly a not-insubstantial part of that was born on an eventi link which obviously is incorrect. I think he's town today, much as I wish I didn't, and would hate to lose to him if he did turn out to be scum.) I've taken enough time at this right now and need a break, but I don't like the TheDominator37 wagon at all, and I have mixed feelings about the Persivul wagon (I don't like the tenor of many of his posts from a personal standpoint, and I'm trying to suss out whether my suspicion of him is unfairly tainted by that.)

I'll likely place a vote tomorrow.

[Thesp]

town

Cowbells
Netherspite
Dominator
duppin
Alchemist

Ankamius
pistachi0n
Persivul

davesaz
Thesp

scum

All Alone

, I don't get the feeling you're trying hard in this game, do you have the same feeling about yourself? (I don't mean this as an insult, honest.)

---

VOTE: Dominator

When people claim a Slayer's gambit you can see a shift in their play after they reveal they were gambiting. There's no such shift in Dom's ISO, so I'm comfortable putting a vote here.

I keep coming back to this, and every time I read it this feels like he's making an excuse to vote rather than hunting scum. And whether or not TheDominator was "gambiting", there is a difference in his play from the point of his "reveal" onward (even if there's not much change in sentence structure). There's nothing about Alchemist21 that makes me really think he's town.

VOTE: Alchemist21

I don't hate the Persivul wagon and wouldn't fight it, but I definitely don't want to see a TheDominator37 lynch today. I'm enjoying everything Ankamius is saying, but still don't have a solid read on him yet (probably pro-town?). I like pistachi0n.

[Thesp]

I looked back through and noticed no shift in his posts. Show me what shift you think is there, because as it is now I think Dom was just making up his story about gambiting.

Pre-post #369, he's haphazard with voting and suspicions, voting seemingly arbitrarily and without stated reason. After that, he seems considerably more focused with suspicions and votes. Sure, his sentence structure and punctuation remain poor, but I don't think that's what he considers "the gambit" (and I'd be surprised if that's what you thought as well).

---

I don't think the cop discussion is particularly useful right now, and has a real danger of being counter-productive (if it hasn't been already).

[Thesp]

There's no getting the cat back in the bag now that rc let it out. Of he is cop he should give his result and hope there's a doc. Nothing else to do really and no sense dying with dom unresolved.

NO.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

(READ THE SETUP.)

[Thesp]

For the record, I don't think duppin should even

comment

on whether he's the cop or not.

[Thesp]

thesp how do you get the community contributor thing?

I won a Scummy for my work in creating and maintaining an automatic votecounter (that's even being used in this game!).

[Thesp]

I looked back through and noticed no shift in his posts. Show me what shift you think is there, because as it is now I think Dom was just making up his story about gambiting.

Pre-post #369, he's haphazard with voting and suspicions, voting seemingly arbitrarily and without stated reason. After that, he seems considerably more focused with suspicions and votes. Sure, his sentence structure and punctuation remain poor, but I don't think that's what he considers "the gambit" (and I'd be surprised if that's what you thought as well).

---

I don't think the cop discussion is particularly useful right now, and has a real danger of being counter-productive (if it hasn't been already).

He's still witholdong his reasons. When people claim this gambit, you see them start having more clearly-laid out thought in their posts.

This is a different claim than you made earlier.

---

Pistachi0n, I didn't get this impression at all - I thought the transition was very normal. Can you point to where you got the feeling from Persivul that "hammering eventi is scum"?

Per just hammer eventi already

There's a day and a half left and I just replaced in.

I'm taking an eventi hammer as a scum claim at this point.

Fair enough, I had forgotten that quote. Would it have been better for Persivul not to hammer, and us no-lynch yesterday?

---

you're revealed as the f*cking idiot that you are.

There's no need for this.

---

Still happy with my vote on Alchemist21. As an aside, this is what the votecount probably looks like, let me know if I've got you listed wrong, as I've not double-checked hardly any of it:

Persivul

(3): pistachi0n, RadiantCowbells, Ankamius

Alchemist21

(2): Thesp, TheDominator37

pistachi0n

(1): Persivul

TheDominator37

(1): Alchemist21

Thesp

(1): All Alone

Not Voting

(3): Netherspite, davesaz, duppin

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2015-08-10 18:30:00)

[Thesp]

How is it a different claim from earlier?

This seems like a significant retreat from this...

VOTE: Dominator

When people claim a Slayer's gambit you can see a shift in their play after they reveal they were gambiting. There's no such shift in Dom's ISO, so I'm comfortable putting a vote here.

I looked back through and noticed no shift in his posts.

...to this...

He's still witholdong his reasons. When people claim this gambit, you see them start having more clearly-laid out thought in their posts.

We've moved from his behavior not changing at all to some specific part of his behavior hasn't changed. Couple this with the "let's reinforce that we think duppin is the cop" motif in this last post, I'm super happy with my vote here on Alchemist21. All aboard the train! You'll get :hifives: whether eventi likes them or not.

[Thesp]

Drat and bebother these dwarves!

Can you give me some context to this quote? I don't understand what you're saying.

---

Would it have been better for Persivul not to hammer, and us no-lynch yesterday?

No, I'm very glad someone hammered. I'm just noting that it came from the same person who said a hammer would be a scum claim.

Eh, I think the time difference is important - and he said "I'm taking an eventi hammer as a scum claim at this point.". There are plenty of things to think Persivul is weird about, but this isn't one of them.

---

So this is what troubles me a little. She has not been very active this game, so there is not much to go on.

Low activity isn't indicative of alignment for her. In one game she was scum and used it to her advantage. In another I was scum and used it to my advantage.

