Mini Normal 2267 | Music Hits of 2010-2014 | GAME OVER

[MalcolmTucker]

Hello all, how goes it.

[MalcolmTucker]

angela I’m not going to lie - I find your concern for disclosure around a Vengeful role Scummy. The impact from there being a Vengeful role in the game is that the Scum can’t be certain that a coordinated hammer would end the game in what’s presumed to be ELo. Other than that, there’s no true downside for Town unless the Vengeful Town, if it exists, shoots incorrectly prior to Endgame. At Endgame, there isn’t much of a downside to shooting incorrectly since the game would’ve been lost if their role didn’t exist.

Having said that, I suspect you would have asked your Scum buddies these questions outside of this thread, so perhaps too brazen for Scum. I just don’t think this conversation is helpful for the Town.

Dunno about anyone else but got a bit of a weird vibe from these two posts in sequence. Andre goes in on Angela potentially being mafia, but then very much appears to walk it back almost immediately afterwards as if wary they've perhaps gone in too heavily for such an early point in the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

angela I’m not going to lie - I find your concern for disclosure around a Vengeful role Scummy. The impact from there being a Vengeful role in the game is that the Scum can’t be certain that a coordinated hammer would end the game in what’s presumed to be ELo. Other than that, there’s no true downside for Town unless the Vengeful Town, if it exists, shoots incorrectly prior to Endgame. At Endgame, there isn’t much of a downside to shooting incorrectly since the game would’ve been lost if their role didn’t exist.

Having said that, I suspect you would have asked your Scum buddies these questions outside of this thread, so perhaps too brazen for Scum. I just don’t think this conversation is helpful for the Town.

Dunno about anyone else but got a bit of a weird vibe from these two posts in sequence. Andre goes in on Angela potentially being mafia, but then very much appears to walk it back almost immediately afterwards as if wary they've perhaps gone in too heavily for such an early point in the game.

I found it weird that post 25 and post 27 were so pointed..

I don’t even know if everyone had popped in yet..

hm

would you expect andresvmb to wait for everyone to post first?

I think Scorpious meant more that it felt a bit like a very pointed accusation for so early in the game (and thus perhaps falsified/exaggerated).

But then throwing theories out there is part of the game so I acknowledge it could also just be town trying to shake things up.

[MalcolmTucker]

Can someone explain the immediate wave of suspicion/possible wagoning on NM? Feel like I'm missing some important meta stuff here, most of that exchange gone right over me.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: angela

VOTE: kittytacky

Ooh, do me next..

Love when a slots only 2 posts are naked votes..

Love…it…

Maybe feels a bit more lazy town than mafia to me though? I dunno, no meta on Rathe but I feel like most mafia players will at least want to give some justification for a fairly lazy vote early on.

[MalcolmTucker]

Can someone explain the immediate wave of suspicion/possible wagoning on NM? Feel like I'm missing some important meta stuff here, most of that exchange gone right over me.

NM is an infamous player with a very unconventional and trollish style of play that makes him difficult to read. He doesn't straight up gamethrow or anything but he has a shtick of hammering anyone at E-1. It's often proposed to lim him early so he doesn't get in the way, but I feel it's silly to lim a null player when other players might yet make themselves scummy.

Okay cool, anecdotally only played with them in one game, they did exactly this and turned out to be mafia. Agreed getting rid of them turn one on this basis is a poor idea and kinda suspicions though.

[MalcolmTucker]

if you played with NM before and he did this as scum then why are you saying that its a poor idea?

Because we don't learn anything from it if he does this all the time, it's clearly not indicative of his alignment.

But yeah as per post above happy to move on.

[MalcolmTucker]

Kittytack is getting attention because they are one of the few players willing to try and explain their reasoning, and so just easy to keep pressure on them

VOTE: kitty

Yeah I'm not quite getting this. Do you actually think Kitty is worthy of pressure or not? Are they not already under plenty of pressure given your logic behind the vote? Why not push yourself on them if you think it's so important for that to happen?

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't think Kitty has seemed particularly mafia so far for what it's worth. The TvT thing didn't alarm me all that much, felt like a reasonable comment to make.

[MalcolmTucker]

sup andres

Hey Pooky. I gotta say, I’m going to try and be careful with your slot.

I know have a Scum game under my belt, so you can go take a look at that and compare it to my play here over time. It should be obvious what I am.

angela I’m not going to lie - I find your concern for disclosure around a Vengeful role Scummy. The impact from there being a Vengeful role in the game is that the Scum can’t be certain that a coordinated hammer would end the game in what’s presumed to be ELo. Other than that, there’s no true downside for Town unless the Vengeful Town, if it exists, shoots incorrectly prior to Endgame. At Endgame, there isn’t much of a downside to shooting incorrectly since the game would’ve been lost if their role didn’t exist.

Having said that, I suspect you would have asked your Scum buddies these questions outside of this thread, so perhaps too brazen for Scum. I just don’t think this conversation is helpful for the Town.

I have rolled Town 96.2% of the time on this forum. Unbeatable.

VOTE: Andresvmb

Happy to change this in time as andre posts more going forward but I feel like this is an okay early vote for now.

Not sure how other people feel, but these posts come across as a bit desperate to come across as helpful townie for me.

Like I said before the initial accusation on Angela before the quick and sudden rollback in the next post hinted at some uncertainty for me, as if Andre was wary they'd gone in too hard. Then followed up after that by a joke to try and diffuse the situation.

[MalcolmTucker]

I’m not wary of going “hard”. What a bunch of crap. I explained why I didn’t think the conversation was +Town. I also said that even if that’s the case, I don’t think Scum would be so blatant about it. Additionally, I actually think angela has been asking solid questions (though I wouldn’t settle on angela being Town just yet for forever).

As I said it's still early game and I'm more than happy to change my mind - but it kinda just interested me and gave me an early mafia vibe, throw out a strong accusation but then roll back on it shortly afterwards.

Your posts over the past couple of pages feel a bit panicky as well to be honest.

[MalcolmTucker]

It really is a very low risk lim. Not really expecting much hunting from N_M.

I think you’re likely to be Scum. So I don’t want to do NM and would much rather you be executed.

If Scorpious is mafia and NM isn't then I'd argue Scorpious has no particular reason to divert the conversation away from NM - recurring chat about someone's meta role in a way that's disconnected from this particular game benefits mafia because it lets them coast by without actually having to post all that much content about this particular game.

I think it's probably unlikely they're mafia together though as it'd be too obvious a move for Scorpious to try and direct the chat away from NM. Personally feel like his annoyance seems genuine even if I don't fully agree with the extent to which he didn't want people discussing NM. If NM is mafia, then I reckon his teammates would have been more likely to try and move the conversation on naturally in a way that could appear more townie without making an obvious connection.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry just caught up. I generally agree with Rathe's post a few pages back that it's fairly likely mafia are being quiet so far - a lot of the arguments between players feel like they're going in half-hearted, half of them are barely even about this game and we're getting little info.

It also doesn't feel like we're regularly or even semi-regularly seeing new wagons properly pushed or suggested beyond occasional notions - I reckon there's an ok chance mafia are fairly happy with the gamestate right now and don't see the need to mess around with.

I'm getting town vibes from Scorpious a good bit, I don't think their posts are perfect but for the most part they seem genuine in a way I don't reckon is too mafia at the moment.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm somewhat torn on Andre. I thought their initial replies after the first accusations against them were panicking in a way that felt unnatural. Their fairly abrasive playing style after that though started to feel more townie insofar as they appeared to be drawing a lot of attention to themselves when it probably wasn't to their benefit. But as they went on I don't like how they kept on going round in circles about how their play was being perceived by other players - eventually felt like it was conveniently distracting from the game itself in a way that wasn't needed. If you're town then you don't always need to have the last word in a situation like that.

[MalcolmTucker]

UNVOTE: andresvmb

Slight change in style could of course be deliberate but been liking his posts a bit more. He's looking out for contradictions in play and trying to push people in a way that can hopefully drive forward what's been a really static game so far without much of note happening.

A bit like Scorpious despite their disagreements - both keen to get the game properly moving.

[MalcolmTucker]

didnt rly like the interaction with scorpius n pooky but i would probably still add pooky in the town group

From a meta POV, does anyone know if Pooky tends to make less effort in general if mafia as opposed to town or vice versa? I did find some of their responses to Scorpious quite lazy and I believe they mentioned just being fine to sheep Angela's vote - if they reckon Angela is going to be perceived as solid town but has an incorrect read then it's not a terrible mafia approach.

[MalcolmTucker]

Been struggling for reads in general this game but I feel like STD's suspicion of Rathe felt fairly weak but sustained in a way that could maybe be mafia just trying to attach themselves onto someone. Maybe that's just because I largely TR Rathe though.

[MalcolmTucker]

Once again feels like we're really getting bogged down by small semantics over minor exchanges.

Does Pooky play like this all the time? They're on 80+ posts for the game so far and a solid bunch of them are basically all just jokes or posts saying nothing of note. There's a read list there earlier in the game but it didn't feel particularly developed as such and was just cobbled together a bit.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: scorpious

I'm getting town vibes from Scorpious a good bit, I don't think their posts are perfect but for the most part they seem genuine in a way I don't reckon is too mafia at the moment.

this feels like the exact sort of post someone makes with a green flip in mine.
this and the subsequent post do ping me a little

Reading back and to respond to this I don't agree. Presuming you meant "green flip in mind", Scorpious has been under some pressure but isn't particularly in danger of going out yet because none of the wagons have solidified at all as such and pressure on Scorpious has mostly been fleeting at best. I get what you mean re mafia perhaps wanting to clear a town player to make themselves look good but I think this is weak, there's no contradictions re my previous thoughts on Scorpious and we've aligned with each other in some of our pushes on Andre at times for example.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also if Scorpious is town and goes out then this feels like a potentially perfect/valid cover for mafia, and accusing those of defending Scorpious of trying to clear themselves as mafia almost feels like a bit of a guilty deflection if you know you're mafia and doing the opposite here.

I get you obviously don't put much stake on D1 turns (I get where you're coming from but disagree), but this doesn't excuse what feels like a lazy approach and more important an incorrect view that those taking the opposite perspective to you on the matter are somehow more suspicious than someone who's just going on the main bandwagon because it's what they always do.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm not completely sold on geraint yet given the difficulty in reading them but with this and the Kitty vote I'm happy to leave mine there for now.

VOTE: geraintm

[MalcolmTucker]

I

thoughts on

morning tweet/galron/nero cain

?

Morning Tweet's been pretty solid so far and looks like they're trying to drive the town forward at times but could also be good mafia play.

Galron's not said anything deliberately suspicious but feel like they're playing quite carefully and avoiding any major conflicts at the moment, could be coy mafia or just genuinely quite busy and struggling to contribute.

Null on Nero thus far. To be honest, as I've said not too far above, been struggling for reads a bit this game at times - feels like a lot of discussion has been quite meta with tit-for-tats about gameplay and how players are playing instead of proper content.

[MalcolmTucker]

I will say it's a lot stronger of a start than they had in our last game, that's for sure

(this is a joke and not what i want ppl to be taking out of that last post)

Although I do genuinely think Malcolm taking initiative rather than following another wagon at the beginning of this game is a good sign

you could argue they did it rather than follow because, say, maybe the main wagon at the time was on their buddy Kitty, but I'm not sure i lean that way. i think scum!Malcolm joins an existing wagon with existing town voices already helping rather than forge a brand new one on Andres, if their goal was to protect Kitty.

quoting this one in order to not quote the entirety of other one

i guess maybe i would more likely expect that sort of thing - find one thing, comment on it, build entire case out of it, barely mention anything else - to come from newish mafia rather than newish town

I don't think so. I'm thinking about "Where are scum and how do I even find them?" as newb town. I felt like i was faking it when i got a ping and tried to say something confident -- but it was my best

As newb scum I'm thinking about "How do I look natural?". And that was never building my own wagons from scratch, it was always trying to ask questions and look showy, but not actually try to get anything done. I'm not trying to affect the game

Course, this all hinges on whether or not my experience as a newer player (as well as some observations) lines up with how Malcolm plays. Which.. idk. But i don't have much more to work with

If we're referencing this here - then I'd be in general agreement with most of it but not everything, however I think it's all fairly solid logic.

Re my town play (I obviously know I'm town personally) I'd like to think I've been trying to advance the game with my fairly limited posts so far instead of either sheeping on the reads of others or just jumping on bandwagons. I've not done anything spectacular but have tried to avoid getting bogged down in some of the repetitive tit-for-tats the game has seen so far, a lot of which probably involve townies anyway.

While I've not got much experience as mafia on the site, I'm not sure I 100% agree with MT's read of how I'd approach the game as newbie scum - I reckon as a newbie I'd still be somewhat likely to pick out a player I think I can appear to legitimately be suspecting while perhaps knowing they're unlikely to be eliminated anyway, giving me decent cover while they remain in the game. Even when I'm a townie who's playing in a way that's genuine, I'm often wary of jumping on bandwagons unless I'm confident in them being genuine, partially because I don't want to look like opportunistic mafia when I know I'm not. But then I'd of course caveat all of the above with the fact I'm still somewhat newish to the site and would absolutely also be looking to adapt my play a fair bit as time goes on, especially if I know something might ping me for another player.

Bit of a ramble but that's my general thoughts on MT's read of me - two mins and I'll get back to you re Nero.

[MalcolmTucker]

lemme circle back to this

if you played with NM before and he did this as scum then why are you saying that its a poor idea?

Because we don't learn anything from it if he does this all the time, it's clearly not indicative of his alignment.

only played with them in one game, they did exactly this and turned out to be mafia.

if you've only played with him once and he did this as scum where are you getting the idea that its null? From others in this game?

@Angela, I replied to Nero re this at the time.

The general logic on NM was that they always quickhammer irrespective of their alignment.

My own thoughts were that just eliminating NM for the sake of it in turn one without probing other possible candidates was a poor approach and could be a decent mafia distraction which gains us little info if they are town.

The fact that they quickhammered as mafia didn't necessarily make them more/less likely to be mafia in this game. Frustratingly NM has given us basically nothing to go on so far anyway.

[MalcolmTucker]

In fact my reply is actually in the quoted post, the indication from others was that NM always quickhammers if he has the chance to. That's not wrong is it?

