Mini 1804: Poker Mafia (Game Over)

[Something_Smart]

Fold

VOTE: Something_Smart
Policy.

[Something_Smart]

Do you guys think it's worth it to, once we decide on who to lynch, force the scummy players on the wagon to get off and replace them with towny players in order to keep the most possible money in the hands of the town?

[Something_Smart]

Do you guys think it's worth it to, once we decide on who to lynch, force the scummy players on the wagon to get off and replace them with towny players in order to keep the most possible money in the hands of the town?

Given how hard it tends to be to get players to agree to a lynch in the first place in general site meta do you think it is going to be viable to actually try to arrange wagons in this manner?

I don't know that's why I was asking

We tried something like that in this game, where I switched off a wagon in order to be the hammer on a claimed supersaint, but even that was screwed up by Anti hammering before I could. I don't know if we could accomplish this, but it seems like it would be helpful if we could.

Pedit: infinity are you copying ranger? if so why are you at the bottom?

[Something_Smart]

Hmm.
If 1 is terrible then probably around a 4. Although this poker game has less skill than most.

[Something_Smart]

Eww. Earning money is not necessarily part of your wincon. Although I think that 42 is an awfully big leap to take.

I'm sure scum had pre-game talk, I've never seen a game where they didn't.

[Something_Smart]

I was "eww"-ing at Lane because money is not necessarily part of the town wincon. It's much closer for scum, although the fact that it's always public how much money a person has earned makes it that much harder for them.

[Something_Smart]

Okay so first of all, "zero scum game" is probably the most hilarious thing I have seen on this site 11/10 MoI

A mislynch to verify this being completely false isn't the worst way to start out the game. However you'll change your mind on due time

This is anti-town.

This kind of assumes lane is town.

Could be scum dumping money to each other so they can buy out one of the bigger PRs early.

I really like this question and thought process. I hadn't considered any money shenanigans, but it makes sense that the scum may want to pool their money together under one person if they can, especially given how everything costs more than $500.

Not following this. It's a meh thought process, honestly to me it sounds more likely to come from scum than average. Why do you like it so much?

s_s - town: He seems to be genuinely trying to figure stuff out.

I would like elaboration on this, it sounds rather generic.

And to all of you who say I'm playing bad, that's normal: this is my second game here, and it's months after my first due to a quite tense situation I got into IRL. As for being hasty, I was: one of the primal needs of the human body is sleep, and I was in lack of it. I'll be coming up with a readslist as well as I can, but keep in mind that didn't help me much in my first game so don't be surprised if I only dig myself deeper and you end up lynching me.

This is fairly towny. 90 is using a lot of words to say nothing, I'm not sure if it's alignment indicative though. (Maybe slightly towny.)
Ugh. I was really hoping to roll scum this game because I am far better at deceiving people I don't know and far better at reading people I do know. (I rely a lot on meta.) And meta without personal experience is like 10 times less effective.

Hmm. I liked 91 and 92, but 93 is weak at best. Another player I'll have to meta.

MM has decent analysis, but nothing that can't be faked by scum

Interesting, that's exactly my thoughts on you.

Your votes for me basically say I'm transparent scum, guys; which would mean I'm bad. I'm not.
My reads are null with very soft leans in case you can read and spot them.

Eww.
98-99: qubixes is probably town. And I like lane's 100 too.

Not many people responded to my random reads list, but s_s responded in a towny way.

Is this why you were townreading me early?

The question everyone has to ask themselves, if you were townMM, would you have called scumlane? If so, why didn't you? If not, why would townMM do this?

I would have called if:
1) I thought my hand was the strongest,
2) I thought lane was bluffing, or
3) I didn't mind all my money going to lane. I think MM called for a mixture of 1 & 2.
I think several parts of 107 are awfully reachy. I think under certain circumstances, trying to get townread is a null tell, and I think MM would be doing so as either alignment. The LAMIST argument is also pretty tenuous. MoI is one of the few players I've seen firsthand before (as town, and I was modding the game so I wasn't reading as carefully into his posts as if I had been playing, but it's better than nothing) and so far this is looking like this could be the town play I saw, or it could not be. Before anyone jumps on me for fencesitting, the point of this is that I can't draw a clear conclusion from his posts yet.

This is a reach

yes

that is completely unworthy of a vote.

not necessarily. It's page 5, votes don't need to have strong reasoning attached and sometimes they're just for reactions anyway. I also don't like the implication that you might do things that would be worthy of a vote?

The question everyone has to ask themselves, if you were townMM, would you have called scumlane? If so, why didn't you? If not, why would townMM do this?

This reeks of scum trying to position the argument that there is no logical reason for MM to be Town when the question is very poorly staged.

I would have absolutely called Lane even if I thought he was scum trying some sort of gambit if I had a good 5 card draw poker hand. The obvious answer why I didn’t? I didn’t have a good hand. The second half is pointless given I think Town with a good hand would call scum Lane.

This is a false dichotomy and scummy. If Lane was scum looking to consolidate it is possible MM is a partner. It is also possible that MM has a good 5 card draw hand and he pre-empted scum’s plan as Town. Looking at the vote history he was the second to act.

More reaching... you don't necessarily know what the point of this question is. I certainly don't think it creates a false dichotomy.

It is also possible that MM has a good 5 card draw hand and he pre-empted scum’s plan as Town.

Actually MM would look a lot better if he had simply said he has a great hand and so he called. Claiming he was pre-empting scum's plan is bad. As has been already noted, if here were really thinking at that level, he would have waited for scum to call before going in himself.

QFT
I agree with the people who are saying that we need to see the results of the hand before we proceed in reading lane and MM. Kappy, we're looking at you.
118 sounds genuine. I don't think that reflects much on his alignment, except that there's a small chance he would continue to deny his mistake as scum.

[Something_Smart]

NAI = non-alignment-indicative

[Something_Smart]

Oh yeah lol I keep forgetting to get rid of that self vote.
UNVOTE:

[Something_Smart]

I'm sorry I've got a lot on my plate rn, haven't been able to get into this game too much. I'll reread tomorrow, see what I can make of it. I was getting gut pings against Infinity but I'm not sure if that's just me.

[Something_Smart]

Fold

Does anyone here know what Persivul's scumgame looks like?

[Something_Smart]

Time for a few questions.

Infinity, are you still townreading Persivul?

Persivul, now you understand why MM called. Do you understand why he kept changing his story about why he called? Do you think that says anything about his alignment?

I don't mind BBT's vote. I don't like his refusal to explain. (It's very BBT I know but that vote could have served multiple different purposes and not knowing which is keeping me from understanding his motivation.) BBT, are you still refusing to explain?

MM (refer to 90), why wasn't 42 a big leap to take? Did the idea occur to you when you called? Why was my post (16) a "candid dream", and how did that not stand out to you?

Still to MM, when did you realize the top tier abilities were $1250 and not $1000? Why did you obviously invent new reasons to back up your call after the fact? What is your read on lane? Do you have any reads stronger than the ones expressed in 90?

MoI, do you think lane's alignment is related to his apparent poker knowledge? (You seemed to in 107.) Do you understand why RC says your arguments are poor in 107?

RC, what is your read on Persivul? You've gone to great lengths to argue that lane's bet was non-alignment-indicative, do you have a read on him outside of that? (Especially given that his terrible hand was revealed.)

Re:

Given your poor arguments in 107, it stands to reason that you'll now comb back over reasonable questions in an attempt to frame them in a negative light. I'm asking questions, not creating a false dichotomy. The proper answer here is, "I would've called, but my hand was poor". That's all that needed to be said. Instead of answering me and seeing how I reacted, you took it upon yourself to assume these questions were meant as a trap.

He responded how you wanted. What issue do you have with him pointing out his objections with those questions? What was the point of the last two questions?

FA, why is lane bullshitting to cover his bad play scummy? We're playing two games here, he screwed up in one game in a way that only slightly affected the other. Do you think lane's play makes sense as scum if MM isn't his partner?

[Something_Smart]

Mod: I'll be V/LA until Monday. I should still have some access though.

[Something_Smart]

FA, answer my questions. Lane, stop defending your bluff and start scumhunting.

[Something_Smart]

Catchup timeeee

203 is REALLY reachy. I don't recall MoI using arguments this flimsy when he was town before? I'll have to check.

