Newbie 1368 - Will there ever be a title? (GAME OVER)

[homertve]

Hi everyone,

Since I wasn't in the original game, I think I need to introduce myself.

I'm homer. I played this game before (off site) and this is my second game here (the first one is still ongoing after I was NK, so I think we're not allowed to talk about it).

VOTE: Syryana
Because he changed his vote too quickly.

[homertve]

You are quite right. I hate lurking.

Here's my thoughts at this point:

Syryana - He was the second one to vote Grimgroove, and then, right after the third vote to Grimgroove, he pulled his vote and moved it to somene else. Is it because Syryana and Grimgroove are scums? Did Syryana wanted his first vote to be on his scum-pal and then, when he saw a wagon coming he decided it was too risky?

Grimgroove - His RVS was Candillan. He then started a very stupid "yes vs. yup" discussion. If my theory is right, it could be planned by those two in advance.

Candillan - He points out in post 33 how

Syryana

's explaining

Grimgroove

is a scum and then voting

Crand

is odd. I think it's another evidence of Syryana and Grimgroove both being scums. I hope I'm not tunneling here. Anyway, to me Candillan lean town right now.

Crandaja - Votes to Ravenpaw in the RVS stage and then unvotes him. I don't have a read on him yet.

LnGrrrR, Ravenpaw, RachMarie, shaboostein - Didn't say much. I have no clue.

At this time, my vote to Syryana stands.

[homertve]

Syryana - He was the second one to vote Grimgroove, and then, right after the third vote to Grimgroove, he pulled his vote and moved it to somene else. Is it because Syryana and Grimgroove are scums? Did Syryana wanted his first vote to be on his scum-pal and then, when he saw a wagon coming he decided it was too risky?

This isn't the first time someone's scum-read me for having a jumpy vote. If you want, feel free to look at what happened in this game before the reroll; you can see the same behaviors there.

It's not the actual jumpiness, it's the timing. Here you did it right after he got his third vote. Before the reroll you just jumped from one to another (at least in the first three pages that I skimmed over there).

Grimgroove - His RVS was Candillan. He then started a very stupid "yes vs. yup" discussion. If my theory is right, it could be planned by those two in advance.

You have a theory: Grim and I are scum together. However, in reference to this point, you are making the evidence fit the case, rather than making the case fit the evidence. I agree with you that the "yes vs. yup" argument was extremely stupid, but does the exchange between Grim and myself sound forced and planned? What about that exchange makes you think he and I are scum together?

The argue itself doesn't sound planned, but you could plan that you'll argue about something without planning the details.

Candillan - He points out in post 33 how

Syryana

's explaining

Grimgroove

is a scum and then voting

Crand

is odd. I think it's another evidence of Syryana and Grimgroove both being scums. I hope I'm not tunneling here. Anyway, to me Candillan lean town right now.

You are leaning town on Candillan because he pointed out the oddity in my post. Yet in the same post, he says he's leaning town on me for it. Why do you think that is? Also, did you see my reasoning near the bottom of that post as to why I'm voting Crand over Grim?

I don't know why he's leaning town on you. Maybe he needs to answer to that question.

Also, did you see my reasoning near the bottom of that post as to why I'm voting Crand over Grim?

No, I didn't see any reasoning for that. Can you elaborate?

[homertve]

Grimgroove - His RVS was Candillan. He then started a very stupid "yes vs. yup" discussion. If my theory is right, it could be planned by those two in advance.

You have a theory: Grim and I are scum together. However, in reference to this point, you are making the evidence fit the case, rather than making the case fit the evidence. I agree with you that the "yes vs. yup" argument was extremely stupid, but does the exchange between Grim and myself sound forced and planned? What about that exchange makes you think he and I are scum together?

The argue itself doesn't sound planned, but you could plan that you'll argue about something without planning the details.

Then how is our argument different from any other argument that's been had here? Why do you get the impression our argument is planned and others are not?

Call it a hunch.

However, since it's only a hunch, I feel the real issue here is that we have too many silent (or near silent) players, so I'm thinking we should force them to come out from their hideouts. What do you say?

Syryana - Oh, wait, did you mean that in 32 you were referring to Cran in the last paragraph? I thought you were still talking about Grimgroove!

[homertve]

Homer, are you planning on reading the other game?

Do you think I need to do it? Will it give me any information about this game?

[homertve]

Rach, can you share with us some of your reads in this game so far? What do you think on Syryana? What do you think on Grim? Cand? Crand? It seems to me you're not enough involved in this game. Now, I know I didn't say much either, but at least I specified some of my feelings about other players.

[homertve]

Cran,
I think Candillan leans town. His posts seems like he's trying to scumhunt and I have a good feeling about him. Grim and Syryana - as I said earlier I have a feeling they are scum, but after some more posts from them I'm not so sure about that anymore. I don't have a read on you yet, and I do want to know what do you think about these players.

Ravenpaw, why did you unvote Cran?

All the rest - if you don't start posting (and by "posting" I mean "posts with some content"), I'm afraid I'll have to switch my vote to one of you. Right now a wagon on shaboo seems useless cause he has a good chance to be replaced (I think), so I'll have to target another silent player.

[homertve]

I don't find him scummy anymore.

Why not?

Yeah, I asked the original question. "I don't find him scummy anymore" is not a real answer.

You calling me out? You're in my top 3 scumreads now, so first reason why I didn't vote you is because there are alternatives. It's not as if I'm not voting.

Who are your three scumreads now?