I'm not quite understanding - in both of these examples, is pistachi0n the one with the low activity?

---

I'm going to try to catch up to this weekend's events today, particularly since later this week will be a bit sketchy for me (daughter will be in the hospital, minor procedure, but some life upheaval nonetheless). I strongly disagree with any characterization of my activity as "superficial", davesaz. I also don't think my case on Alchemist21 is "reaching", and don't see how he's "obviously town" by any stretch of the imagination. I'd love for everyone voting me to give their opinions on Alchemist21 (and I note that Persivul has weakly, as has TheDominator37 to some extent).

[Thesp]

I haven't been able to carve out as much time as I like, but I would like to keep the game moving. Sorry about that.

btw, Thesp wagon is terrible.

Agreed!

---

@Thesp, what is your case on me beyond the non-existant contradiction?

I'm less interested in the contradiction, and more interested in that it feels like you are looking for a reason to vote rather than looking for scum. Your D1 votes are almost all on people I consider likely to be town. Today, I haven't got the feeling that you're scum hunting at all. This feeling hasn't changed.

---

I feel like I'm missing some answers to some questions I asked previously, but I need to go back and check soon. Sorry I don't have the time to do so now. :/

[Thesp]

In reviewing some of my questions earlier, I see Persivul missed or didn't answer several of mine in #762. Wish I'd caught that sooner. Oh well. :/

---

All Alone

, I don't get the feeling you're trying hard in this game, do you have the same feeling about yourself? (I don't mean this as an insult, honest.)

All Alone

, I missed your answer to this question, do you mind responding?

---

I'll admit my D2 play has been shit because I haven't been focused. If you get that impression from my D1 then I don't know what to tell you. Having conflicting reads isn't a reason to scumread me, especially considering which of us was on and which was off the Eventi wagon.

Having conflicting reads can absolutely be a reason to scumread someone, especially if such "reads" turn up to be actually town. At the same time, I hypocritically acknowledge that my biggest pushes yesterday were eventi and TheDominator37, someone we now know to be town, and someone who I now think is town. If that was all it was, I'd probably write you off, but with yesterday's strong pushes on people-I-think-or-are-known-to-be-dead-town, and no strong pushes today (until recently), it absolutely gives me pause.

---

@Thesp, why exactly were you scumreading Eventi? Was it more than the early call-out?

His vote on Netherspite bothered me a lot, and I felt like he was linked to a scum-TheDominator37. I was really hoping for a two-for-one deal - if eventi was scum, TheDominator37 almost certainly was. Nothing eventi ever said later really made me think I was likely to be wrong about him.

---

Thesp: Can you give your thoughts on the vote spread?

As the vote leader, I'm not fond of it. I'd like to sit down and look at the patterns at some point, but in a pinch, here's a snapshot view. I can't get a feel for All Alone at all (and keep coming back to whether that's deliberate or not), and I don't know what to think of davesaz. I'm a bit surprised to have gotten zero traction on my push for Alchemist21, but maybe people are seeing something I'm not (or TheDominator37's presence here scares people off). I think it's time to start consolidating votes, as we're 5 days away from deadline, and I'd rather not deadline lynch again if we can help it.

UNVOTE: Alchemist21
VOTE: Persivul

I can certainly imagine a scenario where scum are resisting a Persivul wagon, and he's felt a bit off to me the whole game. The two people on the Persivul wagon are people I don't have a problem with. (I wish that Persivul wasn't requesting replacement right now, but I understand that life gets in the way sometimes.) I wouldn't mind an All Alone wagon for pressure, but we don't have time for that. I'm not prepared to vote davesaz right now but could be convinced, but I doubt that's happening today. No one else has votes or a realistic chance of a wagon right now.

If you don't have a vote on someone, I'd like to see it move now. Time to get hoppin', peeps.

Similarly, if you're the only one on a candidate, you'd better be pushing hard for your special cupcake lynch, or move somewhere that has a shot of getting a lynch.

[Thesp]

Thesp, why are you not prepared to vote davesaz?

The last game I was in (online), lurkers won the game. I'm a bit gunshy from it. I need to sit down and see if my unease with davesaz is related (fairly or unfairly) to post quantity of post content. I also need to push on him for some answers, but haven't had the time to do so (and am unlikely to carve out that time this week, sadly). If a great case came up on him that I could analyze, that might make things interesting, but I'm skeptical that one such exists.

---

And I had my reasons for that
What are yours?

What are your reasons for suspicion of me? What do you think of Persivul?

[Thesp]

Your push on me and eventi's lynch. And I think ivul is town tbh

You think who is town? The typo (??) is making it hard to identify.

Ivul is town

Being deliberately obtuse is neither cute nor funny (nor creative) - it's obnoxious and anti-town. Cut it out.

---

All Alone

, I don't get the feeling you're trying hard in this game, do you have the same feeling about yourself? (I don't mean this as an insult, honest.)

All Alone

, I missed your answer to this question, do you mind responding?

I pushed Dominator hard for most of D1, and you today, and in both cases the wagon grew as I pushed them. What exactly do I need to be trying harder at?

This is not the response I expected, and I'm incredibly uncomfortable with it.

---

I'm seeing the vote count look like this:

Thesp

(4): All Alone, Persivul, davesaz, TheDominator37

Persivul

(3): pistachi0n, Ankamius, Thesp

All Alone

(1): Alchemist21

davesaz

(1): RadiantCowbells

Not Voting

(2): Netherspite, duppin

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2015-08-10 18:30:00)

I'd really like to see some movement from Alchemist21, RadiantCowbells, Netherspite, and duppin. We've

got

to move, not a lot of time left.