207: I've heard a saying about lying, it goes something like: you can tell a liar because their story fits together TOO perfectly. When people are telling the truth they often misremember or suffer bias that makes their story not perfectly consistent. I therefore don't agree with any of the arguments against MM that relate to his call and explanation thereof.

Infinity's looking fairly towny with his 219 and 220.

228 ewwwwww

229 haven't you ever heard that hypocrisy is a towntell?

Argument over MM's experience is longer than it needs to be.

232: @MM what about the things you mentioned that Persivul did was scum indicative?

233: that has to be some sort of fallacy. My read on this depends on if it ends up being a pressure vote or a real vote.

First part of 239: Ugh, this is something I've seen from both town and scum. Sometimes town really does form reads like that but IME if that's all you have to support it then you might want to reevaluate it. Not to mention that it's the easiest read in the world to fake as scum.

The confidence in 242 in my experience is more likely to come from scum.

244 is a good point.

EDIT: oh oh oh #RektBy267

250: @Infinity why is MM "quite town"?

Oh, it's Fire Assassin. From now on in my posts "FA" is FA_Q2 and "Fire" is Fire Assassin.

260 (first part): @RC your strongest townread on Persivul was never previously stated, can you explain it please?
(second part) that's a pretty good answer.
(third part) agree
(fourth part) eww speaking of incriminatory rhetoric. There were clearer and less accusatory ways to say this, I'm puzzling over why he should say it like that.

261 sounds a bit like stale logic. I know the feeling, when you've decided too early who you're going to push and need to come up with stuff to say despite not analyzing anything to a new conclusion.

No reason not to believe 262. Although you probably ought to get used to playing as town

263: I don't think you can draw conclusions about other players' interest in the setup wrt their alignment. There are way too many factors involved there.

264 is really weird... it seems to imply that RC is scum but the last line totally suggests that his reads are his genuine thoughts. But... RC didn't seem to notice that in 271. In fact that post feels slightly suck-up-y and sounds like "look at how this game fits my town meta and not my scum meta", although granted it was in response to Infinity's meta question.

Don't know how I feel about lane calling qubixes's posts good points... on the one hand, they are (or at least 267 is... I don't understand 265), but on the other hand this isn't the first time lane's done this and I wonder if once he decided on qubixes as a hard townread he was just going to call everything he did town.

272 orly?

273: ohh oops I guess I misread that too. Well the point that RC misread it as I did and didn't point out what I saw still stands. Infinity is probably town, methinks.

276: yes, you should do that.

[Something_Smart]

s_s, a lot of things in that post seem to suggest I'm scum, why do you think I'm town?

The only one that actually did was the response to 261. (I originally disliked 264 but that changed once I realized I misunderstood it.) Anyway, throughout the catchup I tried to call each post like I saw it, independent of my thoughts on the player. When I said you were probably town, that was summing up all my thoughts on all your posts. Right now I'm thinking you're the type of town player whom my gut tells me to scumread. (SirCakez, Firebringer, itlepip are other examples)

[Something_Smart]

I'm going to make this a short post, because this is a pet peeve of mine. It's not really alignment indicative, but I just want to call you out for this so you don't do it again (at least when responding to me). You asked about my Persivul read, I told you that he was my top town read and that I previously stated that. Instead of you either doing a quick ISO search of me for the name "Persivul" or even just saying (whether or not it's actually true that you took the time to look), "I didn't see that, could you explain again, please?", you double down and and make this untrue statement effectively calling me a liar.

Sorry I actually did search your ISO for "pers" but I somehow missed that line that you addressed directly to him instead of saying "persivul is my top townread".
In fact, I didn't think you were a liar; I thought that you had formed that read but never got around to expressing it. Which is partially true because you didn't really explain it until this post. Anyway, I thought those posts were good too (91 and 92, anyway; I didn't love 93), but even a strong, clear and well-explained push can come from scum (in fact in a vacuum those seem like the pushes scum are more wont to make), so I still don't see what was "extremely towny" about them.

@SS

– can you explain why looking through you ISO I see exactly what Infinity called out RC for – posts that look like just being made for the sake of it as opposed to actual scum-hunting? Who are your scum reads and why are you not voting one of them?

Probably because I've been gathering thoughts and not sharing many of them. Ftr I think posting for the sake of it (as long as one is actually hunting scum) is actually a minor towntell, and I can't imagine that you think I haven't been scumhunting.
My top scumreads are you and FA_Q2. I haven't voted yet because I don't have a strong read on any of the leading wagons (MM, RC, Persivul)... my strongest is a mild townlean on RC.

[Something_Smart]

Probably because I've been gathering thoughts and not sharing many of them. Ftr I think posting for the sake of it (as long as one is actually hunting scum) is actually a minor towntell, and I can't imagine that you think I haven't been scumhunting.
My top scumreads are you and FA_Q2. I haven't voted yet because I don't have a strong read on any of the leading wagons (MM, RC, Persivul)... my strongest is a mild townlean on RC.

I have concerns given that it took you this long to actually commit to a scum-read on players. Reading through your ISO looks very much like planting the seeds on many players to later be used as as scum reading as necessary which is scum-oriented play.

Why are you required to vote a top wagon? That's an absurd notion to float I have trouble understanding that notion as coming from a Town perspective.

I'm not required to vote a top wagon, I just think sorting out those reads is my top priority.
Also, none of my scumreads are that strong yet. I'm still in the midst of working out this game; don't worry, I'll commit to plenty of reads in due time.

[Something_Smart]

S_S, you mentioned that one of my posts looked "suck-up-y". I disagree, but I understand how you got that impression. With that in mind, do you think Infinity is a town or scum lean for you personally?

I don't really see how that observation relates to the question, but I'm leaning town on Infinity because his recent posting has been pretty good.

[Something_Smart]

I bought back in, in exchange for being gayer

Fuck. Hated. Lol.

LOL

[Something_Smart]

hahahahahaha

Need to reread MM, but let it be known that I'm bad at reading new players, whether or not they're experienced elsewhere.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion
I want to see where this goes.

@Infinity: you mentioned that MoI had made some towny posts. Can you direct me to them?

[Something_Smart]

Town, awkward and possibly scum (but probably not a good D1 lynch), and town
I definitely disagree that scum can't make terrible cases that look like confbias. I've been on both ends of forceful cases by scum on town that were weak at best. I think his defense of MM is contrived and could possibly be partner defending (one reason why I want an MoI flip today), and I agree that his thoughts on RC don't seem real.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah, I'm leaning scum on him, but reading him is hard because of the massive theory arguments that really didn't need to be there. I'll look at him more tomorrow, but I don't know how much more I'll be able to find. I'd rather try to sort him going forward, I've found my reads almost invariably improve as a game goes on (which is no surprise).
Pedit: I think mod deleted it.

[Something_Smart]

Oh. I don't think that's necessarily alignment indicative, he may have only had time to post in one game and wanted it to be the other one.
One of my reasons for going after MoI was that his flip would provide a lot more info than FA's. However I do like the idea of forcing FA to give more content.

[Something_Smart]

*that refers to lane's first paragraph only, the rest is definitely alignment indicative.

[Something_Smart]

also there's this so yeah he definitely is.
I wasn't going to reveal it, but now that it's outed, I'll say that my gut always tells me to scumread Firebringer (at least when he's town) so reading him will be tough but I thought his "probably" line was characteristic of his towngame (though nothing he couldn't fake if he wanted to).

[Something_Smart]

Oh wow, in one page this game went from totally fine to a crap fest.
Persivul, please don't replace out. Firebringer's playing on his alt BECAUSE he wants to be more enjoyable to play with. And meta reads against people who are highly aware of their meta are not usually effective anyway.

I want to know where lane's scumread on me comes from. Because ftr Firebringer has experience with me as both alignments and is quite good at reading me.

[Something_Smart]

Actually I'd like to do this.
VOTE: MM
@Infinity: MM may be new to the site, but he's not naive. This was the essence of the experience debate: he's new to the way things work on this site but not to the way they work in general.