[homertve]

I like the way Grim analyzes things. It gets him some town points in my view (BTW, Syryana, where's the scumslip in Grim's post? I can't find it). However, I didn't understand this part:

I find the "of course" part in Candillan calling Homer and Syryana town odd. There's very little that is evident about the statement, unless speaking from the perspective of scum knowing who's town.
Not calling this a slip myself, but I could imagine Syryana's talking about this?

I think the "of course" part is just a reference to a previous post, in which he said this:

I am seriously trying to gather reads, but I've been terrible at it this time around. I do seriously see Homer and Syryana as townie, though. I was leaning town on you, but your jumping on this case is making me doubt that somewhat. It seems a wee bit too convenient.
Also, if you really saw this as being so scummy, why aren't you voting me?

Rach, I'm still waiting for an answer to the question I asked you in 136.

imkingdavid and mkfuba07, welcome! As soon as you catch up, I want to here your thoughts on the game so far.

[homertve]

2. Those odds are extremely low.

Very bad argument indeed.

Why is it a bad argument? He's right. The chances to that

are

slim.

How do you read Ravenpaw?

I forgot to answer this. Answer: I dunno, she's being a lurky-pants.

Fascinating.

What's so fascinating? I feel the same way about her.

[homertve]

Where did the other people go?

I don't know. I think Rach needs a pord.

[homertve]

*prod.

[homertve]

The chance to that is just as slim as any other scumpair. Yet there is a scumpair out there, that's a fact. And that existing pair has just the same odds of happening as me and Candillan being scum together again.

A. He

is

talking about you and him being scumpair again.
B. He's talking about it in a "twice in row" context.

Those

chances are, indeed, slim.

[homertve]

I feel there's more to be said about her besides the lurking. Her reaction to the Crand story. Her non-buddying to Candillan. The reason why I chose this choice of words is that it's also telling how Syryana intends to tunnel on both me and Candillan right now. I don't find that pro-town, and thus, fascinating.

What do

you

think about all that?

[homertve]

Well, it is a slip, although I can't be sure he is, in fact, a scum. If I were in his place, I might slip the same way myself.

About your second question: Actualy, that post seemed very weird to me, because it looks like this:

Also, Grim is very good at appearing reasonable and logical as either alignment.

Scumslip?
How would you know? You only knew me as scum in the previous game, and now you're supposedly assuming I'm scum as well.

So it's seems as though you were talking about yourself. I went and read the op again (216) and understood the whole thing. You are quite right. It's very interesting.

I really wish there were more posts from other people. It's not fun this way...

[homertve]

I'm not buying his explanation. It sounds like someone who's trying to "cover his crimes".

Grimgroove, I'm already voting for Syryana. I think it's a good time for you to switch your vote to him as well.

[homertve]

I'd also like to make yet another additional point on Candillan's supposed scumslip.
What everyone is doing, both town and scum, is somehow conveying the message that they're town, in between the lines. Some are more blunt and state it directly, but that would be showing a certain eagerness to show that you're town that is not appreciated by everone.
Fate has it that this happened in this very topic, on the first page. Candillan stated in caps that he's town this time. Syryana changed his RVS vote (let's assume re-RVS) and said Candillan was too eager to show he's town. Granted, it was a possible RVS and therefore not necessarily a serious motivation, but it could be taken as one. I myself don't find the simple statement "I'm town" convincing at all, and in fact think it has a more scummy aura around it.
Anyway, moving to the "scumslip". Candillan said "I was town that game", Syryana would have preferred "I was town that game, too".
Given the RVS argument, I can easily see Syryana use the wording he supposedly preferred against Candillan just as easily, by saying he's too eager in emphasizing he's town in this game.
This wasn't a scumslip. This was simply Candillan not being over-eager to state he's town (for a change).
Given Syryana used both arguments (though yes, once he used it in RVS), it seems like he's betting on any horse that could get Candillan lynched, even if they're running in opposite directions.

Very interesting observation.

Liking imkingdavid's entry post.

Me too.

[homertve]

My point here is, though you have made a few mentions of what you find scummy in Candillan, you have made no move to push his wagon or pursue that read. It is especially noticeable when Candillan makes what is (in my opinion)

the scummiest post in the game

, #199, you don't even glance at it twice, instead concentrating on me pretty much to exclusion of all else until I directly ask you to look at it. That's why I feel your scumread on Candillan is not genuine.

Why do you think it's "the scummiest post in the game"? I think at this point you are trying to deflect us from your scumslip to other's supposed scumslips.

I liked the way David analyzed things. I think your 289 is you trying to cover your not-so-honest mistakes and I don't think you are a "dumb" or "idiot". I think you're just a scum.

What is it with all these replacements requests in this game? Is it normal?

[homertve]

So I'll ask for the opinion of others... does this actually prove Grim is confirmed town or am I missing something?

Can you explain again why do you think it confirms him as town? I reread that part in your post and couldn't understand the jump from "it doesn't prove he's a scum" to "it proves he's town".

[homertve]

By that logic, it makes sense to me to assume that if he was scum he would not have tried to point out Crand's original "scum tell" (the whole "darling" thing). If he would not have done that as scum, I find it easy to make the logical leap that because he did it, he probably isn't scum. After all, I can find no scum motive behind doing it, and as is stated in my quote, doing it as scum would be suicidal.

Maybe at that point he didn't think about it and only afterwards he figured out that what he said was suicidal. What you are saying is reasonable and by now you and me both think he's town (Occam's razor?), But from that to a complete conftown there's a long way (well, maybe not that long. But it is a way).

[homertve]

My dilemma is of course I know with an almost 100 percent certainty that one of my two reads so far has to be wrong, because I can't see Syryana and Candillan being in one scumteam. But I find arguments against both compelling enough to have them in my scumreads regardless.