[Thesp]

*snip*

says scum

Oh how I wish I didn't think you were town.

[Thesp]

Wait wait wait.

So you agreed that All Alone is scummy as fuck, and yet you want Alchemist to switch votes.
Davesaz is also on your wagon with garbage pretenses and flip flopping over what his views are, and yet you want me to switch votes.

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.

If we had another week, I'd be especially interested in pursuing an All Alone wagon. I don't think we have enough time to do it. Round up enough people willing to switch, and I'll gladly do it. (I'll also self-consciously note that if I split wagons even further at this point, it strengthens the likelihood of myself as a default lynch as we come down to the wire, which is less-than-desirable, to say the least. )

[Thesp]

*snip*

says scum

Oh how I wish I didn't think you were town.

Why because I would an easy lynch O_o

Because I think you're being actively harmful to the town for your own kicks, and because I don't want you to win as scum if you're playing like this and I'm wrong about your towniness right now. Barring some cop clearance or other confirmed situation, if it got down to a LyLo, I'd lynch you in a heartbeat because I don't think I could stand to lose to someone who's being deliberately obnoxious and unhelpful throughout the game for their own amusement.

[Thesp]

What if me and duppin are scum buds

Them I'm clearly lost in this game.

[Thesp]

@all

Did anyone else besides

Persivul

play with

RadiantCowbells

previously?
Does his current play match his townplay or not?
I just realized that I took

Persivul

's words for him being town in this game without doubt and I think I shouldn't have.

I haven't.

Who are you looking to vote? It's 3 days to deadline, I'm going to be somewhat inactive this weekend with family in town, and we need to move somewhere. Others have at least expressed interest in where their votes will move - what are you thinking?

---

I'm liking RadiantCowbells's posts.

[Thesp]

deadline will be frozen for 2 days from this timestamp. if no replacement is found I will modkill the slot

What do you mean by this? Are you adding two days to the deadline, or is it two days from the moment of your post there (which would be ~10pm tonight Central US Time)? (The other deadlines still active and in the OP suggest a deadline of 6:30pm tonight.) What's the deadline before modkilling the slot (is it to coincide with the day's end)? Will we have some sort of warning if you've found a replacement player, or would we just find that out at the time of the lynch?

Modkilling a slot here seems extreme. The vague announcement and timing of it all is also not cool. This is a very bad way to end Day 2, and I don't like the forward-going uncertainty when it comes to future replacements.

---

Depending on how this all goes down affects what I want to do.

If Persivul is just going to die anyway, I want to lynch All Alone.

(There is an argument for no-lynching as well, but I don't want to entertain that today at this late hour.) If we're going to get two kills out of this, we should try to use it to our advantage. The trouble with this is it's not clear if the slot is going to die anyway, and there's some uncertainty as to when the deadline is actually going to hit, and no telling if we'll get people on to make an informed decision. (This is another moment to remember why I don't like deadline lynches.)

I'm willing to vote for All Alone instead of Persivul if it would create a lynch. (I have a slight preference for lynching Persivul over All Alone, but am perfectly happy killing both of them if possible.) I will move my vote as needed to prevent myself from being lynched.

---

If you agree that All Alone is scummy, would you consider a vote switch? It's an academic question because after Dave's' last I'm not changing my votes until he's lynched.

We're potentially 10 hours away from a lynch. Would you switch your vote to ensure a lynch? I pinky promise to look hard at davesaz tomorrow - I don't reasonably see a wagon happening there today (but think your work in analyzing him has been worthwhile).

[Thesp]

And an unofficial votecount for everyone's assistance:

Persivul

(4): pistachi0n, Ankamius, Thesp, Alchemist21

Thesp

(4): All Alone, Persivul, davesaz, TheDominator37

davesaz

(1): RadiantCowbells

Not Voting

(2): Netherspite, duppin

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2015-08-10 18:30:00) (Who knows?)

[Thesp]

VOTE: Davesaz
So Thesp, do you still not want to vote on him? (3 trains hype, best way to secure a lynch!11)

Hopefully the mod will answer Thesp's question though.

Tempting. I still prefer All Alone over davesaz, but I'm willing to lynch either one, and if davesaz is more likely to happen, I'll go that route. I think I'm actually leaning towards waiting to see how the Persivul flip goes down before making a decision, as that info would be useful.

There's an extra complication with how this replacement thing is going down in that if there

is

a replacement found right near the deadline, we have no assurance of what will happen. Obviously, the best case scenario right now is for Persivul to get deadline-killed, then hammer out the rest.

UNVOTE: Persivul

I'll move my vote back there if necessary to secure a lynch if there's replacement shenanigans.

[Thesp]

Hello everyone!

VOTE: Thesp

How much of the game had you read when you posted this? Had you received your role PM yet?

I don't have much of a desire to re-litigate my questions, so I'll try to keep this brief. I like to take a long view of them. It helped me get context for a lot of players, even if there wasn't necessarily a "scum slip", and it's useful for later re-reads and future game data points.

---

P.S. If I swotch I have a preference for Dave over All Alone. I agree with RC's point about Dave's list about Duppin probably being Cop but still scumreading Dom.

I prefer All Alone over davesaz, but with Not_Mafia's entrance I'm pretty close to the point where I'm happy to lynch any of them.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

My Condorcet list right now looks like this:
1. All Alone
2. Not_Mafia
3. davesaz
I will shamelessly move my vote amongst them to secure a lynch, with preference being given as above.

[Thesp]

I've never played with thesp before or seen him outside of discussion forums.