[Something_Smart]

Fold

BBT's probably town, I've seen him be abrasive and defensive as town and I think he'd be doing more as scum. I think RC's objections are mostly explainable by BBT's not liking being town as much.
RC's assertion that he and I were the only true supporters of the MM wagon is not really accurate (though I still think he's town); I never expressed any read on MM for the majority of the original wagon's life, whereas other people (like lane) definitely did help that wagon along more than I did.
I'm liking Infinity for town but I really don't see where that MM read comes from and it seems a bit like a WK... you're saying scumtells for newbs are different, but you have to remember that MM is not new to the game, and probably shouldn't be treated as such in terms of his interactions.

[Something_Smart]

The fact that you keep repeating that you think he's town without much evidence as a wagon develops on him... those are the characteristics of a WK independent of my reads on you and him. Given those reads I find it unlikely but if MM flips town it's something to consider.

[Something_Smart]

I thought about it tbh, but I thought it seemed rather against the spirit of the game. Although I didn't notice the full Bulletproof to any sole winner of a DP until I checked the ruleset just a moment ago.
Okay, yeah, I like that idea now. Maybe not starting day 2, but once we think there's only 1 scum left, we can start throwing the BP to the towniest player and they can get clears with the JK and tracker.

[Something_Smart]

558 is ugly.

Farside, is your RC read meta based? Because I don't really see it.

RC'so long post was just lots of words without really.......Scum hunting. It read as more sociable if that makes sense.

I don't think this is really a strong tell for most people... especially for experienced players like RC who can for sure pretend to scumhunt as scum if they want to.

RC: straws? Someone is being defensive and touchy
I saw the vote count you were voting MM, point?

These points are also pretty weak and seem to be grasping at straws themselves.

@Infinity: please stop treating MM a total newb; that seems to be the picture you're painting, but it's been established that he isn't. What of his narrative doesn't make sense from scum who has experience on another forum? And what was particularly open or relaxed about farside's catchup?

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: FA_Q2

[Something_Smart]

Ugh. I was really hoping to roll scum this game because I am far better at deceiving people I don't know and far better at reading people I do know. (I rely a lot on meta.) And meta without personal experience is like 10 times less effective.
.

And this second part seems fake as shit too

What's fake about it? I thought about this before the game, it's not reflective of my alignment and I just wanted it out there.

"@SS – can you explain why looking through you ISO I see exactly what Infinity called out RC for – posts that look like just being made for the sake of it as opposed to actual scum-hunting? Who are your scum reads and why are you not voting one of them?" -magna

I agree with this

I answered it. Do you not think my answer is valid?

[snip]
Pedit: infinity are you copying ranger? if so why are you at the bottom?

The last line seems particularly fake considering they were both voting themselves at the time.

what?

For example. Infinity says s_s responded in a towny way.
Follow up question of, is this why you were reading me as town?

Infinity literally says so, so why does s_s ask an question where the answer is in the quote? To look towny.

Infinity had previously referenced a different reason for townreading me (reading my scumhunting as genuine). So I wanted to see if he would forget that and change his story or if he would say that it was both.

S_s asks infinity to elaborate on him saying s_s seems to genuinely be trying to figure things out, because it seems kind of generic... It was page threeo. Really? And how do you even elaborate of you think someone sounds genuine?

I didn't know what he was going to say but I wanted to see what he did say and I never ever get townread that early so I was hella paranoid.

Lane, you actually make a really good case.

Last part, "118 sounds genuine" but isn't alignment indicative. He just was asking someone to elaborate on calling something genuine. The thing I don't like, it's if s_s uses that exact wording, he knows what "sounds genuine" means. So why the heck ask infinity? To look town

I didn't ask what it meant. I asked why he got that feeling.

Ahhh, the sweet sweet WIFOM.

What motivated you to vote here?

I keep forgetting how bad his ISO is. I just looked it over again and I just got a terrible gut feeling from it. I read his ISO in a towngame and didn't get the same feeling. I'll pull quotes later (a bit rushed rn), and there's another reason I'll get to later as well.

@s_s, why despite this

207: I've heard a saying about lying, it goes something like: you can tell a liar because their story fits together TOO perfectly. When people are telling the truth they often misremember or suffer bias that makes their story not perfectly consistent. I therefore don't agree with any of the arguments against MM that relate to his call and explanation thereof.

do you still scumread mm?

Changing your story is not a strong towntell, and his posts just seem forced and weak. The point of that quote is that it's not a scumtell, at least not the way he's doing it. My scumread, as I said before, does not have to do with anything related to his early call of lane's bluff.

[Something_Smart]

And I'm caught up.

fold

I think s_so missed my question, I could be wrong, too tired to check right.
Someone reminder to check on it.
Interestingly enough RC has me rethinking my scum read on him

Yeah, I did. Here it is:

You want to explain why your protecting RC?
As for meta on RC no, he'said someone I remember but not what his playstle.
You think being defensive for an experienced players is town??,???
Sure maybe if it was valid but that was page five and RC push was weak.
Why is MOI'so points against RC reachy?

1. At the time of me posting that, I was townreading RC and scumreading your slot.
2. I think being defensive is not always scummy, even for experienced players.
3. I think MoI was trying to find scum motivation in actions that were not necessarily scum motivated:
"Read back through his posts surrounding Lane and notice his posts where positions that Lane isn’t scum but refuses to take a stance that Lane is anything but Null." (203)
"Yeah, I had forgotten you hopped on MM. Why did you just happen to hop on the biggest wagon again?" (203)
"Strikes me as LAMIST to a degree. All of this could have been just as easily handled in a PM. And specifically because it isn’t a question (which others have posted, Pers as I recall most recently) which benefits general knowledge." (107)
"I’m having issues with these linked paragraphs. Specifically the manner in which he just assesses that Lane wouldn’t be scum because he’s impulsive. That doesn’t make any sense given that Lane being an ‘impulsive type’ would be impulsive regardless of the alignment he drew. This looks like reaching to draw a conclusion that he already knows." (107)

Wait no it wasn't, why did you care if he had himself at the bottom? You had yourself at the bottom. You were voting yourself

Yeah but that was RVS and if he was copying Ranger like he said he was, those reads would be real and therefore a bigger deal than RVS.

You said you wanted him to elaborate because it seemed generic

Okay, semantics. What I meant was, it's easy to say my posts sound genuine. Can you tell me why? (because that's harder to fake).

I just need a flip. And s_s said fire's "probably" comment was his town play. The fire I know says that crap no matter what

That was me looking for any shred of stuff I could read Fire with, because he's a real pain to read. I've never played with scum!him, so I wouldn't know if he does that too as scum. (Which I mentioned in that post.)

Replacing out is NAI end of story. I have heard this bullshit over and over again about one replace out is scummy or one is town and they are virtually always random. Replacing out for personal reasons or because you do not enjoy playing with a particular player/play style does not suddenly evaporate when you are scum or town. Nice try though.

Wrong.

[Something_Smart]

If you're asking me to tell you the difference between you calling something genuine and him calling more than one thing genuine, there is none. You both said the same thing. Yet his wording is somehow generic

It is generic, and so was mine. But what I meant was obvious. Hypocrisy is not a scumtell.

Why did you need it out there that you wish you rolled scum? Was that just a preemptive excuse if you had bad reads?

Kind of, it was more of an explanation for why I didn't have very strong reads.

[qupte]And why did you need to find a read on fire based on nothing? Why not just have him as null since there was nothing to go off of?[/quote]
Because then he'd be null forever. There was stuff to go off of, I just didn't (and don't) know where to go with it.

So you think him having himself at the bottom was real? Like you thought he might actually legitimately have himself as his own top scum read? Having yourself at the bottom of a page one reads list is no different than a page 1 self vote

I didn't know what he meant... if he was being facetious, if he was looking for reactions, if he inverted it and put towniest at the bottom... in any event, asking someone to explain something you yourself did is not scum indicative, it's indicative of wanting to see if they did it for the same reason as you.

[Something_Smart]

dang it the one time I don't use preview...

[Something_Smart]

@FA: q = qubixes.

I will say that I feel really bad about my top scumreads both being easy mislynches. I think there is a decent probability that one or both of them will flip town. Tomorrow, regardless of who we lynch and what they flip, I want to look in the players controlling the discussion, particularly farside.

Replacing out is NAI end of story. I have heard this bullshit over and over again about one replace out is scummy or one is town and they are virtually always random. Replacing out for personal reasons or because you do not enjoy playing with a particular player/play style does not suddenly evaporate when you are scum or town. Nice try though.