Can you elaborate on that? I don't understand why do you think they can't both be scums?

When I flip town, who will be your scumreads?

First, you mean "if", not "when".
Second - Well, I do have other suspects as I already said before and there are other players to consider, such as shaboostein / mkfuba07, or rach, that didn't answer to what I asked her on 136 for example. Also, she almost didn't say anything about anyone except david.

I somehow find Syryana's defense strangely convincing, despite the lack of actual arguments. It just sounds very genuine. Not really sure what to make of that.

Woah, that's a total 180 from your mega-post. I have to think about that for awhile.

[homertve]

My dilemma is of course I know with an almost 100 percent certainty that one of my two reads so far has to be wrong, because I can't see Syryana and Candillan being in one scumteam. But I find arguments against both compelling enough to have them in my scumreads regardless.

Can you elaborate on that? I don't understand why do you think they can't both be scums?

I think given the way they have acted towards each other it's quite difficult to defend the idea they're in a scumteam together. They put up quite a row among the two of them that went far beyond possible bussing. Let me know if you disagree and why.

Well, I can't remember exactly their interaction. When I'll have some time, I'll try to read that again.

[homertve]

@homertve, what are your thoughts on LnGrrrR?

I have a good feeling about him. I can't explain exactly why, but I did like the things he said back on 186 about the yes/yep debate. Right now he is in my "possibly-town" pile.

[homertve]

Ok, I think you are referring to the "I was town that game" scumslip, right, Grim?

Well, I can see how they both scum, and one of them (Syryana) is trying to buss(*) the other one (Candillan). It wasn't a great attack to begin with ("I was town that game" as opposed to "I was town that game too") and he did thought at that time he caught you in another scumslip, so he would have the chance to divert his vote to you. I'm not saying they both have to be scum together, but IMO it is a possibility. Is it too far fetched?

--------
(*) - I hope I'm using the term "buss" in the right context. It

is

only my second game on this site.

[homertve]

Oh, and rach.

You don't have time to answer to our questions, but you

do

have time for a history lesson. I don't like that.

[homertve]

Who are your "other suspects" and why? I'm assuming you are not including {shaboo/mkfuba, Rach} in the list given the structure of the sentence.

I had to think about your question for awhile. I've come to realize that I

had

some suspects before, but now I can't be sure. At the beginning of this game I thought you and Grim are scums, but now I don't think Grim is your scumbody. I didn't like some of Crandaja's statements, but his successor (David) seems town to me right now. At some point, I had my suspicion about candi, but after rereading some of the things I didn't like and his recent posts I don't think that anymore.

Basically, there are only three players I have some concerns about them.

1. You.

2. Ravenpaw's slot. She wasn't involve in the game and when she did post, she did it perfunctory (155, for example). She did asked to be replaced and I guess she doesn't have time for this game and maybe it's the reason her answers where so insufficient, but her replacement didn't say much either so far.

3. Rach. She doesn't say almost anything. She doesn't answer to any of the questions that she's been asked over and over. She doesn't share any of her reads. She isn't scum hunting at all.

I ask you this: Assuming I am scum and Candillan is my partner, why would I attempt to bus him on Day 1, particularly when he's not in any particular danger of being lynched?

Good point, although I guess in this game things can change in a heartbeat, right?

[homertve]

VOTE: Rach

You keep ignoring this game. Maybe you need a little wagon...

[homertve]

At last, some content from Rach. Thanks. I think overall I liked your post. The fact you gave us your reads is itself reassuring. For now, I think I'll move my vote back to where it were before.

VOTE: Syryana

[homertve]

homer - Can you re-explain your reasons for voting Syr? Just from skimming your iso, you vote Syr during RVS and never change it until just now when you voted Rach and then moved it back to Syr.
Also, you name your top three as Rach (for active lurking), Raven (for lurking), and Syr (I don't see reasons in my skim but I may have missed them). What are your thoughts on a Candi lynch?

As I said in my 252, I think Syr's scumslip is pretty convincing, while his explanation isn't. He said that "Grim is very good at appearing reasonable and logical as either alignment" while he only saw him playing as scum. It seems like he's a scum knowing for a fact that Grim is town this time. That's why he's my main suspect at this time.

Also, as I said on 366, at this time I don't think Candi is a scum and I think we shouldn't lynch him today. Would you consider a lynch on Syr?

I like Candillan's case on LnGrrrR

Can you explain to me that case and why do you think it's a good one?

If you ask me which lynch would be the most interesting, I'd say it would have to be among the Candillan-LnGrrrR duo.

Something in this sentence gives me a bad feeling. Shouldn't we go for a "good" lynch rather than an "interesting" one?

I'd like to ask everyone to give their opinion on Candillan and LnGrrrR specifically at this stage.

I think I need to ISO both of them more carefully for that, yet I don't have time to do it today. I will however try to do it as soon as possible.

[homertve]

I reread the "Candillan vs. LnGrrrR (and vice-versa)" thing and the more I think about it, it seems to me like a case of two towns tunneling each other. I can't explain exactly why. They both have "cases" on each other, but they both seem to climb on a tall tree, which they can't (or won't, if one of them is actually scum) climb down from. It doesn't seem to me like a master plan of a scum trying to mislynch the other (but I could be wrong). However, if I have to choose between the two of them, I'd say LnGrrrR seems to me more calculated and dispassionate, which in my eyes seems less townie as Can's behaviour (which is somehow desperate), but again, I think there are more chances they both town.

Good to see Bane getting back into the game.

Well, he isn't back. He just dropped by to say hello and vanished again.