This is technically true, though if you'd read Newbie 1498 when you replaced into it, you would have seen me as a player in a game you played in.

[Thesp]

Yeah, I still feel like you're probably town but leaving you alive is way too much of a liability when we already have Dominator.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Why the lynch before claim?

Not_Mafia, if you are the cop, you should go ahead and claim now. (I'm doubtful, but just in case.)

[Thesp]

I prefer to lynch All Alone, but have no qualms with a davesaz lynch. Can we do both? (I'll go back and look later to see if I should prefer davesaz instead, but these two are clear favorite vote-getters for me.)

VOTE: All Alone

[Thesp]

@Thesp

What is your case on

All Alone

? I don't see why people scumread him.

A lurksack (especially near the end of yesterday's flurry, when both vote leaders were town) who hasn't given off a town vibe and whose response here was scummy as all get out. Is there anything he's done that makes you think he's town? What's your stance on him?

As an aside, I still feel unhappy with how RadiantCowbells ended yesterday, but I'm not sure that's worth litigating now (especially if davesaz turns up scum).

[Thesp]

davesaz

on the other hand was playing kinda weak at the end of the D2 + his reads list was making no sense and was looking like a forced attempt to 'do something'.

You'll get no argument from me on that.

---

Actually, this is what I want to do now.

VOTE: Netherspite

This is an interesting reversal from "I'm never moving my vote from davesaz". Why the change of heart?

[Thesp]

@Thesp

What is your case on

All Alone

? I don't see why people scumread him.

A lurksack (especially near the end of yesterday's flurry, when both vote leaders were town) who hasn't given off a town vibe and whose response here was scummy as all get out. Is there anything he's done that makes you think he's town? What's your stance on him?

Yesterday's flurry started with NotMafia replacing Persivul in 1038, and ended with RC's hammer in 1069. I pretty clearly wasn't online during that window, and I don't believe that you genuinely think I was.

Yesterday's flurry started a day before that, and your entire contribution for that entire last

week

was incredibly paltry, served the purpose of maintaining the doldrums of a status quo while the two primary wagons were on townies, and then you got defensive about it saying you were actually being productive. You continue to avoid meaningful discussion of any player other than myself while there's plenty going on. This is textbook scum play. I'm having a hard time imagining a reality where you're town.

I'm happy to see the davesaz wagon grow like it has, and if needed today I'll switch my vote there for a lynch, but would like to see All Alone go tomorrow if it doesn't happen today.

[Thesp]

This is a quick checkin post before more substance tomorrow, but...

Thesp can't even keep his own rhetoric straight:

the doldrums of a status quo

there's plenty going on

How the heck can someone genuinely believe there was plenty going on yesterday, but also there was a doldrums?

Those are literally exact opposites.

That's not an authentic belief, it's the mindset of someone who's playing mental gymnastics to make a player they know is town look as bad as possible.

While I admit it may have been inelegantly expressed, I was trying to intone that the votes weren't moving, but people were starting to talk. There was discussion of a davesaz wagon, there were the possibilities of other things happening, but the two wagons on townies were a perfect situation for you not to disrupt. I'm having an incredibly hard time imagining you're town.

I'm also sad to see the davesaz wagon dried up. If I can't get any traction on All Alone today, I'd much rather prefer davesaz than any of the others being floated about now.

UNVOTE: All Alone
VOTE: davesaz

I'm not feeling either of pistachi0n or Ankamius for scum.

[Thesp]

You're headed for a possible perfect scum win if you continue this direction.
IIRC, tomorrow is LYLO if you mislynch me and the doc doesn't get lucky.
I can't determine scum from what we have because there are lazy town voting me instead of thinking.

Looking back on the past couple of pages, I'm really, really surprised that people left the davesaz wagon after this post. I'm particularly surprised at Netherspite leaving it like he did. It looked like an excuse to jump off.

---

However, later I noticed interesting thing:
Here is the

RadiantCowbells

's wagon at its maximal size:

RadiantCowbells (4): Alchemist21, Firebringer, eventi, TheDominator37

As we know,

eventi

and

Firebringer

are town;

TheDominator37

is likely town.

I find it very unlikely that this wagon could form that easily on townie if it was consisting of townies only.
So basically I think that either

RadiantCowbells

or

Alchemist21

should be scum.
However, their interaction early game felt strongly like TvT. Not sure what to make out of it.
Accept such large wagon consisting only of townies to be formed on townie? In this case I have to agree that this game is largely TvT and we probably should start looking for scum among the lurkers.
Will read further tomorrow.

Netherspite, looking back at this, with TheDominator37 preactically confirmed town, what do you think about that votecount?

---

Still happy with a davesaz lynch. (Would jump to All Alone as well.)

[Thesp]

My desire to get engaged in this game has been exceeded by my time for it lately. That said, I don't think pistachi0n is scum, and I have a hard time believing that all of (me, Persivul, davesaz, All Alone) are town, and we were

all four

leading wagons yesterday, and it bugs the crap out of me to see the davesaz wagon just disappear like it did today.

And goodness, we need a replacement for TheDominator37.

[Thesp]

Has it really been almost a week since the last official vote count?

Yup.

[Thesp]

I think we should start consolidating for the lynch because half of the day is gone and the activity is very low.
Those who townread

Ankamius

, can you re-iterate reasons why you do so?

I strongly agree with this, and...

I'm not really townreading Ank right now, it's just that there are others I think are scummier. But sure, why not.