Wrong.

Bullshit. replacing out is NAI period. reading into it more without some sort of reasoning is reaching and asinine.

I once played a game where I had to replace out because I saw my friend posting in the scum PT. Now if I had shared that reason with the town, do you still think it would have been NAI?

[Something_Smart]

@farside:
I don't disagree with your points against FAQ, I just have a gut feeling that he might flip town, and I don't feel as confident on him as I have on wagons in the past.
I'm throwing shade on nobody for pushing him. I believe there is almost definitely one scum in the players currently receiving no pressure, I scumread your predecessor, and I haven't been super impressed by your posts thus far.

Town just don't hammer like that, without at least calling out to the lynch target, even if we're close to deadline.

I was in a game where town!lane quickhammered town with no warning or indication that he would do so, nowhere near deadline, and the game mechanic made it that because he cut the day short scum won after the following night. (Fortunately I was scum ) And we've already seen that he's impulsive. So in this case, yes, town might do that.

[Something_Smart]

@farside if that question was for me, I never said I thought Fire was scum. In fact recently I have been leaning slightly scum on him, but regardless he's too self-aware of a player to be sorted simply by whether or not he's voting a given player.

@MM I know you don't like to be pushed around, but at this point it's basically you or him. (And I'm not trying to scare you or threaten you, it's just the truth.) If we pushed another wagon now, it would cast significant suspicion on both you and FA and probably lead to both of you getting lynched anyway and on top of that it would probably flip town. No lynching is mathematically (going from odds to evens is bad) and mechanically (fewer associations and more easy mislynches still around) inferior even to mislynching.

[Something_Smart]

I really doubt there's 3 scum.
I'm much more comfortable lynching FA than Fire. 730 is hella survivalistic.

[Something_Smart]

@Infinity: of course I'll hammer to prevent a NL but I don't think it needs to come to that.

@Wing: what do you think about Fire Assassin himself?

[Something_Smart]

But if scum!FA_Q2 is easier to catch, then what makes you think we haven't caught him already?

[Something_Smart]

74 is awkwardly phrased and tries to paint impulsive as scummy.
87 is getting into an argument that reminds me of scum backed into a corner with bad logic.
228 is a scumpost.
229 scumreads lane for hypocrisy about something only barely related to the mafia game.
He says his lane scumread is basically predicated on MM being scum in 242 but then mostly ignores MM in the following posts.

I just realized how much FA called MM scum just so he could call lane scum but avoided talking about him. Then, in 658, MM is suddenly null because he "doesn't really see the scum case against him," although he "has already outlined why lane is scum and that has not changed." When his original reason for calling lane scum was that he was dumping money to his partner, MM. I was also struck, before, by MM's weird townread of FA (even when I erroneously told him no other wagon was possible besides his own) and his not really explained push on Fire as a counterwagon to FA.

I feel better about the FA lynch now, and if he flips scum, I want MM's head tomorrow.

[Something_Smart]

Where did I scumread FA_Q2? Oh, that's right. Nowhere. My opinion of him never changed.

That's the thing.

Why have you been consistently calling FA town and trying to direct people away from him without showing any evidence of trying to sort him?

And the way you say "why would I be scumbuddies with FA_Q2" implies that there is a compelling reason for you

not

to be buddies. Since you pointed to none and there is none, it comes off simply as desperation at being caught.

Now you're trying to defend anything I say about him by simply contradicting my assertions, and conceding but waving away the things you can't contradict.

I feel really good about this lynch now.

[Something_Smart]

We will almost certainly get an extension. (Although Alchemist hadn't posted for 4 days even before the crash, so...)
Anyway, this should give us time to lynch FA, which I'm pretty confident is a better lynch than Fire.

[Something_Smart]

What do people think about my points against MM/FA? I thought they were pretty noteworthy but people seem to just be ignoring them.

[Something_Smart]

Wow, this is the game of confusing acronyms. First FA_Q2 and Fire Assassin, and now this. Watch, we're going to have RadiantCowbells replace in and then we can't use RC anymore either

[Something_Smart]

I think I understand the BBT kill. It strikes me as kind of a "don't rock the boat" kill, to eliminate a strong player who hadn't really contributed much this far.
It reminds me of the droog kill in this game.
And I think what it suggests is that town's collective reads are way off, as they were in that game. I'm very disappointed that my MM/FA theory didn't end up being true, and I think that flip means that MM is town too. I definitely want to take a closer look at farside once again.

@Shadow: if only one person wins a hand in any given day, they will be bulletproof the following night. That's the mechanic that Fire wants to (ab)use by throwing hands to townreads.

[Something_Smart]

I think I understand the BBT kill. It strikes me as kind of a "don't rock the boat" kill, to eliminate a strong player who hadn't really contributed much this far.
It reminds me of the droog kill in this game.
And I think what it suggests is that town's collective reads are way off, as they were in that game. I'm very disappointed that my MM/FA theory didn't end up being true, and I think that flip means that MM is town too. I definitely want to take a closer look at farside once again.

@Shadow: if only one person wins a hand in any given day, they will be bulletproof the following night. That's the mechanic that Fire wants to (ab)use by throwing hands to townreads.

Are you meaning that we should look at the reads made during day 1 and take them completely opposite? Who didn't even get real votes on? Who looks in control?

No, it just means that scum think they are doing well and don't want us to rethink our reads. Thus, we should rethink our reads. We shouldn't necessarily rethink all of them.

Fold

I need to think about a few things before I vote.

This is a very self conscious post.

You didn't want to vote anyone....yeah okay, but why do you feel the need to say that..?

It's self-aware, not self-conscious. Why did you feel the need to say that?

Wait, why did I vote something_smart?

VOTE: the mm

Why aren't you dead? You had a lot of money

If scum kill someone with a lot of money, most of that money just goes right back into town hands. And why would scum necessarily kill a potential mislynch like MM if he is in fact town?

I think I understand the BBT kill. It strikes me as kind of a "don't rock the boat" kill, to eliminate a strong player who hadn't really contributed much this far.
It reminds me of the droog kill in this game.
And I think what it suggests is that town's collective reads are way off, as they were in that game. I'm very disappointed that my MM/FA theory didn't end up being true, and I think that flip means that MM is town too. I definitely want to take a closer look at farside once again.

@Shadow: if only one person wins a hand in any given day, they will be bulletproof the following night. That's the mechanic that Fire wants to (ab)use by throwing hands to townreads.

I don't even know what you mean by most of this.

Scum want to kill the person who they don't want alive the most. This could be a person liable to start catching them, or one who is widely townread and is leading town in a dangerous direction. Since the scum killed BBT, who wasn't really active, engaged, or in a town leader position, it probably means they aren't too afraid of the above things happening, which probably means that the town's reads, as a whole, are fairly bad.

Wait, why did I vote something_smart?
VOTE: the mm
Why aren't you dead? You had a lot of money

I won a hand, I was freaking Bulletproof. Read'em rules.

Bulletproof only goes into effect if only one person wins money in any given DP. Read'em rules.

[Something_Smart]

@something_...smart? Who cares where the money goes? Where does the tracker and 1-shot roles topper go? Nowhere. Scum would risk a track or rolestop because he MIGHT get mislynched? Don't think so.

Scum would welcome a rolestop to send us into evens. And clearly, scum aren't afraid of a tracker. (It's not smart for town to use the tracker while multiple scum are alive anyway.)

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Fire Assassin
I don't feel like this day is moving in a productive direction.

[Something_Smart]

Lane, your logic makes zero sense.

I explained what caused my read on MM to change: the flips. I don't think he's clearly town; I may be making the error I made in this game, where I was very confident in a Newbie/Mathilda team and after Mathilda was lynched and flipped town, I stopped pushing Newbie, who was scum, because I thought my reads were totally off.

Scum might have known that MM couldn't purchase an ability and use it in the same night, or even if they didn't, they wouldn't kill him if they had any person on their team whom they didn't think MM was likely to track.

On the other hand, the advantages to not killing MM were that MM was a major scum suspect yesterday and could possibly be lynched and that then they could kill somebody more dangerous to the scum.

[Something_Smart]

Oh wow, in one page this game went from totally fine to a crap fest.
Persivul, please don't replace out. Firebringer's playing on his alt BECAUSE he wants to be more enjoyable to play with. And meta reads against people who are highly aware of their meta are not usually effective anyway.