[homertve]

If you all have me as scum Im obviously not doing the job I should be as town, so Id at least like to help in some way.

For the record, I didn't think you are scum, so there was no need for that role claim.

[homertve]

Some crazy hour

Well, it sounds to me like three people not understanding each other. Or perhaps, if my theory about Syryana being a cum is correct, like two confused people (you and LnGrrrR) with one motivated scum trying to make you want to lynch the other one.

Grim, at this point we are in a not-so-happy crossroad: Two (three?) nonactive slots, only two days before DL, and with your trip, we can make a terrible mistake and lynch an innocent townie. Since at this time we both think (at least I do) each other to be town, I think we need to work together, at least until the end of this day, to choose wisely.

Earlier, I said I have three suspects: Syryana, Ravenpaw's / Bane's slot, Rach. Since Rach did told us her reads (finally), and lynching Bane's slot will give us nothing, I suggest you would at least consider voting Syryana. David already said he would go for this lynch. What do you say? I know he was on your scum pile, at least before this:

I somehow find Syryana's defense strangely convincing, despite the lack of actual arguments. It just sounds very genuine.

So, what do you say?

[homertve]

My previous post was regarding this:

What do you think about the events on page 18?

[homertve]

I'm not exactly thinking the straightest in the world right now teehee

This is exactly why I think we can get nothing by trying to learn anything from the events of page 18.

[homertve]

I understand.

Any idea for a solution? David? Other players?

[homertve]

I think his behaviour wasn't scummy at any point of this day and I really liked this post:

Besides the yep vs yes argument, which felt extremely forced and somewhat scummy, Grim has been acting in a very townie way for the reasons listed above. (I'm willing to accept Grims yes vs yep argument as non-scummy because a) I believed him when he stated he felt like there was a legitimate difference between the two; the explanation didnt feel forced even if the original "gotcha" was, and b) he pointed out last game that he started a semi-dumb conversation to get out of RVS (the "color" thing with Rach) which mirrors the forced arguments in this game early.)

It feels like a player who's trying to read people.

[homertve]

Unofficial Vote Count (I hope I'm not wrong) -

LnGrrrR (4): Candillan, Grimgroove, Syryana, imkingdavid
Candillan (3): LnGrrrR, RachMarie, mothrax
Syryana (1): homertve
Not voting: mkfuba0

[homertve]

Or should it be:

LnGrrrR (4): Candillan, Grimgroove, Syryana, imkingdavid
Candillan (3): LnGrrrR, RachMarie, mothrax
Syryana (1): homertve
Not voting: Core_H86

[homertve]

What I am about to do, I do not because I particularly suspect LnG, but because we need a lynch, and if I don't do this, I don't see how we're going to get a lynch. I am going to put him at L-1 and I expect no one to hammer until either 1) he provides his defense and we have some time to talk about it, or 2) we get too close to deadline for it to matter if he says anything.

LnG, personally, I do not suspect you at this moment, but it seems other players here wants to hear your defense, which you didn't provide yet.

@Mod, do we get an extension? I think we should.

[homertve]

Candi - I know you think LnGrrrR is scum. Who do you think his partner is?

[homertve]

mothrax - David said he would vote for Syryana.

[homertve]

Syr -

1. Up until this moment (with your post) I didn't think I was tunnelling you. You are right, that's exactly what I'm doing, and your post did give me my doubts about you. I'm starting to understand Grim's feelings about you being genuine. I hope I'm not making a mistake about these new feelings about you.

2. For now, and since I want to think about it a little longer -
UNVOTE: Syr

3. I never said Rach's reads made me stop suspecting her. I think that her explanations to her absence earlier in the game were good. That's all.

[homertve]

What do you think of Rach now?

I really don't know.

I said I wanted to think about it a little longer, and I did. Here are my thoughts.

We don't have much time. We need to decide between these options:

1. Lynch LnGrrrR.
2. Lynch Syryana.
3. Lynch Candillan.
4. Try another wagon.

Options 1 and 2

:
Both LnG and Syr claimed themselves to be VT. Lynching either of them will give us at least something to work with tomorrow. I know I said before that Syr leans scum, but I'm not so sure about it now, whereas my feelings about LnG is quite null at this time. Either way, if Candi is our Doc, he'll probably get NK.

Option 3

:
If he's the doc, he'll be dead either way. If we lynch him we'll give the scum a different target, and maybe they'll get lucky and NK another PR. That's not good.

Option 4

:
There have been three claims already. It gives too much information to the scums. I don't think it's a good idea to do that.

What do you think? (and by "you" I mean everybody else, and not just Syr)

[homertve]

Who do you think is the scummiest?

If you had asked me that three hours ago, my answer was Syr. Now I really can't say. I want to hear other people on that subject.

[homertve]

Well, that's too bad. I had a feeling that Candy-Land is town.

I think I'll go with my instincts this time.

VOTE: Syryana

[homertve]

bad form to what?

[homertve]

It would be pretty dumb to jail you even if there is a JK. Jailing you might save your life, but it makes you basically useless as jail is a roleblock. Better to try to jail the killer IMO.

Syr, I disagree with you on that. Now, maybe it's because I'm new here (this is only my second game here), but if we have a JK in this game, and he would jail Candy, last night kill was prevented and our doctor was still alive. I understand what you are saying, but the bottom line of that is that if he would jail Candy we were in a better place right now, wouldn't we?

[homertve]

Here's the thing though. Let's assume the JK jails Candi, and the scum attempts to kill Candi. Candi remains alive today. However, Candi is unable to use protection (hohoho) and the scum knows the JK is likely to jail him again the following night, giving scum free reign for other kills while the Doctor remains useless(thanks to the jail) and the JK is useless (due to tying up the Doc).

