WWF Mafia: Royal Rumble (GAME OVER)

[Leonshade]

VOTE: Chickadee

[Leonshade]

@Titus:

Why did you "mildly TR" me noticing your joke?

Chickadee's the best wagon at the moment, I didn't like her reaction to the early wagon. She seemed more interested in placating the wagon on her than figuring out the people on it.

I don't like PV questioning Chara about pointing out L-1, it's a common practice and PV should know that. Not wanting an accidental lynch =/= not wanting a lynch.

[Leonshade]

@Titus:

Why did you "mildly TR" me noticing your joke?

Chickadee's the best wagon at the moment, I didn't like her reaction to the early wagon.

She seemed more interested in placating the wagon

on her than figuring out the people on it.

I don't like PV questioning Chara about pointing out L-1, it's a common practice and PV should know that. Not wanting an accidental lynch =/= not wanting a lynch.

Why wouldn't I be? With so few people in the ring it doesn't take much to get a majority.

There's a good chance there's already scum in the ring, but there's also still a pretty big chunk of players on even in here yet. Scum is probably sitting back laughing, because they get to lurk until they're called.

Because placating the people on your wagon, without trying to figure out their motivations, suggests that you only care about not being lynched. You said you didn't take the other thread seriously, but you haven't expressed an opinion on anyone's alignment in this topic, either.

I don't like PV questioning Chara about pointing out L-1, it's a common practice and PV should know that. Not wanting an accidental lynch =/= not wanting a lynch.

I guess my main point with the L-1 comment is that if you don't want an accidental lynch, why not unvote yourself?

Esp. at this point in the game. It's not like deadline voting where a no-lynch might happen.

A question for Chara to answer, not me, but I don't agree that not wanting an accidental lynch means you unvote. A vote is a statement, and an unvote is generally associated with changing your mind on the lynch. People like to use their vote to show who they want lynched.

[Leonshade]

Can you tell me if anything happened in the "dead" chat since I left?

I don't remember when you left, but the activity slowed down after the initial burst. I don't remember anything major.

One thing DodgeTheSaint said in the thread pinged me, he expressed a TR on Titus in a way that seemed self-conscious of the read being (in his mind) unpopular. Him following it up with "would anyone mind telling me I'm wrong" pinged me.

[Leonshade]

Damn chickadee is bleeding Town.

VOTE: Titus

Explain.

Why do you TR Chickadee?

My vote for Chickadee has nothing to do with Chara's original reasons for voting Chickadee. It was Chickadee's reaction to the wagon and her general lack of opinions that I SR'd, as I've explained. Attributing the entire reasoning behind the wagon to the reasons of the first voter is wrong, it's not like everyone else went "sheeping Chara".

Titus:

Is RC correct that they've been reading you perfectly in recent history?

hey lookie mathblade has entered the ring

VOTE: mathblade

I'm not going to let you do your ninja act after Code Geass. Why are you voting for MathBlade?

[Leonshade]

@Titus:

Why did you "mildly TR" me noticing your joke?

Chickadee's the best wagon at the moment, I didn't like her reaction to the early wagon.

She seemed more interested in placating the wagon

on her than figuring out the people on it.

I don't like PV questioning Chara about pointing out L-1, it's a common practice and PV should know that. Not wanting an accidental lynch =/= not wanting a lynch.

Why wouldn't I be? With so few people in the ring it doesn't take much to get a majority.

There's a good chance there's already scum in the ring, but there's also still a pretty big chunk of players on even in here yet. Scum is probably sitting back laughing, because they get to lurk until they're called.

@Leonshade Take a look at this post here. This has two possibilities:

A> Chickadee is scum and her partners hadn't come in at that point OR
B> Chickadee is town and that is a genuine fear.

Either way this post reads as genuine she is examining the criticisms laid against her in detail and interacting with it.

Her join date is 2011. A couple others Town pinged me too but this one especially.

The wagon on Chickadee occurred very early on, it's quite possible that she didn't have partners here when there were between five to seven players in the thread.

I read that Chickadee post as a defense, nothing more. It could as easily come from scum as town.

I don't see why you have a strong TR on Chickadee based on these reasons. You yourself present the possibility of Chick being afraid because her partners aren't here yet, what makes you think that that wasn't the case?

[Leonshade]

How the wagon formed mainly and how few reasons are being given to scumread Chickadee and I was presenting things from both angles mainly so people can understand me rather than go "OMG tunnel math". This Chickadee wagon just feels wrong.

This reasoning is just about the wagon on Chickadee, not about Chickadee herself. It still doesn't explain why you're dismissing your alternative possibility of Chickadee being the sole member of her scumteam up to that point. Chickadee's wagon formation does not look different from a standard early game wagon to me, and I disagree that reasons haven't been given for the Chickadee scumread.

Chickadee is a weak scumread but

i don't like to see her as the only wagon

. seems everyone has a minor 'problem' with the slot. and Mathblade brings up a point about her being new. i don't think i checked her join date, but if she is then i'd expect her to look worse than the players here right now simply because of a lack of experience, not alignment.

unfortunately i have no idea how to read Mathblade. (i really will sheep Almost if he's town in this game :>) but their tendency to dislike wagons with a lot of support is NAI for them as far as i know.

Chickadee's join date is 2011, but it looks like their posting has a huge hiatus until the last few months. Being new could be an explanation for her lack of reads, but her reaction to her wagon, combined with that, is still scummy in my eyes.

Bolded interests me, why do you have a problem with her being the only wagon? It seems odd to complain about the wagon you're on picking up steam. Who else do you think should be getting wagoned?

Of the people in the ring, PV I have a mild problem with, but not as big as Chickadee. I had a problem with Titus in the locker room thread, but not with anything outside her mastina read. Outside of them, nobody currently in the thread has pinged me.

[Leonshade]

V/LA for May Day.

[Leonshade]

Back and caught up.

Math sheeping RC and Titus on the KMD wagon seems really out of character.

I can do KMD.

VOTE: KMD

RL Today.

[redacted image]

Why can you do KMD when the only players pushing it are the ones pushing you?

RC, can we lynch this please?

RC is not pushing me. He dayvigged me and then I didn't die. So I wonder why that is....

Then we are working together on a mutual scumread and KMD did not sit right me in the locker room. And

yes part of being civil means not screaming you are scum every two seconds when you make blatantly bad posts and never answer my questions.

If that is the case, why did you not mention KMD in this post?

Spoiler: Math's scumreads post

I scumread everyone else. We are only far out of RVS because people are picking their friends to play with.
If I or Chickadee are mislynched we still won't have a fucking clue who scum are after one of us dies which is bad.

This just feels more like flailing. You and I both know you have been mislynched a lot, so you should be able to tell who is scum and who isn't scum pushing you, or at least make an effort to.

I already have a few TRs and SRs in this thread and I think so does everyone.

But they're right. The only information you really get from one of us flipping town is that we defended each other. Could be good town reads, could be a good scum play to hide a while. Though, I'm inclined to say we're both town.

That's just incorrect and the more you focus exclusively on defending each other and not scumhunting, the more it's likely you're just scum.

I already scumread you and you repeat the same talking points and how opportunistic you are.
I scumread Gamma who keeps intentionally making the same mistakes.
I scumread Not Chara for having a different game than Inception.
I scumread Peptobislawl for lying and then saying other people have to correct them rather than admitting their mistake and this blame on other people only came up after bringing it up twice.
I scumread a lot of people for not correcting it.

Seriously stop calling reads not scumhunting.

I can't remember you mentioning a scumread on KMD in the pre-game thread, and even if you did, you certainly didn't focus on it enough for me to take note. It's really unlike you to have a read that you don't talk about, town!Math tends to be transparent about their reads. Choosing to sheep RC and Titus also seems weird, when you scumread Titus and haven't claimed a TR on RC. In Civ Mafia you didn't seem to hold RC in a high regard when he asked you who you thought were the best town players in the game, so I don't buy sheeping him on account of BoP, either.