I want to know where lane's scumread on me comes from.

Because ftr Firebringer has experience with me as both alignments and is quite good at reading me.

This had been bothering me all yesterday, and I wanted to leave Something_Smart alone to see what happened with it.

And what happened with it?

Scum would definitely know only people on the lynch get money.
Town make obvious mistakes like that.
Its in the rules.
Therefore you're scum

Reading the rules is not only for scum.

Anyone want to comment on my plan to throw games so one of us tomorrow gets BP and good abiliites?
Or we just going to treat the poker stuff as a mini game?

But the poker stuff IS a minigame, Fire. Also, that plan relies on trust in one player to work. If that player is scum, town's screwed. Besides, there's no such thing as a universally-townread player in here.
By the way, crappy hand:

Fold

.

@shadow, how do you feel about about the mm using being bulletproof as an explanation for why he wasn't killed last night, when yesterday he commented on a plan to get one person to win so they were bulletproof, saying that plan relies on trust in one player to work? Also after something_smart talked about the rule?

I think its bullshit.

To all of you munchkin rules-lawyers, slip police and other self-righteous jackasses: I thought that Bulletproof went to any player who won his hand by himself. Ties can happen, and all.

Lane's reaction strikes me as frustrated town, but that maight be simulated, still, I'll voice another suspicion of mine: farside sounds to me like the kind of "in-control" self-defined intelligent people who I'd expect a BBT kill from. VOTE: farside
I am going to flail a lot, but be wary that if you don't answer well I'm gonna track your tail till the end of time like it's noone's business.

Why are you announcing that you are going to flail?

I guess you just skimmed over the part where I said I had to essentially rethink my entire game and throw D1 out the window. Two of my biggest scumreads just flipped town.

I didn't skim.
I just note you didn't have issues with MOI replacing out day 1, didn't say anything about the fact Something Smart sat on FAQ2 while blaming others for a "possible mislynch" and you just go welp I was wrong so let me vote a player for crappy reasons.

I missed zip.

All I know for sure you brought my cynical personality into this game by your crappy reasons.
Thanks for that.

Who did I blame for a "possible mislynch"?

[Something_Smart]

I'm referring to this post, pre-flip.

@FA: q = qubixes.

I will say that I feel really bad about my top scumreads both being easy mislynches. I think there is a decent probability that one or both of them will flip town. Tomorrow, regardless of who we lynch and what they flip, I want to look in the players controlling the discussion, particularly farside.

Replacing out is NAI end of story. I have heard this bullshit over and over again about one replace out is scummy or one is town and they are virtually always random. Replacing out for personal reasons or because you do not enjoy playing with a particular player/play style does not suddenly evaporate when you are scum or town. Nice try though.

Wrong.

Bullshit. replacing out is NAI period. reading into it more without some sort of reasoning is reaching and asinine.

I once played a game where I had to replace out because I saw my friend posting in the scum PT. Now if I had shared that reason with the town, do you still think it would have been NAI?

Again, who was I blaming for a possible mislynch?

[Something_Smart]

Something smart: you want to explain why you kept your vote on someone you thought might flip town.

...
Listen to yourself.

Bet $40

I have no idea why everyone is folding when we can organize this much better.
Just frustrating me and I am probably going to stop talking about this mechanic and just focusing on scumhunting.

I have town reads on Lane and Wingback,
I feel pretty confident on those, I am thinking that MM is scum, but unsure of allies still.
Something Smart possibly not sure on who with?

Farside I am null on but I could possibly see it.

TOo many preflip asosciations.

I say we flip MM today and if we are wrong we can reaccess.

ANyone elses thoughts? (Not on the poker mechanics that we obviously can't do)

Why don't you want to reassess first? I, at least, had a major scumread flip town.

Bet $40

I have no idea why everyone is folding when we can organize this much better.
Just frustrating me and I am probably going to stop talking about this mechanic and just focusing on scumhunting.

I have town reads on Lane and Wingback,
I feel pretty confident on those, I am thinking that MM is scum, but unsure of allies still.
Something Smart possibly not sure on who with?

Farside I am null on but I could possibly see it.

TOo many preflip asosciations.

I say we flip MM today and if we are wrong we can reaccess.

ANyone elses thoughts? (Not on the poker mechanics that we obviously can't do)

Sorry about that.
I have wing and lane as strong town reads too. Next hand I would give to either of them.
Fire I would put as town.

Not sure why I'm null but whatever.
Side-Step is null.

I had a crazy theory about MM, Something smart and Infinity as scum team. But that seems too easy and I don't think Infinity is that dumb.
MM for sure, waiting on Smart to explain himself better and infinity, well he made one case and seems pretty quiet overall today, which is disturbing me.
RC went to null mostly for being a lazy ass.

What makes you think there are three scum?

[Something_Smart]

Also I love when players dodge questions like something smart does.

You want me to answer the question?
The answer is that I don't have a magical voice inside my head telling me everyone's alignment. So of course I'm going to recognize that my scumread might be wrong.

What did you expect to learn from asking that question?

[Something_Smart]

2 scum versus 9 town can be ridiculously scumsided depending on the setup. I doubt there's a traitor.

And what about my calling you scum doesn't sound genuine?

[Something_Smart]

I was talking about MM. Yesterday we both scumread MM. Today you want to lynch him and then reconsider your reads, but he was one of the reads I wanted to reconsider.

[Something_Smart]

2 scum versus 9 town can be ridiculously scumsided depending on the setup. I doubt there's a traitor.

And what about my calling you scum doesn't sound genuine?

Why would it be terribly scum sided? I don't understand, 9v2 would mean that scum need 4 mislynches.
I'd call that terribly town sided if anything.

It says it somewhere on this page. Mountainous games are just really hard for town. Town's EV for 9v2 is like 35%, and towns usually underperform EV's in mountainous games because getting that first scumflip can be super hard.

Are you fucking with me? Or... How is that hard to fake? Sarcasm is used my scum to discredit town often.

Farside. I'm going to need you to come in here and explain your mm, ss, infinity theory

I'm phone posting so no links or quotes will be used during this.

The reason I thought this was the way infinty keeps calling the 2 of them town above others.
Also on day 2 ss said with faq2 lynch mm is town.
Based on theory?
That's just crap.
Infinty pushes mm scummy comments as nothing and calls players scummy for making points against him.
Again I can't see Infinity being this bad as scum to defend scum buddies that blantenly but I can't see town Infinity ignoring someone blantenly scummy either.

Anyways that's were I stand currently.

When did I use theory to say MM is town? I had a theory; not the same thing.

Also I love when players dodge questions like something smart does.

You want me to answer the question?
The answer is that I don't have a magical voice inside my head telling me everyone's alignment. So of course I'm going to recognize that my scumread might be wrong.

What did you expect to learn from asking that question?

You apologies for the read.
Called it a mislynch and kept your vote on a player, all while throwing shade at others for making cases.
That's town to you?

Show me where I called FA a mislynch. I said "I feel bad about FA and MM both being easy mislynches"... that doesn't mean I think they ARE mislynches, just that they are potential mislynches.
And show me where I threw shade on someone else for making a case.

Notice infinity and something_smart delaying poker hands.

So?

[Something_Smart]

So if you were town youd realize the only way to get power roles was to maximize poker hands

Unless you consider bulletproof a power role.
Nobody decided conclusively one way or the other if we would do the bulletproof plan, so I didn't like people rushing the hand.
But since there's no way I'd get bulletproof anyway,

Fold

[Something_Smart]

I was talking about MM. Yesterday we both scumread MM. Today you want to lynch him and then reconsider your reads, but he was one of the reads I wanted to reconsider.

But it still doesn't make sense even if you talk about someone else.
You say I am scum but you want me to reconsider reads, so either your scumread isn't strong and you think I am town, which the tone in your posts suggest you HIGHLY think I am town. Or you don't have a scumread on me.

I did scumread you before the claim. But it wasn't very strong. I don't see why I can't interact with you as if you are town, and see if you respond the way I'd think you would as town. Ftr, you didn't, but I'm willing to back off because of the claim.
UNVOTE:

See my problem Something Smart is, when I think someone is scum, I don't ask them to relook at their reads. I ask them "Why are your reads like this?" if I am unsure of them. If I probe deeper I think I get a better read, you telling me "You should recheck these" seems manipulative.