"the scum knows the JK is likely to jail him again the following night" - why? I didn't say "jail candy on night 2 as well". It's not wise to do

that

. Jail him only on night 1, cause that's the night he'll most likely get the NK.

What "case" do you have against me, exactly? Yesterday I said I think both candy and LnG are town. And guess what? I was right. I unvoted you not because I thought you were town all of a sudden, but because I thought it's a good idea to re-think about it. I did. I think you are scum. Therefore I'm voting you. I know I could be tunneling again, and I really hope that's not the case and that my instincts are right.

Where are the other players? I want to hear them. There are at least two (maybe three) players that shared my feelings yesterday about you being a scum. What do you think now?

[homertve]

Also - where are the people who said we can learn something from LnG's lynch? What did we learn? Was it a good lynch?

[homertve]

Which sounds to me like he's trying to distance himself from it. Sure, he was never on the LnG wagon, but this whole "where at the people" bit following the previous bit I quoted, combined with him unvoting Syr before a lynch could be made just feels fishy to me. Feels to me like either he and Syr or scum and he's trying to distance himself without fully bussing Syr, or else he's scum with someone else and is trying to make himself sound good by distancing himself from the lynch wagon that he was at the very least in agreement with allowing to happen.

Of course I'll "allow" that lynch to "happen". I wouldn't go for a NL beacuse that's not good for the town. The "at least something to work with" remark was just that - I wanted to here what those who were on LnG's wagon (which I wasn't one of them) will say after his lynch, and that way we can "work with"

those

posts. However, nobody said anything about it yet (or at least nothing significant. No, "we learned that he's town" doesn't count).

the only way we were going to get a lynch was to either hope that he suddenly came back and put Syr at L-1 and hope that someone else decides to hammer, or else go ahead and take the sure lynch that we ended up taking.

It sounds like you are trying to justify the lynch. I (nor anybody else) wasn't accusing you that it was a bad lynch at those circumstances.

With that being the only problem I can remember having with Syr during Day 1

It's not the only problem with Day-1-Syr. The main problem with him (at least for me) is his scumslip here:

Also, Grim is very good at appearing reasonable and logical as either alignment.

[homertve]

However, I want to talk about another thing.

Day 2 began two and a half days ago. Seven of us left. While Grim, David, Syr and me were actually talking about this game, we have these three:

1. Core - Said nothing significant, or as Grim said:

ok now that we're here how was that a good end to day 1? what makes it so bad to have a no lynch?

I don't like this post at all. Productivity zero.

VOTE: Core_H86

2. mothrax - The only think she had to say was about the way I didn't bemoan the night kill. Again - Productivity zero.

3. RachMarie - Said nothing specific about this game. Talked only about why NL on day 1 is never a good thing.

What if Syr is actually town? If two of those three are the scums, they would sit back, enjoy the mutual accusations between me and him (and the suspects David has about both of us) and continue to make posts without an actual content. I already said earlier in this game (366) that I have three suspects - Syr, mothrax and Rach. You can add Core to that list and maybe give Syr the benefit of the doubt for now.

I think I'll just
UNVOTE: Syr
VOTE: Core

[homertve]

2. mothrax - The only think she had to say...

Should be "the only

thing

", of course.

[homertve]

David, the fact I was voting Syr the whole time is merely a coincidence. I vote him in my first post here when I thought him unvoting Grim was because they were both scums. I dropped that idea after that, and simply didn't unvote him up to where he made his scumslip, and then I wanted to vote him again, and found out I actually didn't unvote him. That's all.

Syr, I would also like to know why do you think Core is town.

[homertve]

I vote him in my first post

Should be "I

voted

him", of course. Sorry.

[homertve]

I'm getting fairly confident again in my Syryana scumread.

Why?

[homertve]

Don't be lazy Homer, come on

Did I miss something?

[homertve]

Oh, wait. This?

Already in post 589 he had you in his town reads, never explaining why.
Seems he's trying to build up some strange connection with you. Buddying? Through reverse psychology trying to tell us he's definitely not your scumbuddy? Or try to imply that you are his scumbuddy?
Whatever it is, it is obvous there is some tactic behind him calling you town like that, and I don't like it.

[homertve]

Completed games I have with Syr:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=26894 Town, Global Watcher

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=27202 Town VT (no PRs in this setup except for the gun bearer).

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p4891830 Replaces into a scum slot This link starts you on pg 60 where he replaced in.

I realize it is still a small sample, but his play in this game reminds me much more of his play when he was scum and not how he played as town.

I don't like these (sort of) posts. First of all, it's meta. One player can change his game style from one game to another, even if he had the same alignment in both of them. Secondly, I'm not going to read three full games now, so I can't (or won't) really check you on that.

[homertve]

Look at this:

I still don't like Syr's tunnel vision on Grim and Candi. One can argue that Syr's complete 180 in attitude once I pointed out his error is scummy because the "I'm stupid" bit becomes an AtE, but then again, what else are you going to do in that situation at this point, whether as town or scum?

With that being the only problem I can remember having with Syr during Day 1, sure I could still potentially support his lynch, but not before taking a look at some alternatives. Such as yourself.

At this point, David thinks Syr's

only problem

is his "180".

I replied to that on this post:

With that being the only problem I can remember having with Syr during Day 1

It's not the only problem with Day-1-Syr. The main problem with him (at least for me) is his scumslip here:

Also, Grim is very good at appearing reasonable and logical as either alignment.