VOTE: MathBlade

[Leonshade]

Also I forgot about this, but for context, this happened in the locker room:

Dodge was giving a couple of reads because Titus said here she wanted them. They included Titus town for a few reasons including agreeing with her. I cautioned him that agreeing with a good player in a game with multiple teams is a bad reason for a town read. He gave a jokey reply about it being a monumental occasion because he never agrees with Titus. I gave a one word answer of "understandable".

That's where mathblade's scum read on me came from.

Mathblade's version is that I was encouraging dodge's town read.

My version is that I was relating to his joke about never agreeing with Titus.

I'll let you guys decide what makes more sense.

But yes, mathblade's vote on me is consistent with the locker room and probably not just sheeping a scum read's vote.

Hmm, I do remember Dodge's TR.

This does make Math's vote more believable. Still, why choose to vote KMD over any other scumread? It's not like Math is lacking in scumreads, and the choice of players to sheep is still odd. Having a legit that they hadn't mentioned in this thread thus far is a sign that Math's scumhunting is legit, but that's NAI in a multiball setup.

[Leonshade]

Having a read that they hadn't mentioned in this thread thus far is a sign that Math's scumhunting is legit, but that's NAI in a multiball setup.

EBWOP.

[Leonshade]

Don't play like a jester in a game confirmed not to have jesters.

I won't risk hammering yet but the day should end with a Gamma lynch.

More when I'm home.

[Leonshade]

No jesters IS a very specific denial. It's hard for me to believe that Gamma thought his play would lead to him surviving. He didn't provide any reason for us to work with him, besides his honesty, and then he revealed he wasn't even honest. I don't think it's a lock that he wants to be lynched, but I would've assumed jester if the mod hadn't confirmed otherwise. And the fact that the mod specifically confirmed otherwise makes me suspect that Gamma benefits from being lynched.

[Leonshade]

gerry could be town, I like how he's trying to slow down the Gamma wagon.

Gamma is not a threat at this point, quicklynching him is not necessary.

P-edit: For what it's worth, I took it at face value at first. Gamma's play is what made me reconsider.

[Leonshade]

OK. So we have red, yellow and ??? Mafia teams of 2 players each? Do you guys think there's a 4th team?

Also, well played Nero. This time you didn't actually follow the scum meta I'm used to from you.

But hold on! If we have several Mafia teams, why the heck do we have only one kill??

We're 2/2 for scum deaths, why assume only three or maybe four scumteams? I wouldn't be surprised if there are more than four.

[Leonshade]

Two scum could just be a coincidence, but as you said, the setup is weird enough that a lot of teams might not work here. Kuroi specifically said that this setup is hard to win. I think that implies an abnormally large number of teams.

Why am I town?

[Leonshade]

Also, the way Almost said it makes me think that he's trying to downplay the number of scum in this game.

[Leonshade]

If he's outted scum and it's a 2-person scumteam I see no point in lynching him right now tbh

You seriously think I'd claim scum like that? That would be gamethrowing.

Okay

VOTE: Gamma

Talk me through this? Why the change of opinion? And why were you opposed to a Gamma lynch at first? (Unless you were just opposing a quicklynch as well).

[Leonshade]

gerry could be town, I like how he's trying to slow down the Gamma wagon.

Explain why?

Simply wagoning Gamma would be easy, but instead you were the first to go out of your way to tell people to slow down and discuss things. Not a strong read, but I liked it.

I'm also interested in why Titus thought KMD died.

[Leonshade]

Also, the way Almost said it makes me think that he's trying to downplay the number of scum in this game.

i didn't get that impression. it just looked like a question.
what does scum Almost get from downplaying the number of scum here?

i'm not sure how many teams there could be but it might be a lot. i'm not going to worry about it right now because it's so far a perfect game, even if we just got lucky.

The post was just something that pinged me. The best way I can explain it is that it made me think Almost is intentionally speculating on and downplaying the amount of scum because he's in a separate team from the flipped two. Downplaying the amount of potential scumteams would be a form of dumbtelling, pretending to not have the knowledge that you're in a scumteam as well. The way Almost limited his speculation to four felt a bit forced, I would expect town!Almost to think bigger instead of arbitrarily limiting his speculation. The post isn't a strong scumtell or anything, but it stood out to me.

FireScreamer's lead-up to the Chara vote looks more like a gotcha than actual questioning.

Two scum could just be a coincidence, but as you said, the setup is weird enough that a lot of teams might not work here. Kuroi specifically said that this setup is hard to win. I think that implies an abnormally large number of teams.

Why am I town?

Curious about this wording. You say a lot of teams might not work here, then you say the setup implies an abnormally large number of teams. Which is it. It don't really find this contradiction scummy, I just want clarification.

Meant to say "a lot of teams might work here." The case of the extraneous "not."

[Leonshade]

ok, first guess: is it because i haven't voted Gamma?

Well duh

FireScreamer, are you implying we should all vote gamma before everyone has time to come in and contribute? There's still so much time left in the day. Why rush it? There's a good number of votes on Gamma already.

Why are you not on the wagon of someone who should 100% be lynched again?

No really, why are you trying to rush this?

This is a pretty bad case of taking something out of context, it's pretty obvious FS was trying to point out a contradiction in Chara's perspective, not trying to rush it to a lynch. Especially since FS has been the poster boy for opposing the Gamma lynch. What Chick's doing doesn't read as misrep, but it does imply that she's cherry picking.

Also someday I'll roll Jester and I will ASSFUCK YOU WITH THE KNOWLEDGE I EARNED HERE.

I'll repeat: It's not the fact that you are 3P, it's what it takes for you to win. If you were a Jester I would have gladly granted you your win. If you were a Survivour I would have tolerated you for as long as your survival didn't jeopardize the Town chances to win. But you are asking me to lynch Massive for you, and with 2-person teams I find it highly unlikely Massive is on such a small team AND had you hunting specifically for his head. Now he can be 3P as well, a survivour to be exact, but that's about it. He can't be a member of a Mafia cell (yeah, that's how I'm calling these tiny separate groups). It's game play 101

I hadn't thought about massive's alignment, but this makes a lot of sense. scum!massive having a lyncher on him would be a big drawback.

Spoiler: Almost

Also, the way Almost said it makes me think that he's trying to downplay the number of scum in this game.

Old habits. At least you're not as explicit as SRing me off the bat on page one!

I mean, seriously.. I've just ended a dayless game where I explicitly sent out 2 announcement on 2 successive nights outing 2 scums and signing my name, and Alisae still wasn't sure about me!!!! Like why would I have outed myself when I could have faked a signature (many others did from both sides)? If either of N_M or BTD flipped green I would have been the next Town Vig target for certain (Thank God that was Comm and he both had good reads of his own AND trusted me).

Back to this game: Why would I want to play down (or exaggerate) the # of scums?? What is the scum motive behind me doing either? Why would I not shut up and let you all make your own estimations, or not at all.

And before you respond with something like "to deceive the town and/or to appear townie", why would I even want to appear townie when there are as many Mafia duets? If Town won't lynch me, Mafia will. And if I'm not lynched I'll be NK'd anyway. THINK, Leon. THINK.

I think I covered part of this in my response to Chara. You COULD shut up, but that's not the way scum!Almost plays, or at least it's not my perception of how you play. As for appearing town, I think that scum are more likely to want to shoot the other scum first, so they have a better chance of drawing the NK. Appearing town would protect you from both town as well as scum.

[Leonshade]

Persona 5 will now take precedence over catching up. Still think Gamma should probably the lynch for today, but the idea of lynching others until the first mislynch vengekills Gamma has an appeal to it. It plays around the possibility of him benefiting from being lynched.