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it, the main thing it highlights is he was keen to discuss NM in contrast to someone like Scorpious who wanted to avoid the topic, but I can see both sides of the argument on that one so it doesn't influence a town/mafia read from them at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think it's possible Nero was maybe just slightly misunderstanding what I was saying initially, but it should have been clear I was predicating not just blindly voting for NM on the basis they apparently always quickhammer, something I believe was established earlier in the thread.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it, the main thing it highlights is he was keen to discuss NM in contrast to someone like Scorpious who wanted to avoid the topic, but I can see both sides of the argument on that one so it doesn't influence a town/mafia read from them at all.

hmhmhm

i feel like, there is a lot going on at that moment in the game and nero cain shortly thereafter votes for scorpious and so forth,

and the post being circled back to was from long ago, so if i knew i was town maybe ears would go up

Where are you sitting on Nero here yourself? Your thoughts on the slot seem very mixed, it's clear you don't entirely trust them here but also seem to TR them too as well.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it, the main thing it highlights is he was keen to discuss NM in contrast to someone like Scorpious who wanted to avoid the topic, but I can see both sides of the argument on that one so it doesn't influence a town/mafia read from them at all.

hmhmhm

i feel like, there is a lot going on at that moment in the game and nero cain shortly thereafter votes for scorpious and so forth,

and the post being circled back to was from long ago, so if i knew i was town maybe ears would go up

Where are you sitting on Nero here yourself? Your thoughts on the slot seem very mixed, it's clear you don't entirely trust them here but also seem to TR them too as well.

current conversation with you is more about

trying to see how you're looking at game

rather than about nero cain so much

your description probably functionally close enough to how i am viewing nero cain

As I've said above if I'm brutally honest my game has been fairly weak so far, been struggling for concrete reads.

As to why that is, partially it's because I'm often not great on D1 anyway with limited info, but also because I feel like the gamestate has regularly been stalled or interrupted by a lot of meta stuff and arguments not really related to finding scum. Plus we have some players with fairly unconventional styles who aren't doing much at all this turn to hunt mafia either because it's how they play or because they don't like D1.

[MalcolmTucker]

i'm not looking for reads as much as like, the a to b to c

like you thinking nero cain is circling back to that previous discussion with you because nero was misunderstanding what you were saying initially or because nero cain wanted to discuss not mafia

assumes nero cain is town, yes?

To a degree I suppose? I'm largely null on Nero at the moment but laws of probability would put a player you don't have a solid read on as more likely to be town than mafia given the numbers we work with in mafia games. I don't think they inherently wouldn't do it as mafia either though...it's just an incredibly NAI action for me in every respect. For mafia it could be an easy way to look busy or active without doing too much.

[MalcolmTucker]

what if partnered with one of the others being counted as pressuring you

right because then instead of it being

some

pressure but certainly not nearly enough

it would be effectively zero pressure and would definitely need to collectively pivot

and its probably worth noting that malcolmtucker then immediately moved vote when next arrived to thread

and also said was doing so because was now townreading andresvmb

rather than because no longer a viable wagon, so

I've not completely cleared Andre yet but their approach to the game has felt more helpful and they just inherently seem more townie than mafia despite early reservations, like they're trying to drive the game forward and get reads out of people in a way that can hopefully help spark some life into the game and mafia probably don't need to do that turn one unless they're under threat of going out. Mafia andre probably pushes Scorpious a bit more given that wagon was forming.

[MalcolmTucker]

I find the current vote tally on Scorpious quite interesting - as has been noted we're nearing elimination and he's generally had the biggest vote tally throughout the game but nobody actually appears to be pushing him or trying to solidify that block as such. Why not, if they want him out?

[MalcolmTucker]

I didn't realize that deadline was so close. I feel like there's alot of uselessness in this game. I expect it from NM and maybe Tucker.

Rathe who would you vote besides Gera?

I agree with this, but also...you're one of the Scorpious votes and that's a wagon that has been consistently ahead with the most votes for most of the game, if you're concerned about a lack of proper content or about the deadline nearing without any sort of consensus, why are you not pushing more actively for Scorpious to go? And if you don't actually believe Scorpious is mafia or worthy of elimination, why are you not looking for a proper alternative target instead?

[MalcolmTucker]

good rathe posts

why? didn't rathe just rehash what someone else has already said?

Do you still think Rathe is mafia, and if so what was your motivation for moving your vote onto Galron for now? Just simply to get someone out or what?

[MalcolmTucker]

I find the current vote tally on Scorpious quite interesting - as has been noted we're nearing elimination and he's generally had the biggest vote tally throughout the game but nobody actually appears to be pushing him or trying to solidify that block as such. Why not, if they want him out?

i mean, do you think it is alignment indicative that i haven’t pushed the scorpious wagon over?

I think you're at least consistently making posts and trying to move the game forward though, you're the most active player here and while that doesn't guarantee town, I feel like most of your posts are adding something to play. Whereas I feel like some other slots are dropping votes on players they potentially feel confident on without doing anything about it beyond that in a way that could easily be mafia coasting by.

[MalcolmTucker]

I find the current vote tally on Scorpious quite interesting - as has been noted we're nearing elimination and he's generally had the biggest vote tally throughout the game but nobody actually appears to be pushing him or trying to solidify that block as such. Why not, if they want him out?

i mean, do you think it is alignment indicative that i haven’t pushed the scorpious wagon over?

and if you think scorpious is town and the lack of a push is noteworthy then i think that’d be more likely due to mafia waiting to see if i’d push it over and potentially one sitting in the intermediate votes as i mentioned before

It could be either to be fair - just since I TR Scorpious, I find it weird they've had a reasonable number of votes for a lot of the game but nobody seems to be doing anything to move things beyond that. Either way I reckon there could be one scum who's been sitting there, irrespective of whatever alignment Scorpious comes back as. Will need to take a proper look as to who it could be.

[MalcolmTucker]

good rathe posts

why? didn't rathe just rehash what someone else has already said?

Do you still think Rathe is mafia, and if so what was your motivation for moving your vote onto Galron for now? Just simply to get someone out or what?

yes

what's the point of voting someone who no one else thinks is mafia

Why not take more time to actively push this forward though at a time when we haven't solidified behind any one player? Half your posts on Rathe seem to be "lol more people vote for Rathe please" without actually giving us much detailed evidence as to why Rathe might be mafia. I think their posts have been pretty solid and am strongly leaning town, have their contributions since your first vote not influenced your read at all? I'm just not buying this as a particularly genuine push from you for you.

[MalcolmTucker]

I find the current vote tally on Scorpious quite interesting - as has been noted we're nearing elimination and he's generally had the biggest vote tally throughout the game but nobody actually appears to be pushing him or trying to solidify that block as such. Why not, if they want him out?

i mean, do you think it is alignment indicative that i haven’t pushed the scorpious wagon over?

I think you're at least consistently making posts and trying to move the game forward though, you're the most active player here and while that doesn't guarantee town, I feel like most of your posts are adding something to play. Whereas I feel like some other slots are dropping votes on players they potentially feel confident on without doing anything about it beyond that in a way that could easily be mafia coasting by.

names?

On the Scorpious wagon, I feel like this could apply to Nero and Kitty. Doesn't mean they're definitely mafia, could be it's just their best read so far in a game that's been light on proper reads for the most part, but it feels like a wagon that simultaneously won't go away while also not going anywhere in particular.

[MalcolmTucker]

you know what, it is a contradiction. but once i sorta commit to a way of voting i kinda have to stick to it, otherwise to me that looks suspicious. kinda locked in for the rest of today, sorry.

it is significantly more suspicious to me that you'd lock into voting in a manner that is not particularly + town

while being aware that that is what you are doing

ah, its just me having a little bit of fun and trying to achieve my aim for Day 1, which is to get to Day 2 as quickly as possible. dont mind me, i promise i'll be better from tomorrow onwards

interesting to me that this is your aim when you've also said that you think it would be better if towns did not eliminate day one

which i assumed to involve using the entire day to figure things out and then using the information gained from nightkill to also inform decisions

(which information gain not worth loss of elimination, odd number of players and such)

and get to day two as quickly as possible has the exact opposite effect of limiting information as much as possible

but idk how alignment relevant this might be

oh, i am 100% down for no elimination, but whenever i say that i usually get shouted at and no one likes that so i tend to just think that instead of saying it nowadays.
I don't want to spend today trying to figure things out, i just want to skip to day 2 when we can all start playing properly. Dy 1 is just...tiresome. And i spent a month waiting for this game to fire and then have to wait another week until it gets going properly.

tbh, I'm getting a little tired of you getting a pass on this, Why don't

you

produce some content for D1 if it's so useless.

Are you just assuming because it's your "thing" we should all accept it and let you just live until D2 so you can fianlly be interested and engaged. You keep saying it too,like you're trying to renforce that you are just town that really hates D1. It's satrting to feel like a cop out.

And you should get crap for promoting a no lim with 2 1/2 days to go.Especially when no-lim lalmost ALWAYS helps Mafia..

I hate this post..

Yeah I really do not like this at all and it's making me feel more solid in my vote. For one, it just feels like kinda crappy play on everyone else - it's potentially just an easy way to secure your passage into D2 irrespective of your alignment while others have to work to remain in the game going forward.

A night elimination is only useful for me if the posts beforehand are actually there to give you info which can match the elimination to potential mafia. Without that, it really isn't too helpful. I dunno how Ger approaches games in general while taking the stance but they seem extra keen to emphasise here they won't do anything on D1 in a way that's meant to make us trust them in D2 if someone gets eliminated that would match with their approach.

I understand the general point that we're all shooting blind on D1, but that's part of the fun of playing mafia, and sometimes just blindly pushing a player in the hope you can get good info proves useful in the end.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: rathe

i don't really like the discussion surrounding not mafia as a policy. i think it could easily come from someone who knows NM is town and wants to see them go.

I think rathe's reasoning for voting kittytacky is pretty bad

i'm torn i think ger needs attention but i like my rathe vote, and rathe hoped onto ger so

should have probably said i was vla this weekend got really busy i can have some better thoughts on monday

which one is it or do u already know they are both town

Rathe I think you could be Town. I like this take.

this is a bad take

i feel like we're getting distracted in crap that doesn't matter and ignoring what does matter like voting rathe

because no one else is voting rathe

the issue with rathe is

kitty goes "i think this is TvT"

rathe goes "you KNOW it's TvT!" without citing any evidence or providing any reasoning for this other than kitty provided a TvT

then rathe loses interest and votes for ger for wagoning which seems opportunistic to me.

good rathe posts

why? didn't rathe just rehash what someone else has already said?

STD, I just don't believe this is particularly genuine suspicion looking bad. It feels like you've honed in on Rathe but the reasoning is pretty weak. Out of interest, where were they just repeating what others have said? And why are they especially deserving of suspicion for doing so when Pooky has pretty much openly said they will sheep Angela no matter what happens?

[MalcolmTucker]

you know what, it is a contradiction. but once i sorta commit to a way of voting i kinda have to stick to it, otherwise to me that looks suspicious. kinda locked in for the rest of today, sorry.

it is significantly more suspicious to me that you'd lock into voting in a manner that is not particularly + town

while being aware that that is what you are doing

ah, its just me having a little bit of fun and trying to achieve my aim for Day 1, which is to get to Day 2 as quickly as possible. dont mind me, i promise i'll be better from tomorrow onwards

interesting to me that this is your aim when you've also said that you think it would be better if towns did not eliminate day one

which i assumed to involve using the entire day to figure things out and then using the information gained from nightkill to also inform decisions

(which information gain not worth loss of elimination, odd number of players and such)

and get to day two as quickly as possible has the exact opposite effect of limiting information as much as possible

but idk how alignment relevant this might be

oh, i am 100% down for no elimination, but whenever i say that i usually get shouted at and no one likes that so i tend to just think that instead of saying it nowadays.

I don't want to spend today trying to figure things out, i just want to skip to day 2 when we can all start playing properly.

Dy 1 is just...tiresome. And i spent a month waiting for this game to fire and then have to wait another week until it gets going properly.

Again on this...why do you deserve a pass on D1 when it's clear someone else will likely be eliminated? If we were all down with your approach, then fine, I'd maybe get the logic, but it's fairly evident most of us don't agree with it and want to eliminate someone, because those votes can give us info even if we get the elimination wrong. I get D1 involves a lot of firing into the dark, but it's not as if D2 automatically provides us with all the answers we need to solve the game.

But to engage, out of interest, to try a different approach here...what reads would you have on D2 depending on which players are eliminated?

For example, if I'm killed overnight, how would that influence your D2 reads? How about the same with Scorpious, or with Angela? That appears to evidently be how you play the game here, so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on who you'd suspect depending on what happens overnight.

[MalcolmTucker]

have you ever played with me before this is what i do

This isn't answering my question though, I don't think your read of Rathe is particularly strong and I'm getting increasingly annoyed by people (not that you've been the main culprit so far) just defaulting to meta here for either a lack of reads or to justify a certain approach to the game that isn't helping at all. My general view is you have a weak case on Rathe here...that can come from either town or mafia but in a game where reads have been thin on the ground it's interesting nonetheless. Like...to put it a different way, why should your read of Rathe lead me to a conclusion you're more townie than mafia?

[MalcolmTucker]

I find the current vote tally on Scorpious quite interesting - as has been noted we're nearing elimination and he's generally had the biggest vote tally throughout the game but nobody actually appears to be pushing him or trying to solidify that block as such. Why not, if they want him out?

i mean, do you think it is alignment indicative that i haven’t pushed the scorpious wagon over?

and if you think scorpious is town and the lack of a push is noteworthy then i think that’d be more likely due to mafia waiting to see if i’d push it over and potentially one sitting in the intermediate votes as i mentioned before

It could be either to be fair - just since I TR Scorpious, I find it weird they've had a reasonable number of votes for a lot of the game but nobody seems to be doing anything to move things beyond that. Either way I reckon there could be one scum who's been sitting there, irrespective of whatever alignment Scorpious comes back as. Will need to take a proper look as to who it could be.

I find the current vote tally on Scorpious quite interesting - as has been noted we're nearing elimination and he's generally had the biggest vote tally throughout the game but nobody actually appears to be pushing him or trying to solidify that block as such. Why not, if they want him out?

i mean, do you think it is alignment indicative that i haven’t pushed the scorpious wagon over?

I think you're at least consistently making posts and trying to move the game forward though, you're the most active player here and while that doesn't guarantee town, I feel like most of your posts are adding something to play. Whereas I feel like some other slots are dropping votes on players they potentially feel confident on without doing anything about it beyond that in a way that could easily be mafia coasting by.

names?

On the Scorpious wagon, I feel like this could apply to Nero and Kitty. Doesn't mean they're definitely mafia, could be it's just their best read so far in a game that's been light on proper reads for the most part, but it feels like a wagon that simultaneously won't go away while also not going anywhere in particular.

Did you come up with Nero and Kitty after taking a proper look as to who could be mafia easily coasting by?

A little bit yes - I've been fairly null on both players for now but I'm looking at this from a POV where I mostly TR Scorpious here. I think at least one mafia has an interest in sitting on the potential wagon if that is the case. And if Scorp is mafia, there's potential reasons for someone like Nero to coast on that wagon to create some distance without actually making a major push for elimination at all, even if that's less likely.

Ger could be doing the same but is giving us incredibly little to work with.