VOTE: Ankamius

...this is where I'm at as well (along with disagreeing with Alchemist21's reasoning, as I'm not writing off Netherspite as town). I just went back and re-read Ankamius's posts, and while I can get some of the feel for why some might want to lynch him, he's just not that high up there for me. I really like his analysis in #1169, moreso than Alchemist21's analysis in #1115, which is useful and feels townish as well.

And I'm

still

weirded out by the disappearance of the davesaz wagon, when a significant number of people stated on D2 that they wanted to lynch him, and we open the day looking to lynch him, then the wagon simply vanishes for reasons I don't really fathom. I'm not feeling pistachi0n for scum (and I'm really uncomfortable following All Alone there). So if I'm forced to move to one of (Ankamius, Alchemist21, pistachi0n), it will be Alchemist21 (which follows up on some latent suspicions from earlier in the game, but is still probably my third or fourth preferred lynchee at best). Also, I find this:

I'm not voting Ank.

I suggest others also refrain.

Scumbuddy or misguided town? Hmm...

...unnerving.

---

I'm happy we have a new mod, I'm willing to switch to Alchemist21 if I have to (but would prefer not to), and will remain a voice crying in the wilderness about All Alone and davesaz until needed.

[Thesp]

Ankamius

's analysis contains contradictions to itself which does not help the analysis to be convincing.

Where? (Forgive me if you've already stated this somewhere more explicitly and I've overlooked it.)

---

@Thesp, doesn't it give you some pause that Ank thinks Nether is scum regardless of my flip, yet he's voting me over him?

I didn't notice at first, thanks for calling it to my attention. Hmm. (Yes, it does give me pause. I don't know how much.)

He's my #1 lynch today.

Thesp, why not nether?

I'm pondering this. Also, how did Netherspite move up above pistachi0n for you?

Looking at it more, I could imagine an Ankamius/Netherspite/davesaz thing. Except #1121 from Netherspite looks out of place unless it's a conscious decision to bus (which is safer now without the cop, but still an odd timing to it).

I'm also strongly wishing RadiantCowbells hadn't been so obnoxiously obvious about Duppin being the cop.

Eh, I'm feeling pretty lost, actually. Well, I feel like I need to spend another hour teasing things out, and I really need to get back to work, and we really need a scum flip (especially today). That said, after I had just typed up everything preceding, Ankamius's #1222 doesn't sit well with me. At all.

I could switch to either Ankamius or Netherspite, though I think I'm more interested in an Ankamius flip. pistachi0n is not a consideration for me today at this point.

[Thesp]

I'm waiting until we have our TheDominator37 replacement, but I'm ready to switch to Ankamius.

[Thesp]

LOL at All Alone finally taking a position on Ankamius v. Netherspite only after enough people have said they're willing to lynch Ankamius. It's just

so bad

.

Thesp, if you have any confidence whatsoever in my scumhunting ability, do not touch the Ankamius wagon. Help with Netherspite or push something else but don't help scum lynch town.

Do you think Ankamius has looked like town over the past few pages (especially p.50)? Because I sure don't. I want to see a claim now from Ankamius.

---

busy weekend

will extend deadline as needed for replacement

sorry guys

Forgive me, but this is problematic.

Please, please,

please

give us some clear expectations for how long the deadline will be extended, when the deadline is extended, and if there are any conditionals on the deadline extension. ActionDan did a

terrible

job with this, and since we're apparently so bent on deadline lynches, it affected how the day went down. I do hope we find a replacement soon, and it helps that the slot is practically confirmed town, but uncertainty about the deadline near a deadline borders on unintentional bastard-modding.

I don't want to come across ungrateful - moderators do tough work, and replacement moderators even more so (!).

Thanks for your time and efforts in helping us enjoy the game

, especially since we were bailed on! I also want to make sure that deadlines are clearly understood, since they have such an impact on how the game runs.
[/rant]

[Thesp]

LOL at All Alone finally taking a position on Ankamius v. Netherspite only after enough people have said they're willing to lynch Ankamius. It's just so bad.

I took a position on Ankamius vs Netherspite on

my very first post sitewide

after it started. Are you seriously gonna tell me it didn't occur to you that I wasn't online this weekend? You've been here since 2004, and you've never noticed anyone not post for a weekend? Get outta here with that garbage.

On this point, you're full of crap.

Your post on

Friday

:

I wanted to wait until I was sure about someone before I placed a vote.

I'm not really townreading Ank right now, it's just that there are others I think are scummier. But sure, why not.

VOTE: Ankamius

How are these quotes consistent?

This totally ignores the Ankamius and Netherspite back and forth. In the 24 posts

immediately

preceding your Friday post, Ankamius and Netherspite have 13 of them, and nearly all of them are attacking each other. The posts that

aren't

from Ankamius and Netherspite are all from the mod, or are nearly all making comments about Ankamius v. Netherspite (and heck, I'd just commented 3 posts before yours how I was willing to be the 4th on Ankamius's wagon). I don't think you're so oblivious as to miss this, so my conclusion is that you deliberately sidestepped the hullabaloo going on around it so as to not have to take a position on them.

Look, I totally understand not posting on the weekends. I rarely do. But I won't pretend that nothing was happening when you

were

posting, and especially at the time when Ankamius v. Netherspite was heating up.

Everyone else

, please read the thread from #1211 on to All Alone's post on Friday, and see if it looks to you like there's some issue he's dodging. You can do so with this handy dandy link right here.

[Thesp]

St Constantine the Hermit replaces Dom.

I'm extending the deadline two days to compensate for how long the slot was inactive.

Also, welcome, St Constantine! We need your thoughts relatively soon.

[Thesp]

---

I think Dave is the best bet for now. If I get time and clear my head I'll look some things back over, but right now I'm still clouded in my thoughts.