I was thinking of how we tried to play around a supersaint in Code Geass, and then I remembered that that was also Gamma.

[Leonshade]

VOTE: Gamma

Don't feel like wallposting right now. Is Tywin's aggression common for them? Their play feels different from WWE Mafia. In general I dislike this thing Tywin, Pepto and maybe others are doing, where they'll say "people doing this are scummy" but don't actually name anyone who's doing it. It's not scumhunting, it's just putting on the appearance of an opinion while avoiding any actual commitment to a read. Dodge also did that early on, but he quickly called out FS for the thing he was calling out, which is the scumhunting version of doing that.

Almost's mastina vote bothers me, mastina being lazy doesn't strike me as a reason to scumread her.

[Leonshade]

Gamma is the best lynch for today, there's nobody else who strikes me as obvscum. The plan to leash the vengekill in the case of a mislynch

might

be optimal in an ideal world, but in the real world it has a very real chance of biting us in the ass.

[Leonshade]

LUV already being demotivated is a bit odd on its face, but I've seen similar behavior from town!LUV before. But I cam barely remember anything else he's done this game.

[Leonshade]

Maria claiming Gamma is town is another thing that looks odd on its face, but Maria being clueless about the gamestate isn't scummy for her.

[Leonshade]

Unless mastina's deliberately avoiding this game amd posting elsewhere, I'll assume her inactivity is NAI. I don't think most players would choose such a boring style of scum play.

[Leonshade]

Two teams in two days, nice.

massive, what does this "double win" of yours involve?

VOTE: Chickadee

[Leonshade]

WAIT! Did I not say these two were a team in the locker room????

This reminds me: why were you thinking about tag teams in the first place?

am i the only one who finds it hilarious that when Titus and Math are is the same game they just tunnel each other lol

Ok, this actually reminded me of why Narna fakevigged me in the Locker room. It was right after I said I would be skimming on the ring with all the Titus vs Nero & RC vs Math duels, and then said it could be called a tag-team fight between Nero+Math vs Titus+RC.

Why can't it be Nero+RC and Math+Titus?

See, I think the above was Gamma slipping that he was looking at two-man teams, because he was in one himself. So why were you thinking about tag teams?

@Narna:

Could you recap your fakevig of Almost from your perspective?

[Leonshade]

V/LA from now through Monday.

[Leonshade]

[Leonshade]

Judging by the vote count and low activity, is it safe to assume that nothing exciting happened over the weekend?

[Leonshade]

Judging by the vote count and low activity, is it safe to assume that nothing exciting happened over the weekend?

For the most part yes. The leading wagons are Tywin, Gerrygoat, and myself. Any thoughts about any of those wagons?

Well I'm on your wagon, pretty much for the same reasons as I was on it D1. It's a stagnant read, but I figured that if I was right on Math, maybe I was right on you.

Tywin seemed a bit off, but I haven't seen any particular reason to scumread him.

I remember being here when the gerry wagon started, but besides that "slip" (ugh), I don't remember why he was scumread. Don't SR him, myself.

UNVOTE: until I catch up.

[Leonshade]

I feel like I could throw a rock in a random direction and hit scum. Might as well keep coasting.

VOTE: Chickadee

[Leonshade]

Also down to wagon Luv Leon Pep and MC until they do something.

Any takers?

17
25
34
49
posts on day 4 and there not even wall posts...mother of god

So is this based on anything other than post count? I was part of the one lynch we've had this game and I had Math as scum before they flipped. I questioned Narna because I thought that their fake dayvig might have been the result of scum thinking (identifying Almost's talk of tag teams as looking for two-player scumteams). Simply looking at my post count and concluding that I haven't done anything is the laziest "lynch all lurkers" policy possible.

Why are mastina and PeregrineV excluded from your lynch pool? They also have low post counts, if you're going to call for LAL, why exclude them?

McMenno could be town, I think posting reads and being confrontational with his thoughts instead of blending into the background is town for him.

I may have low activity but I do that every game. At least I read the thread unlike VOTE: mastina.

Nice deflection.

mastina does seem to put a lot of effort and energy into explaining why she's had no effort or energy for this game, but I don't know if that's scummy or just a personality quirk. I'm willing to wait for her replacement.

Pepto is L-1 by my count, so I'm declaring

intent.

[Leonshade]

I guess Titus/mastina being lynchers against each other is possible. I just don't know that I care. One or both of them could still be scum like Gamma was, and I'm not going to cry if we hand one of them a win in case we decide to lynch the other.

[Leonshade]

It is mostly I want everyone to post more I can read your iso again but most of these points don't really matter because if you're scum you are clearly scumhunting for the other teams too it's about how you go at it that's the issue. I didn't put mastina because they are showing there here and trying to catch up so I'm giving them time and I tr Pere given our interaction early

It's true that scumhunting isn't towny in this setup, but I wasn't defending my alignment, I was defending myself from the claim that I've done nothing. I haven't been more active because there hasn't been a reason to, this game's been so easy thus far.

I just think she's third party based on her "only Titus" vote pattern and how she wasn't modkilled with the other scum. She's gotta be someone's win con to remain I think. That means lyncher/lynchee like gamma/massive imo.

If it's lynch the lurker phase, then pepto makes more sense. He prod dodges, but does nothing. His vote on mastina is hypocritical too. I think he's scum and is a better bet than mastina right now. The depression thing also looks legit. All her posts show the same kind of thing.

I think the modkills were because the entire team was lurking. Mastina has had far too much defense not to be scum with kmd at this point. They claimed masons, but kmd is gradually walking that back in case Mastina is lynched.

Second, I am a lyncher of all the flipped and unflipped scum.

I don't mind a lurker lynch here to give the game life, I'm just suspicious because this is a counter to Mastina.

And what does that matter in this setup? Even if you're right about mastina being scum, that doesn't make Pepto town. At best you can conclude that they're not buddies, and that's only because Pepto tried to shift the pressure off him to mastina.

[Leonshade]

@Almost:

What is your opinion on Pepto and the Pepto wagon? Why mastina over Pepto?

[Leonshade]

Alright, I don't see a single reason to lynch mastina over Pepto anymore. You could say that this burst of activity doesn't make her town, which is true, but what's the reason to believe that she's scum? Her lack of activity was the only argument, and now that's gone. Meanwhile Pepto is actually coasting, and deflected to mastina when called out on it. The one reason given to the mastina wagon applies to Pepto even more, with none of the redeeming factors. I'm willing to entertain the idea of a wagon other than Pepto, but I see zero reason to lynch mastina over Pepto right now.

Whatever. Don't care at all. Mastina pissed me off irl at this point, still never claimed, and wasted more time. I'm not moving. She could've just claimed and apologized for being selfish. I really don't care whatsoever if she wants to interpret that as scummy or not. I won't let a player like that win as long as I'm around, and I won't be playing with a player like that as long as I can help it. It's a persobal value system thing for me at this point, so go dk what you want, but mastina doesn't deserve a win over titus imo. What she did was wrong and should be against the rules. It is actually, but she was allowed to stick around and pretend her schedule was more important than everyone elses, then vomits on the thread was an only half-done read without claiming.

Almost50, you're a sucker. She only read to page 44. That's it. She won't bother actually catching up, and another real life day was wasted by her. It's so selfish that frankly, I won't move my vote from her ever. It's disgusting to me. Legitimately disgusts me.

This is just silly. She's being active and providing reads, she may not be caught up yet but she just provided more content than half the playerlist has. What's the argument for lynching her now, that she

might

be a lyncher? If I knew that she was, I wouldn't even want to lynch her. If Titus and mastina are lynchers on each other, there's no reason to give a win to either of them. Though at this point, I see little reason to believe that they're lynchers on each other. A scum/lurker tactic based around lurking for weeks before bursting into a ton of activity all of a sudden? Occam's Razor says that it's more likely mastina is simply telling the truth about real life, regardless of activity. Voting Titus every time is just as easily explained by her voting for her pre-game scumread.