[MalcolmTucker]

have you ever played with me before this is what i do

This isn't answering my question though, I don't think your read of Rathe is particularly strong and I'm getting increasingly annoyed by people (not that you've been the main culprit so far) just defaulting to meta here for either a lack of reads or to justify a certain approach to the game that isn't helping at all. My general view is you have a weak case on Rathe here...that can come from either town or mafia but in a game where reads have been thin on the ground it's interesting nonetheless. Like...to put it a different way, why should your read of Rathe lead me to a conclusion you're more townie than mafia?

i think having a case on rathe is a lot different than not mafia hammering at e-1 and ger not playing d1

just because you tr rathe and think it's weak doesn't mean i'm not "playing the game"

Oh I don't think you're not playing or anything, you're at least engaging and I could absolutely end up being wrong in the end here - I just think it's interesting that you defaulted to "that's how I play" when I questioned you above. I think that's an incredibly weak response because you're obviously experienced and could comfortably play this way as either town or mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

i answered your question with another answer too, did you see that

You did, I don't think it really makes your read on Rathe look any stronger to be honest. It just comes across as a particularly weak read and I find it interesting you've both stuck to it without keeping your vote there.

[MalcolmTucker]

who's interested in joining the rathe wagon

why would i keep my vote there

Does the fact nobody is interested in the wagon not maybe indicate to you the case for them is quite weak at the moment? What did you do to actually convince anyone to join it beyond a couple of brief posts with fairly weak evidence?

[MalcolmTucker]

It's two players who are doing NAI things per meta.

it rlly do be

But since everyone in the game has interacted in some capacity with the players, they're now even better eliminations than they were at the start of the day

The more I play on the site the more I'm disliking having to rely on how someone approaches the game re meta incredibly annoying, would rather just play the game normally. I'd happily get rid of Ger considering their stance seems to be they automatically get to go to day two by virtue of doing nothing.

[MalcolmTucker]

i said in 722

recent posts from malcolmtucker i think r good i would take him out of the vote for group

I don't think they are. I especially don't like that he's blatantly ignoring that I put a case down on Scorp and he's lying that I'm coasting this game. 869 might be an ok post but Gera is just p scummy. And everything just rings hollow when he's sitting there and being shit with his vote.

He's town reading Scorp but isn't even trying to not let Scorp get voted out.

This doesn't make sense? I've said Scorpious is town and I don't think they should be voted out, and that scum are almost certainly in there somewhere.

Four posts on Scorpious, one of which accuses him of not reading the game, is hardly great stuff.

[MalcolmTucker]

you know what, it is a contradiction. but once i sorta commit to a way of voting i kinda have to stick to it, otherwise to me that looks suspicious. kinda locked in for the rest of today, sorry.

it is significantly more suspicious to me that you'd lock into voting in a manner that is not particularly + town

while being aware that that is what you are doing

ah, its just me having a little bit of fun and trying to achieve my aim for Day 1, which is to get to Day 2 as quickly as possible. dont mind me, i promise i'll be better from tomorrow onwards

interesting to me that this is your aim when you've also said that you think it would be better if towns did not eliminate day one

which i assumed to involve using the entire day to figure things out and then using the information gained from nightkill to also inform decisions

(which information gain not worth loss of elimination, odd number of players and such)

and get to day two as quickly as possible has the exact opposite effect of limiting information as much as possible

but idk how alignment relevant this might be

oh, i am 100% down for no elimination, but whenever i say that i usually get shouted at and no one likes that so i tend to just think that instead of saying it nowadays.

I don't want to spend today trying to figure things out, i just want to skip to day 2 when we can all start playing properly.

Dy 1 is just...tiresome. And i spent a month waiting for this game to fire and then have to wait another week until it gets going properly.

Again on this...why do you deserve a pass on D1 when it's clear someone else will likely be eliminated? If we were all down with your approach, then fine, I'd maybe get the logic, but it's fairly evident most of us don't agree with it and want to eliminate someone, because those votes can give us info even if we get the elimination wrong. I get D1 involves a lot of firing into the dark, but it's not as if D2 automatically provides us with all the answers we need to solve the game.

But to engage, out of interest, to try a different approach here...what reads would you have on D2 depending on which players are eliminated?

For example, if I'm killed overnight, how would that influence your D2 reads? How about the same with Scorpious, or with Angela? That appears to evidently be how you play the game here, so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on who you'd suspect depending on what happens overnight.

Geraint, if you're around - would be interested in how you respond to this. If D1 isn't valuable, how would the night kill influence your D2 reads since you clearly put a lot of stock in that?

[MalcolmTucker]

It's two players who are doing NAI things per meta.

it rlly do be

But since everyone in the game has interacted in some capacity with the players, they're now even better eliminations than they were at the start of the day

The more I play on the site the more I'm disliking having to rely on how someone approaches the game re meta incredibly annoying, would rather just play the game normally. I'd happily get rid of Ger considering their stance seems to be they automatically get to go to day two by virtue of doing nothing.

sure i can agree that i often am frustrated by the way others play the game,

but on the individual game level it doesn't make the player in question a mafia

like maybe there are solutions that we could employ to make it easier to sort them, if you have any suggestions fire away,

but geraintm isn't mafia in every game, right?

No, but their approach here inherently stops us from finding out either way D1. This is inherently anti-town. How would anything ever get done if we all played this way?

Their posts have been contradictory anyway at times which makes things look worse, like there appears to be a deeper motivation there beyond saying nothing.

[MalcolmTucker]

Four posts on Scorpious, one of which accuses him of not reading the game, is hardly great stuff.

wait but,

do you think scorpious was closely reading the game there?

My general view on Scorpious is he's been keeping up to date with things yeah, even if I've disagreed with certain views or reads a bit at times.

[MalcolmTucker]

No, but their approach here inherently stops us from finding out either way D1. This is inherently anti-town. How would anything ever get done if we all played this way?

Their posts have been contradictory anyway at times which makes things look worse, like there appears to be a deeper motivation there beyond saying nothing.

i am not disagreeing with the complaints about the approach, i have expressed many myself

i do not think that makes geraintm the best elimination today; there are probably at least three who i'd prefer to eliminate on likelihood of being mafia and i'd prefer not mafia as the default elimination at this point

I wouldn't hate an NM elimination given they are clearly doing nothing but I don't see why Ger is any worse.

[MalcolmTucker]

I wouldn't hate an NM elimination given they are clearly doing nothing but I don't see why Ger is any worse.

geraintm more likely to do something in the future

and!

probably gain more from not mafia elimination information wise

What info specifically? Where do you think we go from an NM elim out of interest?

[MalcolmTucker]

It's two players who are doing NAI things per meta.

it rlly do be

But since everyone in the game has interacted in some capacity with the players, they're now even better eliminations than they were at the start of the day

The more I play on the site the more I'm disliking having to rely on how someone approaches the game re meta incredibly annoying, would rather just play the game normally. I'd happily get rid of Ger considering their stance seems to be they automatically get to go to day two by virtue of doing nothing.

While I agree with this statement, I find the lack of vote disturbing.

Do you think Gera is scum,or are you looking to lim out of annoyance?

I've voted Ger. Outlined that I think they could be mafia beyond the annoyance of how they're approaching the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

that last exchange with angela was pretty head scratching scorpius do u have a lag when posting

angela was answering ur questions but u kept asking

Kinda feel like this is another case of players just firing 4/5 posts off at each other at a time and then missing the important ones. Which we've all sometimes been guilty of.

[MalcolmTucker]

I am terrible with reads but I am fairly confident both Andre/Scorpious are townie at this point. I just don't think either of you reasonably approach the game this way as mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

Lol, I’m scum again because you decided to parrot Angela?

She said everything you just posted..

Is Andre really parroting here though? I've been really against their reads at times but if nothing else they have consistently had reads of their own. Simply happening to agree with Angela doesn't mean they're parroting them.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think mafia Andre takes a more measured approach here and doesn't just jump back onto Scorpious. You've consistently been under a mild level of pressure Scorp, don't think they ever needed to come off you if they were worried about how the vote would be perceived.

[MalcolmTucker]

I still don't really think there's a coherent case against Scorpious here though, and I'm just really interested in how there have been a fair few votes there but it doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Is it simply that others don't agree or more going on?

[MalcolmTucker]

What does the mailman do? Never heard of that role.

[MalcolmTucker]

Like I wouldn’t stop voting you just so I can preserve a mailman. There’s probably multiple elements of the game I’m missing obviously with incomplete information, but I’m not all of a sudden going to start thinking oh a mailman? That’s such an important role, I need to immediately unvote.

Having said that, what it does do is confirm at night that you’re away from where the NK takes place (unless you can multi-task), which I suppose on balance is a positive.

Can someone chime in here?

Understand the role can go either way, but we should probably not be eliminating someone claiming town PR D1 here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Scorpious could be lying but doesn't seem a sensible call to me.

[MalcolmTucker]

well, Not Mafia certainly makes the game different. But i am 100% sure we shall be able to work out their alignment sooner rather than later so i am not going to worry about them.

VOTE: nero cain

Can you add some words to that vote? It doesn't look like an RVS vote.

Ive been inactively lurking. I've been playing with Gerry since his return to the site 2 - 2 1/2 years ago. His RVS vote is nearly always the nth player after his first post (he uses a die). This game he made a vote and then another blind vote without giving any indication why he made that second vote. His initial post usually consists of a number like 8, which means he's going to vote the 8th person after he posts. He didn't do that this game. He voted someone and then blindly voted another. I haven't caught up with his recent stuff so I don't know. The please put some words to that blind vote was an attempt to understand why he voted the way he did.

Two posts actually. Obviously forgot about 290.

In full agreement with you here as well. Focus is certainly a stretch.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcom, why are you town reading me?

I don't know if I am overall but I think your take on Ger is sensible.

[MalcolmTucker]

Scorpious could be lying but doesn't seem a sensible call to me.

if scorpious was a mafia!mailman would it seem like a sensible call to you?

Well if Scorpious was mafia than yes obviously, what's the question here?

[MalcolmTucker]

Posts 1106 and 1115 don't make me want to move my geraint vote at all.

They claim they need to wait until D2 to determine how the wagons forming influence their play but why? There's plenty of info to go on now in regards to how players are voting and approaching the game. If you're someone who thrives on D2, you should surely be thinking ahead as to how certain eliminations would influence your mindset. Doing so D1 could either throw mafia offguard potentially or at least give us an insight into where someone would stand if they were mafia themselves.

Geraint said they'd read back the past 10 pages or so...I just don't really buy we have a player here who's simultaneously reading through the game properly but doesn't have any thoughts as to where we'll be on D2.

Post 1115 also feels like it could be an easy misdirect...players can adapt their style all the time, especially if they are fairly experienced and know they have a certain tell. And it's probably easier to do so if you don't really contribute D1 and then find yourself under less pressure on D2 because you're deliberately giving people little to go on.

[MalcolmTucker]

honestly, don't know. i normally sit there day 2 and look at the wagons that formed and who was on which ones. i normally have some idea that some wagons are obviously on town players, and anyone joining them for crappy reasoning get naughty points. that combined with whatever info players bring to the table day 2 are what i go on.
im not going to waste the time doing that now though

you realize you can do this ,in real time, on D1.. right?

This post almost gives me the impression you're setting the table to not do much in D2 either..

You are either scum or a Town Pr looking to not get nk'd. I can't decide right now.

Yeah I would at least be willing to accept this if we were in a larger game but 13-player setup means we have, what, max five turns or so? If you're mafia Geraint right now, you can lie low, claim this is your meta approach, and then hope in D2 someone else comes under heavy pressure and then coast into D3 while giving the town barely any evidence to use against you going forward. Fundamentally I just really dislike the idea we should be expected to do all the work so they can finally start playing on D2.

[MalcolmTucker]

On other matters - I think Pooky's posts on Nero are quite solid, but I also reckon mafia Nero maybe doesn't accept Scorpious' claim here so easily maybe? Could be one for mafia to push and seed some doubt.

[MalcolmTucker]

@malcolm - i like that you give me credit for being experienced (I dont feel that at all, i play one game at a time and regularly have to go to the wiki to look up what some roles are as i've never seen them before) a good enough player to be able to change my play style, but i am really not. i generally suck as town,

there is a reason i don't get NKed very often by scum, they are happy to have me around for a catastrophic ending

On this we are at least very similar...

[MalcolmTucker]

Fundamentally I just really dislike the idea we should be expected to do all the work so they can finally start playing on D2.

fundamentally, i think no one should be doing any work on Day 1....

Okay but how do we get any info on D2? Someone, somewhere needs to start a wagon at some point in the game. That takes work and effort. If we just do literally nothing, mafia get a free kill that just tells us nothing about the gamestate or why they did what they did.

Obviously D1 requires more firing into the dark but so does D2 - it's not as if one night kill suddenly allows us to all be uber-informed about what is happening. A lot of mafia is just flinging shit at the wall and seeing what sticks and what info that then gives you. And I don't claim to be an expert or even that experienced, but everyone else clearly sees some value in D1 to an extent.

But again I can feel us getting dragged onto meta stuff here away from content of the actual game, which just naturally pings me a bit - it's in the interests of mafia when playing to ensure there's as little content as possible which makes them look like they are mafia. Discussions about the mechanics of the game allow them to post without actually saying anything which makes them look bad.

[MalcolmTucker]

honestly, don't know. i normally sit there day 2 and look at the wagons that formed and who was on which ones. i normally have some idea that some wagons are obviously on town players, and anyone joining them for crappy reasoning get naughty points. that combined with whatever info players bring to the table day 2 are what i go on.
im not going to waste the time doing that now though

you realize you can do this ,in real time, on D1.. right?

This post almost gives me the impression you're setting the table to not do much in D2 either..

You are either scum or a Town Pr looking to not get nk'd. I can't decide right now.

Yeah I would at least be willing to accept this if we were in a larger game but 13-player setup means we have, what, max five turns or so? If you're mafia Geraint right now, you can lie low, claim this is your meta approach, and then hope in D2 someone else comes under heavy pressure and then coast into D3 while giving the town barely any evidence to use against you going forward. Fundamentally I just really dislike the idea we should be expected to do all the work so they can finally start playing on D2.

still i fundamentally agree and have tried to engage geraintm with the game to mostly no avail

(though i do think it is kinda absurd that when geraintm did say a few things that scorpious (i think) then said ‘ah i find it scummy that you want to try now!’ or something like that like ….)

still doesn’t make geraintm a particularly likely mafia

like sure it would be quite easy for geraintm to play this way as mafia, but how exactly does that make geraintm the very most likely mafia? how exactly does that make geraintm more likely mafia than other players playing similarly?

do you disagree with the information i think we would gain from not mafia elimination as opposed to geraintm?

also like if scorpious had said yes when i asked if scorpious was a mason i would have assumed you were the other mason because something does not feel right here

If we need an elimination and NM is the favoured candidate I'm not particularly opposed, I'm just really increasingly getting mafia vibes from ger's approach here. I think the constant reminders they don't do much on D1 aren't helping and it's such an easy way for them to hide as mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm still unsure on geraint but I think them being unwilling to get on the Scorpious bandwagon given they've been a main candidate so far is quite townie.