I could totally go with that. I still don't like Ankamius, but davesaz is just

terribad

.

I am town. Where do we go from there?

I'd love to hear your thoughts, and fairly pronto.

2. His All Alone suspicion in that post is bogus. I don't understand why he'd condemn All Alone for taking so long to take a side in the debate when the latter ended up taking my side in the end. It makes very little sense for a scumpartner to wait until it's nearly inevitable that I get lynched to come to my defense. He was trying to discredit all the lifelines I had to make sure I get lynched.

I'm unclear - are you suggesting that as scum I wouldn't simply lynch you when I had the chance? Also, do you think All Alone was avoiding taking a stance between you and Netherspite?

[Thesp]

---

I think Dave is the best bet for now. If I get time and clear my head I'll look some things back over, but right now I'm still clouded in my thoughts.

I could totally go with that. I still don't like Ankamius, but davesaz is just

terribad

.

I am town. Where do we go from there?

I'd love to hear your thoughts, and fairly pronto.

2. His All Alone suspicion in that post is bogus. I don't understand why he'd condemn All Alone for taking so long to take a side in the debate when the latter ended up taking my side in the end. It makes very little sense for a scumpartner to wait until it's nearly inevitable that I get lynched to come to my defense. He was trying to discredit all the lifelines I had to make sure I get lynched.

I'm unclear - are you suggesting that as scum I wouldn't simply lynch you when I had the chance? Also, do you think All Alone was avoiding taking a stance between you and Netherspite?

No, I don't think All Alone was avoiding taking a stance. I think he was just AFK for a couple days and

couldn't

give a stance.

And yes, you wouldn't lynch me while you had the chance because that would be unnecessary. With the catfight going on at the time, bringing undue attention to yourself as scum is a very bad idea.

You think All Alone simply read past what was being said on Thursday and Friday when he posted on Friday, or wasn't interested in what was being said there? I'm explicitly talking about his Friday post, not being gone over the weekend.

Also, what do you think of davesaz's 4th vote on you here?

[Thesp]

Ankamius, in case you missed it, do you mind responding to this (especially in light of the impending deadline)?

You think All Alone simply read past what was being said on Thursday and Friday when he posted on Friday, or wasn't interested in what was being said there? I'm explicitly talking about his Friday post, not being gone over the weekend.

Also, what do you think of davesaz's 4th vote on you here?

---

@Thesp, did you see my response to your AA question in 1311?

I did. I instinctively disagree with you, but I don't know what more I can say on that point.

---

I still hold davesaz to be the best lynch today. I will switch to Ankamius if needed, or Netherspite if desperately needed (though I don't want to). I won't vote for Alchemist21 or pistachi0n today.

Ankamius and Netherspite need to get votes down pronto.

[Thesp]

Thesp, why not Alchemist?

He's felt very natural to me today, particularly in the last several pages and his evolving thoughts on Ankamius. I have no desire for his lynch at all.

---

Can we flash wagon pistachi0n?

Nope. No desire for that, nor do I think that pushing

yet another

wagon at this point makes

any

sense right now with a day left before deadline. (It's also maddening that we have a replacement who seems to have no interest in playing this game.)

---

UNVOTE: davesaz
VOTE: Ankamius

It's a terrible time to be avoiding this thread with meaningful contribution and no vote. It sure looks like he's hoping the wagon on him just dissipates, while he keeps a lynch from happening by not contributing. I'm going to try to be around today, but the deadline on Saturday is a terrible time for me, so I'd like to wrap this up now.

Also:

Mod: Please consider this a request to replace St Constantine the Hermit.

If he has no desire to play this game, he really shouldn't be occupying one of the critical votes needed to lynch a player right now.

[Thesp]

That was eight days ago, and since then she's left her vote on Ankamius while doing absolutely nothing useful with that vote. A townie who was wagoning someone for pressure would definitely be following up on it. She hasn't. The Ankamius wagon is dying, and she doesn't seem to notice or care. I really don't see any town motivation for that.

I'm not currently wagoning Ank for pressure. I'm wagoning Ank because I don't want a no lynch. I would prefer davesaz or RC at this point. But now it's even more crucial we don't have a mislynch because we don't have a ton of time left.

Why didn't you switch your vote to davesaz when there were two people on davesaz, and you were one of only two on Ankamius?

[Thesp]

That was eight days ago, and since then she's left her vote on Ankamius while doing absolutely nothing useful with that vote. A townie who was wagoning someone for pressure would definitely be following up on it. She hasn't. The Ankamius wagon is dying, and she doesn't seem to notice or care. I really don't see any town motivation for that.

I'm not currently wagoning Ank for pressure. I'm wagoning Ank because I don't want a no lynch. I would prefer davesaz or RC at this point. But now it's even more crucial we don't have a mislynch because we don't have a ton of time left.

Why didn't you switch your vote to davesaz when there were two people on davesaz, and you were one of only two on Ankamius?

I was starting to get more enthusiastic about voting for Ankamius when he claimed he knew Davesaz is town. At that point there were two people on Ank aside from me, and two people on davesaz, and I was feeling ambivalent. But as of 1326 I was scum-reading him less. What's the current vote count? If there would be a davesaz majority I'll switch my vote.

Since the votecount here, the only change I see is that I moved to Ankamius, putting him at 3 (and the only candidate with more than 1 vote). You can get a reasonably accurate votecount at any time by going here and putting in the url for this game:

Code: Select all

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62630

That said, I have no desire to move my vote off of Ankamius with him avoiding this thread now, and with what seems to be reluctance to get a lynch together right now when he's the candidate with the most votes.