Why? I'm trying to strengthen my read on you and work with if you do turn out to be town.

[Something_Smart]

I want to vote farside, but I suspect that 938 is a scumslip if there are 3 scum and a townslip if there aren't, and if there are 3 scum then I'd rather just give up now.
I still scumread Fire and MM, but I don't want to lynch them until later because of their PR's.

So I'm kinda stumped. I guess I'll reread Infinity and Shadow and see if anything pings me.

[Something_Smart]

Fold

@SS How can you be scumreading me and MM? When did MM claim a PR?

I don't know, why is that impossible? I don't think you're scum together.

He didn't claim a PR, but he bought Tracker, so he effectively has one.

Pedit: RC what do you think about 938? Do you think it was a slip?

[Something_Smart]

Fold

@SS How can you be scumreading me and MM? When did MM claim a PR?

I don't know, why is that impossible? I don't think you're scum together.

He didn't claim a PR, but he bought Tracker, so he effectively has one.

Pedit: RC what do you think about 938? Do you think it was a slip?

I'm always reluctant about using the word "slip", because, in my experience, it happens very rarely. I've done it twice in, what, 8 years. I don't know how often farside has done it. It just doesn't happen often, and the chances of it happening necessarily go down with a scummer's seniority.

That said, I think it was a very eye-opening comment that is worthy of pressure and/or attention at this time.

Do you think farside would make up something like that if she were part of a 2-person scumteam?

[Something_Smart]

I wouldn't mind Infinity being shot tonight.

@Fire: how come you didn't shoot N1?

[Something_Smart]

Ok Infinity, imagine you're in MM's place and you're scum. How do you justify not giving away that money?
And further, what is the likelihood that that $200-something that you lose will either not enable you to buy a power you otherwise could buy or enable a town player to buy a power that makes a difference in the game?

[Something_Smart]

Wingback is confirmed town.

[Something_Smart]

I don't believe he would be stupid enough to inno his partner.

[Something_Smart]

Wingback doesn't have to be his partner. Scum infinity can easily claim that he has an innocent on any player and in this case Wingback who has had a town read on him.
Infinity could just be pocketing Wingback .

Yes but in that scenario Wingback is still town.

My point is, Wingback is only NOT town if Infinity and Wingback are partners. Since I find that scenario very unlikely, we can assume that Wingback is town.

[Something_Smart]

This isn't a normal game; however, a lot of mods and players hate godfathers and I personally don't think closed setups should include them.

[Something_Smart]

@MM: What about Infinity's defense of you could not be scum whiteknighting you for towncred after you die?

I'm confused by how Infinity and farside both cite an excellent newb reading record (ftr, mind is terrible and that's why I keep going back and forth on MM) yet arrive at a different conclusion regarding MM. It makes me question Infinity calling MM obv!newbtown in particular.

I think there's one scum in <farside, RC>.

[Something_Smart]

Oh wait MM got replaced.
I need to pay more attention lol.

@Infinity: is that just PoE or is it because of his reads?

[Something_Smart]

Oh yeah that. The short answer is that my reads change and the vote on MM was pressure because I found him hard to read. I still find him hard to read, and I don't think the FA townflip necessarily means he's town, it just knocks out one of the reasons for which I thought he was scum (the strange interactions between the two).

@Infinity: the reasons listed along with the vote are fairly weak as the foundation for a read. What do you think of his comments regarding Wingback and the godfather debate?

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Shadow_step

[Something_Smart]

Hmm I also think there's one scum in <Shadow_step, Infinity>. I want to scumread them both but they make no sense as partners.

Also, Shadow seemed to imply that he knew that there were 3 scum, and there being 3 scum makes Infinity's claim more believable.

[Something_Smart]

Hmm I also think there's one scum in <Shadow_step, Infinity>. I want to scumread them both but they make no sense as partners.

Also, Shadow seemed to imply that he knew that there were 3 scum, and there being 3 scum makes Infinity's claim more believable.

???? Seemed to imply?? When ?

Smart is just essentially prod dodging at this point in the game.

Here:

2 scum versus 9 town can be ridiculously scumsided depending on the setup. I doubt there's a traitor.

And what about my calling you scum doesn't sound genuine?

Why would it be terribly scum sided? I don't understand, 9v2 would mean that scum need 4 mislynches.
I'd call that terribly town sided if anything.

[Something_Smart]

Hmm I also think there's one scum in <Shadow_step, Infinity>. I want to scumread them both but they make no sense as partners.

Also, Shadow seemed to imply that he knew that there were 3 scum, and there being 3 scum makes Infinity's claim more believable.

???? Seemed to imply?? When ?

Smart is just essentially prod dodging at this point in the game.

Here:

2 scum versus 9 town can be ridiculously scumsided depending on the setup. I doubt there's a traitor.

And what about my calling you scum doesn't sound genuine?

Why would it be terribly scum sided? I don't understand, 9v2 would mean that scum need 4 mislynches.
I'd call that terribly town sided if anything.

That's called using common sense .

That's not common sense for somebody who's never played in an 11-player game before. For you to say it is sounds an awful lot like someone who already knows the scum ratio of this game.

[Something_Smart]

I think Fire should shoot Infinity iff Shadow flips town.

[Something_Smart]

Hmm I also think there's one scum in <Shadow_step, Infinity>. I want to scumread them both but they make no sense as partners.

Also, Shadow seemed to imply that he knew that there were 3 scum, and there being 3 scum makes Infinity's claim more believable.

[Something_Smart]

On what wagon?

[Something_Smart]

Lol @ those autocorrects.
I don't know why he would switch. I mean, the obvious reason would be to capitalize on RC pressure and maybe score a mislynch there while keeping Shadow around to mislynch later.
That would make him a likely partner with you. I haven't looked at the ISOs though so I don't know how plausible that is.

[Something_Smart]

Lol @ those autocorrects.
I don't know why he would switch. I mean, the obvious reason would be to capitalize on RC pressure and maybe score a mislynch there while keeping Shadow around to mislynch later.
That would make him a likely partner with you. I haven't looked at the ISOs though so I don't know how plausible that is.

*count down to town loss.*

Did you even read the case on RC or are you on tunnelling mode?

Umm... no? I'm in hypothetical mode, where Infinity is scum. If Infinity is scum then I doubt RC is his partner because of that jump. As illustrated by my vote, I think the scum in that pair is more likely Shadow.

[Something_Smart]

Lmao shadow.

@farside:
Shadow is my top scumread. If he flips town, Infinity will be my top scumread.

I don't think I've been paying close enough attention to make preflip associatives. I tried it with FA and it failed. So if Shadow flips scum then I'll have to take a closer look at how the day played out.
Same for Infinity, but off the top of my head I could see you being his partner.

No, but you would need to convince me that RC is a better lynch than Shadow, and one way to do that would be to make me feel better about you.

I'm not in the mood to make a whole case but besides that and his claim being mighty convenient, his reads and pushes don't feel genuine (MM and me notably), sometimes he says stuff that just doesn't make sense and feels superficial (794 and 1086, just skimming his ISO), and I don't like the way he's calling you town.

Actually, the way he chose to jump off the Shadow wagon might make them potential partners. I may retract the "iff" thing.

[Something_Smart]

If I recall correctly, nobody asked me for a case.

[Something_Smart]

What's your point?

[Something_Smart]

How did you just simultaneously imply that I was town and suggest that I had ulterior motives?

Like, how does that even work?

[Something_Smart]

I'm voting you because I think you're scum.

Is that hard to understand?

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: RedCoyote
I'm okay with this. But I think if it flips town we should be looking hard at farside.

[Something_Smart]

Hmm... 65%?

[Something_Smart]

I could see it. Especially if they have a third partner.

[Something_Smart]

That's kinda true, tbh I was really annoyed by the FAQ flip.

[Something_Smart]

It is when you're this confident and it's wrong.

[Something_Smart]

My current guess for scum is farside/Infinity/shadow.

Don't rush things though because I'm V/LA with bad mobile access only until Tuesday, and I might want to make a case or two.

[Something_Smart]

Also given that we might be in LYLO I wonder if it's a good idea to massclaim.

Pedid: what about it?