I'm happy to move my vote from there if nobody else fancies it, and fine to get on an STD bandwagon because I don't think they've looked townie so far and their suspicions of Rathe feel very manufactured.

VOTE: SaveTheDragons

Busy day ahead so likely won't be around till D2.

[MalcolmTucker]

Granted we were struggling towards the end but yeah, NM wasn't a great elimination. Bound to be one or two mafia on there, could be a good idea to vote within that unless another prime candidate comes up.

[MalcolmTucker]

Besides I have reason to suspect this setup has a scum mailman.

Trust me on this.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Why the secrecy or implication you have inside info here? Surely better to just tell us outright.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm happy to evaluate Scorpious again this turn if need be having TR'd them, but I don't think their hammer is particularly weird or suspect - we were nearing the end of D1 and their vote had to go somewhere. The only possible alternative wagon by then appeared to be STD and that wasn't going anywhere. Fairly normal vote. I suppose if you're being picky Scorp's reluctance to talk about NM then dropping the hammer could be a bit weird...but again, it was getting pretty late-on in the day.

[MalcolmTucker]

Granted we were struggling towards the end but yeah, NM wasn't a great elimination. Bound to be one or two mafia on there, could be a good idea to vote within that unless another prime candidate comes up.

why would it be

a good idea

to vote within the not mafia wagon?

Because NM is town and mafia would have known this. Given NM didn't do much it ends up being a fairly easy elimination for mafia insofar as they can just claim they had no better option and they thought NM was useless anyway. Plenty of plausible deniability there. Would you not expect at least one or two mafia to be on that wagon?

[MalcolmTucker]

Granted we were struggling towards the end but yeah, NM wasn't a great elimination. Bound to be one or two mafia on there, could be a good idea to vote within that unless another prime candidate comes up.

why would it be

a good idea

to vote within the not mafia wagon?

like do you think,

save the dragons

is a mafia?

and if not, why do you think, the wagon in general would be likely to contain mafia?

other than scorpious?

7 people voted on a wagon for a townie who had, technically speaking, not done anything to make them look like mafia and who gave them easy plausible deniability. Do you think it's likely no mafia went onto it at all? That would genuinely be astonishing and much worthier of pursuit if so. You surely agree mafia were on the wagon given you're voting for Scorpious here?

[MalcolmTucker]

Why is Scorpious fundamentally more likely to be mafia now than they were before the end of D1? They dropped the hammer once it was clear the voting wasn't going elsewhere and plenty of others thought NM was a reasonable choice given it got pushed through in the end. Not that many of you seemed to confidently think NM was absolutely mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

What I could buy here would be that Scorpious only dropped the hammer instead of voting earlier because they'd have been seen as too keen to get rid of someone else and clear themselves, but I don't think their end of D1 approach was particularly bad. If faced with confirming a hammer near the end of a turn when no alternative was being put forward, how many would have acted differently?

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm happy to evaluate Scorpious again this turn if need be having TR'd them, but I don't think their hammer is particularly weird or suspect - we were nearing the end of D1 and their vote had to go somewhere. The only possible alternative wagon by then appeared to be STD and that wasn't going anywhere. Fairly normal vote. I suppose if you're being picky Scorp's reluctance to talk about NM then dropping the hammer could be a bit weird...but again, it was getting pretty late-on in the day.

wait what

the hammer happening when discussion still happening and such

with hours on the deadline, is in fact suspect

if you want to say scorpious did so because i was suggesting scorpious as an alternative and scorpious would know that scorpious is town, sure whatever

even if you want to say scorpious hammered because not mafia claimed vanilla town and scorpious wanted to have vanilla town killed instead of potentially mailman scorpious, sure whatever

but, uh, yeah

Hours on the deadline is not a long time. It was the weekend, I imagine plenty of us were busy, I wasn't going to be back to change my own vote eg and had committed by then. Who else would have gone as an alternative? If Scorpious has not particularly suspected STD, would that be a sensible push? And if you think it would've been wiser to eliminate STD instead of NM, why are you not pushing them at the moment?

[MalcolmTucker]

Why is Scorpious fundamentally more likely to be mafia now than they were before the end of D1? They dropped the hammer once it was clear the voting wasn't going elsewhere and plenty of others thought NM was a reasonable choice given it got pushed through in the end. Not that many of you seemed to confidently think NM was absolutely mafia.

they aren't really, though waiting on someone to tell us about mail stuff i guess? with regards to that

but like i said should have voted them at end of yesterday but thought process regarding was terrible

and now have more information from flips that points even more to scorpious, so

How does the overnight info point more to Scorpious? I'm not sure it does.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: angela

sigh going to be kinda sad if andresvmb v. scorpious was mafia/mafia

and the about face with regards to eachother at one point

doesn't make it completely improbable

anyway scorpious is like 99% lying here

and probably killed pooky partly to push mafia ascetic narrative or whatever

i'm towntowntown

That would be both really silly and risky from them since it could've resulted in an elimination, very unlikely, and the suggestion here seems a bit strange. Do you really believe this at all?

[MalcolmTucker]

Angela, again, you voted NM yourself, despite wanting Scorpious out. Similarly Scorpious eliminated MM once it was clear we had no alternative, towards the end of the turn. What's the major difference here?

[MalcolmTucker]

Angela, again, you voted NM yourself, despite wanting Scorpious out. Similarly Scorpious eliminated MM once it was clear we had no alternative, towards the end of the turn. What's the major difference here?

[MalcolmTucker]

sorry, double post unintentional

[MalcolmTucker]

That would be both really silly and risky from them since it could've resulted in an elimination, very unlikely, and the suggestion here seems a bit strange. Do you really believe this at all?

i believe it is possible

and i believe that i would be sad if it were the case, yes

I really don't see how it's possible to be honest. Why would they go all out at each other and risk one of them being eliminated? All it takes is a RP to catch the other and it's potentially a worthless sacrifice. Your play was much more logic-driven than this on D1.

[MalcolmTucker]

That would be both really silly and risky from them since it could've resulted in an elimination, very unlikely, and the suggestion here seems a bit strange. Do you really believe this at all?

i believe it is possible

and i believe that i would be sad if it were the case, yes

I really don't see how it's possible to be honest. Why would they go all out at each other and risk one of them being eliminated? All it takes is a RP to catch the other and it's potentially a worthless sacrifice. Your play was much more logic-driven than this on D1.

i've seen mafia do this, like my logic here isn't that this is the case, it's that it is possibly the case, which is generally what my play always is, not really sure what difference you're seeing there

I mean it can happen, it just doesn't feel like the most likely thing to happen, and your logic seems to be that they both aren't in full agreement with you right now which strikes me as odd given, again, your D1 play was less conspiratorial and more logic-driven for me.

[MalcolmTucker]

Angela, again, you voted NM yourself, despite wanting Scorpious out. Similarly Scorpious eliminated MM once it was clear we had no alternative, towards the end of the turn. What's the major difference here?

to be cheeky, the major difference is that i am town

Yeah but this isn't a good defence when I TR Scorpious. Is your case here based on an actual argument or just vibes and instinct? Feels like it's changing by the post.

[MalcolmTucker]

i feel like it's fairly clear angela/scorp/andres are town at this point

i think scum is in like, Pooky/Nero/Galron

I don't think Kitty is scum as much and Rathe pretty much said what i was thinking with regards to scum being more on the quiet side and Scorp/Angela/andres all likely being town

At worst there's one scum in that group but I wouldn't know which rn

i dont believe tweetie actually srs me so this post is quite ??? to me

galron was mostly inactive for the entire game that tweetie modded so i dont see how she scumreads him for not being around here.

also like did i miss it or did our favorite cow walk in and do anything ai cuz why did tweet just randomly drop him from her scum list?

feeling kind of miffed tbh that I wrote all these wild accusations for Tweetie and she did not address them at all >.>

I'm actually fine with a tweetie wagon rn cuz she ignored me lol

tweetie how come you didnt respond to anything I said about you >.>

I am fine with STD - Tweet - NM atp

If we're going to look at this from the other vantage point of who kills Pooky - I don't think Andante is a terrible candidate albeit appreciate they're just joining the game.

Pooky had a passing suspicion of the slot and was noticing some things they didn't like about their play. Nothing concrete as to make it obvious, given Pooky's an experienced player anyway, but enough that I think mafia might want to feel comfortable and get rid.

I also note that Pooky included STD in their possible mafia pool list before being eliminated. Andante joins and the first joke/passing vote on them comes from...STD. Possible connection there?

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm is Town. One of angela/Kitty/Save The Dragons can die today as far as I’m concerned so far.

@Nero Cain, Rathe I want to see some comments from you I’m interested in your perspectives.

wait

why is malcolmtucker town?

scorpious is a mafia and lying

why would a team of me/kittytacky/x push this?

this entire thing continues to be nonsensical

I’m not shutting my brain down and arguing that there’s no chance in hell that Scorpious isn’t Scum. It’s possible. Their focus has been strange, and Pooky and I rightly bashed it (as did you). But your insistence that they’re lying without considering that perhaps they’re being set up seems weird to me.

Just my gut is telling me that mailman is a bad fake claim. It is. You could argue it’s a quirky fake claim that buys you time if implemented properly. But long-term, it’s difficult to maintain as Scum because it’s confirmable. What I assumed would happen if Scorpious was Scum is that they would be plenty able to send a message, and that this would let them pocket players. I certainly didn’t immediately assume they would be straight up lying (like I said, extremely hard to maintain long-term). So yeah, I really didn’t expect that they would claim to have sent a message, and then that the message would not have arrived at their destination. Because it sets up a 1v1 that is very much tilted against them. It’s very easy to assume that well, they lied to stay alive, they’re lying about their message, so they need to die.

I low-key also suspect that if they wanted to establish a 1v1, they would have picked me funny enough. Or a player that they could have more easily defeated in a 1v1. As a choice angela, based on how D1, you feel like a terrible choice.

Agreed, this is a good post, says it better than I could.

[MalcolmTucker]

I also note that Pooky included STD in their possible mafia pool list before being eliminated. Andante joins and the first joke/passing vote on them comes from...STD. Possible connection there?

how so

Potentially throw a light bit of suspicion on a teammate to create a bit of distance even though it might not stick. Had you been particularly suspicious of MT yesterday? Apologies if so and I've missed this.

[MalcolmTucker]

D1 angela was pretty town tho

day two angela is also

i am town
kittytacky is town

go from there

Why are you so certain on Kitty as town?

[MalcolmTucker]

but if pooky wanted nm me dragons.. no way he was killed for reads.. fearkill though?? maybe..

I think anyone could have gone Pooky since they're obviously an experienced player, just trying to find especially who'd have motive.

[MalcolmTucker]

I also note that Pooky included STD in their possible mafia pool list before being eliminated. Andante joins and the first joke/passing vote on them comes from...STD. Possible connection there?

how so

Potentially throw a light bit of suspicion on a teammate to create a bit of distance even though it might not stick. Had you been particularly suspicious of MT yesterday? Apologies if so and I've missed this.

Although,if you’re deadset on pooky killed for reads… id be sus of you killing pooky for this exact reason… pooky SRs 3 town… you kill there, convince town to mislim in his SRs…

I'm on deadset on it, just exploring possibilities, although I see your logic.

From the other POV, Pooky strongly TR'd Angela to the point where they wanted to sheep them. Could also be someone who Pooky TR'd who got rid of them thinking they wouldn't be linked to it at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm *not deadset, that should say.

[MalcolmTucker]

You know why this is important right? The options for executions yesterday if we’re being honest for a second were {geraintm, Scorpious, Save The Dragons, Not_Mafia}. Not_Mafia was ultimately executed and flipped Town, and there was some visible resistance to executing Save The Dragons. Scorpious is the easiest choice for mis-execution amongst the players that gathered multiple votes yesterday, if they’re actually Town.

I think angela’s conviction that Kitty is Town is also just completely bizarre. Maybe you could say that you think Kitty is Lean Town or something an explain why. But can anyone tell me why there’s so much conviction behind that read?

I don’t get that at all. I certainly don’t agree with it.

As has been said, this also doesn't chime with Angela in yesterday's turn who seemed very open-minded.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm not really understanding the d1 angela is different from d2 angela.

I don't see why are the suddenly so filled with conviction re Scorpious mafia and Kitty town. Feels new and unnatural.

[MalcolmTucker]

FYI,

still waiting on Gera to bring his D2 fire as we were all promised..

Yes I await with excitement.

[MalcolmTucker]

also the pooky kill seems like a scared kill not strategic

Could it not be both? If a mafia player is worried about Pooky sussing them then that can also be strategic in itself.

[MalcolmTucker]

yes maybe scorpius n malcolmtucker but i think more strategy would be to kill angela over pooky

Although if Scorpious is indeed town and Angela is too, then mafia may be perfectly happy to go for someone else to ensure the game is being misread. Think it's quite possible Pooky may have had a decent read or two in there.

[MalcolmTucker]

i dont think ur lying scorpius so its most likely u were blocked

I know I'm not,but thank you.
The more i think about htis the more I am feeling framed. Pooky expressed major doubts on me,and my message allegedly never made it through.

Like, IDK how Kitty and Angela could be so bent on me right now and not even give the Gera slot a second look. We let them live based on their insiatance of content on D2.. We're still waiting.. Thats not suspicious in itself, I get it people have lives, but it was n't even mentioned by either of them..

Kitty came in full send and our ever analytical Angela is just like "yeah, I trust that"

Feels real dirty to me..

To be fair we are so early in D2 that I'm not seeing it as a major problem yet, I didn't mention the slot either till you brought it up because I think it's fair to give people a pass on the first day again if they aren't around. Very much expect ger to have thoughts once they are caught up though otherwise my vote will be going right there.

[MalcolmTucker]

mafia probably has to be in kitty geraintm save the dragons andante n nero

Nero was started to interest me a bit towards the end of D1 but their play on turn two has seemed townie so far, they certainly haven't been aligning with the Kitty/Angela view and if Scorpious is town, I'm not sure that's a wise mafia approach other than due to deliberate distancing.

Again from the POV of Scorpious being town, I think it's likely one of Kitty/Angela is mafia. Would have been more townie on Angela D1, but could be Angela going all-out to bring down Scorpious with the hope we then go for a town Kitty on D3 because others have TR'd Angela.

[MalcolmTucker]

? don’t understand issue with wagon

scorpious next best to me

like how is save the dragons wagon better exactly?

In light of Angela saying Scorpious hammered at the wrong time, this just feels like a really weird post by comparison.