[Thesp]

As much as I would prefer a davesaz wagon, I just don't see it happening right now.
UNVOTE: Ankamius
VOTE: Netherspite
Better Netherspite than no lynch, and I don't know how available I will be over the next 3.5 hours.

I have a feeling I'm going to be disappointed in a lot of town players after this game. (I know I already am with a few.)

[Thesp]

Unofficial Vote Count

Netherspite

(4): RadiantCowbells, Ankamius, All Alone, Thesp

Alchemist21

(2): St Constantine the Hermit, Netherspite

Ankamius

(2): pistachi0n, davesaz

davesaz

(1): Alchemist21

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

[Thesp]

Welcome to the game, Fluminator!

I'm really, really having a hard time imagining a world where davesaz isn't scum. I also need to go through and re-read why Alchemist21 may have been killed, as it's another unexpected kill to me. (Actually, I'm surprised anyone was killed - I likely would have no-killed despite the doc being alive.)

Thesp has consistently been on the tail end of each of these mislynches.
Do you say anything to that Thesp?

If you like, sure. I thought eventi was scum and pushed his lynch. I strongly preferred All Alone to Not_Mafia (and had davesaz up there), but hated Not_Mafia's entrance into the game, and strongly preferred his lynch to mine. I did not like the Netherspite wagon at all, but preferred a lynch to no lynch, and voted there because I felt it was necessary to get a lynch and no one else would move.

---

VCA is a shit metric that's the refuge for terrible scumhunters who want to blame their targets for being lynched.

I think this is incredibly wrong, and I don't like how quickly you dismiss it.

---

I feel like we've gotten to this place from either stubborn or apathetic town over the last few days, and I'm pretty irritated at that. I'm still at a loss for why the davesaz wagon yesterday just died, I still don't understand why All Alone is townread, and I'm generally at a frustrated place in this game. I've written off Fluminator as town, so I need to sit down and see who I really think are the most likely other two town. I generally think davesaz is scum as is All Alone (and I can see them together), but I need to see if a third person works with that pair.

VOTE: davesaz

The resistance to his wagon is too much for me to overlook.

[Thesp]

I'm leaning away from a doc claim today, as I don't see the utility in it. If we consolidate on a lynch choice before a last-minute-deadline, we can evaluate a claim from the lynchee at that point. I think there's value in hiding the doc until then, especially if it can be hidden another day.

I'm really not liking RadiantCowbells' refusal to consider other lynch options, which has been a pattern throughout the game. I'm almost at the point where I want him lynched just because this intractability caused problems yesterday, and the weird reversal on D2 caused a loss of other useful information.

I'm not interested in pistachi0n today, when davesaz is just so crazy scummy by his own posts and the inaction of others. I'm willing to reconsider tomorrow, but I have no desire to see that happen today. I've been willing to move my vote to secure lynches all game, and it's ended up very poorly here because some players have been intractable. It might be time for me to be just as intractable, which feels childish but might actually be the correct approach now.

[Thesp]

As a side note, my availability this weekend will be sketchy for a variety of reasons.

[Thesp]

Doc claiming is inconvenient for scum. That's why it's a good idea.

I disagree. Right now, it's far better to make scum have to call someone suspicious who later turns up provably innocent. It's even better if it's avoided until we have fewer people left. There's still a non-zero chance of doc protects. Nope nope nope.

Who are you looking at voting for today? davesaz, pistachi0n, or someone else?

[Thesp]

I shouldn't even have to point out how wagoning up the actual town doctor and having a scum counterclaim with the favorable side of the exchange is pro-scum.

I have a very difficult time believing this never crossed Thesp's mind.

There are so many things I want to say here and so many of them are counter-productive. No no no. Still opposed to a doc claim.

What do you think of davesaz and of pistachi0n?

[Thesp]

UNVOTE: davesaz

More upcoming, working on a post right now.

(As an aside - RadiantCowbells, you probably want to use the unvote tag to help the votecounter, like this:

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[unvote]pistachi0n[/unvote]

It will be confused by Vote: Unvote, and will try to match "Unvote" to the nearest player name.)

[Thesp]

I wish I had the time to devote to re-reading the whole game, which I feel this deserves. At the same time, with no flips yet, I still feel aimless.

Scum are getting really frustrated, even though they have managed to lynch townies anyway.

Why do you think this?

Nether was a counter wagon to someone other than me. Does that help?

What do you mean by this? I've read over it and the context for it about 5 times, and I'm missing something in this explanation. Explain like I'm 5. (You return to this in #1466, so I'm clearly missing something.)

Having one vote in LYLO goes both ways. I'm town and the 3 scum haven't jumped on me. Because one scum is already there.

I'm not sure that the logistics of getting three scum to vote at the same time are all that easy. With 7 alive, I don't see a lack of movement on a single vote as all that interesting. (At the time, I was also willing to lose if I was wrong about you, as I didn't have any doubts about you. This changes with #1475 (read on).

762 - RC comes across as worse after eventi flip.

This post looks town

...
I'm really conflicted after this part of the review. The hifive could be buddying but it could be town trying to build good vibe.

For what it's worth, I tend to :hifive: in games. I enjoy the camradarie, and it's subtly pushing people towards things I like, which is always good for my game. I have once had to go through and find games where I do that as town because someone thought I only did that as scum. I imagine I do it regardless of alignment.