[Something_Smart]

I'm on mobile so I haven't looked at ISOs yet.
But some of it's PoE: I think you and lane are town, and kinda Math though I do need to hear their catchup thoughts.
Farside because of the RC push. Infinity because I haven't liked his posting and he makes sense with farside. Shadow because I haven't liked his posting. (I'll pull quotes later.)
I remember yesterday looking at ISOs and saying I could see a farside/Infinity team. I also remember saying I could see Infinity/Shadow bussing. I haven't yet looked at farside/Shadow interactions, though they both appeared to strongly believe that there were three scum.

[Something_Smart]

Depends on the rest of the claims.
VT.
Popcorn to Shadow.

Pedit: I said I'll pull quotes when I'm off mobile.

[Something_Smart]

That's fair, but why do you think Infinity is scum?

I haven't said he was scum, the only way he is scum is if it was with you or if scum have a roleblocker thats on me to prevent me from shooting him.

The fact I am not dead told me he is likely actually town.

I disagree. If you had actually shot as you said you would, you would be confirmed town regardless of whether you shot scum.

And what about my reads (besides this) doesn't make sense?

[Something_Smart]

Ok this game is way too confusing.
Imma need a computer and a decent internet connection to figure it out.

[Something_Smart]

Lane and mathblade, calm down. Town getting riled up is a great way for scum to win.

Mathblade, you're wrong about lane but right about fire. Lane's post wasn't a scum slip, I don't see what you're talking about. And if lane wanted to give money to fire, fire would've just called him.

Lane, I don't know why mathblade is still alive but killing confirmed town makes sense no matter who scum is.

Scumpost.

[Something_Smart]

Farside, you just keep complaining about lane having not made a case on Shadow while at the same time not having a case on me. Nothing wrong with that at all.

[Something_Smart]

[Something_Smart]

Hey Titus, I hope you bring some sanity into this game.

+1

[Something_Smart]

What is this game I can't even.

I kind of want to just find a strong townread and sheep them, but my strongest townread is Titus (who's voting me ) and I'm even having doubts about that slot.

The good news is that there's probably only 2 scum given that no quickhammer has occurred. And I'm still somewhat confident that farside is scum (or at least needs pressure), so:

VOTE: farside

What do people think about my points against MM/FA? I thought they were pretty noteworthy but people seem to just be ignoring them.

I think I understand the BBT kill. It strikes me as kind of a "don't rock the boat" kill, to eliminate a strong player who hadn't really contributed much this far.
It reminds me of the droog kill in this game.
And I think what it suggests is that town's collective reads are way off, as they were in that game. I'm very disappointed that my MM/FA theory didn't end up being true, and I think that flip means that MM is town too. I definitely want to take a closer look at farside once again.

@Shadow: if only one person wins a hand in any given day, they will be bulletproof the following night. That's the mechanic that Fire wants to (ab)use by throwing hands to townreads.

Were you scum reading MM based on their interactions only or anything else?

It was mostly interactions. I am terrible at reading newbies, so I was really hesitant to commit to a strong read on him.

[Something_Smart]

Sorry lol. My case in a nutshell is that you don't just get to walk away free after mislynching RC like that.

What questions did you want answered?

[Something_Smart]

Sorry lol. My case in a nutshell is that you don't just get to walk away free after mislynching RC like that.

What questions did you want answered?

I asked you how often you see scum pushing case vs sheeping votes.

I don't know, offhand I'd say that scum push cases over sheeping them more than town on average. It's wildly dependent on the player and the situation though.

Sorry lol. My case in a nutshell is that you don't just get to walk away free after mislynching RC like that.

What questions did you want answered?

Farside smart -- I think you are both town.

@Smart a mislynch is all of town's fault always. Unless you have specific scummy posts and some sort of logical reasoning more than what I have posted not going to consider farside.

Not when the town is willing to trust one player's ability to read another, as I did with farside.

[Something_Smart]

Fold

[Something_Smart]

Don't color yourself green in a VCA.

[Something_Smart]

Lol, I just noticed this:

I will inform players when it is Lylo.

I guess we can settle the question of how many scum there are for good.

That's good because this game is a mess.

[Something_Smart]

Why am I scum?

[Something_Smart]

Why does that make you conftown?

[Something_Smart]

This interaction gives me a (relatively) strong feeling that Infinity is scum and Mathblade is town.

[Something_Smart]

Fire just an FYI if math is scum I want you to see this. I find comments like this association of a scum buddy.

I have been feeling like Something_Smart is scum, but really not to do with associations.
He has been doing a classic scum tell of sitting in the background of the day and floating that middle ground.
He has no focus on him so he just says a few comments so people know he is here, but doesn't try to game solve or take focus.

Ill look at the associations though, could be damning.

You've seen my scumgame. Do you really think this is it?
Also, what middle ground? I think the scum are Infinity and farside. I'm just not too involved in this game and nobody's trying to engage me anyway.

[Something_Smart]

Why?

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Something_Smart

YAH

VOTE: Smart

Nobody hammer yet, I want to at least put some final effort into this game and produce a readlist.

[Something_Smart]

Why?

[Something_Smart]

Why?

I've explained this already.

All I can find is that I pushed FAQ while admitting that he might be town.

And you hard pushed RC while saying I probably wasn't scum with RC, so...

[Something_Smart]

Sorry guys, I'm on vacation but I didn't want to go V/LA because I just did and because I should be able to meet activity requirements (I'm not restricted to mobile like last time).
I will probably be able to post tonight.

(Also I had a dream that we lynched farside and she flipped scum soooo...)

[Something_Smart]

@Smart what is your read on the MM slot, do you still think he is town?

Yes. MM's play felt newbtownish at times, I haven't seen anything terrible from Mathblade, and Infinity has been whiteknighting the heck out of the slot the whole game.

Why?

I've explained this already.

All I can find is that I pushed FAQ while admitting that he might be town.

And you hard pushed RC while saying I probably wasn't scum with RC, so...

Whoa there is a huge difference between proposing two potential scum teams and then pushing someone you think might be town. Like how does this compare for you?

What? I'm not comparing anything...

Why?

I've explained this already.

All I can find is that I pushed FAQ while admitting that he might be town.

And you hard pushed RC while saying I probably wasn't scum with RC, so...

Shouldn't you be more concerned about lynching scum instead of self defending.
Lets assume we are wrong.

Lets see what you have basically done in last few pages.
Lurked until a wagon formed on you, then start going into defense mode.

You may have had "scum reads" but you definitely haven't been pushing them that hard. Your motives seem to skate by and now do damage control.

Here's the thing.
I'm appalled that farside tunneled the crap out of RC and then got absolutely no attention when he flipped town.
I shouldn't need to push her.

And btw, I'm pretty disengaged because nobody seems interested in what I have to say, even when it's obvious, and now I'm being wagoned for not interacting because I don't have a quotewall to back up my opinions.

Now Titus needs to fold...

Shadow_step needs to quit derping.
Smart needs to be playing and posting reads.

Logically my gut says Smart is scum. My gut says that he isn't. This is turning way too fast for my liking.

I have posted my reads. Farside and Infinity are scum.

Sorry guys, I'm on vacation but I didn't want to go V/LA because I just did and because I should be able to meet activity requirements (I'm not restricted to mobile like last time).
I will probably be able to post tonight.

(Also I had a dream that we lynched farside and she flipped scum soooo...)

Looks at role pm
Nope that dream is a lie.

Lol, maybe. But either way I'm pretty sure it confirms me as town.
I already said I'm vacationing; I'm currently in Pacific time (I live in Eastern time). That post was made at 7:45 for me, not very long after I woke up.
So to assume I'm scum implies one of three scenarios:

1. I'm scum with farside and the dream was real. That doesn't make sense because if farside were my partner I wouldn't be bussing her.
2. I'm scum, but not with farside, and the dream was real. That doesn't make sense because my subconscious doesn't play Mafia and can't get into a town mindset like that.
3. I'm scum, but not with farside, and the dream was made up. That doesn't make sense because there's no way I'd be able invent something like that that early in the morning, when I'm already tired because of jet lag.

So everyone should unvote me now. (Also take note of how farside immediately believed the dream was real, which feels a lot like a scumslip.)

[Something_Smart]

Farside, why are you avoiding my argument for me being confirmed town?