There was a bit of discussion going on but Angela was obviously not keen on an STD wagon and a Scorpious vote was not going to happen just hours before we reached the deadline, both because some of us were busy and wouldn't be back by then, but also because the majority just didn't think it was a particularly good wagon to go for or stick with.

Angela's argument is we needed to spend more time discussing and the elimination was abrupt but that doesn't chime with this post at all, where they seem settled on the wagon. If I was reluctant to hammer in Scorpious' position, and wanted to gauge the thoughts of an active townie, this would seem like a good consensus to go for it.

What else were we particularly missing re discussion at this point? No viable wagon was being proposed other than NM, even if it was kinda rubbish.

[MalcolmTucker]

Kitty as town seems reasonable, kinda sussed they were hinting at having a role at the start of D2 but didn't want to push it.

In light of that while I've TR'd them all game Scorpious definitely looks a lot more mafia here. Two similarish town roles like this seem unlikely. But I'd rather wait for a bit and see what other developments there are before immediately voting out. If Scorpious comes back town Angela should be gone D3.

[MalcolmTucker]

The Friendly Neighbor message should be a confirmation that Kitty is Town and I suggest you ask the Mod angela. There should be no ambiguity there.

unable to gain any formatting clarity regarding friendly neighbour message vs mailman message

so i either received a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky

or a mailman message made to look like a friendly neighbour message

as far as i can tell

No this isn’t possible. Like there really isn’t any room for ambiguity here and this is nonsensical.

The message you receive when you’re the recipient of a message from a Friendly Neighbor comes from the Moderator, and it confirms Kitty as Town. If the moderator simply passed on a message, but it was clear in the message that it was not authored by the moderator, then it is nothing more than a message. This really shouldn’t be hard. One is a confirmation and assuming the game isn’t bastard (which I know it isn’t since this is the Normal queue), then you should know for a fact if Kitty is Town or not. You should easily be able to confirm. At the very least, you should be able to ask if the message that you received counts as Mod communication.

the message appears to be a friendly neighbour message, but i have no way of determining whether or not a mailman could have submitted that message in order to make me think that, and i am unable to gain further clarity

So basically there is no confirmation with the message that Kitty is actually town? Why are you so so certain then?

[MalcolmTucker]

I have no idea what people expect from me. I said I'll be better day 2, and I tried.
I came to today with like 10 pages of text and 2 mentions of me, so I have to generate all my own thoughts.

So I did what I always do and look at day 1 wagons and I just wanted to look at why and when the not Mafia wagon formed, and I tried to pick out which votes I thought were bad.

But then new info comes to light so I of course chase that direction, I always said the info players bring to thr game day 2 is what drives the game and this is what I am reacting to.

My problem here is that you gave us little to go on D1 because you said it wasn't useful and now you're not really attempting to put any original info out there at all.

You seem to have been thrown off by the fact that there was lots of content once D2 started but is that not exactly what you wanted? Surely 10 pages on D2 is a goldmine for you if you're a player who does better after the first turn has passed? Your argument here seems to be that you basically expected the game to stand completely still on D2 in a way which allow you to make reads without any changing at all, but why would that happen when you acknowledge yourself info from night 1 is meant to fuel the game and move it forward?

For what it's worth, this was precisely my concern in post 1139 before the end of the first turn. You'd be able to coast through D1 without doing anything because you say it's not your style, but then if a head-to-head came up on D2 you'd be able to sheep a read on either side and move into D3 without us basically having a way to read you from either POV.

This was why I fundamentally viewed your D1 play as quite anti-town either way - like there just isn't much of a way for us to clear you from potentially being mafia right now because you've avoided contributing to the game in a way that is perfectly convenient for potential mafia. Like, if you are mafia, then this turn has gone to plan for you so far, and it'd make me wonder if you knew that might happen on D1 and were told by teammates you could plan ahead for it and avoid doing anything substantive.

None of this is meant personally or as an indictment against your style if that's how you want to play, and I'm no expert on the game so maybe I'm in the wrong here - it's just frustrating as a townie trying to solve the game when I genuinely warned about this possibility in D1.

[MalcolmTucker]

Like this sounds like bullshit. There are certain things that aren’t supposed to be confusing. If there’s a real Friendly Neighbor in the setup, you should absolutely be able to tell if the message you received was not a communication from a different player but came from the Mod. This isn’t supposed to trip you in that way. If the message is formatted a certain way, I still think the Moderator would start the communication with: “You received the following message from [blank]”. Otherwise, this just leads to an element that might be perceived as bastard, and I don’t think that’s ever the intention.

there is no indication of sender, simply a message that appears to be a friendly neighbour message

Are you explicitly told in the message that it has come from Kitty? If not, why were you the one who claimed on their behalf?

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm confused on this player/moderator thing here. Surely the important detail is whether Angela knows Kitty sent them the message? And if they know that, and know it came from a friendly neighbour as well, where is the doubt emanating from?

[MalcolmTucker]

Are you explicitly told in the message that it has come from Kitty? If not, why were you the one who claimed on their behalf?

because it appeared to be a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky and i only later became paranoid about it when thinking about mailman claim

But what do you mean by "appeared" to be here? When the message showed up, were you informed both that it was from Kitty, and that it was from a friendly neighbour?

[MalcolmTucker]

Are you explicitly told in the message that it has come from Kitty? If not, why were you the one who claimed on their behalf?

because it appeared to be a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky and i only later became paranoid about it when thinking about mailman claim

But what do you mean by "appeared" to be here? When the message showed up, were you informed both that it was from Kitty, and that it was from a friendly neighbour?

no, i mean it appeared to be a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky

like as though kittytacky had targeted me with a friendly neighbour ability

which according to the wiki would mean i would be sent a message saying kittytacky was town

which is more or less what i received

however i have no way of determining whether or not a mailman could have sent me such a message

and if it would look any different if a mailman did

and was unable to gain further clarity, so

Right, got you.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yes I understand you received a message. But a message from a mailman indicates it came from another player. It’s an important difference. The point of the role is not to confuse you or open up the possibility that you would interpret a message from another player as a Moderator communication. Because that gives the Scum an advantage that’s not supposed to be there. They’re not supposed to be able to impersonate the Moderator. This is completely clear in my mind.

but a friendly neighbour message also comes from another player

from the wiki:

"A Friendly Neighbor can target a player at Night to tell them that they are Town. The target will receive a message saying that the Friendly Neighbor is Town"

this appears to be the message i received

however, i have absolutely no way of knowing if it would look any different if a mailman sent me a message saying kittytacky was town

This is not how the role works.

You do receive a message. Kitty targets you as the recipient of the message. But the content of the message doesn’t come from Kitty. If it did, it wouldn’t count as confirmation that they’re Town (only the Mod can provide such confirmations). Like they can’t just type out a message that says “Kitty is Town”, send it to you as mailman, and for you not to clearly see that a player typed out the contents of that message. If the message came from a mailman, it’ll say: “You received the following message from [another player]: “[message]”. It will never just be a Mod confirmation with no source.

according to the wiki the role works the way i described not the way you are describing

i got a message

the message said kittytacky town

that's what i know

What part of the above is wrong in particular? Andre has given a detailed explanation as to how the role works, you are not pointing out where he is incorrect.

[MalcolmTucker]

What part of the above is wrong in particular? Andre has given a detailed explanation as to how the role works, you are not pointing out where he is incorrect.

the part about how friendly neighbour works that andresvmb is describing

does not match the wiki

nor how it works here if kittytacky is indeed a friendly neighbour

i do not think that makes kittytacky not a friendly neighbour though

as how it works here does seem to match the wiki

just does not match what andresvmb is describing

What part in particular does not match? Which aspect of his post is wrong?

[MalcolmTucker]

Am I the only one that is struggling with this? The contents of the message received by the target of the Friendly Neighbor do not come from the Friendly Neighbor. That’s literally never the case. It cannot be.

Can someone find an example of a game with a Friendly Neighbor and look at the Mod PT? I’m a bit tired of this conversation.

I think It's a waste of time,The only way this is fabricated is if they are both scum...

I don't see it..

if you want to go ask mod role questions, just call it a hypothetical question… “if I were x, what would happen”
but literally please stop with all this mod talk.. it’s actually annoying to read all this “go ask mod” “mod said” like…

JUST PLAY THE GAME

…

That's what we're doing! All the discussion is perfectly legit and centred around trying to find mafia...what's your view on it?

[MalcolmTucker]

i often take a backseat in games

like i dunno what to say sometimes i'm generally not interested in some of the minutia that goes on in games

here's where i'm at

geraintm

my problem with ger is the same as scorpius- they complained about d1 being all bad and stuff and then come in with a lackluster performance on d2. that doesn't necessarily mean anything AI though, it's just a little annoying that they made a big stink about D1 sucking and aren't able to solve the game D2.

Galron

i'm wary of galron, i think galron doesn't do much when galron is scum and i dunno what galron has done this game.

Rathe

UGh

MalcolmTucker

Im a little wary of malcolmtucker but i can't really explain why, it just seems like they're not townie just a gut thing

Scorpious

i think it's entirely possible they're a town mailman, but the friendly neighbor information does make me wary. i think they're town based on play though.

Andresvmb

annoying but probably town

Morning Tweet/Andante

I still think the not_mafia suspicion is bad and could have been an easy push. Andante has done nothing to convince me this slot is town.

angela

I just still think this slot is town. i'm not sure i love the ATE and the appeal to experience going on but it certainly could come from town, and the outing of the FN seems like a town thing not a scum thing to do.

Nero Cain

I agree with the sentiment that town nero tends to lead the game more so i'm a little worried about nero being scum this game. i don't really remember anything nero has done all game.

Save The Dragons

That's me!

KittyTacky

FN is believable

I like dragons reads. Dragons seems towny!!!

ok gg. 1 read a day... read for today is done

Going back to STD's reads...agree with others that they're very, very dull and don't say all that much at all. Almost feels like a bot has generated a bunch of reads based on general stuff players have said so far. There's nothing in there that is inherently terrible or bad, but it very much feels like a big post that doesn't have that much detail anyway. Andante's firm approval for it seems a bit odd either way.

[MalcolmTucker]

Am I the only one that is struggling with this? The contents of the message received by the target of the Friendly Neighbor do not come from the Friendly Neighbor. That’s literally never the case. It cannot be.

Can someone find an example of a game with a Friendly Neighbor and look at the Mod PT? I’m a bit tired of this conversation.

I think It's a waste of time,The only way this is fabricated is if they are both scum...

I don't see it..

If I point you to a game where the Scum played a gambit where a Scum player claimed to be a Friendly Neighbor, and roped in another member of their Team as the recipient of the message, will you stop this? I have directly said that I have seen this used a gambit between members of Scum. You are getting all upset that folks don’t believe your claim of mailman, but then when another claim is scrutinized, you’re choosing to accept it at face value. Why, I don’t know.

This is making me unsure on Scorpious. On the one hand I doubt there are two incredibly similar town roles (although nothing rules it out as such I guess?) But if Kitty's telling the truth that would make Scorpious mafia, and I don't see why scum Scorpious doesn't push this a lot more? Angela's explanation of this on the last page was a bit of a mess and felt all over the place in a way that was making me wonder if it could somehow be a fabricated claim after all this.

The only other option is maybe that Scorpious assumes they're going to go, and would rather end the turn soonish for damage limitation for mafia. They did suggest self-hammering if they were at the point of going out...

[MalcolmTucker]

a bit of a mess and felt all over the place

this is simply a very accurate description of my existence

Will be incredibly funny in a grimly annoying way if turns out these are both separate town roles in the game and we're fretting over nothing here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Again I'm still fundamentally not getting how we can be unsure whether Kitty is neighbour or not if you received a message informing you of this from them. And if you were uncertain, why the immediate trust for their claim at the start of D2 vs distrust of Scorpious? You both seem to absolutely be trusting Kitty's claim while also admitting there's nothing which says it is definitively town?

[MalcolmTucker]

also it does not say the message is from kittytacky, but neither of those abilities would

Okay wait, but you are the one who outed Kitty's role no? How did you do this before they then said you were right?

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry, but if I'm not reading this incorrectly Angela, you told us Kitty was a confirmed PR before they had claimed, even though you say the message does not say it was directly from them?

[MalcolmTucker]

also it does not say the message is from kittytacky, but neither of those abilities would

Okay wait, but you are the one who outed Kitty's role no? How did you do this before they then said you were right?

because the message

says kittytacky town

i don't understand

what's happening here

Wait so I've misunderstood...the message does not say it is directly from Kitty, but within the message it states that Kitty is town, yes?

[MalcolmTucker]

also it does not say the message is from kittytacky, but neither of those abilities would

Okay wait, but you are the one who outed Kitty's role no? How did you do this before they then said you were right?

because the message

says kittytacky town

i don't understand

what's happening here

like that is the message i would receive from kittytacky if kittytacky were a friendly neighbour, i assume

but i cannot be certain that a message from a mailman with the same contents would not appear the same way

and andresvmb says it would say

that this is from the moderator not from another player

which it does not

it's just a message

but even the wording on that other role pm and the wiki description both would point towards friendly neighbour

not saying it was from the moderator but rather a player receiving a message

which i did

But is that not what happened? You got a message from the mod, which says Kitty is town?

[MalcolmTucker]

Galron and Malcom maf (I think...)

VOTE: Galron

I note you ignored my post to you further up the page (or maybe the last one now) where I asked why you were keen to divert the game away from this discussion in particular and what you thought of it.

[MalcolmTucker]

also it does not say the message is from kittytacky, but neither of those abilities would

Okay wait, but you are the one who outed Kitty's role no? How did you do this before they then said you were right?

because the message

says kittytacky town

i don't understand

what's happening here

Wait so I've misunderstood...the message does not say it is directly from Kitty, but within the message it states that Kitty is town, yes?

yes

so i assumed this to be a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky

but then i started thinking about the mailman claim right

and i was like

wait!!!!!!!!!

would this not look the same if it were from a mailman

and that's the loop we've been stuck in for pages here

Okay, I understand (I think) where we are now.

[MalcolmTucker]

There has been some exceptional mud stirring overnight.
I am happy with my vote, I see no reason to move it

Do you have any thoughts or feelings on any of that mudslinging and what it means for the game or are you going to continue to avoid actively saying anything that might draw others onto you?

You know what, happy to put my vote here for now.

VOTE: geraintm

[MalcolmTucker]

nah haven't read much. Tweetie was voting Galron. I looked at Galron's ISO. it's bad. it also screams Malcolm is partner. so thus. Galron and malcolm maf

Why are you presenting these reads as if you're in any way confident in them when you are openly admitting you've not bothered reading most of the game yet? Pretty important caveat for anyone who might be influenced by your reads.

[MalcolmTucker]

There has been some exceptional mud stirring overnight.
I am happy with my vote, I see no reason to move it

Do you have any thoughts or feelings on any of that mudslinging and what it means for the game or are you going to continue to avoid actively saying anything that might draw others onto you?