This post of yours did two things for me - it made me second-guess my read on you (as this doesn't feel like a scum-saz post, when I appear to be possibly lynchable), and it reminded me of my post #762. The Firebringer kill still seems weird to me. It makes sense from a RadiantCowbells-scum perspective. I'm also reminded of something Day 1, where I had the nagging feeling that RadiantCowbells was drawing too much attention, then deliberately retreated to the background to avoid blowback. (This was with the "RQS" attacks nonsense.) I'm leaning towards a RadiantCowbells/Ankamius/(All Alone or possibly pistachi0n but probably All Alone) team at this moment. IT's the one making the most sense from a game narrative point of view. There may be things I'm forgetting from not re-reading, but this makes sense to me. (The only thing giving me pause on this is that both RadiantCowbells and Ankamius are the only ones advocating a doc claim now, which seems odd as scum pairs, but perhaps they're appealing/buddying to Fluminator's suggestion of such. Hmm.)

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Thesp, if you have any confidence whatsoever in my scumhunting ability, do not touch the Ankamius wagon. Help with Netherspite or push something else but don't help scum lynch town.

RadiantCowbells, yesterday you said this. Do you still feel it was scum trying to lynch town?

I just realized we haven't had a doc claim. Doc needs to claim pronto so we can get another confirmed.

There hasn't been consensus on this - only two people are advocating this. I still advise against this plan.

[Thesp]

All my potential scum teams I see have you in it Thesp. If you're the doc, can you claim it? Because if I'm on the wrong track, I sort of want to know now.

You're the third person to call for it, and I don't want the day to turn into "should the doc claim or not?".

I am indeed the doc. My protects were [All Alone, duppin, St Constantine the Hermit] in that order. I didn't want to argue with Ankamius about the doc claim because yes, the correct play for scum being run up would be to doc claim, but I'm not convinced they necessarily would, and I sure wasn't going to tell them that. I'm still not convinced this was the right call, but whatever. Blergh.

RadiantCowbells, yesterday you said this. Do you still feel it was scum trying to lynch town?

I don't know. I was really caught up on Netherspite scum which led me to believe that you both were town.

I'm fairly confident in my AA read which leaves me with at least one scum in the pair of you two. I'll figure it out when we get a doc claim and lynch Pistachi0n.

Note the absence of a hammer on Pistachi0n nor anyone trying to move into it.

I feel like you're refusing to review how yesterday went. Also, what do you think of Ankamius yesterday thinking Netherspite was assuredly scum, but pushing Alchemist21? I'm also not convinced that a lack of movement towards someone is an indication that such a person is scum.

[Thesp]

And where the heck is All Alone? And RadiantCowbells, why are you so dead-set on AA being town?

[Thesp]

I'm also beginning to think that Ankamius is hoping we'll forget about him.

[Thesp]

I thought it was you.

Does anyone think pistachi0n would be the sort that would lie about this? This is important.

[Thesp]

RadiantCowbells, I really want you to answer this:

I thought it was you.

Does anyone think pistachi0n would be the sort that would lie about this? This is important.

[Thesp]

RadiantCowbells, I really want you to answer this:

I thought it was you.

Does anyone think pistachi0n would be the sort that would lie about this? This is important.

[Thesp]

Does anyone think pistachi0n would be the sort that would lie about this? This is important.

I don't see what your point is.

I think Pistachi0n absolutely would lie for tactical advantage, but I don't see where the tactical advantage is to be gained there so I'm assuming it's a true statement.

Here's the deal - TheDominator37 claimed Vanilla Townie a long time ago. I can't imagine the scum missed that, and likely discussed it behind the scenes. This is the slot Fluminator now holds.

If pistachi0n actually thought Fluminator was the doc

, then it is extraordinarily unlikely that pistachi0n is scum. Now, if pistachi0n thought someone would make the conclusions I'm making on the spur of the moment, all bets are off, but I'm skeptical about that.

VOTE: Ankamius

There's a reasonable chance the team is RadiantCowbells/davesaz/All Alone, but Ankamius feels the most like scum of all of these. I think I'd also be up for All Alone, but I'm pretty set on one of these two.

[Thesp]

Thesp, Fluminator.

Me and AA have left Pistachi0n at L-2 for days.

Unless you think we're both scum, in which case you should vote one of us, why hasn't she been hammered if she's town?

Think about it.

1. There is a non-zero chance you're both scum.
2. Coordinating a timed lynch isn't that easy?

I have thought about it. Have you thought about my thoughts on why I think pistachi0n isn't likely to be scum?

[Thesp]

Thesp you need to stfu and vote Pistachi0n.

Congrats on winning the game, but this sort of behavior is out of line and inappropriate.

I wish I'd gone with another gut and voted All Alone instead, but I'm still skeptical town would have won this. Oh well, good game.

I am absolutely, 100% lynching lurkers next game. Blech.

[Thesp]

Thesp, you shouldn't ever vote in LyLo as town unless you're sure of votes.

I was as sure of my votes as I was going to be. I was also tired of the game going to deadlines every single day. I really should have gone with All Alone instead today as its somewhat criminal what we let him get away with, but oh well. Well played, scum.

Abuse of power opening ActionDan's Private Topics on the game:
First Graveyard PT
Mafia PT

[Thesp]

You said you could see a scumteam without me in it being possible, though.

We didn't even get a chance to see if All Alone was going to counterclaim or not. That's why I was specifically waiting since that would've changed everything and made my entire analysis useless.

True, but I thought the odds were still pretty darn low of that. The "He's guaranteed scum but I'm not voting him" yesterday was weird, as was your swing around on me on the last day, and they made me think you were likely scum. Oh well.

More abuse of power: here's Part 2 of the Graveyard.

[Thesp]

I did forget to mention - thanks so much, BBMolla, for taking over the game and running it to completion. It's much appreciated!