[Something_Smart]

Smart -- That doesn't townfirm you in the slightest. You are saying you can't lie because of jet lag? Lol does that mean everything in my dreams is reality? Furthermore scum chat is a thing. If we used your arums T we'd all be townfirmed and never lynched because "I am so sleepy I can't lie". That is crap.

So what do you think about farside immediately believing that the dream was real?

[Something_Smart]

2) my last comment was a joke, thinking I was taking your seriously at all is a stretch

Ok fair enough. But do you think I would fake something like that as scum?

I'm trying hard not to laugh at smart about how desperate he is making a joke as a scum tell.

It's okay, you can laugh. But it's well documented that I get more serious as scum when under pressure.

[Something_Smart]

I think Math is right.

That doesn't make me not think you are scum.

[Something_Smart]

hehehe
Haven't you ever read

The Stand

?
I bet farside is the dark man.

[Something_Smart]

Lol I don't blame you it's ridiculously long.
Anyway, one problem with that is that we townread each other, but we scumread completely different people.
Do you want to talk to me about why you townread Infinity and farside? (and I can do the same with Fire and Titus.)

[Something_Smart]

Farside is town through genuine poking and reading the game.

Can you get more specific than this? I think farside is experienced enough to be able to do this as either alignment.

What do you think of farside's RC push?

[Something_Smart]

Well from his POV, if Fire is going to shoot him tonight if he is in fact real, mislynching a not-Fire player (coughcoughME) would be game over.
I guess a possibility is to no-lynch, have Fire shoot Math and have Math track Shadow, if Fire is dead-set on shooting Math.

[Something_Smart]

I think Titus, Shadow_step and Mathblade are town.

Fire, can you promise me that you'll shoot in <farside, Infinity> tonight?

Honestly I'd prefer you shoot Infinity. Since I'm flipping town his cop result won't be valid anyway because it will be LYLO.

Also I recommend that Mathblade tracks Shadow to make sure he can't interfere with Fire's shot, if it in fact exists.

[Something_Smart]

Math how confident are you that Shadow is town?

[Something_Smart]

I think Titus, Shadow_step and Mathblade are town.

Fire, can you promise me that you'll shoot in <farside, Infinity> tonight?

Honestly I'd prefer you shoot Infinity. Since I'm flipping town his cop result won't be valid anyway because it will be LYLO.

Also I recommend that Mathblade tracks Shadow to make sure he can't interfere with Fire's shot, if it in fact exists.

Shooting infinity fails unless scum also shoot him.

Infinity should get the cop check?

Oh crap Infinity is bulletproof isn't he.

Okay,
VOTE: NL

[Something_Smart]

No, the smart play is to track Shadow.

That way scum!Fire can't say, "oh, I tried to shoot so-and-so, but they didn't die, so Shadow must have jailkept me to frame me".

[Something_Smart]

Predictions:
I flip town
Fire shoots Math ANYWAY
Scumteam of farside/Infinity wins

[Something_Smart]

So you're shooting Mathblade regardless of my flip?
And when did I say you were scum?

[Something_Smart]

You're that convinced that I'm scum

...and your case is "lurked, then got defensive when wagoned"?

[Something_Smart]

orly?

it's the first time people have actually interacted with me all day

Also, answer my other question. When did I say you were scum?

[Something_Smart]

No, it isn't. It's considering the possibility that you're scum.

Of course, by PoE you're my third scum pick behind farside and Infinity. And you may be making your way up that list now, not sure yet.

@Everyone: could you see an Infinity/Fire team both claiming PR's without realizing that all the townies were VTs?

[Something_Smart]

You've made no points about Infinity on why he is scum and day 2 you thought shadow was scum but said nothing about him day 3.

Infinity has been whiteknighting the Mathblade slot all game, his cop check was really bad, and I've explained my other points against him previously.
Shadow is notorious lynchbait (in my experience) and I thought his actions made sense as part of a larger picture as well as individually. Now I don't.

[Something_Smart]

I'm waiting for someone to give a good reason to be voting for whom they are voting for other then he hasn't shot anyone. Or X is still alive after claiming or X pushed a case on town therefore X is scum.

The person I am voting hasn't shot anyone yet, is somehow still alive despite getting no pressure the whole game, and hasn't pushed any reasonable wagons the whole game.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah your vote makes total sense.

Do you not see the reasoning behind it?

If you think Fire is scum, why wouldn't you go along with it?

Also I thought you were scumreading me for associations with Math, is that still the case?

[Something_Smart]

Tracker doesn't confirm anyone if you tell scum who you're targeting...

Shadow is confirmed scum if he roleblocks me.

Yes, but unless Math tracks him, the only person who will know that is you.

Yeah your vote makes total sense.

Do you not see the reasoning behind it?

If you think Fire is scum, why wouldn't you go along with it?

Also I thought you were scumreading me for associations with Math, is that still the case?

Again that's sarcasm, which is clear based on what I presented against you.

Yes, I realize it's sarcasm. You don't see why it makes sense. Would you like me to explain why it makes sense?

And do you think Fire is scum or don't you?

@Shadow: why do you think I'm scum?

Pedit: Infinity, do you see my logic behind NL?

[Something_Smart]

^ this

Scum don't have a roleblocker. If someone is roleblocked shadow is confirmed scum. So shadow doesn't really need to be tracked for JK anyway, so math should try to catch someone making the kill.

I doubt smart is scum, but I'll hammer him to avoid a no lynch I guess.

How do you know scum don't have a roleblocker?

Even with 2 PRs it wouldn't make much sense, with 1 just no. There's just not enough town for for an RB to be necessary/useful.

Tracker doesn't confirm anyone if you tell scum who you're targeting...

Shadow is confirmed scum if he roleblocks me.

Yes, but unless Math tracks him, the only person who will know that is you.

True

I'd rather have 2 different results that are less reliable than one that is very reliable imo.

Infinity, do you see my logic behind NL?

If fire is town, it keeps us in odds...I just don't see fire as town.

Am I missing something?

PEdit: wtf shadow? You think rb makes sense in this setup?

Well, it makes it so town-Fire has no reason not to shoot. So either Fire shoots and is confirmed, and the game continues even if he misses, or he doesn't and is confirmed scum.

And btw I think one reliable result is more valuable than two less reliable ones.

[Something_Smart]

You will have to do some hard conviencing that smart is town because right now I don't see why scum Shadow wouldn't just fucking hammer at this point.

Scum shadow figures if he makes one more opportunistic as fuck vote, maybe people will start thinking he's scum

Your case of "smart has no case" is almost as bad as smart's non-case itself. He hasn't been putting as much effort into the game since d1, that doesn't mean he's scum.

I said more then that about smart.

I said more than that about you.

7) My reads are Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah Farside

why

[Something_Smart]

ftr Infinity is leaning slightly more town and Fire slightly more scum.
My reads are something like:
TOWN -- Mathblade -- Titus -- Shadow_step -- Fire Assassin -- Infinity 324 -- farside22 -- SCUM
But they're not that strong so feel free to make this one of the games where everyone ignores my reads after I am lynched. (Usually they're terrible anyway.)

[Something_Smart]

I am voting no lynch, in order to let the bullets resolve it WITHOUT potentially ending the game.

[Something_Smart]

No lynch is stupid. All it does is end in my death and then day starts over again tomorrow and people have to figure out if Fire is truth telling or not.

What if Shadow were to JK you?

Infinity - If you believe I am town please cop Farside tonight. Their reads are terribad and without reason and leaves open the possibility of Farside/smart especially with the scum won't hammer post. If Farside is confirmed town having them decide the game IMO is best. If they are confirmed scum can duke it out.

True, except that Infinity inno'ing his partner is plausible here, whereas it wasn't before.

Farside -- Same thing here. Smart's reads sketch me out on one of the two of you or Infinity being scum. This feels like 1800 something is very very wrong.

Huh? My reads are farside and one of <Fire, Infinity> are scum.

@Titus -- Correction. Using brain is town. Letting chips fall where they may is bad. How can you not see this?

This is true, but sometimes using your brain is counterproductive. This may be one of those times.

[Something_Smart]

*VOTECOUNTING INTENSIFIES*

[Something_Smart]

no pls

I want to at least buy an ability

[Something_Smart]

gg

I have no regrets

fire why the hell did you fakeclaim vig