You know what, happy to put my vote here for now.

VOTE: geraintm

We’re not doing this. I’m completely against it. I want to see a resolution for the day that actually leads somewhere. Anyone can easily hide behind geraintm’s execution by arguing that it was another black box. I’m firmly against it.

I'm happy to move my vote in-time but I genuinely think there's a solid mafia case for them here. They dodged D1 and said they'd do more on D2. D2 is now here and they're again dodging the key arguments while posting regularly enough.

Like with the last turn I am perfectly happy to move my vote but at the moment I imagine we'll be eliminating someone who is to some extent kinda quiet anyway, especially if Scorpious/Angela are deemed no-gos.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yes I think you're maf malcolm, but am I voting you yet? no. I'm voting Galron first, so that way I'm not just dead weight here while I'm busy with real life stuff. when I'm free? you can BET I'll revisit my SR on you, but till then, between Galron and Tweet's ISO, I feel very happy with a vote on Galron right now

Okay but you've come into the game presenting your reads with incredible confidence before admitting you've not actually caught up on most of the game yet. Frankly I'm not sure why we should trust your views at this point yet because you're clearly lacking context for your suspicions.

[MalcolmTucker]

why is there so much mod talk.. like seriously.. this is gonna get real annoying real fast, like Andres, THERE'S NO REASON for you to even say "mod confirmation" in that.


if you want the TLDR "reads" I have up through 72 we have

T -> S
Dragons/Nero - Tied
angela
Andres
Scorpious/Galron - Tied

Are you seriously trying to get me to talk more succinctly? I was trying to close the loop on that conversation so that we could move on. There’s no reason for you to complain about my post at all actually.

Agreed, it's a complete filler post from Andante though - lets them comment on the game in a way that makes them look frustrated/helpful without actually saying anything of note.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: MalcolmTucker

Out of interest, why aren't you pushing Rathe here with a vote? Obviously you suspect me too so your vote isn't inconsistent or out of place, but you're consistently saying you think Rathe is mafia to a greater degree than anyone else and yet again you're neglecting to start a wagon on it. Is it because you know they aren't and you don't actually have that much conviction behind it anyway?

[MalcolmTucker]

@Andante you have Nero Cain and Save The Dragons as your top Town Reads? Can you explain Save The Dragons? We’re disagreeing there so I want to better understand that. There’s more than one person that thinks that STD is Town so I have an open mind about being wrong there. Nero Cain I’m mostly just suspicious for activity - I can’t really question them claiming to be burned out and it’s happened to me too so I’m taking that at face value.

I said yesterday STD/Andante could quite easily be teammates. STD puts in a vote for Andante in post 1326 and in post 1636 indicates they're unconvinced the slot is town. But in post 1668 they say they don't want to vote for Andante "yet", and by post 1671 they have now moved their read of Andante to "uncertain". How have they progressed from SR'ing Andante to now being uncertain re the slot? And why would they even be considering then voting for Andante if they are unsure whether the slot is mafia when they suspect Rathe much more strongly and have done so since the start?

If just STD is mafia then it's inconsistent play which hints at mafia being unsure who to suspect. Andante came in and immediately TR'd STD in a way that may have been surprising for them - suddenly STD potentially had a valuable ally on their side instead of a player who could act as an easy scapegoat coming into the game.

But them being teammates is also equally feasible for me. One puts some light suspicion on the other to create distance without following up on it, while the other TR's their teammate since they were 2nd for votes in D1 and need some support.

But if there's no link here - there's also the fact Andante is saying they just haven't read up on the game so far. They're not making informed reads, just hitting and hoping.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'mportant "stuff" from first 100 posts
~ Nero is Town, Angela is Town, and Dragons is Town
I'm never voting there

Sorry but how are you making absolute claims on who you will/won't for after just 100 posts? What have any of these players done to justify that beyond conversation the reads you already had before starting to catch up? This doesn't feel remotely genuine from you.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'mportant "stuff" from first 100 posts
~ Nero is Town, Angela is Town, and Dragons is Town
I'm never voting there

Sorry but how are you making absolute claims on who you will/won't for after just 100 posts? What have any of these players done to justify that beyond conversation the reads you already had before starting to catch up? This doesn't feel remotely genuine from you.

They're town, and it's pretty dang clear lol

Yeah that doesn't clear it up at all. I'm not sure how you can deduce anyone is absolutely town after 100 posts, and it's especially suspect when this just happens to align with your preconceived opinions.

[MalcolmTucker]

'm not sure how you can deduce anyone is absolutely town after 100 posts

it's actually really easy when people act in a way I believe as towny, and when yall are just gonna keep pressuring me, and not let me finish what I'm doing to reach final conclusions, cause yeah. reads change, but everyone wants to keep giving me crap for having nothing, so I'm updating as I go, and if all yall want to really fight me on this I'll just stop reading and call it a day

I wasn't needing or expecting a reply right away to be fair, just questioning the logic of the post. The last part of your response there feels incredibly flaky and deflects from the actual point being made...my read of you isn't going to be influenced if you take a bit longer to reply because I know you're going through the game so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

And btw I'm just disregarding Andante's scum read of me because she has yet to town read me in any game if I'm remembering correctly.

Yeah sorry but this approach from Andante is a bit ridiculous and I'm surprised more people aren't commenting on it at all, we have someone just blinding making up mafia reads without having read most of the game days into joining, and then going back and making a really boring a vague list of reads that is solely meant to conform to their prior assumptions from when they first joined the game. Also throwing tantrums over people questioning their reads in a way that is perfectly legit. And also blindly asserting some players are absolutely and definitely town without having read most of the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: MalcolmTucker

Let’s try this.

Sorry but what was your reasoning for this? I don't get it. What do you think is particularly mafia about me? What does eliminating me from the game actually gain in comparison to other eliminations? Your play recently has been logic-driven and pretty good for me, this feels a bit random, dunno if it's just frustration because we're struggling to get anything definitive re finding scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

save the dragons thinks im mafia cuz he thought kitty was town n i went after kitty
i still think it was weird cuz other people went after kitty but yet he zeroed on me n then said it was gut i dont know how to feel about it cuz theres no way to defend against gut

I also think it's weird that STD has remained glued to you yet hasn't actually tried to get a D2 wagon going at all and hasn't actually really pushed properly for your elimination. At this point it feels more like mafia wanting to stick to an easy early game read without their heart particularly being in it at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

@Andante you have Nero Cain and Save The Dragons as your top Town Reads? Can you explain Save The Dragons? We’re disagreeing there so I want to better understand that. There’s more than one person that thinks that STD is Town so I have an open mind about being wrong there. Nero Cain I’m mostly just suspicious for activity - I can’t really question them claiming to be burned out and it’s happened to me too so I’m taking that at face value.

I said yesterday STD/Andante could quite easily be teammates. STD puts in a vote for Andante in post 1326 and in post 1636 indicates they're unconvinced the slot is town. But in post 1668 they say they don't want to vote for Andante "yet", and by post 1671 they have now moved their read of Andante to "uncertain". How have they progressed from SR'ing Andante to now being uncertain re the slot? And why would they even be considering then voting for Andante if they are unsure whether the slot is mafia when they suspect Rathe much more strongly and have done so since the start?

If just STD is mafia then it's inconsistent play which hints at mafia being unsure who to suspect. Andante came in and immediately TR'd STD in a way that may have been surprising for them - suddenly STD potentially had a valuable ally on their side instead of a player who could act as an easy scapegoat coming into the game.

But them being teammates is also equally feasible for me. One puts some light suspicion on the other to create distance without following up on it, while the other TR's their teammate since they were 2nd for votes in D1 and need some support.

But if there's no link here - there's also the fact Andante is saying they just haven't read up on the game so far. They're not making informed reads, just hitting and hoping.

I mean, I took that vote on me as just a joke.. like a "hi friend" literally just like Pooky and Tweet at the beginning.... you're definitely overanalyzing something so small..

Note here that the "overanalysing" just entirely ignores the actual substance of the post. The point of this game is to analyse. Sometimes certain theories won't be pushed forward or will be disproved but the idea is to come up with reads and see where they land.

I've given two possible scenarios here - one where STD is just mafia and scales back their SR of you because you think they're incredibly town and you're a useful ally for them, and another where the two of you are potentially allied together. I'm not simply honing in on one vague theory, I'm presenting a couple of scenarios where one or both of you could be mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't understand the Malcolm wagon, Malcolm isn't scummy at all to me, it's between STD and Scorp today.

Also I'm sick so might not be very active.

Yeah it feels a bit like a mix of boredom since we're struggling to get anywhere, potential mafia trying to force a town wagon, and people (who could be mafia) frustrated I'm pushing them and lazily voting for me without a good reason. What is actually scummy about me at all? I repeatedly neglected to join or push the D1 wagon for someone who was eliminated and ended up being town. We have a solid bunch of players here who joined said wagon because they couldn't be bothered to come up with someone else to eliminate and who are all being given a free pass for it. Some of them will be town of course but there is almost certainly some mafia in there.

[MalcolmTucker]

I dislike geraintm's posting. That last post is a head scratcher. It seems to be a call to arms and comes across as he is trying to miz scorpious. And I'm not a big fan of scorpious either.

I think the "I don't think there will be many places left for scum to hide" feels incredibly fake and naff to me as well. Irrespective of how Scorpious flips there's a decent chance we have one or two mafia players (potentially including geraint) who have been fairly quiet and hiding away from the main action so far. Note there is no actual analysis or original thought from geraint, just a lazy promotion of what's been one of the more popular D2 choices so far.

Again on D1 they said they would be more active and that they always tend to do very little on D1. Now it's D2 and they are again just lazily doing nothing of note and trying to get the Scorpious wagon going. At what point do they actually have to do something before we consider eliminating them?

[MalcolmTucker]

galron seems like town to me but andante said there was a disconnect between galrons first post n second or third post

n i dont think like that the tone sounds ok

so if galron is mafia it is blind to me

It's because Andante wasn't reading the game genuinely, they went back to the start and only read the first 100 posts so they could confirm their biases and retain their initial reads. Their analysis of the game in the longer post they made a couple of pages ago is so thin and wasn't done from the POV of someone starting a readthrough with an open mind, it was just done to lazily confirm their pre-assigned SRs. Honestly, anyone blindly trusting or following this slot's reads at this point is incredibly suspect to me because they're coming from a perspective of someone admitting they haven't caught up with most of the game. Andante could potentially be town, but I'm not convinced people agreeing with them will come back town at all if that is the case.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think the "I don't think there will be many places left for scum to hide" feels incredibly fake and naff to me as well.

1st, excellent use of the word naff.


2nd, to me at least i would find it hard to beleive Angela was town, and i would struggle to see how people would think i was scum if Scorpious flipped scum. Combined with Kitty being green and another death in the night, there would be 9 left, 3 i think should be seen as town leaving 2 scum amoung 6 people - though that 6 might be further narrowed down after the night.

that is my thinking, i am not sure why it comes across as fake?

I think Scorpious flipping town would make Angela very suspect but far from guaranteed mafia. There's a possibility - albeit not necessarily something that'd be definite - that Scorpious/Angela is just very active town-on-town.

Scorpious mafia would largely clear you (and probably Andre given early exchanges), but by the same token I think such an argument could basically apply to any flip? The same could go for you - if you flipped mafia it'd basically clear me and Scorpious, to give just one example. If Scorpious comes back town I think it gives us some useful info to a point, but not necessarily a whole lot more than with other players.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think the "I don't think there will be many places left for scum to hide" feels incredibly fake and naff to me as well.

1st, excellent use of the word naff.


2nd, to me at least i would find it hard to beleive Angela was town, and i would struggle to see how people would think i was scum if Scorpious flipped scum. Combined with Kitty being green and another death in the night, there would be 9 left, 3 i think should be seen as town leaving 2 scum amoung 6 people - though that 6 might be further narrowed down after the night.

that is my thinking, i am not sure why it comes across as fake?

I think Scorpious flipping town would make Angela very suspect but far from guaranteed mafia. There's a possibility - albeit not necessarily something that'd be definite - that Scorpious/Angela is just very active town-on-town.

Scorpious mafia would largely clear you (and probably Andre given early exchanges), but by the same token I think such an argument could basically apply to any flip? The same could go for you - if you flipped mafia it'd basically clear me and Scorpious, to give just one example. If Scorpious comes back town I think it gives us some useful info to a point, but not necessarily a whole lot more than with other players.

I do sort of see what you were going for with the original post there more now with your follow-up, so the use of "naff" - while it is a fun word - was perhaps a tad harsh.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think Scorpious flipping town would make Angela very suspect

i,

guess i just,

don't really understand at all

like my being wrong doesn't make me mafia i am wrong quite often much more often than i would like to be

and! like, i don't go very far out of my way to make the game much harder for myself as mafia?

which is what you would have to think i'd be doing this game in general if you think i am mafia

but, shrug, this is all hedged on a scorpious townflip anyway and doesn't seem as worth discussing as the likelihood of that potential townflip

but anyway like i said, tomorrow's eyes

My concern would be less about you making a wrong call but more due to the way you went all-in on Scorpious immediately at the start of D2 without really stopping to consider whether there could have been a mistake. You've only later seemed to consider that a bit more.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm aware I won't look good if Scorpious flips and I'm also aware we probably need to solve the Scorpious/Kitty/Angela thing this turn potentially otherwise it'll continue to dominate the game, but I'm just not particularly getting a mafia read from Scorpious at all here.

I think for scum Scorpious it'd have been more beneficial to try and push a line that Kitty/Angela were lying. It's a risky strategy but at least presents an opportunity at escape if people buy it. And if it starts to go south, there's an easy opportunity for mafia to distance themselves from Scorpious going forward.

Nothing about Scorpious' strategy here is giving me vibes of mafia desperately trying to escape, the frustration seems genuine. Jackson is unlikely to go out this turn for example...so why leave your vote parked there? If you're mafia then at this point you want to be moving your vote to someone with a better chance of going out.

Also re D1, I don't think mafia Scorpious has any interest in stopping the NM discussion. NM's elimination was clearly beneficial for mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

I quite like Jackson's posts so far but could very easily be mafia trying to tidy up the mess that was increasingly being created by that slot.

2009 for example is actually an interesting post that has some original thoughts and ideas, if Jackson is town they are thinking outside the box and that's good, but while saying Pooky was quite anti-town is an interesting idea conceptually, it's also convenient for mafia because it allows them to essentially say they suspect a player who's no longer in the game and whose alignment is already known. It means Jackson can avoid actually having to heap any suspicion onto someone they know is town and alive, and who can potentially fire back at them.

Likewise backing off Scorpious a bit in terms of TR'ing them, while something that would align with my view, could be Jackson trying to come across as a sensible and reasonable townie even if they aren't.

More than willing to let this slot live into D3 though, not quite definitive mafia and looks like a good player to have onboard if part of the town.