Vote parking on mastina just strikes me as an excuse to not do anything.

[Leonshade]

I don't find Titus sticking to her scumread suspicious, she's prone to making reads based on herself. But I don't see why town!Tywin would care this much about mastina vs. Titus.

[Leonshade]

mastina's catch-up also reminded me how hard LUV has been coasting (Maria also brought this up, but I was distracted by her lumping me in the same group). I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on the day Gamma claimed, as I bought his reasoning of being distracted by claimed scum, but he hasn't done anything else afterwards, either.

[Leonshade]

UNVOTE:

My read on Chick is pretty meh, now. I'm willing to wait until Pepto comes back or gets prodded, but that's my preferred wagon for today.

[Leonshade]

- All town members, however, are vengeful and can take another player with them.

mastina's argument makes some sense. ALL town members are vengeful, so for Tywin to be town, he has to have a vig as well as a vengekill. I don't think this makes him confscum, but I see where mastina is coming from.

And Tywin in general is just trying to coast with this tunnel on mastina for no sane reason. Even without the role thing, I think he's just scum. Pepto is probably also coasting scum, but I want Tywin more.

VOTE: Tywin

[Leonshade]

Spoiler: Dodge's 1864

Alright, I don't see a single reason to lynch mastina over Pepto anymore. You could say that this burst of activity doesn't make her town, which is true, but what's the reason to believe that she's scum? Her lack of activity was the only argument, and now that's gone. Meanwhile Pepto is actually coasting, and deflected to mastina when called out on it. The one reason given to the mastina wagon applies to Pepto even more, with none of the redeeming factors. I'm willing to entertain the idea of a wagon other than Pepto, but I see zero reason to lynch mastina over Pepto right now.

I'll bite on this line of thought really quick. Mastina's sudden burst of activity isn't alignment indicative (and she explained it herself a few posts ago). My initial impression (when I was interjecting last night) was her first set of posts were really shallow and surface level. The same criticism I levied against Gerryoat early on. Specifically (and sorry, I'm not going to insert links Posts #1770 thru #1777, and then up until #1804, which is the first post of hers that I took seriously. And then it went back to more surface level stuff. I don't like how much weight she had given to players who replaced out. (RC and Fart being notable examples). I also didn't like how she was attributing a scumlean to me with no specifics. In her early posts, I hadn't entered the game (nor do I recall posting anything significant while she was waiting in the dead thread). In #1794 she quoted Almost50 and said 'oh and I don't like Dodge either' but in the post she quoted, I wouldn't enter the game for another 200 posts. Also in #1814 where she calls me scum and links to a Narna post (in which I didn't have a post in 40 posts either direction). I know these are self-centered examples, but the devil is in the details.

Which is funny, because on certain players, her reads are well developed and I can clearly see what she is demonstrating. But on other reads, they are shallow. To me, it looks like she is forcing more reads than she has.

Is she town? I don't think so. Too many forced reads for my liking. Is she still scumhunting? Yes.

unvote

Gonna think on it.

I haven't been analyzing mastina's posts that closely, since it would require me to go back and essentially catch up with her in the process. I said myself that mastina's activity doesn't make her town, just that it made the previous reasons for wagoning her meaningless. mastina could be scum, but I don't want to lynch her today, when there's scummier people to choose from.

[Leonshade]

Still happy with either Tywin or Pepto being lynched.

This post is actually a prodge, more later.

[Leonshade]

Intent on Pepto.

[Leonshade]

Titus, if you confirm that you are a lyncher on mastina I'll follow you until you meet that win condition.

Yeah, I guess. Not what I was looking for, but okay.

Vote: mastina

Why would you care? Titus's response doesn't necessarily come from a lyncher anyway, but why would you care about giving a lyncher the win?

[Leonshade]

I'm Iron Sheik, survivor. Any last questions you want me to answer?

Could you explain how your wincon is worded in a little more detail?

[Leonshade]

I will say that I always get paranoid of people who go to great lengths to explain their real life reasons for not being active. Though I know it's usually just personality.

[Leonshade]

I'm Iron Sheik, survivor. Any last questions you want me to answer?

Could you explain how your wincon is worded in a little more detail?

I win if I am alive when the game ends, and I can win with any faction. Standard survivor deal.

Was trying to figure out whether a survivor even makes sense in this setup. Town wincon is pretty vague, I guess a survivor could be a part of "all you".

50/50 chance you're telling the truth. I won't hammer you right now, and I think I want Tywin more than a probable survivor. Though it's not worth the risk of taking you to the endgame, so even if you don't get lynched today, you probably won't make it to the endgame unless we keep lynching scum.

[Leonshade]

VOTE: Tywin

Is Tywin/Titus too simple a team? Titus doesn't like to bus and defends her buddies, but I don't think she would've taken Tywin's side so obviously. But I think Tywin is scum anyway.

[Leonshade]

1- This is becoming VERY interesting! RC had a 100% hit rate on Scums!!
2- How the hell did we end up with TWO kills tonight? My only explanation is Titus targeted a PGO.
3- If 2 is correct then Titus p knows who is PGO
4- Interestingly, gerry is ignoring the simple game mechanic "

Each night, one name among all killing roles will take part in a lottery. If your name is chosen, you may submit that name and that player's character will die.

". This -to me- says only ONE "deliberate" NK per night. It can't be a Vig+Mafia kill.
5- KMD had no partner (no PT). He must've been pepto's p before pepto decided to align him self with the Hardy boys.

RC was 100% on scum, but he also had Titus as 100% town.

I initially assumed a vig of some kind, but PGO makes sense as well. A PGO might actually be the more likely answer. I don't know if a night vig fits a setup where every townie (so specifically not just VTs) has a vengekill.

So you think that KMD was converted from a mafia to an SK when Pepto switched partners? Why wouldn't he simply still be called mafia? I don't think he'd get a new role PM just because his partner swapped places.

VOTE: Tywin

Is Tywin/Titus too simple a team? Titus doesn't like to bus and defends her buddies, but I don't think she would've taken Tywin's side so obviously. But I think Tywin is scum anyway.

What was that thing Mastina talking about earlier?

The teams power roles oddly complement each other in some way right?

I wasn't really thinking about their PRs when I made that post, I simply had them mentally linked due to both of them pushing for mastina and defending each other. I wasn't seriously entertaining the idea before, because I wasn't scumreading Titus, but her flipping scum made the idea pop into my mind. I haven't really thought it through, yet.

[Leonshade]

While I'm glad that people seem to be getting into this game again, I don't feel like doing all this reading at the moment. I'll catch up once things settle down for me.

[Leonshade]

Oh ho Leon! I see you had time to do this, but not address this.

In post 2113, Leonshade wrote:
VOTE: Tywin

Is Tywin/Titus too simple a team? Titus doesn't like to bus and defends her buddies, but I don't think she would've taken Tywin's side so obviously. But I think Tywin is scum anyway.

Where do you get the Tywin/Titus scumteam theory from? That came out of left field. If we really wanted to go that route, wouldn't I be a better candidate to be her partner? I basically ignored her all game, and this time we're in the same thread! That's some distance I'd say!

The reason I quote this is not because I think the conclusion is right or wrong. I am pointing it out for your viewing pleasure for a specific reason. Look at it again. Leon just casually drops this theory by as he casually drops his vote by. How does he come to this conclusion? Shit if any of us know right? It kinda reminds me of what optimal scum strategy is in multiball. Post something plausible, but don't challenge anyone to think, and don't challenge anyone on what they think. Judges?