...and suddenly he doesn't think it's the only problem with syr:

My suspects at this time are 1. Syr (scum slip followed by 180 degree change in attitude/tone), 2. homer (see #659), and 3. core (see #672).

I'm not so sure what to think about it. I took some time to figure that out, so I went and read again his earlier posts in the game, and stumbled across this:

VOTE: Syr
(for the scum slip bit, which I’m not too pleased with)

So, it seems that after syr's scumslip he voted him for that, although he wasn't "too pleased with" it, then (day 2, first quote of this post) he forgot all about it, and then, after I reminded him of it, syr's becomes David's no.1 suspect again, due to his "

scum slip

followed by 180 degree..."

David, can you explain those inconsistencies?
Other players, what do you think about that?

[homertve]

What else I find strange about this "agreement" is the way it was reached: eventhough imkingdavid claims a clear preference towards lynching Syryana, the plan he suggests to RachMarie seems very contra-intutive given that stance.

I remember thinking the same way. However, from their PoV, hours before the deadline, they were both voting Syr. Both Syr and Linger were on (L-2), so the only way - again from their PoV, hours before DL - the only way to get a lynch was to hammer LnG. That's why I dropped that idea.

The "David not talking about Rach" thing is pretty interesting, but I want to check it myself.

[homertve]

I don't like the situation we are in now:

[*] - Core didn't say a word in three days.
[*] - mothrax didn't say anything meaningful since this day began.
[*] - David is not answering my question.
[*] - Rach has a case against Syr solely for his meta.

It is quite impossible to draw conclusions as most players (four out of seven) say so little.

Grim, I agree with you, and since my vote on a player who might get replaced is not effective, I think I'll go for it.

UNVOTE: Core_H86
VOTE: RachMarie

Rach is at L-1. Please don't hammer without a good reason.

[homertve]

and

[homertve]

It's a cursed game.

[homertve]

Core, if you are here now, can you tell us something meaningful? What do you think about what I said about David? What do you think about Moth's evasive posts?

[homertve]

With at least 3 inactives and 1 person asking for replacement, we've got more than half of the crew not here, there's not much left to be done for those who are here, is there?
Not even taking account of the fact that all these replacements are not making it easier to read slots, making this a very scumsided game if you ask me.

I agree with you.

However, I want to try and analyze the six slots in the game (other than me) -

1.

Grimgroove

- very active, always trying to move the game forward. I believe he's town and I hope he's town.

2.

Syryana

- was my main suspect on day 1. I still didn't dropped the idea that he's scum, but at least he's here, and, well, I guess I could be absolutely wrong about him and he could be town.

3.

imkingdavid

- when he just entered the game, he had a big "I'm town" reading from almost all of us. My suspicion towards him started with his "

the only problem I can remember having with Syr during Day 1

" remark, to which he never answered. However, I do believe that his decision to leave the game has nothing to do with his role here. It's very difficult to read this slot, in my opinion.

4.

RachMarie

- she's at L-1 now and she has a new computer. She needs to start playing the game now. No more excuses.

5.

mothrax

- I will say it again. She - didn't - say - anything - since - this - day - started. It's very anti-town to behave like this.

6.

Core_H86

- Anti-town? Core is the definition of anty-town-behaviour. He wasn't here for more than three days, then he popped to say nothing and vanished again.

[homertve]

homertve has been prodded.

*Sigh*

[homertve]

Well that's balls. For a chance to read and comment and the site went down...

how convenient.

[homertve]

Site is back up, but I had mod stuffs to do plus working on catching up on work that I got behind on while sharing a computer.


Will get to this tomorrow

Still waiting.

[homertve]

There are seven players alive right now.

Active

:
1. Grimgroove.
2. Syryana.
3. Myself.

Recently active

4. Core_H86 (you)

Super-slim Activity

5. RachMarie.
6. mothrax.

Needs a replacment

7. imkingdavid.

[homertve]

I don't think it's a good idea.

[homertve]

We can restart this game again, calling it "Newbie 1368 - There will never be a title nor an ending"

[homertve]

Homer, you seem to have syr as scum. Yet you are preferring Rach over him why?

1. Please read my 735 (The question David never answered was in my 713).

2. This game has been inactive for a long long time. I do have syr on my scum list (or at least I did). The reason I changed my vote can be found in my 664.

3. mothrax is a non-active player and she has no excuse for not saying

anything

during day 2.

4. About Rach, she's on L-1 for a very long time and never say

anything

about it. That is not something you can dismiss by "oh, it's just Rach being Rach".

[homertve]

Stop saying that "lurking" is the only thing we've got on her. Read

This.

[homertve]

Also, Grim is very good at appearing reasonable and logical as either alignment.

I would like to point out Syryana's own scumslip in post 222, where he claims that I'm able to appear reasonable as either alignment. Given he only saw me as confscum, it's as if he's implying I'm conftown here in this phrase. Only scum would know I'm town but not treat me as such.

[homertve]

Grim, remember this?

Ok, so I've ISO'd imkingdavid in a glimpse after all. One of the most striking things: ever since his 398 he has completely lost sight of RachMarie, even though she was his main scumread before that. And when I say completely, I do mean completely. The only notable interaction between them is the agreement on hammering LnGrrrR. What else I find strange about this "agreement" is the way it was reached: eventhough imkingdavid claims a clear preference towards lynching Syryana, the plan he suggests to RachMarie seems very contra-intutive given that stance.
I invite everyone to look at their interactions and share their thoughts. One thing about associative tells is that you cans ee them between any two persons if you try hard enough, so I want to hear your thoughts before convincing myself of this actually being something worth delving into.