[MalcolmTucker]

nothing posted has made me change my mind.

I sorta like Scorps tone at times but I still think his "I accidentally hammered d1" is bullshit.

I dislike 1919 and I think its cheap and he's being overly nitpicky so I'd be perfectly fine with a Tucker flip today.

This pings me a little bit if Scorpious ends up coming back town, feels a bit like a way for you to continue voting for them if it's in your interests to do so, while trying to distance yourself from the elimination a little bit.

I think your D2 play has been really careful and cagey taking a look through your ISO - not that many posts despite the fact a lot is going on. Again if Scorpious is town could be a convenient way to distance yourself from any miselim while still letting it go through.

[MalcolmTucker]

More than willing to let this slot live into D3 though, not quite definitive mafia and looks like a good player to have onboard if part of the town.

unsure of why you’re talking about someone living through day three before an elimination has occurred day two

also not really sure how potentially outside the box thinking regarding someone who was already nightkilled which could possibly be mafia indicative to you really means would be good to have around to you either

like this post is like

here’s why jacksonvirgo might be a mafia and what they might be doing with regards to pooky if so

but they should remain in the game indefinitely

like it doesn’t feel weighted based on likelihood of being mafia rather than weighted based on some perceived value to the game

Re the bolded, this feels nitpicky - was clearly speaking in terms of daykill, have no idea what mafia will do overnight.

And I'd argue saying I want the slot left in the game "indefinitely" is a complete misrepresentation of what I said. I said that presuming the town decices not to vote out Jackson who's just replaced in, I'm fine for the slot to be around tomorrow but it should come under heavy pressure given some of Andante's posts and what I wrote above. I don't think that's particularly contentious at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think for scum Scorpious it'd have been more beneficial to try and push a line that Kitty/Angela were lying. It's a risky strategy but at least presents an opportunity at escape if people buy it. And if it starts to go south, there's an easy opportunity for mafia to distance themselves from Scorpious going forward.

Counterpoint: FN isn't one-shot, all it would do at the very most is delay his death by a day... if that. From what I have seen, FN is a trustworthy claim for that exact reason.

If you're Scorpious and you're going out though, a one-day delay is all you need. Currently he's the prime candidate for elimination and has been for most of D2, anything to prolong that would be beneficial for him.

[MalcolmTucker]

I’m E-2 btw…

While not a “rule” it seems like the courteous thing to do is call out E-2’s and E-1’s… Nobody in this game has been doing that..

Hence my accidental hammer. Always found it a little scummy to not do it..

Thoughts from anyone?

I thought it was customary to call out E-1 but not E-2.

I don’t want to break the rules, I’ve always considered a “gentle-persons agreement”. But don’t know it is in stone.

Is site activity outside the game permissible to discuss?

If it's not an ongoing game, sure.

I think for scum Scorpious it'd have been more beneficial to try and push a line that Kitty/Angela were lying. It's a risky strategy but at least presents an opportunity at escape if people buy it. And if it starts to go south, there's an easy opportunity for mafia to distance themselves from Scorpious going forward.

Counterpoint: FN isn't one-shot, all it would do at the very most is delay his death by a day... if that. From what I have seen, FN is a trustworthy claim for that exact reason.

If you're Scorpious and you're going out though, a one-day delay is all you need. Currently he's the prime candidate for elimination and has been for most of D2, anything to prolong that would be beneficial for him.

Fair, but I feel the play is just too risky and if it fails it's a

guaranteed

death instead of very likely.

Possibly, I suppose mafia Scorpious would be unlikely to pursue it initially because it could backfire, so if they left it then they feel it was too inauthentic to try and pick it up again later perhaps. Just in general though Scorpious' play does not feel particularly scummy to me. Like I say the frustration seems genuine.

[MalcolmTucker]

Like I say the frustration seems genuine.

okay but why do you think scum!scorpious would not be frustrated here? like i agree that scorpious seems genuinely frustrated, just asking why you think that only comes from town

I think mafia would be frustrated but in a more calculated way so as to appear townie. Although obviously not always the case.

[MalcolmTucker]

@jackson

A player you believe is town based on 10 pages of random votes?
Stop wasting time interacting with us and read the game, then come back and play properly

Sorry for prolonged absence - surprisingly busy couple of days. I'm still reading through the past 10 pages or so, but this post is an incredibly, incredibly weird one for Geraint given they told Jackson most of day 1 is useless, and given they have said they inherently believe themselves most of day 1 tends to be useless. This feels a bit like potential mafia frustration since Jackson's slot went from being confrontational with Scorpious to now TR'ing him. Note Gera - as with basically all of their play - doesn't actually engage with the content of Jackson's posts, instead they attack them for a reason entirely inconsistent with their own play.

[MalcolmTucker]

I see a few others cottoned onto this and geraint now a potential candidate for elimination - post 2192 stinks as well.

Especially given post 2027, where Jackson is explicitly told by geraint not to bother reading most of the game because it's pointless. Why the sudden shift in tone? Makes sense that it'd be mafia frustration coming through.

[MalcolmTucker]

I am happy with the logic of scorpious needing to go. I looked earlier in at other suspects before the whole angela/kitty stuff came to light but town can wait on the until tomorrow when we have more info.
I see no reason to look for others to vote off today, when they would best be based on gut whilst as I have said many times, I love the case on scorpious

Like who loves the case on Scorpious? I don’t. I’m still struggling with the mechanical argument (as I’ve pointed out repeatedly), and they’re complaining about stuff I find myself thinking about at times. Like geraintm has actually contributed little content. So Scorpious being upset at them getting pressure and geraintm skating by after some of their contributions feels like Townie frustration. Instead of being frustrated by it, Scum would look to take advantage of that. It’s a different sort of feel to the posts.

im unsure why i am skating by. i have clearly stuck my head above the parapet pushing scorpious, i am not sitting here not posting. i have tried to explain to new players the reasoning -you might not like the reasons but to say i have no tried to use logic to explain my vote is misleading.

This as well is weird - I'm not sure how come in and just casually agreeing with the Scorpious wagon and barely questioning anyone else when you staked going through to D2 on doing just that is exactly "sticking your head above the parapet". The Scorpious wagon was literally the easiest one for anyone to hop onto. If it goes through you can potentially hide behind others who pushed it or just claim you were genuine of your suspicion in a townie way.

[MalcolmTucker]

My instincts at this game are absolutely dreadful.

I was the one who got overnight message from Kitty, just confirming they are town naturally.

[MalcolmTucker]

I am like 99% Enchant is taking the piss there? Weird vig shot if not.

[MalcolmTucker]

I’m happy with an execution amongst {Save The Dragons, JacksonVirgo} today. I think MalcolmTucker could also be Scum.

I’m never voting geraintm, angela, or Rathe. Nero Cain is probably fine, and I’m not going to push Enchant today either. If I’m wrong, I’ll re-evaluate tomorrow maybe. But I don’t see why we would do anything else quite frankly.

I think STD is our best elimination candidate today - Jackson's defence of Scorpious increasingly seems quite misguided but genuine. Remember Andante and Scorpious had a bit of heat going on D2 till Andante dropped out. Could potentially be manufactured but seems quite elaborate.

Nero should also probably be considered for the chop as well.

I'd also understand if people wanted to eliminate me given my continual defences of Scorpious, but I don't think mafia me would have been quite so blatant in that situation and would have likely tried to create some distance.

Apologies to Geraint for my continual suspicion - pretty much confirmed town at this point I'd say.

[MalcolmTucker]

I really do not think Jackson is mafia here. Andante/Scorpious were really going at each other midway through D2 to the point where I reckon Andante could've became a potential candidate for elimination if we were struggling. I don't think there's a benefit for mafia here in going all out against each other to create some distance between each other when it could backfire.

Jackson's play strikes me as a townie who just read Scorpious incredibly different from the player who had their slot beforehand. Yes it could be worth trying to save Scorpious - but why would Andante not take this approach beforehand as well?

[MalcolmTucker]

Granted, I know STD will likely say they had to opt for someone on D2 and none of their own preferred elimination candidates (mainly me or Rathe) were up for the chop as such, but their view on Geraint seemed to shift very suddenly in a way that could allow them to look like they were making a vote that was based on conviction and not just a last ditch attempt to save Scorpious.

Post 1636 criticises Geraint for their approach to the game and I personally think it was a fair point to make at the time, but also an easy one for mafia to jump onto without looking suspicious (as Scorpious did).

But post 2269 is then a lot more antagonistic toward Geraint in a way that doesn't feel particularly organic given previous reads. I'd argue the two main players pushing Geraint based on their play were me and Scorpious - the latter is confirmed mafia now and the former (myself) is someone STD suspects as being mafia.

If STD believes I'm mafia, why were they so willing to eliminate Geraint? I get you can have multiple lines of enquiry at the same time and you can acknowledge that if one of your suspects is guilty the other will be clean, but this doesn't appear to be something they've questioned or thought about at all. It was a nice easy vote to direct away from Scorpious.

[MalcolmTucker]

i wasn't saying you read are bad or anything i was pointing out you have a lot of {?} which i have a lot of {?} too

i tr kitty from play yesterday so just because i mentioned the doesn't mean that's the only thing i'm considering. we also agree nero is suspicious and potentially andante, and that ger is null, so i dunno why you're acting like my list is bad when we do have some common points

this is what i feel. it's not a wide pool, it's one more scumread than you. (@andres)

scum is in = {galron, nero, rathe, malcolmtucker}

null = {ger}

uncertain = {andante}

town = {rest}

These are some of STD's null reads on Geraint, it's pretty clear they didn't particularly suspect them at all. But when it came to placing their vote suddenly Ger's playing style (which had been largely NAI for them until then) was worthy of an elimination. What fundamentally changed?

[MalcolmTucker]

I kinda disagree with a lot Nero has said throughout the game and I think their lack of a vote on D2 is suspicious, but their D1 push for Scorpious does seem fairly genuine and again not entirely advisable if mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

I ISO’ed STD btw and they made every soft defense of Scorpious that could have been made this game, and never voted there. When I (and others) were focused there early, they made a comment about how their eyes were glazing over and they didn’t think it was worth even debating (it clearly was). Then they obviously defended Scorpious mechanically by suggesting we don’t try and “outguess the Mod”. They of course did push geraintm hard when it was convenient and could avoid an execution of Scorpious. Like I think it’s obvious STD needs to get executed this game.

Agreed, there are one or two minor disagreements or tiffs between them here and there but they never go anywhere. Quite notable STD was both very much not willing to get rid of Scorpious but never mounted a committed or deliberate defence and instead suddenly happened to suspect their main rival for elimination on D2.

VOTE: SaveTheDragons

[MalcolmTucker]

I will add, we should hold off hammering anytime soon if the votes start to pile up, I think D3 will mostly be useful for trying to figure out a potential third partner if STD is seen as the most viable elimination.

[MalcolmTucker]

As I've said from the start as well, STD's push on Rathe has been both consistent but fairly weak - they've never really dropped it, perhaps because they reckon they need to come across as having some strong reads, but there's never been much conviction or an attempt to actually push for elimination at all. Just feels a bit like mafia going through the motions.

[MalcolmTucker]

i feel like we're getting distracted in crap that doesn't matter and ignoring what does matter like voting rathe

ok it's not crap per se but my eyes are glazing over and it's hard to focus on this "it's a joke it's not a joke it's a percent it's a lie it's not a lie" convo going on

Scorpious

i think it's entirely possible they're a town mailman, but the friendly neighbor information does make me wary. i think they're town based on play though.

This is what I’m talking about specifically.

In the same last post there STD was also null on geraint. Funny how that changed pretty quickly.

[MalcolmTucker]

Re 1636 as well - I find it interesting how STD sort of backs away from giving a definitive read on both Galron (now Enchant?) and Nero as well.

"Wary" of Galron but again this has never really been pushed or taken any further. Easy way to potentially create some distance or sow some doubt as to them being teammates but never developed upon. Likewise with Nero, "worried" about their lack of contribution but mostly just doesn't remember what they've done all game.

Same could go for Jackson as well based on that post - "nothing to convince" them the slot is town, however never really pushed it at all.

It's weird readslist because almost everyone who isn't confirmed town comes under some level of suspicion, but there are no major pushes after this except for Geraint, who was battling to stay in the game against a now confirmed mafia player.

[MalcolmTucker]

Does anyone have a contrarian view? Could STD just have been wrong? What do we feel about Rathe?

I think Rathe has been pretty solid so far. Sporadic contributions at times but concise and tend to talk sense when they drop in. In another game I'd say they could be sly mafia but I think STD's continual push in them nudges them right into town category provided STD comes back mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

Actually, starting a wagon on STD at this stage is probably pointless.

What do you think of Scorp, Pook?

I don't like that wagon make up on STD.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Interesting this from D1. Doesn't really elaborate on why it's not a good idea as such. Generally not much between them in the way of interactions. Galron had also just backed off the bandwagon beforehand after initially putting down a vote. Was also very uncertain re Scorpious despite some pressure in D1.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah I'm starting to think it could be Scorpious-STD-Enchant here.

Granted Enchant is newish and STD has been quiet but there's no interaction between them or even a single mention of the other. STD kinda suspected Galron but more for generally not doing anything than for anything concrete which might lead to elimination. Galron backed off STD wagon to go for NM instead on D1.

Both STD/Enchant's slot pushed Scorpious at times but often with hesitation or without all that much conviction.

[MalcolmTucker]

I replaced in slot who voted NM, noooooooooo

What do you make of STD?

[MalcolmTucker]

why would that team ever bus scorpious there??

wouldn’t enchant always vote geraintm and count on jacksonvirgo hammering?

Without Enchant's vote though there's no hammer in the first place. Maybe they reckoned Scorpious was headed out anyway and it was best to create some distance so the whole team wasn't on the wagon? But then I dunno, if Scorpious had survived they could've easily pressure me for elimination on D3 to carry them through. It's not a bulletproof theory, just an idea based on the slot's interactions with various players.

[MalcolmTucker]

Had Enchant gone Geraint it would have all come down to Nero's vote. Interested in where Nero would have gone.

[MalcolmTucker]

I replaced in slot who voted NM, noooooooooo

What do you make of STD?

I just realised he is in game, never saw him talking duh.

Okay, so what do you make of our posts above and of his ISO in general, given he's currently a main candidate for elimination?

[MalcolmTucker]

if enchant voted geraintm jacksonvirgo would have likely hammered geraintm?

like enchant could have put either at e-1 there

and there’s little incentive to enchant choosing scorpious if partnered

Forgetting Jackson was just hammering whoever was likely go out. Was just an idea, maybe unlikely then but ISOs wouldn't rule out a partnership beyond that vote.

[MalcolmTucker]

Looking good for us then.