I never seriously considered a Tywin/Titus scumteam before, because I wasn't scumreading Titus at that point. I didn't really have a reasonable reason to townread her, but I was dismissing her tunnel on mastina as stubborn town. I thought that her reasons for being on the mastina wagon were much more believable than Tywin's were, so my hunch was that she was more likely town.

The post you quoted was largely stream of consciousness. Tywin and Titus were linked in my mind due to them both being on the mastina wagon, and due to them defending and agreeing each other on their weak reasoning. As I say in that post, I don't think that Tywin and Titus are actually a scumteam, I think it's more likely that they were just buddying each other. I don't think RC calls his partner 100% town right off the bat, and I don't think Titus and Tywin are that obvious about their connection. The post was me having, and immediately dismissing, an idea.

I also hadn't considered you as a potential Titus partner because I've been townreading you. Nor was I thinking of potential buddies for Titus in general, since she'd just flipped.

I was intending to post more, but it was Saturday night and guests came over. Do you have more examples of me posting in what you consider your optimal scum strategy, or is that it?

[Leonshade]

Titus, if you confirm that you are a lyncher on mastina I'll follow you until you meet that win condition.

Yeah, I guess. Not what I was looking for, but okay.

Vote: mastina

Why would you care? Titus's response doesn't necessarily come from a lyncher anyway, but why would you care about giving a lyncher the win?

I was reminded of this, I don't think you ever responded to it. Why did you care about a player you thought was a lyncher target?

[Leonshade]

Gotta pack, moving tomorrow. Activity on the ride there, maybe.

[Leonshade]

Who THE FREAK kills a GUARANTEED lynch before LyLo?

What the fuck type of nightkill is that? The only reason I see that being a thing is massive was a threat to someone or it was to kill someone for no info but the ladder feels weak.

Maf/SK is stupid as fuck lmao. it makes me wonder that they didnt wanna kill someone towny because the person TRs them.

One of you submitted that kill, didn't you?

Was surprised to find Tywin was a SK. Interesting.

how is your first post not a reaction to that kill

First

this too

Probably not gerry, he's focusing on it too much to be the one.

[Leonshade]

{Leonshade}
{mastina, Dodge, Maria, Priscilla}
{PeregrineV, gerryoat, McMenno, Almost50, Majiffy (who did he replace?)}
{Lil Uzi Vert}
{Chickadee}

Nobody gets to be a top tier townread, as at this point there's nobody who would surprise me if they flipped scum.

That said, I do feel pretty good about all of my townreads. I'm willing to explain any of these, but I think all of these are pretty evident from my ISO and their play in general. mastina and Priscilla have impressed me with the volume and consistency of not just their content, but the actual original thoughts and scumhunting in their content. Bringing attention to yourself in this setup is a bad idea. I don't think scum would choose to do more work just to put themselves in arguably a worse position, so I'm inclined to view both of them as being town who are trying to solve the game, with no regard for if they become an NK target.

My Dodge townread has been both implicit earlier on and explicit later, my impression of him has been similar to what I've later gotten from mastina and Priscilla. He's brought less attention to himself than the other two, so I'm less confident on this read, but he's still townier than most people in this game.

Maria's TR is based more on her tone, she's felt genuine to me all game. I especially liked how she interacted with Math's read on (mastina?) in the locker room, she disagreed with Math's stance and was trying to talk her out of it, but it felt like she was truly trying to understand Math's stance, instead of simply discrediting it. This is a bit more likely to come from scum in a multiball like this, but I'm still more inclined to think that it comes from town.

LUV isn't on the bottom tier, because it's possible that I'm wrong and he's telling the truth about being demotivated. It's a plausible explanation for his play here, but I'm not willing to give him a pass for his coasting based on his self-meta.

On the other hand, I feel that Chickadee has been playing it safe all game. She hasn't been coasting as blatantly as LUV, but she's been putting in just enough work to appear town, which is why I think she's more likely scum than LUV. She's not obvscum like our last couple of lynches have been, but she's the scummiest player left in the game.

VOTE: Chickadee

[Leonshade]

Wait, Majiffy's been in the game all this time? I don't have any recollection of what he's done in this game.

[Leonshade]

That's a bad sign in and of itself. Looks like he's just been tunneling gerry all this time, too.

[Leonshade]

Might as well go through the rest of my reads.

PV is another one where I don't think he's made much of an impact in this game, but that's the norm for PV. I don't feel the need to dig deeper into him at this point in the game, I'll focus on him if we run out of obvious lynches.

I townread a couple of posts McMenno made, as he expressed some strong opinions unsolicited. But after going back to check his Code Geass play, he's not a complete ninja like I remembered, making biting remarks about people is well within the scope of his scum play. My strategy with reading McMenno is to keep him at null until I townread something of his, and if he doesn't do that, he's scum. I'm going to still keep him at null for now, as I did TR something of his, even though I later rescinded it. Another one to come back to, if we run out of scummier people.

gerry's a minor townlean, I think he's had posts that he wouldn't make as scum (an example is that overt focus on the last NK). He fooled me in his last scumgame with me, and I haven't gone back to look at that game in detail yet, so this read can also stay here for now.

Almost has given me mixed signals this game. He hasn't made an impression on me, recently, but it looks like his activity has universally dropped off, so that may be why.

[Leonshade]

Leon, I don't understand why maf would make that kill. Like, it makes no sense. Unless he Sr the maf who made the kill

I do believe you, I don't think you'd make such a big deal of it if it was just for show. I'm just inclined to raise me eyebrow at people who rush to gloat (or in this case the opposite) post-kill, in general.

[Leonshade]

I've been on autopilot in this game for a few in-game days now, and there's been no reason not to do so. It looks like either Pepto and Titus were partners together, or there's at least two scum from separate teams remaining. I don't know why Pepto would've decided to join Narna and Momo's team when he did, if he was partners with Titus, so I think it's unlikely that they were buddies together. So I think that there's at least two separate scum remaining.

I thought that maybe a scum won the NK lottery twice in a row, figured that they were the last scum and shot their NK lottery competitor, but if the above is two, scum would know that there's more scum left.

I don't know, maybe the scum was afraid that there's a PGO (due to the two kills) and shot the one guy guaranteed to not be a PGO?

[Leonshade]

Yea, getting lynched is what I meant. It's just not what I said. And theres no riddle. I didn't have anyone specific in mind. But since you asked...Dodge isn't on anyone's lynch list (still wouldn't lynch them, they're town), LUV is on a few people's radars, but everyone is content to let him keep sliding by. Majiffy also seems to be running through the game successfully under the radar.

Dodge is the only one of these who really fits the "universal TR" slot. I don't know what special incentive the players off of everyone's radar would have to make that massive kill.

[Leonshade]

I don't see why either would care about massive of all people. He'd already won the game, he'd have no reason to push for anyone. More active people have been pushing for Chickadee, and I'd sooner think that if Maria was going to kill someone who's been scumreading her, it'd be gerry.

[Leonshade]

Like if anyone wanted to kill massive because they perceived he'd be a threat, maybe scum!PV got worried that massive might be able to read him. But I think it's much more likely that massive was killed for non-read related reasons.

P-edit: True, I don't think Maria would kill you here.

[Leonshade]

And it doesn't strike anyone as odd that not a single person sticks up for me? I'm not on any scum teams. You people are crazy.

So you're an SK, then? Or maybe Pepto or Titus's buddy.

[Leonshade]

It's really funny that you use that "I'M NOT ON A TEAM" argument after Tywin did the same.

[Leonshade]

Your whole argument is really silly when you take everything that's happened this game, and it looks like you're grasping at straws. Some survivalism is to be expected, but I think a townie wouldn't make that argument here.

[Leonshade]

This game has been bizarre, but I don't buy three SKs. All the other scum teams have been two person teams, so it make sense to me that there would only be two SKs.