I went and check it myself. Look at this:

I am considering placing Rach at L-1 tomorrow. Or if someone else beats me to it, I will consider hammering a little closer to deadline.

However, after that, although mentioning her on a few occasions, David had dropped the idea of hammering her and never talked about it again. Add that to enomis's bluntly defense on Rach, and you get a very suspicious picture on both of them.

enomis, I'm really trying to figure you out. I'm trying to give you town-points but it seems that the only thing that you "see" here is Rach's pain and how it's difficult for her. I really sympathize her condition but from this game PoV it seems she is not even trying. Maybe she's town, I don't know, but even if she is, she doesn't play for her win condition, she isn't helping town and she only started posting some content after you entered the game (ie, in the last couple of days).

I want to add one more thing about you, enomis. I really have a feeling that you didn't read throughout all these thirty-something pages. Maybe you skimmed through, but you didn't read every single word. Am I wrong here?

[homertve]

Eno, I don't like the fact you didn't read (or even skimmed!) the first 25 pages. Yes, I can understand that replacing in on page 30 (+/-) is a very difficult task. I, myself, replaced in a few games, but I took the time to read every single post. You know who doesn't need to read every little bit of information in a mafia game? A scum, because he knows the alignment of every player in the game.

[homertve]

And yet you say you didn't say rach or syr are town. Contradicting yourself?

Where is the contradiction?

[homertve]

Majiffy, how does this -

David and Rach both claimed preference for a Syr lynch over an LGR lynch and yet... quickwagon?

Both of you have a lot of explaining to do ASAP.

- fits with that:

Ok my final reads are such:
I have strong

town

reads on

Homer, Eno.

(David and Eno are the same slot)

[homertve]

enomis, I tried to understand the logic in your "case" against core, but as much as I want to, I can't understand it.

He has a "Scum-triangle". Obv., he doesn't think all three are scum. Obv., if one will flip scum

or

town, it would change his thoughts on the other two. I don't really see any contradiction hear. I read your 882 more than twice and it still doesn't convince me his triangle case is scummy. You do imply that he sees Syr as town where he doesn't say so anywhere. He never said he thinks Syr is town. he suspects him. However, he thinks that if you'll flip town he'll know syr is scum and vice-versa. Here:

eno screams scum to me
and if he flips town i know tomorrow syrana is scum

[homertve]

I don't really see any contradiction

hear

*Here.

[homertve]

Really?

That's

your case? It's very very weak.

Why is it valid only if Rach and Syr is town?

[homertve]

enomis, either I don't understand you or you don't understand me (or you are scum and you

choose

not to understand me).

[Not (Rach and Syr are town)]

is not equal to

[(Rach and Syr are scum)].

What core is saying is this:
If you flip town, then Syr is probably scum. The second scum is somebody else.
if you flip scum, then Rach is probably the second scum.

Now explain to me what's wrong with that argument.

[homertve]

Then how is this a case on why i am scummy? He used this as a case and voted me. So obv, he must have either of them have town to be able to use this case to say why i am scummy.

And no, if i flip scum, he said Rach is town because i defend her to "whiteknight" and thus earn a buddy.

No, Core's case on you is 1. you defending a lurker on L-1 is an attempt to get a little town cred, and 2. Jumping on the closest wagon (ayr).

He also said that he thinks there's a partnership between you and Rach, whether it's one sided or not.

[homertve]

eno's has a closed and targeted mind on syrana, considering the play with rach and his insistence to get rach to throw out a read on syrana i get the sense of a partnership wether it's onesided or not.
I see scum motivation in the direction of his play
1 stop the lynch of a lurker at L1 get a little town cred and a buddy
2jump to the closest band wagon (syrana)and push it to the lynch

[homertve]

I never said I think it's strong. That's why I'm not moving my vote from Rach to you yet. But I do think you are way over-defending her and doing it in a strange way.

[homertve]

I wanted to pressure her, yes. However she didn't respond to that at all. For days and days. Which made her look even more suspicious in my eyes. Grim showed you examples of her behavior on other games at the same time she was silent here.

Don't say i never read the game. I had skimmed abit here and here

It's not enough.

[homertve]

Yes, I did, and I didn't find them convincing. Grim's examples was far more convincing.

[homertve]

Calm down? Why do you need to tell me to calm down? Did I do anything that gave you any reason to think I'm agitated or something?

Regardless, I don't think we can speak about those examples since they are about ongoing games (Correct me if I'm wrong), So I can't answer your question.

[homertve]

Enomis, at this point, can you give me a full read on everybody?

[homertve]

So you have three people leaning scum. Of those three, who do you find the most scummiest? and why?

[homertve]

You are trying to drag me into talking about ongoing games. I'm not going to do that. I'll just say this:

The examples you gave weren't good. At those games she did post game-related-posts at the same time she was silent here.

[homertve]

That's for her to explain. She didn't even try.

[homertve]

If there was a wagon on me, and I was on L-1, and I couldn't post here, I wouldn't behave the way she did. She had to either replace herself (no, that crap about replacing IC is not valid) or at least try to explain herself. It's weird to say the least. Even now, after she did have some content, she is not trying to explain her blunt oversight of the state she were in (L-1, for a long time).

Oh, and by the way, your tail is on fire.

[homertve]

I think I don't like any of it.

When I joined MS, I did it to have fun. People like Majiffy is taking the fun out of the game, and although I don't like his game style, I don't think he's scum. I might be wrong here, though. When I'm looking at that slot it is very difficult to have a serious read due to all the people that came by and play that slot (Ravenpaw -> Bane -> mothrax -> Majiffy). I didn't like the way mothrax was dodging when she had that slot, but I didn't see it coming from a scum PoV.