Almost certainly Jackson or Nero for last mafia I'd imagine. I've been wary on Jackson so far and think Andante's approach would've been odd re arguing with Scorpious considering Jackson then did the opposite, but otherwise matches up quite well.

Nero was accusatory of Scorpious on the first day so perhaps a bit less likely.

[MalcolmTucker]

Angela, Andres, Geraint, Rathe and myself all to varying degrees either confirmed town or leaning very strongly town I'd say barring a huge gambit from mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

Me, andres and Jackson clear.
Angela 99% clear

Malcolm is not clear to me

I'd pushed STD pretty consistently from the start, don't think mafia would really have any benefit in doing that.

[MalcolmTucker]

Angela, Andres, Geraint, Rathe and myself all to varying degrees either confirmed town or leaning very strongly town I'd say barring a huge gambit from mafia.

yourself only to you, or?

I've pushed STD from the start pretty regularly, might not quite be confirmed town but I'd struggle to see why you'd particularly read me as mafia at this point.

[MalcolmTucker]

Angela, Andres, Geraint, Rathe and myself all to varying degrees either confirmed town or leaning very strongly town I'd say barring a huge gambit from mafia.

yourself only to you, or?

I've pushed STD from the start pretty regularly, might not quite be confirmed town but I'd struggle to see why you'd particularly read me as mafia at this point.

aren't you being a hypocrite though? like I know you just got done saying that I'm less likely but you are still considering that idea that I could be scum while having pushed scum for most of the game.

You pushed Scorpious a bit on D1 but you're one of the few (if any?) remaining players in the game who haven't been on either of the votes to eliminate two players who've ended up being mafia. That's definitely a bit suspicious and it's only you're early attacks on Scorpious that make me think you're less likely to be mafia. I'd been thinking Jackson might be town for a while but that's probably quite unlikely now.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm still unsure on geraint but I think them being unwilling to get on the Scorpious bandwagon given they've been a main candidate so far is quite townie.

I'm happy to move my vote from there if nobody else fancies it, and fine to get on an STD bandwagon because I don't think they've looked townie so far and their suspicions of Rathe feel very manufactured.

VOTE: SaveTheDragons

Busy day ahead so likely won't be around till D2.

I jumped onto the STD bandwagon on D1 since they were probably my second main suspect after Geraint. When the next votecount was made it was 4-4 between NM and STD. Why would I go for STD here if we're teammates, knowing I wouldn't be around to change my vote at the last if they looked like they weren't going out? Could've easily just left it on Geraint if we were teammates and I felt going for NM was too risky. Just not something mafia would do here quite frankly.

[MalcolmTucker]

jacksonvirgo clear

or possibly a ninja i guess?

but this seems less likely

I don't think Jackson is any clearer than yesterday, STD was such an obvious elimination that it was probably time for their partner to cut them loose.

[MalcolmTucker]

I have ruled out Jackson as a suspect from your info, they are not where we should be looking today in my opinion

Why is Jackson now any less likely than yesterday here? I've been uncertain on them but hammering doesn't do much for me in this case, was obvious STD was going out and a counterargument could've looked suspect. As I say been unsure on Jackson but barring some major mafia gambit, I'm struggling to see who else it could be here - everyone else looking either pretty townie, or has done things which probably wouldn't chime with mafia play. Nero I'm unsure on too but not convinced they go in that hard on Scorpious on D1, even if this later faded away a bit.

[MalcolmTucker]

jacksonvirgo clear

or possibly a ninja i guess?

but this seems less likely

I don't think Jackson is any clearer than yesterday, STD was such an obvious elimination that it was probably time for their partner to cut them loose.

i do!! but i have information i did not have at that time, so!

Oh, alright. Have I missed something here?

[MalcolmTucker]

jacksonvirgo clear

or possibly a ninja i guess?

but this seems less likely

can’t be ascetic because got a negative result rather than no result

so i think these are the only options

and mafia already have multitasking and mailman and roleblocker

so ninja seems not so likely

Sorry I entirely missed this post.

[MalcolmTucker]

jacksonvirgo clear

or possibly a ninja i guess?

but this seems less likely

I don't think Jackson is any clearer than yesterday, STD was such an obvious elimination that it was probably time for their partner to cut them loose.

i do!! but i have information i did not have at that time, so!

Oh, alright. Have I missed something here?

Quite, it appears

Apologies, seen Angela's post now.

[MalcolmTucker]

Considering you believe everyone else to be townie, where would you look now that I am almost fully cleared.

Swaying re Nero. Feel like a lot of their play has been kinda mafiaish, but like I say the push on Scorpious seems quite townie in retrospect. Just feels a bit suspect it was never really sustained as much in D2 when Scorpious came under more consistent pressure and became proper prime candidate for elimination, but Nero has been very quiet anyway so could just be general inactivity.

Is Rathe a possible shout still? I felt like STD's constant claims they were mafia ruled it out, but I did point out the push never really went anywhere and never materialised any votes or pressure at all. I'd need to take a look through Rathe's ISO though.

[MalcolmTucker]

Considering you believe everyone else to be townie, where would you look now that I am almost fully cleared.

but what if i am fake claiming?

mon laferte smoking gif

Nightmare fuel right there.

[MalcolmTucker]

I really think you guys need to take into account me being on STD on D1. Mafia simply does not do that. I'll dig out later but I consistently pushed STD on D1 too and stayed firmly off the NM bandwagon. Again - what's the benefit to mafia in doing that?

[MalcolmTucker]

Floated it before but presuming nobody is lying, could Rathe still be mafia? I know I'm not, but from an uninformed town POV the final mafia would then have to be somewhere in Rathe, Nero or myself, you'd imagine.

[MalcolmTucker]

I've TR'd Rathe most of the game but then my instincts are generally rubbish and at this point I can only really see it being Nero or Rathe. Going to do a proper scour of both ISOs later.

[MalcolmTucker]

I've gone through Nero and Rathe's ISOs a bit to try and see where we're at but feeling a bit stumped - I think both could potentially be mafia, but I'd struggle to make a committed push for either of them in particularly good faith for reasons that also potentially couldn't apply to me to an extent, especially with Rathe.

Re Rathe - STD continually pushed them but it was a push that never really went either and could have been constructed to create a bit of distance. But, like me, Rathe did vote for STD a point in D1 when I'm not sure it was consistent for them to do so.

Nero has been suspiciously quiet since D1. On D1 they pushed Scorpious a decent bit but then defaulted to NM, and they haven't voted for an elimination since. A record of eliminating townie over mafia, followed by two non-votes on mafia players, is not a good look. But if we weren't unsure I'd be more likely to say they're town based on their Scorpious push.

Personally I really do not think I look mafia re the STD push. I was pretty consistent on calling them out from D1 - I noted that the push on Rathe was fake and that they weren't offering particularly genuine contributions to the game in a way that would have been town. No reason Nero couldn't be partnered with them, I don't think, it's just the Scorpious link that makes me a bit morew unsure.

So as I say I think I look really town here, but I'd also struggle to properly push for an elimination of either Rathe or Nero without some proper further discussion. I struggle to see Geraint/Angela as liars in this scenario or Andre as mafia given early exchanges with Scorpious. I may be your best elimination here but can assure you it's most definitely not going to be end of game, and I think you're maybe best taking some time before getting rid of me to deduce who is your best target for D4 on how they've approached me. I think anyone pushing for an immediate and quick elimination when we have lots of time is suspect if not already cleared.

[MalcolmTucker]

Re how I've played on STD - I called out their push on Rathe being fairly weak and inconsistent in 848 and 862. In 866 I further detailed why I believed this push wasn't particularly genuine and felt like it could be coming from mafia. At this point in the game, if I remember correctly, STD had been kinda quiet and wasn't under too much suspicion. I don't think there's much benefit in mafia continually going after a partner here.

In 871 I pointed out that STD was deflecting away from my line of enquiry instead of just engaging with it naturally, and I stated this again in 875 and 878. Again I think mafia here if they're trying to manufacture an argument just sort of lets this go instead of continually pushing it. Likewise in 879 I pointed out to STD whether they should perhaps evaluate their suspicion for Rathe given nobody else was interested, again I got the sense this wasn't a genuine SR but instead just mafia going through the motions.

In 1257 I voted for STD instead of NM at a point when either of them could have gone out, and when I was going to be offline for the rest of D1. I believe the votes were about split at that point. Again, not what mafia does in this situation.

In 1448 I pointed out that Pooky had suspected STD a bit before elimination and there was a potential link there. In 1752 I pointed out STD's reads were quite dull and could easily come from hesitant mafia.

Again in 1848 I pointed out STD was neglecting to push Rathe despite suspecting them, while STD voted for me instead. In 1852 I then laid out why I thought STD and Andante (now Jackson) might be teammates.

I get this could feasibly be two mafia distancing themselves from each other for late-game, we've not quite been at each other's throats in every second post, but does all of the above read like two teammates? Why was I continually pushing a relatively inactive teammate (hypothetically if you think I'm mafia?) when they were under minimal pressure. Why did I vote for them when the vote was evenly split and they could end up going out? Why did I go back into suspecting them again on D2?

[MalcolmTucker]

I've gone through Nero and Rathe's ISOs a bit to try and see where we're at but feeling a bit stumped - I think both could potentially be mafia, but I'd struggle to make a committed push for either of them in particularly good faith for reasons that also potentially couldn't apply to me to an extent, especially with Rathe.

Re Rathe - STD continually pushed them but it was a push that never really went either and could have been constructed to create a bit of distance. But, like me, Rathe did vote for STD a point in D1 when I'm not sure it was consistent for them to do so.

Nero has been suspiciously quiet since D1. On D1 they pushed Scorpious a decent bit but then defaulted to NM, and they haven't voted for an elimination since. A record of eliminating townie over mafia, followed by two non-votes on mafia players, is not a good look. But if we weren't unsure I'd be more likely to say they're town based on their Scorpious push.

Personally I really do not think I look mafia re the STD push. I was pretty consistent on calling them out from D1 - I noted that the push on Rathe was fake and that they weren't offering particularly genuine contributions to the game in a way that would have been town. No reason Nero couldn't be partnered with them, I don't think, it's just the Scorpious link that makes me a bit morew unsure.

So as I say I think I look really town here, but I'd also struggle to properly push for an elimination of either Rathe or Nero without some proper further discussion. I struggle to see Geraint/Angela as liars in this scenario or Andre as mafia given early exchanges with Scorpious. I may be your best elimination here but can assure you it's most definitely not going to be end of game, and I think you're maybe best taking some time before getting rid of me to deduce who is your best target for D4 on how they've approached me. I think anyone pushing for an immediate and quick elimination when we have lots of time is suspect if not already cleared.

Re how I've played on STD - I called out their push on Rathe being fairly weak and inconsistent in 848 and 862. In 866 I further detailed why I believed this push wasn't particularly genuine and felt like it could be coming from mafia. At this point in the game, if I remember correctly, STD had been kinda quiet and wasn't under too much suspicion. I don't think there's much benefit in mafia continually going after a partner here.

In 871 I pointed out that STD was deflecting away from my line of enquiry instead of just engaging with it naturally, and I stated this again in 875 and 878. Again I think mafia here if they're trying to manufacture an argument just sort of lets this go instead of continually pushing it. Likewise in 879 I pointed out to STD whether they should perhaps evaluate their suspicion for Rathe given nobody else was interested, again I got the sense this wasn't a genuine SR but instead just mafia going through the motions.

In 1257 I voted for STD instead of NM at a point when either of them could have gone out, and when I was going to be offline for the rest of D1. I believe the votes were about split at that point. Again, not what mafia does in this situation.

In 1448 I pointed out that Pooky had suspected STD a bit before elimination and there was a potential link there. In 1752 I pointed out STD's reads were quite dull and could easily come from hesitant mafia.

Again in 1848 I pointed out STD was neglecting to push Rathe despite suspecting them, while STD voted for me instead. In 1852 I then laid out why I thought STD and Andante (now Jackson) might be teammates.

I get this could feasibly be two mafia distancing themselves from each other for late-game, we've not quite been at each other's throats in every second post, but does all of the above read like two teammates? Why was I continually pushing a relatively inactive teammate (hypothetically if you think I'm mafia?) when they were under minimal pressure. Why did I vote for them when the vote was evenly split and they could end up going out? Why did I go back into suspecting them again on D2?

Copying these over for anyone who missed them.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: malcolmtucker

e-1

geraintm is going to check rathe, things remain as outlined to me

Surely Geraint will likely be eliminated in the night though? Suppose you can track though, so eliminating me, checking Rathe and also checking Nero may be a reasonable course of action.

[MalcolmTucker]

Surely Geraint will likely be eliminated in the night though? Suppose you can track though, so eliminating me, checking Rathe and also checking Nero may be a reasonable course of action.

if geraintm is eliminated in the night it confirms the game to me, as only nero cain or rathe could possibly be mafia in that situation and we have two eliminations left after today

Fair, all seems pretty foolproof. Would have liked to have been around for a town win provided there's not some major twist, but happy for you all to oust me if preferred and let the night actions do the talking. As I say, elimination on me, check on both Rathe and Nero should (hopefully) seal it. Don't think either of you two are lying, nor do I think Andre is.

[MalcolmTucker]

Copying these over for anyone who missed them.

i read them; sorry if feels unfair for you to be eliminated here, course of action already accounts for what if nero cain or rathe mafia and also what if geraintm untruthful

i guess you should probably claim as you and andresvmb are the only who haven't unless i somehow missed them

No I completely get it! This strategy seems pretty solid if mafia is in me, Rathe or Nero - pretty much bound to find out the mafia overnight either way if you two do your checks.

I won't claim given I'm VT, and like I said I could make a stronger push on Rathe/Nero, but I'm not fully convinced enough on either to try and railroad a vote through when it might end up being counterproductive to our victory hopes.

[MalcolmTucker]

Cool, only worry would be for town if Geraint goes in the night is, how best to differentiate between Nero/Rathe for final mafia? Which was why I'd have felt prolonging D4 might do some good to try and sort between them. But both are taking a similar line on me and I'm town so you might not get much there. Suppose town can have one more miselim after me too and still win on the final turn.

[MalcolmTucker]

Good luck guys.

[MalcolmTucker]

Nice, well played.

[MalcolmTucker]

A few lessons I've learnt:

The rule on alts felt great and revolutionary to me when designing the setup, but, in practice, it backfired and caused problems for me while modding. I will not reuse it in my next game. I might revisit it in the future, but I promise that I will ensure that no one is taken with it by surprise.

The second prod rule was meant to be a moment for players to stop and think whether they have the time to commit to the game. In practice, it caused a problem when I learnt that not all players read their PMs. So next game this will be discontinued too, and replaced with a simple three strike out.

What was the alt rule? Wasn't aware of this albeit I have none.

[MalcolmTucker]

Funny that Nero was worried in mafia thread about going in too hard on Scorpious, was a great play in the end, without that I think they'd have looked much more obvious.