That does make sense. Your argument that nobody defending you means you're town doesn't.

You KNOW my scum game. Right? Ok, maybe I'm not obv!Towning enough here, but do YOU think I would shoot a guaranteed lynch over someone whom I think is hard to lynch if I ever had a kill? Is that how you think Scum!Me would go about it?

The fact is I truly find it ridiculous and borders on clumsy a move (apologies to whomever you are who took that shot).

That was more a knee-jerk reaction to your knee-jerk reactions, I'd be going after you if I actually thought it was scummy.

[Leonshade]

Yo leon why couldn't you be this helpful in dota you dick.

Well I wanted the obvscum lynched D1, and SOMEONE had to come in derailing that lynch. And my motivation for the game kept going down D2 onwards.

I'm shocked you tr me based on tone because I feel in the games I've bee nwith you I was a lot more I don't know...bitchy and aggressive then I am now? So you tring me on tone is like O_o

I don't think your tone here is similar to our other games together, but I think your tone is sincere. That example of your interaction with Math is my prime example, but I've felt that way about your tone throughout the game. I once read a scumgame of yours for reference (that card game where you were buddies with Vecna and LUV), I felt that your tone there felt like the opposite of someone sincere and genuinely interested.

[Leonshade]

I don't think so. I guess you could read my reads list, but I don't think it will convince you of anything.

[Leonshade]

I'm going to like
reread leonshade's iso from the original game and compare it
for now I'm putting down my vote here
VOTE: chickadee

I wouldn't bother, at least I wouldn't bother reading me after I got drafted to the other brand. At that point, I was just coasting to an easy win.

I would like to hear what makes you think that my play is/might be similar to my play in the original game.

[Leonshade]

Haha please you are making me blush.

Would it make you feel better if you knew I had a significant other and was thus already taken?

(Would it then make you feel worse after me having said that for me to also mention that polyamory is a thing? )

Can love bloom, even in a mafia game?

I was considering someone else, but you just earned my venge shot.

Go ahead and push my lynch.

This is a scum threat. You're threatening to shoot a player voting you, hoping that this will dissuade Maria or others from voting you.

[Leonshade]

I'm not sure why you feel my vote is AI given that Ty scum claimed a million times. I don't think you actually think I'm scum. It is sounding more and more like you just want to be right. It's okay to be wrong my friend.

Do you townread mastina?

[Leonshade]

Still not gonna vote her. Be that what may be.

That's fine, but I don't see you offering any alternatives.

I'm not telling anyone to hammer Chickadee now, but if you don't support her lynch, please try to get something else done. As it stands, all that has really happened this day is Chickadee being wagoned. I understand very well that some need more time to catch up, but try to understand those of us, who are caught up and simply sitting around, waiting for something to happen.

Above paragraph meant in general, not just to Almost.

[Leonshade]

Happy belated birthday, Almost!

[Leonshade]

I'll give this game love tomorrow.

[Leonshade]

@LUV:

I remember you once saying that if you don't defend yourself, you're town. Have you consciously changed your playstyle since then? As your recent play seems to consist almost exclusively of you defending yourself.

I'm aware of, but have not yet read, Almost's case on gerry and Dodge's case on me. I'll tackle those, next.

[Leonshade]

I skimmed his ISO and I now remember some of the stuff I ST him for, and one is him trying to earn Town cred for not reading the rules and SRing me for not defending him based on it.

As I explained, we played together in Inception and he didn't read the rules. I was Town and he was SCUM in Inception, so I -of course- don't see it as "he always does that regardless of alignment" because it was the only time I remember seeing him in action and HE WAS SCUM.

Not only that (the Town cred appeal) but trying to push me as Scum for failing to "defend him" was a huge misrep and misdirection.

I'd forgotten all about this, I had to go check his ISO to remember what you were talking about. But I view it as more weird than scummy. In my experience, gerryoat is prone to basing their reads on themselves as well as the way others react to him (not always, but commonly). It's not misrep, as he's telling a truthful account of the events (you were in Inception Mafia, where he didn't read the rules, and now you're here, where he didn't read the rules). He's just drawing bizarre conclusions from them (that you should know it's NAI for him to not read the rules).

There is also the matter of "If I don't flip scum will you self vote tomorrow? I don't care if you're town, i want you to look like an idiot."

1- As Town you have your venge kill.
2- "I don't care if you're town" hardly comes fro, a Townie (who also thought there were 5 scum teams at the time)

I had to check the context for this, as I'd also forgotten about this. It looks like this happened when I was doing my term paper, as I went V/LA around this time, so I probably only skimmed through these pages. I don't think that gerry being spiteful about being scumread is indicative of scum (I casually followed Laundry Mafia, where his reaction was worse). I don't even think that forgetting about the vengekill is necessarily a scumslip. It's a minor PR, I can buy a townie forgetting about it. But his response where he implies that he knew about the vengekill but wanted you lynched instead is pretty bad. It seems more likely that he really did forget about the vengekill, and that the response is a quick excuse to cover that.

Earlier in 1259 was also a concern but I couldn't shape it in words at the time. That question is indeed much more likely to come from TOWN not from Scum, but gerry got it vise-versa.

Explanation: As Town I want to eliminate SCUM. I might have had 3-4 TRs (say) and 3-4 SRs. A couple more Scum Leans and as many Town Leans. That left more than 50% of the player list in the NULL aream and I wanted to know if I should move them up towards the Null/Town or down towards the Null/Scum, and especially so when a Town read (Nero) flipped Scum AND the fact that we had 4 Scum flips over the first 2 cycles (D1-N2) which was kind of ... strange?!

For Scum though; everyone not on your team is to be eliminated, so less important for them to know if town existed at all, as they don't need to sort anyone and they want everybody "not them" eliminated.

I don't see why this is alignment indicative for gerry either way? He came to a different conclusion than you did.

Even further earlier I found that gerry had expressed a TR on Chicka twice or thrice, yet is one of the strongest advocators for her lynch now that mastina decided Chicka was Scum. I sense buddying and gerry is comfortable riding a TR by mastina (one that gerry recently expressed concern over having dropped, when gerry used to ask everyone who TR'd him "why" earlier). Also gerry had a SR on Tywin but retracted it for no apparent reason and wasn't even on Tywin's wagon.

Note: You might think I'm being contradictory there, but I'm not. GERRY is. My point is if didn't want to lynch Tywin you should also not want to lynch Chicka because she was even a stronger TR of yours earlier. OR, you could have joined the Tywin lynch and be justified in your new stance regarding Chicla as "sheeping mastina proved fruitful" kind of thing.

The end of the last day is something that I also skimmed through and haven't gone back to check. I don't remember gerry's reasons for leaving the Tywin wagon, but since Tywin flipped SK, I don't think gerry leaving the wagon is inherently scummy.

In the end, that vengekill reaction does stand out. I really should go back to take a look at Inception at some point, I need to see why I TR'd him in that game.

[Leonshade]

Two, pages 96-99 (not sure of exact start or end) where Leonshade suddenly is a player is this game! Would you look at that! (no Peregrine sightings though!) Why does this bother me? Well, you could see pages 1 through 95, where Leon is decidedly not a player in this game.

I don't think this is fair. Over half my ISO is outside of that stint of posting. I've been a part of the lynches we've had, and I was actively pushing for all the non-Gamma ones (and there was no need to push Gamma). There's been little need to argue over which wagon to push and multiple days have been cut off early, so my activity looks different from the average game, but I think this holds true for most players in this game. I've contributed to this game, claiming that I haven't is false.

The first thing that bothered me was the random 'Titus/Tywin are scum' together thing. I'm mostly fine with the response I eventually got, but I had to fight hard to get it. Now, this game has 2500+ posts, so it is reasonable that people miss things addressed at one another. In fact, as I was writing this I noticed that he asked something of me to which I missed.