About enomis - Again, it's hard to say if it's coming from a town PoV or a scum PoV. I don't like the fact that he didn't read the whole game (and BTW, Majiffy at least gives me the feeling he

did

read the whole game) and I don't like the way he keeps saying Rach's game is the same in other games and the way he keeps defending her. True, he is trying to ask questions, but it doesn't seem like genuine attempt to scumhunt. It seems as though he's trying to get some town points by appearing like he's scum hunting. Do you get what I mean?

[homertve]

Rach, where are you?

[homertve]

@Homer: Did you or did you not see Rach's flip in one of the game where she is lynched. That is all i will say. I can't really discuss about ongoing game so let's just call this point gut.

I did see one of those flips.

[homertve]

You see, enomis? This is exactly what she did two weeks (or so) ago. She was in L-1 and didn't say anything. She is doing the same right now.

If she doesn't show up in the next 6-7 hours, someone should hammer.

[homertve]

BTW, Rach is posting everywhere on this site in the last 24 hours. She's just ignoring this game. Again, just like before.

6 hours.

[homertve]

However GG town you found scum

Woohoo!

[homertve]

I'm reading enomis as town now by the way. His L-1 on Rach was crucial to getting her lynched, the alternative could have easily ended up in a stalemate with nobody the wiser.

About that - I don't see it that way at all. I see it as bussing. I think that if he wouldn't do that, we could lynch her anyway with Majiffy's or core's help (if I'm right about enomis being Rach's scum partner. If not, we could have done it with one of them). At that point he knew they were losing the battle, and that long post could give him some town points, which it did, btw, at least in Grim's book.

Also, I don't like his NL plan. It gives the remaining scum another shot at us, with him being safe of a lynch. And if we do get lucky again tonight (in case of a misslynch), it will give us another possibility for a misslynch.

VOTE: enomis

[homertve]

Let's say we do that. Let's say I agree with your logic.

Scenario 2:
... ...
Well this is the worst scenario.

How does it help us?

Scenario 3: Majiffy kill Grimgroove night 3.
Well, theres nothing we can do. Also one of the worse scenario.

How does

that

help us?

Scenario 4: Majiffy kill Homer night 3
Jail keeper out themselves. this gives us two innocents.

What? Why? And again: What? How will it give us two innocents? What prevents Majiffy himself to say he's JK at that point?

I'm sorry, but I can't follow your logic.

[homertve]

What prevents Majiffy himself to say he's JK at that point?

Oh, wait. I think I understand now. At that point the scum still doesn't know if there's a chance of a cop. But it's true only if he chose to NK last night. If he tried to kill someone, he knows for a fact that there's a JK.

[homertve]

I'm with grim here.

enomis, Syr is not suggesting a no-lynch today. He's suggesting a no-lynch tomorrow in case there will be a nightkill tonight.

[homertve]

I don't object. I just can't see the point. Too many unknown variables.
And I still think you are scum.

Pedit: Again, that won't be true if there will be a NK tonight as well.

[homertve]

Like scum would NK again to give us two free mislynches.

I did

not

say

that

. There can be a NK if there was a JK and he jails the right person again.

[homertve]

1. The way you don't want to read the first 30 pages of the game.
2. The way you defended rach and then bassed her.
3. The way you are trying to come up with some crazy plans so we can think about that and not see the very truth that is right there under our noses.

SCUM!

[homertve]

Core still didn't say a word since this day began. I want to hear from him before I'll say what I think about him.

About Majiffy - I want to read his posts again.

[homertve]

Prior experience with Rach, knowing her mannerisms and the way she thinks. Her early posting in this game seemed more like her town game than her scum game.

Be more specific.

I'll fetch quotes tomorrow. I have to be up in 4 hours and do a number of things I am not physically in the mood to do. One of which being your mother.

I was rereading these quotes and realised he never gave any examples. It is somewhat redundant to ask for those examples now, but is seems very odd that he didn't do it at that time (while he still had enough time to do it). I'm still not convinced he's her partner, though.

[homertve]

Core, what do you think after rach's flip?

[homertve]

Something enomis said, made me think about this:

(before the flip):

enomis scum
Majiffy: to much of a dick to be scum, scum would have more of a filter than that

so back to my triangle

if rach=town syrana /may or may not/ = scum enomis =scum

if rach=scum enomis = scum

syrana =town

(after the flip):

not trying toflake just catching up

still leaning majiffy/enomis

syrana is confirmed town to me, and sorry i have 5 kids and work would have dropped the hammer i was just trying to give rach a chance to claim, just glad to see the lynch go through

Why did you change your "if rach is town, her partner is enomis" to "maybe it's majiffy" when you also said majiffy is "to much of a dick to be scum"?

VOTE: Core_H86

[homertve]

Does not warrant a vote

Why don't you let him answer that?

[homertve]

I think it's a classic scum behaviour. He came up with that triangle theory to show he's trying to find scum, but then he realises that he needs a backup plan because there's only one other person who think enomis is scum, so he "suspects" someone else.

Also, he wasn't voting to rach when we lynched her and he's already your second choice for a lynch, right?

[homertve]

i added majiffy to my list as possible scum one for his douchness

No, that's not true. You never added him for his douchness. You just said you would lynch him just for being a douch, even though you

don't

think he's scum.

[homertve]

Grim, can you explain again your case on majiffy? (You can either explain it again or refer me to the relevant post)

Also, I do not think we're on L-1.

@mod, can we get a vote count?

[homertve]

what mistake cant i just play how i play the game does evolve as you learn new things

Tell me one new thing you learn to make you suspect Majiffy.