Ok, this is pretty funny. You immediately undercut your own argument. Though that does show that you're more interested in being honest and thorough than simply making your argument look good.

In response to #2020, I asked Titus because I was interested in seeing how far she'd go. Notice that the vote quoted was not my first vote on Mastina, but my second, after I had unvoted after the bulk of mastina's catch up. At the time I think I was still wrestling with 'why has she not been forced replaced or modkilled?/huge coincidence? that she only starts her catch-up the moment she is in actual danger'. But I don't want to go into it and get another diatrade from mastina about how she plays a specific way and blah blah blah. Also, this isn't really about her.

Alright. I haven't really held you voting for mastina based on her not being modkilled against you, as I considered it plausible that someone would actually believe in that reasoning, even if I strongly disagreed with it. It's part of why I was surprised when Titus flipped scum, I didn't expect multiple scum to be pushing mastina based on the same reasoning. I was concerned about your question of Titus, as it looked like a way to justify lynching mastina regardless oh her alignment. I can buy you using it to sort Titus, as I considered your play more bizarre than scummy even at the time.

Back to Leon. So to recap, his response to my inquiry about his scumteam theory, that isn't a problem. Other than the nice panic at the end 'oh how else have I been scum in your esteemed opinion?' dripping with sarcasm to prove how ready he is for me to dissect his ISO, or something. I can view it as a minor 'he's shining a spotlight on me, I don't like it, I better deflect it quick.'

This... is reading a lot into this quote:

I was intending to post more, but it was Saturday night and guests came over. Do you have more examples of me posting in what you consider your optimal scum strategy, or is that it?

Would you read sentence the same way if you weren't already suspecting me? I would call this straight-up misrep, but I'm not sure if you're actually reading the above as sarcastic or not. My intention was to find out whether you were basing your read on me (you later stated that you were speaking more generally with that other paragraph, but this was my impression at the time) on just that one post, or whether you'd actually observed me playing like that throughout the game.

TWO posts later, Leon goes down a similar path. Except he jumps to the obvious conclusion. That Maria(or A50/Gerry) are complaining because they tried to make a kill! Wait, when I said 'he jumps to the obvious conclusion' I meant 'he jumps to the obvious conclusion to manipulate how the other players should think about this'. This isn't anyone's first mafia game, we all know that there is a fallacy where 'scum will complain/compliment night results that aren't what they wanted'. Does this actually happen outside of newbie queues? Most likely not. But it would sure be nice if we associated this specific scumtell to some players.

You associate some pretty manipulative ulterior motives to a pretty minor detail. There's a reason I didn't even mention the tell in my reads list, because I wasn't actually basing my reads on this tell. Quite the opposite, I noted that gerry's reaction to the kill seemed more likely to indicate that he didn't make the kill. The post was half-tongue-in-cheek, more something I wanted to point out than a serious accusation.

The third part of Leon's theme comes from his readslist a few posts later. This one, I know certain players are going to disagree with me (and I argued with mastina already). I never see a readslist and think 'this is coming from town'. I hate things that can appear to be set in stone, but in fact, can be easily and effortlessly manipulated (meta and VCA fall under this category).

Now, that doesn't make the opposite better. Before someone points out 'but T-Bone you go after people for fencesitting!'...these two things are not on the same spectrum. Basically, yes Leon provides a complete readslist, and a sane initial impression should be 'this is good, he's nailed down to a position, because he is genuinely town'. But, reread his read's list on #2444 and #2450. Is he REALLY nailed down to a position on anyone? First, he hedges by saying 'it would not surprise me if everyone flips scum'. This would be a sane position to take, on Day 3 maybe. More on this in a moment, but the massive kill to me, proves why this isn't a sane position. A 'safe' position, sure. Which is funny, because, in his criticism of Chickadee, he accuses her of 'playing safe'. You could use the same paragraph he wrote to describe...Leonshade.

What bothers me most is the hedging on his reads. He hedges on his townreads not named Priscilla, mastina, and Dodge. I know the three of us get the most amount of townreads, but do we honestly deserve it? Because his stated reasons boil down to 'why would scum-them do this?' And the answer to that question is obvious. Compare and contrasts the reasons Priscilla thinks I'm town, and the reasons mastina kinda thinks I'm town, to the reasons Leon says I'm town...and one player's reasonings stand out.

He of course votes Chickadee for playing like he is, but also hedges on LUV, McMenno, PV, and Gerry, and thinks Jiffy replaced someone. Along with MariaR and A50, he's left himself open to justifying himself on nearly everyone's lynch!

There's two separate things here that I want to respond to:

My play being similar to Chickadee's

Obviously I disagree. If I had to point at a key difference between my play and Chickadee's, it's that I've tried to get a comprehensive view of the game and get a read on everyone, which I haven't seen from Chickadee at all. I think Chick has very much just gone for whatever is convenient at the moment, I haven't seen much in the way of original scumhunting from her.

My reads

It's true that I'm not dead-set on many people in this game. When you take into account what type of game this is, why would you expect me to be? There's literally been one townflip in 12 deaths, and two people in KMD and Titus that I was townreading and townleaning, respectively, flipped scum. This is a multiball of lots of small teams. The usual way of scumhunting and reading people doesn't apply here, so it would be either foolish or dishonest to claim too much certainty in most of my townreads. I don't think I'm alone in this, but outside of the future lovers, most of the playerlist hasn't given comprehensive thoughts on everyone in this game.


There are a couple points above that bother me. I did like the fact that you were honest and effectively negated one of your points, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to refer to my play as a "narrative of manipulation", based on what you've presented. Your conclusion also seems at odds with the claim that I haven't been a player until that brief stint of posting a week or so ago. You could accuse me of coasting (which to some extent I admit myself, as you note with that quote of mine), but I don't see what you've presented as manipulative.

[Leonshade]

Leon I already explained my thoughts at the time for all that, just iso me

I'll do that later. My interest for today is still in lynching Chickadee. I'll focus on you when I need to.

[Leonshade]

I do buy LUV being demotivated. I haven't seen scum!LUV but my understanding is that scum!LUV coasts, too. I need to look at the difference between demotivated town!LUV and coasting scum!LUV.

By which I mean, I won't do that now, LUV isn't being lynched today. But it'd be the thing to do if LUV was a viable wagon.

[Leonshade]

but outside of the future lovers, most of the playerlist hasn't given comprehensive thoughts on everyone in this game.

I'd say we're a little past 'future' at this point...... >;D

Is a "mazel tov!" in order?

[Leonshade]

I agree with Maria, quicker days would be nice to have now, but it's going to hurt us in the endgame. I'd say that the long deadlines are anti-town at the moment (due to the apathy and inactivity), but quicker deadlines would be anti-town in the late game (forcing town into panic decisions).

There's something weird about the stagnation of this game. Chickadee has been the leading wagon all day, and the only one that seems actively opposed to lynching her is Almost. So there's one person actively townreading her, one player in LUV who doesn't seem to TR her, but doesn't want to lynch her for out-of-game reasons, and beyond that... there should be more than enough people to lynch Chick.

We have one flipped town and zero mislynches. Chick has been scumread since the start of the game, and will most likely keep being scumread until she's dead. If she's town, she can vengekill. There's minimal reason to resist her lynch unless you actively townread her, and yet this day is stagnant with nominal counterwagons, that aren't really being actively pushed by anyone who isn't almost 50.

Majiffy straight up says in 2770 that Chickadee should die at some point, so why not today? LUV claims to not want to lynch his girlfriend, but he'll have to do that at some point if she's scum, so that's a bad excuse anyway. He claims to be poking at people scumreading him, but that has currently amounted to the bare minimum of "is it PoE" with no actual questioning. And if you're demotivated, why would you want to keep the days slow and the gamestate stagnant?

Priscila and PV have been inactive, so I'm more willing to believe that they're not actively trying to stagnate the day (plus Priscila trying to actually cause discussion, so stagnation doesn't seem to be her motive). Dodge... is holding a guessing game that nobody cares about participating in. Well, recently he did a naked unvote, so he's actively doing nothing at the moment.

So of the people not voting for Chick, I'd like to ask Majiffy, LUV and Dodge why they're not doing so. The best case scenario is another dead scum, the worst case scenario is a mislynch that still provides us a chance for dead scum. What benefit have the three of you gotten from keeping the day going for this long? As I think that overall, it's done more to cause apathy than discussion.

Got an exam tomorrow and I've already spent too long procrastinating, talk to you guys later.

[Leonshade]

I'd say to read my ISO for the Chickadee scumread, but I don't actually have a case for scum!Chick, it's just a read I've had for a long time. I think that her play today has been enough for a scumread. In addition to the stuff gerry already posted, I didn't like Chick threatening Maria with the vengekill due to voting for her.

[Leonshade]

Beyond that, my townreads are stronger than any scumreads at this point. My reads list is in my ISO, the only real changes to it at this point are that I'd be shocked if either mastina or Priscila flipped scum. Even if they would be capable of that level of play as scum, tryharding to that extent only to put yourself at more of a risk of an NK just doesn't make sense from a scum perspective.

[Leonshade]

In before the hammer!

[Leonshade]

I don't have much to add right now, just didn't want to skip two days in a row.

Going to declare intent, but I'll wait for everyone to check in before I do it.

[Leonshade]

It does make a difference. (A lack of the 'Teamed with' would imply a third on the team.)
For what it's worth right now we've got a minimum of two scum left (Pepto was paired with one of Titus/Almost50/LUV; the other two's scumbuddies are all we have left), but the answer to this makes a difference to the maximum number of scum.

Pepto was solo-scum and there's no extra white scum, Titus/Almost50/LUV's partners remain, three scum. Pepto was solo-scum and there's extra white scum, four scum remain. Pepto wasn't solo-scum and wasn't paired with flipped scum yet there's no extra white scum, still four scum just a different color of four. Pepto wasn't solo-scum and wasn't paired with flipped scum and there's extra white scum, there's five scum.

Check the wording of Dodge's role PM, it only refers to a single partner. The only way there's a third member to the White Mafia with that role PM is if it's another player with Pepto's role who joined White Mafia. But that would lead to the question, why wouldn't Pepto and his buddy have picked the same player to join with, creating a mafia superteam?

[Leonshade]

Priscila

I was Priscila's buddy. We had an automatic vote boost if we were on the same wagon, so we had to stay on different wagons for the entire game. It's also why I had to be a non-presence for the last couple days, as the vote boost would show an extra vote even if one of us hammered.

Haven't read all of mastina's wall yet, but I do agree that I don't know what the point of this game is, anymore. Even the illusion of a town kept this game as mafia, now it's just two days of a popularity contest. If Priscila was still alive, we could've at least blitzed one of you and gone for the 50/50 on the NK lottery, but now there's no team left to win for.

VOTE: Winning tie for remaining players

[Leonshade]

By the way, Firescreamer shot Not Chara. Only town kill in the game!

And McMenno being Pepto's partner was a gambit?

[Leonshade]

i'd be ok with a night only thing i guess if you just wanna get a winner. but a tie works

[Leonshade]

Approved.

[Leonshade]

So what happens now?

[Leonshade]

Oh, okay.

Well, I don't care that much anymore, but if the game's still going, I might as well play along. It looks like Maria & Gerry want to bring each other to LYLO, as well as mastina & Ginngie. This makes me the fifth wheel, so I'd like to offer myself as the Joker. If whoever gets the kill tonight leaves me alive, if I get the kill tomorrow, I'll promise to shoot the other member of the opposite "team" so you and your friend get to LYLO together. You get a guaranteed pass to LYLO, and I get my 1/3 chance for bragging rights. Deal?

[Leonshade]

Well I just woke up to a pile of bodies. As well as winning the lottery.

There's a rule about being able to eliminate two people if there's three remaining. But I guess it doesn't apply anymore, since it's just bragging rights. I asked Kuroi for confirmation, just in case.

[Leonshade]

For what it's worth Leonshade I want to kill everyone not-you because someone not-you killed Priscilla, so. <3

I want to avenge Priscila, too, but I believe gerry when he says that he only killed Majiffy. So I guess Priscila is already avenged. Unless you're playing the long con...

Oh. So I forgot to reveal something. Those NPCs. For each one eliminated, your name went into the kill lottery again. With this alone, ones name could go in six extra times.

Huh. Well, I guess this was a bastard game.

Like I basically legit don't understand the mechanic/limitation behind the nightkill.

I just got a PM that says I won, and to choose who dies.

[Leonshade]

Well I want both of you

But if Kuroi says no, I'll probably just flip a coin.

[Leonshade]

Heads or tails?

[Leonshade]

Honestly I'm pretty sure Ginngie was her murderer out of jealousy

Ginngie will remember this.

But yeah, my guess was that Ginngie killed Priscila. Ginngie probably killed Maria and Gerry definitely killed Gin.

Priscila had similar thoughts about you as you did about her, though she actually wanted you to be scum, so that you wouldn't be heartbroken to find out that she was scum. But I shouldn't put words in her mouth, you'll be able to talk soon enough.

I believe your account of the events, I have no reason not to.

I'll just do the coin flip to decide the kill. It's like I'm Two-Face.

[Leonshade]

The official coin flip will be performed with an Austrian 20 cent coin. I don't know where I got this coin.

[Leonshade]

Heads.



Tails.

[Leonshade]

heads

And the coin landed...

Spoiler:

[Leonshade]

I'd have to get one. So if you want to ship me a quarter, I'll do it.

[Leonshade]

Leonshade, why did you shoot mastina... You've betrayed me.

Sorry!

Sorry for lying about not having the kill and shooting Maria as well

My partner dies and I immediately kill her girls, I'm a rabid animal!

[Leonshade]

I really did flip a coin by the way, so mastina only died due to random chance.

Winning these last couple just came down to luck, as I guess the entire game did, but getting to the point also took a lot of planning and manipulation. It was really difficult to get to the end without being on the same wagon as my buddy, but we did it and made it to the final six, Priscila only getting eliminated AFTER everyone was confscum. So in the end, I'll still brag about my bragging rights. I'm also STILL undefeated as scum after returning my hiatus.

Congrats, Leon. You should thank me for having your back though and taking the fall for you when Menno had intended to throw you off the ring.

Ah, so that's what that was?

[Leonshade]

LEON AFTER ALL I'VE DONE FOR YOU....

Sowwy

If it makes you feel any better, I was thinking about shooting mastina until she said she wouldn't shoot me.

[Leonshade]

McMenno

Will you still stick around on the site?

[Leonshade]

Ginngie killed me because of jealousy? My scumbud killed my mason bud... because of jealousy?

-_-

Don't attribute jealousy to me, I was playing to win. With Maria I wanted to take out the player most likely to shoot me. mastina was a coin flip, and I'm glad the coin flipped the way it did.

If it makes you feel any better, I was thinking about shooting mastina until she said she wouldn't shoot me.

THAT WAS BECAUSE I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION YOU WERE THE LIVING WILL OF PRISCILA DAMMIT

She was the only thing holding me back

[Leonshade]

OH NO NEIDHART YOU PUKE IM CASHING IN MY SHOT BEFORE WRESTLEMANIA YOU PLEBE YOOOOOOO JOOOOOOOE

OH IT'S ON LIKE DONKEY KONG!

I keep rolling scum in games against you, I expect you to start the next game calling for a policy on me.